1 00:00:00,255 --> 00:00:04,172 (inquisitive electronic music) 2 00:00:05,470 --> 00:00:07,150 - This is "Lab Medicine Rounds," 3 00:00:07,150 --> 00:00:09,590 a curated podcast for physicians, 4 00:00:09,590 --> 00:00:12,190 laboratory professionals, and students. 5 00:00:12,190 --> 00:00:15,610 I'm your host, Justin Kreuter, the bow-tie bandit of blood, 6 00:00:15,610 --> 00:00:19,170 a transfusion medicine pathologist at Mayo Clinic. 7 00:00:19,170 --> 00:00:23,060 This year's theme for lab week is "Back to the Lab," 8 00:00:23,060 --> 00:00:27,090 celebrating our past as we look into our future. 9 00:00:27,090 --> 00:00:29,700 So we thought it'd be fun to celebrate this year's theme 10 00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:32,410 by sitting down with one of our laboratory leaders 11 00:00:32,410 --> 00:00:34,410 to discuss why it's important 12 00:00:34,410 --> 00:00:37,530 to look at our past when planning for the future. 13 00:00:37,530 --> 00:00:40,500 So today joining us is Dr. Curt Hanson, 14 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:43,661 profess of laboratory medicine and pathology, 15 00:00:43,661 --> 00:00:46,990 a hematopathology consultant here at Mayo Clinic 16 00:00:46,990 --> 00:00:50,538 and executive vice president and chief medical officer 17 00:00:50,538 --> 00:00:52,900 for Mayo Collaborative Services. 18 00:00:52,900 --> 00:00:55,830 So thank you for joining us today, Dr. Hanson. 19 00:00:55,830 --> 00:00:58,950 - Oh, you know, I first saw your invitation, 20 00:00:58,950 --> 00:01:01,040 I thought Justin's looking for the oldest guy 21 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,500 he can find to add to his calendar here. 22 00:01:03,500 --> 00:01:06,580 So thank you for asking me by the way. 23 00:01:06,580 --> 00:01:07,413 - Yep. 24 00:01:07,413 --> 00:01:09,084 Our audience is looking for the wisdom, 25 00:01:09,084 --> 00:01:13,340 and I know you've got it in spades for us today. 26 00:01:13,340 --> 00:01:14,173 - We'll try. 27 00:01:14,173 --> 00:01:15,600 We'll try our best. 28 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:18,610 - So from a leadership perspective, 29 00:01:18,610 --> 00:01:20,290 as I did your introduction, you know, 30 00:01:20,290 --> 00:01:22,680 you really have a lot of leadership roles, 31 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,860 and certainly you've served for a number of years 32 00:01:25,860 --> 00:01:27,610 in a number of different hats. 33 00:01:27,610 --> 00:01:30,400 You bring a lot of different perspectives 34 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,630 to laboratory medicine and leadership. 35 00:01:32,630 --> 00:01:36,880 And so, you know, why is it important from your perspective 36 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,450 for us to look at our past when planning for our future? 37 00:01:40,450 --> 00:01:41,440 - That's a great question. 38 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,680 I think that one of the first things that comes to mind 39 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:49,190 is it's an opportunity to re-look at and validate 40 00:01:49,190 --> 00:01:51,376 what our principles are. 41 00:01:51,376 --> 00:01:54,530 Too often, we just keep going down the path. 42 00:01:54,530 --> 00:01:56,260 We're busy, you know. 43 00:01:56,260 --> 00:01:59,030 We do today, you go to today's list, 44 00:01:59,030 --> 00:02:00,570 and you do today's list, 45 00:02:00,570 --> 00:02:02,680 and you worry about yesterday's things 46 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:03,950 you didn't get it done. 47 00:02:03,950 --> 00:02:06,180 And we don't take the time to really sit back 48 00:02:06,180 --> 00:02:10,960 and reflect on what's my vision, what are my principles? 49 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,030 And am I upholding those? 50 00:02:13,030 --> 00:02:14,920 Are they still valid? 51 00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:17,100 Do they still work for us? 52 00:02:17,100 --> 00:02:20,110 How can I incorporate them more into what we do? 53 00:02:20,110 --> 00:02:22,787 And I think by looking back, you can really go, 54 00:02:22,787 --> 00:02:24,910 "have I been cons consistent over time? 55 00:02:24,910 --> 00:02:27,238 Have we been consistent over time 56 00:02:27,238 --> 00:02:30,030 with why we do what we do?" 57 00:02:30,030 --> 00:02:32,020 And I think that's really something 58 00:02:32,020 --> 00:02:34,345 we don't spend a lot of time thinking about, 59 00:02:34,345 --> 00:02:37,080 but that really should drive what we do. 60 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,789 It certainly should drive our decision making 61 00:02:39,789 --> 00:02:43,883 and our planning and our prioritization of things. 62 00:02:45,630 --> 00:02:47,760 The other thing that comes to mind and is pretty, 63 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:51,170 I think pretty obvious is you need to always look back 64 00:02:51,170 --> 00:02:53,660 to see what worked and what didn't, 65 00:02:53,660 --> 00:02:57,210 but you gotta be careful, because times change. 66 00:02:57,210 --> 00:02:59,039 I'm involved in a situation right now 67 00:02:59,039 --> 00:03:04,039 in which I'm looking back to how and why 68 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,264 we did things many years ago and kind of going, 69 00:03:08,264 --> 00:03:11,890 I'm consistently going, "what worked, 70 00:03:11,890 --> 00:03:15,990 what didn't work back then, but then what's changed?" 71 00:03:15,990 --> 00:03:18,973 And I think that's, what's really, really critical is, 72 00:03:18,973 --> 00:03:21,560 people always say, you don't wanna repeat 73 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,730 your errors from before, but I think what you gotta remember 74 00:03:25,730 --> 00:03:28,360 is that the situations change 75 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,850 and you have to interpret yesterday's either decisions 76 00:03:32,850 --> 00:03:36,400 or failures in light of what you know today. 77 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,680 And I think that's a really important thing with it all. 78 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,350 You know, change, it comes with change, right? 79 00:03:42,350 --> 00:03:44,810 I mean, change is such an important thing 80 00:03:44,810 --> 00:03:48,631 of what we do and we can't be scared of change. 81 00:03:48,631 --> 00:03:53,631 And I think by thinking about principles and vision 82 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,320 and what you've done in the past, 83 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,700 there's been seldom that I've run across something 84 00:03:57,700 --> 00:04:01,560 that I haven't encountered in the past in some variation 85 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,053 or version with it all. 86 00:04:05,179 --> 00:04:08,610 The last thing I'd probably say is 87 00:04:08,610 --> 00:04:11,092 you need to take time to look back and celebrate, 88 00:04:11,092 --> 00:04:13,610 especially if we got lab week coming up, 89 00:04:13,610 --> 00:04:16,020 think about how hard we press, Justin, 90 00:04:16,020 --> 00:04:19,550 on trying to get everything done, everything we do. 91 00:04:19,550 --> 00:04:21,900 We need to set back a little bit and kind of go, 92 00:04:21,900 --> 00:04:25,520 think back a year, think back two years, three years. 93 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,727 And everybody, if they took the time would go, 94 00:04:27,727 --> 00:04:31,410 "wow, look at how much we've gotten done. 95 00:04:31,410 --> 00:04:33,760 Look at what we've accomplished." 96 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,132 And I think that we need to make sure we, 97 00:04:37,132 --> 00:04:40,540 you know, don't be hard on yourselves or ourselves. 98 00:04:40,540 --> 00:04:43,760 Let's look back, be proud of what we accomplish, 99 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,340 celebrate our accomplishments, 100 00:04:45,340 --> 00:04:48,160 because that keeps you going for the next year 101 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,440 if you can find that sense of accomplishment. 102 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,520 I hope that makes sense to you, Justin. 103 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:55,353 - Absolutely! 104 00:04:55,353 --> 00:04:57,910 I really like how you're highlighting, 105 00:04:57,910 --> 00:05:01,740 what I'm hearing is that change is this constant. 106 00:05:01,740 --> 00:05:04,757 And if I can paraphrase, it almost sounds like, 107 00:05:04,757 --> 00:05:09,757 you know, there is natural, a drift that may occur 108 00:05:09,910 --> 00:05:12,390 and so that we wanna make sure that the changes 109 00:05:12,390 --> 00:05:14,580 that we're making are purposeful. 110 00:05:14,580 --> 00:05:16,970 And I think I hear you highlighting this kind of, 111 00:05:16,970 --> 00:05:18,690 how do we kind of reflect on, 112 00:05:18,690 --> 00:05:21,250 we need to take time to critically reflect, 113 00:05:21,250 --> 00:05:22,750 and I like that you're asking, 114 00:05:22,750 --> 00:05:25,440 pulling out that third question, not just, you know, 115 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,360 what did we do well, what did we not do so well, 116 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,000 but also the what's changed? 117 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,143 'Cause I think a lot of us, myself included, 118 00:05:33,143 --> 00:05:36,570 aren't necessarily thinking about that third question 119 00:05:36,570 --> 00:05:39,080 and certainly context in some ways 120 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,140 might be one of the best drivers of learning. 121 00:05:43,140 --> 00:05:45,770 - Well, just, I mean, think about, you know, 122 00:05:45,770 --> 00:05:48,191 policy, finance, people. 123 00:05:48,191 --> 00:05:51,350 How the people have, you know, are different and changed. 124 00:05:51,350 --> 00:05:54,380 And you know, our knowledge is clearly different today 125 00:05:54,380 --> 00:05:55,850 than what I might have been five, 10, 126 00:05:55,850 --> 00:05:57,293 certainly 20 years ago. 127 00:05:58,290 --> 00:05:59,750 - You know, let me just play, 128 00:05:59,750 --> 00:06:01,500 we're just kind of sticking in this kind of 129 00:06:01,500 --> 00:06:04,190 getting things off in the why focus. 130 00:06:04,190 --> 00:06:06,840 I think I've heard some people sometimes, 131 00:06:06,840 --> 00:06:09,160 if I'm to play a little bit of devil's advocate here, 132 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,154 kind of like about your purpose of celebrating 133 00:06:13,154 --> 00:06:17,230 our successes and celebrating the work we've done. 134 00:06:17,230 --> 00:06:19,595 I completely agree with you, 135 00:06:19,595 --> 00:06:20,810 but I think there's some people sometimes that feel like, 136 00:06:20,810 --> 00:06:23,880 well, "hey, this is my job. 137 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,909 And, you know, I shouldn't, you know, 138 00:06:26,909 --> 00:06:29,160 that's good that I'm doing my job," 139 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:33,270 but sometimes people struggle with celebrating, 140 00:06:33,270 --> 00:06:36,115 and I think also maybe some people, you know, 141 00:06:36,115 --> 00:06:41,115 get nervous about that taking time to celebrate 142 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:45,070 our accomplishes that have been. 143 00:06:45,070 --> 00:06:46,670 What's your perspective on that? 144 00:06:47,586 --> 00:06:52,586 - Well, I mean, it's a part of being a person, right? 145 00:06:54,050 --> 00:06:56,280 I mean, there are, you know, 146 00:06:56,280 --> 00:07:00,060 there's all types of people that we work with. 147 00:07:00,060 --> 00:07:02,573 There are people that, you know, 148 00:07:02,573 --> 00:07:05,042 they just put their head down 149 00:07:05,042 --> 00:07:08,320 and it doesn't matter their degree, their title, 150 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,305 whatever it is, boy, they just, they work, 151 00:07:11,305 --> 00:07:13,610 they come in every day, they work really hard, 152 00:07:13,610 --> 00:07:15,345 they don't want kudos, 153 00:07:15,345 --> 00:07:18,330 they just wanna do their job and do it. 154 00:07:18,330 --> 00:07:20,860 And there's others that, on the other end, 155 00:07:20,860 --> 00:07:22,860 there are people that need motivation 156 00:07:22,860 --> 00:07:25,330 and that's normal. 157 00:07:25,330 --> 00:07:27,990 And I think it's our job as leaders 158 00:07:27,990 --> 00:07:31,470 to use whatever tools that we have, 159 00:07:31,470 --> 00:07:34,310 like this looking back and reflecting on accomplishment 160 00:07:34,310 --> 00:07:36,200 to keep people motivated. 161 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:38,680 And then the majority of people are in between. 162 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,940 You know, we've got folks that really always wanna work, 163 00:07:41,940 --> 00:07:43,260 but, you know, we need to make sure 164 00:07:43,260 --> 00:07:46,360 we take a little bit of time to celebrate them, 165 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:47,450 to thank them. 166 00:07:47,450 --> 00:07:49,630 And that's what lab week is great for, right? 167 00:07:49,630 --> 00:07:52,320 I mean, I think it is a time to sit back 168 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,009 and really kind of go, "wow, what a great profession 169 00:07:55,009 --> 00:07:58,560 we work in and the people that we have." 170 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:02,970 And it's a wonderful time to be able to do that, Justin. 171 00:08:02,970 --> 00:08:05,810 - Thanks for keeping the humanity in it, right? 172 00:08:05,810 --> 00:08:07,130 We're patient centered, 173 00:08:07,130 --> 00:08:10,410 but keeping the humanity in our work is key. 174 00:08:10,410 --> 00:08:13,334 So what are one or two aspects 175 00:08:13,334 --> 00:08:16,001 of pathology lab medicine's past 176 00:08:16,001 --> 00:08:20,544 that you are thinking about celebrating this year? 177 00:08:20,544 --> 00:08:22,110 - What's that, let me think. 178 00:08:22,110 --> 00:08:24,330 You know, there are two, I have two stories. 179 00:08:24,330 --> 00:08:26,070 I got two stories I gotta share with you. 180 00:08:26,070 --> 00:08:27,908 - Stories are the best. 181 00:08:27,908 --> 00:08:30,295 - You know, I'm in the, as I tell people, I'm partway, 182 00:08:30,295 --> 00:08:33,470 I'm a good portion through the fourth quarter of my career, 183 00:08:33,470 --> 00:08:37,089 so I'm entitled to reminisce a little bit, okay? 184 00:08:37,089 --> 00:08:39,640 When I started, I started at the, 185 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,570 my first job was at the University of Michigan, 1987. 186 00:08:42,570 --> 00:08:43,910 So you can do the math. 187 00:08:43,910 --> 00:08:47,820 And a senior laboratory director at that time 188 00:08:47,820 --> 00:08:50,330 who I really respected, he came to me, 189 00:08:50,330 --> 00:08:52,780 this was very early on in my time there. 190 00:08:52,780 --> 00:08:56,768 And he said, "Curt, during your career, 191 00:08:56,768 --> 00:09:01,760 you're gonna see two changes in technology." 192 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,880 And that was being really forward thinking, 193 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,710 because that was going, "wow, you mean every 15 years, 194 00:09:07,710 --> 00:09:09,650 I'm gonna go through two major changes 195 00:09:09,650 --> 00:09:12,030 of technology and knowledge," 196 00:09:12,030 --> 00:09:14,000 and that was really being kind of forward. 197 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,950 And now it's like, "good Lord, it's every 15 months, 198 00:09:17,950 --> 00:09:19,430 there's something new." 199 00:09:19,430 --> 00:09:23,960 And, you know, I was just, I actually was talking 200 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:28,050 to a patient this morning and they had 201 00:09:28,050 --> 00:09:32,730 a very problematic history, they had traveled to Africa, 202 00:09:32,730 --> 00:09:34,130 came back with symptoms 203 00:09:34,130 --> 00:09:36,380 that were really different to define, 204 00:09:36,380 --> 00:09:38,320 and eventually ended up here at Mayo, 205 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,330 and we did our workup, 206 00:09:40,330 --> 00:09:42,560 turned out to be a hematologic disease, 207 00:09:42,560 --> 00:09:44,460 they did the genetic workup, 208 00:09:44,460 --> 00:09:46,820 and they found some really unique findings 209 00:09:46,820 --> 00:09:48,540 by doing NextGen sequencing 210 00:09:48,540 --> 00:09:52,530 and understanding the gene anomalies that were discovered. 211 00:09:52,530 --> 00:09:57,530 And that technology was barely going five years ago, 212 00:09:57,776 --> 00:10:00,690 the knowledge about these particular genes 213 00:10:00,690 --> 00:10:03,360 has just emerged in the last couple of years. 214 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,590 And I think that that patient's experience was, 215 00:10:07,590 --> 00:10:09,983 you know, he came here in 2020, 216 00:10:10,950 --> 00:10:13,970 he wouldn't have had the same experience in 2015, 217 00:10:13,970 --> 00:10:18,970 let alone 2010 or 2000 or 1987 when I started. 218 00:10:19,270 --> 00:10:23,260 So that pace of change is something 219 00:10:23,260 --> 00:10:26,370 that is really amazing to me. 220 00:10:26,370 --> 00:10:31,082 And I think our folks in the lab see it, 221 00:10:31,082 --> 00:10:33,620 but we really need to acknowledge 222 00:10:33,620 --> 00:10:35,570 that it's both good and bad, right? 223 00:10:35,570 --> 00:10:38,040 I mean, it allows us to take care of patients 224 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,422 in amazing ways, but it also puts a lot of pressure 225 00:10:40,422 --> 00:10:42,950 and stress on our staff, 226 00:10:42,950 --> 00:10:45,680 because there's always something new coming at 'em. 227 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:47,130 You know, that type of thing. 228 00:10:48,010 --> 00:10:50,660 So that's one story that will always stick with me 229 00:10:50,660 --> 00:10:53,327 and I laugh about it now, but at the time it was like, 230 00:10:53,327 --> 00:10:54,780 "wow, you know, two? 231 00:10:54,780 --> 00:10:56,849 I'll go through two changes," you know? 232 00:10:56,849 --> 00:11:00,300 And like I said, that was two last year, I think, 233 00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:01,760 if I remember right. 234 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:06,120 The second story was I started residency 235 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:07,410 in lab medicine pathology 236 00:11:07,410 --> 00:11:10,140 up at the University of Minnesota almost pretty soon 237 00:11:10,140 --> 00:11:12,580 40 years ago in 1982. 238 00:11:12,580 --> 00:11:16,464 And I remember this to this day, that my first lab rotation, 239 00:11:16,464 --> 00:11:19,450 everybody starts on off in autopsy, you know? 240 00:11:19,450 --> 00:11:20,960 So my first lab rotation 241 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,530 was in the clinical hematology laboratory. 242 00:11:23,530 --> 00:11:26,370 And I remember, I walked in, I was what? 243 00:11:26,370 --> 00:11:31,370 I don't know, 25 and green. 244 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,300 I looked like about 18, just off the farm, 245 00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:35,880 you know, that type of thing. 246 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:37,747 And I looked around the lab and I thought, 247 00:11:37,747 --> 00:11:39,630 "oh my God, these people, 248 00:11:39,630 --> 00:11:42,270 these texts are going to eat me for lunch." 249 00:11:42,270 --> 00:11:45,180 You know, because they were so impressive. 250 00:11:45,180 --> 00:11:46,810 They knew everything. 251 00:11:46,810 --> 00:11:48,190 They were working hard. 252 00:11:48,190 --> 00:11:52,020 They were organized and I swore that day, 253 00:11:52,020 --> 00:11:54,197 I really, I said this to myself is, 254 00:11:54,197 --> 00:11:56,130 "I gotta get in their good graces 255 00:11:56,130 --> 00:11:58,030 or I'm gonna get killed here." 256 00:11:58,030 --> 00:12:03,030 And that was my first lesson in, you know, 257 00:12:03,630 --> 00:12:07,210 our best asset are our laboratory technologists, 258 00:12:07,210 --> 00:12:09,400 our clinical laboratory scientists. 259 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:10,800 They are incredible. 260 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,513 And I learned so much from them. 261 00:12:15,780 --> 00:12:19,840 Every day I learned tidbits of knowledge. 262 00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:21,657 And very humble, and they would just say, 263 00:12:21,657 --> 00:12:25,480 "Dr. Hanson, I think you ought to do," da-da-da-da-da. 264 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,080 You know, words of wisdom, you know, type of thing. 265 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,210 And to this day, if you need to know something, 266 00:12:33,210 --> 00:12:35,183 walk through the lab and ask the techs. 267 00:12:35,183 --> 00:12:37,944 When there's a problem, they know it, 268 00:12:37,944 --> 00:12:40,670 they know where the problem is coming from. 269 00:12:40,670 --> 00:12:43,080 They know the problem docs out there. 270 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,890 They know the great docs out there. 271 00:12:45,890 --> 00:12:49,780 We don't ask our CLS, our lab folks, 272 00:12:49,780 --> 00:12:52,420 enough questions because frankly, 273 00:12:52,420 --> 00:12:55,470 they're are biggest asset that we have 274 00:12:55,470 --> 00:12:56,520 and they know so much. 275 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,010 And that's the one thing I don't want us to ever lose. 276 00:13:00,010 --> 00:13:03,460 I saw it in day one of me walking into this profession 277 00:13:03,460 --> 00:13:05,283 and it's still true today. 278 00:13:06,210 --> 00:13:08,040 - Those are wonderful stories. 279 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,010 I mean, so it sounds like you're celebrating 280 00:13:11,010 --> 00:13:14,040 the pace of change, the history of the pace of change 281 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,380 that we've had in laboratory medicine, 282 00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:20,280 and then the quality of people that are attracted 283 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,710 into this profession of medical laboratory science. 284 00:13:24,710 --> 00:13:28,294 So how do you see these aspects that you're celebrating 285 00:13:28,294 --> 00:13:31,533 informing kind of the future, you know, 286 00:13:31,533 --> 00:13:35,906 kind of the future projections of success in our field? 287 00:13:35,906 --> 00:13:37,883 - We have to be ready for change, 288 00:13:39,010 --> 00:13:43,730 and I think there's actually, there's a lot of discipline 289 00:13:43,730 --> 00:13:46,937 out there that has been, and you know this Justin, 290 00:13:46,937 --> 00:13:48,070 that's been developing. 291 00:13:48,070 --> 00:13:49,580 I mean, you've been a part of that, 292 00:13:49,580 --> 00:13:51,360 that's been developed over time about 293 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:52,660 how do you deal with change? 294 00:13:52,660 --> 00:13:54,240 How do you make change successful? 295 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,011 How do you incorporate change? 296 00:13:56,011 --> 00:14:00,500 And I think we really, we need to move beyond 297 00:14:00,500 --> 00:14:02,700 some of our historical approaches to things 298 00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:07,270 and really kind of grab that discipline of change 299 00:14:07,270 --> 00:14:09,030 and really drive it in the laboratory 300 00:14:09,030 --> 00:14:11,369 and challenge how we do things. 301 00:14:11,369 --> 00:14:16,130 Think about how we organize our laboratories. 302 00:14:16,130 --> 00:14:18,120 They're either by technology, 303 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,170 or they may be by a particular medical discipline, 304 00:14:22,170 --> 00:14:25,101 and we should challenge the heck out of, 305 00:14:25,101 --> 00:14:26,950 and go back to what I just talked about 306 00:14:26,950 --> 00:14:29,170 with that NextGen sequencing and genetic things, 307 00:14:29,170 --> 00:14:33,890 how much that's changed how we work out particular things. 308 00:14:33,890 --> 00:14:36,183 I think we really need to challenge ourselves 309 00:14:36,183 --> 00:14:38,690 as part of this change process. 310 00:14:38,690 --> 00:14:40,320 How do we organize ourselves? 311 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,100 What is the right way to put a lab together 312 00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:46,844 to maintain it for the future, to get the most, 313 00:14:46,844 --> 00:14:51,090 you know, medical and scientific knowledge out of it. 314 00:14:51,090 --> 00:14:53,390 And I think the second thing is gonna be 315 00:14:53,390 --> 00:14:56,397 right off that story that I told you. 316 00:14:56,397 --> 00:14:58,970 Our people are our assets. 317 00:14:58,970 --> 00:15:00,700 Period. Straight up. 318 00:15:00,700 --> 00:15:02,490 We don't always recognize that, 319 00:15:02,490 --> 00:15:04,465 we certainly don't celebrate it enough, 320 00:15:04,465 --> 00:15:06,998 we don't ask enough of them. 321 00:15:06,998 --> 00:15:10,090 I have, what I've always found is that 322 00:15:11,470 --> 00:15:13,620 you can't get something out of people 323 00:15:13,620 --> 00:15:16,280 if you don't ask something of them. 324 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,993 And I have seldom found laboratory people 325 00:15:19,993 --> 00:15:23,934 if by asking them to do something, 326 00:15:23,934 --> 00:15:27,370 seldom do they not achieve it. 327 00:15:27,370 --> 00:15:30,470 We just often don't ask enough of them. 328 00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:32,646 I mean, not working harder, 329 00:15:32,646 --> 00:15:35,310 but how to use their head and their brain 330 00:15:35,310 --> 00:15:38,290 and their problem solving and all that type of thing. 331 00:15:38,290 --> 00:15:39,755 I think that looking back, 332 00:15:39,755 --> 00:15:41,751 that's the one thing that's been constant 333 00:15:41,751 --> 00:15:43,670 is the skillset of our people 334 00:15:43,670 --> 00:15:46,150 and therefore the need to really recognize 335 00:15:46,150 --> 00:15:49,250 and include them in the process here going forward. 336 00:15:49,250 --> 00:15:51,520 Hope that makes, I'm rambling a little bit, 337 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,140 I hope that makes sense, Justin. 338 00:15:53,140 --> 00:15:54,250 - No, this makes perfect sense. 339 00:15:54,250 --> 00:15:56,750 And I see, you know, this kind of thread continue 340 00:15:56,750 --> 00:15:58,640 about really questioning these assumptions 341 00:15:58,640 --> 00:15:59,560 that we've come through, 342 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,330 but as you're talking about this constant 343 00:16:02,330 --> 00:16:07,239 of the quality of our team in the lab, 344 00:16:07,239 --> 00:16:10,300 I've heard a lot of, you know, 345 00:16:10,300 --> 00:16:13,703 it's a challenge in current days to attract, 346 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,880 you know, new people into this field of laboratory medicine. 347 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:21,470 Do you think that there's, 348 00:16:21,470 --> 00:16:26,013 do you have thoughts for how we might approach this, 349 00:16:26,013 --> 00:16:30,720 you know, as a healthcare system of attracting, 350 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:35,653 you know, bright students into medical laboratory science? 351 00:16:36,650 --> 00:16:39,930 - I often use the analogy that we're like the Wizard of Oz. 352 00:16:39,930 --> 00:16:43,455 We're the man behind, the man and woman behind the curtain 353 00:16:43,455 --> 00:16:45,820 and everything turns to gold, right? 354 00:16:45,820 --> 00:16:47,870 But they never know who's behind the curtain. 355 00:16:47,870 --> 00:16:49,070 That's the lab. 356 00:16:49,070 --> 00:16:50,710 They never see us. 357 00:16:50,710 --> 00:16:54,580 And if there's anything we need to do, 358 00:16:54,580 --> 00:16:59,050 we have to figure out how to really erase 359 00:16:59,050 --> 00:17:03,851 some of our invisibility that we have. 360 00:17:03,851 --> 00:17:06,930 Getting ourselves more visible is really, 361 00:17:06,930 --> 00:17:09,460 probably the most important thing. 362 00:17:09,460 --> 00:17:14,460 And that means visible not only to future employees 363 00:17:14,487 --> 00:17:19,487 and students or colleges, but also in our own institution. 364 00:17:19,550 --> 00:17:22,300 You know, I don't know if you've noticed here at Mayo, 365 00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:25,033 Justin, but over the last year or so, 366 00:17:25,033 --> 00:17:27,700 we have been really successful 367 00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:31,029 at putting out laboratory studies into our weekly, 368 00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:34,249 you know, the Mayo newsletter that comes out on Friday, 369 00:17:34,249 --> 00:17:36,410 you know, electronic, you know, 370 00:17:36,410 --> 00:17:40,360 but whatever it's called Mayo This Week, or whatever it is, 371 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:42,840 look at how many lab stories are showing up 372 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,000 in that thing every week. 373 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,387 I have heard so many people from non-laboratory areas say, 374 00:17:48,387 --> 00:17:52,210 "wow, the laboratory is really impressive!" 375 00:17:52,210 --> 00:17:56,252 So I think we really need to figure out collectively 376 00:17:56,252 --> 00:17:59,683 as a, certainly as a profession, 377 00:17:59,683 --> 00:18:01,590 but also at the local level, 378 00:18:01,590 --> 00:18:05,500 how can we make ourselves more visible locally? 379 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:08,530 And then I think that by itself will help land 380 00:18:08,530 --> 00:18:09,363 to that next step. 381 00:18:09,363 --> 00:18:11,440 If we get used to being more visible locally 382 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,410 within our own organizations, 383 00:18:13,410 --> 00:18:16,510 we can become more visible into those, 384 00:18:16,510 --> 00:18:20,467 you know, whether it be educational areas and locations 385 00:18:23,047 --> 00:18:27,540 or other just in general within the community. 386 00:18:27,540 --> 00:18:30,560 I think visibility is obviously the key 387 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,050 and we go into it with one hand tied behind our back 388 00:18:34,050 --> 00:18:36,599 because we do things so well and we do it 389 00:18:36,599 --> 00:18:38,200 in such an invisible way. 390 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,083 We just get asked and we do things. 391 00:18:41,331 --> 00:18:44,317 - Mm hmm, and what I hear too in your answer is, 392 00:18:44,317 --> 00:18:45,840 you know, with visibility, 393 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,090 it's not just a one and done sort of thing, 394 00:18:49,090 --> 00:18:51,300 but your answer kind of talking about, you know, 395 00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:53,950 how many of these stories have made it 396 00:18:53,950 --> 00:18:55,870 into Mayo This Week, right? 397 00:18:55,870 --> 00:18:58,070 So it's not just showing this once, 398 00:18:58,070 --> 00:19:00,930 but we're continuing to share these stories 399 00:19:00,930 --> 00:19:03,940 so that our community continues to see, 400 00:19:03,940 --> 00:19:05,920 and to use your words, 401 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,750 erase the invisibility of the laboratory. 402 00:19:08,750 --> 00:19:09,583 - Absolutely. 403 00:19:09,583 --> 00:19:10,733 Really critical. 404 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,730 You know, and this is a challenge all across medicine. 405 00:19:14,730 --> 00:19:16,650 It's not just the laboratory. 406 00:19:16,650 --> 00:19:19,790 You know, and COVID obviously has done nobody any favors 407 00:19:19,790 --> 00:19:22,630 in so many ways, but, you know, 408 00:19:22,630 --> 00:19:26,670 I think healthcare in general is running into 409 00:19:26,670 --> 00:19:30,480 how do you get enough of the right people, 410 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,220 enough of the right dedicated people 411 00:19:32,220 --> 00:19:34,725 with the right, you know, mission focus, 412 00:19:34,725 --> 00:19:37,630 to walk into the jobs that we really need 413 00:19:37,630 --> 00:19:38,470 here in healthcare. 414 00:19:38,470 --> 00:19:39,690 So it's not just labs. 415 00:19:39,690 --> 00:19:41,520 I mean, obviously we're very parochial 416 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:43,065 in thinking about the labs, 417 00:19:43,065 --> 00:19:46,471 but it really extends across all of healthcare. 418 00:19:46,471 --> 00:19:48,027 - To flip this in another direction, 419 00:19:48,027 --> 00:19:51,330 I just wanna kinda close out maybe this podcast and ask you, 420 00:19:51,330 --> 00:19:54,050 you know, certainly as we're celebrating lab week 421 00:19:54,050 --> 00:19:57,567 with this podcast episode, you know, 422 00:19:57,567 --> 00:19:59,510 there might be something that, you know, 423 00:19:59,510 --> 00:20:01,070 certainly we can celebrate it. 424 00:20:01,070 --> 00:20:02,270 You know, we've done our work, 425 00:20:02,270 --> 00:20:03,960 but is there something that we've done 426 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,792 that maybe we shouldn't continue that we need to change 427 00:20:07,792 --> 00:20:10,528 and kind of discontinue a certain process 428 00:20:10,528 --> 00:20:13,423 or way that laboratory works? 429 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,920 - Well, I think we should immediately stop 430 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:18,100 pipetting by mouth. 431 00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:22,203 I think that needs to stop immediately. (laughs) 432 00:20:23,425 --> 00:20:25,963 - You're spreading fake news now. 433 00:20:27,940 --> 00:20:30,660 - No, no, that is not happening at Mayo Clinic. 434 00:20:30,660 --> 00:20:31,493 You're right. 435 00:20:31,493 --> 00:20:32,833 I gotta be sure about that. 436 00:20:34,260 --> 00:20:35,520 Actually it was still going, 437 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:40,170 when I started, it was optional in a couple of laboratories, 438 00:20:40,170 --> 00:20:42,040 because of the nature of their specimens 439 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,250 and then obviously AIDS emerged in the mid eighties 440 00:20:45,250 --> 00:20:48,170 and all of a sudden, a lot more knowledge 441 00:20:48,170 --> 00:20:50,680 about hepatitis came about and it just stopped. 442 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,156 Thank God. 443 00:20:52,156 --> 00:20:54,740 It's really an interesting question. 444 00:20:54,740 --> 00:20:57,170 I don't quite know how to answer it. 445 00:20:57,170 --> 00:21:00,840 I guess, I wish I had 446 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:03,490 some big overarching philosophical thing 447 00:21:03,490 --> 00:21:07,160 I could throw at you, Justin, but I really can't. 448 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,963 The thing that probably comes to my mind is 449 00:21:10,963 --> 00:21:13,719 I think we're of the, 450 00:21:13,719 --> 00:21:18,290 we're clearly a service-oriented profession. 451 00:21:18,290 --> 00:21:20,623 We're asked and we give. 452 00:21:21,492 --> 00:21:24,260 You know, a lot of times we have the 453 00:21:24,260 --> 00:21:27,190 any test, any time, any way you want to it, 454 00:21:27,190 --> 00:21:29,130 we'll give it to you. 455 00:21:29,130 --> 00:21:31,530 And I think we really need to, 456 00:21:31,530 --> 00:21:36,530 in this era of increasingly limited dollars for healthcare, 457 00:21:37,731 --> 00:21:41,460 not an unlimited supply of people, 458 00:21:41,460 --> 00:21:44,440 we have to start asking the question of, 459 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,260 let's use our knowledge and expertise to say, 460 00:21:48,260 --> 00:21:51,120 let's be sure we're doing the right tests 461 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:52,900 for the right reason. 462 00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:54,820 And I think as you look at the horizon 463 00:21:54,820 --> 00:21:57,410 and you see the increasing emergence 464 00:21:57,410 --> 00:22:00,300 of artificial intelligence or augmented intelligence, 465 00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:02,070 depending on what you call it, 466 00:22:02,070 --> 00:22:03,730 it's really gonna lend itself 467 00:22:03,730 --> 00:22:06,300 to really asking those kind of questions of, 468 00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:09,483 let's be sure we're doing the right for our patients, 469 00:22:09,483 --> 00:22:13,610 whether it's under testing or over testing, either one. 470 00:22:13,610 --> 00:22:15,580 I think that needs to be the, 471 00:22:15,580 --> 00:22:18,411 we need to move from that mindset of any test, any time, 472 00:22:18,411 --> 00:22:22,010 to really, let's be sure we're doing the right test 473 00:22:22,010 --> 00:22:23,400 and not the one that you want, 474 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,490 and don't forget about doing this test, 475 00:22:25,490 --> 00:22:27,420 because this is the one you really need. 476 00:22:27,420 --> 00:22:29,570 So I think that mentality. 477 00:22:29,570 --> 00:22:33,919 The mentality of that, the mentality of visibility, 478 00:22:33,919 --> 00:22:37,579 if there were any two things that I'd like to see us, 479 00:22:37,579 --> 00:22:41,472 if I look back in 10 years as I sit in my rocking chair, 480 00:22:41,472 --> 00:22:45,780 I really hope that's what I see in our profession. 481 00:22:45,780 --> 00:22:46,613 - Yeah. 482 00:22:46,613 --> 00:22:49,599 You really have tied this together quite well 483 00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:51,730 with that thought, right? 484 00:22:51,730 --> 00:22:55,090 'Cause certainly, that's critically examining, 485 00:22:55,090 --> 00:22:58,800 you know, what's our way and what's our practice, 486 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,800 and, you know, certainly by making us, you know, 487 00:23:04,230 --> 00:23:07,150 how do we shift from service orientation 488 00:23:07,150 --> 00:23:10,660 to really being colleagues, you know, equals 489 00:23:10,660 --> 00:23:15,036 with our other, you know, healthcare professionals, 490 00:23:15,036 --> 00:23:18,060 that's really going to one, help us 491 00:23:18,060 --> 00:23:20,960 to be able to advocate for best laboratory practice 492 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,390 to support the clinical practice, 493 00:23:22,390 --> 00:23:26,616 but also certainly make us more visible as well. 494 00:23:26,616 --> 00:23:30,070 - I'm full of editorials at this time of my career. 495 00:23:30,070 --> 00:23:31,570 And one of the things, 496 00:23:31,570 --> 00:23:33,350 I don't remember if I told you this 497 00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:36,190 when you wrote rotated through once upon a time, 498 00:23:36,190 --> 00:23:40,130 but I typically tell my residents when I rotate through 499 00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:42,380 is "you are a clinician. 500 00:23:42,380 --> 00:23:44,930 You're every bit as much of a clinician 501 00:23:44,930 --> 00:23:47,090 as any of our colleagues that we work with 502 00:23:47,090 --> 00:23:48,490 across the street. 503 00:23:48,490 --> 00:23:49,760 Never forget that." 504 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,380 It's really important, because I think we need to look at 505 00:23:52,380 --> 00:23:53,640 now, I'm not talking about, 506 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,420 I'm moving beyond the technologists in the laboratories 507 00:23:56,420 --> 00:23:58,600 to folks at our level. 508 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,480 We need to always think of ourselves 509 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,090 that we are every bit is involved with and responsible for 510 00:24:04,090 --> 00:24:06,470 and take and care of our patients. 511 00:24:06,470 --> 00:24:09,720 And I think that's an important mindset. 512 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,460 A lot of these things are the mindsets, 513 00:24:11,460 --> 00:24:13,240 I think, that we need to really work on 514 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,053 as a profession, Justin, as I look at this. 515 00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:19,223 - Excellent. 516 00:24:19,223 --> 00:24:21,328 We've been rounding with Dr. Curt Hanson. 517 00:24:21,328 --> 00:24:25,010 Thank you so much for taking the time to talk about this 518 00:24:25,010 --> 00:24:28,300 and celebrate lab week with our listeners. 519 00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:29,133 - It's been great. 520 00:24:29,133 --> 00:24:30,124 What a great time. 521 00:24:30,124 --> 00:24:32,230 I can check off my bucket list, 522 00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:34,580 I've had an interview with the Bow Tie Bandit. 523 00:24:34,580 --> 00:24:35,880 This is fabulous. 524 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:36,810 - That's right! 525 00:24:36,810 --> 00:24:40,790 And to all of our listeners, thank you for joining us today. 526 00:24:40,790 --> 00:24:43,270 We invite you to share your thoughts and suggestions 527 00:24:43,270 --> 00:24:44,250 via email. (inquisitive electronic music) 528 00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:49,033 Please direct any suggestions to mcleducation@mayo.edu 529 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:51,840 and reference this podcast. 530 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,180 If you've enjoyed lab medicine rounds podcast, 531 00:24:54,180 --> 00:24:55,470 please subscribe. 532 00:24:55,470 --> 00:24:57,330 Until our next rounds together, 533 00:24:57,330 --> 00:25:01,050 we encourage you to continue to connect lab medicine 534 00:25:01,050 --> 00:25:05,363 and the clinical practice through insightful conversations.