{ "version": "1.0.0", "segments": [ { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "0.0", "endTime": "18.415", "body": "Welcome back to The Handsome Hour. Today, we have a extra special guest, Joshua Lisek, who has been blowing up x with some of his comments. Wes was joining in on x as well with some of his comments, and we get a fascinating take from one of the most prolific authors, ghost writers I've ever spoken to." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "18.415", "endTime": "42.925", "body": "Yeah. What we get into in this episode is, a, the trends that are sort of corrupting Western civilization that, frankly I think we all are in agreement are actively trying to sort of intentionally tear down Western civilization. But then the specific discourse that Wes and Josh are going back and forth on X is around once again female body count and whether guys should just get over it. And Josh has some good takes on all of that. So tune in." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "56.71", "endTime": "62.949997", "body": "Today, we're here with, Joshua Lisec. This is our first guest in the show. Joshua, you're in Dayton, Ohio. Is that right?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "63.269997", "endTime": "64.47", "body": "That is. Yes. Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "64.47", "endTime": "76.525", "body": "Ohio. You're like a big Ohio nationalist, dude. People people from Ohio really love Ohio. I lived in Ohio, and it's I guess you only understand it if you're from there. I'm not from there, but people love Ohio." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "76.605", "endTime": "108.215004", "body": "No. We had we had Joshua on the show because Joshua and I kinda went back and forth on Twitter this week over this over this tweet thread from lieutenant Joshua Kendrick, who's I don't think a real lieutenant in the military. But, yeah, we'll just kinda jump into the topic here. This guy says, going on dates with a girl and paying every time being a gentleman and then finding out she used to fuck guys at parties in college if they brought her a White Claw. Meanwhile, she's trying to play the get to know me game." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "108.215004", "endTime": "135.945", "body": "So, yeah, what he's describing is a girl used to really get around, and she's expecting you to romance her like a gentleman here. And Josh's take on this was hearing this big time from guys in the conservative GOP circles over the past few years. Women 25 and up will cozy up to them and push the purity shtick, But they went to the biggest party school in town, and now they're saying, oh, but I'm different now. I have higher standards. And, there are a few suitable wives on the right." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "136.105", "endTime": "141.465", "body": "And, yeah, there's a lot of discourse around this. So, yeah, just wanna get everyone's thoughts. What do we think?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "142.01999", "endTime": "164.245", "body": "I'm curious what, the cohost, Cody and Sony, have to say on this. And, of course, you, of course, as well, Wes. I I have an interesting perspective because I'm on I'm on the other side of a few things. So first and foremost, I'm a father of of three, two girls and a boy. The way that I think the proper child rearing approach is something like, how do I raise my children so that they want to have children?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "164.245", "endTime": "196.73001", "body": "So when they look back on their childhood, they think, I wanna create that as much as, you know, I can, the good parts minus the the negative parts because no parent is perfect, that they want to have children. And I've long thought that success as a parent means becoming a grandparent, and then raising children who themselves become grandparents, and so on and so forth. That is my, let's say, primary approach to all of this. I believe that the purpose of dating and marriage is ultimately to produce offspring because that's the family, that's civilization. And ultimately, that's, like, a biological imperative, you might say." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "196.73001", "endTime": "213.865", "body": "That's my, let's say, primary interpretation for the entire gender swap discourse. Okay. Then the next part of this is that I have a unique vantage point. I'm a non fiction book ghost writer. At this point in my life, I just passed fifteen years of ghost writing non fiction books." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "213.865", "endTime": "265.79", "body": "I'm somewhere past 120 books written at this point. The vast majority before AI was even a thing, so people can't, you know, claim that that number is fudged or fake, although they will anyway. About a half dozen or so of those projects have been books for prominent divorce lawyers around North America. And I have gotten deep into their cases that they've written about, and I've also done books for people who have been going through divorce, who have had custody issues. And so I have a unique perspective on this that so much of the legal aspects associated with marriage and custody and whatnot have become deeply familiar to me, even though they may remain opaque or, misunderstood of the general population, kind of the from first date to divorce decree, and everything in between and and so on and so forth." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "265.79", "endTime": "289.80002", "body": "And by sharing some of the experiences that I've had through working on those projects, I have received unsolicited, let's say, DMs, many men, some women also, basically saying, hey, Joshua. You're like a persuasion guy. Right? You learned this stuff from Scott Adams, and you're a professional hypnotist, which I am. I'm really going through it with my with my spouse, maybe soon to be, ex spouse." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "290.12", "endTime": "312.68", "body": "Can you give me some advice on how I might I might handle this? And and so it's kind of been you might be familiar with those dear Abby columns. It has become like dear Joshua in my DMs probably since about 2020, 2021. I've been regularly getting, basically cries for help from people. Most recently, it's been in person, people taking me aside." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "312.68", "endTime": "323.795", "body": "Hey, Joshua. I saw that that that thread that you did that did numbers on on dating. That's literally what's going on in my life. And then they'll share. These are at conservative events, Republican events, out and about." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "324.11502", "endTime": "344.95", "body": "Men, like, under 30 or 25 will kinda take me aside and say, that's exactly what I'm going through. So people will say, oh, it's just social media. Touch grass. Well, social media is real life, though in real life is social media. A phenomenon we're also seeing is that typically millennial age and young Gen X, women are mass divorcing their husbands." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "344.95", "endTime": "364.825", "body": "It's it's like a social contagion where one of them watches the therapy speak videos on Facebook, Instagram, or TikTok, talking about how, you know, your, your husband is not pulling his own weight. He's a toxic narcissistic abuser. Phrasing is very important. They will all use that. And then that person gets a divorce." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "364.825", "endTime": "379.41", "body": "Then the second friend, who's their best friend, feels left out. Well, I'm married to a toxic narcissistic abuser too. I need to be self empowered and live my best life. So then she files for divorce. And then, well, it's just sort of a cascade through all the friend groups." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "379.41", "endTime": "398.44", "body": "And one of my social groups, they're on divorce number six of like the the kind of the the cast of friends who are going through it. I shared that. People quoted it and then quoted the quotes because this is happening all over The United States. It's not just me and not just me and my one position. It's it's a bit of a of a mess." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "398.76", "endTime": "430.02002", "body": "And I think there's some disentangling and some separating of truth from fiction that is greatly required here in this, discourse because ultimately it results in a replacement fertility rate going down, which is against the humanity biological imperative. Or at least here in America, my, Ohio nationalism, I want there to be more Ohioans, not fewer. And if women and men hate each other and don't trust each other, well, that's not going to happen. And then we have population replacement migration and immigration policy to make everything even worse." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "430.5", "endTime": "452.975", "body": "Yep, it is sort of the problem. And if I mean, it's it's the propagation of humanity in the first place and, the propagation of Western values and everything like that. And then also, I mean, even if you even if you accept the solution, which is a terrible solution that we just replace ourselves with migrants. Well, they're going to assimilate after one hundred years, and then they're going have the same problems. And even if you go to like artificial wounds or something like that, that's not humanity." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "452.975", "endTime": "458.83002", "body": "That's not the same thing. But you touched on a lot there. What what do you guys Cody, what do you think? Cody, what do you think?" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "459.15", "endTime": "462.27", "body": "Well, well spoken. So that was my first one. Thank" }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "462.59", "endTime": "464.91", "body": "you. Yeah. You're you're gonna you're gonna really show us all" }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "464.91", "endTime": "465.38998", "body": "up here." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "465.38998", "endTime": "471.555", "body": "Apparently, you've learned how to use words over a 120 books. So Thank you. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "471.555", "endTime": "480.595", "body": "But am I wrong? Am I wrong? I I am well, I welcome I welcome pushback, controversy, disagreement. Joshua, there's that one thing you said. I'm I'm I'm certainly open to correction." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "481.08", "endTime": "493.375", "body": "I think we need more disagreement in this show, but I'm not gonna be able to disagree with you. Sorry. At least not yet. But give me give me time. I would also say that you are, I think, the only married one here, so your perspective is gonna be a little bit different." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "493.375", "endTime": "496.655", "body": "We're more on the pre marriage side, and I say that optimistically." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "496.655", "endTime": "502.815", "body": "You're you're post marriage also, Stoney. Like, let's he doesn't know the he doesn't know the lore. So Stoney is divorced. Stoney has a daughter." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "503.055", "endTime": "507.455", "body": "I was never married, so so thank But I I I am divorced because" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "507.455", "endTime": "507.85498", "body": "of law" }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "507.85498", "endTime": "509.14", "body": "marriage, though. Right? You would like" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "509.30002", "endTime": "510.1", "body": "Not really. No." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "510.1", "endTime": "514.42", "body": "No. Functionally, were married? Nope. Whatever. Well, I agree." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "514.42", "endTime": "529.87506", "body": "I I do think that the chief I I I guess I'm I'm just interested in hearing from someone. It sounds like you have a very healthy marriage. And, like, I I don't I think my perspective is a little bit unique because, like, I never really witnessed, like, in my life up close, like, very healthy marriage. You know, I I lost my mother when I was very young. My dad never remarried." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "530.03503", "endTime": "564.43", "body": "But it is interesting to hear that the, like when you were going into your marriage with your wife and you said that sort of the chief, the chief goal of a marriage is to procreate and have Children and do that. Like, I agree with that too as well. I I think that that's, it's sort of obvious to say it feels like, but also, like, I do think that there is some level of fulfillment that I'm looking for just like with a partnership from an with another person that you you're not getting from your normal friendships or with, like, really that you can't get, like, a level of intimacy that you can't achieve, like, with any other person. But I also don't know if that actually exists. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "564.83", "endTime": "567.71", "body": "Does that make sense? What do we think about that?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "568.75", "endTime": "570.35004", "body": "Can we hear from Cody first?" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "570.59", "endTime": "572.83", "body": "Yeah. I" }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "572.83", "endTime": "599.81", "body": "mean, I'm happy to go in that direction. Yeah. I mean, the direction I was sort of curious to take it in was maybe we can put a pin in this, but it was like, what do you think? There's all sorts of sort of local proximal causes that I'm hearing in what you're saying and or that I would sort of proffer. It's like, for example, the sort of incentives of therapists to tell their female clients that like they need to break over their husband and actually they're the only person, the therapist is the only person in the world they can really trust and so forth." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "600.45", "endTime": "622.12994", "body": "But it feels like that's all part of this sort of larger constellation of trends that, you know, maybe this is the conspiracy theorist in me, but that feel like they're all sort of connected. And so I was just curious to hear your thoughts on what are the sort of larger prime causes, But, that's a different that's a different thread." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "622.12994", "endTime": "644.385", "body": "I think there's multiple threads we can go to. That said, gentlemen, I didn't say I was married. I don't really talk about that publicly, if if if you don't if you don't mind. But I will point out that I've seen a lot on the inside. When it trying to conceptualize anything, I think about any narrative as like a book." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "644.385", "endTime": "675.65497", "body": "So I I try to imagine in any question, any thread, any topic, I think how would I write this as a book? And that's how I approach the subject. So if I if I was writing a book on what happened to the institution of marriage, what happened to male versus female relations, I would probably go back. The the introduction would probably take us back, maybe even the chapter one, might take us back to approximately 2,300,000 years ago. The beginning of the, Homo genus." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "676.4", "endTime": "710.84", "body": "I would start there, with upright walking primates and pair bonding experience. I would I would walk through what factors, environmental, genetic, and otherwise, resulted in the thing that eventually became what we know as marriage. And what was that like for hundreds of thousands of years, tens of thousands of years? What relationships were there? Monogamous, polygamous?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "711.4", "endTime": "726.355", "body": "Was it long term, short term for life? Okay. Well, you mate for a life like dolphins. How long were human beings expected to live in those days for the vast majority of our existence? Roughly 99 like, what is it?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "726.355", "endTime": "781.40497", "body": "99.57% of humanity is in prehistory, is the hunter gatherer quasi forager society. Some were more fisher people, fishermen, you know, others were more so hunters, 99% carnivore diet type scenario, depending on the biome, the environment. The human being is is is almost magically adaptive to any given environment. But if you were expecting to live to only be maybe 30, 35, 40, mating for life might start around 15 and then end at 21 when your proto husband or whatever the title might be was killed hunting. So for life might be something like from soon after puberty until they get killed and hopefully long enough to kind of set you up family and your families kind of combined together within your tribe of no more than a 150." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "781.40497", "endTime": "808.60504", "body": "We have to understand the world of humanity is is Dunbar's number. Anthropologically speaking, that means 150 people kind of maximum is how much you are designed to know in your entire lifetime. 150 people. That's like kind of the greater tribe, like your your clan and then the clans within the tribe, and then you have all the tribe, together. That's the world in which humanity is meant to exist." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "809.005", "endTime": "833.32", "body": "Across all of our environments, we are ill suited to exist in those. From artificial light to artificial foods, artificial socializing, artificial everything. There's fake food, fake light, as I am, you know, blasted by fake light, of course. My spotlight's here. I am talking to you guys, but it's not a real conversation." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "833.56", "endTime": "849.835", "body": "We are only seeing and hearing each other. We don't have haptic feedback. We don't have an actual three-dimensional real world relationship. What we're doing right now is deeply unnatural. Those of you who are watching this right now, it's on a screen, you're hearing a voice deeply unnatural that the person you're talking to is not physically present." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "849.835", "endTime": "889.44", "body": "That's not a thing. That said, humanity, we have conquered the wilderness. We have conquered mother nature. But the problem is our bodies, because we have animal bodies, are adapted, evolved, designed, otherwise made for an environment that no longer exists. In a tribe of approximately 150, when you came of age and were ready to mate, regardless of whether that looked like matrimony, short term, long term, what type of tribal customs that there were for that, there were maybe four to fewer than probably 20 potential matches for you." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "890.0", "endTime": "906.935", "body": "And that was it. And maybe you would live to 20, 25, thirty, thirty five, maybe. One in two chance your female partner, your wife, whatever you would call it, the proto wife, fifty fifty chance she dies after the first kid. Fifty fifty chance a child dies too. That's rough." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "907.095", "endTime": "939.45996", "body": "That's yeah. That's the world in which we are made. Agricultural civilization, there were that particular revolution, expanded the number of people that we knew. And matrimony, the institution of marriage, was made for a specific period of time. It was designed for a pre feminist, pre industrial, yet post agricultural civilization, society, technology, globalization, let's say." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "940.1", "endTime": "969.50006", "body": "And in much the same way we have issues with the with with with with laws that are made for a previous time. I think marriage as an institution is no different. I'm not marriage negative, personally, but I have a unique vantage point to see all of the issues that can occur because it seems like marriage is maladapted to the current environment. Dating, as we think of it. Romance is maladapted for its current environment." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "969.66003", "endTime": "988.165", "body": "Notice that hardly anywhere in actually nowhere in any ancient religion does romance appear. That's not a thing at all. Marriage was something that was done out of biological necessity so that your tribe could go on. There is the Song of Solomon in the Bible, but that's really about passion, not necessarily what you think of as chivalrous romance." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "988.165", "endTime": "1010.20496", "body": "What feature of marriage is it specifically or set of features? Because, you know, marriage is, on the one hand, marriage is conceptually just okay. I'm gonna spend my life with this person. And then the other hand, it's a It's a contract you make with the state that entails all sorts of legal obligations and things. So just just to be very specific about terms like you know when it's not if it's not, adaptive to current environment, like what features of marriage make you say that?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1011.00494", "endTime": "1046.29", "body": "Yes. So marriage as an institution is sort of as a as a both civil and religious. That's that's one thing that we have to have to consider is that civil marriage is relatively new relative to the religious institution of marriage, which has been a thing, of course, for thousands of years. And there was kind of like husband, wife, God type of relationship. And because of the small size of your society, your culture, your neighborhood, your community, your clan, social shame enabled the enforcement of the better behavior on the part of both." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1046.37", "endTime": "1077.5", "body": "Also, life was generally difficult, so there wasn't exactly time for anyone to sit around and whine about their first world problems, we used to call them, you know, and binge therapy speak content on social media about how, your your husband doesn't really love you, because he used the wrong, scent of dryer sheets. Okay? And that means he secretly is is is having an affair. This this this sort of stuff. Some of the reasons people cheat is just one of the worst ones I ever did, I'd ever did in a book." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1077.5801", "endTime": "1098.185", "body": "This woman, she started to see her husband a lot less. At night, he was staying he was staying late after work, and she believed that he was cheating on her. I did this for a I wrote about this for a lawyer. Ghost word, I should say. And so she wanted to get revenge on him." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1098.185", "endTime": "1118.575", "body": "So then she cheats. Well, turns out that he has just been staying later at work, creating ultimately generational wealth for their family and never cheated on her. But she cheated on him. She files for a divorce, gets half of everything. And that's that." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1118.655", "endTime": "1158.2", "body": "Now, everything I just described is completely legal from a civil marriage perspective. From a religious marriage perspective, deeply unethical to the point of being unjust. And this separation of church and state model that we subsist when within our world today, someone can act unethically and immorally, and they're not actually really at fault, let's say, in a civil context in many places. So what are we doing here is one way to think of it. Someone can Well, think of it this way." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1158.6", "endTime": "1182.955", "body": "In the civil marriage context, it's like you say, it's not a contract between the religion and the two parties. It's between the state and two parties. It's like a de facto union of your assets, incomes, expenses, debts. Basically, it's the ultimate group project. And if you did well in group projects in college, you'll probably like marriage." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1183.48", "endTime": "1216.48", "body": "If you were the type of person that you wanted an A and everyone else since you wanted sense that you wanted an A, so they could put in D to F level work, and then you would do the A for all of them, you do all of the work. Marriage is like that as a group project type of scenario. Now it does vary from state to state, community property, non community property, fault divorce versus no fault divorce. But generally speaking, there are similarities for the system across all of the states. And does it make sense for outcomes like that to occur?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1216.48", "endTime": "1230.865", "body": "This one that I mentioned. And of course there's ghastly, outcomes that we can all describe, you know? And it's like, well, this idea of the fiftyfifty split comes from a pre feminist time. Right? This the fifty fifty of debts." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1230.865", "endTime": "1236.305", "body": "Why why why do we do that? You know? Okay. So a man gets married to a woman. He takes on her student loan debt." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1236.305", "endTime": "1243.61", "body": "And, like, that's basically now his responsibility. You know? There's this whole discourse with Dave Ramsey that you could talk about there. Why? Why?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1243.61", "endTime": "1268.055", "body": "Why is that a why is that a thing? Well, if you think about why all of these a thing, it was because men were the head of a household. Now, there was one decision maker. Now, the way matrimonial law is often seen, and I've written about this, is every house, every marriage is basically co CEOs, legally speaking. In practice, does co CEO ever work?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1268.6699", "endTime": "1292.985", "body": "Absolutely not. That's what you do when the company is nose diving and they want to share the blame so that multiple parties can blame the other person. Co CEO, but yet we do that legally in marriage, this fiftyfifty husbandwife type of thing. That's never how it's been in in the past. So it's a bizarre mismatch because our culture is mismatch for us as people." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1293.145", "endTime": "1329.4999", "body": "Therefore, the institution is a mismatch for us as people because of what we have been like in the past. I I could keep going on this and and explaining. But ultimately, what again, I'm not anti marriage because I believe the purpose of marriage is to create children and provide them the best environment possible in which to grow up with both parents in their lives. I think marriage remains the best institution to do that. But I can also recognize that it's a vestigial institution of an agricultural period, a pre industrial, pre feminist type of institution." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1329.5", "endTime": "1341.2599", "body": "And just think about this. Think about this. There's also pre sexual revolution. There are some states where you can get an annulment if, the couple has never, what is it? Not, consummated the marriage." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1341.2599", "endTime": "1379.495", "body": "Okay. I know of several cases where it was like a green card type marriage, and then the that was kind of the deal. And then the formerly foreign wife now, I only know of it being the wife doing this. I don't know about her husband doing this, But she then decided that she was going go back on the agreement, try to screw her new husband, not of love, and take half of his assets, try to say that their prenuptial agreement was invalid and coercive and all this stuff, because a prenup is not exactly protective in many cases. In many cases it is, but it's increasingly less protective, I think, as that advice to just get a prenup becomes more common." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1379.495", "endTime": "1421.65", "body": "And I've written about this for some, some lawyers also. And so she decided that she was going to attack you know, and try to take half of this man's, her her husband's stuff, you know, a true, grateful immigrant, we have here, which is a whole another problem we could talk about, maybe a different podcast. But it turned out then that the woman wasn't a virgin like she had multiple boyfriends before, and so there was literally no way to prove that they had not consummated the marriage. To which you ask yourself, why do we have that as a rule? And also, wait a second, that concept exists from a time when everyone was waiting till a marriage and virginity was to be expected." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1422.3701", "endTime": "1433.115", "body": "Now in populations over 30, roughly fewer than one percent of all women are virgins in America. I think over 25, it's like five percent." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "1433.115", "endTime": "1437.835", "body": "Let's say she was a virgin. Are they bringing a doctor in? Is the court ordering an inspection? Is that" }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "1437.835", "endTime": "1438.3151", "body": "something they" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "1438.3151", "endTime": "1444.63", "body": "do? They did in one case. That famous New York, divorce lawyer. I forget his name. He's very well spoken, very" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1444.63", "endTime": "1445.99", "body": "well James Preston, I think." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "1445.99", "endTime": "1450.5499", "body": "Yep. He he actually brought in a doctor in in one particular situation." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1451.11", "endTime": "1472.765", "body": "Yes. But but but in in what in what world does that make any sense? This is what I mean with about about it being a vestigial organism. And it also comes from a pre scientific period also. But because of the advent of birth control and condoms and all those sorts of things, like the vestigial institution is a mismatch for our globalized society." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1472.765", "endTime": "1485.6", "body": "But again, do you got anything better for the raising of children in the next generation? A married husband and wife provides the best outcomes for children across the board. So is there anything better?" }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "1486.255", "endTime": "1560.77", "body": "So to sort of synthesize what you're saying, like it sounds like the large sort of theme there is that the fundamental problem is that our cultural institutions have failed to keep up with sort of hyper novelty of modernity, which is a common thread that we talk about. But the more interesting, and there's sort of this open question that you're posing of, well, what what what what can really be done about that? It's the best we have. The the maybe more interesting thing there to me is, you know, it almost there's that almost feels like there's a pretty sort of dark implication of what you're saying, which is that, like, well, this is just sort of human nature and the best we can do is sort of constrain it with just the enforcement of cultural norms and cultural institutions that restrict behavior and so forth. And I'm wondering if there's, I obviously, we all have opinions on this here that we've talked about a little bit, but I'm wondering your opinion on, do you feel like there's maybe also a perverting force in modernity that is acting on individuals that is, in other words, it's not just like human nature that has to be constrained." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "1560.77", "endTime": "1586.7198", "body": "It's always been like this and it always will be like this, but it's actually worse now in some ways, in particular in the ways that you're talking about, the cheating, the sort of all of these ways that we sort of need marriage in order to correct and constrain and to sort of address. In other words, right, we sort of have like, we're having this pincer move done on us where it's like, yeah, the cultural institutions that are breaking down, but also the very thing that we need them in order to fix is worse?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1588.32", "endTime": "1614.61", "body": "Yes. This is a very difficult question that I think a lot of people smarter than me, I've been trying to figure out and I don't think have developed anything quite yet. The closest reform that I have uncovered or that I've heard of that an attorney friend of mine suggested is what about the introduction of termed marriages? Termed marriages. And or as in like there's eligibility for renewal." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1614.61", "endTime": "1618.2899", "body": "So it's not this like immediate for life thing because It's like an" }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "1618.2899", "endTime": "1622.85", "body": "insurance policy. For four years, we're going to come back to this, right?" }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "1622.85", "endTime": "1675.3899", "body": "Well, I think you might be prescribing a potential change or solution to marriage, like a new institution, which might be an interesting thread to pull on too. But I was asking about something a little bit different. I was saying, you know, the very behavior that we need marriage, the norms that we need institutions like marriage to enforce, like, is there something about modernity or modern culture that is, I mean, I think probably the answer is like, we all say yes, but really the question is not just, is there it's like, it's what's going on there? That is, that is like, you know, causing individuals and people and to like, you know, to be especially unmarriageable, to be, you know, especially unfit for staying in a long term committed, happy, healthy, stable relationship." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1676.6749", "endTime": "1701.5499", "body": "Yeah, I think it's the same question, because behavior follows incentive structures, right? All the way down to bacteria. Put little drop of sugar, you're going to see bacteria, you're going to see ants, you're going to see any organism go that direction. So where is the sugar, pun intended, in the present day in the dating marketplace? Well, remember the world in which humanity is made for." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1701.7899", "endTime": "1748.7849", "body": "You come of age, basically mating maturity, let's say, and there's half dozen to maybe a couple dozen potential matches for you. You find your pick of it and that's basically what you're going to get. Tribal to small town life. Cities began to change that concept with the advent of, I would say, industrial and post industrial cities, where now there's a pick of hundreds, thousands. I believe it was the kind of the, drugstore soda fountain counter kind of became the first speed dating environment, beginning in approximately the 40s, 50s kind of period, sort of like before the second, feminist revolution, kind of second wave feminism." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1748.7849", "endTime": "1772.365", "body": "That was a world in which but you still had far more matches begin to appear. We have gone from diseases of scarcity as humanity to diseases of abundance. The problem of obesity is the problem of dating. It's the same set of problems across all of across the board for everyone. It's just too much." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1772.365", "endTime": "1801.245", "body": "Because when you have too much, it's harder to choose the right thing because you don't know. It's just so much easier to take all this in. Think about the number of potential matches you have on a dating app. And think about how many matches or likes you might get. A fun experiment that's done, of course, is fellows creating a female dating profile, a fake one, and within an hour they have 2,000 likes on their profile, an hour, for example." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1801.485", "endTime": "1807.165", "body": "And how is she going to choose? Well, she's going say, okay, if you have so much abundance, you don't know what to choose." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "1807.78", "endTime": "1870.68", "body": "I agree with everything you're saying, but I actually think there's like sort of something on top of that, which is like, it strikes me as curious, maybe a little too curious, that there are sort of all these forces that are working in almost seeming coordination or at the very least, moving in the same direction that are sort of not just, providing the cake and tempting humans with the cake, but also, glorifying and championing it and pushing them toward it. Like, so it's not just the presence of the dating apps. For example, there are these strains of thoughts like feminism that have been pushed by the academy, have been pushed by all sorts of authoritative sources, mainstream publications that say it's actually empowering and to go sleep around in your college days and to use the apps and so forth. So it's not just the presence of the apps, it's like, right, and then the therapists that agree with them and like there's all these narratives that seem to be and sort of, right, like just like cultural, I guess narratives is the best word, right? That are, that are actively pushing a philosophical perspective." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1871.4801", "endTime": "1907.87", "body": "I think pragmatically speaking, prince, the heuristic of follow the money is relevant here because celibacy fasting, same issue. If you're fasting, what are you not buying? Calories you don't need. Celibacy is the same experience or the sort of, virginity until marriage concept or not playing the field or settling down with your high school girlfriend. There's probably a calculation based on if you get married at 25 versus married at 35, how much more money you will spend as a single person on mating and dating activities." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1908.405", "endTime": "1950.195", "body": "And it's, I would guesstimate it's significantly higher consuming so much more. Think about the social media influencers and the therapists. How many sessions you can take to uncover someone's dirty laundry and make them think that they're married to a loser or a toxic pervert, let's say, versus one or two sessions, yeah, you're actually the problem lady, and giving them some practical reframes and some techniques to have some self awareness. Which is going to pay more. I believe that as far as we can tell, it used to be that big business and all the way down to now self employed influencers and therapists and so on and so forth." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1950.275", "endTime": "1984.76", "body": "There was a I think there was a sense of ethical responsibility for our society, in a high trust society, that even if you could make money off of someone, you wouldn't because that wasn't the right thing to do. But now we live in an age where therapists are incentivized to allow the person's problem to get worse because that means more sessions, as opposed to simply adjusting it and being done with it. Incentivized consumer products, think about household and consumer products, The makeup industry, beauty. Okay? Sexual health products, ironically." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "1985.08", "endTime": "2003.645", "body": "All of those are avenues for money making activities. And this also is found as sort of like, well, is this good for the person? Well, it's what the consumer wants. Well, what the consumer wants is high fructose corn syrup and red five and everything. If you look at their behavior, what they want are premium dating apps." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "2004.125", "endTime": "2038.885", "body": "So you think it's just sort of just a natural, like the natural convergence of bottom up market forces. I think I actually don't agree. I think that this is going to sound conspiratorial, but I think I actually do think that there is some kind of I don't know exactly what this is, but there is some kind of concerted convergent interests in essentially destroying the West. Like all of these things are sort of contribute to that. It's like and and one of the big subcomputer" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2038.885", "endTime": "2044.06", "body": "wrote that book. You're talking about this book. Cody, wrote the book you're talking about." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "2044.06", "endTime": "2047.5801", "body": "I've heard that's a fantastic book. That's, that's Josh and Jack Besovic. You wrote that book." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2047.5801", "endTime": "2053.435", "body": "Yeah. Were correct, Cody. By the way, you're fantastic. I agree with you partially. I partially agree with you." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2053.435", "endTime": "2057.515", "body": "I wrote I wrote the book on the on the on the plan to decline of the West. Okay." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "2057.515", "endTime": "2095.145", "body": "So but but but in particular, let me let me, one particular subcomponent that I think is a particular interest to us here and I think might be interesting to take it into this conversation too is like is what feels to me like essentially in all out full court press on like men. Right? And it's particularly difficult to talk about that. Like there is a there is an intrinsic natural Achilles heel to like men and attack vector on men, which is precisely this that like it's very difficult to defend men without seeming like a you're either compromising your own masculinity because of course a real masculine man would say I'm fine. I'm doing amazing." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "2095.145", "endTime": "2159.99", "body": "There's no, I'm not a victim. To defend or to talk about attacks on men is to essentially take a victim standpoint, which is intrinsically sort of unmasculine. And so that means that it is a sort of long lasting sort of just persistent perennial attack vector, is that if you can atomize and sort of disenfranchise men, they can't speak up about it. Men can never coordinate to sort of talk about like those sort of systemic problems. And so it feels like there is that force, that force that we're talking about, I'm sure you'll have a lot to say since you wrote the book on it, is using that as its primary, again, not to overuse the term, attack vector against men to take all these different routes to, yes, destabilize the family, disempower and disenfranchise men, and to do it under sort of cover of cover of dark of precisely that narrative that like, you know, if you're just trying to speak against it, like even just right now, it's I'm very conscious of the fact like I'm violating a taboo, right?" }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "2159.99", "endTime": "2167.67", "body": "It's like, you can't talk about this. You can't talk like this. Four men on a podcast talking about how men are victims unthinkable, right?" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "2169.525", "endTime": "2191.6099", "body": "I'll I'll I'll take that one step further, Cody. It's not just men, and I think the best micro example of this is the famous duke lacrosse rape charges. And for those of you who don't know that, this was covered extensively by the Rolling Stone magazine. And eventually, it came out that the entire story was made up. There everything was dropped." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "2191.6099", "endTime": "2203.105", "body": "I think some of the prosecutors got into trouble. Don't quote me. I'm I'm not a 100% sure. But that narrative identified who are the men we really don't like? Who are the men we really want to attack?" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "2203.4248", "endTime": "2226.5752", "body": "College educated, white, athletic men who are actually probably gonna be doing doing well in our society. So that's the narrative of, you know, feminism in that regard is it's not just pro women. It's not even just anti man. There's a very specific narrow attack vector." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "2226.655", "endTime": "2232.8152", "body": "Yeah. Uncoincidentally, the very men who most build civilization, which is why I tied it into the larger attack on Western civilization." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "2233.215", "endTime": "2249.6902", "body": "Yeah. And and when when do you not hear women say, you know, when do you not hear a peep? It's when they can't attack the ideal target, and they have to attack secondary men, secondary men that might actually be helping accomplish the mission of Western destruction." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "2249.77", "endTime": "2266.43", "body": "Yeah. Which is weird to like it honestly, it's, I find it a little, I don't know. I don't wanna say this, but like, I roll my eyes a tiny bit when people start talking about the attack on Western installation, the decline of Western installation because not because I don't think it's happening. It's clearly obviously. It's a little bit a tired topic." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "2266.43", "endTime": "2300.1401", "body": "I feel like the right has only talked about it exhaustively for ten years now. And also because it's so grand. It's so beyond the scale or scope of what any individual can really meaningfully, I feel like care about or act upon. And so it might be interesting here. I think it's certainly more interesting to try to take in the direction of like, okay, what are the implications for the individual and how does the modern guy or woman who's in their 20s or whatever, like supposed to deal with these, just these, the clashing of these sort of eldritch behemoths?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2300.62", "endTime": "2317.525", "body": "Yeah, I think these are a set number of, multiple parallel topics, but they do in fact, I think intersect and combine. Wes, do you have anything to add to I had a bit of a monologue there for a moment, then Cody and, Sony jumped in. But Wes, do you have anything for us?" }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "2317.605", "endTime": "2357.7102", "body": "Well, no. I mean, I think that what happens in some cases is like, you know, if we try to identify what is one overarching trend that causes a lot of these things that happen in parallel, I think that like it's you know, if you ever written Chris read Christopher Lash, what we can't talk about is like cultural narcissism. I mean, a lot of what therapy is just narcissism. It's like, you know, I'm going to go to talk about myself for an hour twice a week, and I'm going to select for a therapist who gratifies, you know me and tells me that nothing is my fault because that's what I want. And so the market incentives are going to turn therapy towards a, you know, an exercise in self soothing." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "2358.35", "endTime": "2384.56", "body": "You know, writ large and then, I think a lot of times what happens is you start with something that sounds like a good idea, right? It's like, okay, like women are gonna be a of like women are gonna go to the workforce. We have women do all these things, right? And but I think that people can't live in a world where, their their values or in more or immoral or where they have done something that violates their own values or like what? What you would consider like pro social values." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "2384.8", "endTime": "2401.565", "body": "So what? What you have is like you have a certain small number of women who are probably more prone to like psych psychopathy, right? Like the same way like a male psychopath is going to have more sexual partners. A female psychopath is going to have more sexual partners, right? And so you have women's liberation." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "2401.565", "endTime": "2444.62", "body": "Then you have a certain number of women who go out and they have lots of sexual partners. For example, like this. We're going to try to find a microcosm here, but they go and they have lots of sexual partners in college or something right. And so the first women to kind of make that leap in a world where that is now possible, but also taboo still, are going to be the women more prone towards psychopathy, and then They're going to go into positions of power, whether it's an academia and media or whatever it is, and for them to reconcile the actions that they've done in their lives with their need to, feel like they are moral or that they have good values. Well now they're going to go out and say, it's the same reason you get like fat acceptance movements, right?" }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "2444.62", "endTime": "2474.5298", "body": "Because a person can't say or a person has trouble saying I indulge in unhealthy food all the time, and I that has had consequences on me. That's really hard to confront that. So what I'm going to say is actually, it's great to be fat. Right So what you have is you'll have women in high cultural institutions, and they'll say, Okay, well, I did, this in my early years, and you know that probably has had bad effects on me. Actually it's not that actually, that's the thing you should do, ladies and then you get forty to fifty years of that, and it just becomes the zeitgeist." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "2474.5298", "endTime": "2484.065", "body": "Then it becomes sort of this mind virus, right? Like, it's like, you know, two little virus cells in your body never talk to each other, but they attack the body in accordance all the same." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2484.4648", "endTime": "2530.945", "body": "Yes, I think that is correct in the aspect of psychopathy, but also it is still part of this sort of, let's say narrative of, over consumption with regard to the number of partners you have, the dating opportunity and availability, one's weight management, obesity is a is a problem. I think all these factors are kind of coming together here because there's the the economic model of culture and the economic model of relationships, and they, I think, map very similar onto one another. It was Edward Bernays, mister advertiser and kind of post world war you know, for pre and then post World War two generation creating advertisements. And this idea was for the first time, you can make people buy things they don't need. You can trick them." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2530.945", "endTime": "2548.0398", "body": "You can persuade them. And they first targeted those who are in control of household spending, women, wives. They asked themselves who who makes buying decisions largely in households in America? Again, this is this is before the the the second wave of feminism. Well, it's women." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2548.0398", "endTime": "2569.685", "body": "Alright. We're gonna manipulate them first because that's who makes the buying decision. So the the kind of, advertising industrial complex emerged. Then something very interesting happened. In World War two, all factories engaged in all hands on deck arms production, vehicles, so airplanes, ammunition, so on and so forth for the war effort." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2570.3499", "endTime": "2600.35", "body": "Fantastic success story. But then, transitioning from a wartime to a civilian economy, with that same capability, you can now go from producing jeeps to family automobiles. You can go from producing bullets to toasters. Well, during war, the objective is to create as many as possible because they're going to get destroyed or blown up or used or otherwise. But a family doesn't need to buy more than one car, but for how many years?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2600.35", "endTime": "2621.495", "body": "How many decades? There are very quickly in America, late forties through or mid fifties, a severe oversupply of factory produced goods. Oh, we have a problem here. What what do we do? We we we have, a supply greater than a demand, and it's going to keep going." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2621.895", "endTime": "2653.195", "body": "This is where I talked about the high trust society. This is where the breakdown begins and a transition to a lower trust society with the subversion of Western civilization and the culture. I think this is an angle through which it was done. There are multiple aspects of society that cultural Marxist subversion took place. Now, Marxism is where you take the proletariat versus bourgeois, let's say paradigm of the poor are good and the rich are evil, and you apply that to cultural and social issues." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2653.58", "endTime": "2680.125", "body": "Blacks are good and whites are evil. Gays are good and straights are evil. Women are good and men are evil. And when you intersect those, when you create intersectional feminism and other movements, you can basically create the ultimate villain, a straight white male according to cultural Marxism, and that's who you must subvert. That is your originally sinful great evil in your society that as a cultural Marxist you have to seek and destroy." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2680.125", "endTime": "2710.2349", "body": "The way to do that is to gain power in institutions, Education, government, media, and of course, business. Business. And so this is where the consumerism and the communism frankly begin to intersect with the intentional, let's say, manipulation, the emotional manipulation of the consumer. And because between 7090% of consumer decisions being made are made by the woman of the household, the wife, the mother, right? That's who that advertising targeted." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2710.6401", "endTime": "2757.815", "body": "So in the 50s, professional hypnotists were hired by manufacturing groups and business associations in The United States and in The United Kingdom, with the idea being how can you subconsciously manipulate the consumer, largely women, into wanting to buy things their family doesn't need? And then we have this sort of, hyper capitalist runaway late stage capitalism hyper consumerist economy beginning in the fifties and accelerating on from that point. Prior to that, there had been a sense of, ironically to use a leftist term, corporate social responsibility. There had there had been that sense of we don't sell people things they don't need. That's wrong because we live here." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2757.815", "endTime": "2781.155", "body": "We're neighbors. The small business owner doesn't wanna manipulate, missus Gray next door. You're not gonna manipulate her into buying a toaster she doesn't need when she already has one. But if you are a manufacturer multiple states away or a different city or God forbid you're using foreign labor, you're gonna have Doris Gray buy as many toasters as he possibly can manipulate her into buying. And not just that, but she needs a second car." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2781.155", "endTime": "2795.08", "body": "She needs to buy all these things. Oh, she needs to divorce her husband because now two separate households. Now you double the number of toasters you can sell. You double the number of cars. And it just it just run away as there's less and less social intimacy." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2795.08", "endTime": "2819.435", "body": "We get further and further away from Dunbar's number. We don't have that homogenous high trust society. Diversity makes literally everything worse, which is why it's one of the foremost values of the anti Western subversives. The more heterogeneous you make a society, the worse everything gets. As recently as 2007, the New York Times published, material on this." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2819.435", "endTime": "2845.215", "body": "I think it was called the the either the dark side of diversity, the downside of diversity. It was analysis on all factors like community engagement, neighbor relationships, voting, volunteering, acts of kindness. They all plummet in the presence of diversity. And so the objective is to create as much of it as possible. I'm seeing this same, maybe you could call it corporate narcissism, if we're gonna do that." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2845.775", "endTime": "2876.295", "body": "I see this in my own neighbor. My next project is called Haitians of Springfield. I'm writing about the mass immigration influx into famously Springfield, Ohio. One of the most common phrases you hear from the business owners around town, the successful landlords, they love the Haitian migrants. They work more hours for less pay, and complain less, and and demand fewer entitlements, and will pay more to live in lower quality housing." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2877.19", "endTime": "2890.955", "body": "So there's one business owner, MacGregor Metals, president and CEO. He said he would take it basically take take as many Haitians as he could get. He would have even more of them working if he could possibly get them. That sentiment is very common throughout Springfield. Why?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2890.955", "endTime": "2918.3098", "body": "Where there between 15,034 Haitians dropped on a city of only 60,000, predominantly white, conservative Republican city? Because they wanted to replace the population. It's, it it simply comes down to the economics of it. You can make more off of a migrant population than you than you could off of a of senior citizen tilting pensioner working class military veteran population. They just thought it was good economics." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2918.675", "endTime": "2931.635", "body": "Right? And it's like that upper class ironically that that that benefits. It's the capitalist who benefits from communism. Is this not there's not that the great irony, of all of this. But that's in a that's a low trust environment." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2931.86", "endTime": "2945.9402", "body": "Forget my neighbor. I don't wanna give his kid a job. I wanna bring in Jean Pierre from Port Au Prince and pay him $11 an hour. So I've gotta pay my neighbor Phil's son $32 an hour. Very common story, by the way, of that difference in in in wages." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "2946.1", "endTime": "2963.85", "body": "What Americans want, you know and you can pay Haitians 50%, 75%, 80% less and not even offer them full time job. Just keep them as a temporary worker and just keep renewing the contract through your agency. It's it's it's rather hideous. That's the real story. The cats and the dogs are a sideshow, although I talk about that too." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "2964.57", "endTime": "2985.8152", "body": "So it's starts with the degradation of of social trust. It starts with the, you know, you go from a high trust society to a lower trust society because something happens before you start bringing the Haitians in where the guy says, you know, you know, maybe in the nineteen thirties or nineteen forties, you can imagine this local business owner seeing himself as a benefactor to the community. And they're like, oh, these are the people I grew up with. These are my people. These are, you know, my local community." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "2985.8152", "endTime": "3007.1848", "body": "This is where I'm going to die. This is where my children are going to live. I owe this community something and part of that is, you know, to give these people jobs and, you know, purpose and a sense of community. Is it it is it is it just the the the destruction of of of social trust that leads to the person's now saying like, oh, well, give me the Haitians instead because now it becomes like a a number go up game. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3007.1848", "endTime": "3014.865", "body": "It's like he cares about his bottom line more than he cares, but it's like, what is the bottom line for if not the people around you? Well, How does that change take place?" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "3014.865", "endTime": "3020.2249", "body": "The bottom line is also there so you have enough wealth so you can insulate yourself from the Haitians." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3020.97", "endTime": "3021.3699", "body": "Right." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "3021.3699", "endTime": "3041.2551", "body": "So part of the desire for money is to return to that high trust society where you're like, great. I can afford that single family home in the suburbs, which is going to give me a semblance of what I used to be able to get almost anywhere in America." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3041.2551", "endTime": "3059.89", "body": "Right. It's like you at least you can enjoy that from inside the walls of your gated community. You can have, you know, like, you know, it's not going to be the town. It's not going to be the state. It's not going to be the nation, but it is going to be us in the small group here, which is also ironically part of the problem with bringing in, you know, large groups of minorities and sticking them together at one place is that they're coming from a place like it's like the Somalians in Minnesota." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3060.21", "endTime": "3081.3", "body": "It's they view each other as members of the same community, but they view us as a resource to be harvested. And they're going to be loyal to each other, and they're going to have their own in group, you know, policy, but and they're going to treat us totally different from them, right? And it's so it sets us like it's not even just bringing them here in the first place. They have this tribal loyalty to each other that we don't have with one another. So we're just" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3081.46", "endTime": "3111.0503", "body": "Well, it's not even allowed after the civil the civil rights movement, civil rights act, anti discrimination laws, the, you know, post World War two, that sort of, denoxification, in my opinion, worked so well that if you have any positive sentiment towards another white person and then you realize, oh, that's a white person. Oh, Nazi. Oh, oh, oh. And and then you have to, like, almost panic, and now you have to discriminate against that person because they're white. This is something that that we mentioned Scott Adams earlier." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3111.4502", "endTime": "3127.925", "body": "Scott Adams pointed this out that he was denied promotions and opportunities forty years ago, beginning forty years ago. He said, sorry. You know, management says, who are all white men, by the way, they say we can't promote any we can't promote any white men straightening straight white men. Sorry. We can't we can't legally do that anymore." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3127.925", "endTime": "3156.445", "body": "Of course, that's not legal, obviously, to do that. But there's that sense of, and you hear this amongst liberals. I call them NPR Americans because they listen to NPR and think they're hearing the real news. You know, they they have, an in group bias against their in group rather and an out group prejudice, which is in favor. Some will call this the bigotry of low expectations, and that they have sort of a diminutive worldview towards an approach to minorities." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3156.445", "endTime": "3170.07", "body": "Oh, you're so helpless. Let me help you. That kind of the undermining and the redirecting of the maternal instinct almost. And liberal women, will see this. The way that they treat immigrants is the way they're supposed to treat their own children." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3170.355", "endTime": "3184.69", "body": "But they don't have any children because that would be racist, because then you have white babies, and then now you're now you're literally, Adolf Hitler as a woman or something. This is the this is the the extent to which the propaganda has been effective. Oh, high trust society. Oh, mean white, you racist? You know?" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3184.69", "endTime": "3188.05", "body": "And then it gets all carried away and then now people feel bad." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "3188.45", "endTime": "3229.7449", "body": "So let's bring it home then to the sort of thing that kicked all this off, which is the implications and ramifications of all of on dating. One of the many, consequences of all of these trends that we're talking about, of course, is younger women having higher body counts. And, that is one of the many things driving a wedge between men and women, which is that this is one of the things that men tend to care about. And it does feel like there's this trend where women are allowed and encouraged to have standards. But if a man has a standard, it's unthinkable and it sparks lights a flame in the dating discord, the idea that men would care about something such as a woman's body count." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "3229.7449", "endTime": "3266.2349", "body": "But the specific thing that I think might be interested in pushing on here is, I think that you guys were a little bit of disagreement. Wes, your take was guys just have to get over this. I don't want to strawman anybody here, so jump in if I'm misquoting anybody. Josh, I think your take was, don't know anybody essentially or any men who are basically willing to do that. And it does feel like to me a little bit that like it is, you know, it is this sort of with the voice of these narratives that, or it is precisely these narratives that want to encourage men to get over it, Wes." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "3266.2349", "endTime": "3282.06", "body": "So it feels like when you're prescribing that you are maybe inadvertently, maybe you're okay with this fact, but like sort of ultimately being a bit of a mouthpiece for, these forces and narratives that want you to just get over it and be okay with, you know, women getting to have sync basically double standards." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3282.22", "endTime": "3291.615", "body": "Dude, I'm getting shredded. I'm getting shredded by guys on Twitter for this. No. So okay. I I'm not talking about if she banked 50 dudes." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3291.615", "endTime": "3326.515", "body": "I'm not talking about if she was there for four years getting slammed out like a piece of meat every night. That's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is like, Look, we you can't hold to two things in your head at the same time, right? You can't say that, like women are malleable and like, you know, really just like blowing around the wind of cultural forces that are, you know, manipulating them on through one side of your mouth and then through the other side, be like, if you did something as a young girl when you were 18 years old, you are unmarriageable for life. You should die alone." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3326.755", "endTime": "3336.83", "body": "Right? I think that if you're a guy like, look, I'm not saying you need to marry a girl who was a whore. Okay? You you probably shouldn't do that. I think that the statistics would say you don't wanna do that." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3338.27", "endTime": "3358.435", "body": "If she banged a few dudes in college, big deal. Right? Like or I mean, I I honestly think a lot of the guys like, if if if you've ever had sex with a woman, like like, the guys who think that sex is very, very I think that sex is meaningful. I think it's a a sacred act or whatever. But I do also think that, like, if you've never had sex before, you're gonna, like, really worry about that kind of stuff." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3358.435", "endTime": "3394.72", "body": "And then, like, kinda once you've got it out of you, you know that, like, sex is one thing, and it's probably not good to be having a bunch of sex with random people. But there is clearly a difference between sex as a physical act and sex as like arrows. Like, CS Lewis talks about the difference between, like, Venus and arrows, which is like arrows is like a a combination of souls that happens when you, like, you know, make love to someone who, you know, you're very intimate with. Whereas, like, know, there's there's also just, like, physical sex. And and I just don't get where guys are coming from when they're like, if she's had sex with any other man in her life, I cannot be with her." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3394.72", "endTime": "3398.56", "body": "Like, she deserves to pay for her actions. I think you you gotta" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3398.56", "endTime": "3435.895", "body": "hold more specific to what If I could jump in with I think part part of this part of this context is is that is the highest concern in the, like, conservative Christian community, be it Catholic or be it evangelical, where the incentive structure is you get your slate wiped clean as a Christian. Jesus forgives you of everything. So who is a man to hold it against you? And you have, within the body count discourse, more women having more opportunities than than the men. Although men are largely let's call them vol cells, voluntarily celibate, where they want to protect their virginity, although male virginity is not a thing, obviously, because men aren't women." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3435.895", "endTime": "3454.42", "body": "That's not how those parts work. And so what's happening is men are dedicated to, you know, purity and whatnot and saving themselves till marriage to use effeminate language, but it is what it is. And then women are coming into the church or being told Jesus forgives you. It's all fine. Your husband should love you the way you are." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3454.66", "endTime": "3477.74", "body": "And then you have the, you know, Trevor and Ashley sheets were the topic of the discourse where he wrote this multimillion viewed, and much maligned, necessarily so, thread where he's like, I was a virgin when we got married. You can almost like see him doing this. And and, you know, but but my my wife was, was formerly so promiscuous. Let's talk about how promiscuous she was. Let's talk about the acts that she was doing with other men." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3477.74", "endTime": "3480.3", "body": "Just like, what what's what is this fetish you have here?" }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3480.78", "endTime": "3485.18", "body": "I didn't realize that's what you were talking about because you said Trevor and Ashley. I remember seeing that post weeks ago and" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3485.18", "endTime": "3503.175", "body": "being Yes. That has one of them. So so it's like, she's welcomed in. And then and then they do a podcast tour on, like, the conservative evangelical podcasts, like praising her bravery and her courage. So what's happening here is you can live a promiscuous lifestyle and then go to church, and they will praise you for it." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3503.175", "endTime": "3525.125", "body": "You get attention for having been promiscuous. Whereas like the the virgin girls and women who never did anything, just like the men, where's their attention? They don't get any attention. You know, all these like former OF girls and porn stars and whatnot coming into the church, they're immediately, platformed. Attention is influence and that's what oh, that's what's rewarded rewarded in this church." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3525.125", "endTime": "3553.955", "body": "If I want attention as a Christian, I need to go live a worldly secular lifestyle. But but that is only working on the women. That that that op, let's say, is being run only on women. The other issue is is I I call it getting Sarah stalked, right? Where, know, the Catholic influencer, Sarah Stalk, had been, living a licentious lifestyle at the time that she was engaged to a man who claimed that he was a male virgin, and was very much dedicated to that." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3553.955", "endTime": "3590.73", "body": "I have to admit, I met both of them and spent time with both of them in person, during some of this when we were none the wiser as what was really going on having this affair with this married man and so on and so forth. And then finally being outed via Milo Yiannopoulos, because that's what Milo was for, in our culture, thank goodness. And so that is another fear, that this woman who says that she was a virgin actually is doing all this kind of stuff. So when she says, I'm waiting till marriage, what she really means is, I'm waiting till marriage with you, chump, who doesn't know any better because you're so naive because you don't understand women like me. So nobody wants to get Sarah stalked." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3590.73", "endTime": "3621.84", "body": "And so at the same time, they don't wanna be in an ask whichever situation where he had, like, one girlfriend when he was 17, and she's been with the 50 guys or maybe five. But if it's not zero, he he doesn't know. He doesn't know that there's no nudes of her on somebody else's phone. He doesn't know that there's no pornography of her on the Internet. He doesn't know that there are not strange men who are gonna be at the wedding who don't have her sex tapes on their phone still or in the cloud or on the Internet or all of the above." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3622.16", "endTime": "3659.39", "body": "Nobody wants to be the guy who hears from her old friend, he's just a friend, I slept with your wife. That that is a no go zone for conservative conservative Christians. But because of the imbalanced body count situation, where where men are told you have to be pure, be sexually chaste, but they incentivize women living a promiscuous lifestyle. And then now you just go to church and say you were prepared for Jesus, and now you get a platform and you you get a mic and you get a podcast and you get to go on and and and do this whole tour of how wonderful you are. And I just I live that way because I was just I was just so broken." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3659.775", "endTime": "3669.055", "body": "And they do that thing. I'm just so broken. They use that language. It's it's it's an ejection of all accountability and responsibility. And men are seeing right through it." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3669.055", "endTime": "3700.345", "body": "And what has become so strange is the conversations happening on social media reflect those in real life. We are all getting black mirrored, so to speak, via the technology, the social technology that, that allows for this. I think it's deeply unnatural that both men and women can pull out their phone and have their choice of an infinity of options in the sexual marketplace, in the dating marketplace, short term, long term, no term, any term, monogamous, polyamorous, polygynous now. It's a thing. It's a thing." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3701.385", "endTime": "3725.975", "body": "That's deeply unnatural. We are we are made for having between six and eighteen to 24 total options in our lives, and we're meant to live maybe about thirty years or so, thirty five years, maybe tops in the wild, and and not die of natural causes as that's not a thing. That that's the world in which our bodies are are made. Our instincts are made for that world, and we're such a mismatch. So what is to be done?" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "3725.975", "endTime": "3732.31", "body": "The only thing I'll really push back on is the life expectancy, Cause I don't think the life expectancy was that short." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3733.51", "endTime": "3736.07", "body": "Whenever you mortality skews it pretty heavily." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3736.07", "endTime": "3737.35", "body": "Right? Yeah. It does. It does. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3737.35", "endTime": "3741.43", "body": "With the average. If you yeah. Yes. With the with half half of, infancy. Yes." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3741.43", "endTime": "3741.59", "body": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3741.675", "endTime": "3745.5151", "body": "So if you make it past age five, it's considerably longer if you only count that. But whatever." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "3745.5151", "endTime": "3745.7551", "body": "It's And" }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3745.7551", "endTime": "3757.17", "body": "if you also look at when the body They weren't living to be 90. Well, actually, no. And also the quality they were also the I don't think the quality of life was the same. I don't think that you were aging as gracefully. I I do think They" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "3757.17", "endTime": "3770.3699", "body": "were eating organic, getting in their 10,000 steps. They were doing everything we are supposed to do. You know? But yeah. I'm if when you look at the human body, it will absolutely stop working at a 120." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "3770.6648", "endTime": "3811.045", "body": "And that is possibly an evolutionary adaption to kind of prevent people living too long. And if you also look at happens when elderly people break their hip, the reason they do surgery is because three months static is a death sentence for really anyone over a certain age. But that also shows that if you're still moving, evolutionarily speaking, that's an indication you're still producing resources for the tribe. So I do think that that there would have been even if you look at, like, societies that are, you know, pre pre civilization, I don't know. The Inuit maybe, you know, you get some old people up there, and that's a pretty brutal harsh environment." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3811.29", "endTime": "3812.49", "body": "North South. I" }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "3812.8901", "endTime": "3814.09", "body": "I to take it back" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3814.09", "endTime": "3814.4102", "body": "to any" }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "3814.4102", "endTime": "3835.995", "body": "case, like, you know, there's just from speaking for myself, like, there's many different respect on this. We talked about the body count thing many times. And I feel like maybe something I've heard from US or that I've heard out there is like, yeah, this idea that like, you know, we have to sort of just get over it and like, you know, there's different, let me say it this way. There's different reasons that a man might care about this. One is just the sort of Evo bio right?" }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "3835.995", "endTime": "3874.45", "body": "Like we're just sort of hard coded to get this ick for like paternity reasons, etcetera. Another reason is that, okay, you hear this argument often that's like, well, it's actually statistically quite predictive of relationships not working out because whatever women lose their ability to pair bond or something based on the number of partners they've had. For me, it's actually a different reason. I don't get heard talked about a lot. For me, it's like, I also share the intuition West that like sex is sacred and it freaks me out the idea that somebody could so easily profane the sacred and that somebody who's inclined to that and capable of that merely through cultural forces." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "3874.45", "endTime": "3879.89", "body": "I don't know. Yeah. I feel like that like that. It's it's more of like what what it says about, like, her soul or something like that. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "3879.89", "endTime": "3880.53", "body": "It's just like" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "3880.77", "endTime": "3916.2952", "body": "So I also think there's a couple elements in here. And that that White Claw comment from the tweet we were originally talking about, I do think touches upon it because I think when when something is liberally given away and then something is withheld, that whole, like, oh, I I'm taking my time. I wanna get to know you first. I'm totally okay with that. But if, you know, you're you're could have you a lot of women, and I have been on the, put this in air quotes, good side." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "3916.615", "endTime": "3929.61", "body": "I've been on the good side where women look at the men in their life and they say, you know what? These guys are capable of a relationship. I'm gonna take my time with them. This guy, he's not really what I'm looking for in a relationship, so I'm gonna bang his brains out." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3929.69", "endTime": "3931.21", "body": "Oh, a 100%. Yes. If the" }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3931.21", "endTime": "3938.01", "body": "girl has sex with me on the first date, I am going to think less of her. But but it's So if she doesn't wanna do that, I'm like" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3938.25", "endTime": "3940.49", "body": "No no offense, Wes, but what the hell is wrong with you?" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "3942.285", "endTime": "3944.5251", "body": "What do you mean? If" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "3945.2449", "endTime": "3953.885", "body": "if she has if she has if she has, like, white hot desire for you from the get go and she will blow away all her standards for for you personally" }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "3954.6501", "endTime": "3955.6902", "body": "I don't believe she does." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "3955.6902", "endTime": "3959.53", "body": "I'm I'm no. No. That's not gonna happen. I'm gonna agree with Joshua on that because no. No." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "3959.53", "endTime": "4006.465", "body": "I'm I'm gonna totally agree with Joshua on that. In that what you would want for a woman who has any shade of gray towards promiscuous, and I would imagine 99% do on some level other than the virgins, is that you would want them to have far more carnal desire for you as the man they most desire. That is you know, if they say, I've never done this before, and then dive into a head first, that in my mind is much better than them, you know, having sex with random guys in the bathroom of a club, but when they're out on a date with you saying, oh, we need to we I wanna get to know you first. So I do think that you can have these situations where where explicit carnal desire is a positive signal. How you tell, I have no idea." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "4007.745", "endTime": "4022.8398", "body": "Okay. So if a girl tells you that she's never done that before, she has done that before. That's what that's what the point that I'm making. Yes. If I if I was omnipotent, if I had all knowledge and I knew that she was she she I was so irresistible to her that she was gonna break this standard that she's had her whole life." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "4022.8398", "endTime": "4027.4", "body": "She's not doing that with a guy on a first date, and I'm I'm the first. Wow. I would really feel impressed." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "4027.845", "endTime": "4028.165", "body": "But" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "4028.165", "endTime": "4039.845", "body": "when I say never done that before, I kinda I don't normally do this. You know, don't normally I'm being swept off my feet Right. Kind of thing. And look, she saying I've never done this before in my entire life? No." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "4039.845", "endTime": "4067.895", "body": "Of course not. But what she's indicating, and I'm sure some women are telling the truth when they say this, that they are surprised by the level of attraction they feel. And very often, as we all know for the downsides of the hookup society, is that, you know, you start hooking up with someone and then you hook up with them longer. And before you know it, you're in the pattern of a relationship, but you got into it based on how good the sex was, not how good of a fit they are. Right." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "4068.51", "endTime": "4089.955", "body": "Yeah. I mean, I agree that the ideal is that you want to have a unique connection, both physical and personality wise to your partner. And that means that you that prescribes different things for your relationship than it does for each of your relationships with other people. Of course, what I'm skeptical of is her ability to glean that on one date. How can she be so confident that I'm actually that so special to her on one date?" }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "4089.955", "endTime": "4099.7", "body": "So if I really believe from sort epistemics perspective that she can be that confident about me, then like, fine. Fair enough. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "4099.7", "endTime": "4102.42", "body": "If she's that easily manipulated, that makes me think she's" }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "4102.42", "endTime": "4103.7", "body": "Right. Easily It's far more" }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "4103.7", "endTime": "4109.4253", "body": "like And that when she's married to me in ten years, it's going to be a lot easier for her to be manipulated in the same time." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "4109.4253", "endTime": "4110.305", "body": "It's far more likely." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "4110.305", "endTime": "4114.705", "body": "Sometimes a girl is just fella, sometimes a gal is just horny, and you're there." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "4115.265", "endTime": "4117.025", "body": "Yeah. That's bad." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "4117.345", "endTime": "4118.305", "body": "And that's bad." }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "4118.705", "endTime": "4120.9453", "body": "It's bad. I like human ability." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "4120.9453", "endTime": "4121.4253", "body": "Is it the" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "4121.97", "endTime": "4123.33", "body": "Yeah. No. I'm gonna I'm gonna" }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "4123.41", "endTime": "4132.93", "body": "Hold on a second. Wait. I feel like we're saying how can you I feel like we we flip Josh, I feel like you flipped. Like, you're now the the guy who's doing the bad thing, who's right? Like, you're you're just Josh is likeness." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "4132.93", "endTime": "4137.1704", "body": "You're gonna be some future guy who's gonna try to marry her, and you will have been the corrupter." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "4137.6553", "endTime": "4170.025", "body": "I think so because nothing we have been doing is working. Often, when you want to create positive system wide change, one of the most effective techniques you can engage in is called embrace and amplify, where if this is the direction that things are heading, if we're ever to get over this, we have to go all the way through it. I wrote a piece for Human Events Daily a few months ago. I have to go at, like, 04:20 on the dot. It's my heart stop here at the time of recording." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "4170.025", "endTime": "4199.3247", "body": "But I wrote a piece on marriage, and I described the institution as in being in in its later stage. Well, we have to take it all the way to its terminal end as an institution, and it's going to look really weird. And on the other side of that, we can create that change. We have to embrace and amplify. So part of my own technique is to embrace and amplify this because while the solution is obviously repeal the nineteenth, never gonna happen." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "4199.405", "endTime": "4209.3247", "body": "That that is a I think that is a fantasy reality free zone. Anything that is let's just roll back women's rights and don't let them go to college. Never gonna happen. No. That's not gonna that's not gonna that's not gonna be a thing." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "4209.54", "endTime": "4232.775", "body": "So what do you do instead if the status quo is untenable? You embrace and amplify. You to use another metaphor, you knock the, chess game over or you engage in mutually assured destruction, the atomic diplomacy tech. Sorry. These are not, let's say, most upstanding moral recommendations if the morals you followed brought you to this, of what use were the morals?" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "4233.1753", "endTime": "4239.77", "body": "One of my favorite quotes, Joshua. I think we should end on that I feel like we just got to the most interesting thing." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "4239.77", "endTime": "4240.0103", "body": "Well, you'll" }, { "speaker": "Stony", "startTime": "4240.09", "endTime": "4246.65", "body": "No. Well, after after Joshua goes, I will I and West will happily debate Cody on the embrace and extend." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "4246.81", "endTime": "4254.6553", "body": "No. No. No. We we should save that. Maybe Josh can come back someday cause I don't wanna I don't wanna have the the the juicy interesting debate around that when he's not here to partake." }, { "speaker": "Cody", "startTime": "4254.6553", "endTime": "4257.775", "body": "So thanks so much for joining us, man. Really appreciate you being here." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "4258.095", "endTime": "4259.935", "body": "Yeah. Josh, it's my pleasure. Thank you guys for having me on." }, { "speaker": "Wes", "startTime": "4259.935", "endTime": "4269.36", "body": "Short notice too. Just messaged you a couple hours ago. So I really appreciate This will be interesting. Hopefully, the show will come out soon, and really, really appreciate it. Awesome awesome stuff." }, { "speaker": "Joshua", "startTime": "4269.6", "endTime": "4270.48", "body": "Sure thing. Thank you." } ] }