WEBVTT 00:00:02.909 --> 00:00:06.190 Matt Abrahams: Communication is operationalized leadership. 00:00:06.590 --> 00:00:09.970 The best leaders communicate clearly and consistently. 00:00:10.699 --> 00:00:13.859 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:13.859 --> 00:00:15.880 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:16.220 --> 00:00:21.000 Welcome to this special episode of Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast, 00:00:21.750 --> 00:00:26.619 recorded live as part of Me2We, which is an on-campus component of Stanford 00:00:26.619 --> 00:00:30.089 GSB's Executive Education LEAD program. 00:00:30.730 --> 00:00:34.939 In front of over 500 people, I had the honor and privilege to host 4 of our 00:00:34.939 --> 00:00:39.590 most popular guests in a thoughtful discussion of practical ideas and 00:00:39.590 --> 00:00:44.399 tools we can all use to become better leaders and communicators. 00:00:45.610 --> 00:00:51.320 It is now my distinct pleasure to host for you a live version 00:00:51.390 --> 00:00:53.349 of Think Fast Talk Smart. 00:00:53.739 --> 00:00:57.540 By way of quick introduction, we have Celine Teoh, Huggy Rao, 00:00:57.629 --> 00:00:59.609 Tara VanDerveer, and Dave Dodson. 00:01:00.099 --> 00:01:01.090 Thank you all for being here. 00:01:01.450 --> 00:01:03.619 I'm excited to have our conversation. 00:01:04.110 --> 00:01:05.059 We'll start with Celine. 00:01:05.459 --> 00:01:09.809 Celine is a facilitator for the GSB's very famous class, Interpersonal 00:01:09.809 --> 00:01:11.989 Dynamics, better known as Touchy Feely. 00:01:12.529 --> 00:01:18.470 She is a coach and a lecturer in effective team leadership and a GSB graduate. 00:01:18.510 --> 00:01:21.029 So Celine, it's really nice to see you again. 00:01:21.029 --> 00:01:23.720 Celine and I will sometimes go for the walks in the foothills. 00:01:23.940 --> 00:01:25.960 It's a little different in this format here. 00:01:26.229 --> 00:01:29.750 As everyone here well knows, our world has become a bit more 00:01:29.750 --> 00:01:35.159 divisive, and conversations can tend to be a little more conflictual. 00:01:35.589 --> 00:01:39.820 What advice do you have for leaders to encourage differences of opinions 00:01:39.820 --> 00:01:43.430 while trying to minimize the angst and conflict that can result? 00:01:43.849 --> 00:01:47.460 Celine Teoh: I'm going to approach it from an interpersonal dynamics point of view. 00:01:47.909 --> 00:01:52.599 And as a leader, if you want to encourage dissent, one of the first 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:54.390 things you have to do is ask for it. 00:01:54.769 --> 00:01:55.860 I'm going to give you a framework. 00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:57.150 It's the five A's. 00:01:57.559 --> 00:01:58.479 You have to ask for it. 00:01:58.900 --> 00:02:02.049 "Hey, what does everybody think? Does anybody have a different point of 00:02:02.049 --> 00:02:04.540 view?" You have to acknowledge it. 00:02:04.870 --> 00:02:09.589 "Oh, thank you for telling me that you think that this initiative might actually 00:02:09.589 --> 00:02:14.299 reduce our budget and make us unable to meet our other goals." Appreciate it, 00:02:14.659 --> 00:02:16.760 "I really enjoy that you told me this. 00:02:17.019 --> 00:02:20.349 Thank you so much." Fourth is act on it. 00:02:20.549 --> 00:02:22.540 As much as possible, act on it, right? 00:02:22.540 --> 00:02:23.980 Put your money where your mouth is. 00:02:24.310 --> 00:02:27.739 "Let's actually do an analysis to find out if there is enough money to hit 00:02:27.769 --> 00:02:30.590 these goals." And then amplify it. 00:02:30.829 --> 00:02:35.099 "Oh, Matt told me this thing. I really appreciate that he told me this thing 00:02:35.099 --> 00:02:38.670 that I might initially have disagreed with." Because when you do something 00:02:38.670 --> 00:02:43.170 like that, you actually create safety for people to dissent with you. 00:02:43.650 --> 00:02:46.989 And then you asked a question around how do you minimize conflict when the 00:02:46.989 --> 00:02:50.650 dissent does happen, and I would say, don't focus on the conflict itself. 00:02:50.650 --> 00:02:53.900 Actually build the human relationship before that. 00:02:54.299 --> 00:03:00.014 So ask for it, acknowledge it, appreciate, act on it, as much 00:03:00.014 --> 00:03:02.355 as you can, and then amplify it 00:03:02.904 --> 00:03:03.384 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:03:03.444 --> 00:03:06.535 What I notice is agree was not mandated to agree. 00:03:06.835 --> 00:03:09.474 There isn't a sixth A. It's just to acknowledge and understand. 00:03:09.745 --> 00:03:10.474 Thank you very much. 00:03:10.474 --> 00:03:11.184 I appreciate that. 00:03:11.755 --> 00:03:13.425 Sitting next to Celine is Huggy Rao. 00:03:13.814 --> 00:03:17.355 Huggy is a professor in organizational behavior, and he teaches a lot of 00:03:17.355 --> 00:03:21.204 popular classes, including People Operations From Startup to Scaleup. 00:03:21.574 --> 00:03:25.755 And Huggy has written several books, but his most recent with Bob Sutton, who 00:03:25.755 --> 00:03:30.224 also teaches at Stanford, is The Friction Project: How Smart Leaders Make the Right 00:03:30.265 --> 00:03:32.254 Things Easier and the Wrong Things Harder. 00:03:32.654 --> 00:03:35.215 So Huggy, when we last spoke, your book had just come out. 00:03:35.215 --> 00:03:36.704 The Friction Project had just come out. 00:03:37.064 --> 00:03:37.745 It's been a while now. 00:03:38.044 --> 00:03:41.055 Can you share with all of us some things you learned when you were 00:03:41.055 --> 00:03:44.325 bringing that book to the world, and what was most well-received? 00:03:44.325 --> 00:03:47.184 Is there something that really helped people that you could share 00:03:47.184 --> 00:03:48.395 with us that could help all of us? 00:03:49.305 --> 00:03:54.294 Huggy Rao: I would say, uh, the idea or principle that had, uh, maximum 00:03:54.294 --> 00:04:00.184 impact was what Bob and I refer to as the addition bias, the relentless 00:04:00.184 --> 00:04:05.194 tendency of leaders, managers, and executives to constantly add. 00:04:05.855 --> 00:04:08.075 Let me narrate a simple experiment. 00:04:08.495 --> 00:04:11.134 So this was actually a series of 20 experiments. 00:04:11.694 --> 00:04:14.795 So in the first experiment, they ask people, "Hey, you've got to 00:04:14.795 --> 00:04:19.425 build a spaceship with Lego building blocks. Do you want 5 of them 00:04:19.425 --> 00:04:22.954 or do you want 15 of them?" What do you think most people choose? 00:04:23.175 --> 00:04:27.725 15. Arguably, it's way more complex to build a spaceship 00:04:27.725 --> 00:04:29.394 with 15 blocks as opposed to 5. 00:04:30.334 --> 00:04:34.795 In the second experimental task, they ask people, "Please plan a 00:04:34.795 --> 00:04:39.475 vacation." And predictably, they add more cities to the vacation. 00:04:40.194 --> 00:04:44.605 And the consequence is they feel they need to have a vacation from a vacation. 00:04:45.194 --> 00:04:49.865 And we're sitting in a university, and that was the last of the 20 experiments. 00:04:50.245 --> 00:04:55.645 "Please help us reform a university." 89% of the suggestions 00:04:55.905 --> 00:04:57.405 had to do with addition. 00:04:57.965 --> 00:05:00.204 What's the consequence of addition? 00:05:00.414 --> 00:05:04.314 I could go on about how it destroys willpower and so forth. 00:05:04.725 --> 00:05:08.125 Let me give you two quotes that have always stood with me. 00:05:08.595 --> 00:05:12.304 One young woman with a tear in her eye told me, "I just 00:05:12.304 --> 00:05:14.155 feel I can never be enough." 00:05:14.455 --> 00:05:15.745 And that is tragic. 00:05:16.245 --> 00:05:21.595 And American organizations psychologize this and say, "Oh my God, they have a 00:05:21.595 --> 00:05:27.254 work-life balance issue. Let's give them a meditation app." The real problem is 00:05:27.254 --> 00:05:30.134 the lousy way in which work is designed. 00:05:30.485 --> 00:05:35.774 So the big takeaway from all of that is the implication for all of you as 00:05:35.774 --> 00:05:39.004 leaders is to be editors in chief. 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:42.329 What does the editor-in-chief of a movie or a newspaper do? 00:05:42.760 --> 00:05:46.710 They take out things that bore, bewilder, distract, and exhaust people. 00:05:47.419 --> 00:05:52.610 And a good place to start is start with a campaign to get rid of stupid shit. 00:05:53.150 --> 00:05:54.900 That's like a simple place to start. 00:05:55.289 --> 00:05:56.469 Matt Abrahams: Thank you, Huggy, very much. 00:05:56.920 --> 00:05:58.910 Sitting next to Huggy is Tara VanDerveer. 00:05:58.949 --> 00:06:01.430 I am thrilled and honored that you decided to join us today. 00:06:01.459 --> 00:06:02.010 Thank you. 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:06.869 Tara served as Stanford's head women's basketball coach for 38 years. 00:06:07.180 --> 00:06:10.199 Tara led Stanford to 3 national championships. 00:06:10.529 --> 00:06:15.150 She also coached the US national team to Olympic gold in 1996. 00:06:16.069 --> 00:06:19.850 I've had the good fortune to get to know Tara over the last year or so. 00:06:19.900 --> 00:06:22.969 Tara's very interested in learning and bringing learning to the 00:06:22.969 --> 00:06:25.469 student athletes here on campus, and to the coaches as well. 00:06:25.960 --> 00:06:27.800 You've been super busy since you retired. 00:06:27.909 --> 00:06:29.870 I think maybe more busy than when you coached. 00:06:30.179 --> 00:06:34.999 And Tara not only helps coach coaches, but she coaches leaders as well. 00:06:35.280 --> 00:06:38.100 What do you find is one thing that you think is most helpful? 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:41.710 Tara VanDerveer: You know, the one thing I guess I want to communicate with the 00:06:42.069 --> 00:06:46.530 young people I work with, whether it's the players or the coaches that I work 00:06:46.530 --> 00:06:50.350 with, or now it's the other coaches of other teams, is just whenever I went to 00:06:50.350 --> 00:06:52.640 the gym, I never felt like it was a job. 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:54.079 I loved going to the gym. 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:56.290 I loved being around the players that I worked with. 00:06:56.589 --> 00:06:59.049 And I always wanted to help them be better. 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:03.049 And one of the things I did as an adult, does anyone play the piano here? 00:07:03.570 --> 00:07:06.530 It is so hard, but I wanted to learn as an adult. 00:07:06.930 --> 00:07:10.920 And I tried to teach myself for 2 weeks, and it was, like, hopeless. 00:07:11.390 --> 00:07:14.100 And so I went out and I got the best piano teacher. 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:15.540 I mean, she's just phenomenal. 00:07:15.579 --> 00:07:19.129 And within the first year I was making CDs and then another CDs. 00:07:19.129 --> 00:07:22.060 And people said to me, "Wow, Tara, you're really good." I said, "No, I have 00:07:22.060 --> 00:07:26.530 a great teacher." And what I took from that, and I hope to use with my coaching, 00:07:26.860 --> 00:07:30.670 is I always want to help people get to somewhere they can't get by themselves. 00:07:30.890 --> 00:07:35.430 So it's lifting them up and being positive and being encouraging and 00:07:35.430 --> 00:07:37.079 helping them be the best they can be. 00:07:37.430 --> 00:07:41.369 That's the thing I try to encourage, whether it's the players or coaches or 00:07:41.369 --> 00:07:45.460 people that I have a chance to meet, is be someone that makes it better. 00:07:45.629 --> 00:07:47.099 Be someone that makes a difference. 00:07:47.390 --> 00:07:48.429 Matt Abrahams: Thank you very much. 00:07:48.810 --> 00:07:50.330 David, this is David Dodson. 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:51.949 Dave is a lecturer in management. 00:07:52.009 --> 00:07:53.069 He's also an alum. 00:07:53.449 --> 00:07:57.380 He teaches Managing Growing Enterprises among his many other classes, and 00:07:57.380 --> 00:08:01.500 his latest book is The Manager's Handbook: 5 Simple Steps to Build 00:08:01.500 --> 00:08:05.709 a Team, Stay Focused, Make Better Decisions, and Crush Your Competition. 00:08:06.170 --> 00:08:09.860 Dave, when you were on the podcast before, it was a master class in how to lead 00:08:09.860 --> 00:08:11.649 and how to really be a better manager. 00:08:12.069 --> 00:08:15.770 Since we last met, it feels like so much has changed in the world. 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:18.839 We met before the AI revolution and other things. 00:08:19.140 --> 00:08:22.690 If you were to update your manager's handbook today based on the 00:08:22.690 --> 00:08:26.229 challenges leaders are facing, what one bit of advice would you add? 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:27.910 David Dodson: I've thought about that a lot. 00:08:28.339 --> 00:08:33.979 I don't see how two things can coexist right now, which is that AI has all 00:08:33.979 --> 00:08:38.639 of the description and promise, and there won't be a lot of job disruption. 00:08:39.149 --> 00:08:41.819 I know some people say that's not the case, but I don't believe that. 00:08:41.819 --> 00:08:45.780 And the reason I don't believe that is because AI is by definition doing 00:08:45.780 --> 00:08:48.160 things that people did or people do now. 00:08:48.370 --> 00:08:49.570 That's gonna lead to disruption. 00:08:49.850 --> 00:08:51.759 I didn't necessarily say it's gonna be bad. 00:08:51.789 --> 00:08:53.620 I have no idea how it's gonna turn out. 00:08:53.659 --> 00:08:57.149 Anyone who says they know are fooling themselves, but I do 00:08:57.149 --> 00:08:58.249 know there's gonna be disruption. 00:08:58.540 --> 00:09:02.850 And Warren Buffett has that great expression, I assume he coined it, "When 00:09:02.850 --> 00:09:06.339 the tide comes down, you see the rocks." I think that's what's gonna happen, 00:09:06.450 --> 00:09:11.530 is I think the tide is gonna come down because the whole idea or the whole 00:09:11.530 --> 00:09:15.340 sweepstakes of who's a winner and who's a loser is gonna be turned on its head. 00:09:15.690 --> 00:09:19.320 And you're not going to win because you have better technology. 00:09:19.870 --> 00:09:23.410 45 years ago I was programming in Fortran, and I could figure 00:09:23.410 --> 00:09:26.230 out how to draw a Christmas tree in a dot matrix printer, right? 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:28.009 And then I haven't programmed since then. 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:29.309 Everyone here can program now. 00:09:29.340 --> 00:09:30.430 We're all programmers now. 00:09:30.500 --> 00:09:35.340 So technology is becoming less and less important, and what's ending up happening 00:09:35.340 --> 00:09:39.320 is running things well is going to become more and more important because 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:42.330 you can't cover it up with the things that you used to be able to cover up. 00:09:42.659 --> 00:09:47.860 So I don't think there's ever gonna be a more important time than to go back to the 00:09:47.860 --> 00:09:49.869 fundamentals of how do you build a team? 00:09:49.869 --> 00:09:51.409 What are the sub-skills of building a team? 00:09:51.820 --> 00:09:53.089 How do you go get advice? 00:09:53.409 --> 00:09:55.010 How do you measure quality? 00:09:55.220 --> 00:09:58.650 And so all those fundamentals I think are going to rise because the technology 00:09:58.650 --> 00:10:01.540 advantage is gonna come down, and there's going to be a lot of disruption. 00:10:02.129 --> 00:10:02.900 Matt Abrahams: Thank you to all of you. 00:10:02.900 --> 00:10:04.799 It was nice to hear your voices and your input. 00:10:05.010 --> 00:10:08.949 The theme of this year's Me2We is leadership, and I'd like to ask each 00:10:08.949 --> 00:10:12.850 of you to share one of the best bits of leadership advice you've learned or 00:10:12.850 --> 00:10:17.070 experienced in your careers that you think would benefit those folks in the room. 00:10:17.470 --> 00:10:19.659 Dave, since we just heard from you, let's have you start again. 00:10:19.659 --> 00:10:21.489 What's one of the best bits of advice? 00:10:22.150 --> 00:10:25.019 David Dodson: So my career after I got out of business school was I worked 00:10:25.019 --> 00:10:27.570 here at the business school, and then I went out and bought a small company. 00:10:27.919 --> 00:10:31.979 And that small company, the largest investor was TA Associates, 00:10:31.979 --> 00:10:33.269 which was very small at the time. 00:10:33.269 --> 00:10:34.239 Now they're huge. 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:38.250 So I got access to the guy who was running the whole place, Kevin Landry. 00:10:38.250 --> 00:10:39.229 He's since passed away. 00:10:39.449 --> 00:10:40.150 And he told me this. 00:10:40.150 --> 00:10:44.659 He said, "The hardest step that you make is not becoming a manager because 00:10:44.659 --> 00:10:47.620 once you become a manager and you've got three or four people reporting to you, 00:10:47.980 --> 00:10:50.859 you can do their work on the weekends, you can cover up for them or whatever. 00:10:51.189 --> 00:10:54.120 The hard thing is when you become a manager of managers because then 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:57.719 you can't cheat basically the system anymore." And he said, "That's what we're 00:10:57.719 --> 00:11:01.840 gonna see whether you can do or not." And so as a result of that, I've over 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:06.309 time evolved to the comparison between being a leader and being a teacher. 00:11:06.599 --> 00:11:08.480 And it's not because I teach at the business school. 00:11:08.620 --> 00:11:12.279 I'm, it's in a different context, is that the best leaders are the 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:16.469 ones that are focused on teaching and developing talent and not doing. 00:11:16.900 --> 00:11:19.519 So that would be the single nugget that I wanted to share. 00:11:20.049 --> 00:11:20.719 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for that. 00:11:20.810 --> 00:11:24.189 And one of the hardest lessons I ever had to learn when I was an operator was 00:11:24.189 --> 00:11:27.829 exactly that 'cause I wanted everybody to like me, so I did all the work 00:11:27.870 --> 00:11:30.120 myself, and I didn't take that step back. 00:11:30.859 --> 00:11:31.840 So Tara, let's move to you. 00:11:31.840 --> 00:11:34.680 What's some advice that you would share here about good 00:11:34.680 --> 00:11:35.959 leadership that you've learned? 00:11:36.700 --> 00:11:40.870 Tara VanDerveer: I was a, a head coach before I was at Stanford, and I was in 00:11:40.870 --> 00:11:45.740 a situation where, you know, we had a championship team, we had great recruits, 00:11:45.740 --> 00:11:51.389 we had, I had a great staff, but I didn't feel appreciated from maybe the 00:11:51.389 --> 00:11:53.520 leadership of the athletic department. 00:11:53.549 --> 00:11:58.049 And so I started looking around, and then I got recruited by Stanford. 00:11:58.229 --> 00:12:01.879 So I took the job at Stanford, and then we've had great success at Stanford. 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:04.530 And Stanford at the time was not a very good program. 00:12:04.530 --> 00:12:09.559 But I think more than anything, I learned that as a leader, as the head coach, you 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:12.730 know, whether it's I wanted to be a great teacher, but I wanted to make sure that 00:12:12.730 --> 00:12:14.640 the people I worked with felt appreciated. 00:12:15.069 --> 00:12:19.309 And a, a lot of people, I think, change their jobs, not because they don't like 00:12:19.309 --> 00:12:23.539 the job, but because they don't like who they're working for, and they don't feel 00:12:23.539 --> 00:12:27.819 the respect or they don't feel the part of the, the process that they want to feel. 00:12:27.819 --> 00:12:31.089 And I felt it, and so I want to make sure that the people that I 00:12:31.089 --> 00:12:34.209 work with, my assistant coaches, my staff, feel appreciated. 00:12:34.859 --> 00:12:35.270 Matt Abrahams: Thank you. 00:12:35.609 --> 00:12:36.830 Take the time to appreciate. 00:12:36.830 --> 00:12:37.319 Very good. 00:12:37.779 --> 00:12:40.980 Huggy, how about some leadership advice you've experienced 00:12:40.980 --> 00:12:42.359 or you'd like to pass on? 00:12:42.929 --> 00:12:43.779 Huggy Rao: I love history. 00:12:44.230 --> 00:12:49.499 And for me, the advice, I guess, that had the most impact on me, that in part 00:12:49.499 --> 00:12:55.260 informed our Friction Project book, was the advice, uh, Augustus Caesar, the great 00:12:55.260 --> 00:12:58.289 Roman emperor, would give to his generals. 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:02.800 He would always tell them, "Make haste slowly." And that's 00:13:02.800 --> 00:13:04.160 been worked and reworked. 00:13:04.700 --> 00:13:09.429 I think the great danger with speed is good people can do very 00:13:09.429 --> 00:13:13.130 bad things very quickly, and that's the problem with speed. 00:13:13.499 --> 00:13:19.840 One quick study, I asked my PhD student, "Here's a bunch of Bay Area startups. Use 00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:24.679 a large language model to comb through all their strategy documents. Tell me 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:29.130 how much do they linguistically emphasize speed?" She came up with a number. 00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:33.900 I said, "Tell me what's the relationship between this linguistic emphasis on speed 00:13:34.219 --> 00:13:38.310 and the time taken to become a unicorn?" And she was excited, and she said, 00:13:38.310 --> 00:13:42.480 "Oh my God, the more they talked about speed, the faster they became a unicorn." 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:47.090 I said, "Wait a minute." I said, "Conditional on the first stage, do 00:13:47.090 --> 00:13:52.140 a second stage analysis and tell me the relationship between the time 00:13:52.170 --> 00:13:56.280 taken to become a unicorn and the probability of lawsuits two years 00:13:56.280 --> 00:13:58.519 down the line." What did she find? 00:13:59.029 --> 00:14:02.169 Faster you became a unicorn, you got barraged with lawsuit. 00:14:02.650 --> 00:14:07.519 So to me, the most important thing I think is to create, for all of 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:12.939 you as leaders, cognitive speed bumps to slow your people down. 00:14:13.359 --> 00:14:18.220 Because if you don't do that, they're going to, of course, rush in and make 00:14:18.220 --> 00:14:21.380 mistakes and also do many bad things. 00:14:21.710 --> 00:14:25.990 So a simple technique is to always say, "What would we do if we had 00:14:26.189 --> 00:14:30.359 half the resources we have? What would we do if we have quarter the 00:14:30.359 --> 00:14:35.289 resources we have?" And just the thought experiment slows you down. 00:14:36.039 --> 00:14:36.460 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:14:36.570 --> 00:14:37.279 Thank you very much. 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:40.009 Slow things down and build in some friction. 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:41.039 Celine, how about you? 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:43.259 What's some leadership advice you have for folks? 00:14:43.640 --> 00:14:47.469 Celine Teoh: So I actually went out and asked my coachees this. 00:14:47.550 --> 00:14:53.379 So I'm going to pass on to you wisdom from all of these leaders of fairly 00:14:53.379 --> 00:14:55.759 large and successful organizations. 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:01.860 And every single one of them had the same advice, which was listen more. 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:05.499 And that's because, as you all know, everybody in here is a leader. 00:15:05.980 --> 00:15:10.679 The more senior you get, the taller, funnier, better looking you become. 00:15:11.030 --> 00:15:12.800 Nobody wants to say no to you. 00:15:12.800 --> 00:15:15.359 Nobody wants to tell you bad news. 00:15:15.389 --> 00:15:19.969 You stop hearing the stuff you need to hear in order to make good decisions. 00:15:20.319 --> 00:15:24.829 And so answer to the first question, ask, and then do what one of 00:15:24.829 --> 00:15:26.399 these leaders is actually doing. 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:31.850 He's having the situation where he's retiring, and he's grooming the successor, 00:15:31.850 --> 00:15:37.579 and the successor he noticed, like, jumps in and states her opinion right away 00:15:37.579 --> 00:15:39.179 the instant she gets into the meeting. 00:15:39.410 --> 00:15:42.380 And what that does is that narrows the conversation. 00:15:42.380 --> 00:15:45.920 Suddenly everybody's just supporting her perspective. 00:15:46.480 --> 00:15:50.109 And so the advice that he gave her was, "Be the last one to speak. 00:15:50.719 --> 00:15:54.109 Let the junior people speak first, and then don't shoot them down. 00:15:54.550 --> 00:15:56.700 But let them all speak first, and then you'll suddenly 00:15:56.870 --> 00:15:58.420 hear a diversity of opinions. 00:15:58.749 --> 00:16:05.280 And then when they speak, listen very hard." Because when they say, "Celine, 00:16:05.780 --> 00:16:11.539 perhaps that might not possibly be the best idea on the table," what they really 00:16:11.539 --> 00:16:15.409 mean is, "Celine, that idea sucks." So you have to listen, You have to kind 00:16:15.409 --> 00:16:17.080 of like amp up what they're saying. 00:16:17.209 --> 00:16:18.390 So listen hard. 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:20.030 Matt Abrahams: Thank you all for that. 00:16:20.420 --> 00:16:22.849 And I'd love just very quickly to hear from some of you before 00:16:22.849 --> 00:16:23.950 I get to our final question. 00:16:23.950 --> 00:16:27.049 If you have thoughts on what helps improve communication. 00:16:27.049 --> 00:16:29.259 And Huggy, I'm gonna pick on you because you said something, I 00:16:29.259 --> 00:16:32.950 don't know that it's yours, but you talked about jargon monoxide. 00:16:33.259 --> 00:16:36.110 Can you talk about how that suffocates communication? 00:16:36.629 --> 00:16:38.739 Huggy Rao: I think it kills communication. 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:44.060 We have a chapter in our book about jargon monoxide, and that's using 00:16:44.450 --> 00:16:50.069 hugely complicated words and language that frankly alienates people. 00:16:50.549 --> 00:16:55.580 In fact, the more abstractions you invoke, the more confused you leave people. 00:16:55.880 --> 00:16:59.690 Look at all the companies, they say integrity is a value. 00:17:00.259 --> 00:17:01.480 I get confused by that. 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:02.410 What does that mean? 00:17:02.810 --> 00:17:06.899 Does it mean I tell you the truth even before you ask me or do I tell 00:17:06.899 --> 00:17:08.470 you the truth only when you ask me? 00:17:08.890 --> 00:17:12.559 And there's actually a very interesting study that shows the 00:17:12.630 --> 00:17:18.059 more abstract and jargon-laden the language we use, people actually 00:17:18.059 --> 00:17:20.280 associate those words with the mouth. 00:17:20.540 --> 00:17:24.030 And when you use concrete words and language, people 00:17:24.030 --> 00:17:25.890 associate that with the hand. 00:17:26.320 --> 00:17:31.259 And so every time you're talking to somebody, ask yourself what's 00:17:31.289 --> 00:17:33.530 the ratio of hand to mouth word? 00:17:33.910 --> 00:17:38.100 And once you do that, you quickly realize, I've got to purge a lot of these 00:17:38.469 --> 00:17:45.039 mouth words, abstractions that simply signal you have mastered presumably 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:48.039 something, but leave everybody mystified. 00:17:48.570 --> 00:17:50.230 And you don't have agreement then. 00:17:50.719 --> 00:17:54.960 You actually have people sleepwalking to conclusions of 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:56.570 which they're completely unaware of. 00:17:57.260 --> 00:18:00.439 Matt Abrahams: I need to get my foot out of my mouth most of the time, so maybe 00:18:00.439 --> 00:18:01.799 that leads me into more of my hands. 00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:02.180 Thank you. 00:18:02.530 --> 00:18:07.119 Tara, when you and I spoke, I was really fascinated by how you think about giving 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:09.220 constructive feedback to your players. 00:18:09.629 --> 00:18:12.680 If you think about it, a coach's job is to coach and to give that feedback. 00:18:12.989 --> 00:18:15.330 In terms of your communication when you're in a moment of giving 00:18:15.330 --> 00:18:17.780 feedback, can you share a little bit about how you approach that? 00:18:17.780 --> 00:18:20.269 Tara VanDerveer: Well, I think feedback is coaching. 00:18:20.729 --> 00:18:24.489 Sometimes it's hard for people to hear feedback. 00:18:24.970 --> 00:18:28.949 The very first person I coached was my sister Marie, who never practiced. 00:18:28.949 --> 00:18:33.479 My dad made me coach her team, and Marie never practiced, but I always knew that I 00:18:33.479 --> 00:18:35.260 had a great relationship with my sister. 00:18:35.260 --> 00:18:39.290 So the first thing I would start with when I'm coaching someone is the 00:18:39.290 --> 00:18:40.530 relationship that I have with them. 00:18:40.530 --> 00:18:44.350 So maybe a senior on the team who I know and know really well, I 00:18:44.350 --> 00:18:47.559 might be able to communicate in a different way than a freshman. 00:18:47.850 --> 00:18:51.290 So it's first the communication is based on the relationship that 00:18:51.290 --> 00:18:55.199 you have with the person you're talking with or giving feedback. 00:18:55.540 --> 00:19:00.049 And then no matter what, I would sandwich the communication with positive. 00:19:00.049 --> 00:19:03.620 If someone, you know, is not getting back on defense, I said, "Wow, you're 00:19:03.620 --> 00:19:06.840 doing a, a great job on the offensive boards, but you're not sprinting back 00:19:06.840 --> 00:19:11.980 on defense, and we need you out there." So it would be positive of, you know, 00:19:11.980 --> 00:19:15.450 you're doing a great job, let's do this better, and then another great job. 00:19:15.450 --> 00:19:18.529 So I call it, you know, the sandwich approach to coaching. 00:19:18.790 --> 00:19:22.790 And after every game, we would give our team very specific written 00:19:22.790 --> 00:19:27.499 feedback of things you are doing well and then a thing you can do better. 00:19:27.850 --> 00:19:30.950 And just maybe some of it is not what you're saying, but 00:19:30.950 --> 00:19:32.070 how you're saying it to them. 00:19:32.469 --> 00:19:37.040 I think of coaching, and leading is, I think, is really similar in that 00:19:37.439 --> 00:19:39.799 how would you like to be coached? 00:19:39.909 --> 00:19:44.250 And I talk to our assistant coaches of being the coach that you want to play for. 00:19:44.709 --> 00:19:50.120 So be the boss, be the leader that you would like to learn from or work for. 00:19:50.419 --> 00:19:54.060 And a lot of that is not always what you say, but how you say it. 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:56.320 And who wants to be screamed at? 00:19:56.589 --> 00:19:59.229 You know, I mean, really, who wants to be screamed at and yelled at and, 00:19:59.540 --> 00:20:01.380 and in some ways being broken down? 00:20:01.380 --> 00:20:03.610 And so I, I would never use that way of coaching. 00:20:04.130 --> 00:20:06.999 Matt Abrahams: So it's really taking the time to think about what's relevant 00:20:06.999 --> 00:20:10.130 and important for the person you're talking to, and to remind them that 00:20:10.130 --> 00:20:11.610 you're here to also encourage them. 00:20:12.030 --> 00:20:15.820 Celine, I know that when you and I have talked, that you believe that 00:20:15.820 --> 00:20:19.550 it's important to prepare when you have significant high-stakes communication. 00:20:19.550 --> 00:20:23.359 Do you have some suggestions about how people can best prepare? 00:20:23.980 --> 00:20:28.050 Celine Teoh: A lot of the advice around communication that I consume 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:30.949 revolves around the form of it. 00:20:31.329 --> 00:20:34.899 But I think what's important to prepare is just knowing your audience. 00:20:35.340 --> 00:20:40.660 Sit there and actually get into their shoes, get into their personalities, 00:20:40.660 --> 00:20:44.759 get into their personas, and really understand what is it they care about. 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:47.269 What message will resonate with them? 00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:52.059 I think real empathy for your audience is where I would start. 00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:55.110 Matt Abrahams: So as you prepare, it's not about getting the message out, it's 00:20:55.110 --> 00:20:56.769 about making sure the message lands. 00:20:56.860 --> 00:20:57.239 Thank you. 00:20:58.110 --> 00:21:01.229 So Dave, in your book, it's full of good communication advice. 00:21:01.229 --> 00:21:04.409 Is there one thing that stands out to you that you would share that really 00:21:04.409 --> 00:21:06.220 helps with successful communication? 00:21:06.750 --> 00:21:10.129 David Dodson: Here would be the advice that is actually through a lot of the 00:21:10.129 --> 00:21:14.280 communication aspects of the book, which is that you start with having a framework. 00:21:14.699 --> 00:21:18.549 Tara was talking about giving feedback, and how we teach feedback 00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:20.930 is that it's, there's 6 parts. 00:21:20.979 --> 00:21:22.150 I'm not going to go through the 6 parts. 00:21:22.150 --> 00:21:22.720 It's in the book. 00:21:22.780 --> 00:21:27.369 But that you learn these 6 parts because you have to ask them for, for example, 00:21:27.369 --> 00:21:28.799 if they're facing any obstacles. 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:30.540 You have to be clear how you're measuring them. 00:21:30.540 --> 00:21:32.360 You have to be clear that you're giving them support. 00:21:32.809 --> 00:21:37.269 And if you learn those basics, those 6 steps, and it's all conversational in 00:21:37.269 --> 00:21:39.350 the end, then you give great feedback. 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:41.900 Another framework we have is when you're giving bad news. 00:21:42.360 --> 00:21:45.309 A lot of people give bad news and they ramble on and go back and 00:21:45.309 --> 00:21:47.510 forth and nobody really knows what's happening and they're apologizing. 00:21:47.769 --> 00:21:48.619 Just do it like this. 00:21:48.699 --> 00:21:49.159 Just say this. 00:21:49.589 --> 00:21:50.460 "This is what happened. 00:21:50.840 --> 00:21:51.930 This is the implication. 00:21:52.299 --> 00:21:53.420 This is what I learned from it. 00:21:53.749 --> 00:21:56.279 This is what I'm doing differently going forward." Structure 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:57.389 your communication like that. 00:21:57.480 --> 00:21:59.629 It'll be conversational, but have structure around 00:21:59.629 --> 00:22:00.600 it so that you cover that. 00:22:01.040 --> 00:22:03.560 So that's really done more for me than anything in terms of being 00:22:03.560 --> 00:22:04.859 able to communicate effectively. 00:22:05.239 --> 00:22:07.260 Matt Abrahams: Structure is so critical to effect it. 00:22:07.260 --> 00:22:08.829 It helps you and it helps your audience. 00:22:08.829 --> 00:22:09.239 Thank you. 00:22:09.650 --> 00:22:11.730 So I'm going to ask one final question of each panelist. 00:22:11.879 --> 00:22:16.629 What is one skill or tool you would suggest our leaders consider, develop, or 00:22:16.629 --> 00:22:19.870 hone as they walk into 2026 and beyond? 00:22:20.210 --> 00:22:20.999 What's one skill? 00:22:21.090 --> 00:22:22.784 Tara, do you mind sharing one first? 00:22:23.314 --> 00:22:27.274 Tara VanDerveer: Again, this might sound a little odd, but I think you want to start 00:22:27.274 --> 00:22:28.995 with yourself and take care of yourself. 00:22:29.234 --> 00:22:32.274 You want to make sure that you're getting the sleep that you need, that 00:22:32.274 --> 00:22:36.345 you're getting your exercise and doing things that are making you healthy. 00:22:36.345 --> 00:22:40.264 And then I think you're going to be a much better leader for people that 00:22:40.264 --> 00:22:42.014 you feel really good about yourself. 00:22:42.375 --> 00:22:46.354 And you can have a great job, and you can work really hard, but you still have time 00:22:46.354 --> 00:22:49.864 for your friends and your family and your children and taking care of yourself. 00:22:49.864 --> 00:22:53.684 So I think it really, it starts with you and being able to look in the 00:22:53.684 --> 00:22:56.235 mirror every day when most of you brush your teeth every day, I think. 00:22:56.525 --> 00:23:00.634 And it starts with how you approach it, your attitude, and 00:23:01.164 --> 00:23:02.494 how you put yourself together. 00:23:02.535 --> 00:23:06.165 And I work with so many people and a lot of young people 00:23:06.165 --> 00:23:07.674 that they're so distracted. 00:23:07.674 --> 00:23:09.575 They're on their phones for hours and hours. 00:23:10.084 --> 00:23:12.665 And that's, I would also say that is get off your phones 00:23:12.665 --> 00:23:13.615 and take time for yourself. 00:23:14.194 --> 00:23:15.764 Matt Abrahams: Okay, so it starts with you first. 00:23:16.075 --> 00:23:17.625 Dave, how about something you would suggest? 00:23:18.235 --> 00:23:22.395 David Dodson: It might be a little less obvious, but it really builds on 00:23:22.395 --> 00:23:25.724 something, Tara, you were just saying, which is make sure you have time to think. 00:23:26.165 --> 00:23:28.234 And I was thinking about, especially when you talk about being on the 00:23:28.234 --> 00:23:31.344 phones and so forth, I mean, we're just bombarded with stimulus. 00:23:31.715 --> 00:23:35.535 And so my leadership advice would be being able to do deep work and being able 00:23:35.535 --> 00:23:38.494 to think creatively and then creating an environment where the people that 00:23:38.494 --> 00:23:42.685 work for you also have that instead of everybody just pounding through emails 00:23:42.755 --> 00:23:47.975 all day long and trying to multitask on Zoom and every, just take time to think. 00:23:48.325 --> 00:23:51.545 That's where the big lightning flashes of brilliance come from. 00:23:51.965 --> 00:23:54.424 Matt Abrahams: So give yourself the time to think and set up that environment. 00:23:54.854 --> 00:23:55.695 Celine, how about you? 00:23:55.725 --> 00:23:58.465 What's one skill or idea you'd like folks to hone? 00:23:58.780 --> 00:24:00.799 Celine Teoh: I'm actually thinking about something you said, Huggy, 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.610 which was the mouth and the hands. 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:07.289 I think we should think about the skill of bringing your 00:24:07.289 --> 00:24:09.890 head and your heart into work. 00:24:10.289 --> 00:24:14.319 Because in a realm of AI nowadays, what Dave was talking about, what is 00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:19.059 left to us when the AI is smarter, more logical, knows more than we 00:24:19.059 --> 00:24:21.840 do, if not our magnificent humanity? 00:24:22.389 --> 00:24:26.860 And that is our ability to feel, our team's ability to feel. 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:32.610 And so I would say learn to name your feelings, right? 00:24:32.840 --> 00:24:35.909 When you're, as Tara recommends, brushing your teeth in front of the 00:24:35.909 --> 00:24:40.479 mirror or washing your hands and ask yourself, "What am I feeling right now? 00:24:41.110 --> 00:24:44.290 What's one sentence as to why?" And then do that with your team. 00:24:44.509 --> 00:24:47.720 Ask your team, you know, a quick check-in at the beginning of the meeting. 00:24:47.900 --> 00:24:52.290 David Bradford actually recommended this as the highest ROI move he can think of. 00:24:52.750 --> 00:24:53.650 How are you feeling right now? 00:24:53.650 --> 00:24:54.720 What's one feeling word? 00:24:54.860 --> 00:24:56.290 What's one sentence as to why? 00:24:56.549 --> 00:24:59.200 And then go around the table, takes 5 minutes, and then suddenly 00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:02.940 you realize, oh, there's a lot of heavy stuff happening over here. 00:25:03.349 --> 00:25:05.309 There's a lot of light stuff happening over there. 00:25:05.379 --> 00:25:08.819 It's all in the room with you, so head and heart. 00:25:09.589 --> 00:25:10.230 Matt Abrahams: Huggy, how about you? 00:25:10.230 --> 00:25:12.599 What's one thing you would recommend that people consider? 00:25:12.819 --> 00:25:15.099 Huggy Rao: Yeah, um, I'd be glad to do that, Matt. 00:25:15.129 --> 00:25:19.970 But before I do that, I really want to double-click on what Tara and 00:25:19.970 --> 00:25:24.769 David just mentioned, and that is time poverty always leads to thought poverty. 00:25:25.209 --> 00:25:29.209 You don't have time, you're not going to have great thoughts, period, you know? 00:25:29.819 --> 00:25:31.250 So here's a story. 00:25:31.250 --> 00:25:34.419 I'm gonna take you back to the Greece of Homer. 00:25:34.650 --> 00:25:38.389 Many of you may recall Ulysses, who of course was described 00:25:38.389 --> 00:25:39.870 by Homer in his books. 00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:45.250 This story is about Ulysses, and Ulysses has fought all of these battles, and 00:25:45.580 --> 00:25:49.959 he's tired, and he's trying to return home to meet his wife, Penelope. 00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:55.250 And as the ship is sailing, there's actually a huge temptation close, 00:25:55.730 --> 00:26:00.940 and that's the island of the Siren, mythical demigods, if you 00:26:00.940 --> 00:26:04.180 will, who sing haunting songs. 00:26:04.540 --> 00:26:06.850 And if you went to the island, you could get trapped. 00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:09.330 And Ulysses had a problem. 00:26:09.930 --> 00:26:14.089 He wanted to listen to the music but not get trapped because otherwise 00:26:14.089 --> 00:26:16.069 he wouldn't be able to see Penelope. 00:26:16.210 --> 00:26:21.329 And the tactic that Ulysses, or tool that Ulysses relies on is he tells 00:26:21.329 --> 00:26:27.660 his sailors, "Please tie me to a mast and stuff my mouth with cotton because 00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:32.250 I cannot give you instructions to stop and stay here in this island. 00:26:32.730 --> 00:26:38.480 But leave my ears open so I can listen to the music." And then he tells the sailors, 00:26:38.570 --> 00:26:43.779 "You need to stuff your ears with wax because you can't listen to the music lest 00:26:44.149 --> 00:26:46.950 you actually get trapped in that island." 00:26:47.320 --> 00:26:51.220 And this is actually a simple story but for me a very 00:26:51.220 --> 00:26:53.660 powerful one about weak will. 00:26:54.110 --> 00:26:58.590 I wish I was a resolute chooser, but I know I have weak will. 00:26:58.930 --> 00:27:04.520 And so the tool for all of you is to ask yourselves what's your mast? 00:27:04.910 --> 00:27:08.529 For me, my mast is I'm a morning person. 00:27:09.070 --> 00:27:11.169 I get up at 4:30 or whatever it is. 00:27:11.540 --> 00:27:17.199 4:30 until 12:00 I'm supremely data oriented, very rational. 00:27:17.470 --> 00:27:22.159 After 12:00 I make fast decisions, most of which are wrong. 00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:27.409 And so my mast is I never make an important decision after 00:27:27.409 --> 00:27:28.860 12 o'clock in the afternoon. 00:27:29.280 --> 00:27:30.300 So that's my mast. 00:27:30.550 --> 00:27:32.199 So think about what's your mast. 00:27:32.959 --> 00:27:33.430 Matt Abrahams: Thank you. 00:27:33.879 --> 00:27:37.470 My one bit of advice, celebrate the failures. 00:27:37.970 --> 00:27:41.979 Understanding the failures can really teach a lot as well 00:27:41.979 --> 00:27:43.489 as, as celebrating the wins. 00:27:43.959 --> 00:27:45.659 I think that's a great way for us to wrap up. 00:27:46.010 --> 00:27:48.870 Thank you so much for being here. 00:27:48.940 --> 00:27:50.300 I want to thank the panel. 00:27:50.540 --> 00:27:54.750 Can you please join me in giving a big round of applause for our panelists today? 00:27:58.709 --> 00:28:01.039 Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think 00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:03.110 Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:09.920 To hear the 2025 version of our live Me2We event, please listen to episode 194. 00:28:10.369 --> 00:28:15.209 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:19.790 Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:28:20.350 --> 00:28:23.610 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:28:23.889 --> 00:28:25.959 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:29.219 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:28:29.670 --> 00:28:33.740 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:28:33.740 --> 00:28:36.000 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:28:36.509 --> 00:28:39.630 Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community 00:28:39.630 --> 00:28:42.319 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:28:42.659 --> 00:28:45.959 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI 00:28:45.959 --> 00:28:48.479 coach, and book club opportunities. 00:28:48.779 --> 00:28:53.680 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast 00:28:53.889 --> 00:28:55.729 Talk Smart Learning Community.