The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do
we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the
Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There
are really big, deep questions that we ask each
other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves.
And that's why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in
our understanding of who God is, his word and the way that
he's called us to live. Hey,
everyone. Thank you for joining us, the cultivate podcast.
I am Charlie lead pastor at the Grove Church and we have
with us Abigail Boone. What's
up? Expert producer. Hey. Queen of asking
questions. Indeed. The queen of curiosity
and thoughtfulness and just deep questions. Thank you. So you
always always know that it's gonna be a good episode It's
curiosity. When you're sitting right there. Digs deep. No. No. I mean, I'm not no.
That's no shot at Mark. So I just I just know it's gonna be a
good episode because you're here. How are you doing? I'm I'm great. I'm glad to
be here. Good. Good. So as
you know and you know maybe that we have been
covering a lot of different topics over the course of the last
several weeks and kind of birthed out of a summer
seminar class that we did where we had different speakers come
in. Also known as SummerSlam. Hey, yo. That's
right. That's what I like. You like you prefer SummerSlam?
This sounds like we're doing, like, WrestleMania. If I called it SummerSlam, would
you have made a wrestling logo for it? Absolutely. Yes.
Put that down for next year. Put that in your Monday book or whatever it
is you've done. And so I was
out of town for a couple of them, and I spoke at a couple of
them. You you make the most of them, all of them? Yes. Okay. Other
than the one about how to read the Bible or, like, tips on that, but
all the rest of them, they're awesome. Yeah. It it was a really it was
a really cool really cool deal. And so if I was the
speaker, you've been interviewing me and other speakers, I interviewed
them to kinda just get some of that information out. And so the last
topic that we did was? Revelation. Revelation.
You said it singular. I did. I did that yesterday. What's
that? Wednesday. Wednesday. Wednesday.
Just one revelation. One revel just one long revelation. Right.
Right. Not a series of revelations. Unlike the Psalms
Right. Which are a collection of Psalms. Mhmm. And But each
individual chapter is a Psalm. Is a Psalm. Right.
And these are the acts, plural, of Of the apostles. Of
the apostles. Not the one act. But one revelation
of John. Right. Yes. Okay. John. John. Yep.
Oh, we're already learning something. No. Is it the John? The
John. Well, there's 3 Johns. 1st and second and third John.
Is it that guy? That's three letters, but by the same John.
1st John, 2nd John, 3rd John is not a reference to the
John, but the Oh. The the letter
itself. Okay. The first letter of John, the second letter of John is
3rd John's 3rd letter, 1st John, 3rd John. Okay. But All the same
guy. Can you imagine? But what's your name to the John? I'm 3rd
John. He must say come in late. Just one John,
one John who wrote the gospel of John, one John who wrote those three
letters, and one John that wrote the book of Revelation,
singular. Okay. Same same guy, the apostle alive.
The apostle, also referred to by himself
in the gospel of John as the disciple that Jesus loved. That's
Which that's that's something else. I'm gonna start saying
that I am the staff member that Charlie loves. No. I love
it. I love it. I love it. Test that out at staff meeting, and let
me know how let me know how that goes. Mhmm.
Yeah. So the questions about
the book of Revelation and do you remember specifically what the what
the big picture question was? Why should we
study it? Yeah. Bingo. Something like that. I'm
good. Right? And so I remember the in
the series that we did with Mark that,
his question was, how do I interact with people of other religions? Right. And
then he just didn't answer it. And it took us 4 I feel like it
took us 4 episodes. To kind of kinda get a
tryna get an answer. So are you gonna answer?
Well, you're the asking the questions. I'm trying to transition to you to ask us.
So I'll answer whatever question you I'll answer whatever question you ask.
Okay. And so we'll nail down why should you send this
book. Okay. Alright. And so the thing that
I said then, which I'll say now because it's in the Bible? Yeah. I mean,
at at its simplest, we could have a 5 second answer to that question,
which is I mean, it's it's in there. Right. I mean
Yeah. So there's that.
But I'm guessing that most people mean something different than that. Have
you ever asked that question? Ever read have you ever read or studied
Revelation? I think I started
it once k. And I didn't make it all all the way
through because it kind of reminded me of Hebrews.
Okay. This is just, like, kinda going over my head I'm not I'm not tracking
what you there are way too many metaphors and illustrations here. Yes. Yes. I
don't know who Melchizedek is in Hebrews, and I don't know what this dragon is
about here in Revelation. And I don't know what this is about my personality, but
it was like, you know what? That's happening in the future. May not be there.
Right. And I think that is kind of part of the heart behind the
question. Mhmm. I read this, and I'm just confused.
Mhmm. It doesn't seem to be teaching me anything about the
way that I should live life. And I think for most of us, that
is the practical real reason why we study the
Bible. Mhmm. I like I you know, what kind
of person should I be? Right. What application can I Yeah? Or
work from this. What is this going to tell me about who God is? Like,
so I want it to lead me to some sort of worship or deeper
knowledge of God, or I want it to
help me understand how to be a better person, how to
live more the live the Christian life in a better way.
This doesn't seem to be doing Right. Either of those things.
It's not a it's not a it's not a story where I'm just, oh, it's
a really interesting story. It doesn't feel like that either.
Right. Feels really weird, metaphorical,
futuristic, a little bit scary, a lot hard
to understand. Mhmm. So hard pass. Right. Yeah.
Is that is that kind of is that kind of how you feel about it?
Oh, definitely. Because I definitely put I don't know if this would
apply to the whole entire Bible, but I've heard before that
you can ask is this prescriptive or descriptive
about different texts in the Bible. And I feel like I get to that. And
it's like, this is just a really crazy story. Right. And I don't know
what category to put any of those in. Right.
And so, yeah, it's definitely just, kinda seems like a
curve ball that you get to at the very end of the bible, and it's
like, well, I read the rest. So this
particular genre in the Bible is referred to as
apocalyptic Mhmm. Literature.
And Revelation is the only book that pretty much in its entirety
is apocalyptic, but there are some sections of Matthew
Okay. Where Jesus talks like this. And there's some
significant portions of the book of Daniel that are like this Okay.
That would be considered they have apocalyptic sections to them, where there's just
a lot of talk about what the end of the world
is going to be like. Okay. So it means literally what I'm thinking. Yeah. Like,
the apocalypse. Yes. End of the world. The world.
Yes. And so apocalyptic literature
It's a hard word to say. Apocalyptic. Apocalyptic. Yeah. You just wanna make
sure, you know especially for a southerner who is not
accustomed to pronouncing all of the consonants
within a word. Right. Yeah. Apocalyptic. Apocalyptic.
Okay. Get rid of the a. It's apocalyptic literature.
Yeah. Exactly. But if you're gonna say it, you gotta make sure you get all
the all the word apocalyptic literature.
Yeah. So it has it has this, you know,
descriptive, prophetic nature about what the end of the world is going to
be like. So Revelation is a lot of it, but it's not the only place.
Again, Matthew and Daniel both have some of that. And so if it was
important enough for Jesus to talk about while he was
here Mhmm. If it was then important enough to
give John this kind of prophetic revelation to where he
saw all this and tried to describe it and you know, as
writing it down a revelation, it seems like it does have it has a bit
of bit of weight to it. Okay. I don't think I've ever heard it described
as prophetic. I kinda put that in the category of the old
testament. But what does the word prophetic mean?
It's announcing something that's coming? Okay.
That makes sense. I just never put that in the New Testament. Right. Well, I
mean so, yes, that's what apocalyptic would be is if we believe
that it is true, it is a prophetic description Mhmm. Of what the end of
the world is going to be like. Okay. And for some and for and for
reasons, you know, obviously, Jesus thought it was important.
God thought it was important to mention some in the old testament.
Jesus was here to do this thing with John,
and I think it is the thing that, and this may be something you don't
connect with, but I think it is a thing that a lot of people feel
a lot of anxiety about. Right. Like, how how how does all
of this end? I mean, the 2 big, you know, you know,
the the 3 big questions I really feel like that people
ask just big picture about life, where did we come
from? Mhmm. What is life supposed to be about? And how does it end?
Yeah. Do you feel like you hear anxiety
because it's confusing or because it sounds scary?
Or both. So let's just imagine a world where
Jesus is around, and their book of Revelation doesn't exist
yet, and Jesus
is talking to he's he's bringing it up willingly.
Right. The people aren't coming up to him being like, so How's the
world gonna end? Tell us about the apocalypse. What's that all about?
Right. That seems kinda big. He is willingly choosing
to bring this up. And so if you think about the crowd
that he's talking to, you're, by and large, you're talking to
a hopeless group of people. Right. Poor,
disenfranchised, no power, no real
hope in this world. And I think there is a
desire on Jesus' part to kind of cast hope
Mhmm. That even though this world may be bad,
and it and it may feel like it's only getting worse. And that's what a
lot of the descriptors of it are, for good or for bad. A lot of
the descriptors are, you may think the world is bad, but you understand
that is that is true. And it's and it's
and it's only gonna get worse. Right. But I
think even in that, there's a bit of hope in
that as you see the world getting worse,
take heart, take a little courage because
God God knew this. This isn't happening outside of God's control.
God's not up in heaven spinning around in a circle believing going
shoot. Oh, man. Someone what happened? What would happen to think this is right? I
mean, this That would be the true scariness, I feel like. Right. And so and
so for Jesus to say, this is coming. We know that
it's coming. God has his hands on it.
You can take some you can take some hope in that. It's still
not like, oh, I mean, I know for sure something bad's gonna
happen. I feel some comfort from that. That sounds weird. But
to know that God is aware and is
kind of guarding and protecting his people in that time, that you can take
some comfort. If I'm if if a bad thing is definitely come
coming, I can take some comfort in knowing that God is in it.
Right. And so I think that is a part of it. And then, also,
as the more you describe that the world is temporary
and is ultimately going to end, the
more hope points towards but there is a
there is another place that God is preparing. Right. But that seems
like the ultimate hope that Right. I don't know that,
atheist or maybe every worldview assumes that the world is
going to end. I don't know if there's a worldview that thinks we're just gonna
continue forever. Yeah. I I But it is a hope that
this is bad, but there is something else. Right. Yeah. So I've I've
I I trust that God is in the in the calamity that is to
come, and I trust that God has a
a a better future for me. Yeah. And so
you put a a small, even if it's a vague road
map together, then I can know what to expect. And then
as those things start to happen, I can be I I can even have more
confidence that that God is in control. Oh,
this is unfolding just the way Jesus said that it would, and I can take
a measure of comfort in that. You know, sometimes when people
experience things and they're like, that's just like what it says in
the Bible, and they start to panic about it. And I'm, like, isn't that the
opposite reaction we're supposed to have? Like, all that terrible thing happened,
it was predicted in Revelation.
God God got proven right again, which is good. Mhmm. And
this is unfolding the way that he said. And so I can actually
trust. I can trust not only in god, but I can also trust in
the road map Because I think the panic that some people
feel as things start to feel more apocalyptic,
the opposite of that is what we're supposed to. Right. God God's God's
got this. He saw this coming. He told me to expect it.
And now that it's happened, I'm like, I don't like it, but I trust
God. And I think there's also a sense too this is
something that Jesus said, hey. There's gonna be people
that are gonna say that they're me come back again.
And there's gonna be people that, hey. The hey. Messiah is over there. The Christ
is over there. It's like, when they say that, don't listen. Right. Paul says the
same sorts of things. He's like, you've heard about antichrist, that antichrist
is coming. Actually, a lot of antichrists are coming. Like, but but, hey. But
this, some of you are afraid that the day of the lord has come and
you missed it. Some of you don't even know what the day of the lord
is, and so Paul's just kinda like, listen. Here's here are kind
of the the things that you can know, and I say this. That's what
Jesus says, what Paul says. I'm saying all this so you don't get deceived.
Right. Because I think one of the things that I feel like a lot of
people who try to play gotcha with Christians will
say, you know, Jesus was a a a poor guy,
lived in the Middle East, and, you know, was rejected by
the power structures of the times. Like, man, if Jesus came back today, Christians
wouldn't even recognize him. And, like, and I okay.
Point taken point taken that a lot of the church is
hostile towards people from that part of the world Mhmm. And can be
and and not be as caring and compassionate towards poor and
people who are experiencing homelessness. We can be like so
I that that point is taken. The point that I do not
take is that Jesus is gonna get born as a baby
again, and we've gotta work really hard to make sure we recognize him.
Right. Plus he made it very clear. Hey. Hey.
I'm going to return in the way that I leave, which was
kind of this big moment, which he was kind of carried into
the into the sky. You won't be able to. And he also said that and
when it happens, it will be a worldwide event. Right.
And so he doesn't want us to get There's not gonna
be like, you missed it. Right. Yeah. Like,
well, some that person says they're Jesus. Are they? If you don't don't
they said there's gonna be a lot of people that are claiming that. It's gonna
be undeniable. You're not gonna be like, okay. Well, that's a lot of angels
in the sky, and that was really loud, and it's kinda scary.
And everybody all over the world is seeing all of this all at once.
Mhmm. Well, and it's also
if we look at the rest of the Bible, God's not typically a God of
confusion. Right. He's I mean, maybe there's
some mystery. I mean, that's in the Yeah. That can be Confusion and
mystery of different things. Yeah. But, yeah, he's not gonna
intentionally try and dupe us. He has yet to take that strategy, so
it'd be crazy if he took that strategy toward the end of the
world. And and and when people were confused
about whether or not he was the Christ, I mean, he sat down with the
scriptures. He's like, hey. You've kinda misunderstood the scriptures. He goes back and and
shows us. And so there are parts of revelation that I believe
that are unclear, that are difficult to understand. But
I think the things that are the most clear are when he comes
back, it's gonna be big. He oh, I gotta say, he is
coming back. Mhmm. When he does, it's gonna be big. And when he
does, that signals the beginning of the end. Yeah. Those are the
things that we're not we're not we're not we're not he's not coming back a
second time. He came once and is like, no. No. No. You don't understand. There's
gonna be 2. Right. He's not gonna come back a second time. He's like, no.
No. No. No. It's actually 3. Wait. No. No. No. No.
It's actually 4. Yeah. He said, when when I come back, it's
it's game over. Yeah. So before
we get too far down this this road, I kinda wanna zoom out
kind of to base factual level. So the book is
written by John. Yes. Who was he writing
to? What was is this something that, like, he
just, like, had a vision? Did he leave it to someone?
What was the intent of the book? Kinda give me that breakdown.
So John, the apostle. Mhmm. Right? Yeah. There were 12
disciples. Jesus called to help him. Simon, Peter, Andrew, James, his brother, John.
You know that do you know that song? I do not. Okay. I am. Probably
should. There's a song I know there's a there's a song where you learn the
books of the Bible and a song where you learn the 12 disciples. I did
learn the books of the Bible. I don't know the old testament one. Apparently, there's
an old testament song. I don't know that one. So as the apostle John,
like, we talked about also the author of the gospel of John, the three letters
of John. Brother was James. He was a
fisherman. The only one of the 12
apostles who died of natural causes.
Interesting. Okay. He, he was like, was it
persecuted or something? Executed. Okay. Yeah.
He was exiled. Okay. He was exiled.
And and while on that island where they exiled
him is when he had this revelation. And if you just,
like, send him to a random, like, empty island?
It it would it yeah. I mean, so it was kinda That sounds
awful. I I I would imagine. I we could look
into this more. I would imagine that this is probably more like what
Australia was for, for the British initially.
Okay. I think it was probably like a prison island. Okay. So I don't imagine
it was probably or something like that. That's what I'm
imagining in my mind. I'm talking about I'm talking about British history
and Australia being a prison colony, and you went Harry Potter. I
feel bad. I should've gone Harry Potter. Met Bellatrix and I
probably should've missed people there. I probably should've gone Harry
Potter too. And so if you
have a Bible that has red letters Mhmm. Right, so you go
to the gospels. Oh, I can know where Jesus is speaking. Then you go to
Revelation. A lot of people are surprised to see There's red letter there. That
a lot of it is red letter. Interesting. And so
it starts the first few chapters start with a
very specific prophetic word that
Jesus has for 7 different churches. Okay.
You know? And so tell tell tell the church in
Philippi this. Mhmm. And tell the
church here this. Tell the church here this. And and
each one of those things has a really interesting construct to it where
it starts with kind of an affirmation. Mhmm. Hey. You're doing really
well here. I'm proud of you, but you need to stop doing
this or be careful about this. And so it
starts it starts in what would probably feels
a lot more like one of the Old Testament prophetic books. Mhmm.
A word from God comes to John, give this word to this
particular group of people is the typical construct of
those most of the books of prophecy in the Old Testament.
And so the first few chapters start that way. Mhmm.
But then it moves from that to a more a a a
different sort of vision that John has.
Okay. And with the purpose of
I I I I I I want you to see this. I want
you to write it down. I want you to to describe it,
and with the idea then that we would have it and would then have
this basic knowledge. Okay. So it's meant to be it's not like
going to the Ninevites and tell these people. It was just Well, the first
the first part the first part of it was Okay. And the second part of
it was until the this thing that you're going to see and
experience, I need I want you to tell everyone that. Okay.
Which is the primary reason why it was included in the
Bible when they were making the decision about what of all of these different
letters and books and gospels and things, how are we gonna put
these in? It seems like it was its main purpose was to
be shared. Uh-huh. The reason why some people were like,
are we sure though? Like This goes about like, for real? Because it's
it's just so vastly different. Right. I mean, you've got
these two main genres in the Old Testament. You know,
gospel acts, if we count that as one thing, it's kind of a telling of
the story of Jesus 4 different ways. And then the follow-up, kind of
the sequel, here's what the apostles did after Jesus was gone.
And then you have all these instructive letters from Romans
all the way to Jude Mhmm. Written by, you know, handful of different
guys, written to a different groups of people. You know? But
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's right. Let's let's make sure we understand the history of
Jesus, what the apostles were about, get some of their their
best, most clear, most important, you know,
instructive books. We're done. And
then We've also got this, though. Right. Right. That's kinda weird.
Yeah. But, like, but not but, like, read it though, like, this
is this is from John, the apostle. He says it is a
word directly from Jesus and a word directly from Jesus that
was meant to be shared. Mhmm. And so even back then, there was
some question about it. Right. Because there's no
other other than the prophets, there's no other in the New
Testament book that says this is directly from
Jesus. Well, yeah. I mean, like like like, word
for word directly from Jesus. Like, Paul was very clear he like, in
his letters that the the
the the substance of what he was teaching was from God.
Right. That it had it had got authority behind it.
Mhmm. But it wasn't the same as a prophetic word of
Right. There's nothing that Paul wrote that was gonna be in red
letters. Right. Unless he was quoting something from a gospel, which we'll get that
at least once. Yeah. So it the
this is different than that. There isn't any other,
like, just pure prophetic books like this
one. Yeah. And I think even then, at the time that
they're putting the the the the New Testament together,
even more so now, there was still a a really kinda
pragmatic let's let's put in things that are gonna
be prescriptive. There you go. Right?
Okay. Things that are things that are that are
that teach easily. Right. And except for those things describing
what those 7 churches should do, a lot of revelation is
not particular it's not easily teachable in the sense of, hey. Here,
we're gonna learn about this this third bowl judgment that is gonna hit during
this particular time of the tribulation. Therefore,
be a better husband. Right. It's it's not like that. It's just kinda
like You're just kind of gathering Oh, okay. A vision for something
that's gonna Right. Happen in the future. So
all of the the whole book is apocalyptic.
Right. Right. And so, it's all future focused,
but then it kind of makes me think of
not teaching or there is teaching in the gospels
and in the letters talking about not being anxious about what's to
come. Like, there's peace in knowing God and you're
good. So how does that kind of
match up? And I know John's intent probably wasn't anxiety,
but we're taught not to have anxiety. And then you're saying the biggest
response to the book is that people are like, oh,
no. Well, the book can't be held responsible for people having bad reactions
to it. Right. Right. Right. Right. You know, if if if Jesus
says this to John and then ultimately to us so that we will
be aware, and as we are aware, we
can trust that God is in control of it, that things are unfolding
the way that oh, in a way that God always knew that they
would. You should take some comfort in that. The fact that some
people look at future bad things coming
and have a a the inverse reaction to that, that's
not that's not that's not the book's fault. Yeah.
So do you think the main intent was to give hope?
Or it was to I think it was and I think it was probably written
to an audience that would be more inclined to draw
comfort from knowing that there was a plan behind Right.
Adversity as opposed to a much softer culture that
we have, which is we believe that we can
insurance policy and plan and build
and we can We can find our way out of it. We can we can
prevent Right. Catastrophes. Right. Right? That
that just extreme weather events that
have happened since the Earth, you know, for 1000 of
years. Right? Mhmm. I mean I mean, just like we we feel
like, well, eventually, we're gonna be able to build houses and buildings
and things that won't be able to be Right.
Affected by weather events. So, like, I mean, like, we're we're just
we we we believe we can control. Mhmm. And
so I think when you read and say the world is gonna spiral
out of people's control but God still has control, I think
there are a lot of people, Christians included, that will not draw
comfort from anything that's main objective is
you're gonna lose control. Right. Mhmm.
But the end, it's almost
like we've gotten into the habit of looking at the disaster
that's coming rather than the end result that's coming after that.
Right. Which is what you would take hope in. Right. Is that because I That
as things get bad, there is gonna be someone who's gonna be able to come
and clean it up Right. And take you to some place even better. Right. Because
then I mean, like, probably any kid would tell you there's
scary things that happen, but it's 10 times scarier when you look at their your
parent, and they're scared too. Right. But that's not the case.
Right. Jesus, he's got this under he's he's got this
he knows this is coming. And in addition to
knowing here hey. Here's how it's gonna play out,
But also and as you see that playing out rather than being scared, it's like,
oh, this is playing out the way that he said. And look, it in
the same book, it says that Jesus is gonna come and
he's gonna win. Right. The ending is not in doubt. And
so the fact that it seems like at during various points in
history, evil seems to be winning. Mhmm.
I don't have to fear that evil is going to ultimately win.
God is ultimately going to win. Mhmm. Don't don't allow
yourself to to be paralyzed by the fact that there will
be times when evil seems to be winning. Right. You're gonna
hear of wars and rumors of wars, and there's gonna be natural
disasters. And there's gonna be famine. And there's gonna be pestilence. And all these
things are going to happen. And and Jesus kinda describes that as kinda
like these are just kind of like like like like predictors.
They're like they're like the growing pains of what is actually going to
come. So don't don't be alarmed by it. Don't freak out about it.
What's coming on the other side of that is even gonna be more so. Don't
even freak out about that because on the on the other end of that is
the triumph of God, of good over evil,
of God over Satan. And so take take
heart, don't be surprised, and don't freak out.
Right. So in the Old Testament, when
there's prophetic about
Jesus coming, anything like that, their response was
almost just I don't know if extreme alertness was it,
but they were looking for the coming king.
And, like, there's I was reading the beginning of Luke, I
think, and there's someone mentioned at the beginning of the book that he was around
the temple for years and he wanted to see the Messiah.
That seems like, they were so excited about the prophetic word
that was coming. Is that a response that we should have? It's it's interesting that
you say that because I think that for the most part, a lot of the
prophetic writing in the Old Testament mostly had an
immediate application to it Sure. Mhmm. Of, like, hey hey. This is
about this thing is about to happen in the next couple of years,
and here's what I need you to do right now. Mhmm.
And it did have some more futuristic
prophecy to it predicting the coming of Jesus.
But I think, again, I think they lived so much in the moment, and I
we can't really judge them as a culture for this. They live so much in
the moment that they
a a lot of them weren't anticipating Mhmm. The coming of
Jesus. And those that were anticipating the
coming of the Christ, of coming of the Messiah, We're looking at
it through a very narrow lens of you're going to
overthrow this bad government right now for me.
Right. And so even still, they there was a very kind of
self focused, now focused view
that allowed them to miss the bigger
picture of what Jesus wanted to accomplish
while he was here. Mhmm. The same way right now, we we
we we can look at all the the things in the book
of Revelation, and we get we get distracted by,
well, that sounds like I'm gonna have to go through something bad. Right.
Right. And we're and we and we just have such we just can't get out
of our own tunnel vision of what is this
gonna mean for me. Mhmm. I don't well, I don't want these bad things to
happen. I don't want these bad things to happen to me. And so you'll
see, and I think we'll talk about this a little bit more as we kinda
get into some of the details of what Revelation says, is that
sometimes we have this response of, like, we feel like it is
our job as Christians to prevent some
of the things in Revelation from happening. It is our
job to protect ourselves and to make sure that something
like make sure, you know, antichrist doesn't get power.
Mhmm. I I mean, good luck. Right.
Right. God says the antichrist is gonna take power. Too. Yeah.
And you sitting around voting for who
you think isn't someone isn't the antichrist or or lamenting
against politicians who have non Christian values
is not gonna prevent something that that God has
said very surely will happen. Mhmm. I mean, there are
some things like the book of Jonah where he says, hey. Here's a prophetic message,
and what what happens depends on
your response to it. Mhmm. So
Jonah's message was, you know, repent or god's gonna
destroy the city. Mhmm. Well, they repented, so god didn't destroy the city. This
isn't repent or Armageddon's gonna happen. Right. It's gonna
hey. Guess what? Armageddon's gonna happen. Mhmm. And we're
again, we're so adverse to that. We spend some time trying to
prevent it rather than really having a
big picture theology of that includes suffering,
that includes a broken world, and can take hope
in even in the midst of suffering
and trials. Mhmm. And so I think for
people who only knew adversity, primary readers of
a lot of these apocalyptic things, who only knew adversity, only
knew persecution, only knew subjugation,
they would have taken it as hopeful. Mhmm. But if you think,
actually, I I really like it here. I kinda like my life. Right. I'm sure
it's bad in places, but I don't live in those places. Yeah. And sometimes
bad things happen here, but I've got plans to kind of overcome most of
that. So do you think we've lost sight of
how awesome eternity with God is gonna be?
I think we I think I think, yeah, I think we we we like what
we have here, and I think there's a deep fear of the unknown. Yeah.
Hey. Guess what, Abigail? For eternity,
you're gonna have to live someplace you've never
seen and do something you don't know what, and you're gonna have to
do it forever. Right. Like, I remember Heidi, my wife,
saying this to the guy who was doing some of our pre marriage counseling. She
was talking about anxiety about becoming a wife. Like, I'm
making a commitment to do something for the rest of my life that I've never
exactly what it is. That I've never done once in my I've never once been
a wife. Mhmm. And now I'm making a commitment that I'm gonna do it for
the rest of my life. I think there's a little bit of that to it.
Mhmm. I think I think there's a sense in which I
know what this is even though it is imperfect,
and I ignore the bad parts. I work really hard to make it only
good, and I convince myself that this is good.
So bad kinda freaks me out, and I'll take
this imperfect thing that I that I
know versus anything that I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. That makes
sense. So oh, I mean,
it makes me think of, I was in a history class in college
and they're talking about manifest destiny and all of the different ideas
of early America is very inspired by scripture,
all these things. And then one student was like, well, looks like
the Christians failed. You don't have, like, a government of
your own and all this stuff. And I was like, that's a really interesting point.
That's not what I ever thought our goal was, but
we could maybe get that kind of confusion of, like, we can do enough
to Well and and we'll talk about this. And this may be a good
stopping point for us then to kinda make the transition. Because there was for a
long period of time, which would have included
the the late 17 100, 18 100, where
a thought about what the book of Revelation meant was
things were going to be bad for a season, but we, in
fact, did have the ability
to Christianize the whole world. And then once we did
that job, Jesus would come back. Right. That all the bad things in
Revelation are gonna happen during this window, but we
can fix it. We are gonna make the world better. We are gonna make the
world completely and totally Christian. And then once we
have, as God's people, have conquered evil here, Jesus comes
back. Mhmm. So we can talk more about that because I think that that
really did kind of inform that. Yeah. And
we can talk about all the reasons why people don't believe that anymore because
the way the world unfolded in the early parts of 20th
century. Right. But that's that's a good stopping point because now now we're about to
get into it. So I think before we start talking about the the details of
that, it'd probably be good for us to do kind of the big picture overview
of kind of the major schools of thought. Yeah. So we'll do that next episode.
But let's answer that question. Okay. And let's, you
know, actually follow-up on our promise that I would get an answer out of you.
Of what? Someone walks up to you, and maybe
they've had experiences of anxiety with the book of Revelation, or
they just don't understand it. Why should I read it?
With all of what we've said in mind, why would you say it's worth their
time to sit down and read it? Well, I mean, I would say, I think
for the most part, I think I think you are. If you've got a limited
amount of time, I mean, I would I would I would encourage you to read
spend more time on the gospel of John and the book of Romans
and second Timothy and Galatians. I mean, there's lots of
books that I feel like are just better
as far as your ability to kind of as far as, like, what
I really want out of my devotional Mhmm. Reading
time with God. But I do think that it's important on some level for
us to have some general understanding of kind of the big picture story
of the Bible from Genesis to Genesis to Revelation. I mean, we don't
spend a whole lot of time talking about the
the the kings of the divided kingdom between
Israel and Judea post Solomon before the exile into
Babylon. And And even me saying that phrase, like, I don't even know what we
need to under we need to understand that. We need to understand
have an overview, big picture idea of the whole thing. And so part
of that is understanding how the story ends.
And at the same time, I think it's important for us to read and understand
that so that we aren't caught off guard, and I think it does
help us shake off an,
imperfect worldview that we have that this
world is great, and our job is to make it great as opposed
to really understanding that we live in a broken
fallen world, and our hope is not in this world but the next. Yeah.
But I would encourage you
to read it in a group, and I would encourage you to read
it with someone who has at least some sort of I
would encourage you to study it with a trusted person Yeah.
Because it is not easily understood. So we'll have a sign up
sheet to read it with Charlie. Stop. Most most people
most pee like, there are lots of parts of the Bible that I would encourage
people to read the parts that are most easily
understood on your own. Sure. But there are parts of the Bible that are significantly
more difficult to understand on your own. Mhmm. And so that's where
we'll spend most of our time on Sundays teaching from the books
that people can uneasily understand on their own because I want people to believe that
the Bible is user friendly, which it is. But there are some parts
of the Bible that are just significantly less user friendly. Right.
So it's important to understand it. It's great. Spend your time
mostly in your devotional reading, reading and studying the parts of the
Bible that you can most easily understand. Mhmm.
Some of these other ones, do it in a group with someone who's gonna help
you not get off the rails. Right. Yeah. That makes
sense. Yeah? Okay. Good answer. I don't want you to feel like I didn't answer
the question. If I feel like it's okay. Okay. And I'm sure we'll round that
out even more For sure. Next episode. For sure. For sure. Hazus, thanks for joining
us. If you have an interest in the book of Revelation, you're probably
just like you just like you it'll drool coming out. I can't I can't wait
for the next episode. We're gonna talk about all the things. I feel like most
of the time, I have a whiteboard. This is gonna be difficult in
podcast format. Stolen. Wow. But even still, like, I mean, well,
most of the people are listening to this rather than be be unfair.
But we will. We'll kind of talk about some of the the different theories about
what revelation is saying and which
ones are more in fashion versus other ones and why and kind of a little
bit of the history of it. And then we'll just, you know, we'll try to
we'll try to do a bit of a deep dive into some of this too.
So Yeah. I I love again, that's why I love the fact we got you
here. We don't really know a whole lot about it. I'd rather be
talking to somebody to fill in the gaps. So we can just kinda fill in
some of the gaps, make sure we fully understand this as best we can. So
thanks for joining us. Encourage you to keep coming back, to the next
episode. We're doing this for a couple more. Thanks for joining us. And as always,
Abigail, thank you. Good to be here.
Thank you for listening to the cultivate podcast. Our hope is that you are taking
steps to go deeper in your faith, that you are asking big questions, and you're
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