WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.370 Matt: It is a marathon week for WordPress News. 00:00:02.370 --> 00:00:08.110 We're back with another live stream, this time, joined by Noel talk of human made. 00:00:08.410 --> 00:00:10.809 Noel, welcome to the WP Minute. 00:00:11.430 --> 00:00:12.180 Noel: Appreciate it, Matt. 00:00:12.909 --> 00:00:14.619 Matt: we all know the topic de jour. 00:00:14.719 --> 00:00:16.915 earlier this morning, I went for, a run. 00:00:16.974 --> 00:00:18.625 Well, I, I did a Peloton. 00:00:18.655 --> 00:00:18.924 Good for you. 00:00:18.924 --> 00:00:22.029 And then I went for a run I'm not afraid to admit all 00:00:22.029 --> 00:00:23.164 Noel: away from the WP Drama. 00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:26.179 Matt: Yeah, and I'm not afraid to admit that I jump on the peloton 00:00:26.179 --> 00:00:28.479 every, every now and again for the young kids in the crowd. 00:00:28.479 --> 00:00:30.849 I know they're all making fun of me by being on a stationary bike. 00:00:30.849 --> 00:00:33.519 I'm sorry, I'm not doing Brad Williams CrossFit. 00:00:34.249 --> 00:00:38.599 But, I came back and I was like, man, I, you know, lots of people are getting, 00:00:38.769 --> 00:00:43.399 you know, rightfully so, very emotional about what's happened with the WP Engine 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:45.550 out of V Automatic stuff and with Matt. 00:00:45.910 --> 00:00:50.929 But I'm not hearing, Solutions, I'm hearing like emotional hopes and dreams 00:00:51.379 --> 00:00:53.000 and a lot of like we should do this. 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:56.410 We should remove that Wouldn't wouldn't it be great to have 00:00:56.410 --> 00:00:57.349 like freedom and WordPress? 00:00:57.390 --> 00:01:01.769 But I'm not hearing how we get there and I'm not presenting a how we get there 00:01:01.780 --> 00:01:06.419 because I don't know either But maybe we can like hash some of this stuff out on 00:01:06.419 --> 00:01:10.760 today's live stream got questions Drop them in the, in the, in the question 00:01:10.760 --> 00:01:14.740 box, wherever you're watching this video before we get too deep into that stuff. 00:01:14.740 --> 00:01:17.400 Noel, what have you been up to with human made these days? 00:01:18.510 --> 00:01:22.760 Noel: so I, I have a bit of a mix of, work these days. 00:01:22.830 --> 00:01:28.395 so I, I guess many people do know that I am, majority of my 00:01:28.395 --> 00:01:31.875 time I'm out in Ukraine, where I do various humanitarian work. 00:01:32.335 --> 00:01:36.414 And then I've also evolved that to beyond humanitarian work. 00:01:36.735 --> 00:01:43.125 and yeah, it's been a, it's an amazing journey in terms of, I guess, continuing 00:01:43.125 --> 00:01:45.015 the WordPress ethos in many ways. 00:01:45.155 --> 00:01:47.865 because WordPress is open source. 00:01:47.875 --> 00:01:50.425 It's, it's benefited humanity in many ways. 00:01:50.475 --> 00:01:53.475 and then you try to extend that in other fields. 00:01:53.755 --> 00:01:56.205 but what's been, I guess, amazing out here is that 00:01:58.255 --> 00:02:00.675 yes, it's war, it's humanitarian crisis. 00:02:00.695 --> 00:02:04.385 And surprisingly, WordPress has also been a big part of the response here. 00:02:04.835 --> 00:02:08.625 many of the thousands of new charities that popped up are built on WordPress. 00:02:08.959 --> 00:02:13.829 Be it for prosthetic limbs, humanitarian goods, FPV drones, high risk 00:02:13.829 --> 00:02:16.980 evacuations, non profit media, and more. 00:02:17.060 --> 00:02:21.030 And it's, you know, it's powerful to know that the software you work on 00:02:21.060 --> 00:02:24.450 and that everybody on that, everybody else works on here too, has such an 00:02:24.450 --> 00:02:28.159 impact, it's software of humanity and it's a privilege to be a part of. 00:02:28.529 --> 00:02:32.199 And that's why, despite, you know, the WP drama, I think it's amazing 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:37.234 to be, you To be in the presence of contributors and community who keep going. 00:02:37.654 --> 00:02:41.504 And even, you know, today shipped the first iteration of WordPress 6. 00:02:41.534 --> 00:02:46.144 7 and WordPress humanity, this planet needs this kind of 00:02:46.144 --> 00:02:48.234 software at a fundamental level. 00:02:49.454 --> 00:02:49.744 Matt: Yeah. 00:02:49.764 --> 00:02:51.084 That last part is. 00:02:51.409 --> 00:02:52.239 is very important. 00:02:52.239 --> 00:02:56.860 It's something that is, that I 100 percent agree with because it goes 00:02:56.870 --> 00:03:01.340 beyond, and I think this stuff gets lost a lot in, in the discussion 00:03:01.340 --> 00:03:03.110 of how WordPress is being made. 00:03:03.110 --> 00:03:07.770 Like, we get into these little narrow, viewports of, oh, this is a 00:03:07.770 --> 00:03:13.310 blogging tool versus this is a web design tool versus this is a CMS. 00:03:13.890 --> 00:03:17.940 I mean, I see it as some of these points that you've just described, or 00:03:17.940 --> 00:03:25.005 like, This is software that impacts humanity at At various levels that 00:03:25.025 --> 00:03:29.785 aren't just the freelancer building hers, you know, web design business or 00:03:30.055 --> 00:03:35.145 you know, the school educate, the, the, the higher ed system that needs a 3000, 00:03:35.165 --> 00:03:38.085 you know, college CMS installation. 00:03:38.085 --> 00:03:40.005 Like this is for like humans. 00:03:40.045 --> 00:03:41.655 We need to get words out. 00:03:41.925 --> 00:03:46.195 We need to get structure content out for these hotspots that are happening. 00:03:46.275 --> 00:03:49.195 Might only be there for a month, six months, a year, but these are 00:03:49.195 --> 00:03:51.135 things that are very, very important. 00:03:51.165 --> 00:03:55.885 And, Yeah, I see WordPress as far beyond the viewports of 00:03:55.895 --> 00:03:58.915 freelancer or CMS kind of thing. 00:03:58.915 --> 00:04:03.155 what other, and you have, so you have human made and you have Altus, right? 00:04:03.445 --> 00:04:06.785 Let's frame what Altus is for the discussion today. 00:04:06.785 --> 00:04:08.435 Cause we will obviously be talking about WP. 00:04:08.435 --> 00:04:09.195 Noel: Yeah, a hundred percent. 00:04:09.445 --> 00:04:13.175 so human made and Altus both serve the enterprise. 00:04:13.235 --> 00:04:16.765 We try to give enterprise the best WordPress experience possible. 00:04:17.205 --> 00:04:21.495 that is as simple as it is, you know, and, and I think everything 00:04:21.495 --> 00:04:27.235 we've built out over the years, since 2011 and beyond really, has served 00:04:27.245 --> 00:04:32.305 enterprise and, you know, even when we departed the VIP program back then, 00:04:32.305 --> 00:04:36.605 it was because, you know, we didn't really see all the features we wanted. 00:04:36.625 --> 00:04:38.345 we wanted to try it ourselves also. 00:04:38.745 --> 00:04:41.700 And, you know, that gave us a really unique perspective that, you know, 00:04:42.030 --> 00:04:44.660 Compliments than the other players that are also doing enterprise. 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:47.500 And all of that is kind of coming together, where we now have to 00:04:47.500 --> 00:04:51.320 scale consortium, which is multiple, enterprise agencies coming together. 00:04:51.640 --> 00:04:55.710 so really just, you know, despite, the, the challenges you see in the economy 00:04:55.710 --> 00:05:00.810 today and, a lot of competition, a lot of ad spend, a lot of stimulus checks 00:05:00.810 --> 00:05:04.980 going to, you know, these headless composable CMSs and all the, all this 00:05:04.980 --> 00:05:10.250 other stuff where, you know, trying to provide, Just a great service platform, 00:05:10.640 --> 00:05:13.570 outcomes for enterprises across the globe. 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:16.190 Matt: Let's talk just briefly. 00:05:16.230 --> 00:05:19.540 Again, we're gonna, we're gonna get to the, to the, the topic of the day, but 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:23.670 let's talk about, the, the business side of WordPress agencies for a moment. 00:05:23.990 --> 00:05:26.800 I came back recently from WordCamp US. 00:05:26.860 --> 00:05:28.260 I believe your business partner was there. 00:05:28.700 --> 00:05:30.620 I think I saw him, going to the crowd. 00:05:30.620 --> 00:05:30.760 A 00:05:31.230 --> 00:05:32.200 Noel: lot of our team was there. 00:05:32.420 --> 00:05:32.680 Matt: Yeah. 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:34.130 I didn't get a chance to chat with him. 00:05:34.430 --> 00:05:35.760 but I've heard mixed things. 00:05:35.770 --> 00:05:37.785 I ran an agency for a decade, which was pretty good. 00:05:38.135 --> 00:05:40.835 Nearly a decade ago at this point, but, you know, running 00:05:40.835 --> 00:05:41.785 an agency was tough, man. 00:05:41.805 --> 00:05:43.565 It's, it's tough to run an agency. 00:05:43.565 --> 00:05:47.555 I, you know, I feel like you're always one paycheck away from bankruptcy, you 00:05:47.555 --> 00:05:48.615 know, getting paid from the client. 00:05:48.895 --> 00:05:50.805 and it's, it's, it's not an easy space. 00:05:50.805 --> 00:05:52.765 It's a fun space, but also not an easy space. 00:05:52.775 --> 00:05:53.945 What's the temperature. 00:05:54.425 --> 00:05:56.315 And you see, you're from a different vantage point. 00:05:56.345 --> 00:05:59.675 Like you have this global presence, but what's the temperature of 00:05:59.935 --> 00:06:03.585 agency space these days for, for delivering WordPress projects. 00:06:05.305 --> 00:06:07.535 Noel: Yeah, I'd say it's a, it's a mix of factors. 00:06:07.585 --> 00:06:11.905 I definitely spoke about this at, WordCamp Asia in terms of just 00:06:11.905 --> 00:06:13.435 the overall WordPress economy. 00:06:13.805 --> 00:06:19.105 I, I guess my, my most recent thought was the amount of. 00:06:20.210 --> 00:06:24.740 Like the ratio of sponsor space in terms of squared meters versus, you 00:06:24.740 --> 00:06:27.850 know, the, the, the net new amount of sites that are launched on WordPress 00:06:28.300 --> 00:06:33.480 is, it's probably at an all time high or all time low or anyway, just, there's, 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:37.070 it's just extremely competitive, in the space now, like it's, you know, we 00:06:37.070 --> 00:06:41.570 had our honeymoon phase, that was, you know, it was really steep growth curve. 00:06:41.810 --> 00:06:45.720 we've seen WordPress, market share, if we can call it that, you know, Robin. 00:06:46.060 --> 00:06:48.710 The mystical 43 percent plateau. 00:06:48.780 --> 00:06:52.680 so, you know, regardless if you believe in that number or not, it's, it's still, 00:06:52.800 --> 00:06:56.520 you know, you're still following a certain trend over years, which used to 00:06:56.530 --> 00:06:58.140 be very steep and now it's quite flat. 00:06:58.490 --> 00:06:59.740 there's a lot of competition. 00:06:59.750 --> 00:07:00.740 There's a lot of pressure. 00:07:00.790 --> 00:07:04.600 And, you know, we still believe that WordPress is probably one of the 00:07:04.640 --> 00:07:06.340 best solutions in enterprise today. 00:07:06.700 --> 00:07:10.410 but there's a lot of work that's needed around not only then selling 00:07:10.410 --> 00:07:11.810 ourselves, but also selling. 00:07:12.860 --> 00:07:16.490 Enterprise WordPress as a concept from a product marketing perspective. 00:07:16.940 --> 00:07:19.720 and then just the, the sort of challenges we face in the economy. 00:07:20.060 --> 00:07:25.480 you know, us was probably the fastest to kind of come out of challenging times 00:07:25.500 --> 00:07:27.780 and, and still that's not for sure. 00:07:28.110 --> 00:07:32.320 Europe is somewhat behind and then Asia is still lagging quite a bit. 00:07:32.680 --> 00:07:33.050 so. 00:07:33.530 --> 00:07:35.640 Yeah, it's a tough time to be in the game. 00:07:35.880 --> 00:07:37.000 I feel like we're learning a lot. 00:07:37.060 --> 00:07:37.970 we're having to adapt. 00:07:38.020 --> 00:07:41.370 you know, we're having to pick up skill sets that we didn't necessarily, or 00:07:41.370 --> 00:07:45.160 that we took for granted maybe 10 years ago, in terms of, you know, building 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:49.470 out a very comprehensive sales and marketing team or commercial team. 00:07:49.710 --> 00:07:52.070 and yeah, I'm very proud of, you know, how far we've come in that 00:07:52.070 --> 00:07:53.500 regard, but yeah, you're right. 00:07:53.500 --> 00:07:58.445 It's, it's a, it's a tough environment, but ultimately with a lot of the budgets, 00:07:58.945 --> 00:08:02.755 enterprise budgets, maybe being, you know, focused towards AI and other like 00:08:02.755 --> 00:08:07.905 emerging technology, do companies really want to hold on to large license costs 00:08:07.905 --> 00:08:12.265 and large maintenance costs of proprietary CMSs that do the same thing as WordPress? 00:08:12.685 --> 00:08:17.435 you know, like these are the, the kind of more macro things that I'd say we 00:08:17.435 --> 00:08:20.925 hold on to and where we see a lot of opportunity within the enterprise space. 00:08:21.880 --> 00:08:25.120 Matt: And when you say there's a lot of competition, I just want for clarity 00:08:25.120 --> 00:08:28.950 sake, is it competition like there's more WordPress agencies coming on board 00:08:28.950 --> 00:08:33.190 and there's, it's harder to sell amongst ourselves or are we getting external 00:08:33.190 --> 00:08:38.190 pressures and competition from other CMSs and platforms throughout the world? 00:08:38.510 --> 00:08:44.090 Noel: Probably a bit of both, but I, I'd probably look to how is WordPress 00:08:44.100 --> 00:08:45.800 marketed to the rest of the world. 00:08:45.800 --> 00:08:47.740 So Gartner and Forrester still don't. 00:08:48.040 --> 00:08:50.630 They still haven't opened up the category of WordPress. 00:08:50.630 --> 00:08:53.510 They haven't, they don't understand WordPress as a 00:08:53.540 --> 00:08:54.910 open source piece of software. 00:08:55.130 --> 00:08:56.610 They understand it or garden. 00:08:56.620 --> 00:09:00.940 Yeah, they both understand it as WordPress VIP, which makes it obviously 00:09:00.950 --> 00:09:03.790 like quite challenging in that regard for, the broader ecosystem. 00:09:04.300 --> 00:09:09.770 but yeah, I, there's, there's still, There's, there's been a massive 00:09:09.770 --> 00:09:13.200 marketing push from the whole composable headless kind of space. 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.280 And then some of these players like Adobe and psych or creating 00:09:16.280 --> 00:09:19.980 these more comprehensive suites with personalization, AB testing, 00:09:19.980 --> 00:09:21.250 customer journey orchestration. 00:09:21.550 --> 00:09:26.040 so that it's, it feels like a much larger product whereby CMS 00:09:26.050 --> 00:09:27.410 is just a sub, subset of that. 00:09:27.780 --> 00:09:31.100 And I guess, you know, a large part of the economy went through. 00:09:31.545 --> 00:09:36.485 Either this, you know, there's large all in one suite and then got disrupted 00:09:36.485 --> 00:09:42.245 by the headless composable ads and players that came into the space. 00:09:42.665 --> 00:09:47.225 And we've never had a very strong product marketing position towards that. 00:09:47.225 --> 00:09:52.025 So we, we, we interface with the market where we can, but it's not that 00:09:52.025 --> 00:09:58.035 enterprise WordPress is just receiving inbound leads as much as it should. 00:09:59.610 --> 00:10:02.800 Matt: Lots of times, we're, we're wrapped, or at least, you know, 00:10:02.800 --> 00:10:05.400 some of the conversations I have, we're wrapped up in, Ah, we're 00:10:05.400 --> 00:10:08.790 losing ground to Wix and Webflow. 00:10:08.790 --> 00:10:10.800 Is that a thing in the enterprise? 00:10:10.810 --> 00:10:12.050 Well, maybe not the Wix side of it. 00:10:12.160 --> 00:10:15.530 I don't know, maybe with Wix Studio you see it, but, Is Webflow a thing? 00:10:15.540 --> 00:10:16.750 Is Framer a thing? 00:10:16.750 --> 00:10:21.255 Like, when you're in the enterprise space, Aside from the, we'll build 00:10:21.255 --> 00:10:25.495 something for you with a headless, with headless components, is there another 00:10:25.745 --> 00:10:30.025 player in the ring who's more of a nameplate that people can identify to? 00:10:31.140 --> 00:10:34.530 Noel: I'd say it's quite fragmented once you pass, you know, Acquia 00:10:34.540 --> 00:10:35.980 slash Drupal and WordPress. 00:10:36.420 --> 00:10:40.820 it also depends if, or are you, are you competing for the primary CMS? 00:10:41.180 --> 00:10:43.590 Are you competing for the secondary CMS? 00:10:43.870 --> 00:10:47.640 And that's where I'd say, you know, Webflow and Wix, Wix Enterprise, like 00:10:47.640 --> 00:10:49.490 really nice page and well put together. 00:10:49.490 --> 00:10:50.660 It's, it's good positioning. 00:10:50.990 --> 00:10:51.670 HubSpot. 00:10:51.690 --> 00:10:53.980 Pages or HubSpot CMS. 00:10:53.980 --> 00:10:54.740 I'm not sure what it's called. 00:10:54.980 --> 00:10:57.640 That's a very popular secondary CMS. 00:10:58.000 --> 00:10:59.340 so there's a lot of players in there. 00:10:59.640 --> 00:11:03.870 The more comprehensive, Hey, this, this can be your primary web experience. 00:11:04.060 --> 00:11:06.460 that's, that's a difficult conversation. 00:11:06.460 --> 00:11:13.160 And also we haven't as an industry come up with a very comprehensive Sort of list 00:11:13.190 --> 00:11:18.580 or a marketplace that's very interoperable with all the enterprise tech. 00:11:19.140 --> 00:11:21.520 And sure, we have integrations for Salesforce. 00:11:21.540 --> 00:11:23.130 We have integrations here. 00:11:23.130 --> 00:11:26.530 We can use APIs to connect to various things, but we haven't productized 00:11:27.830 --> 00:11:31.460 that marketplace layer, around enterprise specifically to say, 00:11:32.280 --> 00:11:36.320 here's your, you WordPress project. 00:11:36.340 --> 00:11:39.000 a starter kit, that is on wordpress. 00:11:39.010 --> 00:11:40.210 org or somewhere else. 00:11:41.495 --> 00:11:45.615 Matt: I don't want to, skip over the primary CMS versus secondary CMS 00:11:45.915 --> 00:11:48.975 because I think it's important that people understand this and, and help 00:11:48.975 --> 00:11:51.085 me understand this because if I'm thinking of it the way that, I am, 00:11:51.395 --> 00:11:53.395 I want you to, to, to clarify it. 00:11:53.415 --> 00:11:57.405 So when I was selling enterprise hosting at Pagely, for example, many years ago, 00:11:57.455 --> 00:12:02.185 WordPress was a secondary CMS because some of the brands I was playing with, they 00:12:02.185 --> 00:12:04.015 were like, Hey, we're a marketing team. 00:12:04.545 --> 00:12:07.335 They won't let us touch the big CMS over there. 00:12:07.535 --> 00:12:10.645 We need something we can move faster with and WordPress is 00:12:10.645 --> 00:12:11.775 a great solution for that. 00:12:11.945 --> 00:12:16.255 Therefore, that is the secondary CMS in this massive enterprise that we have. 00:12:16.555 --> 00:12:17.535 Is that a fair statement? 00:12:17.545 --> 00:12:20.315 Secondary being like, ah, teams can move faster with this? 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:21.870 Noel: Yeah, that's extremely fair. 00:12:21.920 --> 00:12:24.130 it's the pragmatic cheap solution. 00:12:24.170 --> 00:12:25.640 Hey, we don't have that much budget. 00:12:25.710 --> 00:12:28.610 and it's, and it's been a great marketing strategy for WordPress. 00:12:28.630 --> 00:12:29.520 Get your foot in the door. 00:12:29.955 --> 00:12:34.045 and then grow from there, you know, try to either grow vertically up, you 00:12:34.045 --> 00:12:36.875 know, in, in this particular department where you are in enterprise or grow 00:12:36.875 --> 00:12:40.005 horizontally because other teams here about how this has worked and there's 00:12:40.005 --> 00:12:41.665 ready and approved vendor and procurement. 00:12:41.915 --> 00:12:44.115 so then you're able to grow from there and we've, you know, certainly 00:12:44.195 --> 00:12:49.365 made those experiences, but that is a bottoms up approach to, which is a hacky 00:12:49.375 --> 00:12:51.355 way because we're always low budget. 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:56.590 we, we don't have global spend that's, you know, being used, for all agencies. 00:12:56.840 --> 00:13:01.010 and that's very different than an Adobe that will come in and maybe target 00:13:01.020 --> 00:13:05.440 everyone, host dinners, invite you to the conferences, and, you know, fair play. 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:08.010 There's, there's, there's nothing wrong with all these things, but it 00:13:08.010 --> 00:13:10.465 is a very impressive go to market strategy then versus our more, 00:13:10.515 --> 00:13:12.595 Scrappy, let's say, approach to things. 00:13:13.425 --> 00:13:16.555 Matt: Sounds a little bit like the sales team at WP Engine when I was 00:13:16.555 --> 00:13:18.265 selling against them back in the day. 00:13:18.265 --> 00:13:23.325 Pagely, you know, I've always looked and we'll start to pivot over to 00:13:23.325 --> 00:13:27.065 having the discussion about, of course, the stuff happening this week. 00:13:27.345 --> 00:13:30.755 Pagely, Bootstrap Company, of course everyone, well not everyone, but I 00:13:30.755 --> 00:13:33.595 guess folks who've been in the game long enough know that Josh Strebel, 00:13:33.595 --> 00:13:35.055 Sally Strebel, both started the company. 00:13:35.330 --> 00:13:38.450 bootstrap, no outside investors, we were very much against the 00:13:38.450 --> 00:13:42.860 grain of, you know, the typical big, hosting providers out there. 00:13:42.860 --> 00:13:47.780 They eventually sold to, GoDaddy, but I competed with WP Engine quite often, 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:54.280 you know, with clients, and it was very, a very typical, enterprise sales, 00:13:54.330 --> 00:13:55.670 that, that I was going up against. 00:13:55.670 --> 00:13:59.100 They would come in, they would come, big clients would tell me, Hey, 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:00.810 WP Engine's willing to fly out. 00:14:00.810 --> 00:14:02.310 They're willing to demo to us. 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:06.730 they're going to undercut your contract by 30, 40%. 00:14:06.730 --> 00:14:10.910 these were things that, you know, a cash strap business, not strap, but a bootstrap 00:14:10.910 --> 00:14:12.950 business couldn't really compete with. 00:14:12.980 --> 00:14:15.610 And WP Engine was, and maybe still is these days. 00:14:15.610 --> 00:14:16.180 It's been a while. 00:14:16.470 --> 00:14:18.490 yeah, typical sales, enterprise sales. 00:14:18.540 --> 00:14:22.500 And, Lots of money, involved on that side of the spectrum and WP Engine 00:14:23.400 --> 00:14:27.310 is nowhere near like the Adobes and the Microsofts of the world that 00:14:27.310 --> 00:14:28.620 will go out and sell this stuff. 00:14:29.120 --> 00:14:32.180 My tweet this morning, how much will it cost to clone and maintain 00:14:32.180 --> 00:14:34.240 a community driven dot org mirror? 00:14:34.410 --> 00:14:36.190 How do we get mass adoption? 00:14:36.190 --> 00:14:38.240 Because don't forget, wordpress. 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:42.380 org is hand coded into the, to the bowels of wordpress. 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:44.500 Which host will support it, right? 00:14:44.540 --> 00:14:47.450 If all of a sudden there's the utopian world and all of a sudden there's 00:14:47.450 --> 00:14:51.030 another mirror out there that we can use, will all the hosts support it? 00:14:51.250 --> 00:14:52.740 in the world that we know these days. 00:14:52.920 --> 00:14:54.980 And what's that long term sustainability? 00:14:55.340 --> 00:14:57.410 WP Engine is seemingly about to do it, right? 00:14:57.410 --> 00:15:00.050 They've just said that, you know, people can now update plugins. 00:15:00.290 --> 00:15:02.140 How does their iteration evolve? 00:15:02.390 --> 00:15:07.320 does it become a HubSpot style marketplace and only available to WordPress Engine 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:09.780 sites or WP Engine sites long term? 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:11.230 Is it a true marketplace? 00:15:11.230 --> 00:15:15.050 Like, what is it that WP Engine is going to do with their mirror, 00:15:15.220 --> 00:15:19.030 loosely speaking, How can we get this WordPress independence? 00:15:19.070 --> 00:15:22.180 Is it even possible with all the stuff that people are asking for? 00:15:22.180 --> 00:15:27.330 So I say all that, to hand the mic over back to you and say, what 00:15:27.330 --> 00:15:29.510 are your thoughts on a mirror? 00:15:30.950 --> 00:15:31.430 The answer is yes. 00:15:31.660 --> 00:15:31.910 Click. 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:34.280 Noel: After 40 questions. 00:15:34.350 --> 00:15:34.590 Yeah. 00:15:34.940 --> 00:15:41.270 I'd say there's so many ways to approach this, because like the, the bottom up 00:15:41.270 --> 00:15:46.170 approach in terms of, Hey, we just need a mirror because, The mirror on the WP. 00:15:46.180 --> 00:15:47.390 org is being blocked to us. 00:15:47.410 --> 00:15:48.990 Like that's, that's one side of the story. 00:15:49.380 --> 00:15:53.540 and that just doesn't seem like the big play. 00:15:53.540 --> 00:15:56.840 And when, when I tweeted my thread the other day, it was really about the kind 00:15:56.840 --> 00:16:03.350 of the top down approach to this, where it's, it's not necessarily how you build 00:16:03.350 --> 00:16:08.290 it, but why you build it, because doing this properly isn't about a marketplace, 00:16:08.290 --> 00:16:12.800 it's about power and power doesn't belong to the person who forks the software. 00:16:13.210 --> 00:16:17.640 But rather to those that forked the community and a marketplace that does 00:16:17.640 --> 00:16:24.760 this effectively and has the right, let's say, has the right, marketplace 00:16:24.760 --> 00:16:33.190 slash community around, extensions, plugins, themes, Premium functionality, 00:16:33.230 --> 00:16:37.740 potentially, giving people credibility and authority for various work they do. 00:16:37.740 --> 00:16:42.590 So you have profiles, that can start leading into, premium 00:16:42.590 --> 00:16:44.190 mechanics in terms of getting paid. 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:48.240 If you're various, if you have pro, upgrades and things like that 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:51.220 available to you, because obviously you're a lot closer to the customer. 00:16:51.220 --> 00:16:52.615 a platform like that can lead to that. 00:16:52.615 --> 00:16:57.065 can, can act as organic acquisition, WP engine does spend 00:16:57.075 --> 00:16:58.715 a lot of money on paid search. 00:16:59.035 --> 00:17:03.165 so, you know, part of this can offset, and this is not really only about, 00:17:03.225 --> 00:17:06.705 WP engine in this regard, you know, there's various players, even wordpress. 00:17:06.705 --> 00:17:08.895 com, you know, created their own marketplace. 00:17:09.225 --> 00:17:13.035 They've, they've brought these pieces in and they're able to create a better 00:17:13.035 --> 00:17:16.245 customer journey for some of these customers that only know wordpress. 00:17:16.245 --> 00:17:19.065 com, instead of having to, you know, faff around with going on. 00:17:19.265 --> 00:17:21.435 org, how does this work and how does that work? 00:17:21.765 --> 00:17:24.575 This is kind of the challenge with this whole ecosystem. 00:17:24.575 --> 00:17:28.375 and then the sort of other, challenge to all of this is even if you go 00:17:28.375 --> 00:17:34.055 ahead and do all these things to what end, are you trying to create a wp. 00:17:34.065 --> 00:17:41.035 org, pure competitor, or are you trying to service specific verticals, out there? 00:17:41.045 --> 00:17:44.865 So if you go on Wix or you go on Squarespace, Guaranteed to go 00:17:44.865 --> 00:17:49.255 after hairdressers, anything with booking appointments and all that. 00:17:49.575 --> 00:17:54.335 Like they, they have crafted a journey for that, that this is their strategic 00:17:54.525 --> 00:17:59.695 goal, is to take on as much revenue or as much share of the revenue 00:17:59.695 --> 00:18:04.655 you generate on, on your websites for your SMB, for your business, 00:18:04.955 --> 00:18:07.105 so that they can be a part of that. 00:18:07.555 --> 00:18:12.595 Now, likewise, Can you know, something like WP engine do something like that too? 00:18:13.455 --> 00:18:14.655 It's quite far for them. 00:18:14.655 --> 00:18:20.425 They don't, they don't promote themselves as going after any vertical or niche. 00:18:20.855 --> 00:18:24.825 I guess the closest thing would be flywheel, which goes after designers. 00:18:25.085 --> 00:18:30.115 So potentially you have an MVP there that has a lot of premium solutions, 00:18:30.165 --> 00:18:34.105 that are just added on to, the, the flywheel subscription every month, 00:18:34.335 --> 00:18:37.215 potentially to taking on transactions at some point, whatever that may be. 00:18:37.515 --> 00:18:40.785 you could easily see a world, I guess, come together like that. 00:18:40.785 --> 00:18:47.345 But the question is, in my mind is, are you trying, which customer 00:18:47.345 --> 00:18:48.835 segment are you going after? 00:18:49.705 --> 00:18:55.945 And you know, to what end, because what WP Engine has achieved probably in my mind, 00:18:55.945 --> 00:19:01.345 even with the 400 million, contribution or not is they've probably done very well at 00:19:01.345 --> 00:19:03.905 the customer journey of WordPress hosting. 00:19:04.320 --> 00:19:07.680 and WordPress hosting, whatever that may be, and maybe have even reduced 00:19:07.710 --> 00:19:10.920 churn for the overall ecosystem by providing a better experience there. 00:19:11.300 --> 00:19:11.700 so 00:19:13.730 --> 00:19:17.150 what, what comes next to, to what end would you create a marketplace? 00:19:17.450 --> 00:19:23.380 Is it to capitalize on the webmaster, the web builder, or is it the business owner? 00:19:23.860 --> 00:19:24.140 Matt: Yeah. 00:19:24.830 --> 00:19:29.945 And I, I, I think many things have come out of this event, which even 00:19:29.945 --> 00:19:33.675 I didn't know, having been in this space for many, many years, but 00:19:33.675 --> 00:19:38.115 certainly like the, the, You know, the toothpick holding up the whole 00:19:38.115 --> 00:19:40.465 industry, which is, which is dot org. 00:19:40.985 --> 00:19:44.925 It can quickly get pulled out and really coming to light that Matt is 00:19:44.935 --> 00:19:47.195 funding it and, and, and controlling it. 00:19:47.465 --> 00:19:50.875 You can either look at that as altruistic and be able to like spend 00:19:50.885 --> 00:19:55.285 all this money, but we just don't know what is involved there, like 00:19:55.285 --> 00:19:57.185 what that infrastructure looks like. 00:19:57.185 --> 00:19:59.910 I saw somebody that was Actively cloning it. 00:19:59.910 --> 00:20:04.210 I saw a tweet fly by where they were at like 600 gigs of like X 00:20:04.210 --> 00:20:08.570 amount of percentage cloned and just the sheer size of this repo, never 00:20:08.570 --> 00:20:13.620 mind the traffic hitting it, like the costs are pretty staggering. 00:20:13.620 --> 00:20:19.130 I'd imagine for just a one year of maintenance, let alone like 00:20:19.130 --> 00:20:23.960 sustaining it infinitely, you have a thought on like what The size of that 00:20:23.970 --> 00:20:27.370 infrastructure and what that would run, somebody to independently No idea. 00:20:27.370 --> 00:20:28.030 That's not my world. 00:20:28.380 --> 00:20:28.570 Yeah. 00:20:28.700 --> 00:20:29.060 Obviously, 00:20:29.060 --> 00:20:31.710 Noel: I think it is, it is extremely expensive. 00:20:31.730 --> 00:20:35.600 And, you know, Matt did share some numbers and, you know, props, obviously, 00:20:35.600 --> 00:20:37.640 to him to, for maintaining all that. 00:20:37.640 --> 00:20:45.030 But, I'm, I'm assuming that if you want to achieve some sort of, if your ambition 00:20:45.030 --> 00:20:49.250 is towards Wix and the square spaces of this world, then this investment 00:20:49.250 --> 00:20:53.860 may make sense for, a new fall to go daddy, WP engine, whoever that may be. 00:20:54.260 --> 00:20:59.850 you know, we've, we've already moved on from the C panel hosting or 00:20:59.850 --> 00:21:01.260 before it was just the FTP hosting. 00:21:01.260 --> 00:21:02.580 Then we had the C panel hosting. 00:21:02.990 --> 00:21:05.730 Now we have to sort of managed where you have a nice UI, you have 00:21:05.730 --> 00:21:07.030 staging, you have all these things. 00:21:07.320 --> 00:21:12.060 and now we really need more solutions than tools because we're just kind of 00:21:12.060 --> 00:21:14.160 there and this whole note, no code. 00:21:15.195 --> 00:21:21.235 Movement is obviously working for a company like Wix that is able 00:21:21.235 --> 00:21:23.465 to push over a billion in revenue. 00:21:26.385 --> 00:21:28.845 Matt: The, you know, I think I talked about this in my live 00:21:28.845 --> 00:21:29.885 stream yesterday with Mark. 00:21:30.315 --> 00:21:35.345 There had to be something that Matt saw at WP Engine happening. 00:21:35.955 --> 00:21:39.455 That caused this and it was either he's literally telling the truth 00:21:39.455 --> 00:21:42.495 and saying man I've been asking for years about this commercial deal. 00:21:42.665 --> 00:21:43.845 It's a whole other discussion. 00:21:43.845 --> 00:21:49.245 That was that wasn't something I knew was actively happening Yeah, I mean we all 00:21:49.245 --> 00:21:49.655 Noel: found out. 00:21:50.055 --> 00:21:52.715 Matt: Yeah, we kind of all found out about that That's like another discussion 00:21:52.715 --> 00:21:55.805 whether or not you agree with that model or not So it was either like he was 00:21:55.805 --> 00:22:00.405 literally chasing these these guys for four years and he just you know Yeah, 00:22:00.455 --> 00:22:03.755 he's just like, I'm going to just put you on blast at the biggest event on the U. 00:22:03.755 --> 00:22:03.905 S. 00:22:03.905 --> 00:22:04.615 side of things. 00:22:04.885 --> 00:22:06.525 And, I don't care what happens. 00:22:06.535 --> 00:22:11.605 It was either that or maybe he knew they were going to do something like 00:22:11.605 --> 00:22:15.835 a cloned repo and create their own marketplace and he didn't like that. 00:22:16.175 --> 00:22:19.795 Or they were going IPO and he was like, there's no way you're doing 00:22:19.795 --> 00:22:23.845 IPO without me doing it first, so I'm going to put you on blast here. 00:22:24.115 --> 00:22:26.085 There had to be something happening there. 00:22:27.695 --> 00:22:31.115 Years ago, I, I theorized that, HubSpot would buy WP Engine. 00:22:31.150 --> 00:22:33.875 I I thought the HubSpot would be a great, oh, she liked 00:22:33.875 --> 00:22:34.295 Noel: that idea. 00:22:34.545 --> 00:22:36.885 Matt: acquisition for, for WP Engine. 00:22:36.975 --> 00:22:38.115 I thought that's where they were gonna go. 00:22:38.475 --> 00:22:43.515 but I, I can imagine a world where if out of all the hosts, I think somebody 00:22:43.515 --> 00:22:47.835 who's gonna create that HubSpot Marketplace style, it would be WP Engine. 00:22:48.735 --> 00:22:53.695 And that is pretty scary, I think, like, because I think that kind of 00:22:53.705 --> 00:22:58.065 thinker at, the enterprise software space, they're not thinking about data 00:22:58.065 --> 00:22:59.895 portability and moving your site around. 00:23:00.205 --> 00:23:03.525 They're going to launch a marketplace and it's going to be 00:23:03.675 --> 00:23:05.875 vendor lock in for their stuff. 00:23:06.425 --> 00:23:10.085 And I think maybe Matt thrust this on to us a little bit faster. 00:23:10.245 --> 00:23:14.125 Like, this could be something bad that we don't realize now. 00:23:14.125 --> 00:23:16.445 We're all cheering for WP Engine to, like, save the day. 00:23:16.755 --> 00:23:20.115 And then, like, a year from now, we might be like, Holy shit, they built 00:23:20.115 --> 00:23:22.005 a marketplace that people can't leave. 00:23:22.605 --> 00:23:26.355 Or get software from if they went to GoDaddy or another host. 00:23:26.755 --> 00:23:27.445 That's my question. 00:23:27.835 --> 00:23:32.075 Theory on this stuff any thoughts on like what happens to these 00:23:32.075 --> 00:23:35.335 marketplaces for players who can support it like a WP engine 00:23:36.235 --> 00:23:38.445 Noel: Again, it comes back to the audience. 00:23:38.445 --> 00:23:41.495 Like what would I be a user of this marketplace? 00:23:41.495 --> 00:23:45.935 Maybe not Maybe I'd still be using WP org and maybe a lot of other people 00:23:45.935 --> 00:23:50.785 would I think it's the expression of WordPress here in a way that's not 00:23:50.785 --> 00:23:54.635 necessarily WordPress anymore Tumblr is a very good example of that, right? 00:23:54.635 --> 00:23:57.255 Like it's social platform built on WordPress. 00:23:57.555 --> 00:24:01.745 it doesn't compete with anything you are or I do on a day to day basis. 00:24:02.075 --> 00:24:03.405 and I think that's amazing. 00:24:03.695 --> 00:24:07.905 so if the, you know, if you really go deep into a marketplace, you 00:24:07.905 --> 00:24:11.325 probably really need to know what your customer journeys are, who your 00:24:11.325 --> 00:24:13.105 audiences are, what the outcomes are. 00:24:13.575 --> 00:24:19.285 it's that that's, to me, that's almost expanding the market as opposed 00:24:20.350 --> 00:24:28.160 cannibalizing it, I'd say the more altruistic side of, you know, this 00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:31.910 discussion is, I wish that, you know, coming back to the very beginning of 00:24:32.390 --> 00:24:35.920 WordPress for humanity, everything, I guess I wish that hyper profitable 00:24:35.930 --> 00:24:40.400 companies would see this opportunity or rather privilege, to be part of 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:43.670 something greater, to be involved in the discussions, be thought leaders 00:24:43.670 --> 00:24:47.550 themselves, because the world is just in a challenging spot and, you Open source 00:24:47.550 --> 00:24:52.540 projects like WordPress do their part in supporting a better future for all. 00:24:52.960 --> 00:24:57.420 and if WP engine would be a larger part of this, I think it would be a net positive 00:24:57.420 --> 00:25:02.430 regardless of, you know, where marketplace aspirations go and what they end up doing. 00:25:02.790 --> 00:25:09.090 it's, yeah, I, I don't know how much of automatic jetpack competes 00:25:09.090 --> 00:25:11.470 with WP engines, business stuff. 00:25:11.860 --> 00:25:15.900 You know, WordPress VIP doesn't compete with lower tier Bluehost things. 00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:20.370 There's, there's just a lot of market to go after, if things are done properly 00:25:20.370 --> 00:25:25.320 and in many places, WordPress doesn't necessarily need to be the end solution. 00:25:25.520 --> 00:25:28.560 It can be a hybrid where it's part of the solution, but it's not 00:25:28.560 --> 00:25:30.170 necessarily the thing at the forefront. 00:25:31.900 --> 00:25:34.860 Matt: Let's say somebody launches a clone of WordPress. 00:25:34.860 --> 00:25:35.090 org. 00:25:35.090 --> 00:25:35.340 Yeah, 00:25:35.370 --> 00:25:37.740 Noel: a pure clone, like going after us. 00:25:38.020 --> 00:25:39.940 Matt: Yep, they're all coming after us. 00:25:40.280 --> 00:25:45.800 from your perspective, what does it take for that to even build momentum? 00:25:46.170 --> 00:25:50.100 Is it, well, we just have to install this, they have to get people to install this 00:25:50.150 --> 00:25:55.980 plug in to activate their mirror, and that would allow somebody to start installing 00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:58.050 stuff from an independent source. 00:25:59.380 --> 00:26:01.530 How does that momentum even happen? 00:26:01.530 --> 00:26:03.210 If somebody is like, nope, I'm going to do it. 00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:07.060 I'm all in, I'm going to clone three terabytes and I got plenty 00:26:07.060 --> 00:26:09.960 of Bitcoin to power this thing for the next couple of years. 00:26:10.300 --> 00:26:11.970 how does momentum happen? 00:26:11.970 --> 00:26:13.400 Like, how does that even pause? 00:26:13.450 --> 00:26:15.370 How was it even possible from your perspective? 00:26:15.690 --> 00:26:18.840 Noel: I think you have to incentivize the premium plugin developers by 00:26:18.840 --> 00:26:20.210 giving them a higher commission. 00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:23.270 I mean, that's, that's probably what, what it is. 00:26:23.360 --> 00:26:26.700 you saw that in crypto to a certain extent where OpenSea was 00:26:26.710 --> 00:26:29.160 like the big, NFT marketplace. 00:26:29.520 --> 00:26:34.060 And then a number of marketplaces did what was called a vampire attack by 00:26:34.090 --> 00:26:37.170 essentially Because everything's visible. 00:26:37.450 --> 00:26:41.240 You can see all the wallets and how much they transacted with OpenSea. 00:26:41.250 --> 00:26:42.880 So you could give them a certain amount of tokens. 00:26:43.220 --> 00:26:47.530 And if they did a certain level of activity on their platform too, those 00:26:47.530 --> 00:26:49.190 tokens would get released and all that. 00:26:49.190 --> 00:26:49.930 And it was good money. 00:26:49.990 --> 00:26:52.360 and it gave them enough time to play around and potentially 00:26:52.360 --> 00:26:53.660 like the new platform more. 00:26:54.110 --> 00:26:58.070 so I, I think, you know, these kind of hostile takeovers, which 00:26:58.070 --> 00:27:00.230 is what you're asking about. 00:27:00.530 --> 00:27:02.590 I, I think has to come down to. 00:27:03.165 --> 00:27:04.815 Two things, money or attention. 00:27:05.365 --> 00:27:09.925 And attention probably ultimately leads to Still ego or money. 00:27:10.325 --> 00:27:13.585 so it's going to be, it's going to be pretty primal things, I think. 00:27:14.325 --> 00:27:14.595 Matt: Yeah. 00:27:14.595 --> 00:27:18.495 And, and attention is like one of the hardest things that already exists in, in 00:27:18.495 --> 00:27:20.335 the open source world of WordPress, right? 00:27:20.335 --> 00:27:23.885 Like I've got this idea, I opened up a ticket, where is 00:27:23.885 --> 00:27:25.695 everybody to support this idea? 00:27:25.775 --> 00:27:29.585 I have to, you know, to bake into WordPress core or to bake into Gutenberg. 00:27:29.585 --> 00:27:34.035 Like we already struggle with that kind of backing and support, you 00:27:34.035 --> 00:27:36.185 know, from a community driven. 00:27:37.135 --> 00:27:40.675 Is it still a community driven project in your eyes? 00:27:41.960 --> 00:27:42.950 Noel: Yeah, absolutely. 00:27:43.180 --> 00:27:44.840 I, I, I wouldn't see why not. 00:27:45.140 --> 00:27:45.810 yeah, absolutely. 00:27:46.800 --> 00:27:49.550 Matt: I said yesterday, I've said it before, but I said, I said it again 00:27:49.550 --> 00:27:54.060 yesterday, most recently, that I, I think this other, this moment of ripping the 00:27:54.060 --> 00:28:01.080 band aid off that Matt has done is clearly making us say that if you're voting for 00:28:01.080 --> 00:28:04.150 WordPress, you're also voting for Matt. 00:28:05.050 --> 00:28:08.020 Unequivocally, like this is, this is, he's in. 00:28:08.020 --> 00:28:08.090 Yeah, absolutely. 00:28:09.580 --> 00:28:14.890 Yes, like yeah, you're part of this is with him so That moving forward. 00:28:14.890 --> 00:28:19.360 I think we all have to realize that fair statement your thoughts 00:28:20.630 --> 00:28:23.480 Noel: Mmm Yeah, good question 00:28:25.190 --> 00:28:28.120 Matt: You you can say pass if you don't want to 00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:34.870 Noel: know I like it's I I Think you know, I think he's admitted himself that you 00:28:34.870 --> 00:28:40.175 know, there may have been better ways to communicate all this But ultimately, I, 00:28:41.095 --> 00:28:46.085 like, I think his vision, throughout the years and his perseverance and, you know, 00:28:46.085 --> 00:28:47.625 saying, Hey, we're gonna give back a lot. 00:28:47.645 --> 00:28:52.105 And, the amount of time that automatic has contributed and amount of things 00:28:52.105 --> 00:28:56.065 they've sort of pushed has been a net positive for this growth. 00:28:56.065 --> 00:29:00.685 Like, I don't, I don't think we'd be in double digit numbers without him. 00:29:01.105 --> 00:29:01.515 so. 00:29:02.930 --> 00:29:04.180 credit where it's due. 00:29:04.280 --> 00:29:09.210 you know, does that mean that it's a pass on everything for the future? 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:11.200 Not necessarily. 00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:13.350 I think it's, you know, it should be a discussion. 00:29:13.460 --> 00:29:15.480 I think, you know, we're at the size where there's a lot of 00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:17.090 smart minds inside the community. 00:29:17.430 --> 00:29:18.630 you know, Yoast wrote about it. 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:21.170 He's, you know, clearly has a lot of good ideas. 00:29:21.170 --> 00:29:25.310 There was a project that Morton had put together on WP Governance, that 00:29:25.310 --> 00:29:27.090 was, you know, really, really good. 00:29:27.530 --> 00:29:30.970 So there's a lot of ingredients out there, I, I, I think that 00:29:31.790 --> 00:29:33.010 bring us to the next level. 00:29:33.210 --> 00:29:37.630 and being able to try and pull those together in a way that is, is almost like 00:29:37.630 --> 00:29:41.710 the, the, the new layer of community for such a large project, I, I think would 00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:43.810 be very beneficial to its longevity. 00:29:45.270 --> 00:29:47.100 Matt: I'm going to highlight two questions or two comments 00:29:47.100 --> 00:29:48.100 that came through the chat. 00:29:48.810 --> 00:29:51.020 Webologic says, I think clarity is important. 00:29:51.020 --> 00:29:54.670 It can't just be down to whether or not you trigger Matt on an off day. 00:29:54.770 --> 00:29:55.290 100%. 00:29:55.590 --> 00:29:56.340 Nomad skateboarding. 00:29:56.340 --> 00:29:58.620 People are confusing open source with altruism. 00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:00.710 Open source only means the licensing on the code. 00:30:00.710 --> 00:30:03.770 It doesn't mean community led governing body or ownership. 00:30:03.790 --> 00:30:06.240 I also completely agree with that. 00:30:06.735 --> 00:30:12.035 Yeah, I'm really hoping I was really hoping then yesterday I saw Matt and in 00:30:12.035 --> 00:30:16.985 the WP builds live chat, but I was really hoping out of this we we could get more 00:30:16.985 --> 00:30:22.905 clarity on five for the future and what contribution means and like how we can 00:30:23.015 --> 00:30:26.915 play with that because I love the concept from a slogan from a marketing perspective 00:30:26.915 --> 00:30:29.985 and for like encouraging people look 5 percent of whatever it is you do. 00:30:29.985 --> 00:30:32.205 Let's put it back into WordPress and let's get this thing going. 00:30:32.205 --> 00:30:32.985 Yeah. 00:30:33.155 --> 00:30:35.735 But then I saw a man on a live stream and he was, people were asking like, 00:30:35.795 --> 00:30:37.075 so what does contribution means? 00:30:37.075 --> 00:30:38.575 And he says, whatever's in your heart. 00:30:38.905 --> 00:30:39.565 Well, shit. 00:30:40.595 --> 00:30:43.065 Like I need a number, man, 40 hours a week. 00:30:43.155 --> 00:30:43.595 Yeah. 00:30:44.595 --> 00:30:48.225 Like I need a number and I, and I hope we can get to get back to 00:30:48.225 --> 00:30:52.125 some clarity around that because ultimately we need that direction. 00:30:52.730 --> 00:30:56.150 So that we don't have this ambiguity of like, am I going to piss you off? 00:30:56.540 --> 00:30:57.500 Is this enough? 00:30:57.760 --> 00:30:59.210 Are my do, am I doing the right thing? 00:30:59.210 --> 00:31:02.650 Cause I think largely people won't mind the whole five of the future thing. 00:31:02.790 --> 00:31:05.000 It just needs more clarity moving forward. 00:31:06.270 --> 00:31:07.250 Noel: Yeah, I agree with that. 00:31:07.250 --> 00:31:11.760 And I'd say we're, we're still in the midst of this automatic versus 00:31:12.020 --> 00:31:15.630 WP engine saga and probably the dust needs to settle there, before 00:31:15.630 --> 00:31:17.420 we can have these, these more. 00:31:19.095 --> 00:31:21.465 super detailed conversations on what is exact? 00:31:21.475 --> 00:31:22.435 What is this exactly? 00:31:22.435 --> 00:31:22.955 What is that? 00:31:22.955 --> 00:31:27.495 Because right now it feels very much like a, you know, a football rivalry 00:31:27.495 --> 00:31:28.945 going down on the weekend or something. 00:31:28.945 --> 00:31:32.925 And you're kind of waiting for the off season to be able to, you know, bring 00:31:32.925 --> 00:31:37.655 all the pieces back together so that you can once again, play another season, 00:31:37.655 --> 00:31:39.815 but do so with rules that benefit all. 00:31:40.545 --> 00:31:40.745 Matt: Yeah. 00:31:41.215 --> 00:31:45.585 as we sort of, Wrap things up, trying to do this in 40 to 45 minutes today, because 00:31:45.585 --> 00:31:47.835 these conversations can go on forever. 00:31:48.155 --> 00:31:51.465 folks, if you have questions, drop them in the chat, whether about 00:31:51.465 --> 00:31:54.345 this or, you know, human made and the body of work that Noel and his 00:31:54.345 --> 00:31:55.805 team have done throughout the years. 00:31:55.805 --> 00:31:57.615 Go ahead and drop those questions in the chat. 00:31:58.275 --> 00:32:01.465 where do we go from here? 00:32:01.905 --> 00:32:07.015 I think Another thing that comes out of this is now all web hosts are 00:32:07.025 --> 00:32:11.715 sort of like, Oh shit, I, I gotta be careful of how I phrase WordPress 00:32:11.745 --> 00:32:13.795 and or where's that license thing? 00:32:14.145 --> 00:32:16.585 Like, how can I get that so I don't get in trouble? 00:32:16.785 --> 00:32:20.575 Like, what, what's the ramifications for the web hosting industry you 00:32:20.575 --> 00:32:22.669 think moving forward after this? 00:32:22.669 --> 00:32:25.685 Are you waiting to see what happens or do you think people are already 00:32:25.685 --> 00:32:28.075 making, making decisions moving forward? 00:32:30.240 --> 00:32:35.010 Noel: It must be, I mean, the hosts have been so quiet throughout all of this. 00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:41.950 So I, part of me wonders, are, are they, you know, do they also have open questions 00:32:41.950 --> 00:32:48.040 about what sort of what, what everything means and where everything is going? 00:32:48.420 --> 00:32:52.530 I really like the one blog, I forget his name, who's always been posting the, 00:32:52.550 --> 00:32:54.410 the sort of legal aspects of everything. 00:32:54.410 --> 00:32:57.680 that's probably been my favorite posts on everything, but just because he's 00:32:57.680 --> 00:33:02.940 always clarified what means what, and that's been extremely beneficial to me. 00:33:03.320 --> 00:33:11.400 but yeah, it's, I, I, I don't like, I, I, it comes back to clarity and I think the 00:33:11.400 --> 00:33:13.180 hosts are absolutely looking for that. 00:33:13.430 --> 00:33:16.070 and you know, wondering what does this mean for them? 00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:18.800 I'm guessing they're probably looking at their own stuff, their own product 00:33:18.800 --> 00:33:24.360 names and, you you know, doing a bit of an internal audit, to see, you 00:33:24.360 --> 00:33:26.130 know, have we misstepped anywhere? 00:33:26.410 --> 00:33:27.870 we don't want to get caught out on this. 00:33:28.280 --> 00:33:30.230 I, that would be my gut feeling. 00:33:30.540 --> 00:33:33.700 but you know, every, the whole center stage right now is occupied by WP 00:33:33.870 --> 00:33:38.790 Engine who haven't said much themselves, which is obviously quite interesting. 00:33:39.660 --> 00:33:42.870 Matt: I have up on screen, another great question that has come up through. 00:33:43.635 --> 00:33:47.605 Us all kind of learning about this licensing thing and, the 8 percent of 00:33:47.615 --> 00:33:53.035 WP Engine's revenues, which is 30 to 40 ish million dollars a year, roughly. 00:33:53.285 --> 00:33:55.245 And people are asking, well, where does this money go? 00:33:55.245 --> 00:33:59.135 And if it's going directly to Automatic and not the foundation, how 00:33:59.135 --> 00:34:02.925 much of that money's, is Automatic putting back into WordPress? 00:34:03.135 --> 00:34:06.005 My gut tells me a good portion of it. 00:34:06.355 --> 00:34:09.655 but Automatic can, Automatic does a lot more. 00:34:09.725 --> 00:34:14.035 And I don't know how to phrase this, but it's also like things 00:34:14.035 --> 00:34:15.225 like this that was posted yesterday. 00:34:15.225 --> 00:34:17.065 The future of the social web is in good hands. 00:34:17.255 --> 00:34:19.035 Social media in its current form broke and chaotic. 00:34:19.035 --> 00:34:22.175 A new organization is the Social Web Foundation aims to change that. 00:34:22.525 --> 00:34:27.645 and Automatic is, part of that, along with a bunch of other, companies 00:34:27.645 --> 00:34:29.085 and brands that are behind this. 00:34:29.085 --> 00:34:34.775 So, I think when monies go into Automatic, they're a good steward for the open web. 00:34:36.055 --> 00:34:36.215 Quite a 00:34:36.215 --> 00:34:38.335 Noel: best steward out of all the large companies. 00:34:38.855 --> 00:34:40.315 I mean, that's probably one way to look at it, I'd say. 00:34:40.695 --> 00:34:41.015 Matt: Yeah. 00:34:41.385 --> 00:34:44.605 And it's hard against the backdrop of stuff like this, right? 00:34:44.825 --> 00:34:49.155 Because, you know, this stuff is what impacts our, our branding, our 00:34:49.155 --> 00:34:53.075 marketing of WordPress when it's like, you know, you have these headlines of 00:34:53.075 --> 00:34:57.295 Matt calling WP Engine, cancer to the ecosystem, and then you're shutting down. 00:34:57.775 --> 00:35:00.575 Shutting customers off who are just like bystanders in this stuff. 00:35:00.945 --> 00:35:05.945 And this is the stuff that really makes our job uplifting and 00:35:05.965 --> 00:35:07.725 WordPress thriving difficult. 00:35:08.065 --> 00:35:11.725 When I do see things like Automattic is doing, aside from WordPress, that 00:35:11.735 --> 00:35:14.175 are cool things for the open web. 00:35:14.175 --> 00:35:16.675 So, will all the money go to WordPress? 00:35:16.695 --> 00:35:17.265 I don't know. 00:35:17.265 --> 00:35:18.295 I think a good chunk of it will. 00:35:18.295 --> 00:35:21.855 But also, Automattic does some other stuff where that money is going, 00:35:21.855 --> 00:35:23.715 which is also benefiting, WordPress. 00:35:24.755 --> 00:35:24.985 Yeah, 00:35:25.165 --> 00:35:29.775 Noel: I guess the picture that some people are painting that the money is needed to 00:35:29.775 --> 00:35:34.985 fill some revenue gap that automatic has because automatic is failing or whatever. 00:35:34.985 --> 00:35:36.395 I don't believe that to be true. 00:35:36.845 --> 00:35:41.275 could, could automatic do a better job of listing their contributions or 00:35:41.285 --> 00:35:45.425 breaking them out as a, as, as a sort of role model for other companies? 00:35:45.426 --> 00:35:48.166 probably, you know, like it's, they do a lot. 00:35:49.036 --> 00:35:51.646 And if you really broke that all out, I, I think it, it would be. 00:35:52.096 --> 00:35:56.316 It would not only be, quite a large volume, but also very diverse activities. 00:35:56.506 --> 00:36:00.236 So it's not necessarily just about throwing money at one thing, but also 00:36:00.236 --> 00:36:04.306 experimenting with different topics, areas, experimenting with different 00:36:04.316 --> 00:36:08.396 things, not always succeeding, and, you know, as, as you say, I think 00:36:08.396 --> 00:36:09.526 they're a good steward in that regard. 00:36:10.066 --> 00:36:10.326 Matt: Yeah. 00:36:11.656 --> 00:36:12.776 I was drafting a blog post. 00:36:12.776 --> 00:36:15.026 People have been listening to this live stream, heard me talk about this already. 00:36:15.026 --> 00:36:18.326 This would be the last sort of thing we chat about, but one of the things I'm not 00:36:18.326 --> 00:36:21.936 going to publish it anymore because of all this stuff, just cause I don't need the 00:36:21.936 --> 00:36:23.666 stress and it's not going to add value. 00:36:23.966 --> 00:36:26.316 but one of the things I was saying, writing this blog post, what would 00:36:26.316 --> 00:36:27.566 I do if I was running automatic? 00:36:27.566 --> 00:36:30.236 This was pre any of this stuff months ago. 00:36:30.236 --> 00:36:32.706 I started writing it and one of the things I was saying was automatic is 00:36:32.706 --> 00:36:36.376 just going to strip out everything that is a distraction products 00:36:36.376 --> 00:36:37.986 like simple note, which I love. 00:36:38.466 --> 00:36:39.416 You don't need it anymore. 00:36:39.476 --> 00:36:40.166 Pocketcast. 00:36:40.416 --> 00:36:40.986 Love it. 00:36:41.256 --> 00:36:43.196 Use it every single day as my podcast app. 00:36:43.636 --> 00:36:45.176 Automatic shouldn't focus it on anymore. 00:36:45.306 --> 00:36:50.146 Automatic should triple, quadruple all the resources into WordPress. 00:36:50.436 --> 00:36:51.426 That is the focus. 00:36:51.426 --> 00:36:52.426 Not even Tumblr, man. 00:36:52.426 --> 00:36:54.765 I mean, I love the idea of Tumblr and WordPress. 00:36:54.766 --> 00:36:55.546 Get it out of here. 00:36:56.226 --> 00:36:56.476 Right? 00:36:56.516 --> 00:36:59.436 Anything that isn't directly WordPress, get it out. 00:36:59.476 --> 00:37:01.366 We need the focus on WordPress. 00:37:01.836 --> 00:37:04.386 You know, because they do so much. 00:37:04.816 --> 00:37:08.096 And, I think hyper focus is still gonna happen. 00:37:08.216 --> 00:37:12.126 Maybe this is that slight direction where we're gonna start to see 00:37:12.556 --> 00:37:15.856 commercial land of WordPress focused, excuse me, commercial land of 00:37:15.856 --> 00:37:21.446 automatic hyper focused on, on revenues and growth, for WordPress sake. 00:37:21.446 --> 00:37:24.386 And I think that's this Band Aid moment. 00:37:24.396 --> 00:37:25.996 Rip the Band Aid off moment for me anyway. 00:37:26.386 --> 00:37:27.586 Any closing thoughts from you? 00:37:28.031 --> 00:37:30.361 Noel: Yeah, I think you have a good point there. 00:37:30.411 --> 00:37:36.371 And I'd say that's pretty true of any bull bear cycle where companies 00:37:36.401 --> 00:37:39.061 get a bit bloated, do things they don't necessarily need to. 00:37:39.401 --> 00:37:43.451 I think I was listening to the verge podcast over a year ago, maybe two years 00:37:43.451 --> 00:37:47.031 ago, even where Matt was talking about working on Tumblr and how it was one of 00:37:47.031 --> 00:37:48.581 the most humbling experiences for him. 00:37:48.581 --> 00:37:51.671 He learned a lot and I think, you know, even if, even if Tumblr doesn't 00:37:51.671 --> 00:37:55.251 necessarily belong in the automatic portfolio, he still gets to bring 00:37:55.251 --> 00:37:56.471 that wealth of experience back. 00:37:56.521 --> 00:37:58.251 and I think that's extremely beneficial. 00:37:58.251 --> 00:38:00.806 So, you know, same for us at Human Made. 00:38:00.926 --> 00:38:02.816 You know, we, we experiment with different things. 00:38:02.816 --> 00:38:06.926 We, we try to go a bit too large with the DXP sort of labels, 00:38:07.236 --> 00:38:08.616 pull that back down to cloud. 00:38:08.976 --> 00:38:09.696 you live and learn. 00:38:09.766 --> 00:38:10.756 it, it's kind of the space. 00:38:10.756 --> 00:38:14.976 You know, you're part of an expansionary market, called WordPress, and then all 00:38:14.976 --> 00:38:20.976 of a sudden, all of a sudden, you know, it's 2020 or 2019, 2018, things are just 00:38:20.976 --> 00:38:24.256 slowing down a little bit, in terms of the growth curve and then Covid hits. 00:38:24.256 --> 00:38:25.186 And that's really. 00:38:25.541 --> 00:38:29.731 Put, you know, put a breaks on a break on everything you come back and 00:38:29.731 --> 00:38:33.501 work camps are half the attendance, less, you know, in terms of global 00:38:33.501 --> 00:38:35.071 attendance, global activity. 00:38:35.411 --> 00:38:38.651 so I think it's a humbling experience for all of us to, you know, see 00:38:38.651 --> 00:38:41.511 what's in a portfolio, what makes sense, how do we go to market? 00:38:41.861 --> 00:38:47.821 because WordPress overall WordPress, numbers can decline whilst 00:38:47.861 --> 00:38:49.201 parts of the market can grow. 00:38:49.311 --> 00:38:51.691 And that's, you know, absolutely the approach that we take 00:38:51.961 --> 00:38:53.031 with parts of enterprise. 00:38:54.106 --> 00:38:55.126 Matt: Noel Talk from Human Made. 00:38:55.126 --> 00:38:57.156 You can find him at HumanMade. 00:38:57.186 --> 00:38:57.616 com. 00:38:57.626 --> 00:38:59.616 Anywhere else folks can find you to say thanks? 00:39:00.286 --> 00:39:02.486 Noel: at Noel Talk is the best place, personally. 00:39:02.546 --> 00:39:05.656 mostly Instagram these days because of, Doggy Rescue in Ukraine. 00:39:05.656 --> 00:39:07.336 So, that's, that's where it is. 00:39:07.426 --> 00:39:09.336 And then for the more WordPress stuff, it's Twitter. 00:39:09.336 --> 00:39:11.226 So I try to separate the two, a bit. 00:39:12.196 --> 00:39:12.926 Matt: That's fantastic. 00:39:12.926 --> 00:39:14.106 Everybody else, thanks for watching today. 00:39:14.346 --> 00:39:15.726 Thanks for tuning in to WPMinute. 00:39:15.726 --> 00:39:15.916 com. 00:39:15.916 --> 00:39:16.906 The WPMinute. 00:39:17.506 --> 00:39:19.606 com slash subscribe is the number one way to stay connected. 00:39:19.606 --> 00:39:20.386 We'll see you. 00:39:20.906 --> 00:39:21.656 In the next video. 00:39:22.576 --> 00:39:23.216 Noel: Appreciate it, Matt.