Meg (00:15) Welcome back to the Creative Thread. Today we're picking up right where we left off with Sarah for the second half of our conversation. It's been a little more than the two weeks I promised at the end of the last episode, but I was finally able to get this one wrapped up and I'm excited to share the rest of our conversation with you. Sarah (00:39) I do think as I'm getting older, I'm I'm able to give myself the grace I gave everyone else for so long. And that's been really encouraging. I think just showing up on social media is not so hard. I'm kinda lazy, I'm not gonna lie to you. Like posting regularly is so hard for me. Sarah (00:54) Because I love I love seeing other people's work. Scrolling doesn't affect me. Like I will never be someone that scrolls and is like threatened or feels triggered really. I've I've long gone left that season of life. But Meg Loeks (01:04) Mm-hmm. Sarah (01:06) actually getting on there and thinking of like a decent caption. Most of the time I'm writing them like on the toilet, let's be honest. Like I'm like, this is the only time I can think clearly and I'm by myself, kind of, you know. I'm sh I'm shocked no one's knocked. Yes. Meg Loeks (01:20) Yeah. Sarah (01:21) All that the one thing is our kids are always with us. Sarah (01:24) Even my business, like we bring our kids to my sessions. We would usually like bribe an older kid with like Starbucks or fast food or something they really wanted because of course I'm gonna pay them for their time in any way they want me to. it's not just an extra friend. Meg Loeks (01:36) Mm-hmm. I pay my kids. Sarah (01:38) Yeah. And it wouldn't be it'd be an adventure. Like for an hour we take up to the mountains and we'd all kinda hang out and they'd be off to the side or watching movies in the car or whatever they wanted to do with their time. And Wes comes to every s he's been to every session since I started. Sarah (01:54) Mostly because Meg Loeks (01:54) It's amazing. Sarah (01:55) well, so back when I started Craigslist Killer was a thing Meg Loeks (01:59) Mm. Sarah (02:00) a long time ago. In the state I was starting in, I did a session in Rhode Island, he's like, You're not going by yourself. And so I remember thinking like what do I wear as a photographer? So he took me to Walmart and I bought khakis loafers because that I like, I need a uniform, right? Like obviously Meg Loeks (02:15) My gosh Sarah (02:15) And then after that, like it just he it was he was like a security blanket 'cause I had really bad social anxiety. But when he was around, Meg Loeks (02:22) Mm. Sarah (02:22) I felt like I could kind of light up enough to talk to people. And then, you know, it started like he comes to my workshops because I'm so scatterbrained. I lose everything. It's so funny. When I teach in Estes he doesn't come because I'm like forty minutes from home. But the women Meg Loeks (02:35) Right. Sarah (02:36) always find it really funny because I lose my phone. Sarah (02:39) all the time. So I would have to wear my Apple Watch so I could ding my phone and they would be like, your phone's over there, Sarah. Or like I just Meg Loeks (02:46) I'm the same way. Sarah (02:47) I'm a hopeless, like lost cause when it comes I have no sense of direction. And then you know like when Meg Loeks (02:52) Same. Sarah (02:52) we moved here, our whole support system is in Connecticut. I actually I was born and raised in Connecticut, never thought I'd leave. Then I taught at a photography seminar in Vegas before we moved here. Sarah (03:04) And someone came out to support me who lived in Colorado and we just hit it off. She was so funny. Like we became fast friends. And she's like, You would love Colorado. You would fit in so good. So we started Googling it and I was like, Yeah, why not? So we just packed up our kid in our car, like our we had four kids at the time, our dog, and we just drove cross country and we moved and it was just like the best thing we could have ever done. It wasn't a photography decision. It was more so just a slower pace. It was cheaper because Meg Loeks (03:32) Mm. Sarah (03:32) we moved here in 2011. Sarah (03:35) And I always thought like if it doesn't work, we could move back. It's funny because there's also always the discussion around like the scenic locations. But when I first moved here, I didn't know how to get to the mountains, which is ridiculous. It's like not even far from my house. So I take people to like sculpture gardens and like parks. The Rocky Mountains Meg Loeks (03:53) Yeah. Sarah (03:53) are like right there. And I mean for me, like the location is just a big prop, right? Like it's beautiful. Sarah (04:01) But I'm really drawn to the moments. So sometimes I have to remember to back up and like actually capture the atmosphere because I'm so engrossed in what everyone's doing right in front of me that like the mountains are just around. it's fun for them to be able to like go in the river, have a fun experience with their family. I think it's wonderful for that, but I could care less. Like I started in Connecticut for like one location everybody used and it was like a very fancy mansion. Sarah (04:27) And I remember all the photographers being in the gardens and like I was by the service shed in the back because the doors were like old wood. Yeah, like trying to find the spot. So I've always Meg Loeks (04:33) That's me. Yes. Yeah, that's me. Mm-hmm. Sarah (04:37) just kind of I need something different. Like I need to be and if I start to do something that I perceive as trendy, I'm like, I have to switch this up somehow. This is getting to be too like Meg Loeks (04:46) Same. Sarah (04:47) mainstream. I don't know what it is. I've never looked at another photographer and thought, like, I want my work to look exactly like that. I'm always like, how can I Sarah (04:55) compete with myself to be a little different. You know, and I've changed so subtly over the years. But if you looked at my work from five years ago, like the whole style is shifted. My voice is very true to me. Like I've always been very honest with like my work. I like my prime lenses. There are some things I can never change. I move around Meg Loeks (05:15) Mm-hmm. Sarah (05:15) way too much when I shoot. I'm always falling or like hurting myself. But the processing it's just it's kind of like the icing on a cake, right? it's Sarah (05:24) Only there to accentuate, make things a little yummier. I think people tend to mistake like voice and style all the time and it's such a different thing. My ADHD tangent. Sorry, I'm going all over the place now. I'm Meg Loeks (05:37) No, Meg Loeks (05:37) I it's I agree with you a hundred percent. it's funny where I live, I would consider it remote. most people do. And actually one of the reasons we moved here was because the population was declining. So we were like, that sounds awesome. And we could buy a lot of land for for pretty cheap. But there's a lot of ghost towns here. you know, be the my mining and logging are really big. And in the eight I think it was the eighties, a Meg Loeks (06:04) Bunch of mines closed. And it kind of really affected the economy here. But there is a lot of character and I love it. Like I love finding, Sarah (06:12) I'm the same. Meg Loeks (06:14) yeah, there's so many buildings here that are run down and there are ghost towns and stuff. And I'm like, this is a great location, you know. So yeah, I don't know, that's my cup of tea. Sarah (06:20) That sounds amazing. I miss New England. Sarah (06:24) Same thing. I we've talked about moving back for a while, but we love family much more from afar. I love my family so much, but we just do so much Meg Loeks (06:32) Yeah. Sarah (06:34) better. So we've talked about moving to like the far west coast, to maybe like Oregon. But I don't Colorado for me, one thing I love about Colorado is the photography community. I love the women here so much. They are Sarah (06:50) phenomenal. I've made some of the greatest friends. They have been there for me and vice versa and like really hard times. I remember when Lily was in the hospital, like I had to cancel my whole fall season. And I support my family. My husband's a stay-at-home dad. I'm the breadwinner. And so I was like, I don't know how we're gonna get through and afford Christmas. And I remember coming home one day and there was an envelope taped to my front door with seven hundred dollars in it. Sarah (07:15) For Christmas gifts for my kids. Like I didn't ask, I didn't even advertise or share what we were really going through because I'm an oldest daughter. So I'm like, I'm just gonna power through and figure it out myself. That's just my personality. I'm terrible at asking for help. But the way that they showed up, I've never experienced anything like that. And I felt so held Meg Loeks (07:34) Mm-hmm. Sarah (07:35) in that moment. And Sarah (07:38) Like the thought of just moving away from these connections and relationships kind of break my heart. So I don't know if I can leave here because of them. Which sounds crazy 'cause I know Meg Loeks (07:47) Mm. Sarah (07:48) everyone's like, that's your competition, but they're not. You know, I teach with Meg Loeks (07:51) They're not. Sarah (07:51) a girl that's one town over from me. Sarah (07:54) If you are willing to open yourself up to that kind of community, it'll really surprise you at how much sweeter it makes everything. We help each other with our work, we share locations, I refer away clients that can't, you know, I can't Meg Loeks (08:06) Mm. Sarah (08:06) take or whatever. I have no problem with it whatsoever. So it's it's pretty cool here. Colorado is beautiful, of course, too. I'd be like an idiot if I was saying it wasn't a magical place to live. Meg Loeks (08:18) Yeah, it is beautiful. Sarah (08:20) But it is busy. Sarah (08:21) Like when you were describing the declining population, it is just growing and growing. And when you leave your house, it's just the traffic is so bad. There's so many more car accidents here now. I'm not a fan. Meg Loeks (08:33) Mm. Sarah (08:34) Not a fan. Meg Loeks (08:36) Yeah. Yeah, that is hard. But that's it's beautiful that you have a community, right? That that supports you. Sarah (08:41) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Meg Loeks (08:42) I that's so important. it made me tear up when you shared that story. Sarah (08:45) It it really Sarah (08:47) we I was at rock bottom. Wes had just gone in the hospital the month before and they were talking about MS. He was losing feeling in one side of his body. At first we thought it was stroke. I was freaking out because Wes is the love of my life. I don't wanna be like the cheesy person on the internet, but I really do adore my husband. And then the month following that, Lily was involved in a serious car accident with her boyfriend and they were sideswiped and she broke her femur. They had to put like the full cast, she already has arthritis. Sarah (09:15) So, you know, like I she had to like learn how to walk again, you know, like usually for people like that, they'd be in a walker, you know, and then crutches, but she was bedbound for a little longer and then she had to have a second surgery. So everything slows down. You know, like when your kids are hurt, I know you know, 'cause you've been through Meg Loeks (09:32) Yeah. Sarah (09:32) the ringer. So, you know, like it kind of made me realize like what's important, what can kind of it there was one moment I had booked a wedding. Sarah (09:42) And of course it was happening while she was getting ready to have her surgery. It was the day before her surgery during the car accident. So I had to leave the hospital and go shoot the wedding and then come back to the hospital because you can't leave that's part of being a professional in this industry. Like if, you know, you're not prepared. But, you know, the community really like it was just one thing after another. And then I lost my social media at the same time. It was probably the hardest year of my life. And I kind of disappeared for almost a year because of it. People were checking on me. Sarah (10:10) People hadn't heard from, they were texting. And it's weird because I was like, Am I even relevant anymore? When I lost my following in my mind, I was like, People, I'm just gonna, you know, disappear into the sunset. And they were like, Nope. We're not gonna let you go. And it's weird because I had a whole identity crisis. And then of course I found out I was pregnant a few months after Lily's accident. So I'm like, going through this geriatric pregnancy while like tired and it was probably the Sarah (10:39) the hardest year, but it really was the most formative. I think I learned who I was. I think I had the opportunity to heal a lot of things. I needed to isolate for a while. And now coming back posting on social media, it doesn't seem that serious anymore. Things I cared about I don't care anymore. Like it's Meg Loeks (10:52) Yes. Yeah. Sarah (10:55) so I remember there was one photographer, I don't know if I should share this. I will never mention names and I'm not like that. But we had been close up to that point. And when I lost my social media that night, I called her crying and she just wouldn't answer the phone. Sarah (11:09) And so I called my next friend and she answered immediately and she was there. And it was crazy because that other person I called leading up to that point, I was going through a hard time and she was really upset with me, you know, for like not being as responsive and and I think from there I also had to like take a step back from like a lot of what I was doing in the industry and who I was, you know, trying to be and and looking back and being like, All right, I need to give myself permission. Sarah (11:39) to like feel this and take time away and not try to always be the good, you know, girl photographer or the it was it was a rude awakening, I think, in a lot of respects. It taught me a lot about myself and like where I stood Sarah (11:55) it was one of those weird things where like you think you have it all. Like I was at the peak of my career. I was teaching workshop after workshop and Sarah (12:03) all these good things were happening and then I burnt out at the same time as all this. And when I couldn't be like who I was in the industry anymore, just kind of being aware of like where I stood with people that I thought would be my friend forever, you know, Meg Loeks (12:18) I've I have found that when you go through something traumatic, you realize who very quickly who's who's there for you and who's not. And in Sarah (12:26) Yeah. Meg Loeks (12:26) many cases, in many cases, there's people that surprised me that were there there for me that like I would never have expected to be there. And Sarah (12:33) Yeah. Meg Loeks (12:35) it and it also I think you said this, but it it really puts things in perspective about how certain things are just very trivial. Meg Loeks (12:44) Like to Sarah (12:45) Yeah. Meg Loeks (12:45) let go of certain things, to set boundaries and be like, you know what, this this in the grand scheme of things is very silly. Like this is I'm going through something so much harder and it's so Sarah (12:53) It was real life. Meg Loeks (12:56) much like that sets really scary and life altering. And Sarah (13:01) It was. Meg Loeks (13:02) this, this thing that's maybe happening with social media or whatever is so trivial. Like it is, it is something Sarah (13:07) It is. Meg Loeks (13:08) I need to let go because again, in the grand scheme of things, there's so much more going on with my family Meg Loeks (13:13) That matters, right? So yeah. Sarah (13:14) Yes. And it's it's Sarah (13:16) so hard to explain. It's weird too because trying to find grace for myself and then grace for the people around me. And also Meg Loeks (13:22) Mm. Sarah (13:23) I was definitely like the crisis friend in that moment, which is very embarrassing for me because I'm the one that usually like keeps it together. And I'm usually the one that is the helper. So also being in this position where you're really vulnerable and you're needing help was just like, I don't know where to go. I don't know where to turn to, I don't know who to talk Meg Loeks (13:40) Mm-hmm. Sarah (13:41) to. And then, you know Sarah (13:43) I really did make my photography business a big part of my identity. Like myself as a photographer and I think all the validation from having such a big following for so many years and doing all these crazy cool things, you know, when Meg Loeks (13:54) Mm-hmm. Sarah (13:55) that is stripped away and some people aren't there and then you have all these new amazing people too, like people that you didn't know before that. It's kind of it's sad in a way because it's like a series of goodbyes. Again, it's kinda like with your children, you know, you're always saying goodbye to like a different season. Sarah (14:13) But when I look back at like what I had to do and all the things I had to carry and what I had to hold to be who I was before, I think I was making more of a sacrifice than I realized. You know, I remember people saying, like, I don't know how you do it all. And I've never felt like I had to, because Wes is such a great partner. I've always had a great support system there. But the perception of all of that, I can imagine like people thought I was superwoman for a while, having a big family and Sarah (14:41) And behind the scenes, like I was like shouting into a void like, no, I need community, I need help, you know. And so Sarah (14:47) on the other side of it, you realize like it's okay to ask. It's okay if people do fall away. You know, even with the friend that Meg Loeks (14:51) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sarah (14:53) that kind of wasn't there, I don't blame her. Like I don't feel angry, I don't feel resentful. I there wasn't a falling out. I'm still cheering her on in a lot of ways because I hope Sarah (15:07) But a lot of people don't go through all that at one time, you know, so kind of like looking back at where I was, sometimes people don't know how to relate to that position unless they've been in those shoes. And so, Meg Loeks (15:15) Mm. Sarah (15:17) you know, there's a radical like acceptance for me because it's like, we just we went through it and I survived it and I came out on the other side of it. And now I feel like I have almost more grit and more determination. And I love a comeback story. So I'm like, what can I do? Meg Loeks (15:32) Mm-hmm. Sarah (15:33) To, you know, get through this, but also seeing people in our industry that are still in a space where they care about all the things that don't really matter. You know, the things that they feel triggered or hurt by. Like there are things way more precious than your work. You know, there are things that you're gonna look back in ten years. What are you gonna miss the most? Is it are you really gonna remember Meg Loeks (15:53) Right. Sarah (15:54) that one off comment? Sarah (15:55) there's so much good. Sarah (15:56) There's so much good in this industry. There's so many phenomenal people. I feel so grateful to be here. I mean, with you even. I'm so glad that you invited me to do this. It means a lot. Meg Loeks (16:05) Likewise. Yeah. Yeah. Meg Loeks (16:08) Well, thank you. I I'm honored that you're here. and I I do have, you know, one random question that Sarah (16:17) Yeah. Meg Loeks (16:17) I ask everybody as we kind of wrap up this amazing conversation. and it's it's just a kind of a a random, silly question that I think helps other people get to know a little bit more about you, right? And Sarah (16:29) Yeah. Meg Loeks (16:29) it's what's one very specific thing. Meg Loeks (16:34) That makes you feel nostalgic. Sarah (16:37) gosh. I wanna say it's like the first twenty four hours after you have your your child. And it's just Meg Loeks (16:46) Yeah, Sarah (16:47) you and them and it's dark. There is that my god, I'm gonna cry. There is this, god, I really am. There's a reel it talks about going back and just spending that first twenty four hours with your first child. Like the the first baby that made you a mom, and I think she's gonna be twenty-four now. Sarah (17:03) God, I would give anything to just that like there's such a vulnerability and a rawness and your body is just like bleeding and you're exhausted Meg Loeks (17:11) Mm-hmm. Sarah (17:12) with the love, like to experience that for the first time is it's its own magic. And I feel like, you know, my whole identity isn't motherhood because I'm so many other things outside of that, but I love being a mom and I love being their mom. And God Sarah (17:31) You got me, Meg. Sorry. Ugh. Meg Loeks (17:32) Yeah. Yeah, you got me. You got Meg Loeks (17:34) me. It's it is it's yeah, I I my Sarah (17:37) There's so much love. Meg Loeks (17:39) my husband picked up our youngest son, he's four, like yesterday, the day before, he still asked to be picked up and to be carried to bed. And I said to him, I said, You never know, like this might be the last time you carry him to bed, you know. Sarah (17:53) It c it could and Lucy Sarah (17:56) is one, she's still nursing, but she she sleeps in our bed and my youngest after her is six who Seela is so adorable. She's like this little energetic when we say she has like puppy energy 'cause she's just all over the place. Meg Loeks (18:09) Yeah. Sarah (18:10) But Lucy like I remember when I found out I was pregnant, I was forty, maybe forty, forty one. I'm turning forty three this year. Sarah (18:19) And I remember looking at her well, looking at like the ultrasound picture and be like, What are you thinking? You're starting all over. Like I was the young mom. Now I'm like having this child and it's scary. Like, what is this gonna look like? And now I Meg Loeks (18:31) Mm. Sarah (18:31) look at her sometimes while she's sleeping and I cry, which sounds so this is why my work is the way it is. Because it's like I can't imagine never having this opportunity, like never getting to do this this last time. Sarah (18:44) I've never been a big fan of one stage. You know, I think a lot of people perceive women with a lot of children to either Meg Loeks (18:49) Same. Sarah (18:50) be a sane or like really love the babies. And the baby stage freaks me out actually. They can't communicate. They can't tell you what's wrong. Like everything is an exhausting blur. They're cute, but like I could but when they get old enough to like really show you who they are. Sarah (19:05) And they're like I've always tried to meet my kids where they are as their own people. I've never seen Meg Loeks (19:09) Mm. Sarah (19:09) our family as a commodity or my children as just an extension of me. I've always known like these are their own humans. And like I get to be their mom. Like that is the coolest freaking thing I get to w watch them like grow into their sense of humor. And even the things they say sometimes are so funny. It's like shocking. Like, my God, you're crazy. But it's Sarah (19:30) I love all of it and I love it for my clients too. I think that's what's so inspiring when I'm working with like families and seeing all those little dynamics in their household and the different relationships between the parents and the children. I my mom, I don't know, she'll listen 'cause she might Sarah (19:48) But my mom is not a touchy feely mom. She was not like, I'm gonna hug you or kiss you. And so, like, my kids are very physically affectionate, and I'm learning how to be really good at receiving that. Sometimes I get touched out very easy and I have to like just pretend. But, Meg Loeks (20:02) Yeah, yeah. Sarah (20:03) you know, like I think my goal as a mom has been to be everything that I needed as a child, and I've totally reparented myself throughout all Meg Loeks (20:11) Mm-hmm. Sarah (20:12) of this. So, you know, as my kids get older, like it's just it feels like one big adventure. Sarah (20:17) You know, I never feel Meg Loeks (20:17) Yeah. Sarah (20:18) like I'm losing that whole eighteen summer thing, yeah, it's sad. I know that Meg Loeks (20:21) Mm. Sarah (20:21) like these seasons are ending, but I love that they'll just always have me in any capacity they want me to be in their walk and I can be like their village Meg Loeks (20:29) it reminds me of like a reel that I saw where it was like I think it was from like I don't think it was a movie. I think it was like a show. But it Sarah (20:36) Mm-hmm. Meg Loeks (20:37) it was it's pretty famous and I can't remember the actor's name, but he's talking about how like the different stages of like your child goes through and how it's like a new person at each stage. And then you're Sarah (20:47) It is. Meg Loeks (20:48) you're like greeted with a new person at this stage and then a new person and again and again, and it always kind of keeps you on your toes and it's exciting. Sarah (20:54) It's purple. Meg Loeks (20:54) 'Cause you just yeah, they they shift and they change. And that that happens all through life though. I mean, let's be honest. Let's not not just until Sarah (21:01) It does. Meg Loeks (21:01) they're eighteen. I mean, I'm still going through changes, of course, you know? So Sarah (21:04) Yeah. Sarah (21:07) I'm not who I was even becoming a mother. And I find it Meg Loeks (21:09) Mm-hmm. Sarah (21:10) amazing that like my kids have this whole journey and this whole life that's gonna unfold in there. The only thing I I have a hard time with is like you don't always get a chance to say goodbye to the prior version. Meg Loeks (21:20) Mm, mm-hmm. Sarah (21:22) And it every day feels so similar, yet you look back and everything is so different. You know, I've always loved being with my children. I've worn my babies on my sessions. Sarah (21:33) Wes has come along with me. I've always just known like this is temporary and I am going to enjoy every single second that I can. And I know like with big families, the one thing I try not to take personally is people be like, There's no way you can give all those kids enough love. And I'm like, I can. I am if anyone can do it. It's just Meg Loeks (21:52) Yeah. Sarah (21:53) like bleeding and pouring out. But I think part of loving your children too is just being willing to work on yourself, you know. Sarah (22:00) I also feel like who I was as a mom for my older kids, I've really adapted and changed and like evolved as a parent for our younger children. And I feel like I'm always apologizing and making amends. I wasn't ever a yeller. we were never really like but I feel like I'm just more present now. Like I understand Meg Loeks (22:18) Mm. Sarah (22:20) the importance of small things. I feel like I was so exhausted and overwhelmed and touched out when my big kids were little that like I was there, but I wasn't always there. Sarah (22:30) You know what I mean? Meg Loeks (22:31) Mm-hmm. Sarah (22:31) Like and I was starting a business, really. I mean yeah, I've Meg Loeks (22:34) You've grown. You grow as Meg Loeks (22:35) you know, you learn and you grow as a mother. Like the version the the version of mother that I was with my oldest son, I'm different now than I was then because I've learned a lot, you know. And and fortunately for me, and I'm sure this is for you too, like my my oldest son is just so like patient and kind and like you know, he Sarah (22:55) Yeah. Meg Loeks (22:56) just he just, you know, he had versions of me. Meg Loeks (23:01) that were probably like not the best because I didn't know what the heck I was doing. You know, even nursing. Sarah (23:04) Yeah. Meg Loeks (23:05) I remember, I remember calling my mom once, just crying and bawling because I was like, I we were struggling with nursing, you know? And my mom was like, and she she put me in check. She was like, your emotions, your your child can feel that. Like you've got Sarah (23:21) They can. Meg Loeks (23:22) to try to control it there and like get your get a grip, you know, because part of the reason why you might be struggling with nursing is that. Meg Loeks (23:29) He's feeling that, like the anxiety, you know? And so yeah, I just look back at that and I'm like, gosh, yeah. Sarah (23:34) We weren't taught to regulate. It's true. I had Sarah (23:37) to I didn't know you were responsible for regulating your kids' nervous system when my older kids were little. I just thought that worked itself out. So my poor kids, we were all anxious together. Like we were my poor Lily. You know, and now Meg Loeks (23:41) Mm. Mm-hmm. No, I know. It was all a mess. It was so chaotic. it is it yeah. Sarah (23:52) like big you know, Miss Rachel really is is really Meg Loeks (23:55) yeah. Sarah (23:55) carrying the load in our house. I love her, bless her heart. But Meg Loeks (23:57) Mm-hmm. Sarah (23:58) like the she has this song that big feelings are okay. So, Meg Loeks (24:01) Yeah. Sarah (24:02) you know, with our younger kids, they're like, Yeah. Sarah (24:04) like, thank you for for helping us all out here because Meg Loeks (24:07) Mm. Sarah (24:07) I was I was struggling. It's just being neurodivergent, you know, I knew I had ADHD because I was diagnosed in high school. They never said this is what ADHD is. They just said Meg Loeks (24:18) Yeah. Sarah (24:18) you feel this way because of it. But I'm like, Meg Loeks (24:20) Mm-hmm. Sarah (24:21) so then I think it became like a hyper focus around COVID. I was like, I want to know everything I can know about ADHD. Meg Loeks (24:27) Mm. Sarah (24:27) And it's so weird because I would look at other photographers and be like, Sarah (24:31) How do they keep showing up so well? Like they are so consistent, they're so put together. And then I realized, I have executive dysfunction. This is literally like, in some ways, a disability, and I need to find ways to overcome this. I am not medicated right now, obviously breastfeeding. Like I'm just abundantly cautious and and it's hard. I struggle with it. But I have neurodivergent children, and I feel like that also has made me a better mom being able to relate and understand what they're going through. Meg Loeks (24:58) Same. Sarah (24:59) I probably gave it to them. I'm so sorry. Sarah (25:01) But you know, it's Meg Loeks (25:01) Same. Yeah. Sarah (25:02) you learn like this is just if I can't give myself grace, how are they gonna do it? I have to model it. I have to Meg Loeks (25:08) Mm. Sarah (25:08) model through my behavior. It's the same with our photography industry. You know, going back to the other question, if I can model through my willingness to be accepting of the things that I perceive as hard or bad, then other women might be like, Okay, well, she is successful and has a business and clients and you know, I'm just I think there's a radical honesty that has to happen with yourself. So like Sarah (25:31) If I make a mistake instead of trying to hide it, I take accountability for it. You know, I'm so sorry that email slipped through the crack for two and a half, three days or you know, like I'm I'm doing the best I can. So that's really all you can do at the end of the day. And a good CRM. Really. Thank God for, you know, Meg Loeks (25:46) Yeah. Yeah. Mm hmm. Sarah (25:50) having that, 'cause I was a mess. I haven't double booked myself Sarah (25:54) in years. Meg Loeks (25:55) yes. I yeah, I I resonate with that. So where can people find your work, your education, and and follow along? I know that you mentioned, you know, not always like you're not always good at like consistently posting on social media, but but still regardless, like where can we follow along? Okay. Sarah (26:14) Instagram. Instagram Sarah (26:16) for sure. It's my fourhens photo with F O U R instead of photography, because that's the account I lost. I was able to grab it back, the name, but at that point I'd already restarted building. So I was like but I mean if I'm not posting in my feed, I'm always in my stories or my inbox. I have like conversations with people every day. I feel like I never understood how to use Snapchat or anything, but the story feature for me is kind of like that. It kind of gives me Sarah (26:42) I like that I can share where I'm at throughout the day without having to the the feed feels so formal. It really does. It like the feed plus if I'm posting, I really feel like I wanna go back and respond and be able to like thank people properly and also, you know, go out in our community and spread some love around and you don't always have time for that. So it's hard. that's honestly what I procrastinate around. It's not so much the posting. I just can't post and leave. I feel like I wanna Meg Loeks (27:10) Yeah. I can't either. Sarah (27:11) No, I feel bad. So TikTok maybe soon. I'm working on that. I have to figure out how to make videos. It's fine. Meg Loeks (27:20) Well, I Meg Loeks (27:20) have a funny story about that. So I I had a TikTok and it was actually a decent size account, but I just I don't know. I again one social media for me. So I was I told my Sarah (27:28) No. Yeah, it's hard. Meg Loeks (27:31) husb I told my husband, I was like, you know, how about you just start posting on there for me? Like I'll send you my my reels and you can just post them. Sarah (27:38) It's hard. Meg Loeks (27:39) I let him do it for one day. One day. And then I was like, no, Sarah (27:41) And he was like, Absolutely not. Meg Loeks (27:44) he wasn't, but I was like Meg Loeks (27:45) Okay, I'm taking down my account. We're not doing this. Like I was like, I don't even remember Sarah (27:47) All that Meg Loeks (27:49) what had happened. It just wasn't really that great. He's not a social media guy. And so I just, yeah. I I took that Sarah (27:52) Wes isn't either. He tries. It's not. Meg Loeks (27:55) account down so fast. I was like, okay, we're just done. We're just, I gave up on TikTok. Sarah (27:58) What was Sarah (27:59) what was the thing that we were all on during the pandemic? That we would get up and speak and there was no video. I loved that. I loved can Meg Loeks (28:06) Yes, Sarah (28:08) we bring that back? That was fun for me. Clubhouse. It was Yes. Meg Loeks (28:11) What yeah, we t we talked. It like I remember I jo Clubhouse, yes. And I think I Meg Loeks (28:15) joined one, I'll never forget. I joined one I think in the middle of the night once and you were in there. I think it was a room you were in and we all just chatted. I don't even yeah, I it was fun. Sarah (28:24) It's fun. I loved it. No one could see you. Sarah (28:27) You didn't need to wear pants. I did I remember I was drinking a lot of wine around that. I had to like quit drinking Meg Loeks (28:32) Ha ha ha. Sarah (28:33) wine because I was like, is this problematic? 'Cause I was so anxious at first, but it was fun. I like Clubhouse. Meg Loeks (28:38) Mm. Sarah (28:39) I wish we could bring that. I also had my website, it's my four hens photography dot com. Sarah (28:45) That like I'm working on, I just did like a Pixie set website, which is actually phenomenal. Meg Loeks (28:49) Mm. Sarah (28:50) Like they give you a lot of great options. I used to have a professionally done, I spent a lot of money and then it was hacked not even a year in. And Meg Loeks (28:58) Mm. Sarah (29:00) it was like I say goodbye to seven thousand dollars because I could not get a hold of the lady. And after that I was like, if I can do it myself, I just wanna do it myself. I was getting like PTSD getting on there having to like change anything. Meg Loeks (29:14) Yeah. Sarah (29:14) So, Sarah (29:15) if it looks a little funny, I'm still figuring things out, but everything is there. I I love being creative and I hate being bad at things. So Meg Loeks (29:24) Yeah. Sarah (29:25) I'm determined. I'm determined to make this look like the best website anyone has ever seen. Maybe not. I don't know. graphic design for me is actually fun. I I'm addicted to fonts. I don't know why. Sarah (29:38) I I am I have to be very careful when I like something because I can't like it a little bit. It becomes almost like an obsessive hobby. Yeah, remember Meg Loeks (29:44) All consuming, right? Yeah. Sarah (29:46) the I don't know if you remember the quilts. I went through a quilt phase and it lasted about five Meg Loeks (29:49) Mm, jas. Sarah (29:51) years. And I had like almost four hundred blankets. And then the problem is when that started to get popular, like I started seeing a lot of quilts in people's work, I was like, I'm not really interested in the quilts anymore. It's it's cool. Meg Loeks (30:02) I'm that same way. Meg Loeks (30:04) I'll have like photo series and stuff that I'll do and I love them. Like there's a reason behind them. But then Meg Loeks (30:09) if there's like a trend of any sort, I'm like, mm, nope, nope. I don't know why why I'm that way. Because I kinda I Sarah (30:14) I'm not seeing it. Meg Loeks (30:15) don't wish I don't want to be, but it th there's a part of me that's just like I well, what what are are are you a Okay, well my Sarah (30:19) You can't help it. As do you know what you're like what is your zodiac? I wanna know. Meg Loeks (30:25) My zodiac is Capricorn, but my Enneogram is four. Enneagram four. Yeah. That's why. What are you? Sarah (30:28) I'm a four too, so Capr that makes sense for a Capricorn. So Sarah (30:33) I don't like to tell a lot of people I'm a Gemini. because nobody likes Geminis. Meg Loeks (30:36) You're you're a Gemini. Sarah (30:38) But my rising sign is Aquarius and I have a lot of Aquarius energy. And my moon sign is Meg Loeks (30:43) yeah, you do. Sarah (30:44) a Pisces, which is like the big crybaby of the Zodiac. So I have a lot of that too. I try not to tell people that I'm a June Gemini and a Pisces moon because so is like Kanye West. And I'm like, please don't like on that level of crazy. Meg Loeks (30:57) You know, some of Meg Loeks (30:58) my closest friends are Geminis. I have a couple of them actually. Sarah (31:00) Yeah, it's Meg Loeks (31:01) Yeah, it's but I I'm a Sagittarius rising and a s yeah. And I'm a Scorpio Sarah (31:06) Sag my sister's a Sag. Sag was Meg Loeks (31:10) Scorpio moon, which is Sarah (31:12) my son is four real. Meg Loeks (31:13) yeah, and I love Scorpios 'cause I'm a Capricorn. My daughter's a s a Scorpio and she's very intense. Like and Sarah (31:15) I do too. My daughter's a Capricorn Sarah (31:20) Daisy's a Capricorn and she like she runs our house. She is very organized. She Meg Loeks (31:25) Hm, yeah, yeah. Sarah (31:28) is so smart, like very bossy sometimes, which I love. I I have Meg Loeks (31:31) Yeah, we can be bossy. Yeah. Sarah (31:33) a little bit of that in me too. So but I think it's just an older daughter thing for me. But it's it is weird how like it does work out. Sarah (31:40) The the Gemini for me, because I am not extroverted or the life of the party, and I would die if anyone were ever to mistake me for a social butterfly. Like, please, I'll never forget. Meg Loeks (31:49) Ha! Sarah (31:50) my God, I shouldn't say this either, but I was teaching a workshop in Oregon. And I'm not a bubbly person. I'm very feminine, but not like super bubbly. And they were like, let's do a real and we can do a pyramid on the beach. And I was like, I'm not gonna be the bottom. Meg Loeks (32:03) no. Sarah (32:04) You're shitty pyramid. I cannot do this. I love you guys. I'm not, I can't, it's too. Sarah (32:09) I two center but it's that's just the story of my life. Like I've always kind of been the weird kid, Meg Loeks (32:14) Hm. Sarah (32:15) you know what I mean? Like I love supporting other people doing whatever being it is bubbly. I love it, I'm here for it. I have friends that are I can't do it. I can't like I can't have fun in public. There's something wrong with me. I am missing like an inherent fun gene. But the Gemini for me I get is the duality. It's the two sides. Meg Loeks (32:33) Yeah. Sarah (32:34) So I'm very loyal. Sarah (32:35) Like I would never be two-faced. People get unfortunately, like I have no filter. And sometimes I'm like, you should hold back. You should not say everything that comes to mind. But the two sides I tend to be like that pensive, artistic, deep feeler. And then the other side is like this weird, sarcastic, kind of like goofy. I love hip hop music. Like there are things that people would never look at me and be like, she loves, you know, rap music or you know, it's just like little like little nuggets of Sarah (33:05) I can have a good time. I love to laugh. I really do. Not at other people. Usually like at myself. it's like that very don't mean to be funny, like say something kind of out there and then everyone laughs and you're like, that was it was funny, I guess. You know? It Meg Loeks (33:19) Mm. Yeah, yeah. Sarah (33:22) it works for photography. I will say like my energy with my clients, people feel very comfortable with me, which you think is great. Meg Loeks (33:28) Yeah, that's super important. Sarah (33:31) Yeah. Sarah (33:31) I can kind of like control the energy on my sessions, which I always tell Meg Loeks (33:34) Mm. Sarah (33:34) people, like we're in the business of people and photography is just extra. Like you have to be good Meg Loeks (33:39) Mm-hmm. Sarah (33:40) with people if you want to get a certain kind of photography. You know, it's this kind of photography, you have to be willing to like go wherever people need you to go with them. So, nope. I think that was my other random ADHD tangent for the day. I haven't had enough time. Meg Loeks (33:57) No, I like Meg Loeks (33:58) I like your tangents. So go off with with all your tangents. So I I really Sarah (34:00) Hmm. Meg Loeks (34:02) appreciate like everything you shared today and spending your time with me. And I love like getting to know more about you. Again, I feel like I know you because we've followed each other so long. We've watched our families grow. Sarah (34:12) I know I wish we were closer. Meg Loeks (34:15) I know, I know. And I remember years ago saying to you how badly I wanted you to photograph my family, which is still very much true. Sarah (34:25) I would Sarah (34:25) I would tell I would die. That would be intimidating, but a dream, an absolute no one can Meg Loeks (34:30) no, no it'll be a dream Sarah (34:31) your family like you, friend. are Meg Loeks (34:34) Well, I it it's still Meg Loeks (34:35) it's still very much a dream and we are due for a family session actually. I think the last one Sarah (34:39) Yeah, I'm sure. Meg Loeks (34:40) so years probably. Sarah (34:42) That's great. Well, you take so many beautiful photos. I honestly feel like I'll probably see with some educational thing here. There people have been reaching out and I'm starting to get back into that. So I Meg Loeks (34:52) That'd be amazing. Sarah (34:53) I'm starting to get over I love to teach. I think teaching is like that's one of the most fun aspects of being a photographer. I love to help other people. 'Cause I think if you wanna teach, you have to wanna help. So that's the easy part. It's like when there's big groups of people in your teaching that I've had to learn. Sarah (35:11) to overcome because I just especially like I said being ADHD, when you get in front of a room full of people, I tend to find the one face in the crowd that looks so bored. I don't know what is wrong with me. You know, like when you get up there and you're talking, everyone's smiling at you, you're being like the best feedback. And then there's that one person that just looks Meg Loeks (35:28) Yeah. You find that one. Sarah (35:30) really angry and I'm like And then my mind's like falling over itself. So I need to like maybe I always appoint somebody in the crowd and I'm like, you're gonna be my like Sarah (35:40) affirmation while I do this. Yes, please. Meg Loeks (35:41) Your go-to. I always Meg Loeks (35:43) I always look above their heads a little bit. Like, but that's what I'm a th Sarah (35:45) That's really smart. Meg Loeks (35:46) I'm a I'm a theater kid. So I like I grew up doing a lot of theater. And so that was a trick that we were taught was never actually really I I have a hard time looking when I'm up on stage people directly in the eyes. So I always kind of scan the tops of their heads. Sarah (35:59) It's smart. I should just knock my glasses Sarah (36:02) because then I wouldn't I had to teach at the reset conference one year. And I've there's a reason I They're so Meg Loeks (36:06) Hm. I love the reset conference, my favorite conference. Sarah (36:10) amazing, but we had just had Daisy. I of course always ended up like pregnant after agreeing to do these things, so I had to bring her in tow and we she had colic and I couldn't bring her on a plane. So we had to drive from Colorado to Chicago. It was like the worst weather. Sarah (36:25) She was crying. I thought I was gonna have to wear her on stage. I remember getting up there and just like leaking milk and like sweating and being like Meg Loeks (36:32) That feeling, yeah. Sarah (36:34) Yep. So after that and then I was asked to speak for Clickin' Moms, but then I got pregnant and I couldn't. It's like the story of my life. But I it was literally within like two weeks to my due date and it was in Florida. So it would have actually Meg Loeks (36:46) Yeah. Sarah (36:47) been like a a danger to go 'cause I tend to go early. But it's Meg Loeks (36:50) Mm. Sarah (36:51) otherwise, no, I'll definitely see you around. Like I'm Meg Loeks (36:55) Yeah. Yeah. Sarah (36:56) I'm doing better. Meg Loeks (36:57) I would love that. I would love that. Well again, thank you so much for spending your time with me today. And yeah, looking forward Sarah (37:05) You Meg Loeks (37:05) to to following along with your journey. Sarah (37:08) If you need anything, I'm always around. I'm always here. Meg Loeks (37:10) thank you, Sarah. Sarah (37:12) Thanks, friend.