Joe: There's reality, which is loving awareness,
Sam: unconcerned by the arising and passing away of phenomena.
Ali: And then there are the 10, 000
things.
Sam: Hello.
Welcome to the 10, 000 things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
I'm Joe Loh.
Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.
Joe: Today on the show, letting go of friends.
Let's get into it.
It's pretty simple, pretty self explanatory.
It is.
Uh, I've done a bit of it in the last year or two.
It seems to be an accelerating process.
Ali: Um, it does when you get older, I think you become much more,
mindful of the time that you do have.
And so you're The people that you do invest in, you want them
to be meaningful connections.
And so the acquaintances that you would have given a lot of time to in your
early twenties, you don't necessarily invest nearly that much in those 10
people tend to fall by the wayside.
Joe: So true.
My first rule of letting go of friends is "don't tell yourself that you're letting
go of them because you've outgrown them."
There's too much ego in that.
Yeah It's not obvious a lot of the time why a friendship has drifted.
That's such a good point.
Second rule of letting go of friends is Try not texting or calling someone who
has your number and see what happens Yeah And if you realize that you're
the friend that's always made the first contact and you've made the first
contact for 15 years And if you just don't do that, they never contact you,
you probably don't have that friend.
It's just an illusion.
That's, that's a couple of things.
Ali: Trying to shift the dynamic of how the friendships always been established.
Joe: They might be really happy to hear from you when you text them or call
them, but they never reach out to you.
That's not a real friend.
Sam: I'm going to asterisk that, but yeah.
Ali: But I was going to say to your first point, like the growing apart, I think,
and I actually watched something very recently and he was talking about A real
friendship, is where you can, you do grow apart, but when you are together.
It's okay.
You actually enable the other person to grow and change in different ways.
And you know, they do that with you and you do grow and that is the nature of,
but they give you the space to do that and they still want to be around you.
And that's actually what a real friend, that's a lifelong friendship.
If you have the capacity to do that.
So like, you know, the example of when you have friends that you might not see
all the time, but you see them maybe once or twice a year, but when you
catch up, it's just like, it's amazing.
And this is what you're doing with your life.
And you might've grown and changed significantly in that time,
but you still have this common.
shared experience and of a lifelong friendship.
Yeah,
Joe: they're great friendships, but what I had done was hold on to friends
from when I was five years old, like my first friend in grade prep, and
held on and held on and held on.
Till when?
Last couple of years.
Oh, yeah.
And then it is that growing apart and people fall into addiction.
Mm hmm.
People start becoming self destructive, like
Sam: Oh, you're not just talking about yourself, you're talking
about friends that you've watched.
Yeah,
Joe: like that's I see that happen.
Or they just you start death knell for a friendship for me now is when
I start judging someone's behavior.
Ooh.
Like really judging going, Oh God, no, that's.
And look, a big part of it for me is sobriety.
It's because I never drink.
people's behavior that's shitty when they drink, I find it hard, I judge
them, and once I start judging them, the friendship starts to be over.
Ali: And you're not going to have that shared experience of like, going out
for a drink with them, because that's not a thing you even want to do.
No, and I
Joe: clung on to that for years after I stopped drinking and hung
around my cricket club and hung around pubs and drank cokes and.
Yeah, so let the letting go is happening really deeply now, where I'm just like,
you know, like I've, I've been invited to a Bucks, bucks party tomorrow night.
You know, it's starting at midday or something, and I was thinking of going
to watch the footy at 7:30 PM Perfect.
I wanna do that.
But in the past, I would've been like, well, I might've stopped drinking, but I
can still do all the things I used to do.
And that's not being kind to yourself to go to a pub full of blind, drunk people.
Mm.
When you're a sober guy,
Sam: right?
Is it worth going, like, early, and having the catch up, and then...
Before they get drunk, yeah.
And when things start getting juicy, you just, you just go, like, yeah.
Yeah.
Joe: Because I've done that.
Look, that's just one example, but,
Sam: No, no, it's a good example, though.
Joe: Yeah.
And, yeah...
So what I'm trying to say is mm-hmm.
I'm finally getting to a point where I'm not scared anymore.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
That's what I was getting of the social consequences mm-hmm.
Of having just a small group of friends.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Alanda button says if you've got, if you have three really good
friends across a lifetime mm-hmm.
You can count yourself really lucky.
Now.
I would have always thought that number was more like 30 or 40.
Oh, wow
Sam: Yeah, yeah Not as an ambition just like that that that's the base.
That's the benchmark number you had in
Joe: mind I just without thinking but when he said three across the lifetime,
I kind of thought Yeah, but I guess we are what I wanted to hear from you guys
is So what I'm really focused on is, in the last couple of years, really close,
long term friends, or even friends I've made since I got sober, that I was
really close with, and then realizing there's conflict, and it doesn't make
sense to continue the conflict, what makes sense is to just let them go,
and that Suddenly, what it creates is room in your life for new friends.
And if you never get rid of the dead wood, and that's again, not attacking
the actual person, just assessing the relationship as dead wood between you two.
It's not saying they're bad.
It's just saying this is.
Not serving me anymore.
If you never get rid of that, you never create the space for new friends.
But there's that scary bit in between, where you've let
go of a bunch of old friends.
And my experience just in the last month is a bunch of new friends coming in.
And you two are new friends in a way, because Sam I knew 20 years ago,
but really didn't see for 20 years.
And Ali I didn't know a year ago, and now we do this project together and it's
like you realise the frequency of how we chat to organise this show means that
you two become two of my closest friends, but in my head my closest friends Are
the people I've paid under 12 cricket with and I've never adjusted that, I've
never got the spreadsheet out and been like, oh, who are my closest friends?
It's like, well, my closest friends, yeah, Benny Anderson from grade four.
Now, I can still go to Benny Anderson's house this weekend and
have a roast dinner and it would be like we've never been apart.
That's valuable.
Right?
That friendship is rock solid.
Golden.
But actually he's not one of my closest friends.
So
Sam: interesting
Ali: it's it's years ago like with an ex we does he listen.
Sam: Sorry.
Yeah
Joe: used to listen I don't know if he still does but um,
Sam: shout out Benny.
Thank you for being Joe's solid Yeah,
Joe: Benny the builders laborer was a big fan
Ali: I was gonna say like it years ago the ex and I we moved a lot of a house
a lot of times and you know getting somebody to help you move house is a
You know, getting volunteers to do that.
Sam: Joe hit me up to help you the other day, and I
Ali: said yes.
And it's, and that's the thing, knowing who you can count on when
you get stuck, who's, someone who's actually going to genuinely be
like, oh, we'll come and help you.
That group becomes smaller and smaller, and like, and that, the joke
was we realised who, in those years, who our close friends really were.
The people who were going to drop stuff and come and help us because
a truck is whatever, you know.
And knowing you have those sorts of levels of support and friendship is, yeah, yeah.
Sam: So do you find if you got to a point in your life where you're like,
I've got enough money just to pay, like, I'm not claiming, I don't even feel this
way now, but let's say I was comfortable enough with just going and paying
removalists as a single person even, does that mean I'm less likely to have?
Uh, that, that I'm less likely toll have that habit of calling on.
Joe: I think actually over about 35.
You
Ali: should never, yeah, you shouldn't be hitting it.
I mean, we were quite young, man should just find the money, right?
We were in our twenties,
, Joe: but I was panicking a bit last week and I was like, fuck, I can borrow a
truck and I'll, and I asked four Yeah.
Friends, how many?
And I, you know, and one of 'em wasn't my oldest friend, Benny
Anderson, 'cause he's just got brand new baby and it's like, last thing.
Sam: Leave, leave him alone.
No, no, leave him alone.
So it's like, mind you, he might love an excuse to be honest.
Joe: But, in the end, the four people I asked all said yes, so
I know they're my true friends.
And then someone else mentioned, just get on Facebook Marketplace
and find someone to do it for cheap.
And I realised I was better off, even if I had to borrow some money
to do that, to pay someone to do it, which is what I'm going to do.
But, I did the friendship test.
And actually, who my four go tos were, unexpected.
One of them was Sam, one of them's a friend from high school
who's come back into my life.
It wasn't who it would have been...
Five years ago.
I
Ali: think, yeah, that.
Or maybe even two years ago.
I think you have over a lifetime, you have your circle, so you're always
going to have your, the people that you go to, but that circle changes.
And I think people will move in and out over it over a lifetime.
So like when you're young, you might have, yeah, they're your mate in school,
but then you might have a few, you know, months, say in your twenties where you'd
like going out all the time or then, yeah, they come back into your life when
you have kids cause they've asked you for some advice or you might run into
them and then all of a sudden it's all on again and people move in and out of that.
Because, yeah, life events happen.
Things will take them out of that circle for various reasons, whether
it's, yeah, family commitments, jobs.
They start a relationship.
Yeah, they start a relationship, which is probably the biggest one.
Um, yeah, like, those sorts of things will, yeah.
But I think a real, like a true friend will move in and out of that really
comfortably, like, with no time, with no matter how much time has passed.
Whereas, Yeah, like then there'll be people for whatever reason, once
they're out of that circle, they're never really going to be quite in again.
And that's the ones you've got to learn to let go of.
Oh
Sam: yeah, that's true.
Once you're out, you're out.
Like there's a, there is, there are, because there's, when you were
talking earlier about, I think what you were trying to say earlier was
letting go temporarily sometimes.
Yeah.
Um, and that understanding that there's a, that that's a good thing to do and that.
So, even if, whether you may or may not hang out again in the future, and I was
thinking of one person in particular where we have, we've very much had seasons
and not summer things, not a particular autumn, uh, get together or anything like
that, but just like a few years will go by, we'll run into each other and then
we'll start up something and then that'll, that'll go strong for a year or two.
And then...
The same thing.
Again, like it's just, and it's been very productive.
Joe: But in terms of running into each other, is the, is what happens now the
illusion that you've stayed in contact because of something like social media?
You haven't seen them for three years, but you're like, yeah, I
don't know what they're doing.
And I've seen them.
It's like, no, you haven't.
Ali: One of my close, I would say who's in my circle, who my closest friends,
but it doesn't live that far away.
And people aren't posting either.
Yeah.
Like, yeah, we just, we, it's just a meme exchange.
It's been a meme exchange for years and years and years.
And, and also like life advice and we talk and stuff.
And so we talk most days, but it's very hard to actually pin her down to catch
up because of her life circumstance.
And I like.
Yeah, just our availability, but it does give the illusion, I
think, that there is a closeness.
that potentially isn't there in the way that it is with other people.
Yeah, It's still
Sam: serving a purpose, though, I guess.
And perhaps because there's not that expectation you're going to be
catching up in person anytime soon.
It actually maybe preserves kind of text channel to be a particular thing in a way,
because you don't have to clutter it with.
Try to make plans.
You can, it's just a particular go to for a particular purpose.
Joe: Have either of you had like a painful friendship breakup?
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
That you can remember or talk about even in anonymized terms?
Ali: Yeah, I have two in over my life that have two people who've come into my life
who I thought were You know, like this, the kids would say, right, or die, or like
a really, like a friend who would, who was going to be there for the long haul.
And I mean, it was for a very long time and then for
various reasons have moved out.
And so the first one, when I was really young and.
We'd met at a party and we had like mutual friends and it was one of those
nights where you're on ecstasy and you're up all night and you're just chatting
till 7 in the morning just talking shit.
And from that night on it was just, we were best buds.
We, like I would go to his house, we were so awkward and shy around
the opposite sex and so we would go back to his place after the pub, like
everyone would be at the pub, we'd all go out but then he and I would
always peel off, go back to his place.
Incel buds.
Yeah, before
Sam: the term was scary, because the very first public person to
call themselves incel was a woman.
And you would have probably identified somewhat with her, and I would
have too, at the time, at times.
And she was just saying, I'm just, I'm just, I'm a dork
who's just unlucky in love.
And I feel like.
Yeah, yeah, that was kind of, does anyone else feel the same
way as me and wanna, yeah,
Ali: and we had a lot in common, we'd go back and watch DVDs, we used to have
our regular DVD concerts, we used to watch and drink and we'd fall asleep
together next to each other, like three or four nights a week, he would call
me at five in the morning and I would answer, this went on for years and years
and years, he was my really, really good friend and I, Loved him so much.
And he loved me.
Was he up all night when he called you at five?
Not always.
No, like, yes, but he was just my person.
That we were each other's person for like, in a lot of ways,
I think we were playing out
Joe: a surrogate.
Did you weren't rooting each other?
Ali: Yeah, because there wasn't really that physical
attraction, certainly not from me.
And he said that to me, however.
It might have even been true when he said it.
Yeah, exactly.
What had happened, and then it wasn't true later, and then it wasn't true later,
and we, I met somebody, and then all of a sudden I was in a relationship, and we
were doing this, and I had mentioned to this, my new partner at the time, that
look, I have this friend, and he stays, and like, this is our, you know, and he
was a bit like, ooh, this sounds like, You know, you share a bed and nothing happens.
I'm like, literally nothing's happened in years.
It's cool.
Like it's like, it's like a Michael Jackson thing.
And then, so he came and did the regular thing.
We, you know, and we went to bed and he was staying the night at my place.
And then all of a sudden he's, he's gone to make a move.
And I was like, what the f and I'm like, now of all time, I was, part
of me was just like heartbroken.
And I was like, of all.
Like, I've just finally, you've been through so much
with me, and seen how much...
Let me ask you this.
Joe: Have you ever met men?
Ali: Yeah, yeah.
What do you think, Ali?
I just, I just, but like, I never got...
Joe: Men are biding their fucking time.
That is 90% of male female
Sam: friendships.
For years, for years.
Joe's taking Harry's side in When Harry Met Sally.
Joe: They're biding their time.
Whenever there's been ambiguity in, in my friendships with women, none of
those women are friends with me now.
So,
Ali: it's interesting that...
So, cause afterwards, like we had this huge cry.
Both of us were crying.
Like he was like, it was really, it was really full on and he was crying.
He was like, and he goes, I feel like I'm losing.
I said, why did you do it now?
And he said, I feel like I'm losing my best friend as in two.
And I think that's why
Joe: he could give you what the other guy was going to give you.
He gets to keep his Ali.
Ali: Yes.
And that's, and that's what it was.
And it was just never the same after that.
There's all
Sam: kinds of complexity here.
Like I just want to.
Speak up in favor of this guy for a second, because my initial
judgment has shifted, I think.
And I think he was doing a bit of an Indiana Jones, grab the hat from under
the door as it's like rolling down.
And, you know, he's like, it's now or never.
But, so there's a good chance that there actually was, in his
mind, the long term goal of...
Joe: I would go back to say that first night when I stayed
up till 7am on ecstasy talking.
He wanted to kiss Ali back then, for sure.
I don't
Ali: know, I mean, I never got that impression though, in the
whole time we were together
Sam: though.
Yeah, but I was that guy, to some extent.
Yeah, yeah, you
Joe: know what, I'm going to help you out here.
I'm a bit like you, I went in and out, like one minute I'd
have some incredibly attractive girlfriend and I'd be riding high.
Yeah.
Then I'd go back to like borderline incel, had no idea how to approach the opposite
sex and the confidence never really built.
Sam: No, and I never understood why I succeeded or failed.
Yeah.
And like one of my best female friends turned to me one point.
She said, your girlfriend is the most beautiful girl on all of Brunswick Street.
And I'm like, are you serious?
I don't remember that one.
Yeah, you probably do.
Shout out to Carly.
And she's still the belle of the ball.
But you know, like it's, it's a funny thing because I didn't realise
until later because Claire was in the friend zone with me looking back.
I didn't really pick up on it at the time.
Now I won't say in a big way.
I Think she could take it or leave it kind of thing.
And we weren't hanging out all the time like you and old mate.
And I did have feelings for Claire sometimes, but I knew that I was
not going to be a good boyfriend.
So I was just like, nah, yeah.
, spoken for that.
Fast forward 12 months.
And I'm like, who am I?
What is love?
Baby don't hurt me.
Like nothing.
Like what am I doing wrong?
And then, but then, you know, and then I hit a purple patch after
that where it was just ridiculous and just couldn't put a foot wrong.
And then other times just couldn't put a foot right.
And it was, there were friendships that.
You know, sustained me emotionally through that period, but yeah, I've
got to say some of them were in that weird area of one or the other,
or maybe even both of us kind of contemplating and then not doing anything.
And to me, that's like a very early to mid twenties type of vibe.
Ali: Yeah, in that time, like, you know, when you're hanging out in
big social groups and you're going, you usually have your regular pub
nights or your regular nights out.
And like, I'd hooked up with his mates, like, you know, cause you
know, you go like, cause early twenties that's, and he'd never
had batted an eyelid about that.
He'd never, he was fine with that.
I think, I do think genuinely part of it was like, he felt like.
He was losing his best friend and I don't think it's
Sam: the the long term goal was there, but I think it came and went I think there
were times he was into you physically and then times he wasn't and was just like no
I just like having this person and then when he senses it's it's gonna be gone
forever He's like, well, I've got a step
Ali: up because I think we will somehow sort of playing out almost
like this weird proxy relationship We were in a relationship without sex.
That's what it was That's right.
He was a person I could lean on and vice versa.
And what's he going to do without
Sam: that intimacy?
Like men need that as much as women.
Ali: And like, not long after he met someone and then was
married within 12 months.
And like, yeah, like it was, and I just, yeah, hardly ever
Joe: heard from him.
And what was the second one Ali?
And then Sam's going to have to give us one.
Yeah.
So
Ali: the second one was, it started off as a fling.
We just had like a little fling, but then He was just like, I
don't think I'm interested.
I was like, cool, whatever.
But then we just started chatting, right?
Like just over the, you know, and then that chatting then
became, yeah, like, fling first.
Fling first.
Yeah, like it was only hooked up a couple of times.
Joe: So both of your friendship, both of your friend breakups involved sex.
Ali: Well, yeah.
Because like then what happened is, yeah, we then, yeah, it started
to turn into a friendship and then a very deep friendship and a very
supportive and loving friendship.
We had a lot of shared experiences around mental health and bipolar.
So
Sam: this goes against the one and done picture of men
you were painting earlier, Jo.
Yeah, so...
Well, no, you weren't quite going for that.
But I think this is a good illustration of the idea that a man
could, you know, sleep with you a couple of times and then be like...
There's actually something more important here.
Yeah,
Ali: yeah, and there really was for years and he was very supportive and very caring
but he also had a lot of, um, his own mental health issues and things were, I
was in quite a vulnerable position at the time and I realized actually then going
into therapy and explaining this dynamic that I had to my therapist that it was
actually quite unhealthy for me and that this man was actually quite manipulative.
It was quite manipulative and he'd said some really appalling things and I
decided to that actually no this isn't.
This isn't actually healthy or good for me, and I made a really conscious decision
of letting that person go out of my life.
Um, which is the only, one and only time I've ever done that in my life
and actually said, No, I just don't think I can be your friend anymore.
because yeah, he'd said some incredibly hurtful things that normally I would
have just copped, I think, thinking like, oh, you know, people make mistakes
or whatever it was, but actually what he'd said and done was so not okay.
and...
Yeah, so simultaneously it was heartbreaking because like there was
a like because we'd again been friends for years And I thought you know what
we had was really a special friendship And and it wasn't I did lean on him
heavily and vice versa and we did lots of kind Loving things for each
other and I don't think that's right.
I think that's yeah It was it was really it was a genuine loving huge part of my
life and but then yeah, it was absolutely Like it just turned quite Toxic.
And I think whether I don't want to, like, I don't want to say his mental health was
the, the, the cause of that, but it was, I can't say that it wasn't a contributing
factor, but there was, I mean, yeah, there was behavioral things in there as well.
Maybe, maybe he didn't know how to
Sam: end it or something that maybe he needed to move on to.
I think he did.
Yeah.
Ali: We, we, again, it was, there was, even though we'd both been in
relationships and stuff over the years, we also leaned on each other
in a semi sort of proxy relationship kind of way, and that the things we
weren't getting necessarily from the relationships We got from each other.
There was definitely an intellectual and an emotional
connection between the two of us.
I mean, it's great with, I mean, Joe and I would, you know, you've got a
bipolar friend, you're talking a million miles an hour, you're drawing on heaps
of bits of it, like someone who could keep up and those people are rare when
they come in and out of your life.
It
Joe: sounds like I'm fulfilling that role that you've always had, which is that one
male friend that you don't sleep with.
I've always had close male friendships my case, also bipolar
and also says horrible things to you
Ali: sometimes, so it's like...
Yeah, I just need a bully in my, a bipolar bully in my life,
it's very, no, not all of them.
It's
Joe: like some There, that I'm in the role,
Sam: yeah, I started to think that while you were saying, yeah, and I
think it's, clearly it's a sign of things having changed in your life,
Ali, that, that You know, you can, you can have Joe in this position
of importance, but it's, you know, I
Ali: think it's balanced.
It's balanced and it's in a healthy way.
And I think after, particularly with therapy, like if Joe does say
something a bit off, which is, you know, not often, but like, you know,
he does say, I just tell you now, like, whereas I would never have said.
That was hurtful or I didn't like that or, you know, pull your head in, but I mean,
you're actually not like that at all.
You're actually genuine.
Sam: And Joe's never trying to hurt anyone, unless he means to.
Ali: Yours is just generally, it's just bluntness that some people, and I
appreciate the bluntness and I think a lot of people find that really polarizing.
Joe: Sometimes you just need to lift your fucking game, Ali.
Sam: Sometimes you need a coach who talks to you firmly.
Ali: I do.
I really do.
I.
I need that in relationships, in all my relationships.
I do.
I actually.
It's an ASD thing.
I like the directness.
Sam: And you don't want it to come from a partner.
No!
Romantic partner, that sucks.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
It's really good to have a friend that's just like, come on, bro.
What about
Joe: you, Sam?
Do you have a particular friend, breakup?
Well, I just want to, yeah,
Sam: well, the one, the person I mentioned earlier, like that's come in and out,
like the first time that that happened.
That we, because we've, thinking back, I think we were quite, or not
quite in the, not the romantic zone, but like that intimacy and that
dependence in our early 20s, like we really needed each other at times.
You know, like, Joe, you can remember, and maybe we still experience it now
as older men, you, that sometimes when two, two men are close, there's
like an asexual romanticism that we've all experienced, I think.
Ali: I've, I've heard, I've heard that men say, like a lot of men experience
romance through other men and not actually through their romantic partners.
That's what the real, the real loves of their lives are the men.
They've often
Joe: been there.
The great text on that is.
He's on the road.
Yeah.
Cause he revered
Sam: Dean.
Yeah.
And
Joe: we've all had that, I think.
I mean, when I look back on my twenties, it was getting together on a Sunday
at a certain friend's house with a couple of other particular friends and
reviewing the night before, who'd picked up, who got too drunk and threw up,
who took some acid, blah, blah, blah.
But then you'd be drinking again on the Sunday or smoking weed or whatever.
You'd have the music going and you'd be reviewing the Saturday night.
Now, it's taken a lot of grieving to let go of so much of that, there's no
Saturday night, there's no drug taking, there's no booze, there's no three friends
that I meet up with on a Sunday, all of that is gone, and what I, I guess what
I want to talk about a bit today is, it's actually quite painful I agree.
But, finally, I'm finding a lot of acceptance around it.
Yes.
And creating some new friendships.
Same.
Whereas I think I spent 10 years hanging on to the idea that one day,
the Sunday afternoon, at that friend's house would come back, and it would
be telling war stories from the night before, and the glory days, and blah
blah blah, and we can't, isn't it in Sopranos, like, Um, there's no
sadder story than remember when.
Oh, a hundred percent.
Sam: Yeah.
And you know, I've been getting those.
Yeah.
It often takes me a while.
Like you'll hit that emotional base note that you want me to get on.
It takes me a while to warm up and find it.
I sometimes get the Peter Allen moment, you know, someday we'll
all be together once more.
And you know, when that pops into your head, there's a certain sentimental
romanticism there that is like false.
And it's illusory.
Yeah, they're gone.
Ali: It's, yeah.
I certainly had that, yeah, with the girl, my girlfriends and stuff.
You know, it was particularly going to an all girls school, that dynamic of, yeah,
you're sharing what's happened, who's into who, like, you know, that breakdown,
that regular catch up of like, oh, I'm just swinging by, we're going to have a
wine, we're going to chat, blah, blah.
Yeah.
You have to let go of.
That experience and now it's sort of and moving into a different stage of
I'll come over for a cup of tea or whatever You know, like, you know,
Joe: whatever.
I tried
to
Sam: keep those going.
Yeah, the one on one is more productive anyway than like having the full
bench Yeah, you know, like it's great to have the other thing that
Joe: I've had about, sorry, you haven't explained the rest of your
story about your man romance and I'll let you finish that thread, but The
other thing I've tried since I got sober, which failed, is going to a
man's house and having a coffee Yeah, and talking about life is a bad idea.
Mm hmm.
Oh, yes.
Yes.
No, whereas yeah, because most of blokey blokes Yeah, whereas if I can go with
them and watch the footy Yeah, and then we'll be discussing like life and
the world while the footy's happening.
That works, or with an activity like playing cricket together,
or a round of golf like I did that yesterday with a new friend.
That works, but because I'm fucking intense, I don't feel
it because it's just how I am.
They go through this intense hour where I'm like...
Yeah, I'm finding it really hard to, uh, understand my relationships with women and
like, they don't want to talk like that.
But generally, they'll have those conversations late at night or like...
No, no,
Sam: there has to be a
Joe: holding space.
Yeah.
So I've just had to pull back and realize you can't impose yourself.
And in those conversations that would happen over seven hours in a pub MDMA.
It's just gonna be different.
It's probably not gonna be as good, I have to admit, but like, there's still
the possibility of connection, there really is, and maybe it's more honest
than when you're off your fucking head, but, those experiments of just inviting
myself around to people's places that I liked, to have a coffee, It just left me
with that feeling of like, Oh, that was, I think that was awkward for that person.
I don't want to do that to them
Ali: again.
I'm not, I mean, I simultaneously long for being able to have a circle of friends
or people that can just pop in just for the coffee in a really spontaneous
way, which I obviously do not have.
Like, I mean, with people, with kids, jobs, nobody has that sort of time.
And even if I did, yeah, I would feel awkward as fuck.
Like, you know, just like, like they'd probably think if I was.
I'm going to randomly call up a friend and be like, Oh, by the way, I'm
just going to stop in for a coffee.
They're like, she's going to tell me something serious or something's
out, like something's actually out.
Yeah.
Like it's going to, cause it's such an uncommon experience now, whereas I suppose
it's totally different in your 20s.
Joe: Anyway, back to your mandala dance, I want to get
Sam: to the end of that story.
No, Ali, that's a very good point.
And I think Joe, I've done this to people too.
The thing you were just describing, I think I had the sort of parallel
thought to you, which is I can't.
Go out to the, to the pub and get warmed up and then have the DNM.
Like I just, we've got to cut to the good bit of the party.
Remember that?
Yeah, cut straight to the part when we're dancing.
Yeah, but we talked about that very early on like episode three maybe
and that I think so trying to trying to create that space that without
the drinking and the drugs, right?
Because and that that's a So, I have a lot of ambition I've got as well, right?
And in fact, it's something I've succeeded in doing, but I think I've
kind of sprung that on people where it's like, suddenly it's a DNM, and I
never plan on it necessarily that way.
But I've had the same realization that even with some of my
arty friends, that they're not necessarily ready to go to that spot.
Like, they don't have to be super, you know, super sporty blokes even to feel...
A little bit.
Joe: But that's like, but that's why we're doing a podcast, Sam, because I hadn't
seen you in years and then you get in the car and it's like, by the time we drove
an hour, we'd done climate change, Putin, breakups, um, you know, gender relations,
uh, what it's like being a dad, blah, blah, blah, and then that conversation
With you, just never, it started in 2001 and it just basically never stops and it's
fine, but you don't have a lot of, I've got plenty of time, I could come around
here every day and sit out in your shed at the moment, I'm pretty underemployed
in the film industry and we could have intense chats, but, and I wouldn't find
it tiring, I never really find it tiring with you because you kind of energise
me, which I think is the connection part, but I can't go and, uh, force my way.
Energy onto someone else.
Yeah.
You know, like, well, yes.
And maybe if they're not neurodivergent, like maybe that's the neurodivergence,
like some of these people I'm thinking of are very well adjusted, calm people too.
Right.
And having this large, you know, whereas
Sam: I'm bipolar adjacent and you can't, yeah.
You can do that sort of thing with me, but not with them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's it.
And the, the steady types.
They're steady either because they've got certain dispositions
and they just stay that way.
Or they work very hard on keeping it that way.
Joe: Yeah, they do.
I think, and they filter things
Ali: really well.
Cause, yeah, I think have like, you find like, you know, you neurodivergent
friends make neurodivergent friends.
Like if you're bipolar, you're going to make a friend with, cause you
have that shared experience, but it's also very much the practicalities
of somebody with bipolar.
There's a good chance that person will be up late.
So, that's the person who's up late who you're talking to because
they're not sleeping, right?
And that was certainly my experience of, you know, or like, yeah, the
person who's a bit chaotic and not necessarily in work, you can contact
during the day, that's, so it's that availability plus shared experience.
But I have
Joe: the experience, I go on, I go on first dates and by the end of an hour,
women have told me like their darkest secrets and they've told me in detail
about their marriage breakup and whatever.
Mm.
And, and then they say, I, I dig that stuff.
Mm.
Wow.
You're really great to talk to.
I don't wanna see you again, because there's some vulnerability
that's been opened up.
Yeah.
And maybe they just wanted to have a roll around in the hay.
Yeah.
But I can't turn off this thing where I'm like curious, like, yeah.
Tell me about your marriage breakup.
Sam: No, no.
Your, your Andrew bloody Denton.
Yeah.
Just enough roping these women every time.
Yeah.
. And I do, I do the same thing to, to, to people whether I, whether it's.
You know, whether I just think they're interesting or whether it's a friend or
it's a romantic prospect, I'm the same.
I just have this instinct.
I just want to open that can.
Ali: I'm the same.
It's just...
It's
Sam: pleasurable, right?
Ali: It is.
I continually get...
Yeah.
Similarly, like to you, Joe, on the dating apps or the experience has
been, I feel like I can talk to you.
Like, like I get, I've had that.
It could be a trauma thing could be, I don't know what, I mean,
whatever, whatever it's rooted in, I think there is an openness about me.
And I think as my psychologist said, there's, I, I'm not judgmental
to a, to a fault actually.
And so holding that space for somebody to just.
Be able to speak without judgment has, you know, enables me to have really deep
and lovely conversations and really rich experiences because people do feel that
safe place around me, that they can have those, because yeah, I'm similarly like
have that, I'm interested and curious.
Joe: I don't want to see you again.
Ali: No, I think, I think, no, it generally then turns into like, I
haven't felt this, I haven't, I don't normally feel like this around somebody.
I want to then be with you and then it's, it's all on, as we've had that discussion.
Partly, that
Joe: could be a, that could be a male female thing, or partly,
you know, maybe men get opened up and feel vulnerable and tell you
their darkest secrets and think...
I've never felt like this.
Where women open up and tell you the dark secrets and they're
like, Now I'm vulnerable, this person has something over me.
And is he a little bit dangerous?
Ali: Yeah, like, yeah, do I feel safe?
Yeah.
You know what?
I am a little bit dangerous.
Whereas I think perhaps I'm giving them a safe, like I'm not coming across as any
sort, like I'm not going to weaponise it.
No, you're very, there's no judgement there, so there's no,
so it's very safe for them to be
Sam: like that.
Yeah, even if they weren't planning on talking about it.
But somehow when, when the unplanned divulgence occurs with
Joe, there's a feeling of like, oh.
It was good to go there, but I didn't want to go there, and I don't know
if I'll be able to have control over the agenda the next time we meet.
Yeah, or like, yeah, like,
Ali: what, what do I, yeah, do I feel safe?
What is he going to do with this information?
That's, that's, I think, and, and women having that distrust
of men, I think, is just general.
I don't, I'm saying that I don't have that feeling, Joe, but like,
which is why we're still friends.
But I think, whereas, yeah, like, I think it's, it comes back to feeling safe with
the information that you're sharing.
Sam: Well, that, that's exactly right.
And I think that, that.
Those people, because as you've always said Joe, you tend to only, you tend
to only want to consider relationships with fairly serious women who are quite
substantial intellectually or they've got a decent career or whatever and
they're pretty on their square for the most part and you know, that kind
of area of establishing that empathy and understanding like other people's
failures and flaws, well, but it's a portal through which, you know,
traffic can flow and that So, that gate being opened, does anyone remember the
article about the problem with empathy?
No.
Sort of like one of those long form pieces.
Yeah, vaguely.
I did the rounds a few years ago, but it's based on some reasonably solid
scholarship as far as I can make out, but the basic thesis of it is, people that are
empathic, Whether through their nature or through their, they've developed, they've
developed a lot of experience and they're able to kind of understand a range of
circumstances people have been through.
So, the empathy is a double edged sword, though.
Because the ability to understand someone's vulnerabilities
and to feel their feelings...
Actually gives you the ability to bully and manipulate them as
well as support them and, and...
Joe: I'm just, my problem is, the reality is I can't adjust my settings.
Sam: No, me neither.
Joe: The one success story this, in the last year has
been getting Ali as a friend.
Yeah.
And maybe me and Ali have a chance to stay friends because we never kissed.
Yeah.
There's never been anything physical.
Yeah.
There's no ambiguity.
Hmm.
It's just like...
I had the same reaction that all the other men had, which is, wow, Ali is
so great to talk to, but I took it in a different direction, and it wasn't,
actually when we met, when it was going to be a date, The energy was so unstable
between us that I was like, this is like, I could just picture myself driving off
a cliff, down one of the waterfalls.
No, it
Ali: was, it was the same, like, I just, I, there was something about like,
this is going to end so badly, I'm not good, but you were both mutually like,
no, we're just not going to go there.
Cause this is, there's something.
That would be yeah,
Sam: trouble.
I love you guys.
Thank God you worked it all out.
Ali: I was gonna say it's a very measured response because I'd say if we had met
maybe like in our late teens early 20s when we didn't have the knowledge of
what that could then look like probably would have just been like We'd be, steal
each other's horror stories, sharing, like, you know, we could have very much
Joe: been that.
What's that movie set on the psych ward?
One Flew Over a Cuckoo's Nest.
No, no, it's the couple that gets together.
Ali: Oh, um, with Katie Holmes.
Joe: Um, yeah.
No, no, no, I've got it.
What's it called?
Anyway.
I
Ali: know exactly what you're talking about.
Katie Holmes.
Yeah,
Joe: it's not a very good movie, but it's about two bipolar people
getting together on the psych ward.
We'll put the name of it.
No, we won't.
Sam: The J Law movie, which is basically the same movie, two, two bipolar people
and Jennifer Lawrence is one of them.
That's the one.
Oh,
Ali: That's it.
That's a great movie.
That's
Sam: the better one.
Yeah.
So, so like I was just going to say, it seems like one of
the things really important.
In the conversation so far has been like the match or mismatch between
what people need at their particular point in life, what they're comfortable
with, whether they can, whether they can do the sit across the table
and have the D and M at 12 PM, you know, midday, not late at night.
But Sam, what happened with your bromance?
Well, that's what I was getting back to because it was, because it was, yeah,
because it was that situation that, where there was the ability to talk
frankly, and there was, and it was quite, In fact, I think we were fairly rough
with each other as well, like verbally and, you know, dished it out a lot and,
which was really good because we both needed it, like the stick was needed.
Like,
Ali: I think that's similarly Joe and I are like that with each
other, like we can be brutal.
Yeah.
And you need, but we both need it.
I
Sam: think.
Got it.
Got to have it.
And like, he's always one of the few people and he's still in my
life and we like the opportunity to like, have that like high frequency.
High bandwidth type relationship like in the early 20s or even in the late 20s and
then another go in the 30s That it's not really in place now for either of us But
I I just know that I could probably still get that same bluntness from him and I
would value that But the first time we we never had a we can't be friends anymore.
It wasn't like that.
It was a It was a drifting apart and more of a ghosting maybe on one side
and then that kind of hurt Because like, we weren't living, we weren't
sharing a house anymore, and maybe we both had girlfriends, can't remember.
But like, that always, that always felt like a thing that
would get in the way as well.
Like, I remember he said to me one day, You have this habit of putting
women off me and I'm like, man, I'm not trying to do it on purpose.
Like I promise.
Ali: So it's, perhaps it was like a romance between you and him over the
years and that when women moved into that space, there was no space, like you
couldn't share that romance and romance.
Exactly.
Sam: And so it was like an emotional intimacy that neither
of us could either do at the same time as having a girlfriend.
Or, it just was a question of not having the time and then you got the jobs.
One of the friends I've had to let go of got ghosted and that hurt,
but now when it happens, I'm like, no, that's just how he rolls.
Yeah.
And I'm fine with it.
Yeah.
Joe: Yeah.
One of the ones that I had to let go of was, yeah, similar, we'd say rough
things to each other, but, when it just started to have a cruel edge to it.
Yeah.
Yes.
I remember one thing he said to me was, oh, you always have to
feel like you're special at work.
And I was like, yeah, that's insightful.
Like I'm used to these criticisms and then it just stayed with me and I'm like, oh,
that kind of fucking pisses me off and hurts me and, and then things started to
go a bit that way where what was once,
Sam: um, insightful,
Joe: penetrating, rough love was much, became more bitter.
Yeah.
Ali: And it's, it's hurtful and there's a mean, there's a meanness behind it.
There's a meanness
Sam: to stick the knife.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I remember
Joe: one time that same person said to me, oh, you need to be on
six figures to live in Melbourne.
And I thought, yeah, that's easy to say when you're on six figures.
But from where I'm standing with my career, like, like there was
a level of privilege to that and that's what I'm saying.
And then I judged him and then I thought,
Sam: fuck this guy.
Like,
Joe: like, alright, you're in a position, in your forties to be
making whatever you're making over a hundred thousand dollars a year.
But you can't turn around and say, everyone else needs to do that.
Like, what about some understanding of how hard that is for a lot of people?
But again, what he said isn't a hanging offence, and it's maybe
kinda true, you need six figures to have a good life in Melbourne.
But, my reaction was like, jeez, I'm really pissed off
about this, and it's like...
That's when I realized I've got to let this person go.
Sam: So it seems like the way this stuff is landing is, yeah,
Ali: it's the
Joe: same stuff that he would have always said, but it just hit me differently.
Ali: Because the thing is when you grow and change, and that's fine if we
acknowledge and accept that that's okay.
What's happened is that it sounds like there's a, you've grown and
your values have changed because fundamentally, if he's saying that.
Yeah, you have to have six feet.
It doesn't sit right with you and that sort of feels like an attack
on your values and similarly I think
Joe: what happened a little bit too is that I slipped down the privilege
Change a little bit, whereas when we were in our 20s, we were equally
privileged, educated, straight white guys.
But, like, a lot of my friends have now gone on a curve in their 40s where they
are up over a hundred grand a year and they're doing quite well and they're
managers and I'm not on that curve.
So I'm falling down the scale of privilege, class wise.
And so, I think it's important when you're doing that to maybe let go of some people.
You can't relate to them anymore.
Ali: I think there's one other friendship I've had, and it was like you, like a,
from childhood, like knew each other as little kids, we were mates throughout
high school, uni, like for years and years and years, and I would have
always considered a really close friend.
Given that I then had a baby quite young.
And my experience of, you know, being at home and not necessarily working in great
Sam: jobs.
And that's also a space where you're going to get judged
Ali: by a lot of people.
Yes.
And she's had a completely different trajectory.
Sam: It's all gone according to plan,
Ali: has it Ali?
No, no, as in like, she hasn't had kids and she's had this wildly
successful career, travels the world.
And there's like, it's not like genuine love and support for what she's been able
to achieve, incredibly talented woman.
But over the last few years, yeah, like there is a huge
wealth discrepancy and like.
And a huge lifestyle discrepancy.
And our ability to then come back together and connect the last few times has
been very much, has felt a bit forced.
And like, and I think perhaps we've just grown and changed too much in
our experiences are just so different that there's, even though we have that
common history and shared history, it's not the same as it is now.
And that's why that friendship has sort of, yeah, like there's been a
bit of like me reaching out and not hearing back and things like that.
And And feeling a bit hurt by that, but then also actually accepting,
okay, this, I'm just not a part of her circle in her life anymore, and
that's okay, and like, yeah, we've had a great 30 years, like, like, this
is a very long time, but also, maybe it's, it's not for the next 30 years.
Joe: Sounds like one's let go of Ali.
I think we should wrap it up.
but yeah, look, the, the super positive spin I'll put on it is this.
I actually have a lot of acceptance at the moment for my
life being exactly the way it is.
So that's one thing.
So someone else that's a friend that's being more successful financially
doesn't bother me really at all.
but I can let go of that person if I'm judging them on what they're saying.
And the other thing I'll say that I didn't realise is, this sounds a bit
hippy, but when I let go of people...
I create space, and into that space, new things can come, come new friends,
whereas I always had a scarcity mentality of like, the moment I let
go of a friend, I'm an only child, so my friends have always been like my
family, like, I've always had that, and I've always been really good socially.
At making friends.
Yeah.
Um, but I've realized, oh, actually it's a bit about editing now.
Yes.
And getting down to just friends that are a positive, you know,
positive influence in your life.
And, you know, I'm a very needy person.
I'm a very needy texter.
Yeah.
Sometimes.
Yeah.
I'll go through my WhatsApp.
Yeah.
And there'll be people that I'm texting, say 20 different people.
Yeah.
And I'll literally delete every single thread.
Mm-hmm.
. And I'll just wait.
And see who comes back in to just to, because I've had to learn system
self knowledge that I need to give people the break because I can't
be telling people my every thought.
That's not being a good friend.
That's just being a pest.
And the only person I can actually do that with is Ali.
But even with Ali, it's fine.
If I send her a message, just look at it for four hours,
I accept, I can accept that.
But the one difference with Ali is I'm not going to feel judged and she's
not going to turn around and be like, mate, you're messaging me too much.
Everyone else, who's not bipolar, there's a hint of it being a burden,
or the possibility of it being a
Ali: burden.
Yeah, see, whereas I don't see it as a, if I don't have the capacity to get back
to you in that moment because I'm at work or whatever, or I'm doing something, I
know I'll get back to you when I can.
And like, I don't feel like, yeah, like just because you text me a lot or, I
mean, because I also text a lot too.
So, It's, yeah, I just feel like, yeah, I don't feel like
there's a neediness behind there.
It's just like, yeah.
But it's
Joe: a good exercise because I clear the decks and then I see who comes
back in and then it's a reaffirming of, all right, that person wants to be in
communication with me today and everyone else, I need to just give them a break.
Sam: I just want to say, I've never, I feel like I've never understood
the rules of texting and maybe I never will, but I feel like I'm
starting to get more of a grip on it recently, but, and I've also started
to impose rules around it for myself.
So that's good.
Yeah, so I feel I'm going to do this thing that I often do, which I don't
get vulnerable until you know, the door's about to roll down and I've
got to grab my hat from underneath.
Joe declares the session to be over.
And I just learned recently.
One of the origins of the castration anxiety idea in Freud was like the end
of the session and the patient would always feel that they were just about to
have the breakthrough, but they wouldn't feel that until the announcement was
coming that the time is running out.
And so there's something about that that I just wanted to just park it there.
I think you guys would appreciate that.
But when the podcast is about to end, I'm like, damn, I've got all these thoughts.
Now I have to say the thing that, so.
What you said earlier, two things I wanted to pick up on, you're not
moving on because you're better.
I think that's very important, I 100% agree with that, I've done that.
Yeah, there's too much ego in that.
There's too much ego, it's poisonous.
Joe: And that's the American style.
It's false.
American, you can jump on Instagram and they'll say, you gotta leave friends
behind, cause you're outgrowing them.
And it's like, fuck
you.
I
Sam: read, I read
Joe: that and I'm like, I don't know if I'm heading in the right direction.
I have no idea.
Sam: That has, that sentiment has resonated with me at times and then
other times it's struck me as very...
It's sociopathic almost.
Ali: The only time I think it's appropriate is like when that other
person has been so mean and hurtful and you don't deserve that treatment.
And that's different.
But whereas, but yeah, like just cutting the dead weight just for the
sake of it because you deserve better.
That's just bullshit.
Like you're not any better than them.
I've
Sam: got better yoga pants than these schmoes now.
I'm ready to move on.
It's like, I think that is how some people look at it.
They're friends as they're accessories
Ali: in their life.
Because they're a reflection of their success.
It's a very narcissistic sort
Sam: of view of it.
The whole of Sydney is like that.
Ali: We might have some Sydney viewers who take a dim view of it.
Sam: No, but I think Sydney has that reputation, certainly, and St Kilda
being our little Sydney in Melbourne.
There is a bit of that vibe sometimes.
Yeah, definitely
Joe: yoga pants.
Definitely if the yoga pants aren't up to scratch,
Sam: I'm moving on.
100%.
But do you know what one of my St Kilda type friends said to me?
Because he was born and bred there.
And he's a gay hairdresser.
It doesn't get much more St Kilda than that.
Um, although he has had the right wing turn recently.
But he put it to me like this one day, he said, like, But I was at like a gallery,
and I was like, trying to talk about the art, and then I just realised this person
was just like, judging me as like a...
As a Southsider and like I didn't know what I was talking about and like I
just suddenly just like oh intellectual snobbery that's a thing yeah and then
I was like yeah yeah yeah you for sure that happened to you but but
I was like but you gotta understand When I go Southside, I feel that same
thing coming back at me, but about appearance, and like, tan, and like,
the clothing I'm wearing, or whatever.
Joe: Don't ever go to Sydney, Sam.
You'll be traumatised.
Sam: Oh no, I've been a few times, and I, I enjoy feeling like a complete and utter
alien, and then I'm like, then I'm done.
Like, I'm ready to go.
But
Joe: you're about to get vulnerable, Sam.
You've been
Sam: cyphering.
Well, I'm getting there, because, because I've...
I don't think I've been keeping friends as accessories and like,
egotistically thinking of, I've outgrown you, but if I had to be
honest, I have felt that way at times.
The evil twin of that feeling is, if you're capable, put it this way, if
you're capable of looking at another person that you've had intimacy and
mutual support with and then gone, I'm better than you and I can move on.
The evil twin to that is.
Walking around imagining you're worse than people and they're
looking at you that way.
And so just for your own sake, for my own sake, any feelings of superiority
in this matter, get those out of there because what's really happening is that
maybe you've had a piece of progress in one area and you really do need to
not have that friendship there because it's clouding something you need to do.
Okay, that's fine.
Or maybe you and that buddy drink too much when you get together or whatever it is.
But that doesn't mean you've got anything else at all figured out.
And I think that's tripped me up a few times, Joe, so that
kind of resonated with me.
So that was the first thing.
And the other one is, as a kid that got sent to boarding school at six, I
didn't, uh, well, you know, you had to make your friends your family, right?
And you had to really, I had to really learn to make do with what was
around, you know, and who was around.
And, so, friends became important at a young age, right?
So it was a very big puzzle to me in my 20s and 30s, but like you, easy to
meet people, and easy to even take it to the next stage and the one after that.
But then, yeah, I would start hoarding friends at times, and then at other
times, like, doing nothing with them.
Any of them, like not reaching out, not taking the initiative, not asking
for things, not asking to hang out.
Like in theory, having a lot of people I could count as friends, but not
actually feeling like I could reach out to any of them for anything.
Ali: That's a very common sort of experience of depression, which
I've certainly experienced in that.
Yeah.
You objectively, you could say, yeah, you have all these friends,
but the fact you don't feel like you could, you don't want to.
Impose upon them in any way and you feel actually incredibly lonely and you're
like, I would never reach out to that.
I would never reach out, even though you probably could, but you just don't
feel like you can in that moment.
I
Joe: was comfortable to ask to move my house and I felt
awkward about all of them.
I felt privileged.
Uh, and maybe there was probably could extend that list
a bit, but it's a good test.
Yes, it is.
My friend Eric from Alabama says we find out who our
friends are when we move house.
Yeah, yeah.
You know.
Love that guy.
But what's interesting is I tried to try out some rules, because I like
rules, at the start of the show.
Yeah.
And one of them was just don't text or call people, they've got
your number, see what happens.
The only asterisk, and you put an asterisk on it, and the only, the exception
that proves that rule is you, because I would never have seen you again.
I don't think you were ever going to text or call me.
And that's not because you're a bad person or don't like me, it's just you.
Sam: Thought about doing it many times, with you in particular,
so you're on a list of, like it's not a long list of people that I
thought about contacting many times.
And didn't do it.
Ali: Yeah.
I've let friendships or potential friendships go because of that
sort of, oh, I really like hanging out with this person.
I really enjoy their company or I really want to reach out,
but for whatever reason, I just haven't been able to, to do that.
And so it's sort of fallen by the wayside.
I've certainly had that experience.
And I think it coincides with various times in my life where
I've had poor mental health.
And yeah, but it's, um, yeah, definitely can relate to that.
Yeah.
And then,
Sam: yeah, that's right.
And other, like, just this curious feeling of like, it's so hard to
put into words, Oh, I'm feeling bad.
I don't need to, you know, I don't want to bring anyone else down.
But then other times it's like, Oh, everything's good.
I don't need anybody.
So it's kind of like in fair weather or foul.
It's like the tendency to reach out is just not there.
See, I have the opposite.
Joe: I have to delete people's number because I will try three or four times
to catch up with them for a coffee if I really like them as a friend.
This is male friends.
And I've done it.
I mean, I've deleted a million girls numbers, but this time
it's like, I need to delete this person's number because I can't.
Leave them alone.
Like, I remember one of my friend's father died.
I reached out to him like, I know what that's like, mate.
Do you want to get a coffee?
Ghost, you know, no reply.
And then you reach out three months later about going to the footy, no reply.
And it's like, just stop.
Sam: So, you're offering different things.
Just stop.
Joe: But I lack...
Impulse control, especially when I'm lonely, so even with male friends, this
is a new level for me, now I'm deleting their numbers, and most of them could
probably, well, all of them have my number, so it's actually fine, and it
might be a bit awkward if they texted you out of the blue, you'd be like,
oh, who is this, because everyone knows you don't lose numbers anymore, so
they know you've deleted their number.
But
Sam: you can say, sorry, I delete numbers a lot.
If I'm pestering people, so you might be one of those people,
Joe: you can just be honest.
I would recommend, this is my last thing I'll say in this episode, I have
done a few times A phone contact audit.
Yeah.
And I've gone through every contact in my phone and deleted anyone that
I'm not going to contact again.
Oh God, I should
Ali: do that.
And
Joe: it's so, cathartic.
Sam: Throw that
Ali: black book over the Hinge Brothers and the Tinder Brothers
and the Bumble Brothers.
Oh yeah.
Sam: There's a good band name.
Yeah.
Joe: I mean, yeah, sure.
But like, yeah, those for sure.
But also just.
That person you worked with 15 years ago, just get rid of it because
it'll clear up a bit of bandwidth.
You'd be surprised how cathartic it is to be like, Oh, that
person's gone from my life.
Sam: Do you know what I like about a lot of what you just said?
I think there's an increasing alignment in the way you.
Think about friends and romantic relationships, the kind of highly
separate male female thinking that you've had over the years.
I think that's going away slowly, and I think you're realizing that
it's the same dynamics in both cases.
A lot of the same needs, a lot of the same dysfunctions.
You're de gendering all this, which is good.
Joe: Yeah.
A friend of mine has advised me to expand the category of dating out to connection.
That's right.
And that can be connection around addiction recovery, connection
around sport, connection around...
Whatever, it can be friends, family, and it includes, it's a category
that includes dating and sex.
Yeah.
Whereas I've always had a discrete category which is just dating and sex.
Mm.
And then, I don't, yeah, I haven't treated it as part of an extension
of the friendship side of my life.
Yeah.
That's right.
Um, ironically, I end up with friends off dating apps.
Yeah, same.
And there's no one left.
Who's a sexual partner, so I've got a couple of friends that I
made on dating apps, actually.
But also,
Sam: the connected realisation of some of the same problematic behaviours
playing out in the so called platonic space versus the romantic space,
and just g But that's neediness.
Joe: That's right.
And neediness is a sin,
Sam: you know?
Agreed.
And well, do you know what the other sin, though, is?
I've come to understand my understanding of, uh, what St.
Paul was getting at was that sin is not like gambling the family fortune
away, I mean it is that, but the core of it is The failure to love when you
could have and like I'm like, yes, I think that's really important and
so and come to realize Yeah, I was
Joe: reading Eckhart Tolle last night and he talks about sin as being
misunderstood as a term And it's actually about you could be translated from
the ancient Greek as missing a target.
Yes,
Sam: failing to be a target.
That's right
Joe: That's exactly right.
It's a different and my neediness is a sin Because, I'm annoying people who
don't want to hear from me, but what I'm wanting is right connection, what
I'm doing is a sin because it's missing
Sam: the target.
Looking for the thing in the wrong place, and me, looking for the
exact thing in the exact right place, and then not acting on it.
So like thinking about having a list of friends you could
Joe: think and thinking about particular person you and gone out for coffee and
probably tried to problem solve the whole thing and tell you get your shit
Sam: together and it would have been great.
Ali: Yeah.
And I think that's the thing.
You're so pleasantly surprised when those things do actually work out, but in
the moment it is actually very hard to.
Fathom that it would work out that way, that you feel like you're a
burden or you're bothering them or pestering them, or that you don't,
they, they wouldn't have the time or the availability when most people and a real
friend will actually drop everything and be there for you in a heartbeat.
Sam: A hundred percent.
And like, just re, re, like imagining not a good or a bad outcome, just imagining
like whatever happens, it'll be fine.
It'll be manageable.
Like it's a, and you know, whether or not you'd have problem solved all my
problems or not, it would have been, and that's why sometimes I've had to
count on people reaching out and just take that as the sign that it's time
to connect with another human being.
But it's a good thing also to put on your grown up hat and do it for yourself.
Joe: All right, let's leave it there, guys.
Thanks, Joe.
Thank you.
Thanks, Ali.
Thanks, Sam.
Cheers.