WEBVTT 00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:04.257 I'm probably get myself a lot of trouble here. Preaching like that tends to 00:00:04.257 --> 00:00:08.057 elevate the preacher more than it elevates the text. 00:00:11.917 --> 00:00:17.517 Welcome to the Uncut Podcast. I'm Pastor Luke. I'm Pastor Cameron. 00:00:17.897 --> 00:00:22.777 And this is the Uncut Podcast where we have uncut and honest conversations about 00:00:22.777 --> 00:00:25.717 faith, life, and ministry. 00:00:27.037 --> 00:00:32.517 Today, we find ourselves back in the podcast studio. 00:00:32.717 --> 00:00:37.077 Yeah, we took the green screen down that had us out on a porch in the wilderness 00:00:37.077 --> 00:00:39.937 last week or no, not last week, two weeks ago. 00:00:41.557 --> 00:00:48.197 Yeah, we haven't been in here in three weeks to record an episode. 00:00:51.317 --> 00:00:55.797 And last Monday, we didn't have an episode. 00:00:56.197 --> 00:01:02.757 No, we didn't. First time we missed a Monday in a while. 42 weeks or something like that. 00:01:03.077 --> 00:01:09.737 So, yeah. But all year, we had kind of committed to not doing, 00:01:10.994 --> 00:01:14.674 An episode and then waiting three or four weeks and doing an episode and then 00:01:14.674 --> 00:01:18.654 waiting six weeks and doing an episode we wanted to make sure that we Got as 00:01:18.654 --> 00:01:23.374 much content out there on a regular and consistent basis as we could so, 00:01:25.254 --> 00:01:32.634 um, but I was out of I was out of the country I was on vacation and um You were just busy. 00:01:32.834 --> 00:01:37.174 I was busy. Yeah, so I didn't want to I couldn't I didn't try super hard, 00:01:37.354 --> 00:01:41.694 but um, it was a weird staff week here I didn't really have anyone else to pull 00:01:41.694 --> 00:01:47.534 in for the podcast by the time I was ready to do it on you know on Thursday and, 00:01:49.014 --> 00:01:53.514 and I didn't want to do a monologue Don't just stare awkward. 00:01:53.694 --> 00:01:56.314 I didn't feel like it. You know, I mean like like obviously there's time and 00:01:56.314 --> 00:02:00.234 place for that I know you you know, the rooted podcasts works well and that 00:02:00.234 --> 00:02:06.894 type of format but Yeah, I just by the time Thursday came around last week I 00:02:06.894 --> 00:02:08.214 wasn't feeling it so yeah, 00:02:09.934 --> 00:02:15.554 So we just let it sit, but anyway, we're back and it's good to be back in this format. 00:02:18.274 --> 00:02:24.314 And for the last couple of, I think it's gonna be like six, seven weeks now, 00:02:24.374 --> 00:02:26.094 we've been preaching through the Book of Romans, 00:02:28.474 --> 00:02:33.774 and also teaching Wednesday night Bible study class through the Book of Romans, 00:02:33.874 --> 00:02:34.994 kind of as a parallel guide. 00:02:38.254 --> 00:02:43.494 And it's been, I think it's been really good. It's been good for the people 00:02:43.494 --> 00:02:46.954 here at Conduit, at least I hope and pray that that's the case. 00:02:48.714 --> 00:02:53.774 But also just been really good for me. Yeah, it's been, well, 00:02:53.814 --> 00:02:59.014 cause it's been really, we've like, we shifted a little bit when we started this series. 00:02:59.034 --> 00:03:04.854 We decided we were gonna slow down a little bit more in our preaching and how 00:03:04.854 --> 00:03:11.034 big of a chunk we committed ourselves to preaching through each week and things like that. 00:03:11.234 --> 00:03:13.634 And so... Yeah. 00:03:14.094 --> 00:03:21.454 I feel like it, you know, we create the schedules and I think we think sometimes 00:03:21.454 --> 00:03:27.474 that the schedules make it easier, but in some ways it can, 00:03:27.814 --> 00:03:30.854 at least in cases like when you're preaching through Romans or a book that's 00:03:30.854 --> 00:03:33.974 really rich or deep or long or whatever, 00:03:34.934 --> 00:03:39.194 and actually the schedule can be somewhat restrictive for you. 00:03:39.894 --> 00:03:43.594 Yeah, well, and you know, it always kind of. 00:03:44.438 --> 00:03:50.058 I don't know, there's benefits to preaching bigger chunks and going through 00:03:50.058 --> 00:03:55.238 things faster, and then there's benefits to slowing down, doing smaller chunks. 00:03:56.558 --> 00:03:58.998 I feel like Romans is that book. 00:04:02.318 --> 00:04:05.578 Inside of like pastor jokes and memes. 00:04:06.638 --> 00:04:12.718 If a pastor's gonna, oh, I'm gonna do my sermon series on Romans for the next five years, right? 00:04:12.758 --> 00:04:20.798 Yeah. That's kind of ironic joke, but it's also kind of reality. 00:04:21.098 --> 00:04:26.198 I know churches that have spent literally one to two years preaching through 00:04:26.198 --> 00:04:31.518 the Book of Romans because the pastor preaches two verses at a time. 00:04:32.918 --> 00:04:37.498 And that's got its own... I don't want to say that that doesn't have value or 00:04:37.498 --> 00:04:39.098 anything like that. It obviously does. 00:04:40.758 --> 00:04:45.078 A lot of the preachers that people kind of like, 00:04:45.958 --> 00:04:50.998 idolize in the years bygone preached really small chunks, 00:04:51.298 --> 00:04:58.018 like Spurgeon would do one or two verses or half a verse or something like that, 00:04:58.058 --> 00:05:01.998 but their preaching style was also not really exegetical. 00:05:02.238 --> 00:05:06.218 Was it Martin Lloyd Jones that preached like 400 sermons or something like that 00:05:06.218 --> 00:05:11.358 through Romans? That wouldn't surprise me Something's like super ridiculous 00:05:11.358 --> 00:05:13.778 like that. It was like in the 400s or something. 00:05:13.998 --> 00:05:19.858 Yeah, appreciate for like 16 years Yeah, so it's kind of a joke to kind of do 00:05:19.858 --> 00:05:28.158 that but like there's also a reason for it, you know to like slow down and Work through, 00:05:29.778 --> 00:05:33.818 Ideas and kind of get through them and a little make sure you squeeze everything 00:05:33.818 --> 00:05:37.478 out of it that you possibly can And I don't know, sometimes for me it feels 00:05:37.478 --> 00:05:39.378 like though that there is. 00:05:41.693 --> 00:05:50.673 Um, there is a point where preaching like that, I'm probably get myself a lot of trouble here. 00:05:50.813 --> 00:05:54.133 And, you know, I think I agree with you and the other preachers are listening. 00:05:54.273 --> 00:06:01.993 I think preaching like that tends to elevate the preacher more than it elevates the text, 00:06:02.593 --> 00:06:09.353 you know, because it's like, watch how I can preach an entire sermon or two 00:06:09.353 --> 00:06:12.793 or three sermons out of this one verse, 00:06:13.573 --> 00:06:20.613 or watch me preach one whole sermon out of this one verse, because, 00:06:21.373 --> 00:06:29.473 sometimes one verse is really kind of inconsequential to the whole of the argument 00:06:29.473 --> 00:06:32.933 that's being made in the larger chunk of the passage, 00:06:33.033 --> 00:06:37.893 and it's not necessary to preach a whole sermon out of one verse, like, 00:06:39.453 --> 00:06:44.033 you know, we're, by the time this episode goes live, we'd be essentially through 00:06:44.033 --> 00:06:46.373 the fifth chapter of Romans. 00:06:47.113 --> 00:06:50.893 We taught on Romans five last night at Bible study. 00:06:52.913 --> 00:06:57.833 And if you were to look at, like a chapter, like chapter five in Romans, 00:06:58.173 --> 00:07:02.233 you could probably preach quite a few sermons out of something like that. Yeah. 00:07:02.413 --> 00:07:08.893 But like Romans chapter 4 is essentially one big argument. 00:07:10.053 --> 00:07:18.753 It's not like, there's not several points, there's not even really any really 00:07:18.753 --> 00:07:23.253 good exit ramps into anything else. 00:07:23.653 --> 00:07:29.013 No. It's one singular point that he summarizes at the end about Abraham being 00:07:29.013 --> 00:07:35.073 justified by faith and he kind of uses Abraham as his own little personal proof 00:07:35.073 --> 00:07:39.393 text for the idea that righteousness is from faith, 00:07:39.593 --> 00:07:44.933 not by works or not by adherence to the law or not by anything other than faith. 00:07:48.931 --> 00:07:56.671 To take a verse and to make multiple sermons out of it, when there's whole chapters 00:07:56.671 --> 00:08:01.051 that are one sermon or less. 00:08:01.991 --> 00:08:08.291 I think for me, sometimes what it feels like is like, you just want your people 00:08:08.291 --> 00:08:09.971 to know how smart you are, 00:08:10.611 --> 00:08:15.171 or you just want like, I don't know, sometimes it just rubs me the wrong way. 00:08:15.171 --> 00:08:17.091 Well, I get what you're saying. 00:08:17.211 --> 00:08:23.751 It's interesting the way you...the reason I don't love what some people call...so, 00:08:24.171 --> 00:08:30.171 sometimes I've encountered...will encounter people who say, oh, 00:08:30.311 --> 00:08:34.631 like...and this could be, like, if someone were to come to our church, 00:08:34.711 --> 00:08:36.431 I think, listen to the majority of our preaching, 00:08:37.031 --> 00:08:40.371 somebody could be critical of us in this way, and I'd actually be kind of happy 00:08:40.371 --> 00:08:42.111 that they're critical of us like this. 00:08:42.291 --> 00:08:46.671 But some people say, well, I go to a real church where we preach the Bible and 00:08:46.671 --> 00:08:49.951 our preacher, he preaches it verse by verse. 00:08:50.431 --> 00:08:58.991 And what they usually mean by that is the pastor kind of slogs through an overly 00:08:58.991 --> 00:09:05.351 detailed Bible study, not a sermon, and he goes a handful of verses at a time. 00:09:06.251 --> 00:09:10.511 And one of the reasons I don't particularly love that style of preaching is 00:09:10.511 --> 00:09:16.651 because it loses, it focuses, you have the danger of focusing so much on the 00:09:16.651 --> 00:09:18.771 tree that you lose the forest. 00:09:20.811 --> 00:09:24.191 And I'll point this out to people all the, not all the time, 00:09:24.251 --> 00:09:25.871 but I try to point it out regularly. 00:09:25.971 --> 00:09:29.891 I know I've done it in that Wednesday night class, and I've done it, um... 00:09:30.512 --> 00:09:39.112 In the pulpit at times, where if we are so zeroed in on one particular idea 00:09:39.112 --> 00:09:41.312 or subject or paragraph, 00:09:41.992 --> 00:09:46.712 and this happens a fair amount inside of our Bibles, because our Bibles are 00:09:46.712 --> 00:09:50.012 broken up somewhat artificially by chapters. 00:09:50.492 --> 00:09:53.732 So, like, we have these chapter divisions that weren't original to the text, 00:09:53.832 --> 00:09:58.212 that somebody... I'm not saying chapter divisions are bad, not saying that, 00:09:58.212 --> 00:10:02.972 but they do create a division in the text that wasn't original to the author's intent. 00:10:04.512 --> 00:10:12.572 And so I think the last time I pointed this out was the end of chapter 1 of Romans. 00:10:12.932 --> 00:10:18.672 It gets really into this list of sin, really is talking a lot about homosexual 00:10:18.672 --> 00:10:22.232 sin and things like that. It's really just driving at that. 00:10:23.292 --> 00:10:28.492 And if you were to preach that text in a really broken -up, segmented manner, 00:10:28.752 --> 00:10:34.552 it'd be really easy to go real hard right there, and then forget what's coming 00:10:34.552 --> 00:10:36.652 in the very next verse in chapter two. 00:10:38.752 --> 00:10:43.972 Judge... Judge not, essentially. Because you do the same thing too, you stand on... 00:10:43.972 --> 00:10:48.152 So, and I made that point in, I think, our Wednesday night class, 00:10:48.172 --> 00:10:53.312 I said, it would be really easy for me to look at the examples that Paul are 00:10:53.312 --> 00:10:58.352 using to typify Gentile sin here, and go all finger -wagging, 00:10:58.952 --> 00:11:03.872 but that's if I only ignore the very next couple of verses that are meant to 00:11:03.872 --> 00:11:06.692 also humble me as I preach this. 00:11:07.012 --> 00:11:13.052 And so, it's things like that where I think if we're overly, like... 00:11:14.101 --> 00:11:20.501 Set into this kind of very segmented piece by piece place, we could potentially 00:11:20.501 --> 00:11:22.161 miss the larger picture. 00:11:22.501 --> 00:11:25.121 And I think some people do miss that larger picture. 00:11:27.921 --> 00:11:33.981 Yeah, it's, and you thought you knew what I was gonna say, that I thought I 00:11:33.981 --> 00:11:35.221 knew what you were gonna say. Oh. 00:11:37.101 --> 00:11:42.961 And then so I, but I think this is essentially what you are saying is that we 00:11:42.961 --> 00:11:46.861 don't... I don't even say we don't preach verse by verse because, 00:11:47.081 --> 00:11:49.441 or word by word, because sometimes it's necessary. 00:11:50.761 --> 00:11:58.401 Like you're preaching on Romans 5 this week, you could take the first six verses of Romans 5, 00:11:59.581 --> 00:12:04.261 suffering produces perseverance, and perseverance produces character, 00:12:04.481 --> 00:12:06.941 and character produces hope, and hope does not disappoint. 00:12:07.481 --> 00:12:12.521 That could be Oh, like a verse -by -verse, word -by -word sermon. 00:12:12.681 --> 00:12:19.761 Very easily, because that's what the text... The text kind of demands that you 00:12:19.761 --> 00:12:22.221 take that section of scripture like that. 00:12:22.341 --> 00:12:26.641 And that would be a good sermon, in my opinion. It would, but there is also 00:12:26.641 --> 00:12:32.661 whole chunks of scripture that have, and I think this is more typical to our 00:12:32.661 --> 00:12:37.141 style of preaching, is that we don't preach word -to -word, we preach idea -to -idea. 00:12:38.181 --> 00:12:42.141 That there is an idea or a premise or a... 00:12:43.221 --> 00:12:46.621 That... A larger argument. A larger argument, like, yeah, essentially what you said. 00:12:48.001 --> 00:12:52.561 It's being made in this chunk and then, okay, then it moves to this chunk and 00:12:52.561 --> 00:12:53.841 then it moves to this chunk. 00:12:54.241 --> 00:12:55.721 And sometimes that chunk is 00:12:55.721 --> 00:12:59.721 a sentence and sometimes it's a word and sometimes it's a whole chapter. 00:13:00.081 --> 00:13:02.941 It just... So my preference is to not... 00:13:03.902 --> 00:13:10.262 It's an unnecessarily slog through a portion of scripture simply to say, 00:13:10.342 --> 00:13:13.022 I preached this word for word for word, 00:13:13.722 --> 00:13:20.242 when it's not really necessary and it really only ends up elevating my own apprehension 00:13:20.242 --> 00:13:24.442 of the text, but doesn't really add any value to those who are listening. 00:13:25.082 --> 00:13:30.402 Wow. And it like, yeah, like over -referencing the Greek, well, 00:13:30.442 --> 00:13:33.482 in the Greek, this word means Well, you know what? No one cares. 00:13:34.822 --> 00:13:39.602 Literally, no one cares. Well, what's your thought about this? 00:13:39.622 --> 00:13:43.142 Other than no one cares, because I know that there are some people who don't 00:13:43.142 --> 00:13:44.462 care. There are some people who do care. 00:13:44.802 --> 00:13:51.042 But I was told by my preaching professors, and I think I agree generally with 00:13:51.042 --> 00:13:53.202 this principle, is like, if... 00:13:53.202 --> 00:13:56.782 Like, reference the Greek sparingly, or the Hebrew, 00:13:57.042 --> 00:14:05.162 because you don't wanna undermine the congregation's confidence in them being 00:14:05.162 --> 00:14:10.462 able to handle scriptures themselves without the Greek and Hebrew. 00:14:11.202 --> 00:14:20.962 Yeah, I mean, yeah, like I think that that does kind of. 00:14:22.262 --> 00:14:26.922 Yeah, you don't want to undermine there, but to me that seems a little patronizing. 00:14:27.102 --> 00:14:31.202 It is a little patronizing. That's the reason why I sometimes do reference it. 00:14:31.462 --> 00:14:34.302 Yeah. Cause I'm like, I don't know. Like sometimes there is like a reason to 00:14:34.302 --> 00:14:37.002 call people out. People want to know stuff. 00:14:37.142 --> 00:14:42.302 Yeah. And it's not like, even when I started seminary or when I started undergrad, 00:14:42.522 --> 00:14:48.662 I was taking Greek classes, like there wasn't the type of resources that there 00:14:48.662 --> 00:14:51.562 is for the lay person that there is now. 00:14:51.942 --> 00:14:59.142 Like now I don't, I don't go back. I haven't had to maintain my Greek. 00:15:00.002 --> 00:15:05.262 I don't have to maintain my Greek recollection now. 00:15:07.782 --> 00:15:17.442 Because the tools that are available to me and to everyone online are so much better. 00:15:17.562 --> 00:15:20.202 Like I've only got so much bandwidth up here, you know? 00:15:20.382 --> 00:15:25.402 And like if I have an easy tool over here where I can reference and study the 00:15:25.402 --> 00:15:29.922 Greek, Then I'm not gonna memorize it cuz I don't need to I was never good at parsing. 00:15:30.222 --> 00:15:34.522 Yeah, I've got logos now I just hover over the word and it parses it for me, right? 00:15:34.642 --> 00:15:38.702 Yeah, exactly So it's not it doesn't become necessary. I you know, 00:15:38.702 --> 00:15:41.022 like do people need to know the Greek? 00:15:43.602 --> 00:15:48.702 Some people do well, I mean academics like I want to read I want to read a commentary 00:15:48.702 --> 00:15:51.322 by somebody who knows the Greek Yeah, 00:15:51.642 --> 00:16:03.242 you know, but here I guess for me the the problem the problem lies in how much definitive difference. 00:16:06.040 --> 00:16:11.780 Is at this point in Christian scholarship or New Testament scholarship in particular, 00:16:12.100 --> 00:16:16.260 how much definitive difference is knowing the Greek, 00:16:16.900 --> 00:16:23.920 making in the idea of the passage? 00:16:25.040 --> 00:16:31.080 It may make a difference in the way that you, the grammatical like function 00:16:31.080 --> 00:16:39.940 of the passage, It may make a difference in the literary function of the passage, 00:16:40.140 --> 00:16:46.120 but we're not seeing any Greek scholars now are like, well, thank goodness I know the Greek, 00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:53.540 because now I can tell you that all of Christendom has been seeing the passage like this, 00:16:53.740 --> 00:16:56.240 but I can tell you it should really be translated like this, 00:16:56.260 --> 00:17:01.520 and my translation dramatically affects the theological trajectory Of this whole book. 00:17:01.680 --> 00:17:06.200 Oh Cameron. There are people who are saying that well, I know but they're So 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:10.080 wrong I can think of one person who's saying that and they're wrong Right and 00:17:10.080 --> 00:17:13.420 like I don't know like yeah, they do say that but I don't know anyone that actually 00:17:13.420 --> 00:17:16.580 takes those people seriously Yeah, well you at least shouldn't, 00:17:17.780 --> 00:17:19.880 right and, 00:17:21.140 --> 00:17:26.760 and I read a Real or Instagram post the other day and I think I actually reposted 00:17:26.760 --> 00:17:31.560 it But like, it's not, like we are an over -educated. 00:17:33.020 --> 00:17:36.140 Christians are generally over -educated and under -obedient. 00:17:36.840 --> 00:17:38.660 Ooh, yeah. 00:17:40.360 --> 00:17:45.060 You know, like they know way more than they're actually willing to be obedient to. 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:47.080 Yes, yes. And so the issue is 00:17:47.080 --> 00:17:50.680 not that like, oh, we need to hear the Greek because we need to know more. 00:17:51.060 --> 00:17:54.920 No, the issue is, is you need to do what you know. 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:59.200 You're not under -educated, you're under -obedient. Under -obedient. 00:17:59.580 --> 00:18:04.300 Yeah. Yeah. How much of the last Bible study have you applied? Right. 00:18:05.760 --> 00:18:10.460 This was a sermon I heard forever ago from Matt Chandler, and it has always stuck with me. 00:18:10.540 --> 00:18:13.060 He was talking about this concept, and he described, he's like, 00:18:13.300 --> 00:18:15.560 there are too many spiritually obese Christians. 00:18:16.580 --> 00:18:22.140 Too many Christians who listen, and I'm one of them, like, listen to podcasts 00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:27.780 all the time, sermons, read so much, study so much, how much of that have you applied? 00:18:28.300 --> 00:18:34.980 You don't need to understand more of God's word. You need to obey more of God's word. 00:18:35.900 --> 00:18:38.320 I mean, no one wants to hear this, but it's a form of works. 00:18:38.940 --> 00:18:40.460 It's a form of works righteousness. 00:18:40.780 --> 00:18:44.660 Like I'm going to be better when I know more. Yeah. 00:18:45.700 --> 00:18:51.560 False. In fact, it often ends up being the opposite because in our quest to 00:18:51.560 --> 00:18:54.140 know more, we become calm puffed up with pride. 00:18:55.530 --> 00:19:02.610 Mm -hmm. And it actually ends up being something that we lean on rather than, 00:19:03.970 --> 00:19:08.150 rather than, you know, like seeking to be obedient. So. 00:19:08.850 --> 00:19:16.290 So you're saying, Cameron, that faith in Christ or faith of Christ in Romans. 00:19:18.070 --> 00:19:20.130 We shouldn't dig into that? 00:19:22.250 --> 00:19:24.550 Well, it depends on who you are. 00:19:26.810 --> 00:19:30.810 It depends on who you are. I think that's a detail in Romans we haven't talked 00:19:30.810 --> 00:19:34.790 about. We didn't talk about in the sermons or the... Because it is kind of a... 00:19:35.650 --> 00:19:38.290 At the end of the day, it kind of is a bit of a wash. 00:19:39.890 --> 00:19:45.730 Still imputed to us. Right. Or what I read a lot, and there's one particular 00:19:45.730 --> 00:19:50.930 commentary that I had to set down, because I'm like, this is not helping me. Really? 00:19:51.270 --> 00:19:54.130 Yeah. It was actually and it's this doesn't happen to me a lot, 00:19:54.250 --> 00:19:55.650 but it's actually NT Wright's commentary. 00:19:56.090 --> 00:19:59.870 Oh Interesting. Yeah, the new interpreters commentary. Mm -hmm, 00:19:59.950 --> 00:20:01.290 which is those big ones that I have. 00:20:01.410 --> 00:20:07.350 Yeah, they Romans one is written by NT right and I usually really appreciate his stuff, 00:20:10.310 --> 00:20:13.430 But like And I'm not here to argue with him. 00:20:13.530 --> 00:20:17.290 He's way smarter than I am Like, obviously, I'm not here to argue with him or 00:20:17.290 --> 00:20:20.130 anything. We're not here to argue, right? No, no. He publishes, like, more books. 00:20:21.210 --> 00:20:24.290 He publishes, like, five books while we're sleeping. Yeah, and he's probably, 00:20:24.290 --> 00:20:31.470 like, the most prolific Pauline scholar alive today. Yeah. One of them, at least. Yeah. 00:20:32.110 --> 00:20:36.370 And anyway, so, like, he, his, one of his main premises is, like, 00:20:36.390 --> 00:20:38.170 the righteousness that's talked about in. 00:20:43.513 --> 00:20:54.193 In Romans is more about a quest for God's justice, that righteousness in Romans 00:20:54.193 --> 00:20:56.833 is closely related to his justice. 00:20:58.633 --> 00:21:03.193 And the justice of making all things right and just. 00:21:05.213 --> 00:21:13.693 But it's such a nuanced view that it's not super clear You know, 00:21:13.793 --> 00:21:18.833 it's not, you have to do literary study, grammatical study, 00:21:19.493 --> 00:21:22.593 deep Greek study to come to that nuanced understanding. 00:21:23.433 --> 00:21:27.393 And so to take what he's saying in the commentary, which is not a super technical 00:21:27.393 --> 00:21:31.293 commentary either, to take what he's saying in the commentary as like a, 00:21:31.513 --> 00:21:34.493 oh, this is the way to understand Romans, and then to go to preach it, 00:21:35.373 --> 00:21:42.893 I would have to do so much nuancing of the, I know your English Bible's conduit 00:21:42.893 --> 00:21:45.933 says this, but this is what it actually is. 00:21:46.353 --> 00:21:51.093 And I know the flow of Paul's thought in your NIV looks like this, 00:21:51.133 --> 00:21:53.553 but this is actually what he's talking about over here. 00:21:54.253 --> 00:22:00.473 It does, I think, create practical problems for people as they're reading their Bible. 00:22:00.633 --> 00:22:05.753 It's like, well, I'm gonna just stop reading my Bible because obviously I don't understand any of it. 00:22:05.993 --> 00:22:09.273 I don't get it. Every week my pastor gets up there, he's telling me to scratch 00:22:09.273 --> 00:22:11.033 out one word and put another word in. 00:22:11.713 --> 00:22:16.993 So, I just don't find it particularly helpful, nor do I find that it makes a 00:22:16.993 --> 00:22:22.373 significant difference in the way that people, in the access that people have 00:22:22.373 --> 00:22:25.733 to the heart or the spirit of the passage. 00:22:27.013 --> 00:22:31.173 If there's something that really dramatically changes something, 00:22:32.353 --> 00:22:36.333 then yeah, I wanna bring it up and I wanna talk about it. 00:22:40.047 --> 00:22:46.787 But they're You know I'm not I'm not super eager to do that if that if it just 00:22:46.787 --> 00:22:50.907 is really like a distinction without a difference that just elevates My understanding 00:22:50.907 --> 00:22:52.687 of the text because I could read 00:22:52.687 --> 00:22:56.767 the Greek when they can't yeah It just doesn't make sense to me, right? 00:22:56.847 --> 00:23:03.707 Well in that gets to the the theological conviction of perspicuity of Scripture. 00:23:06.467 --> 00:23:10.007 Yeah perspicuity What's perspicuity, Pastor Luke? 00:23:10.547 --> 00:23:17.267 It's this belief that whatever... that the Bible, not all of the Bible is perfectly clear. 00:23:17.367 --> 00:23:26.147 There's passages that we read that are weird, passages that maybe we don't understand 00:23:26.147 --> 00:23:30.547 or we don't quite grasp or are kind of obscure, but... 00:23:30.547 --> 00:23:35.647 So the perspicuity of Scripture doesn't say that all of Scripture is clear. 00:23:35.647 --> 00:23:41.727 What it does say is that the primary and important elements of scripture are clear. 00:23:42.647 --> 00:23:50.187 Christ being divine, God being creator, God's redemption plan for humanity through 00:23:50.187 --> 00:23:55.367 faith in Christ, like, those things, pretty clear. 00:23:57.587 --> 00:24:01.527 Whether or not it's Arminian or Calvinism, not so much. 00:24:02.007 --> 00:24:06.127 Pre -post -A -Millenniism. Oh, yes. you know, the end times. 00:24:06.647 --> 00:24:08.587 I just say glorious return at this point. 00:24:10.387 --> 00:24:14.327 The rapture, who is the Antichrist, who is the Antichrist by the way? 00:24:14.447 --> 00:24:17.827 Oh, he's this really random guy that lives in Oklahoma. 00:24:19.487 --> 00:24:20.607 Some people have said. 00:24:24.647 --> 00:24:25.667 Yeah, okay. 00:24:30.387 --> 00:24:34.007 What were we talking about? All of Romans. All of Romans. 00:24:34.427 --> 00:24:39.767 So anyway, like, you know, how you move through a passage of scripture, 00:24:40.407 --> 00:24:43.807 how you move through, how you form sermons, 00:24:44.567 --> 00:24:49.487 I don't know, like, I don't, it's interesting to me because it's easy for us 00:24:49.487 --> 00:24:53.487 to talk about these things like they're normal to everyone else in all of life. 00:24:55.167 --> 00:24:58.947 Yeah. You know, but it's not like, I don't know that everyone really thinks 00:24:58.947 --> 00:25:07.247 about how their pastors go about creating content for sermons or Bible studies 00:25:07.247 --> 00:25:09.367 or anything like that. I think there's just this assumption that. 00:25:10.466 --> 00:25:12.686 I don't know. I don't know what the assumption is. I don't know. 00:25:12.766 --> 00:25:16.026 I mean, everybody who's listening, if you're not in ministry or pastor, 00:25:16.146 --> 00:25:19.966 this is what at least I want to talk about at social parties when I'm done with 00:25:19.966 --> 00:25:22.966 small talk, and I don't want to have anything else to talk about. 00:25:23.046 --> 00:25:25.086 I just want to talk about nerdy Bible stuff. Yeah. 00:25:25.766 --> 00:25:31.686 Yeah. But yeah, I don't know that this is like, because I had a conversation. 00:25:31.966 --> 00:25:34.486 I don't know if I talked about this on the podcast or not. I had a conversation 00:25:34.486 --> 00:25:44.286 several months ago now with some people who were developing an AI sermon writing app. 00:25:44.906 --> 00:25:48.586 Now, that's not what they pitched it to me when I had the conversation with 00:25:48.586 --> 00:25:51.306 them, but as soon as I sat down with them, I was like, oh, this is like... That's what it is. 00:25:51.346 --> 00:25:56.266 That's what it is. It was chat GBT re -skinned and like being, 00:25:56.346 --> 00:25:59.806 you know, sold as like a way to write your sermons in it entirely. 00:26:00.506 --> 00:26:04.666 And I had some conversations with them, I was like, well, you know, 00:26:04.806 --> 00:26:07.386 like, you need to figure out if you're going to have a, like, 00:26:07.706 --> 00:26:11.986 inductive sermon or a deductive sermon, if you're going to follow this, 00:26:12.086 --> 00:26:14.646 a big idea model of preaching, or if you're going to follow, 00:26:14.766 --> 00:26:16.886 like, a question model of preaching, 00:26:17.246 --> 00:26:21.806 are you going to use, like, a story method, like, what are the methods of your preaching, 00:26:22.486 --> 00:26:26.146 like, having those kind of base outlines, and, you know, 00:26:26.586 --> 00:26:33.366 and I said, it's not enough to just say, like, to enter into a...even...this 00:26:33.366 --> 00:26:36.966 is, like, one of the problems with Google research, is it's not enough to just 00:26:36.966 --> 00:26:41.486 enter into Google, what does Romans 5 -7 mean? 00:26:42.646 --> 00:26:46.686 Because you're gonna get, like, you know, no one...like, what? 00:26:46.766 --> 00:26:50.006 Like, 90 % of people don't go past the first search page. 00:26:50.146 --> 00:26:53.886 And those first couple links are all gonna look the same. 00:26:54.366 --> 00:26:57.726 They're all to have these very popular understandings of it. 00:26:57.886 --> 00:26:59.706 There's not going to be a whole lot of back and forth. 00:27:00.006 --> 00:27:03.766 And the really hard thing about like AI, 00:27:04.366 --> 00:27:08.166 even for like the future of AI when we stop, because people are starting to 00:27:08.166 --> 00:27:12.586 stop using Google and they're starting to use chat, GBT and other AI bots, 00:27:13.166 --> 00:27:15.326 is you don't even get a list of results. 00:27:15.346 --> 00:27:17.706 You just get an answer, synthesized. 00:27:18.066 --> 00:27:23.506 But you don't know the argumentation behind the synthesization of that. 00:27:24.726 --> 00:27:29.206 Of that answer you got. So anyways, I was talking to them all about that, those complexities. 00:27:29.466 --> 00:27:33.166 I was like, well, you really do need multiple sources in order to understand, 00:27:33.646 --> 00:27:38.446 because if one person thinks the passage needs this, I need to understand why 00:27:38.446 --> 00:27:43.306 he thinks that, even if I end up disagreeing with him. I need that understanding. 00:27:43.806 --> 00:27:46.826 And they just sat there and looked at me and they said, wow, 00:27:46.866 --> 00:27:48.706 you take this very seriously. And I was like, 00:27:49.689 --> 00:27:52.909 Yeah. What kind of pastors have you been talking to? 00:27:53.089 --> 00:27:59.309 Who doesn't take it this seriously?" Which made me really concerned because I was like... 00:28:00.149 --> 00:28:01.769 Because I do know that there is... 00:28:03.569 --> 00:28:07.289 When I first... I don't... Maybe this would be an interesting question about 00:28:07.289 --> 00:28:09.789 your very first sermons, Cameron, but... Nope. 00:28:10.729 --> 00:28:15.369 ... When I started preaching, I hadn't gone to Bible college or anything yet. 00:28:15.369 --> 00:28:21.569 But I was just serving as like a youth guy, and I say youth guy because I wasn't officially anything. 00:28:21.709 --> 00:28:25.209 I was just, I wasn't on staff or anything, so I was like the youth leader, 00:28:25.409 --> 00:28:28.629 but I was a volunteer, so I was the youth guy is what I called myself. 00:28:30.729 --> 00:28:35.489 I was just listening to sermons and just trying to mimic what they did. 00:28:36.189 --> 00:28:39.889 And I was like reading my Bible. I don't know that I was consulting. 00:28:40.089 --> 00:28:42.509 I don't really remember consulting very many commentaries. 00:28:43.549 --> 00:28:49.129 I was, you know, I had some very basic Bible study skills. I could, 00:28:49.189 --> 00:28:51.129 like, look at a concordance and stuff. 00:28:53.009 --> 00:28:56.489 But I kind of just hodgepodged it together, and by God's grace, 00:28:56.589 --> 00:28:57.849 I think it bore some fruit. 00:28:58.329 --> 00:29:02.369 And also by God's grace, none of those were recorded for posterity, 00:29:03.229 --> 00:29:05.409 because I'm pretty sure they were pretty abysmal. 00:29:05.629 --> 00:29:09.689 But I think some people never move past that type of preaching, 00:29:10.509 --> 00:29:12.389 of just kind of hodgepodging it together. 00:29:13.889 --> 00:29:16.829 I don't know. What was your, what were your early preaching? 00:29:17.209 --> 00:29:20.189 Oh my gosh. What was that like? Do you know how old I was? 00:29:24.869 --> 00:29:26.489 I preached my first sermon. 00:29:29.299 --> 00:29:37.379 27 years ago How old were you 14 you were 14 was 14, yeah, I think I was at 00:29:37.379 --> 00:29:39.799 least 19 or 20. Yeah, I was 14, 00:29:43.299 --> 00:29:52.399 I God bless my pastor I was 14 years old. Uh -huh. Is it my home church? 00:29:53.259 --> 00:29:59.419 I was so short like physically This is my stature, 00:30:01.359 --> 00:30:06.059 I was I had to get one of those little small kitty chairs from the nursery and 00:30:06.059 --> 00:30:10.519 I stepped up onto it So I could be seen from behind the pulpit everyone laughed. 00:30:10.679 --> 00:30:16.659 I remember that There is a recording of it out there somewhere I don't know 00:30:16.659 --> 00:30:21.479 that I have it or that it was ever saved but it was that Yeah, probably, 00:30:23.579 --> 00:30:28.519 And it was I don't remember what it was what I preached on. 00:30:28.999 --> 00:30:35.599 I do remember that every year, there was a youth group Sunday where the youth 00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:37.139 group did the whole service. 00:30:37.299 --> 00:30:40.499 They led the worship, they did the readings, they did the preaching, or whatever. 00:30:44.179 --> 00:30:50.559 And it was, I don't know if I volunteered to preach or if I was voluntold to 00:30:50.559 --> 00:30:59.119 preach or not, but I think it was for, you know, I don't really remember a whole lot, 00:30:59.419 --> 00:31:05.419 but it was, I think it was clear at that point that God had a calling on my 00:31:05.419 --> 00:31:09.039 life to preach, and so I got to preach when I was 14. 00:31:10.579 --> 00:31:21.139 And then I preached about once a year after that, until I, really until I was 00:31:21.139 --> 00:31:24.359 into college and actually studying to be a pastor and preacher. 00:31:24.359 --> 00:31:29.679 And then, actually by the time I got to college, I was preaching multiple times 00:31:29.679 --> 00:31:33.079 a year, and sometimes at even different churches. 00:31:34.139 --> 00:31:41.179 So 17, 18, 19, I was preaching at a couple different churches a couple times a year. 00:31:42.059 --> 00:31:47.619 And then, I would say that my first, 00:31:49.879 --> 00:31:55.219 well, Well, then in college, my... 00:32:00.218 --> 00:32:07.458 My junior year of college, I got a job as a discipleship, I think it was a director, 00:32:08.398 --> 00:32:12.878 but it was a discipleship pastor at a United Methodist Church on the west side 00:32:12.878 --> 00:32:20.678 of the city of Rochester, and got to preach there as a staff person, and then, 00:32:22.218 --> 00:32:25.878 and so I would preach whatever they were, and this was in the height of the 00:32:25.878 --> 00:32:26.678 purpose -driven movement. 00:32:27.378 --> 00:32:30.558 And they were... Oh, the purpose -driven church. Yes. The purpose -driven life. 00:32:30.638 --> 00:32:31.738 Yes. The purpose -driven family. 00:32:32.098 --> 00:32:36.098 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they were a purpose -driven church. It was a... 00:32:36.098 --> 00:32:38.818 Honestly, it was a great, great, great church. 00:32:39.178 --> 00:32:42.738 And the pastor there, Pastor Jeff Long, I think he's retired now, 00:32:43.018 --> 00:32:48.378 but was, man, such an awesome guy and loved me and discipled me and gave me 00:32:48.378 --> 00:32:53.658 so many opportunities that I had not earned or deserved and really appreciate him. 00:32:53.658 --> 00:33:00.298 And so I preached in there about some discipleship stuff and some evangelism things. 00:33:02.178 --> 00:33:11.558 And then I do remember when I got my, when I was appointed to my first church as pastor. 00:33:12.298 --> 00:33:17.018 This would have been, Sherry and I had been married less than a year at that point. 00:33:17.498 --> 00:33:22.558 And I was in seminary and living in a small apartment above a garage. 00:33:22.558 --> 00:33:26.458 I was working construction, make ends meet, going to seminary, 00:33:26.538 --> 00:33:31.198 got called to pastor my first church, a little church out on the lake here in DeWittville. 00:33:31.838 --> 00:33:41.258 I was 22 years old, 22 years old, and this is a church of maybe 22 people, 00:33:42.018 --> 00:33:44.178 you know? It was pretty small. 00:33:46.478 --> 00:33:54.758 And I think the person closest in age to Sherry and I was 40 years older than us. 00:33:55.598 --> 00:34:03.578 It was so crazy, but I do remember my first couple, I do remember outside of 00:34:03.578 --> 00:34:08.558 my first introductory sermon, which is really just about the story of my calling, 00:34:09.358 --> 00:34:17.398 was I preached a two or three week series on the Lord's Prayer, and I do still have that. 00:34:19.218 --> 00:34:26.358 In fact, I have it upstairs in my office on a VHS. Oh, wow. 00:34:27.438 --> 00:34:33.898 So, we could probably, if we could ever find a VCR, we should bust that out and not watch it. 00:34:35.998 --> 00:34:41.178 I'm sure it was... This sounds like a staff activity to me. I'm sure it was 00:34:41.178 --> 00:34:47.238 just... I can probably pull up an old one of mine, too. miserable, horrible, but anyway. 00:34:51.217 --> 00:34:54.537 What was the original question? I guess I was just... I was just reminiscing there. 00:34:56.957 --> 00:35:02.177 Oh, no, I was mostly just kind of like, what was your... Because I remember 00:35:02.177 --> 00:35:05.037 starting to preach and I had no idea what I was doing. 00:35:05.397 --> 00:35:09.437 Like I was just... I was kind of like monkey see, monkey do. 00:35:09.577 --> 00:35:13.517 You could tell if I had listened to... You could tell which preacher I'd listened 00:35:13.517 --> 00:35:20.217 to that week based on how I had preached. Like, and I was preaching to youth. 00:35:20.357 --> 00:35:23.517 I started out with running a weekly youth ministry at my church, 00:35:23.577 --> 00:35:30.057 and that was like a really fun time of ministry and really appreciative of all of that. 00:35:30.137 --> 00:35:34.477 And then I think I went into college, and in my first ministry I was assigned 00:35:34.477 --> 00:35:40.597 in college was doing Sunday service at a retirement home, and I alternated preaching with another guy. 00:35:40.857 --> 00:35:44.517 And so... What a great way to start ministry, honestly, that's... 00:35:44.517 --> 00:35:45.617 It was really good. Yeah. 00:35:45.957 --> 00:35:52.777 And they were very sweet, and they were very kind, and they also challenged me. 00:35:53.177 --> 00:35:58.257 They would tell us when... And it was a jarring thing for me from going to teaching 00:35:58.257 --> 00:36:03.177 youth, high schoolers, to teaching people who were facing down death. 00:36:03.897 --> 00:36:06.377 And who had been Christians longer than you'd been alive. Exactly. 00:36:06.737 --> 00:36:11.117 And so I learned a lot through that experience. 00:36:11.857 --> 00:36:16.297 But I also definitely stuck my foot in my mouth more times than not, 00:36:16.397 --> 00:36:22.537 and I'm sure that if I were able to look back, if those had been recorded, 00:36:22.657 --> 00:36:25.857 I would maybe cringe at how... 00:36:25.857 --> 00:36:32.517 Not just the unpolishedness of it sometimes, but even my own character flaws 00:36:32.517 --> 00:36:36.917 that come through, and that's... I mean, that's just preaching in general. 00:36:37.197 --> 00:36:40.157 But I just was kind of like... I was just kind of thinking, like, 00:36:40.377 --> 00:36:44.037 you know, the way I began when I started preaching, was I kind of just... 00:36:45.243 --> 00:36:50.063 Just did it. I didn't know what I was doing. And I think that was typical of 00:36:50.063 --> 00:36:51.783 what I just thought preaching was. 00:36:52.643 --> 00:36:55.723 And did you have a similar experience? Or did someone ever like sit down and 00:36:55.723 --> 00:36:59.743 say, Cameron, like you need to like kind of figure out this is how you're going to structure it? 00:37:00.143 --> 00:37:02.303 No. No. No. Yeah, it was the same. 00:37:06.263 --> 00:37:12.283 And quite honestly, I didn't pay enough attention in my actual preaching classes 00:37:12.283 --> 00:37:19.303 for it to, for even to get, for that to even to take root and like, 00:37:19.383 --> 00:37:21.103 no, here's actually how like you should. 00:37:23.683 --> 00:37:28.363 Yeah, I wasn't a particularly conscientious or diligent student. 00:37:28.703 --> 00:37:30.943 I was a good student when I applied myself. 00:37:31.363 --> 00:37:35.563 And I, it wasn't that I'm like a theological Neanderthal. 00:37:36.023 --> 00:37:39.243 No, you're not. It was just that I didn't care. 00:37:39.383 --> 00:37:41.763 Right. I said, I don't care about this. Like, I just wanna go, 00:37:41.903 --> 00:37:44.923 can I just go do it? Like, I have, let me just go do it. 00:37:48.243 --> 00:37:51.863 And I will say that like most of, 00:37:53.983 --> 00:37:58.563 I say this with no, like zero, I hope you hear me and know my heart in this, 00:37:58.703 --> 00:38:04.583 like zero pride, zero anything other than this is just how we have always experienced it, 00:38:05.143 --> 00:38:12.183 is that from even from like as early as I can remember the Sunday school class 00:38:12.183 --> 00:38:14.363 that I've talked about a lot lately, 00:38:15.203 --> 00:38:17.823 but my Sunday school teacher in junior and senior high, 00:38:19.663 --> 00:38:26.003 like I, for whatever reason, for the reason I just believe God had a call on 00:38:26.003 --> 00:38:28.463 my life, is that when I look at scripture, 00:38:31.303 --> 00:38:35.223 or when I think about faith, or when I think about theological points, 00:38:36.003 --> 00:38:40.063 it just makes sense to me. 00:38:41.843 --> 00:38:56.323 And I can kind of like see and like feel how this scripture or this theology 00:38:56.323 --> 00:39:00.223 or this thing needs to be talked about, 00:39:00.883 --> 00:39:02.363 could be talked about. 00:39:06.403 --> 00:39:13.263 Now, that's always been a real blessing because it hasn't, it's never really, 00:39:13.503 --> 00:39:17.883 like, preaching is by far the easiest part of ministry. 00:39:18.843 --> 00:39:21.083 By far. Yeah. Like. 00:39:23.142 --> 00:39:26.542 Like, it's not even a question. I think you and I would both agree. 00:39:26.622 --> 00:39:31.922 The easiest part of being a pastor is preparing and preaching. 00:39:32.482 --> 00:39:36.682 It's time consuming, and you have to put in... It is work for sure. 00:39:36.942 --> 00:39:40.882 I think we're both also... I think uniquely, I think you and I are both gifted. 00:39:41.742 --> 00:39:46.342 I would say that's one of the things that you and I both... Strength we both 00:39:46.342 --> 00:39:49.262 share is in that area of ministry. country. 00:39:49.522 --> 00:39:53.482 I've seen other... I've seen big -name preachers who are not good at preaching. Right. 00:39:54.482 --> 00:40:00.442 It's just a struggle for them where they can... They are fantastic administratively, 00:40:01.342 --> 00:40:03.042 and I could have... I'm not. 00:40:03.882 --> 00:40:07.982 It goes back to the same issue that I had with school. I don't care. 00:40:09.622 --> 00:40:15.582 I'm forced to care, and I need to care, and I need to do a better job at it, 00:40:15.582 --> 00:40:18.102 but at the end of the day, I'm, 00:40:19.082 --> 00:40:22.382 Like, I wanna love people, I wanna disciple people, I wanna pray for people, 00:40:22.462 --> 00:40:25.082 I wanna counsel people, I wanna teach the word, I wanna preach the word. 00:40:25.302 --> 00:40:26.882 Leave me alone about all the other stuff. 00:40:29.202 --> 00:40:36.122 Can't do that, but suffice it to say, I think that the gifting in preaching 00:40:36.122 --> 00:40:43.602 has actually, obviously it's a gift and a blessing, but also does sometimes, 00:40:45.142 --> 00:40:51.482 when you are like, when you lean too heavily on the gift, you become lazy about the prep, 00:40:52.702 --> 00:40:59.422 and you can, like I could probably be 10 times better of a preacher than I am now, 00:41:00.182 --> 00:41:07.882 if I put more work and effort into it, if I developed more illustrations, 00:41:08.402 --> 00:41:13.362 if I developed my points a little bit better, if I worked on my, 00:41:14.302 --> 00:41:17.522 the delivery, the cleaning up my delivery, 00:41:18.702 --> 00:41:21.142 you know, my like cleaning up my language. 00:41:22.102 --> 00:41:28.222 I'm not cursing from the pulpit, but like, but those transition words, 00:41:28.322 --> 00:41:31.522 the ums, the ahs, the rights, you know, all that kind of stuff, 00:41:31.662 --> 00:41:34.822 the rights, the rights, man, you do it too. 00:41:35.022 --> 00:41:38.122 So I do too. I never did it until I came here. I blame that on you. 00:41:38.542 --> 00:41:42.142 You're welcome. Um, so. 00:41:44.505 --> 00:41:49.565 You know, I think sometimes the gifting can lead to a laziness and it takes 00:41:49.565 --> 00:41:58.325 an intentional effort to Get better when you started out Fairly good at something. 00:41:58.685 --> 00:42:01.325 Yeah I don't say that with any prize just the reality. No. 00:42:01.465 --> 00:42:08.085 Yeah, like And I get it, you know, it's we we you know that You know the same 00:42:08.085 --> 00:42:10.965 thing happens no matter what it is that you're gifted at right? 00:42:11.025 --> 00:42:12.945 Like it happens to kids who said right? 00:42:13.665 --> 00:42:21.225 Yeah, well, thank you Someone re listen to this podcast and do a who says right 00:42:21.225 --> 00:42:25.785 more often probably me maybe but. 00:42:27.045 --> 00:42:32.845 Saying oh like kids who play sports Mm -hmm, right the naturally play naturally 00:42:32.845 --> 00:42:38.225 gifted sports player will get pretty far until they kind of like stall out and 00:42:38.225 --> 00:42:41.805 like If they don't put in the work, they're not gonna get farther than that Yeah. 00:42:42.025 --> 00:42:46.505 And it's like that with anything that you are naturally gifted with. Yeah. 00:42:47.565 --> 00:42:53.785 How would, like, I... What would you say, Cameron? I don't know, 00:42:53.825 --> 00:42:54.885 I've been thinking about this. 00:42:54.965 --> 00:43:03.505 I've been thinking about, like, calls in the ministry and, you know, 00:43:03.565 --> 00:43:09.885 and kind of wondering, like, are there people around us who are called in the ministry, 00:43:10.625 --> 00:43:13.885 and, you know, do we need to be issuing, 00:43:14.925 --> 00:43:21.105 like, you know, I don't know, we don't do, at least I don't think we've ever 00:43:21.105 --> 00:43:24.505 done a sermon here that I know of, well, I've been here at least, 00:43:24.585 --> 00:43:27.545 that's been like a direct call in the ministry. 00:43:27.685 --> 00:43:31.405 I know that that used to be like a type of sermon that pastors and churches 00:43:31.405 --> 00:43:33.265 would preach on occasion. 00:43:33.905 --> 00:43:39.845 There's not really a...I guess there's probably texts out there that you could 00:43:39.845 --> 00:43:45.665 use for that, but there's not like a text that in itself is a call to ministry 00:43:45.665 --> 00:43:47.985 necessarily. Yeah, no, I can think of like... 00:43:50.134 --> 00:43:56.874 Paul's words to Timothy about fanning the flame of the gift that was in you, 00:43:56.974 --> 00:43:58.854 have people lay their hands on you and pray for you. 00:44:00.154 --> 00:44:05.714 But yeah, I don't know. But to answer your question, yeah, I think we should. 00:44:07.994 --> 00:44:12.814 Even if we're not doing it from the stage or from the pulpit in a public way, 00:44:13.134 --> 00:44:19.314 we probably we should be more cognizant, aware, looking for, 00:44:19.474 --> 00:44:28.054 raising up, calling out of the congregation, those who we believe have been called to ministry, 00:44:28.574 --> 00:44:30.274 or have a calling in ministry. 00:44:30.894 --> 00:44:34.214 How does someone know? Like, what are your, like... Oh, boy. 00:44:34.994 --> 00:44:38.154 Maybe that's a podcast episode. Yeah, wow. 00:44:39.014 --> 00:44:40.494 How does someone know? 00:44:45.074 --> 00:44:46.714 That's a really good question. 00:44:53.074 --> 00:44:59.214 I feel like the cliche answer. I don't know I kind of I like and I don't like 00:44:59.214 --> 00:45:02.794 this answer because it gets at something that's true but it also I think it 00:45:02.794 --> 00:45:05.574 I think it unnecessary. I don't know. 00:45:05.814 --> 00:45:11.054 The answer I've always heard, and I think it goes way, way back. 00:45:11.114 --> 00:45:15.574 I don't know who the first person was that said it, but if you can do anything else, go do that. 00:45:15.714 --> 00:45:19.274 But if you feel this unlike... I think I said that. 00:45:19.674 --> 00:45:23.674 Well, yeah, you've said that, but other people have said it before you, Cameron. 00:45:24.234 --> 00:45:26.394 Oh, okay. I think it's original to me, actually. Okay, yeah. 00:45:26.594 --> 00:45:28.054 All right, Cameron, all right. 00:45:28.234 --> 00:45:31.434 Well, no, because I got it from John Wesley, who essentially said, 00:45:31.434 --> 00:45:34.914 know, unless God raised you up for this very thing, you will be worn out by 00:45:34.914 --> 00:45:36.674 the schemes of men and devils. 00:45:36.954 --> 00:45:41.514 Yeah, yeah, and I think Spurgeon said something similar. Yeah, 00:45:41.514 --> 00:45:42.514 do something else, for sure. 00:45:43.014 --> 00:45:48.194 So, you know, this kind of like internal desire, but, you know, 00:45:48.254 --> 00:45:52.614 one of the things I don't particularly love about that is it doesn't call anybody, 00:45:53.514 --> 00:45:55.634 which is kind of counterintuitive. 00:45:55.774 --> 00:45:59.414 It's of following the model of Christ, like, you know, kind of this, 00:45:59.634 --> 00:46:01.854 you know, Christ was very... 00:46:03.902 --> 00:46:07.382 He was well known for saying things that made people turn away from him, 00:46:07.422 --> 00:46:10.802 right? Unless you eat of my flesh, you cannot have eternal life. 00:46:12.602 --> 00:46:16.662 But... Foxes have holes. Yeah, but the Son of Man had no place to lay his head. 00:46:16.822 --> 00:46:21.482 All these things that would make it unattractive to go into ministry or to follow Christ. 00:46:22.182 --> 00:46:25.082 And so I think there is some wisdom there, but at the same time, 00:46:25.122 --> 00:46:28.302 if that's the only thing we're ever saying, 00:46:29.022 --> 00:46:32.982 like, is anybody ever going to say yes to ministry or even think or consider, 00:46:33.102 --> 00:46:36.742 they're like, well, I mean, I'm not doing ministry now, so I suppose I should 00:46:36.742 --> 00:46:38.342 just keep doing that. You know what I mean? 00:46:43.742 --> 00:46:46.882 Yeah, I think we should do a whole podcast episode on this, 00:46:48.982 --> 00:46:56.002 because I feel like there can be a list of things. 00:46:56.642 --> 00:47:04.482 Here's how you may be discerning a call to ministry, and then similar, 00:47:04.962 --> 00:47:12.362 but in the same conversation, but different, is if you wanna get into ministry because of this, don't. 00:47:13.002 --> 00:47:19.742 Yeah, right, do something else, or do something adjacent, but not ministry. You don't. 00:47:22.042 --> 00:47:30.242 And then to talk about the difference in types of things of ministry within 00:47:30.242 --> 00:47:31.862 a church or within a ministry? 00:47:33.082 --> 00:47:37.722 Because you might say, well, I'm called to ministry, but I'm not called to be a pastor. 00:47:39.082 --> 00:47:43.062 Because usually what people think, I'm called to ministry. Well, you want to be a pastor? 00:47:43.682 --> 00:47:45.962 Like, no, I don't want to be a pastor, but I'm called into ministry. 00:47:46.182 --> 00:47:48.182 Well, what does that, what do you mean? 00:47:53.122 --> 00:47:57.542 And I would say in a real general way, 00:48:00.262 --> 00:48:06.122 that there is kind of the inverse of what we had already said, 00:48:06.792 --> 00:48:16.702 is that there is a undeniable and burning passion that this is your life's work. 00:48:18.542 --> 00:48:24.722 At least that's how I understand or have understood my calling in the past is 00:48:24.722 --> 00:48:30.402 that while there are other things that I could do, 00:48:31.542 --> 00:48:35.222 I could work at Home Depot, I could do X, Y, or Z. 00:48:35.382 --> 00:48:38.562 Cameron is always saying how he'd love to go organize the two -by -fours. 00:48:38.762 --> 00:48:40.082 Yes, they need organized. 00:48:44.022 --> 00:48:50.802 I could do this certain thing that there is. 00:48:54.949 --> 00:49:01.209 There's an undeniable and burning passion to serve the Lord through his church for me. 00:49:02.629 --> 00:49:12.689 And I know that unless the Lord dramatically changes my heart or my call or 00:49:12.689 --> 00:49:16.549 is like burning bush moment, then…, 00:49:17.269 --> 00:49:18.089 Cameron, Cameron. 00:49:18.169 --> 00:49:22.969 Yeah, right. Go organize the two by fours. Yeah, we'll organize the two by fours, 00:49:23.069 --> 00:49:29.569 that I will spend the rest of my natural life as a pastor, of some form. 00:49:32.589 --> 00:49:36.589 Sherry and I have even talked recently about like, so we've got, 00:49:36.889 --> 00:49:38.289 you know, like we save for retirement. 00:49:38.609 --> 00:49:44.909 Sure, good for you. Yeah, and I'm also like, why though? Why would I retire? 00:49:45.469 --> 00:49:51.169 Yeah. I have a really hard time with the concept of not doing things. Yeah. 00:49:51.809 --> 00:49:54.869 I say that after I just got back from vacation where I did nothing but write 00:49:54.869 --> 00:50:00.989 like I can't imagine being like, Oh, 67 all done now. 00:50:01.709 --> 00:50:05.989 All done. Gonna go play some golf. Yeah. Gonna go trim my lawn. 00:50:06.529 --> 00:50:11.029 And that's not to say like, I don't, I don't take any issue with people, 00:50:11.609 --> 00:50:14.229 pastors who are like, man, I did my time. 00:50:14.289 --> 00:50:16.649 Sure. I'm, I'm done. Yeah. I'm done. 00:50:17.389 --> 00:50:29.229 Um, no issue with that at all. I just don't feel like I'm in a place where I like I I don't know What? 00:50:30.669 --> 00:50:37.909 I don't know how I could do that and maybe retirement Will look like the ability 00:50:37.909 --> 00:50:43.889 to serve a church without the Complexities of being employed by it. 00:50:44.189 --> 00:50:49.589 Yeah, or or like having the church be burdened by having to pay me, right? 00:50:49.669 --> 00:50:56.849 Or serving a church in like a capacity that our Pastor Gordy does here, 00:50:57.509 --> 00:50:59.189 encourages the staff and the pastors, 00:50:59.989 --> 00:51:05.369 teaches a Bible study class or a Sunday school class, like involved in ministry 00:51:05.369 --> 00:51:07.389 and discipleship, loving the people. 00:51:08.689 --> 00:51:13.689 But I can see that, I can see coming alongside younger pastors, 00:51:14.289 --> 00:51:17.369 pastors who are just coming into ministry and just encouraging them and loving 00:51:17.369 --> 00:51:20.289 them and being a safe place for them to land. 00:51:22.149 --> 00:51:26.449 But being done with ministry just doesn't compute with me. 00:51:30.349 --> 00:51:35.349 But yeah, I think let's make this our next podcast episode. How do you know 00:51:35.349 --> 00:51:37.869 when you're called to ministry? What is ministry? 00:51:39.309 --> 00:51:42.449 Like how do you define ministry outside of what it means to be a pastor? 00:51:42.669 --> 00:51:43.929 What does it mean to be a pastor? 00:51:44.409 --> 00:51:48.149 Some of that we talk about kind of normally, But do you have any like? 00:51:49.386 --> 00:51:53.346 Immediate like how do I know I'm called? No, 00:51:53.546 --> 00:51:58.686 okay other not nothing other than what I think we've said, you know I you know, 00:51:58.686 --> 00:52:04.926 there's like the framework of internal call external call and yeah Communal affirmation. 00:52:05.066 --> 00:52:07.526 Yeah, I mean people are gonna tell you you're called you're not gonna believe 00:52:07.526 --> 00:52:10.346 them Then you're gonna start to believe it and you're gonna start to see gifts 00:52:10.346 --> 00:52:15.046 that align with the calling and when you use those gifts fruits gonna be produced 00:52:15.046 --> 00:52:18.346 and But I'll also be the first to say, 00:52:18.446 --> 00:52:22.486 I met a lot of people who their grandmother or their youth pastor said, 00:52:22.606 --> 00:52:24.366 oh, you'll make a great pastor, 00:52:24.706 --> 00:52:27.586 and went away to Bible college, they got halfway through Bible college, 00:52:27.646 --> 00:52:30.146 and they're like, I should not do this. 00:52:31.146 --> 00:52:37.606 Yeah. You know? And so it's a difficult discernment, so. Yeah. 00:52:38.646 --> 00:52:47.586 Yeah. So if you hear this and you've got any questions about callings to ministry 00:52:47.586 --> 00:52:54.386 or creative ways of being in ministry and not being a pastor or anything like that, 00:52:54.446 --> 00:53:00.526 drop us a comment when you hear this episode so we can include it as we record 00:53:00.526 --> 00:53:02.906 the next episode. Yeah. Yep. That would be great. 00:53:03.146 --> 00:53:05.826 And we did get a question in on our text line. 00:53:06.106 --> 00:53:08.246 Oh, yeah, we did. this past week. We did. 00:53:09.506 --> 00:53:14.686 Who is Cameron Linehart? Who is Pastor Cameron? Who is Pastor Cameron? 00:53:14.966 --> 00:53:17.546 Yeah. Who is Pastor Cameron? Yeah, well, I am Pastor Cameron. 00:53:18.406 --> 00:53:22.666 And my last name is Linehart, and I pastor at Conduit Ministries in Jamestown, 00:53:22.766 --> 00:53:26.426 New York, 120 Delaware Avenue, Jamestown, New York, 14701, 00:53:27.046 --> 00:53:30.046 www .conduitministries .org. 00:53:30.326 --> 00:53:31.866 I am not hard to find. 00:53:32.386 --> 00:53:37.466 Nope. We worship on Sunday mornings at 10 a .m., and you can also find us online 00:53:37.466 --> 00:53:41.986 with our services via Facebook or YouTube or on our website. So. 00:53:42.626 --> 00:53:48.166 Or Instagram, or you can just show up. You can, if you're in Western New York. Yep. 00:53:48.806 --> 00:53:52.706 So, who is Pastor Cameron? That is me. That is you. That is me. 00:53:52.986 --> 00:53:53.886 So that was the question. 00:53:54.266 --> 00:53:57.106 But seriously, if you do have a question you'd like us to address on the podcast 00:53:57.106 --> 00:54:05.186 or elsewhere, you can always text us, 716 -201 -0507. You can comment if you're 00:54:05.186 --> 00:54:07.646 on YouTube, watching this on YouTube. 00:54:07.906 --> 00:54:11.586 We have been able to interact with some of the comments on YouTube. 00:54:12.046 --> 00:54:18.266 Last couple of videos up on YouTube or episodes on YouTube got quite prolific in the comment section. 00:54:18.706 --> 00:54:22.786 Wish we had more time to really delve into those. Also wish we had more time 00:54:22.786 --> 00:54:24.926 to, I just want you to sit down with some of these people. 00:54:25.286 --> 00:54:31.546 Hug them, love them, hear them, spend time with them. Like, because the medium 00:54:31.546 --> 00:54:36.986 of like, communicating via comments section... It's very detached. 00:54:37.406 --> 00:54:40.066 So much to be missed there. 00:54:41.840 --> 00:55:07.007 Music.