Interior Integration for Catholics

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Dr. Peter teaches three levels of listening with an invitation to practice those listening skills in hearing the story of King David's youth and adult life, along with an introduction to conception from Internal Family Systems thinking by Richard Schwartz.

Show Notes

  1. Intro: Welcome to the podcast Coronavirus Crisis: Carpe Diem!, where by God’s grace, you and I rise up and embrace the possibilities and opportunities for spiritual and psychological growth in this time of crisis, all grounded in a Catholic worldview.   We are going beyond mere resilience, to rising up to the challenges of this pandemic and becoming even healthier in the natural and the spiritual realms than we were before.  I’m clinical psychologist Peter Malinoski and I am here with you, to be your host and guide.  This podcast is part of Souls and Hearts, our online outreach at, which is all about shoring up our natural foundation for the Catholic spiritual life, all about overcoming psychological obstacles to being loved and to loving.  
    1. This is episode 42, released on November 16, 2020
    2. Thank you for being here with me.  
    3. and it is the sixth episode in our series on shame.  
    4. and it is titled: Practicing Deep Listening:  Understanding King David's Shame
  2. Introduction to IFS.
    1. Developed by Richard Schwartz  

    1. Discussion of Parts
      1. Discrete, autonomous mental systems, each with own idiosyncratic range of emotion, style of expression, abilities, desires views of the world. 
        1. Modes of operating
        2. Subpersonalities
        3. Orchestra model
        4. Focus is on integration.  

      1. Get forced into extreme roles -- attachment injuries and relational traumas
      1. Three roles
        1. Exiles -- 
          1. most sensitive -- become injured or outraged.  Threatens the system, external relationships
          2. Exploited, rejected, abandoned in external relationships
          3. Want care and love, rescue, redemption
          4. shame.  Need for redemption 

        1. Managers
          1. Protective, strategic, controlling environment, keep things safe
          1. Obsessions. Compulsions, reclusiveness, passivity, numbing. Panic attacks, somatic complaints, depressive episodes, hypervigiliance.

        1. Firefighters
          1. Stifle, anesthetize, distract from feelings of exiles
          1. No concern for consequences
          1. Binge eating, drug/alcohol use, dissociation, sexual risk taking, cutting

      1. Parts can take over the person
        1. Like in Pixar Movie Inside Out -- anger taking over the control panel of the main character Riley
        1. We call it blending.  

  3. IFS on the Self -- (recorded)
    1. Self defined as the seat of consciousness
    1. Self can be occluded or overwhelmed by parts
    1. When self accepts and loves parts, those parts transform back into who they were meant to be
    1. Self-led mind is self-righting.
    1. self -- Active inner leader -- more than mindfulness
    1. Parts find the relationship with the self very reassuring
      1. But to reap the benefits they have to unblend from and notice the self
      1. This is frightening can challenging to parts
      1. Agency in the parts -- parts are making decisions about unblending in IFS model

    1. Intrinsic qualities of the self
      1. Curiosity
      1. Compassion
      1. Calm
      1. Confidence
      1. Courage
      1. Clarity
      1. Creativity
      1. Connectedness
      1. Kindness

    1. The self can be easily occluded, obscured, hidden by protective parts who take over in response to fear, anger or shame
      1. General state for most people is to be quite blended
      1. Leads to self-absorption

  9. 3 levels of Listening -- Laura Whitworth, Henry Kimsey-House, Phil Sandahl & John Whitemore 1998  Co-active Coaching: New skills for coaching people toward success in work and life.    I am expanding their concepts.  
    1. Listening to --  Level 1 listening -- Listening with your mind -- Many people struggle with this
      1. Often called active listening
      1. Listen carefully to what the person says
      1. Grasping the content
      1. Requires attention, concentration, taking in what the person is saying.  

      1. Focus externally on the other person, not internally.  Not distracted by own self-focus
    6. Listening for -- Level 2 listening -- Rarer.  Characteristic of very good therapists.  
      1. Listening in search of something-- filling in the gaps in the person's big picture
      2. What is beyond and behind the words?
      3. Holding it lightly.  Speculative endeavor.  
      4. Listening to what the person does not say
      5. Listening with the third ear  The "third ear," a concept introduced by psychoanalyst Theodor Reik 1983 Book , refers to a special kind of listening -- listening for the deeper layers of meaning in order to perceive what has not been said outright. It means understanding the emotional underpinnings conveyed when someone is speaking to you.
      6. What are we listening for?  
        1. The person's experience -- to grasp the person's experience
        2. Emotions
        3. Intentions
        4. Thoughts
        5. Desire
        6. Attitudes toward the world 
          1. Glass half empty or half full
        7. Impulses 
        8. Vision of the world
        9. Working models of the world, assumptions.  
        10. Values
        11. Purpose in life
        12. I listen for identity and for shame.  
      7. Listening for both the words and the entire context 
        1. 70-93% of communication is nonverbal -- Albert Mehrabia, Professor Emeritus at UCLA
          1. Voice -- tone, inflection, volume 38% of communication
          1. Body language -- glance patterns, facial expressions (including micrexpressions -- smiling matters a lot), posture, fidgeting, head movements, hand gestures, 

        3. Summarized in his 1971/1980 book Silent Messages
        4. Based on one word communications
        5. Challenged by Philip Yaffe debate about it.
      8. Faculty of imagination   -- What Aristotle called Phantasia activities in thoughts, dreams and memories.  
        1. imagination is a faculty in humans and most other animals which produces, stores, and recalls the images used in a variety of cognitive activities, including those which motivate and guide action (De Anima iii 3, 429a4–7, De Memoria 1, 450a22–25).
      9. Focus here on understanding, entering into the other person's perspective
        1. Taking in what the person means (in contrast to what the person says in Level 1) 

        1. Not evaluating the merits of that perspective, not getting caught up in judging that perspective
        1. Not looking to right wrongs, not looking for justice, not asking deep existential questions about how could that terrible thing have happened to the person, not formulating advice, not looking to impress.  

        1. Setting all that aside.   To be with the person.  

        1. Taking that perspective in.  Seeing the world through the other person's eyes.  Stepping into their shoes
    7. Listening with -- Level 3 listening -- not exactly what Laura Whitworth and her colleagues meant -- going way beyond.  Very rare -- characteristic of great therapists
      1. Listening with your whole self. 

      1. Listening with your heart and to your heart
        1. Window of tolerance.  

        1. Listening to your intuition -- listening to your own parts -- not just words
          1. Emotions -- Fear, sadness, anger, disgust, happiness, etc.
          1. Impulses
          1. Intentions
          1. Thoughts that spontaneously arise
          1. Images
          1. Memories that pop up
          1. Body sensations
          1. Songs -- Internal Jukebox
          1. Sayings
          1. Gut sense
          1. All your inner experiences

        1. Remember, this is your stuff.  This is your experience.  

        1. Interpersonal field.  Which parts of me are resonating with your parts.
        1. Listening for the shifts in messaging along with the shifts in relating.   

        1. What does the person need
        1. Self as instrument -- tuning the instrument in to a frequency understand the other
        1. Curiosity -- why am I reacting this way.   

        1. Compassionate connection

  10. Listening to David's childhood
    1. Could be historical mistakes
    1. Point is to listen.  Three levels
    1. Episode 41 -- argued that Jesse did not know David was his son until it was revealed by the prophet Samuel  
      1. David raised as a bastard, in the household as the illegitimate son of Nitzevet 
      2. David's brothers wanted to kill their adulterous mother by stoning (as the law called for) and the unborn baby David within her womb, but out of love for his former wife, Jesse intervened. 
      3. From the time of his birth onwards, then, Nitzevet’s son David was treated by his brothers as an disgraced, social outcast, worth nothing.   
      4. Noting the conduct of his brothers, the rest of the community assumed that this youth was a treacherous sinner full of unspeakable guilt

    1. Part of David bore the pain of shame -- he was shamed.  He was rejected.  He was ridiculed, condemned, misunderstood and a part of him bore that.  
      1. So that he would not be overwhelmed by it all the time.  
      2. Discussion of parts who step in to take the burdens.  Especially shame
        1. So we can function in day to day life. 

        1. Protectors against shame
          1. Great achievements -- in battle, in administration, in setting up liturgical functions.   

    1. Psalm 69
      1. Read the psalms out loud
        1. Reason that the breviary, the Liturgy of the Hours is read aloud.  Psalms are the majority of the LOH, the prayer of the Church.  Express so much of human experience.  So rich -- mindset, heartset, bodyset and soulset.  

      1. The youth David trusted in the Lord.  

      1. 1Save me, O God!

For the waters have come up to my neck.
2 I sink in deep mire,
    where there is no foothold;
I have come into deep waters,
    and the flood sweeps over me. 
Here we have a reliance on God as Protector, Savior.  
3 I am weary with my crying;
    my throat is parched.
My eyes grow dim
    with waiting for my God.
Here we have great suffering -- bodyset
4 More in number than the hairs of my head
    are those who hate me without cause;
mighty are those who would destroy me,
    those who attack me with lies.
What I did not steal
    must I now restore?
5 7 For it is for thy sake that I have borne reproach 
    that shame has covered my face.
8 I have become a stranger to my brethren,
    an alien to my mother’s sons.  Doesn't say father's sons.  
9 For zeal for thy house has consumed me,
    and the insults of those who insult thee have fallen on me.
Without a father to rely on here in his earthly life, David turned to God.  
17 Hide not thy face from thy servant;
    for I am in distress, make haste to answer me.
18 Draw near to me, redeem me,
    set me free because of my enemies!

 20 Insults have broken my heart,
    so that I am in despair.
I looked for pity, but there was none;
    and for comforters, but I found none.
21 They gave me poison for food,
    and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.
29 But I am afflicted and in pain;
    let thy salvation, O God, set me on high!
30 I will praise the name of God with a song;
    I will magnify him with thanksgiving.

 33 For the Lord hears the needy,
    and does not despise his own that are in bonds.
  1. Psalm 22
To the choirmaster: according to The Hind of the Dawn. A Psalm of David.
1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
    Why art thou so far from helping me, from the words of my groaning?
6 But I am a worm, and no man;
    scorned by men, and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock at me,
    they make mouths at me, they wag their heads;
8 “He committed his cause to the Lord; let him deliver him,
    let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”
9 Yet thou art he who took me from the womb;
    thou didst keep me safe upon my mother’s breasts.
10 Upon thee was I cast from my birth,
    and since my mother bore me thou hast been my God. -- No mention of father.  
14 I am poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax,
    it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
    and my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
    thou dost lay me in the dust of death.
 Praise -- Deep faith in Christ
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
    all you sons of Jacob, glorify him,
    and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
    the affliction of the afflicted;
and he has not hid his face from him,
    but has heard, when he cried to him.
  1. David become Saul's lyrist or player of the lyre
    1. 1 Samuel 16 14-23
    1. Saul tormented by an evil spirit because he had departed from the way of the Lord
    1. David is 
      1. Skillful in playing the lyre
      2. A man of valor
      3. Prudent in speech
      4. A man of good presence

    1. And Saul loved him greatly
    1. David became Saul's armor-bearer
    1. Refreshed Saul  

  6. David and Goliath 1 Samuel 17
    1. David in Saul's service
    1. Still feeding Dad's sheep -- killing lions and bears from his youth.  

    1. David hear Goliath breathing threats and ridiculing the Israelites.  

    1. Oldest brother Eliab still hating on him
      1. 28 Now Eli′ab his eldest brother heard when he spoke to the men; and Eli′ab’s anger was kindled against David, and he said, “Why have you come down? And with whom have you left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know your presumption, and the evil of your heart; for you have come down to see the battle.” 29 And David said, “What have I done now? Was it not but a word?”

    1. And David kills Goliath and is praised by the people.  

  8. David Victorious
    1. Women singing
    1. 1 Samuel 18 Saul gets jealous, looks for ways to kill him. Throwing spears at him, trying to get him killed by the Philistines at the head of his army, but David is victorious.  

    1. 14 And David had success in all his undertakings; for the Lord was with him. 15 And when Saul saw that he had great success, he stood in awe of him. 16 But all Israel and Judah loved David; for he went out and came in before them.
  11. God loved David
    1. Name means in Hebrew "beloved."
    1. Three anointings
      1. As a shepherd boy in Bethlehem—1 Samuel 16:13.
      1. As king over Judah at age 27—2 Samuel 2:4.
      1. As king over all Israel at age 30—2 Samuel 5:3-5.

    1. 1 Samuel 13:14 but now your kingdom will not continue; the Lord has sought out a man after his own heart; and the Lord has appointed him to be ruler over his people, because you have not kept what the Lord commanded you.”
    1. David worshipped the Lord
      1. 73 psalms attributed to David
      1. Appointed certain Levites to play the harp, lyre, cymbals and trumpets to worship the LORD at all hours before the ark.  1 Chronicles 16.
      1. He strongly desired to build God a permanent temple. He felt guilty for living in palace of cedar while the Ark was in a tent and relayed Nathan his dream to build a temple — 2 Sam. 7:1-14.  David funded the temple, set aside the materials.  

      1. David never turned to idols.  Most of the 42 kings who ruled Judah and Israel at one point or another turned to idolatry.  1 Kings 11:4 For when Solomon was old his wives turned away his heart after other gods; and his heart was not wholly true to the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father. 

  14. The Downfall
    1. This was David's weakness.  Often said sins of the flesh
    1. Go back to listening
    1. Parts seeking to make up for a sense of something missing, something inadequate.   

    1. Polygamy.  
      1. How many wives and concubines did David have?
        1. Seven wives are named in scripture and he had more than that -- more are referred to. 

        1. At least 10 concubines. 

2 Samuel 20:3 reads  And David came to his house at Jerusalem; and the king took the ten concubines whom he had left to care for the house, and put them in a house under guard, and provided for them, but did not go in to them. So they were shut up until the day of their death, living as if in widowhood.
These were the concubines that his son Absalom defiled to make a political display of power and dominance over his father in 2 Samuel 16:22.  “So they pitched a tent for Absalom on the roof, and he slept with his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel.”
  1. Moses:  And he shall not multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply for himself silver and gold.  Deuteronomy 17:17
  2. Part interpretation.  
  3. David and Bathsheba
    1. This is in 2 Samuel 11
11 [a]In the spring of the year, the time when kings go forth to battle, David sent Jo′ab, and his servants with him, and all Israel; and they ravaged the Ammonites, and besieged Rabbah. But David remained at Jerusalem.
2 It happened, late one afternoon, when David arose from his couch and was walking upon the roof of the king’s house, that he saw from the roof a woman bathing; and the woman was very beautiful. 3 And David sent and inquired about the woman. And one said, “Is not this Bathshe′ba, the daughter of Eli′am, the wife of Uri′ah the Hittite?” 4 So David sent messengers, and took her; and she came to him, and he lay with her. (Now she was purifying herself from her uncleanness.) Then she returned to her house. 5 And the woman conceived; and she sent and told David, “I am with child.”
  1. Bathsheba is now pregnant, and David starts to try to cover his tracks.   He summoned her husband Uriah, who was at the front, in battle with the Ammonites.  When Uriah arrived, David tried to send him home, so that when the child was born, Uriah and everyone else would naturally assume that the baby was his. But Uriah was a man of honor.  Verse 11 Uri′ah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah dwell in booths; and my lord Jo′ab and the servants of my lord are camping in the open field; shall I then go to my house, to eat and to drink, and to lie with my wife?[b] As you live, and as your soul lives, I will not do this thing.”   He is a man of honor -- stark contrast.  
  2. Nathan's Prophecy
    1. 2 Samuel 12  7-15 Nathan said to David, “You are the man. Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul; 8 and I gave you your master’s house, and your master’s wives into your bosom, and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah; and if this were too little, I would add to you as much more. 9 Why have you despised the word of the Lord, to do what is evil in his sight? You have smitten Uri′ah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from your house, because you have despised me, and have taken the wife of Uri′ah the Hittite to be your wife.’ 11 Thus says the Lord, ‘Behold, I will raise up evil against you out of your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this sun. 12 For you did it secretly; but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.’” 13 David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. 14 Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord,[a] the child that is born to you shall die.” 15 Then Nathan went to his house.
  4. Parts of David
    1. Deep sense of shame -- fundamental sense of inadequacy that he looked to be met by women -- seeking to have needs met.  

    1. David never really known -- unknown in his father's house, and then rocket to stardom -- idealized by people.  Women singing his praises, 10x better than King Saul. 

    1. When David was recollected -- he acted in benevolent ways -- he pleased God.  God was meeting his needs.  

    1. Nitzeveh was his mother -- the one who cared for him when others didn't
    1. Parts need redemption -- who can complete me.  
      1. Drifting away from God, from responsibilities of being with his soldiers.  
      2. Wives
      3. Concubines
      4. Bathsheba -- adulterous relationship.
      5. Lust -- shame cycle.  Dominated by a part.
        1. Role of our Mother -- David didn't have that.  

  6. Now we are set up for assessing David and his silence in the whole situation with Tamar.  
  7. David honored as a saint, listed in the Roman Martyrology on December 29.  Made it to heaven.  Very imperfect.  There is redemption.  
  8. Call to Action
    1. Practice this listening -- as far as you can go.  With another person.  If that seems too much, read 2 Samuel 11 and 12 -- see what you can read between the lines.  Consider Bathsheba's experience.  We know little about her.  She did mourn her husband.    

    1. Can start by sharing these podcast -- spotify, apple podcasts, google play, amazon.  Share it on social media -- buttons are on our website at  -- get your word out there, with your personal recommendation -- how these episodes have helped you.  Share them, let others know 

    1. Get on the waiting list
    1. Second Wednesdays November 11 7:30 PM to 8:45 PM Zoom meeting -- we discussed trauma, shame and sprituality, all grounded in a Catholic perspective.  I will be going into some areas in a deeper way than I can with the podcast.  Come and join us. 

    1. Friday, November 28, 4:00 - 5:15 PM EST, Office Hours for RCCD members.  

  10. Patronness and Patron.

What is Interior Integration for Catholics?

In the Resilient Catholics podcast, together, we seek fundamental transformation in our lives through human formation. We look for God's providence in all that happens to us, in accord with Romans 8:28, grounded in an authentic Catholic worldview. Join us as we sail through uncharted waters, seizing the opportunities for psychological and spiritual growth and increasing resilience in the natural and spiritual realms. With a clear takeaway message and one action in each weekly episode, you can move from dreading what is happening to you to rising above it. Join us on Mondays for new episodes. You can also join our online community around this podcast at