Trey: Hello and welcome back to another episode of MCU Need to Know a podcast
dedicated to the Marvel Cinematic Universe and everything you need to Know.
I'm Trey.
Jude: I'm Jude, how are you doing, Trey?
Trey: Man, it's it's weird.
Whenever it's just us at this point, I think going into this year, we had
this goal of doing more guest episodes.
I'd say mission accomplished.
If it's gotten to the point where it feels weird when it's just you and me.
Oh,
Jude: right.
Like it's so funny.
I, with the guests, I have a different, slightly different audio
set up and I was setting this one up this time and I'm just like, oh
wait, no, I got to do this instead.
So yeah, it is definitely weird, but it was so much fun having all these.
Trey: Yeah, four weeks, you know, we had Nick, we had friend Daniel
Elitch and TK, and it's, it's always interesting to get people's, uh,
varying opinions week to week.
Cause I think at this point, you and I know fairly well what we're
going to expect from the other and what, how we'll receive the episode.
So adding in that guest dynamic is a fun little, uh, variable.
Oh yeah.
I will say this though.
In preparation for this episode, knowing we didn't have a guest, I got lazy.
Like I felt like I kept pushing off like, oh, I got to take notes.
Oh, I got time, Kevin.
Instead of like, oh, I got to prep for the intro.
I got to write what I'm going to say about the person and all this and that.
It was like, oh, I got time.
Jude: Just Jude.
This is just too weird.
Well, I tell you what.
I didn't get lazy.
It, I will say it was, it was, and he texted me this.
So it was a different experience.
I have some, our normal recording night is Thursday as we talked about, but
we're recording on a Wednesday because I have something to do Thursday and
then I will be in town this weekend.
And so expect to hear something with the two of us in the same room for the
first time in awhile, I'm super excited.
Trey: I'm so excited about it.
I think it'll be the, the only, the third time that we've done this.
And the last time we did this, the Metta episodes were born.
So who knows, who knows what could happen when we get to,
Jude: I think we've learned, knock on wood, how to do two
people audio in the same room.
Trey: Well, clearly by saying, knock on wood.
We know nothing about it,
but, uh, yeah, I'm feeling, I'm feeling a little bit more confident
about a two person set up, so hopefully that'll be fine and dandy.
Jude: Yes.
So super excited about that.
Trey: Well, regarding this episode, we're going to continue something we started
last week that I'm really excited about.
Uh, like we said, we're trying to live up to the MCU, need to know name by
curating various articles throughout the week that happened in between recording
sessions of the most important news.
We think you need to know within the MCU.
So after talking about it, uh, and honestly kind of thankful on such
a short turnaround since we're, we are doing this Wednesday, we had
an article that dropped today with perfect timing and it is called.
Inside.
Marvel's what if finale season two plans and the, to Charla spinoff that never
was by Adam, be very over on variety.com.
So essentially what this is, is an article where, uh, Adam interviewed
the creators of what if and asked them a variety of questions in which
we got answers about a season two plans, the idea that there would have
been a, to Charla spinoff without the passing of, um, uh, Chadwick Boseman.
Um, so yeah, dude, what did you think about this article?
Was there anything that stood out to you in particular?
Jude: Just I think just the overall, you know, point of the article, I guess
that that is something, as soon as I heard it, I was like, wow, that is
something I really would want to see.
You know, I think that would be a fun mix, uh, to Charla and Peter Quill.
I'm assuming they would get Chris Pratt.
You know, to do that, but to have the two of them play off of each
other just seemed like so much fun.
And so, yeah, so it, it saddens me to know that that was a possibility
that, that we're not going to get.
Um, but it also.
Makes me hopeful and, and seeing the things that they thought about
and the pairings that they thought about that we wouldn't have seen
on the big screen, you know?
And so that really helps me look forward to season two.
Yeah.
And,
Trey: and I think like, even at its worst, I know I've been pretty critical
of the, what if season one so far.
Uh, but even at its worst, I think that there are backdoor pilots into potential
full shows into this, because that was one of the number one complaints, right.
Like I wish this would have been longer.
I wish this would have had more time to breathe.
Having a whole series is exactly what I was looking for
for some of these plot lines.
So yeah, that would have been really
Jude: cool.
Yeah.
You, you know what, that's, that's a good point.
Like some of the plot lines.
Uh, that, that each individual episode got, could have had its own season.
Trey: Well, we will definitely link it to the article.
There's a lot of great stuff in there.
They even have an answer, uh, from Brian Andrews, the director of
what if, uh, regarding how they tackle the stakes in a multi-verse.
So it's well worth the read and you can find a link to it in our show notes.
Yes.
But of course, we are going to be talking about season one, episode
nine of what, if which is entitled, what if the watcher broke his oath?
So the way we're going to handle this is we've got some pre spoiler thoughts, and
that'll be the section for us to discuss the episode without getting into too
many spoilers, uh, that will be followed by an audio cue, which will bring us
into the spoiler zone, where it will be fair game for all spoilers in the MCU.
So before we get there, Jude, do you have any pre spoiler thoughts for this finale?
I
Jude: liked it, you know, and it's interesting.
Right before we started recording.
I mentioned in my second watch, I liked it less.
Um, you know, and, but, but I, I did genuinely the first time
around, enjoy it even the second time around, I genuinely enjoyed it.
I think it was one of those things that as I'm trying to take notes on it
just, I don't wanna say it didn't hold up because I think I, I think that's
putting too much expectations on these episodes, like in comparison to, to
what I'm looking forward to Disney plus show, or we're looking forward to movie.
So in, in that way, you know, when I say it didn't hold up, but like, yeah.
I mean, did that kind of like scrutiny, I guess, but otherwise,
like, I, I thought it ended well and I'm glad that they were, they did
take that direction with its ending.
Um, it did though, make me wonder, cause I know there was supposed
to be more episodes and I think some COVID issues with product.
Caused that to, to, to not happen.
So I'm curious as to what choices were made to make those changes.
So, you know,
Trey: just to play off something you said, I think something we
have, we keep running into the longer that we cover these series.
Uh, cause I, I had that same feeling with you, even though I ended up
liking this episode more, the feeling.
Uh, we keep bumping into, when we do to these notes is like the finale or the last
act of, of Marvel property is always that action set piece, or that would seem to
feel like, so it, it becomes hard to rate it accordingly if, if that makes sense.
So I feel what you were saying there and that preschooler
thought yeah, that makes sense.
But, uh, yeah, bringing it back to them, to my other priest, sort of the
thoughts, you know, we always share, uh, what we thought up on social media.
So the thing that I wrote was that the episode showed that you
definitely need more than one episode for these characters to breathe.
Um, it, it doesn't necessarily have to be this huge crossover event,
but just more time with these characters goes a really long way in
making me actually care about them.
And.
Yeah, it proved that there is a nugget of entertainment value with these
characters in this episode, because I I've been super critical of this season,
especially in this last half, but, uh, I thoroughly enjoyed this finale.
Um, the most critical I'll get here in the pre spoiler is that it felt like in game
of what is like the end game of what if, and that it needed to wrap up everything.
The difference being that since not everything works for me and what
if we still had to take time to pay off things that didn't work.
So that's where this episode kind of was a little uneven.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, and that was something going in to this episode as
well of was it necessary to link everything because it's a multiple.
You know, I'm like, are you going to embrace fully that it's
a multi-verse and we're really looking at all these universes.
Um, or do you still feel that urge for this unity in we're gonna combine,
you know, tie everything together?
So, uh, I not going to say like, oh, they should have just not, but w I mean,
priests were their thoughts, but I, they could have gone either way, I think.
And it'd be okay.
Trey: You reminded me, there's an article I need to send you.
And I think if I can remember, this is this wasn't planned part of the
outline, so I don't have it verbatim, but I think it was titled the MCU
will never tell complete stories.
And it was talking exactly about what you were mentioning.
So I want to link that to you and also Lincoln in the show notes,
because I think it's worth the read.
Oh, absolutely.
Thanks.
Yeah.
Uh, but of course, those are our pre spoiler thoughts.
We're going to go ahead and get into the spoiler zone.
So like we said, uh, you're gonna hear an audio cue in on the other side.
It'll be fair game for all spoilers in the MCU.
We'll see you on the other side
and we're back.
So, uh, we're going to go with that three act structure breakdown.
Uh, act one is going to start from the beginning of the episode where we start
with captain Carter and black widow on the lamina and star all the way to the point
where the guardians of the multi-verse have solidified and decided to take on
the mission to stop infinite, Ultron.
Uh, so Jude, is there anywhere you'd like to start within this first act?
You know what
Jude: I do like that we started with.
The reenactment recreation.
I don't know what to call it, but with a winter soldier and Peggy Carter, you
know, cause, cause I think we talked about this a little bit on pod, probably
more off pod, uh, within this past week that, you know, the only way, what if
works really is if it's rooted in some kind of contexts that we're familiar
with and then you've got to break away.
Uh, so I, I liked that they still set us in, um, that
familiarity of winter soldier.
Um, and it also made me think, man, I want more of captain Carter.
Like I, I want more of that, that story.
Trey: Speaking of backdoor pilots, we need an entire captain Carter series.
I would watch that in mostly because she works so well as a character.
Jude: Yeah.
I would just love to see the captain Carter and just making an animated.
Yeah.
Like there's no need to, to make it live.
Action.
I'd be okay with an animated captain Carter series.
Trey: Yeah.
I still hope we get a live action adaptation at some point, but
yeah, a live action series.
I mean, uh, animated series would go really?
Jude: Yeah.
And I, and I get it.
You're right.
There's, there's an element of Haley at, well, let's get her on screen captain.
Carter's fantastic.
But I'm also, I scroll through Disney plus and I think about, you know,
we got finally got the Blackwood and we, we had captain Marvel, right.
We're going to get the marvels.
We got one division, but you start thinking about those, uh, female led,
you know, we're, we're gonna get she whole can, you're gonna get that.
Um, Oh, what was that?
Ms.
Marvel?
Um, I just said the marvels.
I don't know.
I couldn't think of Ms.
Marvel, but I mean, you get the idea, right?
We're getting all those shows.
Uh, there's live action shows and you start thinking about, well,
okay, these are rated essentially the television equivalent of PG 13.
You know, a man, when I think of like Spider-Man and his ultimate
friends, um, or ultimate Spider-Man is when I'm thinking of Spiderman
and friends, ultimate, I combined the shows of injures assembled.
And you think about those things, it'd be so great to have that.
And with Peggy Carter as well.
Trey: I see what you're saying.
You know, I, I do want to circle back to what you were saying about
starting with the familiarity of winter soldier with camp and black widow.
The biggest criticism I walked away from in that first episode with captain Carter,
was that like, okay, I liked it, but I felt like we just kept recreating what had
already been done in the first Avenger.
I've been really trying to reassess how I feel, because in contrast to that
episode, I felt like it did work well here because that straight up was the winter
soldier, like down to the conversations they were having the, uh, embarking on
the ship and taking down all those agents.
Like it was almost a one-to-one shot, but there was something about
the confidence of this episode and how it started with them.
Like there, there felt like there was already history between camp
and black widow and it felt like watching a believable friendship.
And I liked that a lot and it really became the backbone.
I think, of this particular episode, like their established relationship
and that opening shot set up so much of the emotional core of this episode.
And I really enjoyed that.
Jude: Um, Hmm.
Trey: And one thing to add while you're thinking about that, captain Carter
is so much better at handling love loss than Steve was because she can
actually joke about losing Steven this universe, where Steve was always just
kind of like solid looking over Peggy.
Jude: Yeah, like it you're right.
It was, it was exactly the same thing, but it did, it felt different.
Um, it felt right.
You know, it just, it just was so awesome and so good.
And you know, the through line and I know it's happens in the third act, but
the through line all the way to the end.
It's interesting.
My second watch there's things that, that is like, again, that note
taking critical illness where I'm like, okay, but what about this?
You know what I mean?
Um, that I didn't ask in the first.
Watch and I just enjoyed it, but that's, again, it's an overall
issue with the series and you know, what I think caused the problems
for me is when it was started,
it was actually, it was actually before then, but yeah, party
thrower really ruined it.
Um, honestly it was, it was when it started.
Um, and we, we wrestled with this, with water vision, right.
This whole, let the show do its thing.
Take the show in.
You know, don't get caught up in expectations, um, in terms of like,
I'm expecting to see this, or I want this to happen and it doesn't happen.
Right.
Everybody in Reed Richards on, uh, what ended up being a throwaway
line, you know, like they, they wanted to make a big deal about the
vehicle and how cool the vehicle was.
And everybody was just like, where's Reed Richards, you know?
And so the text message.
Yeah.
Right.
But it's kind of the same thing here, I think once before, what if
came out and they started having those announcements and talking
about how, oh, this is cannon and.
I wish I wouldn't have had that stuck in my head because that
took me down some paths that I probably shouldn't have gone down.
And I'm also going that from the, from the same point when leach was on, I mentioned
it, the star wars visions, knowing ahead of time that it wasn't cannon any
of it as I'm watching these episodes.
I'm like, I'm not all worried about is that RGD too?
Or, oh, look, that's Java.
And it's just an episode and it's for fun, you know?
And, and I, and I think I would have enjoyed what if series as a whole
more, if I would've had that mindset,
Trey: I've been thinking about it.
This is something I wanted to bring up and I don't know where I would've put it
in my notes, but I think it works here.
I feel like what if as a show has a bit of an identity crisis, and I say
that playing off what you were talking about on the expectation of this being
like, oh, this is totally cannon.
You know, we've mentioned as well, it's in this weird space where.
It can exist without the Canon of the prime timeline, but it also, isn't really
contributing to the prime timeline.
And then from episode to episode, it's just kind of totally all over the place.
And so I think I understand what you're saying about like, if this
wouldn't have been marketed as like, oh yeah, this is totally.
I probably wouldn't have been as precious about the storylines.
So I see what you're saying.
Yeah.
And before you continue, I'm gonna go ahead and say this.
Uh, we have already decided that we're not doing a wrap-up episode.
Normally, whenever we cover a series on Disney plus we cover every episode.
And the week after the finale, we do a wrap up episode where we essentially asked
the question, did it work and talk about things we liked and didn't like about it?
Um, I think if I can speak for both of us, we've been conflicted
with the season overall.
So rather than just doing a full episode to it, we're kind of baking
that into here because we didn't want to just have a whole episode read
where like, you know, I didn't like it.
Jude: Yeah.
And I mean, to pull it back to this finale, you know, some of my notes.
I was like, why were you grabbing Thor and not the, the, the frost giant, low key,
you know, like, I don't like that didn't make sense to me in terms of, I mean,
you grabbed and I loved it cause they said like Gomorrah, Kamora, dear Lord.
No more.
And, and, and singing in the rain it's we talked the whole night through, but
I'd seen it to the girls saying, um, you slept the whole night through celebration.
Trey: Um, my mom, I think did an alternate version of that.
Cause I just remember whenever she would wake us up for school, she'd
be like, good morning, good mode.
But I don't remember.
I never, and you know what, until, until this day, I didn't know
that was from singing in the rain.
I thought it was a swing that
Jude: she was saying, love singing in the rain, seen it at the theater.
Never seen it.
Oh my gosh.
The kids love singing in the rain.
Like we, we saw it in the theater.
It's fantastic.
And we're time travelers.
Uh, but yeah, so like Gomorrah survivor of Sakaar it's like, oh wow, good.
Maura was once a car and survives the car, you know?
Um, you got a little hint of Tony.
And this hope Buster outfit on nevertheless like that, that was all cool.
You know?
And you went with Thor rather than low-key, you know what I mean?
And that's the thing is like, if you're going to do the,
what if like lean into it, man?
Beta Ray bill or give us, you know, frog Thor, you know, like, like what,
like w when you have that open canvas, you know, and so, and so that's what I
mean where it's just like, it was just too, it was just, I dunno what, I'm
kind of losing my point here and I'm sorry about that, but I it's just those
things, like just didn't work for me.
I did like seeing Natasha over and over again.
Right.
And getting clearly different versions of Natasha though.
My second watch, there was a few issues I had, but, you know, it was just like
to challah bringing it to Charlie.
And I was like, that was awesome, you know?
Um, or I wish they would have grabbed pepper or Shiri instead of Kilburn.
Trey: That's what I was going to chime in with.
Like I get by the end of it, you have, and I'm skipping ahead of it.
You have that moment where strangers like, oh, you foresaw everything.
That's why you brought in Kilmore.
But like that, is that really like, this is what if that's the only way that you
could have separated the stone was by bringing in Killmonger, like even the
way that the watcher addresses them.
He's like murderer of Tony stark.
Like, yeah.
It didn't feel like you actually needed to have Killmonger there.
And the other thing I was going to say is that I held my tongue last week when
I S I wanted to say that so far, it feels like the only essential episodes
we got as of last week was the Dr.
Strange episode.
And then the, what if Ultron one episode, those are the only two episodes that
felt like it built off anything, but I held my tongue because I thought, okay,
you know, we're most likely gonna get this big crossover in the finale, and
it's probably going to pay things off.
It's so funny to me again, I do like this episode, but it's so
funny to me that I felt that I was like, oh, I'll give it a chance.
And then one of the first few people that we recruit is somebody from
something we haven't even seen before.
Like, it wasn't, you didn't need to do the setup of every individual
person because it worked like you had Gomorrah here and he was fine.
Like, we, we were educated enough on the, the, the wa the rules of
the, what if universe that like, you could pluck whoever you wanted.
So it felt weird that it both had this impulse where you had to set up people
and bring them into this, but also prove that didn't really need that either.
Jude: Yeah.
Right.
Because that's the thing is, I think we, as an audience accepts
the premise of what if and so, you know, which is a fine line, right?
Because you can go back to my buddy, Sean.
He's like, I want to see something way out there.
I don't want you to rehash old stuff, but the premise of what is.
You, you have to revisit old stuff cause you have to have something
to ponder to what if on, right?
Yeah.
And there was times where in this show, this, bring it back to the episode
and this episode where they were leaning on prior knowledge or the work
they'd done from previous episodes.
Okay.
Fine.
But they didn't lean on within the other episodes.
Our prior knowledge enough to take those chances.
To go out and do something radically different, like the
Gomorrah, you know, they're, they relied on that prior knowledge and
just went out there and got it.
You know?
Well, even location-wise, they've never done a leader location-wise,
you know, cause it was so quick.
Yeah.
Trey: I mean just the, the imagery of Gomorrah in the Santos armor is so like
rich would visual storytelling because you know that relationship between her
and Dan knows, you know, what that armor means to Thanos toast, to see her they're
dressed in that armor and his weapon, it immediately starts your, your mind
going like, okay, how did you get here?
And then, like you said, throw in Neveah to Lear and Tony.
With, uh, is it each tree as they're destroying the gauntlet?
Like there's so many, like, I don't think you have to walk us through how you got
there and just trust a little bit of like, okay, this is how this is remixing.
So I feel like, I know we brought back to the episode, but bringing a
little bit more on the positive side.
I want to talk about the pub scene and specifically because of that
one scene in Ragnar rock where Dr.
Strange gives Thor, the never ending mug.
It makes me so happy that he is the multi-vessel bartender for
this ragtag team of guardians.
Jude: Yeah.
See, that's the other thing.
I was really expecting that mug to fill up again.
And now having said that I am glad that he did the whole smashing.
The whole kinda and everything he said, I don't even remember.
I don't think you said another, but just the whole smashing down.
I was like, ah, that brings a smile to my face.
Uh, but you're right.
He is Dr.
Strange is the multi-vessel
Trey: it's a high honor of all, all the doctorates he had, all
of the surgeries completed.
He's got to put multi versatile bartender as up as one up there.
Jude: Yeah.
PhD MD, all of it, bartender, you know, he probably bartended his way through
medical school, so he probably could have,
Trey: it makes sense to
Jude: me, new head cannon for
Trey: all of his arrogance, he is still pretty conversational.
So he had to pick that up somewhere.
Oh yeah.
So, but now, you know, I was going to say in my priest portal,
I thought I mentioned that.
Um, I may have done this on social.
I don't think I said this in the episode, but I mentioned that a little
characterization goes a long way.
And so I wrote this in my notes and I was very curious to see
how this was going to work.
Um, I'm starting with, I think the biggest issue I had in this series
is the Killmonger episode and, uh, you know, I won't rehash everything,
but the biggest thing I think I came away with is how unopposed he was
for the duration of his episode.
It, you know, I wanted to note that.
The driving force for Killmonger in this episode is no different than
what he was doing in his episode.
But the difference was that because you brought these characters together and he
had something to contrast with, it meant so much more to me to see him side eyeing
that Ultron helmet than it did, watching anything that he was doing in his episode.
Um, and so like, it, it felt like there was a stake there of like,
here are all these people that have this one goal and you can already see
him starting to hatch another one.
So that just felt like good narrative drama.
Um, And where I thought I was gonna maybe, you know, meet you halfway with party.
Thor was, if I was trying to see from your perspective, like, okay, party
thrower is just completely annoying.
I like, I don't, I'm personally fine with them, but if I'm someone who is completely
annoyed with them, I think the strength of this episode was that he got to be
the comic relief and not necessarily the shoulder on which the episode relied on.
So you only got him in small doses with the way that he would like, you know,
like, oh, I'm not falling for this.
This is one of Loki's tricks.
And then he like tries to walk out and he has to be brought back in screaming.
And then everybody else continues on with the plan.
Like it felt like there was a better balance with these characters interacting
with each other than there was anything that happened in their, their solo
Jude: episodes.
You say something about Erik Killmonger and then I'll tell you what
party thrower was to this episode.
Okay.
Uh, as you're saying that about Killmonger.
I'd liked the Killmonger episode.
We talked about this and that was the only one friend Daniel was on.
I did enjoy it, but I fully admit a better episode to show Killmonger
would be what if to Chaka brought him home instead of leaving them there.
Right?
Like what, what would that have been like?
, you know, when, when that happens and see that difference, that would have
been a fun experiment to look at.
Uh, so, so I I'm agreeing with you to that extent, you know,
and the Killmonger episode.
Yeah.
Thor.
So this past Monday, my fifth grader, we're at baseball practice and she gets
the bright idea of like, oh, coach brought this big orange cooler, full of Gatorade.
I'm going to add some of it to my water.
And then did she drink the water?
And she's like this water's terrible.
It's water with really super watered down Gatorade flavor.
And it seems so it seemed like a good idea at the time, but a little
bit of Gatorade ruined the water and even a little bit of comic relief
of Thor ruined what potentially could have been really good scenes.
Doris Decatur rated my water.
Trey: No, I get it.
And like I said, I was, it was a fun thought experiment to see if I
could see it from your perspective.
And the answer is no, but like I get what you mean also
Jude: like water and Gatorade.
I get it.
Trey: Oh man.
No, I get you like I, 100% understand, uh, you know, where
you're coming from with party Thor.
I was hoping to see if maybe the balance brought some, um, levy to them, but
no, Nobody wants a watery Gatorade.
Jude: No, no, it's just
Trey: one last thing I want to mention that I have for my notes
is, you know, again, I think the pub scene is a really strong scene
here in this first act specifically.
I love the back and forth between strange and the watcher as they
both are kind of vying for the responsibility of picking up the team.
Because whenever Thor is like, oh, you know, I've been known
to attract unwanted attention.
And he accidentally like shocks the, the, the chandelier strange,
like looks at watcher and it was like, oh, you picked him.
And then whenever Gomorrah is like demonstrating the, the, uh, infinity
crusher, uh, the Watchers, like I pick them, like, it was fun to see
them back and forth as they were like boasting for responsibility.
Jude: That it's a good dynamic.
And I would love to have seen more of that too, you know?
And it went for the title of the episode.
It was really weird to see, to see like, I, I think, I think I expected to see more
of the watcher involved in the plan in participating in the, in the final battle.
Yeah.
You
Trey: know, especially cause we know he can find
Jude: like, like give that group and give him the watcher as well.
Like.
So maybe he's tired.
Hey, it's like you said before, it's like, it's like, when you, you're
playing that video game, when you get to tag in like that's extra character
and that it has to recharge, you know, so the washer had to sit, the
Trey: watcher has a cool-down.
I was going to say it like, look, I mean, Yoda came in for
one big fight and that was it.
And we still love Yoda.
So I think the watcher gets a pass, one big fight and
Jude: a revenge of the Sith he took on Duku and the clone wars.
Trey: Oh, that's right.
Okay.
My star wars is, is hazy then
Jude: it is.
And you know, and that's only in the live action movies.
If you go watch the clone wars animated series like you should, oh
Trey: man.
You know, I, I could feel myself walking into that closed
door and I do it every time.
Uh, unless we have any more, uh, I think we can move into act two.
All right.
Cool.
So act two is going to start us from the celebratory drinking moment between
the guardians of the multi-verse, uh, until they are interrupted by
Ultron all the way until the moment where they have discovered that their
plan with the infinity crusher is not going to work due to the differences
in the infinity stones per universe.
So starting with me this time, um, to, to play off what I was saying a little
bit, and again, I'm trying not to make this about like, oh, this is what I
would have done, but I, here we are.
This is our fourth series.
We've covered.
You people know me by now.
Yeah.
I do it too.
Well, you know, what's so funny.
Somebody wrote, I believe it was a melt gaming or Mr.
Milk on a, they just recently changed their username.
But, uh, Mr.
Mel, they mentioned like, Hey, you know, I, I'm not a writer and
believe me, I know I'm not a writer and I just responded to them.
And I said like, Hey, we've got plenty of writer, hats to go along.
Like, you're fine.
Jude: You can borrow on.
Yeah.
Trey: Oh man.
But now what I was going to say is that I think if you would have
gotten to this comradery of the multi-verse a lot quicker, I would
have enjoyed the season so much more.
Um, because again, I mentioned, there feels like there's this impulse that you
need to set up each and every individual character before you cross them over.
But I think it's possible to learn about these characters in
contrast to each other and the conversations that they were having.
So specifically there was a scene where strange and Carter were talking
and they were talking about like, oh, I'm assuming your Carter did this.
And he's like, actually it was, uh, captain Rogers.
And so you learn their dynamic there.
Uh, there was another scene where Gomorrah and party thrower
were talking about Ultron.
And you learned about the suspicious nature and the, the wising up to
his actions that Gomorrah had.
And I may lose you here.
But some of that, like innocence to Thor is like, Hey, I trust everyone.
And so they did a great job of.
Showing these characters interactions with each other that I feel like
you could have gotten to this quick.
Jude: You know what I, it's interesting.
It's like they forgot the lessons of the, of the, of the phases.
I mean, that's how we got Spiderman and black Panther.
They, they showed up in civil war first.
Um, that's get Monica Rambo that way in Wanda vision, you know, we're
going to get, um, oh, who was it?
That the other one that I was thinking of, I was kind of introduced in that way.
Yeah, I think I was thinking to Sylvie, you know, well, Falcon, you know, look
at the part that he played and how he was introduced, you know, so, yeah.
So I just it's like, it's going to be done and we've done this.
So I don't you're right.
I don't know where that impulse came of.
Like, oh, we need.
To introduce everybody in that
Trey: way.
And again, to be fair and cause I'm always trying to keep in mind about like,
it's easy to armchair screen, right.
You know, this is the first entry into the animated universe.
Maybe there's some different rules and things that they're
trying to learn as they go.
But that that's, that's what that scene, it stood out to stood out for me.
Is that feeling of like, oh, this is, this is what I was missing.
No,
Jude: there's your rights.
It was like, we learned a lot about strange on the toast.
I love the toast.
The toast was fantastic.
100.
You know, and, and we learned a lot about strange right there.
Um, and it makes sense that to challah star, Lord's going to step in and do that.
That's what he does.
Um, it was great, you know, so in, in that, you know, um, I
completely agree with you on this whole character development.
And we got so much out of such a short scene, you know, and, and you're right.
Like the, the party Thor, right.
I didn't, I didn't take him at his is necessarily naive.
I didn't really think of it much at all, but, um,
Trey: am I.
Just a little tiny crack in the shield.
Jude: No, no.
Um, so I, I mean, I was, I was trying to convey how much of an afterthought
that it, that he was to me that like, I didn't even give it enough thought
to be like, oh look, he's naive.
I was just like, oh, look, he's there.
Um, you know, I mean, I mean, literally, right, like one of my notes, my
first two notes of this scene, I don't even have contexts with it.
So I'm not exactly sure what I was referring to strange as toast was
fantastic for exclamation points.
Oh, door.dot dot, like.
Trey: Yeah.
Yeah.
I think what you're referring to, I can't remember exactly what he
says, but he gets excited and he shoots his lightning into the sky.
And that's what triggers.
Jude: I think that might've been it now.
I will say like, like one of the things and another thing, going back to captain
Carter, the whole BFF thing, you know, it's like, I would love to seen more of,
and it was a different Natasha, but I'd love to see more of Natasha and cap, but
here and that second viewing is where things started to break down for me, as
I was thinking about, oh, so it's like, what am I notice is like, good thing
that Blackwood backstory is the same.
And in that universe, you know?
Cause cause the, like the other words, the things that Kat had to say in order to
have proof, I'm like, it's a, multi-verse.
We're not, you can't be confident necessarily that is
going to be the same backstory.
Um, it works.
I like it, you know, but it's things is like, if I'm, if I think
about these things, it was like, uh, and, and part of that, again,
it's, it's, it's the cannon, right.
And what rules are we going to apply to it?
And not because it cannon, whereas if I didn't think of it in those
terms, I probably who cares.
Right.
Um, and then I did think one part that infinity.
I was like, that was dumb.
Yeah.
Okay.
So for me, it was like, if the stones that Ultron have can work outside of its own
universe, then the stone crusher should have worked outside of its own universe.
Like there, they wanted it both ways.
And so to have that moment where it's like, oh, they won,
but it's not quite over yet.
You know?
Um, and I'm like, well, that doesn't make sense.
Um, and again, if it's part of it is, and if it's part of Canon, right,
let's just hold multi-verse and these are just other universities.
Well, they've already established and low-key their paperweights
and no way should that have worked after outside of that, uh, universe.
And so which made the vision ultra.
Or as Ken put it Vultron anyways, in a text to us, V U L T R O N.
Trey: I'm a, my personal favorite is ultra and pro max
Jude: pro max, you know?
Um, oh, what did he, what did he say?
Hold on, let me get it.
I gotta give kin all the credit on this one says, I think you can shorten vision
Ultron to Vultron destroyer of the multi-verse defender of the universe.
That was fantastic.
Um, but he says the line, like the infinity stones are unique,
like, and I'm just like, so they shouldn't work here, you know?
Well, wait, I guess they should, because they went back to his universe, you
know, I guess planet wise, but at the same time, it's like, I don't know.
It just, it just took me out of it.
You know, it was like, no stone crusher should have worked.
So I'm the party pooper.
Trey: You're
Jude: not a party pooper that's that's no, no, no, no.
That's that new merge MCT now on the party pooper
Trey: dude, the party, you know what we should start doing?
Jude: No, no, no.
Oh, not my name.
Just put I'm the party pooper that way.
When people get
Trey: dude, the party pooper it's too late.
I already got the merchandise.
When I was going to say is that we should do, we should award the party pooper of
the season because clearly I would have been the party pooper for Falcon soldier.
Uh, I don't know if I think you eventually came around to low-key
so no party pooper there, but uh, we both get the party pooper
Jude: award.
That's so funny.
We have series MVP, uh, which clearly it's captain Carter for us.
Um, I think maybe I'm wrong.
Trey: My I'm torn between the challah and captain Carter.
Jude: Okay.
That's fair.
Yeah.
Um, and I would love to throw in.
Um, wash.
Yeah.
But there was only that one episode
Trey: that's how impactful they were.
Yeah.
So I want to circle back because you brought up a lot of great points
that I want to kind of respond to.
And I think I can start where you were talking about like, thank goodness
that Natasha's backstory was the same, because it's such a pivotal moment.
And to set the scene it's whenever captain Carter arrives in the universe,
the age of Ultron universe and.
Natasha has stolen the stone and she's holding them at gunpoint.
And captain Carter is able to talk her down by going through her backstory.
And so the thing that I wrote is that again, referring to the confidence of
the way they started the episode at the beginning, it makes this heartfelt moment
so much more rewarding, at least for me, because it's something that we've
been tracking throughout the series, you know, what stays the same, like
Rogers, what changes like strange here.
It's nice to know that the friendship between Peggy and Nat is something
that remained throughout the universes.
So there, it reminds me of something.
I also wanted to bring up in the, whenever we were doing the MCU news,
you need to know, um, there was a quote from Brian Andrews, where he
was asked about like, well, how do you handle the stakes of a multi-verse
when you can just sidestep into another universe and everything's fine there.
And so this is a quote from Brian.
It says, quote.
So if we're doing our job and engaging the audience, it shouldn't matter
that there could be some other person that's alive or dead in some
other universe is what's happening right there in the present, right in
front of your face, that adventure.
And if you can connect in some way then awesome, then it's always going to work
and you never know what you're going to get, which I think is part of the fun.
Um, I'm ending the quote.
There's a little bit more that you can read in the article.
But the thing that I wanted to take away from that is I, it's
something we've talked about.
Once we start dealing in the multi versus like, how do you handle the stakes?
And even though I'd say 65 to 70% of the way they handled the multi-verse
didn't work for me in the series.
I think that moment with Peggy and KA and Nat worked because of that
confidence they had in the beginning and.
And one more thing.
Like you keep you talk about, like, you have to have a cannon to be able
to do a, what if, um, you know, I, I know there's this there's sometimes
there's pushback of like, what is, or isn't Canon and that can become a very
heated discussion, but it's reminding.
Of something that I've been running into with a friend of mine we've been playing
D and D and the way we play any game, not just D D is two different styles.
Like he likes open-world stuff and I like more directed goal oriented encounters.
And he keeps the compromise that we came to is that like, in order for
me to be able to have the open-world freedom of choice, there has to
be something to choose against.
And so the cannon of the MCU is the thing that you're choosing
against whenever you're stepping into the, what if universe.
So I also understand, um, that feeling of what we're bumping into when things
don't make sense to the established rules.
If that makes sense, it
Jude: makes a lot of sense.
Trey: Yeah.
So I like that's been helping me because I've been trying to play D and
D concurrently with this web series.
That's what's been helping me try to make sense of like, what if.
Jude: No.
And that makes, that makes complete sense.
Um, the one rule, there are no rules, right?
Trey: You got to have at least one, one rule.
It's
Jude: always got to be one rule.
Otherwise you can't break it.
You know what I'm going to get.
I'm going to get sidetracked.
There's a, there's a game that I play with my fifth grader.
Uh, it makes my other kids frustrated.
My wife likes to play it and a good friend of mine and his
wife, uh, introduced it to us.
It's called flux F L U X flux.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
And there's one rule, draw card, play a card.
And then there's rule cards that as you play that changes the rules.
And as you go, and the goal of the game of how to win the game, all changes.
Everything is in flux, you know, and I love that game.
Right.
Like, and it just remind me what you're saying.
Just reminds me a little bit, that game of like, here's your one established thing.
We have the movies, you know, But it's like, they didn't know or find
that balance of like, it's okay.
Play all these cards and mess up all the rules, you know?
Um, cause that's the point of the game, you know, is to cause the chaos.
Um, so yeah, so that's, but you know, I mean eventually original point you, right.
That moment worked and it works because of the groundwork into the beginning
of the episode, it works because we know Natasha from the one rule, right.
All the movies, you know, and, and they're able to rely on that.
So, so they did that very well
Trey: there and I keep thinking.
And I'm, I can't remember if I said it, but whatever.
It's always the Reddit comment that says, well, technically all stories
are, what if stories, if you think about it and it's, it's what separates
them is the ability to have meaning.
And I think they've found meaning in that relationship, right?
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Yes.
Oh, what if stories?
Shorter stories.
But it's like, when it's like, when I asked my students, all right, guys,
I want you to close your eyes and imagine a world in which you don't
exist, where are you able to do it?
And majority of them were like, no, I can't like the moment I start trying
to imagine a world in which I exist.
I don't exist.
I'm making choices off of the knowledge of my own existence.
Right?
Like you just, you can't get away from it.
It's the same thing here.
Like you're, they're making choices off of.
Prior material existence and that's that's okay.
Um, but you know, um, and that, and that's, I will say is what
this episode did very well.
And along with the last episode, is that leaning into what we already knew.
And balancing it with pushing out, you know, um, you know, I'm just taking
issue with some of the stuff that they connected to in previous seasons, right?
Like you didn't grab pepper Shiri.
That would have been so much better to me than Killmonger.
Um, you didn't, you know, you can add party Thor.
It's like you had party Thor, right?
Like you could have done a completely other Thor and it would have been okay.
You know, um,
Trey: kind of grabbed captain Marvel from that party Thor universe.
Right.
Jude: I have an article that I need to send you.
Um, and I'll link it.
If I find it in time, by the time this is published, I gotta find it.
Um, but it talks about captain Marvel.
All the work the marvels is going to have to do to rebuild captain Marvel after
being torn down by what if, um, wow.
You know, well, and we talked about it a little bit, right?
Tara brought it up on our pod, a little bit of this, the shorthand
of like, oh, how do we show how powerful little Tron is?
How do we show how powerful Thor is?
Oh, bring in captain Marvel.
And she succeeds.
And neither one is the point of the article.
You know, um, and so you kind of just render her to powerless in a weird way.
And
Trey: I see what you mean.
Yeah.
I mean, I think, you know, cause we were detailing the ways in which, what if
was using short hands and I felt like they kind of get away with it with Tony
because Tony is a character that has gone the getaway with a little bit with
Santos because he's also a character that has gone, but Tara kind of not kind
of Tara opened up my eyes to like how that's a problem for a character that
is still around like captain Marvel.
And so I'm very interested in reading that article that you were talking about.
Jude: I need, I need to find it.
Uh, no pressure.
Hm God.
Where did I find it?
Okay.
I'll look for it.
I did, I did a quick Google search right now just to see, um, if I could find.
And it didn't come up immediately, but I know I can find it.
Trey: Well, we are in act two, but as we've talked about before, a lot of
times, whenever we get to the end of the series, it's a lot of the action stuff.
So I think the easiest way that we can handle this is we're going to start
talking about some of the action sequences that we enjoyed and act two, and let
that transition us into act three.
So if I can start one of the things that I really enjoyed about how
creative these action set pieces were, I love that scene wherever they're
on that first desolate universe and that door launches his hammer and
strange uses his spells to multiply it.
And in the confusion of that chaos, uh, captain Carter is using her shield and
is able to Ram into Ultron and then take one of the hammers back to steady ground.
Uh, such a fun sequence.
Captain Carter's worthy.
Well, technically she didn't lift it.
She just hits the ride to which Peter Parker did the same thing.
Jude: Okay.
That's fair.
Trey: But jury's still out.
She
Jude: could be, she could.
But, you know, party thrower certainly worthy.
Now.
It was a cool moment.
I did like that.
That was in my note.
I loved all the hammers.
Right.
And so that was a cool moment.
Uh, just the overall, like there's, there's elements of that, um, action
sequencing that, you know, in a lot of this is act three stuff, but it's, that
reminded me very much of infinity war when they're attacking Thanos, especially at
the end, um, when they're all getting them at the same time and overwhelming them.
Um, and that was really cool.
I really loved that one shot of, and I think you called it or
maybe Tara called it, um, right in both of y'all of black widow.
And cap using the shield at the same time.
And then you have that one slow Mo shot, Zack Snyder watch.
This is how you properly do slow Mo where target.
Gives the top of Ultron or while under the other one under cuts it, you know,
and you have that perfect slow-mo shot.
So you really like feel the blow that they dealt to, um, ultra.
Right.
Um, which was, which was great.
Um, so yeah, I, I loved that whole sequence.
Trey: Yeah, that shot was incredible.
Um, you know, you talked about this feeling of it being infinity war,
where they're overwhelming Thanos.
I honestly think there is a blending of both infinity war and that final fight
and end game, because yes, you had them all attacking infinite alternate ones,
but in another smart thing that they did, which I'm realizing I'm a sucker for an
action sequences is they gave us that clear communicated goal of the soul stone.
And so when they had that shot where the soul stone was on the ground centered
in frame, and everybody was like fighting around it, that was fantastic.
And like that told you more and that one static shot than anything.
I think of like, like I didn't need to see all the cool stuff.
I'm glad we got it, but that shot communicated so much and I
Jude: loved it.
It did fantastic.
You know what?
I had a thought, um, I think it was all trons foot, but when I first watch,
I thought they were bringing back.
The Nazi stopper Stomper or whatever it is.
Steve Rogers was in Hydra,
Trey: Thumper, Nazi
Jude: stump or whatever.
Um, but like, like I thought that foot and I thought like he was going to show up.
You know, but within and realize that that's all true.
Uh, so yeah, but like you're right, that was beautiful way
Trey: to do that.
So we're still sticking with the action sequences, but I think we can go ahead
and transition into act three, which will take us from, uh, realizing that
the plan didn't work and in leaving black widow and captain Carter to enact
their plan, to upload Zola into Ultron man, like everything leading up to that
amazing moment where black widow takes a shot and captain Carter like jumps on
the back of Ultron to lift the helmet.
Another one of those thrilling sequences from start to finish.
It was wonderful that again, all the emotional weight of this episode is
built into them because that is where the work has been done for this episode.
And so when, whenever you have that moment where, uh, Kappas is telling
that the, you know, I've got the shield, you've got the sword and Nat replies
with like, oh, you know, it's a USB arrow, but I get, I love the wordplay.
Net has no idea how profound that statement is, but because of what I was
saying earlier about, because I'm sold on these characters, it works so well.
And it just, it it's a nice rally charge to the end.
Yeah.
Jude: Right?
Like that, that through line was fantastic.
I love the, the callback there.
Like that's, I mean, that's what good storytelling does.
Right.
You set things up, um, for later it's it's the, oh, what was I going to refer to?
Oh, it's into the spider verse, the shoulder touch, you know,
like doing moments like that.
Is fantastic.
And that, and that just worked perfectly, you know, uh, for this episode
Trey: and they did it with no protection spell.
Like I love what they like it.
I know captain Carter has the serum, but in the face of a threat,
like infinite old Tron, it's, it's more to the, what that work.
They did last episode where you have your two underpowered individuals
being the last remaining hope.
I love that they took away that protection spell and showed them still
willing to do the final heroic act like that speaks volumes about them.
Jude: Oh yeah.
You know, I, I will say when I first watched it, um, I have a
note here and the note is actually a thought from my first watch.
And so, so I wanted to put her down, but like, here's my second watch.
I know how it is.
I did think to myself, it's like, so.
The savior is the Nazi Hydra agent.
That's an interesting choice.
Okay.
Um, so I do like how they ended it and he wasn't quite the savior.
It was just like, okay, we're going, we're going to do this.
Um, but yeah, so
Trey: I'm right there.
Like, I'm so glad you brought that up because that was my next point.
This is where the episode really starts to lose me.
And what I had written is like, like Eric's betrayal.
Like I get it, it's in line with his character.
It's even a through line to what he wants because his reasoning is
like, we could save our worlds.
Like this is what old Tron owes us to the least.
And so, you know, I follow that, but to have the whiplash of them succeed, Eric
betraying them, Zola, betraying them.
And then having that fight happen all within like five minutes.
It's like this episode is swinging harder than the episode
limit gives them space to do.
And so as much as I wasn't doing this episode, it keeps coming back to that same
limitation of like, just focus on this.
Like they already did such a wonderful job with Nat and cap and that sequence, like,
we didn't need all this fuss here again.
No,
Jude: I'm with you completely with you on that.
Trey: So I dunno, maybe this is why we're not doing a wrap-up episode.
We want to spare you another week of us being like,
Jude: yeah.
Um, but yeah, and it was a nice touch at the end where they went
back to the pub and it was that familiar place for all of us.
That's where they met and they got to part ways.
But I, I did like the tone of it that even though there are partying ways,
even though they saved questionably, uh, they saved the universes.
Right.
They were still going back to the reality of their universe,
you know, and I liked that.
Trey: Yeah.
Again, it's I guess what I'm learning.
I love when they can communicate the most about the characters with the most minimal
amount of work, you know, you're right.
They all go back to their respective universes.
You had that lovely moment where camp is looking at the picture
of Steve and wanting to go back to that part of her universe.
But the watcher insists that like, no, your universe needs
you more than, you know.
And so she takes off and that leaves us with Nat, who I'm so glad.
She pushed against the universe and going back to her universe
because there's nothing there.
And what we learn in that moment is like, you get to wrestle with like, how can you
have a character, like the watcher who as Nat put it, did you make popcorn while
you watched old Tron destroy my universe?
Like there is rightful anger there, and then to turn around and get what we've
been suspecting of all season of that empathy and care that the watcher has for
the little people within the multitudes of the universe where yes, he still had
to send her back, but he broke his oath enough to send her back to a universe
in which they had lost their widow.
So she gets to find.
Uh, you know, that family again, like I liked that they were
able to show he bends the rules.
Uh, cause in contrast it would have been horrible have sent her back
to the universe where she was left.
Yeah.
So, but yeah, you get, you get that, that compassion from the watcher,
which is to put a bow on what I
Jude: was saying.
So I have one note left that plays off of that, but I was
saving that frustrate thoughts.
Well, I,
Trey: all my notes, I think anything I got left could be stray thoughts.
So if we want to go into straight thoughts, we can just do that.
All right.
Jude: Cool.
So go ahead.
Okay.
This is my, really, my only one main stray thought was what world
did Tasha go back to episode three?
Trey: It was the episode where all the, all the Avengers
Jude: died.
Okay.
Fury was there.
CAPP was there.
Both cabs.
What do you mean both
Trey: caps?
Captain Marvel, captain America.
Jude: Oh, that's right.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, when you said both capsules, like, I don't remember seeing Peggy, uh, see it.
I'm doing it stupid.
What if, um, go read the article, like, but yeah, so yeah, I, okay.
I guess it was that it was, I guess it was that one.
Um, cause in my head, like I was like, no, I'll leave interest died.
So where is she at?
Trey: Okay.
Yeah.
Cause Loki, Loki even has that line where he was like, you and your
replacement Avengers could never stop me.
And then she like jumped, kicks him and takes over his mind.
Jude: Hmm.
I don't know why I didn't put that together.
Trey: Did you ever, did you go back and watch the post credit
Jude: scene?
I did.
And I
Trey: enjoyed it.
Okay.
Uh, I think that's also telling of where we're at in this series
that we both missed the stinger.
Jude: Well, in fairness, I missed it because I watched it this morning.
Um, and I had a doctor's appointment to get to.
And so like, I.
It was like, okay, the episode's done.
I can go back and check it.
I got to get out of here.
I'm running behind.
So, gotcha.
Trey: I tried fast-forwarding to see if there's anything, but
I, I fast forward too quickly.
And so I missed and I was like, okay, just went about my day.
So, but, uh, yeah.
Do you have any more
Jude: straight thoughts?
I thought thoughts.
I had a thought straight thought.
Trey: Uh, my stray thought, uh, you know, w you talked about like,
okay, it's weird that the Nazi scientist ends up being the hero.
Another thing I bumped into is, you know, it's hard to call
a character who destroyed the entire year of their universe.
Like strange did a redeemed character, but it is pretty cool that they were able to
get him to bring back the captured Zola and Killmonger and have him watch over it.
So I think that's the closest we're going to get to him being redeemed.
But I, I like.
Jude: Yeah, that's interesting.
That's interesting.
Just like, I didn't take that as him being redeemed, you know, but he is.
Did you know, I mean, he's doing a good thing.
I mean, I, but like, I, I w well, let me finish this thought, like I read, go
back to captain America, winter soldier.
It was like, yeah.
I kind of bought into this idea of no, of not full redemption, but just
bringing Walker back and I can accept it.
Um, so it's just interesting that, that my intuition there was kind of a, okay.
You're redeeming them and Dr.
Strange, I'm like, okay, you know, you're, you're in prison already.
So you might as well watch this prison.
Trey: I guess the reason I chose redeem is because it's a similar fate to what he
could have had if Dormamuu never bargained with them, like strange was willing to
sacrifice himself in that infinite pause.
And he's doing it again here.
So I, that's why I meant like the, it's hard to call the character like that
redeemed, but for whatever close word we can get to, I think they found it.
And I won't bring us back down the rabbit hole of relitigating
fucking in the winter salts.
Jude: No, but I'm just saying, I'm thinking of myself, the interesting
thing of like how I took that versus this, I got him, you know, because
clearly strange I'll be way too late learned his lesson, you know?
And then the watcher had to learn his lesson.
So now I go back and grab that strange, because I know he's
powerful enough to go to this.
Um, but there's a consequence still.
You have to come back to your universe, which is.
Just as pocket dimension that just floats there until he escapes and screws
everything up and no way home, but okay.
Trey: Uh, I think that use zoned in, on what I need from a series.
If they're going to tell a story with somebody making wrong choices, that
like they need to know it was the wrong choice and putting him back in that
quote unquote prison, I think has, is understanding that a little bit.
Yeah.
So, uh, more straight thoughts, you know, speaking of missing the in credit scene,
it was so funny to me that all day I kept seeing people say like, man, well, at
least Peggy got to see Steve again and.
Did you watch the episode?
Like that was the whole point of the washer saying your universe
needs you more than you think she didn't go back to with Steve.
And so, because I miss the credit, I was like, I thought I
was like, what are these people?
They don't know what they're wanting.
And then when I finally got home and rewatched the
Intacct, it was like, oh, okay.
That makes more sense.
Jude: Well, I mean, honestly I read that is like, she has yet to
see Steve and I'm expecting Steve to take the winter social role.
Trey: Well, you know, that's the other thing, like the tone of the series.
And I keep trying not to beat this drum, but the tone of the series is so all
over the place, because the way black widow leads into it, she's like you get
it, you're going to need to see this.
And they get all the way there.
It's kind of this foreboding energy.
And then.
Whenever the reflection reveals that is the hydro Stomper.
You see Natasha from behind Capco, like sh I forgot exactly what she says.
Oh, she goes, someone's inside.
And the way that she said it with a smile on her face is
like, implying this happy ending.
But that can't be the case.
Like, I dunno, it's, it's a weird scene.
I didn't like it as much as you did.
No, I get that.
But yeah, so I got one more, uh, stray thought and, uh, we've talked
about it a little bit, but you know, my first reaction to this episode was
man, Benedict, Cumberbatch felt odd in this voice acting this episode,
but when I thought about it and how much time he spent alone in his little
pocket universe, it makes sense that we'd have no social cues whatsoever
after being isolated for so long.
Yeah.
So maybe it was a choice
Jude: and it's kind of like the door thing.
We don't know exactly how in theory he was there a long time bargaining
with Dormamuu, you know, in, in the, in the, in the grand scheme of things.
And we'd have no idea.
And before the watcher came back, what that felt like in terms of time, you
know, um, cause like not to get, you know, avoiding, like to get really philosophical
or really like scientific right.
You know, and its base, you know, to water it completely down.
And I, and I realized I'm doing that time is a measurement of change.
Right.
And.
If he's in this pocket vacuum where nothing changes and it's constant.
Like every moment, like, like is, is there there's outside of like, I just did
this, but no one was, I'm only aware of.
You know, it's like there there's no real time in that sense.
It's, it's, it's had to have driven them crazy
Trey: at some point.
And I think that's all wrapped up in a speech and like the meaningless and
the endlessness of nothing and infinite and it's a child had to come in.
So yeah, that was a, that was something I didn't pick up
on until my, my second watch.
But yeah, that that's going to do it for, uh, our stray thoughts.
Uh, and you know, when I was thinking about it today, while outlining this
episode, it's going to be a bit before we have our listeners first takes.
Cause it won't be until Hawkeye in November that, uh, we get to do this.
So before we jump into these, I just want to say for everybody
that's been partaking in this.
Thank you so much for sending in all your thoughts on the episode.
Jude: I'm excited about bringing those back.
Trey: Yeah.
But as far as this episode goes, this was some of the first takes that people
had after we reached out on social media, uh, starting with this one, uh, this one
comes in from friend Daniel on Instagram and it says fun, fast and surprising.
And it sounds like somebody took up the three word challenge, his
review after last week's episode,
Jude: the next one, definitely fun.
A couple of moments hit in my feelings wishes.
Way longer, um, emphasis on way, I guess is mine.
I'm not sure.
Um, but that's TK on
Trey: Instagram.
Uh, the next one comes in on Instagram from Ben dot Mattie loved it.
The fighting was really well done and had a lot of drama.
The animation made it look really cool.
And I, and I think I'm right there.
Like, even though it's something we glaze over in our views, I think
we're both in agreement of the fighting and the sequences being
really well done throughout a lot of
Jude: these episodes.
And I, I really liked that.
We took the time and you took the time in particular to highlight the stone,
just the view of just the stone and you know, what's going on and you get that
feeling, but you don't actually see it.
It was anyways, it was really well done.
Um, So, yeah, the next one, uh, from Instagram as well, the Tony snow four
ended perfectly for the first installment.
Also never trust to kill monger in any universe you would think.
I agree.
Like you would think the watcher had watched enough universities
to, to figure that out.
What I mean, maybe, I guess he kind of did like, you know, he was expecting.
But
it
Trey: was all part of the plan,
Jude: part of the plan.
Trey: Uh, this next one comes in from, oh, shoot podcast on Insta,
uh, quote, I was underwhelmed.
I felt like it was a bit of a weaker episode and needed something more.
Um, you know, I, even though I was a little bit warmer on this
episode that it seems to be of their reception, the wanting something
more, I think is definitely a ringing, uh, drum beat within this series.
Um, I think when I responded to it on the Instagram, I specifically
said, yeah, a longer episode goes a
Jude: long way.
Yeah.
And I want to go back to something, a friend Daniel said to us, you know, like
his, the issues he had with this episode.
And I know, I realize that.
Red one that said fun, fast and surprising, but the issue
which Daniel, Daniel, uh, but the issues he was dealing with.
And I, and I feel like I was in the same boat was more series related.
Then this episode and the episode by itself was, yeah, I agree.
It was fun.
Fast, surprising, you know?
Um, so yeah, so thank you to, oh, shoot podcast.
Trey: And just as a quick note.
Oh, shoot.
Podcast is a, another great Marvel podcast.
They're not strictly Marvel, but they have started with the MCU.
So if you're looking for more great MCU podcasts, you should check them out.
They're really good.
Jude: So our next one, the action sequences have always been a
highlight of the series from.
This episode, certainly delivered on that, but everything else is just okay.
And kind of rushed.
Also, the watcher is a Pokemon trainer.
I choose you.
And that's from kin on Twitter.
I'd love that imagery.
Trey: I'm so glad that can put that.
Uh, the hashtag I choose you is fantastic and yes, it's all.
I'm going to see the watcher as now,
Jude: and you know, somebody going, gonna Photoshop in the Ash Pokemon
hat on top of the watcher now,
Trey: and I know what I'm doing this, uh, our final first
take comes in from just Mr.
Melts on Twitter and it reads quote.
Action sequences were fantastic.
Great callbacks and tie-ins to pass films, including my favorite film of the
franchise, captain America, the winter soldier still have issues with the watcher
and his voice acting, but whatever I give it 4.5 out of five infinity stones.
Jude: I like that rating system
Trey: meat too.
It's such a fun way to bring it back in.
Although I got to wonder what happened to that sixth infinity stone.
Jude: Hmm.
I was wondering what, which infinity stone we're cutting in half.
Trey: Well, it's gotta be the ether.
It's the most liquidy of them.
All.
Jude: Very true.
That's true.
True.
So do you have ether half full or half empty tray?
Trey: It depends on which store universe you're looking at.
Party proofreader
Jude: and the ether is the reality stone.
So it works perfectly for this.
So yeah, it's all coming together.
We're all part of the MCU now, tray.
Thank you multiple.
Yeah,
Trey: I can't wait for my check,
whether it's a reality check or a check check.
We'll never
Jude: know.
Thank you.
Just Mr.
Melton.
Thank you everyone else.
You've given you your first reactions, looking forward to
doing this again with Hawkeye.
Trey: Yeah.
And of course, if you want to get in on that action, it, you should be following
us on Twitter and Instagram at NC.
You need to know, uh, we always put up our pre spoiler thoughts, which is where
you can share your thoughts as well.
So, yeah, I think that's going to do it for this episode, you know, before
we jump into the ultra, I do want to go ahead and state this here clearly.
Uh, we've already mentioned, we're not going to do a wrap-up episode of what if,
uh, just to save everybody the one more episode of us being conflicted, but what
is coming next week is the meta episode.
Traditionally, we always let those kind of just stealth
drop and let it be a surprise.
But whenever I was editing this one, I told you that it has been
hilarious to me that we just jumped right into it and explained nothing
about what the meta episode is.
So for any of the new covers that may have found us during this, what
if series a, it's a bit of a break?
Uh, I'm not going to say exactly what goes on in there, but it's as Jude
has lovingly put it before podcasting
Jude: self-care.
Yep.
Trey: So, uh, you know, stay with us through a week of podcasting self
care and be right back to our Marvel related content the following week.
Yeah.
So that's going to do it.
If you want to reach out to us on social media, you can always reach us at MC you
need to know on Twitter and Instagram.
It's a great place to connect with us and have a more active
role in shaping this podcast.
Uh, we've been doing great work to put out extra content that doesn't make it
into the podcast feed, as well as giving you access to our pre spoiler thoughts
on the day of, if not the day after that an episode drops, uh, you can also.
Help us vote on what quote from whatever episode we happen to be reviewing that
week will be the title for our podcast.
So if you want to get in on that action, make sure you're following
us at those places so that you can help us make a better show.
Yeah.
Jude: And of course, uh, you can scroll down to the bottom of the
show notes, click the link to join our discord, where you can find a
community of people interested in MCU, pop culture, uh, working out and, uh,
sharing pictures of food and pets.
There's all kinds of stuff there.
Uh, when you go there for the Marvel content, make sure you click on
the role of channel, click on the eye emojis, cause that'll get you
access to all the spoiler channels.
Um, of course, as always we ask for feedback and ratings
and reviews are super helpful.
Um, but the best feedback you can give is the word of mouth feedback
and share this pod with a friend.
Trey: We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song, which
is his rendition of the Avengers theme.
You can find more of his work on a SoundCloud, which is linked
in the show notes as well.
Well, that's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening and Jude.
Thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you tray.
We'll see you all next week.
so something that just dawned on me and it didn't happen because like I
go through two stages of where you and I are just chatting and then we're
recording and that's a different layer.
And then the next layer is whenever I do the hello and welcome back, like, it
feels like stepping into a new threshold, the camping trip that I'm going on next
week, leech is going to be there as well.
And she was teasing me.
She's like, oh, when we're there at the camping trip, I'm totally
gonna make you do the podcast.
And so whenever I did that, you ready?
One, like I was like, oh, this is my podcast book.
Jude: Well, oh, oh, okay.
So speaking of, well, um, I was editing the last week episode.
Right.
Um, and, and, uh, you know, cause was like to Tracy.
Well, Jude again,
he's like, I don't know.
Let me go look.
And I went back to the beginning.
He was like, well, Jude, if she just rolled her eyes,
shook her head and walked away.
Trey: Oh man.
Jude: Tough crowd.
I know.
Right.
Trey: Listen, the well.
I've got two thoughts off of that.
The slash film cast is a huge inspiration for me when it comes to
the way I envisioned this podcast too.
And there's a reviewer by the name of Jeff Cannata where he has made it a
thing that whenever they give him their like first thoughts of the movie, before
they go into spoilers, that he gives everything in the form of a Limerick.
And so whenever the host is like, all right, well, what'd
you think of the episode Jeff?
Jeff goes, well, Dave, I guess you could say that the, uh, my thoughts
could be best summed into Limerick.
And so that, well, just stems from like listening to him do that.
And so I I've lifted that into the way that I do with you, but the
second thought is whenever I started doing it, That was like, I don't
think we ever had the intention of having guests on week after week.
So it became so much more apparent as like four weeks in a row.
It was like, well, tiered.
Well do,
Jude: I'm fine with it.
I think it's funny.
Um, it there, but it was just, I was just the changes you want you to get?
Oh, that's fantastic.
But it's you can't stop now.
You're the king of intros.
Trey: No, like, it feels weird to not have the, well, the, well is my anchor.
Jude: Like you can't stop now.
Trey: Yeah.
Now it's all I'm going to be thinking about whenever I do.