[rob]: Welcome to dear watchers, a comic book omnivers podcast where we do a deep dive into
[rob]: the multiverse
[guido]: Traveling through the storylines before and after that, inspired or took inspiration
[guido]: from this week's alternate universe
[guido]: and your watchers on this, our thirty ninth journey through the omniverse of comic
[guido]: books are me, Guido.
[rob]: and me, Rob of the opera.
[guido]: That was a little bit of a a more straightforward one. I
[guido]: have to say, not much creativity there, but
[rob]: Yes, that's true.
[rob]: I could be. I guess the Phantom of the comic bookstore.
[rob]: So what is new this week? Geto?
[guido]: well, we're back in an else worldorls, which will
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: introduce in just a moment, and last week our else world's visit was quite fun and
[guido]: hopefully people enjoyed it. We saw lots of comments about Daylay created equal. We
[guido]: also have posted. as we mentioned last week, we are commissioning artists that we
[guido]: love to do art from our conversations and the weird worlds we imagine. In our
[guido]: conversations. We posted our first amalgamm art last week, and it was
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: horror based for those horror fans. And then we actually got some stickers.
[rob]: Yes, and more ha, and more horror today too that.
[guido]: Lots of horror. You're really influencing
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: our our line up here, But we got all of our art that we've commissioned so far on to
[guido]: some really nice stickers that we are getting ready to mail to a few friends of the
[guido]: show. So, if you want to get a sticker, post a review of our podcasts wherever you
[guido]: listen, send us a screen shot and we're happy to mail you a sticker that you can put
[guido]: wherever
[rob]: yes, and more stickers to come, as you
[rob]: saidly, But if you are joining us for the first time after a quick summary of our
[guido]: more art to come.
[rob]: alternate earth, we have origins of the story. Discovering what may have inspired this
[rob]: other reality, exploring multiversity, diving deeper into the alternate universe and
[rob]: pondering possibilities, examining the impact of this visit to the Multiverse and
[rob]: what's followed or our hopes for the future, And with that dear watchers, welcome to
[rob]: Episode thirty nine. Let's check out what's happening in the Multiverse with today's
[rob]: alternate universe
[rob]: and today we are posing the question, What if to face Harvey Dent was the Phantom of
[rob]: the Opera,
[guido]: No, There's a better way to say that I
[rob]: That's got a little Peter Loury, Brs, Carlov, voice, I did there somewhere.
[guido]: to put like a voice modulator on there. Yeah, well, so this alternate universe is one
[guido]: of the unknown Earths. It has not been assigned a number, Certainly, not officially,
[guido]: and not even in a fan right up that I could find. So we' visiting an unknown earth
[guido]: here and on this unknown earth, which takes place in probably the eighteen
[rob]: It's a little hard to say, but yes,
[guido]: seventies. It's hard to say, but the eighteen seventies ish. We have recluse Bruce
[guido]: Wayne, who goes out as vigilante Batman in this Victorian era and starts to fall in
[guido]: love with the understud of a ballet opera
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: Mask of the Red Death performance. In that performance, Harvey Dent is the star lead
[guido]: actor and he gets burned. half
[rob]: Ballina, really.
[guido]: of his face gets guarred. Yeah, I guess the
[guido]: Ba ballri, now, I'm not sure,
[guido]: and the rest of the story proceeds as the blot of Phantom the Opera. Basically Harvey
[guido]: is jealous. I guess of Bruce will talk about all these questions in love with this
[guido]: understud who now becomes the star because the other star had both of her legs broken
[guido]: by Phantom Harvey. And then we have lots of conversations between this star and Bruce
[guido]: about what darkness means and what it means to be the Batman and ▁ultimately, the Two
[guido]: Face Phantom of the Opera in a battle with Batman, tries to kill the ballerina fails.
[guido]: and then the love of his life goes off to Paris. Bruce's life goes off to Paris, So
[rob]: Mhm, Mhm, Yes, it's interestingcause. We, we called it. What if Two Face was the fant
[rob]: of the opera? It's kind of. what if Two Face and Bat Bad were both the phthom of the
[rob]: opera in different ways? Yes,
[guido]: well, we'll get all into what that could mean
[rob]: soo what you know, this is. of course Batman, one of the most famous comical characters
[rob]: all time, But we have not covered that man on this
[guido]: we haven't.
[rob]: podcast. We didj, but he wasn't really in those. So what is your background with that
[rob]: man and also with Harvey to face?
[guido]: So
[guido]: I think you know the baseline for Batman. This is. It was interesting and we will get
[guido]: into this when we get to like why we picked the comics we did. But that man,
[guido]: I think it's probably
[guido]: confirmed and clear has the most number
[rob]: Y.
[guido]: of stories written about him in comic books of any one,
[rob]: Yeah,
[guido]: and he, so I always knew him a lot, and I read him on and off. as we've talked a lot
[guido]: of the show about. I read in every title I could get my hands on in the nineties, so
[guido]: I read Nightfall like most people did, and I kept reading some of his titles. I would
[guido]: read Catwomman every now and again. I would read Robin every now and again and then
[guido]: I've gone in and out of D. C. And I love things like Infinite Crisis, and so I would
[guido]: read a lot of the Batman titles, then Final Crisis, which he's involved in, and then
[guido]: up through the recent years, I have never read Batman on a monthly basis. Actually,
[guido]: until the last few years with James Tnyan and Marriko Tamaaki re writing, And I love
[rob]: and for me too, I think we've talked about this, but when you go for me, not being as
[guido]: it.
[rob]: avid as a comer you are. It looks very intimidating when you go to the comic bookstore,
[rob]: and basically an entire section of new books is just dedicated to Batma,
[guido]: Yes, and Dy's notorious for for publishing licensing, producing more Batman than
[guido]: anything else. Uh, all everything else probably put together honestly in their line.
[guido]: So and then, of course, I've seen every movie. I've seen every episode of the
[guido]: animated series. I've seen every episode of the sixty six series. So I, I like
[guido]: Batman, I consume Batman. I am not a Batman expert at all. Two face, then even less
[guido]: so right, So I know, of course the two Face from the animated series, which is really
[guido]: my two face.
[rob]: Richard, Richard, Mall Bull from Nightc is to face.
[guido]: Yes, and and I of course know the the movie versions, And then I've read him in books
[guido]: like Hush, which I've read. I've read a lot of the major Batman events, but having
[guido]: not read Batman Monthly, or not gone back and revisited a lot of the Golden Age
[guido]: Silver Age, even Bronze Age Batman, I've not read a lot of Two Face, other than any
[guido]: modern major stuff that he shows up in, which is actually not that much. How about
[guido]: you
[rob]: So Baman, I really came to him originally from the Sixty six series, which obviously
[rob]: was not watching Nineteen Sixty Six, but I remember sitting on my grandpent parents'
[rob]: couch in Wehawk in New Jersey, watching the two episodes back to back constantly. I
[rob]: don't know what channel was on, but that was really my introduction to Batman for a
[rob]: long time. Myarli in movies in movie theater experiences I can remember is Batman
[rob]: Returns, which I must have seen at way too young for a movie where there's Michelle
[rob]: Fiifer in Carb Cat Woman, Sue, and Penguin biting someone's nose off. But I saw that
[rob]: and then Really Batman Forever was the first one of the first movies I can remember. I
[rob]: bought everything connected to it, the video game Tians, the book Tiyans, and then from
[rob]: there, I, only after all of that did I really get into Batman in the comics, And you
[rob]: mentioned it, but Nightfall was really the main thing I read. I've read that over and
[rob]: over again. There's still many big Batman' stories though that I have not read like the
[rob]: Long Halloween. Though I did watch the animated film, I have not watched the killing
[rob]: read The Killing Joke, so there's big gaps in Batman, but really, I think once I read
[rob]: the what? once I watched the animated series. that made me buy a lot more comics. And I
[rob]: really, I bought it if there was a cool villain on the cover, especially someone like
[rob]: the Ventroliquistan Scar Face or Misterr. ▁zaz, those really kind of psychotic
[rob]: villains. Those were the ones I really gravitated towards and bought, and then, of
[rob]: course, subsequently watched all the Nolan movies and all those things for Two face. I
[rob]: didn't. He was never my favorite villain Because he is not on the sixty six series. He
[rob]: is one of the only major villains not really represented there. but really I got to
[rob]: know him through. Timelyly. Jones is completely wacko performance in That man forever,
[rob]: and then, of course the animated series. He was never my favorite villain, I think, in
[rob]: part because he wasn't on the sixty six series. So I wasn't introduced, introduced to
[rob]: him early on, but also, and which I'm sure we' go to talk a lot about today because he
[rob]: is constantly like Mister Freeris, depicted as one of those more sympathetic villains,
[rob]: and I like the really cookooky crazy villains.
[guido]: Ga? though what we found today I'd say he is not very sympathetic, so
[rob]: That's true. Yes, I think much more than Mister Freeriies or Cat Woman. I, I would
[rob]: imagine he's much more in the truly villainist mode for a lot of that, including in
[rob]: Batman forever. Really, he has very few redeeming qualities. You never really see. The
[rob]: Harvey didn't come out there,
[rob]: but let us go into our origin stories and we're going to start actually with a movie
[rob]: today, so I'm very excited to explore this week's origins of the story,
[rob]: and first up, we are going to break convention a little bit here and actually start.
[guido]: we've done it once before. I can't. I know that I've written a movie in our show
[guido]: notes, but I can't remember what it was.
[rob]: Yes, No, I can't remember either already an episode thirty nine, and we don't remember
[rob]: our Fas episodes only thirty time. But yeah, so we're going to start with the nineteen
[rob]: twenty Five film version starring La, Shanny Senior of the Phantom of the Opera, That
[rob]: came out as I said in September, nineteen twenty five,
[guido]: It's directed by Rupert Julian, based on the novel by Gaston Loro, which was only
[guido]: from fifteen years earlier. We were both surprised to learn. and it's of course a
[guido]: universal movie. Perhaps the proto universal horror movie
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: That is in their collection. It's a silent film, And so watching it for this, I think
[guido]: was the first time I sat down and watched it. I. There's a lot of images that are
[guido]: very familiar to me, and
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: maybe I've seen it without my full attention being paid to it. But this was the first
[guido]: time I watched it. Now Earlier this year we watched the musical Because I had never
[guido]: seen the musical. I don't like that, and we're going to talk a lot. I think about the
[guido]: two, but this movie I really enjoyed watching this morning, and you, I assume had
[guido]: seen this movie prior to today.
[rob]: Yes, I had this movie on V H. S. and watched it. I remember you could buy it with music
[rob]: or not music. And I remember, as a little kid I thought well, a silent movie that can't
[rob]: be music. So I bought it without music, which is pretty deadly to sit through
[rob]: seventy eight minutes of just complete silence. It really was supposed to be made with
[rob]: music, but yes, I watch this. I was, you know, obsessed with Lan Chaney as a kid with
[rob]: all the Universal horror movies, which, as you said, this is really the prototype for
[rob]: the you know, ▁ote unote first one with Drace Thirty One, and in general, I was really
[rob]: obsessed with the Phantom of the Opera story as a whole, mostly because of the Android
[rob]: Webb musical.
[guido]: Yeah, see, and I think because I don't like that. I mean, I even said you when we
[guido]: started watching this this movie which is pretty faithful to the novel.
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: that, but I, I even said. Oh, there's two men in her life like I, I didn't even
[guido]: really retain that, Even though I have since seen the musical. I've even seen the
[guido]: prequel musical. and somehow that information doesn't stay in my head, but
[guido]: I like it. it's It's such a. At this point it's such a classic story, though, knowing
[guido]: now that it's was only written in nineteen ten, I actually suspect that the author
[guido]: must have been being inspired by a lot of stuff. It,
[rob]: yeah,
[guido]: so unlike something like a Dracula or Frankenstein being written in the nineteenth
[guido]: century, which became
[guido]: the
[guido]: story at the iconic classic story that a lot of other stories would follow and pull
[guido]: from. I suspect this was not that. I, I suspect this must have pulled from. Like the
[guido]: Hunchback of Notre Da, must have been
[guido]: earlier than this, and there's a lot of similarities. Beauty in the Beast we talked
[rob]: yeah, it was beuting the beasts as well.
[guido]: about. Yeah, so but but that's fine. It is what it is and it's It's a good story.
[guido]: It's a really important story for the context of the Elsel worlds, and I think we'll
[guido]: talk
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: more about that when we get into the alternate universe,
[guido]: But it's
[rob]: Yeah, and one one thing that this original film does, which the Andrely Weber musical,
[rob]: their subsequent versions don't do, is it really keeps the Phantom as a villain all the
[rob]: way through.
[rob]: There's really no redeeming moment for him, and in the musical there's a redeeming
[rob]: moment. But really, when you think of it in the movie Here you know, he crashes a
[rob]: chandelier on people, presumably killing. let's say at least dozens of people. He kills
[rob]: a few other people by strangulation or drowning.
[guido]: I'm not even convinced that all those extras survive the making of this movie.
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: There are a lot of chaotic scenes
[rob]: yes, yeah,
[guido]: in those with hundreds and hundreds of extras
[rob]: yeah,
[guido]: running around trampling over each other.
[rob]: yes.
[guido]: I'm not sure that everyone made it out alive.
[rob]: It's really fun when you watch movies from this era compared to now, where, of course,
[rob]: when you see big scenes with extras, most of them are not real people. their C G. I,
[rob]: and here, when you see a scene with hundreds of people, they are real And I was
[rob]: actually reading to you right before we got on. They actually was the first set that
[rob]: was actually spilt with steel in concrete, because the set this opera house had to
[rob]: support hundreds of people walking on it, and the set actually remained functional and
[rob]: around until twenty fourteen. When this stage this was built on at Universal Studios
[rob]: was finally destroyed, So it really shows you that this is a pretty grand movie for a
[rob]: seventy plus minute silent film.
[guido]: Yeah, the scale is quite large. I su. I would imagine that because it's in the public
[guido]: domain. That might be why we don't of hear about it or see it. Get like commemorative
[guido]: releases and all
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: that kind of stuff that you see the Franknsteins and the Dracul get. But you know
[guido]: that could be why. To me the story Iso. in terms of the importance for the purposes
[guido]: that we watch today. It's dark. It's interesting How how dark it is. I think there'
[guido]: some things that don't make a ton of sense to me. It doesn't make a ton of sense to
[guido]: me.
[guido]: Why
[guido]: Stein is drawn to the Phantom Like, are we supposed to believe
[guido]: that she
[guido]: is ambitious? Are we supposed
[rob]: yeah,
[guido]: to believe that she sort of likes the mystery, or are we supposed to believe that
[guido]: he's somehow enchanting, whether that
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: be supernatural or not? Although the movie, which again, is pretty faithful to the
[guido]: book makes it really clear there's nothing supernatural going on here, So I don't. I
[guido]: don't love the story. I think there's some holes and those holes actually show up in
[guido]: the else worlds For me, too. That's why I'm pointing them out here. but
[rob]: yeah, yeah, Andrew Luood weebber, actually, I think gives it a little bit better back
[rob]: story in that way where he
[rob]: has Christine, having been trained by a musician father, and the musician father is
[rob]: dead before the musical begins And she really sees the Phantom as this father figure.
[rob]: Yes, it is also romantic, so there's also that kind of twisted element.
[guido]: yeah, see, I'm not into any story that
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: establishes a familiial relationship
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: as a template for romance or sexual,
[rob]: but you know that makes me think too, where I think. Once these stories exist for as
[rob]: long as they do, what we publicly know about them does get so twisted. So
[guido]: Mhm.
[rob]: when when Universal Maid remade this movie in the Forties in color and sound, and as
[rob]: like a real kind of semi musical with Claude Reins as the Phantom, they change the
[rob]: story a lot. They did make the Phantom Christine's father, and probably more
[rob]: importantly, they made the Phantom actually scarred by acid, So a lot of us now think
[rob]: of the Phantom as being scarred by acid. He is never explained in the Androloid Weber
[rob]: musical, though he looks a lot more like the Claudrains Phantom than he does the Lan
[rob]: Chaney Phantom, which is that classic skull face. And then, of course, for to day's
[rob]: story. Yes, in this in this story Harvey is not
[rob]: scarred by acid, but he is scarred there. Yeah,
[guido]: but we'll get there.
[guido]: Yeah, I do think the alternate universe pulls a lot in, so we'll get there. So else
[guido]: on this nineteen twenty five classic film which is definitely worth anyone watching
[guido]: Be cause again.
[rob]: yeah, it.
[guido]: It's it's a good dark horror. There's one I really love. The one reveal I think was
[guido]: really well shot, and of course the make ups amazing. The, as you said, the sets are
[guido]: cool,
[rob]: Yeah, yeah, it's dreaming on Paramount Plus now, but there is also many different cuts
[rob]: of it, so if you want to see you know an true black and white or different color, you
[rob]: can sure find that on Youtube too.
[guido]: so so let's move into the comic world.
[rob]: But let's talk. Yes at the comic world and our first ever trip to Batmanville with
[guido]: Yes,
[rob]: Detective Comics volume on issue number thirty three
[rob]: from November, nineteen thirty nine. This is the Ba Man Wars against the Drgible of
[rob]: Doom, but we're really only talking about the opening parts of this story
[guido]: origin story,
[rob]: of this origin story. Yes, yes,
[guido]: cause it's the origin. Yeah, so it's written by Billfinger and Gardner Fox, pencill
[guido]: by Bob Kaine and Sheldon Muldoff, inked by Bob Canane, letter by Shelton Muldoff and
[guido]: edited by Vincent Sullivan. We read it because he debuted six issues earlier in
[guido]: Detective Comics. Twenty, seven, of course, but this is the first time his origin is
[guido]: told, and it's just on a two page total of probably twelve panels. The origin story
[guido]: of Batman is told, but it's the first time that we get the parents going to the
[guido]: movies getting killed by someone. Him witnessing it, him, then becoming
[rob]: that pearl necklace. there's always that necklace.
[guido]: Yes, which becomes really important in the else worlds. The
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: he, he has the wealth. he becomes a scientist. he trains his body and then he needs
[guido]: to disguise. He wants something that strikes fear into people and he decides a bat is
[guido]: an omen that flies in his window, and he's going to be Batman, so
[rob]: no, Alfred, Al Alfred is not there.
[guido]: Yeah, well, it's and it's kept really tight. They
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: expand on it, actually, at eleven issues later in Detective Comics Forty four a bit,
[guido]: But we wanted the first time that we get this outing into Batman's Origin, and it was
[guido]: my first time reading this early Batman. I think I've read Detective comics Twenty
[guido]: seven, Be cause that's been reprinted so many times and is just something. But this
[guido]: is might be my first time reading this, and it's fun. I mean, I' have more to say
[guido]: when we get to the next readed that we did, which is a few years later, but this one
[guido]: was fun to see and very pulp art, which I like.
[rob]: Yes,
[rob]: very very short. I'm curious why they
[rob]: how they decided to do this. Why they decided to put his origin story
[rob]: several several issues after he premiered, but also wagged. Tack it on to this other
[rob]: story. The rest of the story is about a guy who thinks hes Napoleon and looks like
[rob]: Napoleon, and he's got dirigible with a deathy.
[guido]: Well, I'm not. I mean, I'm not not an expert at Batman, but from what I know about a
[guido]: lot of the comics or the pulp transition to comic stuff, the
[guido]: no one knew what was going to hit it was. it was supposed to be ephemeral, and so
[guido]: Batman was probably put in Detective comics Twenty seven and no one had origin
[guido]: stories. No one started at the beginning. Characters were just sort of dropped in.
[guido]: Sometimes you get a slight explanation for how they have powers or why or something,
[guido]: and that would be like a one sentence thing. And then once it hit it was probably
[guido]: like Hey, let's let's add a little meat on the bones and they went back again. This
[guido]: is only five issues. After that, they're adding a little bit. Then ten issues later,
[guido]: they add some more, so I suspect it had to do with that that it, that man was not
[guido]: constructed to be a hundred year massive global phenomenon. So
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: they weren't starting the story from the beginning.
[guido]: But let's jump into the next one. Be cause.
[rob]: yes,
[guido]: That's where you got a good feel for Golden Age Detective comics,
[rob]: Yes, Learn about that character. We all know Apollo Kent,
[rob]: and
[rob]: in Detective Comics one issue number sixty six. this is from August Nineteen, forty
[rob]: two, and it's called the Crimes of Two Face.
[guido]: and it's written by Bill Finger, pencill by Bob Ke, inked by Jerry Robinson and Geor
[guido]: Joruso's letter by Irish Knop, and edited by Whitney Elsworth, We read this be cause
[guido]: it is the first appearance of Two Face
[guido]: and I have to say you know we were talking a bit about how you're going to construct
[guido]: the list for this episode and I mention to you that with any of the D, C, especially
[guido]: the Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman characters, you have to decide between if.
[guido]: You're going to choose like the Golden Age first appearance with a silver
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: Ag. first appearance, Because there's such a difference. Sometimes they abandoned
[guido]: things completely, or the characterization is different. We went with the first
[guido]: appearance of Two Face, which is Golden Age, and I am so glad we did cause it
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: is so great. Everything
[rob]: yes,
[guido]: about your face that I love, and I bet you love. Is there the look, the style, the
[guido]: the hoakiness, the silliness, the extreme nature, though of
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: the villain side of him,
[guido]: I, I loved it.
[rob]: Yeah, and did you know notice this ghto, I. This is probably a coincidence, but maybe
[rob]: it's not that this is issue sixty six, So double six. The previous issue we just
[rob]: discussed was thirty three, double three, lots of two phase, doubling two of one number
[guido]: I did notice the relationship between the two that we read were
[rob]: in there.
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: thirty three and sixty six,
[rob]: Yes, which,
[guido]: which I think is meaningless. Uh, and I suspect it was also meaningless in the
[guido]: construction of this character, Although I do love that he tries to shoehorn like all
[guido]: of his crimes are related to twos.
[rob]: yes, Yes, Well, that's what it really made me remind me of on the sixties show Which
[rob]: two faces I mentioned is not a a character. but where you have you know H. every single
[rob]: thing
[guido]: Yeah,
[rob]: is egg related, So you definitely get that nice tie in here. Everything has to be
[rob]: doubles in some way, All crimes.
[guido]: this issue. I mean, it's nineteen forty two, but this issue was
[guido]: so the Sixty six series.
[rob]: Yes, totally,
[guido]: It's so campy There's Batman and Robin Both make these ridiculous puns. I love. At
[guido]: one point that man knocks out when he's stealing people's spirs, and he says
[guido]: collecting fairs Here. See how you fare with this like there's just absurd puns that
[guido]: you can totally hear the Batman Sixty Six Adam West show using. So I, I love that.
[rob]: and it's not. it's not Robin. It's Batman, at some point, even says Holy something in
[rob]: the way that Robin than would on on the Tv show.
[guido]: Yeah, so you can see a lot of the inspiration for that That silliness is here. People
[guido]: who think that that you know really went away from the comics, obviously aren't
[guido]: familiar with these early comics that lean into that absurdity. You know, two faces
[guido]: projecting himself on the movie screen,
[rob]: I love that.
[guido]: T. To to steal everything in the movie theater, and that's really fun. And then even
[guido]: the fight occurs in front of the movie screen. First of all, they interrupt a
[guido]: Superman movie that everyone's watching in the theater
[rob]: Yes, super meta right there, Yeah,
[guido]: and then and then, But but then Batman and Two Face are fighting in front of the
[guido]: screen and it says it's like the weirdest backdrop he's ever fought in front of. And
[guido]: there's so many cool moments like
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: that, And then, of course
[guido]: I have a lot of connections through our else world al in my mind in this issue, but
[guido]: it opens with him reading Doctor Jackle and Mister
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: Hyde, So it really is right away saying like this character
[guido]: is pulling on the existing classical literature
[guido]: set up of this monster with two
[rob]: Yeah,
[guido]: faces or this perr, this man monster, dichotomy, struggle, I appreciate that.
[rob]: Jack and Mister Hyde is even really more appropriate than the Phantom because you have
[rob]: Doctor Jack as that upstanding member of society, and then Mister Hyde as the
[rob]: embodiment of evil. So you really even get it even more through that story. But as you
[rob]: said, it's very interesting that he has always been connected to the literary past in
[rob]: some way.
[guido]: Yeah, and then there's little things like something that will come up in the phantom,
[guido]: Is there's the stuff with the mirrors. That. how
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: jackal and hyd he doesn't want the mirrors around. I mean, I even just call him
[guido]: Jaquline Hyde, Two Face doesn't want the mirrors around.
[guido]: The
[guido]: other thing that I thought was really interesting was
[guido]: how faithful he is to
[rob]: the coin.
[guido]: the premise. Yeah,
[rob]: Yeah,
[guido]: well, and and the premise? I mean, Yes, the coin, but even just the idea that like
[guido]: No, if I. I, I like that those panels where like one day he decides it's going to be
[guido]: an evil day and he robs a bank, and the next day he decides it's going to be a good
[guido]: day and he gives money to a charity. Like he robs, he, he steals from another robber
[guido]: and gives it to a charity.
[rob]: yes,
[guido]: So it it, it's very interesting that that he has.
[rob]: that's
[guido]: he's really fifty fifty.
[rob]: yeah. and that's one element of the character that, as far as I know, they didn't k.
[rob]: but it is actually kind of very interesting. I almost regret that we don't see that now
[rob]: where if it does land on the good side of the coin, not only does he just not kill
[rob]: someone or do something bad, but in fact he does something good.
[guido]: Yeah, I think that's still present. It's
[rob]: Oh, is it Yeah?
[guido]: present to bid. and yeah, I think what I think. what changes what's not here?
[guido]: and
[guido]: well, his willll talk about his. The personalities the way that
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: that the two faces become two parts of his personality which is
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: not really present here.
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: He iss a little bit more unified. Although they do you talk about getting him help
[guido]: with a doctor because of him because of his, uh, his, the way his he is, and it's
[guido]: more about his scars, But it seems like there's a little mental healthll, stuff when
[guido]: Batman and Anne tries to redeem him and the the coin gets stuck in the crack And I
[guido]: like that it's the crack in the middle of his apartment, because he has the dark half
[guido]: of the apartment and the light half of the apartment, which is very.
[rob]: Yes, Yes, which is so sixties T V show, and also
[guido]: Oh no. it's very Batman forever,
[rob]: Oh and Badman forever. I mean I, two of them. I mean, I think that man forever took so
[rob]: much from the Sixty show in that way. but yes, Tomly Jones's place with Dre. Barry
[rob]: Moore and Deviy Mays are totally yes. Yeah,
[guido]: so I like that the coin gets stuck there. So yeah, I, I loved reading this and I
[guido]: think it was really important for our
[rob]: And
[guido]: our trip through the Multiarth.
[rob]: and we should say too. The reason why he can't get his face fixed is that Well, there's
[rob]: one scientist in all the or surgeon all the world who would be able to fix his face.
[rob]: However, he's been captured by the Nazis.
[guido]: Oh yes, and well, no, I think he dies in the concentration camp, but I. I. I like the
[guido]: Batman says the devils after that like,
[rob]: No, he hasn't died there. because that's what. at the end you know they talk about
[rob]: that. you know they can wait for him. maybe to be released.
[guido]: Oh, the Nazis put him into a concentration camp.
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: That's true and it is nineteen forty two. Actually,
[rob]: it is nineteen forty two, So
[guido]: Wow, so it's contemporary to the war.
[rob]: it was very striking that they included. included that. in there. An interesting. you
[rob]: know, another,
[rob]: another, another crime of the Nazis is that they're actually creating crime and Gotham
[rob]: city.
[guido]: Yeah,
[guido]: well, the last thing is you, just to mention for anyone who's not seen this and is
[guido]: not familiar, Harvey nickname Apollo Kent, it's Harvey Dent. We discovered that they
[guido]: later changed his name so he wouldn't get confused with Clarkent, but he
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: debuted as Harvey Apollo Kent,
[rob]: it makes a
[rob]: lot of sense. because why would you name another character Kent, and also why does he
[guido]: So yeah, I agree.
[rob]: need this other nickname as well,
[guido]: Yeah, but it was a lot. I recommend it. a Detective comics Thirty three is really
[guido]: oddly, not
[guido]: able to be read digitally. It's very odd for some of these early essential detective
[guido]: comics. I'm not sure why perhaps a listener knows why there are these holes and or
[guido]: why they don't want it to be out or something, but Detective Comic Sixty Six is
[guido]: available.
[rob]: So I'm going to flip my coin to see if we are going to move on to the next section of
[rob]: the podcast? Oh,
[guido]: I wish I had a coin flip sound effect.
[rob]: it landed on. Yes, So we will be exploringity,
[rob]: and today, we, as the leading as leading this meeting of the council, dear watchers, we
[rob]: have dedicated this else world to answering the question. What if Face was the Phantom
[rob]: of the Opera, and that means we are going to be exploring Mask with Aq you fancy in
[rob]: European from
[guido]: Well, Batman mask,
[rob]: October nineteen ninety seven, Oh, Batman con Mask from October nineteen ninety seven.
[guido]: So this is written by Mike Gral, who also does the pencils and the inks colored by
[guido]: Andrea Kromv, who also is credited with separations and lettered by John Casanza,
[guido]: It's edited by Mark Carlin, Denis O'neiil and Darren Vntenzo So this is the last
[guido]: episode We gave a good history of else worlds If you want to go back and listen. This
[guido]: is actually about exactly halfway in the run of else worlds, so we of good six years
[guido]: into the brand, and it's at its pe, perhaps at this time, and this was one of the
[guido]: prestige single issue format, so it's a little longer in a square bound. ▁quote unote
[guido]: trade paperback, a prestige comic, Mike Grell is a very, very well known
[guido]: D C, writer and artist started in the seventies, probably most well known for Green
[guido]: Arrow, worked on both the Green Lantern Green Arrow iconic run from the seventies,
[guido]: but then came back and did Longbow Hunters, and a lot of the Green Arrow run.
[guido]: Prior to this, I think this Nineteen ninety seven Batman mask, I think is a return to
[guido]: D C. for him. Although the majority of his career is D. C. In the two thousands, he
[guido]: does a little bit of Marvel, but then, in fact, keeps going back to D. C. and there
[guido]: wasn't much that I could find in the way of reflection on this issue. The origin of
[guido]: the issue.
[guido]: Behind the scenes, There are a good amount of microil interviews out there and I
[guido]: didn't read everything, but I did look for any references to Mask and couldn't find
[guido]: them.
[guido]: So this issue,
[guido]: I guess, let's start with overall reactions.
[rob]: Overall reactions is is kind of going to. I guess the question here, which is you know
[rob]: we were saying that this is what if Two Face was the Phantom of the Opera? It's kind of
[rob]: also, what if Batman was the Phantom of the Opera, as well, Because we take elements of
[rob]: the Phantom story,
[rob]: and and put them into both characters. So it interesting in that way, and I think that
[rob]: also makes it a little unclear. And what Miel might have been trying to say,
[rob]: because we have harve. Of course,
[rob]: he' got to revenge the obsession, love, obsession element of the Phantom, Then that man
[rob]: has a course of hiding in the shadows there. and also, of course all the setting is
[rob]: pure Phantom of the Opera, with the mirrors and the giant candles and everything like
[rob]: that, and also his relationship with the heroine. So I thought they kind of was having,
[rob]: because it was divided between those two characters. It wasn't necessarily the
[rob]: cleanest. What did you think in that regard?
[guido]: You jumped right into analysis, so
[guido]: blowing past overall opinion and experience of reading it, I. I think that's true. I
[guido]: think it. I think Bruce is expressing a little bit of the questions of the Phantom,
[guido]: the Darkness within, and all of that. I think it's you know. It's one of the Elsel
[guido]: worlds which there was a very common thing for else worlds. In fact, in some of the
[guido]: interviews I saw some of the creators, including I think Mark Wade were reflecting on
[guido]: how else world's kind of lost its way by just saying like, Oh, what if we put Batman
[guido]: in? you know, Thirteenth century Rome or something? And
[guido]: this is one of the many literary
[guido]: else worlds that were created. There's a lot of them a really good number. including,
[guido]: of course, as we talked about the first else worlds, technically, though not by Brand
[guido]: being set in Jack the Ripper. That's not literary, but it's at the same time anyway.
[guido]: I think that I like the mapping on to an existing thing. I. I really like that a lot.
[guido]: I like that. Mi Gll. wanted to say, Yeah, What if Batman happened in the times of
[guido]: Phantom of the Opera and it's not a perfect one to one. I mean, you're right.
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: I noticed, and having just watched the movie this morning, there's that amazing like
[guido]: ship bed that Christine wakes up in that the
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: Phantom has, and in this there's this huge wooden constructed bat bed. And that's so
[guido]: clearly from the movie, which means that Mike Gra is is sort of position Bruce as the
[guido]: Phantom,
[rob]: yeah, yeah,
[guido]: and so I, I agree, There's a little bit of attention there, but I also just like that
[guido]: it's not
[guido]: again. It's not a one to one mapping. It doesn't work perfectly, and that I think
[guido]: makes it a little better, makes it a little more interesting because it's not like
[guido]: just retelling Phantom of the Opera, but with Harvey Denta, the Phantom and Bruce
[guido]: Wayne as Raoul or whatever his name is.
[rob]: cause the famous real unmasking sequence really doesn't belong to Harvey. It really
[rob]: belongs to Ba, man.
[guido]: Yeah,
[rob]: It's the heroine whos unmasking came in having that famous moment from the movie and
[rob]: the musical course. Harvey gets unmassed later. But like it almost seems like an
[rob]: afterthough because it's not being done by our female lead.
[guido]: No, no, so that's what I like is. I think he's just using the elements of. In fact,
[rob]: Yeah,
[guido]: I think he's using the elements of all over the different versions of the property.
[guido]: So you had mentioned that in the Forties movie he gets burned by acid, And that's
[guido]: more what happens here. I mean he's getting burned by the stage light, but it
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: feels similar enough in that so clearly he's pulling on that And then there was
[guido]: something in this
[guido]: that made me think a lot about the musical. Um, I don't know if it was
[guido]: because in the musical he did. he is. We are supposed to believe he's sort of
[guido]: hypnotizing her right,
[rob]: yeah, I think
[rob]: yes, and no, I mean, I think that is an element of the that could be read as an element
[rob]: of the story.
[guido]: so I don't know if it's that. I don't know. I, I know there was stuff in here that I
[guido]: saw that I was like. Okay. That wasn't in the nineteen twenty five movie. I don't
[guido]: know if it's in the Nineteen Forties movie, but it definitely is in the musical. So
[guido]: it feels like he's pulling from. Yeah, everything we know of Phantom of the Opera,
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: and then building this slightly different story in this world.
[guido]: And and I really enjoyed it. for that reason. A lot. I enjoyed the questions it
[guido]: posed.
[guido]: The
[rob]: Well, I,
[guido]: pearls you had mentioned earlier, come up as like a symbol because
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: he refers to his origin, Then the main character who is Laura? In this. For some
[guido]: reason
[guido]: she leaves and leaves the pearls that Bruce had given her.
[guido]: He left with a loss, and this strand of pearls on the ground.
[rob]: Yeah, he has this amazing line about his origin story, which we we see briefly, but he
[rob]: says on a street cornering, Gothha, murder was the midwife. My birth cry was a cry for
[rob]: vengeance.
[guido]: a lot of the writing I love. I
[rob]: Yeah,
[guido]: really love
[guido]: it. It's over written in that perfect way with the
[rob]: yeah,
[guido]: flourishes and the flare. It's not over and it's actually quite a sparse written
[guido]: piece.
[rob]: yes,
[guido]: perhaps because Gll was doing the art
[rob]: art as well, Yeah,
[guido]: also, and art is amazing. I love the art.
[rob]: yes, the art is very. I. It reminded me I had to look at up the the Nineteen Eighty
[rob]: Nine comic book adaptation. The art is by G, uh, Jerry Orderway, but it has a similar
[rob]: style to that where I don't know it. Just it just walks the perfect line between,
[rob]: little more sketchy, a little bit more cartoony, but also has that darkness to it. I
[guido]: See it feels. it feels very vertigical to me.
[rob]: think it works really well here.
[rob]: Mhm. I can
[guido]: Verig. Coms.
[rob]: see that too. Yeah, and I think in In that. In what you were saying, too, Gto, I think
[rob]: like what does work really well Here is this could have easily. They could have easily
[rob]: gone super dark super bleak with this, but there is a lightnessing tone, not really
[rob]: joky, but it remains kind of almost at that serial pace, which is interesting to think
[rob]: that the original Phantom novel was originally serialized before was put into novel
[rob]: form. This actually does have that kind of fast paced. you know, slightly lighter
[rob]: element to it. It doesn't have that super dark Fra Miller Batman feel to it.
[guido]: No, we just talked about with Eworld's last week. That else, worlds
[guido]: seem to generally have a little bit more room to breathe. And what? if so Thejil a
[guido]: created equal as these two forty page issues, so it gives you a lot more density in
[guido]: world building. and in this case, while this is a a longer
[guido]: extended prestige issue, I think it's in fact longer. Because of the art. He's doing
[guido]: so many huge two page double page spreads with these splash pages, these broken
[guido]: panels, Which is clearly why Andre Kromov is credited with separation right. He
[guido]: probably helped with a lot of the design of Grill's art, but it. it's very cool
[guido]: looking and so yeah, this this doesn't extend. I think it would have been darker. My
[guido]: point is is, I think the world would have been darker, heavier, bleaker,
[guido]: and perhaps just a little bit much if the expanded space had been used for story and
[guido]: plot and dialogue, But it's in fact used for art here, and so I think
[rob]: Yes, Mhm,
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: that keeps the story a little briefer, but visually stunning.
[rob]: and on that I would imagine Mirailway back and rew the Lawn Chaney movie, because
[rob]: Harvey's outfit is dressed exactly like the Red Death outfit in Theney movie, which
[rob]: they also used in the musical. The overall aesthetic of Actually, Batman's Know, Layer
[rob]: of the back cave looks very similar.
[guido]: That opening panel looks like the set you were
[guido]: describing in the Nineteen twenty Five scene, Because you have you know, even though
[rob]: Mhm. Yeah, totally
[guido]: it's whatever it is, The eighteen seventies, you do have Alfred come down to the
[guido]: backtcave in like a very old tiny elevator. If those even existed. I'm not
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: even sure. But so you and then you have all the like stillilac types, and so it
[guido]: creates a huge multi
[guido]: multilevel cave, which is what's in the Nineteen twenty Five movie And it's shown a
[guido]: few times Because he kidnaps her and they run down it and they go back and forth and
[guido]: it looks like a maze or a
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: ▁zigzag. So I, I think for sure he was trying to do an omage to the visuals of the
[guido]: Nineteen twenty Five movie,
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: which is really cool.
[rob]: Yeah, overall, I think I think this is definitely
[guido]: Yeah, what else do you think about it?
[rob]: worth worth of. Read. Its interesting, too. We were mentioning a lot about the Sixties
[rob]: show when we were talking about the A Golden Age and uh, I didn't get a chance to
[rob]: research this before we started recording. So if anyone listening wants to write to us
[rob]: on Twitter, I'd love to hear when Chif Ohara was introduced into comic World, because I
[rob]: thought he was just a Sixties T V show character, but we actually get to see him as
[rob]: like an old Ty, Bobby, British Bobby type.
[guido]: Well, and for sure, I mean, this is Nineteen Ninety seven. I thought for sure Grell
[guido]: was echoing him, because he even says like byglly by Gosh begara or something. so. F.
[rob]: Yes, it's like catch phrases from the show
[guido]: Yeah,
[rob]: Tv show. Yeah,
[guido]: so whether he predated the Adam West series or not, I think Michrael is definitely
[guido]: writing
[rob]: oh yeah,
[guido]: Ohara that we knew from the Nineteen sixty Six
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: T V show, which was really fun.
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: Yeah, I think
[guido]: I think it added a lot of depth
[guido]: making the story allusion to the existing story of Phantom the Opera,
[guido]: which is not widely enough known that I know it very well.
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: I. I, using that as using that as a measure of how many people know the story,
[guido]: Although I guess tens of millions have seen the Broadway show, but I think it's a
[guido]: good vehicle to explore Bruce. So what? That's What's interesting about this is and
[guido]: will get into this mo. get to our next issue. But it explores Bruce more than
[guido]: explores Harvey as a
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: character in this and
[guido]: I'm okay
[rob]: it.
[guido]: with that, but it. it does make it different from the source material. in that way.
[rob]: If anything, I like, I would have liked to have seen this actually, Ex, not super long,
[rob]: but expanded over. maybe just one more issue. Give it a little bit more room to breathe
[rob]: to explore. Ha, both of those characters. Because as you just said, most of Harvey,
[rob]: you know, we only see a hand, you know as he's you know, he does Vvaria, Elizabeth
[rob]: Berkeley, knocking the one main Vllerina down, and uh, to get the the Herund study, he
[rob]: kills the one guy really well with the like by putting like beer barrels, kills them
[rob]: with like beer barrels. Maybe,
[rob]: but most of it we isn't that cool. Yeah, yeah, but most
[guido]: Yeah, and then it says mysterious Death in the newspaper
[guido]: Bizarre mishap,
[rob]: of it we just see him on the on the fringes until kind of the the climax, and most of
[rob]: it is the Bruce story. So it' been fun to have it. give it. Give it. maybe a little bit
[rob]: more room to breathe there. Maybe see like what is Harvey, And you know our female
[rob]: protagonists relationship. Really, Because that's kind of glossed over. and you were
[rob]: saying that's kind of a problem with a lot of these phantom stories.
[guido]: So I'm guessing that's your answer to. If you want to go back, we've never gone back.
[guido]: There are some else worlds, as I mentioned in the last episode. There are some else
[guido]: worlds that got sequels got follow ups, or sometimes that universe has shown up in
[guido]: the multi verse of D. C. This is not one that I could find any
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: information or evidence that it has ever been seen again. So you on a slightly longer
[guido]: story.
[guido]: I don't know if you want to go back otherwise. for more stories in this world, I
[guido]: mean, I think it is an interesting, because the focus is on Bruce.
[guido]: There. There are potentially more stories to tell
[rob]: yes,
[guido]: here with Bruce becoming more of the Phantom analoge,
[guido]: Because
[rob]: yp,
[guido]: Harvey is is almost a a cipher. It's almost a misdirrection that Gll is doing here
[guido]: where we think that Two Face is going to be the Phantom of the Opera, and
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: while he takes on the role of murderer of villain
[guido]: of trying to seduce this person, Bruce is in fact the Phantom of the Opera, the one
[guido]: struggling with the darkness, the one struggling with, You know, In the old movie
[guido]: Phantom always talks about, Um,
[guido]: Bringing the love will bring out the good in him, and Bruce and Laura have that here,
[guido]: so that's how Bruce becomes more of the Phantom, I say so. I think there are more
[guido]: stories to tell in this world by the right person revisiting it. I don't need it. I
[guido]: don't necessily want. I don't have the ideas. but I think there are more stories to
[guido]: tell
[rob]: yeah, yeah, well, and typically, in a lot of other Phantom adaptations, including the
[rob]: Mo the Lan Chaneing movie and in the Manre, ▁lloyd Webber, the Phantoms
[rob]: fate is often left ambiguous Here. It's It's pretty clear and it has the course. it
[rob]: ends with the great,
[rob]: The The Thing that's in all phantom versions, which is the chandelier falling down. But
[rob]: here Harvey is on the chandelier and it's pretty clear from the arc that he. He also is
[rob]: dying in
[guido]: Explodes. Yeah,
[rob]: the explosion as well, so I don't think he's still around, but I guess you could still
[rob]: maybe work out some kind of story where he did live and he's extracting his revenge.
[guido]: but you don't even need him. I mean again, Bruce is the Phantom
[rob]: True.
[guido]: Bruces, Now the one that we are led to
[guido]: understand struggles with darkness and needs to figure out how to
[rob]: Yeah,
[guido]: deal with that, which is of course the core of Batman's character. So
[rob]: Yes, as we, Yeah, as we kind of move into our, our, our, our future issues. I think one
[rob]: of the things we talked about is that is such so inherent to the Batman character And
[rob]: you even saw it in the new The New Mat Reeves movie, which is Oh, Who is the real? Is
[rob]: Bruce, the real person or his Batman, the real
[guido]: Mhm,
[rob]: person, and that idea of the mask, where Harvey always has this scarred face. He's
[rob]: almost always wearing a mask, but Bruce can take it off. But who's the real you know
[rob]: monster there? and I think that's something you've seen so much in the Batman Lor.
[rob]: but we will
[rob]: dide our shand are falling chandelier into the future
[guido]: I knew you were going to struggle for one. there.
[rob]: and we will ponder some possibilities.
[rob]: Soo. how did you come up with this list of possibilities this week?
[guido]: Well, surprise to our listeners, you did, but I'll give. I'll give some context and
[guido]: then you can explain,
[rob]: One one is thirty nine. That's going to be my new schedule. Yeah,
[guido]: but ill, I'll give some context. So while we were looking at what the else world
[guido]: story was doing,
[guido]: We, obviously it focused more on that man, but that man again has
[guido]: thousands of stories.
[guido]: hundreds of huge stories, and certainly at least dozens iconics of iconic stories. A
[guido]: lot of which deal with that premise that the else worlds is is tugging at is pulling
[guido]: from. in terms of
[guido]: what you just said, Who wears the Ma. Is he the mask or is he Bruce? Is he darker as
[guido]: he light? What pulls them out of the darkness? Why does he do this? All those
[guido]: questions are such a part of Batman that it felt like that was not the the strand of
[guido]: this else world to pull at for our sakes. Because it would just be too big and too
[guido]: overwhelming, so he decided to focus in on two face. But as we talked about in the
[guido]: beginning, neither of us know to face particularly well, so you did a little
[guido]: research. And how do you come upon the issue that we read?
[rob]: yes, I was looking up some of the most iconic Two Face stories and Two Face, Probably
[rob]: more than anyone else has had thingsckon, and things change sometimes that he' put back
[rob]: to normal. But I was looking for a story that had a romantic element, so I was able to
[rob]: actually find a story where Two Face has this romantic obsession with another
[rob]: character, who in this case is actually Renee Montoya, And that romantic obsession is
[rob]: something that is always a through line throughout all of the different Phantom
[rob]: stories. So it's a pretty uh, as good of a match as I think we can findide, that it's a
[rob]: pretty good one here. So this is Gotha Central volume one, issue ten from October, two
[rob]: thousand and three, and this is half a life. Part five.
[guido]: Its, written by Gregrocka pencilled and inked by Michael Lark, colored by Lelod,
[guido]: lettered by Willi Schubert, and edited by Matt Adisson and Nachi Castro, And as Rober
[guido]: described why we read it, I'll add a few things that come from the plot. So he
[guido]: kidnaps Rename Anoya, who he's been blackmailing outs, is a lesbian, essentially
[guido]: black mailing. I guess there's a mystery. She's an accused murderer, taking the rap
[guido]: for something. one of Two Faces gang. Did she kidnaps him and it's this lavish,
[rob]: He kidnaps her.
[guido]: very Victorian manner. What.
[rob]: He kidnaps her. You said she kidnaps
[rob]: Himly. who wears the mask.
[guido]: Oh yes,
[guido]: who kidnaps who? Um,
[guido]: So it's it looks. It has these long red curtains. There's a chandelier. He is like
[guido]: forcing her to eat. I mean, it's very beauty in the beast, very Phantom Christine,
[guido]: for sure, And then
[guido]: the one reveal. that also is huge. As then she pulls the curtains down to escape, and
[guido]: they discover their underground. In fact, so
[rob]: Yes, classic Phantom, move there.
[guido]: so, I don't know how much Roka or Lark were conscious of an influence a Phantom of
[guido]: the Opera on this, but there is definitely some visual elements that we didn't even
[guido]: know about going into this. What did you think of the story?
[guido]: Otherwise
[rob]: I really like it. Obviously we're coming into it in in the middle of this arc, but I
[rob]: really thought, kind of going back to what we were saying before about two face that
[rob]: sometimes he can be maybe a little bit more sympathetic. and here I think like he has
[rob]: some really great
[rob]: evil moments and
[guido]: he's horrible.
[rob]: yet you can. Yeah, Yeah, totally yeah. she's trying to appeal to the Harvey that she
[rob]: used to know, but really she' just getting you know this evil, this evil two face
[rob]: throughout it.
[guido]: Yeah, it's very interesting to me how
[guido]: horrible he is Now this, I think leans more into what's ▁ultimately added to his
[guido]: character. This idea that he has sort of two personalities,
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: because even the speech bubbles will change when
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: if we slit them as Harvey and two face, when their two face, the speech bubbles have
[guido]: jagged lines around them. and when it's Harvey, they have smooth lines around them.
[guido]: But whether it's Harvey or Two Face, I mean, even though Harvey's telling her like,
[guido]: Oh, I got you tiar mesiu for for dessert, like he still has kidnapped this woman
[rob]: yes,
[guido]: that he knowses, a lesbian that he got framed for murder. Outed as a lesbian, has
[guido]: kidnapped and brought into this like basement dining room dungeon.
[guido]: So so both Two Face and Harvey are really really the the
[rob]: Yeah,
[guido]: evilest evil that evil can be.
[rob]: Well, and I think that's where the Phantom Story and and the Phantom Musical kind of
[rob]: story has not aged very well. It's very not me too. Because
[rob]: any idea that this that Christina, or whoever our female hero is at the time would fall
[rob]: for this person who ▁ultimately has kidnapped her, her, and his coorcing her. So
[rob]: there's always that little. It's like, Oh, that doesn't really sit super well. So it's
[rob]: great here that they just you know, don't don't don't try to pretend that she's going
[rob]: to fall for him. I mean, she's a lesbian too, but it's just really embracing how much
[rob]: that he's Oh, He's just like this gross kidnapper.
[guido]: Yeah, and she doesn't even you know that Rocka who I love Rua is one of my favorite
[guido]: authors and his work with Michael Lark, is the two of them together Are
[guido]: extraordinary, Lazarus is an amazing amazing title. totally separate from this, but
[guido]: they never have her
[guido]: like Play the game with him, which I feel like
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: is a trope You'd see a
[rob]: totally
[guido]: lot. Is is like her, you know, pretending that she' is going to go along with it like
[guido]: from the beginning she is the kick ass hard edged Renee Motoya, that we know,
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: and she stays consistent through that. And while Batman does ▁ultimately come to be
[guido]: the one to save her, I think it still
[guido]: is fun that she's so
[guido]: unwilling to
[guido]: deal with the awful things that are happening around her and to her,
[rob]: Yeah,
[guido]: so Yeah, it is fun to read. I mean, I love Lark's art. I love Rockus writing, so I
[guido]: read anything,
[rob]: and so much of this too. Playing with that idea of
[rob]: the dual life
[rob]: that we su courses see with Bruce and Batman, and that is talked a lot of explicitly in
[rob]: the else world, but here with Renee living this life of a closeted lesbian, not letting
[rob]: her family know who's very religious and prejudiced and her living this double life.
[rob]: And that's one of the reasons why it seems that Two Face has has outed her because of
[rob]: that that double aspect. So again we kind of get that and it's interesting, Hear that
[rob]: we get it through not through a superhero of secret identity context, but through a
[rob]: different kind of identity.
[guido]: though, I have to say, that's one thing. I was really hoping there would be an
[guido]: explicit connection made about going in and didn't happen, So I don't know.
[guido]: I don't know if Rucka wasn't making that connection or if he chose not to make it
[guido]: explicit, or if there was perhaps any sort of editorial interference, although she
[guido]: does end up kissing her girlfriend in the end, so I doubt that, but yeah, I was
[guido]: hoping that two face would somehow liken his experience
[guido]: of of being, too, and split to the experience of being in the closet, but it doesn't
[guido]: ever happen explicitly, but I definitely
[rob]: No,
[guido]: saw that potential there, too.
[rob]: And and Renee's parents are just so awful.
[rob]: they they? They're not really sure what's worse that their daughter is gay or that your
[rob]: daughter is an accused murderer.
[guido]: Yeah,
[rob]: Yeah,
[guido]: yeah,
[guido]: so do you think that Batman Mask inspired this in any way?
[rob]: I kind of think now that we're talking about it, I. I kind of totally see it having
[rob]: inspired it. In some case it's interesting.
[guido]: I mean. I don't know if it did or just Phantom did right
[rob]: Yes, yeah,
[guido]: like it. It might not be that it was Batman mask. It just might be that
[guido]: again. it might even been Michael Lark. Just in the visuals was thinking about
[guido]: Phantom of the Opera, and thinking about this, who, this person whos kidnapped a
[guido]: woman and is trying to to seduce her.
[rob]: yes, totally I. I. I agree, and I think, because mask is, sometimes, as we were saying,
[rob]: it goes back and forth and really Harvey's not always the most phantom Ek in mask. I
[rob]: could totally just see him taking not not just from masks, but also I, Even in the
[rob]: Batman Eighty Nine movie, there's a beauty in the Beast of Reference, so that that has
[rob]: always been just, I guess so key to these characters.
[guido]: Yeah,
[guido]: so any concluding thoughts with all the story, we've explored
[guido]: the
[rob]: Well,
[guido]: impact of the else world's story.
[guido]: I mean, one
[rob]: I think
[guido]: thing I was thinking about with
[rob]: Yeah,
[guido]: the Els Worldlds
[guido]: was what other Batman villains
[guido]: could be
[guido]: transposed on to a classic film. I think it's a a. A fun thing to think about,
[guido]: because again I think this works really well because it doesn't do a literal,
[guido]: a little, a literal interpretation of Phantom of the Opera, just sort of uses the
[guido]: elements and the characters and then starts to adapt them and bat and villains. I
[guido]: mean, he has such a cody of villains to choose from,
[rob]: totally well, you can even stay in Universal Horror World and put Hush as the Invisible
[rob]: Man,
[rob]: both,
[guido]: But that's just a. That's just an aesthetic thing,
[guido]: Like they look alike. I
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: don't know if there's a personality thing.
[rob]: Well, well, what
[guido]: I, I'll I have an idea.
[rob]: about? Oh? sorry. Yeah, Go ahead.
[guido]: My thinking is
[guido]: horly as The Bride of Frankenstein,
[rob]: Yeah, totally,
[guido]: and I honestly, it's it is mostly visually interesting to me, but obviously, for
[guido]: obvious reasons, with Anantom, the Opera being a universal movie from the twenties, I
[guido]: was thinking I was stuck in universal horror references and thinking well, there are
[guido]: else worlds about Frankenstein and there are else worlds about Dracula. They're also
[guido]: less interesting. You and I both really like the Bride of Frankkenstein, and really
[guido]: like Elsa Lachester, who played the Bride of Frankenstein with such little screen
[guido]: time and so much personality. And so I was thinking well, that's very Harley, Margo,
[guido]: Robbie. Like
[rob]: but also think.
[guido]: this very charismatic Likekooki
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: character who is visually really striking, Um, has elements of like death and
[guido]: ▁zobiism in her
[guido]: appearance, but is also very beautiful and goth.
[rob]: Yes, but if you think of it too like
[rob]: Harley is the Joker's Bride, in a way, and this
[guido]: I know I was trying to separate that, though, for me I don't want to, I don't want to
[guido]: define her in the context of a
[rob]: Sure,
[guido]: man. So, even though the Bride of Frankns doesn't have her own name,
[rob]: yes,
[guido]: so there's
[rob]: yeah,
[guido]: nothing like being defined in the context of a man other than being nameless The
[guido]: Bride of
[guido]: Frankenstein,
[rob]: Mhm. Mhm, what? what about sticking on this universal? What about the penguin and the
[guido]: So's true?
[rob]: The Gilman, the creature from the Black Lagoon
[rob]: Water? And and they both have the more tragic kind of going back to that tragic
[rob]: elements of both of them?
[rob]: Course, the Guilman never speaks. So you know that I can kind of see a little bit there
[guido]: Yeah, potentially.
[guido]: yeah.
[rob]: or the
[guido]: I, I can't remember Creature from the Black Ofgoon story enough to know if if it
[guido]: would work well with good penguin
[guido]: references. That's the other reason I think Harley Bride works is because
[rob]: Mhm.
[guido]: yeah, you have this. She was created
[guido]: by someone else
[rob]: Yes,
[guido]: aspect to story.
[rob]: totally.
[guido]: so
[guido]: yeah,
[rob]: I'm also thinking you know again, on Universal monsters, there iss a little.
[rob]: maybe not the creature but Doctor Frankenstein, and and Roszal Goul. That idea of of
[rob]: continuing life, that like ▁quest, for immortality, or even Dracula and Rosalgul, and
[rob]: that, in that regard even probably better. Yeah.
[guido]: oh, well, that, I mean there are there. are. There are else worlds that Pulla, that
[rob]: okay, yeah, cause yeah,
[guido]: there's one I was just looking at That has Taalally Algul in some weird stuff, so
[guido]: yes, I think we'll revisit that for sure.
[rob]: Mhm,
[guido]: connection.
[guido]: Well, anyth anything else on the impact of Batman Mask in this trip through the multi
[guido]: verse,
[rob]: yeah, Ij. I just think yeah, I. I. I am curious. I know there's lots of other, and I'm
[rob]: sure we'll explore some of them on the podcast Other Batman literary crossovers with
[rob]: Love Craft. I think there is a Jaqueline hidee, which we mentioned as well, so I'm
[rob]: looking forward to seeing more how they're able to put this iconic character into these
[rob]: literary worlds,
[guido]: Yeah, well,
[rob]: and
[rob]: until then we're going to close the book. Speaking of literature, close the book on
[rob]: this bladcast
[guido]: I should have continued interrupting you. I've been Gto.
[rob]: and I've been a Rob. That's a rap. But thank you, dear watchers for listening
[guido]: The reading list is in the show note, so you can follow us on Twitter at your watchs
[rob]: and leave a review wherever you listen to podcast. And if you take a screen shot of
[rob]: that review and send it to us, but'll try to get. We'll get you a sticker from our new
[rob]: art
[rob]: Will be back soon with another trip through the multivererse.
[guido]: in the meantime, in the words of what you keep pondering the possibilities.