{ "version": "1.0.0", "segments": [ { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "0.16", "endTime": "36.97", "body": "I still speak to so many HR people who are pretty much doing things the way they did in the nineteen nineties. And and in part because I think a lot of the leaders that they're working with are still the same leaders from the nineteen nineties. So it will change, but it's wonderful when you see HR teams who are out there leading the way, challenging things, doing things in very different ways, experimenting and piloting, and having the confidence to to really push back on these established norms and these established wisdom that we've lived with for for two, you know, twenty, thirty, forty, you know, years." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "41.545", "endTime": "67.69", "body": "Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. And this is the podcast where I talk to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. Please follow Rate and review Good Morning HR wherever you get your podcast. You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or at goodmorninghr.com." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "68.01", "endTime": "104.915", "body": "I'm joined today by Lucy Adams. Lucy is the CEO at Disruptive HR, a UK based consultancy helping business leaders understand the latest trends in people leadership and apply them in practical ways to make positive things happen in their organizations. Before starting disruptive HR over a decade ago, Lucy was the HR director at the BBC during one of its most turbulent periods. Her career also includes time in government services and the legal field. Lucy is a popular keynote speaker and author of HR disrupted." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "105.155", "endTime": "116.93", "body": "Her latest book, the HR change toolkit, your complete guide to making it happen is available on Amazon and I will share the link in the show notes. Welcome to good morning HR, Lucy." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "117.090004", "endTime": "119.57", "body": "Oh, thank you so much for inviting me." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "120.21", "endTime": "133.985", "body": "So, your first book was HR disruptive Disrupted and your second book is the HR Change Toolkit. So, is how organizations identify, attract, develop, incentivize and mobilize employees that broken?" }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "135.68001", "endTime": "147.92001", "body": "Broken is a very strong word. Right? But I do think that and and I by the way, everything I criticize in my book about the HR profession, I have done. There's no I agree. Ground here." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "147.92001", "endTime": "175.98001", "body": "Okay? But I do think that HR has been driven by a number of assumptions that has not helped its credibility. I think it's led to it not having the impact that it could have had. And I believe that HR is still, know, ten years on since setting up disruptive HR. I think it's still in need of a good overhaul." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "176.3", "endTime": "188.615", "body": "And yeah, so that's what the books aim to do is to not just make the case that it needs a good overhaul, but to also give HR leaders and practitioners the kind of tools to do it." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "189.095", "endTime": "207.05501", "body": "What do you think, you talk about overhaul and how much of that is systems, procedures, priorities, those kind of things versus the actual people sitting in the HR offices and their skills and competencies?" }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "207.29501", "endTime": "238.405", "body": "Yeah. I mean, maybe I'll come to the HR profession and the people that are in it in a little while. But but first of all, think because I think it's both. But I think your first point is that a lot of what we've done and what we continue to do in HR is driven by the need to ensure conformity when actually what we need to be trying to do is to customize and personalize if we're gonna have real relevance and impact. I think it's driven by a desire to compensate for poor managers." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "238.805", "endTime": "294.365", "body": "And so we put in place process and policy to try and protect the poor employees from these poor managers. I think a lot of it is trying to also protect the organization from the rogue employees, the tiny percentage of rogue employees who are going to behave badly. But so much of what we do in HR, our policies, rules and so on are determined by that lowest common denominator. And I also think that a lot of our processes in HR have been driven by a need to ensure compliance, to tick off that particular box rather than really thinking about how human beings lead sorry, how human beings learn, feel motivated, can perform better, can embrace change. Weirdly for a people function, we haven't deployed our superpower of knowing people very well." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "294.365", "endTime": "335.27002", "body": "What we've tended to do is to go for process rather than really designing around human beings. And we can talk about examples of each of those if you want to. I think in terms of the HR profession, every HR person I've met and I meet thousands every year works really hard, cares a huge amount. But I think we've also suffer from perhaps a a degree of lack of confidence, a sense of perhaps slight slightly victimized about, you know, why does nobody listen to me? And I think there's a, yeah, that kind of lack of confidence really undermines our ability to get stuff done." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "335.75", "endTime": "372.29", "body": "I think that's a giant issue as I like you, I I speak at a lot of conferences. I also for for SHRM, the the, you know, the predominantly now worldwide but predominantly US HR association. I'm state director elect and so I'm talking to HR leaders all the time and in my own business. And so and I I think that that idea that either HR has to be the police or they've gotta be that strictly transactional department. And neither of those are very strategic." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "372.29", "endTime": "372.77002", "body": "No." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "372.77002", "endTime": "388.105", "body": "And and you spend and we do as an organization respond to one bad actor employee by building up bulwarks around preventing this thing from ever happening again." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "388.105", "endTime": "408.885", "body": "Exactly. I was talking to a client the other day and they were saying that they had this great approach at work where you could bring your dog to work. And then one day, a dog came in with fleas and immediately, it's like, HR, we want a policy for dogs with fleas. And it just ripped the soul out of the whole approach. Nobody was gonna bring their dogs in after that." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "409.045", "endTime": "415.36502", "body": "And I think, you know, it's that classic thing of where we design around that lowest common denominator. It doesn't do us any favors." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "415.605", "endTime": "446.315", "body": "Right. So you're in The UK and and you mentioned compliance. I mean, we in The US complain quite a bit about, you know, the compliance burden from the federal government, from the state government and even in some jurisdictions, the local cities. But I think y'all, everything I've ever heard is that y'all make us look like amateurs when it comes to regulations in the employment and labor area. So, what does it look like there?" }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "446.315", "endTime": "452.94", "body": "How What does that burden look like on a business when it comes to regulation in The UK?" }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "453.02", "endTime": "475.585", "body": "So, I mean, we can perhaps talk about this as well, Mike. You know, just like you, we have a new administration in power, which is bringing around some interesting changes. You've moved to Republican. We've moved to, what we call labor here in the in The UK. And, of course, labor is the the so called kind of party of the employee rather than perhaps the bosses." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "476.09", "endTime": "478.16998", "body": "More like our traditional Democrat." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "478.25", "endTime": "479.44998", "body": "Exactly. So" }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "479.37", "endTime": "485.53", "body": "Although, I can tell you the Trump administration is really talking to labor and they're speaking the language of labor." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "485.93", "endTime": "500.20502", "body": "Exactly. Exactly. So lines are blurred now, aren't they? Mhmm. But certainly, the the labor government, when they came to power last summer, were talking about doing a huge amount around increasing the level of protection for employees." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "501.08502", "endTime": "553.075", "body": "And as with as ever with these kind of government policy driven approaches, they can be a little bit clumsy and they can miss the nuance and they can actually set back progress. So classic example would be probation. We were seeing real inroads into getting rid of that sword of Damocles hanging over employees, moving to a much more agile approach, you know, kind of the odd check-in, but making it much more around, you know, sort of dropping the probationary period. Well, the legislation that's likely to come in is going to make that impossible because of rights being extended so that you get basically rights from day one. So the need for organizations to have that rigorous probationary period is going to be intensified, which I think is a real shame." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "553.475", "endTime": "615.805", "body": "So I think here, we have not only the government legislation, but I think, you know, what what I see is certain industries really struggling under certain additional regulatory requirements, so financial services, education, health. A lot of HR people I meet in those sectors, they desperately want to be more progressive. They want to, for example, drop what we know doesn't actually work with the annual appraisals and ratings and guided distribution and all of that paraphernalia, which as we know doesn't drive performance or enhance motivation. They want to drop it but their sector regulator insists on it or at least insists on the evidence of a rating of some description. I think sometimes both at a government sectoral level, I think that can be quite prohibitive for some HR people who do want to be more progressive and more agile and more reflective of the world that we live in today." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "616.525", "endTime": "659.955", "body": "Well, and just the more layers of regulation you have, the more admin clerical comes with that, right? Yeah. So if an organization doesn't want to staff both a whole pool of people to do the paperwork and make sure the data's done whether it's, you know, actual physical paper or it's in the computer system someplace and another group to make employees feel as though they belong to the in the organization that the organization hears and cares about them and that they're, you know, that they they've got a future and they this is some place they want to work. Those are two very different roles. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "659.955", "endTime": "707.83", "body": "And organizations are going to default first to not getting in trouble with the government, right? Not opening them up themselves up for a lawsuit for failure to file the right documents or whatever. And so and we have that same issue in The US and so to a slightly lesser degree, think, but there's still mean, the the Trump administration, one of the first things the president did on his first day was get rid of our affirmative action requirements for federal contractors and everybody said it was the, you know, the sky is falling. But I've been in HR for thirty years and I've done affirmative action plans back twenty five plus years ago for a large employer And I can tell you, they didn't drive behavior. That was it was just a document you had to turn in." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "708.07", "endTime": "764.13", "body": "It didn't change how you recruited. It didn't really change how you incentivized, how you grew employees, the opportunities people had. And, you know, in the here in the, you know, twenty twenties, employers by and large aren't looking to actively discriminate against people. I mean, saying that they don't and not saying that they don't have biases they don't recognize or that their their systems don't operate as optimally for bringing the best talent in, but that all that paperwork that they were doing and all the money they were spending on software and consultants to get those things done probably wasn't achieving any of the end goals and it was a distraction for the organization. So, you know, that's kind of the ongoing balance, you know, how do we make, you know, definitely the government needs to make sure that people are paid fairly, that, you know, that a certain level of of benefit is there because otherwise that's gonna those benefits are gonna go off to the public to pay and those kinds of things." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "764.13", "endTime": "787.16", "body": "So there's a, you know, there's certainly balance but too often we set a government policy in place and we set corporate policies in place and they go on forever without being reexamined. And so, definitely in in organizations you see it, you know, this is how we've always done it. Or you see HR professionals. I talk to people at conferences and say, well, well, you can't do that. And I'm like, well, you can." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "787.16", "endTime": "803.785", "body": "There's nothing in the law that says you can't. Why can't you? And, oh, well, no place I've ever done every place I've ever done said you can't do that. And that's just something, you know, something they want to do that would be beneficial, but it's been handed from generation to generation and nobody stopped to say, why can't we do this?" }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "804.02496", "endTime": "827.40497", "body": "I think, I mean you raised the issue of diversity and inclusion and I think it's absolutely fascinating what's going on at the moment because you know, there's clearly all this outcry from the DEI community and one could regard some of the decisions from some of the corporate bosses as sort of opportunistic and cynical, you know, in terms of immediately rolling back on certain DEI commitments. But I agree" }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "827.40497", "endTime": "835.005", "body": "with opportunistic and cynical when they ran into them in 2020. Right? Yeah. Yeah. With no real intent to to make much change." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "835.005", "endTime": "835.165", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "835.165", "endTime": "852.995", "body": "Yeah. So, I mean, I but I I actually think this is a a really important opportunity for a reset around DEI because, like you, I feel that many of the approaches that we've taken have not worked. You know, unconscious bias training, billions spent on it and yet" }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "852.995", "endTime": "854.515", "body": "we know to support it. Right?" }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "854.515", "endTime": "902.63", "body": "Well, you know, I mean, I was reading, something from London School of Economics that was written in 2021, which talked about, you know, a long term research project, which had looked at the impact of unconscious bias training in certain organizations. And in almost every case, the stats had gone backwards because human nature if you say to a you say to a manager, it's not your fault. You know, it's an unconscious bias. And you don't follow it up with anything which challenges those biases in the moment where they're making those decisions using nudge techniques and so on, then nothing changes. Think it's whilst on the one hand, we can decry the actions of certain leaders, I do think we need to be honest and acknowledge as a profession that DEI has not delivered." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "903.19", "endTime": "918.625", "body": "And it's because I think we've made it in some ways very alienating for people. So ironic, isn't it? That we've actually made it very exclusive. We created our own language around it. We've made it compliance focused, which as we know doesn't change behavior either." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "918.625", "endTime": "949.295", "body": "We've had programs which look to fix the difference of, you know, sort of training people up to be as good as the people in power as opposed to really looking at what does it mean to be an inclusive workplace. I think there are some great examples of that changing, but there's also been a lot of the kind of, you know, we'll tackle it with mandatory training and process. And and we know that that doesn't change someone's beliefs, their their views, their attitudes, and their behavior. So we've got to get smarter about this stuff." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "950.14", "endTime": "976.715", "body": "Even before all of this exploded in 2020, Harvard Business Review had several studies that in authors who wrote about how this kind changing hearts and minds doesn't work. That it's gotta be systems in place to mitigate that bias and all of that. And so and I think it was 2021 or 2022, was invited to give a presentation, a DEI type presentation to a group. And I thought, okay. Well, let me sit down and do this." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "977.16", "endTime": "1007.68", "body": "And what I ended up doing was how to, you know, creating, you know, a presentation around how to mitigate bias in employment selection process. And that, you know, that's a business case. How do I get as wide a fully qualified applicant pool as I can? I mean, I want as many qualified applicants coming in the door. And then I want a process in place where my hiring managers biases, whether they recognize them or not, are really minimized." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1007.68", "endTime": "1064.0299", "body": "And so that we get really competent people and we're really evaluating how somebody is truly going to perform in the role that we need and how they're gonna operate in our environment and our culture because, you know, you know, going from a, you know, a very buttoned down, you know, black black shoe, white shirt environment to a really loosey goosey environment where you thrived in one, you may not thrive in the other. We gotta figure those things out for the sake of the candidate as much for as for us. But those figuring out all those, how do we really mitigate all of this stuff so that we get a fully qualified candidate on board as quickly as possible for the price that we're willing to pay for that role. That's what that's what diversity is, right? And then we gotta get them on on board and make sure that we treat their they're treated fairly, but that they feel like they belong and they're part of the organization." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1064.2699", "endTime": "1083.5651", "body": "Yeah. And so I I, you know, it's gonna be interesting. And the other problem you talked about the term diversity, what does it even mean? DEI doesn't means you ask eight practitioners and they're gonna give you eight different answers. I've had several as guests on this podcast trying to figure out what are they really talking about and some are just talking about the things I'm talking about." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1083.645", "endTime": "1107.725", "body": "Yeah. And that's not even, you know, those aren't the DEI programs that are illegal or that anybody's complaining about except that they have that labeled DEI. Yeah. But then when you start talking about quotas or quasi quotas or telling hiring managers you've got these expectations that they that their organization's gonna look like this, that violates in The US our our title seven Absolutely. You know." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1107.725", "endTime": "1132.115", "body": "And so you can't do that, but there were people out there out front because the popular zeitgeist was that's what you can that's what we should be doing. People were doing it. Yeah. And and so getting away from the term DEI, I think, a positive thing for the idea of having fairer workplaces. Whatever we call it, we just need to have those processes in place where we're we're really hiring competent and fair." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1132.115", "endTime": "1150.63", "body": "Yeah. Or we're using technology to kind of take the human being out of the equation altogether, know, using AI and the hiring or talent management processes. We're seeing that more and more, aren't we? And I think that's a real positive. Of course, there are potential issues with AI and ensuring that the bias isn't hardwired into it." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1150.63", "endTime": "1181.79", "body": "But equally, I think judicious use of that to ensure that you're not purely relying on on a line manager's judgment can be helpful. And definitely, we're seeing some good results there. And I really do like the the way in which certain companies I was looking at something at at Atlassian. And just by very simply changing the language. So instead of talking about diversity and inclusion, they just talked about, you know, how can we build better balanced teams?" }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1182.495", "endTime": "1208.1599", "body": "And, you know, it just stripped away this sense of this is an area that isn't for me or I don't wanna say the wrong thing. I might get it, you know, I might get into trouble if I get it wrong. And so I think just making the whole arena a much more welcoming place to have a conversation because that's what's gonna lead to change, isn't it? It's people having open and honest conversations without fear that they're gonna end up in some kind of tribunal." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1209.12", "endTime": "1239.6799", "body": "And let's take a quick break. Good morning HR is brought to you by Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. If you're an HRCI or Charm certified professional, this episode of good morning HR has been preapproved for one half hour of recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information, visit goodmorninghr.com and click on recert credits. Then select episode one ninety four and enter the keyword disruptive." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1239.84", "endTime": "1264.0599", "body": "That's d I s r u p t I v e. And if you're looking for even more recertification credit, check out the webinars page at imperativeinfo.com. And now back to my conversation with Lucy Adams. So we're two decades into the twenty first century. Business has changed so radically." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1264.14", "endTime": "1300.15", "body": "I started my consulting practice in '97, I started the background screening company in '99, and I think back to the way I did things and the kind of advice I even gave clients then, it's so different than it is, you know, here twenty six, twenty eight years later. HR though and how, not even just HR, the department, but how we manage people doesn't seem to have changed, hasn't kept And some of that again is, you know, the gig economy has become a thing but federal law here in The US hasn't caught up with that. Yeah. Fact, in some cases it's pushing against that." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1300.365", "endTime": "1300.845", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1300.845", "endTime": "1315.965", "body": "And some groups are opposed to that, even though that's, you know, there are individuals who want to engage in work contracts that way. What do you think the big shifts that organizations need to make to change their people leadership practices to catch up with the modern economy?" }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1316.6599", "endTime": "1351.6199", "body": "Yeah. I think you've highlighted one which I think is fascinating. I was reflecting on this the other day with my co founder about the side gig, which of course we saw proliferate during COVID, but has always been around. I mean, you know, when I started in HR, if you had an employee that had something on the side, it could be they worked for a charity or it could be that they were trying to set up their own business. It was seen that they had to ask permission and it was kind of seen as an indulgence or a lack of commitment to the main employer." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1352.0199", "endTime": "1397.765", "body": "Whereas, you know, of course, we know that actually if we're able to embrace this, and we see this with companies like HubSpot, Nestle, Warner Music, it's like embrace the side gig because actually it provides a fantastic outlet for developing your people without necessarily being able to provide that opportunities internally if you've got a flat structure, but they can be developing all sorts of skills. So we're seeing a kind of a real change in this recognition. So not just the the freelance or the gig economy, but this idea that actually people will have more than one. They'll, like, can have their main employer, but also have this side gig on the side. I think the whole hybrid piece has been absolutely fascinating." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1398.66", "endTime": "1434.37", "body": "Of course, we saw this complete embracing of hybrid because there was no alternative for many during the pandemic, but now we're seeing a rollback on that. I think it's a shame because you know, ultimately, the kind of going to work is largely an you know, a place of work is largely an industrial model. And I think it's gonna take a long time to really understand how to make it work. So again, I think HR, we kind of messed it up. We went with the two days out, three days in, which is such a kind of archaic way of approaching it." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1434.61", "endTime": "1501.1749", "body": "It's this kind of sense of, right, we'll just make it easier for managers so they don't have to have an adult conversation with a member of their team about what works for them. Not every employer, definitely, but certainly this kind of three days in the office, two days out is just really a kind of 1980s style approach to embracing something that could be amazing and could really significantly enhance not just the experience of people at work, but also the talent pool from which we can draw on. I think we're going to have to get smarter and and wise up to the fact that, you know, a multi generational workforce is not just kind of one or two generations, but but several generations, you know, so the kind of the the aging workforce. And I think we've really got our heads around that and what that actually looks like and truly embracing that. Obviously, digital, you know, I think that we've largely used digital within HR to automate transactional processes to speed up efficiency." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1501.175", "endTime": "1557.4548", "body": "But I think we're beginning to see now HR teams getting their heads around the fact that AI can be used to be much more creative rather than it just kind of automating and speeding things up. So I think we're gradually seeing changes but you're absolutely right. I think equally I still speak to so many HR people who are pretty much doing things the way they did in the nineteen nineties. And in part because I think a lot of the leaders that they're working with are still the same leaders from the nineteen nineties. So it will change but it's wonderful when you see HR teams who are out there leading the way, challenging things, doing things in very different ways, experimenting and piloting, and having the confidence to to really push back on these established norms and these established wisdom that we've lived with for for two, you know, twenty, thirty, forty, you know, years." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1558.095", "endTime": "1590.9299", "body": "And a couple times now, you've mentioned managers, and it is an HR drinking game here, a good morning HR drinking game because it comes up in almost every episode that our, you know, we have we have people who are very competent in a certain role. And so, let's take our most effective person in that role, take them out of that job and put them in a job that they're not prepared for, that we haven't trained them for and we're really not gonna invest a lot of time and money in training them for and make them and call them a manager." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1590.93", "endTime": "1591.25", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1591.25", "endTime": "1632.96", "body": "And and so and then we get upset when when they, you know, when the org the team doesn't perform as well or they, you know, they don't, you know, they don't manage the way that would be the best way to bring the best out in other people. But people don't inherently know how to do that and and that's another reason that HR, as you said earlier, has to be the the cop on the beat sometimes and and, you know, managers hate that. Nobody wants somebody looking over their shoulder. They would rather have the skills than be competent. Now, there are gonna be some managers and leaders who just think they have this unique insight into the human soul and you're never gonna talk them out of of of behaving the way they do." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1633.265", "endTime": "1672.4149", "body": "But most of them wanna be effective. Most of them want to learn and they they want the very best for their team and they wanna get the best out of their team. You know, need to spend a lot more time on management training, leadership training and even interpersonal stuff helping employees understand how to deal with each other, how to manage conflict inside of their own teams and things like that. And, you know, if we're ever gonna get to this this, you know, nirvana of, you know, self directed teams that we've been talking about for twenty years, teams have to be able to learn how to work together and whoever the nominal leader is, is gonna have to have the skills to incentivize that kind of behavior." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1672.94", "endTime": "1703.7699", "body": "You know, when I got my first group HR director role, I went and spoke to a load of very experienced HR directors, CPOs as they call them now. And I've forgotten all the great advice I was given, but there was one bit of advice that really stood out and still I kind of bear with me. He went, Lucy, you've really only got one job. Get good managers in and bad managers out. And I remember thinking at the time that's so simplistic and I'm sure it's much more complicated than that." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1703.7699", "endTime": "1766.0499", "body": "Of course it is, but there is something to that advice because I think if we spent as much time trying to make sure that the people we put into people leadership roles, not just that they had the attitudes and you know, the potential skills, but they want to actually lead people. You know, I've come across so many managers whether it be at the BBC who were as you say brilliant journalists or brilliant TV execs or brilliant technicians who wanted promotion, who wanted to progress, wanted more money, all completely valid ambitions but they didn't really want to manage other human beings. And if you haven't got that, at least that little kernel of desire, it's just an uphill battle. Some might get there but many of them don't. And so I think if we spent half as much time trying to focus on making sure that we by and large only put people into those people leadership roles who at least wanted to do it, then at least you're working with something." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1766.53", "endTime": "1783.95", "body": "And we've talked for years, haven't we, about alternative career paths. We still really haven't seen that. The ability to be a single contributor and progress in the organization to the highest levels, we still haven't really got our heads around that, at least not in most organizations, I don't think." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1784.59", "endTime": "1846.41", "body": "And you mentioned AI and as soon when ChatGPT and Claude.AI were the first two big ones that came out, I I jumped on them because I'm I'm, you know, I'm just curious and have sometimes too much free time and started telling people about what I was doing and quickly ended up doing several conference presentations around how HR could use AI and the things they have to think about and be cautious about. And at some of these conferences, I've had more senior HR leaders come up and say, what you're talking about is going to mean that I have a smaller HR team. And I'm like, very well it may. You may only need one HR rep to do the job of three. But if goal is to make the organization effective and to deliver service effectively and efficiently and still be a competitive organization in five years, you're going to have to adopt this." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1846.41", "endTime": "1891.155", "body": "That doesn't mean two people lose their jobs. That means that you free people up someplace else in the organization and I think an organization ought to bend over backwards to to keep every single employee who's productive, maybe not in the same role, but help them find a role in the organization, cross train them, do whatever you need to do to get them in there because they're already committed to the organization. When they see you do that, they're gonna be even more committed. But there are managers who still manage their value or, you know, measure their value according to how many people, how many seats do they have, how many people, you know, report to them. And I fear is gonna be the biggest challenge to really implementing AI in a lot of organizations." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1891.635", "endTime": "1930.59", "body": "I think you're right. And I think again, we have a role here not just within making sure that we embrace AI within our own teams, but helping managers and employees think through the consequences for them. Making it safe for them to play and experiment and try it out, making sure that the issues around ethics and transparency are addressed. As you say, encouraging, employees to recognize that it's probably not in the whole of their job that will disappear, but almost certainly a large part or a chunk of their job is gonna disappear. What does that mean where they need to be focusing on their skills?" }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1930.59", "endTime": "1963.23", "body": "We had this at the BBC where journalists It used to be that they would literally just go out and report the story and they would have a team of people around them. And they were usually guys, a sound guy, a cameraman guy. They would then take the tape back to the edit suite and give it to a professional editor. Know, these days they're self shooting and then they're going into a Starbucks. And so you're helping those journalists, these highly skilled people recognize that it wasn't enough just to be a skilled journalist." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1963.23", "endTime": "1977.605", "body": "They also needed to be comfortable with social media and digital and editing packages. And some of them made it and some of them didn't. Know? The dinosaurs were was but there's there's there's always been those, hasn't they? And there's only so much we can do." }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "1977.605", "endTime": "1986.86", "body": "In the end, they're grown ups and it and it's their career. But I do think we're, you know, being really clear and engaging and involving people as much as possible, I think is a key role for us." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "1987.34", "endTime": "2003.835", "body": "Yeah. I mean, we don't we can't as a society, we can't afford to have a generation of workers age out early because they can't keep up. But at the same time, the organizations need efficient people who can use the latest tools because we've got to compete and" }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "2004.075", "endTime": "2004.635", "body": "Exactly." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "2004.635", "endTime": "2026.17", "body": "I mean, that's what we're, you know, we're seeing in The US. We're competing globally against other companies, countries who who quite honestly don't have the labor laws we have and the restrictions we have. And so we've got to compete within our guidelines and still be competitive. That means we've got to be able to leverage technology. We've to lever best practices about how we bring our people in, how we encourage them and incentivize them." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "2026.565", "endTime": "2032.485", "body": "But hey, that's, this went, this flew by, Lucy. I just love talking to you. That's all the time we have. Thank you for" }, { "speaker": "Lucy Adams", "startTime": "2032.485", "endTime": "2036.725", "body": "joining Oh, it's a shame. It's been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "2036.725", "endTime": "2067.165", "body": "And we will again have links to both of Lucy's books in the show notes and you'll find all her contact information there as well. And thank you for listening. As we close, I wanna give a special shout out to Lindsay Pascal. She's rocking the people advisory at over at And if you enjoyed this episode, please write us a review on Apple Podcast, YouTube, or wherever you're listening. Also, find us on your favorite social media platform and share this episode." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "2067.405", "endTime": "2089.795", "body": "It helps us reach more listeners. And you can find all our links and all our past episodes at goodmorninghr.com. Special thanks to Rob Upchurch, our technical producer, and to Imperative's marketing coordinator Mary Anne Hernandez who keeps the trains running on time. And I'm Mike Coffey as always. Don't hesitate to reach out if I can be of service to you personally or professionally." }, { "speaker": "Mike Coffey", "startTime": "2090.195", "endTime": "2096.035", "body": "I'll see you next week, and until then, be well, do good, and keep your chin up." } ] }