The questions we wrestle with as Christians about who God is, how do
we live out our faith, what is the Bible, what is the truth of the
Bible, what are we supposed to believe? How are we supposed to live? There
are really big, deep questions that we ask each
other, that we ask God, that we wrestle with ourselves.
And that's why the Cultivate podcast exists, to help us go deeper in
our understanding of who God is, his word, and the way that
he's called us to live.
Hey, everyone. Thanks for joining us. Cultivate podcast. I'm Charlie
Lofton, lead pastor at the Grove Church. So glad that you are listening
and we have with us the staff member that Charlie loves.
Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Have you tried that on
anybody else yet? Not yet. Not yet. Okay. But it'll be coming. Battle testing. Yeah.
Okay. It's perfect. It's perfect. I got Abigail.
Yes. Our awesome producer, expert question
asker, and podcast host. Thanks so much Of course. Being with
us. And we are been going through some various,
academic bible kind of topics, theology topics. We
did a class called SummerSlam. SummerSlam.
It has to be said like that. SummerSlam. Yes. Yeah.
Kinda like a car commercial used car. I got that. I got that.
Sunday. Sunday. Sunday. Sunday. That's tractor pull. Yeah.
Demolition derby. Yes. We're
kinda doing some various theological topics. And I've been interviewing
the teachers that were doing those, but I taught a couple of them. And during
those, you've been interviewing me, and we've been talking. We
started last episode talking about book of Revelation. Sure. And
the big picture question was, why should we study it?
And I feel like like we did something different than what I was able to
do with Mark in our last series. Did the answer. We answered that question
first. Yes. Here is why we should answer it. And I feel like if
you didn't listen to that, you should go back and listen. I think it was
you know, helps us understand, like, kinda why it's there, kinda what its
purpose is, why maybe we've kinda misunderstood it, and
really why and how we should study it. And there
is a way. We didn't mention this last time. There's a way for people to
send more questions if they're interested. Yeah. Remind us of
that email because I don't remember it. Info, infothegrowthchurch.org.
There you go. If you have if you feel like you didn't answer the question.
Or you have a different question, a different topic that we should be covering. Yeah.
I would love I would love to hear that. Over there. I would love to
hear that. Yes. I could just give them your email since
you are the producer. Yes. Just direct it to
me, and then I'll I'll I'll see if it's added out.
Into your web browser, and you'll come up. And something will be there. Yeah.
But here's the thing that I knew. I mean, honestly, I mean, I made a
joke about it when I was at summer seminar. I was like, why should
we study this? Like, well, because it's it's in the Bible. Five second answer.
Mhmm. Then I gave a 2 minute answer to that question, which was, you know,
it's meant to keep us from getting deceived by someone who
claims to be Jesus and to give us hope in a chaotic
world. Mhmm. And so that's a simple
answer, but I assumed that
that there was more behind the question. Right.
Not just why should we study it, but while you're here, Charlie
Mhmm. Could you also Right. Could you
also tell us a little bit more kind of about it?
So Mhmm. I spent some time doing that, and you were there. Yes. What did
you think? My mouth continually kept dropping
wider and wider Yeah. As you're explaining more and more of
it. I didn't grow up knowing a ton about Revelation. Okay. And so the
more You went to one of the more gentler denominational churches growing up. Yes.
And so the more and more you said, I think I sat there
sitting next to 2 of my friends and I kept turning around and be like,
is that really in the Bible? And they're just like, yeah. Yeah. He's not making
up stuff up there. I was like, what? I needed
confirmation that Charlie wasn't making this up. Yeah. It's a crazy
book. I am somewhat creative, but I'm not creative
enough to come up with the content of the book of Revelation. That's
fair. And so, like, that's when people say is, like, that like, John just made
that up, but I'm like, bro. Wild imagination. That is
a very vivid imagination. Right. One of my favorite theories, we
haven't really gotten in where this is getting into the weeds. We haven't even talked
about the the forest yet,
is that some of the things that he's describing, like multi headed
monsters and these kinds of things, is that he had
a vision of, like, the actual future
and saw what a modern war would look like
Oh, okay. And did not have the words to describe a
helicopter. Woah. See the
right. And there's a jaw drop. No other I have no idea if that's
true, but then it's just like, I don't know. It's kinda like this giant
flying bird with a lot of heads and multiple tails and made
a screeching loud noise. Yeah. Just Yeah. That
that some of that could be, like, a moment. I think Right. Maybe. Right. So
we spent some time, and I'll just kinda start here. Kinda start with the
general overview of what we'll just call the 3
major Right. Theories of revelation. Do you know well, go
ahead. I don't know all of them, but you did just kind of mention I
grew up in a denomination that was a little bit softer on it. So there
are Shittler is what I said. But there are
a multitude of, throughout
history, interpretations of what this is. Yeah. It's not just a
straightforward, this is exactly what it means. So we're gonna kinda dig into that a
little bit. And I grew up in a I grew up not only the denomination,
but also at a period of time where there was a lot of Right. Yeah.
Obsession is too strong a word, but we'll just use it because it's there.
Like, a a real a real intense focus Right. On this issue. So let me
see if I can get them. Post tribulation,
pre tribulation, and amillenialism? What? That
is three words that we will discuss. Dang it. No. No. No. But it's like
it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. So the core word
that all three of these viewpoints have is the word millennial.
Okay. Okay. Which means what? I don't
remember how much, but it's a time period. 1000 years. 1000 years. Okay.
1000 years. And so the where you you you were
really, really close. K. Premillennial,
postmillennial, and then all millennial. Okay. So all three
of those, the key the keywords there are millennial. Millennial means a
1000 years, and then pre, post, and ah are
prefixes that we know what they mean. Pre means Before. Post.
After. Ah. During. Nope. Nope. Like, ah,
theist. Does not exist? Yeah. I did yeah. Just
just a not. Okay. Not. Okay. I'm not a theist. I'm a not
theist. I'm not a millennialist. I'm a not millennialist.
Okay. Okay. So what does that mean then? So millennial
refers to the idea that Jesus
is going to reign as a king for a
1000 years. Okay. And that 1000 years may be literal, it may be not
literal, or maybe super literal depending on where you are, but just
think about that there is a description in the
in Revelation that Jesus is going to reign
for a 1000 years on the Earth. And is this the bulk of what
Revelation is talking about this millennia? No. It actually I would
say the bulk of Revelation is talking about what it happens in the years
leading up to that. Okay. Okay. A time called the tribulation.
Okay. It's a very vivid description of 7 really, really
hard years that are gonna happen on the Earth. And so these different points of
views are discussing when that will happen. Right. And then there's those 3
points of views that we've got this we've got this idea. Jesus is gonna reign
on the earth for a 1000 years, and that may or may not be
literal. So when does Jesus come back? Does
he come back before this reign,
after this reign, or does this reign not even
exist? Okay. So a premillennialist, Jesus
is coming back before Okay. The 1000 years. A postmillennialist,
Jesus is coming back after the 1000 years. Mhmm. And an
amillennialist says, you guys are taking all of that way too
literally. There is no such thing as a millennial kingdom. Okay.
So it's not necessarily the book of Revelation is not
true. They just don't they think it's not a literal
interpretation. Right. Yeah. So no one is I I wanna say this.
This is really important. This is really important. The use of the
word literal. I interpret the Bible literally.
Now there is that is that
is an overused word. It is a misunderstood word. And when
people say now when I read Revelation, I take it literally.
You don't take it literally because you don't think that the
antichrist is literally going to be a beast.
Sure. Do you think it is going to be a person, and he's described as
a beast metaphorically? Right. So there are the and and the book of
Revelation is full of metaphors. And so in the strictest
sense, no one is taking the book of Revelation
literally. But on a relative
scale of how the events that are
described metaphorically, how literally do I believe that all
of those events are going to be true is on a scale. Mhmm.
And so there are some that are certainly more literal than
others, but I would not describe any of them as, quote,
literal. To the textbook literal. Because, again, it's a person, not
a beast Right. Even though he's described as the beast. Mhmm.
And so they believe that what is described
as, the millennial
kingdom is just the description of the age of the church.
Okay. Where Jesus, the holy spirit is on the earth.
He's reigning. He is reigning as king in your heart.
He is reigning as king in the church. And you you mean big city
church? Right. But he's not reigning as king as king
of the earth. Right. That isn't going to happen. Mhmm. And so it is
meant to be more he is the king. He is the
king on the earth even if he is not literally king on the
earth. Okay. Like, he is king. He died and rose
again. And according to Philippians, you know, he was given the name that is higher
than every name. He's he is reigning as king right now
Mhmm. In some senses of the word reigning as king.
Okay. And so there's not going to be some point in which
he is more literally reigning as king on the earth Right. Than
what he is right now. Okay. It's just he is the king whether or
not we see him or whether or not a significant portion of the population
acknowledges that or not is irrelevant. Right? Is it he is the
king. So I just wanna make sure I'm crystal clear on this.
So the book of Revelation is describing
letter to the churches, all that, and then describing the end of the
world or how this is gonna happen. And so there's 3
describing something that appears to be a kingdom, a a a
kingdom of Jesus reigning. How
literally do I take that? Is that one of the
biggest questions? Okay. Because how literally we
take that reign is gonna put you more
towards one of these three categories. K.
So the amillennialist is the easiest to
explain k. Because it is so just imagine a
timeline in your brain. We got everything that happens in the Bible. Jesus
dies on the cross. The Holy Spirit comes. Jesus goes back up to
heaven. I guess he goes back up to heaven, then the Holy Spirit comes. Right?
The church is on the Earth, and
then something is going to happen, and then
Jesus is going to come back. And when you say church, do you mean just
Anytime I say church, I always mean capital c church in this context. And you
mean just like any Christian on The the the the
The population totality of Christians in the world Okay. Is the
capital c church Mhmm. In my shorthand Okay. In this discussion.
And so the church is here, has the Great Commission,
varying degrees of success in doing what God has called us to
do, and then Jesus is going to come back
and set the world right. The world will come to an
end, and then believers will leave live with
Jesus in heaven, and people who didn't
follow Jesus will be separated from God forever. And
so what happens between this period in which the church has been
given the Great Commission and the very end is kind of the answer to
what Revelation is describing. And typically, an amillenius will
be like this is all very metaphorical,
and is really just describing that it is going to be a very
turbulent world. Mhmm. It's gonna be very broken. A lot of
bad things are going to happen. There are going to be people who are claiming
to be Christ. There's there's gonna be there's gonna be
chaos and wars and all of these different things. The world is
gonna get progressively worse and worse. Jesus is gonna come
back. Armageddon, which is kind of this battle that
happens at the end of time will happen. Jesus will win. The earth
will cease to exist. We'll go to heaven or hell depending,
and there is no real point
in time where Jesus is reigning on the earth. Okay. And this is
allmillennial. Right.
Postmillennial is also fairly easy to describe.
It says, you know, the the the the
bad stuff that is described is kind of the the tribulation. That is kind of
the the period that we're going through right now. Mhmm.
There's just bad stuff happening. People claiming to be
Jesus, natural disasters, punishment, smiting, all of these
bad things are happening everywhere, but God has given us the
great commission, and slowly but surely, we are going to
Christianize the world. K. The world has become a better place
morally. It's gonna be become prog more and more people are going to
become Christians. It is gonna get to a point to where the
world could be described as
a good place, and a
Christian, a Christian world and a good, a morally good world.
Mhmm. And so we will be bringing about, we will create
the kingdom. Heaven on earth. We will create the millennial kingdom.
Okay. So Jesus will reign on the Earth
because we made it happen through our efforts to
make the world progressively better and progressively more Christian.
Right. So then once we have done that
for a 1000 years, then Jesus comes back and
is like, good job, guys. You
know, some version of Armageddon happens. The last vest
that, you know, the last bits of evil in the world, Satan and
his demons will be destroyed, put down, the world will end,
be separated into heaven and hell, and that that's
how the story ends. So the the kingdom does exist. It's
something that we bring about, And once we have brought it
about, Jesus comes and reigns. Mhmm.
Right? Premillennialist
is is the one that probably most people are familiar with. Okay.
This is the one if people are really into and the word is
eschatology, the study of the end times. People are really
into it. They're almost always going to be premillennialists, and
they're just debating kind of nuances of it. And this is the one
that most people who are really into this are familiar
with. Okay. If you're not really into it and not particularly
familiar with it, you may be one of those other ones, but this is the
one that gets talked about the most. Okay. And it is described by the people
who believe it as the one that is the most literal. Okay. And the way
it describes it, you know, you got Jesus, and that Holy Spirit, the church is
here, and then at some point at an undetermined time, there
will be a 7 year tribulation on the earth, a
literal 7 years of pain and tribulation
on the earth, and that and this guy called antichrist will come.
There'll be a one world government, a wool a one world religion.
He's gonna establish this kind of
anti God, anti Jesus,
harsh one world regime. And there'll be a
time in the first part of it where people who aren't Christians will think,
this is actually really good. This is gonna is, I guess, gonna
be great. Like, there are a lot of people right now that would love for
there to be a one world government, and then we're all united under one government,
one religion, and it sounds really good in a lot of ways. And it will
be presented, and it will exist in a way that that seems
good except for the Christians that are around that are gonna be like, you're
rejecting you're rejecting Jesus. This isn't good. Right.
But then there will come a point even in that 7 years where even the
people who were like, I like this guy are gonna be like, wait. Turns out
he's a bad Not that great. He's a bad guy. Yeah. And things are just
gonna get progressively worse and worse over the course of the
7 years. And then at the end of that
7 years, Jesus is going to
come and establish
a a literal kingdom on the earth. Mhmm. So
they will have to be some sort of battle, not
the epic battle, but they have to be some way which Jesus kind of
cleans house a little bit. Takes over from the one world leader. And and takes
over as reigning as a literal king on the earth Okay.
For literally a 1000 years. Right. After that 1000
years is over, again, the last remnants of
evil in the world, will unite
and try to overthrow Jesus the king.
Mhmm. Jesus will rally his forces, both spiritual and physical,
and there will be an epic battle of the end of the world referred to
as Armageddon. Armageddon. And
Jesus will win, and then after that, there will be a new heaven
and a new earth. Right. And so there is a 1000 year reign,
but Jesus comes before that. He comes
before it and establishes it. A premillennial as opposed to a postmillennial,
we bring about the kingdom and then Jesus comes. Right.
Or the amillennial, there is no such thing. It's all metaphorical.
It is that is just a a a spiritual description
of the reality of who Jesus is in the hearts and lives
of the capital c church and Christians as individuals.
Yeah. So to tell you how far removed I was from understanding any of this,
you know, the Megalodon?
You're talking about the giant shark? Yes. I thought Armageddon
was another monster like the Megalodon. Okay. And
so you said it in your talk, and I was like Most people's familiarity
comes with it from the Bruce Willis movie. I know. And I'm,
movie wise, uneducated and haven't seen it. Well, I mean,
how old were you in, what, 1997?
I was a Chris 98. 98? I am. Chris
4. Okay. Yeah. But you're
familiar with the Aerosmith song. Right? Nope.
Don't wanna close my eyes. Is that
called Armageddon? All the sleep because I miss you,
baby. Is that from that movie? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Ben Affleck
and Tyler have his there's a love story. In in addition to it possibly being
the end of the world, Liv Tyler and Ben Affleck are falling in love.
That's really epic. And that is that is that is a song. That is that
it it it revitalized Aerosmith's career for the
2nd time. I love that. They were great, then they were gone. Then Run DMC
brought them back in the eighties, and they were gone for a little bit. And
then you say, you know, Walk This Way. Absolutely. That's a Run
DMC. Run DMC. It's incredible. One of the most important pieces of
music in music history, I would argue, but that's a different podcast.
Really? I mean, as far as, like, the impact that it had I mean, yes.
Culturally. Massive, and you brought 2 genres together that For the first time.
Yeah. Okay. We could debate it at another podcast. There's no there's
no debate. I mean, I'm not saying it's the most important, but to say that
that is one of the top in pop music history, that's one of the top
most influential Okay. Important songs. There's no
anyways, Beatles on Ed Sullivan.
Okay. I do agree with that one. Armageddon, end
of the world. Right? And so Armageddon, it's you know,
it you know, that movie is about a potential end of the world. And so
that's what this Armageddon is. And so there is there again, so it's
all centered around this 1000 year reign, this 1000
year kingdom. It doesn't exist. I'm a millennialist. We bring it
about ourselves, then Jesus comes back postmillennialist.
The world is getting awful. Jesus comes back to fix things, sets
up the rain, and then after the rain, Armageddon happens. Right.
So when you pre is the one that has the
7 year tribulation, all that,
in a different order, or did they not believe that'll happen at all
in the post tribulation or post You can't it's you can't
pin everyone down with one broad brush. Okay. But by and
large, the tribulation is just a descriptor
of how bad it is before we, Jesus, defy
the world. Okay. Okay. It is gonna be
but it is not a literal Right. Not a literal 7 years.
Mhmm. Again, that's why I would describe premillennialist
as the most literal even in the hood as I could be rightly said
completely literal. It is the most literal. Now that is a literal 7
years. They're definitely the most literal when it comes to
time frames. Mhmm. 7 years, 1000 years. Very literal
about that. And I think it's important to you to make sure while while we're
here, on the premillennialist, and this is kind of when you were saying
what the three things were, you got these words in there. Within premillennialism,
there are 3 different types of
that. Okay. And so the 7 year
tribulation time, some people believe in
what is called a rapture. Mhmm. And maybe you've heard that phrase before.
That phrase. Where Jesus comes back partially Mhmm. And
all the Christians get called up, and then they go up to heaven
with Jesus, but it's really not the second coming of Jesus. It's
like did you ever see the Lion King 1a half?
1a half. Yeah. No. Okay. Anyways, it's the Lion King 1 from,
Timon and Pumbaa's perspective. I did see that. A pure sequel.
Yes. They call it Lion King 1a half. Yes. I did see that. So it's
not Jesus coming back the second time. It's that he's like half. Like, he
sort of sort of comes back. Kinda like meat in the sky? Yeah. Meat in
the sky, and then go back up into heaven, but then later Jesus comes back.
Okay. And so if you believe in a rapture, and you believe
that that rapture happens before the tribulation,
then you are a pre tribulation,
premillennialist. Okay. So Jesus comes back partially at the
beginning of the tribulation. The 7 year tribulation happens.
Jesus comes back for real, establishes a 1000 year
kingdom, then Armageddon happens. So that perspective would
be saying that Christians are not here for the tribulation. Right.
The only Christians that will be here during the tribulation are people
that become Christians in the tribulation. Okay. Okay.
So then a mid tribulation Mhmm. Person would be
someone who believes that there will be the
the first half of the tribulation, the first three and a half years. But before
it gets really bad, Jesus comes back.
The Christians go up. Those last three and a half years happen.
Jesus comes back for real, establishes the 1,000 year
kingdom. So a mid tribulation, premillennial.
Mhmm. Okay? Then there are premillennialists
who don't believe in a rapture that Jesus is going to sort of come back.
When he comes back, he's only coming back fully. Oh, yeah. So the tribulation
happens. All Christians that are around experience all of
it, and then post tribulation Jesus
comes back. Premillennial. So in the Right. So it happens right after
the tribulation, but before the millennial kingdom is when Jesus comes back. And
that is the only time that he comes back. There are no partial
rapture Right. Times. Right. And so
so the 3 main categories, amillennial, post millennial,
pre millennial, and then pre millennial gets broken down into
Even more. Do you also believe in a rapture? Right.
And if so, when does that rapture happen? The
pre trib would say that it happens before the tribulation, the mid tribs
would say it happens in the middle, and the post tribulation people would
say there is no such thing as the rapture. Okay.
Historically, Right? All 3
of the premillennial, amillennial, postmillennial have
had ups and downs in what people believe. Yes. People who
believe some of all of that. Wait just a
second. Mhmm. I'm
gonna double check
the battery. Historically
So historically, all three of these different
views have been around for a while. Mhmm. Pre millennial,
amillennial, post millennial, and they come in and out of favor.
And as we were talking about, in the previous episode,
there was a a lot of postmillennial talk in
kind of early America. Yeah. Especially around the Great Awakening,
the 2nd Great Awakening, these time periods where there just seemed to
be a lot of real interest in the gospel, where America seemed to
have this kind of destiny to kind of take over all of
North America, and they're just there was a lot of optimism
around the expansion of what was believed to be
good. America was good. It was a Christian nation. It had a
destiny to kind of be to take over all of this
and to rule and to take Jesus everywhere. There was a
lot of optimism around that
that even the civil war in the in the mid to
late 1800 couldn't couldn't dissipate that
because good triumphed.
Mhmm. So the all of a sudden, you get past
the 19th century into the 20 early 20th century,
then we get in around 1911, 1914, somewhere
around in there. And nothing happened. And all of a sudden, the
First World War happens. Right. And that
was a very, very dark time in the history of the world. Mhmm.
And so a lot of people, Christians included, lost a
lot of their what we'll just call kind of a post millennial
optimism. Right. An optimism that the world is on a
track to become progressively better. Yeah. That kinda
Right. Big time tanked it. But you can still but, again,
the good guys the good guys won. Ultimately did. Right. And so maybe
a few of us can hang on, but it is not 30 years
later Than another. That another World War
Mhmm. Starts worse than
the first one in a lot of ways, especially in a lot of
its religious components. Mhmm. Way worse.
And it really feels like that for the most part,
postmillennialism is dead.
Right. There might be still some some some little vestiges of
it from from from here here here to there, and there's some
people that still talk that way. A lot of missions people will
talk that way about that. We've got a job to do, and until we
do our job, Jesus won't come back. Right. Which is
a very postmillennial but a lot of people say it,
if you ask them, would say that they're premillennialist, but they But to talk like
let's talk like that. But but the nations have to be reached, and every
tribe and tongue has to be reached. Well, that could theoretically happen in the
tribulation. Right. Mhmm. I mean,
all the things that are going to happen that are described in the tribulation
about the way, how vividly God's gonna
raise up these witnesses. Supposedly, Moses and and
Elijah are coming back, and they're gonna be test
and and it's crazy the way the revelation describes it is. And they're gonna be
testifying in Jerusalem and the whole world is gonna see it. Right. How would
John even have a concept of that? That one thing could happen in
Jerusalem and the whole world can see it. He had a vision of Hunger
Games where the announcement comes, you know, and everybody
can see. If you were to make me say, Charlie, you have to become a
pre trib premillan whatever. Right? I have to become I have to a
100% buy into this. Yeah. I mean, the technology
that is described, I think, that the whole world will
witness events all at once. We're not quite there yet.
Mhmm. But we can definitely see it from where we are. We are very
close to the whole world being able to see an
event. Right. Yeah. And not just because it happens supernaturally
in the sky, like, we can all see the moon and the sun at the
same time, but just in a anyways.
And so so there's plenty of opportunity
for all the things that missions people think have to happen before Jesus comes to
happen in the tribulation. We can we can
talk about that without talking like postmillennialists. Right.
Because ultimately, just the optimism of the world
progressively getting better just went down. Yeah. I I I just don't really think there
are very many places, at least in Christian circles
That believe that. That believe that. You'll still hear hints
of it from time to time in non Christian or
Christian adjacent world. You ever that thing where, or,
you know, you miss all the shots you don't take? Jordan? Jordan
slash Michael Scott. Wayne Gretzky or whatever. Wayne Gretzky. Yeah. Yeah.
Slash slash Michael Scott. Yes. So there's a there's a there's a phrase that
Obama used to use that the arc of history is
long towards and it bends towards justice. Yeah. That is
a very postmillennial idea. Yeah. Mhmm.
Right? He got that from That, I don't know. I got it from
Martin
Luther. Gandhi.
Close. And so it's really you know, it has
has some Hinduism in it, co opted by probably
a guy. Maybe I might know for sure that Martin Luther King Junior had any
postmillennial. Right eschatology in it, but the and then co opted
again by Obama in a more secular,
political kind of ideal. But, you know, but
but that that that's the idea that there's still there's there are
still some places where that sort of optimism might
be expressed. But by people who take the Bible the most
literally, there is almost none of that. Right.
And so then it just becomes between really
premillennial and amillennial. And then amongst the premillennialist,
do you believe in the rapture or not? And the rapture is a fairly
new development. It didn't really come into any sort of
prominence, so maybe the late 1800, early
1900 with kinda which kind of included this kind
of resurgence in a very literal premillennialist
Muslim. And the people that kind of put this
idea together were initially, it's kinda like, okay, you guys are you guys are crazy.
You're taking this all of this way too literally. Mhmm.
And you you think that there's gonna be this rapture because this verse
here says that this one church in the first part of
Revelation is not gonna have to experience the worst
parts of the tribulation. So you're bringing that in. But then also, if you
take it all as literally as some of these premillennialists do, it
describes that Israel is gonna become a nation again. Mhmm. And a lot of this
is gonna happen within the nation of Israel. And in the late t late
1800, the idea that the nation of Israel would ever exist again
Right. Was insane. Right. Yeah.
So there's a lot of postmillennialism, lot of optimism. These
people come up with this idea of the rapture, the super literal idea
of premillennialism, the, the creation of
the nation state of Israel again. They sound like lunatics. Mhmm.
World War 1 happens, World War 2 happens, and then the nation of
Israel is reestablished by, by the
United Nations. And then suddenly, everybody's like
Well, maybe we need to give these guys another look. Right.
Right. Yeah. And so I say that it is probably in a
lot of Christian circles, the most popular and well known
version of eschatology. That's
true, But at the same time, it is a
relatively new development that caught on because of its ability
to seemingly predict Right. The establishment of Israel as a
nation state and coupled with the
crushing of optimism through 2 war wars. Mhmm.
And so now, again, a lot of the debate, especially in a lot of evangelical
circles happens around whether
or not there is or isn't a rapture. Like, listen. Significant
group of people out there. The debate is over. Premillennialism Is
it? Is it. Uh-huh. We just gotta decide if there is a rapture and
when there is a rapture. That that that is where the debate is. And, again,
if you came from, again, a gentler denomination or, you know, some
of your more mainline denominations like Methodism, Presbyterian, Lutherans,
those kinds of things like that, they're like, man, we're maybe, like, I don't really
know what you're talking about right now, which for most people then, I
would describe that most people who aren't in people who are,
quote, into it are some version of premillennial. Okay. The
people who aren't in it, I've I would say mostly are kinda
functional amillennialists Mhmm. Where it's like, things are gonna
get bad and Jesus is coming back. Yeah. Yeah.
Like And there's, like, the breakdown of I don't I mean So
that is one of my questions. What is the
what is the aim of people studying this? Is it to prepare,
or is it to just simply interpret scripture correctly?
I would say the primary goal in that is from people who believe that from
cover to cover, we need to fully understand everything that the
Bible says. Okay. That there that that it is in and of
itself a good thing to
know the Bible really well. Mhmm. That it
does not matter if it does or does not have a practical application.
The knowledge and understanding of what the Bible says
is an inherent good on its own. Mhmm. And
so there are people out there, theologians that would say that
would that would scoff at people who would say it doesn't
really matter. Right. You know, what he it's just one author
in particular first to it as eschatological
I have agnosticism. Okay. Eschatology
being the study of the end times and agnosticism being who
knows and who cares. Right. And so that he would describe
that as a moral a a morally bad thing. Right.
Because But that'd be more like the whole not wanting to know what the
Bible teaches and having a a thought on it.
Mhmm. Like like, to not have that would be a
it means you are and what? Spiritually lazy. Right. You're not interested in
the bible, and so knowing is enough. It doesn't
matter like what we talked about last episode whether or not you can come up
with any specific application for it. There's no there's no
specific application for knowing that
Elijah and Moses are gonna come back and preach for a certain period of
time, and they're gonna people are gonna try to kill them, but they can't.
The Beast can't overcome them until a certain period of time, and then when he
does, the Beast is gonna kill them. And then when the Beast kills
them, everybody's gonna be able to see it, and they're going to
basically establish a new Christmas around it. It's gonna be
something that becomes celebrated. The people are gonna give gifts to each other because
Moses and Elijah finally shut up. Like, is there an
application? No. Is there a practical application for me? I just dropped
5 to 6 sentences of just knowledge just right on you of what
pre millennialist think. This doesn't have any practical
application, but it's in there. Yeah. And so you should know it.
Yeah. There are gonna be a 144,000 witnesses
to Jesus that are all gonna come from ethnically
Jewish people, 12,000 from each tribe, and they're gonna be
roaming evangelists in the world. Do you do you
need to know that? Right. Is it gonna change anything about your
life tomorrow now that you know that? Mhmm. No. But it
is inherently a good thing that you know it because knowing stuff from
the Bible is in and of itself important. So
this is kicking it back to kind of some stuff we talked about the very
first episode of the SummerSlam series. Where would you put this in the
house? Right. Okay. So for guys who don't know we're
talking about, there's talk about everybody has to build a theological house.
The soil are the things that are essential to Christianity. Where am I gonna
put my house? I'm gonna put my house in the Christian soil. So I must
believe the things that are essential to Christianity, which for the most part,
I sum up around Jesus Christ died for sins. Mhmm. I need to know who
Jesus is, I need to know what sin is, I knew why his death has
anything to do with that. Right. Then the foundation are the, like, the
most important truths that you build in that dirt. What I
believe about the scripture, what I believe about the trinity, what I believe about,
you know, who
who the holy spirit is actively in my life. I those kinds of things. Right?
And then the important things are kind of the nature of my house, which are
the things that this distinguish one denomination from another. They're
important, but I don't think we should fight about them the way that we do,
whether or not, yeah, whether or not we should baptize babies or
not. It's imp that's important. It's important.
But I don't think we should I don't think we should fight over it, and
I don't think being wrong on that issue is going to have huge,
long lasting effects the way the Bible is just kinda
hit or miss. Take it or leave it. Like, that okay. That you can come
to Christ and believe that about the Bible, but you're gonna struggle if you
continue to believe that. And then we talk about then the interesting
things, which are kind of the decorative pieces. All due respect
to you, esque eschatology heads out there. Man, it
is it is the it is the
piece of art that you put in the guest bathroom downstairs.
Garden gnome? Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's
it's the it's it's the piece of decorative thing for your
yard that your grandma gave you 7 years ago, but she's still
alive. And so I have to keep it. Display it. Right? Yeah. Right? But it's
like it's okay. Make it has it has a
there's a reason why I have it, but it's not like
it's not critical to the survival of the house. Yeah. The
pieces of this that are critical to the survival of the house are the things
that we talked about last episode Mhmm. Which are
Jesus will win. I have hope in this world and then and in the next
no matter how bad things go. Yeah. And I'm not gonna get deceived about
when or if Jesus is coming back. Yeah. He is coming back.
He's coming back in this way, not this way, and I have hope in
I have hope in him no matter how bad this world gets. Mhmm.
I think that is important bordering
on foundational. Mhmm.
But whether or
not whether or not I believe it's Moses
and Elijah, or Elijah and Enoch that are gonna be the 2
Jewish witnesses, and whether or not I
understand or who? He says that the Antichrist is gonna come from the
East. Mhmm. East of where and how far East?
Right? Come on, man. Yeah. We're now we're
just talking about varying shades of white that you're gonna paint your
kitchen. Yeah. No. It's not white. It's eggshell. Like, okay, bro.
And it matters. I hear my wife talk like that about varying
paint colors. Right? And I know that it is important to
her, But it is not a structure is
not structurally keeping the house up. Right. Yeah.
Yeah. So, ultimately, from all of this,
it's a book of the Bible. It's worth reading because it is a book of
the Bible. Right. It also can affirm your hope
that we have in Jesus and that he will
overcome the world, has however you wanna phrase that.
And then there's really interesting things you can get into. Right.
But not necessarily, like, you have to read the book of John to understand
your faith. Yeah. I understand why people find it interesting, and
this is why I use that particular word. This is interesting to me, and
it is great. You wanna study something that is interesting to you.
Great. But it's not important enough for us to get angry with each
other because you're a mid trib Right. Premillennialist,
and I'm a post trib premill you know, I have to
fight about it. But sometimes we fight about things because, well, that means you
don't understand the Bible, Abigail. And if you don't understand the Bible, maybe you don't
even really believe, and then we just Right. Right. But I
I mean, it's not it's interesting, and it's in there. So it's great to
learn, but there are certainly truths that are
significantly more important and
foundational than that. Yeah. Do you feel
like you have enough questions where we could have a 3rd episode, or we're about
to wrap this up right now? I don't have any more questions.
I'm glad that you shielded the mic from hearing what you just said. I don't
know why I did that. That was such a dumb thing to do. Such a
dumb thing to do. I guess in my brain, it was a way of communicating
to you. Secret. Secret. I am taking I am taking this offline.
I I'm now taking this offline with you so that you know not
because anything that happens here. Okay.
And so there's a lot of things that you could we could we could say
about it. I mean, there, I mean, there there is if you've read the Left
Behind books, if you've been to any of these seminars, I mean, it goes
into a significant amount of detail about who the antichrist
is and where he comes from and the mark of the beast and the significance
of the 144,000 witnesses. And I have lots
of information and data in my head about that that some people find
interesting and some people don't. I'm getting the impression from the look on your
face that it is
I'm probably an Amel in you. Yeah. No. You're probably
eschatological agnostic. Yeah. I don't really I don't really don't care enough
to think about it too much. Right? And so, I mean, like, in a different
and so, like, we did at at at summer seminar was I just kinda spent
some time. I took some questions. I kinda went into some of those details to
kind of people who have some anxiety or fear about it. But, you
know, it is not important enough to me to
be like, Abigail, we need to keep talking about this until because you guys
really need to understand when it says east.
Right. It's talking about east of Israel, which we used in the
eighties, we thought was Russia. But, you know, it's even
well, because those those were clearly the villains. If there was ever going to
be a villain Okay. Okay. During the Cold War, it was gonna be from
Russia. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. So it all made sense. But you know what's this
even further east of Israel than Russia?
The United States. Oh, yeah. That's Also Tokyo. Also
Tokyo. Right? I mean, so how far east do you have
to go before? Actually, that's west. We think of ourselves as
the west. Right. But that's because we we decided we were
gonna Make the map this way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well,
east of Israel could be anything. Right? And so there's some people like to
speculate about that, and it's like I was like, that's why it was, oh,
you know, where Obama's from? Like, oh, please stop.
Hell, you know, Gorbachev or Krusheath or what I like, whatever
whatever villain of the day is. Right? Anybody can be
east of Israel. But, again, these are the kind of things that for some people
are interesting to talk about. And so I don't want you
us to think that I am avoiding talking about this. But I just wanna make
sure that we've got a general understanding of it. But as always, if you've
got questions about this and you're thinking, no, I
was really hoping Abigail was gonna pepper him with nonstop
Sure. Eschatology questions, you feel free to pepper
us with nonstop eschatology questions, and we'll pick it up later.
Info@thegrovechurch.org, and we would love to hear any questions you have about
that. Or, honestly, really any theological issue that you have, you think would
be interesting, important for us to talk about, we'd love to hear it. I'm always
looking for ideas for other things to talk about. But I think I
think we're done. I think that's it. Yeah. And so again, our our my greatest
desire and hope is that you will as you encounter the book of
Revelation or different views on eschatology that you would always
walk away with hope and peace and a God who's got
things under control and not anxiety about the future.
Because sometimes people get real anxious that they're gonna
accidentally get the mark of the beast, that you're gonna get tricked
into rejecting Jesus and being condemned forever, or
we need to we need to be actively working against that, but at the same
time actively supporting Israel. And we just kind of have all of
these kind of like that there are very strong political
applications to this as if God needs our help
Mhmm. In making this happen or that
we're being called to kind of prevent some of these things. It's kind of
weird. And as most things, I don't think there's a
political application to this. I mean,
this is gonna unfold
exactly the way that God said it would. And our goal in this
is not to vote differently. It is to trust God
fully. Right. So thanks for being kind of the
foil for this, kind of the bouncing off these ideas off of kinda great
and great job as always, asking great questions and really glad that all of you
joined us. And again, we would love to hear from you. Any ideas that you
have, questions you have, we, the times I've gotten those, we've taken
them all very seriously. And it has been the inspiration
for podcast series in the past. So we would love as much of that as
you wanna give. And as always, we would love to catch you on a Sunday
morning, connect with you, help you in any way that we can. And as
always, thanks again for joining us on the cultivate podcast.
Thank you for listening to the cultivate podcast. Our hope is that you are taking
steps to go deeper in your faith that you're asking big questions and you're
looking for answers. We hope that we can be a resource for you
through our podcast and any other way that we can help you. You can find
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again, thank you so much for joining us.