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Welcome to another edition of the Always Be Testing podcast with your 

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host, Ty DeGrange. Get a guided tour of the world of growth, performance 

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marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing. 

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We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth, 

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marketing, and life. Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, 

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and have some fun talking about data driven growth and lessons learned. 

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Hello. Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing podcast. I'm 

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your host, Ty DeGrange. And today, we got Bobby Callahan. Hi, Bobby. Hey. 

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How's it going? Thanks for having me. Thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. 

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Had some really good conversations and, excited to dive into the world of email 

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marketing and SMS, man. Hell, yeah. Everyone's favorite topic. 

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Exactly. I I don't think enough people I think people have started to 

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talk more about it and share more, and and I think I think you are smart to 

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to tackle that space. I'm excited to dive in with you. Hell, yeah. 

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Absolutely. How's how's your week going? It's going well, man. Q one's an exciting time. A 

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lot of conversations happening. And, coming out of q four, we crush it for our clients. And 

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then coming into q one, we can kinda build the agency more. And there's a lot of turbulence, a lot of 

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people talking about different things, and so it's a lot of fun to build in q one. And and so this week has 

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been full of q one type things. How about you? Yeah. Similarly, I I definitely 

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feel you. It's I think people are got their their stuff together. There are 

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still folks figuring out budgets and plans and strategy, but it's fast and furious 

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in a good way, all the ways that we want it to be right now. So I couldn't agree 

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more. Maybe tell the audience a little bit. So what is it you do and maybe 

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explain, like, very simply, what how would you break down what you do? Yeah. So my name is 

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Bobby, and I run an agency called Retentio. So that's the word retention without the 

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n. And so we do retention marketing. Email and SMS is, like, our our main 

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lever that we pull, but we work with subscription brands. We do direct mail. We do a bunch of other stuff, 

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loyalty, etcetera. That kinda falls under that retention ecosystem. But our 

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main kinda tools are email and SMS. That's awesome. And 

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when you look at email and SMS, what are some of the things that just 

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kinda breaking down super simple and high level. Like, what is it you're 

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you're really focused on? What do clients task you with doing with an email and 

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an SMS? Yeah. So high level, you know, we send campaigns. 

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We set up automations. Our whole job is to make sure that we're collecting emails. 

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People spend a lot of money on traffic, and so we wanna make sure those leads are collected at some 

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rate. And then we do our our best to nurture an audience. We're not about 

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just selling all the time. We try and nurture people through content and really build the funnel up. 

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And then when there's a big moment, whether that's black black Friday, Cyber Monday, or Father's Day, or anything 

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like that, we look for opportunities to clear that funnel out. And so we build the funnel up by nurturing these 

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leads. And then when we can, we clear it up. And so kinda rinse and repeat, do that, set 

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up automations. And at the end of the day, just try to send the right message to the right person at the 

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right time. That's awesome. So nothing really acquisition focused, all 

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centered around the retention ecosystem and kind of keeping customers. Is that 

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accurate? I would say that's kind of our main positioning, but a lot of email 

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is is the pop up collecting enough emails. How's the welcome flow doing? And so 

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although the name of my agency is Retentio, retention starts at acquisition. That 

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is, like, step one of retention. And so we do need to acquire people properly so that we can get them 

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to stick around. And so although retention focus, Retentio branded, acquisition is 

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a big part of this that we take on as well. Awesome. Very cool. And how 

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did you get into it? How did this all come about? So my big thing is whenever 

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I have to make a decision, I usually try to figure out what is my weakness, and I 

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try to make that into my strength. And so going into COVID, I owned my own small 

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brand. It was in home fitness, and so it really grew. All the gyms were 

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closed, and I was just acquiring customers as quickly as I could. And when the 

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post COVID hangover happened and I didn't focus on retention or email 

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or these things, that brand, unfortunately, passed away. It did not make the cut. 

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And so looking at that, I really was like, why did this happen? What could I have done 

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better? Like, what was my blind spot and weakness? Email, SMS, retention, all those sorts of 

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things, that was the answer. And so I said, you know what? I'm gonna now try and turn that into my biggest 

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strength. And so I started started just learning as much as I could, started working with brands. 

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Couple years later, here I am, and, I think I did that. That's awesome, man. 

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I I love the idea of taking a a weakness or a or what may 

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may, you know, be deemed a failure into more of a learning, and that's just you know, it's 

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central to what I think many of us as marketers and business people have experienced 

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in life and in business, and you you kinda turn those, you know, those challenges or 

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those learnings into new opportunities and some of your bigger biggest ones. And so 

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congratulations for viewing things that way, and it's commendable. Not everybody does that. 

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So that's really cool. Yeah. It sucks in the moment for sure. But then with enough, like, 

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compounding, when you start to feel like, oh, now this is no longer a weakness, it's a pretty good 

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feeling. So I try to do that as much as I can. Yeah. I think it kinda sharpens 

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the the edge and and your see, you have less blind spots 

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after you go through some of those challenging times. They they make you stronger and smarter 

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and a better better operator in a lot of ways, so commendable. What 

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about in terms of looking at talent? You know, you're building out a team. You're you're 

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courting really interesting, exciting customers. Like, what do you look for with 

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with email marketers? What do you what are some of the things maybe you train for 

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or optimize for, interview for when you're bringing together, you know, teams and 

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talent and systems for clients? There's a lot of things for sure. Email marketing specifically, 

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I would say, you're kinda combining art and science. In a lot of marketing, that's what you're 

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doing. And so there's, like, the design eye, the creative eye, the creative mind, but then there's 

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also, like, the analytical opportunity to, like, review what you're 

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doing, hypothesize how things could be better. The name of this podcast, always be testing, like, 

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that's very important to me. And so being able to kinda switch from a creative 

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to an analytic, we we have a small team, so people wear multiple hats sometimes. And 

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so kinda just being able to switch between the two and kinda hang in both of those conversations is 

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something that I look for. Because sometimes when a creative talks to a more technically minded 

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person or analytical person, it's, like, not apples and oranges, and they kinda 

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don't see each other eye to eye. And so I really look for people that can kinda see both sides of the coin, 

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and I think that makes for a lot more synergy and and better execution, when we try to communicate 

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things through email. That's awesome. And and do you think, like, in your stage right now, 

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you're able to kind of find folks that are able to be pretty good at both the analytical and 

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the creative, or are you finding you have to kind of be more focused at this 

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stage? So we're just onboarding like a creative person. I would say we're starting 

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to segment a little bit more. I think at the beginning, it was definitely wearing both hats. 

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Mhmm. But as we grow a little bit more, it's like, yeah. We have a creative person. We have a 

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strategist person. And really segmenting those things out so that they can stay in their lane and 

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really work deeply there. But that being said, it's still very important to me that a 

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strategist and a creative and whoever else can have organic conversations together and see 

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each other's perspective as much as possible. So trying to foster that even though they work in 

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totally different ends of the spectrum. I like where your head's at with that. I feel like it makes sense to 

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have more generalists early on. As you grow, you're kind of getting more 

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specific, very laser focused individuals over time to 

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enable that scale. But still, there's a kind of a benefit 

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to an analytical person really understanding elements of the creative side, 

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understanding what levers that you can pull as an email marketer and as a 

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retention expert and conversely on the other side. So I really like 

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I really like that framework that you're coming up with. Yeah. Totally. I, personally, I really 

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enjoy ecommerce. So ecommerce is a generalist game. So I do my best to be a good 

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generalist, which allows me to kinda get someone who's a creative and get someone who's a 

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strategist and sit them down and be like, hey. This is how you see things. This is how you see things. 

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I might not be the best at either one of them as a generalist, but, it's being able to speak the language of both 

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is is something that I think ecommerce operators should be able to do. Yeah. We 

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we've talked about that concept of, like, generalist versus specialist a lot on our team. And 

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one teammate, and I talk a lot about there's a book called Range. I don't know if you've you've read that 

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one. Pretty good. Check it out. Yeah. Definitely talks a lot about, like, the value of 

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being a generalist, and there's definitely, hot takes and strong opinions on 

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that one if you talk to people in the, d to c ecom 

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marketing world, but it's a worthy one regardless of where you stand on the topic. 

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Cool. Cool, man. Love it. What what kind of client are you finding 

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kinda, you know, nails it for what you're doing for them or on in the world of retention and 

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email and SMS marketing? What kind of challenges are they facing? What kind of stage are they 

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in? We take brands that are doing about a hundred twenty k a month to three hundred k a month, 

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and we look to to grow them. So we take smaller brands. What's naturally happened for 

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us is we're seeing that there really is, like, a business model channel fit. 

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And what I mean by that is a a lot of the clients that we crush for the most are subscription. They 

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have a subscription d to c product. And in retention, it's, like, it's easier to get someone 

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to not unsubscribe than it is to get them to make another purchase. And 

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so we deal a lot with churn, and we deal a lot with, keeping people rather than 

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winning people back with those kind of customers. And I think that direct to consumer subscription, 

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there's just a synergy there. And, like, they have healthy repeat order rates, healthy 

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margins. They're able to really grow, and it's just yeah. We've 

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just seen that naturally, that's kinda where we've niched into. Like, not really on purpose. We just 

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kinda crushed it for a subscription brand, took on another took on another, and now over seventy percent 

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of our clients are subscription. Love that. Not to say we don't work with anybody in 

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direct to consumer, but just naturally, subscription seems to be a really good business model for the channel. 

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Absolutely. There's so many benefits to it. The LTV, the the value gives, the 

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opportunity to kinda play with a little bit more, and, it it's hard when you're 

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when you're chasing that next one off one off purchase. It can be a little bit more difficult. 

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That's awesome. With your evolution in your career, you know, you we talked about 

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this a little bit. Was there kind of, like, a sliding door moment? I think I think I might know what you're gonna 

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share, but can you share a little bit about, like, those intersections in your career where you could have gone 

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one direction and you kind of ended up going to another and kind of how those what 

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learnings kinda came out of it? My end goal is to start a 

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brand, portfolio brands, similar to, like, Homestead, Zach Stuck. I really admire what 

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he's doing. I started off, like, starting brands and doing that and really running, 

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like, small business type brands. And, yeah, when after the COVID hangover, 

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and it was like, do I start another brand, or do I go agency? That was a big moment for 

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me because I had to take a different route to get to where still where I wanna get to. I still wanna get to the 

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same place, but building the agency and starting to build the team and learning all these things. And now 

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I'm in a way better position to start a brand now if I wanted to versus if I just keep trying 

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to start brands over and over again. And so that moment of just moving from 

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brand to agency, knowing that eventually I wanna go back to brand, that was a huge 

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moment for me. And, It's awesome. Honestly, very happy I did that. Yeah. I think one thing 

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that's awesome, feel like with agency, if you're really in the, you know, 

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higher percentile of performance, if you're being, you know, candid and 

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and solving real problems and going after the right customer, you know, 

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cohorts. Like, it can be a business that does quite well and is very 

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stable even through challenging times. I I was talking to folks recently about I feel like 

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the winners are emerging in on the, you know, brand side and winners are emerging 

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on the agency side. And we're getting in a very stringent financial environment where people 

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are very, you know, careful about every dime they spend, which is how it should be 

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and much more stringent than the zero interest rate rental fantasy land 

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world we were living in a few years ago, and I feel like it's not a bad thing. It kinda shakes out 

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folks. And, if you can be in that winning category, I think it present a lot of opportunity. And I I 

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just love how many learnings there are to be had on the agency side. You could then take those learnings 

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back to the brand side down the road if you want to. Yeah. Like, fair 

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enough. I would start a subscription brand if I was to start one, and I wouldn't have known to do that if I didn't 

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naturally fall into that niche based off what I'm doing. And there's just so many things that 

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I'm seeing on the agency. So I feel like I'm cheat like, it's a cheat code. Like, I just get to see all 

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these things, and I'm like, okay. This is good. This is bad. I can kinda create, like, a 

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mental checklist of if I didn't wanna pursue a brand opportunity, what would that look 

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like? Yeah. So, yeah, that eight the agency experience is honestly priceless. 

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Yeah. I love that. The volume of stuff we've learned in the last ten years is is insane, 

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and it's been fun to kind of have that, you know, combination of in house and and agency 

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experience. Switching gears a little, thinking about, like, you know, the learnings aspect of the 

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pod, like, you're running experiments all day long in email. You're doing AB tests. You're 

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doing testing with SMS and other, you know, retention levers. 

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I'd love to hear can you share some of the some of those moments or maybe some 

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surprising tests or maybe experiments that you are really were were impressed 

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by the performance of, like, trying to give the audience some things that have really worked well 

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and some tactics and strategies that really were were surprisingly good for you? 

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Totally. So the first one that comes to mind is there's the question of 

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one call to action versus multiple call to actions. And so when you make an email, should it be 

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focused on one core thing, or should you focus on a couple of things because you don't know what the person is gonna click 

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on? It may you could argue it both ways. If anything, I feel, like, blindfolded, I could 

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argue that more CTAs might be a better thing. But through testing, like, what we've seen is 

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sometimes when you just focus on one call to action, one message, one offer, one 

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anything. It can be a lot more powerful and directed than if you give someone, like, three different 

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blocks of content or offers to choose from. It's not always the case, but it's just an interesting test 

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to run is, should I be laser focused on this is the piece of content or offer I wanna push 

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and make sure people are singularly focused going down that path? Or do I give them all these 

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options to click from, which sometimes can cause a little bit of paralysis by analysis? Yep. 

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This isn't always the case. Like, there are brands that if you show, like, a lot of different things, like, it's it's awesome. 

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They have a great catalog, etcetera. But it's a very interesting test to run because it kinda 

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varies brand to brand, and I'm starting to lean towards team one CTA over 

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multiple. Got it. So you actually seen that some cases, multiple 

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CTAs cannot perform one CTA for some brands even though that's counterintuitive. 

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Is that right? Yeah. I've seen it both ways. So sometimes if you offer a lot of different 

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options, different products, etcetera, like, that's the best way to move. Or there's other 

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cases where if you only offer one call to action, just make the, email very 

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simple with one product, one offer, one whatever, that can now perform as well. So I kinda would 

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urge people to think about that for their brand and kinda run that test and see, should I 

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be overwhelming people with all these buttons to click, or do I just stay laser focused on one 

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message per email or piece of content? Yeah. And talk a little bit about subject 

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lines and kind of, like, you know, I think that's hotly debated. You you see all kinds of weird 

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stuff now in subject lines, like forwarding and exclamations and Yeah. 

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There's the Obama marketing campaign, like, legendary stuff they talked about. 

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Yeah. It was seems like ancient history now. What has worked well in subject lines, 

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and what are some of the learnings that you've had there? I can kinda spitball them. So one 

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that is very fifty fifty is emojis. We've done a lot of emoji testing, and it 

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really just lands fifty fifty. Like, if you remove it, it didn't really make a difference. If you add it, it didn't really make a difference. 

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I think that's a fun one to point out. Being very direct, I think, is important. Making sure 

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people click on something, and then what they're about to click into is congruence with that. There's a little bit of 

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dissonance when you kind of are very click baity, and then, like, the content of the email 

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is not aligned with that. And so a lot of the time, like, we have a hero headline, a lot 

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of that DNA is baked into the subject line. Like, we wanna make sure there's a lot of congruency because the reason they're 

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clicking it is to get what they think they're clicking into for the subject of the email. So 

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being direct, make sure you let people know if there's an offer inside. You can get 

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cute with it, but sometimes we get too cute. That's where that dissonance happens where it's like 

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Mhmm. You clicked on it, and then, like, it wasn't really what you expected. And so, yes, you got the 

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click or you got the open, but, that's where it'll stop. And so I think there's a 

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lot to be said about the congruency between the subject line and the actual content 

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itself, and that will yield better results because people are literally micro, 

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yes, clicking into that piece of content. If they are then served that piece of content, it's gonna perform better. And 

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so you gotta be careful not to get too cute would be my big learning. 

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Yeah. I think that's a good, good piece of advice on a number of things. 

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What are some of the things that you think a lot of, you know, brands get wrong 

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in email and SMS marketing, and you have to kind of 

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educate, test, advise? Like, what are some of the biggest pitfalls that you see? Maybe a 

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hot take or or people might disagree, but I really don't want my brands to become discount brands. 

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That could be a slippery slope. And so there are times where people get themselves in a 

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situation where their audience has offer fatigue. Like, they just have been 

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shown offers all the time. And if you really wanna give them a purchase, you have to, like, one up yourself again with 

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an offer. And so being very intentional about when you discount, 

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how you discount, how often you discount, You don't wanna get yourself in a situation where you 

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have offer fatigue and you have to, like, fight your way out of that because it's just really 

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hard. And so I would say, be intentional about that. Build the funnel and then 

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clear the funnel. You're not always trying to clear the funnel and offer offer offer offer. Like, your 

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automations and your flows are built to kinda convert people naturally. 

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And so on the campaign side, like, that's where you have an opportunity to 

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nurture and do cool things. If you're trying to compensate on the campaign side, 

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that can hurt you sometimes. And so the biggest pitfall that I see is brands 

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accidentally become discount brands, and then they'll have a softer Black Friday, Cyber Monday. They'll 

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have a you know? So do your best to build the funnel and then clear it 

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versus always just hammering an audience with offers. Yeah. Interesting. So you're saying 

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clear it more sustainably rather than forcing a clearing or forcing a purchase. 

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You're you're trying to do things to build up the funnel and then 

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clear them out when it makes sense rather than forcing it upon them. Totally. 

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Absolutely. And it's just a little more organic. You'll have bigger days, and 

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people will just respond better because they're like, I haven't seen an offer in a minute. Mhmm. And 

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I've been seeing all this cool stuff about this brand. Now is my time to jump in. Versus 

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if they're always getting an offer, there's not like that now is this time to jump in. And so, 

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like, you can't as intentionally clear the funnel on a certain day. Yeah. No. 

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That's really cool. When you ingest, you know, phone numbers and, you 

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know, emails in your system and you talk about this funnel that you're monitoring, 

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Are there things that you do to validate those numbers, not 

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just technically, like, that they function, but, like, how was this customer acquired? 

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Why did they come into the ecosystem to make your funnel more quality? 

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Or is it kinda like, let's kinda see how they behave downstream based on what we're doing 

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with our marketing and messaging and and time and timing of those messages? Like, 

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can you share a bit more about how you think about kind of, like, the acquisition when it comes 

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into your ecosystem? So the main way we collect is through pop ups. 

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Shout out to AMT and Matt. Great pop up software. It has changed a lot 

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of my clients' email SMS programs. But pretty much, you know, 

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we don't we're we don't really look at it by source. So we're not like this phone number came from TikTok. This 

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one came from Facebook, etcetera. It's more so when a number comes in or a 

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email comes in, they're gonna go through, like, a welcome flow. They're gonna go through these automations, and then they're 

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gonna self bucket based off their behaviors. So if they're highly engaged, if 

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they're not engaged with the that initial automation, then they're gonna be put 

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in the corresponding bucket. If they made a purchase through the welcome flow, they're gonna go into a 

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different segment. And so things are dynamically set up that once people come in regardless of, 

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like, where they came from, they go through this automation. Their behavior is 

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then shown through the automation, and then they're gonna dynamically be put in a segment. And then those 

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segments are what we'll, like, look at. And so people are always moving from segment to set 

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segment dynamically. And I never know, like, did they come from TikTok? Did they come from this or 

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that? Sometimes Yeah. If we wanna run a test, maybe we'll do that, but, traditionally, not as 

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much. Got it. That's super interesting. When you are doing segmentation, 

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what what are some of maybe the learnings that you you and your team have learned from that 

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process, and what does that segmentation kinda look like? Segmentation is 

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slippery slope. It's good to start out simple. So prospect, 

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customer, VIP Mhmm. Engaged. Just stay simple. And then there's 

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opportunities for you to, like, overcomplicate segments and, again, get cute. 

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That's kind of something I say a lot is when you get cute with something. And so with segments, you can I can make up 

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an infinite amount of segments? I can think of all these different reasons why I can think of this, 

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of this kind of behavior, this kind of behavior, this kind of person, this kind of person, and I can 

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accidentally create way too many segments and get yourself in a situation where you're trying 

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to make tailored content for all these different segments, and it's not producing any sort of lift. And so you have 

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to be careful not to overcomplicate segments, but there is some cool learnings you can 

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get. An example is, let's say there's a subscription box and there's different tiers, 

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bronze, silver, gold. Mhmm. Sometimes it's good to segment those out and see how 

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they respond differently to different things just to get learnings out of it. But if, you know, over time, what 

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you'll see is you end up rolling them back up into simple segments. And so, I guess, 

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just to say that a little simpler is starting out segmentation very simply, 

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trying to overcomplicate it to find learnings, but then what always ends up happening is you end up 

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rolling back into the simpler segments. And so prospect, 

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customer, VIP, just engaged in general Yeah. Usually, 

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that that's enough. And if you wanna do more than that, you you gotta be careful not to go, slip 

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down that rabbit hole. Yeah. No. That's awesome. And appreciate you diving in on some of these 

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things. It's super interesting and definitely the spirit of the pod. In terms of other 

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learnings, like, when when people you know, I've been on internal teams where they're assigning, like, a revenue 

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number through some of their email efforts. Like, how do you think about that email 

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attribution to the retention process? There's definitely I mean, you can imagine it's 

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it could be massive if you buy a one off thing and then these emails are kind of, like, nudging 

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you down the path of, like, adding the whole suite of products. But how do you think about 

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revenue attribution and and kinda stating it in an accurate way? 

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Yeah. Attribution is very tough in today's day and age in ecommerce, in my opinion. 

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There's a few ways. Actually, there's two. So new customer revenue versus 

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returning customer revenue, understanding that as, like, a number and a percentage, what 

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percentage of people that ordered this month are returning versus versus new? 

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And then just overall attribution to email SMS. We see that, like, thirty percent 

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is, like, a pretty healthy place, goal to get to. So if you can get your email 

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attribution to about thirty percent of your revenue, that's great. You can get towards fifty. That's awesome. But 

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sometimes you can have too much email attributed revenue, or you could have too much returning customer 

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revenue. You always need to be acquiring customers at a certain rate because if you're not and 

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you're only relying on email or returning customer revenue or whatever the case may 

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be, to me, it's actually the sign of, like, a dying business. We've had clients that, we we had 

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seventy percent attributed revenue to email, and that was, like, a bad 

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situation to be in. Although we were doing a great job, they weren't acquiring customers. They weren't 

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doing things through other channels. They didn't have meta running. There there was things that, like so 

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it's interesting. You wanna have a healthy balance of new customers and returning 

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customers, and you also wanna have a healthy balance of channels. So top of 

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funnel, email, like, all these different channels. There's kinda like a natural 

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healthy position to be in for all these kind of metrics. And so we try to aim 

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for healthy returning customers so that we feel there is enough new customers coming 

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into the system and healthy email attribution. So we feel like the other channels are still 

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kinda carrying their weight, which is very important. That's great. Are you 

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do you feel like you're able to help kind of when people 

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look at retention, obviously, there's there's brands that have all ranges of retention, some very good, 

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some not so good. How much do you feel like your efforts can kind 

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of move that band and move the needle in an area that is obviously dependent on 

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a lot of things that are not necessarily in your control? I guess the answer is 

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I wish I had more control, but the truth is that a great product, 

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just a great product in general, is gonna carry most of the retention. Even good shipping, 

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like, so if someone got something in two days versus ten days, like, good product experience, 

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good product in general. These things are most over attention. My job is just 

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to remind people, hey. Let's say it's a beverage company, and the 

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average consumption cycle is thirty five days. So they get a case of beverages, and it takes them on 

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average about thirty five days to consume them. On day thirty six, I'm just that gentle reminder that's like, 

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hey. Did you run out? Like, time to restock. Here are other flavors. So, you know, 

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if they didn't have a good time with that initial twelve pack of beverages, on day thirty six when 

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I remind them, it's not gonna do much. And so I'm just that extra 

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twenty percent of polish just to really send the right message to the right person at 

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the right time and make sure they're being introduced to new products and etcetera, etcetera. But at 

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the end of the day, the product and the product experience, that is most of the retention. I'm 

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just here to kinda fill in the gaps. When you think about levers you have control of, you got 

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subject line, you got image, you got copy, You got when it's sent. You got the 

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segmentation. There's other factors too. You got images, buttons. How much 

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does copy play into that? I would say it depends on the audience. 

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Maybe if it's a female audience, like, you can maybe be more, again, cute with 

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it. You can be more designed. You can be more aesthetic. You can be more, etcetera. And so you 

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kinda just have to understand the audience. Like, does this audience operate and the problem that you're solving and, like, the 

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category that you're in? Is this something where, like, brand and design and aesthetic can 

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really push the needle to acquire a customer, or do I need to figure out a 

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pain point, agitate it, and then solve it? And so it totally 

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depends as much as that sucks to say in marketing. But if you can identify who your audience 

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is and what you're trying to sell and whether you're solving a problem or you're selling something that's more luxury, 

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you can kinda then use copy and design more so as a tool rather than one or the 

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other. There's plain text emails that rip, and there's design emails that 

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rip, and it's more so understanding when to use them. Mhmm. And so, yeah, if there's 

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a if there's a problem that you're solving specifically, like, PAS is like a 

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framework, pain, agitate, solve, it does very, very well. But if you're not solving a product as 

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much, then it's more so more so about maybe the aesthetic or the brand or the whatever that case may 

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be. And so I guess my answer more so is understand what you're trying to 

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do and accomplish, and then use copy and design accordingly. There's gonna be brands where 

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we're very heavy on design, and then there's gonna be brands where we're very heavy on copy. And so 

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kinda not a one size fits all situation. Awesome. That's super interesting. Yeah. I think 

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what are some of the the copied angles or or directions that you guys do 

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take or kind of have internally, or do you rely on I'm guess I'm kinda 

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curious to know, like, what do you try to do internally versus maybe rely on other other 

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areas outside of your control when it comes to copy? Marketing angles is definitely, like, the 

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word. We're trying to think of the different types of problems that 

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this solves and the different kind of relatable situations in which this product can exist, and 

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we're trying to spin it up in a way that resonates with people. 

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And so angling and marketing angles in general, very important. And so 

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something we're starting to offer is just image ads in general because we're starting to get good at, hey. Like, there's this 

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product. Here's all these marketing angles. From those marketing angles, we can create all these 

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headlines. From those headlines, we can create all those body paragraphs. And so 

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getting really good at, like, angling a product, like, marketing angles, and then turning those 

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into headlines has allowed us to, one, get better at email because we can spin 

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things up in unique ways. And then two, it's actually helping us with image ads because at the end of the day, once 

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we have a good marketing angle and headline, to get to a good image ad is is easier 

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because that's a big strength of image ads is you're really focusing on, like, the headline. And 

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so, yeah, we're just trying to ID it as much as possible, look at as many marketing angles as possible, and 

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kinda go from there. That's awesome. Do you how much different do you obviously, 

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text and SMS and and email are very different. How do you kinda get those working well 

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together? Do you view them as completely separate things, or is there some kind of connection between 

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them? Yeah. No. We wanna connect them for sure. Sometimes when we go into a brand, 

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like, we fix email and then fix SMS and then connect them, but 

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end game, we really wanna connect the two. They're very different. Right? Like, 

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with SMS, you really need to have something worth saying to actually, you know, send 

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it. Yeah. I don't wanna be sending crappy SMSs that have no relevance. Like, it's either my 

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best offer or it's something really worth texting about. And then on email, you can 

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kinda send more fluff or content or just, like, nice to have stuff to be sent 

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out the door. And so that's kinda how I think about it is when do we have something that's amazing 

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to say? Let's support with an SMS. And then the base of the funnel is more like email 

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built. And then we kinda plug in SMS when it's like, okay. This is important. Let's send it 

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out. But we're very sparing with the SMS. Yeah. That's an even more extreme example 

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of clearing the funnel. Like, if you and that's a place where you can get offer fatigue very easily. It's just blasting 

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SMSes. Like, I can't name a more annoying thing than getting blasted SMSes. Yeah. 

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And so we're very intentional about we are clearing the funnel, or this is 

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just something that's worth saying, or this is a moment that we really need to dig deep, with the 

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offer. So that's how we think about SMS, and then we just, yeah, we use that to support email. And so 

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it's they work together, hopefully. That's awesome. Very cool. And, just 

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switching gears a little bit. Fun fun question. What what's a product you bought a hundred bucks or less 

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that you just love right now and you're stoked about? Hundred bucks or less. Oh, I 

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have it right here. It's the Shopify counter. Have you seen this? 

407
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Amazing. I have, but I I I don't think quite in this context. We're doing 

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a a brand launch with a client right now, and we launched yesterday. And so I have this counter next 

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to me, and it's, it's in real time. And so I've I'm keeping tabs on it even if during 

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this podcast. Oh my god. Cool. Great addition to the to the office. 

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Definitely get one. I think we're gonna need to talk about that. I think we need one for for everybody, 

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for all of our clients. I love that. It'd be a great gift to give a client. Brilliant. 

413
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Good call. What, what books have inspired you lately? Anything on 

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human behavior. I have this book, priceless, William 

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Poundstone. It talks about, like, the myth of fair value and how price isn't a real thing and 

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everything is relative, and it it just talks about human behavior in general. And 

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those are the kind of books I like to consume. I think it kinda shows me that I am interested in brand building 

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because I am interested in human behavior and consumer behavior. And so, yeah, anything in that 

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realm, I I like to consume. It's very interesting to me. I love it. This has 

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been really interesting and fun and lots of learnings that you've shared. Bobby, 

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it's really, really appreciated. Excited to see, all the success of your 

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agency, now and in the future, and we'll probably see you, touting 

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some really cool brands down the line as well. Hell, yeah. Thank you so much. This has been a 

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pleasure. Heck, yeah. For folks in the audience that wanna connect with you and, 

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and follow you, where would they where would be best to find you? Probably Twitter. So Bobby 

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Callahan underscore. I I like to tweet. Not much of a presence on LinkedIn 

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yet. So maybe one day you can find me there, but for now, just Twitter. Rock on, man. It's been a 

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pleasure. I really appreciate the time, and, have a great day. You too. Thank you so much. 

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Thanks, Bobby. Bye.