1 00:00:01,579 --> 00:00:02,110 Excellent. 2 00:00:02,110 --> 00:00:05,764 So welcome both of you to the podcast. 3 00:00:05,764 --> 00:00:12,491 It would be great if you could start by just introducing yourselves and telling me 4 00:00:12,491 --> 00:00:16,715 little bit about Tulips and the history of the company. 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:19,880 Well, hello. 6 00:00:20,540 --> 00:00:22,860 I'm Laure Cousin. 7 00:00:23,340 --> 00:00:36,760 I live in Paris and I've launched Tulip & Company with Charles in 2002 and it's 8 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:41,380 corporate film agency. 9 00:00:42,903 --> 00:00:43,474 Right. 10 00:00:43,474 --> 00:00:49,534 And Charles, did you join from the beginning or when did you come on board? 11 00:00:49,534 --> 00:00:50,514 exactly. 12 00:00:50,514 --> 00:00:56,374 So we've launched our creative agency, Toulipes and Company, in 2002. 13 00:00:56,674 --> 00:01:01,794 And at the beginning, we were three shareholders. 14 00:01:03,274 --> 00:01:14,334 Laurent, Laure's husband, who never worked within Toulipes on a daily basis, but who 15 00:01:14,334 --> 00:01:19,114 plays the role of business coach for us. 16 00:01:20,447 --> 00:01:26,279 Not each month, but I think every two months or something like that. 17 00:01:26,279 --> 00:01:34,402 It depends on issues for Trulis, but we can ask for him on different issues and 18 00:01:34,402 --> 00:01:36,293 then talk with him. 19 00:01:36,293 --> 00:01:39,494 It's very helpful for us. 20 00:01:39,539 --> 00:01:41,364 And what were you both doing? 21 00:01:41,364 --> 00:01:45,675 just before you set it up, what were you working as and what gave you the idea to 22 00:01:45,675 --> 00:01:46,977 start the company? 23 00:01:47,584 --> 00:01:54,264 Well, I had been working for 10 years in the same business in different companies 24 00:01:54,264 --> 00:02:03,704 and the last company where I was working was producing corporate films and also 25 00:02:03,704 --> 00:02:05,744 films for association. 26 00:02:06,304 --> 00:02:14,284 And I had met Charles two years before and he was very young. 27 00:02:14,284 --> 00:02:15,680 He was... 28 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:27,720 He was 23 when we met and we worked together but he was a freelance for 29 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,240 working for our company. 30 00:02:31,540 --> 00:02:43,840 And well you worked on different projects as a director for one and also assistant 31 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:45,220 director 32 00:02:45,798 --> 00:02:56,341 on others and you helped me also for commercial, well for trying to to trying 33 00:02:56,341 --> 00:03:08,474 to find new new clients and well we very quickly felt that we had the same will of 34 00:03:08,474 --> 00:03:14,396 of launching a company and and fortunately it was the same 35 00:03:14,842 --> 00:03:17,803 a company that we wanted to create. 36 00:03:18,393 --> 00:03:25,931 And how did you go about growing the business and kind of what were some of the 37 00:03:25,931 --> 00:03:28,616 key clients that you picked up along the 38 00:03:30,184 --> 00:03:36,018 In fact, we started in the attic of Laura's house. 39 00:03:36,099 --> 00:03:43,565 So we were only together on the idea, on two ideas at the beginning. 40 00:03:43,565 --> 00:03:54,193 The first one was to be creative, to have different ways of telling stories. 41 00:03:55,435 --> 00:03:58,657 And the first year, 42 00:03:59,864 --> 00:04:10,858 We made three films, one with some papers that we cut in order to organize a movie. 43 00:04:11,359 --> 00:04:13,740 It was in motion. 44 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:19,282 And the second one with interviews, but very, very clever, very different. 45 00:04:19,582 --> 00:04:27,185 And the last one was something very cool, too. 46 00:04:27,185 --> 00:04:28,866 And we won. 47 00:04:29,218 --> 00:04:35,080 two awards at the end of this first year. 48 00:04:35,980 --> 00:04:45,783 and it was finally it was important for us to be recognized by customers on these 49 00:04:45,783 --> 00:04:55,496 festivals and it was very helpful for to follow and to grow up our business after 50 00:04:55,496 --> 00:04:56,246 that. 51 00:04:56,552 --> 00:05:00,395 And at the beginning, well, we had no reference. 52 00:05:00,395 --> 00:05:14,567 And so our way of trying to find new clients, well, clients, was to look to 53 00:05:14,567 --> 00:05:20,872 their website and try to understand what were their main issues. 54 00:05:20,953 --> 00:05:23,034 And we wrote them. 55 00:05:23,555 --> 00:05:24,675 Well, we... 56 00:05:25,458 --> 00:05:37,435 if you need to hire new people, if you need to work on your image, if you need to 57 00:05:37,435 --> 00:05:38,655 etc. 58 00:05:38,655 --> 00:05:43,417 we would like to create a film that would be... 59 00:05:43,978 --> 00:05:54,344 we just exposed the films we imagined for them and we proposed five, six, ten ideas 60 00:05:54,344 --> 00:05:55,444 of films. 61 00:05:55,528 --> 00:06:04,645 and we just described the concepts and usually they appreciated because we had 62 00:06:04,645 --> 00:06:11,199 already worked on their issues and we proposed interesting concepts. 63 00:06:11,199 --> 00:06:19,325 And the first client we had was La Poste, so the French post office. 64 00:06:19,585 --> 00:06:21,747 Post, how do you say that? 65 00:06:21,747 --> 00:06:23,628 Post office, yes. 66 00:06:23,698 --> 00:06:29,470 And so it was a quite huge client for the first client. 67 00:06:29,470 --> 00:06:35,173 And well, today we are still working for La Poste and we never stopped. 68 00:06:35,173 --> 00:06:47,898 So one other key that was at the beginning of the company was to Fideliser. 69 00:06:49,721 --> 00:06:53,136 to stay with and to retain. 70 00:06:53,146 --> 00:07:01,370 retain, yes, the first key was to retain clients and trying, after making one, they 71 00:07:01,370 --> 00:07:09,783 have to have the desire to create another one with us and and well we we've done it 72 00:07:09,783 --> 00:07:11,044 quite well. 73 00:07:11,297 --> 00:07:12,568 Yeah. 74 00:07:12,568 --> 00:07:17,984 And tell me a little bit about what were your sort of family situations when you 75 00:07:17,984 --> 00:07:20,596 started and how did that kind of develop? 76 00:07:20,596 --> 00:07:24,871 Cause I know this is going to lead on to our conversation about what the decisions 77 00:07:24,871 --> 00:07:27,663 that you made when it, when it came to kind of selling the company. 78 00:07:27,663 --> 00:07:31,467 But yeah, can you tell me a bit about your, each of your family situation? 79 00:07:33,152 --> 00:07:35,482 Charles, well, in fact... 80 00:07:35,482 --> 00:07:36,802 I can start. 81 00:07:36,822 --> 00:07:41,642 In fact, I was just married in 2000. 82 00:07:42,482 --> 00:07:47,142 And so we have launched Tulips two years after. 83 00:07:47,922 --> 00:07:55,402 So we were together with my wife and without any children at this time. 84 00:07:55,522 --> 00:08:01,082 And we had our first son in 2004. 85 00:08:01,102 --> 00:08:04,082 So two years after the beginning of Tulips. 86 00:08:04,741 --> 00:08:16,549 and in fact in fact in fact it's my sister -in -law who spoke with Charles at his 87 00:08:16,549 --> 00:08:28,428 wedding and she she understood that he had studied in cinema and she felt that we 88 00:08:28,428 --> 00:08:32,050 could get along well 89 00:08:32,614 --> 00:08:43,912 and and so yes and the day after charles wedding she phoned me and say and said 90 00:08:43,912 --> 00:08:52,879 well i've met the the son of of one of my best friends you should meet him he's 91 00:08:52,879 --> 00:09:00,294 going to look for job and i think you could you could do something together 92 00:09:01,246 --> 00:09:10,292 And so I obeyed to my sister -in -law and it was a good idea. 93 00:09:10,476 --> 00:09:12,649 And you had only one daughter, Laura. 94 00:09:15,136 --> 00:09:25,876 Yes, yes, I am 10 years older than Charles, so I was 33 at that time, and I 95 00:09:25,876 --> 00:09:36,836 had only one daughter, and my husband was already working in a big company where he 96 00:09:36,836 --> 00:09:45,096 is still now, and he had already occupied different positions. 97 00:09:45,156 --> 00:09:52,391 as finance director and communication director and marketing director. 98 00:09:52,391 --> 00:10:02,707 So he had already a large experience in a large company and that has been really 99 00:10:04,288 --> 00:10:10,713 precious for us several times in our history. 100 00:10:10,713 --> 00:10:11,633 Okay. 101 00:10:11,633 --> 00:10:14,753 And so fast forward to today. 102 00:10:14,753 --> 00:10:18,993 I know that you've got 18 full -time employees. 103 00:10:19,233 --> 00:10:23,273 Can you give me a sense of the size of the business? 104 00:10:23,273 --> 00:10:26,893 What kind of turnover are you doing? 105 00:10:27,534 --> 00:10:36,694 So yes, today we have a permanent team of 18 people and of course we have many 106 00:10:36,694 --> 00:10:37,954 freelances. 107 00:10:37,954 --> 00:10:46,314 So it depends on each month, but it's between 80 people and 200 people each 108 00:10:46,314 --> 00:10:47,314 month. 109 00:10:48,314 --> 00:10:54,394 And we produce something around 700 films each year. 110 00:10:55,086 --> 00:11:03,666 and our turnover is around 8 and 9 million euros each year. 111 00:11:06,146 --> 00:11:13,226 So we produce mainly corporate films, but also many films for museums. 112 00:11:14,806 --> 00:11:22,266 And the genre is different, so we can produce fiction, documentaries, 113 00:11:24,798 --> 00:11:31,187 3D animation, VR experiences, or AR experiences. 114 00:11:31,188 --> 00:11:34,953 So it depends on each topic and customer. 115 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:50,300 And in the 18 team workers, we have seven producers, seven production managers, one 116 00:11:50,300 --> 00:11:57,560 post production director, and three administrative employees. 117 00:11:58,370 --> 00:11:59,111 that's interesting. 118 00:11:59,111 --> 00:12:05,361 So you've just got production people and on, on staff, and then all of the 119 00:12:05,361 --> 00:12:08,375 filmmakers are freelance. 120 00:12:08,904 --> 00:12:14,167 Yes, yes, and that was a choice at the beginning, and we never changed that. 121 00:12:14,167 --> 00:12:22,161 It's really something that constitutes our DNA, and that was because we wanted to be 122 00:12:22,161 --> 00:12:31,337 creative, and so we wanted to have the freedom of choosing the director for the 123 00:12:31,337 --> 00:12:37,440 film, and we felt the freedom would be bigger 124 00:12:37,842 --> 00:12:45,329 we could choose directors that would be outside the company. 125 00:12:49,475 --> 00:12:58,290 So tell me a bit about how you came to start to think about selling the company 126 00:12:58,290 --> 00:13:01,706 or passing on the ownership into new hands. 127 00:13:01,706 --> 00:13:04,119 When did you first start talking about 128 00:13:07,020 --> 00:13:09,442 I would say three or four years ago. 129 00:13:09,622 --> 00:13:12,064 Perhaps more, more, even more. 130 00:13:12,064 --> 00:13:15,546 No, no, six, five or six years ago. 131 00:13:15,887 --> 00:13:18,088 Five or six years ago. 132 00:13:18,649 --> 00:13:28,416 Before that, we sometimes joked, sorry, we sometimes joked saying, well, because 133 00:13:28,416 --> 00:13:31,368 Charles now has four children and I have three. 134 00:13:31,368 --> 00:13:32,038 And... 135 00:13:34,846 --> 00:13:41,180 we were saying, they have to know each other because one day perhaps they will 136 00:13:41,180 --> 00:13:42,550 have to run the company. 137 00:13:42,550 --> 00:13:50,465 And it was funny to think of them running the company because they were just young, 138 00:13:50,625 --> 00:13:51,865 very young. 139 00:13:53,367 --> 00:14:02,792 But it felt a bit strange and kind of unfair to think that our children would... 140 00:14:03,552 --> 00:14:09,152 be the the boss of Tulip & Company in the future. 141 00:14:09,452 --> 00:14:16,992 And one day we were gathered with my husband and also, no perhaps only, we were 142 00:14:16,992 --> 00:14:25,432 three, yes we were three gathered, three shareholders, and we thought is it really 143 00:14:25,432 --> 00:14:33,522 fair to to think that our children will be Tulip & Company shareholders? 144 00:14:33,522 --> 00:14:37,055 Is it really a nice gift for them? 145 00:14:38,697 --> 00:14:45,362 Perhaps they want to do something else, and perhaps it's too heavy for them to 146 00:14:45,362 --> 00:14:53,329 have this obligation to take over the company when they're grown up? 147 00:14:53,649 --> 00:14:57,252 And is it fair for our colleagues? 148 00:14:59,114 --> 00:15:00,294 Today, the... 149 00:15:01,812 --> 00:15:05,276 the shareholders are the boss of the company. 150 00:15:06,779 --> 00:15:14,239 And it seems more natural that in our business, it seems natural that 151 00:15:14,239 --> 00:15:18,234 shareholders and bosses are the same. 152 00:15:19,008 --> 00:15:27,465 And yeah, and just to add something, at the same time, we were close to one of our 153 00:15:27,465 --> 00:15:38,754 colleagues, who is Camille, the clerk, and she was interested by becoming a 154 00:15:38,754 --> 00:15:41,596 shareholder of Tulips. 155 00:15:41,677 --> 00:15:48,061 And for us, was an opportunity at the same time, because 156 00:15:49,843 --> 00:16:02,549 we had trust with her together and she was younger than us and there is something 157 00:16:03,250 --> 00:16:11,405 very good on that way and then we had a big discussion together with Laure and 158 00:16:11,405 --> 00:16:17,748 Laurent just to imagine what we want together. 159 00:16:17,998 --> 00:16:28,838 And in 2018, we have decided to welcome Camille as a shareholder. 160 00:16:30,158 --> 00:16:47,278 And we said at this time that Tulips and Company has to be owned by... 161 00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:51,293 by future directors of Tulips. 162 00:16:51,934 --> 00:17:01,043 And I think it was key because we start like that and in our mind, the goal is to 163 00:17:01,043 --> 00:17:06,087 find these directors within Tulips. 164 00:17:06,347 --> 00:17:08,889 And the first one was Camille. 165 00:17:09,902 --> 00:17:20,848 but after saying that, it wasn't easy to find the solution to, well, find a way of 166 00:17:21,589 --> 00:17:31,935 selling tulips and company without forcing the people chosen to be shareholders to 167 00:17:33,706 --> 00:17:43,002 borrow money to the bank because one of our core values is also freedom and 168 00:17:43,623 --> 00:17:52,068 freedom that means no no debts yes 169 00:17:52,275 --> 00:17:54,058 financial pressure. 170 00:17:54,924 --> 00:18:08,128 We've never had debts and we didn't want to force our successors to borrow money to 171 00:18:08,248 --> 00:18:11,309 buy shares. 172 00:18:11,569 --> 00:18:21,505 And that wasn't easy to imagine the way to the dispositive. 173 00:18:21,505 --> 00:18:23,316 Yeah. 174 00:18:23,316 --> 00:18:30,801 So how did you go about doing the research into the different ways that you could 175 00:18:30,801 --> 00:18:33,593 sell the company to its employees? 176 00:18:36,254 --> 00:18:48,107 Just to begin, before that, in fact, there is also a question of age for law, I 177 00:18:48,107 --> 00:18:53,239 think, and for me, just to be... 178 00:18:53,239 --> 00:18:59,541 Because we launched Tulips together, but we know that in few years, in four, five, 179 00:18:59,541 --> 00:19:05,282 six years, I don't know, and we will see, that's perfect like 180 00:19:06,692 --> 00:19:12,498 we have to welcome new shareholders. 181 00:19:13,020 --> 00:19:18,586 And it was important for us for the future of tulips. 182 00:19:19,392 --> 00:19:21,932 Well, I'm sorry. 183 00:19:21,932 --> 00:19:26,372 Yes, our position is not exactly the same as I told you. 184 00:19:26,452 --> 00:19:29,232 I'm 10 years older than Charles. 185 00:19:29,232 --> 00:19:34,832 So for me, it's more an exit plan than for Charles. 186 00:19:35,392 --> 00:19:41,728 For me, it's, well, in fact, well, I don't know. 187 00:19:41,728 --> 00:19:47,848 what will be the age of retirement in France because it's a big issue in our 188 00:19:47,848 --> 00:19:49,488 country at the moment. 189 00:19:49,488 --> 00:20:01,228 But I'm 57, so in seven years maximum, I will retire. 190 00:20:01,368 --> 00:20:11,448 And so we felt we had to solve this problem before facing it. 191 00:20:12,601 --> 00:20:17,166 It's not in five years that we have to find a solution. 192 00:20:17,166 --> 00:20:22,871 We knew that we had to find solutions earlier. 193 00:20:23,012 --> 00:20:28,397 And for Charles, it's different. 194 00:20:28,478 --> 00:20:29,108 It's more... 195 00:20:29,108 --> 00:20:29,778 Yes. 196 00:20:31,432 --> 00:20:33,193 It's not an exit plan. 197 00:20:33,193 --> 00:20:38,175 And I think it's more an existing plan, in fact. 198 00:20:39,076 --> 00:20:47,580 But for three main reasons, this is a big opportunity at the same time for me. 199 00:20:48,201 --> 00:20:57,666 Because in a small company and in our past pandemic new world, 200 00:20:58,142 --> 00:21:02,325 it's sometimes difficult to retain people. 201 00:21:02,846 --> 00:21:08,549 And of course, it's an opportunity to retain people. 202 00:21:09,631 --> 00:21:18,097 And it's also an opportunity to involve people in our small company without big 203 00:21:18,097 --> 00:21:24,201 evolutions, but with a big adventure at the end. 204 00:21:24,501 --> 00:21:25,301 And... 205 00:21:25,972 --> 00:21:33,076 And in fact, our purpose is to produce creative and meaningful media to build a 206 00:21:33,076 --> 00:21:35,407 more human and sustainable world. 207 00:21:36,288 --> 00:21:44,292 And we do that by developing a new business model where people are committed 208 00:21:44,292 --> 00:21:46,373 in their own company. 209 00:21:46,413 --> 00:21:50,576 I think it's important to feel that. 210 00:21:50,576 --> 00:21:55,438 And that's exactly what we felt during these two days. 211 00:21:55,445 --> 00:21:58,696 last week during our seminar. 212 00:21:59,971 --> 00:22:04,794 So how much, because I know that both of you are quite kind of passionate about 213 00:22:04,794 --> 00:22:10,018 sustainability and looking after people and doing the right thing by your 214 00:22:10,018 --> 00:22:10,478 employees. 215 00:22:10,478 --> 00:22:16,892 So how much did that kind of guide your decision making when it came to this? 216 00:22:19,618 --> 00:22:27,243 Yeah, it's totally connected to our CSR approach. 217 00:22:27,904 --> 00:22:39,062 And it was very funny because it was a labelization for Tulips just before we 218 00:22:39,062 --> 00:22:43,755 announced to our people what we had in mind. 219 00:22:45,036 --> 00:22:47,558 during this audit, 220 00:22:48,198 --> 00:22:50,539 with an inspector. 221 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:57,554 It was interesting to talk with him and to understand that what we imagine for 222 00:22:57,554 --> 00:23:08,200 Trilips and for people to become shareholders, it was exactly in line with 223 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,310 our CSR approach. 224 00:23:11,612 --> 00:23:16,334 It's also a question of governance, of course. 225 00:23:16,712 --> 00:23:20,935 and of participation. 226 00:23:20,935 --> 00:23:29,530 We want to share what we do and we want to share the direction of tulips with our 227 00:23:29,530 --> 00:23:30,400 people. 228 00:23:31,555 --> 00:23:37,208 So in practical terms, how did you go about doing this? 229 00:23:41,045 --> 00:23:46,828 As we said earlier, we didn't want our colleagues to borrow money in order to buy 230 00:23:46,828 --> 00:23:47,868 shares. 231 00:23:48,369 --> 00:23:54,342 We felt that it would be contrary to our spirit of independence, of freedom. 232 00:23:54,342 --> 00:23:59,665 And well, we spoke about my husband earlier. 233 00:23:59,665 --> 00:24:08,160 Well, he worked in finance and so he really worked a lot to find 234 00:24:08,852 --> 00:24:17,274 a solution and he came up with a creative solution and so we created a new company 235 00:24:17,394 --> 00:24:26,027 owned by all the people who work in Tulips that we call Ortus, not exactly all the 236 00:24:26,027 --> 00:24:33,929 people but people that we have agreed and that and who are in the company for more 237 00:24:33,929 --> 00:24:35,419 than two years. 238 00:24:39,976 --> 00:24:47,629 At the beginning, Tulips lent money to Ortus so that Ortus could buy shares in 239 00:24:47,629 --> 00:24:48,679 Tulips. 240 00:24:49,179 --> 00:24:56,341 And every year, a part of Tulip's profit goes to Ortus, which helps it increase its 241 00:24:56,341 --> 00:25:01,943 stake in Tulips until it becomes the only owner. 242 00:25:02,844 --> 00:25:04,844 Thus, at that time, 243 00:25:05,054 --> 00:25:10,345 The directors and the collaborators will be the new shareholders without having to 244 00:25:10,345 --> 00:25:13,180 take out a loan from the bank. 245 00:25:13,282 --> 00:25:16,808 And this will sustain our core value, independence. 246 00:25:18,201 --> 00:25:26,228 Okay, so how, so the, has that transfer happened now in terms of the ownership of 247 00:25:26,228 --> 00:25:27,529 Ortus? 248 00:25:27,549 --> 00:25:31,912 And do you still both have shares in that other company? 249 00:25:33,214 --> 00:25:34,855 Yes, yes we do. 250 00:25:34,970 --> 00:25:41,330 So in fact, we create this new company, Ortus, which is the staff company, 251 00:25:41,330 --> 00:25:50,410 finally, to buy Tulips and Company by steps every year. 252 00:25:50,790 --> 00:25:56,930 35 % are owned by founders. 253 00:25:57,430 --> 00:26:00,430 So Laurent, Camille, and I. 254 00:26:01,006 --> 00:26:12,346 And we have opened 65 % of the capital to employees, including Laura, Camille, and 255 00:26:14,158 --> 00:26:16,798 So that was the first step. 256 00:26:16,818 --> 00:26:26,538 And this new company is with a capital of 150 ,000 euros just to start. 257 00:26:27,238 --> 00:26:32,018 So 1 ,000 shares at 150 euros. 258 00:26:32,778 --> 00:26:41,238 And to get started, we made an interest -free loan of 500 ,000 provided by 259 00:26:41,238 --> 00:26:42,218 founders. 260 00:26:42,766 --> 00:26:54,686 And thanks to this loan, this new company took 20 % of the capital of Tulips. 261 00:26:55,206 --> 00:26:57,426 It was last year. 262 00:26:58,226 --> 00:27:05,426 And then each year, with the dividends received, Ortus repays part of the loan 263 00:27:05,426 --> 00:27:10,826 and purchases additional shares in Tulips. 264 00:27:10,846 --> 00:27:12,334 So this year... 265 00:27:12,334 --> 00:27:22,154 Autus has 23 % and next year probably 26 % and every year like that. 266 00:27:22,474 --> 00:27:28,414 And we have some conditions in our project. 267 00:27:28,954 --> 00:27:37,034 So the obligation to resell shares in the event of departure from Tulebs with a 268 00:27:37,034 --> 00:27:41,194 capital gain depending on the exit date. 269 00:27:42,639 --> 00:27:50,975 So the price is determined by a fixed calculation formula based on the results 270 00:27:50,975 --> 00:27:54,040 of the previous three years. 271 00:27:55,541 --> 00:27:56,403 I see. 272 00:27:56,403 --> 00:28:05,276 that gives you, and presumably if someone new joins, they are then able to buy in as 273 00:28:06,582 --> 00:28:17,047 Yeah, and in fact for that, Lohan had more shares at the beginning in order to sell 274 00:28:17,047 --> 00:28:20,812 these shares during the years. 275 00:28:21,473 --> 00:28:21,884 I see. 276 00:28:21,884 --> 00:28:25,836 so if someone have you had anyone leave yet? 277 00:28:25,836 --> 00:28:28,340 Have you had to deal with that situation? 278 00:28:28,340 --> 00:28:30,155 Yes, yes, we have one. 279 00:28:30,155 --> 00:28:35,556 Okay, and did that was it all kind of was it all clear and went to plan? 280 00:28:36,604 --> 00:28:46,575 It was clear and easy, even if she wasn't very happy with it, but it was the rule, 281 00:28:47,257 --> 00:28:49,355 so it wasn't difficult. 282 00:28:49,355 --> 00:28:50,065 Okay. 283 00:28:50,065 --> 00:28:52,567 And is this type of structure? 284 00:28:52,567 --> 00:28:57,579 Is this like a common way of doing things in France? 285 00:28:57,579 --> 00:29:03,412 Or is this something that your husband devised that was kind of unique to your 286 00:29:03,592 --> 00:29:04,593 situation? 287 00:29:06,746 --> 00:29:15,639 really imagined it and when he explained this idea to his banker, the banker was 288 00:29:15,639 --> 00:29:21,130 really very interested and said can I speak about that to other companies 289 00:29:21,130 --> 00:29:29,963 because it's smart and it can be helpful for a lot of other companies. 290 00:29:29,963 --> 00:29:32,343 So I don't think it's very usual. 291 00:29:32,723 --> 00:29:34,764 I'm sure there are other 292 00:29:35,260 --> 00:29:51,485 schemes of transmission, but this one is really a smooth way of selling the company 293 00:29:51,565 --> 00:29:59,687 and without a lot of effort for the people buying it, so it's really a positive. 294 00:29:59,829 --> 00:30:07,332 And what for you both as the founding shareholders, are there any kind of tax 295 00:30:07,332 --> 00:30:09,093 benefits to doing it this way? 296 00:30:09,093 --> 00:30:15,606 Or is there a sort of financial advantage or have you kind of chosen a route which 297 00:30:15,606 --> 00:30:19,457 actually isn't, that isn't necessarily the primary motivation? 298 00:30:24,338 --> 00:30:34,225 It was not the primary motivation but in fact because we had these chairs since a 299 00:30:34,225 --> 00:30:46,183 long time and we stay with these chairs for a few years it's also an advantage in 300 00:30:46,183 --> 00:30:48,064 terms of physicality. 301 00:30:49,833 --> 00:30:51,898 Okay, so essentially... 302 00:30:52,594 --> 00:30:58,556 And in fact, we had three key rules in this project. 303 00:30:58,556 --> 00:31:04,738 The first one was what said law, so the shareholding was not intended to force 304 00:31:04,738 --> 00:31:06,918 newcomers to borrow money. 305 00:31:07,798 --> 00:31:15,221 But the second one is that the project had to be relevant and interesting for funders 306 00:31:15,221 --> 00:31:16,181 too. 307 00:31:18,421 --> 00:31:20,422 And the final one, 308 00:31:20,842 --> 00:31:28,676 I think the most important is that we really wanted to stay independent without 309 00:31:28,676 --> 00:31:37,440 any bank or debt, which is key for a sustainable future for our company. 310 00:31:38,073 --> 00:31:44,758 Because essentially the setup means that the company is using its own money, 311 00:31:44,859 --> 00:31:47,600 really, to buy you out. 312 00:31:47,661 --> 00:31:53,425 but you're completely comfortable with that, are 313 00:31:56,054 --> 00:32:11,308 Yeah, in fact, that's very fun at the end because if we win a lot of projects and if 314 00:32:11,308 --> 00:32:20,260 it's a big year for us, of course, we will have more dividends at the end. 315 00:32:20,441 --> 00:32:25,442 And at the same time, the value of our company is bigger. 316 00:32:27,118 --> 00:32:37,478 So we have more money to buy something which is more interesting and with more 317 00:32:37,478 --> 00:32:38,398 value. 318 00:32:39,038 --> 00:32:42,438 So at the end, that's quite the same. 319 00:32:42,438 --> 00:32:50,298 Of course, the value could be more interesting for everyone or less, but it 320 00:32:50,298 --> 00:32:53,398 will be around 10 years. 321 00:32:55,936 --> 00:33:01,982 and even if it's big years or small years. 322 00:33:02,105 --> 00:33:03,225 Okay. 323 00:33:03,765 --> 00:33:08,805 So over the so in 10 years or in seven years time, when it when this completes 324 00:33:08,805 --> 00:33:12,425 the, the employees will own 65%. 325 00:33:12,425 --> 00:33:14,125 You will retain. 326 00:33:14,525 --> 00:33:15,325 Okay. 327 00:33:17,145 --> 00:33:21,345 I had another question and it's just gone from my head. 328 00:33:22,565 --> 00:33:25,165 What was it? 329 00:33:25,205 --> 00:33:26,925 It's completely gone. 330 00:33:27,708 --> 00:33:28,931 Hahaha 331 00:33:30,698 --> 00:33:36,827 We can tell you what happened when we informed our colleagues. 332 00:33:36,827 --> 00:33:37,228 yeah. 333 00:33:37,228 --> 00:33:37,602 Yeah. 334 00:33:37,602 --> 00:33:38,114 Yeah. 335 00:33:38,114 --> 00:33:39,589 How did they respond? 336 00:33:41,396 --> 00:33:50,010 well very well they were a little surprised but not totally surprised 337 00:33:50,010 --> 00:34:00,184 because I think it's so coherent with all our way of managing tulips that it wasn't 338 00:34:00,184 --> 00:34:07,228 that surprising and they were really very... 339 00:34:07,228 --> 00:34:08,638 how would you say that? 340 00:34:09,356 --> 00:34:18,340 grateful, they were very grateful because it was a recognition of the importance 341 00:34:18,340 --> 00:34:27,604 that we see in each person and that was really a great day we will never forget 342 00:34:27,744 --> 00:34:37,068 and we we had a few drinks after that and and it was really what struck me most was 343 00:34:37,504 --> 00:34:44,204 that I heard the two youngest speaking together and saying, well, in 25 years, 344 00:34:44,204 --> 00:34:49,924 you will be the finance director and I will be the producer. 345 00:34:51,184 --> 00:35:00,424 it was really fun to see how they were imagining their future within Tulips and 346 00:35:00,424 --> 00:35:02,564 Company on a very long term. 347 00:35:02,564 --> 00:35:06,708 I'm not sure that they will stay within Tulips. 348 00:35:06,708 --> 00:35:09,660 that long, that time, all that time. 349 00:35:09,660 --> 00:35:18,125 But for the moment, they are really involved in our adventure and that's 350 00:35:18,125 --> 00:35:18,565 great. 351 00:35:18,565 --> 00:35:24,458 And we were saying at the beginning that last week we were in a seminar, an annual 352 00:35:24,458 --> 00:35:32,603 seminar in the countryside and you really felt an engagement of all the crew that is 353 00:35:32,603 --> 00:35:34,894 incredible, incredible. 354 00:35:35,191 --> 00:35:40,954 And how will you manage the sort of management of this new business? 355 00:35:40,954 --> 00:35:45,216 Because it's, we'll have a lot of shareholders and what provisions have you 356 00:35:45,216 --> 00:35:51,879 put in place for, is there a kind of lead managing director or how have you 357 00:35:51,879 --> 00:35:52,829 approached 358 00:35:55,246 --> 00:35:59,326 To be honest, we don't really know. 359 00:36:00,406 --> 00:36:08,546 Because, no, in fact, we had this discussion with Laurent and we said, we 360 00:36:08,546 --> 00:36:15,426 will see during 10 years, it will happen many, things during these years. 361 00:36:15,766 --> 00:36:24,006 But what we know is that we create an executive committee. 362 00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:33,575 within tulips, with law, with our financial director, with the director of 363 00:36:33,575 --> 00:36:36,817 production and the director of sales. 364 00:36:38,258 --> 00:36:49,884 And it's very important to make decisions on our daily basis, sales and work. 365 00:36:52,778 --> 00:37:00,575 And we organized, for example, together the seminar in order to ask the good 366 00:37:00,575 --> 00:37:06,830 questions to our people and to share on the future of tulips. 367 00:37:07,931 --> 00:37:13,165 So we share a lot and we share our vision with them. 368 00:37:13,165 --> 00:37:21,302 And for example, there is a key fact because we don't want to grow too much. 369 00:37:22,982 --> 00:37:29,334 And sometimes it's difficult to understand and to do that. 370 00:37:29,334 --> 00:37:41,287 So we have to explain and we have to find solutions together in order to choose the 371 00:37:41,287 --> 00:37:45,648 good projects, to develop these kind of projects. 372 00:37:46,069 --> 00:37:51,490 So we want to dig our own furrow, in 373 00:37:52,875 --> 00:37:59,869 So, for example, our project, our purpose is to produce less media, but more 374 00:37:59,869 --> 00:38:03,221 ambitious and better. 375 00:38:04,883 --> 00:38:14,809 And at the same time, we are committed to a pragmatic and ambitious CSR approach, 376 00:38:15,210 --> 00:38:19,492 which is one of our fundamental principles. 377 00:38:21,454 --> 00:38:26,434 We try to do rather than say. 378 00:38:26,794 --> 00:38:29,834 So it's a long way. 379 00:38:30,414 --> 00:38:36,154 For example, we have been calculating the carbon footprint of all our projects since 380 00:38:36,154 --> 00:38:46,294 2018, reducing what we can reduce through our choices and through our organization 381 00:38:46,294 --> 00:38:48,654 with our customers. 382 00:38:51,047 --> 00:38:59,671 and by bringing on board our service providers, freelancers, suppliers, but of 383 00:38:59,671 --> 00:39:02,092 course our staff. 384 00:39:02,313 --> 00:39:08,676 So they have to be involved in this area with us. 385 00:39:08,676 --> 00:39:16,921 And of course, it's more interesting if they are involved in this perspective, but 386 00:39:16,921 --> 00:39:19,362 also as shareholders. 387 00:39:21,371 --> 00:39:35,583 So on your question, I think it's important to launch a new dialogue. 388 00:39:36,004 --> 00:39:43,590 And at the same time, because of shareholders, we have to make decisions 389 00:39:44,551 --> 00:39:48,364 each year and sometimes each month. 390 00:39:48,404 --> 00:39:58,042 And so we hear people, but at the end, we have to decide something. 391 00:39:58,042 --> 00:40:05,408 We can't stay with everyone and with each voice. 392 00:40:05,769 --> 00:40:09,231 We have to organize this dialogue. 393 00:40:09,552 --> 00:40:12,244 So it takes time, but it's helpful. 394 00:40:13,504 --> 00:40:17,657 colleague Camille is the president of Ortus. 395 00:40:17,657 --> 00:40:25,662 So we chose that it would be someone else, the third shareholder. 396 00:40:25,703 --> 00:40:32,667 And I think that it's also a symbol because she's younger than the two of us. 397 00:40:35,669 --> 00:40:38,551 And so it's a first step to... 398 00:40:39,752 --> 00:40:42,631 to sharing our governance. 399 00:40:42,679 --> 00:40:51,434 So sort of looking back on this project that you've put together, with the benefit 400 00:40:51,434 --> 00:40:54,767 of hindsight, is there anything that you think you would do differently if you were 401 00:40:54,767 --> 00:40:55,917 to do it again? 402 00:41:01,454 --> 00:41:02,875 No, for me, no. 403 00:41:02,875 --> 00:41:05,707 In fact, I'm very lucky like that. 404 00:41:05,707 --> 00:41:13,582 I remember the day when we exposed the project. 405 00:41:14,663 --> 00:41:27,592 And I remember one person representing the staff who stood up and addressed everyone 406 00:41:28,273 --> 00:41:30,582 saying, how lucky. 407 00:41:30,582 --> 00:41:35,265 they all were to have come across us. 408 00:41:35,265 --> 00:41:40,889 So it was, of course, very strong to us at the same time. 409 00:41:42,030 --> 00:41:51,436 I remember one of our people in finance who is very young and said, OK, I don't 410 00:41:51,436 --> 00:41:58,651 know if I can put some money, but I see all the key figures all the day because 411 00:41:58,651 --> 00:42:00,106 I'm on finance. 412 00:42:00,106 --> 00:42:08,771 And if I can do that, I bring many, many mallets with money. 413 00:42:10,053 --> 00:42:11,614 So it was fun. 414 00:42:12,455 --> 00:42:21,221 Another one who is in production and very strong to deal with suppliers said, OK, 415 00:42:21,221 --> 00:42:22,291 that's very interesting. 416 00:42:22,291 --> 00:42:23,562 I want to be part of it. 417 00:42:23,562 --> 00:42:29,440 But can I buy something this year? 418 00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,551 and more next year. 419 00:42:31,791 --> 00:42:37,083 And I have a discount next year and everything like that. 420 00:42:37,083 --> 00:42:40,565 So it was very funny to see that. 421 00:42:40,565 --> 00:42:41,020 So. 422 00:42:41,020 --> 00:42:43,746 market, trading. 423 00:42:47,198 --> 00:42:55,327 yes and even when our colleague left us, the one who left us, well she had to sell 424 00:42:55,327 --> 00:43:04,086 her shares and some of other colleagues asked if they could buy the new shares and 425 00:43:04,086 --> 00:43:04,489 we... 426 00:43:04,489 --> 00:43:06,154 what was she not happy about? 427 00:43:06,154 --> 00:43:08,400 What was her issue? 428 00:43:09,617 --> 00:43:11,540 She was a bit difficult. 429 00:43:12,644 --> 00:43:15,268 It's difficult to speak about her, but... 430 00:43:16,257 --> 00:43:18,720 I can cut that out if you want. 431 00:43:19,141 --> 00:43:20,713 Yeah, yeah, no problem. 432 00:43:20,713 --> 00:43:21,764 Yeah. 433 00:43:22,855 --> 00:43:29,867 yeah, have to, I think it's, yeah, we have to cut that after, we can share with you, 434 00:43:29,867 --> 00:43:30,857 Barnaby. 435 00:43:31,137 --> 00:43:38,699 So finally we have fired her because it was difficult. 436 00:43:38,699 --> 00:43:43,621 She wanted to be a boss, a big boss in our company. 437 00:43:43,621 --> 00:43:46,941 And in fact, finally we have no boss. 438 00:43:50,211 --> 00:43:57,317 Of course, we've learned we are the bosses, but our Yeruashi is very, 439 00:43:57,908 --> 00:43:58,694 flat. 440 00:44:00,717 --> 00:44:02,207 Yeah, flat. 441 00:44:02,207 --> 00:44:02,987 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 442 00:44:02,987 --> 00:44:05,407 flat, thank you, flat. 443 00:44:06,048 --> 00:44:07,328 And it doesn't work like that. 444 00:44:07,328 --> 00:44:16,911 So we ask for many things and to write a strategy in order to imagine what could be 445 00:44:16,930 --> 00:44:20,852 this new market and a new project. 446 00:44:20,852 --> 00:44:23,233 And it doesn't work at all. 447 00:44:23,233 --> 00:44:27,894 And then we had to fire her. 448 00:44:28,414 --> 00:44:33,278 And it was hard for her and for us. 449 00:44:34,479 --> 00:44:41,895 But finally, thanks to our status, everything was clear. 450 00:44:41,895 --> 00:44:46,088 And we knew exactly what to do. 451 00:44:47,249 --> 00:44:51,652 So for this part, was quite easy, fortunately. 452 00:44:52,429 --> 00:44:53,980 Yeah, okay. 453 00:44:53,980 --> 00:44:56,421 That bit will cut out. 454 00:44:56,421 --> 00:45:03,197 it, in terms of legally putting this together, did it cost much money to do it? 455 00:45:03,197 --> 00:45:06,480 Did you have to get lots of lawyers involved? 456 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:07,961 Or how did that 457 00:45:09,526 --> 00:45:12,147 Thanks to Laurent, not at all. 458 00:45:13,229 --> 00:45:26,958 Laurent was at the head of this project in terms of finance and terms of laws too. 459 00:45:27,118 --> 00:45:30,801 So it cost nothing. 460 00:45:34,964 --> 00:45:38,060 And on your first question and the question 461 00:45:38,060 --> 00:45:41,012 what we have to do differently. 462 00:45:42,053 --> 00:45:47,398 In fact, there is one thing, I don't know how to do that, probably one thing, 463 00:45:47,398 --> 00:45:55,885 because we told to each people that we should ask them personally and 464 00:45:55,885 --> 00:46:04,221 confidentially by mail if they were interested and what share they wish to 465 00:46:04,221 --> 00:46:05,172 buy. 466 00:46:06,253 --> 00:46:07,674 And of course, 467 00:46:08,830 --> 00:46:15,742 everyone was very interested and they wanted more than we can sell. 468 00:46:15,742 --> 00:46:27,106 So of course we warned them that the current owners will retain a significant 469 00:46:27,106 --> 00:46:32,877 share in the company and that no one will have the share they might hope for. 470 00:46:35,054 --> 00:46:42,554 Of course, there is something after that when you say, you ask for 4%, but finally 471 00:46:42,554 --> 00:46:47,234 you only will have 2%. 472 00:46:47,234 --> 00:46:51,214 You can have some deception. 473 00:46:52,094 --> 00:46:57,154 And also because you have a comparison with others. 474 00:46:57,614 --> 00:47:04,134 So it was important also to explain, to explain really 475 00:47:04,690 --> 00:47:14,196 why this guy or this woman has four persons and this one six and this one two. 476 00:47:14,196 --> 00:47:21,820 So this part was the most difficult part. 477 00:47:24,101 --> 00:47:33,004 After we explained it was easy and it was okay but you can explain before 478 00:47:33,004 --> 00:47:36,118 that you can't buy what you want. 479 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:40,416 When you know that you can't buy, it's sometimes difficult. 480 00:47:40,811 --> 00:47:42,222 Yeah, yeah. 481 00:47:42,222 --> 00:47:42,962 Okay. 482 00:47:42,962 --> 00:47:45,083 Well, great. 483 00:47:45,083 --> 00:47:48,385 mean, thank you very much for sharing that story. 484 00:47:48,385 --> 00:47:52,567 And I think that's that's probably a good place to to wrap it up. 485 00:47:52,768 --> 00:47:55,749 Is there anything else you wanted to add about the process? 486 00:47:58,118 --> 00:48:02,802 not really about the process, but at the end there is something a little bit 487 00:48:02,802 --> 00:48:14,340 strange because on the one hand it's fundamental change with our team and on 488 00:48:14,340 --> 00:48:19,414 the other hand it doesn't change anything on a daily basis. 489 00:48:20,155 --> 00:48:24,838 So we deal on salaries and... 490 00:48:25,056 --> 00:48:33,270 and we talk about everything like before and at the same time in terms of vision of 491 00:48:33,270 --> 00:48:39,410 sharing about 3Dips and its future, it's very different. 492 00:48:40,700 --> 00:48:51,784 Yes and really it strengthens the company and the spirit of the company and we all 493 00:48:51,784 --> 00:48:58,967 share really the same goal to produce creative films for useful issues and 494 00:48:58,967 --> 00:49:02,568 that's really a great thing to live. 495 00:49:03,939 --> 00:49:04,260 Great. 496 00:49:04,260 --> 00:49:04,911 OK.