Damian Thompson

We talk to the world's most trained actor, Damian Thompson!

Show Notes

Intro: swiping left on the poor man's John Travolta, wilderness therapy for the 1%, Ashton Kutcher.
Let Me Run This By You: the thing that you're most afraid of is probably not what's gonna getcha.
Interview: We talk to actor Damian Thompson about immigrating from Jamaica, the University of Evansville, the Florida Theatre Conference, stuttering, PAVAC, North Carolina School of the Arts, asking for what you want, how letters of recommendation aren't always what they seem, gatekeeping, theatre school with no acting classes, Pericles, zoom theatre.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):
1 (8s):
I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez,

2 (10s):
And I'm Gina Pulice.

1 (11s):
We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.

2 (15s):
20

3 (16s):
Years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of

1 (20s):
It all. We survive theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet In Chicago or New York? You can just get crazy, but anyway, go ahead. Go ahead, go ahead.

2 (38s):
No, no, no. So now that the poor man's John Travolta has purchased Twitter for $44 billion, will you be deleting your account?

1 (52s):
Yes. I'm getting off only because I, I, I actually, I just, I mean, I think that he is a, he's in many ways a genius. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna fault him on that. There's, there's, but I don't trust what's gonna happen. Like I just don't wanna be a part of the great unraveling in that way. I don't know. It'll probably unravel then come back together and unravel before it finally goes in one direction or the other. Yeah. I'm gonna also, let's be honest, I'm gonna probably use this as an excuse to get off because nobody fucking retweets my shit anyway, so I'm just gonna use it as an excuse.

2 (1m 30s):
Yeah, yeah.

1 (1m 31s):
It just not working for me. I'm not Twitter famous. Nobody gives a fuck. So I'm gonna just shut it down and then maybe TikTok will be our new thing. Right?

2 (1m 40s):
There you go. By the way, 44 billion, I was like trying to, you know how humans really can't conceive of big numbers, and so I'm always trying to find these ways of like making it, you know, somewhat understandable. And it turns out this, a lot of people do this and, and I read an article about how, Oh, by the way, I used to, I realized apropo of this, I was relying on Twitter 100% for my news. Like I had stopped, I, I used to start with the New York Times and then go to Twitter, and then I stopped starting with the New York Times. I would, I would only go to it if there was a link to it in Twitter.

2 (2m 20s):
And so today I start, I did the times again. And, you know, there's a lot of bad things going on that I really didn't know about because I hadn't been, you know, I really hadn't been paying attention to the news, but, okay, so he, for ostensibly speaking, you could end world hunger with 6 billion. You could end United States houselessness with 20 billion and this is 44 billion. Now, when they say these things, like you could end it, I always think like, yeah, but really how? Right. That doesn't seem right because

1 (2m 59s):
They're, they're still, well, there's like, Right, And also you need, you need, you need systems put in place. It's not, but what, with the resources, I think it is important to know like that's how much resources financially it would cost, and it then it would take a whole fuck ton of work. But I do think it's interesting to, and also who comes up with these figures, That's hilarious to me. There's some person being like, You could end Jen, Jen Bosworth Ramirez as problems with, you know, $150. You know, like that kind of a thing. But, Well,

2 (3m 27s):
I think, I think in the case of the thing I was reading, it was like organization, non-governmental organizations who, their mission is to end world hunger or their

1 (3m 38s):
Mission. So they do. Yeah. My guess is the New York Times is really checking their shit out. So Yeah, of course. And they're talking to nonprofits that, that this is their mission, so they know these numbers. Okay. That is crazy as fuck. And he spent 44 billion,

2 (3m 53s):
He spent 44 billion. And that's the other thing about it, it is starting to seem like these, you know, mega billionaires are just kind of bored and looking for something novel. I mean, you know, him and Bezos are trying, trying to outspace each other and, and it's just like, there's no, you know, it's, it's the thing of like, there's no, there's nothing left to vanquish, so let's just, you know, come up with new things. And I think, you know, I wonder if any of them would be interested in like, having a perspective change. Like what if they had to live without a house for some period of time? What if they had to, you know, like, is there a way that we could mandate just sort of the experience of not being them?

1 (4m 43s):
What, Okay, what you're, what you're talking about is like a mix of like outward Bound meets tough love and like prisoner for a day, like reality show for billionaires. And I am also wilderness therapy. They need

2 (4m 57s):
Wilderness therapy.

1 (4m 58s):
Yeah. Well, I'm convinced that like, if you trapped me in an elevator with them for an hour, they might have a perspective change. Only because, or anyone, anyone that's not in their circle. It could be any, Well, it couldn't really be anyone. Cause like, can you imagine them getting trapped with like, I don't, I don't know my weird neighbor, that would not be good. But like, someone who is psychologically minded like that actually cares about the universe and stuff. If they were, if we, I always think of this, I don't know why, but like, let's say Osama Bin Laden was still alive and then he got trapped in an elevator with me and neither of us had weapons, right?

1 (5m 38s):
We just have our minds and our mouths and our hearts and all our bodies. Could we come to, could we change, Could anyone change anyone being trapped in the elevator for a couple hours? I don't know. But it would be interesting to find out. So this is along those same lines, like you put Elon Musk in the woods, but they have to have either a therapist or some kind of guide because left to their own devices, they're gonna fucking try to colonize the woods, right? They're gonna be like, ah, we could, you know, So they need a guide. Who would be their guide? Gina?

2 (6m 12s):
I think it should be you, frankly. No, I think the woods

1 (6m 15s):
Like, I'd be like's,

2 (6m 17s):
Maybe not in the woods. By the way, how long do you think it would take Osama Bin Laden to acknowledge your presence since you are

1 (6m 24s):
A woman? Oh, that's great. Together in an elevator. That is a really good, that is a really good question. Would he just pretend I wasn't there? And I would dance around? I mean,

2 (6m 36s):
I kind of think he would just pretend that you weren't there. Like, like

1 (6m 39s):
Well, that would even give more impetus to get in his space. I would be like, Oh, this is a game now. So then I would try to be like, you know what I would do? Cause I'm a people pleaser. I'd be like, I love your hair. Like, I would be like, Tell me how you got your hair to look. So whatever

2 (6m 56s):
Matter. Matter,

1 (6m 57s):
Right? Or like, I think you have great bone structure. Like I would just come up with the most because that's who I am. So it would either or he would just strangle me that that could be, he could just strike me.

2 (7m 11s):
That's possibility too. I like to think of what if, Cause you know, I get really, when, when I'm around a celebrity, I have sort of the opposite of a fan reaction. I have the reaction of like, I, it's my only job to pretend like I don't know who this person is. So, so sometimes I imagine like, thinking of completely unexpected conversation starters with people like that. Like, did you ever try Atkins diet? Or you know, how, what, how did you have a MySpace? And how long, how long

1 (7m 46s):
Did you, Those are great

2 (7m 48s):
Questions. How think you've been active.

1 (7m 49s):
I think we should have a running list of questions, unexpected questions to ask celebrities in, in closed spaces. You know, like, that's great. Or like, Hey, have you like, just to, like, if you were with a Kardashian, like maybe you could just be like, something completely weird. Like, hey, like, have you have you, Hey Chloe, Courtney, Kristen, whatever the fuck their names are. Have you had a colonoscopy and what was that like? Yes.

2 (8m 19s):
Yeah, exactly. Or just like, what's your favorite type of pen? I heard the Sharpie gel roll.

1 (8m 25s):
Yes. Just like questions that have nothing to do with their brand. You know, like, like that would be great. Nothing about beauty, nothing about fashion, but like hard nosed things. Like,

2 (8m 36s):
Wait, celebrities should pay for experiences like that because I, I think that those people really miss having regular human interactions with people who don't know who they are. Right?

1 (8m 47s):
Well, yeah. And so my, my favorite one that's similar, the reason I do the elevator one is I was once stuck in an elevator with Ashton Kucher for

2 (8m 57s):
Oh

1 (8m 58s):
My, like 20 minutes. Yeah. He came to, to, to visit Nick's office once. And at my job he parked in a really weird floor. Like, you, you, Anyway, he parked on the roof of a 10 story building, right? And we, our parking was like on the first floor. I, I don't know how we ended up up there. But anyway, so my job was to ride with him from the office and then we ended up going all the way down for some reason, cuz I thought he parked in the basement and he really, And then we get all the way down and he's realized, no, I parked on 10. And I'm like, well now we're tuss stuck here with people getting off and on every fucking two minutes. Okay. So, but no one really, not too many people noticed him at a baseball, but I knew who he was because they said, Oh, Ashton Kutcher's coming to the fucking office today.

1 (9m 43s):
Right? So, okay, great. So I'm in the elevator, I'm thinking of things to say. And I realized before he came that he was either from Iowa or Ohio and I, so I said, Go Buckeyes. And he was like, That's the wrong state. And like we, we, we had this like really weird conversation, but I literally couldn't get anything right in the conversation. So I kept saying the wrong thing, but it wasn't uncomfortable for me because I was like, I don't give, at this point, it was probably towards the end of my tenure there. And also like whatever, like I I, he wasn't someone that I was gaga about. If he was, I would've had, I probably would've been really upset, but I was just, I just kept trying to make conversation, but I couldn't get any of the facts right that had to do with his life.

1 (10m 31s):
And so he, it was great, it was a great conversation. Cause he was just like, he wasn't even mad. He was just like, that's the wrong state. And I was like, Oh, well what, what, what is the team? Right? Like it's the Hawkeye, it's this. Yeah. So we did that for like 20 minutes. It was like the worst. But he was, he was nice. He was all right. But yeah, I think they should, I think celebrities should pay to get stuck places with regular people.

2 (10m 55s):
Yeah. I mean like, I just, we all just really need to expand our minds honestly. Like, we think that we are so worldly because information is so readily available. But I'm not worldly, you know, I, I, there is just, I I would say maybe I've experienced like 1% of what life has to offer.

1 (11m 14s):
I agree. Me too. Me too.

0 (11m 16s):
Oh,

1 (11m 20s):
Hey, let me run this by

0 (11m 21s):
You.

1 (11m 27s):
Because here's my thing too. It's like I, I am fascinated by many things. So I'm back in town, back in my home state of California and I've had many adventures, but I am, while I was on the plane, I was thinking about like a lot of things obviously. And we talked on the last, let me run this by you and stuff about my self therapy I do on planes. And then on the way home, I was doing some therapy with myself on the southwest flight. And I thought, I am, I think I was like trying to narrow down like, what am I fascinated by? You know, it's not, cuz it was a lot of murder, right?

1 (12m 7s):
And, and we talked about how now I'm, I'm, I'm a little more like stay away from, I wanna stay away from the like, sort of gore porn of it all. But I am fascinated by fear. Okay? Like the fears of people, the psychology of fear and the psychology of change. And then I was like, Oh, I'll get a PhD. And then I was like, that's a terrible idea. I can't go back to school. But I am fascinated by we need

2 (12m 33s):
To, we need to drill down on what it is that happens to you that makes your mind go to an advanced degree. Like is it when

1 (12m 41s):
You're hungry?

2 (12m 43s):
Is it, when is it when you're tired? Is it when you're lonely?

1 (12m 46s):
Prob probably all the things. But I think it's also, I think what it is, is there's a part of me that's like, oh well, like how can I legitimize whatever I'm really interested in? And then you make money from it or teach it. And I, and I don't, it's like a leap then to going to PhD school, which I'm like, No fucking way am I getting a doctorate. But I am fascinated by the psychology and the a fear itself because I realized, like when I was talking to the vet on the way over the, the vet, vet military vet on the plane ride from LA to Chicago that like, he was like, So you're not afraid to talk to, to public speak.

1 (13m 28s):
I'm like, No dude. That what I am, I have no fear. If you told me President Obama is sitting there and you are gonna go out and give a speech, I would be excited and I would be like, Oh, I hope he thinks I'm cute. Like that's where my mind goes. But I'm not like, Oh I can't do this. I will fail. That doesn't, it's not a barrier that I have set up for myself in my brain for some reason. Now, if you said Jen, you have to be a flight attendant for a week, I think I would shit myself and then refuse. So I'm just fascinated by that beans. That's all. I'm just like really drilling down to like what is the thing that fascinates me?

1 (14m 10s):
And it is people, their fears, what stops them and what, and then how they get over them. And do we ever really get over something, you know, if, are we ever cured from a fear? Right? I don't know.

2 (14m 25s):
Yeah. You know what's interesting? So here's the thing I don't get about you. I don't get what your relationship is to control. I'm a very controlling person. I have to work very, very hard at all times. Basically to manage my out of control sense. Need for control. I have to manage it.

1 (14m 47s):
Yeah. Say more. Can

2 (14m 48s):
You say, I have to manage it?

1 (14m 48s):
Say more. Say more. Because I wanna know what it looks like in, You can use a benign example or not, whatever example you want. Like how does it manifest in a day to day?

2 (14m 60s):
Okay. Like I, yesterday the plan was, this one's going trick or treating with her friend. This one's doing this, this one's doing that. And, and Aaron's job, he asked me what he should do. I said, I'd like you to go as soon as you get off work and check in with this one because she's some place, I have a vague idea of where she is, but I don't know like really precisely. And he came home, he said, Well, he says, Well, could I come home first and like change into warmer clothes? I said, Of course he came home, he kind of like pivots.

2 (15m 42s):
Then he started eating and then he realized he was really hungry. So then he ate kind of a big meal for a long time and then he went up to change. And then when he, and the whole time I'm just like, don't say anything. Don't say anything. Don't

1 (15m 56s):
Say anything. Cause

2 (15m 58s):
Somebody once told me, somebody once told me, You can ask your partner to do a chore or a favor, whatever, but you can't tell them how to do it. Okay. And I'm still of two minds about that because sometimes you need both. Sometimes you need the thing and you need it done in a certain way because you literally cannot do everything yourself. I know, because I've tried. Yeah,

1 (16m 20s):
Me too.

2 (16m 21s):
I was telling myself not to say anything. And then when he came downstairs and started playing with a dog,

1 (16m 27s):
Oh shit. I mean

2 (16m 29s):
I'm just, my, I'm just boiling inside, but I don't want to alienate him, you know, because my intention is actually fine. It's, it's not like I'm controlling for controlling his sake. I'm worried that she's worried. Where is he? I'm worried that the other little kid's mom is going well, is any, are either these parents gonna come over? You know, he doesn't think that way. He doesn't worry about the time. He never worries about the time. I always worry about the time. So I spend a lot of my day just in conversation with myself about like, well, do you wanna be right or do you wanna have a relationship?

2 (17m 9s):
You know, do, yes, it's true that, that he's taking a long time. And yes, it's true, but like, I guess if I was really worried about it, I should have gone over there to follow up with

1 (17m 17s):
The father where she is. I mean, Okay, so, okay, so now I hear what you're saying about control and it is wanting to, you are stopping yourself from like interjecting or reiterating your wants, your needs and your fears with pe. Okay. Okay. So then what don't you understand about me? What is the conundrum?

2 (17m 41s):
You seem like a person who is not hung up on needing control. And I think about fear, especially the fear of flying or fear of heights. I think I, it's not that it's necessarily based, in fact, I just tend to think about those things as fear of a loss of control.

1 (17m 59s):
Sure. I think you're right. I think they are. I I do, I I mean when you were talking about your thing about asking your partner to do something and then not wanting to, and then trying to stop yourself from jumping in. I do that all the time with miles with my husband. So that I, I definitely, that is so, but I don't do it with other people. Like I save it all for him. It's really sad. It's not good and the dog, right? Like I'm the dog, it's not good. So those two bear the brunt of that kind of control now. So I can totally relate to that and wanting to fix, manage, and control those two to a t it doesn't work. It leads to our biggest fights and the major upsets.

1 (18m 42s):
So yes. Now with my sort of phobia fears about flying, I would say flying is the number one. And then the second one is like medical, having my blood pressure taken. Those somehow are about shame and shame and abandonment. So when I'm in a plane, the only thing I've realized that helps me, the only thing that really opens the door to not having a full bone panic attack and never flying again is saying, I will not abandon myself no matter what happens on this plane.

1 (19m 24s):
Because I feel my parents abandoned me. My family abandoned me when I was young. And then not only was I abandoned, I felt whether it was true or not, I felt shamed about my whole existence. Right? So like the blood pressure thing is, is so clear. It's like your blood pressure's too high because you're bad, you're fat and you're, you could have avoided this. Okay, easy peasy, shame is right there for flying. It's like, what's wrong with you that you are so weak that you, that you can't handle flying in an airplane. So that, those are my, that is where that goes. So for me it's about shame, abandonment, and the only way out is to say, okay, okay, so I'm fat and bad and wrong and terrible, but I will not abandon myself the way I, and it has taken me so long to get to the point where I won't abandon myself even in emotionally in those situations.

1 (20m 26s):
That's it. So

2 (20m 27s):
Would it be fair to say that your really, where like the emotional valances for you right now with the whole flying thing is more about your, your shame about the fear than it is about the fear itself? Like, or, or are you really spending a, a long time imagining scenarios in which the plane

1 (20m 45s):
Is gonna crash? No, it's morphed. So that was was like how it got me. That's how I got to thinking about like how fear changes and how we move through it. No, no, I would say I spend now about 20% on, oh my god, we're gonna crash. Like some weird shit's gonna happen and the engine's gonna explode or whatever birds are gonna fly in. But that's like 20% and it's called a bird strike, by the way. Which is hilarious to me for some reason that, that is the technical name for when birds fly in a bird strike. Let me tell you something, the birds are not striking. They're just trying to fucking fly. And we are striking them like, what the fuck? Anyway, like, leave the birds alone.

1 (21m 27s):
Fuck. But anyway, so it's 80% beans thinking about my what is yes, my yeah, you are right. The emotional juice is what is wrong with me that I cannot do this safe as hell task that everybody else does. And I have to cry on an air, I just cry on an airplane. I don't moan, I don't scream. I silently cry while I look out the window and do therapy with myself. That is what I do. And there's a part of me that's like, why do I have to do this? But that's what I have to do to get through a flight. So it's the truth,

2 (22m 3s):
Honestly, honestly, we, we really all should be doing that because flying is horrible and horrible things that we don't deal with and push away. Yeah, it's, you have to have that as a coping mechanism. But when all you ever do is push the horrible things away, it seeps into other places and you're coping in ways that you didn't even realize that what, what it is that you're coping for. If we could all sit there and face the reality that it sucks to fly, it is somewhat dangerous. It's, you know, it's dirty and expensive and unpredictable and then we just spent the entire time like dealing with our own feelings about that. Maybe airports wouldn't be such stressful places, you know, maybe there wouldn't be this.

2 (22m 47s):
Cuz what I just feel is so pervasive is in the public sphere, I feel like we're all so acclimated now to having these highly curated personal spheres that when we get into the public sphere now, it's like we're just so put out by having to deal with

1 (23m 4s):
People and

2 (23m 5s):
Their shit, right? Like it's the road rage, it's the bad behavior at restaurants, at airports, and you know, in public places.

1 (23m 14s):
It is so true. Beans. The guy next, and this, I mentioned this a little bit about the guy wearing the Harvard sweatshirt on the flight over like the, the, the flight attendant came by and said, Hey, you need to put your seat up for takeoff. The guy just started shaking his head and getting angry. Now lemme tell you like, why, what are you doing that for? That's one, it's her job. Two, it's just part of the deal. But he just had to have a comment on it. And I was like, and he was, the guy later said it, it's not ideal, but nobody asked me. And, and I'm like, but

2 (23m 46s):
Nobody asked me. Okay, well, you know, we're just so entitled. We just feel so entitled to have the experience be exactly what we paid for. And it's, you know, it's kind of the live capitalism that they've sold us. Like if you have enough money, you can have a perfect life. You can have everything be free of hassle. Aaron has this patient who he says their biggest thing in life is always like, I wanna hassle-free existence.

1 (24m 12s):
Oh my God, oh

2 (24m 13s):
My god, I'm really upfront about it. Saying like, no, no, no, I want my life to be hassle-free. So, and of course what's happened over the years is that his life has gotten smaller and smaller because you really, you can't even be in your own house by yourself without having a

1 (24m 28s):
Hassle. Anyway, so speaking,

2 (24m 29s):
Speaking of bird strikes, I know you were into a thing for a while where you loved watching like rollercoaster videos. Have you seen, I don't know if it's there's one, but the one or a one where the guy,

1 (24m 48s):
Oh, I can't wait. I know, I don't know what this is, but I'm excited. Gina is just cracking up silently. Okay, what, who is he doing?

2 (24m 59s):
The guy is screaming going at the top of the rollercoaster and then this bird just flying on to the, it's just, and the look on his face. I mean imagine being at the apex of terror on a rollercoaster and having a bird just stuck to your neck in midflight feathers going into your mouth. Like, I mean your brain. There's just no way to comprehend that while you're in

1 (25m 27s):
The, you know, what of

2 (25m 28s):
It.

1 (25m 29s):
I think that that is such a good metaphor for life. It's like there's no way this could get worse and then a fucking bird flies in your mouth and attaches itself to your neck while you're on a scariest shit rollercoaster.

2 (25m 43s):
Or that or that. Like, the thing that you're so afraid of, I thing that you're really focused on is not the thing that takes you out.

1 (25m 51s):
The thing right is not the, it's the least, It's actually the least to your fucking worries. They're like, by the way, like if you could see your destiny, they're like, you're so afraid to fly. But actually what's gonna happen is like a fucking suitcase is gonna fall on your head and break your neck. That's and like that would so be, and then you're in heaven or wherever the afterlife going. My fucking ass was so dumb. I thought it was gonna be this.

2 (26m 27s):
Today

3 (26m 28s):
On the podcast we are talking to Damien Thompson. Damien Thompson is the first person I've ever met who not only went to theater school for grad school, not only went to theater school for undergrad, not only went to theater school for high school, but he also went to theater school for junior high. I have never met a person who is as trained as Damian Thompson. Plus he was a delight to talk to. So please enjoy our conversation with Damien Thompson.

2 (26m 59s):
Yes. So congratulations Damien Thompson. You survive two theater schools.

4 (27m 7s):
Yes. Funny.

2 (27m 9s):
We should make a little club and have little pins. Cause you I think there's a

1 (27m 14s):
Double winners.

2 (27m 15s):
Yeah, Double double winners. Yeah, double doubles, Double demons. If you went to DePaul, but I don't think you did. So you're in a club. We haven't had that many people who have BFAs and MFAs, so we wanna hear all about it. You did your BFA in Indiana?

4 (27m 32s):
Yes, the university of,

1 (27m 33s):
Okay, so wait a minute, wait a minute. I, I need, I have questions. So I've researched you because I'm no dummy and you, you are, you were born in Jamaica or am

4 (27m 44s):
I making, was that up? I was in Jamaica, yeah.

1 (27m 47s):
Ok. And then

4 (27m 47s):
You moved to Miami. To Miami,

1 (27m 49s):
Is that right? Ok. What, How the hell did you end up

4 (27m 53s):
In Oh god. You know what I mean? To be honest, I had never heard of the school. I'm gonna be blunt, I, you know, coming from an east coast, I, I always tell people like east coast folks, we tend to wanna stay on the east coast, right? Like all the schools that we think of are like the East coast. I think the furthest middle we'll go is like, oh, maybe Carnegie Mellon or something, right? So maybe, but growing up I think like everyone wanted to go to Julliard, North Carolina School of the Yards, you know, SUNY purchase, like these are all the schools like on the east coast, right? And if you were gonna stay in Florida, you wanted to go to Florida State.

4 (28m 34s):
So I auditioned for North Carolina School of the Arts and I got in and it was like mind blowing because at that time they had like one black guy out 50 states. So it was like, oh my god, I'm the chosen black guy. I

1 (28m 50s):
Can I just tell you something that I dated, the other chosen there named Davis. He went there and he was the only black dude in his class. He's way older than you. But anyway,

4 (29m 4s):
Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, like when, when, when, when people's like, well how, how do you know that you were the only black? I was like, because I went to visit and in each grade there was one. So I was like, Oh, that's me. Great. So I was, That is

2 (29m 17s):
So, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but that is so sad and it does really seem like every time we have a black guest, that is their story. Like, Toman was the first person in his MFA program. Like, I'm real, I'm real eager for this first thing to, to be done with. And it like, it should have been 30 years ago. But anyway,

4 (29m 37s):
I mean, I, I

2 (29m 38s):
Digress.

4 (29m 39s):
I feel like a lot of things have changed. You know, like I, I, I look now and I mean I'm just gonna be blunt, I was like, if you're a straight white guy now it's the, it's, that's the hard thing now. Cause I feel like most programs are trying to rectify the mistakes of the past. Right. But back then, that was it. So I was like set on, on going there. I had a really great ride, although it was, you know, you're out of state so that always tacks on a little bit of 12 to 15,000 extra. But I got really great scholarships and I was set going and then I was doing the Florida Theater Conference and we had some schools that we auditioned for and the University of Evansville there.

4 (30m 21s):
And I wasn't able to go into the callback cuz I was doing a show. And my teacher went and my teacher went and represented me and then she came back and she's like, I really think you should check this school, this school out, you know? And

1 (30m 35s):
Wait a minute, what did she do? Like, I cannot imagine. So this

4 (30m 40s):
Is school. Yeah. I mean I did go to a performing arts high school. Yeah,

1 (30m 43s):
Yeah, yeah. Ok. Cause I was gonna say my high school teacher was like convicted of being a pedophile and an asshole. So he did not represent us in any way other than that. So, Okay, so so did you love she

4 (30m 55s):
Loved you was so backstory. When I came here, I was put in like a speech, a speech class, and it was so traumatic and kind of jarring that I started to stutter and I stuttered like every other word. So like, it was like, Hi, my name is Damian, right? And when I was in sixth grade, I did this exploratory wheel thing where it was like nine weeks of computers, nine weeks of theater, nine weeds of art. And when I got to theater, they had us do like the Martin Luther King speech at some point. And like apparently I got up in front of the class and I spoke and did the whole thing and I didn't stutter.

4 (31m 36s):
And my teacher was like, Oh my God, you didn't study the entire time. And I was like, Oh. And she's like, I think you should like try out for the performing art school here. It'd be good for you. And I did. And I, you know, she told me later that she helped me get in. Right. I was like, thank you. And then, yeah, so I got in and I went to the performing arts middle school middle and then went on

1 (32m 1s):
There are

4 (32m 3s):
Performing arts elementary school that is Oh yeah. I was behind a game. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

1 (32m 10s):
I wanna go, I wanna go back, but no, I can't. But, but ok. So you, you went to this performing, you went to the performing arts Middle

4 (32m 17s):
School and she was my teacher then. And then ironically, when I was transferring to the high school, there were two high schools, New World School of the Arts and Mayman Northwestern Performing Individual Arts Center, which is the Payback program. And I went

1 (32m 35s):
Wait, what? Wait, Payback program.

4 (32m 37s):
Payback Performing and Visual Arts and

1 (32m 40s):
Yeah. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Pay that. I was like, payback. We got paid for something nice. Oh, oh, ok. So wait a minute. There are two performing arts high

4 (32m 50s):
School in Miami. There's, there's more now. Like there's Michael Crop now there's, there's, yeah, but back then it was two, and I remembered when the third came out and so she transferred from the middle school to the high school that I went to the same year ironically. Like, it was like not in the cars, it just kind of happened. And so I ended up having her for six years and it was literally life changing, like Right.

1 (33m 17s):
So she, yeah. Right. Like we talk a lot about on this podcast, the, the, the essential like wonder and glorious of having mentors and teachers that actually champion us. So she must have seen something in you and you must have seen something in her and you were able to, I wonder if it was Iron, did she really, did she switch on purpose? Because I would be the kinda teacher that would switch just

4 (33m 42s):
To be with No, no, no. I think, to be honest, it's, it, it was like the high school program that I went to. We were like the underdogs, right? Like the other performing arts school had more money. They had, you know, they were based downtown and so they wanted, the city wanted to up the stature of the other school. And so they asked her to transfer, she said no and they transferred her anyway. So she found out, Yeah, she found out like late in the game that she was being transferred. So it wasn't intentional, but it was literally like seren serendipitous.

1 (34m 20s):
But it was

4 (34m 21s):
Intentional, if

1 (34m 22s):
You know what I mean.

4 (34m 24s):
Yes.

2 (34m 24s):
And, and now, now, now that you've told us that you went to performing Arts Junior High, I can say we have definitely never had somebody who went from middle school to graduate school, which actually makes you the most qualified person I've ever talked to, to comment on the theater school experience. So I'm so eager to hear everything about it. Go ahead and continue your

4 (34m 46s):
Story. Yeah. So then, yeah, so then we trans transferred there grade, grade grade. So she went and represented me and came back and was like, You should check this school, the school out. And I was like, okay. You know, in the back of my head I'm like, I'm gonna North Carolina School of the Arts, you know? And, and what was interesting was that even for my audition for North Carolina School of the Arts, I think I walked into SUNY purchase prior to my audition to use SUNY purchase as like a warmup audition. Cause I was like, I want the school so much, I can't just like go in. I have to like go and do it with for the other school and get the the bad vibes out.

4 (35m 29s):
Right. And then went in and blah, blah blah. But so then I, I reached out to Evansville and I was like, Hey, you know, I'm sorry I missed you guys, blah blah blah. And so they flew me up with like a group of students. Yeah. At the time they flew us into Louisville, Kentucky and then drive us the hour and a half to Evansville and basically gave us a tour. The whole school we got to stay with. Like, we had like, you know, like perspectives that, you know, would like take care of us. And mine was Regina Wesley. And I was like so ecstatic. I was like, she was so cool. She was like, you know, chill, relaxed and kind of like a star, but in the most down to earth way.

4 (36m 16s):
Right. And I mean, I went, I auditioned again for the rest of the faculty. They spoke to me and then I, I mean I pretty much knew I had gotten just by how they were speaking to me. And to be honest, I didn't care. Cause I was like, I'm, I already got into arts, but

1 (36m 35s):
Right. Like, here's the deal, here's the deal. Like, you knew. So I feel like there's so many things to unpack here, but I will just comment that like, what sticks out to me is that like, wouldn't it be great if we all felt like we belonged someplace? And so then we could explore other options to see maybe we really belong someplace else. So I love that you went in there, not like freaked out, not like, just kind of like checking it out. So you went and what did, besides your, you know, your sort of student mentor that you met there, that was like a star. Okay. What made

4 (37m 9s):
You go? I saw a production of All Wilderness and I was blown away. I was like, wow. I, every single actor was amazing. The show was beautiful, the theater was beautiful, beautiful. There was such a sense of community, you know, like she was walking down the hall, she would, you know, hey, to the tech people, to the stage hands. Like, it was just like no one had egos, Right? It was like everyone was really there for each other and was trying to do, like, trying to put on a good show.

1 (37m 43s):
Yeah. And you're reminding me that like there's something about like, we thought we were the shit cuz we went to a theater conservatory in Chicago. Or at least I did. But like, here's the thing about being an underdog situation is that it's always, now look it Evansville maybe not an underdog anymore, but like at the time, maybe it was an underdog situation. And the thing about underdogs is the, the ego that part of the sort of entitled shit a lot of times gets weeded out when you're an underdog. And so you can actually just do the

4 (38m 14s):
Work. No, I do, I do, but I will correct you a little bit. Evansville was not an underdog back then that, this is what's interesting. I know I, what's interesting was like, I just didn't know about the program and, and I don't think a lot of people did, but when you looked at how many people audition and the acceptance rate and the reason why they, they're so good, right? When the people are so, you know, kind of community oriented is that's how they were vetted. Like the, the, the school had like some ridiculous percentage of like 90% of the people were like valedictorians of their high high school. Like every theater person had like an academic scholarship also.

4 (38m 54s):
Like, it was kind of a weird, like, we're gonna go out and, and search and find people and bring them to this kinda guy.

1 (39m 1s):
So it was like super intentional the way they created the ensemble. But how did they keep it a secret? And I mean, I guess you're a lot younger than, than us. Like, I was like, why the fuck didn't I go there? But like, well I wasn't the that's probably why, but that's amazing.

4 (39m 17s):
Yeah, I think that, I mean, to, to be honest, I just, I I think it just wasn't as well known on the, on the east Coast, right? The east and the, the west, west coast, a lot of people came from Texas. They, their, their competitors were like Webster and opening college and CCM and you know, like that was like, they would go against those people for students. But yeah, so after like, I mean that experience and like, I met like some engineering friends, some soccer player friends that to this day I'm still friends, friends with. And for me it was being able to be in so many different arenas, right?

4 (40m 0s):
So many groups and everyone's still supporting each other. Like, I had like soccer players coming to my shows, you know, fraternities coming to my shows. I was like an honorary like SAE guy. Like, it was like, everyone has to leave except for the SAEs and Damien, I was like, Oh, thank you guys. You know, like, so it was like, it was just like one of those experiences. And to be honest, when I went and visited North Carolina School of the Arts, like no shade, it was just like so high brow that like, I, I just didn't feel one, you know, I

2 (40m 37s):
I I know it's, I know exactly what you're talking about. It's, it's this thing. And I think it's actually a, a bad trap for some programs that they get into. They become so esteemed that they, everybody starts kind of resting on their prestigious reputation. And I don't know, I didn't go to Yale, so I don't know if it deserves the hype or not, but I do, I have heard of that, you know, happening and then it's something that they have to really work actively against. And as Bo was saying earlier, the underdogs, even though Evansville wasn't, but the, let's say the, you know, not the Yale and not the Julliard. I mean that's pretty much what its right. Like when we were coming up as like, well there's Yale and there's Juilliard and there's fish, and then there's everything else, right?

2 (41m 23s):
So that, that's how it, that's how it, it felt to me. So you were smart to want to get in on something that wasn't, you know, where, where you were gonna be the focus and not the school's reputation.

4 (41m 36s):
Yeah. Yeah. I just, I mean, you know, they were nice, you know, they gave money. They, but it was just like, I mean, even my parents were there and my mom was sitting down and the head of the school like looked at her and I know it was a joke, but it just didn't sit right with me. Well, he looked at her and he goes, We think that Damien is talented. Do you think he's talented? And then I'm sitting there like, and then my mom is kind of like, she doesn't know what to say and I'm like, this is awkward.

1 (42m 7s):
It's sinister. There's something. And about it, it's like, is this a trick

4 (42m 14s):
Question? Yeah. I dunno, maybe is she gonna support me? I was like, well we came all the way to North Carolina. Like here we're right.

1 (42m 21s):
Yeah. That's some dumb, like vetting weird

4 (42m 24s):
Shit knows what that is. I mean, you know, I think my path would probably have been a little different either way. But I, I'm glad with the path that I, I chose and yeah, so I ended up going to Evansville and you know, got a scholarship and everything. I remember like my funny story about a scholarship because I was like a scholarship theme at that age. Like I applied for everything outside of the school. I applied to everything through the school. They sent me my package and it came and it was like, I had a Martin Luther King scholarship that was like $500. And I called the school and I was like, I see that I have a Martin Luther King scholarship here.

4 (43m 4s):
And they're like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's our way of, you know, it's for diversity, you know, blah blah. And I was like, Oh, that's so cool. And I was like, it's $500. And she goes, Yeah. And I was like, I think Martin Luther King did a little bit more than 500, don't you? Yes. And she was like, ga like, just like, okay. And so they added like an extra thousand, it was like 1,500. The, but what was ing is that when they give you the financial packet, like say they give you 20,000, right? If you, if they change it, normally they just change the name, but it's still 20,000. Right. But because they had already awarded me the package, say they awarded 20,000 already when I asked for more, they couldn't just be like, Oh, we're gonna take money from here and just rename it this and you still have 20,000.

4 (43m 54s):
They had to go up. So I had, I literally got an extra thousand added onto it just cause

2 (43m 59s):
Okay. That's very bold. And, and not everybody, not every young person would have had the tenacity to do that. So does this mean like you've been fearless since day one or is this something you really cultivated over time?

4 (44m 14s):
No, I just feel like, I mean, you know, I, I think in my life I've always asked for the things that I wanted, whether I got it or not. Like I, I, I had a friend and I used the term loosely friend, I would say coworker once that got really angry at me for no reason. And I, I was like, she was very like, you know, she was just in a mode one day and I was like, What the fuck is going, going on? Right? Sorry for cursing. And, and, and she was just like, I mean, you just get like everything you want. Like why do you think that you're so special? And I was like, Oh wow. Oh, oh wow. I was like, no, I literally asked for the things that I want and I don't get everything that I want, but I get a lot of what I want because I ask for it.

4 (44m 55s):
And most times,

1 (44m 57s):
Well I think that, that, that's like, so I'm sort of like looking at the factors about what make artists successful and a lot of it yes, is luck and, but I think the thing that people have and talent, but the thing that a lot of people that are able to do the work in this field, in the entertainment industry, whether it's stage or screen or whatever, are people that fucking ask for what they want in a way that is clear and not vague and very specific. So I was like someone who was like, Oh, like I'd love to like, you know, have a meeting with you. No. Like, and people are like, No, no, you say like, I really am interested in, in working in this field, can you, can you help me get a job?

1 (45m 43s):
Versus this vague bullshit. So you asked for a specific thing and you got it. And look, people who are afraid to do that are gonna like fight and fault with that because they wish they could do it. It's like, no, you two have a mouse, you have a

4 (45m 56s):
Mouth. Yeah. And it's, I mean, the worst thing that they'll say is no, right? Like I, I mean I've used that model throughout my entire career where before I even had an agent, I would like email casting directors, I'd email writers, I'd email the artistic director, I'd email the director, I'd email the costume person, I'd be like, Oh my god, Lisa, I know that we worked, you know, together, blah blah, see that you're working on this show. I would like to go in for this part. Do you, could you like pass myself on to the artistic director and they'll be yes or no, Right? Most times it would be yes because it's like how many people actually ask, not a lot. So I was like, great,

2 (46m 35s):
You are my hero. I'll say that a jerk, you're my hero. I wish, I wish I had that. You know, because when you say it, it sounds so straightforward. You, there's an, there is something that you want and then you find a person who might be able to give it to you and then you ask them on the, on the face of it, it sounds so straightforward. I don't necessarily understand why so many of us just don't even try, you know, to, to take that first step. So kudos to you.

4 (47m 2s):
Well I think it's the, i it's the idea that the no means something to you like, or means something about you. You know, like they're saying no because they don't, they don't think you're talented or something where it's like they're saying no cause they probably have someone that they're doing, you know, someone else that that

1 (47m 19s):
Or whatever. Like it doesn't, I think the ability to not take shit personally is what is what. And I think, and I don't know if I'm right, but both Gina and I, you know, are former therapists. So my therapist brain goes, Okay, here's a human that that came to this country from another place who had a stutter, who has probably heard all kinds of horrible shit. So like the costume designer potentially saying no to pass, pass their stuff along is probably not gonna break them. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's probably something has been built not, not out necessity that is a little more tough for good or

4 (48m 1s):
For bad, you know what I mean? Like, you, you, oh God, you just hit, you hit a moment for me. Like I'm, you em emotional, you, you hit a moment about the, you know, the coming to this country and you know, going after the things that you want and all that. And the, the speech thing for me was, you know, like, to be honest, when when I got contacted for this interview and I was looking, you asked for pictures I think, and I was scrolling back and I was like, God, I've done a lot. Like just in my life I've been, you know, a lot of places and met a lot of people and, and I, you know, I was like theater school and I had like a few things that jumped to mind when you were talking about it and when you said, you know, going through that trial and tribulations, right?

4 (48m 53s):
Like I, I had a a, a moment in my undergrad and it was like, it was towards the end of my undergrad when I was auditioning for graduate school. And I, I took a year off in between like, you know, like I think senior year I auditioned like everyone else. I just felt like I was on this train where I was gonna go, you know, I do school and then I'm gonna, you know, middle school, high school, college, you know, graduate school. And so I took a year off and worked with the Pennsylvania Shakespeare to just make sure that this is what I really wanted to do. But that being said, the recommendation letters that we got senior year, you know, they seal them, they stamp them so you can't open them.

4 (49m 38s):
Right? And I had an extra one and I opened it and I looked at it and that was for me, you know, they say sometimes success is based on two things, right? Like you're one trying to prove someone wrong. Right? Or you've been just like, you have what whatever trauma you used to fuel you to propel you. And for me that letter was a rocket fuel for me. I opened that letter and keep in mind, like I had been called back to JU U C S D. Yes.

1 (50m 18s):
This is for your graduate school from the mfa and these are recommendation letters from your,

4 (50m 24s):
From your undergrad professors. Ok. And I opened one and it dealt with my speech, which is a very sensible sensitive thing for a lot of people and especially for me. Cuz I came from another country and I was in speech classes and I was stuttering, you know, all this kinda stuff. And at that point in school I had conquered stuttering on stage. It was still in my mind at, at times I took a class where like a cold reading was like the, where it would come out the the most. And I took a class one semester where I had to read, it was like a three times a week. I had to read every single day in front of the class. I told my professor that like I wasn't gonna like prep for the class, I was just gonna try to do it, you know, cold reading it and explain what my issue was and what I was working on and blah blah.

4 (51m 11s):
And it was a nightmare, you know, starting, it was a nightmare. Like I would get up there, literally turn beat red. This girl was like, I saw the, the redness from your neck go all the way in your face. And I'm like trembling, right? And saw all this work or whatever. And I get to see in the year and I think I've gotten, you know, like I've, you know, I don't have a huge island accent. It's like a little bit there, you know, the stuttering is under control, you know, like I'm put all the work in and I opened this letter and it says, Damien has severe speech issues. And I was like, Wow, wow.

4 (51m 55s):
And, and

1 (51m 56s):
Wait, okay wait, does the letter, I just have to go back, did the letter like open with that shit? Or

4 (52m 3s):
It was like, you know, Damien would be a great candidate for your program. You know, he's hard working, da da da da. And he also has severe speech issues. And I was just thinking to myself, I was like, I don't think I have severe speech issues, right? And I was like thinking, I'm like, with this recommendation letter, somehow I was like, call back to so many of these schools. I was like, why would I have severe speech issues if I'm being called back to like, you know,

1 (52m 37s):
Well here's my problem with this on so many levels, this is a fucking recommendation letter. This is not a beware letter. Also, why do they need to know why? What is, See here's my problem with this is like, I wanna know the intention of the person writing the letter. What is the intention of getting that information to Julliard, Yale, whatever, What is the intention? Because I have serious doubts about the need for that information. It would be one thing if his like Damien has severe problems communicating with other human beings and emotionally connecting on stage whatever.

1 (53m 22s):
But a severe speech, speech issues is actually not what its, and oh my also,

4 (53m 30s):
And

1 (53m 30s):
Also my God,

4 (53m 32s):
Wouldn't that be something that you would notice in an audition if it was severe? Wouldn't that be the first thing that you notice? Like if I'm talking to you now and you, and you're like, has a speech issue, you'd, you'd be like, Wow, something's kind of off with him. Right? So,

1 (53m 48s):
But, and also, and also it's, it's also, it's also something that is not indicative of any kind of talent. And I understand that they're talking about the instrument that is the body, but I am not aware of any person with a speech issue whose performance was actually, anyway, I have so many things say, but go ahead. So you opened

4 (54m 14s):
This? I opened, yeah. And you know, it took me a while. Like, I mean, you know, clearly I'm even now like, it just, you know, it, it still hits a little bit like in my head. Like, God, I had to overcome that, that garbage right? Like that when I thought that I had done so much up until that point. Right?

1 (54m 34s):
Dude, it is heartbreaking and it is also infuriating. And the thing that I can relate to it is I once had a psychiatrist who, a new psychiatrist who had gotten notes from my old psychiatrist and literally she read them to me. She said, Oh, Dr. Altman told me all about you severely overweight with severe food issues. And I was like, I didn't think I was that over What it, it flowed. Yeah, it was devastating because I thought, oh, I thought I was worth something. That's literally, and I guess I

2 (55m 11s):
Wasn't, I wanna say something about recommendation letters. If youre a person who's right a recommendation letter, you don't think that you can honestly, and they why this person needs to get into that program or get that scholarship or whatever it is, you politely decline to write the letter a b you send a copy of what you've written to that person via email or whatever, not the official copy. And because, you know, maybe they don't wanna include your letter. Maybe you have a choice, you had an extra one.

2 (55m 51s):
You know, maybe somebody has 10 letters and they wanna pick the, you know, the three best ones. This is gatekeeping. This is exactly the way in which gatekeeping keeps the power structure as it is. And I, I'm, I'm really sorry that happened to you. It didn't matter cuz you got in, but it, it does enr me.

4 (56m 13s):
It's really, I mean, I mean this is, you know, I look back, I mean, I, I, I got on a c t with a full ride and I'm like, this is, I mean, it was just the insanity of it. And then the part of me is like, like you said, what is the intention? You know? And I think that's what I, I've never really been able to process why I haven't really moved on as much like I've moved on. But it still stings. And I think of course it's because now that you just said it, it's what is the intention? Because it's, it, it's not like, I mean, someone's gonna be able to see it if it's that severe. Right. And I'm wondering if a, a part of that is covering your lack of whatever you thought you should have done as a teacher, but you didn't do right.

4 (56m 54s):
Or, or Correct. That, that's the only thing that I could think of. Like,

1 (56m 59s):
Well, I, I mean, I think it is so psychologically tied to projection on their part. So when I, I actually went back and confronted my new psychiatrist. I said, First of all, why would you read that to me? And why didn't you check it out beforehand? And, and, and what went on? And she said, I'm so sorry. I was so nervous. You were, so this is what she said. You were so powerful. And so literally she said, I thought you were so stunningly beautiful that I got perplexed and grabbed the piece of paper and like, and like read it. And a anyway, it turned out to be. But I, I, I think that people don't understand the way that their words literally can, can floor people and can and can break people without thinking twice about it.

1 (57m 52s):
And it usually stems from their own nervousness and inability to be honest about what is going on with them. But that is not an excuse to like, to break someone's soul. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, you can't do that. So, I'm sorry, but you got in, you were like, you know, did you ever, did you ever confront the teacher?

4 (58m 11s):
No. You were like, I'm done outta here. No, I was like, I mean, you know, and it's like I still, they did a lot. I mean, they did a lot of good stuff. Like I I, it's not like they were a bad teacher by any means. And I think that's again why it, for me just came outta nowhere. Cause I was like, I never felt that way. I never felt like they told me that. I never felt like they treated me that way. And so it was just like, I don't know, you know, you, you think that you rose up to this thing and then it's like, okay. Which is Right. Pretty interesting.

1 (58m 43s):
The, and the other thing is, it's just so interesting that I have to point out is that all they needed to do was change one letter. So you, he could, he or she, or they could have put d had severe speech. It's one fucking letter that needed to be changed. If, if they even put, Damian had severe speech issue when she overcame now the diligence and hard work. And that is why it should be anyway. It's just, So, it's one letter you dumb

4 (59m 12s):
Motherfuckers. No, I, No, I feel you. Or just like, I mean like, I even comment on it like they will, they will hear it. This is their job. I mean for like Ju Ard you had to read like all this speech stuff in front of them and do the sounds. And like even for Delaware, they had us like, it was an hour and a half like acrobatic audition. It was like you, they heard, they knew if you were on pitch all pitch. Right.

1 (59m 35s):
No. Right, right. But it, it's like words. Yeah. You clearly, it clearly did not stop you from living your dream, but it certainly was not helpful. So, okay. So then how the heck did you pick

4 (59m 50s):
Delaware? So, true story my freshman year. Cause Delaware accepts a class every four years. Right? It's a three year pro program. And then the, and then the fourth year they go around and they try to find people they see, see people in shows or you know, people that are graduating and bring, bring them in. My freshman year, there was an actress by the name of Marni Young who I looked up to. And I think she's amazing. She was like very classically, you know, very into the classical world. I wanted to be in the classical world because I knew it was a way of like not playing gangsters and you know, crooks and stuff. And I could play some royalty and some princes and you know, And so like I knew that that was gonna be an avenue for me to expand my, my reach and work workability.

4 (1h 0m 42s):
And so I was, I looked up to to to her and she wanted to go to Yale and she wanted to go to Delaware, but Delaware was her number one choice. She was prepping for it the entire year. We talked about it. I had never heard of the program. She's like, Oh my god, they build these like, you know, classical stage stars. And I was like, Oh, it looks amazing. And so she went and auditioned when it came time and she said it went well. She told me about the callback process and everything and I was like living my dreams through her. Right. And then I remember one day it was a sunny day, we're walking across campus and I see Marni coming and she's bawling and I'm like, Oh my God, what's, what's, what's happening?

4 (1h 1m 23s):
And she's like, I got my Delaware rejection letter. And I was like, Damn. And I was like, But you're so good. You're, so I was like, what the hell? And then like two weeks later she got into Yale. And so I was like, I really to go Delaware. Cause I, I was like, Damn, Marty didn't get into Delaware, but she got into Yale. Damn, I really gotta get in Delaware. So then like, so when I got to my senior year, I, I, I had that year that I had to wait, right? So when I chose to not go straight to graduate school, I took that year off. A part of it was like, Oh, I'm gonna go and audition for Delaware in the program that I could did.

4 (1h 2m 5s):
And then I did. And again, it's like one of those things where you just know when you know, you know, like I met the faculty, like it, you know, the, the audition was like, like I said, an hour and a half. It was like you had to do pushups, you had to hold your breath and walk across a thing. You had to sing a certain song and repeat with what they tell you. You, they showed you a series of like a minute of move movement. You had to look at it twice and recreate it. Like there were like all these things. And I was like, Oh my God, this is like a bootcamp and I love it. And then after that they fly you in and they put you up and they, you know, you take classes with the people and so it was like this whole gauntlet of thing that you're running.

4 (1h 2m 47s):
And I, I just knew, I knew that that's where I wanted to go. And I turned down all the other schools and I got in some pretty good schools that, that year.

1 (1h 2m 57s):
Okay. Can you tell us where you got in because

4 (1h 2m 59s):
Of how you feel? I got into, I got into the Oslo at Florida State. I got into u Oh shit, that's, I a, like I said with ride, Oh shit I was listed for. So I'm bothered. That's, Yeah. But also, that's what I'm saying. All my, all my classmates was like, don't audition for Juilliard. It's gonna be a waste of time. I was happy, like when I was like, at least I'm witnessing and yeah, I mean a few things that, a few other places and stuff. But it was nice. It was nice to have choices. I think it was like Chapel Hill.

4 (1h 3m 39s):
I also got in and got a medical ride.

1 (1h 3m 41s):
Yeah, that's a great school. I, I think that what I'm realizing too is that you're making me see, which is really interesting for like being a TV writer too, is like, I think that we do much better when we create ensembles based on what we are looking for as a group to proceed. Ra a cast rather than this person's beautiful, this person's skinny, this person's this. Like if we could look more at our projects as what world are we building with these people? Verse world building versus she's cute, he's this like, how are we gonna work

4 (1h 4m 24s):
Too fast? The biggest slap in the face for me when I got out of school, and this include like graduate school and undergrad, you know, like in grad school you feel like, I mean my graduate school is a little more real realistic, but like you look at a lot of these grad programs and undergrad programs and it's like everybody is not an aine. Like everybody's not an aine and like they accept like 90% everyone has to be skinny and in shape and you know, and try to be as beautiful as possible, whatever. And then you get in the real world and you realize in a show TV or stage, you got one Abu and then everybody else is Yeah. Regular folks, right? And it's like, and then you start to think why, where were the regular folks in school?

4 (1h 5m 8s):
Like where were the regular folks in school? You had a

1 (1h 5m 12s):
Getting cut or otherwise marginalized.

4 (1h 5m 14s):
Seriously. You, you had a whole class of quote unquote agen. You use it and you get in the real world and people are like,

1 (1h 5m 19s):
Again, it's like not, it's not world building. What they're doing is creating like their version of maybe what they want the world to look like. But when you walk around, even now going out, and you may know this too, it's like when you go to commercials like auditions, you, they bring me in because I look a certain way that they don't want me to be the anu that's not the thing that they want. And so I'm like, oh, right. We need people to look all different kinds of ways because that's the world we're building look like all different things. So it's really about world building versus an ensemble building versus Yeah.

1 (1h 6m 0s):
Everyone has to be cookie cutter one way.

4 (1h 6m 3s):
Yeah, the cookie. The cookie cutter. Cookie version.

2 (1h 6m 7s):
So when you, when you did, when you went, I mean there was all this build up and lead up to getting, going to that school, University of Delaware. How did it hold up to expectations?

4 (1h 6m 17s):
Oh my god, Emma, that amazing. I mean it was like, it was, I'm just boot camp for life. But in the best way, I mean we had a, a pool room. It was like a, a room that used to be a huge pool that they had like, you know, concrete over and like turned in kind of a gymnasium kind of thing. But we had charts all over the walls and you had your chart and you had to go to the gym three times a week and you had your numbers and each, every other day you had to put your numbers on the, on the board. No one was self checking you. They did a whole mind thing about integrity where like, if you lied, you yourself would check yourself.

4 (1h 7m 0s):
It was a weird thing. Like they got into our heads in the first couple of months as like, you are your word, you're nothing but your word. If you're, if you're not your word, who are you? You know, if you don't have your word, what good are you? You know? So like the idea of like lying would, would be like, why would I lie? I'm only cheating myself. This is so horrible. So each week we had to like, the numbers had to go up and when it didn't

1 (1h 7m 24s):
Wait the numbers of what? Like what, like

4 (1h 7m 26s):
What what, Yeah. So we were on a Nautilus program. So we had to go to the gym and clock in a certain amount of time each, each week. And then say you were doing like a bar curl or something. I'm, I'm trying to think of some what I'm blanking out on the names, but say that you, you had to do like some, like a chest press and you were pressing 120 pounds. Then the next week it better be a hundred, like 120 pounds at 10 reps, Right? When you get past 10 reps, you gotta up the weight to 125 and you gotta get, you know, 125 at eight reps, nine reps.

4 (1h 8m 9s):
Once you get to 10, you gotta move it up to hundred 30.

1 (1h 8m 12s):
Oh yeah. Progress. It was

4 (1h 8m 14s):
About progress. But when you, you, when your numbers did not go up, they were like, Damien, I see that you didn't go up last week. I need you to really make that happen this, this, this week. And so in your head you're like, What? I can't, I, you know, you'd see people at the gym like, you know, trying to get it, whatever like that. But what it taught me was like we, I had a friend that for two weeks she didn't go up and they were like, this third week you either go up or you go out, that's it, Up, up or or out. And you see what the mind is capable of. And you see that it's a limitation based on your mind thinking, Oh I, cuz if you can do one 20, you can do 1 25.

4 (1h 8m 59s):
You, you won't do 10 reps of it. But that's not the point of doing 10 reps. Right. You just have to, And so you, you, you just have to do one. If you can do one at 25 and you start building from one to the two to the three. And so it was like, and she got it, she got it, you know, it was just like, it helps you to push past this idea of what you think. And so it was things like, like that. And we, we never had an acting class. Like we had no class that was called acting. We, we had rhetoric, which was how to create an ar an argument. We had speech classes, which is like, you know, pron pronunciation. Right, Right.

4 (1h 9m 40s):
But everything was, was about how to create an argument, how to get your point across, how to communicate emotion, like things like that. It was just like basic like fun fundamental things that you can actually use on stage. Cause for me a lot of theater schools is like that heady crap where it's like, Oh, pretend you're a dog. Or pretend I'm like, what? Like, or, and this is gonna be a really horrible thing to say, but this is just my opinion. Or that kind of like Christian Link thing where it's like, breathe and, and you know, release or whatever you get on stage, you have time to be all ha ha you.

4 (1h 10m 22s):
No. It's like, what are the practical things that I'm gonna be able to do on the stage to get my voice out Right. To speak, Yeah. To bring it forward. Right. To connect.

2 (1h 10m 32s):
It's right to connect. Well what it sounds to me is that their approach is very much on your body is your instrument. So you, you need to do you need to demonstrate a, a command of, of self discipline in order to, you know, if you're gonna be on, if you're gonna be touring with Hamilton, that's eight shows a week and Yeah. You know, and it's a great paycheck, so you're gonna wanna do it for a good long while and you're not gonna have the stamina to do it unless you learn here and now how to, you know, keep an instrument in, in fighting shape. Yeah. You said something earlier about you, you did do Shakespeare in Pennsylvania.

2 (1h 11m 16s):
You, you wanted that, this classical training. Is that still your thing? You love Shakespeare and,

4 (1h 11m 22s):
Yeah, I do. I mean, to be honest, I do, Right now I do everything. I've done a lot of Shakespeare. Like even over the pandemic I did a, a Zoom production of Pericles where I played the lead. And I'm gonna say that that's, to this day the hardest role I've ever played. Like, I dunno if anyone has ever read Pericles, but it's like, that is a difficult play to do. I

1 (1h 11m 47s):
Fucking could never get, I could never get through it. Yeah. I didn't even know what was happening.

4 (1h 11m 51s):
Yeah, it's, I mean it's a good, once you understand it, it's a, it's a good play, but it just takes so much work to actually communicate that argument of what's being said and, and what's being, you know, showed like, yeah, it's, it was for the audition, I think I, I think I took a week to prepare one scene and I kept, I was like, oh my god. So like, when I actually booked it, I was like, what? They want me. Cause even in the callback, I, I was on the beach in Miami, I was quarantining before seeing my parents. It was right before the Christmas holidays.

4 (1h 12m 32s):
And I remember I had this call back and I was like, Ugh, I have to leave the beach and go, you know, do this call back. Like, ugh. I was like, I'm not even gonna get it, you know, it's like, it's so hard. And like, and I go and I'm doing the callback and the director, you know, had me do the scene and he's like, What did you think? And I'm like, I thought it was good. Did it? I I've, I thought it was good. Like, and he goes, Huh, okay. And I was like, okay. I was like, Do you, do you wanna do something else? And he goes, Yeah, well why don't we try it again and do this? And I did it. And he was like, What'd you think about that?

4 (1h 13m 12s):
And I was like, Oh, we're playing this game. I said, again, I thought it was great cuz I did it. I thought it was great. And she was like, Huh, okay, let's move on to the next scene. Did the next scene, What did you think of, think, think, think of it. And I was like, you gotta be kidding. But by this point I'm just like, to the roof, right? And I'm like, I thought, I thought it was great. I thought I could relax a bit more. I thought I could, you know, I'm, I'm pushing to get that communication, but since we're doing it through Zoom, which is what we're gonna be doing any anyway, it's a little harder. But I'm, you know, I felt like I'm almost there. And he goes, Huh, okay. And so we we're getting ready, like we had gone in for like 15 minutes now, and he is like, Okay, well let's try, try this.

4 (1h 13m 55s):
And then I did it. And then he, he was like, Huh, okay, okay, okay, okay, well thank you so much. And then I said to him, I said, Well, did you get everything that you wanted that you were looking for? And he went, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I just bluntly at this point, I was like, Listen, you've already taken half an hour of my beach, beach time. So I was like, Well, what is it that you want bluntly? What do you, what do you, what do you want? And then he's like, Well, I was thinking that he could be like, and I was like, Okay, do you wanna try it?

4 (1h 14m 36s):
And he goes, Well, yeah, yeah, let's just do it 1, 1 1 last time. And I was like, All right, sure. And so I did it, you know, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And he was like, Yeah, cool. That was it. And I was like, Okay, well right. Thank you. And so like, I left it being like, this was a big waste of my time. I was like, he doesn't even know what he wants. He's like asking me what I think. I was like, What, what is this foolishness? And so like two days later my agent called me and was like, Oh, so you booked Pericles? And I, I'm sorry, what? She's like, You booked Pericles. I was like, Lauren, stop. Stop joking. And she's like, I'm serious. I was like, No, this is impossible. I didn't book it. No. She's like, Dam, I'm calling you.

4 (1h 15m 18s):
And I was like, you did? I thought he hated me. I was even like bluntly like, what do you want? Like, I don't, what do you want?

2 (1h 15m 25s):
But no,

1 (1h 15m 26s):
You, Right. Well here's the,

2 (1h 15m 28s):
You doing, you doing that, You saying that, I mean, this is exactly the same thing as asking for what you want. In this case you were asking what he wanted, but it's the same concept. And also was he related to the person that your mother, she thought you were talented because these questions were very similar.

1 (1h 15m 46s):
I think also it just, we don't know what people are wanting. And I, I I'm aware that we have like five minutes left and something that I'm dying to ask because I'm obsessed right now is okay, if, if you can go there with me, you're on stage and you are like, when you have a fear, whether it's will I stutter? How do you move through that shit, Damien? How do you move through your fear? Cause I think other people wanna know that like me. Like how do you move through fear about what something, in terms of whatever it is on stage you're acting, How do you move through it?

4 (1h 16m 26s):
Two things. One, I I think of my breath, right? The way that I conquered stuttering was that I've, I've started paying attention to how my body felt when I wasn't stuttering. And even when I'm excited or I'm speaking fast or you know, I'm angry, there's still this kind of like, I, I imagine that there's like a pole in the middle of my body and it's like a grounded pole. So as much as there's chaos around it, like the hurricane or tornado circling it, there is still that solid kind of calmness. And when I connect to that, I feel like I can do anything. I can talk fast, I can be angry, whatever.

4 (1h 17m 7s):
And the idea of stuttering doesn't even even bother me. Right? The other thing is, and this is what helped me to really get over it, was my graduate school, the head of my grad program had me do a journal of like what my thoughts were while I was stuttering, what my thoughts were before I was stuttering, where I was, what I was talking about, who I was with. And I started to see a pattern. He would meet, meet with me like every other week. And you know, and we would talk. And I started to see a pattern that like, a lot of times it was like, I didn't feel like what I had to say was important. I thought people wanted me just to hurry and talk and, you know, and, and I was scared about stuttering.

4 (1h 17m 48s):
And then he was like, create stuttering. When you're with your friends stutter on purpose. He, he's like, And you'll see what, what happens? They'll just wait. Nothing happens. No one judges you, no one talks about you. They just wait. Right? And so the minute I started to recreate it myself and was okay with stuttering, right? He's like, if you're on, if you're on stage and your character stutters, guess what? Your character stutters, you're playing March. March Banks in Canada. Okay, March Banks stutters. Great. You know? And once I started to see it like that, it was like, oh wow. Okay.

1 (1h 18m 27s):
So this is, yeah, I I I thank you for sharing that because it's like actually super helpful. I I, I mean, I just, I'm, I'm grateful for it. And it's something that Jean and I were talking about, like my fear of flying, right? Yeah. When I can say I, no matter what I was thinking about that poll you're talking about, no matter what happens to me, I am not going to abandon myself in this process. So even if I'm on stage and I stutter, I will not jump ship and abandon myself regardless of what happens. And I feel like that's that pull of like, no matter what happens, I'm standing here and I know at my core that, that I may be afraid, but at my core I know that like, I deserve to be here and I'm not gonna abandon myself.

1 (1h 19m 18s):
And it just, it's just, it goes a long way. So I like the pool. I'm gonna use

4 (1h 19m 22s):
The pole. My, my, the theater, the theater teacher that moved from, you know, middle school to high school, she said something very interesting to me. She was like, You know, you stuttered a lot when I met you, but the one thing that I admired about you is if you had something to say, you would stutter your way through it. Like, you wouldn't stop because you were stuttering.

3 (1h 19m 53s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends I survive. Theater School is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth Ramirez and Gina Pucci are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina Pucci. For more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable ink, please visit our [e-mail]. You could also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

0 (1h 20m 25s):
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Creators & Guests

Host

Gina Pulice

Co-host, Writer, Actor, Director

Host

Jen Bosworth Ramirez

Co-host, actor, writer, consultant

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?