WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.906 --> 00:00:17.966 jethro_2_04-23-2025_143737: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.476 --> 00:00:19.976 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:19.976 --> 00:00:22.676 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:35.463 --> 00:00:37.623 Welcome to Transformative Principal. 00:00:37.743 --> 00:00:39.603 Today we are doing something special. 00:00:39.603 --> 00:00:43.413 I'm releasing a space that Damon Hargraves and I did. 00:00:43.773 --> 00:00:53.313 Damon was, uh, assistant principal and district level stuff, and Kodiak School District where he and I worked together and it was awesome. 00:00:53.343 --> 00:01:01.833 We did some really cool things and I'm going to, uh, be sharing this with you, and then we're going to be doing more spaces on x. 00:01:02.163 --> 00:01:03.303 About these topics. 00:01:03.303 --> 00:01:10.893 So if you are interested and think this would be something curious to learn about, please follow us and reach out when we do these. 00:01:11.223 --> 00:01:16.233 Um, we haven't made a schedule or anything 'cause um, that's not really our style. 00:01:16.233 --> 00:01:21.213 So, but if people are listening and are interested, then we will probably do better at that. 00:01:21.213 --> 00:01:26.223 So if you like this, give us a follow and let us know and we look forward to hearing more from you. 00:01:26.493 --> 00:01:31.773 In the show notes on this episode is the link to the Twitter thread that talked about this. 00:01:32.088 --> 00:01:37.158 So, uh, you can go check that out and thanks so much for listening. 00:01:37.188 --> 00:01:38.688 Here's my conversation with Damon. 00:01:39.663 --> 00:01:39.898 Jethro D. Jones: Up and running. 00:01:40.758 --> 00:01:42.333 Up and running. 00:01:43.443 --> 00:01:44.223 All right. 00:01:44.313 --> 00:01:47.013 And then, uh, it says this thing's recording, right? 00:01:47.013 --> 00:01:47.313 So. 00:01:47.883 --> 00:01:51.483 I'm gonna record a backup anyway, just 'cause that's the kind of nerd I am. 00:01:52.653 --> 00:01:53.313 Damon Hargraves: Huge. 00:01:53.313 --> 00:01:54.003 Huge nerd. 00:01:55.863 --> 00:01:56.613 Jethro D. Jones: Huge nerd. 00:01:57.123 --> 00:01:57.513 Damon Hargraves: So big. 00:01:58.143 --> 00:01:59.943 Jethro D. Jones: Uh, so big. 00:02:00.063 --> 00:02:04.953 All right, so, uh, let me get this out on the, the internet. 00:02:06.993 --> 00:02:08.253 Lemme just post this. 00:02:19.388 --> 00:02:20.768 And then if you have any, uh 00:02:23.028 --> 00:02:23.248 oh. 00:02:23.508 --> 00:02:24.688 Damon Hargraves: Did you discover the pause? 00:02:25.023 --> 00:02:26.223 Discovered the soundboard? 00:02:26.253 --> 00:02:26.733 Yes. 00:02:27.183 --> 00:02:27.603 Jethro D. Jones: Oh boy. 00:02:27.603 --> 00:02:28.233 Here we go. 00:02:29.703 --> 00:02:38.793 Um, if you have any like notes, if you post them in the, in our shared note, then I'll add 'em to my, to the timeline on this post. 00:02:39.093 --> 00:02:39.843 Does that sound good? 00:02:40.683 --> 00:02:41.253 Sounds good. 00:02:43.233 --> 00:02:43.503 Okay. 00:02:44.853 --> 00:02:45.213 All right. 00:02:45.213 --> 00:02:57.453 And then, you know, the, the, the, the tweet or the ex post gets, when it's a space, then it, the space disappears eventually, but the. 00:02:58.698 --> 00:03:02.988 This original post that I did will now be living forever. 00:03:03.138 --> 00:03:05.508 So, um, all right. 00:03:05.508 --> 00:03:09.108 So Damon Hargraves, welcome as always. 00:03:09.228 --> 00:03:14.628 Uh, let's, while we're getting started, why don't you just tell people a little bit about who you are and what you do. 00:03:15.948 --> 00:03:21.138 Damon Hargraves: Yeah, so currently I'm the principal of Peters Elementary here in Kodiak, Alaska. 00:03:21.288 --> 00:03:28.098 I've been a administrator here for about, man, 15 years or so, 14 years, somewhere around there. 00:03:28.728 --> 00:03:33.708 Um, and, uh, worked around Alaska, um, 00:03:36.438 --> 00:03:38.388 and around the country. 00:03:38.448 --> 00:03:42.078 Was working in, um, Missouri for a little bit in. 00:03:42.918 --> 00:03:46.128 At Missouri State University and Jury University. 00:03:46.698 --> 00:03:49.098 But yeah, I've been pretty settled here for quite a while now. 00:03:52.333 --> 00:03:57.618 Jethro D. Jones: You, you have been, so you and I were, uh, principal and assistant principal together in Kodiak. 00:03:57.618 --> 00:04:01.638 And then you went to the district office while I stayed at, uh, the middle school. 00:04:01.698 --> 00:04:10.788 And then, um, then I went on to Fairbanks and now I, uh, do consulting with principals about, uh, how to. 00:04:11.478 --> 00:04:17.898 How to lead their schools in a Transformative way so that they actually make the change that they wanna see happen. 00:04:17.898 --> 00:04:38.418 So today we're talking about software in schools and there are a couple things that we're gonna talk about here, but I wanna get something out of the way first, which is the amazing capability of AI development that exists where if you have something that you. 00:04:39.348 --> 00:04:46.728 Want to create, you can just use AI to make the app for probably 25 to $35. 00:04:46.788 --> 00:05:01.488 And I've seen a few different people create very specific tools for their schools that would have cost, you know, hours and hours of development, plus paying developers and all that stuff, and. 00:05:02.448 --> 00:05:06.168 These are non, uh, coding people that are creating these things. 00:05:06.558 --> 00:05:12.738 And I just think that it is really amazing and it's incredible what people are doing. 00:05:12.888 --> 00:05:15.018 Um, have you had any experience with that? 00:05:16.098 --> 00:05:18.438 Damon Hargraves: Um, just kind of played around with it a little bit. 00:05:18.498 --> 00:05:31.578 I'm kind of curious to know what AI tools you see kind of percolating to the top as being good ones to use maybe for teachers in a school environment and, uh, what ones are popular out there just in general. 00:05:32.973 --> 00:05:41.733 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, so there's a whole bunch, and I'll put a few in the links, uh, to the tweet where I announced this one on, uh, at Jethro Jones. 00:05:42.123 --> 00:05:53.313 And, um, the one that I've used, and I just wanna describe this a little bit because I, I think it's worthwhile to see how unique and special this can be. 00:05:53.463 --> 00:05:57.813 So I have this project I'm working on called A Decade, never to Be Forgotten. 00:05:58.173 --> 00:06:09.993 And, um, and the point of it is to share how people's lives have changed over the next 10 years, but to do it while it's happening. 00:06:09.993 --> 00:06:19.443 So I'm interviewing people, uh, every year and they're given month, and I'm coming back and asking these people questions about how they're growing and how they're becoming better. 00:06:19.443 --> 00:06:23.373 And one of the things that's with that is this idea of a 10 year journal. 00:06:23.703 --> 00:06:32.733 And you, the way that the tenure year journal works is that every year you answer 366 questions or 365. 00:06:33.093 --> 00:06:36.123 Last year was a leap year, so it was 360 6. 00:06:36.603 --> 00:06:46.743 And, and then you can use that to, um, you can use that to, uh, to see how you're growing and changing over time. 00:06:46.743 --> 00:06:51.033 So I needed a way to ask the same question every year on the same day. 00:06:51.393 --> 00:06:55.443 I developed that and, and I used AI to do it. 00:06:55.443 --> 00:07:01.503 And it is incredible what has happened, uh, with that, that it, that it actually works. 00:07:01.833 --> 00:07:13.413 And I didn't know how to do this, but if I wanted a developer to do it, it would've taken a long time, it would've taken a lot of money, and now I was able to. 00:07:13.863 --> 00:07:16.113 Just make it happen on my own. 00:07:16.383 --> 00:07:19.533 And now that exists@adntbf.com. 00:07:19.773 --> 00:07:25.503 And again, that's linked in the, in the tweet below this, uh, so that people can go check it out. 00:07:25.503 --> 00:07:30.693 And it's, it's pretty cool because it asks you a question every day, short answer, and that's it. 00:07:30.693 --> 00:07:38.193 And so I use the app called Rept to develop that, and it took $25. 00:07:38.223 --> 00:07:40.773 I had a very clear idea of exactly what I needed it to do. 00:07:41.313 --> 00:07:48.633 And I think the key is when you have a small idea and it's clear and focused, then you can get something up and running pretty quickly. 00:07:50.463 --> 00:07:53.403 Damon Hargraves: What was the development process like for that? 00:07:53.403 --> 00:07:55.503 Do you just kind of put in descriptors? 00:07:56.913 --> 00:07:57.453 Do you Yeah, 00:07:57.453 --> 00:08:01.743 Jethro D. Jones: so it, it was basically that I just said, here's what I want it to do. 00:08:02.313 --> 00:08:04.173 Go make it, and then it did it. 00:08:04.773 --> 00:08:08.553 So like I just had a good idea of what I wanted. 00:08:08.553 --> 00:08:10.323 I want people to be able to have an account. 00:08:10.893 --> 00:08:17.493 Get an email every day saying this is, uh, this is what's happening, or this is what the question is for the day. 00:08:17.793 --> 00:08:22.863 And then, um, and then they just answer by clicking on the link in the email. 00:08:23.163 --> 00:08:27.783 And then, you know, I added in achievements and streak things and all that kind of stuff. 00:08:27.783 --> 00:08:32.433 So, um, so, you know, it was very simple for me to use. 00:08:32.928 --> 00:08:38.328 My regular language to say this is what I need it to do, and then it did it for me. 00:08:38.478 --> 00:08:40.878 And like, is this thing perfect Damon? 00:08:40.908 --> 00:08:41.328 No. 00:08:41.478 --> 00:08:49.458 But it's good enough for what I need to have, have happen, and there are things that I would like to have it be better at. 00:08:49.518 --> 00:08:54.468 Like, I'd like you to be able to just reply to the email and it will put the answer in there. 00:08:54.858 --> 00:08:58.698 But that's not, I don't know how to do that and I don't understand that yet. 00:08:58.698 --> 00:09:01.428 I'm sure it could figure it out, but the AI is not smart enough. 00:09:01.863 --> 00:09:05.823 To get everything right the first time and a few different times it's, it's crap to the bed. 00:09:05.823 --> 00:09:11.313 And, and I've missed out on opportunities to do things because it didn't do a very good job. 00:09:11.883 --> 00:09:25.953 So, you know, that does still happen, but the fact that you can just like design something for your school, um, or for yourself without, without knowing anything is, is really amazing. 00:09:26.463 --> 00:09:27.963 Um, and there's a few others. 00:09:27.963 --> 00:09:30.183 There's Manus and um. 00:09:31.293 --> 00:09:35.043 And, uh, bolt and a few others that you can do stuff with. 00:09:35.043 --> 00:09:38.283 And, and it just is unlocking a lot of things for people. 00:09:38.283 --> 00:09:41.103 And again, not perfect, but still worthwhile. 00:09:41.733 --> 00:09:50.343 Damon Hargraves: Did it, um, did it pick a programming language to work in, or did you define that or did you just say, here's what I want, and then it just went to town? 00:09:51.963 --> 00:09:55.143 Jethro D. Jones: Because of the work you and I have been doing together that we'll talk about in a little bit. 00:09:55.143 --> 00:10:02.853 I told to use Ruby on Rails and it didn't, so it, uh, it chose its own thing and I was like, use Ruby on Rails for this. 00:10:02.853 --> 00:10:05.793 And it's like, okay, I'll use this other thing that I want to. 00:10:05.793 --> 00:10:10.263 So it's using TypeScript and, uh, JavaScript, CSS and HTML. 00:10:10.623 --> 00:10:12.033 So pretty basic stuff. 00:10:12.093 --> 00:10:13.473 It's not super complex. 00:10:15.963 --> 00:10:16.623 Damon Hargraves: That's amazing. 00:10:16.683 --> 00:10:36.273 Uh, that just kinda shows you, I. What you and I have been, you know, thinking about and talking about some in the background here where it's just lowering the bar so much to get an initial product created and so all it's gonna open up a world to all these niche things getting created. 00:10:36.273 --> 00:10:37.503 Very, very specific. 00:10:38.883 --> 00:10:45.213 You know, things that would've never gotten created 'cause maybe there's not a big enough market for it, or it's bringing. 00:10:45.858 --> 00:10:54.588 These possibly niche ideas or people that have ideas but don't have the skillset into, uh, potentially a broader market. 00:10:54.588 --> 00:10:57.948 So something really specific that meets the need of a teacher, let's say. 00:10:58.458 --> 00:11:00.198 And they, they have it outlined in their head. 00:11:00.198 --> 00:11:01.458 They know exactly what they need. 00:11:02.178 --> 00:11:06.288 Well, it's likely that other teachers need that, you know? 00:11:06.618 --> 00:11:10.248 Um, or it could just be solving their own problem in their class, you know? 00:11:10.953 --> 00:11:11.373 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:11:11.613 --> 00:11:19.803 Well, and here's, here's the next thing that I'm working on building, which is a social story creator for people with disabilities. 00:11:19.833 --> 00:11:27.903 And as, as you know, a social story is, uh, a way to teach someone through a story what they need to do. 00:11:27.903 --> 00:11:30.513 I. To interact in the world. 00:11:30.603 --> 00:11:38.583 And this is something that's very valuable for kids with autism, with sometimes A DHD, sometimes, uh, especially with Down Syndrome. 00:11:38.583 --> 00:11:53.493 That's the case where I'm thinking about it and what my daughter needs is she needs to understand how to ride the bus as she's becoming an adult, starts to do things on her, um, and how to call and make a reservation. 00:11:58.728 --> 00:12:02.478 When she was school, uh, you know, her teachers would make a social story. 00:12:02.478 --> 00:12:07.098 But making a social story that's individualized for a particular student can be very challenging. 00:12:07.668 --> 00:12:23.388 But using an AI tool, um, to do that, which is what I'm working on now, is, is going to be much more valuable because you can just like say, here's the person, here's the picture of them, here's. 00:12:24.858 --> 00:12:34.728 I want them to do now let's go to it, have it, and then I got a social story in just a couple minutes instead of in the hours that it would typically take. 00:12:36.798 --> 00:12:38.688 Damon Hargraves: Yeah, it's, it's really, really amazing. 00:12:38.778 --> 00:12:45.468 And you know, that's probably not a tool that would necessarily get high on a list. 00:12:46.233 --> 00:12:49.113 A of a developer as they're thinking about all these other things. 00:12:49.113 --> 00:12:52.473 But, um, I think there's definitely a market for that. 00:12:52.473 --> 00:12:54.063 There's, there's definitely a need, right? 00:12:54.543 --> 00:12:55.563 So, yeah. 00:12:55.983 --> 00:12:56.673 That's exciting. 00:12:57.243 --> 00:13:08.793 And you have the, you know, personal experience to be able to build something that is actually usable and actually beneficial in that. 00:13:09.198 --> 00:13:09.948 Context. 00:13:09.948 --> 00:13:11.868 So it's pretty awesome, man. 00:13:12.858 --> 00:13:13.158 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:13:13.188 --> 00:13:29.898 So like we're talking about a bigger idea of software specifically for schools, but this is one of those things where schools have unique and specific requirements and you have this idea about the apps that we use influencing the way we work and think. 00:13:29.898 --> 00:13:31.908 So will you talk about that a little bit? 00:13:31.908 --> 00:13:35.058 'cause I love it when you, when you talk about this stuff, 00:13:36.163 --> 00:13:36.453 Damon Hargraves: well. 00:13:38.328 --> 00:13:44.658 It's the, the tools that we use are what we kinda live in every day, right? 00:13:44.658 --> 00:13:45.438 So if you're. 00:13:46.188 --> 00:13:57.348 If your school uses email all the time, then you're, you're, you start to think in a framework of, of email and communicating that way. 00:13:57.558 --> 00:14:00.618 Um, most schools probably use email quite heavily. 00:14:01.368 --> 00:14:11.238 Um, if you're a, a Microsoft district or a Google Apps district, then you start using those tools. 00:14:11.238 --> 00:14:13.818 You start using those tools with your peers. 00:14:14.673 --> 00:14:22.473 And then so much of, of how you communicate starts to, um, be affected by those apps, right? 00:14:22.503 --> 00:14:31.353 So if we're, if we're using Microsoft Word, uh, then, then that's gonna change how we think. 00:14:31.413 --> 00:14:39.873 You know, we're, we're, we're thinking in like, uh, you know, building attachments and or sharing URLs to collaborate on documents. 00:14:40.383 --> 00:14:42.003 Um, and it can. 00:14:43.683 --> 00:14:48.063 It, frankly, it can negatively affect or take you off track from where you really want to be. 00:14:48.633 --> 00:15:07.473 Um, you know, it's kind of like we could probably, if I ran a restaurant, we probably could run everything in a spreadsheet, you know, take, take orders in the, we could collaborate, live in a document and put put orders in a spreadsheet, and the cooks would be in the back seeing orders come up and. 00:15:08.208 --> 00:15:11.808 There was a time probably where we would think that that would be really cool. 00:15:11.868 --> 00:15:18.948 You know, 15 years ago, 20 years ago, that would be pretty amazing just to have that synchronized that way. 00:15:19.518 --> 00:15:32.478 But now, you know, in a, in a restaurant, you have special tools that help the waitresses and waiters communicate with the cooks in the back, and it's very, very streamlined and helps them. 00:15:33.138 --> 00:15:45.648 Ideally, it's getting out of the way enough to where the wait staff can interact with the customers, and the customers are having a good experience and the cooks in the back are getting the information in a timely way. 00:15:45.648 --> 00:15:57.168 So that's, that's just a, maybe an example, but, um, the kind of the generic tools or the corporate tools that we adopt in a school. 00:15:58.113 --> 00:16:10.533 I fear may be negatively affecting the way that we collaborate with each other and maybe the way that we talk about and think about our students even. 00:16:11.108 --> 00:16:11.528 Jethro D. Jones: Mm-hmm. 00:16:11.798 --> 00:16:12.088 Yeah. 00:16:12.288 --> 00:16:13.983 I, I, I agree with you. 00:16:13.983 --> 00:16:26.313 And the, the thing that is key here is that the thing you first said, that the way the apps we use determine how we are going to work, and so this really. 00:16:26.913 --> 00:16:33.153 Like became very clear to me when we developed our own app and started using that. 00:16:33.153 --> 00:16:41.463 And then I was like, oh, now that we're using this, I can think of 10 different ways that we can use this tool again and again. 00:16:41.773 --> 00:16:43.513 But I think about that a lot now. 00:16:43.573 --> 00:16:57.043 And so when I am adopting something new or trying to teach somebody else to use something new, I started, uh, thinking about this through the tools that I was using and what that looked like. 00:16:57.193 --> 00:17:02.203 And, and so when I teach someone something new or try to, uh. 00:17:02.923 --> 00:17:09.343 Adopt a new tool myself, I'm constantly thinking, how is this going to change all the other things that I'm doing? 00:17:09.343 --> 00:17:16.693 And is this change worthwhile for me to adopt this new process and this new way of doing things? 00:17:17.323 --> 00:17:21.883 And I, I hadn't thought about that, um, previously in my life. 00:17:21.883 --> 00:17:29.653 And so now that I do, I, I find it really fascinating because there's, there's a lot, um. 00:17:30.538 --> 00:17:36.958 There's a lot to it that can change about what you're doing because you are, because of the software that you're using. 00:17:37.348 --> 00:17:39.718 And I think most people just don't think about that at all. 00:17:41.728 --> 00:17:43.408 Damon Hargraves: No, I don't, I don't think we do. 00:17:43.528 --> 00:17:47.188 Uh, we definitely don't think about that enough in schools. 00:17:47.308 --> 00:17:50.968 You know, the, that the software impacts. 00:17:52.933 --> 00:17:55.993 How you think impacts how you interact? 00:17:56.113 --> 00:18:01.633 So you alluded to this a little bit earlier, but you know, years ago we designed some software. 00:18:02.233 --> 00:18:07.633 Um, we could have facilitated what we were doing there a number of different ways, right? 00:18:07.663 --> 00:18:10.903 And it was a tool to help us work with our students. 00:18:11.443 --> 00:18:18.613 Um, but there wasn't a tool there, there, there wasn't a way for us to use, um, the software that we had available to us. 00:18:19.558 --> 00:18:22.078 To help keep students first. 00:18:22.228 --> 00:18:36.328 So we, uh, from the, from the very start, we designed a, a new software app to help students get a voice in where they were going within their school day. 00:18:36.688 --> 00:18:46.648 And, and, and, you know, it was nimble enough to get updated and change every two weeks, and it allowed for every single student. 00:18:47.338 --> 00:18:59.578 To, um, have a, a voice in where they were going, and it allowed our teachers to, you know, make requests to where, uh, and recommendations for where they think students should go. 00:19:00.028 --> 00:19:01.438 And it, and it worked really well. 00:19:01.468 --> 00:19:12.238 So that could be like a perfect example, um, for a, a future app, whether it's developed by AI or something else. 00:19:12.238 --> 00:19:13.588 But the, uh. 00:19:15.608 --> 00:19:25.633 I if we tried to do that in a spreadsheet, which I think a lot of, uh, we were basically organizing and scheduling our interventions. 00:19:25.693 --> 00:19:26.053 Right. 00:19:26.683 --> 00:19:32.533 Most schools right now I think are doing that in a giant spreadsheet, which, which is awfully cumbersome. 00:19:32.533 --> 00:19:32.593 Yeah. 00:19:32.893 --> 00:19:33.763 And prone to air. 00:19:36.133 --> 00:19:37.003 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, for sure. 00:19:37.003 --> 00:19:42.313 And that's, that is what we had debated doing because you like spent a weekend. 00:19:43.798 --> 00:19:49.318 Uh, taking these FileMaker Pro courses to figure out how to use FileMaker Pro to do what we were doing. 00:19:49.798 --> 00:19:51.808 And so like we could have done it. 00:19:51.808 --> 00:20:12.268 But then again, we go back to this idea of shoehorning the, the technology into a school context when it wasn't designed to be that way in the first place, which is one of the major problems with any software that schools are adopting is, you know, even things like Microsoft Office that is not designed. 00:20:12.928 --> 00:20:19.528 For schools, uh, Google apps for education, not designed for schools originally. 00:20:19.918 --> 00:20:23.578 It's a business tool that is shoehorned into a school environment. 00:20:26.308 --> 00:20:27.058 Damon Hargraves: Absolutely. 00:20:27.613 --> 00:20:35.368 And, and all of those are prone to certain types of errors that would be unacceptable. 00:20:35.953 --> 00:20:43.813 For us, just fat f you know, fat fingering a cell in spreadsheet, in a spreadsheet would really mess things up. 00:20:44.083 --> 00:21:02.623 You know, and I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but you know, you can really go down the rabbit hole of protecting cells and, and you know, building in formulas and you build this huge advanced thing that at some point it's gonna fail you. 00:21:02.683 --> 00:21:03.373 And really. 00:21:03.928 --> 00:21:14.908 You know, you're gonna end up doing something that, uh, you didn't want to do, or you will be wondering, why on earth is it telling me this? 00:21:14.998 --> 00:21:21.718 Uh, where in my nest of, uh, you know, my web that I've created here is, is the error. 00:21:21.718 --> 00:21:24.688 And then you spend time, uh, fiddling with, with. 00:21:25.543 --> 00:21:30.433 Seeking stuff out and you're not actually collaborating or working with kids, which is what you wanna do. 00:21:31.663 --> 00:21:40.153 So a good rock solid system that is working the way you're supposed to be working and want to work is, is great. 00:21:40.453 --> 00:21:40.783 You know? 00:21:40.783 --> 00:21:44.413 And you, you and I have experienced that and it's amazing. 00:21:46.633 --> 00:21:46.873 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:21:47.263 --> 00:21:52.333 It, it feels like when it's working, how you actually need it to. 00:21:54.313 --> 00:21:57.763 Serving you that it is in service to what you're trying to accomplish. 00:21:57.763 --> 00:22:07.843 And so it becomes, uh, it becomes so much more valuable than it is in and of itself because it's doing exactly what you need it to do. 00:22:08.293 --> 00:22:16.153 And so, so many times I've done things in greatest things that are like, I gotta just like force this thing to work. 00:22:16.243 --> 00:22:23.083 And it just becomes so demoralizing because it's like, oh, this again, this is like such a heavy lift every time. 00:22:23.653 --> 00:22:30.583 Somebody makes a mistake on it or, or enter something in a cell that I thought was protected but it wasn't, or whatever. 00:22:30.583 --> 00:22:34.543 And those are very real issues that the educators deal with on a regular basis. 00:22:35.893 --> 00:22:41.438 Damon Hargraves: And kind of the, one of the things that goes along with this, and I know you and I have both done this, is you feel. 00:22:42.148 --> 00:22:52.318 You feel kind of proud or you get a sense of accomplishment when you're able to force whatever the, the district tool is into doing what you want. 00:22:53.098 --> 00:22:59.158 But I think with, you know, over time you realize that you. 00:23:00.988 --> 00:23:10.558 Yes, you were able to accomplish something, so that's good, but you're, you're still operating in a system that's prone to air prone to have issues prone to break. 00:23:11.068 --> 00:23:19.108 Um, but our teachers are so creative and so industrious and so driven to meet the needs of their students. 00:23:19.528 --> 00:23:24.898 They're making things work that really, you know, we need to get past that. 00:23:24.898 --> 00:23:28.588 We need to grow as a system and. 00:23:29.053 --> 00:23:32.413 Start using better tools is my thought. 00:23:35.323 --> 00:23:49.963 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, that that's exactly what we need to be doing because teachers do make things work and a lot of times it's easier to just force it and make it work rather than try to like create something different. 00:23:50.068 --> 00:23:53.083 At least that's how it was in the past and what I'm. 00:23:54.463 --> 00:24:22.033 You can design a specific piece of software that is exactly what you need, and maybe somebody else doesn't have the best idea out there, and, and the barrier to entry is low enough that you can do this yourself, and, and it might be worth a couple hours on a weekend to create something instead of a couple hours every couple weeks trying to maintain some terrible thing that you already have in place. 00:24:24.508 --> 00:24:31.798 Damon Hargraves: Man, teacher pay teachers is gonna have to start a app tag or app category. 00:24:34.408 --> 00:24:35.998 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, I, I think so. 00:24:36.178 --> 00:24:39.148 And can you imagine how much more powerful that would be? 00:24:39.718 --> 00:24:41.848 Like, dang, that's actually what we need to do. 00:24:41.848 --> 00:24:49.168 We need to make the teacher pay teacher for software for made, for and by teachers. 00:24:53.923 --> 00:24:56.263 Damon Hargraves: Note to self, somebody by the domain. 00:24:56.263 --> 00:24:56.623 Note to self. 00:24:57.928 --> 00:24:58.218 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:24:59.173 --> 00:24:59.953 Oh, we're too late. 00:25:03.448 --> 00:25:06.508 What other thoughts do you have around these apps made Ally for school? 00:25:07.528 --> 00:25:13.588 Damon Hargraves: Well, I just, one of the things I, I look at is just what our teachers are doing, right? 00:25:13.588 --> 00:25:31.048 So I keep going back to spreadsheets, but that's really one of the main ways that we, um, our organizing our data around our students right now is, is in a shared spreadsheet with key people in our school, um, and. 00:25:34.228 --> 00:25:43.798 You know, keeping numbers in a spreadsheet, but the dialogue around the students is happening elsewhere, and so that's a real problem. 00:25:43.798 --> 00:25:44.158 You know? 00:25:44.158 --> 00:25:49.348 Yes, we have email, but that's not where that conversation should happen. 00:25:50.008 --> 00:25:57.808 Um, we might have a chat app or, uh, something like that in our school, but just a, a chat. 00:25:58.648 --> 00:26:00.148 Here and there is, is not. 00:26:00.148 --> 00:26:23.848 We need a way to, again, keep the focus on the students, have things, follow students across contexts, and, you know, have that conversation continue to happen and have that conversation reveal itself to people, um, when they get involved, you know, and be able to look back and have a timeline. 00:26:23.848 --> 00:26:27.268 And, and there's just, there, there isn't a tool right now. 00:26:28.288 --> 00:26:31.708 In most districts that is facilitating that for teachers. 00:26:31.708 --> 00:26:47.428 And it's kind of a, we're just not recognizing collectively that the, these tools, like you said, these corporate tools are really not the way that we work and really not the way that we should think about our students. 00:26:50.878 --> 00:26:53.398 Jethro D. Jones: So gimme some ideas of like, how. 00:26:54.523 --> 00:26:56.053 How you would change that? 00:26:56.383 --> 00:27:05.293 So that, um, like what are some of the design principles that you hold dear when you're thinking about software, sports tools? 00:27:07.303 --> 00:27:09.403 Damon Hargraves: So maybe some specific features. 00:27:09.493 --> 00:27:10.333 Is that what you're thinking? 00:27:12.343 --> 00:27:21.643 Jethro D. Jones: Uh, maybe, maybe features, maybe just like some things that, that, like you hinted at a couple of them, that conversation around students. 00:27:23.593 --> 00:27:24.523 Connected to them. 00:27:24.733 --> 00:27:25.093 Right? 00:27:25.123 --> 00:27:29.743 So, so let's say that you have, uh, you, you have student test scores. 00:27:30.283 --> 00:27:47.833 And so, uh, so instead of having student test scores be this thing that's over here that, that you're looking at, and then you're having a conversation in person, how could the conversation like be part of the test scores and so. 00:27:48.208 --> 00:27:56.068 How could the tracking of standards be part of the student record and the commentary on those standards could be part of it. 00:27:56.128 --> 00:27:59.578 So let, maybe if I explain this a little bit better. 00:28:00.268 --> 00:28:05.818 So let's take this idea of, of student, uh, achievement, for example. 00:28:06.238 --> 00:28:11.098 So student students knowing how to do things is pretty, I. 00:28:12.133 --> 00:28:20.833 And one of the major problems is that if it doesn't happen in my classroom, then there's no way that I give it credit, quote unquote, for happening. 00:28:21.343 --> 00:28:27.463 And so how do we give kids credit for things that they do regardless of where they do it? 00:28:27.793 --> 00:28:33.013 So let's say that a kid in a science class shows proficiency at writing something. 00:28:33.883 --> 00:28:39.343 Why can't that count as data for the English teacher? 00:28:39.943 --> 00:28:52.663 Right now it can't because the science teacher has a separate grade book from the English teacher has separate standards from the English teacher, has a separate LMS course from the English teacher. 00:28:53.623 --> 00:28:55.843 And so those things can't be shared easily. 00:28:56.293 --> 00:29:08.563 Whereas if the, if, if the focus is on the student and the students have this thing and the teachers come to the student and say, Hey, here's the history of all your writing. 00:29:08.998 --> 00:29:16.618 I as an English teacher can go see where you're at and see what you are ready for, and then help you prepare to move on to the next thing. 00:29:16.618 --> 00:29:27.418 Leave comments, say, oh, here's where I see that you have good, uh, mastery of the use of similes and metaphors, and here's where I see that you have a good use of citing evidence. 00:29:28.078 --> 00:29:35.308 Like I don't, the teacher doesn't have to create a separate assignment for that, but that's what they're doing right now. 00:29:35.638 --> 00:29:36.358 Does that make sense? 00:29:37.228 --> 00:29:38.038 Damon Hargraves: Yeah, absolutely. 00:29:38.413 --> 00:29:38.833 Absolutely. 00:29:38.923 --> 00:29:46.453 Um, and there's no way for a principal or for an instructional team to bring all that together. 00:29:46.753 --> 00:29:53.113 So I think the, the, the realization is that there's separate. 00:29:54.208 --> 00:30:10.138 Veins or separate projects or separate kinda worlds that the student lives in, whether it's things that they're doing independently at home, whether it's a club that they're a part of, whether it's, um, all the different things that are happening in school. 00:30:10.138 --> 00:30:12.148 So you talked about assessments Well. 00:30:13.288 --> 00:30:27.928 In, in my school, we have dibels, we have uh, FastBridge, we have MAP growth, we have the Alaska, um, state test, and then we have the, uh, the Alaska State Science Test. 00:30:27.988 --> 00:30:30.418 All five of those are on different platforms. 00:30:30.748 --> 00:30:32.308 They utilize different systems. 00:30:32.308 --> 00:30:33.838 They have their different requirements. 00:30:34.468 --> 00:30:36.058 Very difficult to. 00:30:36.823 --> 00:30:38.113 Bring that data. 00:30:38.323 --> 00:30:46.303 I mean, one of our dreams was to build a data dashboard where we could bring all that in, um, which could still happen maybe. 00:30:46.393 --> 00:30:49.093 But what about just the communication? 00:30:49.123 --> 00:30:56.653 If we could just unify the communication, we could maintain multiple platforms, but that communication could happen in, in one place. 00:30:57.763 --> 00:31:03.613 Where the communication could be summarized and could be seen in line with each other. 00:31:03.883 --> 00:31:05.893 Um, snapshots and updates. 00:31:06.553 --> 00:31:09.553 Uh, parents could share what's happening at home. 00:31:09.553 --> 00:31:14.683 Students could present their own, um, projects as well. 00:31:14.803 --> 00:31:19.393 Um, all the different things that are happening across different interventions and. 00:31:20.578 --> 00:31:23.548 With different teachers could be presented there as well. 00:31:23.818 --> 00:31:29.458 There's just nothing like that, so that I've seen and, uh, it's certainly not common. 00:31:32.098 --> 00:31:32.398 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:31:32.398 --> 00:31:41.398 And, and so that's a big example of something that would need coordination with these different companies, with the district and all this kind of stuff. 00:31:41.878 --> 00:31:49.378 And, and that's, that's one thing, but we don't, we don't have a tool that is specifically. 00:31:50.053 --> 00:31:51.193 For that right now. 00:31:51.493 --> 00:31:53.773 Like it just, it just doesn't exist. 00:31:53.773 --> 00:31:58.963 And there's some people who are trying to build some of that stuff and trying to get those things in the same place. 00:31:59.413 --> 00:32:02.263 Um, but I don't, I don't think that it's quite there yet. 00:32:02.773 --> 00:32:15.373 But what everybody's doing, Damon, is they're, they're doing that in, uh, in spreadsheets and bringing that data in and, and then it, it's incumbent on them to. 00:32:16.648 --> 00:32:23.188 To protect that data and have it be just so that those who who have a purpose can see it. 00:32:23.698 --> 00:32:35.338 And, and then it, it basically runs into the same issue that it's like, it's still impossible to wrap your head around because, um, because the principal has a different need for the view. 00:32:35.668 --> 00:32:39.328 Then the teachers do who are actually working with that student. 00:32:39.628 --> 00:32:45.568 Then the instructional team does that, is making decisions about interventions and different things like that. 00:32:49.363 --> 00:32:49.873 Damon Hargraves: Correct. 00:32:49.873 --> 00:32:56.053 So there's, there's permissions that are involved, there's, there's kind of what needs to be seen by who. 00:32:56.203 --> 00:32:57.883 Um, all that's part of it. 00:32:59.143 --> 00:33:09.763 But, you know, the, the other thing that you're alluding there to is that that spreadsheet is usually tied to an individual and. 00:33:10.408 --> 00:33:13.588 When that individual leaves, all that history goes. 00:33:13.768 --> 00:33:22.288 So if that, um, if my third grade teacher or my school psych retires, she might be able to give that spreadsheet to somebody. 00:33:22.288 --> 00:33:23.968 But it's, it's just very difficult. 00:33:23.968 --> 00:33:25.138 It's very brittle. 00:33:25.198 --> 00:33:27.868 It's gonna break at some point somewhere along the line. 00:33:27.928 --> 00:33:29.968 If it lives in a spreadsheet, it's just gonna break. 00:33:30.268 --> 00:33:31.888 It's, it's just gonna disappear. 00:33:32.038 --> 00:33:36.898 Or that function within the school will, will be lost. 00:33:37.738 --> 00:33:38.728 And, and, uh. 00:33:39.733 --> 00:33:42.223 Very difficult to, to rebuild. 00:33:42.463 --> 00:34:04.368 Um, if you're looking for that data, when I'm, when, when we're talking about students, um, it would be wonderful if, if me as the principal, when I'm meeting with my instructional team and specifically my instructional support team, which is my psych special education staff. 00:34:05.368 --> 00:34:07.528 School counselor and instructional coach. 00:34:07.768 --> 00:34:13.438 It would be amazing if, if we could bring up a log of all of that activity. 00:34:13.558 --> 00:34:22.588 And I really like what you said earlier about being intentional about counting things that are happening outside of the school walls. 00:34:23.038 --> 00:34:28.498 So if that student went to a literacy camp in the summer. 00:34:29.188 --> 00:34:32.308 Or maybe they're writing articles for the local newspaper. 00:34:33.028 --> 00:34:40.078 That information should be in the system so that we can factor that in when we're making decisions. 00:34:41.698 --> 00:34:42.058 You know? 00:34:42.058 --> 00:34:45.688 So if we, if, if we are aware of it, where do we put it? 00:34:46.078 --> 00:34:47.368 There's no place to put it now. 00:34:47.608 --> 00:34:47.668 Yeah. 00:34:47.668 --> 00:34:50.578 So, uh, there, there needs to be a system for sure. 00:34:52.528 --> 00:34:52.858 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:34:53.338 --> 00:34:55.918 And so like we've narrowed down into. 00:34:57.253 --> 00:35:26.263 Specific use case, but imagine if, if you had a tool that was focused on the students and what they're doing and tied to them that traveled with them, that when they showed up in a new teacher's class, that that new teacher had all this information that would change how you would structure and do things in your school, which is the whole point of what we're, what we're saying here is that those, those things can happen and we can figure out a way. 00:35:26.668 --> 00:35:27.928 To make them happen. 00:35:28.168 --> 00:35:35.338 Um, and, and we can build the software, uh, or adopt software that enables that kind of stuff. 00:35:35.848 --> 00:35:40.018 And, and too often we just say, well, what do you have available? 00:35:40.018 --> 00:35:48.088 And we'll buy that because it's too much effort, too much work, too expensive to, to build our own. 00:35:48.238 --> 00:35:53.818 And to be honest, the real tragedy is that we don't actually know what we want either. 00:35:57.748 --> 00:35:59.368 Damon Hargraves: I think that's always a big question. 00:35:59.368 --> 00:36:04.738 What do we, what do we really want for our, for our kids? 00:36:04.738 --> 00:36:06.238 That's, that's an ongoing question. 00:36:06.568 --> 00:36:09.268 You might also just ask, what is it that we're doing? 00:36:09.718 --> 00:36:12.388 So what is it that we're doing right now? 00:36:12.538 --> 00:36:18.178 What pockets of information is being created around a student or what, what pockets of learning. 00:36:18.928 --> 00:36:23.518 Are happening around and what's kind of the linchpin that can bring it all together? 00:36:23.758 --> 00:36:28.078 What's the, what's, what's the thing that can bring it all together? 00:36:28.408 --> 00:36:40.228 And, and I don't think, I mean really, I don't think it's an API, it's, it's not an API to bring in the, the data from M class, you know, into a unified system. 00:36:40.228 --> 00:36:42.148 I don't, I don't really think that's the answer. 00:36:43.018 --> 00:36:45.868 I, I probably used to think that, um. 00:36:48.613 --> 00:36:56.593 But I, I think the communication around the information is actually more important than the, than the raw data. 00:36:56.653 --> 00:37:06.523 'cause you can, you look at that data and then you're, you're making, you need to be able to take a snapshot of, of where we're at right now and be able to move on from there. 00:37:06.913 --> 00:37:12.433 But it's, it's, uh, I think there's a lot of opportunity and education is changing. 00:37:12.433 --> 00:37:20.173 The way we program and develop apps is changing, and so it'll be exciting to see what happens over the next couple years. 00:37:20.653 --> 00:37:33.283 The idea of individual schools being able to create some apps for themselves, or a team of teachers to be able to create an app for themselves to help with some of this is, is exciting. 00:37:36.883 --> 00:37:46.573 Jethro D. Jones: I, I do think it's exciting and I think that it's, it's fun to think of what a, a person could do if they were to approach this in a different way. 00:37:46.573 --> 00:37:54.373 I mean, your, your idea about the communication around the information is more important than the data itself. 00:37:54.943 --> 00:38:00.793 That that's deep, man, and that, that really does matter because. 00:38:03.088 --> 00:38:17.428 What a kid can or can't do as it relates to their school progress and standards is, is good information to have, but what you're doing in response to that is so much more important. 00:38:18.343 --> 00:38:19.693 Jethro, how many times, 00:38:19.723 --> 00:38:29.863 Damon Hargraves: how many times have you been looking at a spreadsheet or been looking at data and saw a student who just completely bombed a, a, a test? 00:38:29.953 --> 00:38:38.653 They, they did something or they, um, scored something that was completely outside of where you would've expected them. 00:38:39.193 --> 00:38:40.573 What do you do with that? 00:38:41.173 --> 00:38:53.563 Well, what you do is you go talk to the teacher, you talk to the parents, you figure you have a conversation with the team, and, uh, and it's like, oh wow, that student received some really bad news the day before or something. 00:38:53.563 --> 00:39:03.253 And then, and then you count that accordingly, uh, and, and make a better decision than you would've if you were just blindly, um, following data, you know? 00:39:04.168 --> 00:39:12.148 Um, it's, it's not so much just the access to the raw data, but it really is to me more about the conversation around the student. 00:39:14.908 --> 00:39:15.358 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:39:15.448 --> 00:39:21.058 And, and so if the student does bomb something, then you can go find out and be like, what's going on? 00:39:21.088 --> 00:39:24.928 Okay, now let's figure out on like what we need to do next. 00:39:25.498 --> 00:39:29.068 Um, but if the kid is doing something that is, uh, outside. 00:39:30.658 --> 00:39:38.188 Outside of the norm, like let's say they are writing for the local newspaper or doing a story there, the same question exists. 00:39:38.638 --> 00:39:42.898 What are you doing with that information? 00:39:43.228 --> 00:39:48.958 And are you, are you saying, Hey, this kid obviously knows what they're doing. 00:39:49.378 --> 00:39:53.098 Perhaps we can find a different way for them to, to expand their skills. 00:39:53.668 --> 00:40:07.138 They obviously are interested in being published, so what if we had them, uh, work on being the editor for a school newspaper that maybe only exists for the time that they're here at our school and then it doesn't exist anymore. 00:40:07.168 --> 00:40:08.188 And that's okay too. 00:40:08.518 --> 00:40:21.418 Like it doesn't have to exist forever, but it, it can be a pretty amazing thing for a kid to be singled out for their gifts and say, Hey, you can add value to our school and give them something. 00:40:21.778 --> 00:40:23.308 Meaningful and worthwhile. 00:40:23.308 --> 00:40:32.938 That is way more valuable than them sitting in a class, uh, learning about how to write a five paragraph essay when they're literally publishing at a professional level. 00:40:36.298 --> 00:40:45.413 Damon Hargraves: And to, to tell you the truth, this, this happens, but it, it happens kind of in spite of our systems, right? 00:40:45.793 --> 00:40:46.213 Mm-hmm. 00:40:46.293 --> 00:40:49.408 So a really good teacher goes. 00:40:50.848 --> 00:40:54.688 Is involved out in the community and may see the student doing thing. 00:40:54.718 --> 00:41:03.658 I, I just think of one example of a student who I just recently saw playing in a band, um, up on stage in front of hundreds of people. 00:41:04.018 --> 00:41:14.818 Um, they were playing drums and, um, I don't, we, we had an inkling that that was kind of happening and that the student had this amazing capability. 00:41:15.448 --> 00:41:17.788 Um, but you know. 00:41:19.483 --> 00:41:20.773 I'm gonna let the teacher know. 00:41:21.013 --> 00:41:29.623 And the teachers, I know that the teacher will, will take advantage of that, those skills, and develop that student appropriately in, in the future. 00:41:30.133 --> 00:41:33.163 But it's gonna happen in spite of any of our systems. 00:41:33.883 --> 00:41:35.143 How amazing would it be? 00:41:35.863 --> 00:41:36.013 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:41:36.073 --> 00:41:38.053 Damon Hargraves: If that was part of the tool set? 00:41:38.353 --> 00:41:42.853 You know, if, if me being able to report on Holy cow, the student. 00:41:43.708 --> 00:41:45.748 Is a, is a, is an amazing drummer. 00:41:45.898 --> 00:41:51.988 Um, and that idea could, could be codified somewhere within the system. 00:41:52.228 --> 00:41:57.418 I just think, you know, a, a good teacher is, is making those connections, but it's kind of happening in their head. 00:41:57.898 --> 00:41:58.258 Right? 00:41:58.498 --> 00:42:01.288 It's, it's, they're, they're finding those connections. 00:42:01.408 --> 00:42:04.618 They're making those things happen in a school. 00:42:04.828 --> 00:42:05.458 Um. 00:42:06.253 --> 00:42:31.063 Hopefully there are effective meetings happening between key people and some of those connections are being developed, but they're, but are the systems that the school has adopted helping or inhibiting that and so much It's, it's, it's being inhibited and we're kind of operating and trying to operate that way in spite of the software. 00:42:32.713 --> 00:42:33.133 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:42:33.418 --> 00:42:44.398 Well, and you know, I was just, I was talking to a, a principal in Virginia last week and she was saying that with all this AI stuff that kids are, are starting to pee. 00:42:44.398 --> 00:42:46.018 And that's becoming an issue. 00:42:46.108 --> 00:42:56.068 And the reality is, is if, if our systems are designed for students to check, they're always gonna find the easiest way out. 00:42:56.578 --> 00:43:01.228 They're always gonna find way to, to get it done as quick as possible, because. 00:43:02.758 --> 00:43:03.118 Learn. 00:43:03.118 --> 00:43:07.738 The goal is to pick off the box, turn in the assignment, to do well on the test, whatever. 00:43:08.128 --> 00:43:13.018 And, and that's not good for anybody because everybody misses out when that happens. 00:43:13.168 --> 00:43:16.408 And everybody loses the opportunity when that happens. 00:43:16.408 --> 00:43:29.308 And what we wanna be able to do is set things up so that kids can have great opportunities and do amazing things and have support to do those things, um, throughout that process. 00:43:29.488 --> 00:43:29.908 And. 00:43:30.928 --> 00:43:41.218 Great teachers, like you said, are already doing that, and, and they're, they're having to go against the system that is in place to make sure those things happen. 00:43:41.398 --> 00:43:45.988 And that's, that's one of the things that is just a tragedy to watch. 00:43:46.648 --> 00:43:56.158 Damon Hargraves: What they have to deal with is, is email, uh, a giant spreadsheet and a student database, and that's, that's, that's what they have. 00:43:56.713 --> 00:44:06.223 So the, the system itself, the system that we've built for ourselves really isn't helping them bring these things forward. 00:44:08.293 --> 00:44:13.153 And so they're doing it kind of in spite, is the way I look at it, uh, without any help. 00:44:13.153 --> 00:44:15.523 They're good teachers are still doing it. 00:44:17.023 --> 00:44:17.233 Jethro D. Jones: Mm-hmm. 00:44:17.953 --> 00:44:18.253 Yeah. 00:44:18.643 --> 00:44:20.923 And, and they are, and we're grateful for them. 00:44:21.463 --> 00:44:21.883 Uh, but. 00:44:24.913 --> 00:44:27.253 Make it so much easier for them to do that. 00:44:27.283 --> 00:44:30.733 So let me, let me share something from my second year of teaching. 00:44:31.093 --> 00:44:39.673 We were doing this pretty intensive, uh, response intervention for students where it, there were three of us that were seeing teachers basically. 00:44:39.673 --> 00:44:42.343 And the kids would rotate through us in the morning and then rotate. 00:44:42.523 --> 00:44:44.563 Another group would rotate through us in the afternoon. 00:44:45.013 --> 00:44:52.453 And so we had some flexibility within what we were doing, where we could, um, we could take those. 00:44:53.173 --> 00:45:07.753 90 or so kids, and we could go through our three periods and, and adjust what those kids would get depending on where, um, where they were in their, in their learning. 00:45:08.173 --> 00:45:18.043 So every week we would do these things where we would assess in each of our classes, and kids who did well would go one way, and kids who did poorly would come back to our class and get retaught. 00:45:18.043 --> 00:45:18.493 Those things. 00:45:18.943 --> 00:45:26.323 We were like really specific, these are the things you need to know, like five questions and, and you just have to answer these five questions. 00:45:26.323 --> 00:45:28.873 And if you get four of the five right, you're good to go. 00:45:28.873 --> 00:45:32.563 And if you miss two, then you're gonna come back and we're gonna reteach. 00:45:33.013 --> 00:45:44.353 And so there's a lot that goes into that and, and we designed our instruction, our intervention, everything around answering these five questions each week. 00:45:45.073 --> 00:45:47.413 And what was really amazing is. 00:45:48.058 --> 00:45:53.368 When we started thinking differently, like, here's what you have to know this week. 00:45:53.998 --> 00:45:56.488 You need to be able to answer these five multiple choice questions. 00:45:57.658 --> 00:46:08.248 Then we could teach specifically what it was that we want our kids to know and we could help prepare them and help them know like, there's a whole bunch of stuff you can learn about this thing. 00:46:08.488 --> 00:46:11.878 And one of the classes was, uh, history. 00:46:14.188 --> 00:46:26.098 There's a lot you can learn about a histor, a particular historical event, but when you narrow it down to the five things that kids need to know, then that changes how you teach it, what you focus on, and where you put the emphasis. 00:46:26.218 --> 00:46:29.308 And so, so we saw that very clearly. 00:46:29.308 --> 00:46:36.418 And by changing how we did things and knowing what we were doing, uh, it totally changed how we were teaching and how we were communicating with kids. 00:46:36.868 --> 00:46:42.058 And it became this system that was, uh, reinforcing and supportive. 00:46:42.403 --> 00:46:55.873 Of what we were trying to do, and there wasn't any guessing about whether or not a kid understood something and like, I'm not saying that we, we nailed the five things each week or that they were even well done all the time. 00:46:56.173 --> 00:47:01.243 Sometimes it was like everybody's passing this because it just wasn't that complex. 00:47:01.723 --> 00:47:09.073 But we still followed the process because we had that in place to help us and it did help us tremendously. 00:47:09.973 --> 00:47:17.893 That was really valuable for us as teachers to make that work and make it be meaningful for our students and for us. 00:47:17.893 --> 00:47:28.723 And everybody knew very easily exactly where they stood because we had set all those systems up in place and we had to go outside of the system that we had, uh, in order to do that. 00:47:29.173 --> 00:47:31.483 Uh, which you and I have talked a lot about numerous. 00:47:36.628 --> 00:47:42.718 So do you think we should, uh, we should talk about the app that we're rebuilding now? 00:47:42.718 --> 00:47:44.068 Do you wanna talk a little bit about that? 00:47:45.178 --> 00:47:58.858 Damon Hargraves: Yeah, I think, I think you and I have a idea of, of several apps that need to be created, and if you're listening closely, uh, you may understand some of where we might be headed. 00:47:59.188 --> 00:48:05.248 But the first step that we're looking to create is, uh, is a remake of, of Picker. 00:48:06.043 --> 00:48:12.038 So a picker was an app that you and I had developed, man, has it been 10 years? 00:48:13.608 --> 00:48:13.898 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:48:13.998 --> 00:48:14.618 Can you believe that? 00:48:14.998 --> 00:48:15.338 10 years. 00:48:15.343 --> 00:48:15.493 10 00:48:15.493 --> 00:48:16.093 Damon Hargraves: years ago? 00:48:16.513 --> 00:48:19.213 Um, we built it for ourselves. 00:48:19.423 --> 00:48:27.283 Um, like Jethro mentioned earlier, we kinda, we were trying to figure out how we could do it with paper if we had to. 00:48:27.463 --> 00:48:28.753 'cause we knew we needed. 00:48:29.848 --> 00:48:31.738 Interventions for middle schoolers. 00:48:31.738 --> 00:48:40.888 We, we knew we needed a way to, um, help students get extra math or extra reading support within the school day. 00:48:41.638 --> 00:48:51.148 Um, so we were ready to, to come up with some paper method, with, you know, cards on doors and lists of students and, and all of that. 00:48:51.808 --> 00:48:54.868 Um, we knew that there was a better way to do it. 00:48:55.228 --> 00:48:56.638 Uh, we. 00:48:57.493 --> 00:48:59.413 We're looking at different databases. 00:48:59.413 --> 00:49:02.623 Our school district current at the time had FileMaker Pro. 00:49:02.623 --> 00:49:12.463 So over a weekend I taught myself FileMaker Pro and was developing an app with FileMaker Pro and uh. 00:49:13.828 --> 00:49:21.058 Then we were also simultaneously reaching out to a developer who we partnered inevitably ended up partnering with eventually. 00:49:21.478 --> 00:49:23.698 Uh, and, uh, built an app. 00:49:24.478 --> 00:49:26.398 Um, and it was, it was great. 00:49:26.998 --> 00:49:29.548 It made everything so much faster. 00:49:30.148 --> 00:49:39.958 And like we were talking about earlier, it really gave students, um, an opportunity to have input in their learning when it was appropriate. 00:49:39.958 --> 00:49:41.458 So if they. 00:49:43.228 --> 00:49:54.088 When it came down to it, all these different, um, interventions or, uh, classes that they could sign up for, uh, were available. 00:49:54.118 --> 00:50:05.098 They would be able to log in on the local network using their lunch code and quickly sign up for a class and they could talk with their friends and see where their friends were going and. 00:50:06.013 --> 00:50:10.453 Or they could be assigned an an intermission, uh, if they needed it. 00:50:10.453 --> 00:50:14.053 So if they needed that extra math, they were able to do it. 00:50:14.053 --> 00:50:19.543 This was for a 30 minute period and it changed e every two weeks. 00:50:20.173 --> 00:50:21.403 So it was very nimble. 00:50:21.853 --> 00:50:28.873 Um, communication was key and people needed to have the information very quickly, and we had. 00:50:30.133 --> 00:50:33.583 Very short amount of time to figure everything out if we wanted to be efficient. 00:50:33.583 --> 00:50:37.213 So, great opportunity for, for an app. 00:50:37.423 --> 00:50:48.883 And so this, this new app that we're developing is gonna be made in Ruby on Rails, and it'll, it'll be a, a full web app that people can access and use. 00:50:50.653 --> 00:50:50.863 Jethro D. Jones: Wow. 00:50:50.953 --> 00:50:55.213 And the thing that was so cool about it is that it perfectly fit our needs. 00:50:55.573 --> 00:50:59.383 And so we opened this up for students to sign up. 00:51:00.028 --> 00:51:06.688 For their, uh, tutorials is what we called them, um, in like five minutes. 00:51:07.408 --> 00:51:09.568 So it did not take long at all. 00:51:09.568 --> 00:51:19.558 The process was super quick and super easy, and anybody could do it, uh, very simply, and it was so, so stink and cool because. 00:51:20.563 --> 00:51:32.473 We, we got kids to be where they needed to be, and then they'd have the information and then it was easy for all the adults around them to help them be successful in that situation also. 00:51:32.953 --> 00:51:41.893 So if they didn't know where they were going, any teacher could look up where they were supposed to be and be able to tell right away if they were ditching something and because they didn't want to be there. 00:51:41.893 --> 00:51:44.713 Any teacher could look it up and say, oh, you're supposed to be here. 00:51:44.713 --> 00:51:46.063 Let me get you to where you need to be. 00:51:46.543 --> 00:51:47.833 And man, that was just. 00:51:48.568 --> 00:51:56.098 So slick for us to have that in place because it, it just made it so easy. 00:51:56.218 --> 00:52:05.818 And we, when kids would go to these activities, these tutorials, then they wouldn't be where PowerSchool said they would be. 00:52:05.818 --> 00:52:08.608 And so we would be able to look it up. 00:52:08.608 --> 00:52:11.248 And so if a parent came in and said, Hey, I need to pick up my kid. 00:52:11.518 --> 00:52:13.108 We could say, yeah, here you go. 00:52:13.378 --> 00:52:15.478 Here's uh, here's where they are. 00:52:15.478 --> 00:52:17.848 And we could find them very easily, which. 00:52:18.328 --> 00:52:39.448 Uh, you know, having to go into a spreadsheet and try to find that and be on the right tab for the right month for the right week, uh, that was all complicated and complex, but for what we had built, it was a, it was a piece of cake because you just pulled up and whatever is there, whatever's live is what's currently there, and you can get to it right away. 00:52:39.838 --> 00:52:41.788 Now you've got a couple things that you. 00:52:42.313 --> 00:52:46.063 Doing that are a little bit different, that are expanding the scope a little bit. 00:52:46.063 --> 00:52:50.323 Do you wanna talk about some of those things like running a chess tournament through it, for example? 00:52:50.323 --> 00:52:51.823 Or, or anything else that you wanna add? 00:52:52.333 --> 00:52:55.918 Damon Hargraves: Yeah, so basically the tool is, um. 00:52:57.028 --> 00:52:58.708 Is for grouping students. 00:52:58.768 --> 00:53:13.288 So any, any group of people, frankly, not even students, but any group of people where you need to set a start date, an end date, and be able to give them a menu of things to choose from during that time window. 00:53:14.068 --> 00:53:14.728 Um. 00:53:15.283 --> 00:53:16.333 This can be used for. 00:53:16.333 --> 00:53:23.983 So chess tournaments, uh, knowing where to go within a, a chess tournament that could be useful. 00:53:24.403 --> 00:53:28.333 Um, also I was thinking like running an ED camp. 00:53:28.423 --> 00:53:35.893 So a, a, an in-service within a school or, or an ed camp within a school district. 00:53:36.403 --> 00:53:38.383 Um, this could quickly. 00:53:40.018 --> 00:53:45.778 Be able to support that, it would be able to support that and, and people could quickly determine where they need to go. 00:53:46.078 --> 00:53:49.108 You can set limits on how many seats are available. 00:53:49.108 --> 00:53:56.698 So if you, if you got some limiting factors for how many people can fit in a room or something like that, you can, you can set that. 00:53:56.908 --> 00:54:00.628 So there, and it's very, very simple. 00:54:00.628 --> 00:54:02.998 It's designed to be used by teachers. 00:54:05.818 --> 00:54:06.178 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:54:06.328 --> 00:54:06.778 And yeah. 00:54:07.978 --> 00:54:21.778 And so you don't have to like have everything figured out beforehand as the other thing, like you sometimes when you're, when you're like creating something in an LMS for example, you gotta have a whole bunch of stuff in there. 00:54:21.778 --> 00:54:29.398 And with this you just don't, you just don't need that and you can be started just in almost no time. 00:54:30.088 --> 00:54:30.178 Mm-hmm. 00:54:30.808 --> 00:54:34.288 For our teachers, they would put in a short description. 00:54:36.103 --> 00:54:37.273 That was all they had to do. 00:54:37.273 --> 00:54:39.193 And they did that on Monday. 00:54:39.193 --> 00:54:41.683 We opened it for the kids on Tuesday, on Monday. 00:54:41.683 --> 00:54:45.223 At the same time, they would say, who has to be in my particular group? 00:54:45.613 --> 00:54:50.143 And so they would preassign some kids, and those kids wouldn't have a choice, but everybody else would. 00:54:50.503 --> 00:54:54.313 And so then they take five minutes doing that. 00:54:54.673 --> 00:54:58.663 Then the students take five minutes signing up, and then you've got your groups ready to go. 00:54:58.813 --> 00:54:59.143 And it was. 00:54:59.863 --> 00:55:03.133 So fast and so simple way faster than anything else. 00:55:03.133 --> 00:55:13.873 We'd even come close to trying and, and that's what I love about this idea is like, if you need to make this group, like, then you got it and, and there you go. 00:55:14.023 --> 00:55:24.943 I mean, I, I just love the simplicity of it, that it can be that focused and that single use focus, that it's not something bigger or more, more challenging than that. 00:55:27.298 --> 00:55:27.538 Damon Hargraves: Yeah. 00:55:27.538 --> 00:55:39.478 So it's, it's just really good at creating a menu, creating a list of participants and allowing people to be assigned or to choose where they, where they want to go. 00:55:39.478 --> 00:55:40.438 And it's as simple as that. 00:55:41.848 --> 00:55:42.088 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:55:42.598 --> 00:55:42.868 Yeah. 00:55:43.018 --> 00:55:43.528 Good stuff. 00:55:43.618 --> 00:55:49.588 So, uh, we'll be developing that this year, um, working with a developer. 00:55:49.648 --> 00:55:49.888 Do. 00:55:53.353 --> 00:56:00.493 So far, the work we've seen so far is, you know, it's getting there and it's exciting to watch it and see what's happening. 00:56:00.493 --> 00:56:04.333 And, um, anything else you wanna add about that process? 00:56:06.253 --> 00:56:15.703 Damon Hargraves: Um, I just think that this is a, you know, a step towards, um, what you're talking about, which is where teachers in schools can start. 00:56:16.498 --> 00:56:18.838 Developing tools that work for them. 00:56:19.048 --> 00:56:21.148 You know, it's, it's an exciting opportunity there. 00:56:21.958 --> 00:56:33.898 But, and then, and then in the broader con concept as well, creating tools and using tools that actually work the way that you want to work with your students. 00:56:34.138 --> 00:56:40.198 And, and I just think our, our benchmark for that is, is too low. 00:56:40.258 --> 00:56:40.828 We. 00:56:41.968 --> 00:56:47.338 Don't demand enough from our software, we don't demand enough from our systems that we have in place. 00:56:47.908 --> 00:56:55.888 And, uh, for anybody out there listening, don't fall into the trap of fitting into a paradigm that really wasn't designed for your school. 00:56:58.468 --> 00:57:00.028 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, that's great. 00:57:00.028 --> 00:57:01.948 I think that's a great way to, uh, to state this. 00:57:02.008 --> 00:57:04.918 If you to end this, if you've been listening. 00:57:05.293 --> 00:57:09.883 Um, this, uh, if you're listening later, you probably heard this on Transformative principle. 00:57:10.273 --> 00:57:15.163 Uh, there is a link in the show notes to the tweet where I pick a bunch of notes and talked about things. 00:57:15.163 --> 00:57:19.813 And if you wanna reach out to me or Damon, then uh, we're happy to chat with you more about it. 00:57:19.813 --> 00:57:25.633 And if you're developing some software yourself for your school, we want to hear about that too. 00:57:25.633 --> 00:57:32.533 So reach out to us and let us know because, um, we, we want to see the cool things that people are doing. 00:57:32.623 --> 00:57:34.753 Any final words before you sign off, Damon? 00:57:36.043 --> 00:57:36.853 Damon Hargraves: I think we said it all. 00:57:36.853 --> 00:57:38.413 Jethro, thanks for having me buddy. 00:57:40.063 --> 00:57:40.783 Jethro D. Jones: Man, my pleasure. 00:57:40.783 --> 00:57:42.643 I I just love doing these with you. 00:57:42.643 --> 00:57:43.693 We need to do 'em more often. 00:57:43.693 --> 00:57:55.303 And, and we're going to, we're gonna, we're gonna live broadcast our development of this tool as it goes on over the next, uh, several months and hope you continue following along. 00:57:55.303 --> 00:57:56.953 And Damon, always a pleasure. 00:57:56.953 --> 00:57:57.703 Thank you so much. 00:57:58.603 --> 00:57:59.233 Damon Hargraves: Thanks, Jethro.