[00:00:00] Kim: we do get attracted to these shiny agentic features and we're like, oh my God, that's possible. [00:00:04] Okay, but who's implementing it? who has the time to set that up? the people that we see on LinkedIn are like, talking about it because they know that that's gonna do well on LinkedIn and the people that are actually in the day-to-day operating at these companies, everyone has so much on their plate. [00:00:18] we have to be realistic with what we can actually set up. Right now that's actually gonna help us. we can have a vision of what the Ag agentic workflows are gonna look like and how that's gonna enable our teams. [00:00:29] But it's a dream state rather than the reality of buying a tool, implementing it, and just having it do a baseline good job of what you bought it for. [00:00:37] ​ [00:00:37] [00:01:40] ​ [00:03:54] Phil: Kim, thanks so much for your time today. Really excited to chat. [00:03:57] Kim: thanks for having me, Phil. I'm really excited too.[00:04:00] [00:04:00] Most AI Note Takers Just Parrot Back Junk --- [00:04:00] Phil: You recently spent an absurd amount of time testing like 22 plus different AI note takers, and you wanted to see like which ones actually delivered something useful. Maybe we can start there, like what did you learn about the state of AI tooling today throughout your research? [00:04:17] Kim: Yeah, so maybe I'll give like a a little bit of background into why I, I did this. So, uh, I work at Arrows. Uh, my title, we'll get into this, but my title is Business Operations. I do a lot of things and have been doing a lot of marketing right now, and we. We recently launched our new kind of like AI features and AI tooling for our digital sales room product. [00:04:35] And as a marketer I was like, I need to get a lot more familiar with the space. Uh, in ai. I started talking to a lot of people. We, uh, currently sell to only users who are using HubSpot. So our like sales room sit on top of HubSpot. So I started just talking to people in the HubSpot ecosystem who were using AI in HubSpot. [00:04:54] I talked to maybe a dozen people and what I realized is everyone who is. [00:05:00] Layering AI on top of HubSpot is doing that with like meeting notes for, and I guess I was specifically looking for like a sales use case. How are people using, um, AI with sales in HubSpot? And so then I realized, well, I. If everyone's dealing with the notes inside the CRM, like the call notes from like a demo or customer success call or whatever that is, how do you know that the notes are actually good? [00:05:22] And I was just noticing ourselves, we had tested a couple AI note taking tools and I noticed just in our own practice that the notes were were quite different. And so, um, I started out testing like. A handful, and then I posted it on LinkedIn, it kind of blew up and I was like, all right, I guess I'm gonna like really do this. [00:05:38] So I ended up getting like a bunch of requests and, uh, basically anyone that I could get a free trial. And I, I tested, so I tested 22 of them. And I think what I learned, well, I guess so, so the thing that I really wanted to look at was just what is the quality of the notes? Because the notes are what gets synced back to the CRM. [00:05:56] Um, so that's what you would layer any type of. AI on top [00:06:00] of, and I think if you follow HubSpot, their CEO Yamini, um, frequently talks about like unstructured data in the CRM. And so like the meeting notes is a, a piece of that unstructured data. It's sitting there, but what are you gonna do with it? Um, and so what I found is I tested these 22. [00:06:17] And there were only a handful that I felt for a sales rep without doing any kind of custom configuration on my side for like any setup, just the out of the box features for each of these tools. There were only a few that I felt were actually like good quality notes that were super accurate, actionable, and kind of broke out the right information that I would need specifically for a sales use case. [00:06:38] And so out of 22, having only three that really did that well I think was pretty eye-opening. Um, and maybe not something that people. Realize because you just kind of assume that the notes from an AI note taker are gonna be really high quality. [00:06:52] Phil: Yeah. And I, I saw your posts on, on LinkedIn too. It, it definitely, uh, blew up there. And you, [00:07:00] you, we were chatting before recording on like some of the comments that you got on that post, and a lot of folks were just like, you know, a lot of these tools do way more than just. Transcribe and then turn that transcript into notes, like you're missing out on all these other AI features. [00:07:15] And we have AI agents that do this and do that. And, uh, we chatted about this idea that like, you know, maybe the folks just want it for the notes and, and the summaries and the action items. And, and maybe think of a question that like we could kind of dive into around this whole like, hype cycle with AI tools as you're like diving into. [00:07:35] You know, they, the, the stuff for, um, sales folks and, you know, CS folks, marketing folks as well. Like, we all kind of rely on some of these toolings and the hype is leading to like AI fatigue, I guess you, you could say. Right? Like when we first chatted chatting, you're just like, oh, I don't know how you feel about like, talking about AI again. [00:07:53] And we definitely chat about AI for sure on the show. But I wanted to ask you, so like. [00:07:59] Why Most Teams Will Miss the AI Agent Wave Entirely --- [00:07:59] Phil: Lots of really smart folks are predicting that in a few years, knowledge workers aren't writing emails or doing follow ups with prospects or fixing workflows. We will be managing agents who do it for us, and it's like a fun, exciting, compelling vision. [00:08:18] Scary for some folks, but for a lot of marketing ops folks and sales ops folks that work in the real world, like it feels so far away and distant. Messy data and like duplicate records. It it just like we live in the real world and like all this stuff about agents like seems so far fetched. Do you think that like the kind of future that a lot of these folks are hyping and painting is actually coming or is it like hype that ignores how real work gets done today? [00:08:47] Kim: I do feel like it's coming. I don't know how soon. I mean, I think it's, it's hard to imagine that it's not just [00:08:55] Phil: Yeah. [00:08:56] Kim: uh, there's already so much out [00:09:00] there about it. I think the, the thing that is leading to all of this fatigue and is leading to. A lot of the AI hype is that a lot of people talking about AI are doing it on LinkedIn, which I'm a part of, um, or on, on podcasts like this. [00:09:16] But I think people are, are showing the most oftentimes, like the most complex or viral, uh, potential, I guess, uh, workflows. And so I think people are getting really intimidated. So I think my perspective on all of this is. You know, this audience is mostly people in ops who are probably getting more into AI and, and starting to think about agentic AI and stuff like that. [00:09:41] But at a company, there's a lot of people that are not in ops that are just like sales reps or CSMs that are working day-to-day and they're doing calls and they're sending emails and they're not able to spend a lot of time experimenting with this kind of stuff. And they also can't rely solely on an ops team. [00:09:59] To [00:10:00] figure all of that out for them. Like I do think that there's a world, and I'm maybe going a little bit off topic of this question exactly, but I think that there has to be a world where we start sharing more like practical, easy use cases for AI to get the whole baseline of like every one at a company to start feeling comfortable with. [00:10:22] Like, you know, there's some people who are, who are still not using, you know, Claude Chatt pt, like the basic kind of, um. AI tools and then so there's like that baseline level that I think we have to get people feeling comfortable. Like, you can trust ai. This is how you talk to ai. This is how you prompt it. [00:10:38] This is how you know. Kind of what a good AI output looks like. That's the baseline. And then there's a next level of getting people to start playing with some of the IPAs tools that you were just telling me about. But, but you know, like the Zapier agents or, um, relay app is one that we've been talking about or talking to a lot recently. [00:10:57] But there's like that next level of like, okay, [00:11:00] so now you've seen what you can do here. There's a next level of this. And I think. I think that future is possible, but it's not going to be possible if we are just talking about all the advanced use cases. All the really cool things, it's awesome, but the reality is that not a lot of people have the time or the bandwidth or are, are trusting enough of AI yet to actually start implementing that stuff. [00:11:21] Phil: Yeah, it, it's such a good point, and it's something we chat about on the show with different folks. There's like, like a hesitancy to dive in and like some folks will say they're curious, but like I, I chat, like you just said, a lot of folks are just like really in the early stages of using Chad GBT, like I was chatting with. [00:11:41] Um, someone who's like a, a senior VP of marketing and he sent me a note and he was just like, Hey, look, I'm, I just joined a new company and everyone's using Chachi PD for like meeting notes and summarizing agendas, and I'm just like, so not there yet. Like, how do I get an intro to that? Like how do I [00:12:00] get started there? [00:12:00] So really like your point about like helping people walk before we start chatting about like all the things they can do with AI to run and like to sprint. But the thing, like, I keep going back on, like we talk about like a lot of futurist stuff on the show. Like there's, there's also this like fear that this AI future is gonna come a lot faster than we're prepared for. [00:12:23] That's where you kind of started your answer. You're just like, I think it's coming. AI agents are like gonna take over some stuff. It's a matter of time. And that like time thing is, is what's like really the core of the question here. Because like for example, if, if we were having this conversation just three years ago, February, 2022, open AI launched chat GPT as like a research preview before it went mega viral. [00:12:45] When AI Systems Meet The Chaos Of Actual Workplace Processes --- [00:12:45] Phil: It would've been crazy three years ago to say that, you know, 400 million people every week on the planet are using chat GPD for a variety of shit. Even my parents are using chat gti and it feels crazy to say, and it's only been three [00:13:00] years, like I have dramatically changed how I work, even like run my life, find information. [00:13:05] Not everyone is there yet, but 400 million people are there yet every week. And like I think that the question I have is like, do you worry that we're under preparing people in ops or in sales or in marketing by focusing too much on like the. Alright, let's figure out how to walk. Here's an intro to chat, GPT and how to get comfortable with AI instead of like adding more urgency to this because it could be coming a lot faster than we're prepared for. [00:13:34] Like what if all the vendors that are talking about how to sprint with AI and hyping this future. What if like they're in the right and it's the users that are just like, it's too slow to adapt that in a couple years they're gonna look back and they're gonna be like, you know what? I wish I had taken a couple of hours during my day when I'm not on the call or I'm not following up with sales. [00:13:54] And I had like taken my own initiative to like learn about this and experiments [00:14:00] and stuff like that. Like what are your thoughts there? [00:14:02] Kim: I, I do think that's true. I think that, I think that it is on the users and on the day-to-day sales and customer success and support reps to. Find the time and figure out where they're spending the ti, their time where, where AI can be, uh, added to it. Because I do think it is coming and it's coming faster, like you said, like we have no idea. [00:14:27] Like I'm in my mind right now with what we have now. I'm like, oh yeah, like I could see like in two to three years, but like we have no idea what could launch tomorrow and, and completely change that game. And I think when I think about, uh, we were talking about this, but like I consider myself to be non-technical, so. [00:14:43] Um, I really only started playing around with chat to bt uh, early last year, so early 2024. I felt late at the time. I felt like, oh, everyone's talking about it and I am really intimidated and I don't know where to start with this. I'm so glad. And so [00:15:00] at the time I almost felt like. Uh, maybe I'm just not gonna be an AI person, and so I should just like not even worry about it. [00:15:06] And I'm so grateful now because same with you. I use it for everything. I mean, I use it all the time and I, I frequently think, uh, especially with like marketing projects, like, how did I previously not use this? Like how did I not have this kind of like, assistant helping me think through ideas and, and stuff like that. [00:15:23] And so. I do think that the, the, the tech and the vendors are going to push us, and I think that it is up to the users to keep up with that. And I think, but I think the, the solution is that there's always gonna be more technical people who are jumping on that train and learning about this stuff. I would say like, I'm probably in the middle. [00:15:44] Um, there's, there's super technical people who know all of this stuff and are implementing it, um, and, and doing all of that. And then there's a lower level of people who are still hesitant and, and learning. And I think what needs to happen more is we need to, there needs to be more [00:16:00] content or, uh, I think we need to find a way to make AI more approachable because those. [00:16:06] We need to get people kind of caught up to the, the midline or, and then like the midline needs to be caught up to the experts. Like, I think we all need to keep getting better, but it seems like there's, um, there's not a lot to. Make people feel like it's approachable, I think in, in some ways. So I think that's a big thing that I'm thinking about in like in terms of the marketing that we're doing at Arrows is like, how do we make AI approachable for people who are in sales, people who are in Cs, to start building that muscle and start just learning to trust it and think, oh, this just helped me do this. [00:16:37] I wonder if it could do this. And I think it's like that curiosity that the individual user has to. Kind of lean into to figure out how could it help me in this way? And I think one other kind of piece of it is I think you have to think about AI in bits and pieces. Like I think people want to have this whole big vision. [00:16:56] Like it's easy to jump for. Like, I'm not using AI at all, or [00:17:00] not in the way that I want. Um, and then there's this version of, yeah, like AI is taking over my job and it's doing everything and I only have to do like phone calls maybe, but I don't have to do any of like the work in between and. There's a lot that has to happen in order to reach that state. [00:17:15] And so I think starting small with like small little things that it can just help you do is the best way forward. I. [00:17:21] Phil: Yeah, that's such a great point. I think the content side can get a lot more approachable and, and get folks kind of like. Introduced to it when they're like not at that stage yet. I think like something that makes it tricky too is that a lot of tools today seem to be designed in a vacuum when it comes to like AI features, and you read about some of this stuff in the terminology and they all sound the same, but they all do something different and they're like build for ideal workflows, but. [00:17:48] For users who like tag every record perfectly and document every process and magically have time to do all that. Like we know in the real world that's not, we're not there yet. Like do you think many [00:18:00] features, and especially in your research, like for, for the note takers, like many of the features are solving problems that no one really has yet. [00:18:07] Like, do you think that keeps happening? [00:18:10] Kim: I think it's happening. And I think, I think the thing that I think that's definitely happening, I think the thing that needs to happen is that people need to, it's, it's kind of going back to my same answer, but it's like the, okay, so if we take the AI note takers, right? So a lot of the criticism, like you said, that I got of like my post is like, you're only looking at the notes. [00:18:29] That's like basic, that is like. Table stakes, every, everyone should have good notes. Well, I tested 22 of them and I didn't find that they all had great notes. But there is a layer on top of that where a lot of those tools do have some age agentic AI features in them. And that's great. And you, and you should have both. [00:18:45] And when you're considering purchasing a tool, if you want to have more ai. Um, and agentic AI workflows, you should make sure that that tool has it, but you still have to make sure that it has a baseline level of output. And I think that's where a lot of [00:19:00] the disconnect is too, is like we do get attracted to these like shiny agentic features and we're like, oh my God, that's possible. [00:19:06] Okay, but who's implementing it? Like who's, who has the time to set that up? And again, like I think the people that we see on LinkedIn are like, they're, they're setting that stuff up and talking about it because they know that that's gonna do well on LinkedIn and the people that are actually in the day-to-day operating at these companies, we have, everyone has so much on their plate. [00:19:26] Like, I just think that there's like a, a, we have to be realistic with what we can actually set up. Right now that's actually gonna help us. And I think a lot of times it's the more basic things and the more basic functionality that actually moves a needle. And then we can, we can have a vision of what the Ag agentic workflows are gonna look like and how that's gonna enable our teams. [00:19:47] But it's sometimes I think a little bit more of like a dream state rather than like the reality of like buying a tool, implementing it, and just having it do a baseline good job of what you bought it for. [00:19:59] Phil: [00:20:00] Yeah. So in in that research that you did, like, you, you obviously put a lot of them to the test. It wasn't just a demo. 'cause like sometimes, like the demos sound amazing, but they totally flop in, in the wild when you put it to test. [00:20:14] How Effective AI Tools Minimize Distance Between Information And Action --- [00:20:14] Phil: What's one of the features that you think gets way too much hype in these, like AI note takers? [00:20:20] Um, is there like any vendor throughout the research? Like, I know you've ranked some of them, but like, is there one of the product, uh, or maybe just like outside note takers too, that has surprised you in a good way when you've like put it to the test? [00:20:33] Kim: Yeah, so, okay. So I think overall across a bunch of different tools that are, you know, everyone's layering on AI right now to their tools, which is smart, and I think people should, um, I think it's the right move right now, but. The one kind of thing that all, all of the AI notetakers have, um, that I do find less helpful than it seems in marketing is like the like ask AI feature like in any tool where it's like people are like, oh, we just launched [00:21:00] this new AI feature. [00:21:01] It's like, it's a chat where you can chat with the tool and ask it questions and it's great. Like it is great actually. And like we use that like for the tools that have it, like it's not bad, but I think it seems. Cooler than it maybe is. And I think the way that, at least at arrows, the way that we are thinking about AI is like the ASK AI kind of stuff is reactive. [00:21:22] Where a human has to think, okay, I back to like the basic Chachi BT prompting, a human has to think, okay, I want to know this information. I want to go to this tool and ask, get this information and then I know what I wanna do with this output. And so it requires a level of like, I'm gonna stop and think. [00:21:42] I'm gonna go ask this tool a question, and I think that there's a version of these tools where any, any AI tools or or tools that are adding AI that are thinking about the actual workflow of their users. And proactively suggesting [00:22:00] or proactively saying, this is how AI should layer into your day-to-day, versus having someone have to go to the tool and say, I wanna ask this a question. [00:22:08] If you know that that's a question that's gonna come up, like if you're, if you're building something and you wanna build an AI feature, if you know that something's gonna come up. I'm gonna give an example of arrows just because that's our product and that's what we've been thinking about. But like, for example, one of the AI things that we are, um, building is like content suggestions for your digital sales room. [00:22:27] So if an email comes into HubSpot, we can read that and say, Hey, it sounds like they, uh, wanted to schedule a trial kickoff call. Do you wanna add that to a milestone in your sales room? And so we're not the, the kind of difference between that and like an ask AI. Chat bot inside a tool is that we are saying, Hey, we noticed this happened. [00:22:46] It seems like you want this to happen. You don't have to think as a sales rep, uh oh, that happened. Now I wanna make sure I go update my sales arm. 'cause the reality is people aren't thinking like that. People are thinking about, I have a next meeting that I have to prep for, or Can I [00:23:00] close this deal by the end of this week to make my boss happy? [00:23:02] They're not thinking about all the little details that they have to do in their day to day. And so I just think sometimes that stuff looks really cool on a demo. And the reality is it's not actually proactively helping users in their day to day. [00:23:16] Phil: Yeah. An example for like the marketing ops context would be a lot of like automation platforms or, or I tools. Are still designed at, at their core to be like, um, if this, then that type of workflows and they're like linear workflows and you have branches or whatever. Just like you can build in, in HubSpot with like drip campaigns and, and sales campaigns. [00:23:38] Um, but a lot of tools are coming out with like a. Prompt the tool and we'll create the workflow for you. Just like explain to us what the end goal is and like, we'll, we'll create it for you. And I've, I've tried a lot of them and I just feel like it's, it's trying to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. [00:23:56] Like, it, it, I don't need you to create a draft for me. [00:24:00] If I'm just gonna spend the next 10 minutes fixing that draft and it takes too much time to fix it in the first place, like if I had started with a blank canvas, I would've gotten to my destination a lot faster. And I feel like that that kind of resonates a lot with your, your answer about like, we want to add layer on that's going to be. [00:24:18] Value add, like helping people be more efficient as opposed to just like everyone has an ask AI or like draft this meeting agenda with ai. Um, but like on on the research that you did specifically, so it was like when you put them up against each other, it was like 22 tools and you had the same sales call, so they all had the same input. [00:24:40] And, um, the, the comparison research that you did like. Marketing and sales ops folks like rarely have the luxury of, of doing this. Like when we're researching a new tool, maybe we've got like five that, that we're gonna compare. And this idea of having the same input for all of them is really cool. Um, how many actually [00:25:00] delivered something useful? [00:25:01] Uh, you kinda tease that out already, but like, what were the others optimizing for instead? Walk us through that. [00:25:07] Kim: Yeah. So I think, I mean, that is the one like caveat. And to be honest, I was nervous about even putting the guide out because I was like, I don't want people to be upset because I know that I'm not evaluating the entire tool. I'm just evaluating the, the quality of the notes that came out. But I, going back to my previous statement, I think that's really critical and actually like one of the most important parts of these tools, um. [00:25:27] But, uh, there were three that were exceptional notes for me. Um, I'll call them out. Uh, fathom Granola and Circle Back were the three that, um, to me based on, again, just the outta the box notes had like really actionable, concise, great notes that if I was a seller, I would want to use. so I was specifically looking for the sales use case. So like I am a seller, I just did a demo. And so I want to be able to see those notes or reference back to those notes when I'm coming back to do my follow up. And so the things that I cared about were, [00:26:00] did the call transcript or did the, the notes pull out key stakeholders? [00:26:04] Did they pull out timelines that we talked about? Did they pull out pain points? Um. I think those are kind of honestly like the basic things. Oh, next steps and action items is a really, really big one. Um, I think that's the thing that we can all relate to with, uh, we are in calls all day and then it's like at the end of the day you're like, well, what was I, what did I promise them? [00:26:21] And then for me, oftentimes I'm going back watching the call recording look, looking at the last 10 minutes of the transcript to be like, what did I tell them I was gonna do before this call? So I think the action items are really huge too. Um. So yeah, those three delivered a across the board on all of those for just things that as a sales rep or customer success or whoever, if you're doing calls, you can reference back to those notes and have a really good, clear understanding of what happened in that call without like having to do a lot of digging. [00:26:51] And I think one thing I'll say too, that I think is, um, going back to your previous question about the. [00:27:00] AI tools in general, and what I think a lot of them are doing is it seems like a lot of tools generally that are summarizing, doing AI summaries of anything, whether it's a note taker or CRM or whatever it is. [00:27:10] It's almost like they're taking three bullet points of information and putting them into a big block of text with like a bunch of crap around the three pieces of information. And so I think that's what I really found with a lot of the notes is like. They probably all had valuable notes, but if I can't skim that, then it's not valuable. [00:27:31] And so actually what I personally found and what I think most people would find most valuable for things like that, for any kind of AI summary is what are the three things you should care about most? Or like, what are the high level things? Rather than a long paragraph where I have to go through and be like, okay, well that's. [00:27:46] Irrelevant, that's irrelevant. Like you're just adding fluff to like show that there's a lot of information, but we don't want that fluff. If anything, the, the notes should be removing all fluff completely and you should just have [00:28:00] actionable, uh, bullet points of what happened in that call and what needs to happen next. [00:28:05] Phil: Yeah, and, and you can spot the, the GP TMS in that like fluff around the bullet point. Like just give me the one action item there for the podcast. I use Descrip to Trans Transcribe all of the, the podcast episodes and I. It's usually pretty solid. Um, like there's, there's a lot of other like transcription, uh, apps that I've, I've compared it to and does a decent job until you get into an area where there's like. [00:28:31] Buzzwords or like acronyms that are specific for that. So, um, like just curious in the sales call that you add, uh, like you had as the input for that. Like was it a super easy sales call where there are like things that was like a bunch of acronyms and 'cause like that's, that's the part where I'm always like editing, um, indescript to being like, alright, I pass. [00:28:53] Like we talked about that. Now I pass episode, I had to manually change that in a bunch of places and it wasn't just like, find and replace. [00:29:00] Because they transcribed or it transcribed ias in a bunch of different ways, and so it, it was like super painful to do there. [00:29:07] ​ [00:30:57] Kim: Yeah, it was a basic sales call that I did. I tried to keep [00:31:00] it pretty like generic for like a, a general sales demo. The, the two things that I did do to kind of try and trick the ai, which most of them did pass this, but I included some small talk, like if you're, if you're on a sales call, you're probably doing small talk in the beginning, and I, as a seller. [00:31:14] Don't care to see that in my notes. Like that's just a nice thing that we did, but I don't need to reference that again. Um, and I, a lot, I will say a lot of them included the small talk. Like I was set, I talked about like a trip to Italy and hiking in Denver or whatever, and I, they included that and it's like, that's, again, that's irrelevant information. [00:31:30] So I thought the, the, there, the three that I tested did not have them in the small talk in there. And so I thought that was really impressive that they were able to see that's not relevant to this conversation and that's not. What you need in your notes. And so we don't need to include that. And [00:31:45] Phil: Hmm. [00:31:46] Kim: I also included one little blurb about like, it was dumb. [00:31:49] Chachi BT suggested that this is what I put in there. But I did like, um, uh, at the end it was like, by the way, have you ever uh, trained a cat to use a toilet? Something like stupid like that, and I'll say, I think [00:32:00] only one or two of the tools picked that up. So I was kind of trying to like throw some tricky things in there to be like, does it pick these things up and can it see that that's obviously not relevant to the conversation and don't include that in the notes. [00:32:12] So little things like [00:32:14] Phil: Very cool. [00:32:14] Kim: Yeah. [00:32:15] Phil: So what would like AI features on top of that look like? Because like, I know, I know that's like coming up in, in your second part and that, that was like the, the source of a lot of the, the comments from some, from, from some folks. Um, but like you're super deep into that like sales ops space and the CS space for, for onboarding, um, ad arrows. [00:32:36] Like [00:32:36] How Agent Workflows Turn Conversation Intelligence Into Automated Action --- [00:32:36] Phil: what would it look like to design AI features that respect the actual attention span that some of these CS folks or sales ops folks that have back to, back to back meetings all the time? Like what would that look like? [00:32:48] Kim: Yeah, so for the AI note takers, specifically the things that I found impressive, so I'm, I'm launching a part two of this and it's like a deep dive with like the, the CEOs and founders who built these tools to kind of show me like [00:33:00] what's impressive about your tool. Um, and the things that I think are really cool and actually helpful for day-to-day users is, um, again, we're, we're specifically focusing on like, uh, how they integrate with HubSpot for a lot of these. [00:33:11] But like a lot of them can pull specific parts of the notes or the transcript and put that into a property in the CRM, so they can say, okay, you're, uh, the property that you wanna fill is maybe their, um, like medic uh, sales buying criteria. Budget, whatever that those things are. Or pain points like, I think that's a big one we see for like a customer success use case for like handing off information. [00:33:33] If the sales team uncovered pain points in the sales process, fill a property and have that sit in the, the CRM so the CSM can see what the pain points are. They don't know how to ask again on the next call. So those are some basic things is like saying and prompting, this is the, the information I want. [00:33:48] Fill it into the CRM and then you can do tons of automations once it's in the CRM. Um, and then there's a lot of different things that you can do. Uh, I saw a lot of cool use cases where it pulls the action items into project [00:34:00] management tools, um, or into HubSpot. So you can set a HubSpot task and actually create a task for yourself. [00:34:05] If you said that you were gonna do this, then create a task. You can manage the. The to-dos and, and things like that afterward. And then there's a lot of really, really cool and unique, uh, kind of agentic things that people are doing, and I don't wanna discount that. It's really, really cool that you can do all of that stuff. [00:34:21] It's amazing. It's just like if the notes aren't great, then it, it. Matters less in my, in my opinion. Um, I don't know if I have specific kind of things that you can do, but there's a lot of really cool things, and I do think that is the next level for all of these AI note taking tools is like, they all know that they need to be adding more, uh, like AI workflows, you have this information, now do this with it. [00:34:44] If it sees this, then do this. If it knows it's a sales call, then put it into this kind of workflow action. So I think there's gonna be a lot more of that coming soon too. [00:34:52] Phil: Very cool. I'm, I'm excited for, for that next part. I think it's, it's cool that you're chatting with some of the founders and, and the product folks, like you're almost turning [00:35:00] this into a YouTube series, that it could become its own podcast because there's so many of them out there, and. Um, I, I feel like they all layer on a different flavor of this, and there's different use cases for it, like sales and CS is one. [00:35:12] Um, there's like the whole like box of internal meetings too. Like everyone inside a company has internal meetings and like agendas and next action items and, and all that stuff. And I know some of them like focus on, on different parts of that. So yeah, excited to to check that out. Um, [00:35:30] Why Tool Consolidation Fails Without Team Member Interviews --- [00:35:30] Phil: I wanted to ask you a question about. It's like idea of like a bloated tech stack. And I know that like you've gotten a chance with like all the clients that you have at Aros to, to get a bit different taste of this. And you were at startups, um, you said that you have your hands, uh, busy in a lot of these different things like marketing ops folks. [00:35:49] Oftentimes like inherit tech stack, like we join a company and sometimes it's like 40 tools. Some of them like people have never touched in the last 18 months. If you find yourself [00:36:00] in that situation when you join a new startup or even like a bigger company, what would you recommend folks as kind of like the first move to clean things up, or at least like stop some of the bleeding with like the bloat of, of tools there? [00:36:12] Just curious your thoughts. I. [00:36:14] Kim: Yeah, I think it's so dependent on the company and, and what everyone is doing, but the, one of the things that I, this is maybe a more simpl simplistic answer than you're, than you're hoping for here, but one of the things that I really admire about, like new people joining a company, I. Is like spending the first few weeks, like interviewing the people that are there. [00:36:34] So like if you're coming in and you're inheriting a tech stack and maybe you're primarily supporting Yeah, like marketing or, you know, I think one thing too is like we work with a lot of ops people and a lot of marketing ops people are supporting sales and customer success, and they're just like running ops across the board. [00:36:48] Um, a lot of times because they're experts in like HubSpot or like whatever marketing automation tool that they're using and it connects to the CRM and so they end up becoming just like the general ops person. Um. [00:37:00] And so I think that, um, like actually just interviewing everyone and saying, what are you doing day to day? [00:37:06] Like, I think, I think there's so much to be said for as an ops person building trust and understanding between the teams that you're supporting directly or indirect link. If you're just marketing ops, obviously you're running marketing, but that touches marketing touches every. Every other organization or uh, a team within an organization. [00:37:26] And so I think building that trust, understanding what are people actually doing, and starting, like I would almost start with like consolidating a tech stack and saying, what are the things that people need? I. And I think a lot of times there's probably overlap between a lot of those tools where it's like, okay, so I know that you want to do this. [00:37:45] We can actually do that in this tool and it's gonna be a lot easier. And so let's consolidate that and kind of start there, I think is the best place to think about getting down from like 42 or however many uh uh, tools. Tools you're [00:38:00] inheriting. [00:38:00] Phil: Yeah. No, I love your answer. I think it's on brand with the podcast. Like I asked you a question about the tech and your answer was just like, I would flip that and start with the people. Humans interview and chat with like a bunch of different folks. What are you using? What's your use case there? I think that's a. [00:38:15] A great answer. I think in ops there's like this quiet function that we play that's like protecting people from complexity. Like a 40 tool tech stack might sound pretty crazy to folks in, in startups, but when you have different products and different sub-teams within those teams, and there was like an acquisition that just happened, it like 40 tools is kind of nothing when, when you're in like a, a bigger team. [00:38:40] But, um, [00:38:41] Reframe Tool FOMO by Setting Clear Priorities and Capturing Curiosity --- [00:38:41] Phil: this idea of like. Protecting people from complexity as the company scales, like protecting folks from chasing shiny objects that derail workflows or break processes that are working okay today. Um, but you know, it, it makes us sometimes look like blockers. Like we're often the people just kinda like. [00:39:00] Not shitting on other people's ideas, but just like being the person in the meeting that's just like, yeah, you know what? Like we don't need that tool guys. Like I know you guys are all excited about this, but we actually don't need that. We have something very similar that can do just a good of a job. I just need to tweak that custom object in HubSpot and it's gonna work fine. [00:39:17] What are your thoughts on like being the ops person who sometimes has to consistently like push back on ideas while still protecting complexity, but like folks are just. Potentially, you know, like getting a bad taste in their mouth about you always being the person to like, you know, saying no to stuff or, or blocking stuff that are curious your thoughts. [00:39:37] Kim: Yeah, I think that my perspective of ops is that most ops people probably know the most about all the other, at least like in go to market, all the other go to market teams. So like if you are in some sort of ops role, you, you understand the most about everyone. Whereas like sales just knows about sales and maybe like a little bit about marketing, [00:40:00] maybe customer success, but like. [00:40:01] In an ops role, you have to know that's your job to know what everyone's doing. And so I think really playing into that role and leaning into it, and again, like going back to my previous answer, making sure you really understand what are people, what do what, what do people care about most? Like what are their goals? [00:40:18] What do they care about most in their day-to-day? And I think being the one that is kind of, um. Dialing people back to be like, okay, yeah. Like that is a cool tool. And like what are, what are our goals right now? Like what are the things that we need to prioritize and focus on? And I think that's like the biggest thing is like. [00:40:35] Everyone understands there's priorities and it's fun to share cool tools like we do that we're at a nine, I'm at a nine person startup, but like we share cool tools all the time and we know we're not gonna implement them, but it's like we're just sharing like this, this looks really cool and if we ever do find a need for it, but I think that there's a version to be like, Hey, awesome. [00:40:53] Thanks for sharing that because I do wanna know about cool new tools and, and things like that. But let's bring it back to like, what are the priorities right now? And [00:41:00] here's what we are actually are prioritizing. And so this is something maybe we can revisit in Q3, but right now we're focusing on this and we're, and the reason we're focusing on this is because we're gonna automate this, or we're gonna take this off of your plate, or we're gonna improve this process. [00:41:14] So I think just bringing it back to the value of the current thing that you are doing and why that matters for that team, and like building that trust and, and understanding and making sure that they know, that you understand what's on their plate, why they have the desire, but like pulling it back to this is what we need to focus on now. [00:41:31] Phil: Yeah. Do you find that in, maybe not just arrows, but like past, uh, companies too? 'cause I know you were at a bunch of different startups like. Too often ops teams get looped in after a tool is being requested for evaluation. Or worse, like someone's already decided that we're buying this tool, or new marketing leader or sales leader join the company that's like, oh, I, I used this tool and tool. [00:41:55] Last companys we're gonna buy this tool. I don't really care if you have something similar. We're gonna ditch [00:42:00] that when the contract ends. Like, I'm a big fan of this tool, we're gonna use it. Um, what advice do you have for folks trying to build influence upstream when we're, oftentimes the team was just like asked to do an evaluation or be the team that implements it when it feels like big decisions are often like made without us. [00:42:19] Kim: Yeah, I luckily haven't experienced that a ton, uh, yet, so that's great. I'm sure it happens all the time, but I think that my answer for this will be similar to what I would say for any role. We actually, uh, part of our, our product at Arrows is customer onboarding. And so we have a, a podcast about, it's like onboarding therapy and we talk about onboarding, but a big thing that we talk about is like, um. [00:42:41] Yeah, getting, like getting buy-in from your leaders and I think no matter what your role is, whether you're in ops and evaluating tools or needing to push back, uh, on tools that are being suggested or, or brought in, I think that you just need to constantly be like sharing your value and why it matters to bring you in like. [00:42:58] I think that, I think it's [00:43:00] really easy for ops people to go heads down and be like, I like, you know, your, your work is valuable. Like it's obvious to you because you are like literally running and connecting all the dots between all of these different processes. But I think sometimes I. People don't realize that it's, that's not visible to other people. [00:43:16] You're actually, if you're doing a good job in ops, it's not visible because people aren't seeing that friction. And so they're just seeing things working and they're not understanding how you're involved. So I think a lot of it is just, um, advocating for yourself and sharing your wins and sharing how you're involved in these processes. [00:43:30] And again, going back to like the trust with other teams is like making sure that they realize that if they involve you, they're actually gonna have a much better process. Like it's going to be a, a better. You're gonna get up and running more smoothly. You, and I think like positioning yourself as the expert on all of the tools. [00:43:47] So I think that there's just like, there's a lot of like internal marketing that you have to do for ops to be like, this is the value of ops, this is the value of my role in ops, and when you should bring me in. Because I think a lot of times too, people do [00:44:00] that maybe not with that intentions, and they're just. [00:44:03] Um, they're just thinking, oh my gosh, you know, Phil's always so busy, I just don't wanna add anything. This actually just happened to me two weeks ago. Our sales rep was like, Kim's always so busy, I don't wanna bring her into this thing. It was like, well intentioned, but then there was kind of a mess because I wasn't brought in. [00:44:17] And I don't blame him because I actually feel bad that like, he felt like he couldn't bring me in or, or didn't wanna bother me. And so I think there's like a version of, sometimes people are like, oh, they're just so busy with stuff. I don't wanna bother them with this. But I think drawing that clear delineation of. [00:44:31] This is where I should be involved and where I can help you with this so that we can get this off the, off, up and running more quickly or more smoothly. [00:44:39] Phil: I feel like your background in onboarding gives you a really cool perspective of this. 'cause like you said, like you're, you're business ops, but you're doing a bit of everything and, and because of the customer base, uh, you're getting a lens across. Like marketing, sales and, and customer success also, um, you've probably seen a bunch of different [00:45:00] adoption of technology play out over time, across clients and, and your startup experience. [00:45:06] Also, [00:45:07] Driving AI Tool Adoption Through User-Led Trust --- [00:45:07] Phil: when it comes to ai, like. What do you think companies consistently underestimate when it comes to rolling out tools, either from a company standpoint like yourself or what you've seen, um, like customers onboard arrows themselves? Like what, what are your thoughts there? I. [00:45:24] Kim: I think, I think it's, um, again, understanding, so like if, uh, if you're an ops person who's going to roll out an AI tool or any tool, I think it's just really, again, like understanding what the day-to-day user. So I think it's easy to say, okay, well I'm an ops so this is how I'm gonna set this up and these are all the processes that I'm gonna set up. [00:45:43] But you have to be considering with that tool, how, if you're, if you're purchasing a tool for a sales rep or for a customer success manager, whoever it is, you have to think about how is that person going to interact with this day to day? How are they going to learn how to use this and how are they going to [00:46:00] build trust that this is a tool that is actually gonna help them in their jobs? [00:46:02] I think sometimes, um, if we're rolling out a new tool for, um, for a team. There's pushback. It's like, well, I've, I, I'm already used to doing this process in Google Sheets or in Google Docs or whatever, and I don't really have the time to think about changing my process. So I think there's a lot of like figuring out what are people doing now? [00:46:22] How can I market this internally again to say, this is why it's gonna be so much better for you. And then how can you think about team adoption and making sure people are using it? And I think, I think it, there's oftentimes a lot of frustration with that because. You're gonna have early adopters internally who wanna use a new tool and wanna try a new process. [00:46:41] But you're gonna have a lot of people who are just comfortable and, and busy. I mean, like, it's not a bad thing. It's a, they're doing their jobs, they're busy and they don't have time to, to learn a new tool or they don't feel like they have time. So I think sometimes it's, it's also getting kind of those early adopters as champions to say, Hey, I started using this tool. [00:46:57] I'm really loving it. Um, it's [00:47:00] helping me do this and. Maybe I do like a lunch and learn to show, show everyone how I'm using it and getting that internal buy-in rather than coming from like an ops person who's saying this is the best way to do it. Having it come from a peer who's using it and used to run their same workflow, I think is a really good way to kind of get that buy-in and get that kind of like internal champion. [00:47:21] BN. [00:47:21] Phil: Yeah, or or worse being the ops person being like, we bought this [00:47:25] Kim: Yeah. [00:47:26] Phil: You are now forced to do this, and here are the consequences. If we see that you're not updating your records like that. Never plays out really well. I love your idea about having a champion who then shows the rest of the team, especially in sales too. [00:47:41] Like there's, there's this like competitive nature between reps and when one person on the team is using this new thing and they see success naturally, everyone's gonna be like, shit, am I falling behind? Like, do I need to to check that out? I feel like that's a really good like. Full circle to how we started the [00:48:00] conversation about AI and where folks are on that like adoption curve and that a lot of people are still, you know, very slow to get used to even like basic LLM stuff in their personal lives and in in that work. [00:48:13] How to Build AI Skills If You Feel Like You're Falling Behind --- [00:48:13] Phil: Maybe we can chat about some of those folks that are like mid-career, um, in marketing ops or sales ops. Um, they're, they're great at what they do. Like you said, like they're doing their job, they're hitting their, their quotas, but they're seeing job posts asking for stuff that I. They're not really familiar with like AI experience, prompt engineering, um, agentic, like we're starting to see some of that stuff and like automation design and, and it's making them like panic a little bit, like have moments of self-reflection, like I'm doing really good at my current job and like everything's going well, but. [00:48:49] You know, anything could happen. I could lose this job tomorrow and I don't have any AI shit to add to my resume. Am I falling behind? So what would you actually tell someone [00:49:00] in, in that position now that you've had the chance to like do this big research? Um, you said you're using AI a lot in your day to day. [00:49:07] What would you tell someone in that position to focus on like this year to prepare for the craziness that's like still gonna come? [00:49:14] Kim: Yeah. Okay. So I would say. Definitely if you haven't already, start using Chacha, bt, or Claude or one of those major tools every day. Like find a, find a thing that you could try using it for, even in your personal life and just get comfortable with that. Like that's the baseline that I think I. You have to start, uh, understanding and exploring. [00:49:37] Um, this, I maybe go on LinkedIn because everyone's posting about what not to do with AI on LinkedIn. So like maybe that's a good place to start too. Like you learn every day about what is like, obviously Chacha, bt, and all of these things. So lots of people calling people out for bad AI there. So maybe that's actually as annoying as it is, as like a day-to-day LinkedIn user maybe be on there a little bit more so you can see what people are saying. [00:49:59] I mean. [00:50:00] I, I, I will say I learn a ton about AI stuff on there and, and it is, a lot of it is intimidating, but there's people who are sharing basic AI stuff, but I think, don't feel like you have to get into building an AI agent tomorrow. Start small. And I think a big thing that helped me is like, ask people who you know are using ai. [00:50:20] If you have a coworker who you know is, uh, using AI in a cool way, ask them how I think. I think there's like a version of people feeling like almost embarrassed that they don't know how to use it very well, or they don't feel really comfortable. But we're so early with this that like if someone came to me and was like, how are you using this? [00:50:39] I would be so excited. I'd be like, oh wow. I don't feel like an expert, but if you wanna learn from me, that's awesome and I would love to show you how I'm using it and maybe we can learn something together on like a way that we can have this improved. So I think people talking about it more and saying, Hey, I'm feeling behind with this. [00:50:55] You seem to know this really well. Is there something that we can do here? And then I will [00:51:00] say, um, I just learned what actual, what iPASS actually means. But those, those like basic really simple AI agent kind of builders that are, so we, we just did a webinar with Relay App, which is one, um, there, I know there's Trey, there's Zapier agents, there's a bunch of them coming up. [00:51:16] But I do think that getting started with something like that, even if it's not like a true AI agent, but starting to think through. Building like workflows with ai, with like an LLM step in it to do basic functions. Um, the one that we just hosted was super basic. It was basically like looking at HubSpot, um, finding all the meeting notes or like emails and things that have happened, and then sending like a meeting prep summary to Slack. [00:51:40] It's not complicated. It's really easy, but I think thinking through small things that you're, you think, oh, I wish I had that, or This feels like a pain point in my day to day. Seeing if you can kind of start playing around with some of those tools and start building out workflows that actually help you. [00:51:56] I think those are the two best ways to start, and I think that's, [00:52:00] that's honestly, like, that's where I'm at with ai. Like I'm, I'm at that level where I'm starting to just start to think through what could I automate and enable, and. And so I think that's a good place to start getting really comfortable with it and start seeing what's possible. [00:52:14] And then you're at a good baseline. So if things change tomorrow, or if things change in three months, you're at a good baseline of being comfortable with AI and tooling and what's out there so that you can kind of level up to the next level when needed. [00:52:27] Phil: Yeah, great advice. I feel like when, when we talk about this too, like just a couple years ago, there wasn't really any good. Courses like that's the only thing I would add to your answer. Like there's a lot of really smart folks in the last couple years. Who've built courses around this. And, um, I had, uh, Brittany Mueller on the podcast, uh, early last year. [00:52:47] I was gonna say this year, but no damn, uh, time is flying. She was in episode 1 0 3. She's a former SEO scientist at Moz. I. She like was really early on like the machine learning, uh, bandwagon, [00:53:00] and she's been all in on, on ai and she has a, a course on, on Maven. This is a, a free plug for, for Britney, but, um, I, I've actually, uh, considered taking this myself. [00:53:10] A lot of folks, um, that I know have taken it and she, it's called actionable AI for marketers. And you like develop actionable AI skills to elevate your marketing. And SEO, she obviously has like a, an SEO focus on this, but there's like other courses like this now, today from people that you trust that, you know, just a couple years ago everyone was trying to figure this shit out. [00:53:30] Uh, if so, if you are that person who is a bit behind or you feel like you're buying on that adoption curve there, there's folks that, you know, have actionable stuff to, to help you get a, a leg up there. But I, I think your answer is, uh, is really great also. Um, I got two last questions for you. Uh, Ken. It's been a super fun chat. [00:53:49] Um, [00:53:50] Why Generalists Are Thriving in the Age of AI --- [00:53:50] Phil: we mentioned your background there, but like you've got design onboarding, partnerships now business ops. A lot of folks listening are trying to figure out what transfers, what scales, what matters. Like what's this thread that's helped you evaluate tools, not just in that research that you did with all the note takers, but um, you know, from, from a human lens, like bringing it back to the, the podcast mission there. [00:54:14] Like, especially when there's like pressure to keep up and stay on top of, you know, the constantly evolving world of MarTech tools. What are your thoughts there? [00:54:24] Kim: Yeah, I think. I would imagine that most ops people might have a, a more similar background to mine of like being in a bunch of different roles and kind of landing in ops. And I think that honestly for me, even a year or two ago, I was kinda freaked out about being like a generalist and not having like some specialty or going really, really deep into one area of a business. [00:54:44] And I think ops people might feel that way in a way too, or might have felt that way. And I think, um. We, I, I personally, am now feeling so much more comfortable with that. I'm actually thinking, I'm so glad I didn't freak out and go like, you know, specialize or [00:55:00] like try to specialize in something two years ago. [00:55:02] Because I think that we are seeing, and as AI becomes bigger, we're gonna see a, the rise of a generalist who is a, a person who can think strategically about a bunch of different areas of the business and think how can I implement the best processes to make this more efficient? We're seeing. You know, AI not, I don't wanna like say like take over people's jobs, but like there, there we are gonna see more lean and efficient teams. [00:55:26] And having people who have a big background or background in a lot of different things is I think a skill and a thing that people are gonna start looking for more. Um, and so I think that if you're in ops wondering if you should specialize, wondering if you should branch out doing something else. I think actually, um. [00:55:47] Feel confident that having that broad skillset and knowing about so many different parts of the business is actually gonna be huge for people as AI continues to develop. So I think having that skillset plus [00:56:00] developing skills in AI is like the best place to be actually for SAS or business right now. [00:56:05] Phil: Very cool. I'm, I'm thinking of like a, a title for, for the episode and it's like the rise of the generalists in the AI education gap or something like that. But I. Yeah, it's been super fun. Kim, I love your, your lens on this and, uh, we'll link out to the big, uh, research that you did. Folks can get, download the guide, but, uh, check out the video that you did and I'm excited to see the, the next parts of that. [00:56:28] You probably have, uh, the next part of that out by the time this drops, but, um, if we do, we will, we will make sure to link out to that. [00:56:37] 11 Happiness --- [00:56:37] Phil: Last question for you. You're a business ops leader, content creator, startup, generalist. Uh, you're also a puzzle master and you play beach volleyball. Recently started learning archery, which is a pretty unique one for us on the show. [00:56:49] Uh, one question we ask everyone is how do you remain happy and successful in your career, and how do you find balance between all the stuff you're working on while staying happy? [00:56:59] Kim: Yeah, I [00:57:00] think balance is something that I am still trying to find. It was a New Year's resolution for me to be better about that. And we're in April right now, and I have not done that at all. So balance is tough. I think that I have always been a person who is really excited about work and solving problems. [00:57:17] And so I think the, the happiness piece of it I can speak to, because I think for me, I've been at Arrows now for four years, um, and I. I love my job here so much. It's, we're early stage startup. I'm wearing a ton of different hats. I'm doing a lot of different things in the business and I'm loving it. And I think the thing that makes me love it is I feel like I am moving the needle every single day and I am like coming into work and solving problems and helping drive the business forward. [00:57:44] And for me, and I think a lot of people that matters a ton to like feel valuable and feel like I'm making a difference. And so even though I'm still figuring out the balance part of it. I, the, the reason I'm having a hard time with balance is because I want to do more, because I'm having a really good [00:58:00] time and feeling like I can make an impact. [00:58:02] And I think that's just a big thing that, you know, people and I have struggled at different points in my career with feeling, uh, satisfied in my job or wondering if I am, if it's me or if it's the culture or whatever it is. And I think for me, what I found is. If I feel like I'm doing valuable work and being recognized it like for recognized for it. [00:58:22] So if people are also like at the company noticing the work that I'm doing, I think that is like the best setup you can have. And I would also say for people who aren't happy, maybe like start thinking about if you have that and if you can start finding a way to, to get that either at your current company or at a different company. [00:58:41] Because I think that's like the critical piece that's made the biggest difference for me. [00:58:45] Phil: Love it. Really powerful answer. Yeah. Feel free to plug arrows a little bit here. I was checking out the sales room, uh, that you guys just launched recently, but yeah, feel free. [00:58:54] Kim: Yeah. Uh, so Arrows is a, a customer onboarding plan and digital sales room [00:59:00] tool that is built for teams that run on HubSpot. At least for right now, only HubSpot users can use it. Um, but basically if you have a sales team or a customer success team, um, that's using HubSpot to manage those processes. You can send customer facing digital sales rooms or customer onboarding plans directly to your customer. [00:59:15] And then all of that data feeds back to HubSpot. We're layering on top, uh, some AI right now where we can see all the activity on the HubSpot record and suggest updates or content to be added to the sales room or onboarding plans. So it's just coming into, um, kind of bridge the gap between the CRM and what's actually happening with the customer during the sales and onboarding processes. [00:59:37] Um, and then bringing in some ai, AI automation to proactively suggest like the right next steps and right things that should be happening in those, in those processes too. [00:59:45] Phil: Super cool. I, I saw your post, uh, on LinkedIn recently about like the record breaking quarter or that you. I loved your note about like the, the growth loop, like the unintentional growth loop that you have from acquisition, which [01:00:00] comes from people who were onboarding a tool and the people onboarding it were using arrows, and they're just like, shit, this was so smooth and I need to check out what that tool is and we need to get that in our process. [01:00:11] And it was like a happy coincidence maybe, or maybe it was all planned out by your founder. I know he is a smart dude. [01:00:18] Kim: It's, it's like, uh, it's the best because we have gotten it here and there. We've gotten people that are like, oh yeah, we were onboarded to a vendor using arrows. And we loved the onboarding experience so much. Uh, we had one person that was like, man, or they were like, hell, did I feel onboarded by this other vendor? [01:00:34] And we're like, the best thing that we could hear. So we've gotten it a little bit, but, um, so this was March that I was talking about and we just saw like a huge influx in people who were coming in because they had been onboarded or been sold using arrows. And so that as a person who's been here since the, the early days of, of arrows, that's like the most fulfilling thing for us to see is that people are having great experiences using our product and then wanting to come in and use it for themselves and [01:01:00] use it for their own customers. [01:01:00] So it's been awesome. [01:01:02] Phil: It's pretty awesome. Uh, social proof there for, for your landing page there. [01:01:06] Kim: Yeah, exactly. [01:01:07] Phil: Awesome. Kim, this is super fun. I really appreciate your time. Thanks so much for joining us. [01:01:11] Kim: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me on.