1 00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:01,620 Speaker 2: Welcome to Honest Money. 2 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:05,910 I'm your host, Anja, and today's episode is brought to you by Hardblock. 3 00:00:11,058 --> 00:00:14,178 Scott: Hello, welcome back to another episode of Honest Money. 4 00:00:14,178 --> 00:00:16,518 Joining me today is Scott Phillips. 5 00:00:16,548 --> 00:00:21,438 He is the CIO or the Chief Investment Officer at Motley Fool. 6 00:00:21,768 --> 00:00:23,538 Uh, welcome to Honest Money Scott 7 00:00:24,168 --> 00:00:24,408 Anya. 8 00:00:24,408 --> 00:00:25,278 Thank you for having me, man. 9 00:00:25,278 --> 00:00:26,158 I'm looking forward to our chat. 10 00:00:26,883 --> 00:00:27,633 Anja: Me too. 11 00:00:27,633 --> 00:00:28,353 Me too. 12 00:00:28,653 --> 00:00:30,153 I, yeah. 13 00:00:30,153 --> 00:00:33,603 I really wanted to have you on, because you are one of those rare 14 00:00:33,603 --> 00:00:36,183 people who have done the work. 15 00:00:36,453 --> 00:00:40,293 You've read some books on Bitcoin and you're still not all that convinced. 16 00:00:40,533 --> 00:00:42,783 Um, so let's talk about that. 17 00:00:42,783 --> 00:00:45,993 What do you, what is, um, I know you were recently on the Australian 18 00:00:46,173 --> 00:00:51,063 Bitcoin Podcast, um, but I'm keen to know, that was about three months ago. 19 00:00:51,123 --> 00:00:55,173 Uh, have there been any updates in, in how you, what you think of Bitcoin now? 20 00:00:56,448 --> 00:00:57,078 Scott: Great question. 21 00:00:57,498 --> 00:01:00,228 Well, also, I do the Monthly Fool Money podcast too with, uh, Andrew Page. 22 00:01:00,228 --> 00:01:02,088 We've had on the, on the show, we talked a lot about it there too. 23 00:01:02,088 --> 00:01:05,418 So we, we, if people want updated thought generally they can get them there as well. 24 00:01:06,708 --> 00:01:10,698 My, so my thought effectively about Bitcoin, I've been through the Ringer. 25 00:01:10,698 --> 00:01:14,328 I owned some Bitcoin years ago and the sold, I bought it because when 26 00:01:14,358 --> 00:01:15,138 I first kicked off I was like. 27 00:01:16,038 --> 00:01:18,498 You kinda have to do it to, to learn about it, right? 28 00:01:18,498 --> 00:01:18,978 To be part of it. 29 00:01:18,978 --> 00:01:20,238 So you got the process and all that kind of stuff. 30 00:01:20,238 --> 00:01:23,088 So I did that and then I sold it after that and kind of just 31 00:01:23,088 --> 00:01:23,958 watched from the sidelines. 32 00:01:23,958 --> 00:01:27,528 And I've never, I don't think it's, I don't think I'm rewriting history. 33 00:01:27,768 --> 00:01:29,298 I don't I've ever been a bitcoin bear. 34 00:01:29,838 --> 00:01:33,773 What I have been for the longest time, and still remain to some degree, is a Bitcoin, 35 00:01:34,803 --> 00:01:39,918 i've never an agnostic, but someone who recognizes or tries to recognize 36 00:01:39,918 --> 00:01:41,598 the opportunity, but also the risk. 37 00:01:42,288 --> 00:01:46,923 And for an investor like me, try and follow Warren Buffet's lead 38 00:01:46,923 --> 00:01:50,043 of, of having a very, very large, a large two hard pile, right? 39 00:01:50,043 --> 00:01:53,883 So there's stuff I know I like, there's stuff I know I don't like, and there's 40 00:01:53,883 --> 00:01:56,373 a massive pile of stuff, which is just, and this I'm talking about shares. 41 00:01:56,583 --> 00:01:57,783 It's like, uh, I don't know. 42 00:01:58,038 --> 00:01:59,763 I, I don't, I don't have enough, strong enough conviction. 43 00:01:59,763 --> 00:02:02,583 I don't know the answer, strong, strongly enough to be 44 00:02:02,583 --> 00:02:04,788 prepared to make an investment. 45 00:02:05,448 --> 00:02:05,898 Mm-hmm. 46 00:02:05,898 --> 00:02:09,378 And I did buy some Bitcoin, what was it last October, I think it 47 00:02:09,378 --> 00:02:14,958 was, and it ki the, the, the thesis in my head is still unproven. 48 00:02:15,018 --> 00:02:16,728 And so it, it's a very small position for me. 49 00:02:17,328 --> 00:02:21,978 And it largely just simply comes down to, for all of the technological, for all 50 00:02:21,978 --> 00:02:23,988 of the monetary, what's the right word? 51 00:02:23,988 --> 00:02:27,618 Benefits or positives or logic or any of that sort of stuff. 52 00:02:27,618 --> 00:02:27,918 Right. 53 00:02:28,848 --> 00:02:33,648 Only in ever, to my mind comes down to, yeah, but will people do it? 54 00:02:34,368 --> 00:02:35,808 And that's a future thing, right? 55 00:02:35,808 --> 00:02:39,168 And I don't believe anyone who says, of course they will, because you can't know. 56 00:02:39,198 --> 00:02:40,008 No one can know. 57 00:02:40,278 --> 00:02:42,198 You can say, I think they will be because, and that's completely 58 00:02:42,198 --> 00:02:44,868 cool is I think they won't be because, and that's completely cool. 59 00:02:44,928 --> 00:02:46,458 And same with Coles and Woolies. 60 00:02:46,878 --> 00:02:47,898 Will people keep up Woolies? 61 00:02:48,198 --> 00:02:48,888 That's a pretty good chance. 62 00:02:48,888 --> 00:02:49,158 They will. 63 00:02:49,158 --> 00:02:49,458 Right? 64 00:02:49,488 --> 00:02:50,118 Definitely. 65 00:02:50,118 --> 00:02:51,288 No, pretty good chance. 66 00:02:51,558 --> 00:02:54,468 Um, with Bitcoin, the simple question for me is one of adoption. 67 00:02:54,778 --> 00:02:59,548 It is simply a matter of, we have a technology that is super cool, 68 00:03:00,268 --> 00:03:04,678 we have a solution to broken money, which is super cool. 69 00:03:05,968 --> 00:03:09,208 Neither of those things mean necessarily we will take those things up in my 70 00:03:09,208 --> 00:03:13,708 mind, and so it's just a question of if this peters out, ends up being 71 00:03:13,708 --> 00:03:16,133 some kind of sideline thing that some people use for some purposes. 72 00:03:17,343 --> 00:03:18,363 Then that's all it does. 73 00:03:18,663 --> 00:03:20,073 If it replaces money entirely. 74 00:03:20,103 --> 00:03:20,673 That's what it does. 75 00:03:21,123 --> 00:03:23,373 The range of those outcomes is just massive and there's 76 00:03:23,373 --> 00:03:24,903 no way to know the future. 77 00:03:25,173 --> 00:03:29,223 You can use some indicators to say, I think this is happening. 78 00:03:29,613 --> 00:03:31,293 Um, and why are you kind of bored? 79 00:03:31,293 --> 00:03:31,563 Eventually? 80 00:03:31,563 --> 00:03:35,133 Just to get back to your question, was there seems to be enough 81 00:03:35,133 --> 00:03:37,173 critical mass of adoption now. 82 00:03:37,563 --> 00:03:37,743 Anja: Mm-hmm. 83 00:03:37,863 --> 00:03:41,588 Scott: For me to be comfortable to start to get some exposure to bitcoin. 84 00:03:42,963 --> 00:03:44,853 Not to replace my portfolio with Bitcoin. 85 00:03:44,853 --> 00:03:46,503 It's a tiny position percentage wise. 86 00:03:46,863 --> 00:03:52,533 Um, but it was kind of like a first, first step into that world based 87 00:03:52,533 --> 00:03:58,893 on the adoption by institutions, governments, larger investors, uh, 88 00:03:58,893 --> 00:04:03,093 the, the very fact that it's sustaining itself after this period of time. 89 00:04:03,603 --> 00:04:06,483 Um, when I say nothing about price, though, by the way, I mean price is 90 00:04:06,483 --> 00:04:09,003 to some degree, indicator of Bitcoin's popularity for reasons that I'm sure 91 00:04:09,003 --> 00:04:09,843 you know, when you listeners know. 92 00:04:09,843 --> 00:04:14,013 But broadly, it's, it's all about, for me, the question of adoption. 93 00:04:14,193 --> 00:04:18,153 I think it is more likely now than I did 3, 5, 7 years ago. 94 00:04:18,333 --> 00:04:19,568 That's why I bought some last October. 95 00:04:20,523 --> 00:04:24,183 Anja: Yeah, well if you bought last October, you'd be down. 96 00:04:24,633 --> 00:04:24,903 Scott, 97 00:04:24,903 --> 00:04:25,383 Scott: I've done a lot. 98 00:04:25,863 --> 00:04:26,493 I've done a lot. 99 00:04:26,853 --> 00:04:28,953 I didn't quite pick the top, but almost picked the top. 100 00:04:28,953 --> 00:04:34,533 So I will tell you, my US dollar buy price was $106,000, uh, at, 101 00:04:34,533 --> 00:04:36,153 at that point, but I was 125. 102 00:04:36,153 --> 00:04:41,643 I think I, I bought 106 and yes, ever since I, I was the capitulation trade. 103 00:04:42,213 --> 00:04:43,923 But if I'm, if I'm telling you I'm buying more Bitcoin, you 104 00:04:43,923 --> 00:04:45,963 should sell yours and wait till I sell and you can buy back again. 105 00:04:47,193 --> 00:04:47,403 Yeah. 106 00:04:47,403 --> 00:04:49,623 No, I, I, it's been a horrible experience thus far. 107 00:04:49,623 --> 00:04:51,573 I look, I've been investing for decades, right? 108 00:04:51,573 --> 00:04:53,553 So I'm used to big falls and just, it sucks. 109 00:04:53,553 --> 00:04:55,923 I'm like, okay, that sucks, but it just is what it is. 110 00:04:56,943 --> 00:04:57,963 Anja: That is so funny. 111 00:04:58,203 --> 00:05:02,193 But you also said, if I heard correctly, that you bought previously, uh, 112 00:05:02,193 --> 00:05:04,533 bought and then sold the first round. 113 00:05:04,533 --> 00:05:08,433 Did you, so did you make money break even or lose money that time as well 114 00:05:09,603 --> 00:05:10,143 Scott: for the first time? 115 00:05:10,473 --> 00:05:11,253 I don't remember actually. 116 00:05:11,253 --> 00:05:11,433 Oh, no. 117 00:05:11,433 --> 00:05:13,053 I made some money the first time, actually made some good money. 118 00:05:13,413 --> 00:05:13,833 Anja: Okay. 119 00:05:14,328 --> 00:05:17,778 Scott: And had I kept those Bitcoin, I be, have made more money since then. 120 00:05:17,778 --> 00:05:18,108 So yeah. 121 00:05:18,108 --> 00:05:19,338 It's a, it's a, it's a horrible story. 122 00:05:19,338 --> 00:05:20,658 It was, it was. 123 00:05:20,958 --> 00:05:23,148 I literally, I've done, I won't disclose the barista perch the first 124 00:05:23,148 --> 00:05:24,048 time I bought a hundred bucks worth. 125 00:05:24,048 --> 00:05:24,198 Right. 126 00:05:24,198 --> 00:05:27,258 So just, it just was like, you know, not, and it was, and it was literally 127 00:05:27,258 --> 00:05:30,978 at the time to have gone the people, it was getting popular as the investment 128 00:05:30,978 --> 00:05:32,388 advisor, people were asking me about it. 129 00:05:32,898 --> 00:05:35,358 I had a view, which I still maintain. 130 00:05:35,358 --> 00:05:36,978 The, the, the, the dial has shifted. 131 00:05:36,978 --> 00:05:40,158 But the, the question has largely been the same question with just adoption. 132 00:05:41,088 --> 00:05:42,708 But I bought some just to kind of be part of the process. 133 00:05:43,638 --> 00:05:45,048 Set up an account, do all that kinda stuff. 134 00:05:45,048 --> 00:05:48,648 It was only with that online exchange, just a hundred bucks, just so I could 135 00:05:48,648 --> 00:05:51,948 literally go through the process and know what it was like held, had a, a wallet on. 136 00:05:51,948 --> 00:05:52,638 On that exchange. 137 00:05:52,638 --> 00:05:53,598 I closed it out. 138 00:05:54,258 --> 00:05:56,118 I dunno how many years ago it was, but yeah, just, just, it was, 139 00:05:56,118 --> 00:06:01,218 it was, it was just to get some experience of being a holder rather 140 00:06:01,218 --> 00:06:02,808 than as an investment in itself. 141 00:06:03,078 --> 00:06:05,028 Uh, and it was more just the responsibility as an investment 142 00:06:05,028 --> 00:06:07,578 advisor at that point, I thought I have to at least have weighted 143 00:06:07,578 --> 00:06:09,198 into it and like everything, right? 144 00:06:09,408 --> 00:06:10,788 If you own some, you tend more interested in it. 145 00:06:11,238 --> 00:06:13,278 Uh, there are some great investors who have portfolios there with 146 00:06:13,458 --> 00:06:14,628 3 0 400 companies in them. 147 00:06:15,103 --> 00:06:16,903 And really, really, really, really, really small portions. 148 00:06:17,233 --> 00:06:19,123 But the idea, they, they buy a little bit, so they kind of, 149 00:06:19,153 --> 00:06:20,203 they've got skin in the game. 150 00:06:20,323 --> 00:06:21,883 It just makes you more interested, more engaged. 151 00:06:21,958 --> 00:06:23,263 It, it makes you do the work. 152 00:06:23,593 --> 00:06:25,303 Um, even if they ever stays that small. 153 00:06:25,303 --> 00:06:26,293 That was kind of their idea. 154 00:06:26,293 --> 00:06:29,413 And for me, I took Bitcoin the same way of, okay, if I get involved, if I 155 00:06:29,413 --> 00:06:32,803 start to go down that path, I can learn a little bit more about the asset from, 156 00:06:32,953 --> 00:06:37,993 not the outside, not entirely the diamond hands inside, but just that idea of, uh, 157 00:06:37,993 --> 00:06:40,693 a little bit of exposure just to get, get some experience and some knowledge. 158 00:06:41,223 --> 00:06:41,583 Anja: Hmm. 159 00:06:41,973 --> 00:06:47,613 Yeah, no, that, that's super interesting because to me it's like knowing that 160 00:06:47,613 --> 00:06:51,963 there's so many people that, um, are in it kind of for ideological reasons, 161 00:06:51,963 --> 00:06:56,613 just almost makes me confident that it's never gonna go to zero because 162 00:06:56,613 --> 00:07:01,503 some people like I irrational when it comes to when he comes to it. 163 00:07:01,833 --> 00:07:02,583 Um, a hundred percent. 164 00:07:02,823 --> 00:07:07,383 But I'm very curious to know, like, has your perception of Bitcoin shifted? 165 00:07:08,193 --> 00:07:08,583 Um. 166 00:07:09,423 --> 00:07:13,533 Before and after reading those two books that you've read, which is Broken Money 167 00:07:13,533 --> 00:07:19,353 and the Bitcoin standard, um, or was, were you always kind of the same even 168 00:07:19,353 --> 00:07:21,183 before, before you read those books? 169 00:07:22,593 --> 00:07:23,523 Scott: That's a very good question. 170 00:07:23,823 --> 00:07:26,223 Um, that's, I haven't, I haven't been asked that question before. 171 00:07:26,223 --> 00:07:26,943 It's a really good question. 172 00:07:28,113 --> 00:07:32,373 I suspect subconsciously it made me more prepared to buy. 173 00:07:32,973 --> 00:07:33,783 Consciously, no. 174 00:07:34,053 --> 00:07:36,363 But if I'm honest about what we know about the human brain, 175 00:07:36,363 --> 00:07:37,893 subconsciously, probably, yes. 176 00:07:38,223 --> 00:07:40,473 Um, they say you become more, you become like the five people 177 00:07:40,473 --> 00:07:41,523 you spend most time with, right? 178 00:07:41,763 --> 00:07:44,583 I suspect reading those books relatively quick succession, I think it might 179 00:07:44,583 --> 00:07:45,603 have been one or two in between. 180 00:07:46,203 --> 00:07:49,803 I, it, it, it gets in your head, um, as an idea or as a 181 00:07:49,803 --> 00:07:51,218 concept or as a, as a thought. 182 00:07:51,248 --> 00:07:54,968 And so probably, yeah, I suspect I was, again, not, not consciously if I said, 183 00:07:54,968 --> 00:07:56,378 you know, did I decide at that point? 184 00:07:56,378 --> 00:07:57,038 No, absolutely not. 185 00:07:57,068 --> 00:08:00,068 Did did I read the book and go, I really due to No, absolutely not. 186 00:08:00,608 --> 00:08:03,758 Um, and it's why I will direct your listeners if you don't mind, 187 00:08:03,758 --> 00:08:06,818 just to, Andrew and I did two episodes of MO for Money recently. 188 00:08:07,148 --> 00:08:09,608 Uh, and we did two sound Money episodes and we actually mentioned 189 00:08:09,608 --> 00:08:12,248 Bitcoin maybe once or twice in about three hours of conversation. 190 00:08:12,848 --> 00:08:18,003 And I say that only to make the point that those books were interesting 191 00:08:18,003 --> 00:08:20,433 about the history of money, which I thought was fascinating. 192 00:08:20,823 --> 00:08:23,163 Um, and I knew a bit about it, but it was a really nice one. 193 00:08:23,973 --> 00:08:28,533 The concept of sound money is fascinating and just a really big, 194 00:08:28,533 --> 00:08:29,523 you know, mess with your head, right? 195 00:08:29,883 --> 00:08:32,283 Um, and it, and a kind of really different paradigm what we think 196 00:08:32,283 --> 00:08:33,543 we're used to now these days. 197 00:08:33,903 --> 00:08:34,893 So that was really useful. 198 00:08:35,643 --> 00:08:38,583 Did it make me think Bitcoin was going to be the solution? 199 00:08:40,443 --> 00:08:43,413 Because to some degree the adoption problem is one of critical 200 00:08:43,413 --> 00:08:45,063 mass and it's one of inertia. 201 00:08:45,573 --> 00:08:50,583 And you've gotta get to a certain tipping point before you can replace. 202 00:08:51,123 --> 00:08:55,173 Sound money doesn't matter unless, well, sorry, from a Bitcoin perspective, 203 00:08:55,503 --> 00:08:58,113 sound money doesn't matter unless, because it's adopted by everybody and 204 00:08:58,113 --> 00:09:01,353 becomes the defacto standard up to that point it's just a really cool 205 00:09:01,353 --> 00:09:02,583 technological way to exchange value. 206 00:09:02,673 --> 00:09:04,233 Now that's, that's worth a lot in itself. 207 00:09:04,968 --> 00:09:07,608 But, but that doesn't necessarily venture ideological. 208 00:09:07,698 --> 00:09:09,288 It doesn't get us to that point necessarily. 209 00:09:09,408 --> 00:09:12,888 It may well be that Bitcoin becomes a really valuable asset, but we 210 00:09:12,888 --> 00:09:13,848 never actually have sound money. 211 00:09:14,388 --> 00:09:16,428 It just ha it just sits on the side as something different. 212 00:09:16,428 --> 00:09:17,988 More like gold has been for centuries, right? 213 00:09:18,258 --> 00:09:21,648 Gold is a sound type of money to some degree, but it doesn't replace 214 00:09:21,648 --> 00:09:23,418 the system, the broken money system. 215 00:09:23,778 --> 00:09:25,553 Um, it's the type, the title of the book. 216 00:09:26,358 --> 00:09:28,098 So did it change me? 217 00:09:28,218 --> 00:09:31,728 You know, it probably made me more comfortable with the concepts I suspect. 218 00:09:32,268 --> 00:09:36,078 Um, broken money in particular and all does a great job of talking 219 00:09:36,078 --> 00:09:39,258 about some of the ways that Bitcoin can be used and is being used, and 220 00:09:39,258 --> 00:09:40,488 that was fascinating eyeopening. 221 00:09:41,028 --> 00:09:45,138 Um, so yeah, I'm sure it made me more comfortable with the idea, uh, some 222 00:09:45,138 --> 00:09:48,588 of the worked kind of objections and, and the kind of response to those 223 00:09:48,588 --> 00:09:53,418 objections they were probably useful to have gone through, um, logically, um. 224 00:09:54,483 --> 00:09:56,558 And Bitcoin sounds a funny old book. 225 00:09:56,563 --> 00:09:59,313 Um, it's got, it's got some outlandish claims in it, and 226 00:09:59,318 --> 00:10:01,623 I, I, I, I, I loved half of it. 227 00:10:02,043 --> 00:10:03,573 The other half of it I was wasting my time. 228 00:10:03,573 --> 00:10:04,923 It was just ideological nonsense. 229 00:10:05,133 --> 00:10:07,413 Um, uh, so yeah, I mean, yeah. 230 00:10:07,473 --> 00:10:07,983 Yes, good. 231 00:10:07,983 --> 00:10:08,463 Really good books. 232 00:10:08,463 --> 00:10:10,473 I would recommend people read 'em just to get an understanding. 233 00:10:10,683 --> 00:10:12,243 Um, keep those two things in mind. 234 00:10:12,483 --> 00:10:16,443 The only thing I will say is investing is logic psychology, right? 235 00:10:16,893 --> 00:10:18,153 I mean, it matters at some level. 236 00:10:18,333 --> 00:10:19,203 Money's psychology. 237 00:10:19,203 --> 00:10:21,093 It's all, it's all trust and stories we tell ourselves. 238 00:10:21,513 --> 00:10:22,533 The only thing I will say about. 239 00:10:22,968 --> 00:10:23,838 Sound money. 240 00:10:23,868 --> 00:10:29,778 A broken money in particular was if you set up the objections and then respond to 241 00:10:29,778 --> 00:10:34,338 them, you can potentially, not saying Lynn did this at all, but you can set up the 242 00:10:34,338 --> 00:10:35,508 objections that you have the answers to. 243 00:10:35,928 --> 00:10:37,818 People say these five things, here's the answer, these five things. 244 00:10:38,268 --> 00:10:38,418 Anja: Yeah. 245 00:10:38,418 --> 00:10:40,128 It's like almost leading the witness. 246 00:10:40,128 --> 00:10:40,578 Is that 247 00:10:40,578 --> 00:10:40,968 Scott: right? 248 00:10:40,968 --> 00:10:42,858 So, and which questions weren't asked and answered. 249 00:10:43,308 --> 00:10:44,658 Um, you know, don't talk about that. 250 00:10:44,718 --> 00:10:45,828 Just talk with these objections you overcome. 251 00:10:45,828 --> 00:10:47,238 We'll see, see, I overcome all the objections. 252 00:10:47,238 --> 00:10:47,568 You're fine. 253 00:10:47,568 --> 00:10:49,248 Now I'm not saying, I'm not saying she did that at all. 254 00:10:49,248 --> 00:10:50,148 I promise you I'm not. 255 00:10:51,573 --> 00:10:52,563 'cause I'm a skeptic at heart. 256 00:10:52,803 --> 00:10:54,333 Um, not a acidic, but a skeptic. 257 00:10:54,453 --> 00:10:57,693 I did kind of go, am I just being That's a great, great analogy. 258 00:10:58,083 --> 00:11:00,393 Um, is a witness being led here and maybe, yes. 259 00:11:00,393 --> 00:11:02,013 So keep that in mind if you're gonna read it. 260 00:11:02,253 --> 00:11:05,973 Um, just make sure you are not looking for confirmation bias too, 261 00:11:05,973 --> 00:11:06,873 because that's the other thing, right? 262 00:11:06,873 --> 00:11:07,383 If you, you cut. 263 00:11:07,383 --> 00:11:08,043 Start with that. 264 00:11:08,313 --> 00:11:09,183 You look Yeah, exactly. 265 00:11:09,183 --> 00:11:12,273 See, I told you that's are are you, are you hearing the questions 266 00:11:12,273 --> 00:11:15,063 that aren't being asked or, or being highlighted though? 267 00:11:15,063 --> 00:11:16,023 They're just worth thinking about. 268 00:11:16,023 --> 00:11:16,323 Yes. 269 00:11:16,323 --> 00:11:16,533 Good. 270 00:11:16,533 --> 00:11:16,978 Really good book. 271 00:11:17,703 --> 00:11:18,633 A broken Bitcoin. 272 00:11:18,633 --> 00:11:21,973 Sanders had half brilliant, half ordinary, um, but both well worth ready. 273 00:11:25,173 --> 00:11:28,533 Speaker 3: Quick one for the Aussies listening hard block is offering 274 00:11:28,533 --> 00:11:31,233 a $10 signup discount right now. 275 00:11:31,473 --> 00:11:34,983 And if you're with another exchange, ask yourself this. 276 00:11:35,313 --> 00:11:38,943 Are they Australia's longest running Bitcoin only exchange? 277 00:11:39,153 --> 00:11:41,583 Because if not, maybe it's time to switch. 278 00:11:42,153 --> 00:11:48,993 Head to hard block.com au slash join slash Honest Money and 279 00:11:48,993 --> 00:11:50,913 start stacking stats today. 280 00:11:51,743 --> 00:11:52,223 Anja: I love it. 281 00:11:52,223 --> 00:11:52,523 Yeah. 282 00:11:52,523 --> 00:11:56,663 I, the, the Bitcoin stand was the book that kind of orange peeled me. 283 00:11:56,723 --> 00:11:57,413 Um, but Right. 284 00:11:57,413 --> 00:11:57,773 Yeah. 285 00:11:57,773 --> 00:12:01,943 The broken money is the one that you usually, uh, recommend to most people, 286 00:12:01,943 --> 00:12:05,303 particularly if someone is very, very thorough and doesn't want to be told 287 00:12:05,303 --> 00:12:07,583 what to think because I think she does. 288 00:12:07,583 --> 00:12:07,883 Yeah. 289 00:12:07,883 --> 00:12:10,973 I think she does a good job of like weighing up different 290 00:12:11,033 --> 00:12:12,683 theories and saying, well. 291 00:12:12,723 --> 00:12:15,843 This group of people believes in this, and this group of people believes in 292 00:12:15,843 --> 00:12:18,003 that and, and kind of helps guide you. 293 00:12:18,003 --> 00:12:19,053 But yeah, I do agree. 294 00:12:19,053 --> 00:12:22,863 There is definitely some guidance there, whether intentional, unintentional, 295 00:12:22,863 --> 00:12:28,703 I think we all, we all tend to do it, but yeah, even like my sinister, not 296 00:12:28,703 --> 00:12:33,203 sinister, but my, um, hidden agenda for inviting you in this podcast is I wanted 297 00:12:33,203 --> 00:12:39,413 a timestamp because I am pretty confident that one day you're going to like Bitcoin. 298 00:12:39,563 --> 00:12:42,923 So I just wanted to document this journey and be like, you 299 00:12:42,923 --> 00:12:46,073 know, this is Scott in 2026. 300 00:12:47,548 --> 00:12:47,838 Scott: Nice. 301 00:12:47,838 --> 00:12:47,998 Nice. 302 00:12:48,418 --> 00:12:48,918 Anja: And, and, yeah. 303 00:12:50,708 --> 00:12:51,638 Scott: I do, I do like Bitcoin. 304 00:12:51,818 --> 00:12:55,778 So this is where, and that's what's really, I'm one of those relatively few 305 00:12:55,778 --> 00:12:59,383 people, frankly, who like Bitcoin a bit because you either love it or you hate it. 306 00:12:59,383 --> 00:12:59,393 Right? 307 00:13:00,698 --> 00:13:01,568 I'm, I'm in a phone box. 308 00:13:01,598 --> 00:13:02,528 I'm in a phone box by myself. 309 00:13:02,528 --> 00:13:06,068 When I have a meeting of the Bitcoin slightly appreciators club there, 310 00:13:06,068 --> 00:13:07,298 there's only me in that phone box, right? 311 00:13:07,298 --> 00:13:09,878 There's nobody else, 'cause you either hate it or you love it. 312 00:13:09,878 --> 00:13:10,148 Right? 313 00:13:10,448 --> 00:13:12,038 And I, I don't mean that in any arrogant way, it's just 314 00:13:12,038 --> 00:13:12,788 where I, where my head's at. 315 00:13:12,788 --> 00:13:14,048 So I like enough to have bought something. 316 00:13:14,048 --> 00:13:15,698 So the first one I bought it because I was curious. 317 00:13:16,148 --> 00:13:18,428 This one I bought it because I think there's a good chance. 318 00:13:18,488 --> 00:13:18,968 Ah, good chance. 319 00:13:19,928 --> 00:13:23,408 There's a probabilistically more likely than not chance that it 320 00:13:23,408 --> 00:13:26,018 becomes more valuable over time because of that increased adoption. 321 00:13:26,258 --> 00:13:28,418 And so it's the increased adoption curve that I'm looking at. 322 00:13:28,898 --> 00:13:30,788 I think Bitcoin is spectacular technologically. 323 00:13:31,058 --> 00:13:32,708 I think the idea of sound money is brilliant. 324 00:13:33,698 --> 00:13:35,648 Does that mean Bitcoin's going to be successful? 325 00:13:35,678 --> 00:13:37,448 No, not necessarily, right. 326 00:13:37,448 --> 00:13:40,718 I'm saying it's not, i'm saying it's not necessarily going to, the question is how 327 00:13:40,718 --> 00:13:44,468 many people adopt it, how quickly and when it gets to maturity, what price is that? 328 00:13:44,948 --> 00:13:48,188 And maybe it's a million dollars, maybe it's $10 million, maybe it's $14. 329 00:13:48,548 --> 00:13:49,568 It's somewhere, right? 330 00:13:49,568 --> 00:13:53,558 And so if it goes to, if it goes to a hundred, which is replaces money, 331 00:13:54,008 --> 00:13:54,863 then it's worth squillions more. 332 00:13:55,733 --> 00:13:56,483 Will we get there? 333 00:13:56,543 --> 00:13:58,283 I dunno, how close will we get to that? 334 00:13:58,283 --> 00:13:58,793 I dunno. 335 00:13:59,153 --> 00:14:01,733 And so for me it's, and all investing raised probability. 336 00:14:01,733 --> 00:14:04,493 So that's the other thing is when I think about Bitcoin, I think about 337 00:14:04,493 --> 00:14:05,633 the same context as Woolworths. 338 00:14:05,723 --> 00:14:08,663 And I say to myself, is wool's gonna be around in 10 years time? 339 00:14:08,663 --> 00:14:09,263 Probably. 340 00:14:09,803 --> 00:14:11,693 Is it gonna be some more baked beans in 10 years time? 341 00:14:11,753 --> 00:14:12,353 Yeah, probably. 342 00:14:12,893 --> 00:14:14,213 Um, is it gonna make more money at that point? 343 00:14:14,273 --> 00:14:14,993 Probably, yeah. 344 00:14:15,053 --> 00:14:18,863 Now, in some version of the future, Amazon, uh, and Costco take over 345 00:14:18,863 --> 00:14:20,753 the Australian retail market, Woolies doesn't exist exist as 346 00:14:20,753 --> 00:14:22,433 a, as a small portion, right? 347 00:14:22,523 --> 00:14:26,573 Or, it is successful and it's a bit successful, but the price 348 00:14:26,573 --> 00:14:29,363 today is too high relative to what that future success looks like. 349 00:14:29,363 --> 00:14:33,173 So Woolies is 30, I'm gonna say 32 or 33 bucks at the moment, something like that. 350 00:14:33,743 --> 00:14:38,063 If in five years time it exists and it's bigger and people shop 351 00:14:38,063 --> 00:14:41,963 there and the promise of Woolies has played out the shares at 25. 352 00:14:42,713 --> 00:14:45,443 I will have lost money even though I was right about what the future looks like. 353 00:14:45,743 --> 00:14:47,723 So that, again, I just, I say that in the context. 354 00:14:47,723 --> 00:14:50,243 I know most of this is a bitcoiners rather than share investors, but 355 00:14:50,483 --> 00:14:52,733 from my lens, I'm a probabilistic. 356 00:14:52,973 --> 00:14:54,743 I think you can only invest probabilistically, right? 357 00:14:54,893 --> 00:14:57,203 And so I, I, the companies I own, I own Woolies, by the way, 358 00:14:57,293 --> 00:14:58,703 the companies I own, I own. 359 00:14:58,733 --> 00:15:01,763 'cause I believe they're likely to be worth more in future, not because I'm 360 00:15:01,763 --> 00:15:04,573 sure they will colonize the world. 361 00:15:04,753 --> 00:15:06,553 And so I'm taking the same approach with Bitcoin, which is 362 00:15:06,553 --> 00:15:09,883 why I bought some recently, or you know, was it four months ago? 363 00:15:10,123 --> 00:15:11,173 Um, almost five months ago. 364 00:15:11,293 --> 00:15:14,173 Was, was, was specifically that, that reason was, I think now 365 00:15:14,173 --> 00:15:17,593 it's more likely than not that it's worth more, how much more, I 366 00:15:17,593 --> 00:15:19,663 dunno, colonize the world, I dunno. 367 00:15:20,023 --> 00:15:22,603 But given the adoption, given the increased usage, given 368 00:15:22,603 --> 00:15:23,653 all the stuff that we know. 369 00:15:24,173 --> 00:15:27,473 It seems that adoption will continue to increase just as 370 00:15:27,673 --> 00:15:28,733 Coles sales will continue to grow. 371 00:15:28,943 --> 00:15:32,483 And that's the, in my head, that's the, that's the methodology used as an investor 372 00:15:32,723 --> 00:15:35,933 and that's why Bitcoin made it inside my portfolio with just a little bit, just 373 00:15:35,933 --> 00:15:37,493 for now, I wouldn't be surprised either. 374 00:15:37,493 --> 00:15:40,913 I knew if we, if I buy more in a month, two months, five months, 12 months, 375 00:15:41,093 --> 00:15:44,693 two years, I, I may well, absolutely, if the adoption continues and my 376 00:15:44,693 --> 00:15:46,163 confidence in that adoption continues. 377 00:15:46,628 --> 00:15:47,228 That's what I'm going for. 378 00:15:47,228 --> 00:15:50,258 But, but really, really clear, and this is unusual for many people who own Bitcoin. 379 00:15:50,858 --> 00:15:51,758 I'm not there for the mission. 380 00:15:52,148 --> 00:15:52,538 I'm not there. 381 00:15:52,538 --> 00:15:56,828 'cause I believe that it will completely colonize everything, become sound, money, 382 00:15:56,828 --> 00:15:58,388 replace currencies, all that stuff. 383 00:15:58,718 --> 00:16:01,478 Maybe it will, I'm not saying it won't, but I'm not in it for that. 384 00:16:01,628 --> 00:16:03,848 It's not an end game of zero or a hundred. 385 00:16:04,448 --> 00:16:05,978 It's just like, eh, a bit like gold. 386 00:16:06,008 --> 00:16:08,678 I think we'll probably have, you know, use more of it in future. 387 00:16:08,828 --> 00:16:09,878 More people will want it in future. 388 00:16:09,878 --> 00:16:12,818 And if they do it worth more, that's my entire thesis that the 389 00:16:12,818 --> 00:16:14,318 adoption first, second, and third. 390 00:16:15,268 --> 00:16:15,893 Anja: Yeah, yeah. 391 00:16:15,953 --> 00:16:18,173 No, I can, I can certainly relate to that. 392 00:16:18,203 --> 00:16:22,313 Um, obviously you're a lot more skeptical than I am, but I can 393 00:16:22,313 --> 00:16:26,363 certainly rate, because I, I sometimes think as well, like if I had known 394 00:16:26,363 --> 00:16:30,773 what I know about Bitcoin now, say 2014, would I have bought some then? 395 00:16:31,133 --> 00:16:32,093 Probably not. 396 00:16:32,093 --> 00:16:37,458 Because yeah, I think everyone has their own frame in terms of how 397 00:16:37,458 --> 00:16:39,348 long something needs to be around. 398 00:16:39,348 --> 00:16:45,348 So it, while I am an early adopter, I definitely would not have felt 399 00:16:45,348 --> 00:16:49,368 comfortable until I saw some of those bigger institutional players come in. 400 00:16:49,548 --> 00:16:53,268 So I kind of feel like, you know, there's that saying you get Bitcoin at the price 401 00:16:53,268 --> 00:16:56,713 you deserve, which sounds a bit, you know, like, everyone guess the price 402 00:16:56,793 --> 00:16:57,153 Scott: I deserve 403 00:16:57,533 --> 00:16:57,753 Anja: it. 404 00:16:57,753 --> 00:17:01,248 It, it sounds a bit mean, but I think it, I think it's more about like. 405 00:17:02,123 --> 00:17:04,103 You know, if you know about something, it's about your 406 00:17:04,103 --> 00:17:05,633 kind of risk tolerance as well. 407 00:17:05,633 --> 00:17:10,403 And for me, you know, my, my cost average is about a hundred thousand. 408 00:17:10,733 --> 00:17:12,683 Um, USD, so like. 409 00:17:13,433 --> 00:17:16,438 I, no or no Australian dollars, so I kind of, that's okay. 410 00:17:16,798 --> 00:17:21,113 I, I bought in, I did some lump sums, IDCA and I kind of rode the 411 00:17:21,113 --> 00:17:22,703 wave up and rode the way down. 412 00:17:22,793 --> 00:17:25,438 And I'm like, just like, okay, I am back to where I started. 413 00:17:25,938 --> 00:17:26,158 So, 414 00:17:26,288 --> 00:17:26,638 Scott: right. 415 00:17:27,058 --> 00:17:27,278 But 416 00:17:27,278 --> 00:17:28,118 Anja: I, that's that investing my, 417 00:17:28,118 --> 00:17:28,638 Scott: that's investing. 418 00:17:30,263 --> 00:17:31,283 Anja: I still like it. 419 00:17:31,313 --> 00:17:37,493 But, um, I know you are a share, uh, like that's your kind of preferred weapon. 420 00:17:37,673 --> 00:17:37,763 Yep. 421 00:17:37,763 --> 00:17:38,483 If you will. 422 00:17:38,813 --> 00:17:39,323 Um. 423 00:17:40,053 --> 00:17:44,433 Does Bitcoin make you kind of appreciate, or does it make you curious about what 424 00:17:44,433 --> 00:17:48,363 Michael Sailor is doing with his, you know, preferreds and, and all of that? 425 00:17:48,873 --> 00:17:51,543 Are you interested in that or is it still a bit too more 426 00:17:51,543 --> 00:17:53,013 like, oh, this is overvalued. 427 00:17:53,013 --> 00:17:55,863 I don't understand this particular product. 428 00:17:55,893 --> 00:17:57,153 It is a bit unique, 429 00:17:58,023 --> 00:17:59,613 Scott: so I like what he's doing. 430 00:17:59,853 --> 00:18:03,423 Um, if he's right in the end, just 'cause that's kind of 431 00:18:03,423 --> 00:18:04,353 all it coming down to, right. 432 00:18:04,353 --> 00:18:05,973 So is it seriously clever? 433 00:18:06,033 --> 00:18:06,813 Yeah, absolutely. 434 00:18:07,743 --> 00:18:08,938 And so that's, it's. 435 00:18:09,803 --> 00:18:12,833 He's, he's found a way to leverage into Bitcoin without using 436 00:18:12,833 --> 00:18:14,303 debt, which is brilliant, right? 437 00:18:14,573 --> 00:18:15,083 Why would you not? 438 00:18:16,193 --> 00:18:16,643 If you're right. 439 00:18:18,068 --> 00:18:21,368 Of course if you are, you know, uh, collecting Beanie Babies or Yoyos 440 00:18:21,398 --> 00:18:23,408 'cause you think that's gonna be the future and you get 'em really, really 441 00:18:23,408 --> 00:18:25,748 cheaply and no one wants to buy Yoyos anymore, it doesn't matter how many 442 00:18:25,748 --> 00:18:26,948 you've got, you've still got Yeah. 443 00:18:26,948 --> 00:18:28,988 Your Yoyo collection's worth nothing or, or close to nothing. 444 00:18:28,988 --> 00:18:29,258 Right. 445 00:18:29,258 --> 00:18:31,598 So, and I'm gonna say again, this is not a charisma at its slightest. 446 00:18:31,748 --> 00:18:33,038 It comes back to adoption and final price. 447 00:18:33,218 --> 00:18:36,638 It's a really serious look, have a strategy, a great way to do it. 448 00:18:36,638 --> 00:18:38,318 And you start really long and hard about it. 449 00:18:38,558 --> 00:18:40,418 I do think the opportunity gets arbitraged away at some point. 450 00:18:40,568 --> 00:18:43,778 Uh, so getting there early is absolutely what it's all about, 451 00:18:44,408 --> 00:18:44,963 but you still gotta be right. 452 00:18:45,788 --> 00:18:49,238 And again, I, I know people yelling at the yelling at the pod machine now saying, ah, 453 00:18:49,238 --> 00:18:50,138 of course they're, of course he's right. 454 00:18:50,378 --> 00:18:51,908 Um, and he might be, I'm not saying he is not. 455 00:18:51,908 --> 00:18:52,688 I said, I own some Bitcoin. 456 00:18:52,688 --> 00:18:53,678 I'm not anti Bitcoin. 457 00:18:53,678 --> 00:18:54,638 I'm not even on the fence. 458 00:18:54,638 --> 00:18:55,988 I'm, I'm slightly positive. 459 00:18:55,988 --> 00:18:57,518 I'm, I'm, I'm in that, in that space. 460 00:18:57,818 --> 00:19:00,128 Um, but I've gotta be right and he's gotta be right. 461 00:19:00,128 --> 00:19:02,468 If he's right, it's of course, it's a super smart way to do it. 462 00:19:02,468 --> 00:19:03,158 Really smart. 463 00:19:03,218 --> 00:19:06,188 Um, uh, tether doing similar things, you know, the way they're 464 00:19:06,188 --> 00:19:09,038 kind of, you know, changing some of their profit into Bitcoin, if. 465 00:19:09,713 --> 00:19:14,693 Any money, any, any, uh, sat stacking, um, to, uh, to, to whatever, 466 00:19:14,753 --> 00:19:15,983 whatever method you use to do it. 467 00:19:15,983 --> 00:19:18,143 If you're right, the more of it you own, when the price goes up, 468 00:19:18,143 --> 00:19:18,893 the wealthier you're gonna be. 469 00:19:18,893 --> 00:19:19,913 So it makes a lot of sense. 470 00:19:20,153 --> 00:19:21,533 Uh, he's a really persuasive guy. 471 00:19:21,533 --> 00:19:23,693 I like what he has to say. 472 00:19:23,813 --> 00:19:24,023 Um. 473 00:19:25,088 --> 00:19:27,038 'cause I'm a skeptic in everything. 474 00:19:27,248 --> 00:19:28,568 Um, and again, not cynical. 475 00:19:28,778 --> 00:19:30,848 So it's, I'm, I'm an optimist by nature on you, by the way. 476 00:19:30,848 --> 00:19:32,288 I, I'm, I'm a massive optimist. 477 00:19:32,288 --> 00:19:33,158 I'm a massive Pollyanna. 478 00:19:33,398 --> 00:19:36,218 Um, you mentioned, we were talking about Andrew Page, generally our podcast. 479 00:19:36,218 --> 00:19:37,448 I'm the optimist, he's the pessimist, right? 480 00:19:37,448 --> 00:19:38,888 So, so I'm a massive optimist. 481 00:19:39,188 --> 00:19:40,478 Um, but I'm also a skeptic. 482 00:19:40,478 --> 00:19:42,518 So it's kind of like I'm always looking for. 483 00:19:42,778 --> 00:19:43,468 What's the angle? 484 00:19:43,468 --> 00:19:44,188 What am I being sold? 485 00:19:44,188 --> 00:19:45,118 What am I being told? 486 00:19:45,448 --> 00:19:48,088 And the problem with, the hardest part with Bitcoin, I've said, I've 487 00:19:48,088 --> 00:19:52,198 said to Andrew a lot, the hardest part with Bitcoin is you don't get the 488 00:19:52,228 --> 00:19:56,998 appreciate, you don't get the awareness and adoption without the absolute idea. 489 00:19:56,998 --> 00:20:01,858 Ideologues, diamond hand, laser eyes, just the full on, I'll say nut backs for fun. 490 00:20:01,858 --> 00:20:04,078 I don't mean you mean, you know, you know the ones we're talking about, right? 491 00:20:04,108 --> 00:20:06,778 The ones that can't possibly any other, any other outcome. 492 00:20:06,778 --> 00:20:06,898 Right? 493 00:20:06,898 --> 00:20:07,318 Those guys. 494 00:20:07,823 --> 00:20:08,993 And so you don't get it without them. 495 00:20:09,533 --> 00:20:13,853 The problem is that they become almost objectionable as part of that, you 496 00:20:13,853 --> 00:20:15,773 know, I've gotta in, I've gotta be, I've gotta become part of the cult. 497 00:20:15,773 --> 00:20:17,153 If I buy some big Bitcoin, I said, no, I'm just gonna buy it. 498 00:20:17,153 --> 00:20:20,903 'cause you know, one, I point about sailor, my point about everyone else is 499 00:20:21,413 --> 00:20:25,523 when you are a, when you're a, um, uh, when you're a disciple, when you're a, 500 00:20:25,583 --> 00:20:28,013 when you're an acolyte, when you're, when you're someone who's out there preaching 501 00:20:28,013 --> 00:20:32,303 the good word, the, the confidence and the conviction is really valuable. 502 00:20:33,908 --> 00:20:36,038 It's been like, it's been like, you know, this, this, this 503 00:20:36,038 --> 00:20:37,448 will annoy some people as well. 504 00:20:37,448 --> 00:20:38,798 Like the climate change thing, right? 505 00:20:39,038 --> 00:20:40,988 You got people like renews, the only answer and some 506 00:20:41,318 --> 00:20:42,248 nuclear is the only answer. 507 00:20:42,308 --> 00:20:45,098 And I'm like, you guys are, you guys are so polarized. 508 00:20:45,578 --> 00:20:47,378 I can't have a reasonable conversation in the middle with any of you. 509 00:20:47,378 --> 00:20:49,508 'cause you've all got your agendas, you're trying to push your thing. 510 00:20:49,508 --> 00:20:51,218 And so I don't even know if I should listen in any of you. 511 00:20:51,758 --> 00:20:53,468 And so it's kind of the same bit here with. 512 00:20:54,143 --> 00:20:56,183 And it's really hard to be agnostic about Bitcoin, right? 513 00:20:56,213 --> 00:20:58,433 'cause as I say, you either love it, 'cause you think you get it or you 514 00:20:58,433 --> 00:20:59,243 hate it 'cause you don't think it. 515 00:20:59,693 --> 00:21:02,963 So it's hard to be genuinely agnostic or at least open to, 516 00:21:02,963 --> 00:21:06,923 and, and, um, aware of, be able to discuss the pros and cons, right? 517 00:21:07,103 --> 00:21:08,633 Ask, ask an anti Bitcoin for the pros. 518 00:21:08,633 --> 00:21:09,263 They'll find zero. 519 00:21:09,473 --> 00:21:11,333 Ask a pro Bitcoin for the cons they'll find zero. 520 00:21:11,603 --> 00:21:13,253 And neither can be true by definition, right? 521 00:21:13,253 --> 00:21:15,173 Just, just, you know, nothing's perfect. 522 00:21:15,323 --> 00:21:16,043 There's no perfection. 523 00:21:16,133 --> 00:21:18,113 There's better, there's great, they're awesome. 524 00:21:18,113 --> 00:21:18,683 It's wonderful. 525 00:21:19,043 --> 00:21:19,673 There is terrible. 526 00:21:19,673 --> 00:21:22,703 There's atrocious there, you know, but there's, there's always gonna be both. 527 00:21:22,703 --> 00:21:27,443 So I love what he's doing, um, because I'm an investor. 528 00:21:27,833 --> 00:21:30,353 Uh, but the cynicism and the flip side of that is, is the, 529 00:21:30,353 --> 00:21:31,973 um, co uh, confirmation bias. 530 00:21:31,973 --> 00:21:35,903 So, mm, I'm trying to keep myself out of, you know, the, a person who agrees 531 00:21:35,903 --> 00:21:38,123 with me about a thing said a good thing about the thing we agree about. 532 00:21:38,423 --> 00:21:39,113 So therefore it's good. 533 00:21:39,383 --> 00:21:41,393 I'm like, yeah, kind of, of course, right? 534 00:21:41,483 --> 00:21:44,123 I, I could quote myself, myself either and say, geez, Scott Phillips likes 535 00:21:44,243 --> 00:21:45,263 Bitcoin, I should buy something. 536 00:21:45,503 --> 00:21:46,973 Um, so we've gotta be a little bit careful with. 537 00:21:47,333 --> 00:21:49,733 With the high priest of anything. 538 00:21:49,733 --> 00:21:53,903 And again, shares and trading and all, like anything, just be mindful of are 539 00:21:53,903 --> 00:21:59,273 they genuinely giving you the unvarnished, honest pros and cons truth, or are they 540 00:21:59,273 --> 00:22:00,233 out there just preaching the good word? 541 00:22:00,233 --> 00:22:01,343 And if they are, that's cool. 542 00:22:01,973 --> 00:22:04,583 If you like your religion, that's not, I go knock yourself out. 543 00:22:05,153 --> 00:22:06,173 I'm just not sure that. 544 00:22:06,938 --> 00:22:10,238 That you're gonna get a balance you, and that's okay just for 545 00:22:10,238 --> 00:22:11,438 yourself as an individual. 546 00:22:11,438 --> 00:22:14,228 My job is to say, alright, I know what that person's view is. 547 00:22:14,378 --> 00:22:16,658 I'm got a guy on, um, Twitter who gives me grief out by Bitcoin. 548 00:22:16,658 --> 00:22:18,938 Tony, a little bit every, like, every couple of weeks. 549 00:22:18,938 --> 00:22:19,178 Right. 550 00:22:19,658 --> 00:22:21,848 And I'm not listening to him and I'm not listening, but I'm also not 551 00:22:21,848 --> 00:22:24,548 listening to the pro because I ask you finally, you finally, you know, 552 00:22:24,548 --> 00:22:25,628 the scars are fallen for your eyes. 553 00:22:25,628 --> 00:22:26,348 You finally get it. 554 00:22:26,348 --> 00:22:27,098 Welcome to the club. 555 00:22:27,308 --> 00:22:29,498 I'm not sure any of you, I don't, I wanna know who this 556 00:22:29,673 --> 00:22:29,833 Anja: is. 557 00:22:31,263 --> 00:22:32,108 Scott: It's not helpful to me. 558 00:22:32,108 --> 00:22:32,648 It's just not helpful. 559 00:22:32,648 --> 00:22:35,288 Yeah, because the, the bit in between is the, hey. 560 00:22:35,813 --> 00:22:36,863 There's no certainty in life. 561 00:22:37,553 --> 00:22:39,413 Understand Charlie Munger a great investor. 562 00:22:39,593 --> 00:22:41,903 Um, always sort, you gotta know the bear case better than the 563 00:22:41,903 --> 00:22:43,703 bears, even if you're, even if you're gonna buy something. 564 00:22:44,123 --> 00:22:46,523 So I, if I'm gonna buy woolly shares, 'cause I think they're gonna go up, 565 00:22:47,273 --> 00:22:48,293 I better understand the bear case. 566 00:22:48,293 --> 00:22:51,083 'cause that means I know that I'm understanding the risks properly 567 00:22:51,563 --> 00:22:53,573 and I'm allowing for those risks and I make my investment. 568 00:22:53,573 --> 00:22:56,453 I just think, I think both those things are, are worthwhile and useful, important. 569 00:22:57,218 --> 00:22:58,358 Anja: Yeah, absolutely. 570 00:22:58,358 --> 00:23:00,608 And you sound like an extreme centrist. 571 00:23:03,428 --> 00:23:03,548 How so? 572 00:23:03,728 --> 00:23:04,088 Oh, no. 573 00:23:04,088 --> 00:23:07,898 Like, 'cause you know, you, you said like you, you kind of see both sides of the 574 00:23:07,898 --> 00:23:09,578 extreme and you are right in the middle. 575 00:23:09,578 --> 00:23:10,208 So it's just a 576 00:23:10,208 --> 00:23:10,658 Scott: funny, 577 00:23:10,688 --> 00:23:14,498 Anja: funny way of like extreme centrist because there's no such thing as extremes. 578 00:23:15,188 --> 00:23:15,518 Scott: Right. 579 00:23:16,028 --> 00:23:19,148 Well, I mean like that's, I mean that's again, let's get a bit off the topic. 580 00:23:19,238 --> 00:23:20,168 That's like politics in general. 581 00:23:20,168 --> 00:23:21,463 It's very hard to radicalize someone to the center. 582 00:23:21,953 --> 00:23:23,448 You can radical radicalize 'em with the extremes. 583 00:23:23,448 --> 00:23:24,678 That's how we have populous politics. 584 00:23:24,678 --> 00:23:24,948 Right? 585 00:23:25,128 --> 00:23:26,478 How do you radicalize someone at the center? 586 00:23:26,598 --> 00:23:26,868 Yeah. 587 00:23:26,868 --> 00:23:28,458 Let's get annoyed about not much. 588 00:23:28,458 --> 00:23:30,108 'cause really it's about balance and thought. 589 00:23:30,288 --> 00:23:31,848 But I want an emotional reaction to this. 590 00:23:31,998 --> 00:23:32,778 I hate those people. 591 00:23:32,778 --> 00:23:33,528 I love those people. 592 00:23:34,218 --> 00:23:35,448 Uh, I kinda like both of 'em a bit. 593 00:23:35,628 --> 00:23:37,308 And maybe there's some stuff in the middle we can talk about. 594 00:23:37,518 --> 00:23:39,378 I mean, man, try to that in social media, it doesn't exist. 595 00:23:40,188 --> 00:23:42,048 It's a, it's a tough, it's a tough battle, but there we are. 596 00:23:42,948 --> 00:23:43,308 Anja: Yeah. 597 00:23:43,308 --> 00:23:44,448 It really, really are. 598 00:23:44,688 --> 00:23:47,838 But I also wanted to touch a little bit on, um. 599 00:23:49,433 --> 00:23:50,933 Uh, Ray Dalio. 600 00:23:50,933 --> 00:23:51,683 So like mm-hmm. 601 00:23:52,463 --> 00:23:54,113 I, I'm, I'm going with him. 602 00:23:54,113 --> 00:23:57,233 There's obviously so many different people that are talking about this, 603 00:23:57,233 --> 00:24:01,223 but he's probably the most well known and the most mainstream person talking 604 00:24:01,223 --> 00:24:03,113 about it, not some of the domer. 605 00:24:03,593 --> 00:24:04,073 Um. 606 00:24:04,433 --> 00:24:06,023 Groups in, in gold and mm-hmm. 607 00:24:06,263 --> 00:24:06,863 Sound money. 608 00:24:06,893 --> 00:24:09,593 Um, and that is the changing global monetary order. 609 00:24:09,593 --> 00:24:14,633 So for me it is about building, understanding money and building 610 00:24:14,633 --> 00:24:16,763 resilience, whatever that may look like. 611 00:24:16,763 --> 00:24:20,633 And I also don't like pushing my worldview onto other people. 612 00:24:20,633 --> 00:24:24,733 I like to invite people who have different perspectives on this show 613 00:24:25,033 --> 00:24:28,333 because, uh, I do want that kind of diversity of thought and diversity 614 00:24:28,333 --> 00:24:30,043 of dialogue to, to happen here. 615 00:24:30,523 --> 00:24:35,323 But, you know, when I look at things like the digitalization, the bricks, 616 00:24:35,323 --> 00:24:41,593 nations rise to power, um, you know, alternative currencies, whether they are 617 00:24:41,593 --> 00:24:46,063 digital currencies by governments like the Chinese Yuan, or, you know, other 618 00:24:46,063 --> 00:24:48,463 cbdc that are getting built globally. 619 00:24:49,363 --> 00:24:51,343 Obviously stable coins, Bitcoin. 620 00:24:52,943 --> 00:24:53,483 What else? 621 00:24:53,483 --> 00:24:58,553 There's, there's also, you know, the, the US dollar losing the 622 00:24:58,583 --> 00:25:00,533 reserves kind of status slowly. 623 00:25:00,533 --> 00:25:05,363 I think the peak was in 2021, it was like around 72%. 624 00:25:05,693 --> 00:25:07,823 Now it's at around percent. 625 00:25:08,003 --> 00:25:12,293 So there's like a lot of things going on, and I really don't know where things are 626 00:25:12,293 --> 00:25:14,153 gonna land, and I don't think anyone does. 627 00:25:14,158 --> 00:25:14,388 Mm-hmm. 628 00:25:15,683 --> 00:25:22,313 But to me this is kind of like the, the drive to help people at least get curious 629 00:25:22,313 --> 00:25:29,153 about Bitcoin as an alternative and do your own research, make up your own mind. 630 00:25:29,873 --> 00:25:31,583 Um, and I dunno what the question is. 631 00:25:31,583 --> 00:25:32,843 That was a really long rant. 632 00:25:33,293 --> 00:25:33,803 Scott: No, it's good. 633 00:25:33,803 --> 00:25:34,223 No, it's good. 634 00:25:34,228 --> 00:25:34,883 It's really good point. 635 00:25:35,273 --> 00:25:36,533 Um, I'll drop in some thoughts in if you want. 636 00:25:36,533 --> 00:25:36,793 Do you want me to 637 00:25:36,793 --> 00:25:37,048 Anja: contact? 638 00:25:37,048 --> 00:25:37,488 Scott: Yeah, for sure. 639 00:25:37,848 --> 00:25:42,468 Speaker 5: Need a way to sign, verify and secure your Bitcoin Australia's 640 00:25:42,468 --> 00:25:44,058 one-stop shop for Bitcoiners. 641 00:25:44,208 --> 00:25:48,648 Has you covered from signing devices, nodes, and backup solutions? 642 00:25:48,948 --> 00:25:53,973 To bid access day decor and apparel, visit shop bitcoin.com au. 643 00:25:57,528 --> 00:25:57,848 Scott: Alright. 644 00:26:00,128 --> 00:26:04,628 One of the things I think is, um, so I think Bitcoin's gonna have two stages. 645 00:26:05,318 --> 00:26:07,958 Um, I know this is, this is not a, a blindly flashy insight, by the way. 646 00:26:08,258 --> 00:26:10,568 There's gonna be a growth stage in a maturity stage, and I know 647 00:26:10,568 --> 00:26:12,488 you're talking about the broader macro rather than just Bitcoin. 648 00:26:12,488 --> 00:26:15,788 But in the context of this, why it's important, I think, is 649 00:26:15,788 --> 00:26:18,608 because people, a lot of people wanna compare Bitcoin to cash. 650 00:26:18,848 --> 00:26:21,728 I say Bitcoin is better than cash now at maturity. 651 00:26:21,728 --> 00:26:22,928 That's absolutely true. 652 00:26:23,228 --> 00:26:23,528 Okay. 653 00:26:24,068 --> 00:26:26,258 In other words, once you have a stable price. 654 00:26:26,888 --> 00:26:28,208 And again, pricing in dollars. 655 00:26:28,208 --> 00:26:29,858 I understand one Bitcoin worth, one Bitcoin, right? 656 00:26:29,858 --> 00:26:30,548 But work with me here. 657 00:26:30,788 --> 00:26:32,708 Once you have a stable purchasing power, let's call it that. 658 00:26:33,098 --> 00:26:38,168 Um, then as money continues to grow, Bitcoin becomes more valuable. 659 00:26:38,258 --> 00:26:40,988 Measured in that money, measured purchasing power 660 00:26:40,988 --> 00:26:41,738 for all the reasons, right? 661 00:26:41,738 --> 00:26:45,998 Until we get a that and if, if so, even if that happens, when that happens, 662 00:26:46,478 --> 00:26:47,498 'cause we know what price, right? 663 00:26:47,498 --> 00:26:49,988 Well let Bitcoin stabilize, let's say stabilizes it 10 grand or a hundred 664 00:26:49,988 --> 00:26:53,138 grand or a million bucks, whatever number that ends up being from that point. 665 00:26:53,798 --> 00:26:55,988 Bitcoin is obje as unless adoption changes. 666 00:26:55,988 --> 00:26:58,568 So I'm talking about maturity being effectively solid state, 667 00:26:58,568 --> 00:27:00,548 stable level, um, usage. 668 00:27:00,548 --> 00:27:01,148 Adoption. 669 00:27:01,508 --> 00:27:03,398 We get to a point and go, right, we are now there forever, 670 00:27:03,938 --> 00:27:04,988 let's just call it that, right? 671 00:27:05,438 --> 00:27:09,758 Um, at whatever level, how whatever amount of money it replaces, um, other 672 00:27:09,758 --> 00:27:11,588 money, it replaces bitcoin's mature. 673 00:27:12,068 --> 00:27:15,548 And at that point, like gold, it must be better than currency if 674 00:27:15,548 --> 00:27:18,163 the rate of increase is slower than than currency register iss. 675 00:27:18,983 --> 00:27:20,663 That's, and that's where, that's what I'm saying, like from a 676 00:27:20,663 --> 00:27:24,653 sound money from Bitcoin, I get it like absolutely true versus cash. 677 00:27:24,743 --> 00:27:25,043 Right. 678 00:27:25,673 --> 00:27:27,053 Between now and then. 679 00:27:27,593 --> 00:27:31,043 The question isn't, is Bitcoin better than fi currency? 680 00:27:31,553 --> 00:27:34,673 'cause it must be by definition for all the sound money reasons. 681 00:27:35,393 --> 00:27:38,663 The question is what will be the, what is the, I'll say fair value. 682 00:27:38,663 --> 00:27:40,043 It's, again, it's a very loaded term. 683 00:27:40,043 --> 00:27:41,933 It's really hard to have this discussion in any short period of time. 684 00:27:42,713 --> 00:27:43,973 The, the language and the, and the terms. 685 00:27:44,753 --> 00:27:45,983 Whatever it's whatever it ends up being worth. 686 00:27:45,983 --> 00:27:48,833 Eventually, if we're below that, there's growth opportunity. 687 00:27:49,193 --> 00:27:53,693 If we're above that, there's downside risk, and when we get there, we are there. 688 00:27:54,593 --> 00:27:57,408 I say that because between now and then. 689 00:27:58,478 --> 00:28:02,378 The value of investing in Bitcoin is the, is the growth return you get, 690 00:28:02,378 --> 00:28:03,548 I'll call it the speculative return. 691 00:28:03,548 --> 00:28:05,048 I don't mean that in any way pejoratively. 692 00:28:05,288 --> 00:28:07,508 What I mean is you buy it at a price 'cause you think it's 693 00:28:07,508 --> 00:28:08,618 gonna eventually stabilize. 694 00:28:08,648 --> 00:28:09,908 'cause Bitcoin must stabilize. 695 00:28:10,148 --> 00:28:13,268 Well, it grows again in a US dollar sense by the rate of 696 00:28:13,268 --> 00:28:14,198 inflation, but you know what I mean. 697 00:28:14,558 --> 00:28:16,088 So it gets to maturity between now and then. 698 00:28:16,548 --> 00:28:20,268 That, that is a speculative decision based on what you think will happen in terms 699 00:28:20,268 --> 00:28:22,278 of adoption, that that's all it can be. 700 00:28:22,278 --> 00:28:22,518 Right. 701 00:28:22,938 --> 00:28:24,798 And I don't, again, I don't mean it pejoratively in the slightest. 702 00:28:24,833 --> 00:28:25,938 Anja: No, no, I, I agree. 703 00:28:25,938 --> 00:28:26,808 It is speculative. 704 00:28:26,808 --> 00:28:28,398 I also think fiat is speculative. 705 00:28:28,998 --> 00:28:29,358 Scott: Totally. 706 00:28:29,418 --> 00:28:29,838 No, totally. 707 00:28:29,838 --> 00:28:30,078 Right. 708 00:28:30,078 --> 00:28:31,278 So, so this, this is my point. 709 00:28:31,278 --> 00:28:32,118 So this is exactly my point. 710 00:28:32,418 --> 00:28:33,678 Between now and then. 711 00:28:34,098 --> 00:28:37,668 The question is not, or should not be only Bitcoin versus cash. 712 00:28:37,968 --> 00:28:38,208 Anja: Yep. 713 00:28:38,658 --> 00:28:43,068 Scott: Because if we are speculating on the, and again, intelligent speculation, 714 00:28:43,278 --> 00:28:44,868 speculating on the decline of fiat. 715 00:28:45,758 --> 00:28:54,278 We're talking about hard, um, uh, limited, um, scarce assets 716 00:28:54,668 --> 00:28:57,518 versus a printed fi currency. 717 00:28:58,118 --> 00:29:02,888 And in that case, the question should never, ever just be Bitcoin or cash. 718 00:29:02,888 --> 00:29:07,358 'cause I think if, if you're right about the FI moves and you probably are, Bitcoin 719 00:29:07,358 --> 00:29:12,283 should appreciate as long as, as long as the final price is above where we are now. 720 00:29:13,568 --> 00:29:15,008 Because we dunno what the final option is gonna look like. 721 00:29:15,008 --> 00:29:16,568 So let's assume that it goes higher than that. 722 00:29:16,568 --> 00:29:17,228 Let's just assume that's right. 723 00:29:17,948 --> 00:29:21,818 But the question now is, okay, let's say fis declining, dead in 724 00:29:21,818 --> 00:29:23,318 for some sort of reevaluation. 725 00:29:23,318 --> 00:29:24,368 Something, something, something, something. 726 00:29:25,118 --> 00:29:29,228 The question isn't just cash or Bitcoin, it's cash or other scarce, 727 00:29:30,038 --> 00:29:33,333 valuable, rare, um, hard assets. 728 00:29:34,238 --> 00:29:37,148 And so for me, I can play inver commas. 729 00:29:37,388 --> 00:29:42,903 The decline of fiat owning shares or farmland or commercial property or 730 00:29:42,903 --> 00:29:46,118 Bitcoin or gold or whatever else, is not gonna, there's not gonna be more of or 731 00:29:46,118 --> 00:29:47,768 meaning more of over that period of time. 732 00:29:47,948 --> 00:29:50,858 And I guess I'm just making that point not to be, again, not to poo P Bitcoin 733 00:29:50,858 --> 00:29:53,858 the slightest, but I think what people say, yeah, but Bitcoin's better than cash. 734 00:29:53,858 --> 00:29:54,818 I'm like, yeah, I agree. 735 00:29:55,508 --> 00:29:58,028 But that's not the only share's better than cash too. 736 00:29:58,508 --> 00:30:00,638 So what we we're talking about opportunity cost here, right? 737 00:30:00,638 --> 00:30:02,018 The question is, if you're not gonna hold cash. 738 00:30:02,963 --> 00:30:04,943 'cause because of all the reasons we don't wanna hold cash. 739 00:30:05,363 --> 00:30:06,713 What should you hold instead? 740 00:30:06,953 --> 00:30:09,713 And Bitcoin's one of those options, but it is not, we should never distill 741 00:30:09,713 --> 00:30:13,643 down to, well, if FI's going down, then Bitcoin is obviously the right choice. 742 00:30:13,913 --> 00:30:16,103 It's a better choice than cash if you're right about that. 743 00:30:16,553 --> 00:30:19,253 But will Bitcoin outperform shares or farmland or commercial 744 00:30:19,253 --> 00:30:19,973 buildings or something else? 745 00:30:19,973 --> 00:30:23,483 And so that just to your point about, you know, the decline of currencies 746 00:30:23,483 --> 00:30:25,908 of Fiats and US dollars, that's to me. 747 00:30:26,828 --> 00:30:28,508 There's two questions at maturity. 748 00:30:28,598 --> 00:30:29,498 It's Bitcoin versus cash. 749 00:30:29,498 --> 00:30:30,158 Absolutely. 750 00:30:30,458 --> 00:30:33,278 By the way, that at maturity, you wanna own productive assets rather than Bitcoin. 751 00:30:33,338 --> 00:30:36,938 Frankly, now that's gonna, you know, annoy some people, but I 752 00:30:36,938 --> 00:30:37,838 don't, I don't own dollars today. 753 00:30:38,228 --> 00:30:40,868 And if they stop, let's say the Australian government tonight went, you know what? 754 00:30:41,018 --> 00:30:41,978 Never gonna print another dollar. 755 00:30:42,488 --> 00:30:43,778 Not gonna have fractional reserve banking. 756 00:30:43,898 --> 00:30:45,413 We've now got a sound currency in Australia. 757 00:30:46,988 --> 00:30:47,768 I'm still going shares. 758 00:30:48,158 --> 00:30:50,558 'cause they're gonna grow faster than the purchasing power of 759 00:30:50,588 --> 00:30:52,148 owning that fixed currency. 760 00:30:52,268 --> 00:30:54,158 And so that's where it's really important. 761 00:30:54,158 --> 00:30:57,878 So there's the two phases, and you are right to say, if you're right about 762 00:30:57,878 --> 00:31:01,808 the de dollarization, the collapse of fair, massive money, printing, whatever, 763 00:31:01,808 --> 00:31:05,258 whatever that ends up being, like Dalia was talking about, Bitcoin should do 764 00:31:05,258 --> 00:31:07,778 better from a fair value to a fair value. 765 00:31:08,318 --> 00:31:09,458 The question is, what is that fair value? 766 00:31:09,458 --> 00:31:10,058 We don't know. 767 00:31:10,208 --> 00:31:11,798 The same is true of shares, the same is true of property 768 00:31:11,798 --> 00:31:12,623 and, and so on and so forth. 769 00:31:12,973 --> 00:31:13,263 Anja: Yeah. 770 00:31:14,228 --> 00:31:20,018 That's super interesting and yeah, with fiat, like again, I, I completely agree. 771 00:31:20,018 --> 00:31:25,338 There's people on Twitter that, um, aren't entirely honest and, and, and 772 00:31:25,338 --> 00:31:27,248 painted in the worst possible light. 773 00:31:27,253 --> 00:31:27,433 Yeah. 774 00:31:27,438 --> 00:31:27,518 Yeah. 775 00:31:27,638 --> 00:31:30,068 And look, I, I've been there, I've done that. 776 00:31:30,968 --> 00:31:33,158 But like, there's, there's different, um. 777 00:31:33,728 --> 00:31:37,358 Throughout history, we've had fiat experiments that have failed spectacularly 778 00:31:37,358 --> 00:31:41,018 in a very short amount of time, and then we've had fiat experiments that 779 00:31:41,018 --> 00:31:42,578 have kicked the can down the road. 780 00:31:42,968 --> 00:31:47,318 What's speculative for me about Fiat is that no one can really answer how 781 00:31:47,318 --> 00:31:49,088 far you can kick it down the road. 782 00:31:49,418 --> 00:31:53,138 And the reason why I think they're implementing C BDCs is so they can have. 783 00:31:53,218 --> 00:31:57,388 Visibility and be able to kind of manage the life cycle of 784 00:31:57,388 --> 00:31:58,648 fiat, whatever that may be. 785 00:31:58,653 --> 00:31:59,143 Scott: Yeah, makes sense. 786 00:31:59,248 --> 00:31:59,428 Yeah. 787 00:31:59,548 --> 00:32:03,478 Anja: Putting aside all the, you know, scary kind of totalitarian 788 00:32:03,778 --> 00:32:05,248 risks that come with that. 789 00:32:05,248 --> 00:32:05,338 Mm-hmm. 790 00:32:05,878 --> 00:32:08,698 Um, it, it's, yeah, it, it's interesting. 791 00:32:08,698 --> 00:32:09,898 I don't know the answers. 792 00:32:09,898 --> 00:32:15,088 I find this stuff so, so fascinating and yeah, I think it's, it's good 793 00:32:15,088 --> 00:32:18,358 to understand it from as many different perspectives as possible. 794 00:32:18,448 --> 00:32:18,598 Mm-hmm. 795 00:32:18,658 --> 00:32:25,508 But what I. I'm curious about what you said about the lifecycle of Bitcoin, and 796 00:32:25,658 --> 00:32:31,628 to me it sounds like you are almost kind of treating it like a product or a tech 797 00:32:31,628 --> 00:32:35,828 stock or something like that in terms of that it has that, you know, growth phase 798 00:32:35,828 --> 00:32:37,988 and then maturity and then a decline. 799 00:32:38,878 --> 00:32:39,938 I'm not entirely, no, 800 00:32:39,938 --> 00:32:40,138 Scott: no. 801 00:32:40,138 --> 00:32:42,293 Just so I'm clear, just so I'm note I'm not predicting decline. 802 00:32:42,293 --> 00:32:43,163 So growth in the maturity. 803 00:32:43,168 --> 00:32:43,378 Okay. 804 00:32:43,378 --> 00:32:43,898 Anja: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 805 00:32:43,903 --> 00:32:44,003 Okay. 806 00:32:44,003 --> 00:32:44,123 Right. 807 00:32:44,123 --> 00:32:44,243 Go 808 00:32:44,723 --> 00:32:45,023 Scott: keep going. 809 00:32:45,328 --> 00:32:45,618 Anja: Yeah. 810 00:32:45,623 --> 00:32:45,893 Yeah. 811 00:32:45,893 --> 00:32:49,463 Um, I guess where I was going with this is like one interesting rabbit 812 00:32:49,463 --> 00:32:51,383 hole I using that term as well. 813 00:32:52,313 --> 00:32:57,083 Rabbit hole, um, is the understanding protocols. 814 00:32:57,083 --> 00:33:00,053 So protocols are very different to products and they operate very 815 00:33:00,053 --> 00:33:01,943 different and have very different, um. 816 00:33:02,753 --> 00:33:03,263 Growth. 817 00:33:03,593 --> 00:33:05,843 I would really like to invite, actually, now that I'm thinking 818 00:33:05,843 --> 00:33:10,283 about it, uh, an expert on protocols to help me understand, I guess that 819 00:33:10,343 --> 00:33:12,293 adoption from a Bitcoin perspective. 820 00:33:12,503 --> 00:33:18,383 It's not like a, um, from what I've read, it's not like you can have. 821 00:33:19,478 --> 00:33:24,518 Competitors to protocols, there's one, and once it establishes critical mass, which 822 00:33:24,518 --> 00:33:26,918 it already has in Bitcoin, this is it. 823 00:33:27,428 --> 00:33:31,928 Um, we haven't had a historical example that I'm aware of, or 824 00:33:31,928 --> 00:33:35,198 technological protocols that have been replaced by something else. 825 00:33:35,408 --> 00:33:37,808 There's been attempts, but it has never happened. 826 00:33:38,108 --> 00:33:40,118 So yeah, I mean, I don't. 827 00:33:41,153 --> 00:33:42,923 I'm just talking out loud now. 828 00:33:43,973 --> 00:33:47,003 I'm not exactly sure where I was going with with all of that. 829 00:33:47,183 --> 00:33:48,053 Scott: No, that's an important point. 830 00:33:48,503 --> 00:33:48,623 Anja: Yeah. 831 00:33:48,623 --> 00:33:50,993 Scott: So the adoption, what about the The phases? 832 00:33:51,383 --> 00:33:56,663 So at some point we all have as much Bitcoin as we want in the context of 833 00:33:56,663 --> 00:34:01,523 the transference of our store of value, medium exchange, all the stuff from 834 00:34:01,673 --> 00:34:03,953 FI to Bitcoin, maybe my entire wealth. 835 00:34:04,583 --> 00:34:08,963 In my entire cash, um, experience. 836 00:34:09,053 --> 00:34:11,303 So transaction saving is all in Bitcoin at some point. 837 00:34:11,633 --> 00:34:15,143 Or maybe I only ever use it to store, or maybe I use it as an asset like 838 00:34:15,143 --> 00:34:17,483 gold where it's kind of off the side, whatever that ends up being. 839 00:34:17,483 --> 00:34:18,503 So gold is mature right? 840 00:34:18,503 --> 00:34:19,223 As, as an asset. 841 00:34:19,733 --> 00:34:20,093 Okay. 842 00:34:20,513 --> 00:34:23,243 And we've come to a point where there's a lot of it out there. 843 00:34:23,243 --> 00:34:24,353 It's found its own price. 844 00:34:24,413 --> 00:34:24,593 Yes. 845 00:34:24,593 --> 00:34:25,073 It still moves around. 846 00:34:25,073 --> 00:34:27,353 It's still volatile 'cause people buy and, and sell it and want more 847 00:34:27,353 --> 00:34:29,093 and want less than we've seen over last 18 months, what it's done. 848 00:34:29,363 --> 00:34:32,633 Um, but, but the, you know, the, the concept has matured. 849 00:34:33,308 --> 00:34:37,268 And so now when no one's really saying, when everybody all of a sudden wants 850 00:34:37,268 --> 00:34:42,218 gold, we are gonna have a, a price that's thousand dollars an ounce for gold, right? 851 00:34:42,848 --> 00:34:45,488 As in, as in that it may happen over time just with slow, you 852 00:34:45,488 --> 00:34:46,868 know, currency inflation, frankly. 853 00:34:47,738 --> 00:34:49,628 But, you know, it, it's reached some degree of maturity. 854 00:34:49,628 --> 00:34:51,398 I still ize, I said, but I still fluctuates. 855 00:34:51,398 --> 00:34:53,768 But, you know, with there, or thereabouts, within a range, even 856 00:34:53,768 --> 00:34:56,378 if a Hals will doubles, it's kind of there and it's gonna stay there. 857 00:34:57,178 --> 00:35:00,128 Bitcoins on that journey to whatever it ends up being that that's exactly why 858 00:35:00,128 --> 00:35:04,298 I suspect 95% of people own Bitcoin, which is I think at some point it's 859 00:35:04,298 --> 00:35:06,458 gonna be worth more money or it's gonna have more purchasing power. 860 00:35:06,458 --> 00:35:08,108 If you don't wanna express it in fi terms. 861 00:35:09,113 --> 00:35:09,863 Because everyone's gonna want it. 862 00:35:09,863 --> 00:35:10,613 Everyone's gonna use it. 863 00:35:10,613 --> 00:35:12,773 And so if I have some now, it's gonna be worth a lot more in the future. 864 00:35:12,983 --> 00:35:14,033 So that's the growth bit. 865 00:35:14,033 --> 00:35:17,093 And, and when I say growth, maybe we should talk about the adoption bit, right? 866 00:35:17,543 --> 00:35:19,223 So, so there's, there's an adoption curve. 867 00:35:19,523 --> 00:35:22,313 And that adoption curve will, will effectively eventually be dead flat. 868 00:35:22,493 --> 00:35:24,203 Not the price, but the curve itself. 869 00:35:24,203 --> 00:35:26,423 In other words, at some point we'll all have as much Bitcoin as 870 00:35:26,423 --> 00:35:30,293 we can afford and want and need and use like gold or like cash. 871 00:35:30,908 --> 00:35:33,908 And at that point, the increase is going to effectively just be, 872 00:35:34,268 --> 00:35:34,568 Anja: yeah, 873 00:35:35,318 --> 00:35:37,868 Scott: the, the, the relative increase anyway in purchasing 874 00:35:37,868 --> 00:35:40,358 power will be the equivalent of the inflation of the currency. 875 00:35:40,448 --> 00:35:43,208 'cause there was no, unless more people want more of it, I mean 876 00:35:44,408 --> 00:35:45,398 Anja: population increase. 877 00:35:48,758 --> 00:35:50,198 Scott: I mean, yeah, to some degree. 878 00:35:50,258 --> 00:35:50,678 Um, 879 00:35:51,428 --> 00:35:54,518 Anja: I agree, will flatten out at some stage, but yeah, I don't think 880 00:35:54,668 --> 00:35:56,108 Scott: it's ever go completely flat. 881 00:35:56,108 --> 00:35:57,843 But 2% a year, that's 2% a year. 882 00:35:57,848 --> 00:36:00,308 I mean that 2% a year, look, it's not bad. 883 00:36:00,428 --> 00:36:01,778 And I don't mean that it correctly at all. 884 00:36:01,898 --> 00:36:02,408 At all, at all. 885 00:36:02,408 --> 00:36:02,443 At all. 886 00:36:02,448 --> 00:36:02,468 Yeah. 887 00:36:02,603 --> 00:36:02,723 Anja: Yeah. 888 00:36:02,918 --> 00:36:02,978 No, 889 00:36:03,038 --> 00:36:04,628 Scott: what I mean is that, let's say, let's say it's population, 890 00:36:04,628 --> 00:36:06,338 let's say population increase at 3% a year's bigger number. 891 00:36:06,703 --> 00:36:08,528 Uh, and let's say inflation runs at 3% a year. 892 00:36:08,768 --> 00:36:09,068 Okay? 893 00:36:10,058 --> 00:36:13,478 Bitcoin's purchasing power increase at 6% a year at that 894 00:36:13,478 --> 00:36:14,588 stage, in that maturity stage. 895 00:36:15,263 --> 00:36:18,293 If I can get an asset, like a share or property, I'm not saying, I'm not saying 896 00:36:18,293 --> 00:36:21,383 there's a better, I'm just saying the opportunity cost question is simply, 897 00:36:21,923 --> 00:36:25,793 do I get, I get 6% in Bitcoin or I can get seven or 12 or 13% somewhere 898 00:36:25,793 --> 00:36:29,543 else, and that's when Bitcoin versus cash is very real as a conversation, 899 00:36:30,593 --> 00:36:34,193 but you're still at maturity looking at, which gives me the best return and 900 00:36:34,193 --> 00:36:35,873 it'd be really unlikely for a money. 901 00:36:37,148 --> 00:36:41,918 Capital M money to give you a higher return once we have ACH maturity 902 00:36:42,008 --> 00:36:46,388 compared to a brand new business that invents the iPhone or uh, a 903 00:36:46,388 --> 00:36:47,888 supermarket's able, you know what I mean? 904 00:36:47,888 --> 00:36:49,658 So that's where I'm, I just wanna make that difference between the 905 00:36:49,658 --> 00:36:53,228 growth or the adoption phase and the maturity phase during adoption, 906 00:36:53,228 --> 00:36:54,398 the zero point pay Bitcoin to cash. 907 00:36:54,398 --> 00:36:56,018 'cause you're not, you, you're comparing it. 908 00:36:56,018 --> 00:37:00,158 I. The, the concept might be that I think this is why it's gonna grow, but no one's 909 00:37:00,158 --> 00:37:03,398 saying, I'm buying Bitcoin to get 3% a year, which is the inflation rate, or 7% 910 00:37:03,398 --> 00:37:06,458 a year, which is the, but the, you know, no one, no one, no one's owning Bitcoin. 911 00:37:06,638 --> 00:37:08,828 'cause I want to grow slightly faster than money supply. 912 00:37:09,278 --> 00:37:11,168 They want this thing to 10 x on adoption, which is great. 913 00:37:11,168 --> 00:37:12,188 It's not a bad thing at all. 914 00:37:12,248 --> 00:37:12,698 So I own it. 915 00:37:12,698 --> 00:37:15,848 I don't know if I did Bitcoin was at full adoption, I wouldn't, I'd sell it and buy 916 00:37:15,848 --> 00:37:18,548 shares instead because I think the upside for shares is better than the upside 917 00:37:18,548 --> 00:37:20,408 for money when it, when it's mature. 918 00:37:20,918 --> 00:37:22,058 But to get there. 919 00:37:22,613 --> 00:37:23,513 That's what we're all hoping. 920 00:37:23,573 --> 00:37:24,113 I own Bitcoin. 921 00:37:24,143 --> 00:37:28,163 I'm hoping too, adoption rises and I make money on the adoption rise. 922 00:37:28,733 --> 00:37:30,593 But that's the process of adoption. 923 00:37:30,743 --> 00:37:34,493 The same as we first moved from shells to shekels. 924 00:37:34,883 --> 00:37:35,933 There was an adoption of shekels. 925 00:37:35,933 --> 00:37:38,093 And if you had a lot of shekels to start with, you did really, really well. 926 00:37:38,633 --> 00:37:38,723 Yeah. 927 00:37:38,723 --> 00:37:40,523 And if you've got the sheckles early, you did better. 928 00:37:40,523 --> 00:37:41,723 'cause there weren't that many of 'em going around. 929 00:37:41,723 --> 00:37:43,403 And so I had to have a shekel and that's how it worked. 930 00:37:43,793 --> 00:37:45,203 So that, that's, I hope that makes sense. 931 00:37:45,203 --> 00:37:46,553 That's kinda what I'm talking about with the, with the, 932 00:37:46,763 --> 00:37:48,053 the two, the two timeframes. 933 00:37:48,413 --> 00:37:51,113 Bitcoin versus cash is not a conversation today. 934 00:37:51,743 --> 00:37:53,723 In my opinion that justifies owning it. 935 00:37:54,503 --> 00:37:57,833 You can say eventually Bitcoin will replace cash and that adoption curve is, 936 00:37:57,833 --> 00:37:59,273 looks like this and that's why I'm buying. 937 00:37:59,813 --> 00:38:01,613 But you can't compare Bitcoin's return to Cash's return. 938 00:38:01,613 --> 00:38:05,033 Now make the case for Bitcoin specifically own on that basis, unless 939 00:38:05,033 --> 00:38:08,088 you also say and versus shares and versus property versus something else. 940 00:38:08,873 --> 00:38:09,203 Anja: Yeah. 941 00:38:09,683 --> 00:38:13,973 What would give me personally more conviction around the long-term 942 00:38:13,973 --> 00:38:19,133 adoption would be if I see Bitcoin being used as a medium of exchange 943 00:38:19,613 --> 00:38:20,843 a lot more than it is today. 944 00:38:20,843 --> 00:38:21,023 So. 945 00:38:21,893 --> 00:38:24,293 If I see that in my lifetime, I'll be very happy. 946 00:38:26,003 --> 00:38:27,353 Scott: Well man, that's it right now, by the way. 947 00:38:27,353 --> 00:38:29,558 You can use a medium exchange now, but when the 948 00:38:29,598 --> 00:38:31,913 Anja: adoption phase, how frequent I, and I do, I do. 949 00:38:31,918 --> 00:38:32,038 Yeah. 950 00:38:32,068 --> 00:38:36,143 Like I do use it as a medium exchange, but like it, it's not like I'm 951 00:38:36,143 --> 00:38:40,673 still using Australian dollars most of the time, like 95% of the time. 952 00:38:40,943 --> 00:38:41,053 There you go. 953 00:38:41,218 --> 00:38:41,998 So yeah. 954 00:38:42,788 --> 00:38:45,668 Oh, and obviously like in the global south, it is used a lot 955 00:38:45,668 --> 00:38:47,138 more as a medium of exchange Yeah. 956 00:38:47,138 --> 00:38:48,128 Than a store of value. 957 00:38:48,128 --> 00:38:49,958 I find that really, really fascinating. 958 00:38:50,198 --> 00:38:50,288 Scott: Mm-hmm. 959 00:38:51,128 --> 00:38:54,308 Anja: But you know, in the Western world, we are using it as a store of value. 960 00:38:55,328 --> 00:38:56,378 That's super. 961 00:38:56,438 --> 00:38:56,768 Yeah. 962 00:38:57,668 --> 00:39:01,178 But I wanted to know is do you have any other books that you're gonna 963 00:39:01,178 --> 00:39:02,678 read on Bitcoin or you kind of done 964 00:39:05,348 --> 00:39:09,818 Scott: so No, I'm not planning to, um, and largely because. 965 00:39:11,483 --> 00:39:13,163 I'm, I sound like a broke record on you and I'm sorry. 966 00:39:13,223 --> 00:39:13,583 Um, 967 00:39:13,793 --> 00:39:14,183 Anja: it's okay. 968 00:39:15,083 --> 00:39:18,863 Scott: Largely because I don't need to be convinced about bitcoin's 969 00:39:19,133 --> 00:39:21,383 inherent characteristics or value. 970 00:39:21,983 --> 00:39:22,193 Anja: Yeah. 971 00:39:22,313 --> 00:39:25,373 Scott: It doesn't ma it because I'm not here for the mission. 972 00:39:25,973 --> 00:39:27,833 I, by the way, I'd, I'd love to sound money as a concept, right? 973 00:39:27,833 --> 00:39:31,643 So it, um, the mission of sound money is useful. 974 00:39:32,243 --> 00:39:34,583 The mission of Bitcoin is not very useful to me at all, right? 975 00:39:34,583 --> 00:39:37,823 I just, how I, if we, if we went to a sound Australian dollar currency 976 00:39:37,823 --> 00:39:39,563 standard, I'm happy with that. 977 00:39:39,563 --> 00:39:40,883 I don't need then push the Bitcoin train. 978 00:39:40,883 --> 00:39:42,953 'cause I don't need it to be Bitcoin for the sake of being 979 00:39:42,953 --> 00:39:44,693 Bitcoin, other than the fact I'd like to make some money out of it. 980 00:39:44,693 --> 00:39:46,163 So sound money is a mission. 981 00:39:46,703 --> 00:39:47,243 Of sorts. 982 00:39:47,243 --> 00:39:49,613 I'm not even seriously massively kind of all in on it, just 983 00:39:49,613 --> 00:39:50,488 like I get it and it'd be cool. 984 00:39:50,488 --> 00:39:51,413 And if we did that, that'd be great. 985 00:39:51,923 --> 00:39:54,533 Um, by the way, getting this, our money would be an absolute 986 00:39:54,593 --> 00:39:57,173 economic just mess for years. 987 00:39:57,353 --> 00:39:58,553 So we kinda gotta be careful what we wish for. 988 00:39:58,553 --> 00:39:58,703 Right. 989 00:39:58,703 --> 00:39:59,783 To get to the other side of that. 990 00:39:59,933 --> 00:39:59,993 Yeah. 991 00:39:59,993 --> 00:40:01,013 That's a whole different conversation. 992 00:40:01,013 --> 00:40:02,993 But that is, that is messy as hell and painful as hell. 993 00:40:03,233 --> 00:40:03,833 So we've gotta get to that. 994 00:40:03,833 --> 00:40:05,243 If, if we were to get to that, we'd have to get to that. 995 00:40:06,473 --> 00:40:07,433 So I, I'm here for the Bitcoin mission. 996 00:40:08,093 --> 00:40:11,213 I'm here to make some money if adoption rises. 997 00:40:11,903 --> 00:40:13,493 So you ask about the, the book question. 998 00:40:13,733 --> 00:40:16,043 The reason why is I don't need to be convinced about 999 00:40:16,043 --> 00:40:17,303 its technological superiority. 1000 00:40:17,963 --> 00:40:19,793 I don't need convinced about the value of sound money. 1001 00:40:19,853 --> 00:40:21,563 I don't mean that in arrogant sense, and, and I'm not saying 1002 00:40:21,563 --> 00:40:22,313 I know everything about it. 1003 00:40:22,613 --> 00:40:24,953 Mm. Honestly, is that none, none of that would change my view. 1004 00:40:25,398 --> 00:40:26,438 Yeah, Bitcoin is amazing. 1005 00:40:26,438 --> 00:40:28,928 As a technology, if I was convinced it was even more amazing, it would've 1006 00:40:28,928 --> 00:40:29,978 absolutely no difference on my view. 1007 00:40:30,338 --> 00:40:33,248 If I was convinced it was the best invention ever, would've no, no difference 1008 00:40:33,248 --> 00:40:36,068 on my view, because doesn't matter what I think, the price only goes up. 1009 00:40:36,068 --> 00:40:39,068 If you think it and everyone else thinks it, and people listening to this 1010 00:40:39,068 --> 00:40:41,918 think it, and their cousins think it, and their cousins friends think it, 1011 00:40:42,248 --> 00:40:43,658 that's when I start to make some money. 1012 00:40:43,658 --> 00:40:43,928 Right? 1013 00:40:44,438 --> 00:40:46,988 I'm not, I'm not my understanding of Bitcoin. 1014 00:40:47,018 --> 00:40:47,403 I, I don't. 1015 00:40:48,668 --> 00:40:50,258 I'm not investing a small amount only. 1016 00:40:50,318 --> 00:40:50,408 Mm-hmm. 1017 00:40:50,408 --> 00:40:52,058 And I'm not, I have got only tiny amount. 1018 00:40:52,418 --> 00:40:54,578 The reason it's tiny is not because I don't think Bitcoin is 1019 00:40:54,578 --> 00:40:59,978 legitimate or gonna succeed, or, um, is not a solution to sell money. 1020 00:41:00,128 --> 00:41:00,968 It's none of those things. 1021 00:41:00,968 --> 00:41:01,268 Right? 1022 00:41:01,418 --> 00:41:05,348 So I'm not, the only reason, my only, my only question, this is literally a 1023 00:41:05,348 --> 00:41:09,188 one dimensional question, is will more people want it and use it in future? 1024 00:41:09,368 --> 00:41:11,438 How many more and where will the price settle? 1025 00:41:11,468 --> 00:41:12,248 'cause here's the other problem. 1026 00:41:12,698 --> 00:41:15,278 Let's say more people use it like the Woolies example, but the 1027 00:41:15,278 --> 00:41:16,988 price still settles at $50,000. 1028 00:41:17,678 --> 00:41:18,668 Because that's where we settle, right? 1029 00:41:18,908 --> 00:41:21,128 Even if I'm about more people using it, if the price is lower, 1030 00:41:21,398 --> 00:41:22,058 it doesn't make any difference. 1031 00:41:22,358 --> 00:41:22,718 Anja: Mm. And 1032 00:41:22,718 --> 00:41:25,328 Scott: if the, if it's brilliant, if it's the best invention ever and it settles 1033 00:41:25,328 --> 00:41:27,008 at $50,000, that's still the price. 1034 00:41:27,488 --> 00:41:30,398 So the price will be determined by the adoption and usage and demand, 1035 00:41:30,668 --> 00:41:32,768 not by however brilliant it might be. 1036 00:41:32,918 --> 00:41:35,723 Now, I. More people joining the cult is useful to me. 1037 00:41:35,993 --> 00:41:36,923 'cause that means more adoption. 1038 00:41:37,193 --> 00:41:40,163 So if other people read the book and go, oh my God, I, I 1039 00:41:40,163 --> 00:41:41,333 want Bitcoin, like, brilliant. 1040 00:41:41,573 --> 00:41:43,823 If you guys all want Bitcoin, there's like 21 million of them. 1041 00:41:43,823 --> 00:41:44,303 We know that. 1042 00:41:44,483 --> 00:41:45,893 And the people who own them already already own them. 1043 00:41:45,893 --> 00:41:47,453 And they're only gonna sell 'em at a higher price. 1044 00:41:47,633 --> 00:41:51,773 So, hey, if a lot of people join the Church of Bitcoin, then I'm stoked. 1045 00:41:51,773 --> 00:41:51,848 Right? 1046 00:41:51,848 --> 00:41:54,083 'cause they're gonna want more because they want their share of the pie. 1047 00:41:54,593 --> 00:41:58,253 Um, I somebody a bit, a bit merc about it, that's exactly what it's, for me, 1048 00:41:58,253 --> 00:41:59,813 it's, it's just, it was gonna go up. 1049 00:42:01,658 --> 00:42:03,338 I don't mean to say arrogant, say I don't have to read anymore about 1050 00:42:03,338 --> 00:42:04,363 pic, Bitcoin or all, I dunno, all. 1051 00:42:05,423 --> 00:42:08,873 What I am saying is I don't, it doesn't matter how much I know what matters 1052 00:42:08,873 --> 00:42:09,923 or how much other people want it. 1053 00:42:10,103 --> 00:42:11,603 So it's about them, not about me. 1054 00:42:11,603 --> 00:42:12,863 From this point forward, in my view, 1055 00:42:14,513 --> 00:42:16,673 Speaker: Not your keys, not your coins. 1056 00:42:17,213 --> 00:42:21,293 If you're holding Bitcoin, your self custody setup needs to be done right. 1057 00:42:22,043 --> 00:42:26,543 Mine racks delivers paranoia grade security so that you can sleep at night 1058 00:42:26,543 --> 00:42:28,583 knowing that your money is protected. 1059 00:42:29,453 --> 00:42:32,333 Take control and secure your money the honest way. 1060 00:42:32,723 --> 00:42:36,113 Head to mine racks.com/honest Money. 1061 00:42:36,978 --> 00:42:40,188 Anja: I've, yeah, I've learned to take a funny, like just the joke 1062 00:42:40,188 --> 00:42:41,958 around the whole cult mentality. 1063 00:42:41,958 --> 00:42:44,058 Like even yesterday I was, I was, um. 1064 00:42:44,148 --> 00:42:48,858 I noticed on Twitter that Gerard Renick is um, mm-hmm, gonna be in kind of the 1065 00:42:48,858 --> 00:42:53,418 Northern Rivers region doing some visits, um, and, and talks at community centers. 1066 00:42:53,418 --> 00:42:57,288 So he is gonna be like in Grafton and Tamworth and C Harbor 1067 00:42:57,288 --> 00:42:58,578 and a few places like that. 1068 00:42:58,578 --> 00:43:01,878 And, and I sent a question to the community and I was like, 1069 00:43:01,878 --> 00:43:04,693 does anyone wanna go say hey, 'cause he hates Bitcoiners. 1070 00:43:05,193 --> 00:43:05,693 Oh, right, okay. 1071 00:43:05,693 --> 00:43:06,498 He hates us. 1072 00:43:06,858 --> 00:43:09,528 And, and I just thought like, let's go, let's be friendly. 1073 00:43:09,618 --> 00:43:10,908 And everyone's like, no. 1074 00:43:12,408 --> 00:43:15,108 And I'm like, so you're saying you don't wanna show up with the 1075 00:43:15,318 --> 00:43:18,228 Bitcoin standard in one hand saying, we are from the private sector. 1076 00:43:18,228 --> 00:43:19,128 We are here to help. 1077 00:43:20,658 --> 00:43:22,983 Scott: So, so, and that, and that's kind of the, so I, I say 1078 00:43:22,983 --> 00:43:25,233 cult and, and I'm being funny and I'm being a little bit serious. 1079 00:43:25,233 --> 00:43:27,423 'cause man, there is some cult-like behavior about it. 1080 00:43:27,843 --> 00:43:29,373 For some, for no, but from some people, right? 1081 00:43:29,373 --> 00:43:32,013 So you can be, you can be a fundamentalist Christian or you can 1082 00:43:32,013 --> 00:43:34,443 be a Sunday Christian, or you can just be a, a broad believer, right? 1083 00:43:34,743 --> 00:43:35,913 And same with the other faiths. 1084 00:43:36,063 --> 00:43:36,843 Um, and that's great. 1085 00:43:36,843 --> 00:43:39,693 I's not a, it's just there's different people by the way. 1086 00:43:39,693 --> 00:43:42,663 I think the cult nature of it is really attractive. 1087 00:43:43,053 --> 00:43:44,978 What else is the cult Apple, Tesla? 1088 00:43:45,398 --> 00:43:46,298 Mm. Um, the, 1089 00:43:46,508 --> 00:43:48,998 Anja: I think that's also strength of it because 1090 00:43:48,998 --> 00:43:49,328 Scott: Totally. 1091 00:43:49,328 --> 00:43:49,838 That's what I'm saying. 1092 00:43:49,868 --> 00:43:50,978 That's, that's what I love about it. 1093 00:43:51,038 --> 00:43:54,038 So as an investor, I'm like, what literal, I mean, I'm being, I'm being facetious. 1094 00:43:54,038 --> 00:43:54,308 Oh no. 1095 00:43:54,428 --> 00:43:55,208 I'm trying to be funny about it. 1096 00:43:55,208 --> 00:43:55,513 Just 'cause it's fun. 1097 00:43:56,373 --> 00:43:58,233 The more people who, who joined the Bitcoin cult, the better. 1098 00:43:58,473 --> 00:44:01,473 If you are all in and you are adding, oh man, I'm gonna turn my entire 1099 00:44:01,473 --> 00:44:02,403 investment into bitcoin's, like, great. 1100 00:44:02,403 --> 00:44:03,153 Another one for the tally. 1101 00:44:03,513 --> 00:44:08,193 And if I'm making, if Myco, here's the, the Bitcoin be I've got is not literally, 1102 00:44:08,193 --> 00:44:09,093 but you know why I bought Bitcoin. 1103 00:44:09,423 --> 00:44:10,588 If the church gets bigger, I make money. 1104 00:44:11,188 --> 00:44:13,168 That's literally, that's literally the story, right? 1105 00:44:13,168 --> 00:44:14,098 So I love it. 1106 00:44:14,098 --> 00:44:14,753 I love that it's a cult. 1107 00:44:14,793 --> 00:44:16,678 I love that people wanna jump in, know a lot people wanna be part of it. 1108 00:44:16,828 --> 00:44:19,588 Now, if the cult member will drink the Kool-Aid and the whole thing 1109 00:44:19,588 --> 00:44:20,968 falls over in massive trouble, right? 1110 00:44:21,178 --> 00:44:22,408 Just to kinda extend the cult idea. 1111 00:44:22,408 --> 00:44:24,268 So yeah, there's gotta be a sustained cult. 1112 00:44:24,418 --> 00:44:25,408 Like Apple has been. 1113 00:44:25,438 --> 00:44:29,038 I mean, apples, the Apple phones are a little bit better than the others. 1114 00:44:29,278 --> 00:44:30,178 Maybe not even, right? 1115 00:44:30,298 --> 00:44:32,698 I, I own a Pixel, it's great. 1116 00:44:33,418 --> 00:44:33,448 Anja: Mm. 1117 00:44:34,138 --> 00:44:37,348 Scott: But Apple makes a Squillion dollars more in profit 'cause people love their 1118 00:44:37,348 --> 00:44:39,658 apple more than they love their pixels more than they love their Samsung. 1119 00:44:40,488 --> 00:44:43,818 And it's like, as an investor, I was an idiot 'cause I didn't buy Apple. 1120 00:44:44,448 --> 00:44:46,783 I, I looked at Tesla and went, I dunno how to value this. 1121 00:44:47,463 --> 00:44:48,423 And it's like, I'm an idiot. 1122 00:44:48,693 --> 00:44:49,443 People love Tesla. 1123 00:44:49,443 --> 00:44:49,923 They love Elon. 1124 00:44:49,923 --> 00:44:52,353 Like the cult of Elon is, I mean, man, Bitcoin's got nothing 1125 00:44:52,353 --> 00:44:53,403 on the cult of Elon, you know? 1126 00:44:53,403 --> 00:44:57,333 And so like, that, that stuff is like, as an investor, I'm like, I want products. 1127 00:44:57,843 --> 00:44:59,583 I wanna own products, I wanna own companies. 1128 00:44:59,943 --> 00:45:03,033 I'm, or assets like Bitcoin, where people are like, I'm in, I'm so 1129 00:45:03,033 --> 00:45:05,583 in, I've got the laser eyes, I've got the Bitcoin tattooed on my arm. 1130 00:45:05,883 --> 00:45:08,763 Uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna push, I'm gonna turn up at the Northern Rivers and copy 1131 00:45:08,763 --> 00:45:12,243 the Bitcoin standard and, and you know, try, try and get, I mean, that's that, 1132 00:45:12,243 --> 00:45:15,273 seriously, like that, that's the, that's the key that's I'm looking at going. 1133 00:45:15,548 --> 00:45:18,608 I mean, if that keeps happening, I imagine, imagine, and this, again, I don't 1134 00:45:18,608 --> 00:45:22,388 mean to make it too cult annoy anyone, or if anyone who's, who's religious. 1135 00:45:22,778 --> 00:45:25,838 But imagine, imagine you, you turn, you turn up on the third day after Jesus rises 1136 00:45:25,838 --> 00:45:29,258 from the cross and you go from the grave and you go, this might be big one day. 1137 00:45:29,678 --> 00:45:31,028 Imagine if I could have a share of Christianity. 1138 00:45:31,058 --> 00:45:33,578 Now, obviously you couldn't but think, but think, you know, like, 1139 00:45:33,578 --> 00:45:36,068 think about that, like the very idea that we could go to that. 1140 00:45:36,098 --> 00:45:37,838 Same with the other religions, I said aside about Christianity. 1141 00:45:37,838 --> 00:45:39,788 Just have, have that background as a, as a kid. 1142 00:45:40,088 --> 00:45:40,418 Um. 1143 00:45:41,343 --> 00:45:41,793 Like that. 1144 00:45:41,793 --> 00:45:44,913 If that's the story, then man, if I, if I can get leverage to 1145 00:45:44,913 --> 00:45:47,103 the growth of that, then I'm in. 1146 00:45:47,283 --> 00:45:49,473 So that, yeah, I, I, I kid about it. 1147 00:45:49,478 --> 00:45:50,733 I, I hope I'm not offending of you listeners. 1148 00:45:50,733 --> 00:45:52,683 I hope they're all got a decent sense of humor somewhere. 1149 00:45:52,683 --> 00:45:55,503 I mean, by the way, if you're offended, if you're offended by it, it might be 'cause 1150 00:45:55,503 --> 00:45:56,553 you're actually a member of the cult. 1151 00:45:56,763 --> 00:45:58,773 Uh, if you're not offended by it, you, you're probably not. 1152 00:45:58,773 --> 00:45:59,973 And that either of those is cool. 1153 00:46:00,273 --> 00:46:02,823 Um, but yeah, that, that's just my, that's my thought about the adoption curve. 1154 00:46:02,823 --> 00:46:05,403 And that's why it's so powerful, by the way, is the true believers 1155 00:46:05,403 --> 00:46:06,843 are, man, they are full on. 1156 00:46:07,293 --> 00:46:08,073 And that's, and that's great. 1157 00:46:08,073 --> 00:46:09,843 It's, you're out there preaching the good word. 1158 00:46:09,843 --> 00:46:10,533 And if that works. 1159 00:46:10,863 --> 00:46:11,643 Then we'll get rich. 1160 00:46:12,093 --> 00:46:12,393 Anja: Yep. 1161 00:46:12,603 --> 00:46:16,923 I'm definitely a member of the cult with a sense of humor, so, um, but yeah, it's so 1162 00:46:16,923 --> 00:46:20,703 interesting 'cause when I was introduced to Bitcoin, uh, they told me it's like 1163 00:46:20,703 --> 00:46:24,483 you're gonna go through a phase where you become phase, where you become overzealous 1164 00:46:24,783 --> 00:46:27,843 and a hundred percent happened, and I'm kind of coming out of the other end. 1165 00:46:27,843 --> 00:46:30,663 I was like, wow, maybe I'm coming across too strong. 1166 00:46:32,363 --> 00:46:36,113 And now I'm watching all the people that I orange build cut kind of go 1167 00:46:36,113 --> 00:46:37,433 through this phase and I'm like, wow. 1168 00:46:37,433 --> 00:46:38,303 That's what I was like, 1169 00:46:40,118 --> 00:46:40,408 Scott: yeah. 1170 00:46:40,553 --> 00:46:40,943 Right. 1171 00:46:41,033 --> 00:46:44,033 Now, by the way, I love that people care that much. 1172 00:46:44,568 --> 00:46:46,758 You know, if, if you're there interested, if you, if you, if you're, 1173 00:46:47,118 --> 00:46:49,998 if, if you created a culture, I get rich, then I have no time for you. 1174 00:46:50,418 --> 00:46:53,148 If you've created a cult, you're like, man, I've seen the truth, and 1175 00:46:53,148 --> 00:46:56,148 the truth will set you free and I need everyone else to know it 'cause 1176 00:46:56,148 --> 00:46:58,098 I just believe this so fervently. 1177 00:46:58,338 --> 00:46:58,548 Anja: Mm-hmm. 1178 00:46:58,818 --> 00:47:01,398 Scott: It's still not necessarily particularly lovely to hang out with 1179 00:47:01,398 --> 00:47:04,728 some of those people sometimes, but I, but I love the passion is genuinely 1180 00:47:04,728 --> 00:47:08,208 held and genuinely felt, and you just wanna make it for all the reasons. 1181 00:47:08,358 --> 00:47:10,878 Bitcoin is great if it becomes. 1182 00:47:11,253 --> 00:47:12,603 Uh, the money. 1183 00:47:13,173 --> 00:47:14,673 That's a really good result, right? 1184 00:47:14,973 --> 00:47:16,263 Again, really painful to go through. 1185 00:47:16,263 --> 00:47:17,253 We haven't got time to that moment. 1186 00:47:17,253 --> 00:47:19,743 I'm happy to if you want to, but who knows what that, what that looks like. 1187 00:47:20,043 --> 00:47:23,313 It's gonna be messy as hell and it's gonna hurt like hell and it's gonna 1188 00:47:23,313 --> 00:47:24,723 a really significant adjustment. 1189 00:47:24,993 --> 00:47:26,673 If on the other side of that we go. 1190 00:47:26,958 --> 00:47:29,058 It was worth it then great i'm all for it. 1191 00:47:29,418 --> 00:47:32,478 Um, so yeah, if, if you, if you're there for the mission, if you love the 1192 00:47:32,478 --> 00:47:34,428 mission, if you wanna be part of the mission, if you wanna go and knock on 1193 00:47:34,428 --> 00:47:37,818 doors like the JWS or, or stand at the railway station out pamphlets, great. 1194 00:47:37,818 --> 00:47:38,118 Go for it. 1195 00:47:38,328 --> 00:47:41,538 If you know, if, because the other thing is if people, if it is better 1196 00:47:41,688 --> 00:47:42,658 and people think it's better, yeah. 1197 00:47:43,338 --> 00:47:43,788 Then great. 1198 00:47:44,058 --> 00:47:44,178 Yeah. 1199 00:47:44,178 --> 00:47:45,288 Then we end up, we win. 1200 00:47:45,288 --> 00:47:45,468 Right? 1201 00:47:45,468 --> 00:47:48,378 Eventually, I don't mean winners in Bitcoin as win, I mean, society wins. 1202 00:47:48,708 --> 00:47:50,868 So yeah, if you, if you're a member of the cult and the cult is doing good 1203 00:47:50,868 --> 00:47:54,438 things and you're not, you know, messing with other people, then fantastic. 1204 00:47:54,438 --> 00:47:54,738 Love it. 1205 00:47:54,918 --> 00:47:55,398 Go for it. 1206 00:47:55,818 --> 00:47:59,118 Just also, by the way, and back to what I said before, if you are one 1207 00:47:59,118 --> 00:48:02,718 of the cult, um, just recognize that sometimes your fervor can 1208 00:48:02,718 --> 00:48:03,768 be off-putting for other people. 1209 00:48:04,038 --> 00:48:06,738 Um, I will say, I think it's very likely if I'm, if I'm 1210 00:48:06,738 --> 00:48:07,758 honest about my subconscious. 1211 00:48:08,598 --> 00:48:11,988 I suspect part of what took me so long to get into Bitcoin the second 1212 00:48:11,988 --> 00:48:13,638 time around, no, seriously was 1213 00:48:14,478 --> 00:48:14,998 Anja: this is, look at those picture. 1214 00:48:14,998 --> 00:48:16,098 This is true for many people. 1215 00:48:16,098 --> 00:48:16,458 I know what 1216 00:48:16,458 --> 00:48:16,758 Scott: you're gonna 1217 00:48:16,758 --> 00:48:17,208 Anja: see, right? 1218 00:48:17,268 --> 00:48:17,538 Yep. 1219 00:48:17,543 --> 00:48:17,853 Scott: Right. 1220 00:48:17,853 --> 00:48:18,333 And so it's like. 1221 00:48:19,428 --> 00:48:20,988 I don't, I don't wanna be like you. 1222 00:48:21,288 --> 00:48:22,368 I think you're over the top. 1223 00:48:22,878 --> 00:48:25,128 I instinctively if you, if someone pushes you, what do you do? 1224 00:48:25,133 --> 00:48:27,438 You, you either push back or you just get outta there, right? 1225 00:48:27,678 --> 00:48:27,888 Anja: Yeah. 1226 00:48:27,978 --> 00:48:29,838 Scott: Either way, you're not being invited to the table, you're 1227 00:48:29,838 --> 00:48:32,178 being either pushed into the table or pushed away from the table. 1228 00:48:32,508 --> 00:48:36,798 And so in both cases, like, dude, no, no, I'm not, I I'm instinctively 1229 00:48:36,798 --> 00:48:39,258 putting up a barrier here because I don't want to hear your crap. 1230 00:48:39,528 --> 00:48:40,098 Excuse my language. 1231 00:48:40,488 --> 00:48:43,728 Um, so I'm not, and, and it's probably cost me money, frankly. 1232 00:48:43,728 --> 00:48:45,168 And that's on me, not on anybody else. 1233 00:48:45,168 --> 00:48:47,598 But the reality is, you, you already made the point. 1234 00:48:48,173 --> 00:48:51,078 Put it there, let people come to it, rather pushing it on them. 1235 00:48:51,438 --> 00:48:53,538 By all means, make them aware of it, hope 'em understand it. 1236 00:48:53,538 --> 00:48:56,088 All the stuff you've said already in the, the sound money book 1237 00:48:56,088 --> 00:48:56,988 is a, is a great a breakaway. 1238 00:48:56,988 --> 00:48:57,738 So it's a great way to do that. 1239 00:48:58,068 --> 00:49:02,083 Um, but yeah, just if you're, if you're in the company, you're a 1240 00:49:02,083 --> 00:49:04,218 true believer, just let people come. 1241 00:49:04,398 --> 00:49:05,478 Don't try and force it on them. 1242 00:49:05,478 --> 00:49:06,798 'cause that will push them away in most cases. 1243 00:49:07,458 --> 00:49:12,048 Anja: Yeah, it's interesting now, like I'm thinking how, where would we be at 1244 00:49:12,048 --> 00:49:13,878 with adoption if we weren't like this? 1245 00:49:14,568 --> 00:49:15,828 Scott: Well, no, but so here's the other thing, right? 1246 00:49:15,828 --> 00:49:16,848 So I think probably worse. 1247 00:49:17,208 --> 00:49:17,268 Anja: Okay. 1248 00:49:17,268 --> 00:49:17,358 Right? 1249 00:49:17,358 --> 00:49:18,323 ' Scott: cause you need you, 1250 00:49:18,438 --> 00:49:18,708 Anja: yeah. 1251 00:49:18,708 --> 00:49:22,488 Scott: You need the cult to get, like, you need the, the, the critical mass when, 1252 00:49:22,488 --> 00:49:24,048 when no one wants to turn up to church. 1253 00:49:24,318 --> 00:49:27,258 But the same 14 people turn up every week and keep the church alive while 1254 00:49:27,258 --> 00:49:28,428 they wait for other people to come back. 1255 00:49:29,058 --> 00:49:30,618 Without those people, the church dies. 1256 00:49:30,618 --> 00:49:35,728 I mean, if, if the true believers all went, oh yeah, let's not bother you. 1257 00:49:35,733 --> 00:49:36,603 You don't. 1258 00:49:36,603 --> 00:49:37,173 So it's, it's up. 1259 00:49:37,173 --> 00:49:40,533 And that's what I was saying before about the, the cult members push people 1260 00:49:40,533 --> 00:49:43,323 away, but without the cult members, there's nothing to push to bring them to. 1261 00:49:43,893 --> 00:49:46,563 So it, it, it's, it's, it's intrinsically linked. 1262 00:49:47,283 --> 00:49:49,863 And that makes it both wonderful and hard. 1263 00:49:50,193 --> 00:49:51,963 But you can't have only the, the other, you can't have the 1264 00:49:51,963 --> 00:49:52,578 adoption and the awareness. 1265 00:49:53,403 --> 00:49:56,313 Without the, without the really hardcore, true believers, right? 1266 00:49:56,613 --> 00:49:59,193 But those people are also making it harder for adoption at the same time. 1267 00:49:59,403 --> 00:50:00,633 So you need them for it. 1268 00:50:01,173 --> 00:50:04,113 You kind of need them to at some point go, our job is done here. 1269 00:50:04,113 --> 00:50:04,773 We've seeded it. 1270 00:50:04,833 --> 00:50:06,033 It's like a startup founder, right? 1271 00:50:06,243 --> 00:50:08,043 Some people are great at starting businesses, but not 1272 00:50:08,043 --> 00:50:08,733 very good at running them. 1273 00:50:09,093 --> 00:50:11,583 And at some point you go, I started up, I've done my thing. 1274 00:50:11,583 --> 00:50:12,363 Here we go. 1275 00:50:12,618 --> 00:50:13,308 I'm gonna hand it over. 1276 00:50:13,338 --> 00:50:16,308 Not necessarily, not literally keep your investment and do your thing, but just 1277 00:50:16,308 --> 00:50:20,568 recognize that adoption of anything, new technology, new product, new idea, 1278 00:50:20,568 --> 00:50:26,088 new money, uh, requires people to be able to be, be, um, brought on board 1279 00:50:26,088 --> 00:50:28,428 in a very non-confrontational way. 1280 00:50:28,848 --> 00:50:31,548 Mm. 'cause they see the opportunity for themselves rather having feel 1281 00:50:31,548 --> 00:50:32,538 like they're being pushed into it. 1282 00:50:32,538 --> 00:50:34,338 And that becomes, because that's when you get the instinctive kind of 1283 00:50:34,338 --> 00:50:35,898 push back, eh, just leave me alone. 1284 00:50:35,898 --> 00:50:36,258 Go away. 1285 00:50:36,648 --> 00:50:38,598 Uh, so that, I, I think that's probably part of the problem, but 1286 00:50:38,598 --> 00:50:39,798 I said, I'm not gonna criticize it. 1287 00:50:39,798 --> 00:50:40,848 'cause you don't without it. 1288 00:50:41,188 --> 00:50:42,058 There is no Bitcoin community. 1289 00:50:42,088 --> 00:50:43,468 Without it, there is no sound money. 1290 00:50:43,468 --> 00:50:45,298 Without it, there is no et cetera, et cetera. 1291 00:50:45,298 --> 00:50:45,448 Right. 1292 00:50:45,448 --> 00:50:46,918 It becomes a, it's the techies. 1293 00:50:47,158 --> 00:50:49,198 Uh, we're back to 2000 and whatever, 14. 1294 00:50:49,198 --> 00:50:51,328 As you mentioned before, and maybe we're still at 2014 levels. 1295 00:50:52,408 --> 00:50:56,158 The, the, the, the true believes that a great service, but broader 1296 00:50:56,158 --> 00:51:01,798 of adoption requires it to be more accessible and less polemic than I think 1297 00:51:01,798 --> 00:51:02,833 the first couple of legs of growth. 1298 00:51:03,633 --> 00:51:05,673 Anja: Yeah, that's, yeah, that's very interesting. 1299 00:51:05,703 --> 00:51:10,263 Um, but I think the cult members would be mad if I didn't ask you if you 1300 00:51:10,263 --> 00:51:12,213 understand the difficulty adjustment. 1301 00:51:12,363 --> 00:51:12,633 Scott: Yes. 1302 00:51:12,693 --> 00:51:14,253 Uh, only conceptually. 1303 00:51:14,313 --> 00:51:16,683 I know absolutely nothing about the technological technology behind 1304 00:51:16,683 --> 00:51:18,243 it, but yes, I'm absolutely aware of the difficulty adjustment. 1305 00:51:18,543 --> 00:51:19,083 Um, yep. 1306 00:51:20,133 --> 00:51:22,713 And again, so here's the, I know, I know you had to ask it, and I'm, I'm gonna, 1307 00:51:22,713 --> 00:51:25,383 again, you that broken record you, by the way, cut this podcast down at 15 minutes. 1308 00:51:25,413 --> 00:51:26,703 'cause I repeated myself all over the time. 1309 00:51:26,703 --> 00:51:27,933 No, no course. 1310 00:51:27,933 --> 00:51:28,758 But, but the, you know. 1311 00:51:29,233 --> 00:51:33,793 I don't need to, I don't need to, uh, to, um, I don't need to know or believe or 1312 00:51:33,793 --> 00:51:37,903 accept it in the sense that knowing more about it, it's like, oh, it does that. 1313 00:51:37,903 --> 00:51:38,023 Yeah. 1314 00:51:38,233 --> 00:51:39,553 Oh, in that case, I think everyone's gonna adopt it. 1315 00:51:39,553 --> 00:51:40,033 All of a sudden, 1316 00:51:40,183 --> 00:51:40,333 Anja: well, 1317 00:51:40,453 --> 00:51:41,023 Scott: don't know how 1318 00:51:41,023 --> 00:51:43,903 Anja: thees combustion engine works and you drive a car, so, 1319 00:51:44,383 --> 00:51:44,623 Scott: right. 1320 00:51:45,043 --> 00:51:47,503 And well, but even, but even there's not even me. 1321 00:51:47,563 --> 00:51:48,643 See, this is, you're right. 1322 00:51:48,823 --> 00:51:51,043 There's other things like I, I don't have to know how the pressure 1323 00:51:51,043 --> 00:51:52,093 was for me to drive the car. 1324 00:51:52,513 --> 00:51:53,743 I didn't even have to drive the car. 1325 00:51:54,193 --> 00:51:55,303 I just have to look at everyone else going. 1326 00:51:55,488 --> 00:51:56,538 They're all driving cars. 1327 00:51:56,748 --> 00:51:59,238 Gee, cars must be, must be, cars must be a thing. 1328 00:51:59,478 --> 00:52:00,288 Cars are useful. 1329 00:52:00,438 --> 00:52:01,908 Uh, and more people are driving cars now. 1330 00:52:02,148 --> 00:52:04,068 Well, do more people understand the internal combustion engine? 1331 00:52:04,098 --> 00:52:04,458 No. 1332 00:52:04,668 --> 00:52:07,128 Uh, did I have to have a stronger conviction than combustion engine 1333 00:52:07,128 --> 00:52:08,058 for more cars to be driven? 1334 00:52:08,118 --> 00:52:10,968 No, I just, cars just became more popular 'cause people 1335 00:52:10,968 --> 00:52:12,738 went, huh, I should use a car. 1336 00:52:12,738 --> 00:52:14,548 I'm like, ah, man, glad I've got shares in the car, car. 1337 00:52:14,838 --> 00:52:15,678 'cause I was right about that. 1338 00:52:15,978 --> 00:52:17,958 And so for me, that, that's, you're exactly right, mate. 1339 00:52:17,958 --> 00:52:18,558 I'm not gonna say. 1340 00:52:19,013 --> 00:52:22,808 I, I, I knew a little bit the combustion, so I bought one share and then I learned 1341 00:52:22,988 --> 00:52:26,108 that fuel injection's a thing, and so I bought five shares, and then someone 1342 00:52:26,108 --> 00:52:29,318 told me about the way that spark plugs work with the, oh, so I bought 10 shares. 1343 00:52:29,453 --> 00:52:30,518 I was like, I don't need to know that. 1344 00:52:30,518 --> 00:52:31,598 I, I know it, it works. 1345 00:52:31,598 --> 00:52:32,708 I understand that it's a car. 1346 00:52:32,888 --> 00:52:33,818 The combustion engine works. 1347 00:52:33,818 --> 00:52:34,118 I know it. 1348 00:52:34,238 --> 00:52:35,558 Fuel goes in the combust. 1349 00:52:35,558 --> 00:52:36,428 Literally, that's the idea. 1350 00:52:36,548 --> 00:52:37,718 Drives the pistons, drives the wheels. 1351 00:52:37,718 --> 00:52:37,988 Cool. 1352 00:52:38,018 --> 00:52:38,228 Okay. 1353 00:52:38,228 --> 00:52:38,588 Got it. 1354 00:52:40,118 --> 00:52:41,618 Is it worth more if I know more about the car? 1355 00:52:41,708 --> 00:52:45,278 No, not unless other people also go, I want the car, so 1356 00:52:45,278 --> 00:52:45,968 yeah, you're exactly right. 1357 00:52:45,968 --> 00:52:46,988 That's a perfect example. 1358 00:52:47,463 --> 00:52:47,733 Anja: Hmm. 1359 00:52:48,063 --> 00:52:51,843 I didn't think I would find the cryptography side of things or the 1360 00:52:51,843 --> 00:52:56,793 technical side of things interesting because for me, like reading the Bitcoin 1361 00:52:56,793 --> 00:53:00,243 standard, which is more like the economics case for it, like understanding hard 1362 00:53:00,243 --> 00:53:05,313 money and understanding monetary history, that was enough, but I was so surprised. 1363 00:53:05,883 --> 00:53:10,203 How, when I started learning about cryptography, how fascinated I 1364 00:53:10,203 --> 00:53:13,413 was and, and I remember learning about the difficulty adjustment 1365 00:53:13,443 --> 00:53:16,443 'cause I knew of the supply cap and I'm like, okay, I understand. 1366 00:53:16,443 --> 00:53:21,003 You know, it's the only finite asset that we have that has truly scarce. 1367 00:53:21,513 --> 00:53:22,043 Um, yes, yes. 1368 00:53:22,653 --> 00:53:26,493 And, but then the difficulty adjustment, I'm feel like that's the magic 1369 00:53:26,493 --> 00:53:28,743 because you are moderating the supply. 1370 00:53:28,743 --> 00:53:30,153 You can't just flood the supply. 1371 00:53:30,153 --> 00:53:31,533 Like, and I, I just 1372 00:53:31,533 --> 00:53:31,953 Scott: way of supply too. 1373 00:53:31,953 --> 00:53:32,253 Exactly. 1374 00:53:32,253 --> 00:53:32,433 Yes. 1375 00:53:32,433 --> 00:53:32,703 That's right. 1376 00:53:32,823 --> 00:53:33,153 Anja: Yeah. 1377 00:53:33,153 --> 00:53:36,153 And it's like, it's, it's insane that someone had thought of this. 1378 00:53:36,153 --> 00:53:38,313 And, and again, just to, to, right. 1379 00:53:38,313 --> 00:53:41,313 Just quickly explain the mechanism for, for any listeners that 1380 00:53:41,313 --> 00:53:43,503 are not, um, familiar with it. 1381 00:53:43,503 --> 00:53:47,553 Basically it's a mechanism that ensures that blocks a mind 1382 00:53:47,583 --> 00:53:49,413 approximately every 10 minutes. 1383 00:53:49,458 --> 00:53:53,268 And that is to ensure that, um, regardless of the changes in the 1384 00:53:53,298 --> 00:53:56,898 network, computational power, which is also called the hash rate. 1385 00:53:57,138 --> 00:54:00,408 So if you get a lot of miners on board who are trying to compete, 1386 00:54:00,468 --> 00:54:03,408 um, for the hash, basically they. 1387 00:54:04,848 --> 00:54:10,638 Adjust every two weeks, or actually specifically every 2016 blocks. 1388 00:54:10,638 --> 00:54:10,648 Mm-hmm. 1389 00:54:10,648 --> 00:54:12,648 Which is approximately every two weeks. 1390 00:54:12,978 --> 00:54:18,978 And fun fact is, um, some people think that the reason 216 blocks 1391 00:54:18,978 --> 00:54:22,068 were chosen is because, is the, and I don't believe you this, but it's 1392 00:54:22,068 --> 00:54:24,408 because it's the re reverse of 61. 1393 00:54:24,498 --> 00:54:24,648 Oh. 1394 00:54:26,373 --> 00:54:26,553 Yeah. 1395 00:54:26,553 --> 00:54:27,723 61. Oh two. 1396 00:54:27,903 --> 00:54:28,953 61. Yeah. 1397 00:54:28,983 --> 00:54:30,513 I'm trying to reverse it in my mind. 1398 00:54:30,843 --> 00:54:34,623 Oh two executive order, which was to confiscate people's gold. 1399 00:54:35,298 --> 00:54:36,138 Scott: All right. 1400 00:54:36,138 --> 00:54:39,138 That's a cool, I, I dunno if that's true, but it's a nice, it's a nice story. 1401 00:54:39,138 --> 00:54:39,683 That's, that's really cool. 1402 00:54:39,713 --> 00:54:42,798 Anja: It's a great story, but I, I think maybe, I hope there was some 1403 00:54:42,798 --> 00:54:44,898 more mathematical rigor behind it. 1404 00:54:44,898 --> 00:54:47,898 They're just like, let me pick something symbolic. 1405 00:54:48,588 --> 00:54:49,068 Scott: Think of a reverse. 1406 00:54:49,068 --> 00:54:50,448 You might as well it the first place I, yeah. 1407 00:54:50,448 --> 00:54:51,378 Like, and that's right. 1408 00:54:51,378 --> 00:54:56,638 Like I, the, the, the combination of the, the, the genius, the absolute 1409 00:54:56,638 --> 00:55:01,228 genius of the Bitcoin cryptography and the concept and the proof of 1410 00:55:01,858 --> 00:55:03,238 add all those things together right? 1411 00:55:03,658 --> 00:55:05,818 And it is just mind blowingly good. 1412 00:55:06,028 --> 00:55:10,348 I am, I'm in awe of satoshi slash whoever that they or him or her is. 1413 00:55:10,678 --> 00:55:13,918 And the, but also the group, the group who, 'cause, and I know you know 1414 00:55:13,918 --> 00:55:17,008 this, the beauty of Bitcoin wasn't inventing much, if anything at all. 1415 00:55:17,428 --> 00:55:19,858 It was kind of going, have, I had a bit of that and a bit of that, and 1416 00:55:19,858 --> 00:55:20,638 a bit of that and a bit of that. 1417 00:55:20,638 --> 00:55:21,718 And I, I put it all together. 1418 00:55:22,698 --> 00:55:26,088 That would be a really cool way to actually have money. 1419 00:55:27,258 --> 00:55:28,158 And it still blows my mind. 1420 00:55:28,158 --> 00:55:30,678 Even I'm talking about now, I've, I've, I'm not anywhere near an expert, right? 1421 00:55:30,678 --> 00:55:33,438 But the, the conversations and the, the research and the reading I've done, 1422 00:55:33,618 --> 00:55:36,318 it's like you put all those things together and you made this thing that 1423 00:55:36,318 --> 00:55:39,543 seems to be about as perfect as anyone can think of 'cause we still haven 1424 00:55:39,543 --> 00:55:42,258 been able to find, you know, there's the occasional, uh, software upgrade. 1425 00:55:42,263 --> 00:55:45,498 But, you know, broadly speaking, the kind of content we started with, it's 1426 00:55:45,498 --> 00:55:48,888 like without any of those things, this thing kind of falls over, right? 1427 00:55:49,248 --> 00:55:51,408 And so imagine without the difficulty adjustment. 1428 00:55:52,113 --> 00:55:55,263 The, the computing power over the last however many, you know, decade 1429 00:55:55,263 --> 00:55:58,413 and a half, I mean, and then go forward another two decades without 1430 00:55:58,413 --> 00:55:59,283 that, the whole thing falls over. 1431 00:55:59,283 --> 00:55:59,433 Right. 1432 00:55:59,643 --> 00:56:01,413 They've already been mined probably by now I suspect. 1433 00:56:02,643 --> 00:56:05,523 So, so, and throw in just proof of work. 1434 00:56:06,033 --> 00:56:09,363 The, just the broad concept of all that stuff together is just really cool. 1435 00:56:09,363 --> 00:56:11,733 I'm an expert, as I said, so I, that's why, I mean, I, I 1436 00:56:11,733 --> 00:56:12,483 don't need to be convinced. 1437 00:56:12,483 --> 00:56:16,443 Technology is amazing or the concept is incredible or, and I'm, I'm not prepared 1438 00:56:16,443 --> 00:56:19,413 to say it can't, nothing can be better either, by the way 'cause I don't know. 1439 00:56:19,413 --> 00:56:19,683 Right. 1440 00:56:20,643 --> 00:56:23,463 It's kind of back to leading the witness thing for the things we can think about. 1441 00:56:23,553 --> 00:56:24,363 That seems perfect. 1442 00:56:24,993 --> 00:56:28,593 If we got 50 years into the future and someone went, yeah, it turned 1443 00:56:28,593 --> 00:56:30,753 out you missed these two things and no one thought of 'em, it's like, 1444 00:56:30,993 --> 00:56:32,463 ah, yeah, okay, that makes sense. 1445 00:56:33,303 --> 00:56:34,173 We thought Bitcoin was the answer. 1446 00:56:34,173 --> 00:56:36,573 It turns out that these things were necessary and better and whatever. 1447 00:56:36,693 --> 00:56:39,543 Now so far, that doesn't seem likely 'cause we've gone far enough. 1448 00:56:39,543 --> 00:56:39,963 That's your point. 1449 00:56:39,963 --> 00:56:42,318 About 2014 versus today we got report was like. 1450 00:56:43,428 --> 00:56:43,668 Okay. 1451 00:56:43,668 --> 00:56:45,438 It's, it hasn't been done yet. 1452 00:56:45,498 --> 00:56:50,148 So the chance someone finds something genuinely revolutionarily, uh, either 1453 00:56:50,148 --> 00:56:51,888 whole or, sorry, doesn't do that. 1454 00:56:51,888 --> 00:56:52,428 Can't do that. 1455 00:56:52,428 --> 00:56:53,208 Maybe something else can do. 1456 00:56:53,208 --> 00:56:55,818 Or, and again, you can always change the, you can always change the, um. 1457 00:56:56,433 --> 00:56:57,123 The software, the code. 1458 00:56:57,123 --> 00:57:00,873 So maybe Bitcoin just incorporates, but either way, um, it just, it's just 1459 00:57:00,873 --> 00:57:02,703 so incredibly cool what it can do. 1460 00:57:02,703 --> 00:57:02,763 Yeah. 1461 00:57:02,943 --> 00:57:03,993 And I am with you guys. 1462 00:57:03,993 --> 00:57:06,153 I assume that, I dunno if you, you have actually, uh, certainly 1463 00:57:06,153 --> 00:57:08,703 Andrew Page, uh, is yeah, Bitcoin and everything else is rubbish. 1464 00:57:08,703 --> 00:57:10,053 Uh, I'm, I'm of that. 1465 00:57:10,113 --> 00:57:10,838 I'm of that, uh. 1466 00:57:11,268 --> 00:57:15,708 Um, view that at least as far as money goes, it seems like there 1467 00:57:15,708 --> 00:57:17,508 is no second, um, or no reason. 1468 00:57:18,258 --> 00:57:19,428 There is a second, but it's so far away. 1469 00:57:19,428 --> 00:57:22,518 It's not, you know, the, the, the, the, the genius of the, of, of the 1470 00:57:22,518 --> 00:57:24,348 code, the genius for the thinking Yeah. 1471 00:57:24,348 --> 00:57:25,548 Is just really, really super cool. 1472 00:57:25,548 --> 00:57:26,178 So yeah. 1473 00:57:26,208 --> 00:57:26,508 Love it. 1474 00:57:26,538 --> 00:57:29,028 Um, but that's kind of just to, that's why I haven't. 1475 00:57:29,568 --> 00:57:31,818 I don't need to be convinced any further that Bitcoin's great. 1476 00:57:32,208 --> 00:57:33,258 Um, other people do. 1477 00:57:33,348 --> 00:57:35,268 And so they should read the book and if they like it, they can buy some Bitcoin 1478 00:57:35,268 --> 00:57:36,528 and then my, the Bitcoin price goes up. 1479 00:57:36,528 --> 00:57:37,098 That'd be cool. 1480 00:57:37,488 --> 00:57:41,178 Um, but what I think is gonna have absolutely no difference to the currency 1481 00:57:41,178 --> 00:57:43,398 whatsoever, if I got more convicted. 1482 00:57:43,983 --> 00:57:45,093 But other people got less convicted. 1483 00:57:45,543 --> 00:57:45,723 Anja: Mm-hmm. 1484 00:57:45,813 --> 00:57:46,713 Scott: I would still lose money. 1485 00:57:47,193 --> 00:57:49,053 So it's, it's just, it's just not about me anymore. 1486 00:57:49,058 --> 00:57:49,893 I don't think it's about you anymore. 1487 00:57:49,893 --> 00:57:50,793 It's about any of us anymore. 1488 00:57:50,883 --> 00:57:51,693 It's about all of us. 1489 00:57:51,963 --> 00:57:53,793 Um, almost all certain, just the bitcoins. 1490 00:57:53,793 --> 00:57:56,973 I mean everybody, the degree to which we all go, I should do that. 1491 00:57:56,973 --> 00:57:57,543 I should use that. 1492 00:57:57,603 --> 00:57:59,973 I should use it as a medium exchange story about, that'd be cool. 1493 00:58:00,363 --> 00:58:00,543 Okay. 1494 00:58:00,543 --> 00:58:03,843 Well then things change, but that, that's the, that's the starting end point for me. 1495 00:58:04,923 --> 00:58:05,403 Anja: Love it. 1496 00:58:05,403 --> 00:58:05,883 Love it. 1497 00:58:05,883 --> 00:58:07,953 I, I really enjoyed this conversation. 1498 00:58:07,953 --> 00:58:10,983 I'll drop all the links with your podcast with Andrew. 1499 00:58:11,133 --> 00:58:11,403 Oh, thanks mate. 1500 00:58:11,403 --> 00:58:14,643 Um, Paige in the comments and anything else, you wanna add it there as well? 1501 00:58:14,643 --> 00:58:17,253 Sorry, in the show notes, not the comments and yeah. 1502 00:58:17,253 --> 00:58:19,318 Do you have any final things you wanna share with my audience? 1503 00:58:20,388 --> 00:58:20,928 Scott: Man. 1504 00:58:21,018 --> 00:58:22,878 Um, you've asked some really good questions. 1505 00:58:22,878 --> 00:58:24,588 I, I like the question about the book stuff and what else? 1506 00:58:24,588 --> 00:58:24,888 You ready? 1507 00:58:25,098 --> 00:58:26,448 Um, do you have any other thoughts? 1508 00:58:26,568 --> 00:58:30,438 No, other than I would encourage, as an investment advisor, I'd encourage people 1509 00:58:30,438 --> 00:58:34,848 to just think probabilistically rather than absolutely only because it keeps 1510 00:58:34,848 --> 00:58:36,828 your mind open to having it changed. 1511 00:58:37,218 --> 00:58:39,258 And you have to do that, right? 1512 00:58:39,258 --> 00:58:39,918 You have to do that. 1513 00:58:39,948 --> 00:58:42,618 'cause at some point, if, and it's Angela's massive Bitcoins, 1514 00:58:42,618 --> 00:58:47,328 you know, um, un unless you're proud of your mind, no one wins. 1515 00:58:47,538 --> 00:58:48,228 You don't win. 1516 00:58:48,798 --> 00:58:49,758 By having a closed mind. 1517 00:58:50,568 --> 00:58:52,578 Because if you're an open mind and you are, you're still right. 1518 00:58:53,718 --> 00:58:55,548 Having an open mind being correct is perfect, right? 1519 00:58:55,758 --> 00:58:57,498 Because you are open and you are right. 1520 00:58:58,338 --> 00:59:01,698 Having an closed mind and being wrong is, is is absolute destruction. 1521 00:59:01,908 --> 00:59:04,908 'cause I wasn't open to being committed to, and now I say otherwise, I 1522 00:59:04,908 --> 00:59:05,868 mean positive and negative, right? 1523 00:59:05,868 --> 00:59:08,383 Like literally, once you've decided to think must be true. 1524 00:59:09,333 --> 00:59:11,013 You're not used to yourself, let alone anybody else. 1525 00:59:11,343 --> 00:59:15,033 So keep an open mind, keep thinking about it, and if it, if it drives 1526 00:59:15,033 --> 00:59:16,233 you further down that path, do that. 1527 00:59:16,473 --> 00:59:18,483 If it drives you back from that path, that's okay too. 1528 00:59:18,843 --> 00:59:19,263 Um. 1529 00:59:19,923 --> 00:59:24,243 But certainty kills rational thought and you must remain rational as an 1530 00:59:24,243 --> 00:59:26,703 investor in whatever asset you're buying, whether it's Bitcoin or something else. 1531 00:59:26,823 --> 00:59:27,273 The stop. 1532 00:59:27,273 --> 00:59:30,873 The second you stop being rational and you start believing your own pr. 1533 00:59:31,443 --> 00:59:34,083 That's when you stop thinking and that's when mistakes can happen. 1534 00:59:34,083 --> 00:59:37,323 That's when you get yourself into trouble 'cause you're no longer looking for. 1535 00:59:37,773 --> 00:59:38,373 What if I'm wrong? 1536 00:59:38,763 --> 00:59:39,423 What if they're right? 1537 00:59:39,453 --> 00:59:41,343 What if something else that, that's the framework. 1538 00:59:41,373 --> 00:59:45,033 I think as an investor, you must bring to the table and then probabilistically. 1539 00:59:45,033 --> 00:59:49,563 If you're like, eh, it's a hundred percent, but 99%, 95, 70 5%, 58%. 1540 00:59:49,833 --> 00:59:51,513 More likely than not, you're at a political place. 1541 00:59:52,593 --> 00:59:53,043 Anja: Love it. 1542 00:59:53,373 --> 00:59:54,183 That that's, yeah. 1543 00:59:54,513 --> 00:59:56,523 Great, great message to leave everyone with. 1544 00:59:56,523 --> 00:59:58,023 Thank you so much for your time, Scott. 1545 00:59:58,923 --> 00:59:59,583 Scott: Absolute pressure. 1546 00:59:59,583 --> 01:00:00,218 Thanks for having me, Anya. 1547 01:00:00,219 --> 01:00:02,709 Speaker 4: Still here you are one of the good ones. 1548 01:00:03,189 --> 01:00:05,829 We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. 1549 01:00:06,189 --> 01:00:09,909 If you enjoy how we cut through the noise, consider supporting us 1550 01:00:09,909 --> 01:00:12,159 directly via the Lightning QR code. 1551 01:00:12,669 --> 01:00:14,709 Got a question or a thought to share? 1552 01:00:15,099 --> 01:00:16,449 Comments are wide open. 1553 01:00:16,749 --> 01:00:17,979 We'd love to hear from you. 1554 01:00:18,089 --> 01:00:23,369 For bonus content and updates, follow us on socials at Honest Money Show. 1555 01:00:24,419 --> 01:00:29,249 Until next week, take care of yourself and your money and stay decentralized.