WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.789 --> 00:00:06.320 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.340 --> 00:00:12.000 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.580 --> 00:00:14.559 I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host. 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:20.560 I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.099 --> 00:00:23.360 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:25.055 --> 00:00:26.335 Anke: Hello and welcome, Pilley. 00:00:26.335 --> 00:00:28.993 I always say it and I always mean it. 00:00:28.993 --> 00:00:31.060 I'm super excited to have you here. 00:00:31.060 --> 00:00:32.495 Pilley: Oh, Anke. 00:00:32.605 --> 00:00:34.435 I'm really thrilled to be here. 00:00:35.785 --> 00:00:40.945 Anke: Well, we have a really lovely juicy topic today, but before we 00:00:40.945 --> 00:00:44.405 get there, let people know where in this wonderful world are you 00:00:44.465 --> 00:00:46.215 and what's your business with dogs? 00:00:48.025 --> 00:00:52.965 Pilley: Oh, well, my business with dogs primarily is centered around one dog. 00:00:53.495 --> 00:00:58.785 Which is, uh, my father's dog, Chaser, who has the largest language 00:00:58.785 --> 00:01:00.755 learning of any animal in the world. 00:01:00.765 --> 00:01:03.415 She learned the names of over a thousand objects. 00:01:04.095 --> 00:01:08.085 And, uh, so she scientifically has the largest language learning. 00:01:08.500 --> 00:01:12.540 Um, of any dog and, and any man, animal, just because of the 00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:14.140 way she can put words together. 00:01:14.530 --> 00:01:18.980 So, I was part of her, I was one of her teachers. 00:01:19.290 --> 00:01:20.610 She was a family pet. 00:01:21.100 --> 00:01:26.630 I managed her and my father after their research went globally viral. 00:01:27.250 --> 00:01:30.660 And, um, That was in 2011. 00:01:30.670 --> 00:01:39.090 So I've written and, uh, produced and, um, presented on sort of every major network 00:01:39.090 --> 00:01:41.840 and in media outlets sort of globally. 00:01:41.960 --> 00:01:46.210 And, um, again, that was my father, John Pilley, and his dog, Chaser. 00:01:46.610 --> 00:01:53.195 So, um, I'm kind of continued to carry the torch because the methods that 00:01:53.195 --> 00:01:55.965 they used were kind of groundbreaking. 00:01:56.485 --> 00:02:01.235 Um, particularly, particularly as far as language learning and animal cognition. 00:02:01.505 --> 00:02:04.315 Um, and, but I'm his daughter, I'm John Pilley's daughter, 00:02:04.365 --> 00:02:09.555 Pilley Bianchi, and yeah, you can find me at, uh, PilleyBianchi. 00:02:09.605 --> 00:02:14.985 com on Facebook and Instagram and, uh, yeah, my website. 00:02:15.950 --> 00:02:16.450 Anke: Hmm. 00:02:16.510 --> 00:02:18.630 I don't even know where to start digging into this. 00:02:20.570 --> 00:02:21.720 Pilley: That was a mouthful. 00:02:22.300 --> 00:02:23.010 That was a mouthful. 00:02:23.010 --> 00:02:23.410 I know. 00:02:24.860 --> 00:02:28.780 Anke: But there's several, several kind of angles I would like to 00:02:28.780 --> 00:02:30.170 kind of dig in a little deeper. 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:36.680 Um, I mean, one thing I'm, you know, I'm, I'm a linguist and I'm nuts about 00:02:36.710 --> 00:02:41.390 language and I'm mostly interested about in, not so much the languages itself, 00:02:41.420 --> 00:02:46.985 but the method of teaching the process of learning and teaching language. 00:02:47.275 --> 00:02:54.635 So I'm like, super curious to start with, like, what even gave you the idea 00:02:54.695 --> 00:02:59.155 to teach this dog a bunch of words, you know, and how did you go about it? 00:02:59.155 --> 00:03:03.325 And, you know, when did you realize that Chaser wasn't like 00:03:03.325 --> 00:03:05.125 your everyday, regular dog? 00:03:06.110 --> 00:03:08.900 Pilley: Oh, well, there's a lot to unpack there as well. 00:03:08.970 --> 00:03:14.060 So, um, my father was the one that taught Chaser all these words, and 00:03:14.350 --> 00:03:19.320 what inspired him was the work with Lewis Herrmann and the Dolphins, 00:03:19.690 --> 00:03:22.540 um, Sue Savage Rombaugh, and Kanzi. 00:03:24.335 --> 00:03:27.865 The Chimp, uh, Irene Pepperberg with Alex the Parrot. 00:03:27.875 --> 00:03:34.965 And so, um, these were species that were able to learn words, 00:03:35.495 --> 00:03:41.725 um, but they didn't even have an interspecies bond like we do with dogs. 00:03:42.185 --> 00:03:49.015 So my father was a behavioral psychologist in Spartanburg, South Carolina, and he 00:03:49.265 --> 00:03:52.915 was fascinated with, um, animal cognition. 00:03:53.455 --> 00:04:00.255 And it was our, early pets, uh, are early dogs that really inspired him to 00:04:00.255 --> 00:04:03.665 try to teach our dog human language. 00:04:03.915 --> 00:04:10.115 And he also determined that it would be infinitely more fun for the students 00:04:10.115 --> 00:04:14.475 in the lab and classroom to work with dogs than work with rats and pigeons. 00:04:15.085 --> 00:04:21.030 And so what his original goal was to teach dogs words independent, 00:04:22.870 --> 00:04:25.000 proper nouns independent from verbs. 00:04:25.550 --> 00:04:30.810 So what he discovered though with our dog Yasha who was super fast 00:04:31.100 --> 00:04:36.010 and Yasha would accompany him on all his white water trips and um, 00:04:36.370 --> 00:04:40.700 uh, hiking and uh, uh, windsurfing. 00:04:41.390 --> 00:04:44.380 So Yasha learned, behaviors very rapidly. 00:04:44.650 --> 00:04:50.830 And we would ask him to go find the paper, and of course he'd go lickety split out 00:04:50.830 --> 00:04:52.900 to the mailbox, all excited, running back. 00:04:53.290 --> 00:04:57.560 And once he was in the house, and my father would ask him to find the 00:04:57.580 --> 00:04:59.910 paper, it didn't make any sense. 00:05:01.635 --> 00:05:05.255 It was the behavior of running out, fetching it and bringing it 00:05:05.255 --> 00:05:09.475 in that was excitement and that's what those words meant to Yasha. 00:05:09.905 --> 00:05:15.155 The paper didn't have value to Yasha because he couldn't play with it. 00:05:15.525 --> 00:05:16.845 He couldn't chew on it. 00:05:17.165 --> 00:05:22.295 You know, we didn't throw it and toss it and he, it had no value 00:05:22.475 --> 00:05:24.005 once the paper was in the house. 00:05:24.850 --> 00:05:31.310 But, so for this reason, during his research, uh, for 25 years, he 00:05:31.320 --> 00:05:34.890 worked with dogs, and they were able to teach them very, very complex 00:05:34.910 --> 00:05:38.930 behaviors, but they could not isolate the nouns from the verbs. 00:05:39.340 --> 00:05:46.900 So, it was this, um, quest that he was really searching for, and it, it 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:52.430 eluded him, but it was, When he started to go to border collie trials in his 00:05:52.430 --> 00:06:00.530 retirement, that he was witnessing the nuance of the sounds that border that the 00:06:00.530 --> 00:06:07.660 farmers make for the dogs and how they could identify these different noises. 00:06:09.075 --> 00:06:14.345 that were so nuanced that he had the audacity to say to a border collie 00:06:14.345 --> 00:06:20.045 farmer, you know, science tells us your dogs are really smart, but they 00:06:20.045 --> 00:06:22.605 don't actually even know their names. 00:06:22.615 --> 00:06:28.255 They don't, they're not able to learn names of, of people 00:06:28.275 --> 00:06:30.385 and, and, and other things. 00:06:30.385 --> 00:06:34.635 And the border collie farmer said, whoa, that's what science tells us? 00:06:35.145 --> 00:06:39.105 Well, tell me why I can call out Jeb out of five other dogs. 00:06:39.610 --> 00:06:44.780 And ask him to go find Millie and Tilly, two sheep, out of a 00:06:44.780 --> 00:06:47.350 herd, and he'll do it every time. 00:06:48.630 --> 00:06:53.470 So that gave my father great pause. 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:58.330 And in science, there's two ways science makes a mistake. 00:06:59.050 --> 00:07:03.090 By reading too much into their data, or too little into their data. 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:07.030 And my father had read too much into his data saying that 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:09.060 dogs could not learn language. 00:07:09.460 --> 00:07:14.500 So, he determined that words had to have value. 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:20.990 And in order for them to have value, they had to have value to Chaser in her world. 00:07:21.380 --> 00:07:25.940 And it was through play that they had value. 00:07:26.250 --> 00:07:31.215 And it was just sheer joy of play and learning that she was able 00:07:31.215 --> 00:07:32.725 to learn over a thousand objects. 00:07:33.705 --> 00:07:34.115 Anke: Wow. 00:07:34.415 --> 00:07:39.425 I think learning with play, I think that is really, there's a whole, you know, 00:07:39.425 --> 00:07:41.165 it's a whole world behind that, you know? 00:07:42.295 --> 00:07:48.075 Pilley: Oh, play is probably the most powerful learning tool there is. 00:07:48.145 --> 00:07:53.475 And, um, What happens in play, I mean, remember the first time 00:07:55.035 --> 00:08:01.665 you, you swam, or you rode a bike, or, um, you threw a frisbee. 00:08:01.735 --> 00:08:05.195 You know, it, there's an inherent excitement there. 00:08:05.765 --> 00:08:09.965 And what you liked, if you liked it, even though you weren't very good at 00:08:09.965 --> 00:08:14.825 it, you We're going to repeat that behavior because learning anything 00:08:14.825 --> 00:08:16.795 takes repetition and practice. 00:08:17.145 --> 00:08:23.065 And so if we're playing with our dogs, we're giving them an opportunity to emit 00:08:23.065 --> 00:08:28.705 natural behaviors and instincts, you know, like running or finding, using 00:08:28.705 --> 00:08:32.505 their nose, um, playing builds confidence. 00:08:33.085 --> 00:08:38.995 Um, it's, it's, again, it's an innate behavior that all young animals exhibit. 00:08:39.805 --> 00:08:46.785 Animals in the wild, and which is, is a tough one to understand because animals in 00:08:46.785 --> 00:08:51.565 the wild, if they play, they could attract predators, or they're using valuable 00:08:51.565 --> 00:08:57.585 energy that they've got to conserve because food source isn't right there. 00:08:58.685 --> 00:09:05.840 What we've discovered is that Play is innately reinforcing, and it allows 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:08.390 these animals to be in the moment of joy. 00:09:08.920 --> 00:09:11.260 And it's just fun. 00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:12.650 It feels good. 00:09:12.680 --> 00:09:13.900 Play feels good. 00:09:14.630 --> 00:09:15.170 Anke: Hmm. 00:09:15.510 --> 00:09:16.270 I mean, I don't know. 00:09:16.270 --> 00:09:18.770 I've seen, I've seen documentary, you know, when you see little 00:09:18.770 --> 00:09:22.280 lion cubs and they just play, you know, like it's not, yeah. 00:09:22.570 --> 00:09:26.150 I mean, that now, it makes me, uh, curious. 00:09:26.690 --> 00:09:31.880 about dogs who don't play, right? 00:09:31.880 --> 00:09:36.170 I think I've seen a lot of dogs who, and I mean, I've had one, 00:09:38.780 --> 00:09:44.520 this one, who was sort of quite shut down when he came and quite traumatized. 00:09:44.570 --> 00:09:47.800 Like I kind of know there was, you know, stuff going on. 00:09:48.230 --> 00:09:53.430 And so he never really knew how to play, right? 00:09:53.430 --> 00:09:55.240 So other dogs go like, you're weird. 00:09:55.330 --> 00:09:57.860 And so then there was never that flow. 00:09:58.230 --> 00:09:58.750 So. 00:10:00.260 --> 00:10:05.450 If we actually work off the assumption that all animals, or especially all 00:10:05.470 --> 00:10:11.685 dogs, innately know how to play Is there something that we can do to help 00:10:11.735 --> 00:10:14.545 a dog sort of rediscover that ability? 00:10:16.585 --> 00:10:18.315 Pilley: You know, that's, that's a great question. 00:10:18.345 --> 00:10:23.555 So, and I've, we've encountered this with my sister had a rescue dog and, 00:10:23.555 --> 00:10:30.685 um, she did not, she, she was, you know, pretty damaged and, um, introverted 00:10:30.695 --> 00:10:32.865 and she did not know how to play. 00:10:33.315 --> 00:10:36.355 And I would throw a ball at her and it just hit her off the head, 00:10:36.365 --> 00:10:37.945 you know, I'm like, Oh my God. 00:10:38.535 --> 00:10:39.835 That's so sad. 00:10:40.255 --> 00:10:46.285 And, but once she came to live at my folks house and with Chaser, 00:10:47.025 --> 00:10:48.165 they never played together. 00:10:48.165 --> 00:10:49.465 And that's another thing. 00:10:49.465 --> 00:10:52.385 Let me just take a little sidestep there. 00:10:52.655 --> 00:10:55.005 Not all dogs like to play with other dogs. 00:10:55.535 --> 00:11:01.305 And when, and dogs don't play by themselves very much. 00:11:01.595 --> 00:11:02.795 They like to have a buddy. 00:11:02.795 --> 00:11:04.185 They like to have a partner. 00:11:04.575 --> 00:11:15.490 So, um, Spirit, who was so damaged, didn't play, but by watching Chaser play and us 00:11:15.490 --> 00:11:23.675 engaging, she actually gradually learned after about a year through imitation. 00:11:23.895 --> 00:11:26.995 And one day she actually ran for the ball herself. 00:11:27.525 --> 00:11:30.315 And it was sort of like that breakthrough moment. 00:11:30.865 --> 00:11:35.875 Um, but there's also some people say, well, my dog doesn't like to play. 00:11:35.905 --> 00:11:39.885 And I had a friend that brought his puppy over here who was only about seven. 00:11:40.465 --> 00:11:44.135 She was about seven months old and she was really sweet. 00:11:44.145 --> 00:11:48.115 She was a chocolate, um, something or other, but she was a mutt. 00:11:48.285 --> 00:11:55.380 And, um, she was, not a timid dog, but she wasn't assertive either. 00:11:55.390 --> 00:11:56.860 She was just kind of around. 00:11:57.250 --> 00:11:59.320 So, um, I didn't have it. 00:11:59.360 --> 00:12:00.970 He said she doesn't like to play. 00:12:01.010 --> 00:12:02.240 And I said, well, how do you play? 00:12:02.340 --> 00:12:03.370 How do you play with her? 00:12:03.830 --> 00:12:06.300 And they said, well, we don't, we just bought her all these toys 00:12:06.300 --> 00:12:07.820 and she's not interested in them. 00:12:08.390 --> 00:12:13.680 And I was like, wow, okay, well, it's the engagement that's going to be really fun. 00:12:13.700 --> 00:12:15.620 So I said, all right, let me try something. 00:12:15.880 --> 00:12:18.460 I didn't have anything in my backyard but a pine cone. 00:12:19.020 --> 00:12:23.350 And, uh, I started tossing it in the air and dropping it and 00:12:23.370 --> 00:12:25.420 kicking it and I'd run after it. 00:12:25.430 --> 00:12:27.240 And then I'd kind of juggle with it. 00:12:27.550 --> 00:12:30.410 And then I tossed it and, um, it fell. 00:12:31.105 --> 00:12:32.715 And Ruthie went for it too. 00:12:32.805 --> 00:12:35.835 After about a couple of minutes, she went for the pinecone. 00:12:36.335 --> 00:12:39.835 And then it was at that point that I was like, Oh, Ruthie, you have pinecone. 00:12:39.835 --> 00:12:42.195 I want pinecone. 00:12:42.355 --> 00:12:47.225 And so then I started chasing her, you know, and the cat and mouse game started. 00:12:47.520 --> 00:12:52.120 went on and I kept saying, Oh, good, good catch. 00:12:52.450 --> 00:12:56.410 Or this is, and I kept pairing this play with the name Pine Cone. 00:12:56.630 --> 00:12:57.690 You have Pine Cone. 00:12:57.720 --> 00:12:59.490 I want Pine Cone. 00:12:59.780 --> 00:13:00.870 Catch Pine Cone. 00:13:01.250 --> 00:13:02.360 Find Pine Cone. 00:13:02.570 --> 00:13:06.150 I would hide it in plain sight from her on a chair. 00:13:06.390 --> 00:13:09.070 And I'd say, Ruthie, get Pine Cone. 00:13:09.100 --> 00:13:10.060 Find Pine Cone. 00:13:11.210 --> 00:13:15.650 After about, I don't know how long it was, I got tired and we took a break. 00:13:15.700 --> 00:13:18.390 And Ruthie had not only learned how to play. 00:13:18.980 --> 00:13:21.090 But, um, she learned the name Pinecone. 00:13:23.910 --> 00:13:24.890 Anke: That's incredible. 00:13:24.910 --> 00:13:27.740 I, you know, it's that, it's like when you think about it, like 00:13:27.750 --> 00:13:29.780 Duolingo works like that, you know? 00:13:29.810 --> 00:13:36.500 So like, you just play and you repeat, you know, it's a combination and then 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:41.810 there's little rewards along the way, you know, little dopamine hits by, hey, yeah. 00:13:42.040 --> 00:13:43.670 You know, extended your streak. 00:13:43.700 --> 00:13:48.000 You raised in whatever the Diamond League, you know, I think at the end of 00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:50.030 the day, it's the same concept, isn't it? 00:13:50.550 --> 00:13:55.670 Pilley: It, it, it is completely, you know, and, and it's, and Ruthie built, 00:13:55.790 --> 00:14:00.440 built a bond with me, you know, she was looking at me, she was engaged 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:02.940 with me, and she was wagging her tail. 00:14:02.980 --> 00:14:08.115 So, um, Yeah, and now whenever she comes over, I did this with 00:14:08.115 --> 00:14:10.755 another dog, but when they come over, they're happy to be here. 00:14:11.625 --> 00:14:13.945 Anke: Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense. 00:14:14.265 --> 00:14:19.915 So what's like, apart from not actually playing with the dog, are 00:14:19.915 --> 00:14:21.655 there other mistakes people make? 00:14:22.885 --> 00:14:27.225 Like, I don't know, for example, like, like where I'm going with this is, 00:14:27.225 --> 00:14:29.075 uh, for example, like tongue of war. 00:14:29.470 --> 00:14:29.760 Right. 00:14:30.090 --> 00:14:36.890 And, uh, so there will be, my dad will play tug of war with mine and he will 00:14:36.920 --> 00:14:38.940 hang on there for dear life, you know? 00:14:39.150 --> 00:14:41.770 So I will always let the dog win, right? 00:14:41.770 --> 00:14:45.060 So the dog, I want, I want the dog to walk away with this because 00:14:45.060 --> 00:14:48.060 then I know that then they will come back and want more of it. 00:14:48.440 --> 00:14:49.180 Exactly. 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:50.800 So where's your dad? 00:14:51.085 --> 00:14:53.295 feels like, no, no, no, no, no. 00:14:53.945 --> 00:14:56.105 Like, you really have to win the thing. 00:14:56.145 --> 00:15:00.765 So he quite often will pull hard and then the dog loses interest, right? 00:15:00.795 --> 00:15:01.155 Well, of 00:15:01.155 --> 00:15:01.325 Pilley: course. 00:15:02.605 --> 00:15:06.215 If I'm always losing, that's why I didn't play basketball. 00:15:06.215 --> 00:15:07.285 I was terrible at it. 00:15:07.415 --> 00:15:08.325 I never won. 00:15:08.540 --> 00:15:09.950 You know, why would you want to do? 00:15:10.020 --> 00:15:11.580 Yeah, so you're absolutely correct. 00:15:11.950 --> 00:15:14.840 When we worked with Chaser, we always let her win. 00:15:15.260 --> 00:15:18.890 You know, there's going to be times where, yeah, you, you want them 00:15:18.890 --> 00:15:20.360 to feel good about themselves. 00:15:20.800 --> 00:15:25.360 And if he, if he wants to win, then he should play tug of war with you, you know. 00:15:26.250 --> 00:15:27.530 That's more matched. 00:15:29.160 --> 00:15:30.000 That's not fair. 00:15:30.300 --> 00:15:30.410 Isn't 00:15:30.460 --> 00:15:33.170 Anke: that like something typical that people do wrong? 00:15:33.180 --> 00:15:37.140 Like, you know, say in this panel, there's sort of certain things that, where people 00:15:37.140 --> 00:15:43.160 go, well, actually, if you knew that, your dog would be more playful and the 00:15:43.220 --> 00:15:44.420 relation, because that's the thing. 00:15:44.420 --> 00:15:50.840 It's like, if we realize how much Play really deepens that bond and 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:54.860 creates that relationships and helps the dog relax, helps the dogs learn. 00:15:54.860 --> 00:15:58.140 It's almost like, yeah, well, that's an art worth mastering, right? 00:15:58.140 --> 00:16:01.600 So what are other things that people get wrong? 00:16:02.920 --> 00:16:03.840 Pilley: Get wrong with dogs? 00:16:03.910 --> 00:16:07.620 Well, they, they, they get, they, sometimes people think that what 00:16:07.620 --> 00:16:14.310 they're communicating is very, very clear, you know, and and It is not. 00:16:14.900 --> 00:16:21.490 Um, and it's, this was, my father described this, uh, he, pretty well. 00:16:21.500 --> 00:16:23.430 So, when he was a, 00:16:25.900 --> 00:16:31.190 Back in the 70s, and he was bringing, he would also take, um, students on white 00:16:31.190 --> 00:16:35.890 water trips, because he believed if the experience is fun, you know, you're going 00:16:35.890 --> 00:16:42.400 to have an opportunity to organically learn, which is, is pretty fun. 00:16:42.530 --> 00:16:43.680 It, it feels good. 00:16:43.980 --> 00:16:48.180 So, what he would tell people, they would have two people in a white water 00:16:48.180 --> 00:16:56.050 canoe, and he'd say, Canoeing requires, When you're having trouble maneuvering 00:16:56.050 --> 00:17:00.430 the canoe, you're going to be certain that your partner is the problem. 00:17:01.560 --> 00:17:04.160 It mostly, they most likely are not. 00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:08.775 So it's like, We get this wrong with dogs all the time. 00:17:08.785 --> 00:17:11.095 We're like, well, they're not getting it. 00:17:11.105 --> 00:17:12.935 So they're electing not to get it. 00:17:13.675 --> 00:17:15.705 Um, that, but that's not true. 00:17:15.705 --> 00:17:17.195 Dogs want to please us. 00:17:17.255 --> 00:17:20.895 They want to get on, but we're not being clear in our communication. 00:17:22.515 --> 00:17:23.085 Anke: Yeah, oh my God. 00:17:25.700 --> 00:17:29.720 So, I mean, that's actually a pretty good ground rule to give somebody, right? 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:34.190 If your dog doesn't get it, yeah, you know, chances are it's like 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:36.620 you're not explaining it well enough. 00:17:36.820 --> 00:17:39.630 Pilley: That you're not, you're not, and we, I talk about this in 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:46.390 my book too, it's like back up, re evaluate, and try a different way. 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:50.320 It's like if, my father always highlighted, if learning doesn't take 00:17:50.390 --> 00:17:53.080 place, we have to change the methods. 00:17:53.450 --> 00:17:57.310 We have to assume the student Every dog is different. 00:17:57.310 --> 00:18:04.770 There are some, um, very simple, um, concepts that we can use with, 00:18:04.780 --> 00:18:09.520 universally with dogs, but we have to pay attention to the individual dog. 00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:12.550 You know, and how our behavior affects the dog. 00:18:13.560 --> 00:18:14.900 Anke: Yeah, that makes so much sense. 00:18:14.900 --> 00:18:19.910 I can't remember, I wish I could remember where I first heard it. 00:18:19.950 --> 00:18:23.950 Because I wish I could take credit for it, but I can't. 00:18:24.360 --> 00:18:28.930 And there was a definition that said like, learning and teaching, kind of both 00:18:29.220 --> 00:18:31.090 sides, like two sides of the same coin. 00:18:31.970 --> 00:18:36.670 is the process of connecting something unknown to something known. 00:18:39.550 --> 00:18:43.410 I'm like, this is so spot on because we've all sat through classes 00:18:43.770 --> 00:18:47.030 where the teacher kind of, you know, connects something known to 00:18:47.030 --> 00:18:48.880 something known and then you're bored. 00:18:49.300 --> 00:18:53.920 And you know, a lot of the time when it comes to tech and stuff like that, people 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:58.085 go, yeah, well, you know, the ex, like, I don't want to Google it because I'm 00:18:58.085 --> 00:19:00.355 not going to understand the explanation. 00:19:00.365 --> 00:19:04.355 So when someone gets connected to something unknown, then you're 00:19:04.355 --> 00:19:07.885 lost and then you feel really out of it, you know, so you need 00:19:07.885 --> 00:19:10.229 to find that touch point, right? 00:19:10.229 --> 00:19:14.595 And that's the thing for each person, but for each dog as well. 00:19:14.925 --> 00:19:19.855 And my experience for like getting it wrong was that I thought I was 00:19:19.855 --> 00:19:24.295 taking tiny steps and then I found some other instructions where I 00:19:24.295 --> 00:19:26.145 realized, well, actually I'm just. 00:19:26.325 --> 00:19:36.205 Anke Herrmann, Taming the Tech Monster, Anke Herrmann, Taming the Tech Monster, 00:19:36.205 --> 00:19:41.145 Anke Herrmann, Taming the Tech Monster. 00:19:41.585 --> 00:19:45.385 Pilley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, just back up, stop, and always, when 00:19:45.385 --> 00:19:48.695 you're working with your dog, always, always end on a high note. 00:19:49.125 --> 00:19:53.285 You know, have them, if you're unsuccessful with something, okay, 00:19:53.285 --> 00:19:57.925 we'll stop that, and then do something that they can do, and then, You know, 00:19:59.595 --> 00:20:03.115 so that everybody, that everybody can feel good about themselves because 00:20:03.115 --> 00:20:08.225 dogs are very, very sensitive to failure and, um, who isn't though? 00:20:08.355 --> 00:20:14.445 You know, we all are, you know, so we have to boost them up and, uh, be a 00:20:14.445 --> 00:20:16.685 little more aware of, uh, our actions. 00:20:18.905 --> 00:20:19.525 Anke: Yeah, for sure. 00:20:19.775 --> 00:20:20.225 For sure. 00:20:20.545 --> 00:20:25.755 So tell me a little bit about, you know, um, what, what's the latest book about? 00:20:26.085 --> 00:20:28.165 What's the message behind, what's the intention? 00:20:29.250 --> 00:20:35.260 Pilley: Oh, well the, my latest book, uh, um, this was the book my father and 00:20:35.260 --> 00:20:37.360 I were working on before he passed away. 00:20:37.600 --> 00:20:40.790 It was the second book that his publisher was interested in, and 00:20:40.940 --> 00:20:45.240 it was more prescriptive, like how to teach your dog words and why. 00:20:45.410 --> 00:20:49.265 And, um, Because the answer is so simple. 00:20:49.265 --> 00:20:50.475 It's communication. 00:20:50.735 --> 00:20:54.375 Why wouldn't we enhance our communication? 00:20:54.425 --> 00:20:54.925 Right? 00:20:55.055 --> 00:20:59.705 So it had a lot of tutorial stuff, but then once he passed, I didn't 00:20:59.705 --> 00:21:01.235 know what to do with this book. 00:21:01.845 --> 00:21:04.425 So COVID happened. 00:21:04.765 --> 00:21:09.725 I knew there were some really rich stories, um, of experiences that I had 00:21:09.725 --> 00:21:15.715 with our family dogs and our horses and just sort of the magic of my dad. 00:21:15.725 --> 00:21:16.175 There is. 00:21:16.665 --> 00:21:22.135 Um, uh, no family pet was off limits as a science fair project. 00:21:22.135 --> 00:21:28.865 And so he kind of inspired all of this, um, uh, us to work with our 00:21:28.865 --> 00:21:32.825 animals in creative ways and with using only positive reinforcement. 00:21:33.625 --> 00:21:40.995 So, um, uh, I was trying to figure out the next steps for this book 00:21:40.995 --> 00:21:42.695 and how to put the book in my voice. 00:21:42.695 --> 00:21:48.015 And, um, then COVID happened and I was really inspired by. 00:21:48.360 --> 00:21:51.450 This English book, The Bull, Boy, the Mole, the Fox, and 00:21:51.450 --> 00:21:53.740 the Horse, by Charlie MacCasey. 00:21:53.740 --> 00:21:57.270 It's sort of a children's book, but it is beautifully illustrated. 00:21:57.270 --> 00:22:01.290 It's really for adults, and it's got these little isms throughout the book. 00:22:01.310 --> 00:22:03.260 And I was like, what? 00:22:04.135 --> 00:22:11.635 If I worked with an illustrator and, um, tried to emulate sort of this format so 00:22:11.635 --> 00:22:18.275 that it was easy to read, it had, um, valuable information, science, philosophy, 00:22:18.545 --> 00:22:25.385 and, uh, methodologies, but it was delivered in a fun format and a little bit 00:22:25.385 --> 00:22:30.925 cheeky, you know, so it's, it's a little quirky and funny and I teamed up with New 00:22:30.925 --> 00:22:34.525 York Times illustrator Callum Heath and we 00:22:36.915 --> 00:22:37.355 Anke: I love it. 00:22:37.395 --> 00:22:41.405 And I mean, you know, for somebody who, who is so in tune with 00:22:41.415 --> 00:22:44.735 the importance of play, I would expect your book to be playful. 00:22:46.055 --> 00:22:46.405 Pilley: Playful! 00:22:47.215 --> 00:22:50.165 That's what, that's, that's what it embodied. 00:22:50.165 --> 00:22:55.185 My father, everything was about play and he was, uh, everything 00:22:55.285 --> 00:22:56.515 was positive reinforcement. 00:22:56.555 --> 00:22:59.725 That's the other thing with, uh, Chaser is we, she wasn't. 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:01.490 We didn't use treats 00:23:03.800 --> 00:23:08.320 because your dog can satiate on treats and then the motivation lags, so. 00:23:08.710 --> 00:23:10.960 But if they're they don't satiate on play. 00:23:11.520 --> 00:23:17.640 And, um, so, um, yeah, I forgot where I was going with that. 00:23:17.890 --> 00:23:21.130 But, um, yeah, so learning should be fun. 00:23:21.250 --> 00:23:29.020 And he also repeatedly said that science needs to work harder to deliver 00:23:29.020 --> 00:23:30.930 valuable information to the masses. 00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:34.140 in ways that we, they can understand. 00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:35.290 We can understand. 00:23:35.750 --> 00:23:41.680 So if the, the mind doesn't meet the heart, we're kind of missing the boat, 00:23:42.250 --> 00:23:44.400 you know, that's a missed opportunity. 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:46.660 So that's sort of what this book is. 00:23:46.980 --> 00:23:48.120 That's why I wrote this book. 00:23:48.120 --> 00:23:48.200 I 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:48.580 Anke: love it. 00:23:49.010 --> 00:23:54.275 So where can people go and grab a copy and find out more about you, get in touch? 00:23:55.625 --> 00:23:58.645 Pilley: Well, um, they can find a book, uh, pretty much at 00:23:58.655 --> 00:24:01.055 any, well, it's, it's in the U. 00:24:01.055 --> 00:24:02.695 S., it's also in the U. 00:24:02.695 --> 00:24:06.195 K., um, it's coming out in, um, Romania. 00:24:06.665 --> 00:24:11.445 Um, I don't know if it's in, it might be, I don't know if it's available in Spain, 00:24:11.455 --> 00:24:15.615 but, um, it's called For the Love of Dog. 00:24:16.075 --> 00:24:16.625 Let's see. 00:24:16.735 --> 00:24:18.395 I just happen to have a copy. 00:24:18.395 --> 00:24:18.885 I just 00:24:18.885 --> 00:24:20.985 Anke: happen to have a copy, but I would hope so. 00:24:23.725 --> 00:24:24.795 Pilley: For the Love of Dog. 00:24:24.795 --> 00:24:27.535 It's just right there, um, on my wall. 00:24:27.825 --> 00:24:30.955 No, For the Love of Dog, the Ultimate Relationship Guide. 00:24:31.005 --> 00:24:35.720 So, Yeah, so you can see this is Calum Heath's illustrations are in 00:24:35.890 --> 00:24:40.880 the New York Times every day, but, uh, so you can find it on Amazon or 00:24:41.540 --> 00:24:47.030 wherever books are sold online, um, and in bookstores in the United States. 00:24:48.380 --> 00:24:52.030 Oh, and to find me, you can just go to KiliBianchi. 00:24:52.080 --> 00:24:52.540 com. 00:24:53.650 --> 00:24:58.200 Anke: Also, we'll pop that link in the show notes and underneath, below or 00:24:58.260 --> 00:25:00.320 above this video, wherever you watch it. 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:01.730 Thank you so much. 00:25:01.800 --> 00:25:05.950 I'm, I'm just gonna, like, actually, I was just thinking, hey, 00:25:05.960 --> 00:25:07.390 is there a course to learn DOG? 00:25:07.460 --> 00:25:09.680 Like, that should be taught as a language, right? 00:25:10.600 --> 00:25:11.050 Yes! 00:25:11.925 --> 00:25:13.665 Yeah, thank you so much. 00:25:13.665 --> 00:25:15.165 This was absolutely delightful. 00:25:15.485 --> 00:25:20.305 And, um, yeah, I will put the link to the book and, uh, do yourself a favor 00:25:20.605 --> 00:25:22.095 and get a copy if you haven't already. 00:25:22.115 --> 00:25:23.095 Thank you, Pilli. 00:25:23.095 --> 00:25:24.495 This was absolutely wonderful. 00:25:24.495 --> 00:25:26.065 Pilley: Oh, thank you, Anke. 00:25:26.425 --> 00:25:26.755 Anke. 00:25:29.069 --> 00:25:30.299 Thanks so much for listening. 00:25:30.819 --> 00:25:35.119 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe, and leave a review so 00:25:35.219 --> 00:25:36.999 other dog lovers can find the show. 00:25:37.789 --> 00:25:41.279 If you haven't already, head over to soul touched by dogs. 00:25:41.709 --> 00:25:47.279 com and sign up for weekly doggy cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:25:47.379 --> 00:25:49.749 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:25:49.749 --> 00:25:53.479 And if you know a pawsome human you think I should interview, 00:25:53.899 --> 00:25:55.039 I'd love an introduction. 00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:57.349 Email me at Anke. 00:25:57.619 --> 00:26:01.854 That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.