Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm an Herrmann, and I'm your host.
I talk to poor some humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome, Pilley.
I always say it and I always mean it.
I'm super excited to have you here.
Pilley: Oh, Anke.
I'm really thrilled to be here.
Anke: Well, we have a really lovely juicy topic today, but before we
get there, let people know where in this wonderful world are you
and what's your business with dogs?
Pilley: Oh, well, my business with dogs primarily is centered around one dog.
Which is, uh, my father's dog, Chaser, who has the largest language
learning of any animal in the world.
She learned the names of over a thousand objects.
And, uh, so she scientifically has the largest language learning.
Um, of any dog and, and any man, animal, just because of the
way she can put words together.
So, I was part of her, I was one of her teachers.
She was a family pet.
I managed her and my father after their research went globally viral.
And, um, That was in 2011.
So I've written and, uh, produced and, um, presented on sort of every major network
and in media outlets sort of globally.
And, um, again, that was my father, John Pilley, and his dog, Chaser.
So, um, I'm kind of continued to carry the torch because the methods that
they used were kind of groundbreaking.
Um, particularly, particularly as far as language learning and animal cognition.
Um, and, but I'm his daughter, I'm John Pilley's daughter,
Pilley Bianchi, and yeah, you can find me at, uh, PilleyBianchi.
com on Facebook and Instagram and, uh, yeah, my website.
Anke: Hmm.
I don't even know where to start digging into this.
Pilley: That was a mouthful.
That was a mouthful.
I know.
Anke: But there's several, several kind of angles I would like to
kind of dig in a little deeper.
Um, I mean, one thing I'm, you know, I'm, I'm a linguist and I'm nuts about
language and I'm mostly interested about in, not so much the languages itself,
but the method of teaching the process of learning and teaching language.
So I'm like, super curious to start with, like, what even gave you the idea
to teach this dog a bunch of words, you know, and how did you go about it?
And, you know, when did you realize that Chaser wasn't like
your everyday, regular dog?
Pilley: Oh, well, there's a lot to unpack there as well.
So, um, my father was the one that taught Chaser all these words, and
what inspired him was the work with Lewis Herrmann and the Dolphins,
um, Sue Savage Rombaugh, and Kanzi.
The Chimp, uh, Irene Pepperberg with Alex the Parrot.
And so, um, these were species that were able to learn words,
um, but they didn't even have an interspecies bond like we do with dogs.
So my father was a behavioral psychologist in Spartanburg, South Carolina, and he
was fascinated with, um, animal cognition.
And it was our, early pets, uh, are early dogs that really inspired him to
try to teach our dog human language.
And he also determined that it would be infinitely more fun for the students
in the lab and classroom to work with dogs than work with rats and pigeons.
And so what his original goal was to teach dogs words independent,
proper nouns independent from verbs.
So what he discovered though with our dog Yasha who was super fast
and Yasha would accompany him on all his white water trips and um,
uh, hiking and uh, uh, windsurfing.
So Yasha learned, behaviors very rapidly.
And we would ask him to go find the paper, and of course he'd go lickety split out
to the mailbox, all excited, running back.
And once he was in the house, and my father would ask him to find the
paper, it didn't make any sense.
It was the behavior of running out, fetching it and bringing it
in that was excitement and that's what those words meant to Yasha.
The paper didn't have value to Yasha because he couldn't play with it.
He couldn't chew on it.
You know, we didn't throw it and toss it and he, it had no value
once the paper was in the house.
But, so for this reason, during his research, uh, for 25 years, he
worked with dogs, and they were able to teach them very, very complex
behaviors, but they could not isolate the nouns from the verbs.
So, it was this, um, quest that he was really searching for, and it, it
eluded him, but it was, When he started to go to border collie trials in his
retirement, that he was witnessing the nuance of the sounds that border that the
farmers make for the dogs and how they could identify these different noises.
that were so nuanced that he had the audacity to say to a border collie
farmer, you know, science tells us your dogs are really smart, but they
don't actually even know their names.
They don't, they're not able to learn names of, of people
and, and, and other things.
And the border collie farmer said, whoa, that's what science tells us?
Well, tell me why I can call out Jeb out of five other dogs.
And ask him to go find Millie and Tilly, two sheep, out of a
herd, and he'll do it every time.
So that gave my father great pause.
And in science, there's two ways science makes a mistake.
By reading too much into their data, or too little into their data.
And my father had read too much into his data saying that
dogs could not learn language.
So, he determined that words had to have value.
And in order for them to have value, they had to have value to Chaser in her world.
And it was through play that they had value.
And it was just sheer joy of play and learning that she was able
to learn over a thousand objects.
Anke: Wow.
I think learning with play, I think that is really, there's a whole, you know,
it's a whole world behind that, you know?
Pilley: Oh, play is probably the most powerful learning tool there is.
And, um, What happens in play, I mean, remember the first time
you, you swam, or you rode a bike, or, um, you threw a frisbee.
You know, it, there's an inherent excitement there.
And what you liked, if you liked it, even though you weren't very good at
it, you We're going to repeat that behavior because learning anything
takes repetition and practice.
And so if we're playing with our dogs, we're giving them an opportunity to emit
natural behaviors and instincts, you know, like running or finding, using
their nose, um, playing builds confidence.
Um, it's, it's, again, it's an innate behavior that all young animals exhibit.
Animals in the wild, and which is, is a tough one to understand because animals in
the wild, if they play, they could attract predators, or they're using valuable
energy that they've got to conserve because food source isn't right there.
What we've discovered is that Play is innately reinforcing, and it allows
these animals to be in the moment of joy.
And it's just fun.
It feels good.
Play feels good.
Anke: Hmm.
I mean, I don't know.
I've seen, I've seen documentary, you know, when you see little
lion cubs and they just play, you know, like it's not, yeah.
I mean, that now, it makes me, uh, curious.
about dogs who don't play, right?
I think I've seen a lot of dogs who, and I mean, I've had one,
this one, who was sort of quite shut down when he came and quite traumatized.
Like I kind of know there was, you know, stuff going on.
And so he never really knew how to play, right?
So other dogs go like, you're weird.
And so then there was never that flow.
So.
If we actually work off the assumption that all animals, or especially all
dogs, innately know how to play Is there something that we can do to help
a dog sort of rediscover that ability?
Pilley: You know, that's, that's a great question.
So, and I've, we've encountered this with my sister had a rescue dog and,
um, she did not, she, she was, you know, pretty damaged and, um, introverted
and she did not know how to play.
And I would throw a ball at her and it just hit her off the head,
you know, I'm like, Oh my God.
That's so sad.
And, but once she came to live at my folks house and with Chaser,
they never played together.
And that's another thing.
Let me just take a little sidestep there.
Not all dogs like to play with other dogs.
And when, and dogs don't play by themselves very much.
They like to have a buddy.
They like to have a partner.
So, um, Spirit, who was so damaged, didn't play, but by watching Chaser play and us
engaging, she actually gradually learned after about a year through imitation.
And one day she actually ran for the ball herself.
And it was sort of like that breakthrough moment.
Um, but there's also some people say, well, my dog doesn't like to play.
And I had a friend that brought his puppy over here who was only about seven.
She was about seven months old and she was really sweet.
She was a chocolate, um, something or other, but she was a mutt.
And, um, she was, not a timid dog, but she wasn't assertive either.
She was just kind of around.
So, um, I didn't have it.
He said she doesn't like to play.
And I said, well, how do you play?
How do you play with her?
And they said, well, we don't, we just bought her all these toys
and she's not interested in them.
And I was like, wow, okay, well, it's the engagement that's going to be really fun.
So I said, all right, let me try something.
I didn't have anything in my backyard but a pine cone.
And, uh, I started tossing it in the air and dropping it and
kicking it and I'd run after it.
And then I'd kind of juggle with it.
And then I tossed it and, um, it fell.
And Ruthie went for it too.
After about a couple of minutes, she went for the pinecone.
And then it was at that point that I was like, Oh, Ruthie, you have pinecone.
I want pinecone.
And so then I started chasing her, you know, and the cat and mouse game started.
went on and I kept saying, Oh, good, good catch.
Or this is, and I kept pairing this play with the name Pine Cone.
You have Pine Cone.
I want Pine Cone.
Catch Pine Cone.
Find Pine Cone.
I would hide it in plain sight from her on a chair.
And I'd say, Ruthie, get Pine Cone.
Find Pine Cone.
After about, I don't know how long it was, I got tired and we took a break.
And Ruthie had not only learned how to play.
But, um, she learned the name Pinecone.
Anke: That's incredible.
I, you know, it's that, it's like when you think about it, like
Duolingo works like that, you know?
So like, you just play and you repeat, you know, it's a combination and then
there's little rewards along the way, you know, little dopamine hits by, hey, yeah.
You know, extended your streak.
You raised in whatever the Diamond League, you know, I think at the end of
the day, it's the same concept, isn't it?
Pilley: It, it, it is completely, you know, and, and it's, and Ruthie built,
built a bond with me, you know, she was looking at me, she was engaged
with me, and she was wagging her tail.
So, um, Yeah, and now whenever she comes over, I did this with
another dog, but when they come over, they're happy to be here.
Anke: Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense.
So what's like, apart from not actually playing with the dog, are
there other mistakes people make?
Like, I don't know, for example, like, like where I'm going with this is,
uh, for example, like tongue of war.
Right.
And, uh, so there will be, my dad will play tug of war with mine and he will
hang on there for dear life, you know?
So I will always let the dog win, right?
So the dog, I want, I want the dog to walk away with this because
then I know that then they will come back and want more of it.
Exactly.
So where's your dad?
feels like, no, no, no, no, no.
Like, you really have to win the thing.
So he quite often will pull hard and then the dog loses interest, right?
Well, of
Pilley: course.
If I'm always losing, that's why I didn't play basketball.
I was terrible at it.
I never won.
You know, why would you want to do?
Yeah, so you're absolutely correct.
When we worked with Chaser, we always let her win.
You know, there's going to be times where, yeah, you, you want them
to feel good about themselves.
And if he, if he wants to win, then he should play tug of war with you, you know.
That's more matched.
That's not fair.
Isn't
Anke: that like something typical that people do wrong?
Like, you know, say in this panel, there's sort of certain things that, where people
go, well, actually, if you knew that, your dog would be more playful and the
relation, because that's the thing.
It's like, if we realize how much Play really deepens that bond and
creates that relationships and helps the dog relax, helps the dogs learn.
It's almost like, yeah, well, that's an art worth mastering, right?
So what are other things that people get wrong?
Pilley: Get wrong with dogs?
Well, they, they, they get, they, sometimes people think that what
they're communicating is very, very clear, you know, and and It is not.
Um, and it's, this was, my father described this, uh, he, pretty well.
So, when he was a,
Back in the 70s, and he was bringing, he would also take, um, students on white
water trips, because he believed if the experience is fun, you know, you're going
to have an opportunity to organically learn, which is, is pretty fun.
It, it feels good.
So, what he would tell people, they would have two people in a white water
canoe, and he'd say, Canoeing requires, When you're having trouble maneuvering
the canoe, you're going to be certain that your partner is the problem.
It mostly, they most likely are not.
So it's like, We get this wrong with dogs all the time.
We're like, well, they're not getting it.
So they're electing not to get it.
Um, that, but that's not true.
Dogs want to please us.
They want to get on, but we're not being clear in our communication.
Anke: Yeah, oh my God.
So, I mean, that's actually a pretty good ground rule to give somebody, right?
If your dog doesn't get it, yeah, you know, chances are it's like
you're not explaining it well enough.
Pilley: That you're not, you're not, and we, I talk about this in
my book too, it's like back up, re evaluate, and try a different way.
It's like if, my father always highlighted, if learning doesn't take
place, we have to change the methods.
We have to assume the student Every dog is different.
There are some, um, very simple, um, concepts that we can use with,
universally with dogs, but we have to pay attention to the individual dog.
You know, and how our behavior affects the dog.
Anke: Yeah, that makes so much sense.
I can't remember, I wish I could remember where I first heard it.
Because I wish I could take credit for it, but I can't.
And there was a definition that said like, learning and teaching, kind of both
sides, like two sides of the same coin.
is the process of connecting something unknown to something known.
I'm like, this is so spot on because we've all sat through classes
where the teacher kind of, you know, connects something known to
something known and then you're bored.
And you know, a lot of the time when it comes to tech and stuff like that, people
go, yeah, well, you know, the ex, like, I don't want to Google it because I'm
not going to understand the explanation.
So when someone gets connected to something unknown, then you're
lost and then you feel really out of it, you know, so you need
to find that touch point, right?
And that's the thing for each person, but for each dog as well.
And my experience for like getting it wrong was that I thought I was
taking tiny steps and then I found some other instructions where I
realized, well, actually I'm just.
Anke Herrmann, Taming the Tech Monster, Anke Herrmann, Taming the Tech Monster,
Anke Herrmann, Taming the Tech Monster.
Pilley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, just back up, stop, and always, when
you're working with your dog, always, always end on a high note.
You know, have them, if you're unsuccessful with something, okay,
we'll stop that, and then do something that they can do, and then, You know,
so that everybody, that everybody can feel good about themselves because
dogs are very, very sensitive to failure and, um, who isn't though?
You know, we all are, you know, so we have to boost them up and, uh, be a
little more aware of, uh, our actions.
Anke: Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
So tell me a little bit about, you know, um, what, what's the latest book about?
What's the message behind, what's the intention?
Pilley: Oh, well the, my latest book, uh, um, this was the book my father and
I were working on before he passed away.
It was the second book that his publisher was interested in, and
it was more prescriptive, like how to teach your dog words and why.
And, um, Because the answer is so simple.
It's communication.
Why wouldn't we enhance our communication?
Right?
So it had a lot of tutorial stuff, but then once he passed, I didn't
know what to do with this book.
So COVID happened.
I knew there were some really rich stories, um, of experiences that I had
with our family dogs and our horses and just sort of the magic of my dad.
There is.
Um, uh, no family pet was off limits as a science fair project.
And so he kind of inspired all of this, um, uh, us to work with our
animals in creative ways and with using only positive reinforcement.
So, um, uh, I was trying to figure out the next steps for this book
and how to put the book in my voice.
And, um, then COVID happened and I was really inspired by.
This English book, The Bull, Boy, the Mole, the Fox, and
the Horse, by Charlie MacCasey.
It's sort of a children's book, but it is beautifully illustrated.
It's really for adults, and it's got these little isms throughout the book.
And I was like, what?
If I worked with an illustrator and, um, tried to emulate sort of this format so
that it was easy to read, it had, um, valuable information, science, philosophy,
and, uh, methodologies, but it was delivered in a fun format and a little bit
cheeky, you know, so it's, it's a little quirky and funny and I teamed up with New
York Times illustrator Callum Heath and we
Anke: I love it.
And I mean, you know, for somebody who, who is so in tune with
the importance of play, I would expect your book to be playful.
Pilley: Playful!
That's what, that's, that's what it embodied.
My father, everything was about play and he was, uh, everything
was positive reinforcement.
That's the other thing with, uh, Chaser is we, she wasn't.
We didn't use treats
because your dog can satiate on treats and then the motivation lags, so.
But if they're they don't satiate on play.
And, um, so, um, yeah, I forgot where I was going with that.
But, um, yeah, so learning should be fun.
And he also repeatedly said that science needs to work harder to deliver
valuable information to the masses.
in ways that we, they can understand.
We can understand.
So if the, the mind doesn't meet the heart, we're kind of missing the boat,
you know, that's a missed opportunity.
So that's sort of what this book is.
That's why I wrote this book.
I
Anke: love it.
So where can people go and grab a copy and find out more about you, get in touch?
Pilley: Well, um, they can find a book, uh, pretty much at
any, well, it's, it's in the U.
S., it's also in the U.
K., um, it's coming out in, um, Romania.
Um, I don't know if it's in, it might be, I don't know if it's available in Spain,
but, um, it's called For the Love of Dog.
Let's see.
I just happen to have a copy.
I just
Anke: happen to have a copy, but I would hope so.
Pilley: For the Love of Dog.
It's just right there, um, on my wall.
No, For the Love of Dog, the Ultimate Relationship Guide.
So, Yeah, so you can see this is Calum Heath's illustrations are in
the New York Times every day, but, uh, so you can find it on Amazon or
wherever books are sold online, um, and in bookstores in the United States.
Oh, and to find me, you can just go to KiliBianchi.
com.
Anke: Also, we'll pop that link in the show notes and underneath, below or
above this video, wherever you watch it.
Thank you so much.
I'm, I'm just gonna, like, actually, I was just thinking, hey,
is there a course to learn DOG?
Like, that should be taught as a language, right?
Yes!
Yeah, thank you so much.
This was absolutely delightful.
And, um, yeah, I will put the link to the book and, uh, do yourself a favor
and get a copy if you haven't already.
Thank you, Pilli.
This was absolutely wonderful.
Pilley: Oh, thank you, Anke.
Anke.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's A N k E at Soul touched by dogs.com.