Christian Napier (00:13) Well, hello, everybody, and welcome to August. It's the first week of August here in 2026. Super excited to have you all join us on Teamwork a Better Way. We have been doing this podcast now for, what did you say, Spencer, 190 episodes? Spencer Horn (00:28) Yeah, Friday when I missed you because of your high import, you got pulled away for. Christian Napier (00:34) I got yanked out. I apologize. High level, high level conversations. So this is 191. (00:40) So 191 and so excited to be with you, Spencer. Spencer, how you doing? Spencer Horn (00:46) I am fantastic. I am excited to be with you. Glad you're back. It's always better when you're here. Christian Napier (00:51) Yeah, well, you guess what? I'm just here for a little bit because after this thing, I'm I'm headed to your old neck of the woods, Las Vegas, for an AI conference, and I'll be speaking there. So super excited about that. Lucky people. (01:06) All right, Spencer, anything else we need to catch up on before we hand over to you? No, we just need to schedule some more guests. We just need to schedule some mole soon. We do. (01:16) I'm dying for some mole. I need some good mole. OK, Spencer, do the honors. Introduce our guests, plural. Spencer Horn (01:24) We have two guests, yes, today. So first, let me introduce to you Brad Newberry, I don't know if we call him Captain, I don't know if that's within our purview to do that, but he is the President and CEO of the National Medical Education and Training Center and is the author of The Saved Effect, True Stories of Lives Reclaimed by People Who Were Willing to Act and Their First Responder Advantage. With over 40 years of experience in firefighting and pre-hospital medicine, Brad has dedicated his life to helping others be ready and willing to act when it matters most. (02:06) And as a fire captain, a paramedic, an educator, Brad has built this training company into one of the nation's, we call it NMETC, one of the nation's premier institutions for EMS education. He founded it in 2010 and the organization has trained thousands of students around the world and empowering the next generation of lifesavers through skill, awareness, and preparedness. And speaking of the next generation, I mean, there's more to this profile, but we gotta talk about the next generation Newberry. And that's Kira, who is also a first responder. (02:48) That's amazing. So Kira Newberry is an NREMT, is an emergency medical professional, and an emerging author, and they're working on this book together. It's finished, isn't it? It is, yes. (03:03) The next book that they've authored together, The Saved Effect, true stories of lives reclaimed by people who are willing to act. And with a background in psychology and a passion for storytelling, Kira combines clinical training with a deep appreciation for the human side of emergency medicine. She's a nationally registered emergency medical technician and Kira has worked alongside the Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center Disaster Medicine Fellowship and contributed projects focused on public awareness, emergency preparedness, and health care education. And she speaks on health care, CPR readiness, mental health, encouraging individuals and communities to become trained, prepared, and willing to act. (03:46) Welcome, Brad and Kira. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, let me put you on the screen. (03:52) I'm trying to manage everything at the same time. You know, we're so excited to have you. And I know that the two of you, when you're talking, our guests will be able to see you. But we love it when we have family on. (04:08) I mean, it's just so awesome. And you know, Christian, this is an interesting twist from a first responder. You know, we talk a lot about teamwork, and leadership really works all across different industries and different verticals. And so we're so excited to have a new perspective today. (04:26) You know, Brad, you said that your life's work is helping people to be ready and willing to act. So those are two different things, aren't they? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. (04:37) Those are definitely different. Where does that gap come from, and how do you get them to close that gap? That's the question I want to start with. Brad Newbury (04:45) I think the biggest way that you get people to understand first what they're willing to do and then what they're capable of doing. And it's really through education, training, and use of their knowledge, skill, and ability. Spencer Horn (05:04) So is it just education? Because in my mind, there's a problem with that, Brad. Because there's a lot of people who have education or knowledge, but they're still not willing to act. I mean, what I want to know is what creates that, what closes that gap between that education, the knowledge, and actually taking action. Brad Newbury (05:28) I think it's the stories. It's the individuals. It's why, you know, why do we do what we do every single day? It's because of people. (05:35) And we're in the people business. And so we can see the true impact of what our actions do on a daily basis. And that's what really this book is all about, is about the moment when someone stepped forward, and then what came after. And I think that's critically important for your audience to understand. (05:52) When you're thinking about whether someone steps forward or not steps forward, if we can connect them to stories and make them deeply personal, they will resonate with individuals. And then they have to see themselves as that person that will act in the future. Spencer Horn (06:08) Okay, so now you're onto something because if they can see themselves, then the belief system begins to shift. So to me, I mean, it all comes down to belief. Am I somebody that's willing to make a difference? Do I have the capability? (06:22) Can I do something? Krishna, I just have one question for you before I throw them to you. Kira, you grew up watching your dad run toward emergencies, yes? Christian Napier (06:35) Yes. Spencer Horn (06:35) So when did you know that this was your path to, and what did you learn about leadership before you ever put on that uniform? Kiera Newbury (06:44) So my journey really started in the classroom when I was two years old. And it evolved to my parents opening their own EMT and paramedic school when I was eight years old. And I had gone to them after spending so many years and so much time within these classrooms. with these students and instructors who had really taken me under their wing. (07:05) And EMS is really a community and a family. So I was like a little sister to them. And I didn't want to be viewed that way anymore. And so when I was eight years old, I went to my parents and I said, I want to become an EMT. (07:17) And they said, well, listen, Massachusetts won't let an eight-year-old become an EMT. But once you turn 18, we'll send you through the program. And I said, no, that's not going to work, because I want to become an EMT now. And they said, OK, well, that's unfortunate. (07:34) So I didn't believe them. And I went online, and I googled it. And it turned out they were right. Massachusetts wouldn't allow an eight-year-old to become an EMT. (07:43) But I did find that there was no minimum age requirement to become certified in CPR. And so at eight years old, I knew I couldn't go and admit that I was wrong and my parents were right. And I said, well, I found this. I want to become certified in CPR. (07:58) And they said, OK, great. We'll send you through the program. And I became certified. And then when I was 18, I realized that I wanted to put my skills to use. (08:09) So I became an EMT. I started working in a level one trauma center in Boston. And I gained so much education and experience. I gained more in that time within having hands-on clinical care experience than I did spending those 18 years in the classroom. (08:27) But it really was something within me that I saw my entire family take on health care and really not just as a profession but as a passion. And I knew I wanted to be the person to step forward and I wanted to also not be the one to step back in that scenario. Christian Napier (08:47) I love the story, Kira, how when you were very young, you wanted to do this and you saw your parents teaching about this. And that actually comes back to a question for you, Brad, which is, you know, oftentimes people who are operational stay operational. What was it that motivated or inspired you to say, you know what, I actually want to create this national training center and share the knowledge and skills and experience that I have, rather than just continuing to be an operator or a leader. Brad Newbury (09:29) So first, I'm both. So I continue to serve as a captain paramedic with my department just south of Boston. And so for the folks that are listening, my role is as an incident commander right now. So I'm in a command vehicle. (09:43) But getting back to the origin story of why I started in education is because I was precepting paramedic students in the field. And what I was seeing was that there was a gap in their education. In the mid-90s, there was a competition, honestly, between EMS schools of who could just get the most amount of students in, and quality of education seemed to be lacking. I made a decision right then and there that I had all these experiences in the field, all this education, and I wanted to get back to our profession. (10:14) But I also was worried about the future of EMS education, the way it was being done at the time. And since then, we've had accreditation, and now we have national accreditation that's required. So, I'm not as concerned as I was in the past. However, that put me on that journey to really dive in and figure out what was a better pathway for our future of EMS. (10:37) Because I also knew that all of us, including you yourselves, I'm not sure where exactly you guys live, but many folks around the country, I mean, we have students that are from Alaska to to Maine, to Florida, to Texas, all over the United States, and including foreign students as well. And we're all true stakeholders in the education that we deliver here at our school, because former graduates of our program have taken care of both my parents, my in-laws, my son, my sister-in-law. And so patient care mattered to me. (11:07) And it mattered because I saw the results of bad medicine. And I wanted to ensure that if I was going to have a say in that, that we were going to make sure that we delivered excellent education for those future patients. Spencer Horn (11:21) You know, we have live listeners, which we love. So I'm just going to throw up one of the comments we have from Edwin. It says, you know, he's looking forward to sharing how high-performing teams turn trust and clarity into action. And so that kind of leads me to ask, you know, in your book, the saved effect, you build on all these live stories that you've been mentioning about people who've acted. (11:49) But from these, you know, the lessons from the front line, I guess what I'd like to know is what's one advantage that first responders have that maybe can be transferred into any team as they're trying to build a team? I mean, what can we learn from from the challenges of the first responder world? Brad Newbury (12:14) I think the biggest one is unity of mission and unity of purpose, right? We are mission-driven individuals. We have a purpose. And if you can instill that into the team, then they will rise up for whatever the cause that is. (12:27) So if you can bring unity to the mission, I think that in itself would really help teams. And I've been building teams both in the fire service and here at our school. I was a young engine company officer where I had to build a team, motivate a team, lead that team, and really lead that team in the battle. So no one was shooting at us, but I can tell you right now, one of the harshest environments that you could be in is crawling inside of a fire. (12:54) And there had to be that unity of mission. And that truly came through a unity of service to other people, too. Spencer Horn (13:02) I mean, I love that. I mean, that purpose and mission is really important. I'm really curious, how did you keep that focus on mission when you weren't running into fire, buildings that were on fire? How did you do that when there wasn't that pressure where you were actively serving people? (13:20) I mean, it seems like there's a lot of activities that have to be done that are seemingly unconnected to maybe serving the community at the end. But how did you keep that mission focus? Brad Newbury (13:33) I think if we keep our North Star as Mrs. Smith, and this is something that Chief Allen Brunacini has been taught for years, he talked about Mrs. Smith, right? Mrs. Smith is that person who's in every town in USA, or really could be your customer. Whoever that individual is, if that person becomes your North Star, and that everything you do every single day is to serve Mrs. Smith, in a way that, you know, whether it be she called, and I can tell you, I've had all kinds of different calls for service, from the, you know, the bunny that's stuck in the, behind the dishwasher, to the bat in the house, to the, to all kinds of other emergencies that wouldn't, in a sense, many people wouldn't think they'd rise up to an emergency, but usually people, we're problem solvers in the fire (14:19) service and in EMS too, as well. And so when people are either having the worst day of their life or they have a problem they can't solve, they call us. So when you think about whether it be in your organization or you're leading a team, think about who is your North Star? Who are you doing this every single day for? (14:38) And for us, it's that person in the community that's not just paying our salary. Because to be completely honest, many of us in the fire service would do it for free. You know, they don't pay me to go to fires, to be completely honest. They pay me to train, to manage other folks during that, to go to other emergencies. (14:53) We would all go to fires for free. And I'm not saying we wish bad things on people. We just hope that we're there when they happen. So if you were to talk to other firefighters and other teams in the way that you build those teams, I think if you ask that question is, who is their North Star? (15:12) And who are they serving every single day? And that's what keeps us going. Christian Napier (15:29) All right. So I love what you just said there about thinking about who is your North Star. So I want to come to you, Kira, and ask that question. As you were growing up and as you serve today, who is that North Star for you? (15:45) I imagine growing up in this kind of environment, and I could be completely wrong, so I'm making an assumption here. you grew up around a lot of first responder logic, right? It's like, I'm in this environment, I'm in this world. And so I, you have this kind of first responder mindset kind of ingrained in you, but I'm curious, you know, just here from your perspective, your answer to your father's question, you know, who's the North Star for you? Kiera Newbury (16:23) I think growing up, I've always been taught that we have to serve our community. But my North Star is the person who's having the worst day of their life. And that may not be somebody else's worst day of their life. It may just be that person's. (16:38) But when they're calling 911 or they're showing up to the emergency room, they're not having a good day. And I think that's something that we forget about. as healthcare workers, as EMS, and we can take it personally when we're not treated as somebody who would be having a good day would treat us. And I think that's really important to remember that we serve our communities and we serve the people who need us most and their reactions or the way that they perceive us or we perceive them may not be the way we want it. (17:14) But that doesn't matter, and we still need to act with empathy and proficiency. Spencer Horn (17:22) I'm very ignorant about the EMS life and firefighting life, although I have some friends that are in the service, and I watch Chicago Fire. But obviously, that's not real life, right, Christian? So my question is, is there ever, so this is kind of yes or no, and depending on what your answer will lead to the next answer. Do you ever have to work with strangers? (17:50) So for example, maybe you have multiple units that arrive on site, and they're different teams, right? So you've got different houses arriving, or in the EMS, do you ever have to work with a stranger on certain days? Has that ever happened to either of you? Absolutely, yes. (18:08) OK, so then that leads to the question, how do you, with these disparate teams or even strangers, what can we learn as teams that are coming together that are maybe different, have different leadership? How do we come together? What can we learn about coming together very quickly for a common purpose to solve a problem that maybe you have figured out in this emergency responder world? Brad Newbury (18:37) So I can talk really intimately about this, particularly as an incident commander. And when we show up, we have a finite amount of resources. And if the incident has overwhelmed our resources in the first couple of minutes, then I'm going to have to call for help from other communities. Now, I may know some of those folks in the other communities, because we may be trained with them. (18:57) But the more and more complex the event is, the further and further away from our community we're going to have to go and get help. And so that brings then to your question is, how do you now bring that unity of mission to every team that shows up? And I think that particularly both in FIRE and EMS, we have that at our core. So it's part of who we are. (19:23) So we're not bringing in these like an unknown, in a sense, an unknown unknown, meaning like we're not bringing in an unknown team that doesn't understand our mission. and particularly around some critical emergency, whether it be a natural disaster or a plant, you know, a man-made disaster, whether it be a fire, or really just a simple mass casualty incident. I'll give you an example. If we have a tour bus roll over on the highway, and this is, I'll give you a better example. (19:49) We had a train crash in the community right next to ours. They had over 200 patients. And so we had to call for resources from not only all over Massachusetts, but even outside of our state to help manage that. So we're bringing in teams of individuals for a common purpose. (20:07) And when they arrive, that's when we have to make sure that they're motivated, that they understand the mission. And I think those are key factors when you're talking about bringing strangers into a team is to, one, I hope that their core values align with ours when they show up. And we don't have a lot of time to really dig into that, like we would say here at our EMS school. And we can't vet that right away. (20:33) We hope their organization had vetted that. But as long as we can bring them together for one clear mission and one clear unity of that mission and bring their focus to whatever the task is, then But then I would say that's where we're the strongest. One area, though, that as leaders, we have to identify that if those individuals don't rise to the level of expectation, that we need to replace them immediately. And that can be really hard, particularly around some of the challenges that we might face in the moment. (21:06) But I am no stranger to stopping some type of incident and changing that team out if they're not being successful. And, and what I mean by that is the mission comes first. It's like Peter Blayden's book, Mission Men and Me, right? The mission has to come first because lives are on the line. (21:25) Now, one of my favorite sayings in business though, is there's truly no HR emergency. So like in, in, you know, high reliable organizations where, you know, there, there is potentially a life on the line, then you know, you, you don't have as much discretionary time to think through some of these challenges you might with a team. But I would say if you're in a business, when you start to see the traits and characteristics of someone that doesn't fit your organization, doesn't meet the mission, and is not focused truly on serving whoever that North Star is, then you have to pivot quickly. Kiera Newbury (22:03) And from the hospital perspective, too, we have a very high turnover rate, especially within all of our professions in EMS and in the hospital, too. But there's also something very prevalent called traveling. And so for a lot of hospitals, they're bringing in people who may have not been trained as extensively as the workers who have already been there by hospitals or other institutions. And we have to work with strangers constantly. (22:32) And so the only thing that really can get us by with that is trust. There are a set of standards within our profession and within our institutions that we have to abide by. And we just have to blindly trust that these strangers will also be doing the same. And I think there's a way to go about when people aren't following these standards, but to work with strangers and work with strangers well, you just have to put your blind trust into everybody. Christian Napier (23:10) So that actually, this is super interesting for me and I appreciate you bringing it up because I'd like to get your thoughts on a couple of dimensions of what you're talking about here. So number one, is clearly establishing who's in charge. You know, when you've got a lot of different people coming together in large-scale incidents, you know, what is the process that people go through? Or do they already, you know, they already know if it happens in a certain area, then this is the person's in charge. (23:38) You know, who, who establishes who's in charge? And then the second part of that is, you How do you go about resolving disagreements? You know, okay, well, I think we should do this thing first, and then we do that thing. And you might think, well, no, we should do thing B before thing A. (23:58) So, you know, what is the process in these very high stress situations to identify who's in charge, and then how you resolve concerns or conflicts And how can some of those lessons translate to business? Because I think a lot of the problems that we have in other organizations are sometimes it's not clear who is actually in charge. And sometimes the pathways to resolve conflicts are not clear cut either. And so I'm just curious to get your thoughts on those items. Brad Newbury (24:41) I think really what we're talking about is crisis leadership. And so there's a couple of different things to unpack from what you asked. First and foremost, usually there's a positional leader, meaning that a statutory leader, particularly in a response. So let's say it's a fire. (24:57) Then whoever the highest ranking officer on scene would be the designated person in charge. And not only in charge, but also responsible. And there's two different things there, both from a legal standpoint. So that's number one. (25:14) The more complex the response is, and especially if you have a multi-agency response, say, let's say, I'll use the Boston Marathon bombing for an example. There are times when one agency is the lead agency, and really in this arc of time of this disaster, right? Because you had a bombing, you had over 200 people injured, and so You also have to think about a unity of command because you had multiple agencies. You had the fire department, the EMS, the FBI, local Boston police. (25:46) So you had a number of agencies all coming together. So in that respect, it's who has the jurisdictional responsibility depending on the type of incident and at what point you're in the incident, right? Because in the very beginning, from a statutory standpoint, it's probably the fire department and EMS taking care of the victims and putting antifires out. then that command changes into an investigation. (26:11) And now maybe it's local Boston PD or it's the FBI. So then what happens is we bring all the stakeholders into a command post. And it's really a unity of command. Everyone comes together. (26:25) And just like in business organizations, there has to be one leader, right? And let's say you're at a point where the FBI is leading the investigation, but you're still at the table as part of that response. And now, all of a sudden, there is some disagreement within the organization of the unity of command, meaning like all the agencies, they can't come together. Well, one leader has to emerge, and that one leader has to make a decision. (26:52) And this happened to me several times in my career, particularly on the fire ground, where I might, as the incident commander, I'm standing outside. And I always say, sometimes the people at the tip of the spear have the best view. But that's not always the case, because sometimes the smoke is skewing what they're seeing. And so what I mean by that is, you might get information that's coming at you. (27:16) And that's another part of being the leader, is you're taking in all the information to make great decisions. And you cannot be omnipotent in this, meaning that if someone else sees something that you don't see, you can't be, in a sense, you can't not take that information in. But there are times, though, when you're taking information in very, very quickly, and you have to make decisions. And I've had it happen to me. (27:42) I have a company officer, a junior officer will come to me in the moment, and I'll say, I need you to go do this, and they'll say, you know, hey, Kappa, did you see, can you, do you see this? And I'll say, yes, I've already considered it. Go do it now. And then that, that's it. (27:56) There's no more, it's not open for discussion. Because particularly in those high stress environments, the person in charge has to be in charge. Now, that doesn't mean that I can't be flexible and say, hey, you know what? I didn't see that. (28:11) And there's where the reality from a crisis leadership really comes from is that you might have a different perspective on the problem than I do. And I want you to have a voice in that. But there are times, though, that leaders have to make decisions so that we can move forward. And if you can't do that, particularly in an emergency scene, you can't move forward either. (28:32) Let me give you a different perspective on that. If I'm sitting at the table here at our school, and I'll try to be the last person in the room. We have to make a decision about something. And so I'll let the conversation happen between our top level leaders. (28:50) And at the end of the day, then I have to make a decision as a CEO. How are we going to move forward? And even though I make that decision, I remember I had this one guy who came to me, and he's like, well, I don't agree with your decision. You didn't hear me. (29:05) And I was like, no, I actually heard you. I heard everything you said. And despite that, I have a different view than you do. And I have a 10,000-foot view. (29:15) I have to consider the organization. I have to consider the decisions. I said, you have a narrow view of what's going on. I heard what you had to say. (29:22) But I have to make a decision. And the decision's final. Now I need you to be on board with that decision. And there can't be dissension after that. Spencer Horn (29:32) And you know, I 100% agree with that. I think there is a time, you know, that's a little bit different than how it works, you know, in the executive boardroom, if you will. That's the place for the dissent to happen. But once the leader says, okay, I've heard everybody's voices and this is what we're going to do, whether or not you you were for that decision or not, that's the time to get on board. (29:54) And that is such an, you have to leave that room in alignment. Because if you do say, oh man, chief, you know, captain doesn't know what he's talking about, then that undermines that mission. unity focus that you were talking about. And that's, it doesn't matter if that's a first responder or, you know, the local library. (30:12) I don't know if they have executives in the library, but I'm just, you know, I have a question for you both. So you're both two different generations, right? What does each generation get right about teamwork and what does each generation maybe miss? Who's going to go first? Kiera Newbury (30:31) I can go first. Spencer Horn (30:32) Yeah, go ahead. Kiera Newbury (30:33) I think one thing that Gen Z really gets right is their drive and their need for change and to develop their perspectives and their actions with the times and technology and resources that they have available to them. However, I do think that sometimes there can be some pushback from older generations and they don't take that into consideration. And I think that sometimes Gen Z also doesn't consider that older generations have experiences and they have these moments where they now have different knowledge that maybe we had just because of the limited time that we've been within our niche, then we kind of cast them aside and say, well, you don't understand because, you know, you're XYZ or you're old and you don't understand the technology that I'm trying to put forth. (31:29) And I think that we just cast some people aside because of their age and not actually because we want to listen to them and hear their experiences or their viewpoints. And instead of coming together and creating something that integrates both perspectives, they may just say my way or no way. Spencer Horn (31:48) Okay, now don't stop there. Great assessment. So now you need to assess, what is he, Gen X, like Christian? Yes. (31:55) What are you, Brad? Okay, Akira, so what about the strengths and weaknesses of Dad over there? Kiera Newbury (32:02) Oh, okay. Well, I mean, there's a flip side to everything, really. I do think that from the podcasts and the interviews and just talking to him in general, I think that there's some times where he has... I'll give you an example. (32:18) He told a story about how he had a firefighter who he had gone to and this firefighter didn't know how to use a traditional mop. And so, which is funny to many people, but to my generation, I said, well, dad, if I were to give you this brand new Swiffer that they just released, and it's all electric, and you don't have to plug it in, would you know how to use that? And he said, well, no, I wouldn't. And I said, OK, well, maybe you know how to use a traditional mop, but I know how to use the brand new Swiffer. (32:50) Whose job's that? Spencer Horn (32:51) I want you to say that like a real Bostonian, Swiffa. Come on. Swiffa. Swiffa. Kiera Newbury (32:59) So I think that there is the flip side of that where maybe we are so used to our technology now that The older generation Gen X or boomers or can rely so heavily on what's worked for so long that they put other people down because I'm not saying that you were putting people down, but they can put people down because they don't use or utilize the traditional methods or ways of doing things, but not have that perspective that maybe there's another way that we've been doing it all along. Spencer Horn (33:38) All right, Brad, your turn. Really, your daughter, you got a lot to live up to there. Brad Newbury (33:43) Yes. I think first and foremost, one of the things that our generation gets wrong with the Gen Z's generation is, is that we make some really negative assumptions about these, these individual, I call them kids because they're kids to me, but these individuals- We're getting to be adults now. Kiera Newbury (33:59) I know. Brad Newbury (34:00) Yeah, definitely true. And, and it's even like, you know, like I think Simon Sinek had a talk on millennials and Gen Z's and it was fairly negative. I think we get that wrong. I have seen both here at our school, but also in the fire service, that this generation does get it. (34:20) And if you're patient with them and you ask the right questions or you give them that mission in the very beginning and bring them onto the team and do that well and onboard them well, then they're incredibly motivated by things that we were not motivated by. when we were young, meaning that they're motivated by clarity of the mission. They're motivated by how they're treated when they come into the organization. I can tell you, when I first joined the fire service, there was no warm and fuzzy hugs. (34:52) I'm a hugger, right? And the way that we onboard folks now compared to when we did when I first got in the fire service is completely different. Because really, we want to embrace their strengths and weaknesses. And I think one big strength is that they want to be part of that mission. (35:10) And I can tell you, we have training millennials and Gen Zers now. And there's so much negativity around those generations. And I can tell you, we, in the future, whether it be our companies or whether it be in the fire service or EMS, we're going to be OK. I really have seen some amazing young men and women that have joined, and they are exceptional. (35:37) Kira here, but I also think one of the things that Gen Zers get wrong about us is that they're not always open to our point of view. They see the world more narrowly from a digital version, whether it be on TikTok or Instagram, or they're seeing a narrower view. Like Kira said, that her generation doesn't always appreciate the experiences that we have throughout our lives. And we're talking about lived experiences. (36:06) And those lived experiences are not something that they can watch on a video. And because also, you know, experience is visceral, meaning that you've been through something and it connected viscerally with you, and both in the neural connection wise, but also in your gut too. And there are some times that our knowledge, skill, ability, and experiences are way, you know, more vast than the Gen Z-er could even imagine. Because we're in a different world. (36:34) I'll give you an example. When I grew up in the fire service, in 40 years, I've been to lots of fires. You know, in spec, particularly when I joined the fire service in the 80s, we had fires all the time. In the 80s and 90s, and even into the early 2000s, we're starting to see the amount of fires going down, so the fire duty has gone down. (36:51) However, that doesn't mean that the fires are going away. The fires that we see today burn hotter, faster, you know, they're growing quicker. We have, you know, percentage-wise, we have, you know, still over 3,000 civilian deaths every year. So it's not like we're not, we don't have, still have a challenge and a problem. (37:10) But what I see in the difference between our generations is that we have to be able to have the emotional maturity on both sides to invite that other side over to our perspective. And we also have to have the emotional intelligence as individuals to be able to accept that and walk onto the other side to see their perspective. I think that's what's missing on both generations. Spencer Horn (37:51) Hey, I just want to summarize, because a lot of leaders are working with Gen Z today, and I heard three things that I talk about. Number one, they want fairness, I heard. They want to know that you care about them, that they matter, that you invest in them. And they want to know that they're making a difference. (38:08) And if they can do that as part of the mission, that they're having an impact on that mission, then they're motivated, is what I heard. Is that pretty close? Excellent. Christian Napier (38:18) Great answers, Christian. Yeah, I love this. I want to come back to something that you mentioned earlier, because I think it ties into what you just talked about, and that is the power of storytelling. You use the word visceral, and sometimes, you know, visceral means I experience it firsthand, but sometimes You can't experience everything firsthand right away, so to teach a lesson or to get a principle kind of embedded into the psyche of individuals, stories can be very, very powerful. (38:56) Perhaps one of the most famous first responder stories of all time, not to get religious here, is the parable of the Good Samaritan. What kind of impact has that story had for 2,000 years on people? We still remember that story today. And so I am curious to hear from both of you. (39:15) how impactful storytelling is, sharing experiences that you had in the field, and also how do you overcome some of the challenges related to that? Because sometimes if we're not careful, you know, the Denzi people can just say, oh, well, there goes Gramps again, just telling stories about the good old days, you know? So I'm curious how you can leverage- Karen might've said that a few times. Right? (39:48) How you leverage storytelling for real learning and for real impact. Spencer Horn (39:54) Or that I've heard that one before, Dad. Yeah. Kiera Newbury (39:58) Well, a lot of these stories in this book are ones that I've heard many, many times. I could have written them myself. But to answer your question, one of the things that we really wanted to take into consideration when writing these was the actuality, the reality of the situation. And we wanted to put that into words, which is really difficult to do, and to make somebody feel the emotions that the survivor, their families, or the person who was responding to the call, to make them feel what they were feeling in that moment is very difficult. (40:34) But we wanted to do it with such a precise and sensitive touch to these topics, because that's exactly what they are. They are sensitive. You had written stories that you were a part of, but we structured it in a way where I had written stories that I wasn't directly involved in. And to have the opportunity to tell other people's stories is one that you have to really take with and be very, you know, wear some white gloves when you do it. (41:07) I studied writing in college and it was something that I was able to learn and get tools for. So when my dad had approached me with this project, he came to me and told me what he wanted to write it about. And I had turned him down five times. And I said, I don't think that's where I'm supposed to be after college because I graduated last year. (41:31) And he said, OK, on the fifth time, he said, please, you don't have to tell me yes or no right now. Just go back and sit with it. And so I went back and I had really, really sat with the fact that this book could change lives, but he really wanted me a part of it to help him with his writing and to help the emotionality of things. He had been sitting in on my oral presentations and he knew that he wanted me to be a part of it, which was really great. (41:59) So I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about how you got there. Brad Newbury (42:02) Yeah, because first and foremost, I had these stories. And I've been telling these stories, particularly around the book. And I'm going to dive into your question, too. I think it's important. (42:11) So I've been telling these stories at the end of our paramedic program, where I would teach into our paramedic students, what does it mean to save a life? And a lot of these stories connect the why of why we do what we do in our profession. However, you know, I've been writing academically for a long time. So, you know, through my undergrad, through graduate school, through the work I do with our Disaster Medicine Fellowship and all the papers that we write and the research that we do. (42:41) But I had never written these kind of inspirational stories in a way where it would capture a reader from an emotional standpoint. I can tell stories and because I've had a lot of that practice over the years, but I wanted to be able to dial that in. And I think that, you know, your question really is, is how we train paramedic students and how we train EMS students and also how we train firefighters too as well. And, and, you know, first we, we connect them to the why, and that could be through a story. (43:13) And– and then if we can create a simulation, and that's what we do here in our school. So we create patient simulations. I was just with a group out– outside of the room here and they were going through some pediatric scenarios. And– and if you can connect the story behind the why, why are they doing what they're doing today, bring an experience. (43:31) Because experiences, again, you know, we can bring them through an experience in a simulator We can't give them the full emotional pieces of that simulation that would act just like if it was real life. However, we're also creating some memories and also some muscle memories so that when they do have to act, They can go back and say, oh, I remember when Brad told that story about this situation, and I remember my training. And they're not cognitively thinking about that, but they're now just acting. So I think that there is a big piece of that connecting not only the inspirational story through a simulation and then maybe a real world experience, because I also say that experiences without understanding is just interesting. (44:17) And what I mean by that is you have to go back and reflect on that experience. You have to understand what you just went through. And we as leaders have to be able to provide a venue for that individual to share that, to go back. And I have a really, I don't know how much time we have left on this, but I have a really great story of a young man who, in the moment, didn't have a memory until we had to connect it for him. (44:43) And so I can unpack that if you want. Go, what do you think? Go ahead. So, you know, and particularly in high stress environments. (44:54) So Joey's a brand new firefighter, young firefighter. He's still on probation and we get a house fire, reported a teenager trapped on the second floor. And as Joey's making entry into the first floor with a hose line and the hose team, and he goes downstairs and there was, it was fire both in the basement and on the first floor. And then after the fire was over, I was doing a post-incident analysis. (45:18) And we do that on all of our major incidents, where we go back and we talk about it. And one of the things I've used as a tool for years is I wear a helmet cam. So that when I wear the helmet cam, I can go back, and not only just for me, but also for the other folks that were even not there, but also for the folks that are there, we can go back and look exactly what happened. Because sometimes the memory in the moment is not clear, particularly when it's a high stress environment. (45:45) And Joey, and because sometimes it takes time to understand the experience. And what I mean by that is, so after it was all over, we're back at the firehouse, and I said to him, hey, Joey, what were the fire conditions at the top of the stairs on the second floor? And he said, I didn't go to the top of the stairs. I was like, you didn't go to the top of the stairs? (46:02) And he's like, no, no, no. I said, you didn't bring the hose line to the top of the stairs on the second floor. And he's like, no, I didn't do that. I said, well, hold on. (46:10) So I went back to the video, because I was actually peeking up the stairs from the outside. And I could see his coat. And I could see, of course, I knew he was up there. And I said, well, isn't that your name on your jacket up there? (46:23) And he paused. And he was like, he had no memory of that. And it wasn't until the next day where the first thing in the morning, we're having coffee at the kitchen table, and he comes out, and he's like, Kappa, you won't believe it. I remember everything now. (46:36) I remember being up there. And see, his brain needed time to process that experience. And this is what I mean. So the stories that we connect through that experience, but then processing it with time, makes a much better learning experience. Spencer Horn (47:08) Lots there. I mean, the stories are really the trigger for people to act. It's not the information. It's not the research. (47:18) It's not the data, which is why in the beginning I'm like, OK, you do all this education. But it's not the knowledge in itself. It's the stories that connect people to the why, is what I heard. You said something else that I think is really important. (47:34) First responders, military, they always do an after-action review. And I love the ideas of the cameras. I remember this story of Top Gun pilots, and they'd come back from their their simulations or their practice, and they would say, I didn't do that. I didn't know. (47:54) Well, we got it right here on camera. So it got rid of all the ego, got rid of all the bravado. Christian Napier (48:00) I would love to have those cameras in the corporate office, maybe. Spencer Horn (48:06) But why do you think that so often we avoid after-action review? And what's the benefit of doing that after-action review if you are a regular business leader? Brad Newbury (48:21) I think that first and foremost if you don't do the after action fairly quickly after the action the lies get made up right and unless you have it on film or you know you have it on video film date myself if you have it on video then then the true evaluator you know again And not because people are trying to make up lies, but also the memory of the incident might be skewed. And that was one incredible lesson we took away from Joey was even though he had the experience, he hadn't had time to codify it in his brain. So if you would have put a gun to that poor kid's head and said, were you on the second floor? (48:59) He would have said no, because he had no memory of it. Now, all the corporate, you know, we think about from a corporate standpoint, is when we just went through something, and we do that actually here at our school. When we, after a skills training session, particularly we use, we have a boot camp for our EMT and paramedic students. So EMT students is one week, paramedics is two weeks. (49:21) And after the two weeks, we, or even sometimes daily, our our leaders will sit down with our education staff and say, OK, what did we do well today? What could we have done better? How did the students do? And we really do that after action. (49:36) And then we really unpack that. And then we start to think about, how can we be better? And I think organizations, if they did that, and they did that with in a way where the leader has to be seen as someone, it's not going to be punitive, right? You have to build that trust over time prior to having those exercises because, you know, I think it's, oh, I can't remember his name, but anyway, there's a, you know, Anyway, if you have a leader who's sitting in a room saying, tell me what I did wrong, but (50:11) if you're not accepting to that information or you haven't built trust where you're not going to bite their head off or there's not going to be a punitive action after, then no one's going to say anything. And so you have to build that trust with your team to be able to give them a voice. And of course, they have to be respectful and all those things that go on in those types of boardrooms. But the leader has to be open to hearing that, hey, we did something wrong here. (50:41) And how do we fix it and move on? How do we make the next decision? I think that just comes down to who that leader is, how do they see themselves, and how can they lead from that place of empathy and trust. Christian Napier (50:53) So for my final question, before I hand it over to Spencer for his final question or questions, I want to expand on this a little bit, because Kira, you mentioned early on that in this profession or this collection of professions, there's a high degree of turnover, right? And I suspect that some of that can be due to some burnout and stress. You mentioned you're dealing with very high pressure emotional situations. And so how do you start from the beginning when you're teaching and training individuals, how do you help them develop skills of emotional resilience to get through these things? (51:45) Because I'm not in that situation, but I can only imagine that you know, not everybody can be saved. And what happens when you do your very best, but the outcome, it doesn't work out for some people, unfortunately. And that can be a lot of weight for people to carry on their shoulders. And so I'm just curious to hear from your perspective once again, you know, kind of continuing on the hot debrief type of thing is like, how do we care for our people to make sure that, you know, And they can continue and function through very, very challenging experiences. Kiera Newbury (52:26) I think one of the biggest things that we really need to hone in on is skills and tools mentally that we can use to debrief ourselves, but with other people as well. And one of those things, especially in the classroom and in education, we can do is by telling these stories, by making sure that every single person knows not every outcome is good. We're here to save people's lives, but sometimes we can't. It's not our fault, but it's just something that we have to be there to do. (52:57) And we're putting ourselves in these situations to see certain things and to feel these certain things, but we need to know how to deal with them. And this is something that has really only been implemented within the past two or so decades, really. I mean, even in one of the stories in our book in 2010, they didn't have a critical incident management system where they had people come in and help this young kid who had saved, it was his second day on the job as a firefighter. And he found his fellow firefighter in cardiac arrest, and he had to do life-saving measures. (53:34) And he didn't get to talk to professional people. He talked to a priest, a chaplain. And so, these things really have just been coming in the past few years, but there are real things that you can implement in your own, in your own space. And it's box breathing or even just normalizing therapy, normalizing these mental health things that we can do to keep ourselves healthy. (54:05) Because when you're mentally healthy, you're physically healthy too. You can continue carrying out what your mission is and what you set out to do in the beginning. And I think that really starts with normalizing these things. They need to be said within the classroom. (54:19) It starts the second that they are put into any scenario, real or not. Brad Newbury (54:25) I have a favorite saying to our students is, if you've done everything clinically correct and the patient still dies, it's not your fault, it was just your problem. Spencer Horn (54:36) Yeah, great advice. All right, we have to get to the lightning round or we're running out of time here. Okay, so for both of you, one word that describes a great crew. Integrity. Kiera Newbury (54:53) One word I was going to say, work together. Cohesion, I'll say. Spencer Horn (54:58) Good. Trained or willing, which is harder to build? Kiera Newbury (55:02) Willing. Spencer Horn (55:03) Willing. Best advice your dad ever gave you, Kara, one sentence. Kiera Newbury (55:12) If you did everything right, then it's just your problem. Spencer Horn (55:16) Brad, one thing Kara has taught you. Listen to the younger generation. Both of them. They add value. (55:25) Checklists or instincts? Instincts. Instincts. Coffee before a night shift or after? Kiera Newbury (55:36) Before and after. Spencer Horn (55:38) I'm after. One word for how it feels when a save goes right. One word. Kiera Newbury (55:46) Enlightening. Spencer Horn (55:48) Emotional. Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. True or overrated? Kiera Newbury (55:56) True. Spencer Horn (55:56) True. Fill in the blank, the best teammates all have this in common. Kiera Newbury (56:04) Camaraderie. Spencer Horn (56:06) Trust. Finish this sentence, great teamwork happens when? Kiera Newbury (56:11) You trust your teammates. Spencer Horn (56:17) and you read the saved effect. How many saved effects can you see in that picture, Christian? Christian Napier (56:29) I see two, but I hope to see many more. And hopefully they're in your listeners' hands. We will make sure to put links in the show notes so people can go out and buy the books. the saved effect. (56:43) And I wish we had more time because I'd like to talk about how that book came together and everything. But this has been a fantastic conversation. So Brad and Kira, if people want to learn more about the work that you're doing, about the education you're providing, about your book, what's the best way for folks to connect with you? Brad Newbury (57:10) Best Ways on all socials, Brad Newberry. Also the savedeffect.com is our website for our book. But also we have bradnewberry.com, kierannewberry.com. Kiera Newbury (57:21) Kieran Newberry on all socials. And if you buy our book and then head back to our website, fill out the form, you can get $300 worth of bonuses, which include the e-book and the audio book. Christian Napier (57:37) All right, fantastic. Listeners, go do that. We're so grateful that you were able to join us, Brad and Kyra. This conversation was really enlightening for me. (57:47) I learned a lot, and I appreciate you taking the time to share. And Spencer, I learned a lot from you as well. You, you've been helping teams for decades. What's the best way for folks to connect with you? Spencer Horn (57:58) Just reach out to me on LinkedIn. I love it when people, Spencer Horn, Altium Leadership, reach out to me. And Christian, isn't he great? Kieran and Brad, aren't you glad he's in the world? Christian Napier (58:11) How do the people get a hold of you for your great wisdom? Oh, LinkedIn's good. Yeah, just find me there. It's easy. Spencer Horn (58:19) Yeah, we're old people. I'm on TikTok, though, in case, you know, I don't know you guys. Christian Napier (58:24) Yeah, I don't have a TikTok account. I only have Instagram because my daughter made me get one. Brad Newbury (58:29) So if you can see that video of me. Before this book, I had none of those. I had Facebook and LinkedIn. That was it. (58:36) Right. Right. Spencer Horn (58:37) So now I have to have TikTok. Crap. Yeah. I refuse Snapchat, though. (58:43) I don't have that. Kiera Newbury (58:44) Yeah, that's okay. That's not too shameful. Christian Napier (58:47) Good. All right. Well, Brad and Kira, once again, thank you so much for joining us today. Listeners, viewers, go check out The Saved Effect. (58:58) Check out their website. Connect with them. Thank you for joining us as well. We appreciate you. (59:03) And please like and subscribe to our podcast. We'll catch you again soon. Brad Newbury (59:08) Thank you so much for having me.