WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:07.020 Christian: Welcome to Design Meets Business, a show where design leaders talk 00:00:07.020 --> 00:00:11.610 about practical ways to quantify design, about making our work more transparent, 00:00:11.970 --> 00:00:15.180 and about how designers can make a bigger impact in their organization. 00:00:15.840 --> 00:00:19.380 I'm your host, Christian Vasile, and before we begin, I'd like to 00:00:19.380 --> 00:00:20.550 thank you for tuning in today. 00:00:23.305 --> 00:00:26.335 Today you will hear a great conversation with Alex Cuthbert, 00:00:26.725 --> 00:00:28.165 who is really a design legend. 00:00:28.165 --> 00:00:30.655 He's been in the industry for almost 30 years. 00:00:30.685 --> 00:00:36.745 And right now he's a Global Head of Design for Gojek, Indonesian unicorn, but has 00:00:36.745 --> 00:00:42.145 been with GoDaddy in the past, PicsArt and designed some of the basic fundamental 00:00:42.145 --> 00:00:43.495 technology of Google translate. 00:00:43.495 --> 00:00:46.135 So he's got products used by billions. 00:00:46.879 --> 00:00:50.300 He shares with us a lot about the work he's doing behind the scenes as a head 00:00:50.300 --> 00:00:54.710 of design, including how to frame design to the wider business and how to deal 00:00:54.710 --> 00:00:56.570 with features that trickle from the top. 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:00.230 Prepare your notebooks because today you'll need them. 00:01:03.660 --> 00:01:05.610 Alex welcome to Design Meets Business. 00:01:05.729 --> 00:01:10.560 You're a design powerhouse, having worked in the industry for almost 30 years. 00:01:10.560 --> 00:01:14.759 So it's crazy to think you've been around for so long and not only that 00:01:14.759 --> 00:01:18.330 you've been around, but that you've worked on products used by billions 00:01:18.330 --> 00:01:21.750 of people, whether that was Google translate or go daddy or now Go-Jek. 00:01:21.750 --> 00:01:25.080 So I think there are a lot of things that designers can learn from you. 00:01:25.080 --> 00:01:28.320 So I'm excited to have you on the show before we dive into the goods. 00:01:28.920 --> 00:01:31.350 Can you tell us a bit about your journey of becoming a designer, you know, 00:01:31.350 --> 00:01:34.740 working at Google, go that it go Jake, and about who you are a little bit. 00:01:35.729 --> 00:01:36.060 Alex: Yeah. 00:01:36.090 --> 00:01:37.560 Thank you so much, Christian. 00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:41.850 So I've had the privilege of working with a lot of the larger 00:01:41.850 --> 00:01:43.530 companies, as well as smaller ones. 00:01:43.530 --> 00:01:47.699 So Pixart as a startup, which is now one of the top creative platforms, 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:51.660 Google for a long time where I came in through an acquisition. 00:01:51.990 --> 00:01:55.410 And you know when people have what's your background telling 00:01:55.410 --> 00:01:56.699 the story of the companies. 00:01:56.699 --> 00:01:58.500 Isn't really the real story. 00:01:58.500 --> 00:02:03.059 The real story is that I've been passionate about how people think, 00:02:03.089 --> 00:02:07.499 what they believe, how their habits change over time for a long time. 00:02:07.499 --> 00:02:10.110 And that's what really got me into design. 00:02:10.199 --> 00:02:15.599 I was a computer science and Spanish double major, and then studied, um, human 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:18.180 computer interaction, cognitive science. 00:02:19.110 --> 00:02:23.280 Um, spatial cognition, how people perceive and represent space and a 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:26.970 lot of work on some of the earliest learning environments, collaborative 00:02:26.970 --> 00:02:32.460 tools that look a lot like things like Myro and slack for schools. 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:36.690 And so the foundational work in that really opened up my eyes to how 00:02:36.690 --> 00:02:39.330 people use tools to work together. 00:02:39.780 --> 00:02:43.380 And this collaborative nature of design is something that's really 00:02:43.380 --> 00:02:45.240 been inspiring to me because. 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:50.540 It takes a group of people working together, a product engineering design 00:02:50.540 --> 00:02:52.550 business to create something in the world. 00:02:53.030 --> 00:02:57.500 And a lot of times now that's used by groups and networks of people, either 00:02:57.500 --> 00:03:00.110 at the enterprise space or social media. 00:03:00.770 --> 00:03:05.090 And so really part of being a designer now is really understanding how 00:03:05.090 --> 00:03:09.830 networks of people intersect with culture technology and belief systems. 00:03:10.310 --> 00:03:13.640 And that's something that I, I, it really inspires me. 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:17.850 As a design leader to help uplift. 00:03:18.525 --> 00:03:21.975 Foster and bring into the, bring to life in the world. 00:03:22.725 --> 00:03:23.055 Christian: Yeah. 00:03:23.085 --> 00:03:24.885 Well, let's start there. 00:03:24.915 --> 00:03:28.965 You said design or it's a well-known quotes. 00:03:29.055 --> 00:03:30.555 Design is a team sport. 00:03:30.555 --> 00:03:34.935 So let's start there because we've been talking a lot on this podcast 00:03:34.935 --> 00:03:36.645 with other guests about fostering. 00:03:37.290 --> 00:03:41.710 Uh, trust mostly trust in organization with your product teams to be able to, to 00:03:41.940 --> 00:03:43.590 deliver better work together with them. 00:03:43.890 --> 00:03:46.470 But we've been talking mostly about it from the perspective 00:03:46.470 --> 00:03:47.850 of the individual contributor. 00:03:47.940 --> 00:03:51.180 So you, as a designer, you join, how can you build that trust? 00:03:51.180 --> 00:03:54.510 How can you foster those relationships with people in your team? 00:03:54.510 --> 00:03:57.990 So let's talk a little bit from the perspective of someone 00:03:57.990 --> 00:03:59.190 who's at a much higher level. 00:03:59.550 --> 00:04:01.380 Obviously you yourself needs. 00:04:02.220 --> 00:04:06.750 Relationships at your level, but how do you encourage and motivate and 00:04:06.750 --> 00:04:11.579 coach your teams can underneath you to do that relationship building and 00:04:11.670 --> 00:04:13.289 how to build trust with their teams. 00:04:14.459 --> 00:04:18.060 Alex: I've seen a lot of different models for management and you don't 00:04:18.060 --> 00:04:24.870 really know what a good manager is until you've had a bad manager and the manager 00:04:24.870 --> 00:04:29.340 really determines the quality of your life and reflects the culture of the. 00:04:30.540 --> 00:04:35.820 And it was very interesting coming into Go-Jek, which is collaborative consensus 00:04:35.820 --> 00:04:41.370 based very much, um, derivative of the Indonesian culture, which is a beautiful 00:04:41.370 --> 00:04:47.190 culture, proton Ryan, which is rising together in partnership and inclusivity. 00:04:47.550 --> 00:04:51.000 And Google also had that same approach early on. 00:04:51.409 --> 00:04:53.809 But perhaps with a bit more of an individual streak. 00:04:53.869 --> 00:04:58.009 And so that's where I developed my approach to manage. 00:04:58.834 --> 00:05:04.114 Which is, I'm not the strict father model with rules and evaluation. 00:05:04.144 --> 00:05:07.655 I'm very much a partner to people, it's more of the servant leader 00:05:07.655 --> 00:05:13.204 model and I'm really looking for how to identify people's strengths and 00:05:13.204 --> 00:05:18.124 amplify them rather than penalize them or highlight weaknesses. 00:05:18.155 --> 00:05:21.155 I think it is important to have constructive criticism for 00:05:21.155 --> 00:05:24.215 people and goals that people are held accountable for. 00:05:25.039 --> 00:05:27.500 But part of being a manager is inspiring people. 00:05:27.770 --> 00:05:33.020 It's creating a culture that people want to be part of that's purpose driven that 00:05:33.020 --> 00:05:37.849 has a clear sense of values mission, and, and it's gotta be ground up. 00:05:38.150 --> 00:05:43.760 And so that's why I, I, my management style is very much a partnership 00:05:43.760 --> 00:05:49.250 model of trying to figure out how I can help people identify the 00:05:49.250 --> 00:05:50.780 things that are they're uniquely. 00:05:51.784 --> 00:05:53.374 Uh, and amplify those. 00:05:53.944 --> 00:05:54.275 Yeah. 00:05:54.454 --> 00:05:57.064 Christian: So it's a matter of fitting puzzle pieces together, 00:05:57.094 --> 00:05:58.655 the best way they can fit. 00:05:58.684 --> 00:05:58.984 Right? 00:05:59.674 --> 00:05:59.944 Alex: Yeah. 00:05:59.944 --> 00:06:00.184 Yeah. 00:06:00.184 --> 00:06:04.624 And I mean, your topic of business and design is one of the areas 00:06:04.624 --> 00:06:07.004 that is something that I push on. 00:06:07.244 --> 00:06:11.204 So there are areas of growth that people may not have as primary 00:06:11.204 --> 00:06:16.514 strengths that I do think we need to develop as designers and the 00:06:16.514 --> 00:06:19.964 business element of that is a critic. 00:06:21.014 --> 00:06:21.794 Christian: Yeah, for sure. 00:06:22.154 --> 00:06:26.294 And we've had a lot of conversation again on the podcast about the 00:06:26.324 --> 00:06:30.734 differences between the different tracks of a designer, whether that's you go 00:06:30.734 --> 00:06:34.394 straight into that straight into, but as you grow, you go into management 00:06:34.424 --> 00:06:37.574 or maybe you stay as an individual contributor, but even an individual 00:06:37.574 --> 00:06:39.464 contributor can have different paths. 00:06:39.944 --> 00:06:43.054 Someone can stay more on the visual design side and 00:06:43.054 --> 00:06:44.554 that's entirely okay as well. 00:06:44.824 --> 00:06:48.544 And someone can go maybe to a bit more strategy or a strategic 00:06:48.544 --> 00:06:49.654 role and that's okay as well. 00:06:49.654 --> 00:06:52.084 So there are different parts and different strengths and 00:06:52.084 --> 00:06:53.344 weaknesses that everyone has. 00:06:53.344 --> 00:06:58.304 And I think let's go talk about that because one of the things 00:06:58.304 --> 00:06:59.624 that I truly believe in is that. 00:07:00.624 --> 00:07:05.844 Get to do your best work when you are put in a role where your skills 00:07:06.024 --> 00:07:08.964 or your best skills align with the work that's required of you. 00:07:09.414 --> 00:07:12.024 It alludes a little bit to what you said earlier about putting teams 00:07:12.024 --> 00:07:14.024 together in a way that it fits for them. 00:07:14.024 --> 00:07:17.294 So how do you work around people's strengths? 00:07:17.294 --> 00:07:20.594 How do you at that top of where you're sitting leading a design 00:07:20.594 --> 00:07:21.704 organization, how do you put. 00:07:22.714 --> 00:07:24.314 Do you change teams around? 00:07:24.314 --> 00:07:28.304 Do you know, how do you assess who's good at what w how does that happen? 00:07:28.664 --> 00:07:31.844 Alex: Yeah, I mean, I think I would answer that question by starting 00:07:31.844 --> 00:07:35.324 with sort of how this has changed over time, because you're right. 00:07:35.324 --> 00:07:38.054 I've been part of the technology industry for 30 years. 00:07:38.354 --> 00:07:40.634 I started programming at age 16. 00:07:41.309 --> 00:07:46.289 Trying to recreate asteroids, not very successfully as a computer geek. 00:07:46.649 --> 00:07:52.349 Um, and I think that when I first joined Google, you had to have a computer science 00:07:52.349 --> 00:07:55.529 degree to be part of Google's design team. 00:07:55.799 --> 00:08:00.569 It was very much a technical organizational with a design focus. 00:08:00.899 --> 00:08:05.219 And I'd say over time, it's really shifted to, we have much more specialization. 00:08:06.014 --> 00:08:08.474 We have motion design, we have illustration. 00:08:08.774 --> 00:08:12.734 And so there's a merge this way that you can become specialists. 00:08:13.274 --> 00:08:17.924 And so a lot of teams and companies are hiring these general designers and 00:08:17.924 --> 00:08:21.384 then creating pathways for specialists. 00:08:21.444 --> 00:08:25.914 And so I'm a big proponent of having a individual contributor path all the way 00:08:25.914 --> 00:08:31.404 up to the highest levels in the company and having CX strategists that are senior 00:08:31.404 --> 00:08:34.314 IC level people working individually. 00:08:35.299 --> 00:08:40.499 I created a studio at Go-Jek, which has high-level designers in it that are 00:08:40.499 --> 00:08:46.109 doing two levels of work, the vision and, and acceleration of key projects. 00:08:46.769 --> 00:08:51.419 And that enables other designers to have access to senior designers. 00:08:51.449 --> 00:08:55.889 So one of the ways that I, we create this sort of growth path and help 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:59.789 people is through mentorship programs and access to senior designer. 00:09:00.675 --> 00:09:05.925 And so from that, you're getting a mix of people with different skillsets and 00:09:05.925 --> 00:09:08.234 people can learn 3d motion graphics. 00:09:08.264 --> 00:09:09.884 They can learn about UX writing. 00:09:09.915 --> 00:09:13.064 They can figure out the latest illustration tools they 00:09:13.064 --> 00:09:14.624 can understand prototyping. 00:09:15.224 --> 00:09:19.034 And so I think it's important to have a foundation in all of 00:09:19.034 --> 00:09:20.685 these elements as a designer. 00:09:20.984 --> 00:09:24.104 Um, even if you're going to be a specialist in one area, really knowing 00:09:24.104 --> 00:09:27.094 the other parts of the craft is. 00:09:28.875 --> 00:09:32.895 And so I think, you know, how you identify those was that part of your question. 00:09:34.755 --> 00:09:37.574 I have maybe not identified all of your questions, maybe 00:09:37.574 --> 00:09:40.005 Christian: there's yeah, I think there's something you said there that would be 00:09:40.005 --> 00:09:43.455 interesting to continue building on, which is that studio that you created at Go-Jek. 00:09:44.819 --> 00:09:46.110 I heard that idea before. 00:09:46.110 --> 00:09:47.550 We'll talk a bit about it. 00:09:47.579 --> 00:09:50.880 What's what are the particular aspects of the studio? 00:09:50.880 --> 00:09:53.640 How does it work on a daily basis and how do you choose people 00:09:53.640 --> 00:09:55.260 to kind of run it in a way? 00:09:55.920 --> 00:09:56.670 Alex: Yeah, it's interesting. 00:09:56.670 --> 00:09:58.590 We had a studio at Google. 00:09:58.590 --> 00:10:02.340 It was New York and it was more of a marketing creative studio. 00:10:02.340 --> 00:10:05.130 And you would just try to get those people to work with you. 00:10:05.400 --> 00:10:09.870 So if you had a cool project, they would pick it up and Google translate 00:10:09.870 --> 00:10:12.090 with its instant camera translation. 00:10:12.959 --> 00:10:18.270 Um, that's something that was humanly exciting to be able to 00:10:18.510 --> 00:10:22.410 instantly read texts, to have real time conversations with people 00:10:22.410 --> 00:10:23.880 that don't speak your language. 00:10:24.750 --> 00:10:30.360 And it was very marketing focused and the studio Go-Jek is different. 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.510 It is marketing and product focused. 00:10:33.510 --> 00:10:36.420 So we're really looking at this end to end journey of how. 00:10:37.725 --> 00:10:41.745 Whatever is put out as promotional material integrate 00:10:41.775 --> 00:10:43.785 into the product experience. 00:10:43.785 --> 00:10:45.074 So the end to end journey. 00:10:45.765 --> 00:10:50.295 And so as part of that initiative we've got two parallel groups. 00:10:50.295 --> 00:10:53.505 One's the studio, which is really doing innovation work 00:10:53.535 --> 00:10:55.035 and accelerating key projects. 00:10:55.055 --> 00:10:58.155 Then we have another group called the creative council, which is 00:10:58.155 --> 00:11:02.834 really a blend of our creative lab that creates the video content. 00:11:02.834 --> 00:11:05.295 The crazy beautiful Go-Jek. 00:11:06.344 --> 00:11:10.814 Visuals that you see, um, and then marketing with the regional 00:11:10.814 --> 00:11:15.314 leads and design and visual identity from the design team. 00:11:15.324 --> 00:11:20.144 So those groups coming together to think about the brand identity, what our 00:11:20.144 --> 00:11:24.464 differentiators are in the marketplace, and really what people remember and 00:11:24.464 --> 00:11:25.964 think about when they use the product. 00:11:27.075 --> 00:11:30.315 Christian: So we already started talking about the work that you do 00:11:30.315 --> 00:11:36.075 as a design leader of such a large organization, let's keep on that topic. 00:11:36.075 --> 00:11:41.305 What else is there that you do on a daily basis that maybe people lower down, maybe 00:11:41.305 --> 00:11:44.244 individual contributors don't really know that much about, but obviously there's a 00:11:44.244 --> 00:11:48.774 lot of work happening at that C level that we don't really get to hear a lot about. 00:11:48.774 --> 00:11:49.994 So what's that like?. 00:11:50.704 --> 00:11:53.754 Alex: Well, I think, you know, over time I've gotten more involved in. 00:11:54.699 --> 00:11:59.229 And so leading the, some of the brand work for GoTo financial, which is our 00:11:59.229 --> 00:12:04.989 PayPal equivalent and beyond for financial inclusivity and empowerment of people. 00:12:05.319 --> 00:12:09.669 And then recently we've been looking at Go-Jek and as a global brand 00:12:09.669 --> 00:12:12.299 and how we can elevate Go-Jek and. 00:12:13.165 --> 00:12:13.314 Yeah. 00:12:13.374 --> 00:12:16.555 A unified brand architecture that resonates with people in 00:12:16.555 --> 00:12:19.944 different regions like Vietnam, what's cultural embeddedness, 00:12:19.944 --> 00:12:21.354 and relevance look like there. 00:12:21.805 --> 00:12:25.884 So there's this north star work that I spend, um, some of my 00:12:25.884 --> 00:12:28.795 time on to shape that direction. 00:12:28.795 --> 00:12:32.004 And so this is really setting, working with the executive. 00:12:32.035 --> 00:12:37.525 The business leads, the, the setting this direction for the company. 00:12:38.155 --> 00:12:41.514 And I think that's balanced by a lot. 00:12:42.279 --> 00:12:46.569 Sort of design reviews and technical details on interaction 00:12:46.569 --> 00:12:48.939 design at a product level. 00:12:48.939 --> 00:12:53.229 So we have maybe 20 different product teams working each with their own. 00:12:54.069 --> 00:12:55.659 Streams and reviews. 00:12:55.989 --> 00:13:00.789 And then with a team that says large, as we have a hundred fifty, a hundred 00:13:00.789 --> 00:13:06.489 seventy five or more people, we are continually hiring, interviewing, 00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:08.829 trying to move resources around. 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:16.479 So as a manager, a lot of this is figuring out how to meet the needs of product teams 00:13:16.479 --> 00:13:21.429 with a limited set of resources, how to optimize those resources financially. 00:13:22.464 --> 00:13:24.954 And sometimes that involves centralizing teams. 00:13:24.984 --> 00:13:30.504 So we have a group of centralized teams, um, and then balancing that with product 00:13:30.504 --> 00:13:32.694 design and our design systems team. 00:13:32.904 --> 00:13:36.834 And so there's a number of moving pieces that I'm calibrating to try to 00:13:37.204 --> 00:13:41.135 reduce our expenses and costs as much as possible while making sure there's enough 00:13:41.135 --> 00:13:44.194 capacity to meet the product team needs. 00:13:45.275 --> 00:13:47.975 Christian: It sounds like a lot of the work that you're doing is what in 00:13:47.975 --> 00:13:52.155 our organization is known as design ops, the operation side of design. 00:13:52.455 --> 00:13:56.895 And I would assume that your managers are playing a key part of this. 00:13:56.895 --> 00:14:01.245 So if obviously they, they have to be experienced and know what they're doing 00:14:01.245 --> 00:14:03.285 to be able to take on such responsibility. 00:14:03.285 --> 00:14:06.855 So do we tend to promote from the inside or you do tend to hire from 00:14:06.855 --> 00:14:10.545 the outside, what's the process to find those key managers who 00:14:10.545 --> 00:14:11.985 can help you run the operator? 00:14:12.814 --> 00:14:16.925 Alex: Yeah, well, so Avenade who was the head of design and who hired 00:14:16.925 --> 00:14:21.604 me along with Bruce, the CPO and Kevin, um set up a design ops team. 00:14:21.604 --> 00:14:26.885 So we do have a design ops group within Go-Jek that manages our design 00:14:26.885 --> 00:14:32.974 principles, our process, our hiring our all hands and a number of different 00:14:32.974 --> 00:14:36.724 things, including the studio speakers series, where I bring in external 00:14:36.724 --> 00:14:39.185 speakers to talk on various topics. 00:14:40.474 --> 00:14:44.554 It's really critical to have a design ops team with an organization that 00:14:44.554 --> 00:14:46.414 large, to be able to manage this. 00:14:47.134 --> 00:14:51.934 Um, and each of the, I started off with 22 direct reports, which was 00:14:51.934 --> 00:14:57.184 not sustainable and we've reorganized the team to have that smaller and 00:14:57.184 --> 00:14:58.594 a little bit more hierarchical. 00:14:59.254 --> 00:15:03.754 And those people are responsible for the business metrics for helping 00:15:04.084 --> 00:15:06.064 with the hiring for identify. 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:10.329 And directing the project stream. 00:15:10.359 --> 00:15:16.889 So we've got a row a level of, directors that are responsible for all of these 00:15:16.889 --> 00:15:18.509 things that I described as well. 00:15:19.560 --> 00:15:24.060 Christian: You said there was a head of design there before you, and I assumed 00:15:24.060 --> 00:15:28.949 that that meant that design had some sort of a buy-in already at the highest level, 00:15:29.729 --> 00:15:35.025 eh, You wrote an article though on how to get that buy in at a highest level and 00:15:35.025 --> 00:15:37.364 how to talk about design at the C level. 00:15:37.395 --> 00:15:41.895 And I can imagine a lot of designers, maybe not necessarily even design 00:15:41.895 --> 00:15:46.545 leaders, just individual contributors, joining maybe smaller companies where. 00:15:47.185 --> 00:15:48.894 They haven't yet bought into design. 00:15:49.314 --> 00:15:51.894 So let's talk a bit about that article and some of those learnings 00:15:51.894 --> 00:15:54.925 that people could get from that things they could apply, things 00:15:54.925 --> 00:15:59.364 they could try to do to bring design into the light at that higher level. 00:15:59.724 --> 00:16:03.484 Um, we're obviously also put the article in the show notes afterwards, 00:16:03.484 --> 00:16:06.394 so people can really thoroughly, but let's just walk through some of those 00:16:06.394 --> 00:16:08.314 paths that you have outlined there. 00:16:09.454 --> 00:16:09.724 Alex: Yeah. 00:16:09.724 --> 00:16:13.294 So Albany is, we have three companies within go-to, so there's 00:16:13.294 --> 00:16:15.354 go check go-to financial and Tokyo. 00:16:16.254 --> 00:16:20.484 So Albany, it's the head of design for go-to financial and go pay. 00:16:20.904 --> 00:16:23.004 And I'm running the a Go-Jek team. 00:16:23.514 --> 00:16:24.534 I see ahead. 00:16:24.984 --> 00:16:29.844 So we have another head of design for taco pedia, Momo, um, Monica. 00:16:29.904 --> 00:16:33.354 And so we work together to set the culture. 00:16:33.384 --> 00:16:37.165 We're still, we're integrating the cultures of Tokyo pedia, and 00:16:37.734 --> 00:16:39.714 Go-Jek so that's a separate topic. 00:16:40.044 --> 00:16:43.104 Uh, yeah, but I would say in terms of. 00:16:43.990 --> 00:16:48.609 Promoting the value and impact of design to the senior level. 00:16:49.959 --> 00:16:51.280 We've done a number of things. 00:16:51.280 --> 00:16:55.149 So we, we produced an executive summary, which highlights 00:16:55.179 --> 00:16:56.889 the work across the teams. 00:16:57.250 --> 00:17:02.230 What I've found is that executives rarely read documents and so you 00:17:02.230 --> 00:17:07.720 need to present them in some way., Synthesize to what are the key decisions? 00:17:07.800 --> 00:17:13.159 It's not as much a status update as here are the things in motion that you 00:17:13.159 --> 00:17:18.649 could provide feedback on and add value, because that's really what I'm looking 00:17:18.649 --> 00:17:23.239 for is not to just showcase how great design is and the impact we're having. 00:17:23.239 --> 00:17:27.679 I'm looking to bring them in and empower the senior leadership team 00:17:27.679 --> 00:17:29.810 to provide input on things in most. 00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:34.629 And so that's the real goal of these executive summaries. 00:17:34.660 --> 00:17:38.560 I typically send them out some, sometimes with a loom recording where I will talk 00:17:38.560 --> 00:17:41.680 over it so they could just play it while they're having coffee in the morning. 00:17:42.370 --> 00:17:47.560 Um, and because I found at Google, if you presented at you might 00:17:47.560 --> 00:17:48.760 not even make it past slide. 00:17:50.014 --> 00:17:54.455 And an executive level presentation, but the executives will watch a video. 00:17:54.875 --> 00:17:55.294 Right? 00:17:55.804 --> 00:17:56.135 Right. 00:17:56.165 --> 00:17:59.135 So as soon as the video starts playing, people will watch that. 00:17:59.645 --> 00:18:04.805 And having been side railed in executive reviews, At slide 00:18:04.835 --> 00:18:06.965 two, about 10 slide deck. 00:18:06.995 --> 00:18:11.005 I've learned that you need to get everything in upfront including the 00:18:11.005 --> 00:18:14.395 visuals because people will, if it's too long, a story, people are like, well, 00:18:14.395 --> 00:18:15.625 what is, show me what it looks like? 00:18:15.715 --> 00:18:16.855 Cause there's designers. 00:18:17.215 --> 00:18:20.515 We want to represent things visually to people so they can get 00:18:20.515 --> 00:18:22.765 a sense of how it feels and looks. 00:18:23.935 --> 00:18:27.355 And that's, you know, I wrote a little bit about that in the article of 00:18:27.355 --> 00:18:30.745 how we are visual people, creatures. 00:18:30.745 --> 00:18:32.025 We respond visually to. 00:18:32.890 --> 00:18:37.990 And as designers, we can leverage that to our advantage and the benefit of 00:18:37.990 --> 00:18:39.820 the people that were presenting here. 00:18:40.783 --> 00:18:40.993 Christian: Yeah. 00:18:40.993 --> 00:18:45.493 So executive summary deliver it really, really fast and think about 00:18:45.493 --> 00:18:48.723 who your stakeholder is they're busy, they don't want to read, so try to 00:18:48.723 --> 00:18:51.723 deliver something that they would actually want to watch in that case. 00:18:53.298 --> 00:18:53.928 Alex: It's interesting. 00:18:53.928 --> 00:18:55.278 There's different cultures. 00:18:55.338 --> 00:18:58.728 Um, so Go-Jek is a reading culture. 00:18:58.728 --> 00:19:01.938 There's some famous articles about this, whether it's a talking culture or 00:19:01.938 --> 00:19:06.138 a reading culture and go check, we'll have silent meetings with executives 00:19:06.138 --> 00:19:10.368 for the first 15 minutes that everybody reads the document and comments. 00:19:10.368 --> 00:19:11.448 And there's silence. 00:19:12.018 --> 00:19:16.698 I love this because it's really acknowledging the busy pace of 00:19:16.998 --> 00:19:20.448 meetings that we have, and it gets everybody on the same page. 00:19:20.478 --> 00:19:21.318 There's a history of. 00:19:22.548 --> 00:19:24.108 GoDaddy was very different. 00:19:24.108 --> 00:19:28.908 It was much more of a discussion culture where meetings would 00:19:28.908 --> 00:19:35.658 decisions would be talked through, reached consensus or other manner. 00:19:36.228 --> 00:19:41.208 And that was really the record of how the leadership there built 00:19:41.208 --> 00:19:45.678 consensus and alignment was through these meetings with discussions. 00:19:46.248 --> 00:19:46.518 Yeah. 00:19:46.668 --> 00:19:49.138 So very different cultures, pros and cons. 00:19:50.343 --> 00:19:53.103 Christian: So in case you don't have access to the executives in your 00:19:53.103 --> 00:19:58.653 company, how can you on a daily basis on the ground show the value of design? 00:20:00.243 --> 00:20:03.693 Alex: Yeah, I think, you know what you brought up before about understanding 00:20:03.903 --> 00:20:10.233 your audience and what they need and the language they speak is really important. 00:20:11.073 --> 00:20:15.423 So typically designers are working with product managers and engineers. 00:20:16.998 --> 00:20:17.658 Triad. 00:20:17.688 --> 00:20:23.118 And so really just understanding the goals and needs of those different 00:20:23.118 --> 00:20:25.248 roles is a great starting point. 00:20:25.278 --> 00:20:31.158 I started off as an engineer for 10 years, doing developer tools and compilers and 00:20:31.878 --> 00:20:36.588 for Silicon graphics, primarily, which is the campus where Google sits now. 00:20:37.218 --> 00:20:37.638 And. 00:20:38.688 --> 00:20:42.168 Yeah, really understanding that as an engineer, you guys typically want 00:20:42.168 --> 00:20:46.698 to be protected from product changes for at least a two week period. 00:20:46.968 --> 00:20:50.298 So this is sort of the agile model of iteration. 00:20:50.298 --> 00:20:52.128 Where does designs are locked? 00:20:52.158 --> 00:20:53.538 Engineers work on them. 00:20:53.598 --> 00:20:58.458 Design can go off and explore and develop the next set product can then come 00:20:58.458 --> 00:21:01.548 in and reprioritize because there's. 00:21:02.843 --> 00:21:06.833 Direction that product is working toward, which is the first lunch designed. 00:21:06.833 --> 00:21:11.213 Typically in the best case scenario has a vision for a longer term 00:21:11.213 --> 00:21:15.443 solution and is working back towards the MVP and engineering. 00:21:15.443 --> 00:21:19.553 And the best case is considering that long-term solution and building 00:21:19.553 --> 00:21:23.123 an architecture that is flexible and scalable enough to support. 00:21:24.003 --> 00:21:27.363 The changes and the product direction. 00:21:27.843 --> 00:21:28.053 Yeah. 00:21:28.083 --> 00:21:33.213 And so those dynamics are a key piece of understanding how to show the impact of 00:21:33.213 --> 00:21:36.843 design is that's just the starting point. 00:21:36.873 --> 00:21:39.483 That's like you have to be in relationship to the needs of the 00:21:39.483 --> 00:21:42.993 people around you, and we can talk a bit more about how to show impact 00:21:42.993 --> 00:21:44.823 within that dynamic, if you want to, 00:21:45.393 --> 00:21:45.843 Christian: for sure. 00:21:45.873 --> 00:21:46.623 Yeah, go ahead. 00:21:46.713 --> 00:21:46.953 Go for it. 00:21:47.973 --> 00:21:48.273 Alex: Yeah. 00:21:48.303 --> 00:21:53.613 So I think within that dynamic, we're really looking at how to bring 00:21:54.123 --> 00:21:56.193 principal design into the process. 00:21:56.733 --> 00:22:01.863 So I continually get feedback from designers that either their PM is too 00:22:01.863 --> 00:22:06.993 directive and basically drawing the wire frames or they are not specific 00:22:06.993 --> 00:22:09.303 enough and setting a kind of general. 00:22:10.338 --> 00:22:10.638 Yeah. 00:22:10.818 --> 00:22:15.198 And I'm my response to that is we need to have strategies to deal 00:22:15.198 --> 00:22:19.908 with both of those situations and they both afford great benefit. 00:22:19.968 --> 00:22:23.958 It tends to be the senior PM's give the more general goal. 00:22:23.958 --> 00:22:27.498 I remember Susan would just ski gave us a goal in travel for UX, 00:22:27.498 --> 00:22:31.128 which was come back in two months and show me what you recommend for 00:22:31.128 --> 00:22:33.708 the query warm places to go in. 00:22:34.729 --> 00:22:35.029 Wow. 00:22:36.169 --> 00:22:40.909 And so that's very general for like it's launched, you know, pricing on Google 00:22:40.909 --> 00:22:44.539 maps, it launched Google flights out of that, a number of different things. 00:22:45.709 --> 00:22:52.189 And the counterpoint to that as someone who's drawing the wireframes for you. 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:56.839 And so as designers we're are, our role is really to tease out 00:22:56.839 --> 00:22:58.399 the hypotheses and assumptions. 00:22:59.229 --> 00:23:04.419 Behind that to figure out the use cases and the scenarios come up with 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:09.819 design principles, questions that help us from a neutral position, 00:23:09.819 --> 00:23:12.489 almost look at the pros and cons. 00:23:12.969 --> 00:23:15.999 And I do think we need to make recommendations as designers, but it 00:23:15.999 --> 00:23:21.759 should be based on this analysis of fit between the solutions and the. 00:23:23.020 --> 00:23:25.810 Christian: I'd like to build upon what you said there and continue the 00:23:25.810 --> 00:23:30.759 discussion of what happens when someone, whether it's a PM or someone even 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:35.139 higher up the organization gives you the recipe and says, this is what we need. 00:23:36.475 --> 00:23:40.314 And you said, you know as designers, we're supposed to, to unpack that, to 00:23:40.314 --> 00:23:44.034 ask questions and to try to understand what's the hypothesis behind that. 00:23:44.544 --> 00:23:49.584 I think that as designers, especially maybe early on in your career, you maybe 00:23:49.584 --> 00:23:50.934 don't have the confidence to do that. 00:23:50.934 --> 00:23:53.905 But I find that to be such an important thing to do, where if 00:23:53.905 --> 00:23:55.044 a feature trickles down from. 00:23:55.750 --> 00:23:59.340 Just to feature not a need but in exact feature, I think it's your 00:23:59.340 --> 00:24:01.290 responsibility to start asking questions. 00:24:01.530 --> 00:24:02.340 Why we're doing this. 00:24:02.340 --> 00:24:03.600 What's not working at the moment. 00:24:03.600 --> 00:24:04.710 Why are you trying to change it? 00:24:04.950 --> 00:24:07.671 How would this change the lives of our customers. 00:24:07.941 --> 00:24:10.911 And one question that I've heard, and I think I could be wrong. 00:24:11.211 --> 00:24:13.041 I think it comes from base camp. 00:24:13.521 --> 00:24:18.261 They said that whenever someone comes with the feature from the top, the question 00:24:18.261 --> 00:24:24.531 they're asking is how are people today doing that same thing with work around. 00:24:25.396 --> 00:24:25.666 Right. 00:24:25.666 --> 00:24:28.966 So instead of you as a product, having to create the feature, how 00:24:28.966 --> 00:24:32.286 are people kind of innovating by themselves to work around the product, 00:24:32.286 --> 00:24:33.756 to do exactly that that thing. 00:24:33.756 --> 00:24:37.686 And that can also teach you a lot about well, ways of solving the problem, 00:24:37.686 --> 00:24:39.366 but also is this really required? 00:24:39.576 --> 00:24:41.136 Do we really need to prioritize this right now? 00:24:41.166 --> 00:24:43.806 Because apparently customers can figure out a different way and 00:24:43.806 --> 00:24:45.036 maybe we have other priorities. 00:24:45.036 --> 00:24:47.946 So there are a lot of questions that you should ask and you, you 00:24:47.946 --> 00:24:51.826 have to ask as a designer rather than just blindly following. 00:24:52.761 --> 00:24:55.041 What's being given to you from the top. 00:24:55.071 --> 00:24:58.611 And I think you a lot, you also wrote an article about this in, you 00:24:58.611 --> 00:25:00.471 mentioned the last customer syndrome. 00:25:00.471 --> 00:25:02.701 I think you called it when a feature trickles from the top. 00:25:02.911 --> 00:25:03.841 Let's talk a bit about that. 00:25:03.841 --> 00:25:05.251 What is the last customer syndrome? 00:25:05.791 --> 00:25:07.521 Alex: Yeah, that was, um, that was. 00:25:08.596 --> 00:25:12.046 In the enterprise space, typically where we're trying to get these big 00:25:12.076 --> 00:25:16.666 customers on board and you need to build a couple of features specific to 00:25:16.666 --> 00:25:18.856 them, for them to sign the contract. 00:25:18.916 --> 00:25:23.746 And so that dynamic of do you just go build those features? 00:25:25.726 --> 00:25:30.856 And the responsive newness that a team needs to pivot to be able to do that. 00:25:31.426 --> 00:25:35.086 Um, I do the answer is yes, you probably do need to do that. 00:25:35.086 --> 00:25:37.546 How you go about it is the key, right. 00:25:38.146 --> 00:25:43.666 And thinking of the generalized ability of it and how it can become something. 00:25:43.666 --> 00:25:44.786 That's the. 00:25:45.901 --> 00:25:49.471 More applicable to a wide group is a problem that people 00:25:49.471 --> 00:25:50.851 in agencies face, right? 00:25:50.851 --> 00:25:54.061 And as you're an agency lead, you want to build products eventually, 00:25:54.451 --> 00:25:55.951 but you need to serve your clients. 00:25:56.011 --> 00:26:01.531 And so this is a common problem that I think design and in engineering 00:26:01.531 --> 00:26:03.571 and partnership can drive. 00:26:03.601 --> 00:26:06.631 This is this partnership between design and engineering, for 00:26:06.631 --> 00:26:12.361 scalability components, design systems, modular functional architecture 00:26:12.361 --> 00:26:14.011 is really the basis to the. 00:26:14.746 --> 00:26:18.046 The approach for this type of scenario. 00:26:18.556 --> 00:26:22.036 Um, but coming back, there's variations of that, of last customer syndrome. 00:26:22.036 --> 00:26:27.046 There is, uh executives coming up with ideas that they drop in. 00:26:27.616 --> 00:26:32.076 And when I was at Pixar working for Havana Savoy on who's one of my 00:26:32.076 --> 00:26:37.056 favorite CEOs and people, because most of his ideas were right. 00:26:37.086 --> 00:26:40.446 So if you're going to be doing this as a CEO, it really helps to be right. 00:26:42.066 --> 00:26:42.486 And. 00:26:43.806 --> 00:26:48.036 You know, when you're working for somebody who is coming directly to your designers 00:26:48.036 --> 00:26:49.326 and saying, Hey, what about this? 00:26:50.226 --> 00:26:52.716 And that's the CEO talking to a junior designer. 00:26:52.716 --> 00:26:55.566 They come over to me and are like, Hey, what should I do? 00:26:56.256 --> 00:26:56.586 Yeah. 00:26:56.676 --> 00:26:57.186 And 00:26:57.396 --> 00:26:58.326 Christian: valid question. 00:26:58.806 --> 00:26:59.496 What should you do? 00:26:59.976 --> 00:27:00.456 Right. 00:27:01.026 --> 00:27:05.406 Alex: Well, the first thing is you ask him why he thinks it's a good idea, cause 00:27:05.406 --> 00:27:07.866 he probably has a good reason for it. 00:27:08.376 --> 00:27:09.366 And then you mock that up. 00:27:10.176 --> 00:27:12.536 And so the designer went back and did that. 00:27:12.546 --> 00:27:15.336 Of course, he had a great idea for the thing, reason for it. 00:27:15.636 --> 00:27:19.686 And she's like, but I'm seeing this data that says this other 00:27:19.686 --> 00:27:20.826 approach might be better. 00:27:21.396 --> 00:27:22.326 What should I do? 00:27:22.386 --> 00:27:25.656 And I was like, well, why don't you put them side by side with the 00:27:25.656 --> 00:27:27.996 data and take them back to him. 00:27:29.346 --> 00:27:33.036 And so he went in and actually in this case, looked at it and he looked at the 00:27:33.036 --> 00:27:35.136 data and he's like, oh, you're right. 00:27:35.136 --> 00:27:36.156 We should test this. 00:27:36.396 --> 00:27:37.626 And you might actually be. 00:27:39.091 --> 00:27:40.831 And a few weeks later, she came running back. 00:27:41.101 --> 00:27:46.561 I was like, oh my God, the data showed that this other approach was better. 00:27:47.041 --> 00:27:52.831 And the CEO said that we should go with my idea and she was ecstatic about this. 00:27:52.891 --> 00:27:53.161 And. 00:27:55.296 --> 00:27:58.446 So that gets back to how do you empower these designers? 00:27:58.596 --> 00:27:58.896 Right? 00:27:58.896 --> 00:28:00.186 How do you empower people? 00:28:00.516 --> 00:28:03.996 And so that's the whole data, the pros and cons, the principle 00:28:03.996 --> 00:28:08.916 design pieces that come together so that it's not like your us versus 00:28:08.916 --> 00:28:11.226 them or your idea versus my idea. 00:28:11.736 --> 00:28:15.516 It's really, which of these ideas have life, right? 00:28:15.516 --> 00:28:16.476 Which of these have life? 00:28:16.746 --> 00:28:17.646 And I love Dave. 00:28:17.646 --> 00:28:23.001 Um, and so Bosky, who's a, uh, One of the Disney illustrator who talks 00:28:23.001 --> 00:28:27.621 about this spiral of creativity and how at Disney, they wouldn't talk 00:28:27.621 --> 00:28:30.161 about Christian's idea or Alex's idea. 00:28:30.181 --> 00:28:33.601 They would talk about this idea on its own. 00:28:33.601 --> 00:28:35.011 How can I add to it? 00:28:35.041 --> 00:28:39.301 How can I give it life and power on its own to grow? 00:28:39.301 --> 00:28:44.371 And this is a very different mindset than critiquing things. 00:28:45.316 --> 00:28:49.156 And so I take this as an interesting piece because we have design critiques, right. 00:28:49.186 --> 00:28:54.046 Which we go around and we kind of they're based on the head of the studio walking 00:28:54.046 --> 00:28:58.066 around and everyone would be silent and they would give their feedback. 00:28:58.066 --> 00:29:04.246 And it's kind of like the baking shows now is the current example, but this idea 00:29:04.246 --> 00:29:08.956 of like blessing and adding to things is a very different culture than a critique. 00:29:09.886 --> 00:29:13.246 And so I think this is something for us to look at as designers 00:29:13.246 --> 00:29:15.136 and builders of culture. 00:29:16.236 --> 00:29:18.256 Christian: We had a, another head of design on a previous 00:29:18.256 --> 00:29:19.666 episode talking about critiques. 00:29:19.666 --> 00:29:25.906 And he said, what he's successfully done is change the narrative around design 00:29:25.906 --> 00:29:28.336 critiques, because it is what you call it. 00:29:28.426 --> 00:29:31.396 And the moment you call it a design critique, it'll automatically have 00:29:31.396 --> 00:29:34.006 some sort of a negative connotation because critique is a negative 00:29:34.006 --> 00:29:37.966 connotation word and said, we started just by calling it design. 00:29:38.846 --> 00:29:42.436 And then automatically the mentality around what's supposed 00:29:42.436 --> 00:29:46.876 to happen in those conversations has changed from this is not good. 00:29:46.876 --> 00:29:50.866 And I don't like this and too will have you thought about this or, oh, we 00:29:50.866 --> 00:29:54.196 could add this on top of it or, Hey, I remember this idea, another product 00:29:54.196 --> 00:29:55.666 that I've tried, we could do this. 00:29:55.936 --> 00:29:59.486 So it changed from a critique to a much more positive conversation. 00:30:00.511 --> 00:30:04.981 Ended up helping the product teams and the designers do better work. 00:30:04.981 --> 00:30:08.341 Because I remember when you go into critiques, you cannot go into the 00:30:08.341 --> 00:30:11.421 Lion's Den, then don't you think, oh, someone will, will pick out a piece 00:30:11.421 --> 00:30:15.361 and we'll tear it apart and it's not a comfortable situation to be in. 00:30:15.421 --> 00:30:18.151 And if you've been through a lot of them as a more experienced 00:30:18.151 --> 00:30:19.051 designer, that's fine. 00:30:19.411 --> 00:30:22.716 But in the beginning of your career, It's hard to go in one of those 00:30:22.716 --> 00:30:25.536 and think that everyone is there to just tear your design apart. 00:30:25.536 --> 00:30:29.286 So even changing the conversation around what's supposed to happen in those 00:30:29.796 --> 00:30:32.476 chats he found to be very, very good. 00:30:33.406 --> 00:30:33.646 Alex: Yeah. 00:30:33.646 --> 00:30:38.656 I think I would add onto that and save it a lot of designers when they first 00:30:38.686 --> 00:30:43.186 come into reviews or chats, or even just presenting their work to anybody. 00:30:43.186 --> 00:30:43.486 Talk about. 00:30:44.511 --> 00:30:45.771 Here's the thing that happens. 00:30:45.771 --> 00:30:49.791 And then you click on this and then you go there and then this says this, and if they 00:30:49.791 --> 00:30:53.061 click and that's not particularly helpful. 00:30:53.571 --> 00:31:00.501 Um, so I, I think when we're thinking about chats within the design team, it's 00:31:00.501 --> 00:31:03.441 sort of like scrum stand-ups informal. 00:31:03.861 --> 00:31:04.551 That's great. 00:31:04.551 --> 00:31:10.036 But I think when we're sharing back to product or even executive level, 00:31:10.306 --> 00:31:14.236 we need to really think in terms of this like problem action result 00:31:14.236 --> 00:31:19.276 or situation, the stem models, and really be focusing in on what are the 00:31:19.276 --> 00:31:23.956 problems we're solving and what are the design decisions that we're making. 00:31:24.286 --> 00:31:29.956 Because a lot of the focus needs to go on those critical points, 00:31:29.986 --> 00:31:31.456 the pieces of understanding. 00:31:32.356 --> 00:31:36.406 That are required by customer to take an action that we've 00:31:36.406 --> 00:31:38.566 created, uh, in a situation. 00:31:39.526 --> 00:31:45.676 And without that, you're getting story and process without the why 00:31:45.706 --> 00:31:49.126 you're getting the, how without the what, and the quickest way to turn 00:31:49.126 --> 00:31:54.946 off product and executives is to talk about how yeah, and we need to 00:31:54.946 --> 00:31:59.416 learn to focus and frame what we're doing and the problems we're solving. 00:32:00.346 --> 00:32:03.376 More effectively as we present our work. 00:32:03.916 --> 00:32:04.966 Christian: Yeah, for sure. 00:32:05.626 --> 00:32:08.746 And I think there's also a lot of components are that you've mentioned in 00:32:08.746 --> 00:32:13.576 the past, which is in the past, it sounds like we've known each other for 10 years. 00:32:13.576 --> 00:32:14.956 I met previously, not in the past. 00:32:15.616 --> 00:32:19.526 And you've mentioned that example from someone bringing data and then kind 00:32:19.526 --> 00:32:23.066 of proving the CEO that there might be a different way of doing this. 00:32:23.456 --> 00:32:26.036 I find data and analytics to be. 00:32:26.816 --> 00:32:29.456 A, an ally of the design team. 00:32:29.846 --> 00:32:34.286 If you understand data bit better, or if you have a product analyst 00:32:34.286 --> 00:32:38.546 or an analytics team, and you have continuous conversations with them, 00:32:39.236 --> 00:32:42.596 they can help you inform your decisions. 00:32:42.656 --> 00:32:45.866 Obviously we already know this, but they can also help you whenever 00:32:45.866 --> 00:32:49.316 you present your work, they can help you frame your work in a 00:32:49.316 --> 00:32:51.266 different light rather than here's. 00:32:51.266 --> 00:32:52.106 Here's what I've done. 00:32:52.136 --> 00:32:55.046 Tell me all your subjective opinions about the I can do better. 00:32:55.931 --> 00:32:57.281 Versus here's what I've done. 00:32:57.311 --> 00:32:58.001 Here's why. 00:32:58.061 --> 00:32:59.411 And here's the data to back it up. 00:32:59.561 --> 00:33:01.511 It's a different two different conversations there. 00:33:02.441 --> 00:33:03.191 Alex: Yeah, it's interesting. 00:33:03.191 --> 00:33:08.021 I think, um, there, there was a shift maybe five years ago and I think it 00:33:08.021 --> 00:33:09.851 was driven by Facebook analytics. 00:33:09.911 --> 00:33:14.641 We were at Pixar, we were partnering with them and really focusing on 00:33:14.641 --> 00:33:18.181 these high performance users, we call them super users at the time. 00:33:18.181 --> 00:33:21.091 And the idea was like very analytics driven. 00:33:21.421 --> 00:33:22.681 Let's see what they're doing. 00:33:23.386 --> 00:33:26.686 What their patterns of interaction are, how they're doing these workarounds 00:33:26.686 --> 00:33:31.366 that you described, and then trying to clean up those friction points. 00:33:32.026 --> 00:33:35.596 And this became, this was a buzz for a while because it turned out that those 00:33:35.596 --> 00:33:40.246 friction points, if you clean, if you fit, identified them and fix them also 00:33:40.246 --> 00:33:44.806 helped other users who are just starting to engage with the platforms or tools. 00:33:45.556 --> 00:33:48.916 And so this really elevated the power of analytics. 00:33:49.846 --> 00:33:53.596 Um, because the results we were getting were far beyond anything that 00:33:53.596 --> 00:33:55.366 we were getting through AB testing. 00:33:56.196 --> 00:33:59.676 It was very valuable to just see, like you said, how are people 00:33:59.676 --> 00:34:02.736 doing work arounds for things? 00:34:02.736 --> 00:34:04.876 And one of the examples was at Pixar. 00:34:04.906 --> 00:34:09.076 We had a tool for creating on your photos who picks hearts of one 00:34:09.076 --> 00:34:13.666 of the, is the top photo editing, collaborative photo editing tool that 00:34:13.666 --> 00:34:15.796 lets you make these quick edits, right? 00:34:15.856 --> 00:34:19.786 You can quickly on your mobile phone, do this crazy beautiful stuff. 00:34:19.786 --> 00:34:21.946 Headache 10% of the traffic or something like that. 00:34:21.946 --> 00:34:27.526 Going to Instagram at the time was coming through Pixar and we looked 00:34:27.526 --> 00:34:30.736 at what these super users were doing and they turned out to be first of 00:34:30.736 --> 00:34:33.856 all, totally different people than we had targeted as our core users. 00:34:35.471 --> 00:34:40.211 And then the things that they were doing repetitively, the tools 00:34:40.211 --> 00:34:42.071 were not supporting very well. 00:34:42.071 --> 00:34:45.851 It wasn't remembering fonts and colors you used previously. 00:34:46.631 --> 00:34:48.461 And so updating those. 00:34:49.246 --> 00:34:52.366 To make it easier for that group made it easier for people who 00:34:52.366 --> 00:34:56.536 are just discovering how to use the functionality of these tools. 00:34:56.656 --> 00:35:01.246 And so it's it's the equivalent would be search results or at Go-Jek 00:35:01.276 --> 00:35:05.986 remembering that the place that you go to or send things to it's these quick 00:35:05.986 --> 00:35:12.586 little one touch, magical things that happen that add efficiency, delight, 00:35:13.426 --> 00:35:15.736 and convenience to the experience. 00:35:16.741 --> 00:35:16.921 Yeah, 00:35:16.921 --> 00:35:19.831 Christian: I think those words that you said, efficiency, delight, convenience. 00:35:19.861 --> 00:35:20.711 Those are. 00:35:22.156 --> 00:35:26.086 As they're supposed to, you don't notice them as a user when they don't work, 00:35:26.176 --> 00:35:28.816 as they're supposed to that's when you notice them and they irritate you. 00:35:28.846 --> 00:35:32.056 So it's kind of a bit of a thankless job, like, oh, you've done. 00:35:32.056 --> 00:35:36.196 Well, nobody notices, but you haven't done well, everyone throws a tantrum. 00:35:36.196 --> 00:35:40.876 So I, uh I use Go-Jek on a daily basis and I, for example, the remembering 00:35:40.876 --> 00:35:44.206 your location and all of those, those, I noticed them as a product person, 00:35:44.206 --> 00:35:45.856 but I bet that most people don't. 00:35:46.576 --> 00:35:47.506 And that's okay. 00:35:47.566 --> 00:35:48.346 That's a good thing. 00:35:48.376 --> 00:35:51.706 As long as they have a frictionless experience with the product, that's great. 00:35:51.856 --> 00:35:52.876 That's here, which 00:35:52.876 --> 00:35:53.416 Alex: are well done. 00:35:53.986 --> 00:35:54.166 Yeah. 00:35:54.166 --> 00:35:58.156 And I think as a designer, you know, noticing those things is important and 00:35:58.156 --> 00:36:03.706 we see the world very differently from the way other people do, because we're 00:36:03.706 --> 00:36:09.496 aware of the visual details, the layouts of things, the balance what's primary. 00:36:09.796 --> 00:36:14.536 And so I recently did a lot of field testing when I was in Indonesia. 00:36:15.556 --> 00:36:19.306 I still have not been able to send cookies to my admin. 00:36:19.306 --> 00:36:22.176 I've been working on this for a long time. 00:36:22.186 --> 00:36:24.526 It turns out it's really hard when you're in a different city 00:36:24.526 --> 00:36:26.536 to send gifts to people, right. 00:36:26.776 --> 00:36:28.456 And there are workarounds. 00:36:28.456 --> 00:36:33.406 You can set your location to be in that city and then sends stuff and 00:36:33.436 --> 00:36:37.576 looking at Ramadan, we're trying to promote sending gifts to people. 00:36:38.416 --> 00:36:40.936 And they may be in other locations. 00:36:40.936 --> 00:36:46.486 So figuring out how do we make that as easy as possible, culturally embedded, 00:36:46.486 --> 00:36:48.466 linked to these special occasions. 00:36:49.396 --> 00:36:53.686 And I remember my first time, one of my first times using go send for the 00:36:53.686 --> 00:36:55.966 addresses are very long in Indonesia. 00:36:56.206 --> 00:36:56.476 Yeah. 00:36:56.506 --> 00:36:56.836 Right. 00:36:57.166 --> 00:37:01.936 And they're hard to tell apart until I'd sent something to my 00:37:02.176 --> 00:37:04.366 boss, Bruce, the CPO's house. 00:37:04.576 --> 00:37:06.946 And I was trying to send another package to somebody. 00:37:07.876 --> 00:37:12.526 Put pasted the address in, and the one that came up was actually the previous 00:37:12.526 --> 00:37:16.606 address, but because they were so large and looked similar, I thought it was 00:37:16.606 --> 00:37:18.076 just an auto-correct for the address. 00:37:18.076 --> 00:37:22.726 If I said that package and Bruce was like, Hey, I think I just received a package 00:37:22.726 --> 00:37:24.766 from you with a bunch of things in it. 00:37:24.826 --> 00:37:27.286 I was like, oh, that was close to go to the other house. 00:37:28.206 --> 00:37:32.456 And so, that's that kind of friction, there's a workaround for that. 00:37:33.161 --> 00:37:34.121 There is a workaround. 00:37:34.121 --> 00:37:36.791 You can just check and make sure the address is correct. 00:37:37.391 --> 00:37:37.811 Right. 00:37:37.841 --> 00:37:41.651 But really what you want is you want the convenience or even a label 00:37:41.651 --> 00:37:46.211 that says the person's name or the time that you last sent to that 00:37:46.211 --> 00:37:50.201 location, or even just a simple, this is history and not a correction. 00:37:50.861 --> 00:37:56.201 So, and I think the challenge for us as designers is that there may 00:37:56.201 --> 00:37:57.941 not be a big measurable impact. 00:37:58.721 --> 00:38:00.341 To the business metrics for that. 00:38:00.671 --> 00:38:04.601 If we updated that and put to that work, we may not see that. 00:38:04.601 --> 00:38:07.901 But like you said, all those inconveniences, those friction 00:38:07.901 --> 00:38:12.911 points that determines whether it's a world-class experience or not. 00:38:13.661 --> 00:38:18.071 And at that point, we're getting into customer sentiment. 00:38:18.221 --> 00:38:19.781 We're getting into these metrics. 00:38:19.781 --> 00:38:23.111 It is measurable, but it may not be like a click-through rate kind of. 00:38:23.791 --> 00:38:28.951 And so I think design, we need to advocate for these customer metrics, these brand 00:38:28.951 --> 00:38:33.881 related kinds of attributes of on demand. 00:38:33.881 --> 00:38:34.271 It feels. 00:38:35.321 --> 00:38:37.451 You know, delight is sort of a lie. 00:38:37.481 --> 00:38:39.161 I wish we had a better word for delight. 00:38:39.671 --> 00:38:42.191 I like how marketing talks, where they talk about soul 00:38:42.191 --> 00:38:43.721 inspiring and mind blowing. 00:38:44.091 --> 00:38:47.781 So we need something between delight and soul inspiring. 00:38:48.261 --> 00:38:53.181 Um, as a way to talk about the value we provide by making 00:38:53.181 --> 00:38:59.151 things seamless, frictionless, um, that's a challenge for our. 00:39:00.711 --> 00:39:05.706 Christian: I mentioned this on the podcast in the past of how you show the 00:39:05.706 --> 00:39:09.846 importance of some of these brand related changes that don't necessarily impact 00:39:09.846 --> 00:39:13.536 the bottom line and how we can convince people that these are important too. 00:39:13.896 --> 00:39:15.276 And the story goes like this. 00:39:15.696 --> 00:39:19.446 I had the entire product team in the observation room of 00:39:19.446 --> 00:39:20.736 our usability testing lab. 00:39:20.766 --> 00:39:25.256 I was in the room with the customer and we gave her a task. 00:39:26.141 --> 00:39:27.701 A menial task. 00:39:28.001 --> 00:39:28.561 We were tested. 00:39:28.561 --> 00:39:32.441 We would try to experiment with something new and she got so frustrated 00:39:32.771 --> 00:39:34.151 that she couldn't complete the task. 00:39:34.151 --> 00:39:35.441 Obviously the design wasn't good enough. 00:39:36.011 --> 00:39:41.681 And she got her face, got red, she got angry, visibly frustrated, visibly angry, 00:39:41.711 --> 00:39:43.151 kind of took it out on me a little bit. 00:39:43.151 --> 00:39:44.261 Cause I was the only one in the room. 00:39:45.101 --> 00:39:48.941 Anyway, deflating the situation she goes, we say, thank you all of that. 00:39:49.331 --> 00:39:49.631 And. 00:39:50.666 --> 00:39:51.896 We had an issue. 00:39:52.076 --> 00:39:55.046 We had a fix for that issue shipped within a week. 00:39:55.826 --> 00:39:58.376 It was not something that would impact the bottom line. 00:39:58.406 --> 00:40:02.096 It was not something that would make a dent in the universe, but with the 00:40:02.096 --> 00:40:06.566 product team being in the other room and noticing the effect that our product 00:40:06.566 --> 00:40:09.836 has on the well-being of customers. 00:40:10.136 --> 00:40:14.096 That was enough of an example for them to say, this needs to be prioritized 00:40:14.096 --> 00:40:15.746 because if this happened in a controlled. 00:40:16.636 --> 00:40:19.636 In here, it will happen out in the wild as well. 00:40:19.636 --> 00:40:23.926 So sometimes bringing product teams or even executives. 00:40:23.926 --> 00:40:27.136 We had testing sessions with executives coming into the observation room, 00:40:27.136 --> 00:40:30.646 just putting their head in and seeing what's happening and changing their 00:40:30.646 --> 00:40:32.776 perspective on what we need to prioritize. 00:40:32.776 --> 00:40:35.806 Just because they've seen a customer struggle with something or just 00:40:35.806 --> 00:40:38.986 because they've seen a customer have a really good time with something else. 00:40:39.256 --> 00:40:42.046 So I find testing to be really good testing with, with your whole 00:40:42.046 --> 00:40:43.366 productive, not just you as a designer. 00:40:44.246 --> 00:40:44.426 Alex: Yeah. 00:40:44.426 --> 00:40:45.806 I remember the GoDaddy. 00:40:45.806 --> 00:40:49.046 The one time I could get the CEO's attention, Scott at the end of 00:40:49.046 --> 00:40:50.186 the day was at the end of the day. 00:40:50.186 --> 00:40:53.966 And I'd show him some of the research from the customers that we've done. 00:40:53.966 --> 00:40:57.806 And he's, he said to me, he's like, you know, this is the most valuable 00:40:57.806 --> 00:41:03.086 part of my day, seeing customers and their interactions with the product. 00:41:03.716 --> 00:41:05.456 And you're right for engineering too. 00:41:05.456 --> 00:41:09.976 I've had engineers sit in the room doing testing and talking, and they're 00:41:09.976 --> 00:41:11.746 like, why aren't they clicking on the. 00:41:12.496 --> 00:41:13.426 But that's right there. 00:41:13.606 --> 00:41:19.846 I built the button and you know this sort of disconnect between like, 00:41:20.026 --> 00:41:24.556 they could not understand why this person did not understand that. 00:41:24.736 --> 00:41:27.076 And I, that's kind of how I got into design too. 00:41:27.076 --> 00:41:28.816 I was working for a John Kevin. 00:41:29.701 --> 00:41:33.331 Who was, uh, the adventure of basic programming language. 00:41:33.331 --> 00:41:36.271 And he was Einstein's research assistant, did all his math. 00:41:36.841 --> 00:41:39.811 And I remember coming in sometimes and he would have the mouse in the 00:41:39.811 --> 00:41:42.691 trash can and he would be like, I don't understand this mouse thing. 00:41:44.081 --> 00:41:46.001 The keyboard is so much more powerful. 00:41:46.001 --> 00:41:47.591 Why do people use the mouse? 00:41:47.921 --> 00:41:48.251 Right. 00:41:48.311 --> 00:41:53.921 And a lot of his friends who were, you know, aerospace engineers, and I 00:41:53.921 --> 00:41:57.551 remember doing a design review in a says, not once with somebody who wanted 00:41:57.551 --> 00:42:01.901 to talk to me in their airplane about the tools I was building for modeling, 00:42:01.901 --> 00:42:03.041 and they didn't understand them. 00:42:03.341 --> 00:42:07.451 So I was an engineer and these very smart people who were not 00:42:07.451 --> 00:42:10.511 computer science, people couldn't understand the things that I was. 00:42:11.851 --> 00:42:14.951 And this really got me to think about how do we create things 00:42:14.951 --> 00:42:21.341 that work with the mental models, the language that people have. 00:42:21.341 --> 00:42:24.921 And this is true for learning and middle-school kids who are the most 00:42:25.071 --> 00:42:27.591 ruthless user testers you have ever seen. 00:42:28.251 --> 00:42:31.341 Um, they will just break and repurpose, whatever you build. 00:42:31.941 --> 00:42:35.381 And I think it's so eyeopening because you start realizing. 00:42:36.896 --> 00:42:40.886 The way people use technology is not in a controlled room, in an environment 00:42:41.786 --> 00:42:45.116 it's socially, they're going to get their friends to help them. 00:42:45.116 --> 00:42:47.906 They're going to add a go daddy, setting up sites. 00:42:47.906 --> 00:42:49.646 It's not typically the business owner. 00:42:49.646 --> 00:42:50.966 It's like the nephew. 00:42:50.996 --> 00:42:55.406 Who's going to go in there and do something with the DNRs record. 00:42:55.406 --> 00:43:02.276 And, and so there's this understanding that the tools we build are used by groups 00:43:02.276 --> 00:43:07.851 of people, communities, friends, family, Is one of the ways we can shift this 00:43:07.851 --> 00:43:11.541 dialogue, because I think as designers, what we're trying to do here is we're 00:43:11.541 --> 00:43:20.301 trying to frame and shift the dialogue to be not just customer centered, but human 00:43:20.691 --> 00:43:23.061 we're trying to build a human solutions. 00:43:23.061 --> 00:43:24.501 And I really loved that. 00:43:24.501 --> 00:43:25.251 Go jacks. 00:43:25.521 --> 00:43:29.301 Um, essence brand essence now is heart and technology. 00:43:29.631 --> 00:43:30.321 And it's important. 00:43:30.321 --> 00:43:31.671 Heart is first, right? 00:43:31.671 --> 00:43:33.711 Because we're really trying to figure it out. 00:43:34.461 --> 00:43:39.851 How do we connect and support entrepreneurs, drivers, restaurants how 00:43:39.851 --> 00:43:45.371 do we help people that are at different stages with their business succeed? 00:43:45.371 --> 00:43:48.671 And that's how you provide the best customer service is by helping 00:43:48.671 --> 00:43:52.211 these entrepreneurs, giving them the tools and empowering them. 00:43:52.841 --> 00:43:57.491 And so I think that's the other valuable shift we need to make as designers is 00:43:57.521 --> 00:44:01.241 this shift in discussion and framing for the problems that we're solving. 00:44:02.711 --> 00:44:05.591 Christian: There's also on top of what you said, there's also the context in which 00:44:05.591 --> 00:44:06.941 people use the products we're building. 00:44:07.391 --> 00:44:08.861 Maybe it's outside in the sun. 00:44:08.891 --> 00:44:13.901 Maybe it's a, when they can't con here, cause it's in the silent, room 00:44:13.961 --> 00:44:16.791 or whatever, is it called of a train which is why it's so important to 00:44:17.301 --> 00:44:21.321 test your products in as many ways as you can outside of your office. 00:44:21.771 --> 00:44:24.351 How would this work when I'm on a train? 00:44:24.351 --> 00:44:25.641 How would this work when I'm on a plane? 00:44:25.941 --> 00:44:26.781 How would this work? 00:44:26.781 --> 00:44:30.231 When there are a lot of people around me who are talking out loud and I want 00:44:30.231 --> 00:44:34.911 to meditate or do my Duolingo lesson or whatever it is, it's so interesting that. 00:44:35.971 --> 00:44:40.351 We're at the moment, we're kind of only thinking in a box, like what you imagining 00:44:40.351 --> 00:44:44.551 people sitting with our products, the way we see with our products and that 00:44:44.551 --> 00:44:45.511 couldn't be further away from the 00:44:45.511 --> 00:44:45.841 Alex: truth. 00:44:46.291 --> 00:44:46.531 Yeah. 00:44:46.531 --> 00:44:47.941 You said you were in Indonesia. 00:44:47.971 --> 00:44:48.691 I'm curious. 00:44:48.691 --> 00:44:52.351 Having spent the last few months there, riding around on a motorcycle 00:44:52.351 --> 00:44:53.791 on the back of Go-Jek scooter. 00:44:56.356 --> 00:44:58.526 Are you riding around on a motorcycle or a scooter? 00:44:58.786 --> 00:45:00.046 Christian: I have my own motorcycle. 00:45:00.046 --> 00:45:00.256 Yeah. 00:45:00.286 --> 00:45:01.666 I use Go-Jek on a daily basis. 00:45:01.666 --> 00:45:03.556 It's a fundamental part of my life here. 00:45:03.606 --> 00:45:06.606 Alex: I was curious do you use Google maps while you're driving 00:45:06.606 --> 00:45:07.566 around on your motorcycle? 00:45:08.556 --> 00:45:11.496 Christian: Well, most of the time I ride to places. 00:45:11.496 --> 00:45:11.826 I know. 00:45:11.826 --> 00:45:16.566 So not any more, but if it so happens that I do, yes, I use Google maps and 00:45:16.566 --> 00:45:21.216 I put it on my watch so I can get the directions on my watch while I ride. 00:45:21.516 --> 00:45:22.086 Alex: Interesting. 00:45:22.086 --> 00:45:22.206 Yeah. 00:45:22.236 --> 00:45:26.406 Cause I I've been riding around on one of the scooters with the phone in 00:45:26.406 --> 00:45:30.816 the little scooter pocket has like, we're talking about contextual uses. 00:45:32.211 --> 00:45:36.831 It's not loud enough with all of the scooter noise around you. 00:45:36.831 --> 00:45:39.801 And so it really, if somebody had tested this, they would have been like, oh, we 00:45:39.801 --> 00:45:44.481 need a motorcycle speaker system volume. 00:45:44.481 --> 00:45:49.161 It needs to be amped up like double or 1.5 when it is. 00:45:49.191 --> 00:45:51.201 So you for you to hear it turn left, turn. 00:45:51.201 --> 00:45:51.501 Right. 00:45:52.161 --> 00:45:52.731 And 00:45:53.391 --> 00:45:54.741 Christian: yeah, I think that's a 100% 00:45:55.341 --> 00:45:56.661 Alex: visceral example. 00:45:57.876 --> 00:46:00.066 Understanding people in contexts, right? 00:46:00.096 --> 00:46:01.206 Christian: Yeah, for sure. 00:46:02.316 --> 00:46:06.486 All right, Alex, we're I really wish we'd had more time, but we don't. 00:46:06.486 --> 00:46:10.746 So I'll just go straight to the, the end of podcast questions that we ask everyone. 00:46:11.196 --> 00:46:14.346 And, uh maybe one day we'll bring you back on again, because I think this 00:46:14.346 --> 00:46:16.476 conversation could continue for hours. 00:46:16.476 --> 00:46:19.746 So a first question is what is one soft skill that you wish 00:46:19.776 --> 00:46:21.066 more designers would possess? 00:46:23.311 --> 00:46:24.451 Alex: The one-stop scale. 00:46:24.451 --> 00:46:28.741 I wish designers would possess is succinct business communication. 00:46:29.581 --> 00:46:29.941 That's 00:46:29.971 --> 00:46:31.771 Christian: that, that was very succinctly delivered. 00:46:32.911 --> 00:46:33.091 Alex: Yeah. 00:46:33.121 --> 00:46:37.351 We tell a lot of stories and it's possible to tell a story, but it needs to be 00:46:37.351 --> 00:46:39.391 short, have a message on a punchline. 00:46:40.831 --> 00:46:44.791 This goes back to what I was talking about before, which is the, how versus 00:46:44.791 --> 00:46:48.511 the, what as designers and researchers. 00:46:49.201 --> 00:46:50.411 Our process is very. 00:46:51.321 --> 00:46:55.701 Uh, we'd like to bring people along on that journey so that they 00:46:55.701 --> 00:46:59.151 have the context to understand our decisions and the value of the output. 00:47:00.111 --> 00:47:02.661 But I think we actually need to turn that around on its head. 00:47:02.661 --> 00:47:08.331 I'd start from the problems we're solving, the actions we're taking and the results. 00:47:08.421 --> 00:47:11.121 And we've in the context where it makes sense. 00:47:11.661 --> 00:47:15.981 And this is the shift I'm talking about for having more 00:47:15.981 --> 00:47:17.751 succinct business community. 00:47:18.801 --> 00:47:20.901 Christian: And I think it's important to set at the end. 00:47:20.901 --> 00:47:25.461 They're weaving the rest of the context, because if you just come in and say, 00:47:25.461 --> 00:47:28.401 here's a problem we're solving, and here's a, here's the design that we're 00:47:28.401 --> 00:47:32.341 proposing people might have something to say about that because it's kind of 00:47:32.341 --> 00:47:36.091 subjective the way you've solved the problem, but that's how you, that's 00:47:36.091 --> 00:47:37.801 where you need to add some of your pro. 00:47:38.381 --> 00:47:42.311 To kind of show we've got to this result in a, in a way, 00:47:42.311 --> 00:47:43.751 in a mathematical way, right? 00:47:43.751 --> 00:47:47.661 If this it's a process, we didn't just pull it out of a drawer of somewhere. 00:47:47.661 --> 00:47:51.771 So I find that little nuance to be very important as well. 00:47:53.361 --> 00:47:56.361 The other one is what is one piece of advice that has changed 00:47:56.361 --> 00:47:57.651 your career for the better? 00:48:00.141 --> 00:48:03.651 Alex: Yeah, one of my friends and my manager at Google when I first 00:48:03.651 --> 00:48:06.351 got there with Simon Smith and. 00:48:07.661 --> 00:48:10.271 I remember him giving me a post-it on it. 00:48:10.331 --> 00:48:12.641 That said the word simplify. 00:48:13.571 --> 00:48:13.871 Right. 00:48:15.191 --> 00:48:18.881 And so I think it's really just understanding that 00:48:18.911 --> 00:48:21.221 people do one thing at a time. 00:48:21.941 --> 00:48:29.441 It's very much a mobile first bind set of focus, simplicity, sequence of 00:48:29.441 --> 00:48:31.481 things that you can do with one thumb. 00:48:33.069 --> 00:48:36.219 And as designers, we have a lot of context. 00:48:36.879 --> 00:48:40.929 We have a lot of knowledge of patterns. 00:48:41.109 --> 00:48:45.249 We think about all the dimensions of the experience. 00:48:46.179 --> 00:48:49.929 And we explained things a lot. 00:48:50.229 --> 00:48:54.939 We ran some AB tests to go Jack showing that actually our conversational 00:48:55.119 --> 00:49:01.479 tone in some cases, Connection relate-ability but in others, it 00:49:01.479 --> 00:49:03.939 detracted from people getting things done. 00:49:04.179 --> 00:49:07.629 And we're shifting our tone as part of the brand work to be a 00:49:07.629 --> 00:49:10.299 little bit more action oriented. 00:49:11.289 --> 00:49:15.309 And that's showing actually a business outcome and conversion 00:49:15.879 --> 00:49:20.589 in specific situations that are critical to the user of. 00:49:22.219 --> 00:49:24.589 Christian: Alex, where can people find out more about you get in touch 00:49:24.589 --> 00:49:27.289 with you, read up your stuff and 00:49:27.289 --> 00:49:28.219 Alex: any of that good stuff? 00:49:28.679 --> 00:49:33.929 I wrote, maybe I wrote a lot of papers in the early days on learning technology. 00:49:34.439 --> 00:49:39.229 And I think while those were 20 years ago, I think I should bring. 00:49:40.250 --> 00:49:44.600 Some of that into the dialogue now, because it's really the anchor 00:49:44.600 --> 00:49:46.490 points for things like slack. 00:49:46.520 --> 00:49:52.250 Myro a lot of the collaborative tools we were doing foundational work in those 00:49:52.250 --> 00:49:59.330 areas at that time at UC Berkeley and the other learning technology groups, Sri. 00:50:00.200 --> 00:50:03.350 And so I think, you know, I really appreciate you reaching out to me 00:50:03.350 --> 00:50:07.190 for this podcast because this is a great way to get information out. 00:50:07.220 --> 00:50:08.299 People can listen to this. 00:50:09.259 --> 00:50:10.970 Um, it's very accessible. 00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:12.560 They can play it while they're cooking. 00:50:13.310 --> 00:50:14.089 Right, right. 00:50:14.779 --> 00:50:19.910 And so I really liked this format and thank you for reaching out. 00:50:19.910 --> 00:50:25.700 I think this is a great way to get that kind of information out in a way 00:50:25.700 --> 00:50:32.060 that people can relate to experiences anecdotes versus, uh, some of the articles 00:50:32.060 --> 00:50:34.399 that are need to be more polished. 00:50:35.404 --> 00:50:35.705 Right. 00:50:36.148 --> 00:50:38.098 Christian: We'll put your LinkedIn in the show notes, so 00:50:38.098 --> 00:50:39.898 anyone can, uh, connect with you. 00:50:39.898 --> 00:50:42.838 And if you have any follow up questions there, they're welcome 00:50:42.838 --> 00:50:47.518 to, to get in touch and maybe, uh, build another conversation like this. 00:50:47.788 --> 00:50:51.268 Yeah, I wanna, yeah, Alex, this has been amazing. 00:50:51.298 --> 00:50:55.468 Thank you very much once again, for being part of the show and we will be. 00:50:56.308 --> 00:50:56.668 All right. 00:50:56.848 --> 00:50:57.568 Alex: Thank you, Christian. 00:51:00.898 --> 00:51:02.128 Christian: That's a wrap for today. 00:51:02.398 --> 00:51:06.058 I hope you found this episode useful and that you've learned something that you're 00:51:06.058 --> 00:51:07.768 ready to implement at work tomorrow. 00:51:08.338 --> 00:51:11.398 If you've enjoyed this as always, it would mean the world to me. 00:51:11.428 --> 00:51:14.338 If you'd share it with your community, if you'd leave a review. 00:51:14.458 --> 00:51:18.268 And of course, if you'd remember to tune in for the next one, peace.