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Carl: Alright.

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Hello everyone.

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Thank you for joining us for the
September edition of this Month In React.

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As we, uh, get together and recap
what's going on with React, react

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Native and the web, we're coming to
you live from Reactiflux, the place for

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professional developers using React.

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I am Carl.

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I'm a staff product developer and
freelance community leader here in

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Reactiflux, where I do community programs
like these events and build tools to

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help keep the community operating.

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Mark: Hi, I'm Mark.

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My day job is working at
Replay.io and digging into the

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guts of React and its internals.

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And in my copious amounts of spare
time, I'm currently rewriting the

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guts of Immer for faster performance.

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Carl: Yeah, you did a live stream on that.

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That was cool.

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Mark: Yeah, that was a lot of fun.

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Mo: And my name is Mo.

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I am the head of Mobile at Thedo.

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And yeah, I spent a lot of time
in the React and React native

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communities, speak at conferences
here and there, and organize the React

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Native London Meetup and conference,
which is coming up in November.

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Carl: Yeah, more on that later.

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Let's jump into some new releases.

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We're gonna talk more about this in
depth in the main content section,

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but Tan Stack start has released a 1.0
rc, so that should be coming together.

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I've tried playing with this a little
bit and didn't make it too far.

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It just ended up being a larger
task than I really imagined,

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but I'm excited about it.

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Mark: React Window.

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Just put out a version 2.0.

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Brian Vaughn did a pretty major rewrite
of the library to try to simplify

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some of the props and add some nice
built-in features like automizing

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of the list items and auto resizing.

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So you no longer need a
resize plugin to handle that.

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Carl: Oh, that's nice.

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Okay.

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Yeah, and react window is
efficiently rendering large lists.

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Mark: It's virtualizing lists.

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Yeah, so you got a list of,
you know, a million items.

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You can only show a hundred on
screen at once, that sort of thing.

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Also, on that note, Apollo client
for GraphQL just put out version 4.0.

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I know this was a, a pretty
major effort to try to improve

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the packaging, consolidate.

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Remove a bunch of deprecated features,
so that should be a significant

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improvement if you're using Apollo.

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And on my side, I actually just shipped
a Redux toolkit 2.9 earlier this month.

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The biggest thing there is I made a
bunch of perf optimizations to RTK

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query, especially for cases where
you've got a lot of components that

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are reading from the same cache entry.

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And we also added a few new options and
bug fixes, but the perf improvement and

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some in-flight requests cleanup was,
were some of the biggest pieces there.

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Carl: Okay.

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Yeah.

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Not too many new releases for open
source libraries this month, I guess.

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Mark: Well there, there
probably were a few more.

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We just didn't collect them.

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Carl: Yeah, I wish there were a
little bit more consistent standards

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across the ecosystem for how to
publish a list of new releases.

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Like the GitHub release is, it
is pretty good, but it's still

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only like 60% hit rate, I guess.

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Something like that.

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It feels like.

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Cool though.

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Let's go into our main content.

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Can you tell us a bit about React updates?

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Mark: I don't actually have any real
details on this, but Rick Hanlon from the

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React team tweeted out like yesterday,
a screenshot of himself apparently

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working on release notes for React
19.2, so I would assume it's fair to

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say that it's probably coming out in
the near future associated with that

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and potentially coming out in 19.2.

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Although the timing may be a little too
soon, we have two React features that

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have graduated from the experimental
branch to the Canary branches.

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The first one is the
new activity component.

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This has been around in some form
in in the experimental branches for.

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Probably multiple years at this point.

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It was originally known as the offscreen
component, and then they officially

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renamed it to the activity component
maybe about six or eight months ago.

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And this is gonna be a pretty big deal.

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So one of the issues with React
has always been that built-in state

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is managed at the component level.

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And if you unmount a component,
then it, you know, both cleans

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up the effects and they go away.

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But the state that was in that
component goes away as well.

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And so that's one of the reasons why
there's been, you know, so much use of

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external state libraries like, you know,
Redux and Juice end and Jot and MobX

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over the years is because in order for
state to persist, you either needed.

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To have the state live outside UAC
component tree, or you needed to

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hoist it up to the top and pass it
down via context or props and if

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you unmount a section of the tree
that DA and that data could go away.

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So the activity component is going
to allow you to essentially disable

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and hide a section of the component
tree, but react will keep around

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the state for those components.

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And in fact this actually kind of
goes along with some of the strict

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mode stuff that people have, you
know, complained about for years.

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The activity component will
also unmount the effects for

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the components that got hidden.

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People have complained for years,
you know, strict mode, double running

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effects, you know, shows bugs and,
and all the other things like that.

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But part of the point of that has been
to work towards, eventually this feature

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will come out where you can toggle
the activity component on and off.

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And React will run the UNM mounts
because the components aren't

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fully mounted, therefore, they
shouldn't have active effects going.

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But it will keep the state
for those components alive.

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And so you can imagine this could be
useful for a couple of different things.

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One is like a tabs component.

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Right now, if you have a tabs component,
you either stop rendering the other

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tabs completely as you switch back and
forth, or you use something like CSS

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display, none, which means the tabs
are active and in the page, even though

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they're not even being displayed.

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And so with the activity component,
you can say I want to pre-render

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the content for the other tabs, but
it's not actually attached to the

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page until we swap back and forth.

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But they could still persist the state.

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So if someone goes back and
forth between the different

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tabs and makes some edits, then.

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You know, that still stays alive.

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There's a comment in the chat
that the naming choice for the

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component seems very strange to me.

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I agree.

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I didn't like it either.

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There was some rationale in the PR
that actually renamed it to activity.

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I don't remember what it, what it was
specifically off the top of my head,

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but they, I think it was that like, it's
more about is the component active rather

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than is it quote unquote off screen.

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Yeah.

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But I, I don't entirely buy that myself.

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Carl: Yeah, right.

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Because this is like hitting that midpoint
between that decision point of do you

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render null or do you render the dom
with styling to suppress its visibility.

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And so I guess this is like smack
in the middle, like the internal

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representation of all of that.

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Dom remains.

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But you don't use styling to hide it,
which is great for cross-platform stuff.

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'cause like there wasn't a
cross-platform way to hide

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something as far as I know before.

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Mark: So if I, if I look back at the
last React Labs post from April where

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they talk about, you know, the plans
for the activity component, there's a

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section there that says, in the future
we may add more modes for activity.

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One of them could be content visible, but
keep it unmounted and pause dom updates.

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Another is the ability to destroy
state for hidden activities if

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too much memory is being used.

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So I think part of the mindset is it's
not just like a bullion toggle, it's

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we're shipping with two mode options
that are like a bullion toggle for now.

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But we envision some possible
additional modes for this down the road.

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Mo: And, and you know, this is like
particularly interesting to me because

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this has like been a long standing
problem in the React native space

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when you're dealing with native apps.

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And I, I doubt this will work out of
the box with React Native, but I think

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it's gonna be one of those things
which will eventually get there.

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And hopefully the new architecture
makes this easy for the, the core

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team to adopt and like make sure that
those APIs are working correctly.

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But it's a classic issue, especially
when in Native world you're dealing

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with this concept of like stacks
of pages on top of each other.

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You really don't want the, the stacks
that aren't visible or the pages that

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aren't visible in your stack showing
or getting all of the DOM updates,

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or in this case this, the updates
to the actual screens whilst they're

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inactive because that's a massive
performance bottleneck on native devices.

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And so this type of thing, people
have massed over it in the most

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dirty ways possible and hacky ways
possible in, in the React native world.

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It's been like a longstanding
problem because if you, you know,

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unmount them and then remount them
and reestablish the state, there's

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sometimes like a flashing white screen
before the actual components reload.

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Then you need to delay the
transition because all of these

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things are like transition with
page transitions and native.

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So it's basically to say there's a lot
of complexity and if there's a native

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React way to deal with this, that ties
into navigation on the native device

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as well, then I think it's gonna be a
game changer and it'll simplify and fix

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a lot of performance issues that people
often have with their React native apps.

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Mark: Yeah, I, I know we've, we've had a
couple of open issues on the `react-redux`

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repo with people complaining that.

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Components that are off, quote
unquote offscreen in the React native

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stack are still subscribed to Redux
updates and taking up perfects from

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running all the subscription logic and
asking for us to add random options

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to make that toggle or something.

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And so if you know, the activity
component ought to be the

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built-in solution for that.

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And so that would actually means we don't
have to do anything, which is great.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Mo: And you know, like some state
management libraries have adopted

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some work around components that
you can use for that, but it

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comes with trade-offs, right?

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And ideally, your state management library
really should not worry about this.

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This feels like a core react
primitive problem rather than a

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state management library problem.

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To me,

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Carl: back to what you said about like the
layering of UI and performance problems

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and like listening to events and things.

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Fun fact, I've chatted with some
people who did React native or like

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React UI for automotive companies
and that was a problem they dealt

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with like sometimes for certain cars.

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The reason the UI sucks sometimes
is because of this issue and

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because it's rendering multiple
UIs on top of each other and doing

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all sorts of weird, crazy stuff.

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There's two

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Mo: devices that are
particularly bad for that.

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One is Smart TVs and
the other one is cars.

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And the reason for that is both of
them are awful processors and like

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they really cheap out on the hardware
because they're cutting costs everywhere

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in the actual like manufacturing bit.

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And so something that might run
in your web browser with your

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laptop that like has like several
hundred megabytes of RAM per tab.

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Will, you know, be restricted to 50
megabytes of ram or it'll get killed

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by the operating system that lives on
the automotive car infotainment system.

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And this is a big problem for any,
like one of those types of devices.

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And I think a lot of those, you'll
be surprised, run on React and like

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web-based platforms or sometimes even
rec native, and it's a big, big issue.

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So I think something like this.

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You know, you can fix those issues, but
it's hacky and not everyone will do it.

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So then you'll get really crappy
infotainment systems, like you said, Carl.

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So,

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Carl: okay.

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That's probably long enough
talking about activity though.

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Mark: So one other, one other feature
that's migrated from experimental to

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Canary, I just saw this one a few minutes
ago, is the `useEffectEvent`  hook.

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This is something that the React team
has also talked about for a while,

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and I actually didn't even know that
any progress was being made on this

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until I just saw the PR announcement.

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I'm gonna describe this very badly.

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Someone should correct me on this,
but it's almost like a used memo for

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callbacks where you'll get the latest
reference to a. Callback inside when

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you execute it, but you get a consistent
function reference back when you use it.

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And so this avoids the need to do a
workaround where you're like, main, where

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the, the callback is reading something
off of a ref to get the latest value.

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I know that this is something that
had been proposed a while back and

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then the initial proposal got killed
and they said, we'll, we'll come

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back and we'll rethink this later.

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And apparently later is finally now.

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Carl: Later is now.

231
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That's great.

232
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Yeah.

233
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Interesting.

234
00:12:51,598 --> 00:12:54,958
I'm, I'm not super up to date on
this, so I'm just reading the docs

235
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right now to understand it better.

236
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Interesting.

237
00:12:58,048 --> 00:13:01,438
The, I definitely know
that I have used refs.

238
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You know, red values off
refs because of weird issues.

239
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So I'm not quite groking how this solves
this immediately, but that's interesting.

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00:13:09,608 --> 00:13:14,168
Mark: So, and okay, so a partial
example, and again, this is me going

241
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off the top of my head and not even
trying to read the post at the moment.

242
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So, if you have like a used callback that
needs to access a value, you either let

243
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the callback get recreated every time,
which in case there's no point in the

244
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use callback at all, or you have the
item in the dependency array, which means

245
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it's gonna, the callback is gonna get
recreated still when the value changes

246
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or you don't rate it all, and oops, now
you have a steel value, which is bad.

247
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Carl: Right.

248
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Mark: So what happens when you want
a consistent callback reference that

249
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never changes, but it still needs
to see the latest value in order to

250
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do something useful when it runs.

251
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So one workaround for this is you
put a use ref a couple lines up

252
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in the component that runs first.

253
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You assign to it even in like another use
effect before the one that you care about.

254
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That means it gets updated.

255
00:14:10,618 --> 00:14:14,368
Now you've produced this kind of weird
sequence of events where I know that

256
00:14:14,368 --> 00:14:18,118
the ref has already been updated before
the callback ends up getting run.

257
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And so part of the point of this
hook is to eliminate the need to

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do that little dance yourself.

259
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Carl: Yeah.

260
00:14:25,258 --> 00:14:25,468
Okay.

261
00:14:25,468 --> 00:14:26,398
That makes sense.

262
00:14:26,518 --> 00:14:30,628
I'm reading this list of
caveats and it seems tricky.

263
00:14:31,168 --> 00:14:35,278
The only call inside effects define it
just before the effect that uses them.

264
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Do not pass them to other
components or hooks.

265
00:14:37,978 --> 00:14:42,238
Do not use `useEffectEvent` to
avoid specifying dependencies.

266
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This can hide bugs.

267
00:14:43,048 --> 00:14:43,408
Sure.

268
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Use it only to extract logic that
does not depend on changing value.

269
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That's quite a set of constraints.

270
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Mark: When the new docs came out, and Dan
and a couple others wrote the tutorial.

271
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There were a couple pages in there
that actually referenced this hook

272
00:14:59,858 --> 00:15:03,218
as the solution for some of the
problems that were being described.

273
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Even though the hook didn't exist
yet, some of the docs pages also try

274
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to make the terminology very unique,
where they talk about lowercase e

275
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effects as in like, you know, just the
generic concept of a side effect versus

276
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a capital E effect, which is like a
somehow react specific concept that I

277
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don't think the docs ever fully defined.

278
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And so in, in a way like the use
effect event hook, is the React team

279
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trained to somehow solidify this.

280
00:15:40,898 --> 00:15:46,148
Notional react effect term in a way.

281
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Carl: Interesting.

282
00:15:47,108 --> 00:15:47,558
Interesting.

283
00:15:47,948 --> 00:15:51,068
Mark: Alright, two other little data
points and, and updates Worth noting.

284
00:15:51,248 --> 00:15:56,528
The React team merged a work in progress
PR to the compiler to try to do and

285
00:15:56,528 --> 00:16:01,238
to try to automatically infer function
names for things like callbacks that you

286
00:16:01,238 --> 00:16:05,438
pass to use effect so that you know when
they show, like show up like in a stack

287
00:16:05,438 --> 00:16:07,958
trace, they are nicer and easier to read.

288
00:16:08,478 --> 00:16:12,258
And then the docs now have a page
for the Eslint plugin of react hooks,

289
00:16:12,258 --> 00:16:15,438
including a bunch of information on
all the different rules that it cover

290
00:16:15,888 --> 00:16:19,308
and that includes issues that'll
get flagged by the compiler as well.

291
00:16:19,728 --> 00:16:23,958
Carl: Also, yeah, I wanna say on the
compiler inferring function names like

292
00:16:24,468 --> 00:16:29,928
that is like one of the most quietly mind
blowing things I have seen in a long time.

293
00:16:29,958 --> 00:16:33,738
I actually commented on the
PR to ask like, what if this

294
00:16:33,738 --> 00:16:35,598
became a TC 39 proposal?

295
00:16:35,598 --> 00:16:41,418
Because this would have saved me days
of effort over the life of my career.

296
00:16:41,418 --> 00:16:45,258
If there had been a little bit more
data about what the heck is throwing

297
00:16:45,258 --> 00:16:48,048
an error instead of just like
cannot read property of undefined.

298
00:16:48,618 --> 00:16:53,058
Oh thi this is quietly one of the mo
going to be one of the most impactful

299
00:16:53,538 --> 00:16:55,338
changes in a long time I think.

300
00:16:55,788 --> 00:16:58,428
Mark: I have actually, even just
recently in some of the Immer work

301
00:16:58,428 --> 00:17:02,358
that I've been doing, gone in and
replaced anonymous arrow functions

302
00:17:02,358 --> 00:17:06,468
with a named function just to try to
get a better name and a stack trace.

303
00:17:06,983 --> 00:17:07,463
Carl: Totally.

304
00:17:07,523 --> 00:17:08,513
Yeah, a hundred percent.

305
00:17:08,573 --> 00:17:11,873
And the annoyance of assigning
an arrow function to a variable

306
00:17:11,873 --> 00:17:15,203
versus using a named function and
how those are not the same thing.

307
00:17:15,653 --> 00:17:16,073
Mo: Cool.

308
00:17:16,133 --> 00:17:21,323
Let's move on to some React native news,
which has gotten people a, a fair bit

309
00:17:21,323 --> 00:17:24,863
excited, which is one of the talks that
was at React Universe comps that happened

310
00:17:24,863 --> 00:17:29,333
at the beginning of this month called
React Native 1.0 is on the horizon.

311
00:17:29,543 --> 00:17:34,973
This is pretty exciting stuff because
it's anecdotally, and I'm sure many

312
00:17:34,973 --> 00:17:37,073
people have had the same experience as me.

313
00:17:37,463 --> 00:17:41,153
One of the biggest things that people
oftentimes use, which is a really,

314
00:17:41,153 --> 00:17:45,863
really, you know, straw man argument, but
nonetheless is there, is that, oh, react

315
00:17:45,863 --> 00:17:47,688
native's not stable because it's not 1.0.

316
00:17:48,338 --> 00:17:52,088
I kid you not, when I say three weeks
ago we were talking about starting a new

317
00:17:52,088 --> 00:17:56,438
project here at Theo and someone brought
this up as a reason not to use React

318
00:17:56,438 --> 00:17:59,528
Native as one of like the prospective
clients that we had because another

319
00:17:59,528 --> 00:18:03,548
company who was trying to push them to use
Flutter had told them, oh, it's not stable

320
00:18:03,548 --> 00:18:05,733
because it's not 1.0 da da da da da.

321
00:18:06,488 --> 00:18:08,798
And you know, there's a little
bit of fear mongering around this.

322
00:18:09,068 --> 00:18:12,548
The reality of it is that React Native has
been around for way too long and it's been

323
00:18:12,548 --> 00:18:17,108
used in many, many serious production apps
for, you know, several, several years now.

324
00:18:17,468 --> 00:18:21,008
And so I think this is something that
a lot of people have discussed with the

325
00:18:21,008 --> 00:18:23,078
React Native Core team over the years.

326
00:18:23,288 --> 00:18:25,178
And you know, there's always
been a bit of a reluctance on

327
00:18:25,178 --> 00:18:27,068
going to 1.0 for various reasons.

328
00:18:27,338 --> 00:18:29,348
Um, and so this talk is really
interesting 'cause they talk a

329
00:18:29,348 --> 00:18:32,228
little bit about the history of that
and what the reasons are for that.

330
00:18:32,558 --> 00:18:36,878
But really what's happened over the last
year is that the release process for React

331
00:18:36,878 --> 00:18:38,648
Native has been significantly streamlined.

332
00:18:38,768 --> 00:18:41,168
So there are now six releases.

333
00:18:41,523 --> 00:18:42,813
Being targeted for every single year.

334
00:18:42,813 --> 00:18:46,863
So every other month there being a release
from two releases, which was what we

335
00:18:46,863 --> 00:18:51,153
had in 2024 and you know, a lot more
sporadic releases in the previous years.

336
00:18:51,153 --> 00:18:55,173
So there was no really never a schedule
to it before where, whereas now there is

337
00:18:55,413 --> 00:18:58,383
one of the things that's been happening
over the years, but really accelerated

338
00:18:58,383 --> 00:19:02,493
over the last, I'd say year, is that
a lot of the APIs are being really

339
00:19:02,493 --> 00:19:06,183
stabilized, reduced, and the surfaces
are being completely trimmed down.

340
00:19:06,423 --> 00:19:10,443
And so the whole idea with this is
less API surfaces externally means that

341
00:19:10,893 --> 00:19:15,003
there's less likelihood for breaking
changes in the long term, which helps

342
00:19:15,003 --> 00:19:18,273
them feel confident to say, Hey,
this is a 1.0 or reaching out sort

343
00:19:18,273 --> 00:19:21,933
of monumental point where they can
actively say, Hey, this is a 1.0 release.

344
00:19:22,443 --> 00:19:24,513
And the other thing is
that the React native.

345
00:19:25,013 --> 00:19:29,483
Pipelines for building React native
Core was quite a manual process in the

346
00:19:29,483 --> 00:19:34,433
past, and so what they've done in sort
of recent years is worked on introducing

347
00:19:34,433 --> 00:19:38,753
a lot more end-to-end testing, some
workflows that would test our C bugs and

348
00:19:38,753 --> 00:19:40,703
you know, breaking changes much quicker.

349
00:19:40,703 --> 00:19:44,243
And so that's really been a lot
of the efforts behind the scenes,

350
00:19:44,243 --> 00:19:46,823
which you won't see in features and
functionalities, but it's really been to

351
00:19:46,823 --> 00:19:48,323
the workflow for building React native.

352
00:19:48,653 --> 00:19:52,523
And so a lot of this is really
moving us towards that direction

353
00:19:52,523 --> 00:19:53,753
where there can be at 1.0.

354
00:19:54,143 --> 00:19:55,793
And so the conversation isn't.

355
00:19:56,183 --> 00:19:59,213
Potentially, hey, there's gonna
be a 1.0 in the next few months.

356
00:19:59,483 --> 00:20:03,083
Maybe not even in the next year, but
it is somewhere there where they're

357
00:20:03,083 --> 00:20:07,373
feeling like, okay, we can go ahead to,
to basically releasing a 1.0 for React

358
00:20:07,373 --> 00:20:09,233
native at some point in the near future.

359
00:20:09,233 --> 00:20:11,933
So the React team's gonna be, the React
native team is gonna be working on this

360
00:20:11,933 --> 00:20:15,863
quite extensively and trying to reach
a point where they're happy and so

361
00:20:15,863 --> 00:20:18,623
they're gonna be working with a bunch
of people to start to potentially put

362
00:20:18,623 --> 00:20:19,943
a date on it, which is very exciting.

363
00:20:20,273 --> 00:20:21,023
Carl: That is really exciting.

364
00:20:21,113 --> 00:20:22,853
That's a long time towards 1.0.

365
00:20:22,853 --> 00:20:27,683
But like it would've felt premature
I think for them to get, to call

366
00:20:27,683 --> 00:20:30,563
it a 1.0 before, or at least they
would've had to do a lot of breaking.

367
00:20:30,863 --> 00:20:33,233
Mark: Even just waiting for
the new architecture to be the

368
00:20:33,263 --> 00:20:34,643
default, I think was a big thing.

369
00:20:36,023 --> 00:20:36,113
Mm-hmm.

370
00:20:36,353 --> 00:20:36,373
Yeah, definitely.

371
00:20:36,653 --> 00:20:36,983
Carl: Yeah.

372
00:20:37,043 --> 00:20:40,583
And that really seems like it was
a meaningful, a meaningful reason

373
00:20:40,613 --> 00:20:44,483
to delay, like it was such a large
disruption to so many different parts

374
00:20:44,483 --> 00:20:46,883
of the ecosystem, but also so essential.

375
00:20:47,213 --> 00:20:50,603
Yeah, it feels more truly native
under the new architecture, rather

376
00:20:50,603 --> 00:20:55,223
than having to like serialize
between two independent systems.

377
00:20:55,658 --> 00:20:59,408
It kind of reminds me of like when
Docker launched because it was a Linux

378
00:20:59,408 --> 00:21:01,778
feature, you know, a Linux kernel feature.

379
00:21:02,048 --> 00:21:05,558
I remember for years they had like a,
if you wanted to use it on Mac, you

380
00:21:05,558 --> 00:21:08,648
had to technically run a vm, which
introduced all sorts of weirdness.

381
00:21:09,038 --> 00:21:12,908
And so that feels, I dunno, this feels
technically similar to me in how they

382
00:21:12,908 --> 00:21:16,448
like figured out how to not have two
independent systems communicating

383
00:21:17,018 --> 00:21:18,548
with each other in that kind of way.

384
00:21:18,548 --> 00:21:22,058
And now that they've cleared
that hurdle, they can get towards

385
00:21:22,058 --> 00:21:23,498
a greater level of stability.

386
00:21:24,038 --> 00:21:24,428
Cool.

387
00:21:24,728 --> 00:21:25,088
Awesome.

388
00:21:25,688 --> 00:21:29,018
Mark: One other thing that actually kinda
reminds me of, so we had squiggle conf a

389
00:21:29,108 --> 00:21:33,158
week and a half ago and one of the talks
was from Shelley Vohr, who's part of the

390
00:21:33,158 --> 00:21:39,188
Electron core team and she did a talk
about automating systems and you know,

391
00:21:39,188 --> 00:21:44,198
things like security and repeatability
and what happens if the system goes down.

392
00:21:44,768 --> 00:21:49,358
And it sounds like a lot of the effort
that's been involved on the RN side really

393
00:21:49,358 --> 00:21:55,058
is about CI pipelines and automation
and turning a manual release process

394
00:21:55,058 --> 00:21:57,008
into an automated release process.

395
00:21:57,458 --> 00:22:01,538
And you know, having that consistency
is a pretty big deal here.

396
00:22:02,013 --> 00:22:02,493
Carl: Cool.

397
00:22:02,793 --> 00:22:03,753
Drama post?

398
00:22:04,233 --> 00:22:05,073
Mark: Drama post.

399
00:22:05,673 --> 00:22:10,323
Carl: Yeah, so there was a recent
post called React Won by default and

400
00:22:10,323 --> 00:22:12,663
it's killing front end innovation.

401
00:22:13,023 --> 00:22:13,653
Mark: To some extent.

402
00:22:13,653 --> 00:22:15,363
There's nothing new in this post.

403
00:22:15,423 --> 00:22:17,823
People have been making
complaints about this for years.

404
00:22:18,003 --> 00:22:21,603
It's a pretty well written post,
and it did make all the rounds

405
00:22:21,603 --> 00:22:26,553
and spawned massive 800 comment,
hacker news thread and responses on

406
00:22:26,553 --> 00:22:27,963
Twitter and a bunch of other places.

407
00:22:28,383 --> 00:22:35,253
The first argument is that React itself
has kind of stagnated that it was a

408
00:22:35,253 --> 00:22:40,563
big deal in 2013 when the virtual do
solved problems with Angular, but that

409
00:22:40,773 --> 00:22:46,173
React really hasn't innovated since then
claim, and that things like the React

410
00:22:46,173 --> 00:22:48,423
compiler are a bit more of a bandaid.

411
00:22:48,808 --> 00:22:53,848
Whereas other frameworks like solid
and spelt and quick are doing new

412
00:22:53,848 --> 00:22:58,888
and innovative things around signals
and ruins and resum ability and

413
00:22:59,038 --> 00:23:01,408
other approaches to updating the dom.

414
00:23:01,558 --> 00:23:03,298
But the rest of the argument is that.

415
00:23:04,418 --> 00:23:07,838
The typical discussion these
days for a project is, okay,

416
00:23:07,868 --> 00:23:09,458
which framework should we use?

417
00:23:09,908 --> 00:23:16,028
Well, let's use React because it has
the biggest ecosystem, because there's

418
00:23:16,028 --> 00:23:21,368
the most developers available because
AI are familiar with it, because there's

419
00:23:21,368 --> 00:23:24,068
lots of libraries out there, et cetera.

420
00:23:24,488 --> 00:23:29,618
And the phrase that always comes to mind
and for me is the old one about no one

421
00:23:29,618 --> 00:23:35,468
ever got fired for choosing IBM that back
in the day, like IBM was the safe choice

422
00:23:35,468 --> 00:23:39,158
for, you know what, whatever tools it
is sort of that same principle today.

423
00:23:39,188 --> 00:23:43,268
Like most people are not
generally choosing React.

424
00:23:43,838 --> 00:23:49,178
Because they're specifically excited
about suspense or transitions

425
00:23:49,178 --> 00:23:50,948
or other things like that.

426
00:23:50,948 --> 00:23:54,248
It's the industry standard,
so we'll stick with that.

427
00:23:54,758 --> 00:23:59,348
And so the article argues that
because of that, because the mindset

428
00:23:59,348 --> 00:24:04,358
is used, react by default, that it's
sort of choking out other frameworks

429
00:24:04,358 --> 00:24:08,378
that have had more innovation
and newer interesting approaches.

430
00:24:08,738 --> 00:24:13,388
And so it ends up offering some
suggestions for things to evaluate

431
00:24:13,388 --> 00:24:16,658
about scaling and performance
and team skills and whatnot.

432
00:24:16,928 --> 00:24:20,558
And then tries to counter
argue the typical like size

433
00:24:20,558 --> 00:24:22,358
of the ecosystem type points.

434
00:24:22,748 --> 00:24:26,228
It's a well-written article,
like it's not flame bait.

435
00:24:26,228 --> 00:24:31,058
The title is is well out there, but it
makes a pretty good actual point and it

436
00:24:31,058 --> 00:24:34,298
spawned a lot of discussion, like I said,
hacker News and a bunch of other places.

437
00:24:34,688 --> 00:24:38,318
But I think the really interesting
counterpoint to all that.

438
00:24:38,813 --> 00:24:43,913
Is Rick Hanlon from the React team
put up a very long thread on Blue

439
00:24:43,913 --> 00:24:49,073
Sky, which really should be its own
blog post at this point where he

440
00:24:49,073 --> 00:24:54,833
says that all the frameworks know how
to update the do efficiently React

441
00:24:54,833 --> 00:24:59,333
has innovated in the past, but it's
also, it was so good in the past.

442
00:24:59,723 --> 00:25:03,143
People are actually kind of ignoring
the innovations they've done since

443
00:25:03,203 --> 00:25:08,423
2017 and 2018, and that reacts focus
for the last seven years has been

444
00:25:08,423 --> 00:25:13,553
not about how can we make Dom updates
faster per se, but about scheduling.

445
00:25:14,048 --> 00:25:19,718
Things like concurrent mode, transitions,
suspense, even the new activity component

446
00:25:19,898 --> 00:25:23,768
builds off of the foundations that
they've built for the last several years.

447
00:25:23,768 --> 00:25:23,828
Yeah.

448
00:25:24,368 --> 00:25:28,958
And so his argument is that number
one, when people say react is an

449
00:25:28,958 --> 00:25:33,248
innovating, they're ignoring all the
new features built around concurrency.

450
00:25:33,848 --> 00:25:40,358
And number two, that most people are
still thinking about using React in

451
00:25:40,358 --> 00:25:44,228
a very 20 16, 20 17 ish sort of way.

452
00:25:44,798 --> 00:25:48,938
Most people aren't even thinking
about using the new capabilities

453
00:25:48,938 --> 00:25:50,078
that React has unlocked.

454
00:25:50,888 --> 00:25:52,298
I think he's actually
got a pretty good point.

455
00:25:52,823 --> 00:25:53,363
Carl: That's fair.

456
00:25:53,543 --> 00:25:57,533
I would generally agree with that
and like I am very much in that boat,

457
00:25:57,593 --> 00:26:02,093
I'll be honest, like I haven't written
extensive from scratch, like build an

458
00:26:02,093 --> 00:26:04,613
app and react since about that time.

459
00:26:04,613 --> 00:26:08,603
The last time I really did that from
scratch to like a full production

460
00:26:08,603 --> 00:26:13,103
level where I was like exclusively
focused on the front end was about

461
00:26:13,103 --> 00:26:15,233
that time, like ended around 2021.

462
00:26:15,833 --> 00:26:18,773
So I've been following a lot of
this, but I haven't used it at the

463
00:26:18,773 --> 00:26:20,783
same level of depth that I used to.

464
00:26:21,293 --> 00:26:24,653
I have seen somebody who, you know,
one of my internet acquaintances

465
00:26:24,953 --> 00:26:28,043
who I have a lot of respect for,
as you know, both technically and

466
00:26:28,043 --> 00:26:29,363
like entrepreneurial and whatever.

467
00:26:29,873 --> 00:26:34,973
He's been extolling the virtues of
server components for the last couple

468
00:26:34,973 --> 00:26:38,753
of months, I think, and it's been on
my, you know, it's been somewhere on

469
00:26:38,753 --> 00:26:40,313
my to-do list to talk more with him.

470
00:26:40,363 --> 00:26:41,293
Mark: Daniel Switz.

471
00:26:41,653 --> 00:26:42,013
Carl: Yep, yep.

472
00:26:42,013 --> 00:26:42,653
Daniel Switz.

473
00:26:43,003 --> 00:26:44,773
Just like I've heard him say some things.

474
00:26:44,773 --> 00:26:48,073
It's like, okay, I feel like you
get it and I feel like you get it

475
00:26:48,073 --> 00:26:49,243
in a way that you could communicate.

476
00:26:49,698 --> 00:26:53,598
It's crossed my mind actually to have
him and Ricky and or him and Dan or

477
00:26:53,598 --> 00:26:56,898
I don't know, a group of people on
a stage like this and just like talk

478
00:26:56,898 --> 00:26:57,918
about it and be like, what the fuck?

479
00:26:58,098 --> 00:26:58,548
What are we doing?

480
00:26:58,758 --> 00:26:59,328
How do you do this?

481
00:26:59,958 --> 00:27:00,918
So yeah, I don't know.

482
00:27:00,918 --> 00:27:04,638
It's like, it's definitely
there is innovation happening.

483
00:27:05,148 --> 00:27:09,288
I think a lot of the innovation, like
there's innovation happening and there's

484
00:27:09,288 --> 00:27:11,088
also just like roadblock clearing.

485
00:27:11,268 --> 00:27:15,468
It's like, you know, there's the
innovative, you build the road, but then

486
00:27:15,468 --> 00:27:16,578
you have to deal with the consequences.

487
00:27:16,578 --> 00:27:17,898
Like, great, you have this road.

488
00:27:17,898 --> 00:27:19,458
Like what is it like to actually use it?

489
00:27:20,088 --> 00:27:24,438
And then a lot of the time you
realize there are speed bumps and

490
00:27:24,438 --> 00:27:27,618
whatever that you didn't realize you
were building in the first place.

491
00:27:28,128 --> 00:27:29,808
And the fix there is not innovate.

492
00:27:29,808 --> 00:27:31,878
You don't just like, well that sucked.

493
00:27:31,878 --> 00:27:32,778
Let's build a new road.

494
00:27:33,078 --> 00:27:33,858
No, you fix it.

495
00:27:33,888 --> 00:27:37,938
Figure out different ways to
approach the same problem that

496
00:27:37,938 --> 00:27:39,738
have a different set of trade-offs.

497
00:27:39,918 --> 00:27:43,308
And so I think that's some of what's
being complained about here is that like

498
00:27:43,308 --> 00:27:45,318
people are like, we need a new thing.

499
00:27:45,318 --> 00:27:46,758
We need to rewrite from scratch.

500
00:27:47,518 --> 00:27:49,138
And No, we don't.

501
00:27:49,678 --> 00:27:50,218
I don't think we do.

502
00:27:51,688 --> 00:27:52,438
So, yeah, I don't know.

503
00:27:52,438 --> 00:27:53,818
I guess that's what I,
what I have to say there.

504
00:27:54,328 --> 00:27:58,048
Mark: So, sort of on on that note,
Ryan Carniato from the solid team

505
00:27:58,078 --> 00:28:01,408
routinely does streams where he
talks about what he's working on or

506
00:28:01,468 --> 00:28:02,908
you, where the ecosystem is going.

507
00:28:03,238 --> 00:28:07,438
He and Ricky have had a
number of like, actually.

508
00:28:08,008 --> 00:28:11,908
Intentional and productive discussions
back and forth on Blue Sky and Twitter

509
00:28:12,328 --> 00:28:16,108
where Ryan has said, we've got our
own version of suspense, we've got

510
00:28:16,108 --> 00:28:17,458
our own version of transitions.

511
00:28:17,458 --> 00:28:18,778
We're trying to do things this way.

512
00:28:19,258 --> 00:28:22,798
And Ricky has put up a demo
and said, how does this, here's

513
00:28:22,798 --> 00:28:23,878
the React way to do this.

514
00:28:23,878 --> 00:28:25,888
How's this compare to the
way you guys are doing it?

515
00:28:26,398 --> 00:28:32,938
And so Ricky was actually just on
Ryan Carniatos stream on Friday and I

516
00:28:32,938 --> 00:28:34,888
looked, and it's a six hour long video.

517
00:28:34,978 --> 00:28:37,978
No, I most definitely
did not watch the video.

518
00:28:38,248 --> 00:28:41,668
I cheated and used a summarizing
tool to try to gimme a sense of what

519
00:28:41,668 --> 00:28:43,138
they were actually talking about.

520
00:28:43,378 --> 00:28:48,538
But it looked like they talked
about where React has gone and what

521
00:28:48,538 --> 00:28:52,138
has changed with all the different
concurrency related features.

522
00:28:52,498 --> 00:28:57,208
And then I think they tried to
take a sort of a classic react.

523
00:28:57,268 --> 00:29:00,838
I think it was like a React 17
to do application, and then they

524
00:29:00,838 --> 00:29:05,668
updated it live on stream to use all
the modern latest React features.

525
00:29:06,148 --> 00:29:10,558
So if you want to watch them talking about
this for six hours, the video's there.

526
00:29:10,948 --> 00:29:16,018
But it's a good example of people who
know how this, how these technologies

527
00:29:16,018 --> 00:29:21,268
are implemented, discussing them as
well as Ricky demoing how you could

528
00:29:21,268 --> 00:29:23,068
actually use these in an application.

529
00:29:23,338 --> 00:29:23,608
Carl: Yeah.

530
00:29:23,608 --> 00:29:26,878
I will say, going back to a point
a little bit about, you know, you

531
00:29:26,878 --> 00:29:30,208
shared the long thread and made an
offhand comment about like, this could

532
00:29:30,208 --> 00:29:31,648
really be a blog post at this point.

533
00:29:31,648 --> 00:29:36,748
Like the post on Ricky's feed right before
that is the, if you all promise not to

534
00:29:36,748 --> 00:29:40,208
ask me for docs or blog posts, maybe I'll
explain a bit about why creating a cache

535
00:29:40,228 --> 00:29:44,698
API for suspense is so hard and it's, oh,
I love that you're doing all of this, like

536
00:29:44,698 --> 00:29:49,138
social media outreach and everything, but
like part of the problem that, part of the

537
00:29:49,138 --> 00:29:52,108
reason why nobody understands all of this
and you have to do all the social media

538
00:29:52,108 --> 00:29:55,408
outreach is because there aren't static
available resources for people to read.

539
00:29:55,408 --> 00:29:59,308
So it's like, ah, I love that this is
happening and it's so good and so helpful.

540
00:29:59,808 --> 00:30:01,968
And there's follow up that's
not happening that I think is

541
00:30:01,968 --> 00:30:03,048
really crucially important.

542
00:30:03,438 --> 00:30:06,228
Mark: That's actually been
one of my running frustrations

543
00:30:06,228 --> 00:30:07,338
and complaints for a while.

544
00:30:07,398 --> 00:30:10,128
Ricky and I have actually had
some back and forth on this,

545
00:30:10,128 --> 00:30:11,778
multiple times on Blue Sky.

546
00:30:12,348 --> 00:30:12,408
Yeah.

547
00:30:12,408 --> 00:30:15,348
Admittedly, I'm also not
sitting here, honestly.

548
00:30:15,348 --> 00:30:17,598
I should probably start watching
the docs repos so I have a better

549
00:30:17,598 --> 00:30:19,098
sense of what updates do happen.

550
00:30:19,368 --> 00:30:23,268
That one's on me, but to a certain
extent, my, my knowledge of what's

551
00:30:23,268 --> 00:30:25,008
in the docs can get a little stale.

552
00:30:25,008 --> 00:30:25,098
Right.

553
00:30:25,578 --> 00:30:28,998
But Ricky has repeatedly complained that.

554
00:30:29,503 --> 00:30:33,883
People keep making the same wrong
assumptions about what React

555
00:30:33,943 --> 00:30:38,263
has available, why the React
team is doing things, et cetera.

556
00:30:38,773 --> 00:30:43,183
I've pushed them multiple times
this year and said, you know, my

557
00:30:43,183 --> 00:30:46,153
answer is go write a docs page.

558
00:30:46,603 --> 00:30:46,693
Yeah.

559
00:30:46,693 --> 00:30:51,913
That covers exactly the topic you
want and to have answered, and

560
00:30:51,913 --> 00:30:55,273
it answers it in exactly the way
you want This material covered.

561
00:30:55,783 --> 00:30:59,623
A lot of people are still not gonna read
that docs page, but some people who are

562
00:30:59,623 --> 00:31:01,783
already looking at the docs will see it.

563
00:31:02,293 --> 00:31:07,663
And when you run into yet another one of
these questions on social media, now you

564
00:31:07,663 --> 00:31:12,823
have the pre-written answer and you link
to it rather than having to answer it

565
00:31:12,823 --> 00:31:17,743
from scratch every time you see the same
misconception pop up on social media.

566
00:31:18,013 --> 00:31:22,363
I, I wanna be clear, I, I am genuinely
excited that Ricky has done so much

567
00:31:22,363 --> 00:31:24,373
outreach over the last year or so.

568
00:31:25,158 --> 00:31:29,208
Even just in the last couple weeks
he was, he wrote dozens of tweets

569
00:31:29,268 --> 00:31:34,668
on both Blue Sky and Twitter around
the threads related to the React

570
00:31:34,698 --> 00:31:37,098
innovation by default discussion.

571
00:31:37,608 --> 00:31:40,458
And I'm genuinely happy he's
doing this much outreach.

572
00:31:40,518 --> 00:31:43,368
It's sort of taking Dan's
place in that sense.

573
00:31:43,878 --> 00:31:49,428
But when your great answers are
buried, 15 replies deep in a Twitter

574
00:31:49,428 --> 00:31:53,688
thread, no one sees them other than
the person you're responding to.

575
00:31:54,198 --> 00:31:58,758
And that is the kind of material
that desperately ought to be its

576
00:31:58,758 --> 00:32:03,348
own blog post, as well as these
couple top level threats as well.

577
00:32:03,348 --> 00:32:05,838
And so I genuinely happy he's engaging.

578
00:32:05,838 --> 00:32:08,718
I would just love to see that
material written up longer term.

579
00:32:09,448 --> 00:32:12,718
Carl: This is clearly a bit of a
cycle, you know, like social, this

580
00:32:12,718 --> 00:32:14,668
has been true for years generally.

581
00:32:15,028 --> 00:32:21,023
So like maybe this is an opportunity
for someone here listening to go through

582
00:32:21,173 --> 00:32:24,028
some of the, to go through these threads.

583
00:32:24,028 --> 00:32:28,198
Like if you're champing at the bit for
an opportunity to have an impact on the

584
00:32:28,198 --> 00:32:32,278
ecosystem and on the industry, like this
could be a pretty achievable way to do so.

585
00:32:32,278 --> 00:32:37,648
Like this content is out there, it exists,
but not in a way that's discoverable.

586
00:32:37,648 --> 00:32:42,418
So like taking this knowledge that
is being produced in ephemeral social

587
00:32:42,418 --> 00:32:47,488
media threads and then just like
restructuring it, reformatting it into

588
00:32:47,488 --> 00:32:52,378
a markdown document and submitting a
PR to react could be really effective.

589
00:32:52,438 --> 00:32:55,588
I, I'll throw that gauntlet down,
like that is an achievable thing

590
00:32:56,158 --> 00:32:57,538
that I am probably not gonna do.

591
00:32:58,018 --> 00:33:01,328
Mark: People used to say that the
real React docs was Dan Abramov's

592
00:33:01,348 --> 00:33:05,248
Twitter account, which he then
deleted and all that info is gone.

593
00:33:05,488 --> 00:33:09,568
I don't expect blue sky to go down,
but yeah, like if someone out there

594
00:33:09,928 --> 00:33:14,098
wanted to go through some of, you
know, Dan and Ricky and whoever else's

595
00:33:14,128 --> 00:33:18,718
Blue Sky threads and pull out info
and submit docs, prs like that would

596
00:33:18,718 --> 00:33:20,308
genuinely help the entire ecosystem.

597
00:33:20,668 --> 00:33:20,908
Carl: Yep.

598
00:33:21,148 --> 00:33:21,538
Right.

599
00:33:21,598 --> 00:33:22,948
And it doesn't need to be perfect first.

600
00:33:22,948 --> 00:33:24,058
Drafts are so good.

601
00:33:24,658 --> 00:33:27,928
First, the first draft is so hard and
going from first draft to published

602
00:33:27,928 --> 00:33:29,578
thing is still a lot of work.

603
00:33:29,938 --> 00:33:33,058
But man, just getting a first draft
out is often the thing that tips it

604
00:33:33,058 --> 00:33:34,588
over the edge into actually happening.

605
00:33:35,098 --> 00:33:35,398
Yep.

606
00:33:35,403 --> 00:33:37,768
I'll just say that if anyone's
looking for something.

607
00:33:38,398 --> 00:33:39,028
Mark: Love the idea.

608
00:33:39,328 --> 00:33:40,888
Alright, moving right along.

609
00:33:41,158 --> 00:33:44,278
A few different updates related
to server components this month.

610
00:33:44,308 --> 00:33:49,588
The biggest would be that React
Router now has RSC support in

611
00:33:49,588 --> 00:33:51,898
their framework mode builds.

612
00:33:52,048 --> 00:33:55,528
So React Router, as I understand
it now, has three different modes.

613
00:33:55,888 --> 00:34:00,178
There's sort of the, the traditional
client side only, here's your list of

614
00:34:00,178 --> 00:34:05,548
routes mode, there's a somewhat more
complicated data mode, and then there's

615
00:34:05,548 --> 00:34:08,908
the full blown full build framework mode.

616
00:34:09,208 --> 00:34:13,408
And so I believe they previously
announced some RSC primitives

617
00:34:13,408 --> 00:34:15,028
available in data mode.

618
00:34:15,538 --> 00:34:18,388
And then I believe the framework
mode is now taking those and

619
00:34:18,388 --> 00:34:22,318
expanding on them somehow to make
it available for the full build.

620
00:34:22,828 --> 00:34:28,198
So, you know, again, having more
RSC options available besides

621
00:34:28,198 --> 00:34:30,658
just next is a pretty big deal.

622
00:34:30,658 --> 00:34:34,288
And especially when it's built into
something as widely used as React router.

623
00:34:34,783 --> 00:34:35,083
Carl: Yep.

624
00:34:35,323 --> 00:34:35,803
Love that.

625
00:34:36,193 --> 00:34:39,583
Mark: They also announced that
React router now has stable

626
00:34:39,583 --> 00:34:41,863
middleware support as well.

627
00:34:42,103 --> 00:34:43,993
Your routes can now have middleware.

628
00:34:44,473 --> 00:34:49,033
Krasimir Tsonev, who is a React
educator and has been around for a

629
00:34:49,033 --> 00:34:54,373
while, put up a nifty little support
matrix called, can I use RSC today,

630
00:34:54,823 --> 00:35:00,643
where he tried to do equivalent bits of
RSC usage and features across several

631
00:35:00,643 --> 00:35:07,063
different tools from next in, in Remix
and Waku and various other tools.

632
00:35:07,543 --> 00:35:08,743
He was also very curious.

633
00:35:08,743 --> 00:35:12,343
I, I actually talked to him
at React Summit in, in June,

634
00:35:12,343 --> 00:35:13,123
and I think this is what.

635
00:35:13,723 --> 00:35:17,323
And he was talking to a couple other
folks, and I think this is what spawned

636
00:35:17,323 --> 00:35:21,913
him doing that deep dive where he was
actually kind of bothered by the fact that

637
00:35:21,913 --> 00:35:23,743
server components require a framework.

638
00:35:24,133 --> 00:35:27,943
And so he went off and ended up
implementing his own tool called for cat.

639
00:35:28,798 --> 00:35:33,778
Which is supposed to be somehow a
proof of concept for using an RFC

640
00:35:33,808 --> 00:35:37,408
without an actual framework per se.

641
00:35:37,768 --> 00:35:43,468
So sort of a more primitive, granular
client server separation build tool.

642
00:35:43,948 --> 00:35:48,808
Speaking of build tools, I saw mention
that there is a set of plugins available

643
00:35:48,808 --> 00:35:54,538
that try to add some RSC support to the
RS build, rust based bundler as well.

644
00:35:55,553 --> 00:35:59,843
Finally, I also saw a good blog post that
talked about techniques for doing parallel

645
00:35:59,843 --> 00:36:03,263
and recursive route rendering with RSCs.

646
00:36:03,653 --> 00:36:06,083
As Carl mentioned earlier, all
this stuff is frankly outside of my

647
00:36:06,083 --> 00:36:10,313
experience, I've never tried to render,
you know, RSCs much less do parallel

648
00:36:10,313 --> 00:36:13,673
and recursive stuff, but it clearly,
people are out there experimenting

649
00:36:13,673 --> 00:36:14,723
with these things and that's good.

650
00:36:15,233 --> 00:36:15,833
Carl: Oh man.

651
00:36:15,953 --> 00:36:18,533
I'm looking at the blog post.

652
00:36:18,533 --> 00:36:20,873
You mentioned React server
components without a framework

653
00:36:20,903 --> 00:36:22,643
and it's got a mention of Flux.

654
00:36:22,853 --> 00:36:24,233
Oh, throwback.

655
00:36:24,503 --> 00:36:24,803
Yeah.

656
00:36:24,833 --> 00:36:29,423
I mean we're Reactiflux because for
about a six or eight months it was React

657
00:36:29,423 --> 00:36:33,383
and then you pair it with Flux and that
was how you do UI and state management.

658
00:36:33,383 --> 00:36:34,673
So it's wow, throwback.

659
00:36:34,703 --> 00:36:35,273
That's a long time.

660
00:36:35,753 --> 00:36:37,763
Alright, little bit of a roundup on.

661
00:36:38,323 --> 00:36:41,893
Vulnerabilities and
security incidents on MPM.

662
00:36:42,283 --> 00:36:43,603
There's been a lot this month.

663
00:36:44,053 --> 00:36:47,143
Mark: I think that the first
one happened late last month,

664
00:36:47,143 --> 00:36:48,703
and we mentioned it briefly.

665
00:36:48,703 --> 00:36:48,763
Yeah.

666
00:36:48,763 --> 00:36:52,933
And then there was just like this
constant flood of new compromises,

667
00:36:52,933 --> 00:36:56,383
new vulnerabilities, all kinds
of packages being taken over,

668
00:36:56,713 --> 00:37:02,023
ranging from crypto miners to like
full-blown credential stealing.

669
00:37:02,023 --> 00:37:04,063
It's, it's been pretty
bad out there folks.

670
00:37:04,603 --> 00:37:04,933
Carl: Right?

671
00:37:04,933 --> 00:37:06,133
So last month.

672
00:37:06,838 --> 00:37:11,098
NX was compromised, which is discussed
in this set of links that we have here.

673
00:37:11,368 --> 00:37:16,108
I'll send one at a time as we get into
it, but yeah, so it, what we've seen

674
00:37:16,108 --> 00:37:23,158
has been everything from like pretty,
there was a targeted attack that would

675
00:37:23,398 --> 00:37:29,368
do like intercede, crypto payments and
sub out addresses for, you know, an

676
00:37:29,368 --> 00:37:33,713
attacker's wallet actually that had a
small innovation in that category of

677
00:37:33,713 --> 00:37:37,433
attack where it would generate an address
that was visually similar to the one

678
00:37:37,433 --> 00:37:39,443
that you had used to try and escape.

679
00:37:39,443 --> 00:37:44,633
Notice I heard that attack only got
like $50 or like less than $500.

680
00:37:44,633 --> 00:37:47,393
I've seen some conflicting numbers,
but like generally not effective,

681
00:37:47,453 --> 00:37:49,643
did not achieve its goals.

682
00:37:50,183 --> 00:37:52,223
But like it hit debug.

683
00:37:52,223 --> 00:37:55,613
Like it hit a package that I
saw the security alert go out

684
00:37:55,613 --> 00:37:57,593
and I was like, oh, that sounds
like something that I might use.

685
00:37:57,863 --> 00:37:58,343
And I checked.

686
00:37:58,343 --> 00:38:03,203
I'm like, yep, a bunch of projects on
my computer were using that package.

687
00:38:03,593 --> 00:38:09,443
That was the one that got targeted with
crypto interception, but previously,

688
00:38:09,533 --> 00:38:14,063
I think it was nx, was it last month,
that we had the people who were stealing

689
00:38:14,063 --> 00:38:19,403
credentials and using AI to generate
other code to steal credentials.

690
00:38:19,403 --> 00:38:22,793
Like, ah, that's the worst
attack I've ever seen.

691
00:38:23,263 --> 00:38:26,743
And the only reason it wasn't
worse was because of the

692
00:38:26,743 --> 00:38:28,573
limited scope of compromise.

693
00:38:28,903 --> 00:38:33,823
So like I was primed seeing that
innovative, highly effective attack

694
00:38:34,003 --> 00:38:40,063
when I saw this massively widely
distributed compromise of debug.

695
00:38:40,783 --> 00:38:45,283
And I have a little bit of egg on my
face regarding this because I had pinged

696
00:38:45,283 --> 00:38:49,393
in the node Discord that I help operate
saying like, oh, you need to look at this.

697
00:38:49,393 --> 00:38:50,263
This is awful.

698
00:38:50,263 --> 00:38:52,783
And it ended up not being as bad as
I thought because that was a crypto

699
00:38:52,783 --> 00:38:54,353
miner, not a credential stealer.

700
00:38:54,763 --> 00:38:58,063
Mark: The attack itself seemed like
a pretty big deal, and then it was

701
00:38:58,063 --> 00:39:03,793
almost sort of wasted on, well,
it has to lead to you accidentally

702
00:39:03,793 --> 00:39:08,383
build a client side app that has the
compromised version built into it.

703
00:39:08,803 --> 00:39:11,953
Carl: Right, they managed to
successfully target one of the

704
00:39:11,953 --> 00:39:14,383
single most widely used packages.

705
00:39:14,803 --> 00:39:19,273
And completely squandered it by
using it to execute an attack that

706
00:39:19,273 --> 00:39:22,813
had such limited application that
they just didn't get anything.

707
00:39:23,113 --> 00:39:28,813
So like that's just straight up,
like they screwed up, like they

708
00:39:28,813 --> 00:39:32,713
achieved a massive level of success
and just like immediately fell on

709
00:39:32,713 --> 00:39:34,223
their face and did nothing with it.

710
00:39:34,303 --> 00:39:35,233
That's just a miss.

711
00:39:35,233 --> 00:39:38,143
Like that was just luck, that
it wasn't worse than it was.

712
00:39:38,773 --> 00:39:41,443
Mark: But on the, on the flip side,
the article that's talking about the

713
00:39:41,443 --> 00:39:46,183
ongoing supply chain attack did do a
bunch of credential stealing, targeting

714
00:39:46,183 --> 00:39:50,563
a bunch of packages like tiny color
and a bunch of CrowdStrike packages.

715
00:39:51,043 --> 00:39:51,103
Yeah.

716
00:39:51,103 --> 00:39:56,593
I don't know the extent of like what
sites got hit because of that compromise.

717
00:39:57,073 --> 00:39:57,253
Yeah.

718
00:39:57,283 --> 00:40:01,243
But I believe that one's, that one had
did a, done a pretty good job of finding

719
00:40:01,243 --> 00:40:06,523
credentials and publishing them on either,
I think it was like either creating

720
00:40:06,523 --> 00:40:11,863
a new GitHub repo or creating a new
specially named branch in GitHub repos

721
00:40:12,223 --> 00:40:14,473
to try to exfiltrate the credentials.

722
00:40:14,983 --> 00:40:15,343
Carl: Yeah.

723
00:40:15,403 --> 00:40:16,933
Oh, I was just reading this one actually.

724
00:40:16,933 --> 00:40:21,793
It was, they had, they, somebody had
added a line to the GitHub action that

725
00:40:21,793 --> 00:40:27,583
did, that would echo out the title of
the PR and because it just did an un

726
00:40:27,583 --> 00:40:29,413
escaped string, you know, echo this.

727
00:40:29,413 --> 00:40:31,813
You could just terminate that
and then run whatever you wanted.

728
00:40:32,368 --> 00:40:37,228
On the GitHub action, like, do not
let any arbitrary person run whatever

729
00:40:37,228 --> 00:40:38,518
script they want in your seat.

730
00:40:38,878 --> 00:40:40,948
Like, oh man, that
it's, that's pretty bad.

731
00:40:41,488 --> 00:40:43,468
And also, oof, this is CrowdStrike.

732
00:40:43,618 --> 00:40:47,128
Like, remember CrowdStrike and how
they took down like every, like air

733
00:40:47,128 --> 00:40:51,958
travel around the world from another
security problem that they had, and

734
00:40:51,988 --> 00:40:55,888
oops, they're a cybersecurity company
where preventing attacks is their job.

735
00:40:56,248 --> 00:40:56,668
Oops.

736
00:40:56,998 --> 00:40:57,358
Yeah.

737
00:40:57,628 --> 00:40:59,968
I don't understand how they're
still operating successfully.

738
00:41:01,078 --> 00:41:06,448
Mark: So, GitHub and NPM did actually
put up a, a, an announcement saying

739
00:41:06,448 --> 00:41:09,838
that they're gonna be doing a
lot of work to try to tighten up.

740
00:41:10,608 --> 00:41:15,858
Publishing of packages down the
road, they're gonna be making changes

741
00:41:15,858 --> 00:41:20,238
to two fa it says they're gonna
deprecate time-based passwords.

742
00:41:20,568 --> 00:41:22,908
That sounds like it's gonna
end up being a, a big deal.

743
00:41:23,028 --> 00:41:25,068
I don't fully understand
the implications yet.

744
00:41:25,073 --> 00:41:28,548
And, and they said they're gonna, you
know, take time to roll these changes out.

745
00:41:28,998 --> 00:41:30,893
But that one seems like a big deal.

746
00:41:31,103 --> 00:41:37,458
We're also making and trying to apply
more limits to tokens and work on better

747
00:41:37,458 --> 00:41:40,188
trusted pet publishing workflows as well.

748
00:41:40,548 --> 00:41:40,998
Interesting.

749
00:41:41,058 --> 00:41:41,358
Carl: Yeah.

750
00:41:41,418 --> 00:41:44,448
That's all important and useful,
but like also, I don't know if

751
00:41:44,448 --> 00:41:47,418
there, if you just, if somebody
opens a PR to your CI, that adds.

752
00:41:48,118 --> 00:41:50,188
A vulnerable un escaped string.

753
00:41:50,188 --> 00:41:53,908
Like it doesn't really matter how,
what your authentication or publishing

754
00:41:53,908 --> 00:41:55,678
workflow looks like if that gets merged.

755
00:41:55,678 --> 00:41:56,488
Like you're vulnerable.

756
00:41:56,488 --> 00:41:59,158
So dunno how, dunno what you
do about that specifically.

757
00:41:59,218 --> 00:42:00,268
But, okay.

758
00:42:00,358 --> 00:42:02,878
Let's hop into our lightning round.

759
00:42:03,178 --> 00:42:07,168
Mark: I love a good article that just
goes into absurd amounts of detail on a

760
00:42:07,168 --> 00:42:10,978
ridiculous thing that someone's trying
to do, but they commit to the bit fully.

761
00:42:11,368 --> 00:42:18,538
And this one was, someone had a.
JavaScript based game and they ported

762
00:42:18,538 --> 00:42:21,268
it all the way back to work on dos.

763
00:42:21,778 --> 00:42:25,498
Like why would you want to, I don't
know, but apparently they actually

764
00:42:25,498 --> 00:42:27,388
made this work and I love it.

765
00:42:27,868 --> 00:42:33,148
Carl: That is insanity, and I also love
it spiritually similar to Doom running

766
00:42:33,148 --> 00:42:34,948
in TypeScript types, just for no reason.

767
00:42:35,518 --> 00:42:35,668
Yep.

768
00:42:35,668 --> 00:42:35,678
Love.

769
00:42:35,963 --> 00:42:40,673
Mark: CloudFlare got into the news
this month because they had a dashboard

770
00:42:40,673 --> 00:42:46,223
failure that cascaded, and believe
it or not, it was caused by manually

771
00:42:46,223 --> 00:42:51,983
fetching data in a use effect that
went into an infinite loop, which also

772
00:42:51,983 --> 00:42:55,223
means they weren't actually using like
React query or anything like that.

773
00:42:55,733 --> 00:42:56,243
Oops.

774
00:42:56,693 --> 00:42:59,723
Carl: Yeah, I did hear like none
of their services were affected.

775
00:42:59,723 --> 00:43:03,983
It was just the control panels that
was taken down, so that's good.

776
00:43:04,253 --> 00:43:09,113
I also saw Guillermo Roush throwing some
shade at the CloudFlare CEO after that.

777
00:43:09,113 --> 00:43:10,523
So, you know, drama post.

778
00:43:11,093 --> 00:43:13,083
There's a cute post from Bocoup.

779
00:43:13,168 --> 00:43:18,053
There are web consultancy that's
had a, a big impact on standards and

780
00:43:18,263 --> 00:43:20,813
web platform implementation details.

781
00:43:21,143 --> 00:43:24,893
So they, they've heard a cute blog
post, the web's most tolerated feature

782
00:43:25,553 --> 00:43:28,193
looking into Zoom and how Zoom works.

783
00:43:28,703 --> 00:43:30,473
And it is kind, it's kind of cute.

784
00:43:30,473 --> 00:43:33,953
I don't know, just like it's a fun
look at standards and like how.

785
00:43:35,008 --> 00:43:39,208
Cross browser implementation stuff works
and how like, oh actually this like

786
00:43:39,208 --> 00:43:43,678
totally unstandardized thing just happens
to work really well and everyone uses it.

787
00:43:44,278 --> 00:43:44,788
So, I don't know.

788
00:43:44,788 --> 00:43:45,178
It's cute.

789
00:43:45,208 --> 00:43:50,368
It's a cute post from people who are
deeply involved in the standardization

790
00:43:50,368 --> 00:43:54,958
and implementation process, highlighting
a case where like standards like just

791
00:43:54,958 --> 00:43:56,608
kind of didn't happen and it was fine.

792
00:43:56,608 --> 00:44:01,168
Anyway, yeah, there was another good
post from front end Masters who I,

793
00:44:01,168 --> 00:44:04,168
I've just always had a soft spot
in my heart for front end masters

794
00:44:04,168 --> 00:44:09,148
because they were, that's the first
platform that I learned react from.

795
00:44:09,148 --> 00:44:12,328
It was like a comparative class
of Angular React and Ember, and

796
00:44:12,328 --> 00:44:13,708
I was like, oh, react seems nice.

797
00:44:14,188 --> 00:44:17,398
So like I owe them a debt to,
you know, my entire career.

798
00:44:17,398 --> 00:44:18,388
So that's, it's cool.

799
00:44:18,388 --> 00:44:20,758
It's nice to see 'em still around
and still staying on the ball.

800
00:44:21,313 --> 00:44:25,963
They published a post What you Need
to Know about Modern CSS 2025 edition.

801
00:44:26,023 --> 00:44:27,038
Mark: And it was long too.

802
00:44:27,338 --> 00:44:27,918
It was long.

803
00:44:28,093 --> 00:44:30,913
Carl: It's big and I appreciate
that because I've gone to a couple

804
00:44:30,913 --> 00:44:35,653
of conferences and I've seen talk
from various people who are more,

805
00:44:35,983 --> 00:44:38,283
who work on CSS a little bit more.

806
00:44:38,423 --> 00:44:41,893
Una Kravets, I think is who I'm
most specifically thinking of, who's

807
00:44:41,893 --> 00:44:44,263
wonderful and great and a great speaker.

808
00:44:44,383 --> 00:44:48,673
But like I'll see her talk about some
CSS stuff and be like, wow, all of

809
00:44:48,673 --> 00:44:52,723
this is stuff that I've never heard of
and CSS is completely different than

810
00:44:52,723 --> 00:44:54,613
what I've used in a lot of my career.

811
00:44:54,823 --> 00:44:55,783
That's awesome.

812
00:44:55,783 --> 00:44:58,123
And I don't know what to do about that.

813
00:44:58,123 --> 00:45:03,613
So this is a great post for me in that
situation and going, ah, I need to

814
00:45:03,613 --> 00:45:07,333
catch up on like the last six years of
stuff that I haven't really paid close

815
00:45:07,333 --> 00:45:09,403
attention to as it evolves step by step.

816
00:45:09,433 --> 00:45:10,423
So, great summary.

817
00:45:10,928 --> 00:45:15,668
Mark: We have a few different
posts on browser behavior.

818
00:45:16,058 --> 00:45:19,478
So there was I and all from
folks who have worked on browsers

819
00:45:19,478 --> 00:45:20,948
for a long time, I might add.

820
00:45:21,278 --> 00:45:26,888
Jake Archibald did one on fetch streams
are great, but don't use them for

821
00:45:26,888 --> 00:45:30,518
measuring upload download progress
points out that you still basically

822
00:45:30,518 --> 00:45:32,678
need to use XHR for that instead.

823
00:45:33,038 --> 00:45:36,278
Although there's discussion
of adding some new options and

824
00:45:36,278 --> 00:45:40,448
callbacks to fetch that might
accurately handle that at some point.

825
00:45:40,688 --> 00:45:46,538
There was one from Nolan Lawson talking
about why do browsers throttle JS timers?

826
00:45:46,928 --> 00:45:50,828
So you know, why does that time timeout
zero actually be, why is it more

827
00:45:50,828 --> 00:45:52,778
like four milliseconds, et cetera?

828
00:45:53,228 --> 00:45:58,418
And basically it's because people rate
bad code or either intentionally or

829
00:45:58,418 --> 00:46:00,578
unintentionally that can do bad things.

830
00:46:01,148 --> 00:46:07,488
And then Addy Osmani did a pretty
long post a, mid-level overview of how

831
00:46:07,488 --> 00:46:13,008
modern browsers work overall, going
from, you know, parsing JavaScript

832
00:46:13,008 --> 00:46:17,898
in HTML in various ways to using
GPUs to put pixels on the page.

833
00:46:18,438 --> 00:46:20,298
Carl: Yeah, it's funny to me to
see, I don't know, I've just been

834
00:46:20,298 --> 00:46:26,148
seeing Addy Osmani and Nolan Lawson
and Jake Archibald for so long.

835
00:46:26,178 --> 00:46:30,858
It's like, man, how great for them to
stay on the top of the game for so long.

836
00:46:31,105 --> 00:46:31,525
It's great.

837
00:46:32,005 --> 00:46:33,415
One that I like here.

838
00:46:33,415 --> 00:46:38,425
I like seeing Vercel and Biome
collaborated on stress testing, biomes

839
00:46:38,425 --> 00:46:40,525
new, no floating promises lint rule.

840
00:46:41,035 --> 00:46:46,465
I, again, have a soft spot in my heart For
Biome, I was a initial backer of Rome back

841
00:46:46,465 --> 00:46:51,805
in the day, which was then forked after
some maintainer shenanigans into Biome.

842
00:46:52,165 --> 00:46:55,465
They never really achieved the
original vision, or have not yet at

843
00:46:55,465 --> 00:46:59,995
least, which was like unified, like
linting compiling, you know, one

844
00:46:59,995 --> 00:47:01,525
tool to rule them all kind of thing.

845
00:47:02,389 --> 00:47:05,389
That it was called Rome because
all paths, all roads lead to Rome,

846
00:47:05,389 --> 00:47:07,220
so it was trying to do all of it.

847
00:47:07,669 --> 00:47:12,769
They have achieved a lot of their
goals, but not quite enough to really

848
00:47:12,769 --> 00:47:14,839
meaningfully claim to do all of it.

849
00:47:15,289 --> 00:47:18,829
Mark: It's become a pretty solid, a
pretty solid formatter, but they never

850
00:47:18,829 --> 00:47:23,240
really managed to get into any of the
multi tools sharing one a ST side.

851
00:47:23,809 --> 00:47:24,319
Carl: Yeah, right.

852
00:47:24,319 --> 00:47:24,950
Oh, that was it.

853
00:47:24,950 --> 00:47:28,369
It was because you know, you, you
would have like Babel and ES lint and

854
00:47:28,369 --> 00:47:32,209
TypeScript and prettier and all of
those, and all of them were independently

855
00:47:32,209 --> 00:47:34,430
parsing ASTs and then operating on.

856
00:47:35,180 --> 00:47:36,859
So like that's just a
lot of wasted effort.

857
00:47:36,859 --> 00:47:40,549
So the, the goal was, the original
goal was like one AST, all of this

858
00:47:40,549 --> 00:47:44,240
stuff talking to that will be an order
of magnitude performance improvement.

859
00:47:44,330 --> 00:47:44,419
Mark: Mm-hmm.

860
00:47:44,779 --> 00:47:48,950
Carl: But anyway, so enough background,
they have a new no floating promises

861
00:47:48,950 --> 00:47:54,229
rule because if you don't await or
you know, respond to a promise, it can

862
00:47:54,229 --> 00:47:56,240
cause all sorts of super weird stuff.

863
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,359
They say that, you know, a lot of
engineers have campfire stories

864
00:47:59,390 --> 00:48:02,330
of floating promises taking down
production, which is definitely true.

865
00:48:02,330 --> 00:48:07,580
I've definitely, a lot of the weirdest
errors I've ever encountered track back

866
00:48:07,580 --> 00:48:11,689
to, oh, we didn't correctly wait for
this promise to resolve, so this is it.

867
00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:17,990
This is a fun, deep dive technical
writeup of how do you detect that promise.

868
00:48:18,424 --> 00:48:19,774
Has not been waited for.

869
00:48:19,834 --> 00:48:23,975
What does it even mean to return a promise
when TypeScript has a built-in promise?

870
00:48:23,975 --> 00:48:25,355
Like construct?

871
00:48:25,535 --> 00:48:26,015
It's a good read.

872
00:48:26,015 --> 00:48:26,734
It's a good deep dive.

873
00:48:27,214 --> 00:48:29,705
Mark: I should point out that
the article was written by Dmitri

874
00:48:29,705 --> 00:48:32,975
Metropolis, who just got done
organizing Squiggle conf and is also

875
00:48:32,975 --> 00:48:34,774
the person who did Doom in Typescripts.

876
00:48:34,995 --> 00:48:36,585
Carl: Oh, it is, Love Dmitri.

877
00:48:36,674 --> 00:48:37,125
Love that.

878
00:48:37,129 --> 00:48:42,705
There is a good deep dive here into
Bun Install and how it's so fast.

879
00:48:43,305 --> 00:48:46,575
They say on average it runs seven
times faster than MPM and 17

880
00:48:46,575 --> 00:48:48,315
fast times faster than you yarn.

881
00:48:48,765 --> 00:48:52,544
It's a large post and it's got a
lot of real deep benchmark stuff.

882
00:48:52,605 --> 00:48:52,694
Mm-hmm.

883
00:48:53,355 --> 00:48:56,685
Mark: I think Lydia Halley wrote that
one actually very well written post.

884
00:48:57,390 --> 00:48:58,259
Lot of detail.

885
00:48:58,589 --> 00:49:00,060
Carl: Wait, was she on React?

886
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:03,430
Mark: I believe she was working for
Vercel and left, and I think she

887
00:49:03,430 --> 00:49:05,819
actually just joined Bun as a DevRel.

888
00:49:06,220 --> 00:49:06,580
Carl: Great.

889
00:49:06,580 --> 00:49:09,009
I'm just always here for
like a deep technical dive.

890
00:49:09,190 --> 00:49:11,799
So many, so many blog posts are just
a little bit more surface level, so

891
00:49:11,799 --> 00:49:16,690
seeing something more like a white
paper, a technical writeup, I just love

892
00:49:16,690 --> 00:49:21,856
I, it's such a good window into the
real challenges that different people

893
00:49:21,856 --> 00:49:23,476
around our industries are encountering

894
00:49:23,986 --> 00:49:28,906
Mark: for folks who are still using style
components, the sanity company actually

895
00:49:28,936 --> 00:49:35,476
forked the existing now unmaintained
library and made a couple major updates.

896
00:49:35,476 --> 00:49:40,366
One, to try to optimize the
overall performance and another

897
00:49:40,366 --> 00:49:43,126
to try to provide React 19 compat.

898
00:49:43,636 --> 00:49:49,306
They say they are not maintaining
these forks per se, but they

899
00:49:49,306 --> 00:49:52,546
have done the work because they
themselves still relied on it.

900
00:49:52,876 --> 00:49:55,726
And so they've made those,
they've published those so that

901
00:49:55,726 --> 00:49:57,136
other people can benefit from it.

902
00:49:57,616 --> 00:50:01,366
So if you're still work, still
using style components, you may

903
00:50:01,366 --> 00:50:02,266
want to take a look at that.

904
00:50:02,806 --> 00:50:06,166
Also saw a nice little post that
talked about building your own

905
00:50:06,166 --> 00:50:10,936
get static props alike equivalent
if you're using Vite for SSR.

906
00:50:11,511 --> 00:50:16,041
And in the frameworks that are not
actually React, but related category.

907
00:50:16,191 --> 00:50:20,661
Dominic Getaway, who originally created
a React Delight called Inferno and

908
00:50:20,661 --> 00:50:25,581
was on the React team for a while, has
built his a new independent framework

909
00:50:25,581 --> 00:50:30,111
called Ripple, which tries to pull
together some new ideas around template

910
00:50:30,111 --> 00:50:35,211
compilation and use of JS syntax, but
in a way that's different than React.

911
00:50:35,721 --> 00:50:38,691
And then Michael Jackson and Ryan
Florence continue to drop assorted

912
00:50:38,691 --> 00:50:42,711
hints online about what their Remix
version three is going to look like.

913
00:50:42,951 --> 00:50:48,621
Michael's latest tweets are saying, what
if he could just sort of use iframes or

914
00:50:48,621 --> 00:50:51,741
iframe like behavior for async loading?

915
00:50:52,251 --> 00:50:57,621
And I really just want to see the actual
examples at this point, but they're

916
00:50:57,621 --> 00:51:00,141
dropping hints about what it'll be like.

917
00:51:00,141 --> 00:51:05,121
And oh, the plan is to actually
show stuff off at Remix Jam, which

918
00:51:05,121 --> 00:51:06,981
I think is coming up next month.

919
00:51:07,421 --> 00:51:07,691
Carl: Yep.

920
00:51:07,961 --> 00:51:09,491
I am skeptical.

921
00:51:09,611 --> 00:51:14,351
I don't know, I, I appreciate the
broad strokes of iframe, but the actual

922
00:51:14,351 --> 00:51:19,811
security constraints of using iframes
is, that's just not, they're not good.

923
00:51:20,321 --> 00:51:20,981
It's not pleasant.

924
00:51:21,161 --> 00:51:26,051
It's not, you know, that's very like
2003 era web development and we stopped

925
00:51:26,051 --> 00:51:27,221
doing that because it kind of sucked.

926
00:51:27,281 --> 00:51:28,571
It was hard to make good experiences.

927
00:51:29,141 --> 00:51:31,721
If it's not literally in I
frames, that's very different.

928
00:51:31,721 --> 00:51:33,521
So maybe it'll be better than that.

929
00:51:33,971 --> 00:51:37,361
There's an argument to be made
that what he is talking about

930
00:51:37,541 --> 00:51:42,191
shares significant overlap with
the islands style micro front ends.

931
00:51:42,701 --> 00:51:45,221
So, I'm not checked out.

932
00:51:45,401 --> 00:51:48,101
I'm curious, but I'm skeptical.

933
00:51:49,001 --> 00:51:49,481
Unfortunately.

934
00:51:49,481 --> 00:51:52,571
It sounds like Mo's having like
significant internet challenges

935
00:51:52,661 --> 00:51:53,471
in his office right now.

936
00:51:53,471 --> 00:51:56,711
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull in some
of the stuff that would've been, you

937
00:51:56,711 --> 00:51:57,761
know, that he wanted to talk about.

938
00:51:57,911 --> 00:52:06,026
There's been a RFC for React native,
for a plan for actually removing the

939
00:52:06,026 --> 00:52:11,096
old architecture, the previous way of
serializing communication between the

940
00:52:11,096 --> 00:52:12,986
JavaScript engine and the native layer.

941
00:52:13,316 --> 00:52:17,546
So it's not only, not only is the
new architecture default, they are

942
00:52:17,546 --> 00:52:21,806
now proactively communi or they're
proactively planning how to get rid

943
00:52:21,806 --> 00:52:23,546
of the old architecture entirely.

944
00:52:23,996 --> 00:52:25,076
Well, that's great.

945
00:52:25,106 --> 00:52:28,166
That feels like a big step towards
1.0, like we were talking about before.

946
00:52:28,676 --> 00:52:35,276
Mark: So CloudFlare announced a new tool
called Cap'n Web, which is a RPC system

947
00:52:35,306 --> 00:52:38,366
meant for browsers and web servers.

948
00:52:38,486 --> 00:52:43,976
And this was created by the same person
who, by Ken and Varta, who had created

949
00:52:43,976 --> 00:52:49,766
a couple other serialization libraries,
one called Capin Proto, and Capin.

950
00:52:49,766 --> 00:52:54,326
Proto works with both c plus
plus and JavaScript and possibly

951
00:52:54,326 --> 00:52:55,436
a couple other languages.

952
00:52:55,886 --> 00:52:59,516
And Capin proto is sort of a follow
on that's specifically meant for

953
00:52:59,516 --> 00:53:04,616
use with web and can be sent back
and forth using just plain JSON.

954
00:53:05,476 --> 00:53:09,226
I believe the article actually
kind of pitches it sort of as an

955
00:53:09,226 --> 00:53:11,746
alternative to GraphQL in a way.

956
00:53:12,166 --> 00:53:17,866
It actually does a funky little thing
where if you make what looks like an

957
00:53:17,866 --> 00:53:24,256
initial request for an item and then you
get back a promise for that response,

958
00:53:24,556 --> 00:53:29,146
you can call map on the promise and.

959
00:53:29,801 --> 00:53:34,151
Essentially map over what will be the
list of items and say, for example,

960
00:53:34,151 --> 00:53:38,891
gimme details on all the child items
by their id, but then it'll actually

961
00:53:38,891 --> 00:53:41,891
get batched up into a single request.

962
00:53:42,251 --> 00:53:45,881
So there's some technical trickery
going on there, but it sounds like

963
00:53:45,881 --> 00:53:51,431
it's meant to simplify both making a
request back and forth and managing the

964
00:53:51,431 --> 00:53:56,051
overhead of what would've potentially
been many independent requests as well.

965
00:53:56,501 --> 00:53:59,321
Thus, the comparison to
like a GraphQL style thing.

966
00:53:59,831 --> 00:54:00,281
Carl: Interesting.

967
00:54:00,821 --> 00:54:01,991
And also, I'll shout out.

968
00:54:02,416 --> 00:54:07,516
You know, Cap'n Proto here is spiritually
very similar to the challenge, it's

969
00:54:07,516 --> 00:54:11,326
solving a problem that's spiritually
very similar to the new architecture and

970
00:54:11,326 --> 00:54:16,006
React Native, like basically, you know,
this RPC is going instead of going across

971
00:54:16,006 --> 00:54:20,926
like a native JavaScript layer, like a
new React native, this is how do you do

972
00:54:20,926 --> 00:54:24,796
a similar type of communication between
systems across the network boundary?

973
00:54:25,246 --> 00:54:28,916
And the challenge is like the reason
you would use something like Cap'n

974
00:54:28,936 --> 00:54:33,496
Proto or Protocol Buffers, which you
know, there's kind of competitors there

975
00:54:33,556 --> 00:54:39,916
is because the serialization costs
and the volume of communication if

976
00:54:39,916 --> 00:54:43,576
you're using JSON, is just much higher,
like converting it into a string.

977
00:54:43,756 --> 00:54:46,186
It's basically a string
versus a binary data format.

978
00:54:46,516 --> 00:54:51,586
Like the, one of the problems with
JS is that you're encoding not just

979
00:54:51,586 --> 00:54:53,056
the data, but also the structure.

980
00:54:53,116 --> 00:54:56,296
You're saying, here's the object, here's
the keys, here's what it looks like.

981
00:54:56,836 --> 00:54:57,136
And that's.

982
00:54:57,866 --> 00:54:58,706
That's information.

983
00:54:58,706 --> 00:55:00,686
You know, if you're sending
that information across the

984
00:55:00,686 --> 00:55:02,666
wire, that's extra effort.

985
00:55:02,696 --> 00:55:07,616
If you already have two, two agents
on opposite ends of a network and they

986
00:55:07,616 --> 00:55:13,196
say, we agree that our communication
is in this format, then you don't need

987
00:55:13,196 --> 00:55:15,716
to send the format across the wire.

988
00:55:16,226 --> 00:55:21,386
So that's the fundamental like reason
why you might use one of these tools

989
00:55:21,386 --> 00:55:25,286
instead of just sending JSON over
HTTP and yeah, it's interesting.

990
00:55:25,286 --> 00:55:26,246
This is, it's pretty cool.

991
00:55:26,756 --> 00:55:27,056
Cool.

992
00:55:27,086 --> 00:55:33,056
The Expo had an interesting post
talking about using Swift UI in React

993
00:55:33,056 --> 00:55:35,336
Native, so that, that's pretty cool.

994
00:55:35,336 --> 00:55:38,486
Like being able to directly, if you're
in, only, if you're only targeting

995
00:55:38,486 --> 00:55:40,346
a native environment, being able to.

996
00:55:40,826 --> 00:55:44,306
Exclusively use native
primitives is like a huge win.

997
00:55:44,306 --> 00:55:48,266
Like if you don't, you know, it's always
good to remove compatibility layers

998
00:55:48,296 --> 00:55:50,006
if you don't need the compatibility.

999
00:55:50,456 --> 00:55:51,086
So that's really cool.

1000
00:55:51,086 --> 00:55:55,076
It's it, this looks pretty interesting
if you're doing stuff on Mac Os or

1001
00:55:55,076 --> 00:55:57,026
like Apple TV or things like that.

1002
00:55:57,566 --> 00:56:00,536
Mark: So the TanStack folks recently
announced a new package called

1003
00:56:00,706 --> 00:56:05,396
TanStack DB, which is supposed
to be a smart syncing layer on

1004
00:56:05,396 --> 00:56:10,586
top of TanStack Query that can do
things like in-memory filtering and

1005
00:56:10,586 --> 00:56:13,046
querying of data very efficiently.

1006
00:56:13,496 --> 00:56:18,056
And so there was a neat post that was
an interactive guide to TanStack db

1007
00:56:18,056 --> 00:56:20,936
and discussing some of the options and
some of the things you can do with it.

1008
00:56:21,446 --> 00:56:26,186
Carl: TypeScript version six may
switch to strict options by default.

1009
00:56:26,756 --> 00:56:27,536
This is,

1010
00:56:27,536 --> 00:56:28,496
Mark: hallelujah.

1011
00:56:28,766 --> 00:56:29,486
Carl: Yeah, right.

1012
00:56:29,486 --> 00:56:30,386
What a long time coming.

1013
00:56:30,386 --> 00:56:33,086
Like I have treated this as a deep,
you know, this has been step one of

1014
00:56:33,086 --> 00:56:36,716
setting up a new TypeScript project for
me since I've started using TypeScript.

1015
00:56:36,716 --> 00:56:38,426
'cause it's always been the best practice.

1016
00:56:38,486 --> 00:56:42,446
So I love that they are
discussing, switching this over.

1017
00:56:42,596 --> 00:56:42,806
Yeah.

1018
00:56:43,166 --> 00:56:45,266
It starts almost a decade ago.

1019
00:56:45,266 --> 00:56:49,646
We began to add certain options beyond,
no implicit any in strict no checks.

1020
00:56:49,976 --> 00:56:52,466
So, yeah, like almost a decade ago.

1021
00:56:52,826 --> 00:56:53,996
So that's the, that's cool.

1022
00:56:54,056 --> 00:56:58,676
TypeScript 6.0 will assume that dash dash
strict is on unless explicitly disabled,

1023
00:56:59,126 --> 00:57:02,756
which means specific settings like strict
no checks and no implicit any will be

1024
00:57:02,756 --> 00:57:05,336
enabled unless it's turned off explicitly.

1025
00:57:05,846 --> 00:57:05,906
Woo.

1026
00:57:05,936 --> 00:57:06,446
Cool.

1027
00:57:06,446 --> 00:57:11,996
No implicit any is if you don't turn that
off, like you're not really using Patrick,

1028
00:57:11,996 --> 00:57:13,676
like it's just sparkling JavaScript.

1029
00:57:14,261 --> 00:57:15,251
So that cool.

1030
00:57:15,251 --> 00:57:15,701
Love that.

1031
00:57:15,791 --> 00:57:16,601
Love to see this.

1032
00:57:16,991 --> 00:57:20,771
Mark: There's a lot of debates over the
nuances of what that concept of turning

1033
00:57:20,771 --> 00:57:22,961
on strict by default actually means.

1034
00:57:22,991 --> 00:57:26,441
But I would assume that something
along those lines would land

1035
00:57:26,441 --> 00:57:27,791
and yeah, it's way overdue.

1036
00:57:28,301 --> 00:57:32,261
Alright, last couple ones and then
we're done with the not so lightning.

1037
00:57:32,291 --> 00:57:36,011
Lightning round Shopify put up a post
talking about their migration to the

1038
00:57:36,011 --> 00:57:39,821
React native new architecture and went
through both some pros and cons and

1039
00:57:39,821 --> 00:57:42,161
pitfalls of what that process involved.

1040
00:57:42,311 --> 00:57:47,321
And then the last one is from James,
who has the really funky username that

1041
00:57:47,321 --> 00:57:51,041
I'm not even going to try to pronounce,
but he's been working as part of the

1042
00:57:51,131 --> 00:57:54,911
E 18 E ecosystem speed up process.

1043
00:57:54,911 --> 00:57:58,931
In fact, he's the person that I
did a stream on a couple days ago

1044
00:57:59,201 --> 00:58:02,831
where we talked about my work to
make the Immer library faster.

1045
00:58:03,311 --> 00:58:08,411
And his post looks at like, gives an
example of, let's say you have a math

1046
00:58:08,411 --> 00:58:10,421
clamp function that takes some arguments.

1047
00:58:10,901 --> 00:58:14,561
But you don't want it to crash if someone
does something stupid like passing in,

1048
00:58:14,591 --> 00:58:19,151
you know, a string instead of a number
and next thing you know, like two thirds

1049
00:58:19,151 --> 00:58:24,341
of your function is just validating the
inputs before it actually does anything.

1050
00:58:24,851 --> 00:58:26,741
And he argues that, you know what?

1051
00:58:26,771 --> 00:58:31,841
This actually ends up being kind of
a waste of space and execution time.

1052
00:58:32,231 --> 00:58:36,131
And that to a certain extent, if
someone passes in bad input, that's

1053
00:58:36,131 --> 00:58:40,121
their problem and not your problem,
which I can sort of get behind.

1054
00:58:40,661 --> 00:58:41,981
Carl: Yeah, interesting.

1055
00:58:41,981 --> 00:58:42,851
That makes a lot of sense.

1056
00:58:43,181 --> 00:58:46,481
It's kind of the right, it's a challenge
between sharing code and doing it inline

1057
00:58:47,201 --> 00:58:50,291
how when you start trying to do it
inline, you end up re-implementing a lot.

1058
00:58:51,311 --> 00:58:51,701
Cool.

1059
00:58:51,731 --> 00:58:52,961
Let's talk about some conferences.

1060
00:58:53,381 --> 00:58:57,011
We have in like three days, two days.

1061
00:58:57,491 --> 00:59:00,881
React Alicante in Spain,
October 2nd through fourth.

1062
00:59:01,691 --> 00:59:02,711
Mark: I will be speaking there.

1063
00:59:02,711 --> 00:59:04,031
I'm flying out on Wednesday.

1064
00:59:04,541 --> 00:59:04,961
Carl: Woo.

1065
00:59:05,021 --> 00:59:05,681
And then you're fly.

1066
00:59:05,981 --> 00:59:06,701
And then you're flying

1067
00:59:07,391 --> 00:59:08,921
Mark: all the back and then flying
all the way back across, across

1068
00:59:08,921 --> 00:59:11,411
the world for to attend React Conf.

1069
00:59:11,741 --> 00:59:12,131
Carl: Yep.

1070
00:59:12,521 --> 00:59:13,421
I'll be there too.

1071
00:59:13,511 --> 00:59:17,381
So yeah, react Conf in Henderson,
Nevada, right near Vegas.

1072
00:59:17,921 --> 00:59:21,731
I'm actually gonna be driving
from San Jose, so like if you're

1073
00:59:21,731 --> 00:59:26,171
in the Bay Area a couple days
before the React conf, lemme know.

1074
00:59:26,231 --> 00:59:26,561
I don't know.

1075
00:59:27,281 --> 00:59:29,471
I'm gonna go hiking, so, we'll,
it's gonna be an adventure.

1076
00:59:29,681 --> 00:59:33,701
Then a couple days after React
Conf, Remix is doing their own

1077
00:59:33,701 --> 00:59:37,961
conference in Toronto, the Remix Jam.

1078
00:59:37,961 --> 00:59:38,681
So yeah, maybe.

1079
00:59:38,681 --> 00:59:39,581
We'll, we will see.

1080
00:59:40,121 --> 00:59:41,891
It'll be interesting to see
what they come out with.

1081
00:59:42,251 --> 00:59:43,451
Yeah, I'm curious.

1082
00:59:43,611 --> 00:59:43,881
Yeah.

1083
00:59:43,941 --> 00:59:47,856
Anyway, coincident with that,
ViteConf is happening October

1084
00:59:47,856 --> 00:59:49,371
9th and 10th in Amsterdam.

1085
00:59:49,896 --> 00:59:50,436
That'll be cool.

1086
00:59:50,676 --> 00:59:51,936
Love to see what they come out with.

1087
00:59:52,476 --> 00:59:57,036
JSConf is doing a couple of events all
over the world actually, so they're

1088
00:59:57,036 --> 01:00:03,486
doing JSConf North America October 14th
through 16th in Chesapeake Bay, Maryland,

1089
01:00:03,966 --> 01:00:10,266
and they're also doing re JSConf Chile,
October 24th and 25th in Santiago, Chile.

1090
01:00:10,806 --> 01:00:18,126
We've also got, after that React
Native London, October 30th and 31st,

1091
01:00:18,696 --> 01:00:21,666
Mark: and Mo runs that, so you should
totally be there and support him

1092
01:00:22,056 --> 01:00:25,956
Carl: after that, there's React
India October 31st and November 1st,

1093
01:00:26,316 --> 01:00:29,676
and then the Wey Wey Web, I
think I'm pronouncing that right.

1094
01:00:29,676 --> 01:00:33,276
It says it's a yay, yay conference,
international conference for ux.

1095
01:00:33,876 --> 01:00:38,406
But yeah, that's happening in Malaga,
Spain, November 17th and 18th.

1096
01:00:39,096 --> 01:00:43,266
And then we've got React Summit happening
in New York, November 18th through 21st.

1097
01:00:43,776 --> 01:00:44,556
So that's cool.

1098
01:00:44,676 --> 01:00:44,976
We'll see.

1099
01:00:44,976 --> 01:00:45,876
Maybe I can make it to that.

1100
01:00:46,236 --> 01:00:48,366
It's in my hometown, so
Yeah, that'd be great.

1101
01:00:48,876 --> 01:00:49,686
Mark: And then React.

1102
01:00:49,686 --> 01:00:56,796
React Advanced is November 28th, all and
although it's uh, inconveniently the day

1103
01:00:56,796 --> 01:01:00,936
after us Thanksgiving this year, they
had done it in late October, previous

1104
01:01:00,936 --> 01:01:04,596
years, and I think since they're not
doing React Berlin, they bumped the

1105
01:01:04,596 --> 01:01:08,346
schedule for React Advance to be sort of
in the middle where those would've been.

1106
01:01:08,766 --> 01:01:10,176
Carl: That's everything
we got for you this month.

1107
01:01:10,266 --> 01:01:11,796
Thank you so much for joining us.

1108
01:01:12,336 --> 01:01:15,486
We'll be back on the last Wednesday
of the month probably, although we had

1109
01:01:15,486 --> 01:01:17,256
to reschedule this month again, sorry.

1110
01:01:17,916 --> 01:01:20,826
Or we will be back in your podcast
feed just as soon as we can.

1111
01:01:21,366 --> 01:01:24,096
We gather sources from, actually
this month we pretty much only

1112
01:01:24,096 --> 01:01:25,386
gathered sources from Reactive Fly.

1113
01:01:25,746 --> 01:01:28,866
It was a good month for, you
know, us staying up to date.

1114
01:01:29,496 --> 01:01:35,316
Yeah, generally we do subscribe to this
week in React, which is a great source.

1115
01:01:35,751 --> 01:01:40,041
Follow lots of people on Blue Sky and
Twitter, the React JS subreddit and just,

1116
01:01:40,071 --> 01:01:41,301
you know, generally all over the internet.

1117
01:01:41,301 --> 01:01:42,561
We try and stay in touch.

1118
01:01:42,651 --> 01:01:46,851
If you see anything that you think that
we should be aware of, definitely post.

1119
01:01:46,851 --> 01:01:49,401
Actually, you should just post it to
the Tech News and Reads channel here.

1120
01:01:49,431 --> 01:01:53,301
I would love it if we could have some
more chatter going on there and it

1121
01:01:53,301 --> 01:01:56,811
really does help us stay on top of
things and helps me understand it.

1122
01:01:56,811 --> 01:01:59,301
If, you know, if you post a link
and then you and somebody else

1123
01:01:59,301 --> 01:02:02,541
have a conversation, I will read
that and it will inform my opinion.

1124
01:02:02,601 --> 01:02:04,281
So yeah, it's a great way to do it.

1125
01:02:04,791 --> 01:02:07,461
If this is a show that you get value
from and wanna support, best way to

1126
01:02:07,461 --> 01:02:12,111
do so is by reviewing us on whatever
platform you listen to or tell your

1127
01:02:12,111 --> 01:02:13,041
friends and coworkers about it.

1128
01:02:13,041 --> 01:02:13,821
So, you know, send 'em a link.

1129
01:02:14,331 --> 01:02:14,691
Cheers.

1130
01:02:14,871 --> 01:02:15,651
Thanks so much for listening.