1 00:00:05,359 --> 00:00:09,120 The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do 2 00:00:09,120 --> 00:00:12,160 we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:15,805 Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There 4 00:00:15,805 --> 00:00:19,244 are really big, deep questions that we ask each 5 00:00:19,244 --> 00:00:22,225 other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves. 6 00:00:23,244 --> 00:00:27,085 And that's why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in 7 00:00:27,085 --> 00:00:30,710 our understanding of who God is, his word and the way that 8 00:00:30,710 --> 00:00:34,310 he's called us to live. Hey, 9 00:00:34,310 --> 00:00:37,850 everyone. Thank you for joining us, the cultivate podcast. 10 00:00:37,990 --> 00:00:41,670 I am Charlie lead pastor at the Grove Church and we have 11 00:00:41,670 --> 00:00:45,125 with us Abigail Boone. What's 12 00:00:45,125 --> 00:00:48,885 up? Expert producer. Hey. Queen of asking 13 00:00:48,885 --> 00:00:52,105 questions. Indeed. The queen of curiosity 14 00:00:53,445 --> 00:00:57,230 and thoughtfulness and just deep questions. Thank you. So you 15 00:00:57,230 --> 00:01:00,989 always always know that it's gonna be a good episode It's 16 00:01:00,989 --> 00:01:04,349 curiosity. When you're sitting right there. Digs deep. No. No. I mean, I'm not no. 17 00:01:04,349 --> 00:01:07,950 That's no shot at Mark. So I just I just know it's gonna be a 18 00:01:07,950 --> 00:01:11,424 good episode because you're here. How are you doing? I'm I'm great. I'm glad to 19 00:01:11,424 --> 00:01:15,265 be here. Good. Good. So as 20 00:01:15,265 --> 00:01:18,564 you know and you know maybe that we have been 21 00:01:18,784 --> 00:01:22,625 covering a lot of different topics over the course of the last 22 00:01:22,625 --> 00:01:26,290 several weeks and kind of birthed out of a summer 23 00:01:26,430 --> 00:01:29,870 seminar class that we did where we had different speakers come 24 00:01:29,870 --> 00:01:33,230 in. Also known as SummerSlam. Hey, yo. That's 25 00:01:33,230 --> 00:01:36,770 right. That's what I like. You like you prefer SummerSlam? 26 00:01:36,990 --> 00:01:40,765 This sounds like we're doing, like, WrestleMania. If I called it SummerSlam, would 27 00:01:40,765 --> 00:01:44,605 you have made a wrestling logo for it? Absolutely. Yes. 28 00:01:44,605 --> 00:01:47,485 Put that down for next year. Put that in your Monday book or whatever it 29 00:01:47,485 --> 00:01:51,245 is you've done. And so I was 30 00:01:51,245 --> 00:01:53,725 out of town for a couple of them, and I spoke at a couple of 31 00:01:53,725 --> 00:01:57,510 them. You you make the most of them, all of them? Yes. Okay. Other 32 00:01:57,510 --> 00:02:01,030 than the one about how to read the Bible or, like, tips on that, but 33 00:02:01,030 --> 00:02:04,430 all the rest of them, they're awesome. Yeah. It it was a really it was 34 00:02:04,430 --> 00:02:07,990 a really cool really cool deal. And so if I was the 35 00:02:07,990 --> 00:02:11,785 speaker, you've been interviewing me and other speakers, I interviewed 36 00:02:11,785 --> 00:02:15,245 them to kinda just get some of that information out. And so the last 37 00:02:15,305 --> 00:02:19,005 topic that we did was? Revelation. Revelation. 38 00:02:19,145 --> 00:02:22,745 You said it singular. I did. I did that yesterday. What's 39 00:02:22,745 --> 00:02:25,245 that? Wednesday. Wednesday. Wednesday. 40 00:02:26,670 --> 00:02:30,350 Just one revelation. One revel just one long revelation. Right. 41 00:02:30,350 --> 00:02:33,970 Right. Not a series of revelations. Unlike the Psalms 42 00:02:34,350 --> 00:02:37,950 Right. Which are a collection of Psalms. Mhmm. And But each 43 00:02:37,950 --> 00:02:41,755 individual chapter is a Psalm. Is a Psalm. Right. 44 00:02:41,755 --> 00:02:45,595 And these are the acts, plural, of Of the apostles. Of 45 00:02:45,595 --> 00:02:48,575 the apostles. Not the one act. But one revelation 46 00:02:49,355 --> 00:02:52,655 of John. Right. Yes. Okay. John. John. Yep. 47 00:02:52,820 --> 00:02:56,500 Oh, we're already learning something. No. Is it the John? The 48 00:02:56,500 --> 00:03:00,120 John. Well, there's 3 Johns. 1st and second and third John. 49 00:03:00,340 --> 00:03:04,100 Is it that guy? That's three letters, but by the same John. 50 00:03:04,100 --> 00:03:07,915 1st John, 2nd John, 3rd John is not a reference to the 51 00:03:07,915 --> 00:03:11,595 John, but the Oh. The the letter 52 00:03:11,595 --> 00:03:15,355 itself. Okay. The first letter of John, the second letter of John is 53 00:03:15,355 --> 00:03:19,114 3rd John's 3rd letter, 1st John, 3rd John. Okay. But All the same 54 00:03:19,114 --> 00:03:22,790 guy. Can you imagine? But what's your name to the John? I'm 3rd 55 00:03:22,790 --> 00:03:26,569 John. He must say come in late. Just one John, 56 00:03:26,709 --> 00:03:30,230 one John who wrote the gospel of John, one John who wrote those three 57 00:03:30,230 --> 00:03:33,530 letters, and one John that wrote the book of Revelation, 58 00:03:34,465 --> 00:03:37,905 singular. Okay. Same same guy, the apostle alive. 59 00:03:38,305 --> 00:03:42,065 The apostle, also referred to by himself 60 00:03:42,065 --> 00:03:45,745 in the gospel of John as the disciple that Jesus loved. That's 61 00:03:45,905 --> 00:03:49,540 Which that's that's something else. I'm gonna start saying 62 00:03:49,540 --> 00:03:53,060 that I am the staff member that Charlie loves. No. I love 63 00:03:53,060 --> 00:03:56,660 it. I love it. I love it. Test that out at staff meeting, and let 64 00:03:56,660 --> 00:03:58,599 me know how let me know how that goes. Mhmm. 65 00:04:00,260 --> 00:04:04,055 Yeah. So the questions about 66 00:04:04,055 --> 00:04:07,735 the book of Revelation and do you remember specifically what the what 67 00:04:07,735 --> 00:04:11,495 the big picture question was? Why should we 68 00:04:11,495 --> 00:04:15,175 study it? Yeah. Bingo. Something like that. I'm 69 00:04:15,175 --> 00:04:18,979 good. Right? And so I remember the in 70 00:04:18,979 --> 00:04:21,459 the series that we did with Mark that, 71 00:04:23,539 --> 00:04:27,380 his question was, how do I interact with people of other religions? Right. And 72 00:04:27,380 --> 00:04:30,965 then he just didn't answer it. And it took us 4 I feel like it 73 00:04:30,965 --> 00:04:34,764 took us 4 episodes. To kind of kinda get a 74 00:04:34,764 --> 00:04:38,225 tryna get an answer. So are you gonna answer? 75 00:04:39,085 --> 00:04:42,445 Well, you're the asking the questions. I'm trying to transition to you to ask us. 76 00:04:42,445 --> 00:04:45,830 So I'll answer whatever question you I'll answer whatever question you ask. 77 00:04:45,830 --> 00:04:49,430 Okay. And so we'll nail down why should you send this 78 00:04:49,430 --> 00:04:53,270 book. Okay. Alright. And so the thing that 79 00:04:53,270 --> 00:04:56,550 I said then, which I'll say now because it's in the Bible? Yeah. I mean, 80 00:04:56,550 --> 00:04:59,850 at at its simplest, we could have a 5 second answer to that question, 81 00:05:00,194 --> 00:05:03,555 which is I mean, it's it's in there. Right. I mean 82 00:05:03,875 --> 00:05:06,055 Yeah. So there's that. 83 00:05:07,794 --> 00:05:11,634 But I'm guessing that most people mean something different than that. Have 84 00:05:11,634 --> 00:05:15,310 you ever asked that question? Ever read have you ever read or studied 85 00:05:15,310 --> 00:05:19,010 Revelation? I think I started 86 00:05:19,070 --> 00:05:22,910 it once k. And I didn't make it all all the way 87 00:05:22,910 --> 00:05:25,410 through because it kind of reminded me of Hebrews. 88 00:05:26,455 --> 00:05:29,815 Okay. This is just, like, kinda going over my head I'm not I'm not tracking 89 00:05:29,815 --> 00:05:33,575 what you there are way too many metaphors and illustrations here. Yes. Yes. I 90 00:05:33,575 --> 00:05:36,855 don't know who Melchizedek is in Hebrews, and I don't know what this dragon is 91 00:05:36,855 --> 00:05:40,535 about here in Revelation. And I don't know what this is about my personality, but 92 00:05:40,535 --> 00:05:44,370 it was like, you know what? That's happening in the future. May not be there. 93 00:05:45,069 --> 00:05:48,669 Right. And I think that is kind of part of the heart behind the 94 00:05:48,669 --> 00:05:52,289 question. Mhmm. I read this, and I'm just confused. 95 00:05:52,590 --> 00:05:56,414 Mhmm. It doesn't seem to be teaching me anything about the 96 00:05:56,414 --> 00:06:00,175 way that I should live life. And I think for most of us, that 97 00:06:00,175 --> 00:06:03,854 is the practical real reason why we study the 98 00:06:03,854 --> 00:06:07,615 Bible. Mhmm. I like I you know, what kind 99 00:06:07,615 --> 00:06:11,180 of person should I be? Right. What application can I Yeah? Or 100 00:06:11,340 --> 00:06:14,700 work from this. What is this going to tell me about who God is? Like, 101 00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:18,140 so I want it to lead me to some sort of worship or deeper 102 00:06:18,140 --> 00:06:21,955 knowledge of God, or I want it to 103 00:06:21,955 --> 00:06:25,555 help me understand how to be a better person, how to 104 00:06:25,555 --> 00:06:29,175 live more the live the Christian life in a better way. 105 00:06:29,635 --> 00:06:33,095 This doesn't seem to be doing Right. Either of those things. 106 00:06:33,930 --> 00:06:37,130 It's not a it's not a it's not a story where I'm just, oh, it's 107 00:06:37,130 --> 00:06:40,890 a really interesting story. It doesn't feel like that either. 108 00:06:40,890 --> 00:06:43,790 Right. Feels really weird, metaphorical, 109 00:06:44,490 --> 00:06:48,115 futuristic, a little bit scary, a lot hard 110 00:06:48,115 --> 00:06:51,955 to understand. Mhmm. So hard pass. Right. Yeah. 111 00:06:51,955 --> 00:06:54,275 Is that is that kind of is that kind of how you feel about it? 112 00:06:54,275 --> 00:06:58,035 Oh, definitely. Because I definitely put I don't know if this would 113 00:06:58,035 --> 00:07:01,830 apply to the whole entire Bible, but I've heard before that 114 00:07:01,909 --> 00:07:04,650 you can ask is this prescriptive or descriptive 115 00:07:05,590 --> 00:07:09,030 about different texts in the Bible. And I feel like I get to that. And 116 00:07:09,030 --> 00:07:12,550 it's like, this is just a really crazy story. Right. And I don't know 117 00:07:12,550 --> 00:07:16,165 what category to put any of those in. Right. 118 00:07:16,165 --> 00:07:20,005 And so, yeah, it's definitely just, kinda seems like a 119 00:07:20,005 --> 00:07:22,485 curve ball that you get to at the very end of the bible, and it's 120 00:07:22,485 --> 00:07:26,245 like, well, I read the rest. So this 121 00:07:26,245 --> 00:07:29,830 particular genre in the Bible is referred to as 122 00:07:29,830 --> 00:07:32,650 apocalyptic Mhmm. Literature. 123 00:07:33,509 --> 00:07:37,210 And Revelation is the only book that pretty much in its entirety 124 00:07:37,270 --> 00:07:40,949 is apocalyptic, but there are some sections of Matthew 125 00:07:41,349 --> 00:07:44,935 Okay. Where Jesus talks like this. And there's some 126 00:07:44,935 --> 00:07:48,375 significant portions of the book of Daniel that are like this Okay. 127 00:07:48,615 --> 00:07:52,455 That would be considered they have apocalyptic sections to them, where there's just 128 00:07:52,455 --> 00:07:56,075 a lot of talk about what the end of the world 129 00:07:56,135 --> 00:07:59,710 is going to be like. Okay. So it means literally what I'm thinking. Yeah. Like, 130 00:07:59,710 --> 00:08:03,150 the apocalypse. Yes. End of the world. The world. 131 00:08:03,150 --> 00:08:06,910 Yes. And so apocalyptic literature 132 00:08:07,230 --> 00:08:10,750 It's a hard word to say. Apocalyptic. Apocalyptic. Yeah. You just wanna make 133 00:08:10,750 --> 00:08:14,285 sure, you know especially for a southerner who is not 134 00:08:14,285 --> 00:08:17,745 accustomed to pronouncing all of the consonants 135 00:08:17,885 --> 00:08:21,185 within a word. Right. Yeah. Apocalyptic. Apocalyptic. 136 00:08:21,405 --> 00:08:25,250 Okay. Get rid of the a. It's apocalyptic literature. 137 00:08:25,950 --> 00:08:29,550 Yeah. Exactly. But if you're gonna say it, you gotta make sure you get all 138 00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:32,450 the all the word apocalyptic literature. 139 00:08:35,390 --> 00:08:38,365 Yeah. So it has it has this, you know, 140 00:08:38,905 --> 00:08:42,585 descriptive, prophetic nature about what the end of the world is going to 141 00:08:42,585 --> 00:08:45,385 be like. So Revelation is a lot of it, but it's not the only place. 142 00:08:45,385 --> 00:08:48,905 Again, Matthew and Daniel both have some of that. And so if it was 143 00:08:48,905 --> 00:08:52,730 important enough for Jesus to talk about while he was 144 00:08:52,730 --> 00:08:56,110 here Mhmm. If it was then important enough to 145 00:08:57,210 --> 00:09:00,810 give John this kind of prophetic revelation to where he 146 00:09:00,810 --> 00:09:04,570 saw all this and tried to describe it and you know, as 147 00:09:04,570 --> 00:09:08,225 writing it down a revelation, it seems like it does have it has a bit 148 00:09:08,225 --> 00:09:11,985 of bit of weight to it. Okay. I don't think I've ever heard it described 149 00:09:11,985 --> 00:09:15,665 as prophetic. I kinda put that in the category of the old 150 00:09:15,665 --> 00:09:18,644 testament. But what does the word prophetic mean? 151 00:09:19,584 --> 00:09:22,565 It's announcing something that's coming? Okay. 152 00:09:23,670 --> 00:09:26,950 That makes sense. I just never put that in the New Testament. Right. Well, I 153 00:09:26,950 --> 00:09:30,790 mean so, yes, that's what apocalyptic would be is if we believe 154 00:09:30,790 --> 00:09:34,630 that it is true, it is a prophetic description Mhmm. Of what the end of 155 00:09:34,630 --> 00:09:37,990 the world is going to be like. Okay. And for some and for and for 156 00:09:37,990 --> 00:09:40,945 reasons, you know, obviously, Jesus thought it was important. 157 00:09:42,045 --> 00:09:45,345 God thought it was important to mention some in the old testament. 158 00:09:45,565 --> 00:09:48,065 Jesus was here to do this thing with John, 159 00:09:49,245 --> 00:09:52,920 and I think it is the thing that, and this may be something you don't 160 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,079 connect with, but I think it is a thing that a lot of people feel 161 00:09:55,079 --> 00:09:58,920 a lot of anxiety about. Right. Like, how how how does all 162 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,360 of this end? I mean, the 2 big, you know, you know, 163 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,145 the the 3 big questions I really feel like that people 164 00:10:06,145 --> 00:10:09,505 ask just big picture about life, where did we come 165 00:10:09,505 --> 00:10:13,105 from? Mhmm. What is life supposed to be about? And how does it end? 166 00:10:13,105 --> 00:10:16,005 Yeah. Do you feel like you hear anxiety 167 00:10:16,625 --> 00:10:20,165 because it's confusing or because it sounds scary? 168 00:10:21,350 --> 00:10:25,050 Or both. So let's just imagine a world where 169 00:10:25,510 --> 00:10:28,870 Jesus is around, and their book of Revelation doesn't exist 170 00:10:28,870 --> 00:10:32,310 yet, and Jesus 171 00:10:32,310 --> 00:10:35,690 is talking to he's he's bringing it up willingly. 172 00:10:35,910 --> 00:10:39,535 Right. The people aren't coming up to him being like, so How's the 173 00:10:39,535 --> 00:10:43,214 world gonna end? Tell us about the apocalypse. What's that all about? 174 00:10:43,214 --> 00:10:47,055 Right. That seems kinda big. He is willingly choosing 175 00:10:47,055 --> 00:10:50,895 to bring this up. And so if you think about the crowd 176 00:10:50,895 --> 00:10:54,620 that he's talking to, you're, by and large, you're talking to 177 00:10:54,620 --> 00:10:57,440 a hopeless group of people. Right. Poor, 178 00:10:58,300 --> 00:11:01,980 disenfranchised, no power, no real 179 00:11:01,980 --> 00:11:05,740 hope in this world. And I think there is a 180 00:11:05,740 --> 00:11:09,505 desire on Jesus' part to kind of cast hope 181 00:11:09,905 --> 00:11:13,525 Mhmm. That even though this world may be bad, 182 00:11:14,545 --> 00:11:17,745 and it and it may feel like it's only getting worse. And that's what a 183 00:11:17,745 --> 00:11:20,980 lot of the descriptors of it are, for good or for bad. A lot of 184 00:11:20,980 --> 00:11:24,280 the descriptors are, you may think the world is bad, but you understand 185 00:11:24,740 --> 00:11:28,500 that is that is true. And it's and it's 186 00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:32,180 and it's only gonna get worse. Right. But I 187 00:11:32,180 --> 00:11:35,620 think even in that, there's a bit of hope in 188 00:11:35,620 --> 00:11:38,615 that as you see the world getting worse, 189 00:11:40,435 --> 00:11:43,015 take heart, take a little courage because 190 00:11:44,355 --> 00:11:48,115 God God knew this. This isn't happening outside of God's control. 191 00:11:48,115 --> 00:11:51,555 God's not up in heaven spinning around in a circle believing going 192 00:11:51,870 --> 00:11:55,630 shoot. Oh, man. Someone what happened? What would happen to think this is right? I 193 00:11:55,630 --> 00:11:59,230 mean, this That would be the true scariness, I feel like. Right. And so and 194 00:11:59,230 --> 00:12:02,990 so for Jesus to say, this is coming. We know that 195 00:12:02,990 --> 00:12:06,290 it's coming. God has his hands on it. 196 00:12:07,445 --> 00:12:11,125 You can take some you can take some hope in that. It's still 197 00:12:11,125 --> 00:12:14,885 not like, oh, I mean, I know for sure something bad's gonna 198 00:12:14,885 --> 00:12:18,645 happen. I feel some comfort from that. That sounds weird. But 199 00:12:18,645 --> 00:12:22,370 to know that God is aware and is 200 00:12:22,370 --> 00:12:26,050 kind of guarding and protecting his people in that time, that you can take 201 00:12:26,050 --> 00:12:29,490 some comfort. If I'm if if a bad thing is definitely come 202 00:12:29,810 --> 00:12:33,570 coming, I can take some comfort in knowing that God is in it. 203 00:12:33,570 --> 00:12:37,335 Right. And so I think that is a part of it. And then, also, 204 00:12:38,435 --> 00:12:41,495 as the more you describe that the world is temporary 205 00:12:42,275 --> 00:12:45,715 and is ultimately going to end, the 206 00:12:45,715 --> 00:12:49,360 more hope points towards but there is a 207 00:12:49,980 --> 00:12:53,740 there is another place that God is preparing. Right. But that seems 208 00:12:53,740 --> 00:12:57,420 like the ultimate hope that Right. I don't know that, 209 00:12:58,540 --> 00:13:02,365 atheist or maybe every worldview assumes that the world is 210 00:13:02,365 --> 00:13:06,045 going to end. I don't know if there's a worldview that thinks we're just gonna 211 00:13:06,045 --> 00:13:09,745 continue forever. Yeah. I I But it is a hope that 212 00:13:10,365 --> 00:13:14,200 this is bad, but there is something else. Right. Yeah. So I've I've 213 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,800 I I trust that God is in the in the calamity that is to 214 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,100 come, and I trust that God has a 215 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:26,140 a a better future for me. Yeah. And so 216 00:13:26,255 --> 00:13:29,774 you put a a small, even if it's a vague road 217 00:13:29,774 --> 00:13:33,615 map together, then I can know what to expect. And then 218 00:13:33,615 --> 00:13:36,975 as those things start to happen, I can be I I can even have more 219 00:13:36,975 --> 00:13:40,699 confidence that that God is in control. Oh, 220 00:13:40,699 --> 00:13:44,379 this is unfolding just the way Jesus said that it would, and I can take 221 00:13:44,379 --> 00:13:47,519 a measure of comfort in that. You know, sometimes when people 222 00:13:47,980 --> 00:13:51,755 experience things and they're like, that's just like what it says in 223 00:13:51,755 --> 00:13:55,035 the Bible, and they start to panic about it. And I'm, like, isn't that the 224 00:13:55,035 --> 00:13:58,495 opposite reaction we're supposed to have? Like, all that terrible thing happened, 225 00:13:59,595 --> 00:14:01,295 it was predicted in Revelation. 226 00:14:04,350 --> 00:14:08,110 God God got proven right again, which is good. Mhmm. And 227 00:14:08,110 --> 00:14:11,550 this is unfolding the way that he said. And so I can actually 228 00:14:11,550 --> 00:14:15,390 trust. I can trust not only in god, but I can also trust in 229 00:14:15,390 --> 00:14:18,845 the road map Because I think the panic that some people 230 00:14:18,845 --> 00:14:22,225 feel as things start to feel more apocalyptic, 231 00:14:25,644 --> 00:14:29,404 the opposite of that is what we're supposed to. Right. God God's God's 232 00:14:29,404 --> 00:14:33,250 got this. He saw this coming. He told me to expect it. 233 00:14:33,550 --> 00:14:37,230 And now that it's happened, I'm like, I don't like it, but I trust 234 00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:41,069 God. And I think there's also a sense too this is 235 00:14:41,069 --> 00:14:43,889 something that Jesus said, hey. There's gonna be people 236 00:14:44,829 --> 00:14:47,329 that are gonna say that they're me come back again. 237 00:14:48,645 --> 00:14:51,925 And there's gonna be people that, hey. The hey. Messiah is over there. The Christ 238 00:14:51,925 --> 00:14:55,605 is over there. It's like, when they say that, don't listen. Right. Paul says the 239 00:14:55,605 --> 00:14:59,365 same sorts of things. He's like, you've heard about antichrist, that antichrist 240 00:14:59,365 --> 00:15:02,885 is coming. Actually, a lot of antichrists are coming. Like, but but, hey. But 241 00:15:02,885 --> 00:15:05,970 this, some of you are afraid that the day of the lord has come and 242 00:15:05,970 --> 00:15:08,610 you missed it. Some of you don't even know what the day of the lord 243 00:15:08,610 --> 00:15:12,370 is, and so Paul's just kinda like, listen. Here's here are kind 244 00:15:12,370 --> 00:15:16,130 of the the things that you can know, and I say this. That's what 245 00:15:16,130 --> 00:15:19,735 Jesus says, what Paul says. I'm saying all this so you don't get deceived. 246 00:15:19,955 --> 00:15:22,675 Right. Because I think one of the things that I feel like a lot of 247 00:15:22,675 --> 00:15:26,115 people who try to play gotcha with Christians will 248 00:15:26,115 --> 00:15:29,715 say, you know, Jesus was a a a poor guy, 249 00:15:29,715 --> 00:15:33,400 lived in the Middle East, and, you know, was rejected by 250 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,240 the power structures of the times. Like, man, if Jesus came back today, Christians 251 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,000 wouldn't even recognize him. And, like, and I okay. 252 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,380 Point taken point taken that a lot of the church is 253 00:15:45,045 --> 00:15:48,825 hostile towards people from that part of the world Mhmm. And can be 254 00:15:49,445 --> 00:15:53,205 and and not be as caring and compassionate towards poor and 255 00:15:53,205 --> 00:15:56,885 people who are experiencing homelessness. We can be like so 256 00:15:56,885 --> 00:16:00,690 I that that point is taken. The point that I do not 257 00:16:00,690 --> 00:16:04,370 take is that Jesus is gonna get born as a baby 258 00:16:04,370 --> 00:16:08,209 again, and we've gotta work really hard to make sure we recognize him. 259 00:16:08,209 --> 00:16:11,990 Right. Plus he made it very clear. Hey. Hey. 260 00:16:12,370 --> 00:16:16,175 I'm going to return in the way that I leave, which was 261 00:16:16,875 --> 00:16:20,635 kind of this big moment, which he was kind of carried into 262 00:16:20,635 --> 00:16:23,835 the into the sky. You won't be able to. And he also said that and 263 00:16:23,835 --> 00:16:26,815 when it happens, it will be a worldwide event. Right. 264 00:16:28,260 --> 00:16:31,860 And so he doesn't want us to get There's not gonna 265 00:16:31,860 --> 00:16:35,700 be like, you missed it. Right. Yeah. Like, 266 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:39,380 well, some that person says they're Jesus. Are they? If you don't don't 267 00:16:39,540 --> 00:16:42,764 they said there's gonna be a lot of people that are claiming that. It's gonna 268 00:16:42,764 --> 00:16:46,524 be undeniable. You're not gonna be like, okay. Well, that's a lot of angels 269 00:16:46,524 --> 00:16:49,824 in the sky, and that was really loud, and it's kinda scary. 270 00:16:50,685 --> 00:16:54,204 And everybody all over the world is seeing all of this all at once. 271 00:16:54,204 --> 00:16:56,860 Mhmm. Well, and it's also 272 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,720 if we look at the rest of the Bible, God's not typically a God of 273 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,400 confusion. Right. He's I mean, maybe there's 274 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:09,174 some mystery. I mean, that's in the Yeah. That can be Confusion and 275 00:17:09,174 --> 00:17:12,154 mystery of different things. Yeah. But, yeah, he's not gonna 276 00:17:12,615 --> 00:17:16,454 intentionally try and dupe us. He has yet to take that strategy, so 277 00:17:16,454 --> 00:17:19,974 it'd be crazy if he took that strategy toward the end of the 278 00:17:19,974 --> 00:17:23,700 world. And and and when people were confused 279 00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:27,220 about whether or not he was the Christ, I mean, he sat down with the 280 00:17:27,220 --> 00:17:31,059 scriptures. He's like, hey. You've kinda misunderstood the scriptures. He goes back and and 281 00:17:31,059 --> 00:17:34,674 shows us. And so there are parts of revelation that I believe 282 00:17:34,674 --> 00:17:38,515 that are unclear, that are difficult to understand. But 283 00:17:38,515 --> 00:17:42,355 I think the things that are the most clear are when he comes 284 00:17:42,355 --> 00:17:45,955 back, it's gonna be big. He oh, I gotta say, he is 285 00:17:45,955 --> 00:17:49,790 coming back. Mhmm. When he does, it's gonna be big. And when he 286 00:17:49,790 --> 00:17:53,310 does, that signals the beginning of the end. Yeah. Those are the 287 00:17:53,310 --> 00:17:56,110 things that we're not we're not we're not we're not he's not coming back a 288 00:17:56,110 --> 00:17:59,470 second time. He came once and is like, no. No. No. You don't understand. There's 289 00:17:59,470 --> 00:18:02,590 gonna be 2. Right. He's not gonna come back a second time. He's like, no. 290 00:18:02,590 --> 00:18:06,195 No. No. No. It's actually 3. Wait. No. No. No. No. 291 00:18:06,335 --> 00:18:09,875 It's actually 4. Yeah. He said, when when I come back, it's 292 00:18:10,415 --> 00:18:14,255 it's game over. Yeah. So before 293 00:18:14,255 --> 00:18:17,875 we get too far down this this road, I kinda wanna zoom out 294 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,000 kind of to base factual level. So the book is 295 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,520 written by John. Yes. Who was he writing 296 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,200 to? What was is this something that, like, he 297 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,995 just, like, had a vision? Did he leave it to someone? 298 00:18:33,695 --> 00:18:36,835 What was the intent of the book? Kinda give me that breakdown. 299 00:18:37,935 --> 00:18:41,695 So John, the apostle. Mhmm. Right? Yeah. There were 12 300 00:18:41,695 --> 00:18:45,540 disciples. Jesus called to help him. Simon, Peter, Andrew, James, his brother, John. 301 00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:48,420 You know that do you know that song? I do not. Okay. I am. Probably 302 00:18:48,420 --> 00:18:51,540 should. There's a song I know there's a there's a song where you learn the 303 00:18:51,540 --> 00:18:54,180 books of the Bible and a song where you learn the 12 disciples. I did 304 00:18:54,180 --> 00:18:57,220 learn the books of the Bible. I don't know the old testament one. Apparently, there's 305 00:18:57,220 --> 00:19:01,065 an old testament song. I don't know that one. So as the apostle John, 306 00:19:01,065 --> 00:19:04,505 like, we talked about also the author of the gospel of John, the three letters 307 00:19:04,505 --> 00:19:08,185 of John. Brother was James. He was a 308 00:19:08,185 --> 00:19:11,625 fisherman. The only one of the 12 309 00:19:11,625 --> 00:19:13,885 apostles who died of natural causes. 310 00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:18,790 Interesting. Okay. He, he was like, was it 311 00:19:18,790 --> 00:19:21,770 persecuted or something? Executed. Okay. Yeah. 312 00:19:23,030 --> 00:19:26,170 He was exiled. Okay. He was exiled. 313 00:19:26,390 --> 00:19:30,005 And and while on that island where they exiled 314 00:19:30,005 --> 00:19:33,765 him is when he had this revelation. And if you just, 315 00:19:33,765 --> 00:19:37,465 like, send him to a random, like, empty island? 316 00:19:39,450 --> 00:19:43,289 It it would it yeah. I mean, so it was kinda That sounds 317 00:19:43,289 --> 00:19:46,970 awful. I I I would imagine. I we could look 318 00:19:46,970 --> 00:19:50,809 into this more. I would imagine that this is probably more like what 319 00:19:50,809 --> 00:19:54,485 Australia was for, for the British initially. 320 00:19:54,705 --> 00:19:57,878 Okay. I think it was probably like a prison island. Okay. So I don't imagine 321 00:19:57,878 --> 00:20:01,585 it was probably or something like that. That's what I'm 322 00:20:01,585 --> 00:20:05,105 imagining in my mind. I'm talking about I'm talking about British history 323 00:20:05,105 --> 00:20:08,860 and Australia being a prison colony, and you went Harry Potter. I 324 00:20:08,860 --> 00:20:12,299 feel bad. I should've gone Harry Potter. Met Bellatrix and I 325 00:20:12,299 --> 00:20:15,899 probably should've missed people there. I probably should've gone Harry 326 00:20:15,899 --> 00:20:19,635 Potter too. And so if you 327 00:20:19,635 --> 00:20:23,475 have a Bible that has red letters Mhmm. Right, so you go 328 00:20:23,475 --> 00:20:26,035 to the gospels. Oh, I can know where Jesus is speaking. Then you go to 329 00:20:26,035 --> 00:20:29,875 Revelation. A lot of people are surprised to see There's red letter there. That 330 00:20:29,875 --> 00:20:33,450 a lot of it is red letter. Interesting. And so 331 00:20:33,450 --> 00:20:37,210 it starts the first few chapters start with a 332 00:20:37,210 --> 00:20:40,730 very specific prophetic word that 333 00:20:40,730 --> 00:20:44,429 Jesus has for 7 different churches. Okay. 334 00:20:45,065 --> 00:20:48,905 You know? And so tell tell tell the church in 335 00:20:48,905 --> 00:20:52,425 Philippi this. Mhmm. And tell the 336 00:20:52,425 --> 00:20:56,265 church here this. Tell the church here this. And and 337 00:20:56,265 --> 00:20:59,725 each one of those things has a really interesting construct to it where 338 00:20:59,990 --> 00:21:03,670 it starts with kind of an affirmation. Mhmm. Hey. You're doing really 339 00:21:03,670 --> 00:21:07,350 well here. I'm proud of you, but you need to stop doing 340 00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:10,950 this or be careful about this. And so it 341 00:21:10,950 --> 00:21:14,755 starts it starts in what would probably feels 342 00:21:14,755 --> 00:21:18,515 a lot more like one of the Old Testament prophetic books. Mhmm. 343 00:21:18,515 --> 00:21:22,035 A word from God comes to John, give this word to this 344 00:21:22,035 --> 00:21:25,475 particular group of people is the typical construct of 345 00:21:25,475 --> 00:21:29,299 those most of the books of prophecy in the Old Testament. 346 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,299 And so the first few chapters start that way. Mhmm. 347 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,120 But then it moves from that to a more a a a 348 00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:40,420 different sort of vision that John has. 349 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,605 Okay. And with the purpose of 350 00:21:45,345 --> 00:21:49,185 I I I I I I want you to see this. I want 351 00:21:49,185 --> 00:21:52,245 you to write it down. I want you to to describe it, 352 00:21:52,705 --> 00:21:56,410 and with the idea then that we would have it and would then have 353 00:21:56,410 --> 00:21:59,950 this basic knowledge. Okay. So it's meant to be it's not like 354 00:22:00,250 --> 00:22:04,030 going to the Ninevites and tell these people. It was just Well, the first 355 00:22:04,170 --> 00:22:07,210 the first part the first part of it was Okay. And the second part of 356 00:22:07,210 --> 00:22:10,825 it was until the this thing that you're going to see and 357 00:22:10,825 --> 00:22:14,045 experience, I need I want you to tell everyone that. Okay. 358 00:22:14,665 --> 00:22:18,425 Which is the primary reason why it was included in the 359 00:22:18,425 --> 00:22:22,059 Bible when they were making the decision about what of all of these different 360 00:22:22,059 --> 00:22:25,899 letters and books and gospels and things, how are we gonna put 361 00:22:25,899 --> 00:22:29,740 these in? It seems like it was its main purpose was to 362 00:22:29,740 --> 00:22:33,519 be shared. Uh-huh. The reason why some people were like, 363 00:22:35,535 --> 00:22:39,235 are we sure though? Like This goes about like, for real? Because it's 364 00:22:39,615 --> 00:22:43,375 it's just so vastly different. Right. I mean, you've got 365 00:22:43,375 --> 00:22:47,055 these two main genres in the Old Testament. You know, 366 00:22:47,055 --> 00:22:49,960 gospel acts, if we count that as one thing, it's kind of a telling of 367 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,640 the story of Jesus 4 different ways. And then the follow-up, kind of 368 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,340 the sequel, here's what the apostles did after Jesus was gone. 369 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,245 And then you have all these instructive letters from Romans 370 00:23:01,245 --> 00:23:04,685 all the way to Jude Mhmm. Written by, you know, handful of different 371 00:23:04,685 --> 00:23:08,525 guys, written to a different groups of people. You know? But 372 00:23:08,605 --> 00:23:12,285 yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's right. Let's let's make sure we understand the history of 373 00:23:12,285 --> 00:23:16,020 Jesus, what the apostles were about, get some of their their 374 00:23:16,020 --> 00:23:19,780 best, most clear, most important, you know, 375 00:23:19,780 --> 00:23:23,540 instructive books. We're done. And 376 00:23:23,540 --> 00:23:27,240 then We've also got this, though. Right. Right. That's kinda weird. 377 00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:31,125 Yeah. But, like, but not but, like, read it though, like, this 378 00:23:31,125 --> 00:23:34,965 is this is from John, the apostle. He says it is a 379 00:23:34,965 --> 00:23:38,805 word directly from Jesus and a word directly from Jesus that 380 00:23:38,805 --> 00:23:42,245 was meant to be shared. Mhmm. And so even back then, there was 381 00:23:42,245 --> 00:23:45,710 some question about it. Right. Because there's no 382 00:23:45,710 --> 00:23:49,310 other other than the prophets, there's no other in the New 383 00:23:49,310 --> 00:23:52,850 Testament book that says this is directly from 384 00:23:53,470 --> 00:23:57,294 Jesus. Well, yeah. I mean, like like like, word 385 00:23:57,294 --> 00:24:01,054 for word directly from Jesus. Like, Paul was very clear he like, in 386 00:24:01,054 --> 00:24:03,955 his letters that the the 387 00:24:06,095 --> 00:24:09,909 the the substance of what he was teaching was from God. 388 00:24:09,909 --> 00:24:13,350 Right. That it had it had got authority behind it. 389 00:24:13,350 --> 00:24:16,549 Mhmm. But it wasn't the same as a prophetic word of 390 00:24:16,870 --> 00:24:20,549 Right. There's nothing that Paul wrote that was gonna be in red 391 00:24:20,549 --> 00:24:24,365 letters. Right. Unless he was quoting something from a gospel, which we'll get that 392 00:24:24,365 --> 00:24:27,965 at least once. Yeah. So it the 393 00:24:28,125 --> 00:24:31,425 this is different than that. There isn't any other, 394 00:24:31,805 --> 00:24:35,325 like, just pure prophetic books like this 395 00:24:35,325 --> 00:24:39,039 one. Yeah. And I think even then, at the time that 396 00:24:39,039 --> 00:24:42,500 they're putting the the the the New Testament together, 397 00:24:43,360 --> 00:24:47,120 even more so now, there was still a a really kinda 398 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:50,640 pragmatic let's let's put in things that are gonna 399 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,445 be prescriptive. There you go. Right? 400 00:24:54,445 --> 00:24:57,905 Okay. Things that are things that are that are 401 00:24:58,365 --> 00:25:02,125 that teach easily. Right. And except for those things describing 402 00:25:02,125 --> 00:25:05,810 what those 7 churches should do, a lot of revelation is 403 00:25:05,810 --> 00:25:09,650 not particular it's not easily teachable in the sense of, hey. Here, 404 00:25:09,650 --> 00:25:13,410 we're gonna learn about this this third bowl judgment that is gonna hit during 405 00:25:13,410 --> 00:25:16,870 this particular time of the tribulation. Therefore, 406 00:25:17,170 --> 00:25:20,865 be a better husband. Right. It's it's not like that. It's just kinda 407 00:25:21,405 --> 00:25:25,165 like You're just kind of gathering Oh, okay. A vision for something 408 00:25:25,165 --> 00:25:27,905 that's gonna Right. Happen in the future. So 409 00:25:29,565 --> 00:25:32,385 all of the the whole book is apocalyptic. 410 00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:37,040 Right. Right. And so, it's all future focused, 411 00:25:37,420 --> 00:25:39,440 but then it kind of makes me think of 412 00:25:41,180 --> 00:25:44,880 not teaching or there is teaching in the gospels 413 00:25:45,180 --> 00:25:48,805 and in the letters talking about not being anxious about what's to 414 00:25:48,805 --> 00:25:52,485 come. Like, there's peace in knowing God and you're 415 00:25:52,485 --> 00:25:56,245 good. So how does that kind of 416 00:25:56,245 --> 00:25:59,785 match up? And I know John's intent probably wasn't anxiety, 417 00:25:59,925 --> 00:26:03,540 but we're taught not to have anxiety. And then you're saying the biggest 418 00:26:03,540 --> 00:26:07,140 response to the book is that people are like, oh, 419 00:26:07,140 --> 00:26:10,900 no. Well, the book can't be held responsible for people having bad reactions 420 00:26:10,900 --> 00:26:14,575 to it. Right. Right. Right. Right. You know, if if if Jesus 421 00:26:14,575 --> 00:26:18,335 says this to John and then ultimately to us so that we will 422 00:26:18,335 --> 00:26:22,174 be aware, and as we are aware, we 423 00:26:22,174 --> 00:26:25,875 can trust that God is in control of it, that things are unfolding 424 00:26:25,934 --> 00:26:29,670 the way that oh, in a way that God always knew that they 425 00:26:29,670 --> 00:26:33,510 would. You should take some comfort in that. The fact that some 426 00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:37,130 people look at future bad things coming 427 00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:40,870 and have a a the inverse reaction to that, that's 428 00:26:40,870 --> 00:26:44,435 not that's not that's not the book's fault. Yeah. 429 00:26:44,495 --> 00:26:48,175 So do you think the main intent was to give hope? 430 00:26:48,175 --> 00:26:51,135 Or it was to I think it was and I think it was probably written 431 00:26:51,135 --> 00:26:54,670 to an audience that would be more inclined to draw 432 00:26:54,670 --> 00:26:58,110 comfort from knowing that there was a plan behind Right. 433 00:26:58,270 --> 00:27:02,110 Adversity as opposed to a much softer culture that 434 00:27:02,110 --> 00:27:05,570 we have, which is we believe that we can 435 00:27:06,445 --> 00:27:09,745 insurance policy and plan and build 436 00:27:09,965 --> 00:27:13,485 and we can We can find our way out of it. We can we can 437 00:27:13,485 --> 00:27:17,085 prevent Right. Catastrophes. Right. Right? That 438 00:27:17,085 --> 00:27:20,790 that just extreme weather events that 439 00:27:20,790 --> 00:27:24,550 have happened since the Earth, you know, for 1000 of 440 00:27:24,550 --> 00:27:28,310 years. Right? Mhmm. I mean I mean, just like we we feel 441 00:27:28,310 --> 00:27:32,070 like, well, eventually, we're gonna be able to build houses and buildings 442 00:27:32,070 --> 00:27:35,135 and things that won't be able to be Right. 443 00:27:35,755 --> 00:27:39,355 Affected by weather events. So, like, I mean, like, we're we're just 444 00:27:39,515 --> 00:27:43,275 we we we believe we can control. Mhmm. And 445 00:27:43,275 --> 00:27:46,975 so I think when you read and say the world is gonna spiral 446 00:27:47,035 --> 00:27:50,780 out of people's control but God still has control, I think 447 00:27:50,780 --> 00:27:54,460 there are a lot of people, Christians included, that will not draw 448 00:27:54,460 --> 00:27:57,919 comfort from anything that's main objective is 449 00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:03,039 you're gonna lose control. Right. Mhmm. 450 00:28:03,820 --> 00:28:07,195 But the end, it's almost 451 00:28:07,195 --> 00:28:10,895 like we've gotten into the habit of looking at the disaster 452 00:28:10,955 --> 00:28:14,655 that's coming rather than the end result that's coming after that. 453 00:28:14,715 --> 00:28:18,510 Right. Which is what you would take hope in. Right. Is that because I That 454 00:28:18,670 --> 00:28:21,710 as things get bad, there is gonna be someone who's gonna be able to come 455 00:28:21,710 --> 00:28:25,550 and clean it up Right. And take you to some place even better. Right. Because 456 00:28:25,550 --> 00:28:29,310 then I mean, like, probably any kid would tell you there's 457 00:28:29,310 --> 00:28:32,855 scary things that happen, but it's 10 times scarier when you look at their your 458 00:28:32,855 --> 00:28:36,554 parent, and they're scared too. Right. But that's not the case. 459 00:28:36,615 --> 00:28:40,215 Right. Jesus, he's got this under he's he's got this 460 00:28:40,375 --> 00:28:43,755 he knows this is coming. And in addition to 461 00:28:43,815 --> 00:28:46,794 knowing here hey. Here's how it's gonna play out, 462 00:28:47,870 --> 00:28:51,549 But also and as you see that playing out rather than being scared, it's like, 463 00:28:51,549 --> 00:28:55,390 oh, this is playing out the way that he said. And look, it in 464 00:28:55,390 --> 00:28:58,610 the same book, it says that Jesus is gonna come and 465 00:28:59,495 --> 00:29:03,255 he's gonna win. Right. The ending is not in doubt. And 466 00:29:03,255 --> 00:29:07,015 so the fact that it seems like at during various points in 467 00:29:07,015 --> 00:29:10,715 history, evil seems to be winning. Mhmm. 468 00:29:11,335 --> 00:29:14,715 I don't have to fear that evil is going to ultimately win. 469 00:29:14,980 --> 00:29:18,820 God is ultimately going to win. Mhmm. Don't don't allow 470 00:29:18,820 --> 00:29:22,580 yourself to to be paralyzed by the fact that there will 471 00:29:22,580 --> 00:29:26,340 be times when evil seems to be winning. Right. You're gonna 472 00:29:26,340 --> 00:29:29,795 hear of wars and rumors of wars, and there's gonna be natural 473 00:29:29,795 --> 00:29:33,395 disasters. And there's gonna be famine. And there's gonna be pestilence. And all these 474 00:29:33,395 --> 00:29:37,235 things are going to happen. And and Jesus kinda describes that as kinda 475 00:29:37,235 --> 00:29:40,855 like these are just kind of like like like like predictors. 476 00:29:41,310 --> 00:29:44,910 They're like they're like the growing pains of what is actually going to 477 00:29:44,910 --> 00:29:48,690 come. So don't don't be alarmed by it. Don't freak out about it. 478 00:29:49,150 --> 00:29:52,590 What's coming on the other side of that is even gonna be more so. Don't 479 00:29:52,590 --> 00:29:56,290 even freak out about that because on the on the other end of that is 480 00:29:57,685 --> 00:30:00,825 the triumph of God, of good over evil, 481 00:30:01,365 --> 00:30:05,125 of God over Satan. And so take take 482 00:30:05,125 --> 00:30:08,585 heart, don't be surprised, and don't freak out. 483 00:30:08,645 --> 00:30:12,480 Right. So in the Old Testament, when 484 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,320 there's prophetic about 485 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,160 Jesus coming, anything like that, their response was 486 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,920 almost just I don't know if extreme alertness was it, 487 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,065 but they were looking for the coming king. 488 00:30:27,684 --> 00:30:31,445 And, like, there's I was reading the beginning of Luke, I 489 00:30:31,445 --> 00:30:34,725 think, and there's someone mentioned at the beginning of the book that he was around 490 00:30:34,725 --> 00:30:37,065 the temple for years and he wanted to see the Messiah. 491 00:30:38,450 --> 00:30:42,210 That seems like, they were so excited about the prophetic word 492 00:30:42,210 --> 00:30:45,570 that was coming. Is that a response that we should have? It's it's interesting that 493 00:30:45,570 --> 00:30:48,130 you say that because I think that for the most part, a lot of the 494 00:30:48,130 --> 00:30:51,695 prophetic writing in the Old Testament mostly had an 495 00:30:51,695 --> 00:30:55,375 immediate application to it Sure. Mhmm. Of, like, hey hey. This is 496 00:30:55,375 --> 00:30:58,915 about this thing is about to happen in the next couple of years, 497 00:30:59,135 --> 00:31:02,755 and here's what I need you to do right now. Mhmm. 498 00:31:03,210 --> 00:31:05,309 And it did have some more futuristic 499 00:31:07,770 --> 00:31:10,750 prophecy to it predicting the coming of Jesus. 500 00:31:11,450 --> 00:31:14,570 But I think, again, I think they lived so much in the moment, and I 501 00:31:14,730 --> 00:31:18,195 we can't really judge them as a culture for this. They live so much in 502 00:31:18,195 --> 00:31:19,335 the moment that they 503 00:31:22,035 --> 00:31:25,555 a a lot of them weren't anticipating Mhmm. The coming of 504 00:31:25,555 --> 00:31:29,155 Jesus. And those that were anticipating the 505 00:31:29,155 --> 00:31:32,669 coming of the Christ, of coming of the Messiah, We're looking at 506 00:31:32,669 --> 00:31:36,350 it through a very narrow lens of you're going to 507 00:31:36,350 --> 00:31:39,570 overthrow this bad government right now for me. 508 00:31:39,710 --> 00:31:43,409 Right. And so even still, they there was a very kind of 509 00:31:43,789 --> 00:31:47,169 self focused, now focused view 510 00:31:48,445 --> 00:31:52,044 that allowed them to miss the bigger 511 00:31:52,044 --> 00:31:54,945 picture of what Jesus wanted to accomplish 512 00:31:55,804 --> 00:31:59,504 while he was here. Mhmm. The same way right now, we we 513 00:31:59,740 --> 00:32:03,580 we we can look at all the the things in the book 514 00:32:03,580 --> 00:32:07,279 of Revelation, and we get we get distracted by, 515 00:32:07,740 --> 00:32:11,340 well, that sounds like I'm gonna have to go through something bad. Right. 516 00:32:11,340 --> 00:32:14,299 Right. And we're and we and we just have such we just can't get out 517 00:32:14,299 --> 00:32:17,914 of our own tunnel vision of what is this 518 00:32:17,914 --> 00:32:21,355 gonna mean for me. Mhmm. I don't well, I don't want these bad things to 519 00:32:21,355 --> 00:32:25,115 happen. I don't want these bad things to happen to me. And so you'll 520 00:32:25,115 --> 00:32:27,755 see, and I think we'll talk about this a little bit more as we kinda 521 00:32:27,755 --> 00:32:30,975 get into some of the details of what Revelation says, is that 522 00:32:31,290 --> 00:32:34,970 sometimes we have this response of, like, we feel like it is 523 00:32:34,970 --> 00:32:38,810 our job as Christians to prevent some 524 00:32:38,810 --> 00:32:42,490 of the things in Revelation from happening. It is our 525 00:32:42,490 --> 00:32:46,085 job to protect ourselves and to make sure that something 526 00:32:46,085 --> 00:32:49,865 like make sure, you know, antichrist doesn't get power. 527 00:32:50,245 --> 00:32:53,605 Mhmm. I I mean, good luck. Right. 528 00:32:53,605 --> 00:32:57,365 Right. God says the antichrist is gonna take power. Too. Yeah. 529 00:32:57,365 --> 00:33:01,160 And you sitting around voting for who 530 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,780 you think isn't someone isn't the antichrist or or lamenting 531 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,300 against politicians who have non Christian values 532 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,360 is not gonna prevent something that that God has 533 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,125 said very surely will happen. Mhmm. I mean, there are 534 00:33:16,125 --> 00:33:19,905 some things like the book of Jonah where he says, hey. Here's a prophetic message, 535 00:33:20,845 --> 00:33:24,685 and what what happens depends on 536 00:33:24,685 --> 00:33:27,345 your response to it. Mhmm. So 537 00:33:28,285 --> 00:33:32,049 Jonah's message was, you know, repent or god's gonna 538 00:33:32,049 --> 00:33:35,730 destroy the city. Mhmm. Well, they repented, so god didn't destroy the city. This 539 00:33:35,730 --> 00:33:39,409 isn't repent or Armageddon's gonna happen. Right. It's gonna 540 00:33:39,570 --> 00:33:43,065 hey. Guess what? Armageddon's gonna happen. Mhmm. And we're 541 00:33:43,304 --> 00:33:47,145 again, we're so adverse to that. We spend some time trying to 542 00:33:47,145 --> 00:33:50,825 prevent it rather than really having a 543 00:33:50,825 --> 00:33:54,365 big picture theology of that includes suffering, 544 00:33:54,664 --> 00:33:58,169 that includes a broken world, and can take hope 545 00:33:58,169 --> 00:34:01,929 in even in the midst of suffering 546 00:34:01,929 --> 00:34:05,390 and trials. Mhmm. And so I think for 547 00:34:06,090 --> 00:34:09,929 people who only knew adversity, primary readers of 548 00:34:09,929 --> 00:34:13,755 a lot of these apocalyptic things, who only knew adversity, only 549 00:34:13,755 --> 00:34:16,094 knew persecution, only knew subjugation, 550 00:34:17,835 --> 00:34:21,534 they would have taken it as hopeful. Mhmm. But if you think, 551 00:34:21,994 --> 00:34:25,830 actually, I I really like it here. I kinda like my life. Right. I'm sure 552 00:34:25,830 --> 00:34:29,510 it's bad in places, but I don't live in those places. Yeah. And sometimes 553 00:34:29,510 --> 00:34:32,870 bad things happen here, but I've got plans to kind of overcome most of 554 00:34:32,870 --> 00:34:35,770 that. So do you think we've lost sight of 555 00:34:36,790 --> 00:34:40,250 how awesome eternity with God is gonna be? 556 00:34:40,875 --> 00:34:44,155 I think we I think I think, yeah, I think we we we like what 557 00:34:44,155 --> 00:34:47,995 we have here, and I think there's a deep fear of the unknown. Yeah. 558 00:34:47,995 --> 00:34:51,534 Hey. Guess what, Abigail? For eternity, 559 00:34:52,235 --> 00:34:55,599 you're gonna have to live someplace you've never 560 00:34:55,599 --> 00:34:59,359 seen and do something you don't know what, and you're gonna have to 561 00:34:59,359 --> 00:35:03,140 do it forever. Right. Like, I remember Heidi, my wife, 562 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,640 saying this to the guy who was doing some of our pre marriage counseling. She 563 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,295 was talking about anxiety about becoming a wife. Like, I'm 564 00:35:10,295 --> 00:35:13,255 making a commitment to do something for the rest of my life that I've never 565 00:35:13,494 --> 00:35:16,615 exactly what it is. That I've never done once in my I've never once been 566 00:35:16,615 --> 00:35:19,575 a wife. Mhmm. And now I'm making a commitment that I'm gonna do it for 567 00:35:19,575 --> 00:35:21,974 the rest of my life. I think there's a little bit of that to it. 568 00:35:21,974 --> 00:35:25,660 Mhmm. I think I think there's a sense in which I 569 00:35:25,660 --> 00:35:28,400 know what this is even though it is imperfect, 570 00:35:29,340 --> 00:35:32,940 and I ignore the bad parts. I work really hard to make it only 571 00:35:32,940 --> 00:35:36,320 good, and I convince myself that this is good. 572 00:35:36,945 --> 00:35:40,545 So bad kinda freaks me out, and I'll take 573 00:35:40,545 --> 00:35:44,225 this imperfect thing that I that I 574 00:35:44,225 --> 00:35:47,825 know versus anything that I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. That makes 575 00:35:47,825 --> 00:35:51,580 sense. So oh, I mean, 576 00:35:51,580 --> 00:35:55,099 it makes me think of, I was in a history class in college 577 00:35:55,099 --> 00:35:58,940 and they're talking about manifest destiny and all of the different ideas 578 00:35:58,940 --> 00:36:02,700 of early America is very inspired by scripture, 579 00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:06,315 all these things. And then one student was like, well, looks like 580 00:36:06,315 --> 00:36:10,155 the Christians failed. You don't have, like, a government of 581 00:36:10,155 --> 00:36:13,855 your own and all this stuff. And I was like, that's a really interesting point. 582 00:36:14,155 --> 00:36:17,855 That's not what I ever thought our goal was, but 583 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,720 we could maybe get that kind of confusion of, like, we can do enough 584 00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:26,480 to Well and and we'll talk about this. And this may be a good 585 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,240 stopping point for us then to kinda make the transition. Because there was for a 586 00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:33,140 long period of time, which would have included 587 00:36:34,575 --> 00:36:38,195 the the late 17 100, 18 100, where 588 00:36:38,335 --> 00:36:41,555 a thought about what the book of Revelation meant was 589 00:36:41,855 --> 00:36:45,215 things were going to be bad for a season, but we, in 590 00:36:45,215 --> 00:36:46,994 fact, did have the ability 591 00:36:49,119 --> 00:36:52,880 to Christianize the whole world. And then once we did 592 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,560 that job, Jesus would come back. Right. That all the bad things in 593 00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,240 Revelation are gonna happen during this window, but we 594 00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:03,944 can fix it. We are gonna make the world better. We are gonna make the 595 00:37:03,944 --> 00:37:07,625 world completely and totally Christian. And then once we 596 00:37:07,625 --> 00:37:11,305 have, as God's people, have conquered evil here, Jesus comes 597 00:37:11,305 --> 00:37:14,984 back. Mhmm. So we can talk more about that because I think that that 598 00:37:14,984 --> 00:37:18,050 really did kind of inform that. Yeah. And 599 00:37:18,830 --> 00:37:22,610 we can talk about all the reasons why people don't believe that anymore because 600 00:37:22,990 --> 00:37:26,590 the way the world unfolded in the early parts of 20th 601 00:37:26,590 --> 00:37:30,430 century. Right. But that's that's a good stopping point because now now we're about to 602 00:37:30,430 --> 00:37:33,895 get into it. So I think before we start talking about the the details of 603 00:37:33,895 --> 00:37:37,655 that, it'd probably be good for us to do kind of the big picture overview 604 00:37:37,655 --> 00:37:41,095 of kind of the major schools of thought. Yeah. So we'll do that next episode. 605 00:37:41,095 --> 00:37:44,930 But let's answer that question. Okay. And let's, you 606 00:37:44,930 --> 00:37:47,970 know, actually follow-up on our promise that I would get an answer out of you. 607 00:37:47,970 --> 00:37:51,810 Of what? Someone walks up to you, and maybe 608 00:37:51,810 --> 00:37:55,490 they've had experiences of anxiety with the book of Revelation, or 609 00:37:55,490 --> 00:37:58,965 they just don't understand it. Why should I read it? 610 00:37:59,425 --> 00:38:02,625 With all of what we've said in mind, why would you say it's worth their 611 00:38:02,625 --> 00:38:05,665 time to sit down and read it? Well, I mean, I would say, I think 612 00:38:05,665 --> 00:38:08,625 for the most part, I think I think you are. If you've got a limited 613 00:38:08,625 --> 00:38:12,065 amount of time, I mean, I would I would I would encourage you to read 614 00:38:12,869 --> 00:38:16,309 spend more time on the gospel of John and the book of Romans 615 00:38:16,309 --> 00:38:20,009 and second Timothy and Galatians. I mean, there's lots of 616 00:38:20,230 --> 00:38:23,690 books that I feel like are just better 617 00:38:23,990 --> 00:38:27,734 as far as your ability to kind of as far as, like, what 618 00:38:27,734 --> 00:38:31,355 I really want out of my devotional Mhmm. Reading 619 00:38:31,414 --> 00:38:35,255 time with God. But I do think that it's important on some level for 620 00:38:35,255 --> 00:38:39,095 us to have some general understanding of kind of the big picture story 621 00:38:39,095 --> 00:38:42,750 of the Bible from Genesis to Genesis to Revelation. I mean, we don't 622 00:38:42,750 --> 00:38:45,410 spend a whole lot of time talking about the 623 00:38:46,270 --> 00:38:49,870 the the kings of the divided kingdom between 624 00:38:49,870 --> 00:38:53,470 Israel and Judea post Solomon before the exile into 625 00:38:53,470 --> 00:38:56,924 Babylon. And And even me saying that phrase, like, I don't even know what we 626 00:38:56,924 --> 00:38:59,664 need to under we need to understand that. We need to understand 627 00:39:00,684 --> 00:39:04,525 have an overview, big picture idea of the whole thing. And so part 628 00:39:04,525 --> 00:39:07,105 of that is understanding how the story ends. 629 00:39:08,170 --> 00:39:11,930 And at the same time, I think it's important for us to read and understand 630 00:39:11,930 --> 00:39:15,610 that so that we aren't caught off guard, and I think it does 631 00:39:15,610 --> 00:39:19,130 help us shake off an, 632 00:39:19,610 --> 00:39:23,355 imperfect worldview that we have that this 633 00:39:23,355 --> 00:39:27,195 world is great, and our job is to make it great as opposed 634 00:39:27,195 --> 00:39:30,795 to really understanding that we live in a broken 635 00:39:30,795 --> 00:39:34,175 fallen world, and our hope is not in this world but the next. Yeah. 636 00:39:36,390 --> 00:39:39,690 But I would encourage you 637 00:39:40,470 --> 00:39:44,310 to read it in a group, and I would encourage you to read 638 00:39:44,310 --> 00:39:48,150 it with someone who has at least some sort of I 639 00:39:48,150 --> 00:39:51,825 would encourage you to study it with a trusted person Yeah. 640 00:39:51,905 --> 00:39:55,505 Because it is not easily understood. So we'll have a sign up 641 00:39:55,505 --> 00:39:59,125 sheet to read it with Charlie. Stop. Most most people 642 00:39:59,265 --> 00:40:02,785 most pee like, there are lots of parts of the Bible that I would encourage 643 00:40:02,785 --> 00:40:06,320 people to read the parts that are most easily 644 00:40:06,380 --> 00:40:10,080 understood on your own. Sure. But there are parts of the Bible that are significantly 645 00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:14,140 more difficult to understand on your own. Mhmm. And so that's where 646 00:40:14,140 --> 00:40:17,520 we'll spend most of our time on Sundays teaching from the books 647 00:40:17,985 --> 00:40:21,825 that people can uneasily understand on their own because I want people to believe that 648 00:40:21,825 --> 00:40:25,665 the Bible is user friendly, which it is. But there are some parts 649 00:40:25,665 --> 00:40:29,505 of the Bible that are just significantly less user friendly. Right. 650 00:40:29,505 --> 00:40:33,280 So it's important to understand it. It's great. Spend your time 651 00:40:33,420 --> 00:40:37,100 mostly in your devotional reading, reading and studying the parts of the 652 00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:40,560 Bible that you can most easily understand. Mhmm. 653 00:40:41,100 --> 00:40:44,220 Some of these other ones, do it in a group with someone who's gonna help 654 00:40:44,220 --> 00:40:47,885 you not get off the rails. Right. Yeah. That makes 655 00:40:47,885 --> 00:40:50,445 sense. Yeah? Okay. Good answer. I don't want you to feel like I didn't answer 656 00:40:50,445 --> 00:40:52,925 the question. If I feel like it's okay. Okay. And I'm sure we'll round that 657 00:40:52,925 --> 00:40:56,685 out even more For sure. Next episode. For sure. For sure. Hazus, thanks for joining 658 00:40:56,685 --> 00:41:00,530 us. If you have an interest in the book of Revelation, you're probably 659 00:41:00,530 --> 00:41:03,970 just like you just like you it'll drool coming out. I can't I can't wait 660 00:41:03,970 --> 00:41:07,730 for the next episode. We're gonna talk about all the things. I feel like most 661 00:41:07,730 --> 00:41:11,490 of the time, I have a whiteboard. This is gonna be difficult in 662 00:41:11,490 --> 00:41:15,255 podcast format. Stolen. Wow. But even still, like, I mean, well, 663 00:41:15,255 --> 00:41:18,795 most of the people are listening to this rather than be be unfair. 664 00:41:19,815 --> 00:41:23,515 But we will. We'll kind of talk about some of the the different theories about 665 00:41:23,734 --> 00:41:27,450 what revelation is saying and which 666 00:41:27,450 --> 00:41:30,730 ones are more in fashion versus other ones and why and kind of a little 667 00:41:30,730 --> 00:41:34,170 bit of the history of it. And then we'll just, you know, we'll try to 668 00:41:34,170 --> 00:41:36,730 we'll try to do a bit of a deep dive into some of this too. 669 00:41:36,730 --> 00:41:39,770 So Yeah. I I love again, that's why I love the fact we got you 670 00:41:39,770 --> 00:41:43,424 here. We don't really know a whole lot about it. I'd rather be 671 00:41:43,424 --> 00:41:45,905 talking to somebody to fill in the gaps. So we can just kinda fill in 672 00:41:45,905 --> 00:41:49,665 some of the gaps, make sure we fully understand this as best we can. So 673 00:41:49,665 --> 00:41:53,280 thanks for joining us. Encourage you to keep coming back, to the next 674 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,200 episode. We're doing this for a couple more. Thanks for joining us. And as always, 675 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:58,980 Abigail, thank you. Good to be here. 676 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,555 Thank you for listening to the cultivate podcast. Our hope is that you are taking 677 00:42:06,555 --> 00:42:10,395 steps to go deeper in your faith, that you are asking big questions, and you're 678 00:42:10,395 --> 00:42:14,234 looking for answers. We hope that we can be a resource for you through 679 00:42:14,234 --> 00:42:17,515 our podcast and any other way that we can help you. You can find all 680 00:42:17,515 --> 00:42:21,170 our episodes anywhere that you can find podcasts including YouTube. And 681 00:42:21,170 --> 00:42:23,030 again, thank you so much for joining us.