[00:00:00] Dan: Hello, and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:12] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Dan Hammond. How are you?

[00:00:17] Dan: I'm very well. Thank you. Actually very doing very well. We, we, uh, you know, we're here in sunny Britain. We it's been raining really for the whole of the summer, but it's been a bit of fear, we've all been damp for about three weeks now, but other than that, you know, other than talking about the weather, we're fine, thank you very much. How are you doing? How's your household?

[00:00:35] Pia: well, we're good because we are, we've got a roaring fire because of course it's winter down here and a little chilly in the valley, but we are hot watching the World Cup and I can't tell you how cool it is that my eight year old son who is besotted with the World Cup is watching females play as his first Major tournament that he's watching, like, how cool is that?

[00:01:02] Pia: It's like one of those moments you think, Oh, we have made some progression. And he, yeah, he doesn't even know that it's a thing. Well, it wasn't a thing. I mean, it's just, it's just is, and that's, it's so cool.

[00:01:13] Dan: It is. It it's really, I know we've bemoaned a lot of things on this, on this show, even about things that aren't going so well, but wow, that has really transformed itself, hasn't it? And it's this slow old, there's some way to go, but people are genuinely. Paying attention and interest. And of course, importantly, it's getting some money now, which is, uh, so it'll just start rolling, but that is wonderful about, um, the, the, the lads seeing his first big tournament

[00:01:40] Pia: is, you see, and, um, yeah, and so he doesn't seem to quite get the subtleties of the offside trap as I tried to explain that little rule to him. But, um, you know, I was just showing my expertise

[00:01:53] Dan: yeah, very good. Very good. Well, it's, it's close to my heart, of course, because my daughter, um, played. Football and qualified as a referee. So as we've talked about a few times, so it's, it's very close to my heart. And I love seeing the women play. And I don't know if anyone's seen this, but, um, the French did a brilliant job of an advert for Les Bleus, um, the French team, and they, they. It's probably a bit of a spoiler, but they, they replaced women's heads with men's heads. So it looked like men's football. It was exciting and brilliant. And then they revealed at the end, this is women's football. So I thought that was super clever to use graphics like that to do it.

[00:02:32] Pia: Really clever. It's only when I watched it the second time around, I realized they did have different legs. There was something in the legs. They weren't as hairy. And then that was the, that was the giveaway.

[00:02:42] Dan: Well, when my daughter played, they all, she started really young and they were all different. All the girls looked different. And then, but by the end, they all had the same legs. They're exactly the same foot footballers legs. Yeah. It was absolutely classic. 

[00:02:56] Pia: So who is our guest today?

[00:02:57] Dan: let's talk about our guest today. Let's, um, let's get stuck in that. So this is Bernadette Welch. She is a, well, to be honest with you, Peter, we she's, she's got so many things that she's done. In public service in, in so many different ways that it's hard to pigeonhole her. Um, but she definitely has some experiences to share, but I love the way that she, she's conscious of what she's done and she's able to share that with the rest of us as sort of interpret what she's done in some way. So, it's a fascinating conversation. Let's go and hear from Bernadette now.

[00:03:30] 

[00:03:30] Pia: And a big welcome to you, Bernadette. Welcome to We're Not Me.

[00:03:37] Bernadette: Thank you very much. It's a absolute delight to be invited to come and speak to you today. 

[00:03:42] Pia: Well, we are delighted too, and I'm even more delighted because you are a fellow Burringbar, neighborhood person. So we are probably only at this point recording at less than a kilometer apart, I think.

[00:03:56] Dan: Yeah, it's, it's been amazing actually how we found this, that, uh, even in our little communities, we find these gems. So, um, well, welcome Bernadette as one of our, one of our gems to the show.

[00:04:07] Bernadette: Thank you. I love being called a gem.

[00:04:09] Pia: the gem, well, enjoy, you are a gem, you're an absolute gem, and, uh, but, but we put all gems into the torture chamber with Dan Hammond for a, for a couple of quick cards, so I'll hand him, hand him, or hand her, hand, hand you over to him.

[00:04:24] Dan: So what are, what are people in Boring Bar call? Are you a bit Boring Barians or is there? 

[00:04:29] Pia: I don't know what we are. 

[00:04:30] Dan: You probably need something. Okay. So I'm selecting a card at random, Bernadette. Um. I felt really valued when... When have you felt really valued, Bernadette?

[00:04:42] Bernadette: I felt really valued the first time my daughter called me and asked me if I could help review a grant proposal that she was doing and give her some advice on how to prepare for this job. I really loved the fact that, um, my daughters see me not just as a mother, but also as a mentor.

[00:05:07] Pia: Yeah, that's, that's amazing. Not quite sure helping with homework quite on my side, quite lives up to that at this moment.

[00:05:15] Dan: it, it, it reminds me of that old joke. Whe when I, when, um, when I was 15, I thought my parents knew nothing. And when I was t by the time I was 20, I was amazed how much they'd learn in five years. It, it's a little bit like that with children, isn't it?

[00:05:28] Bernadette: That's exactly the transition I saw happen with mine. Yeah,

[00:05:32] Dan: That is lovely and wonderful that we look to our children sometimes for that ultimate validation. It's so true, isn't it? They,

[00:05:40] Bernadette: it is. And I find that I learn a lot from my children as well now.

[00:05:45] Pia: Circle of learning. But tell us, tell us a bit about you, Bernadette. So, give us a little bit of an insight into who you are and how you've become who you are.

[00:05:56] Bernadette: Um, I'm retired now, but I had a long career as a public servant, both in Australia and in Fiji. I used to be, uh, married to a military man. So even in years that I wasn't working, I, uh, lived in all different parts of the world. I've had one of these really varied, uh, backgrounds because I spent eight years out of the workforce and, uh, a lot of people get a bit concerned if they have to take time out of the workforce, you know, take maternity leave or whatever. They think that it's going to have a long term impact on their career. And I always say to them, look, I took eight years out and I ended up being a CEO of an organization with 6, 000 staff. So, you know, I think you should take time out when, you feel it's necessary for you, if it's something you want to do for your family or for your well being or for whatever reason.

[00:06:58] Bernadette: So I've had these gaps in my career as well. And I was a senior executive for 11 of those years that I was a public servant and four of those years. I was a chief executive as well. Now I Mainly spend my time diving. I'm a certified rescue diver and I go on a lot of dive expeditions. I do a little bit of consulting work as well.

[00:07:25] Pia: Not while you're diving.

[00:07:29] Bernadette: No.

[00:07:30] Pia: So, um, seawater diving or cave diving?

[00:07:33] Bernadette: I have done the, long tunnel cave, I guess you can call it, at South West Rocks. and I've done some wrecks, but mainly coral reefs.

[00:07:44] Pia: Well, you have my admiration cause I'm, I'm slightly claustrophobic. So I always feel a little bit worried about doing, doing that. So,

[00:07:51] Bernadette: Yeah, diving's a very hard thing for someone with claustrophobia to do.

[00:07:55] Pia: But amazing. And so. you, you've been involved in a number of really complex projects. So to take us into your world 

[00:08:04] Bernadette: Well, I, firstly, I ended up in Fiji because I had decided once my youngest daughter left home that I was going to give away all my possessions and go and move overseas without a plan. And while I was, while I was there, I was contacted by, I was in the US, while I was there I was contacted by an Australian headhunter who was looking to fill the role of the Permanent Secretary for Civil Service in Fiji. And I thought, well, that sounds great. I'll apply for that. And I got it.

[00:08:38] Bernadette: And while I was in that role, I ended up organizing the largest international meeting that Fiji had ever hosted. And then after I had been in that role for a few years, I moved over to be their permanent secretary for health. And while I was in that role, the global COVID pandemic started. So I then found myself responsible for coordinating Fiji's initial COVID response.

[00:09:06] Bernadette: Now the way I initiated that was I reached out to the World Health Organization and we dealt very closely with them. So I, I set up the health building to be able to run the whole National Coordination Project from the top floor of that building. My office was there, my Minister's office was there, and the Prime Minister and Cabinet used to come in to us to get briefed, rather than us having to go to them. And we had a National Coordination Centre where I would go in to be briefed every morning. We had the military there, and the police. I had a doctor running the day to day coordination, and, It was very, very, uh, well structured and it was very collaborative.

[00:10:02] Bernadette: Because when you're operating in a national crisis like that, it's extraordinary how people will drop everything to come together to help. I was really blown away by the level of engagement that I had from everyone from the prime minister down. It was just incredible.

[00:10:19] Pia: I do want to go back to that little comment that you said that you were about to give up all your, all your possessions. And just, just before we go on to that, what, why, why did you want to do that?

[00:10:32] Bernadette: Um, I wanted to live overseas again and I'd been a single mother for a while. I'd had a job that was intense. I was the head of operations for Australia's G20 presidency and I'd been working very long hours for several years. And um, I just wanted to take some time out without the burden of possessions. So I sold my house, but everything else I owned, I gave away. My car, my furniture, everything. And I got on a plane and I ended up in LA of all places. It was an adventure.

[00:11:08] Bernadette: Um, 

[00:11:09] Bernadette: but I was completely unburdened by any, you know, people tried to convince me to keep my house and rent it out. And I said, I don't want the worry, you know? I just want to be free of all of that. Uh, but I only ended up doing that for five months. After five months, I was in Fiji running the civil service. So that just shows how the universe conspires to, you know, place you where you're supposed to be. 

[00:11:33] Dan: And you clearly have an adventurous spirit, Bernadette. So many things you've said already say that. And if we come to your come back to your life in these big offers. You, you know, the, the G 20 job. The Fiji job, they in themselves sound like, putting it nicely, adventurous or at least highly challenging. And, and I'm thinking particularly about the number of stakeholders involved in those roles seems to stand out to me as a huge challenge. Was, is that, is is that right? And, and, and how was that actually managing to sort of sit in the middle of this stakeholder web? 

[00:12:10] Bernadette: it is challenging because, um, everybody wants to speak to the person at the top. So, one of the things that's really important, uh, when coordinating something like this, uh, with the G20, with the COVID response, with the Asian Development Bank annual meeting that I did in Fiji as well, is to make sure that everybody's on the same page and they know absolutely what needs to be delivered.

[00:12:37] Bernadette: Um, once you have that unity of purpose, it's much easier to manage the stakeholder group because you can always bring them back to remind them what you're there for. Because everybody has their own thing that they're concerned about. And as I said, everybody wants to talk to the person at the top.

[00:12:59] Bernadette: And, um, I would make sure that I had official spokes people, who weren't me, who I would send out to speak to the media, to, you know, go on the radio and that kind of thing. And I also made sure that we had a, uh, structured and coordinated process for communication. Because you can get so caught up in stakeholder management that you can't do anything else. And, it is very difficult, especially in an environment like that, in a small country where everybody knows who the permanent secretary is, and everybody wants access to you, to help manage their expectations about what's possible.

[00:13:46] Bernadette: I, I don't have any problem with reminding people of what we're there to achieve and how my time needs to be spent on other aspects other than managing all of the stakeholder expectations. Um, you have to be willing to do that.

[00:14:07] Dan: Can we just sort of, pause on that for a moment? Cuz I'm sure a lot of our listeners are in this situation. In fact, we see them where they're leading teams or organizations and they have their own function, they have their own role, their player coach, and they're embattled really. Their time is sometimes appears not to be their own even. So talk a bit more about it, could you, Bernadette, where did you, how did you actually work on that to create that space for yourself when you had so many calls on your time?

[00:14:37] Bernadette: uh, I made sure that I had a really well structured, uh, system for managing the entire project. Even with something like COVID, where, It was a, an unfolding crisis and we didn't know what we were dealing with, right? I still made sure that at the beginning we took the time to structure our response effectively so that all of the different stakeholders had an opportunity to come together and give feedback and be heard and then go off and do what they needed to do and report back.

[00:15:19] Bernadette: For the G20 we had to be a lot more formal in our structure. I mean, I signed 330 contracts during the G20 and I was coordinating three levels of government. And, the governance committee that we had at the top of that had like 10 departmental secretaries. So I, I had a lot of, you know, stakeholders there, and of course the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's Office.

[00:15:47] Bernadette: I like to make sure at the beginning of one of these projects that I have a very well structured governance framework and coordination and communication framework. It really, really helps. I can't emphasise that enough actually. Um, and it's really important for your own team as well to have, uh, ways of communicating with them regularly and making sure that you're not holding on to information but you're actually pushing it out as quickly as you can. So then people are empowered, they're knowledgeable and they're empowered and they can go and do what they need to do.

[00:16:28] Dan: Did you get pushback on that though? Did you have people saying, actually I don't want that governance framework, I want to speak directly to you. I don't wanna speak to that person or wait for that information.

[00:16:37] Bernadette: Are you a mind reader or something?

[00:16:39] Dan: yes. Woo

[00:16:40] Bernadette: Because, yes, absolutely, absolutely, and in fact with one, I'm not going to mention which one, with one of these big projects I did, I spent a whole year convincing my senior executive staff that they needed to operate within the, um, governance and program management framework that we had set up because then I could be confident in delegating all of my authority. But until I had that visibility over what was happening and I could see that this whole program was being properly coordinated and monitored, then I, I said I won't delegate to you. I will have my eyes on everything myself until you're operating within that framework. And in the end, because they wanted to be empowered, they came along with it.

[00:17:36] Bernadette: And I had, uh, I brought in an external person to review how different parts of the project was going and to give feedback to my boss. And I used to brief her and, and say, these are the questions you should ask, you know? So I used a whole lot of different ways of making sure that people came on board with the, the, the governance and the systems and the frameworks and everything that we had set up.

[00:18:08] Bernadette: With something that, that is that complex, you can't just say, oh, you're an experienced person, go off and do your part, because there are so many interdependencies. And if you're not, uh, monitoring the interdependencies, you'll have someone over here thinking that they can deliver their bit in September, when somebody over in the other direction needs that bit by July, in order for them to do what they need to do, you know?

[00:18:36] Bernadette: And that's, so this is how you manage complexity. And it goes against the grain for a lot of people, because they want to just hit the ground running, and they think that you're holding them up. But in the end, the only way that you're going to deliver best practice and excellence is by having structure if you're looking at, delivering a complex project.

[00:19:00] Bernadette: Now with them, with the COVID response. It wasn't as formalized, but we still had some, we still had some planning and we had an operations center and they were doing a daily report. We were reporting to cabinet and they had a daily meeting of all of the representatives of the different organizations. So we had that first thing in the morning, everyone would report back and then everyone would go off and do what they needed to do. Um, and I had put together a secretaries group. So I met regularly with the departmental secretaries to talk to them about how things were going and what we needed and whether I was having any problems.

[00:19:46] Bernadette: It's, I found it's really important when you've got people who provided you with resources, if you're having any problems, uh, getting what you need out of a particular organization, I have no qualms in picking the phone up and getting it sorted out. If the nation is relying on you to deliver something, you can't pussyfoot around. You can try once if it's, if you're not getting what you need, then you've just got to find ways of, um, going directly to the person that can make things happen.

[00:20:18] Pia: And was there any cultural pushback, particularly in Fiji? Was there a cultural, being an Australian based in Fiji, was there any, any pushback in that respect?

[00:20:27] Bernadette: Uh, yeah, but, I was employed by a government that wanted to do a global search to find the best people for the job. You know, they had decided to spill and advertise all of their permanent secretary roles, and they've brought in an international headhunter to, uh, find people both from Fiji and globally. And when you've got the support of the, the prime minister and the government ministers, then, um, uh, you're more likely to get the support of, your staff and your colleagues as well.

[00:21:02] Bernadette: By the time we had the COVID, challenge, I had been there for four years and I, uh, knew my colleagues very well. I'd been the permanent secretary for civil service, and they stepped up incredibly well. I mean, I was astounded at how giving and open everyone was to basically giving me their best staff and every resource I asked for, they were incredible. Um, you know, it was, it was one, it was one of the greatest privileges of my life to be given that responsibility.

[00:21:37] Dan: in setting up these governance structures, on the other hand, on the other side, how did you balance that with sort of autonomy and the ability to, for people to think for themselves, go out and do their jobs, you know, without sort of rattling everything up the chain? How, how did you strike that balance?

[00:21:58] Bernadette: I think it's really important that people understand what their authority is and where decisions are made. That needs to be laid out very early in the piece so that people can get on with their job. And, while it's really important to have planning and monitoring, It's also really important to empower people to get the job done.

[00:22:27] Bernadette: And one of the things that I've found really helps in these situations is ensuring that you have done everything you possibly can to give people all of the tools that they need to get their job done. I've seen, uh, situations where people are expected. to do the work based on their knowledge, you know, incredibly smart people and heroic effort where there's, there isn't value put on the other things that people need.

[00:23:01] Bernadette: And that goes to, systems as well as, um, equipment and assets and budget and human resources and all of that kind of thing, and technical capability, etc. I mean, you need to understand right at the start what your, ability to access resources is. And based on the resources that you can get, that will determine what's possible for you to deliver.

[00:23:34] Bernadette: Uh, and you know, I've found on a number of occasions, I've walked into jobs where senior people have been used to coming in and making a call and saying I want this done and I want it immediately. And I walked into once an organization where everyone was just running around responding to demands of senior people. And so I, um, I put together a consultative group from across the department. I asked these senior people to nominate their representatives. And I said, we are going to determine what the priorities are for this organization. It was corporate services in a big government department. And, um, after those priorities were agreed by the executive board, whenever we got one of those calls, I would say, which one of these priorities that you've all agreed on would you like me to move in order for me to do this very important thing you've asked me to do immediately?

[00:24:34] Bernadette: You've, you've got to find strategies to help you to help your people to get the job done. And one of the strategies that I had to develop was how to sort of push the noise away from them and. Help them to do their job while I sort of stood up to all of this, all of these demands that were coming in and gave pushback in a gentle kind of way, you know?

[00:24:59] Bernadette: I got feedback that she's so professional I really like the way corporate services is being run now, but you know, that was because I was managing them.

[00:25:10] Bernadette: And I think if you're in a leadership role, it's incredibly important to make sure that your team isn't feeling the heat that's coming down at you. As, as much as possible. You've got to absorb, you have to be resilient and you have to absorb that heat as much as you can. And you've got to be really strategic, you know, respectful, but very professional in the way you deal with it. Nine times out of 10, you can turn what was a problem into an opportunity. 

[00:25:45] Bernadette: The way you deal with these situations, you can find ways to impress people with your professionalism and your structured way of doing things and your consultation and your stakeholder management, and you can end up fixing the situation for everybody. 

[00:26:04] Bernadette: Every situation is different, but there's a way of dealing with, I've had to deal with these things with, you know, senior ministers and, uh, and others as well and there are ways that you can give people what they want by convincing them that there's a better way of going about this.

[00:26:22] Pia: and then the cream on top is that it's their idea.

[00:26:24] Bernadette: Oh yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's 

[00:26:28] Pia: and that they've, they've been very clever coming up with a great idea. Um, what did you find your most challenging moment, Bernadette, you know, across these complex, complex, what, what did you find was sometimes the, the, the biggest barrier?

[00:26:45] Bernadette: For me, I've found the biggest barrier has been, um, people. Sometimes it's people that work for me. Um, this was a point that I wanted to make as well. Sometimes you'll have, uh, a member of your team who's just either a square peg in a round hole or worse, uh, is not treating everyone with respect and is really, um, impacting the wellbeing of the team. And it's really important that you find a square hole for your square peg or whatever, you move them on. Because it can be incredibly destructive to allow someone to remain in a team where they're really damaging team well being, you know, for whatever reason, and that this is another, um, job of the leader. You have to deal with these things.

[00:27:43] Bernadette: You can't, I see so many situations where people avoid having to deal with this, but all they're doing is. by not dealing with it themselves, they're making their team deal with it. And that's unfair. You're, you know, if you're the leader, you have to deal with it.

[00:27:59] Bernadette: Uh, and also, uh, having, working for people who are problematic. My attitude is that if the person I'm working for is not giving me what I need in order for me to be able to do my job effectively, I will tell them. And I've never had a situation where they haven't appreciated being told.

[00:28:22] Bernadette: You know, taking on some of these roles means taking a risk. These roles that I've had have all been very high risk. I love that. And if you want to succeed and you want to grow, then stretch yourself and take on higher and higher risk roles. Um, but part of that risk taking is also being willing to engage in difficult conversations at all levels of an organization when you need to.

[00:28:50] Pia: and I think some, I think it's such a good point because I think people sometimes shy away from that. So they sometimes expect those conversations to be had by others and not to take that, that accountability themselves.

[00:29:04] Pia: So, so we would have lots of people who are. Leading teams, leading organizations, leading businesses. What would be a takeout then from your experiences that you'd be passing on?

[00:29:16] Bernadette: Well, my first and most important take out is to make sure that you have that unity of purpose. That everybody understands why you're there and you've got buy in to that because it's very easy for things to go off the rails if you don't have a unity of purpose. And you really need to have, clarity. And as a leader, I think you should always be as authentic as you possibly can. Be open and honest with people and authentic. Because people appreciate that. And it really helps create a respectful and open culture.

[00:30:02] Bernadette: Because you want people to be honest with you. You want people to tell you if there's a problem. This is another thing with bringing teams together to deliver on the difficult stuff. If they don't feel safe to be able to tell you that something's going wrong, then you'll find out when it's too late. Uh, so if you are open with people, and you invite them to be open with you, you invite them to give you feedback and have the hard conversations with you, then they will do the same thing when they're having an issue, even if it's their fault, you know. They need to understand that, uh, Everybody makes mistakes. That's how we learn, right? How do we learn to walk? We fall over, and we get back up, and then we fall over again.

[00:30:53] Dan: Everything we've heard today from you, you really take responsibility for your role. You protect your people. You're out there building these governance systems, making sure things work in a certain way. There's a lot on your shoulders in that role. And when you, when you do all those things, how do you maintain your energy? 

[00:31:11] Bernadette: I really thrive in those situations. but also I have always been very good at building a community. I've worked in all different locations, in different agencies, in different countries. And, um, I make sure that early on I find my people. this isn't just in the local community, but also in the workplace. And I try and do things for people just because, especially at work, I find that's really important.

[00:31:48] Bernadette: If you do things for people because you see somebody needs something done and you know that you can help them, then you find that that comes back. I don't do it so it comes back, but it comes back. It comes back with your friends. The support that I had with COVID. I had people dropping off homemade meals to me and that kind of thing because they knew how hard I was working. And, and that really helps to feed the soul, you know, when you've got that level of support. 

[00:32:19] Pia: And I've got one final question. What next? You said you like taking more and more risks. So, so are the bags packed, which, which, you know, which city are you going to now? What, what's next on the,

[00:32:30] Bernadette: Going to Galapagos uh, in October, November, I'll be away for four weeks diving, uh, and I'm going to the Ecuadorian Amazon. So. there's that. But also I'm starting to look at sitting on boards. I, I feel like I have a lot to offer.

[00:32:50] Bernadette: I was on Australian Seabird and Turtle Rescue for a while, and I was on the Commonwealth Association of Public Administration board, and I'm thinking that, uh, I've, I've done 250 dives in the last three years, so now I probably want to put some time back to giving back to organisations. So I think that that's probably, uh, something that will be next for me on the cards as well.

[00:33:14] Pia: Great. It may be Commonwealth Games, if it moves out of Melbourne to the Gold Coast. Heh. Oh, she's got her head in her hands. 

[00:33:22] Dan: She has, yes. Podcast couldn't quite transmit that body language there.

[00:33:29] Bernadette: Actually, there was, there were 30, there was about 30 seconds when I saw the head of the Commonwealth Games, uh, not the head of the Commonwealth Games. It was the, I think it was the one that's happening on the Gold Coast in Brisbane. And I thought, oh, I could apply for that. And then I thought, no, what are you thinking? What are you thinking?

[00:33:46] Pia: three years. Three years to get that up and running. You never know, someone may come knocking on your door. She lives in Buringbah

[00:33:55] Bernadette: no comment. No, look, I used to work in climate change and I'm really interested in working in something to do with climate action. I have, um, been approached to give a bit of advice on Australia's COP Presidency, and that really interests me. I think it's a really important issue. And that's the sort of thing that I think that my skill is best suited to.

[00:34:20] Pia: Brilliant. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you, Bernadette. And what an incredible, just such a, a wealth of experience that you've just articulated actually quite simply. So I really feel that our listeners will be able to pick some, pick some gems out of this and really apply it. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your stories on We're Not Me with us.

[00:34:48] Bernadette: Well, thank you for having me. It was my pleasure. 

[00:34:50] Dan: Well, as I was listening to, uh, to Bernadette, my, the, my three C's dashboard was flashing away because I mean, she is a full three C's leader and definitely a focus on clarity, you know, that unity of purpose and spend a lot of time in climate as well, and I love the way that she talks about the governance processes of communication, but also the resources. Just, yeah, just a really, a holistic view of her responsibility as a leader.

[00:35:22] Pia: She's put herself into high risk, complex situations and thought about almost like the cascading governance required to deliver. So I think she's, you know, I thought it was great how she talked about, you can give people tasks, but they will go off in different directions. So it's, it's seeing that as quite a systemic view of how you harness the power of a collective, but you have to set that up. And so. There are ways to do things and there are expectations of blah, blah. And when, and when that is well understood, you know, the, the, the capacity to be able to work within that system, which, you know, when you're dealing with hundreds of people, I mean, I think she talked about, you know, she was delivering 330 million worth of projects when she was head of operations. It's complex. So she's created that system. And when people are in, in that position where they've understood it and can deliver against it, then they're

[00:36:29] Pia: empowered. 

[00:36:30] Dan: They can, work. Yeah, exactly. Within those boundaries. And I think this, this is interesting because it sort of touches on some things we talked about with Tom around self management.

[00:36:38] Dan: But, you know, when you've got an organization, a large structure and loads of stakeholders in particular, but in any organization, even in our organization, we have a, you know, we have an overarching roadmap, we have ways of working with teams, but how would they interrelate. We sort of, there is a role for the leader to actually create that framework, those guardrails to say, this is how we're working together.

[00:37:02] Dan: And I remember ages ago, we met, uh, that spot of Spotify coach in New York, and he talked about those sort of tribes and the way that they, the way, the way they did have those structures and those guardrails just light enough, but within that structure, then there's loads of autonomy,

[00:37:20] Pia: the discipline of the process creates freedom of choice. It's actually a military perspective, which is quite interesting. Another big sort of

[00:37:29] Dan: And she'd been married to a soldier. So maybe this is.

[00:37:32] Pia: Yeah, yeah,

[00:37:33] Pia: before giving it all away and getting on a flight to LA, um, you know, which I thought was, was, was wonderful.

[00:37:39] Pia: Um, I really like to focus on psych safety and she talked about, you know, if people don't feel safe to tell you it's, it's going to be too late before you find out. So it's in your best interests and it's in everyone else's best interest to have that, that climate. And, um. Yeah, I think I might've mentioned that before there is a stat somewhere around how most generals are shot in the back. So it's, um, it's important, it's important to be able to create that, create that climate that people feel that they are able to express concern and, and maybe even challenge something that you're doing.

[00:38:16] Dan: ideally. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. The bit that I really wanted to explore with you, Pia, was that idea of, she said she'd protect her team from all the sort of the stuff coming down on them from outside. And, um, I certainly did that in one of my roles, a couple of my roles. And, um, I think I'm in two minds about that, to be honest is how, you know, people who sometimes, unflatteringly call that being the shit umbrella, not being a shit umbrella, being umbrella for it to, but maybe we call it a or a, you know, no, not being a rubbish umbrella, but actually protecting people, um, from the things that are raining down on them from global or regional, wherever it comes from.

[00:38:59] Dan: My reflection having done that was I realized that there's a dark side to that as well, which is that sometimes, one thing is your team then doesn't really understand the full context and they're seeing everything translated through you. And that's not that great. But also it's sort of didn't, I realize I wasn't preparing people for that next role. If someone's going to step up or into that, then they didn't really know what they're stepping into. So I think, I feel there might be some sort of balance. I don't know what your thoughts are on that. I think that just to say, Bernadette takes her, took her responsibility very seriously, and I think that she put a lot into that, but I just had that question mark, having, having, having done, done that myself, whether that's something that needs to be held in balance.

[00:39:43] Pia: I think sometimes organizations kind of encourage us to do that. That again, it's a slight test of rank status and hierarchy. You know, what, what. Can you hold now to be fair, and we're working with a number of organizations where decisions have been made and they can't be communicated. So you just can't, you just can't because that's the nature of the way that that that's happening.

[00:40:09] Pia: It's a good question to ask yourself. What are you actually trying to achieve by doing that? And if that is because the very nature of the information is not going to help them, not going to help the people that you lead and maybe a huge distraction. You know, I'm, I was working with a leader, I was talking to them last week, and a whole pile of things happened and they didn't communicate it to their team. And they said the reason they didn't do it was because they didn't understand. Thank you. You know, I wasn't entirely sure that that would have been useful. And in actual fact, all of the decisions changed. So it would have been an almighty distraction to communicate different directions, whereas in actual fact, they were waiting to let's curate, curate, get to the, get to the right outcome. Now that's communicated.

[00:40:59] Pia: So I think, I think that depends. And I think the final litmus check check is, am I doing this? to fulfill my own needs in some way? Is there, is there an ego element to this? And I think that's a, you know, it's just, it's a possible

[00:41:17] Dan: It's possible. It's possible. I would say also, it certainly didn't feed my ego. It was the most miserable part. That was the job I did was just protected people from ridiculous requests from regional office, you know? So, um, but yeah, I think you're right. You, it can be a sort of, that's a danger. I'll, I'll deal with the, I'll deal with the big, big boys and girls in global or whatever whereas and that would be a that would definitely be a sort of warning sign wouldn't it? It's an interesting one? I'd be um, I think it's just food for thought as with so many of these things, something just to be conscious of and hold, hold in balance. Definitely not. And um and Bernadette, wow, she took her responsibility seriously.

[00:41:56] Dan: And I'll talk about her energy how she maintained her energy because that bombardment can be quite Quite draining, but she had a lovely answer to that, which she actually thrived on it and she sees herself in the, in the community. She, she, she really enjoyed the sort of the energy that she gained from being part of that, um, part of the organization, part of the community, which is just, I think that's just so show someone who's a natural leader because she's being nourished by it. Absolutely. Um, it's inspiring, actually.

[00:42:27] Dan: But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net, Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. And if you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Stedman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:42:51] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.