WEBVTT

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This file was generated by Descript 

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Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

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Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

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Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

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things.

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Sam: Hello.

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Welcome to the 10, 000 things.

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My name is Sam Ellis.

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I'm Joe Loh.

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Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

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Joe: Today on the show,
letting go of friends.

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Let's get into it.

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It's pretty simple,
pretty self explanatory.

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It is.

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Uh, I've done a bit of it
in the last year or two.

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It seems to be an accelerating process.

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Ali: Um, it does when you get
older, I think you become much more,

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mindful of the time that you do have.

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And so you're The people that
you do invest in, you want them

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to be meaningful connections.

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And so the acquaintances that you would
have given a lot of time to in your

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early twenties, you don't necessarily
invest nearly that much in those 10

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people tend to fall by the wayside.

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Joe: So true.

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My first rule of letting go of friends is
"don't tell yourself that you're letting

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go of them because you've outgrown them."

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There's too much ego in that.

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Yeah It's not obvious a lot of the
time why a friendship has drifted.

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That's such a good point.

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Second rule of letting go of friends is
Try not texting or calling someone who

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has your number and see what happens
Yeah And if you realize that you're

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the friend that's always made the
first contact and you've made the first

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contact for 15 years And if you just
don't do that, they never contact you,

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you probably don't have that friend.

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It's just an illusion.

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That's, that's a couple of things.

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Ali: Trying to shift the dynamic of how
the friendships always been established.

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Joe: They might be really happy to hear
from you when you text them or call

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them, but they never reach out to you.

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That's not a real friend.

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Sam: I'm going to asterisk that, but yeah.

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Ali: But I was going to say to your first
point, like the growing apart, I think,

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and I actually watched something very
recently and he was talking about A real

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friendship, is where you can, you do
grow apart, but when you are together.

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It's okay.

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You actually enable the other person
to grow and change in different ways.

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And you know, they do that with you and
you do grow and that is the nature of,

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but they give you the space to do that
and they still want to be around you.

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And that's actually what a real
friend, that's a lifelong friendship.

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If you have the capacity to do that.

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So like, you know, the example of when
you have friends that you might not see

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all the time, but you see them maybe
once or twice a year, but when you

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catch up, it's just like, it's amazing.

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And this is what you're
doing with your life.

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And you might've grown and changed
significantly in that time,

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but you still have this common.

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shared experience and of
a lifelong friendship.

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Yeah,

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Joe: they're great friendships, but
what I had done was hold on to friends

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from when I was five years old, like
my first friend in grade prep, and

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held on and held on and held on.

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Till when?

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Last couple of years.

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Oh, yeah.

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And then it is that growing apart
and people fall into addiction.

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Mm hmm.

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People start becoming
self destructive, like

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Sam: Oh, you're not just talking
about yourself, you're talking

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about friends that you've watched.

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Yeah,

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Joe: like that's I see that happen.

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Or they just you start death knell
for a friendship for me now is when

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I start judging someone's behavior.

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Ooh.

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Like really judging
going, Oh God, no, that's.

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And look, a big part of
it for me is sobriety.

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It's because I never drink.

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people's behavior that's shitty when
they drink, I find it hard, I judge

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them, and once I start judging them,
the friendship starts to be over.

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Ali: And you're not going to have that
shared experience of like, going out

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for a drink with them, because that's
not a thing you even want to do.

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No, and I

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Joe: clung on to that for years
after I stopped drinking and hung

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around my cricket club and hung
around pubs and drank cokes and.

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Yeah, so let the letting go is happening
really deeply now, where I'm just like,

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you know, like I've, I've been invited
to a Bucks, bucks party tomorrow night.

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You know, it's starting at midday or
something, and I was thinking of going

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to watch the footy at 7:30 PM Perfect.

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I wanna do that.

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But in the past, I would've been like,
well, I might've stopped drinking, but I

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can still do all the things I used to do.

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And that's not being kind to yourself to
go to a pub full of blind, drunk people.

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Mm.

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When you're a sober guy,

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Sam: right?

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Is it worth going, like, early, and
having the catch up, and then...

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Before they get drunk, yeah.

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And when things start getting juicy,
you just, you just go, like, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Joe: Because I've done that.

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Look, that's just one example, but,

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Sam: No, no, it's a good example, though.

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Joe: Yeah.

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And, yeah...

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So what I'm trying to say is mm-hmm.

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I'm finally getting to a point
where I'm not scared anymore.

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Yeah.

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Mm-hmm.

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That's what I was getting of
the social consequences mm-hmm.

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Of having just a small group of friends.

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Mm.

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Mm-hmm.

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Alanda button says if you've got,
if you have three really good

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friends across a lifetime mm-hmm.

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You can count yourself really lucky.

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Now.

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I would have always thought that
number was more like 30 or 40.

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Oh, wow

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Sam: Yeah, yeah Not as an ambition
just like that that that's the base.

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That's the benchmark number you had in

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Joe: mind I just without thinking but
when he said three across the lifetime,

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I kind of thought Yeah, but I guess we
are what I wanted to hear from you guys

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is So what I'm really focused on is, in
the last couple of years, really close,

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long term friends, or even friends
I've made since I got sober, that I was

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really close with, and then realizing
there's conflict, and it doesn't make

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sense to continue the conflict, what
makes sense is to just let them go,

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and that Suddenly, what it creates
is room in your life for new friends.

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And if you never get rid of the dead
wood, and that's again, not attacking

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the actual person, just assessing the
relationship as dead wood between you two.

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It's not saying they're bad.

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It's just saying this is.

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Not serving me anymore.

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If you never get rid of that, you
never create the space for new friends.

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But there's that scary bit
in between, where you've let

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go of a bunch of old friends.

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And my experience just in the last month
is a bunch of new friends coming in.

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And you two are new friends in a
way, because Sam I knew 20 years ago,

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but really didn't see for 20 years.

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And Ali I didn't know a year ago, and
now we do this project together and it's

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like you realise the frequency of how
we chat to organise this show means that

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you two become two of my closest friends,
but in my head my closest friends Are

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the people I've paid under 12 cricket
with and I've never adjusted that, I've

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never got the spreadsheet out and been
like, oh, who are my closest friends?

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It's like, well, my closest friends,
yeah, Benny Anderson from grade four.

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Now, I can still go to Benny
Anderson's house this weekend and

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have a roast dinner and it would
be like we've never been apart.

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That's valuable.

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Right?

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That friendship is rock solid.

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Golden.

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But actually he's not one
of my closest friends.

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So

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Sam: interesting

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Ali: it's it's years ago like
with an ex we does he listen.

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Sam: Sorry.

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Yeah

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Joe: used to listen I don't
know if he still does but um,

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Sam: shout out Benny.

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Thank you for being Joe's solid Yeah,

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Joe: Benny the builders
laborer was a big fan

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Ali: I was gonna say like it years ago
the ex and I we moved a lot of a house

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a lot of times and you know getting
somebody to help you move house is a

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You know, getting volunteers to do that.

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Sam: Joe hit me up to help
you the other day, and I

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Ali: said yes.

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And it's, and that's the thing,
knowing who you can count on when

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you get stuck, who's, someone who's
actually going to genuinely be

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like, oh, we'll come and help you.

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That group becomes smaller and
smaller, and like, and that, the joke

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was we realised who, in those years,
who our close friends really were.

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The people who were going to drop
stuff and come and help us because

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a truck is whatever, you know.

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And knowing you have those sorts of levels
of support and friendship is, yeah, yeah.

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Sam: So do you find if you got to a
point in your life where you're like,

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I've got enough money just to pay, like,
I'm not claiming, I don't even feel this

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way now, but let's say I was comfortable
enough with just going and paying

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removalists as a single person even,
does that mean I'm less likely to have?

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Uh, that, that I'm less likely
toll have that habit of calling on.

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Joe: I think actually over about 35.

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You

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Ali: should never, yeah,
you shouldn't be hitting it.

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I mean, we were quite young, man
should just find the money, right?

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We were in our twenties,

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, 
Joe: but I was panicking a bit last week
and I was like, fuck, I can borrow a

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truck and I'll, and I asked four Yeah.

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Friends, how many?

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And I, you know, and one of 'em
wasn't my oldest friend, Benny

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Anderson, 'cause he's just got brand
new baby and it's like, last thing.

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Sam: Leave, leave him alone.

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No, no, leave him alone.

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So it's like, mind you, he might
love an excuse to be honest.

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Joe: But, in the end, the four
people I asked all said yes, so

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I know they're my true friends.

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And then someone else mentioned,
just get on Facebook Marketplace

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and find someone to do it for cheap.

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And I realised I was better off,
even if I had to borrow some money

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to do that, to pay someone to do
it, which is what I'm going to do.

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But, I did the friendship test.

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And actually, who my four
go tos were, unexpected.

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One of them was Sam, one of
them's a friend from high school

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who's come back into my life.

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It wasn't who it would have been...

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Five years ago.

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I

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Ali: think, yeah, that.

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Or maybe even two years ago.

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I think you have over a lifetime, you
have your circle, so you're always

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going to have your, the people that
you go to, but that circle changes.

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And I think people will move in
and out over it over a lifetime.

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So like when you're young, you might
have, yeah, they're your mate in school,

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but then you might have a few, you know,
months, say in your twenties where you'd

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like going out all the time or then,
yeah, they come back into your life when

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you have kids cause they've asked you
for some advice or you might run into

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them and then all of a sudden it's all on
again and people move in and out of that.

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Because, yeah, life events happen.

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Things will take them out of that
circle for various reasons, whether

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it's, yeah, family commitments, jobs.

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They start a relationship.

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Yeah, they start a relationship,
which is probably the biggest one.

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Um, yeah, like, those
sorts of things will, yeah.

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But I think a real, like a true friend
will move in and out of that really

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comfortably, like, with no time, with
no matter how much time has passed.

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Whereas, Yeah, like then there'll
be people for whatever reason, once

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they're out of that circle, they're
never really going to be quite in again.

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And that's the ones you've
got to learn to let go of.

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Oh

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Sam: yeah, that's true.

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Once you're out, you're out.

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Like there's a, there is, there
are, because there's, when you were

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talking earlier about, I think what
you were trying to say earlier was

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letting go temporarily sometimes.

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Yeah.

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Um, and that understanding that there's a,
that that's a good thing to do and that.

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So, even if, whether you may or may not
hang out again in the future, and I was

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thinking of one person in particular
where we have, we've very much had seasons

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and not summer things, not a particular
autumn, uh, get together or anything like

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that, but just like a few years will go
by, we'll run into each other and then

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we'll start up something and then that'll,
that'll go strong for a year or two.

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And then...

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The same thing.

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Again, like it's just, and
it's been very productive.

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Joe: But in terms of running into each
other, is the, is what happens now the

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illusion that you've stayed in contact
because of something like social media?

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You haven't seen them for three
years, but you're like, yeah, I

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don't know what they're doing.

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And I've seen them.

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It's like, no, you haven't.

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Ali: One of my close, I would say who's
in my circle, who my closest friends,

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but it doesn't live that far away.

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And people aren't posting either.

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Yeah.

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Like, yeah, we just, we,
it's just a meme exchange.

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It's been a meme exchange for
years and years and years.

00:11:14.194 --> 00:11:16.357
And, and also like life
advice and we talk and stuff.

00:11:16.357 --> 00:11:20.997
And so we talk most days, but it's very
hard to actually pin her down to catch

00:11:20.997 --> 00:11:22.827
up because of her life circumstance.

00:11:22.827 --> 00:11:23.137
And I like.

00:11:23.402 --> 00:11:26.702
Yeah, just our availability,
but it does give the illusion, I

00:11:26.722 --> 00:11:28.262
think, that there is a closeness.

00:11:28.812 --> 00:11:32.012
that potentially isn't there in the
way that it is with other people.

00:11:32.422 --> 00:11:33.422
Yeah, It's still

00:11:33.502 --> 00:11:34.562
Sam: serving a purpose, though, I guess.

00:11:35.392 --> 00:11:38.482
And perhaps because there's not
that expectation you're going to be

00:11:38.482 --> 00:11:40.382
catching up in person anytime soon.

00:11:40.472 --> 00:11:46.442
It actually maybe preserves kind of text
channel to be a particular thing in a way,

00:11:46.472 --> 00:11:48.362
because you don't have to clutter it with.

00:11:48.557 --> 00:11:49.417
Try to make plans.

00:11:49.417 --> 00:11:51.967
You can, it's just a particular
go to for a particular purpose.

00:11:52.717 --> 00:11:56.077
Joe: Have either of you had like
a painful friendship breakup?

00:11:56.097 --> 00:11:56.297
Yeah.

00:11:56.367 --> 00:11:57.427
Oh, yeah, yeah.

00:11:57.477 --> 00:12:01.257
That you can remember or talk
about even in anonymized terms?

00:12:01.307 --> 00:12:06.297
Ali: Yeah, I have two in over my life that
have two people who've come into my life

00:12:06.297 --> 00:12:09.722
who I thought were You know, like this,
the kids would say, right, or die, or like

00:12:09.722 --> 00:12:13.362
a really, like a friend who would, who
was going to be there for the long haul.

00:12:13.362 --> 00:12:16.182
And I mean, it was for a
very long time and then for

00:12:16.362 --> 00:12:17.722
various reasons have moved out.

00:12:17.722 --> 00:12:21.232
And so the first one, when
I was really young and.

00:12:21.622 --> 00:12:25.692
We'd met at a party and we had like
mutual friends and it was one of those

00:12:25.702 --> 00:12:29.062
nights where you're on ecstasy and you're
up all night and you're just chatting

00:12:29.062 --> 00:12:31.042
till 7 in the morning just talking shit.

00:12:31.532 --> 00:12:35.192
And from that night on it
was just, we were best buds.

00:12:35.482 --> 00:12:39.882
We, like I would go to his house,
we were so awkward and shy around

00:12:39.892 --> 00:12:43.062
the opposite sex and so we would go
back to his place after the pub, like

00:12:43.062 --> 00:12:45.342
everyone would be at the pub, we'd
all go out but then he and I would

00:12:45.342 --> 00:12:46.852
always peel off, go back to his place.

00:12:46.852 --> 00:12:47.652
Incel buds.

00:12:47.932 --> 00:12:50.982
Yeah, before

00:12:50.982 --> 00:12:55.352
Sam: the term was scary, because
the very first public person to

00:12:55.352 --> 00:12:57.102
call themselves incel was a woman.

00:12:57.652 --> 00:13:00.502
And you would have probably identified
somewhat with her, and I would

00:13:00.502 --> 00:13:02.362
have too, at the time, at times.

00:13:02.862 --> 00:13:06.362
And she was just saying, I'm
just, I'm just, I'm a dork

00:13:06.372 --> 00:13:07.642
who's just unlucky in love.

00:13:07.652 --> 00:13:08.452
And I feel like.

00:13:08.937 --> 00:13:11.347
Yeah, yeah, that was kind of,
does anyone else feel the same

00:13:11.347 --> 00:13:12.747
way as me and wanna, yeah,

00:13:12.747 --> 00:13:16.327
Ali: and we had a lot in common, we'd
go back and watch DVDs, we used to have

00:13:16.327 --> 00:13:21.047
our regular DVD concerts, we used to
watch and drink and we'd fall asleep

00:13:21.047 --> 00:13:24.607
together next to each other, like three
or four nights a week, he would call

00:13:24.617 --> 00:13:28.237
me at five in the morning and I would
answer, this went on for years and years

00:13:28.237 --> 00:13:33.717
and years, he was my really, really
good friend and I, Loved him so much.

00:13:33.727 --> 00:13:34.707
And he loved me.

00:13:34.708 --> 00:13:36.427
Was he up all night when
he called you at five?

00:13:36.627 --> 00:13:37.187
Not always.

00:13:37.217 --> 00:13:39.767
No, like, yes, but he was just my person.

00:13:39.957 --> 00:13:42.677
That we were each other's person
for like, in a lot of ways,

00:13:42.677 --> 00:13:44.137
I think we were playing out

00:13:44.827 --> 00:13:44.997
Joe: a surrogate.

00:13:45.317 --> 00:13:46.427
Did you weren't rooting each other?

00:13:46.847 --> 00:13:50.407
Ali: Yeah, because there
wasn't really that physical

00:13:50.407 --> 00:13:51.997
attraction, certainly not from me.

00:13:51.997 --> 00:13:55.557
And he said that to me, however.

00:13:55.577 --> 00:13:57.187
It might have even been
true when he said it.

00:13:57.207 --> 00:13:57.827
Yeah, exactly.

00:13:58.712 --> 00:14:01.732
What had happened, and then it wasn't
true later, and then it wasn't true later,

00:14:01.732 --> 00:14:06.122
and we, I met somebody, and then all of
a sudden I was in a relationship, and we

00:14:06.152 --> 00:14:09.392
were doing this, and I had mentioned to
this, my new partner at the time, that

00:14:09.392 --> 00:14:12.702
look, I have this friend, and he stays,
and like, this is our, you know, and he

00:14:12.702 --> 00:14:16.692
was a bit like, ooh, this sounds like, You
know, you share a bed and nothing happens.

00:14:16.692 --> 00:14:17.832
I'm like, literally
nothing's happened in years.

00:14:17.832 --> 00:14:18.182
It's cool.

00:14:18.182 --> 00:14:19.892
Like it's like, it's like
a Michael Jackson thing.

00:14:21.122 --> 00:14:23.732
And then, so he came and
did the regular thing.

00:14:23.732 --> 00:14:26.972
We, you know, and we went to bed and
he was staying the night at my place.

00:14:26.972 --> 00:14:29.262
And then all of a sudden he's,
he's gone to make a move.

00:14:29.282 --> 00:14:35.592
And I was like, what the f and I'm
like, now of all time, I was, part

00:14:35.592 --> 00:14:37.462
of me was just like heartbroken.

00:14:37.462 --> 00:14:38.402
And I was like, of all.

00:14:38.737 --> 00:14:41.077
Like, I've just finally,
you've been through so much

00:14:41.077 --> 00:14:42.317
with me, and seen how much...

00:14:42.427 --> 00:14:43.137
Let me ask you this.

00:14:43.337 --> 00:14:44.197
Joe: Have you ever met men?

00:14:45.837 --> 00:14:46.647
Ali: Yeah, yeah.

00:14:46.647 --> 00:14:47.777
What do you think, Ali?

00:14:47.787 --> 00:14:50.277
I just, I just, but like, I never got...

00:14:50.367 --> 00:14:52.527
Joe: Men are biding their fucking time.

00:14:52.737 --> 00:14:54.737
That is 90% of male female

00:14:54.767 --> 00:14:54.987
Sam: friendships.

00:14:54.988 --> 00:14:55.187
For years, for years.

00:14:55.187 --> 00:14:57.437
Joe's taking Harry's side
in When Harry Met Sally.

00:14:57.817 --> 00:14:59.027
Joe: They're biding their time.

00:14:59.797 --> 00:15:05.407
Whenever there's been ambiguity in,
in my friendships with women, none of

00:15:05.407 --> 00:15:06.757
those women are friends with me now.

00:15:06.907 --> 00:15:07.077
So,

00:15:07.197 --> 00:15:08.127
Ali: it's interesting that...

00:15:08.432 --> 00:15:10.372
So, cause afterwards,
like we had this huge cry.

00:15:10.382 --> 00:15:11.652
Both of us were crying.

00:15:11.662 --> 00:15:15.082
Like he was like, it was really, it
was really full on and he was crying.

00:15:15.082 --> 00:15:17.582
He was like, and he goes,
I feel like I'm losing.

00:15:17.712 --> 00:15:18.842
I said, why did you do it now?

00:15:18.842 --> 00:15:21.752
And he said, I feel like I'm
losing my best friend as in two.

00:15:22.272 --> 00:15:23.342
And I think that's why

00:15:23.522 --> 00:15:25.412
Joe: he could give you what the
other guy was going to give you.

00:15:26.182 --> 00:15:27.162
He gets to keep his Ali.

00:15:27.172 --> 00:15:27.602
Ali: Yes.

00:15:28.252 --> 00:15:29.342
And that's, and that's what it was.

00:15:29.342 --> 00:15:31.242
And it was just never the same after that.

00:15:31.472 --> 00:15:31.532
There's all

00:15:31.532 --> 00:15:32.592
Sam: kinds of complexity here.

00:15:32.612 --> 00:15:33.712
Like I just want to.

00:15:33.997 --> 00:15:37.877
Speak up in favor of this guy
for a second, because my initial

00:15:37.877 --> 00:15:40.377
judgment has shifted, I think.

00:15:40.537 --> 00:15:43.907
And I think he was doing a bit of an
Indiana Jones, grab the hat from under

00:15:43.907 --> 00:15:45.637
the door as it's like rolling down.

00:15:46.107 --> 00:15:48.367
And, you know, he's
like, it's now or never.

00:15:48.597 --> 00:15:53.067
But, so there's a good chance
that there actually was, in his

00:15:53.067 --> 00:15:55.057
mind, the long term goal of...

00:15:55.087 --> 00:15:57.697
Joe: I would go back to say
that first night when I stayed

00:15:57.757 --> 00:15:59.617
up till 7am on ecstasy talking.

00:16:00.407 --> 00:16:03.627
He wanted to kiss Ali back then, for sure.

00:16:03.628 --> 00:16:04.121
I don't

00:16:04.121 --> 00:16:06.387
Ali: know, I mean, I never got
that impression though, in the

00:16:06.397 --> 00:16:07.357
whole time we were together

00:16:07.357 --> 00:16:07.557
Sam: though.

00:16:07.567 --> 00:16:08.597
Yeah, but I was that guy, to some extent.

00:16:09.357 --> 00:16:09.997
Yeah, yeah, you

00:16:09.997 --> 00:16:11.307
Joe: know what, I'm going
to help you out here.

00:16:11.307 --> 00:16:13.277
I'm a bit like you, I went in
and out, like one minute I'd

00:16:13.437 --> 00:16:16.957
have some incredibly attractive
girlfriend and I'd be riding high.

00:16:16.997 --> 00:16:17.227
Yeah.

00:16:17.367 --> 00:16:21.687
Then I'd go back to like borderline incel,
had no idea how to approach the opposite

00:16:21.707 --> 00:16:24.337
sex and the confidence never really built.

00:16:24.497 --> 00:16:27.467
Sam: No, and I never understood
why I succeeded or failed.

00:16:30.057 --> 00:16:30.327
Yeah.

00:16:30.777 --> 00:16:32.807
And like one of my best female
friends turned to me one point.

00:16:32.807 --> 00:16:37.337
She said, your girlfriend is the most
beautiful girl on all of Brunswick Street.

00:16:37.907 --> 00:16:39.017
And I'm like, are you serious?

00:16:39.217 --> 00:16:39.917
I don't remember that one.

00:16:39.927 --> 00:16:40.827
Yeah, you probably do.

00:16:41.297 --> 00:16:42.137
Shout out to Carly.

00:16:44.657 --> 00:16:46.637
And she's still the belle of the ball.

00:16:46.667 --> 00:16:50.357
But you know, like it's, it's a
funny thing because I didn't realise

00:16:50.357 --> 00:16:53.477
until later because Claire was in
the friend zone with me looking back.

00:16:53.857 --> 00:16:55.377
I didn't really pick up on it at the time.

00:16:55.797 --> 00:16:57.267
Now I won't say in a big way.

00:16:57.727 --> 00:16:59.507
I Think she could take it
or leave it kind of thing.

00:16:59.767 --> 00:17:02.227
And we weren't hanging out all
the time like you and old mate.

00:17:02.967 --> 00:17:06.677
And I did have feelings for Claire
sometimes, but I knew that I was

00:17:06.677 --> 00:17:07.927
not going to be a good boyfriend.

00:17:07.927 --> 00:17:10.597
So I was just like, nah, yeah.

00:17:12.002 --> 00:17:12.832
, spoken for that.

00:17:12.882 --> 00:17:13.932
Fast forward 12 months.

00:17:14.082 --> 00:17:15.462
And I'm like, who am I?

00:17:16.062 --> 00:17:16.972
What is love?

00:17:18.082 --> 00:17:18.902
Baby don't hurt me.

00:17:18.902 --> 00:17:19.372
Like nothing.

00:17:19.592 --> 00:17:21.022
Like what am I doing wrong?

00:17:21.062 --> 00:17:23.952
And then, but then, you know, and
then I hit a purple patch after

00:17:23.952 --> 00:17:26.582
that where it was just ridiculous
and just couldn't put a foot wrong.

00:17:26.722 --> 00:17:28.612
And then other times just
couldn't put a foot right.

00:17:29.122 --> 00:17:31.452
And it was, there were friendships that.

00:17:32.357 --> 00:17:36.277
You know, sustained me emotionally
through that period, but yeah, I've

00:17:36.277 --> 00:17:40.327
got to say some of them were in
that weird area of one or the other,

00:17:40.537 --> 00:17:44.277
or maybe even both of us kind of
contemplating and then not doing anything.

00:17:44.517 --> 00:17:49.527
And to me, that's like a very
early to mid twenties type of vibe.

00:17:49.857 --> 00:17:52.137
Ali: Yeah, in that time, like, you
know, when you're hanging out in

00:17:52.157 --> 00:17:55.027
big social groups and you're going,
you usually have your regular pub

00:17:55.027 --> 00:17:56.137
nights or your regular nights out.

00:17:56.137 --> 00:17:59.127
And like, I'd hooked up with his
mates, like, you know, cause you

00:17:59.127 --> 00:18:02.017
know, you go like, cause early
twenties that's, and he'd never

00:18:02.157 --> 00:18:03.687
had batted an eyelid about that.

00:18:03.687 --> 00:18:04.987
He'd never, he was fine with that.

00:18:04.997 --> 00:18:08.472
I think, I do think genuinely
part of it was like, he felt like.

00:18:08.832 --> 00:18:10.872
He was losing his best
friend and I don't think it's

00:18:10.872 --> 00:18:13.662
Sam: the the long term goal was there,
but I think it came and went I think there

00:18:13.662 --> 00:18:16.642
were times he was into you physically and
then times he wasn't and was just like no

00:18:16.642 --> 00:18:20.172
I just like having this person and then
when he senses it's it's gonna be gone

00:18:20.172 --> 00:18:22.082
forever He's like, well, I've got a step

00:18:22.082 --> 00:18:24.762
Ali: up because I think we will
somehow sort of playing out almost

00:18:24.762 --> 00:18:29.032
like this weird proxy relationship We
were in a relationship without sex.

00:18:29.072 --> 00:18:30.402
That's what it was That's right.

00:18:30.772 --> 00:18:32.512
He was a person I could
lean on and vice versa.

00:18:32.632 --> 00:18:33.562
And what's he going to do without

00:18:33.562 --> 00:18:34.232
Sam: that intimacy?

00:18:34.232 --> 00:18:35.902
Like men need that as much as women.

00:18:36.402 --> 00:18:39.852
Ali: And like, not long after
he met someone and then was

00:18:39.892 --> 00:18:41.792
married within 12 months.

00:18:41.792 --> 00:18:45.212
And like, yeah, like it was,
and I just, yeah, hardly ever

00:18:45.212 --> 00:18:46.102
Joe: heard from him.

00:18:46.192 --> 00:18:47.532
And what was the second one Ali?

00:18:47.772 --> 00:18:49.122
And then Sam's going
to have to give us one.

00:18:49.192 --> 00:18:49.442
Yeah.

00:18:49.622 --> 00:18:49.772
So

00:18:49.852 --> 00:18:54.032
Ali: the second one was,
it started off as a fling.

00:18:54.162 --> 00:18:57.712
We just had like a little fling,
but then He was just like, I

00:18:57.712 --> 00:18:58.682
don't think I'm interested.

00:18:58.682 --> 00:18:59.502
I was like, cool, whatever.

00:18:59.502 --> 00:19:01.272
But then we just started chatting, right?

00:19:01.702 --> 00:19:06.312
Like just over the, you know,
and then that chatting then

00:19:06.312 --> 00:19:08.222
became, yeah, like, fling first.

00:19:08.232 --> 00:19:08.832
Fling first.

00:19:08.882 --> 00:19:10.912
Yeah, like it was only
hooked up a couple of times.

00:19:11.162 --> 00:19:14.692
Joe: So both of your friendship, both
of your friend breakups involved sex.

00:19:14.982 --> 00:19:15.662
Ali: Well, yeah.

00:19:16.872 --> 00:19:20.152
Because like then what happened
is, yeah, we then, yeah, it started

00:19:20.152 --> 00:19:22.812
to turn into a friendship and then
a very deep friendship and a very

00:19:22.812 --> 00:19:24.302
supportive and loving friendship.

00:19:24.383 --> 00:19:27.923
We had a lot of shared experiences
around mental health and bipolar.

00:19:27.933 --> 00:19:27.953
So

00:19:29.053 --> 00:19:31.333
Sam: this goes against the
one and done picture of men

00:19:31.333 --> 00:19:32.233
you were painting earlier, Jo.

00:19:32.253 --> 00:19:33.463
Yeah, so...

00:19:33.993 --> 00:19:35.583
Well, no, you weren't
quite going for that.

00:19:35.643 --> 00:19:38.833
But I think this is a good
illustration of the idea that a man

00:19:38.833 --> 00:19:42.463
could, you know, sleep with you a
couple of times and then be like...

00:19:42.883 --> 00:19:44.403
There's actually something
more important here.

00:19:44.603 --> 00:19:44.793
Yeah,

00:19:45.033 --> 00:19:50.103
Ali: yeah, and there really was for years
and he was very supportive and very caring

00:19:50.493 --> 00:19:58.283
but he also had a lot of, um, his own
mental health issues and things were, I

00:19:58.283 --> 00:20:03.868
was in quite a vulnerable position at the
time and I realized actually then going

00:20:03.868 --> 00:20:07.938
into therapy and explaining this dynamic
that I had to my therapist that it was

00:20:07.938 --> 00:20:11.988
actually quite unhealthy for me and that
this man was actually quite manipulative.

00:20:13.878 --> 00:20:17.148
It was quite manipulative and he'd
said some really appalling things and I

00:20:17.158 --> 00:20:20.088
decided to that actually no this isn't.

00:20:20.332 --> 00:20:24.172
This isn't actually healthy or good for
me, and I made a really conscious decision

00:20:24.172 --> 00:20:26.712
of letting that person go out of my life.

00:20:26.872 --> 00:20:30.752
Um, which is the only, one and only
time I've ever done that in my life

00:20:30.752 --> 00:20:33.992
and actually said, No, I just don't
think I can be your friend anymore.

00:20:34.772 --> 00:20:38.092
because yeah, he'd said some incredibly
hurtful things that normally I would

00:20:38.092 --> 00:20:41.452
have just copped, I think, thinking
like, oh, you know, people make mistakes

00:20:41.452 --> 00:20:45.052
or whatever it was, but actually what
he'd said and done was so not okay.

00:20:45.410 --> 00:20:45.920
and...

00:20:46.710 --> 00:20:49.970
Yeah, so simultaneously it was
heartbreaking because like there was

00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:53.810
a like because we'd again been friends
for years And I thought you know what

00:20:53.810 --> 00:20:57.780
we had was really a special friendship
And and it wasn't I did lean on him

00:20:57.780 --> 00:21:01.680
heavily and vice versa and we did
lots of kind Loving things for each

00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:03.330
other and I don't think that's right.

00:21:03.330 --> 00:21:07.500
I think that's yeah It was it was really
it was a genuine loving huge part of my

00:21:07.500 --> 00:21:14.865
life and but then yeah, it was absolutely
Like it just turned quite Toxic.

00:21:14.865 --> 00:21:18.365
And I think whether I don't want to, like,
I don't want to say his mental health was

00:21:18.365 --> 00:21:22.455
the, the, the cause of that, but it was,
I can't say that it wasn't a contributing

00:21:22.455 --> 00:21:26.405
factor, but there was, I mean, yeah, there
was behavioral things in there as well.

00:21:26.535 --> 00:21:27.805
Maybe, maybe he didn't know how to

00:21:27.805 --> 00:21:30.435
Sam: end it or something that
maybe he needed to move on to.

00:21:30.535 --> 00:21:31.125
I think he did.

00:21:31.125 --> 00:21:31.375
Yeah.

00:21:31.605 --> 00:21:34.895
Ali: We, we, again, it was, there
was, even though we'd both been in

00:21:34.895 --> 00:21:37.685
relationships and stuff over the
years, we also leaned on each other

00:21:37.705 --> 00:21:41.355
in a semi sort of proxy relationship
kind of way, and that the things we

00:21:41.355 --> 00:21:44.765
weren't getting necessarily from the
relationships We got from each other.

00:21:45.045 --> 00:21:47.125
There was definitely an
intellectual and an emotional

00:21:47.125 --> 00:21:48.365
connection between the two of us.

00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:51.640
I mean, it's great with, I mean, Joe
and I would, you know, you've got a

00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:54.090
bipolar friend, you're talking a million
miles an hour, you're drawing on heaps

00:21:54.090 --> 00:21:57.560
of bits of it, like someone who could
keep up and those people are rare when

00:21:57.560 --> 00:21:58.630
they come in and out of your life.

00:21:59.080 --> 00:21:59.210
It

00:21:59.210 --> 00:22:02.500
Joe: sounds like I'm fulfilling that role
that you've always had, which is that one

00:22:02.500 --> 00:22:03.820
male friend that you don't sleep with.

00:22:04.330 --> 00:22:07.250
I've always had close male
friendships my case, also bipolar

00:22:07.290 --> 00:22:08.770
and also says horrible things to you

00:22:10.610 --> 00:22:11.240
Ali: sometimes, so it's like...

00:22:11.270 --> 00:22:13.890
Yeah, I just need a bully in
my, a bipolar bully in my life,

00:22:13.890 --> 00:22:15.500
it's very, no, not all of them.

00:22:15.500 --> 00:22:15.530
It's

00:22:17.900 --> 00:22:20.020
Joe: like some There,
that I'm in the role,

00:22:20.060 --> 00:22:23.170
Sam: yeah, I started to think that
while you were saying, yeah, and I

00:22:23.370 --> 00:22:26.590
think it's, clearly it's a sign of
things having changed in your life,

00:22:26.800 --> 00:22:30.665
Ali, that, that You know, you can,
you can have Joe in this position

00:22:30.665 --> 00:22:32.305
of importance, but it's, you know, I

00:22:32.305 --> 00:22:32.965
Ali: think it's balanced.

00:22:32.985 --> 00:22:34.445
It's balanced and it's in a healthy way.

00:22:34.445 --> 00:22:37.905
And I think after, particularly
with therapy, like if Joe does say

00:22:38.045 --> 00:22:41.175
something a bit off, which is, you
know, not often, but like, you know,

00:22:41.235 --> 00:22:44.595
he does say, I just tell you now,
like, whereas I would never have said.

00:22:44.830 --> 00:22:48.900
That was hurtful or I didn't like that or,
you know, pull your head in, but I mean,

00:22:49.580 --> 00:22:51.250
you're actually not like that at all.

00:22:51.290 --> 00:22:52.050
You're actually genuine.

00:22:52.520 --> 00:22:55.360
Sam: And Joe's never trying to
hurt anyone, unless he means to.

00:22:55.370 --> 00:22:59.240
Ali: Yours is just generally, it's
just bluntness that some people, and I

00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:02.580
appreciate the bluntness and I think a
lot of people find that really polarizing.

00:23:02.580 --> 00:23:04.370
Joe: Sometimes you just need
to lift your fucking game, Ali.

00:23:05.310 --> 00:23:07.430
Sam: Sometimes you need a
coach who talks to you firmly.

00:23:07.460 --> 00:23:07.840
Ali: I do.

00:23:07.840 --> 00:23:08.430
I really do.

00:23:08.430 --> 00:23:08.490
I.

00:23:08.740 --> 00:23:10.920
I need that in relationships,
in all my relationships.

00:23:11.150 --> 00:23:11.470
I do.

00:23:11.470 --> 00:23:11.690
I actually.

00:23:11.810 --> 00:23:13.000
It's an ASD thing.

00:23:13.000 --> 00:23:14.100
I like the directness.

00:23:14.100 --> 00:23:15.750
Sam: And you don't want
it to come from a partner.

00:23:15.810 --> 00:23:15.970
No!

00:23:16.220 --> 00:23:17.350
Romantic partner, that sucks.

00:23:17.360 --> 00:23:18.050
Yeah, exactly.

00:23:18.300 --> 00:23:18.470
Yeah.

00:23:18.550 --> 00:23:20.700
It's really good to have a friend
that's just like, come on, bro.

00:23:20.710 --> 00:23:21.100
What about

00:23:21.100 --> 00:23:21.560
Joe: you, Sam?

00:23:21.560 --> 00:23:23.480
Do you have a particular friend, breakup?

00:23:23.520 --> 00:23:24.510
Well, I just want to, yeah,

00:23:24.600 --> 00:23:27.860
Sam: well, the one, the person I mentioned
earlier, like that's come in and out,

00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:30.490
like the first time that that happened.

00:23:31.170 --> 00:23:35.730
That we, because we've, thinking
back, I think we were quite, or not

00:23:35.730 --> 00:23:39.410
quite in the, not the romantic zone,
but like that intimacy and that

00:23:39.410 --> 00:23:42.780
dependence in our early 20s, like we
really needed each other at times.

00:23:44.890 --> 00:23:48.720
You know, like, Joe, you can remember,
and maybe we still experience it now

00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:53.372
as older men, you, that sometimes
when two, two men are close, there's

00:23:53.372 --> 00:23:57.112
like an asexual romanticism that
we've all experienced, I think.

00:23:57.292 --> 00:24:01.782
Ali: I've, I've heard, I've heard that
men say, like a lot of men experience

00:24:01.782 --> 00:24:04.462
romance through other men and not
actually through their romantic partners.

00:24:04.682 --> 00:24:07.902
That's what the real, the real
loves of their lives are the men.

00:24:08.172 --> 00:24:08.332
They've often

00:24:08.332 --> 00:24:08.672
Joe: been there.

00:24:08.792 --> 00:24:10.422
The great text on that is.

00:24:10.792 --> 00:24:11.692
He's on the road.

00:24:11.742 --> 00:24:12.142
Yeah.

00:24:13.012 --> 00:24:13.812
Cause he revered

00:24:13.872 --> 00:24:14.322
Sam: Dean.

00:24:14.522 --> 00:24:15.132
Yeah.

00:24:15.132 --> 00:24:15.352
And

00:24:15.352 --> 00:24:16.692
Joe: we've all had that, I think.

00:24:16.942 --> 00:24:20.312
I mean, when I look back on my twenties,
it was getting together on a Sunday

00:24:20.312 --> 00:24:24.132
at a certain friend's house with a
couple of other particular friends and

00:24:24.132 --> 00:24:28.402
reviewing the night before, who'd picked
up, who got too drunk and threw up,

00:24:28.782 --> 00:24:31.242
who took some acid, blah, blah, blah.

00:24:31.292 --> 00:24:35.982
But then you'd be drinking again on
the Sunday or smoking weed or whatever.

00:24:36.282 --> 00:24:39.042
You'd have the music going and you'd
be reviewing the Saturday night.

00:24:40.012 --> 00:24:44.252
Now, it's taken a lot of grieving to
let go of so much of that, there's no

00:24:44.522 --> 00:24:48.252
Saturday night, there's no drug taking,
there's no booze, there's no three friends

00:24:48.252 --> 00:24:52.332
that I meet up with on a Sunday, all of
that is gone, and what I, I guess what

00:24:52.332 --> 00:24:56.177
I want to talk about a bit today is,
it's actually quite painful I agree.

00:24:56.267 --> 00:25:00.717
But, finally, I'm finding a
lot of acceptance around it.

00:25:00.717 --> 00:25:01.047
Yes.

00:25:01.117 --> 00:25:02.807
And creating some new friendships.

00:25:02.807 --> 00:25:03.157
Same.

00:25:03.667 --> 00:25:06.807
Whereas I think I spent 10 years
hanging on to the idea that one day,

00:25:06.807 --> 00:25:11.247
the Sunday afternoon, at that friend's
house would come back, and it would

00:25:11.257 --> 00:25:14.777
be telling war stories from the night
before, and the glory days, and blah

00:25:14.777 --> 00:25:19.252
blah blah, and we can't, isn't it
in Sopranos, like, Um, there's no

00:25:19.362 --> 00:25:20.992
sadder story than remember when.

00:25:21.222 --> 00:25:21.722
Oh, a hundred percent.

00:25:22.272 --> 00:25:22.482
Sam: Yeah.

00:25:22.482 --> 00:25:23.852
And you know, I've been getting those.

00:25:24.732 --> 00:25:25.062
Yeah.

00:25:25.132 --> 00:25:26.322
It often takes me a while.

00:25:26.342 --> 00:25:30.832
Like you'll hit that emotional base
note that you want me to get on.

00:25:30.832 --> 00:25:33.422
It takes me a while to
warm up and find it.

00:25:34.332 --> 00:25:37.962
I sometimes get the Peter Allen
moment, you know, someday we'll

00:25:37.962 --> 00:25:40.092
all be together once more.

00:25:40.982 --> 00:25:44.872
And you know, when that pops into your
head, there's a certain sentimental

00:25:45.282 --> 00:25:48.172
romanticism there that is like false.

00:25:48.557 --> 00:25:48.937
And it's illusory.

00:25:49.587 --> 00:25:50.177
Yeah, they're gone.

00:25:50.187 --> 00:25:50.497
Ali: It's, yeah.

00:25:50.727 --> 00:25:53.337
I certainly had that, yeah, with
the girl, my girlfriends and stuff.

00:25:53.357 --> 00:25:57.137
You know, it was particularly going to an
all girls school, that dynamic of, yeah,

00:25:57.137 --> 00:26:00.757
you're sharing what's happened, who's
into who, like, you know, that breakdown,

00:26:00.757 --> 00:26:03.337
that regular catch up of like, oh, I'm
just swinging by, we're going to have a

00:26:03.347 --> 00:26:04.826
wine, we're going to chat, blah, blah.

00:26:04.827 --> 00:26:05.027
Yeah.

00:26:05.027 --> 00:26:06.097
You have to let go of.

00:26:06.462 --> 00:26:09.522
That experience and now it's sort of
and moving into a different stage of

00:26:09.722 --> 00:26:13.362
I'll come over for a cup of tea or
whatever You know, like, you know,

00:26:13.532 --> 00:26:13.962
Joe: whatever.

00:26:13.962 --> 00:26:14.292
I tried

00:26:14.312 --> 00:26:14.432
to

00:26:14.432 --> 00:26:15.512
Sam: keep those going.

00:26:15.532 --> 00:26:18.672
Yeah, the one on one is more productive
anyway than like having the full

00:26:18.692 --> 00:26:21.342
bench Yeah, you know, like it's
great to have the other thing that

00:26:21.342 --> 00:26:23.852
Joe: I've had about, sorry, you
haven't explained the rest of your

00:26:23.852 --> 00:26:29.052
story about your man romance and I'll
let you finish that thread, but The

00:26:29.052 --> 00:26:33.232
other thing I've tried since I got
sober, which failed, is going to a

00:26:33.232 --> 00:26:39.612
man's house and having a coffee Yeah,
and talking about life is a bad idea.

00:26:40.252 --> 00:26:40.862
Mm hmm.

00:26:40.952 --> 00:26:41.272
Oh, yes.

00:26:41.272 --> 00:26:41.442
Yes.

00:26:41.442 --> 00:26:41.682
Yes.

00:26:41.682 --> 00:26:47.692
No, whereas yeah, because most of blokey
blokes Yeah, whereas if I can go with

00:26:47.902 --> 00:26:53.682
them and watch the footy Yeah, and
then we'll be discussing like life and

00:26:53.682 --> 00:26:55.342
the world while the footy's happening.

00:26:55.886 --> 00:26:59.206
That works, or with an activity
like playing cricket together,

00:26:59.546 --> 00:27:02.386
or a round of golf like I did
that yesterday with a new friend.

00:27:02.896 --> 00:27:08.256
That works, but because I'm
fucking intense, I don't feel

00:27:08.256 --> 00:27:09.636
it because it's just how I am.

00:27:10.406 --> 00:27:13.206
They go through this intense
hour where I'm like...

00:27:13.421 --> 00:27:18.011
Yeah, I'm finding it really hard to, uh,
understand my relationships with women and

00:27:18.011 --> 00:27:19.631
like, they don't want to talk like that.

00:27:20.151 --> 00:27:25.461
But generally, they'll have those
conversations late at night or like...

00:27:25.461 --> 00:27:25.621
No, no,

00:27:25.761 --> 00:27:26.211
Sam: there has to be a

00:27:26.211 --> 00:27:26.961
Joe: holding space.

00:27:26.981 --> 00:27:27.521
Yeah.

00:27:27.521 --> 00:27:31.141
So I've just had to pull back and
realize you can't impose yourself.

00:27:31.791 --> 00:27:35.771
And in those conversations that would
happen over seven hours in a pub MDMA.

00:27:38.616 --> 00:27:39.916
It's just gonna be different.

00:27:40.076 --> 00:27:45.486
It's probably not gonna be as good, I
have to admit, but like, there's still

00:27:45.496 --> 00:27:49.180
the possibility of connection, there
really is, and maybe it's more honest

00:27:49.180 --> 00:27:54.240
than when you're off your fucking head,
but, those experiments of just inviting

00:27:54.550 --> 00:27:59.980
myself around to people's places that I
liked, to have a coffee, It just left me

00:27:59.980 --> 00:28:03.720
with that feeling of like, Oh, that was,
I think that was awkward for that person.

00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.700
I don't want to do that to them

00:28:05.700 --> 00:28:06.010
Ali: again.

00:28:06.050 --> 00:28:10.390
I'm not, I mean, I simultaneously long
for being able to have a circle of friends

00:28:10.390 --> 00:28:14.920
or people that can just pop in just
for the coffee in a really spontaneous

00:28:15.130 --> 00:28:17.190
way, which I obviously do not have.

00:28:17.190 --> 00:28:20.360
Like, I mean, with people, with kids,
jobs, nobody has that sort of time.

00:28:20.360 --> 00:28:22.970
And even if I did, yeah, I
would feel awkward as fuck.

00:28:22.980 --> 00:28:25.540
Like, you know, just like, like
they'd probably think if I was.

00:28:25.915 --> 00:28:28.135
I'm going to randomly call up a friend
and be like, Oh, by the way, I'm

00:28:28.135 --> 00:28:29.255
just going to stop in for a coffee.

00:28:29.255 --> 00:28:32.185
They're like, she's going to tell
me something serious or something's

00:28:32.185 --> 00:28:33.275
out, like something's actually out.

00:28:33.785 --> 00:28:34.055
Yeah.

00:28:34.055 --> 00:28:37.675
Like it's going to, cause it's such an
uncommon experience now, whereas I suppose

00:28:37.675 --> 00:28:38.945
it's totally different in your 20s.

00:28:39.355 --> 00:28:41.425
Joe: Anyway, back to your
mandala dance, I want to get

00:28:41.425 --> 00:28:42.165
Sam: to the end of that story.

00:28:42.175 --> 00:28:43.465
No, Ali, that's a very good point.

00:28:43.555 --> 00:28:45.635
And I think Joe, I've
done this to people too.

00:28:45.695 --> 00:28:49.315
The thing you were just describing,
I think I had the sort of parallel

00:28:49.315 --> 00:28:52.105
thought to you, which is I can't.

00:28:52.765 --> 00:28:56.425
Go out to the, to the pub and get
warmed up and then have the DNM.

00:28:56.435 --> 00:28:58.675
Like I just, we've got to cut
to the good bit of the party.

00:28:58.685 --> 00:28:59.255
Remember that?

00:28:59.305 --> 00:29:01.485
Yeah, cut straight to the
part when we're dancing.

00:29:01.765 --> 00:29:05.665
Yeah, but we talked about that very
early on like episode three maybe

00:29:05.975 --> 00:29:13.835
and that I think so trying to trying
to create that space that without

00:29:13.885 --> 00:29:15.335
the drinking and the drugs, right?

00:29:15.375 --> 00:29:18.360
Because and that that's a So, I have a
lot of ambition I've got as well, right?

00:29:18.380 --> 00:29:20.380
And in fact, it's something I've
succeeded in doing, but I think I've

00:29:20.380 --> 00:29:23.810
kind of sprung that on people where
it's like, suddenly it's a DNM, and I

00:29:23.810 --> 00:29:25.740
never plan on it necessarily that way.

00:29:26.250 --> 00:29:28.820
But I've had the same realization
that even with some of my

00:29:29.070 --> 00:29:33.340
arty friends, that they're not
necessarily ready to go to that spot.

00:29:33.430 --> 00:29:36.840
Like, they don't have to be super, you
know, super sporty blokes even to feel...

00:29:37.215 --> 00:29:37.745
A little bit.

00:29:37.785 --> 00:29:41.195
Joe: But that's like, but that's why we're
doing a podcast, Sam, because I hadn't

00:29:41.195 --> 00:29:45.205
seen you in years and then you get in the
car and it's like, by the time we drove

00:29:45.205 --> 00:29:51.385
an hour, we'd done climate change, Putin,
breakups, um, you know, gender relations,

00:29:51.425 --> 00:29:55.365
uh, what it's like being a dad, blah,
blah, blah, and then that conversation

00:29:55.890 --> 00:30:02.300
With you, just never, it started in 2001
and it just basically never stops and it's

00:30:02.300 --> 00:30:05.930
fine, but you don't have a lot of, I've
got plenty of time, I could come around

00:30:05.930 --> 00:30:09.480
here every day and sit out in your shed
at the moment, I'm pretty underemployed

00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:13.630
in the film industry and we could have
intense chats, but, and I wouldn't find

00:30:13.630 --> 00:30:17.840
it tiring, I never really find it tiring
with you because you kind of energise

00:30:17.870 --> 00:30:25.430
me, which I think is the connection part,
but I can't go and, uh, force my way.

00:30:25.805 --> 00:30:26.855
Energy onto someone else.

00:30:26.855 --> 00:30:26.915
Yeah.

00:30:27.905 --> 00:30:28.645
You know, like, well, yes.

00:30:28.745 --> 00:30:33.545
And maybe if they're not neurodivergent,
like maybe that's the neurodivergence,

00:30:33.575 --> 00:30:38.165
like some of these people I'm thinking of
are very well adjusted, calm people too.

00:30:38.170 --> 00:30:38.525
Right.

00:30:38.525 --> 00:30:41.015
And having this large, you know, whereas

00:30:41.015 --> 00:30:43.145
Sam: I'm bipolar adjacent
and you can't, yeah.

00:30:43.265 --> 00:30:45.365
You can do that sort of thing
with me, but not with them.

00:30:45.575 --> 00:30:46.445
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:30:47.405 --> 00:30:47.825
That's it.

00:30:48.095 --> 00:30:49.205
And the, the steady types.

00:30:50.015 --> 00:30:53.205
They're steady either because
they've got certain dispositions

00:30:53.795 --> 00:30:55.305
and they just stay that way.

00:30:56.285 --> 00:30:58.815
Or they work very hard
on keeping it that way.

00:30:58.835 --> 00:30:59.575
Joe: Yeah, they do.

00:30:59.575 --> 00:31:00.835
I think, and they filter things

00:31:00.835 --> 00:31:01.385
Ali: really well.

00:31:01.425 --> 00:31:05.385
Cause, yeah, I think have like, you
find like, you know, you neurodivergent

00:31:05.395 --> 00:31:07.035
friends make neurodivergent friends.

00:31:07.035 --> 00:31:09.655
Like if you're bipolar, you're going
to make a friend with, cause you

00:31:09.655 --> 00:31:12.945
have that shared experience, but it's
also very much the practicalities

00:31:12.955 --> 00:31:14.315
of somebody with bipolar.

00:31:14.675 --> 00:31:16.645
There's a good chance that
person will be up late.

00:31:17.580 --> 00:31:19.680
So, that's the person who's up
late who you're talking to because

00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:20.580
they're not sleeping, right?

00:31:20.740 --> 00:31:24.260
And that was certainly my experience
of, you know, or like, yeah, the

00:31:24.260 --> 00:31:27.050
person who's a bit chaotic and not
necessarily in work, you can contact

00:31:27.050 --> 00:31:31.200
during the day, that's, so it's that
availability plus shared experience.

00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:31.650
But I have

00:31:31.650 --> 00:31:36.630
Joe: the experience, I go on, I go on
first dates and by the end of an hour,

00:31:36.630 --> 00:31:40.640
women have told me like their darkest
secrets and they've told me in detail

00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:42.510
about their marriage breakup and whatever.

00:31:42.935 --> 00:31:43.175
Mm.

00:31:43.235 --> 00:31:45.275
And, and then they say,
I, I dig that stuff.

00:31:45.545 --> 00:31:45.575
Mm.

00:31:45.605 --> 00:31:45.845
Wow.

00:31:45.845 --> 00:31:46.835
You're really great to talk to.

00:31:46.835 --> 00:31:50.105
I don't wanna see you again,
because there's some vulnerability

00:31:50.105 --> 00:31:51.065
that's been opened up.

00:31:51.065 --> 00:31:51.066
Yeah.

00:31:51.125 --> 00:31:51.365
Yeah.

00:31:51.370 --> 00:31:53.585
And maybe they just wanted to
have a roll around in the hay.

00:31:53.645 --> 00:31:53.825
Yeah.

00:31:53.855 --> 00:31:56.645
But I can't turn off this thing
where I'm like curious, like, yeah.

00:31:56.645 --> 00:31:57.785
Tell me about your marriage breakup.

00:31:57.785 --> 00:31:57.905
Sam: No, no.

00:31:57.905 --> 00:31:59.225
Your, your Andrew bloody Denton.

00:31:59.705 --> 00:31:59.825
Yeah.

00:32:00.725 --> 00:32:02.315
Just enough roping these women every time.

00:32:02.455 --> 00:32:02.735
Yeah.

00:32:03.995 --> 00:32:07.535
. And I do, I do the same thing to, to,
to people whether I, whether it's.

00:32:07.900 --> 00:32:10.790
You know, whether I just think they're
interesting or whether it's a friend or

00:32:10.790 --> 00:32:12.420
it's a romantic prospect, I'm the same.

00:32:12.420 --> 00:32:13.230
I just have this instinct.

00:32:13.230 --> 00:32:14.560
I just want to open that can.

00:32:15.110 --> 00:32:15.860
Ali: I'm the same.

00:32:16.060 --> 00:32:16.945
It's just...

00:32:16.945 --> 00:32:17.560
It's

00:32:17.560 --> 00:32:18.370
Sam: pleasurable, right?

00:32:19.090 --> 00:32:19.490
Ali: It is.

00:32:19.550 --> 00:32:20.710
I continually get...

00:32:20.930 --> 00:32:21.130
Yeah.

00:32:21.130 --> 00:32:24.000
Similarly, like to you, Joe, on the
dating apps or the experience has

00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:26.460
been, I feel like I can talk to you.

00:32:26.470 --> 00:32:28.120
Like, like I get, I've had that.

00:32:28.450 --> 00:32:31.120
It could be a trauma thing could
be, I don't know what, I mean,

00:32:31.120 --> 00:32:35.190
whatever, whatever it's rooted in, I
think there is an openness about me.

00:32:35.210 --> 00:32:39.450
And I think as my psychologist
said, there's, I, I'm not judgmental

00:32:39.520 --> 00:32:40.990
to a, to a fault actually.

00:32:40.990 --> 00:32:44.400
And so holding that space
for somebody to just.

00:32:44.885 --> 00:32:49.765
Be able to speak without judgment has,
you know, enables me to have really deep

00:32:49.775 --> 00:32:53.855
and lovely conversations and really rich
experiences because people do feel that

00:32:54.055 --> 00:32:58.755
safe place around me, that they can have
those, because yeah, I'm similarly like

00:32:58.755 --> 00:33:00.465
have that, I'm interested and curious.

00:33:00.695 --> 00:33:01.695
Joe: I don't want to see you again.

00:33:01.705 --> 00:33:05.465
Ali: No, I think, I think, no, it
generally then turns into like, I

00:33:05.475 --> 00:33:08.945
haven't felt this, I haven't, I don't
normally feel like this around somebody.

00:33:09.360 --> 00:33:13.227
I want to then be with you and then it's,
it's all on, as we've had that discussion.

00:33:13.227 --> 00:33:14.260
Partly, that

00:33:14.260 --> 00:33:16.970
Joe: could be a, that could be
a male female thing, or partly,

00:33:16.970 --> 00:33:20.980
you know, maybe men get opened up
and feel vulnerable and tell you

00:33:20.980 --> 00:33:22.360
their darkest secrets and think...

00:33:23.010 --> 00:33:24.060
I've never felt like this.

00:33:24.560 --> 00:33:26.740
Where women open up and tell
you the dark secrets and they're

00:33:26.740 --> 00:33:29.370
like, Now I'm vulnerable, this
person has something over me.

00:33:29.630 --> 00:33:30.920
And is he a little bit dangerous?

00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:32.370
Ali: Yeah, like, yeah, do I feel safe?

00:33:32.370 --> 00:33:32.600
Yeah.

00:33:32.600 --> 00:33:32.924
You know what?

00:33:32.924 --> 00:33:34.220
I am a little bit dangerous.

00:33:34.250 --> 00:33:37.910
Whereas I think perhaps I'm giving them
a safe, like I'm not coming across as any

00:33:37.910 --> 00:33:40.440
sort, like I'm not going to weaponise it.

00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:42.150
No, you're very, there's no
judgement there, so there's no,

00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:44.300
so it's very safe for them to be

00:33:44.300 --> 00:33:44.520
Sam: like that.

00:33:44.520 --> 00:33:46.500
Yeah, even if they weren't
planning on talking about it.

00:33:46.530 --> 00:33:50.250
But somehow when, when the
unplanned divulgence occurs with

00:33:50.250 --> 00:33:51.760
Joe, there's a feeling of like, oh.

00:33:52.805 --> 00:33:55.265
It was good to go there, but I didn't
want to go there, and I don't know

00:33:55.385 --> 00:33:57.755
if I'll be able to have control over
the agenda the next time we meet.

00:33:57.865 --> 00:33:58.645
Yeah, or like, yeah, like,

00:33:59.085 --> 00:34:01.955
Ali: what, what do I,
yeah, do I feel safe?

00:34:01.985 --> 00:34:03.625
What is he going to do
with this information?

00:34:03.625 --> 00:34:06.265
That's, that's, I think, and,
and women having that distrust

00:34:06.265 --> 00:34:07.385
of men, I think, is just general.

00:34:07.385 --> 00:34:09.605
I don't, I'm saying that I don't
have that feeling, Joe, but like,

00:34:09.885 --> 00:34:11.005
which is why we're still friends.

00:34:11.005 --> 00:34:15.465
But I think, whereas, yeah, like, I think
it's, it comes back to feeling safe with

00:34:15.495 --> 00:34:16.925
the information that you're sharing.

00:34:16.925 --> 00:34:17.915
Sam: Well, that, that's exactly right.

00:34:17.935 --> 00:34:18.825
And I think that, that.

00:34:19.115 --> 00:34:23.805
Those people, because as you've always
said Joe, you tend to only, you tend

00:34:23.805 --> 00:34:27.995
to only want to consider relationships
with fairly serious women who are quite

00:34:27.995 --> 00:34:31.145
substantial intellectually or they've
got a decent career or whatever and

00:34:31.305 --> 00:34:37.655
they're pretty on their square for
the most part and you know, that kind

00:34:37.655 --> 00:34:42.149
of area of establishing that empathy
and understanding like other people's

00:34:42.149 --> 00:34:47.849
failures and flaws, well, but it's
a portal through which, you know,

00:34:47.909 --> 00:34:53.724
traffic can flow and that So, that gate
being opened, does anyone remember the

00:34:53.724 --> 00:34:55.404
article about the problem with empathy?

00:34:56.604 --> 00:34:57.354
No.

00:34:57.894 --> 00:35:00.594
Sort of like one of
those long form pieces.

00:35:00.614 --> 00:35:01.444
Yeah, vaguely.

00:35:01.454 --> 00:35:04.834
I did the rounds a few years ago, but
it's based on some reasonably solid

00:35:04.834 --> 00:35:09.194
scholarship as far as I can make out, but
the basic thesis of it is, people that are

00:35:09.924 --> 00:35:14.114
empathic, Whether through their nature or
through their, they've developed, they've

00:35:14.114 --> 00:35:17.974
developed a lot of experience and they're
able to kind of understand a range of

00:35:17.974 --> 00:35:19.504
circumstances people have been through.

00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:22.949
So, the empathy is a
double edged sword, though.

00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:26.629
Because the ability to understand
someone's vulnerabilities

00:35:27.169 --> 00:35:29.499
and to feel their feelings...

00:35:30.029 --> 00:35:32.589
Actually gives you the ability
to bully and manipulate them as

00:35:32.779 --> 00:35:34.499
well as support them and, and...

00:35:34.529 --> 00:35:38.479
Joe: I'm just, my problem is, the
reality is I can't adjust my settings.

00:35:38.819 --> 00:35:39.589
Sam: No, me neither.

00:35:39.629 --> 00:35:42.419
Joe: The one success story
this, in the last year has

00:35:42.419 --> 00:35:44.049
been getting Ali as a friend.

00:35:44.089 --> 00:35:44.309
Yeah.

00:35:44.309 --> 00:35:47.459
And maybe me and Ali have a chance to
stay friends because we never kissed.

00:35:47.609 --> 00:35:47.819
Yeah.

00:35:47.839 --> 00:35:49.329
There's never been anything physical.

00:35:49.529 --> 00:35:49.759
Yeah.

00:35:49.869 --> 00:35:51.329
There's no ambiguity.

00:35:51.539 --> 00:35:51.809
Hmm.

00:35:51.959 --> 00:35:52.879
It's just like...

00:35:53.514 --> 00:35:57.404
I had the same reaction that all the
other men had, which is, wow, Ali is

00:35:57.414 --> 00:36:01.194
so great to talk to, but I took it in
a different direction, and it wasn't,

00:36:01.554 --> 00:36:06.664
actually when we met, when it was going
to be a date, The energy was so unstable

00:36:07.634 --> 00:36:12.764
between us that I was like, this is like,
I could just picture myself driving off

00:36:12.764 --> 00:36:13.767
a cliff, down one of the waterfalls.

00:36:13.767 --> 00:36:14.134
No, it

00:36:14.134 --> 00:36:18.114
Ali: was, it was the same, like, I
just, I, there was something about like,

00:36:18.114 --> 00:36:22.084
this is going to end so badly, I'm not
good, but you were both mutually like,

00:36:22.084 --> 00:36:23.424
no, we're just not going to go there.

00:36:23.424 --> 00:36:24.614
Cause this is, there's something.

00:36:24.829 --> 00:36:25.689
That would be yeah,

00:36:25.949 --> 00:36:26.279
Sam: trouble.

00:36:26.349 --> 00:36:26.819
I love you guys.

00:36:27.549 --> 00:36:28.679
Thank God you worked it all out.

00:36:28.689 --> 00:36:32.129
Ali: I was gonna say it's a very measured
response because I'd say if we had met

00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:35.739
maybe like in our late teens early 20s
when we didn't have the knowledge of

00:36:35.739 --> 00:36:39.429
what that could then look like probably
would have just been like We'd be, steal

00:36:39.429 --> 00:36:42.029
each other's horror stories, sharing,
like, you know, we could have very much

00:36:43.069 --> 00:36:43.374
Joe: been that.

00:36:43.374 --> 00:36:45.069
What's that movie set on the psych ward?

00:36:45.999 --> 00:36:46.899
One Flew Over a Cuckoo's Nest.

00:36:46.899 --> 00:36:49.109
No, no, it's the couple
that gets together.

00:36:49.269 --> 00:36:51.529
Ali: Oh, um, with Katie Holmes.

00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:52.669
Joe: Um, yeah.

00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:53.269
No, no, no, I've got it.

00:36:56.584 --> 00:36:57.404
What's it called?

00:36:57.494 --> 00:36:57.994
Anyway.

00:36:58.164 --> 00:36:58.284
I

00:36:58.284 --> 00:36:59.314
Ali: know exactly what
you're talking about.

00:36:59.314 --> 00:36:59.584
Katie Holmes.

00:36:59.744 --> 00:36:59.964
Yeah,

00:37:00.524 --> 00:37:03.334
Joe: it's not a very good movie,
but it's about two bipolar people

00:37:03.334 --> 00:37:05.684
getting together on the psych ward.

00:37:05.894 --> 00:37:06.654
We'll put the name of it.

00:37:06.654 --> 00:37:06.904
No, we won't.

00:37:07.294 --> 00:37:12.464
Sam: The J Law movie, which is basically
the same movie, two, two bipolar people

00:37:12.464 --> 00:37:13.714
and Jennifer Lawrence is one of them.

00:37:13.714 --> 00:37:13.954
That's the one.

00:37:13.964 --> 00:37:14.204
Oh,

00:37:14.244 --> 00:37:14.514
Ali: That's it.

00:37:15.124 --> 00:37:15.314
That's a great movie.

00:37:15.364 --> 00:37:15.584
That's

00:37:15.784 --> 00:37:16.804
Sam: the better one.

00:37:16.814 --> 00:37:17.064
Yeah.

00:37:17.404 --> 00:37:17.664
Yeah.

00:37:17.854 --> 00:37:20.904
So, so like I was just going
to say, it seems like one of

00:37:20.904 --> 00:37:22.284
the things really important.

00:37:22.874 --> 00:37:26.724
In the conversation so far has been
like the match or mismatch between

00:37:27.364 --> 00:37:30.164
what people need at their particular
point in life, what they're comfortable

00:37:30.164 --> 00:37:33.264
with, whether they can, whether
they can do the sit across the table

00:37:33.264 --> 00:37:37.354
and have the D and M at 12 PM, you
know, midday, not late at night.

00:37:37.604 --> 00:37:39.104
But Sam, what happened with your bromance?

00:37:39.374 --> 00:37:43.114
Well, that's what I was getting back to
because it was, because it was, yeah,

00:37:43.114 --> 00:37:46.216
because it was that situation that,
where there was the ability to talk

00:37:46.216 --> 00:37:49.751
frankly, and there was, and it was quite,
In fact, I think we were fairly rough

00:37:49.751 --> 00:37:55.871
with each other as well, like verbally
and, you know, dished it out a lot and,

00:37:55.891 --> 00:37:59.611
which was really good because we both
needed it, like the stick was needed.

00:37:59.681 --> 00:38:00.041
Like,

00:38:00.271 --> 00:38:02.561
Ali: I think that's similarly
Joe and I are like that with each

00:38:02.561 --> 00:38:04.671
other, like we can be brutal.

00:38:04.801 --> 00:38:05.091
Yeah.

00:38:05.091 --> 00:38:06.401
And you need, but we both need it.

00:38:06.401 --> 00:38:06.481
I

00:38:06.511 --> 00:38:06.791
Sam: think.

00:38:06.831 --> 00:38:07.201
Got it.

00:38:07.201 --> 00:38:07.691
Got to have it.

00:38:07.691 --> 00:38:10.301
And like, he's always one of the
few people and he's still in my

00:38:10.301 --> 00:38:16.961
life and we like the opportunity to
like, have that like high frequency.

00:38:17.261 --> 00:38:21.751
High bandwidth type relationship like in
the early 20s or even in the late 20s and

00:38:21.751 --> 00:38:27.521
then another go in the 30s That it's not
really in place now for either of us But

00:38:27.551 --> 00:38:32.381
I I just know that I could probably still
get that same bluntness from him and I

00:38:32.381 --> 00:38:38.291
would value that But the first time we we
never had a we can't be friends anymore.

00:38:38.381 --> 00:38:39.151
It wasn't like that.

00:38:39.541 --> 00:38:44.751
It was a It was a drifting apart and
more of a ghosting maybe on one side

00:38:44.841 --> 00:38:48.001
and then that kind of hurt Because
like, we weren't living, we weren't

00:38:48.001 --> 00:38:52.341
sharing a house anymore, and maybe we
both had girlfriends, can't remember.

00:38:52.541 --> 00:38:55.841
But like, that always, that
always felt like a thing that

00:38:55.841 --> 00:38:57.331
would get in the way as well.

00:38:57.361 --> 00:39:01.444
Like, I remember he said to me one
day, You have this habit of putting

00:39:01.444 --> 00:39:04.704
women off me and I'm like, man,
I'm not trying to do it on purpose.

00:39:04.904 --> 00:39:06.134
Like I promise.

00:39:06.424 --> 00:39:09.684
Ali: So it's, perhaps it was like a
romance between you and him over the

00:39:09.684 --> 00:39:13.714
years and that when women moved into
that space, there was no space, like you

00:39:13.714 --> 00:39:16.044
couldn't share that romance and romance.

00:39:16.274 --> 00:39:16.664
Exactly.

00:39:16.684 --> 00:39:19.708
Sam: And so it was like an
emotional intimacy that neither

00:39:19.708 --> 00:39:23.558
of us could either do at the
same time as having a girlfriend.

00:39:23.853 --> 00:39:27.633
Or, it just was a question of not having
the time and then you got the jobs.

00:39:27.633 --> 00:39:30.273
One of the friends I've had to let
go of got ghosted and that hurt,

00:39:30.333 --> 00:39:32.753
but now when it happens, I'm like,
no, that's just how he rolls.

00:39:32.803 --> 00:39:33.013
Yeah.

00:39:33.063 --> 00:39:33.913
And I'm fine with it.

00:39:34.123 --> 00:39:34.613
Yeah.

00:39:34.703 --> 00:39:35.033
Joe: Yeah.

00:39:35.363 --> 00:39:39.203
One of the ones that I had to let go
of was, yeah, similar, we'd say rough

00:39:39.213 --> 00:39:43.591
things to each other, but, when it just
started to have a cruel edge to it.

00:39:43.631 --> 00:39:43.811
Yeah.

00:39:43.831 --> 00:39:44.271
Yes.

00:39:44.371 --> 00:39:47.451
I remember one thing he said to
me was, oh, you always have to

00:39:47.451 --> 00:39:48.781
feel like you're special at work.

00:39:49.901 --> 00:39:51.371
And I was like, yeah, that's insightful.

00:39:51.371 --> 00:39:55.163
Like I'm used to these criticisms and then
it just stayed with me and I'm like, oh,

00:39:55.163 --> 00:39:59.924
that kind of fucking pisses me off and
hurts me and, and then things started to

00:39:59.924 --> 00:40:02.114
go a bit that way where what was once,

00:40:02.374 --> 00:40:03.324
Sam: um, insightful,

00:40:03.584 --> 00:40:06.724
Joe: penetrating, rough love
was much, became more bitter.

00:40:06.924 --> 00:40:07.164
Yeah.

00:40:07.164 --> 00:40:10.234
Ali: And it's, it's hurtful and there's
a mean, there's a meanness behind it.

00:40:10.234 --> 00:40:10.514
There's a meanness

00:40:11.474 --> 00:40:11.724
Sam: to stick the knife.

00:40:15.454 --> 00:40:16.024
Exactly.

00:40:16.024 --> 00:40:16.084
Yeah.

00:40:16.144 --> 00:40:16.534
I remember

00:40:16.534 --> 00:40:19.114
Joe: one time that same person
said to me, oh, you need to be on

00:40:19.114 --> 00:40:20.494
six figures to live in Melbourne.

00:40:21.034 --> 00:40:24.334
And I thought, yeah, that's easy
to say when you're on six figures.

00:40:24.574 --> 00:40:29.634
But from where I'm standing with
my career, like, like there was

00:40:29.634 --> 00:40:31.854
a level of privilege to that
and that's what I'm saying.

00:40:31.854 --> 00:40:33.774
And then I judged him and then I thought,

00:40:34.284 --> 00:40:34.854
Sam: fuck this guy.

00:40:34.854 --> 00:40:35.034
Like,

00:40:36.104 --> 00:40:38.722
Joe: like, alright, you're in a
position, in your forties to be

00:40:38.722 --> 00:40:41.512
making whatever you're making over
a hundred thousand dollars a year.

00:40:41.666 --> 00:40:44.476
But you can't turn around and say,
everyone else needs to do that.

00:40:44.836 --> 00:40:48.376
Like, what about some understanding of
how hard that is for a lot of people?

00:40:48.766 --> 00:40:53.246
But again, what he said isn't a
hanging offence, and it's maybe

00:40:53.246 --> 00:40:55.756
kinda true, you need six figures
to have a good life in Melbourne.

00:40:56.406 --> 00:41:01.436
But, my reaction was like,
jeez, I'm really pissed off

00:41:01.446 --> 00:41:02.446
about this, and it's like...

00:41:02.881 --> 00:41:06.271
That's when I realized I've
got to let this person go.

00:41:06.271 --> 00:41:08.811
Sam: So it seems like the way
this stuff is landing is, yeah,

00:41:09.811 --> 00:41:09.941
Ali: it's the

00:41:10.931 --> 00:41:13.891
Joe: same stuff that he would have always
said, but it just hit me differently.

00:41:14.041 --> 00:41:16.491
Ali: Because the thing is when you
grow and change, and that's fine if we

00:41:16.491 --> 00:41:17.981
acknowledge and accept that that's okay.

00:41:17.981 --> 00:41:21.361
What's happened is that it sounds
like there's a, you've grown and

00:41:21.361 --> 00:41:24.751
your values have changed because
fundamentally, if he's saying that.

00:41:25.066 --> 00:41:26.276
Yeah, you have to have six feet.

00:41:26.306 --> 00:41:29.286
It doesn't sit right with you and
that sort of feels like an attack

00:41:29.286 --> 00:41:32.066
on your values and similarly I think

00:41:32.336 --> 00:41:35.436
Joe: what happened a little bit too
is that I slipped down the privilege

00:41:36.201 --> 00:41:39.081
Change a little bit, whereas when
we were in our 20s, we were equally

00:41:39.091 --> 00:41:41.811
privileged, educated, straight white guys.

00:41:42.251 --> 00:41:46.331
But, like, a lot of my friends have now
gone on a curve in their 40s where they

00:41:46.331 --> 00:41:48.881
are up over a hundred grand a year and
they're doing quite well and they're

00:41:48.881 --> 00:41:50.711
managers and I'm not on that curve.

00:41:50.891 --> 00:41:55.281
So I'm falling down the scale
of privilege, class wise.

00:41:56.261 --> 00:42:01.461
And so, I think it's important when you're
doing that to maybe let go of some people.

00:42:01.936 --> 00:42:03.136
You can't relate to them anymore.

00:42:03.526 --> 00:42:06.886
Ali: I think there's one other friendship
I've had, and it was like you, like a,

00:42:07.206 --> 00:42:10.846
from childhood, like knew each other as
little kids, we were mates throughout

00:42:10.866 --> 00:42:14.096
high school, uni, like for years and
years and years, and I would have

00:42:14.236 --> 00:42:15.906
always considered a really close friend.

00:42:17.536 --> 00:42:19.706
Given that I then had a baby quite young.

00:42:19.976 --> 00:42:23.366
And my experience of, you know, being at
home and not necessarily working in great

00:42:23.496 --> 00:42:23.646
Sam: jobs.

00:42:23.646 --> 00:42:25.096
And that's also a space where
you're going to get judged

00:42:25.106 --> 00:42:25.586
Ali: by a lot of people.

00:42:25.596 --> 00:42:25.746
Yes.

00:42:26.086 --> 00:42:28.636
And she's had a completely
different trajectory.

00:42:28.646 --> 00:42:29.696
Sam: It's all gone according to plan,

00:42:29.696 --> 00:42:30.246
Ali: has it Ali?

00:42:30.246 --> 00:42:33.446
No, no, as in like, she hasn't
had kids and she's had this wildly

00:42:33.476 --> 00:42:35.486
successful career, travels the world.

00:42:35.716 --> 00:42:38.896
And there's like, it's not like genuine
love and support for what she's been able

00:42:38.906 --> 00:42:40.516
to achieve, incredibly talented woman.

00:42:40.946 --> 00:42:43.856
But over the last few years,
yeah, like there is a huge

00:42:43.856 --> 00:42:45.626
wealth discrepancy and like.

00:42:45.911 --> 00:42:47.881
And a huge lifestyle discrepancy.

00:42:47.901 --> 00:42:53.021
And our ability to then come back together
and connect the last few times has

00:42:53.051 --> 00:42:56.201
been very much, has felt a bit forced.

00:42:56.521 --> 00:43:00.131
And like, and I think perhaps we've
just grown and changed too much in

00:43:00.131 --> 00:43:03.791
our experiences are just so different
that there's, even though we have that

00:43:03.791 --> 00:43:07.241
common history and shared history,
it's not the same as it is now.

00:43:07.241 --> 00:43:10.441
And that's why that friendship has
sort of, yeah, like there's been a

00:43:10.441 --> 00:43:14.881
bit of like me reaching out and not
hearing back and things like that.

00:43:14.881 --> 00:43:18.356
And And feeling a bit hurt by that,
but then also actually accepting,

00:43:18.356 --> 00:43:22.266
okay, this, I'm just not a part of
her circle in her life anymore, and

00:43:22.556 --> 00:43:25.886
that's okay, and like, yeah, we've
had a great 30 years, like, like, this

00:43:25.886 --> 00:43:30.316
is a very long time, but also, maybe
it's, it's not for the next 30 years.

00:43:30.316 --> 00:43:31.926
Joe: Sounds like one's let go of Ali.

00:43:32.026 --> 00:43:33.016
I think we should wrap it up.

00:43:33.655 --> 00:43:38.005
but yeah, look, the, the super
positive spin I'll put on it is this.

00:43:38.293 --> 00:43:41.633
I actually have a lot of
acceptance at the moment for my

00:43:41.633 --> 00:43:43.673
life being exactly the way it is.

00:43:45.328 --> 00:43:46.388
So that's one thing.

00:43:46.388 --> 00:43:49.788
So someone else that's a friend that's
being more successful financially

00:43:49.838 --> 00:43:51.888
doesn't bother me really at all.

00:43:52.010 --> 00:43:56.118
but I can let go of that person if I'm
judging them on what they're saying.

00:43:56.638 --> 00:44:01.008
And the other thing I'll say that I
didn't realise is, this sounds a bit

00:44:01.008 --> 00:44:03.748
hippy, but when I let go of people...

00:44:04.288 --> 00:44:10.498
I create space, and into that space,
new things can come, come new friends,

00:44:11.158 --> 00:44:14.688
whereas I always had a scarcity
mentality of like, the moment I let

00:44:15.098 --> 00:44:19.948
go of a friend, I'm an only child, so
my friends have always been like my

00:44:19.948 --> 00:44:24.518
family, like, I've always had that, and
I've always been really good socially.

00:44:25.108 --> 00:44:26.218
At making friends.

00:44:26.368 --> 00:44:26.578
Yeah.

00:44:26.668 --> 00:44:31.228
Um, but I've realized, oh, actually
it's a bit about editing now.

00:44:31.378 --> 00:44:31.738
Yes.

00:44:31.798 --> 00:44:35.578
And getting down to just friends
that are a positive, you know,

00:44:35.728 --> 00:44:37.018
positive influence in your life.

00:44:37.018 --> 00:44:39.628
And, you know, I'm a very needy person.

00:44:39.633 --> 00:44:40.948
I'm a very needy texter.

00:44:41.248 --> 00:44:41.428
Yeah.

00:44:41.578 --> 00:44:42.388
Sometimes.

00:44:42.388 --> 00:44:42.688
Yeah.

00:44:43.258 --> 00:44:44.608
I'll go through my WhatsApp.

00:44:44.938 --> 00:44:45.028
Yeah.

00:44:45.028 --> 00:44:47.698
And there'll be people that I'm
texting, say 20 different people.

00:44:47.908 --> 00:44:48.088
Yeah.

00:44:48.088 --> 00:44:50.938
And I'll literally delete
every single thread.

00:44:51.148 --> 00:44:51.238
Mm-hmm.

00:44:51.478 --> 00:44:51.988
. And I'll just wait.

00:44:52.613 --> 00:44:57.633
And see who comes back in to just
to, because I've had to learn system

00:44:57.643 --> 00:45:01.323
self knowledge that I need to give
people the break because I can't

00:45:01.823 --> 00:45:03.703
be telling people my every thought.

00:45:04.303 --> 00:45:05.643
That's not being a good friend.

00:45:05.643 --> 00:45:06.593
That's just being a pest.

00:45:06.673 --> 00:45:08.893
And the only person I can
actually do that with is Ali.

00:45:09.653 --> 00:45:11.243
But even with Ali, it's fine.

00:45:11.543 --> 00:45:13.813
If I send her a message, just
look at it for four hours,

00:45:13.813 --> 00:45:15.433
I accept, I can accept that.

00:45:15.433 --> 00:45:19.173
But the one difference with Ali is
I'm not going to feel judged and she's

00:45:19.183 --> 00:45:21.963
not going to turn around and be like,
mate, you're messaging me too much.

00:45:22.778 --> 00:45:30.938
Everyone else, who's not bipolar,
there's a hint of it being a burden,

00:45:31.008 --> 00:45:32.558
or the possibility of it being a

00:45:32.558 --> 00:45:32.858
Ali: burden.

00:45:32.868 --> 00:45:35.918
Yeah, see, whereas I don't see it as a,
if I don't have the capacity to get back

00:45:35.928 --> 00:45:39.518
to you in that moment because I'm at work
or whatever, or I'm doing something, I

00:45:39.518 --> 00:45:41.238
know I'll get back to you when I can.

00:45:41.548 --> 00:45:44.968
And like, I don't feel like, yeah, like
just because you text me a lot or, I

00:45:44.978 --> 00:45:46.488
mean, because I also text a lot too.

00:45:46.488 --> 00:45:49.268
So, It's, yeah, I just feel
like, yeah, I don't feel like

00:45:49.268 --> 00:45:50.458
there's a neediness behind there.

00:45:50.458 --> 00:45:51.878
It's just like, yeah.

00:45:51.958 --> 00:45:52.148
But it's

00:45:52.208 --> 00:45:55.308
Joe: a good exercise because I clear
the decks and then I see who comes

00:45:55.308 --> 00:46:00.368
back in and then it's a reaffirming of,
all right, that person wants to be in

00:46:00.368 --> 00:46:04.538
communication with me today and everyone
else, I need to just give them a break.

00:46:04.618 --> 00:46:06.648
Sam: I just want to say, I've never,
I feel like I've never understood

00:46:06.648 --> 00:46:09.678
the rules of texting and maybe I
never will, but I feel like I'm

00:46:09.678 --> 00:46:13.508
starting to get more of a grip on it
recently, but, and I've also started

00:46:13.508 --> 00:46:15.328
to impose rules around it for myself.

00:46:15.338 --> 00:46:15.888
So that's good.

00:46:18.228 --> 00:46:21.228
Yeah, so I feel I'm going to do this
thing that I often do, which I don't

00:46:21.248 --> 00:46:26.338
get vulnerable until you know, the
door's about to roll down and I've

00:46:26.338 --> 00:46:27.778
got to grab my hat from underneath.

00:46:27.837 --> 00:46:29.825
Joe declares the session to be over.

00:46:30.089 --> 00:46:31.409
And I just learned recently.

00:46:31.899 --> 00:46:36.849
One of the origins of the castration
anxiety idea in Freud was like the end

00:46:36.849 --> 00:46:41.085
of the session and the patient would
always feel that they were just about to

00:46:41.415 --> 00:46:45.365
have the breakthrough, but they wouldn't
feel that until the announcement was

00:46:45.365 --> 00:46:47.345
coming that the time is running out.

00:46:47.473 --> 00:46:50.043
And so there's something about that that
I just wanted to just park it there.

00:46:50.043 --> 00:46:51.463
I think you guys would appreciate that.

00:46:51.693 --> 00:46:54.773
But when the podcast is about to end, I'm
like, damn, I've got all these thoughts.

00:46:54.823 --> 00:46:57.133
Now I have to say the thing that, so.

00:46:57.598 --> 00:47:00.898
What you said earlier, two things
I wanted to pick up on, you're not

00:47:00.898 --> 00:47:03.628
moving on because you're better.

00:47:03.968 --> 00:47:07.588
I think that's very important, I
100% agree with that, I've done that.

00:47:07.588 --> 00:47:08.548
Yeah, there's too much ego in that.

00:47:08.648 --> 00:47:10.248
There's too much ego, it's poisonous.

00:47:11.218 --> 00:47:12.438
Joe: And that's the American style.

00:47:12.468 --> 00:47:13.008
It's false.

00:47:13.128 --> 00:47:16.008
American, you can jump on Instagram and
they'll say, you gotta leave friends

00:47:16.008 --> 00:47:17.508
behind, cause you're outgrowing them.

00:47:17.508 --> 00:47:18.378
And it's like, fuck

00:47:18.738 --> 00:47:18.758
you.

00:47:18.758 --> 00:47:18.878
I

00:47:18.878 --> 00:47:19.478
Sam: read, I read

00:47:19.478 --> 00:47:22.338
Joe: that and I'm like, I don't know
if I'm heading in the right direction.

00:47:22.338 --> 00:47:23.368
I have no idea.

00:47:23.428 --> 00:47:27.038
Sam: That has, that sentiment has
resonated with me at times and then

00:47:27.068 --> 00:47:30.038
other times it's struck me as very...

00:47:31.288 --> 00:47:32.458
It's sociopathic almost.

00:47:32.948 --> 00:47:35.578
Ali: The only time I think it's
appropriate is like when that other

00:47:35.578 --> 00:47:38.808
person has been so mean and hurtful
and you don't deserve that treatment.

00:47:38.858 --> 00:47:39.718
And that's different.

00:47:39.738 --> 00:47:42.598
But whereas, but yeah, like just
cutting the dead weight just for the

00:47:42.598 --> 00:47:43.718
sake of it because you deserve better.

00:47:43.758 --> 00:47:44.788
That's just bullshit.

00:47:44.928 --> 00:47:45.800
Like you're not any better than them.

00:47:45.800 --> 00:47:45.874
I've

00:47:45.874 --> 00:47:48.098
Sam: got better yoga pants
than these schmoes now.

00:47:48.098 --> 00:47:48.968
I'm ready to move on.

00:47:48.978 --> 00:47:50.878
It's like, I think that is
how some people look at it.

00:47:51.563 --> 00:47:52.923
They're friends as they're accessories

00:47:52.923 --> 00:47:53.423
Ali: in their life.

00:47:53.583 --> 00:47:54.923
Because they're a
reflection of their success.

00:47:54.923 --> 00:47:55.263
It's a very narcissistic sort

00:47:55.263 --> 00:47:55.503
Sam: of view of it.

00:47:55.633 --> 00:47:57.753
The whole of Sydney is like that.

00:47:59.383 --> 00:48:02.053
Ali: We might have some Sydney
viewers who take a dim view of it.

00:48:02.093 --> 00:48:06.043
Sam: No, but I think Sydney has that
reputation, certainly, and St Kilda

00:48:06.063 --> 00:48:08.113
being our little Sydney in Melbourne.

00:48:08.123 --> 00:48:10.113
There is a bit of that vibe sometimes.

00:48:10.113 --> 00:48:10.963
Yeah, definitely

00:48:11.153 --> 00:48:11.943
Joe: yoga pants.

00:48:12.593 --> 00:48:14.393
Definitely if the yoga
pants aren't up to scratch,

00:48:14.463 --> 00:48:15.503
Sam: I'm moving on.

00:48:15.573 --> 00:48:16.163
100%.

00:48:16.193 --> 00:48:19.003
But do you know what one of my
St Kilda type friends said to me?

00:48:19.233 --> 00:48:20.473
Because he was born and bred there.

00:48:20.958 --> 00:48:21.948
And he's a gay hairdresser.

00:48:21.948 --> 00:48:23.668
It doesn't get much
more St Kilda than that.

00:48:23.838 --> 00:48:26.498
Um, although he has had the
right wing turn recently.

00:48:26.898 --> 00:48:33.108
But he put it to me like this one day, he
said, like, But I was at like a gallery,

00:48:33.488 --> 00:48:37.058
and I was like, trying to talk about the
art, and then I just realised this person

00:48:37.058 --> 00:48:40.018
was just like, judging me as like a...

00:48:40.488 --> 00:48:43.488
As a Southsider and like I didn't know
what I was talking about and like I

00:48:43.488 --> 00:48:48.308
just suddenly just like oh intellectual
snobbery that's a thing yeah and then

00:48:48.308 --> 00:48:51.238
I was like yeah yeah yeah you for
sure that happened to you but but

00:48:51.238 --> 00:48:54.873
I was like but you gotta understand
When I go Southside, I feel that same

00:48:54.873 --> 00:48:58.613
thing coming back at me, but about
appearance, and like, tan, and like,

00:48:58.643 --> 00:48:59.953
the clothing I'm wearing, or whatever.

00:49:00.563 --> 00:49:01.703
Joe: Don't ever go to Sydney, Sam.

00:49:01.833 --> 00:49:02.673
You'll be traumatised.

00:49:02.703 --> 00:49:06.583
Sam: Oh no, I've been a few times, and I,
I enjoy feeling like a complete and utter

00:49:06.653 --> 00:49:08.693
alien, and then I'm like, then I'm done.

00:49:08.703 --> 00:49:09.983
Like, I'm ready to go.

00:49:10.403 --> 00:49:10.613
But

00:49:11.243 --> 00:49:12.423
Joe: you're about to get vulnerable, Sam.

00:49:12.763 --> 00:49:13.083
You've been

00:49:13.353 --> 00:49:13.363
Sam: cyphering.

00:49:13.373 --> 00:49:15.503
Well, I'm getting there,
because, because I've...

00:49:15.768 --> 00:49:19.238
I don't think I've been keeping
friends as accessories and like,

00:49:19.258 --> 00:49:22.368
egotistically thinking of, I've
outgrown you, but if I had to be

00:49:22.368 --> 00:49:24.418
honest, I have felt that way at times.

00:49:24.652 --> 00:49:29.442
The evil twin of that feeling is, if
you're capable, put it this way, if

00:49:29.442 --> 00:49:33.242
you're capable of looking at another
person that you've had intimacy and

00:49:33.602 --> 00:49:36.982
mutual support with and then gone,
I'm better than you and I can move on.

00:49:37.302 --> 00:49:39.312
The evil twin to that is.

00:49:39.566 --> 00:49:41.816
Walking around imagining you're
worse than people and they're

00:49:41.816 --> 00:49:42.936
looking at you that way.

00:49:43.366 --> 00:49:48.346
And so just for your own sake, for my
own sake, any feelings of superiority

00:49:48.346 --> 00:49:53.906
in this matter, get those out of there
because what's really happening is that

00:49:54.046 --> 00:49:59.356
maybe you've had a piece of progress
in one area and you really do need to

00:49:59.356 --> 00:50:02.546
not have that friendship there because
it's clouding something you need to do.

00:50:03.026 --> 00:50:04.066
Okay, that's fine.

00:50:04.136 --> 00:50:07.336
Or maybe you and that buddy drink too much
when you get together or whatever it is.

00:50:07.508 --> 00:50:11.038
But that doesn't mean you've got
anything else at all figured out.

00:50:11.078 --> 00:50:14.218
And I think that's tripped me
up a few times, Joe, so that

00:50:14.218 --> 00:50:15.298
kind of resonated with me.

00:50:15.968 --> 00:50:17.038
So that was the first thing.

00:50:17.357 --> 00:50:21.987
And the other one is, as a kid that
got sent to boarding school at six, I

00:50:21.997 --> 00:50:27.557
didn't, uh, well, you know, you had to
make your friends your family, right?

00:50:28.777 --> 00:50:32.347
And you had to really, I had to
really learn to make do with what was

00:50:32.447 --> 00:50:34.207
around, you know, and who was around.

00:50:36.002 --> 00:50:41.652
And, so, friends became
important at a young age, right?

00:50:42.942 --> 00:50:49.032
So it was a very big puzzle to me in
my 20s and 30s, but like you, easy to

00:50:49.042 --> 00:50:55.222
meet people, and easy to even take it to
the next stage and the one after that.

00:50:55.252 --> 00:51:00.882
But then, yeah, I would start hoarding
friends at times, and then at other

00:51:00.882 --> 00:51:02.882
times, like, doing nothing with them.

00:51:03.822 --> 00:51:07.812
Any of them, like not reaching out,
not taking the initiative, not asking

00:51:08.332 --> 00:51:10.022
for things, not asking to hang out.

00:51:10.102 --> 00:51:14.562
Like in theory, having a lot of people
I could count as friends, but not

00:51:14.642 --> 00:51:18.702
actually feeling like I could reach
out to any of them for anything.

00:51:18.712 --> 00:51:21.722
Ali: That's a very common sort of
experience of depression, which

00:51:21.722 --> 00:51:23.252
I've certainly experienced in that.

00:51:23.282 --> 00:51:23.472
Yeah.

00:51:23.472 --> 00:51:26.372
You objectively, you could say,
yeah, you have all these friends,

00:51:26.372 --> 00:51:28.982
but the fact you don't feel like
you could, you don't want to.

00:51:29.572 --> 00:51:32.652
Impose upon them in any way and you feel
actually incredibly lonely and you're

00:51:32.652 --> 00:51:33.972
like, I would never reach out to that.

00:51:34.002 --> 00:51:37.152
I would never reach out, even though
you probably could, but you just don't

00:51:37.252 --> 00:51:38.712
feel like you can in that moment.

00:51:38.712 --> 00:51:38.802
I

00:51:38.802 --> 00:51:42.012
Joe: was comfortable to ask
to move my house and I felt

00:51:42.052 --> 00:51:43.162
awkward about all of them.

00:51:43.532 --> 00:51:44.402
I felt privileged.

00:51:44.842 --> 00:51:48.102
Uh, and maybe there was
probably could extend that list

00:51:48.102 --> 00:51:49.412
a bit, but it's a good test.

00:51:49.472 --> 00:51:50.002
Yes, it is.

00:51:50.032 --> 00:51:53.052
My friend Eric from Alabama
says we find out who our

00:51:53.052 --> 00:51:54.632
friends are when we move house.

00:51:54.682 --> 00:51:55.282
Yeah, yeah.

00:51:55.312 --> 00:51:55.672
You know.

00:51:55.852 --> 00:51:56.102
Love that guy.

00:51:56.102 --> 00:51:59.332
But what's interesting is I tried to
try out some rules, because I like

00:51:59.332 --> 00:52:00.592
rules, at the start of the show.

00:52:00.662 --> 00:52:00.992
Yeah.

00:52:01.292 --> 00:52:03.882
And one of them was just don't
text or call people, they've got

00:52:03.882 --> 00:52:04.642
your number, see what happens.

00:52:05.342 --> 00:52:09.742
The only asterisk, and you put an asterisk
on it, and the only, the exception

00:52:09.742 --> 00:52:13.812
that proves that rule is you, because
I would never have seen you again.

00:52:14.582 --> 00:52:16.552
I don't think you were ever
going to text or call me.

00:52:17.022 --> 00:52:21.002
And that's not because you're a bad
person or don't like me, it's just you.

00:52:21.092 --> 00:52:24.232
Sam: Thought about doing it many
times, with you in particular,

00:52:24.692 --> 00:52:28.377
so you're on a list of, like it's
not a long list of people that I

00:52:28.387 --> 00:52:30.567
thought about contacting many times.

00:52:31.447 --> 00:52:32.827
And didn't do it.

00:52:32.987 --> 00:52:33.247
Ali: Yeah.

00:52:33.727 --> 00:52:37.377
I've let friendships or potential
friendships go because of that

00:52:37.377 --> 00:52:39.857
sort of, oh, I really like
hanging out with this person.

00:52:39.857 --> 00:52:42.277
I really enjoy their company
or I really want to reach out,

00:52:42.497 --> 00:52:45.697
but for whatever reason, I just
haven't been able to, to do that.

00:52:45.697 --> 00:52:47.457
And so it's sort of fallen by the wayside.

00:52:47.647 --> 00:52:48.957
I've certainly had that experience.

00:52:50.207 --> 00:52:53.167
And I think it coincides with
various times in my life where

00:52:53.167 --> 00:52:54.317
I've had poor mental health.

00:52:54.317 --> 00:52:57.727
And yeah, but it's, um, yeah,
definitely can relate to that.

00:52:57.797 --> 00:52:58.027
Yeah.

00:52:58.027 --> 00:52:58.237
And then,

00:52:58.387 --> 00:52:58.867
Sam: yeah, that's right.

00:52:58.867 --> 00:53:02.307
And other, like, just this curious
feeling of like, it's so hard to

00:53:02.727 --> 00:53:07.007
put into words, Oh, I'm feeling bad.

00:53:07.682 --> 00:53:11.752
I don't need to, you know, I don't
want to bring anyone else down.

00:53:11.892 --> 00:53:13.752
But then other times it's
like, Oh, everything's good.

00:53:13.862 --> 00:53:14.742
I don't need anybody.

00:53:15.092 --> 00:53:18.062
So it's kind of like in
fair weather or foul.

00:53:18.162 --> 00:53:20.122
It's like the tendency to
reach out is just not there.

00:53:20.152 --> 00:53:20.912
See, I have the opposite.

00:53:20.912 --> 00:53:26.992
Joe: I have to delete people's number
because I will try three or four times

00:53:27.252 --> 00:53:29.842
to catch up with them for a coffee
if I really like them as a friend.

00:53:29.842 --> 00:53:30.772
This is male friends.

00:53:31.842 --> 00:53:32.982
And I've done it.

00:53:33.112 --> 00:53:35.462
I mean, I've deleted a million
girls numbers, but this time

00:53:35.462 --> 00:53:38.062
it's like, I need to delete this
person's number because I can't.

00:53:38.802 --> 00:53:39.502
Leave them alone.

00:53:39.832 --> 00:53:42.202
Like, I remember one of
my friend's father died.

00:53:42.202 --> 00:53:44.862
I reached out to him like, I
know what that's like, mate.

00:53:44.892 --> 00:53:45.742
Do you want to get a coffee?

00:53:46.572 --> 00:53:47.952
Ghost, you know, no reply.

00:53:48.592 --> 00:53:51.602
And then you reach out three months
later about going to the footy, no reply.

00:53:51.602 --> 00:53:53.652
And it's like, just stop.

00:53:53.772 --> 00:53:55.022
Sam: So, you're offering different things.

00:53:55.052 --> 00:53:55.932
Just stop.

00:53:56.262 --> 00:53:57.532
Joe: But I lack...

00:53:57.862 --> 00:54:03.222
Impulse control, especially when I'm
lonely, so even with male friends, this

00:54:03.222 --> 00:54:07.432
is a new level for me, now I'm deleting
their numbers, and most of them could

00:54:07.432 --> 00:54:12.802
probably, well, all of them have my
number, so it's actually fine, and it

00:54:12.802 --> 00:54:15.402
might be a bit awkward if they texted
you out of the blue, you'd be like,

00:54:15.402 --> 00:54:17.932
oh, who is this, because everyone knows
you don't lose numbers anymore, so

00:54:17.932 --> 00:54:21.862
they know you've deleted their number.

00:54:21.912 --> 00:54:21.942
But

00:54:21.992 --> 00:54:24.722
Sam: you can say, sorry,
I delete numbers a lot.

00:54:25.192 --> 00:54:28.642
If I'm pestering people, so you
might be one of those people,

00:54:28.642 --> 00:54:28.962
Joe: you can just be honest.

00:54:28.962 --> 00:54:33.402
I would recommend, this is my last
thing I'll say in this episode, I have

00:54:33.402 --> 00:54:36.727
done a few times A phone contact audit.

00:54:36.807 --> 00:54:37.137
Yeah.

00:54:37.417 --> 00:54:40.797
And I've gone through every contact
in my phone and deleted anyone that

00:54:40.797 --> 00:54:42.047
I'm not going to contact again.

00:54:42.297 --> 00:54:42.857
Oh God, I should

00:54:42.857 --> 00:54:43.307
Ali: do that.

00:54:43.317 --> 00:54:43.347
And

00:54:47.677 --> 00:54:48.147
Joe: it's so, cathartic.

00:54:48.147 --> 00:54:48.347
Sam: Throw that

00:54:48.577 --> 00:54:51.207
Ali: black book over the Hinge
Brothers and the Tinder Brothers

00:54:51.207 --> 00:54:52.227
and the Bumble Brothers.

00:54:53.037 --> 00:54:53.397
Oh yeah.

00:54:53.667 --> 00:54:54.257
Sam: There's a good band name.

00:54:54.277 --> 00:54:54.497
Yeah.

00:54:55.007 --> 00:54:56.057
Joe: I mean, yeah, sure.

00:54:56.127 --> 00:54:58.517
But like, yeah, those for sure.

00:54:58.577 --> 00:54:59.527
But also just.

00:54:59.977 --> 00:55:03.287
That person you worked with 15 years
ago, just get rid of it because

00:55:03.287 --> 00:55:04.967
it'll clear up a bit of bandwidth.

00:55:04.967 --> 00:55:08.637
You'd be surprised how cathartic
it is to be like, Oh, that

00:55:08.637 --> 00:55:09.677
person's gone from my life.

00:55:09.717 --> 00:55:11.447
Sam: Do you know what I like
about a lot of what you just said?

00:55:11.847 --> 00:55:14.567
I think there's an increasing
alignment in the way you.

00:55:14.987 --> 00:55:20.417
Think about friends and romantic
relationships, the kind of highly

00:55:20.437 --> 00:55:22.937
separate male female thinking
that you've had over the years.

00:55:22.967 --> 00:55:26.437
I think that's going away slowly,
and I think you're realizing that

00:55:26.467 --> 00:55:27.877
it's the same dynamics in both cases.

00:55:27.877 --> 00:55:29.737
A lot of the same needs, a
lot of the same dysfunctions.

00:55:29.737 --> 00:55:32.617
You're de gendering all
this, which is good.

00:55:32.707 --> 00:55:32.977
Joe: Yeah.

00:55:33.737 --> 00:55:38.207
A friend of mine has advised me to expand
the category of dating out to connection.

00:55:38.257 --> 00:55:38.757
That's right.

00:55:38.787 --> 00:55:41.967
And that can be connection around
addiction recovery, connection

00:55:42.357 --> 00:55:44.167
around sport, connection around...

00:55:44.517 --> 00:55:48.987
Whatever, it can be friends, family,
and it includes, it's a category

00:55:48.987 --> 00:55:50.777
that includes dating and sex.

00:55:50.827 --> 00:55:51.057
Yeah.

00:55:51.367 --> 00:55:54.527
Whereas I've always had a discrete
category which is just dating and sex.

00:55:54.537 --> 00:55:54.887
Mm.

00:55:55.177 --> 00:55:58.817
And then, I don't, yeah, I haven't
treated it as part of an extension

00:55:58.817 --> 00:56:00.487
of the friendship side of my life.

00:56:00.517 --> 00:56:00.697
Yeah.

00:56:00.697 --> 00:56:00.997
That's right.

00:56:01.037 --> 00:56:03.927
Um, ironically, I end up
with friends off dating apps.

00:56:04.067 --> 00:56:04.517
Yeah, same.

00:56:04.517 --> 00:56:05.247
And there's no one left.

00:56:06.602 --> 00:56:09.782
Who's a sexual partner, so I've
got a couple of friends that I

00:56:09.782 --> 00:56:11.172
made on dating apps, actually.

00:56:11.882 --> 00:56:12.262
But also,

00:56:12.292 --> 00:56:15.992
Sam: the connected realisation of some
of the same problematic behaviours

00:56:16.042 --> 00:56:19.862
playing out in the so called platonic
space versus the romantic space,

00:56:19.932 --> 00:56:21.102
and just g But that's neediness.

00:56:21.792 --> 00:56:22.262
Joe: That's right.

00:56:22.302 --> 00:56:23.842
And neediness is a sin,

00:56:23.992 --> 00:56:24.392
Sam: you know?

00:56:24.442 --> 00:56:24.912
Agreed.

00:56:25.052 --> 00:56:26.832
And well, do you know what
the other sin, though, is?

00:56:26.832 --> 00:56:29.510
I've come to understand my
understanding of, uh, what St.

00:56:29.510 --> 00:56:34.350
Paul was getting at was that sin is
not like gambling the family fortune

00:56:34.350 --> 00:56:39.811
away, I mean it is that, but the core
of it is The failure to love when you

00:56:39.821 --> 00:56:42.971
could have and like I'm like, yes,
I think that's really important and

00:56:42.971 --> 00:56:44.591
so and come to realize Yeah, I was

00:56:44.591 --> 00:56:48.061
Joe: reading Eckhart Tolle last
night and he talks about sin as being

00:56:48.061 --> 00:56:51.591
misunderstood as a term And it's actually
about you could be translated from

00:56:51.591 --> 00:56:53.531
the ancient Greek as missing a target.

00:56:53.611 --> 00:56:54.031
Yes,

00:56:54.381 --> 00:56:55.541
Sam: failing to be a target.

00:56:55.671 --> 00:56:56.191
That's right

00:56:56.601 --> 00:56:57.551
Joe: That's exactly right.

00:56:57.561 --> 00:57:02.511
It's a different and my neediness is
a sin Because, I'm annoying people who

00:57:02.511 --> 00:57:06.421
don't want to hear from me, but what
I'm wanting is right connection, what

00:57:06.421 --> 00:57:08.081
I'm doing is a sin because it's missing

00:57:08.081 --> 00:57:08.561
Sam: the target.

00:57:08.581 --> 00:57:11.561
Looking for the thing in the wrong
place, and me, looking for the

00:57:11.561 --> 00:57:14.471
exact thing in the exact right
place, and then not acting on it.

00:57:14.836 --> 00:57:17.176
So like thinking about having
a list of friends you could

00:57:17.276 --> 00:57:21.766
Joe: think and thinking about particular
person you and gone out for coffee and

00:57:22.026 --> 00:57:25.136
probably tried to problem solve the
whole thing and tell you get your shit

00:57:25.316 --> 00:57:26.396
Sam: together and it
would have been great.

00:57:26.426 --> 00:57:26.686
Ali: Yeah.

00:57:26.686 --> 00:57:27.756
And I think that's the thing.

00:57:27.906 --> 00:57:31.326
You're so pleasantly surprised when
those things do actually work out, but in

00:57:31.326 --> 00:57:33.246
the moment it is actually very hard to.

00:57:33.506 --> 00:57:36.476
Fathom that it would work out that
way, that you feel like you're a

00:57:36.476 --> 00:57:38.926
burden or you're bothering them or
pestering them, or that you don't,

00:57:39.136 --> 00:57:43.636
they, they wouldn't have the time or the
availability when most people and a real

00:57:43.636 --> 00:57:47.036
friend will actually drop everything
and be there for you in a heartbeat.

00:57:47.066 --> 00:57:47.956
Sam: A hundred percent.

00:57:47.966 --> 00:57:52.186
And like, just re, re, like imagining not
a good or a bad outcome, just imagining

00:57:52.186 --> 00:57:53.626
like whatever happens, it'll be fine.

00:57:53.626 --> 00:57:54.456
It'll be manageable.

00:57:54.456 --> 00:57:57.806
Like it's a, and you know, whether or
not you'd have problem solved all my

00:57:57.806 --> 00:58:01.126
problems or not, it would have been,
and that's why sometimes I've had to

00:58:01.126 --> 00:58:05.921
count on people reaching out and just
take that as the sign that it's time

00:58:05.921 --> 00:58:07.831
to connect with another human being.

00:58:08.591 --> 00:58:14.431
But it's a good thing also to put on
your grown up hat and do it for yourself.

00:58:15.441 --> 00:58:16.571
Joe: All right, let's
leave it there, guys.

00:58:16.571 --> 00:58:17.271
Thanks, Joe.

00:58:17.371 --> 00:58:17.751
Thank you.

00:58:17.751 --> 00:58:18.461
Thanks, Ali.

00:58:18.471 --> 00:58:19.151
Thanks, Sam.

00:58:19.461 --> 00:58:19.781
Cheers.