WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.410 Eric Karkovack: I'm your host, Eric Kovac, and today I've got the co-founders of 00:00:04.410 --> 00:00:08.300 Clay, Zachary Hamed and Matthew Achar. 00:00:08.910 --> 00:00:11.160 they founded Clay in 2018. 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:12.090 Is that right, guys? 00:00:13.170 --> 00:00:13.559 Matthew Achariam: Correct. 00:00:13.920 --> 00:00:14.190 Eric Karkovack: Yep. 00:00:14.909 --> 00:00:15.150 Sounds right. 00:00:15.240 --> 00:00:17.820 Thanks for, for, thanks for being on with me. 00:00:17.919 --> 00:00:21.490 so I, I think Clay is an interesting product. 00:00:21.949 --> 00:00:25.699 we're gonna get into the, Acquisition by automatic, in a little bit. 00:00:25.699 --> 00:00:31.369 But this, this app is kind of interesting to me because, you know, we have our 00:00:31.369 --> 00:00:33.920 contacts so spread out these days, right? 00:00:34.370 --> 00:00:37.730 you've got your Facebook accounts, your LinkedIn accounts, Twitter. 00:00:38.420 --> 00:00:41.180 Every, every, our, our stuff is spread out all over the place. 00:00:41.180 --> 00:00:45.830 And I, I, I was doing a little bit of research and I honestly have not heard 00:00:45.830 --> 00:00:48.230 of Clay before this, this, past week. 00:00:48.800 --> 00:00:50.600 But it is a really cool app. 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:53.240 I, I really am interested to hear a little bit more about it. 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:58.390 So why don't you, tell us a little bit about how it started and, who it's for. 00:00:59.949 --> 00:01:00.699 Yeah, absolutely. 00:01:00.699 --> 00:01:01.000 Thank you 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:02.050 Zachary Hamed: Eric, for having us. 00:01:02.099 --> 00:01:02.610 we. 00:01:03.254 --> 00:01:08.364 Started Clay, because we felt that exact pain point that, sort of our contacts 00:01:08.364 --> 00:01:11.544 were in so many di disparate places. 00:01:11.644 --> 00:01:15.534 you know, I think a lot of people have their phone contacts, and 00:01:15.534 --> 00:01:17.494 they have, you know, your top. 00:01:17.839 --> 00:01:20.119 You know, family members in there, friends in there. 00:01:20.369 --> 00:01:24.909 but there's a long set of people below that that you add over time, business 00:01:24.909 --> 00:01:29.579 relationships per, personal relationships, that, often you'll just add and you'll 00:01:29.579 --> 00:01:33.799 never, You'll never sort of re-look at again, in your phone contacts. 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:39.600 And so what, Matt and I both had experiences where, we were sort of 00:01:39.600 --> 00:01:44.030 very naturally trying to, keep in touch with people over time and that, and, 00:01:44.030 --> 00:01:45.680 and we're intentionally broad there. 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.270 You know, it's not just, personal connections or professional connections. 00:01:49.270 --> 00:01:50.199 It's both, and. 00:01:50.425 --> 00:01:54.355 We had been burned by a lot of previous apps that had come in the space. 00:01:54.385 --> 00:01:58.415 you know, in the early, you know, 2010s late two thousands. 00:01:58.445 --> 00:02:02.155 there are a lot of, either contact apps or Web 2.0, 00:02:02.155 --> 00:02:06.735 sort of social apps, like social address, book type apps, all of which, you know, 00:02:06.835 --> 00:02:11.185 tried to pull from your, maybe your Twitter graph or your Facebook, you 00:02:11.185 --> 00:02:12.475 know, friends and things like that. 00:02:12.895 --> 00:02:16.035 And, Very quickly, you know, they would last one or two years 00:02:16.035 --> 00:02:16.755 and they would be shut down. 00:02:16.755 --> 00:02:20.415 And so what, when we started Clay, we had a few core. 00:02:21.255 --> 00:02:25.015 Principles and tenants, but one of them was, number one, that these are 00:02:25.015 --> 00:02:26.755 your contacts, they should be yours. 00:02:26.805 --> 00:02:30.225 there's a lot of sort of data, ownership and portability that 00:02:30.225 --> 00:02:31.475 we believed in, around that. 00:02:31.835 --> 00:02:35.245 and then there was also this, there was a very strong design ethos. 00:02:35.305 --> 00:02:39.245 We really wanted to make it something that you enjoyed using, that felt at home on 00:02:39.245 --> 00:02:41.465 your home screen that was very tightly integrated with all of the different 00:02:41.465 --> 00:02:43.595 ecosystems that we partner with today. 00:02:44.050 --> 00:02:49.190 and then, Matt and I also, like, we have been in the tech ecosystem, tech community 00:02:49.190 --> 00:02:52.550 for, since graduating college basically. 00:02:52.600 --> 00:02:55.770 and, we got our start, you know, developing WordPress sites. 00:02:55.770 --> 00:02:55.920 So I. 00:02:56.440 --> 00:03:01.520 I think that, ethos of, you know, let's have plugins, let's have, you 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:05.980 know, integrations that allow you to extend and, and build the, build the 00:03:05.980 --> 00:03:08.080 product into what you want it to be. 00:03:08.190 --> 00:03:11.740 that was very sort of core to sort of what we wanted, clay to be. 00:03:11.740 --> 00:03:14.910 And so we, We actually just built it for ourselves. 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:16.700 we're both sort of engineers. 00:03:16.730 --> 00:03:20.480 and you know, I built the iPhone app and Matt built the website and the 00:03:20.540 --> 00:03:25.790 backend and the design and and we just sort of like put up a, a landing site 00:03:25.790 --> 00:03:27.140 and said like, does anybody want this? 00:03:27.180 --> 00:03:30.230 and we actually did that with a story, which is still on our website Play 00:03:30.230 --> 00:03:34.780 Earth slash Story, where we talked about, Actually David Rockefeller who 00:03:34.780 --> 00:03:39.160 had index cards, and he would like take notes out of like every meeting he had. 00:03:39.160 --> 00:03:42.980 And, just like a really interesting sort of, vignette about somebody 00:03:42.980 --> 00:03:44.120 who, you know, did this. 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:45.860 And, and when we put that up, people. 00:03:46.235 --> 00:03:48.515 Came outta droves and were like, Hey, I actually do this too. 00:03:48.515 --> 00:03:52.215 I just take notes after meetings or I, I just like jot down in my notes 00:03:52.215 --> 00:03:55.095 app like, you know, a few things that I remember about a person. 00:03:55.375 --> 00:03:59.755 and so that was really the origin, of clay and, and we then set off to build, 00:04:00.005 --> 00:04:01.595 what we thought would be the best. 00:04:01.635 --> 00:04:03.285 we call it a home for your relationships. 00:04:03.345 --> 00:04:06.285 so a place where your personal professional. 00:04:06.740 --> 00:04:10.510 Friends, connections, people can live, along with the information about them. 00:04:12.010 --> 00:04:14.320 Eric Karkovack: Yeah, I, I thought I read that story about Mr. 00:04:14.320 --> 00:04:16.420 Rockefeller and I thought that was very interesting. 00:04:16.450 --> 00:04:21.340 you know, somebody in that position to keep this, this book basically of all, 00:04:21.490 --> 00:04:25.600 of all the contacts he made, no matter who they were or where they were from. 00:04:26.110 --> 00:04:29.140 you know, just that, that ability to go back and, and remember 00:04:29.140 --> 00:04:30.880 something, a detail about somebody. 00:04:30.880 --> 00:04:31.300 So I could see. 00:04:31.915 --> 00:04:34.815 How Clay kind of, is the modern version of that. 00:04:35.355 --> 00:04:39.195 And I think, as I said, I think it's needed because we have so 00:04:39.195 --> 00:04:40.605 many different social networks. 00:04:40.605 --> 00:04:43.475 We have so many different places to, to connect with people. 00:04:44.015 --> 00:04:46.505 I see all the integrations you guys have right now. 00:04:46.535 --> 00:04:48.456 I see chat, GPT as part of it. 00:04:48.905 --> 00:04:53.475 Gmail, Google Calendar, Facebook, X Notion, iMessage. 00:04:54.035 --> 00:04:55.685 there are a few others going in there. 00:04:56.525 --> 00:04:57.275 I mean, I. 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:02.060 What was the challenge maybe in getting that interface to work with all of 00:05:02.060 --> 00:05:07.650 those different, services and to kind of tie it in in a way that folks using 00:05:07.650 --> 00:05:11.190 the service could actually kind of, you know, easily read and understand 00:05:12.690 --> 00:05:13.020 Matthew Achariam: total? 00:05:13.530 --> 00:05:18.210 this is a, we could spend a lot of time on this, and I think the, the main principle 00:05:18.210 --> 00:05:19.620 that drove us when we were sort of. 00:05:21.105 --> 00:05:25.125 Understanding and, and solving this, this need was really understanding the problem. 00:05:25.125 --> 00:05:30.405 So I think last, and I, Zach tallied this number up, like we almost had a 00:05:30.405 --> 00:05:35.565 thousand discussions via email, via calls like this, with just people 00:05:35.565 --> 00:05:37.965 just trying to understand really deeply what they were trying to do. 00:05:37.965 --> 00:05:40.605 And I think there were a couple of themes that emerged. 00:05:40.935 --> 00:05:41.985 One thing was that. 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:44.940 This, this idea that everything is fragmented and everywhere. 00:05:44.970 --> 00:05:48.060 And so we said, cool, the first thing that we need to do is really 00:05:48.060 --> 00:05:49.680 bring everyone into one place. 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:52.350 And so that's why Home Fear Relationships is, is, was, was 00:05:52.350 --> 00:05:53.790 the tagline that we came up with. 00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:57.420 Once we had everyone in that one place, it was then, okay, what do you do with this? 00:05:57.420 --> 00:05:59.280 And so most people really. 00:05:59.835 --> 00:06:03.075 Had a lot of issues with reaching the limits of their memory. 00:06:03.075 --> 00:06:05.865 So if you look into the studies, there's Dunbar number, there's a whole host 00:06:05.865 --> 00:06:09.405 of other things that talks about the limits of us as humans, which, you know, 00:06:09.495 --> 00:06:14.505 tops out at having an, a general level awareness about of a, of 150 people or so. 00:06:14.625 --> 00:06:17.715 And so once you reach that edge, it becomes actually very, very 00:06:17.715 --> 00:06:21.735 difficult biologically for us to keep those relationships top of mind. 00:06:21.735 --> 00:06:23.085 So we said, Hey, let's just. 00:06:23.385 --> 00:06:24.645 Develop a suite of tools. 00:06:24.675 --> 00:06:27.675 'cause we're tool builders that actually address those things. 00:06:27.855 --> 00:06:31.065 And it all the way from like automated reconnect reminders 00:06:31.065 --> 00:06:32.685 to bringing key moments in. 00:06:32.685 --> 00:06:34.635 And so that was that set of features. 00:06:34.635 --> 00:06:36.105 And so we have a bunch of features around that. 00:06:36.315 --> 00:06:39.805 And finally, once you have that all in one place, Zach alluded 00:06:39.955 --> 00:06:42.625 to this earlier, but there's this idea of data portability where your 00:06:42.625 --> 00:06:44.305 relationships are inherently yours. 00:06:44.365 --> 00:06:46.465 You need a beautiful place for them to live. 00:06:46.980 --> 00:06:48.270 Then you wanna do things with them. 00:06:48.270 --> 00:06:52.140 So whether it's moving them into chat, GPT, so you can, you can ask queries of 00:06:52.140 --> 00:06:56.910 your network or productivity software or emails or weddings or what have you. 00:06:57.060 --> 00:06:58.530 We had to make those very clear. 00:06:58.530 --> 00:07:02.100 So those, those were the three sort of like problem areas that we, we 00:07:02.100 --> 00:07:04.350 noticed and we said, let's just keep. 00:07:04.945 --> 00:07:07.525 Listening to our customers and solving problems. 00:07:07.525 --> 00:07:11.185 And it, it sounds very simple, but it took us years to sort of like hone in 00:07:11.185 --> 00:07:15.655 on that and, and really like craft and refine, you know, through each iteration. 00:07:16.005 --> 00:07:17.775 and we ship very, very quickly. 00:07:17.865 --> 00:07:20.795 We have, weekly, product cycles and, and we almost ship. 00:07:21.140 --> 00:07:24.570 Daily in a lot of cases, for different features. 00:07:24.570 --> 00:07:28.590 And so that allowed us to really address that wide swath of problems. 00:07:28.590 --> 00:07:31.990 And, it just, just keeps going back to this human aspect of it, right? 00:07:31.990 --> 00:07:35.750 Like human a, sort of human focused design, which, which has been very 00:07:35.750 --> 00:07:37.939 popular lately in consumer software. 00:07:39.230 --> 00:07:42.610 Eric Karkovack: Yeah, I mean that, I can only imagine the, challenge just 00:07:42.610 --> 00:07:45.400 in working with all the different APIs that you have to get through. 00:07:45.670 --> 00:07:46.960 I, I know just working with. 00:07:47.455 --> 00:07:51.265 Made as APIs or Google's APIs can be a challenge in itself. 00:07:51.265 --> 00:07:54.625 So then you're kind of multiplying that by all of these different 00:07:54.625 --> 00:07:57.745 services you're trying to pull together and, and put it into something 00:07:57.745 --> 00:07:59.465 that, like is easy to consume. 00:07:59.855 --> 00:08:03.035 So I can only imagine, you know, what you've had to go through for that. 00:08:03.425 --> 00:08:07.295 now I, I've also seen that you guys have some AI capabilities 00:08:07.295 --> 00:08:10.865 with this now, including the cool little demo on your site where. 00:08:11.390 --> 00:08:15.270 You know, you can, email someone through an AI prompt and, and invite 00:08:15.270 --> 00:08:17.040 them to dinner or something like that. 00:08:17.520 --> 00:08:22.950 how important is that to where you guys are going here as, as we move on? 00:08:23.820 --> 00:08:28.070 Zachary Hamed: Yeah, I think, you know, we are users of these products. 00:08:28.070 --> 00:08:30.325 We, you know, are trying to understand sort of the. 00:08:30.785 --> 00:08:32.885 Edges of what they make possible. 00:08:32.985 --> 00:08:36.585 and I think our, again, like Matt said, a lot of what we do is driven 00:08:36.615 --> 00:08:40.245 by our users and driven by our sort of what they're looking to do and 00:08:40.245 --> 00:08:41.175 where they're looking to do it. 00:08:41.175 --> 00:08:44.475 And a lot of them have moved a lot of their productivity work 00:08:44.475 --> 00:08:46.005 into some of these tools now. 00:08:46.415 --> 00:08:52.935 a lot of what we think about is, number one, what, what does our, Data set, 00:08:52.995 --> 00:08:56.585 make possible that, you know, it is not possible in these tools today. 00:08:56.945 --> 00:09:00.275 what we found is just using it on like my personal network. 00:09:00.275 --> 00:09:03.635 When you have, when you're looking for someone, when you're trying to draft 00:09:03.635 --> 00:09:07.525 an email, when you're, you know, when you're, doing any sort of, not only 00:09:07.525 --> 00:09:09.745 writing work, but also productivity work. 00:09:10.005 --> 00:09:14.575 It's incredibly helpful either via the chat GPT integration we have or via, like 00:09:14.575 --> 00:09:17.605 MCP tools, which we, we also open sourced. 00:09:17.905 --> 00:09:22.735 To be able to bring in knowledge of your contacts, and, and we have 00:09:22.735 --> 00:09:24.025 that video like you mentioned. 00:09:24.275 --> 00:09:27.295 what we're trying to show there is that, the biggest missing piece we 00:09:27.295 --> 00:09:33.535 believe today in, in a lot of these AI tools is, the personal contexts part. 00:09:33.595 --> 00:09:36.495 and, there are many different ways, different tools. 00:09:36.495 --> 00:09:38.385 Every company's trying to solve that in a different way. 00:09:38.435 --> 00:09:39.695 even last week, you saw. 00:09:40.350 --> 00:09:44.360 at WW DC, apple is trying to do, more on device, context 00:09:44.360 --> 00:09:45.710 and learning, and inference. 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:46.960 and we're very excited about that. 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:49.540 In day one, automatic product, day one was featured in that as well. 00:09:49.860 --> 00:09:54.120 and so whether it's on device, whether it's, as part of, you know, an MCP 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:57.960 tool, as part of CLO or something, or it's a chat GPT integration, what we're 00:09:57.960 --> 00:09:59.640 trying to think about is what is that? 00:09:59.880 --> 00:10:04.420 unlock as a product experience and, and as a, as an output for some of these tools. 00:10:04.420 --> 00:10:10.450 And so we did an initial rollout of Nexus, RAA copilot, and, our members were back 00:10:10.450 --> 00:10:14.340 to us and they were like, you know, we, I, I use this for, making groups of people 00:10:14.340 --> 00:10:15.810 and searching my network more quickly. 00:10:15.810 --> 00:10:17.250 I use it for drafting emails. 00:10:17.250 --> 00:10:19.860 I, I use it for drafting intros between two people where. 00:10:20.490 --> 00:10:23.400 You know, somebody would spend 20 minutes looking at like, okay, let 00:10:23.400 --> 00:10:25.980 me pull up their, this person's background and my notes about them 00:10:25.980 --> 00:10:28.960 and how we met, and then this other person's background or whatever. 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:31.690 And they would write this like very personalized, crafted email. 00:10:32.050 --> 00:10:35.200 And you know, AI cannot do that today. 00:10:35.290 --> 00:10:38.860 but using clay it can get you much closer than you would be if you just said, 00:10:38.860 --> 00:10:40.240 you know, introduce these two people. 00:10:40.280 --> 00:10:43.700 because we have the understanding of who the person is, we have the 00:10:43.700 --> 00:10:44.900 understanding of how you know them. 00:10:45.150 --> 00:10:47.580 we have the understanding of the context of relationship. 00:10:47.930 --> 00:10:50.200 and we're bringing that together in a way that, is much more 00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:52.620 limited in scope, for the ai. 00:10:52.650 --> 00:10:56.320 So from a privacy perspective, we're trying to keep it as limited as possible. 00:10:56.350 --> 00:10:57.580 And again, all of this is opt in. 00:10:57.930 --> 00:11:00.630 and a lot of what we're thinking about is, okay, what does it look like again 00:11:00.630 --> 00:11:02.910 on device, just on your computer? 00:11:03.090 --> 00:11:06.830 What does that unlock from a, from a sort of, from a 00:11:07.040 --> 00:11:08.660 productivity perspective as well? 00:11:08.660 --> 00:11:09.080 So there's. 00:11:09.460 --> 00:11:12.640 a number of different tools in the, and the space changes so quickly, 00:11:12.640 --> 00:11:13.960 which is really exciting to us. 00:11:14.020 --> 00:11:15.430 and there's like new things every week. 00:11:15.750 --> 00:11:20.180 but, we, a lot, like I said, a lot of it has been driven by our members coming to 00:11:20.180 --> 00:11:23.870 us and saying, okay, I want to, I'm using these five different tools, like what can 00:11:23.870 --> 00:11:25.460 I do with this and how do I integrate? 00:11:25.790 --> 00:11:29.420 Data from other systems into clay, and then how do I get data from Clay 00:11:29.420 --> 00:11:31.130 that I want in these other systems? 00:11:31.160 --> 00:11:33.080 and so we work with them to make that possible. 00:11:34.160 --> 00:11:35.510 Eric Karkovack: Yeah, it just seems like a very natural 00:11:35.510 --> 00:11:37.070 extension to where we're at now. 00:11:37.070 --> 00:11:41.180 We we're, we're all scattered in our, in our existence online. 00:11:41.180 --> 00:11:45.410 And now we can bring everything together and we can now use, an AI tool to 00:11:45.410 --> 00:11:49.650 kind of, Take that to the next step to where, as you said, you, you're, 00:11:49.650 --> 00:11:53.990 looking at relationships, the context of, of where, how you know someone. 00:11:54.380 --> 00:11:58.040 I thought it was interesting even you had, you know, you last saw this person 00:11:58.040 --> 00:12:02.570 like six months ago and, you know, maybe it's time to reconnect, that kind 00:12:02.570 --> 00:12:04.640 of thing, which I found fascinating. 00:12:05.210 --> 00:12:09.580 but the next step in this, of course, is your acquisition by, automatic. 00:12:10.140 --> 00:12:12.150 I, I was wondering how did that come about? 00:12:12.150 --> 00:12:14.830 I mean, is that something you guys have been looking for, for a long 00:12:14.830 --> 00:12:18.600 time as far as being acquired or, did this sort of happen out of the blue? 00:12:19.490 --> 00:12:20.090 Matthew Achariam: totally. 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:20.870 I. 00:12:20.870 --> 00:12:23.495 So the story is actually pretty interesting and pretty compelling. 00:12:23.495 --> 00:12:27.655 So I think one of the things that, opened us up to this was actually 00:12:27.895 --> 00:12:29.245 by nature of building the product. 00:12:29.245 --> 00:12:32.845 So I, I mentioned earlier, the first stage was sort of bringing your relationships 00:12:32.845 --> 00:12:35.125 in and then learning how to care for them. 00:12:35.125 --> 00:12:38.245 And then that third step was sort of like getting them out into the 00:12:38.245 --> 00:12:42.045 tools that you wanted, the ecosystems that you want, and, a little over. 00:12:42.630 --> 00:12:45.790 A year ago, and we had known obviously of Matt and we've 00:12:45.790 --> 00:12:47.470 been huge word WordPress fans. 00:12:47.470 --> 00:12:52.930 I think Zach and I both shared the story that we both uniquely at the ages of 00:12:52.930 --> 00:12:56.920 like 13 and 15 had put out, WordPress box, and that'd been our first foray. 00:12:56.920 --> 00:12:58.390 Zach's a PHP developer. 00:12:58.750 --> 00:13:02.260 I learned PHP not as good as him, but, I dabbled with it as well. 00:13:02.510 --> 00:13:06.980 and so I think it, it was, it turned out to be a very poignant arc where we 00:13:06.980 --> 00:13:10.220 had the chance last year to integrate with Gravita, which we believe is like, 00:13:10.220 --> 00:13:14.300 you know, one of the, biggest identity platforms on, on the internet and, 00:13:14.300 --> 00:13:15.920 and sort of has done it really well. 00:13:15.920 --> 00:13:17.180 And that integration went really well. 00:13:17.825 --> 00:13:20.615 We got to know Matt, we got to understand what he's building towards. 00:13:20.615 --> 00:13:24.695 And I think the thing that we uniquely bonded on was we as a 00:13:24.695 --> 00:13:26.375 company are uniquely mission driven. 00:13:26.405 --> 00:13:30.215 Like we always felt like this idea of like trying to improve 00:13:30.215 --> 00:13:34.385 or expand conscientiousness, and that was always our North Star. 00:13:34.745 --> 00:13:38.855 And the thing that we realized after working with Automatic and Matt 00:13:38.855 --> 00:13:43.705 was there was this idea that, open source was one of the most powerful, 00:13:43.965 --> 00:13:46.605 It sort of forces in our lifetime. 00:13:47.025 --> 00:13:50.775 And we had always felt that, and we'd always benefited that as developers as, 00:13:50.775 --> 00:13:53.115 as, as folks working in the ecosystem. 00:13:53.535 --> 00:13:57.015 And we realized this was how we were, could achieve our mission. 00:13:57.255 --> 00:13:59.805 And so those conversations sort of naturally evolved into like. 00:14:00.315 --> 00:14:02.925 Hey, like, why don't we team up and work on this together? 00:14:03.375 --> 00:14:05.445 And it felt, supernatural. 00:14:05.725 --> 00:14:10.285 we were doing really well and we felt like this could accelerate our mission. 00:14:10.315 --> 00:14:14.505 And so, not only that, as we got deeper into this conversations, we realized 00:14:14.505 --> 00:14:16.155 that the culture was very similar. 00:14:16.545 --> 00:14:21.245 We were building towards, Sort of this user-centric, very users, like we respect 00:14:21.245 --> 00:14:25.625 our users and we wanna build wonderful things that helps move humanity forward. 00:14:25.625 --> 00:14:29.015 And I think that's always been a core value for them. 00:14:29.225 --> 00:14:30.115 And, yeah. 00:14:30.115 --> 00:14:33.955 And so that led to us being like, let's team up and work on this together. 00:14:33.955 --> 00:14:37.805 And, we've only only been accelerating from there. 00:14:37.805 --> 00:14:38.135 Right. 00:14:38.255 --> 00:14:38.555 Zach? 00:14:38.555 --> 00:14:40.745 I, I feel like that's, that's probably the, the, 00:14:40.835 --> 00:14:41.105 Zachary Hamed: yeah. 00:14:41.105 --> 00:14:41.735 And, and it. 00:14:42.170 --> 00:14:46.910 It's really interesting to see how, all of automatics properties work across this. 00:14:46.910 --> 00:14:49.130 And I, I didn't, you know, you've mentioned some of them, Eric, but, 00:14:49.480 --> 00:14:52.480 you know, you've got Gravita, which is where we started the integration. 00:14:52.750 --> 00:14:55.120 There's beeper, which we're very excited about. 00:14:55.160 --> 00:14:59.290 and the sort of like messaging pillar and how, we integrate there. 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:02.720 there's also products like Jetpack, CRM and, and other 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:04.890 sort of, people primitives in. 00:15:05.385 --> 00:15:06.555 WordPress itself. 00:15:06.615 --> 00:15:09.855 and then also other automatic properties that are particularly interesting. 00:15:09.855 --> 00:15:15.655 So the, the through line of identity and, and networks, goes across and cuts 00:15:15.655 --> 00:15:17.485 across a lot of automatics properties. 00:15:17.485 --> 00:15:20.555 And, you know, I think it's, it's been a core focus for them, but it's 00:15:20.555 --> 00:15:23.015 also something that we're particularly excited about, about because, 00:15:23.315 --> 00:15:28.265 you know, it, the, the internet, their, their sort of position as. 00:15:28.775 --> 00:15:33.755 A, standard bearer for internet standards and, internet, sort of, APIs. 00:15:33.875 --> 00:15:37.175 You know, there's never been a more exciting time to be innovating 00:15:37.175 --> 00:15:41.325 in the space given, how many new platforms are out there, open source 00:15:41.325 --> 00:15:43.385 platforms, and standards are coming up. 00:15:43.385 --> 00:15:46.605 So, you're seeing that come out from automatic, they're part of working 00:15:46.605 --> 00:15:47.745 groups, they're part of consortia. 00:15:47.745 --> 00:15:50.955 They're, they're, you know, working with other, partners in the space. 00:15:50.955 --> 00:15:53.225 And so, that is also particularly exciting to us. 00:15:54.635 --> 00:15:56.435 Eric Karkovack: So, yeah, it seems like a, a bit of a. 00:15:56.955 --> 00:15:58.515 a good time to be doing this. 00:15:58.545 --> 00:16:01.905 with automatic, it has been acquiring some other products, like you said, beeper. 00:16:01.905 --> 00:16:05.235 I think day one was another one, that are kind of in the 00:16:05.235 --> 00:16:06.735 business of connecting people. 00:16:07.075 --> 00:16:11.845 so I, I would have to think that, that automatics, got a lot of plans for 00:16:11.845 --> 00:16:15.685 you guys with what, with, with some integrations and things like that. 00:16:16.075 --> 00:16:19.975 What, what are your long-term goals now with this and ha has that changed a 00:16:19.975 --> 00:16:22.175 little bit since, since the acquisition? 00:16:24.755 --> 00:16:27.155 Matthew Achariam: I would say it's, again, I think the way we've think, 00:16:27.365 --> 00:16:30.605 thinking about it, it's, it's the long-term mission has stayed the same. 00:16:30.605 --> 00:16:30.635 I. 00:16:30.915 --> 00:16:34.575 but now we can accomplish it a little faster through these integrations 00:16:34.575 --> 00:16:38.145 and through this idea that, you know, there's this, this company and 00:16:38.145 --> 00:16:41.115 org organization that's been doing this for 20 years and really, really 00:16:41.115 --> 00:16:42.925 understands, how to do this well. 00:16:42.925 --> 00:16:44.215 So there's a lot of synergies. 00:16:44.485 --> 00:16:48.745 I think Matt talks about this model where we all learn from each other. 00:16:48.775 --> 00:16:52.195 So we're very excited to partner up with the, the, the beeper team 00:16:52.195 --> 00:16:53.425 and work very closely with them. 00:16:53.425 --> 00:16:57.295 And then the Gravita team, and then, you know, a whole host of Eddie Eddie. 00:16:57.745 --> 00:17:01.525 Automatic product, which carries and works with identity is a 00:17:01.525 --> 00:17:02.785 potential entry point for us. 00:17:02.785 --> 00:17:06.325 And so we've identified the two that feel the most natural as the first fit. 00:17:06.475 --> 00:17:10.435 But moving forward, you know, you can see this idea that like identity becoming, 00:17:10.525 --> 00:17:13.645 and, and Matt talks a little bit about this in, in his post announcement post, 00:17:13.645 --> 00:17:17.465 where, it really is a primitive just like, anything else on the internet. 00:17:17.465 --> 00:17:22.355 And so the right person to do it or the right company to do it is, is automatic. 00:17:22.355 --> 00:17:23.895 And so, we feel. 00:17:24.810 --> 00:17:26.190 Uniquely empowered by that. 00:17:26.190 --> 00:17:29.120 And I think, the thing that we've always had in the back of our heads was 00:17:29.540 --> 00:17:34.860 we've we're very, very, dogmatic about this mission and, but we were flexible 00:17:34.860 --> 00:17:36.120 in the journey and how to get there. 00:17:36.120 --> 00:17:39.630 And this was a great opportunity for us to, to, to sort of move quickly 00:17:39.630 --> 00:17:42.030 towards that, that achieving that. 00:17:43.290 --> 00:17:46.050 Eric Karkovack: Yeah, I would think that the experience that they have in 00:17:46.050 --> 00:17:50.550 connecting people and, and, you know, getting apps out there into the public. 00:17:51.255 --> 00:17:53.535 That has to be a great benefit for you guys. 00:17:54.405 --> 00:17:54.855 Matthew Achariam: Totally. 00:17:54.975 --> 00:17:55.335 Yeah. 00:17:55.455 --> 00:18:00.925 And you know, that's, that's exactly the, the, and the, the more we explore it, 00:18:00.925 --> 00:18:04.975 the more we realize like, wow, like this is really, beneficial or mutually so. 00:18:04.975 --> 00:18:06.595 And I think that's rare. 00:18:06.595 --> 00:18:07.225 I think that's rare. 00:18:07.225 --> 00:18:10.555 And that's why we keep like reiterating that like to find such a natural 00:18:10.555 --> 00:18:15.315 fit over time with someone, from culturally valually, from, from a 00:18:15.315 --> 00:18:17.025 values perspective, is, is increasing. 00:18:17.430 --> 00:18:21.030 Incredibly rare, and we wanna honor that and work towards, you know, 00:18:21.840 --> 00:18:23.340 making, making our vision a reality. 00:18:24.900 --> 00:18:28.560 Eric Karkovack: I'd have to imagine too, like when you are in that stage 00:18:28.560 --> 00:18:33.810 of maybe being acquired, you know, we see it so often in tech that a large 00:18:33.810 --> 00:18:38.280 conglomerate will come out and, and buy a smaller firm and there's always 00:18:38.280 --> 00:18:41.400 hope for growth and things like that, and they just kind of let it stagnate. 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:41.760 Zachary Hamed: Mm-hmm. 00:18:42.180 --> 00:18:45.000 Eric Karkovack: But we've seen that time and again, and I, I, I kind of. 00:18:45.585 --> 00:18:49.095 Feel like Automatic is not one of those companies that's going to do that. 00:18:49.095 --> 00:18:54.045 They actually seem to want to continue developing and let let the, you know, 00:18:54.405 --> 00:18:58.545 whoever they acquire, kind of continue on their path, which I think as a 00:18:58.545 --> 00:19:00.375 founder would be pretty attractive. 00:19:01.755 --> 00:19:02.595 Zachary Hamed: Yeah, exactly. 00:19:02.745 --> 00:19:06.585 Yeah, I think and, and we, we tried to sort of understand 00:19:06.585 --> 00:19:09.435 we've, we've seen it ourselves as users of all of these products. 00:19:09.495 --> 00:19:11.685 you know, I was a user of day one for. 00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:14.160 Five or 10 years probably. 00:19:14.210 --> 00:19:15.800 or at least I've had it on my phone for that long. 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:17.170 same with pocket casts. 00:19:17.170 --> 00:19:19.090 You know, I think we, we've, we've used all these products 00:19:19.090 --> 00:19:23.190 ourselves and, I certainly did not feel the velocity go down. 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:26.100 and you know, I think going through the process we were like, okay, let's 00:19:26.250 --> 00:19:29.730 chat with, Teams there, chat with people who have gone through it. 00:19:29.730 --> 00:19:33.140 Like what, what is the, you know, are we, are we seeing something different? 00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:35.990 Are you, you know, somehow pushing against, against the 00:19:35.990 --> 00:19:37.010 grain on, on some of these things? 00:19:37.010 --> 00:19:37.610 And the answer is no. 00:19:37.610 --> 00:19:41.860 Like that's, because of not in spite of automatic support, and automatic's 00:19:41.860 --> 00:19:46.670 belief in, these products, remaining, largely independent, with some sort 00:19:46.670 --> 00:19:50.680 of shared, infrastructure shared sort of, you know, help between them. 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:51.950 But, for the most part, you know. 00:19:52.310 --> 00:19:55.610 Day one is doing what day one is doing and has always done and, and is 00:19:55.610 --> 00:19:59.190 the app that I loved and downloaded, that won an Apple Design award. 00:19:59.220 --> 00:20:02.660 and same for, beeper, and same for, pocket Casts. 00:20:02.660 --> 00:20:07.220 And so, you know, I think to your point, and again, when we started 00:20:07.220 --> 00:20:10.940 Clay, a lot of what we were pushing it back against is these apps that, were 00:20:10.940 --> 00:20:16.460 sort of more transient and, and did not have that same long-term focus. 00:20:16.510 --> 00:20:20.650 And you see this with, with Matt and his, his focus on, you know, decades long 00:20:20.650 --> 00:20:23.920 horizons and the, you know, a hundred years, you know, supporting WordPress 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:25.720 and WordPress blogs for a hundred years. 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:29.670 And, you know, I think there's a, there's a long-term focus and a long-term belief 00:20:29.670 --> 00:20:32.430 in, in the, the permanence of, of the web. 00:20:32.430 --> 00:20:36.960 Like, you know, making sure that this data does stay up and that like links stay 00:20:37.020 --> 00:20:39.080 up and like all of these things, do not. 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:42.700 shut down because it does actually like that rots over time. 00:20:42.750 --> 00:20:45.175 and, and we're really real strong believers in that. 00:20:45.445 --> 00:20:48.835 and all these apps are, I think, hold that to the same standard. 00:20:48.895 --> 00:20:51.235 Day one has all of your most valuable memories. 00:20:51.425 --> 00:20:54.035 you know, beeper has all of your most valuable conversations. 00:20:54.035 --> 00:20:57.105 Like you do not want those things to, disappear tomorrow. 00:20:57.165 --> 00:21:01.425 And so when you're building an app like that and, and we feel this similarly, 00:21:01.485 --> 00:21:03.405 it's a real responsibility to your. 00:21:03.705 --> 00:21:09.455 To your users, to your members, to, to hold that, to account, to be very 00:21:09.455 --> 00:21:12.155 clear and communicative about what, what is happening with that data. 00:21:12.405 --> 00:21:15.545 and whether it's privacy, security, even just like, you 00:21:15.545 --> 00:21:17.375 know, platforms change over time. 00:21:17.375 --> 00:21:20.225 Like you can't do a big migration without making sure that all 00:21:20.225 --> 00:21:21.245 the data comes along with it. 00:21:21.245 --> 00:21:21.635 And so. 00:21:22.010 --> 00:21:26.840 That is, that undergirds a lot of what I think every automatic property does. 00:21:26.930 --> 00:21:29.720 same for WordPress, same for, the independent apps. 00:21:29.750 --> 00:21:31.460 So that's really exciting to us. 00:21:32.645 --> 00:21:34.685 Eric Karkovack: Yeah, I mean, even when you think about WordPress, it's 00:21:34.685 --> 00:21:36.485 famous for backwards compatibility. 00:21:36.795 --> 00:21:38.655 you know, I, I, I'm a web designer. 00:21:38.655 --> 00:21:42.615 I've had sites that are 10, 15 years old and I can still update them 00:21:42.615 --> 00:21:45.805 and they still work, which is kind of a miracle in modern software. 00:21:46.165 --> 00:21:47.725 We don't have to overhaul things. 00:21:48.115 --> 00:21:48.325 Oh, really? 00:21:48.745 --> 00:21:49.075 Yeah. 00:21:49.165 --> 00:21:49.825 As a user. 00:21:49.875 --> 00:21:53.945 so I, I think you're kind of in the right spot if that's your, if that's 00:21:53.945 --> 00:21:57.485 your long-term goal to, to keep that data going and, and keep it alive. 00:21:57.965 --> 00:22:01.915 And it seems like, A situation for you where you're just allowed to be 00:22:01.915 --> 00:22:04.225 yourself kind of, and, and do your thing. 00:22:04.250 --> 00:22:08.195 I, I noticed, you guys are staying on, it seems like the staffing is staying, the 00:22:08.195 --> 00:22:11.975 same, which I think is always good news when, when something like this happens. 00:22:13.835 --> 00:22:14.615 Zachary Hamed: Yep, exactly. 00:22:14.615 --> 00:22:14.975 Both. 00:22:15.025 --> 00:22:15.955 and, and that's what we, I. 00:22:16.315 --> 00:22:17.485 we're also very excited about. 00:22:17.515 --> 00:22:20.475 so our entire team is, forging ahead. 00:22:20.515 --> 00:22:24.005 and it's, it's largely, business as usual, which is very, very nice to hear. 00:22:24.055 --> 00:22:28.935 both for ourselves and also for the team, for the, for our, customers who, you 00:22:28.935 --> 00:22:30.345 know, they didn't want anything to change. 00:22:30.375 --> 00:22:31.605 And largely nothing will change. 00:22:31.605 --> 00:22:33.625 If anything and everything gets better, you know, every part 00:22:33.625 --> 00:22:34.735 of the product will get better. 00:22:34.935 --> 00:22:38.535 our velocity, our ability to do new integrations and things will get better. 00:22:40.050 --> 00:22:40.860 Eric Karkovack: Well, that sounds great. 00:22:40.910 --> 00:22:45.230 so I congratulate you guys for on, on the, acquisition, but before we go, 00:22:45.230 --> 00:22:49.730 I do have to ask one question because this is a WordPress podcast, what kind 00:22:49.730 --> 00:22:53.590 of WordPress integrations are we gonna see and, will we see them next week? 00:22:53.590 --> 00:22:55.660 Or will it be a little bit longer than that? 00:22:56.350 --> 00:22:57.970 Zachary Hamed: We've, we've talked with Matt a little bit about this. 00:22:57.970 --> 00:23:00.460 I think we, we are putting together that roadmap. 00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:04.090 I think, high level, again, not promising anything but the. 00:23:04.690 --> 00:23:08.710 Matt has thought for a very long time about what the people primitive 00:23:08.710 --> 00:23:10.840 looks like, within WordPress. 00:23:10.900 --> 00:23:14.920 and there are all sorts of places as a WordPress user myself where 00:23:15.110 --> 00:23:17.810 you know, it would be nice now that you have Gutenberg and you have 00:23:17.810 --> 00:23:19.340 sort of the ability to add blocks. 00:23:19.340 --> 00:23:22.100 We've seen this with, actually our notion integration as well. 00:23:22.100 --> 00:23:25.420 Similarly, you know, they had this idea of, you know. 00:23:25.765 --> 00:23:28.915 In, in internal docs, you're mentioning other people all the time. 00:23:28.915 --> 00:23:31.235 And, you know, what does, you know, what does it look like 00:23:31.235 --> 00:23:32.525 when I app mention somebody? 00:23:32.525 --> 00:23:34.625 Or what does that like block look like? 00:23:34.655 --> 00:23:39.425 and Gutenberg and WordPress, you're messaging people all the time. 00:23:39.425 --> 00:23:40.805 You're commenting with other people. 00:23:40.805 --> 00:23:45.695 You're mention at mentioning other blogs or people that are represented by blogs. 00:23:45.695 --> 00:23:49.355 So there's a lot of people related stuff, and that's not, that's, you know. 00:23:49.450 --> 00:23:52.010 we haven't even touched on the sort of, other systems that people 00:23:52.010 --> 00:23:55.160 build on top of WordPress that also touch on people, including CRM. 00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:59.090 So there's a lot of, thinking and complexity that, and, and, sort of 00:23:59.090 --> 00:24:02.770 institutional memory that, the whole WordPress ecosystem has around that. 00:24:02.770 --> 00:24:05.050 And so we're downloading that and, and thinking through it. 00:24:05.050 --> 00:24:08.540 But, we're really excited about the, the possibilities of the, the 00:24:08.540 --> 00:24:11.540 people primitive, the relationship primitive, and how that links 00:24:11.540 --> 00:24:14.180 in through identity contact. 00:24:14.690 --> 00:24:16.100 Comments, all of that stuff, 00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:19.520 Eric Karkovack: it seems, I mean, I, I could even imagine, 00:24:19.550 --> 00:24:21.140 you know, membership sites. 00:24:21.410 --> 00:24:21.650 Yeah. 00:24:21.700 --> 00:24:22.630 WooCommerce sites. 00:24:22.630 --> 00:24:25.140 I mean that exactly would be an interesting, integration with 00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:28.140 customer, relationship data, exactly. 00:24:28.170 --> 00:24:29.220 All those types of things. 00:24:29.220 --> 00:24:31.980 It just seems like it, it could, really skyrocket from there. 00:24:31.980 --> 00:24:35.330 And then when you're using tying AI in with it, you know, 00:24:35.630 --> 00:24:39.670 I could be using WooCommerce and I have an order and, maybe I. 00:24:40.390 --> 00:24:45.280 Ask AI to send a an email to this customer and thank them for what they purchased. 00:24:45.280 --> 00:24:48.400 And, hey, if you need this, why don't we do an upsell? 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:51.800 that type of thing just seems like it, it's a natural fit. 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:54.260 Well, oh, sorry, just one other 00:24:54.530 --> 00:24:55.460 Zachary Hamed: that before No, yeah. 00:24:55.460 --> 00:24:56.870 I just, we'd love that. 00:24:56.870 --> 00:25:00.590 And, and I think the, the idea that your customers and your 00:25:00.590 --> 00:25:04.860 audience and your, your, your blog audience, your, your mailing list 00:25:04.860 --> 00:25:06.360 audience, like all of those things. 00:25:06.735 --> 00:25:09.835 We've seen, we've had our customers talk to us about like, Hey, I 00:25:09.835 --> 00:25:12.295 want to, I wanna merge these, these things, things together. 00:25:12.295 --> 00:25:16.075 And I wanna know that somebody who was my, you know, they were subscribed 00:25:16.075 --> 00:25:19.325 to my newsletter for a while, and then they placed an order and, they 00:25:19.325 --> 00:25:22.175 also followed me on social media and they subscribed to my blog. 00:25:22.175 --> 00:25:26.465 Like all of those things, I think, creators and, businesses really 00:25:26.465 --> 00:25:27.635 think about it holistically. 00:25:27.685 --> 00:25:30.985 but a lot of modern software views it, you know, what is the difference really 00:25:30.985 --> 00:25:32.335 between a subscriber and a customer? 00:25:32.335 --> 00:25:33.355 Like at the end of the day. 00:25:33.685 --> 00:25:36.625 You have an email address and, and that thing can, can work across 00:25:36.625 --> 00:25:38.185 all of all of those properties. 00:25:38.185 --> 00:25:39.825 So we're very excited, by that. 00:25:39.875 --> 00:25:43.745 and, and by the, you know, I think WordPress operates in all of 00:25:43.745 --> 00:25:46.265 those different verticals and, and there's very few players that do. 00:25:46.315 --> 00:25:48.295 so that's one that we're also excited about. 00:25:49.885 --> 00:25:52.455 Eric Karkovack: Yeah, it would seem, like there, there's a lot of potential 00:25:52.455 --> 00:25:57.245 here to, integrate clay into all sorts of automatic products and maybe even, 00:25:57.305 --> 00:25:59.255 you know, more third parties, I'm sure. 00:25:59.795 --> 00:26:02.405 but guys, I want to thank you again for, for coming here today. 00:26:02.715 --> 00:26:06.345 I appreciate your time and, and again, congratulations on the acquisition. 00:26:06.345 --> 00:26:09.095 I hope everything goes, the way you're, you're hoping. 00:26:09.095 --> 00:26:10.825 And, thanks for being on the WP Minute. 00:26:12.010 --> 00:26:12.670 Matthew Achariam: Thank you, Eric. 00:26:12.670 --> 00:26:14.050 It was delightful to be here. 00:26:14.100 --> 00:26:18.300 it's rare that we get the time and space to reflect on our work and for 00:26:18.300 --> 00:26:22.360 someone to so thoughtfully ask a bunch of really, really, poignant questions. 00:26:22.360 --> 00:26:25.920 So thank you as well for having us and we really appreciate it and 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:26.760 Eric Karkovack: happy to do it again. 00:26:27.540 --> 00:26:28.110 Awesome, awesome. 00:26:28.110 --> 00:26:31.350 Maybe we'll, we'll catch up in, in a year or two and see what, 00:26:31.410 --> 00:26:32.580 what else we've got going on. 00:26:32.580 --> 00:26:36.060 I can only imagine where you guys are going to be in that, in that bit of time. 00:26:36.060 --> 00:26:37.380 Would love that. 00:26:38.535 --> 00:26:40.355 All right, well thank you again and good luck.