Hello and welcome.
My name is Christopher Chandler.
And my name is Chris Schauer.
And we are Generally American.
In our podcast, we discuss events, culture, whatever else we want from a
Generally American perspective.
From our differing viewpoints, our goal is that we can offer others and ourselves
nuanced opinions on fascinating topics related to the U .S.
We invite you to be part of the discussion and we hope that you'll stick around to
see where the conversation takes us.
So let's dive in.
And welcome back.
Welcome back.
We are recording live.
Yeah.
So, Desarred of what the weather here is.
pretty boring, I would say.
It's been kind of rainy.
Although we've had a couple days where it's been in like the 70s and 80s.
I think last weekend it was pretty hot.
But spring just started, or not started, but you know, my allergies, I mean my
spring allergies have started.
So.
but I'm fine.
Definitely.
I usually have like three, four or five allergy days a year where it's like
unbearable.
And two of them were this week.
Like I thought I was actually sick, but I was just, I was sneezing so much.
I felt so lightheaded.
I could barely focus at work, which is always fun.
Always fun.
Yeah.
I had a couple of those days, I think.
last week or week or two ago.
I don't know if I mentioned this in the podcast.
I did like one of those, what are they called, like scratch tests basically where
they put something on your back.
yeah.
And they prick you.
I remember you telling me that off the air.
How miserable was that?
Yeah, they did it on my arms and on my back and it was, it was terrible.
it was slightly inconvenient because they put, I think like 10 drops on my arm of
like, I think,
trees, I think a test drop was like water, then they did like trees, grass, weed, dog
hair, cat hair, and like a couple other things, and it really started to itch.
It wasn't uncomfortable, it was just annoying because I could scratch it, so I
had to sit there for like 20 minutes.
I just kind of suffered through it.
But yeah, apparently I'm allergic to some kind of weed or some kind of tree in the
area, I don't know.
So I have to do like a, I can't remember what the name is, like they desensitize
you or something or whatever it's called.
Yeah.
So they are, you're going to be getting allergy shots?
Yeah, something like that.
Okay.
I've done that.
Those are, they work.
Yeah, I hope so.
They work really well.
It takes a while, but it works really well.
Yeah.
I'll start the treatment in, I think September when I get back from the U S in
August or in fall.
So.
Yeah, that's pretty much it.
So that's pretty much the weather here.
Well, here we're we're in May.
So they say April showers bring May flowers, but our showers always come in
May.
So we're getting some light rain followed by some pretty bad wind.
And that makes the pollen go nuts, which is what killed me.
And other than that, it's been mostly nice, but a little rainy here and there.
I think we have just like a boring, cloudy.
not super warm, not super cold week coming up ahead of us.
I wish we would have that.
I'd like to have just like constant nice weather.
But my version of nice weather is like in like the seventies.
Yeah, it's supposed to be like in the fifties all week.
OK.
That's almost too cold for me.
But yeah, there you have it, the bi -weekly weather report.
So today is something I kind of picked out because it's, I guess one of my pet
peeves, I would say, which is true crime.
In particular, true crime podcast, because I feel like true crime podcasts have
become super popular within the past, I want to say like five -ish years.
There are a whole bunch of them.
I don't really listen to a lot of True Crime podcasts.
I used to though.
But you can find True Crime really everywhere.
You can find it on YouTube, you can find it on Netflix, a lot of movies.
But I guess maybe we should start off by defining what True Crime is.
How would you define it?
Well, I would just define it as...
anything discussing.
I don't think you can really limit the crime, but realistically most true crime
related content is about serial killers or maybe just like a particular murder just
because it's interesting.
I think you could do like organized crime or things like that, but the killers are
what tend to bring the eyes.
Honestly, that's actually pretty good.
I didn't think about it that way.
But yeah, I think when we speak with true crime, a lot of it is generally geared
towards things that are very gruesome in nature.
I mean, technically, you know, bank robbery is true crime, but I think for
some people it would be considered kind of boring because it's not gory enough.
You know, as they say, if it bleeds, it leads.
The old saying.
So I guess the more gruesome something is, the more...
interesting as opposed to I guess fictional crime like Law and Order for
example the first thing that comes to mind or NCIS or what are the other shows called
like it's not CIA I don't know there's so many of those detective police procedural
shows those are super popular I used to watch them a lot when I was growing up I
think I watched so many
episodes of Law and Order.
There's so many different variations.
After a while, it gets kind of boring.
It did for me, because it repeats.
Yeah, and then it got to the point where it's like, I can't even remember if Law
and Order is the right one.
But it's like Law and Order, Hawaii, Law and Order, New York, Law and Order, Miami.
And then they'll do like crossover events where one team goes to another city and
You just pick another city and you got another show and people will watch it.
Yeah, there are a lot of detective shows.
I kind of view those as like outlets for people who are interested in true crime.
So I'll see what your opinion is.
My opinion of true crime is I find it to be a bit, at the very, at the very least,
I find it to be tacky.
And at the very worst, I find it to be somewhat immoral.
Because when you watch like regular shows, like regular like detective shows like Law
and Order, NCIS or whatever, there aren't like actual victims to these crimes, like,
because it's all fictional, it's all made up.
So there's nothing really happening to anyone.
Whereas like for true crime, you're basically re -traumatizing the people.
And so you're like re -traumatizing like the victims, like the families, like using
that for like profit and gain.
And a lot of this sounds like really abstract, you know, like who cares?
But if we go back like a couple years, I don't know if you remember this, I haven't
actually seen it.
But on Netflix, they brought out a Jeffrey Dahmer documentary.
Did you hear about that?
I think I did.
That's not the one I heard a lot about of, but I'm pretty sure I did remember hearing
about that.
Yeah.
So like, for those who don't know, Jeffrey Dahmer was a serial killer, I believe in
the nineties, if I'm
I'm not mistaken.
And they did a documentary about him.
Like there are thousands of documentaries.
The problem is in this case, it re -traumatized the family of the victims and
they were really upset about the documentary because a lot of this is like
open to the public.
So it's, I mean, it's public knowledge.
You can do whatever you want with it.
But the families were extremely upset and distraught because they were reliving it
all over again.
And so it's like kind of digging up like past wounds and that was like a point of
view I didn't really come to until like a couple years ago when I really used to
listen to like a lot of true crime.
So I'm kind of torn whenever I watch it and I try to limit like what I do want of
true crime.
I think there's definitely a level of...
exploitation and taste.
You kind of have to, well, you don't have to, but I think both of us would prefer to
kind of gauge when we're engaging in true crime.
So for me, this would have been like, 2020, 2021, somewhere in there.
I was door dashing full time as a job and I always needed things to listen to.
You burn through music and podcasts and YouTube.
You burn through it all so quick.
So I decided to dip my toe into a true crime podcast.
And I got through a few episodes of this particular one.
And I remember.
The last episode I listened to that I never finished the two ladies that hosted
it just sounded so excited.
They're like, we have, we have a good one.
And I just remember like, that's weird.
Like that's not.
Like that's it kind of gives me vibes of like I watch I watch NASCAR for that for
the crashes, you know, I mean, I think most people have like a morbid fascination
at a crash.
But the people who are like in the stands like crash, crash, crash, like that's when
it's weird.
And I didn't even mean to bring this full circle while I was listening to that
episode.
I got in a car accident and told him my car.
That's right.
I mean, you mentioned the car accident, but you didn't mention what it led up to.
Yeah.
So it was a fun day.
Yeah.
You used a lot of good words there.
I mean, I definitely think a lot of it is like morbid fascination, like morbid
curiosity.
And I...
I get it, I mean, this is a broader problem, I think, with people because if
you look, for example, at the news, people complain about the news all the time about
how negative it is and how manipulative it is and this and that.
But if the news were all positive, I don't think a lot of people would watch it.
You know, more people are drawn to shootings as opposed to, I don't know,
like a dog show, to put it bluntly.
And I think that's the same for true...
true crime and a lot of these people I think they forget that these are real
people like behind all of this and so it's I don't know it feels really weird to get
excited for things like that like I am interested in like in terms of like
history you know like just general history because I mean crime is history but once
you get you dig kind of deeper you do realize that like those are real people.
Sometimes it is for the better.
Like for example, I can't remember who this was, but there was a YouTuber, I
think this happened a couple of times because you have like these hobby
detectives, if you will, people who just like to investigate crime for the pure joy
of it, I guess, for lack of better terms.
And they sometimes look at like old cases or like cold cases.
And I believe this one YouTuber,
actually found the remains of a husband and a wife that had veered off the road
and they had driven into a lake and no one had found them.
They'd been lost for like 23 years or something, 24 years.
And I think in another case, very similar, they were also reported as missing, I
think for like eight or 10 years, I can't remember the exact cases.
And so because of these hobby detectives who were so interested in true crime,
they solve cases.
So, I mean, that's like the beauty of it, but I think that's, that would be probably
the minority.
And definitely the best case scenario.
Yeah, it's definitely the best case scenario is helping solve cases.
I don't think most people actually care about that.
I just think they care about using other people's pain for their pleasure, if you
will.
I think I'm being kind of harsh, but that's just like my honest opinion.
Yeah, I mean, there's there's definitely an aspect to it of that.
I think another way it can.
be beneficial is every now and again I'll go on a little bit of a true crime kick.
I'll just have it a second monitor material while I'm doing something else.
And...
It makes you realize just how scary the world is.
Because a lot of these cases are just like.
I can't remember the exact killer this was, but he would just drive.
He was in Washington state and he would drive like three hours away to like
Spokane and he would go to the bad side of Spokane where it was pretty known you
could get prostitutes and he would just pick up a prostitute and that would be his
next victim.
And I, I don't think I particularly need the lesson to not go, you know.
become a prostitute, but you know, just little things like that.
Like this person just picked up hitchhikers or this person.
would just target people who didn't lock their houses or, you know, things of that
nature.
Like, don't use some protection of yourself.
Yeah, I definitely think that's one way of looking at it as a way to educate people.
Like to look out for like certain signs, look out for certain behavior, attitudes.
But I think that's more of like a side effect.
a side effect of like the whole genre as opposed to like the intention.
Like if you're smart enough, you'll read that into it basically.
Be like, okay, like, I don't know, don't get into cars with people you don't know.
Don't go to like random parties, this and that.
But I would love for true crime to be educational.
Not in terms of like how to do the crime, but how to avoid to be a victim.
But unfortunately, I don't think that's what a lot of people do.
Yeah, I won't lie.
A lot of that.
A lot of the whole victim part is why I.
Don't listen to it for very long at a time.
Because one, it's sad and two.
It kind of depresses me to think like, you know, you listen to enough of these and
some of them are just acts of random violence.
And it's just sad to think about how...
common it is.
Or it's not super common, you know, the actual, like, serial killer phenomenon,
but...
It's people don't like thinking about how random the universe is and that a crazy
person could just, you know, kill you for no logical reason.
We I think the human mind does does not like thinking like that because it scares
us.
And that's kind of where my head goes after a while.
I mean, definitely.
I mean, if you do watch a lot of these true crime documentaries or like listen to
these podcasts, a lot of it does seem very like it's just gratuitous violence.
Like a lot of it does seem very random and unfair and unjust.
Which kind of leads me on to my second point.
Because my first point is the biggest, which being I think is extremely unethical
to at the very least make.
maybe consuming is a different story, but definitely making it as an ethical, in my
opinion, unethical.
But the second point is that it kind of desensitizes you to a lot of these things.
Not in the sense that it would, like if you watch like a serial killer that you
say like, I'm gonna go out and be a serial killer, I don't think people operate like
that necessarily.
But I know from my own part, it does make you seem less sympathetic to these people.
if you listen to it like over and over and over and over because you stop seeing
these people as people and more as like characters in a story.
And so it stops being true crime and starts becoming like fiction.
And I've heard that from a lot of people and I've heard that for myself too, where
I'll just like listen to these stories and like, -huh, -huh, -huh, -huh.
And then like after I've been away for a while and I really like analyze it, I
realize, you know, I don't really feel anything.
for these stories, even though I should because they're extremely sad and violent.
Which is why I try to avoid these stories as much as I can.
But it's really hard.
Like you said, like if you need something to listen to when you're just cleaning or
working, I mean, these stories are everywhere.
So it's really hard to avoid.
Yeah, I, and I'll tell you my, I haven't listened to them in.
a while, but I don't know if you've ever heard of the explore with us YouTube
channel.
No, I've never heard of it.
I wish they had a better name.
I think I think they used to be.
I mean, it's true crime, so the taste is debatable, but I think it used to be a
little bit more tasteless and they've improved since then.
But their whole gimmick that they do.
Is they get a hold of.
police interview footage.
And they'll kind of tell the, you know, the story of it's, it's basically always a
murder.
They'll tell the story of the murder and everything that happened, but the bulk of
the video and they're, they're usually over an hour long is them playing back
the, the police interview and analyzing it and.
breaking down interview techniques, breaking down like psychology and body
tells like you can see here the the detective challenged them and made them
feel uncomfortable and they turned their body this way which is like a body
language sign that they're uncomfortable now or you know something like that I I
also have mixed feelings on this and I don't think I've watched it in over half a
year but
I don't know, does the analytical angle of that make it any better?
Cause it does feel very technical sometimes.
Now that you explained, I was like, you know what, actually I do know that I have
seen like a bunch of random clips on Facebook.
I do know explore with us.
I don't really watch it though.
It was just the algorithm.
That is a good question.
If you like, what angle you come at it from, if it's, if you're just like, I'm
not, cause a lot of these true crime things are very sensational.
They like to like glorify a lot of the violence or kind of like gloss over it and
just not really care.
If you go at it like from like a technical angle, maybe it makes it less bad, but at
the end of the day, you're still kind of opening up wounds.
You're still kind of spreading information around.
So like you're adding to the pool of information about this topic, which still
isn't like.
conflict with my first point being that it's unethical.
I don't know how you get it to be ethical in that sense.
I guess the reason why I feel like it's unethical is because I think we said
before, it's exploitation.
So if you could remove that element and then use it as an opportunity to grow or
learn, I mean, yeah, sure.
I mean, like these things, for example, are probably super helpful for like
detectives, you know, that, you know, what to look for and how to operate.
I don't think the majority of people who watched your crime are detectives though.
Yeah.
I, I, I want your opinion on something.
Sure.
Cause this is, this is an episode they made that kind of stood out to me.
It's been a while, so I might get a detail or two wrong, but basically.
If I remember the case correctly, a teenager basically, he had some sort of
mental snap, mental breakdown out of nowhere and killed some members of his
family.
And in the interviews, you can see like he is like,
almost completely shut down, like he's not a motive, anything like that.
And they did the episode and then near the end, they actually, they called the guy in
prison and did an interview with him.
And this was something like 10 years after the fact.
And he was basically saying like, yeah,
It was, you know, I didn't really feel like I was in control and I definitely had
like a mental episode.
I feel horrible about it.
Definitely shouldn't be let out of here.
Like I'd be horrified if it happened again.
and I want to say this is the part I'm not a hundred percent sure of, but I believe
he said something about like,
If you feel like you have issues like that, you should, like, seek help,
because...
You know, he didn't.
And he just had a mental episode and killed some people, which he wasn't trying
to use it as an excuse, but he wishes he did not do that.
So I don't - I don't know, does that -
Where does that land on your radar?
Cause I feel like that's like a mix of like education, proper like actual
journalism.
Cause you seek someone out for an interview and it's not like glorifying it
or sensationalizing.
It's more, I would almost consider that like a cautionary tale.
That I think that's completely, that's a very good point you bring up.
That's completely different though, because if you're like a true journalist
going out, doing your
due diligence, doing research, trying to educate the public because at the end of
the day, I think that's what journalists are for.
They're for educating people.
And obviously we can't be perfectly neutral.
That's not possible.
But we should be, we're not journalists, you and I, we're not journalists, but
journalists should be neutral within reason.
Their only job is to present the facts as is.
to the best of their abilities and being as unbiased and neutral as possible.
With that being said, if they operate in that manner and they present the facts of
like true crime, murder cases and stuff like that, I think that's okay because
then it does serve as a way to educate people.
I mean, because unfortunately there are things that go bump in the night and you
definitely have to be aware of them.
and you definitely have to know how people operate.
And it could also help you discover something about yourself.
You know, like maybe you have these feelings, maybe you have these tendencies,
and by seeing these stories, by seeing these documentaries, you can seek help.
I would like to believe that is true, and I do believe that's true, but most people
doing these True Crime podcasts aren't journalists, they're just like run -of
-the -mill people, like you and me.
And it's also to a point where...
At what point is that information too much?
Like, you know, I don't know if you've heard this, but they've called like the
70s, like the the greatest decade for serial killers.
Because in the 70s, you know.
People left their doors unlocked.
Kids would just be out alone, unsupervised all the time.
Just nobody, just people weren't that afraid in general.
So it was pretty easy for serial killers to operate.
I feel like we live very different lives now.
Yeah, definitely.
I think that's a good question.
I think I have a question about that.
In your community, do you feel like people lock their doors all the time?
Yes.
I have some family that doesn't when they're expecting people and I don't love
it, but I've decided to stop fighting that battle.
I can't remember how it was when I was growing up.
I think it was, it just really depended on the situation.
Like most of the time we would lock our doors, but I mean, if on certain days, if
we felt relatively safe, we would leave the doors unlocked.
Like, I'm going to the gas station.
I'll be back in 20 minutes, 30 minutes.
Like what's going to happen if I leave my door unlocked for like 20 or 30 minutes?
that's horrifying.
Yeah.
I recently left my garage door open.
when i left the house for like three or four hours and i was like i came home and
i was like nobody probably went inside but i hope not about to have to fight someone
i mean i i haven't been robbed
I know here, for example, in Germany, they lock everything.
So everything's locked down here.
I know that, especially like where I'm from, like with doorknobs, you can open
the door from both sides in the US.
So like if you close your door, you can just open it back up from the outside.
Whereas in Germany, you can't.
So you only have a doorknob on the inside of the door.
So if you shut your door,
and you don't have a key, you can't open it.
And so that's how like a lot of doors work here.
So they can only be opened from one side, which sucks sometimes because if you, if
there's like a strong gust of wind, it'll shut your door and you'll have to call
like a locksmith.
goody.
Yeah.
But according to your German law, that doesn't count as your door being locked.
because you only pulled it shut.
So you know, you could do like the credit card trick to where like you put it like
in the door and you can pop the lock open or like the wedge or whatever it's called.
Cause you didn't actually lock it.
So if you lock your door, you have to actually use a key.
So if something happens in like, like someone breaks into your house, for
example, and you didn't actually lock it with a key, then it's your fault.
So Germans do both, so like they'll shut and lock the door.
But I think in some parts of the US it really depends on like where you live.
I think it's more of like a community feeling.
Like is our community safe?
Like do we feel at ease?
And if so, then I think most people in that community wouldn't lock their doors.
Does that extend to like the cars though in your area?
Do people generally lock their cars?
So I remember...
when I was younger, like a teenager, like if it was the winter, you would
or my dad would like pull up to a gas station to go inside and like grab a drink
and a snack or something.
And he would leave the truck running and I'm like, like, aren't you gonna turn it
off?
It's like, no, if someone, he would just say, if someone comes and tries to steal
it, I'll just run out real quick and get them.
And like, that doesn't seem super smart, but I think it's also, there's certain at
the risk of getting too far from our topic when you're in Northern like snowy States.
in the winter.
There's like certain etiquettes.
Like we're in a modern era of remote starters.
So when you remote start a car, it stays locked.
But in the past, and there's still plenty of them, you need to go outside, put the
key in the ignition, turn it on to warm it up.
And people would do that.
And I think we all were just kind of on the same page, like, hey, we're all cold
and miserable.
Don't
Don't steal each other's cars right now.
Yeah.
It's not something I ever hear about.
Yeah, that's a good sentiment.
I know, and this is way off topic, but I know definitely in some parts of Alaska,
the generally like the cars unlocked or like running in case like it gets like
really cold, like there's a cold snap or like a snowstorm.
But yeah, I think definitely, so if we circle back to our topic, like with the
whole incidents in the 70s, I definitely think that made a lot of people more
uneasy about like security in the United States and our attitudes towards crime.
So from like in the 80s, I believe they're called like super predators.
I don't know if you've heard of the term.
I mean, when I think super predator, I think like some kind of apex, like animal
kingdom predator.
No, the super predators are.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, you can think of it like that.
But it was like it was like this fear in like the late 80s and 90s that a lot of
kids were becoming increasingly violent.
And so we developed like a lot harsher laws in the United States as a result.
Like you've heard of like the three strike rule.
So that's not necessarily like because of true crime, but I think a lot of these
true crime shows amplify that fear that everyone has a potential danger.
And a lot of these shows kind of take everything out of context, like cultural
context, like temporal context, like when does this all occur?
like the zeitgeist of like the US at the time, this and that, and it presents it
like we're just surrounded by, it looks like criminals and murderers and all this
stuff.
And it feeds into this algorithm of fear.
There's a new term I learned.
It's not actually new, but I mean, it's new to me.
Like rage farming.
I don't know if you've heard of that term before.
Yeah.
Like just the idea, like if you if you put anything on on the Internet to get people
angry, I mean, if they're engaging because they're happy or they're angry, it doesn't
matter.
Engagement's engagement.
It's all click.
Exactly.
And I think that's one of the reasons why I don't like true crime is a lot of it is
not necessarily like rage, but like morbid fascination, morbid curiosity.
And for me, it goes like in the same direction.
I don't really see like a net positive.
from any of this, except for the point you pointed out, which is educational, like
journalism.
And even then, that episode I talked about, I don't think I, I mean, I haven't
listened to their whole catalog, but I've listened to a chunk of it.
That was the only episode that had something like that.
Though, to be fair, I don't think most killers are willing to just take a random
phone call in prison and say, sure, I'll.
I'll give you an interview for your YouTube show.
I mean, yeah, I mean, there are a lot of journalists who do that.
One thing I used to love watching and I still kind of do are like prison
documentaries.
I don't know if that really falls under true crime per se, according to the
definition that we've been using, but it definitely kind of goes in that direction
because you, because like basically talk to the inmates who are like, are in death
row or swimming life or, or whatever their sentence is.
and they talk about their crimes and they do it from like a very, like a very
removed and neutral point of view.
Like, yeah, I committed the murder because I was really mad that my girlfriend was
cheating on me with like my best friend and blah, blah, blah.
And so then you can kind of get into their way of thinking, like understanding how
they became like that.
I don't know why I didn't bring up this point earlier.
That's one of the reasons why I personally love to...
used to love watching true crime is I'm fascinated not about the crimes
themselves, but about the fact of how people can become that.
Like this whole like transformation of like being just like a regular person and
just becoming, it sounds kind of cliche, but like, you know, becoming like pure
evil basically.
That transformation is
more interesting to me than like the crimes themselves.
I don't really actually care about the crimes.
No, I mean, I would say that the actual crime part is the worst part.
Mm hmm.
Like I'm there because some of these some of these I agree just watching like either
the transformation or just some people are just kind of.
Born mentally, you know, different.
Like you might be a psychopath or sociopath where they never really had
anything against it, a murder on principle.
It's just they were one day presented with a situation where it made sense for them
to do it in their head.
So they did it.
So there wasn't really a whole lot of change.
But some of these, some true crime goes into like...
gruesome detail on exactly how things were done.
And it's like way too much detail.
Like, I get it you're trying to like hammer home like this is a messed up
person because they this they didn't just kill their victims they did X, Y and Z to
them.
I get it but.
It's like damn.
Cut it cut it down by at least half.
I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, but a lot of it does seem kind of over the top.
And a lot of it is self -serving.
So I don't really, like I said, I don't really enjoy watching it anymore.
Although to be completely transparent, like sometimes I'll catch myself listening
to it because I'll be working and like the YouTube algorithm is like, just click this
and click this and click this and before you know it, you know.
you're on like true crime or like a documentary because the worst thing about
YouTube is if you've watched one video as everyone knows who's ever been on YouTube
they'll recommend you like 30 videos that like are somewhat similar and it's like a
rabbit hole you know it goes it goes deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper
you know you watch one documentary about I don't know car theft and then you will end
up like with like double homicide.
I mean, they're not that far apart.
They're really not.
So I don't know how you can make true crime ethical in that sense.
It's really hard.
It's way off topic, but it's like the same thing with pornography, where a lot of
people feel like it exploits a lot of people and so it can't be per se ethical.
I don't know if that's true.
I just don't know how you get to the point where it's okay.
Or you just say like, I don't care, which is, you know, also a position you can
take.
I know it's a position I hold on a lot of things, especially politics.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, it's also people, I don't know what our, we have such a strange
fascination with killers in general.
Like,
I don't know if you heard this, you probably did.
So when Ted Bundy was going through his court cases, he was like super charismatic
and he had a lot of female fans.
Like people were like super attracted to him.
Do you remember that?
Yeah, I do.
I do.
I don't know if I want to say remember this was like in the 70s.
We were not alive, but so that was like a weird thing, right?
And then they made that Netflix movie in 2019 about him with Zac Efron as Ted
Bundy.
Zac Efron is also super charismatic and attractive.
And it kind of like.
It was weird because.
He nailed that part, right?
And that was like one of the more messed up things about Ted Bundy was like he he
was like really playing into it and trying to like take advantage of it.
But like.
It.
At what point does like nailing that perfectly, like at what point is that like
super weird and unethical?
That's in general when I think that's a really good question.
You can actually kind of expand that a little bit to include figures who are
incredibly distasteful, like historical figures, people who actually existed and
ask yourself how good is it to portray them?
as authentically as possible.
So like, for example, like a real example would be like Hitler.
For like the longest time, it was incredibly uncomfortable for a lot of
people to display him in movies in like an ethical way, not sorry, an authentic way,
not ethical, an authentic manner.
And so a lot of people just kind of talk about him in movies, but not actually
portray him.
And so his portrayal in a lot of movies in Germany was very limited.
And there was this one movie that was produced, I think it was 2004.
So it was called Der Untagang, which is like the downfall.
And it's, I think you know the movie.
It's the famous scene where Hitler is in like a bunker surrounded by his generals.
It was like a meme in like the early 2000s.
If you remember that, and he starts screaming.
The 9 -9 -9 -9?
Yeah, yeah.
That's the movie.
And the guy who portrayed Hitler in the movie, I think he won an Oscar or
something and his performance is really good.
But it made a lot of people really uncomfortable because of how good it was.
And so that's the question.
Are you allowed to portray these serial killers as authentically as possible?
I don't know.
That's a really good question.
I don't know if you want to though.
I mean
It's one of those things, like if you're going to do it, I'd say do your best.
It's more just should you do it.
But I mean, the whole, I don't know how aware of this you are, but there's like
definitely a group of people who are just like serial killer fans.
Like there are people who are just like sexually attracted to serial killers.
Like that's, that's a thing.
Like that's just a semi -common thing.
You can look it up.
You could find communities.
There are real people who are like, that's what they like.
And I feel like there might've been an earlier one, but I feel like Ted Bundy is
like the earliest and most famous one, like in a modern era.
Yeah, I haven't seen that one.
I'll have to check it after.
I don't want to watch, but I'll have to check the summary.
By the way, I said the film was nominated for one Oscar.
I think they said it was nominated.
I'll have to double check.
I'll get back to that on the next episode.
It's still a good company.
Yeah, I mean, it's a good movie, but it does raise a good question.
I mean, people want authenticity.
People want to be attracted to a story.
I think a lot of things are just better in fantasy than in real life.
And people are, I think people realize that later rather than sooner because
people have like this fascination, like this obsession with a lot of these shows.
But I mean, that's interesting.
Like you said that they're, I think you said like sexually attracted.
Is that what you used?
There, yeah, there are definitely certain communities you could find on the
internet.
I have not particularly seeped them out, but I am aware of them.
So I am definitely aware of them as well.
I mean, you can pretty much find anything on the internet.
I mean, if you, if you look deep enough, you'll find.
communities for everyone and everything, good or bad, and everything beyond that.
And if you go even, go on.
Go ahead, go ahead.
I was just gonna say like the last point is like, if you go to the dark web, then
you'll find even more, but I personally haven't been there.
I don't feel like going.
No, well, I feel like that's a good way to put yourself on a list, but.
Yeah, that's true.
The reason I bring up the whole being attracted to killers thing is.
I think we have a fascination with killers and it can manifest in a few different
ways.
I don't know if it's just like watching somebody spiral out of control or just
watching somebody, you know, ignore the rules of society and just do whatever they
want or the excitement of watching someone try and, you know, literally get away with
murder, all these things.
Like, I'm sure there's multiple, something about it is just.
fascinates a large amount of us.
And I'd be lying if I said that wasn't me sometimes.
Because it's, it's, it's interesting and bringing it back to true crime, like a lot
of the science and technical aspects of it, I think are very interesting.
One of like the first series I listened to years ago,
had something to do with some rural town.
They found a, like, there was like a barrel out in the woods and, you know, it
was human remains.
And this was a case that was cold for like 20 or 30 years.
And, you know, the most of it was about the, you know, how can we figure this out?
It wasn't, very little was about the actual.
crime itself.
And that's what I thought was interesting.
The technical, the pursuit of it, the...
You know, the...
The chase?
Yeah, well, just, you know, the work of...
the forensics and all that stuff.
But I don't know, the fascination manifests itself in so many different
ways.
And I'm not a trained psychologist, so I can't break down the exact reasons.
But it's I think it's just something we're stuck with as a species.
That's a really good point to end on is that I think it depends on what angle you
look at true crime from and and like why you watch it.
So.
For example, there were a lot of shows in the late 90s, early 2000s that did true
crime and they weren't really focused on sensationalism but rather on the
forensics.
Because that was new information.
I mean it wasn't super new but it was gaining popularity like DNA and forensics,
NCIS and all that, CSI.
And people were fascinated about how you could catch criminals with this new
technology.
But yeah.
With that being said, that's my final point.
I don't know if you got anything you want to add to that.
I think I wrapped it up.
Alright, there you have it.
Thanks so much for listening.
Take care, enjoy, and we'll see you all in the next one.
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