Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who
have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they
got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them.
How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success,
and most importantly, find joy.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
Welcome back to Live Free, Ride Free, where we talk to people who are living
self actualized lives and finding out what we can learn from them.
And how we can self actualize more.
So today I've got a rather interesting man.
I've got Victor Barna, who is both a techie he's up there in
Seattle, teching away, and we're going to ask him about that.
And he's also the author of a book, of a new thriller, about the racing
industry, the horse racing industry.
Which is doing quite well.
And he's a lifelong passionate devotee of the racing industry.
His book delves into some of the darker sides of the racing industry,
which of course is pretty interesting.
Makes it interesting as a thriller and it joins a long line of racing thrillers by
authors such as Dick Francis and so on.
But at the same time he does draw attention to some of the things
within that industry that could do better, that could use some reform.
And also he's in a position to sort of talk about how as a young boy in Long
Island growing up far from horses, he sort of Managed to self actualize both
as a, as a geek and as someone who fell in love with the horse and Speed and
that the sort of beauty and of the whole aesthetic and has managed to sort of
marry the two things together in a rather interesting way While living in You
know, a quiet private life and, you know, the sort of life that most of us lead.
So I think for those of you who are interested in how do you write a good
book and how do you self publish it, those of you who are interested in
the racing industry, those of you who are interested in tech, and how
the whole tech boom has happened and where it's going and all that, I
think Victor's got a lot to tell us.
And his book Heliacal Star sort of serves as a bit of a
nexus for all of these things.
So, welcome to Live Free Ride Free, Victor.
Please tell us a little bit about who you are and how you came to be.
Victor Bahna: Well, thank you for, for the invite and thank
you for having me on today.
I really appreciate it.
And as far as, you know, my, my story is, as you referenced, I,
I grew up on Long Island not You know, from a geographic perspective,
just a few miles from JFK airport.
So, pretty close to to New York City and not a place where you necessarily
find a lot of horses, unless you're at Belmont racetrack, which is also
kind of on the New York City line.
And not too far from where I grew up and that's, that's where I actually
was first introduced to to any kind of a horse through through, through the
racing business when I was probably not legal to be gambling on horses.
I found my way to to the racetrack and it was at a time where.
We actually had to ask other older people to make our bets for us because we would
get carded and and not allowed to bet.
But that was my first that was my first experience with
with horses and with racing.
And it was very alluring.
It was very intoxicating.
There was a bit of a taboo in the sense of, you know, we weren't legal to do that.
So we had that sort of allure but there was also this, this potential for
making money by doing a little homework, understanding, you know, how to read
a racing form and, and handicap and putting ourselves in a position where we
could possibly win, win a few dollars.
And then after winning a couple of dollars, a few times, you know, that.
Also sort of became an interesting hobby, let's say amongst
myself and a few of my friends.
And so this is this is where we spent our, our classroom time in in high
school, oftentimes, you know, inside of our textbooks, we would find some of
the past performances of the racetracks.
And instead of paying attention to the, the instruction of the
day, we would be figuring out who was going to win the late double.
And that was that was a fun
Rupert Isaacson: bus.
In other words,
Victor Bahna: Yes, we were doing calculus and math and statistical analysis back
then we were we were a little ahead of our time, I guess, in that sense.
And this is, of course, before the Internet and before the Sort
of the tech boom, so to speak.
So, you know, everything was on paper back then, and we had our our pens
and markings and all that other stuff.
That was seems like a very long time ago.
And, you know, what?
How do you say it?
Long time ago in a place far, far away.
And so, after college, went to, went to college on Long Island as well.
Found myself employed at a personal products company called Unilever,
which you may be familiar with.
Rupert Isaacson: I went to school next door to the head office.
Victor Bahna: Ah, okay.
There you go.
In the city of London.
Yeah.
Yep.
It was anglis, Anglo Dutch company.
Mm-Hmm.
. It had had headquarters in in, in London, excuse me, and in Netherlands.
And so I spent my first eight years of my career working in supply.
For in New York City for Unilever, the subsidiary was called Lever
Brothers in in New York City.
It was quite a, quite a nice place.
It was on Park Avenue.
And so I got to have that experience of, of working in downtown
Manhattan for for about 8 years.
And I got a call from Microsoft at that time, and it was 1995, and they were
looking for someone to, this is when we were still doing a lot of shrink rep.
1995 product for for tech.
So everything was in a, in a floppy disk.
CDs weren't even out yet at that time.
So everything was boxed up in floppy disks and, and there was a supply
chain, and believe it or not for for technology back then, and Microsoft
was trying to launch their windows 95 product, and we're looking for someone
to help them with their supply chain.
So I interviewed, got the job.
We ended up going from New York to Seattle.
Which is where I am today, ended up spending 17 years at Microsoft.
And I went from the interesting thing about Microsoft at that time
was you can actually reinvent your career without changing your company.
They were very much a company that looked at your skills and your talent.
And they understood that even if you weren't necessarily.
Deep in one particular domain, we could train you in that domain.
If you had different skills, like leadership skills and.
Acumen for learning and so forth.
So I actually ended up going from supply chain while I was at Microsoft into it.
And my first exposure to it was running their internal help desk, which I did
for a couple of years, but the help desk I thought was the best way for
me to get introduced into tech because I got to learn everything through the
problems people were experiencing.
And these were users.
Of Mike, since it was an internal help desk, it wasn't for external
customers, but it helped me understand where people were running into issues.
And it was actually in almost a backwards way of learning.
But, but you, because typically when you learn in a textbook, you're learning about
how things are supposed to work and I was learning about things because they were
broken and kind of reverse engineering back to how it should be working.
And so that was a very unique, but I thought pretty powerful way for me to
to get into it and to get into tech.
And started out managing vendors initially, but then, you know, when you
immerse yourself in that environment.
You start to pick up and learn the jargon and the technology
and it evolved from there.
I ended up doing several things in the tech space, or in the IT
space, I should say with Microsoft.
Then they started launching their online services which you may know
today as it's Azure and it's Office 365 or the sort of Charter products
that they, that they offer on online.
And so, I did some, some work with with those groups.
Went to another company called ServiceNow back in 2012.
Spent a few years with them and then ended up with my current
company which is Nutanix.
When I was at Microsoft, it was probably about, I want, I want to
say about 10 years into the gig at Microsoft, where I was fortunate enough
to have accumulated some some equity.
And I started to revisit my interest in horses at that time.
So I went to a local racetrack here called Emerald downs.
And after a couple of visits to their track, I kind of got that because, because
for a long time between really, you know, my college years and this you know, 10
years into Microsoft, I hadn't spent a lot of time at the races with horses, because
I'd just been super busy, you know, with work and the family and young kids
and all the stuff that comes with that.
And so finally, I got to the point where, Hey, I have a little bit of time.
I have a little bit of money went back to the racetrack and that feeling came
back in terms of the excitement and the allure, but this time I was looking at
it from a slightly different perspective and I went to what, what they had an
owners or potential owners seminar and a couple of trainers were speaking at
the seminar and it just, it just was something that seemed like it would
be a really interesting, you know,
Pursuit to maybe get into the ownership side of, of racing.
And Emerald downs is not your Belmont or Saratoga, or, you
know, the Santa Anita or Del Mar.
It's not one of your bigger venues.
So the entry point into ownership is not very high compared to
some of those other places.
The, the, the cost of a horse is going to be a little bit lower.
The day rate's going to be a little bit lower.
So it's a.
It was an easier place to.
Rupert Isaacson: What's the day rate?
What does that mean?
Victor Bahna: The day rate would be what you're paying your trainer basically for
the boarding and training feeding care of your horse when they're out of the track
and those day rates can vary quite a lot.
Back then it was probably 50 or 55 a day in Washington state where yeah,
If you were in some of the bigger circuits like Del Mar or or New York, it
would be over a hundred dollars a day.
So almost a two X difference in, in day rate.
And you know, over the course of 30 days, that can, that can add up quite a bit.
Yeah.
So, so I did, I, I ended up claiming a horse.
What is my first claiming horse, claiming horse basically is every horse that's in
a claiming race is effectively for sale.
And what you would do is you would Make sure you've got the funds at the
bookkeeper ahead of the race and you would file a form that would basically be
a claim form that, that says you intend to buy this horse, you've got the funds
which means after the race is over, that horse becomes yours, but the results of
the race still go to the previous owner.
What makes claiming interesting is that it's a bit of a.
It levels the playing field quite a bit with with the races in the U.
S., because if you're putting your horse up for sale for, let's say, 20,
000 and your horse can't compete at that level, then you're going to have
to drop that horse into a lower level.
So you might have to drop them into a 10, 000 race or even a 5, 000 race
where they become more competitive.
That makes them more likely to be claimed or sold, you
know, in that race as an owner.
You don't know if that horse is, you don't know if another owner has made a claim on
your horse until after the race is over.
So you don't have the option of, let's say, withdrawing your horse because, oh,
wait, I don't want this horse to get sold.
So therefore I'm going to pull them out of the race at the last minute.
You don't know if anyone's putting in a claim, so you don't really.
have a you're not going to be able to make that decision.
So that's what I ended up doing is I put in a claim for this horse.
I was able if, and if there could be multiple claims also for any particular
horse how do they decide who wins
Rupert Isaacson: the claim?
Victor Bahna: Well, what they would do is they would put your effectively, they
put your names in a hat and they pull one out and they say, okay, you're the winner
of this this particular claim to actually use lottery balls and everyone gets
assigned a lottery ball and they shake them up and they pull one out and whoever
is the lucky or unlucky person that has that number ends up with the horse.
I say lucky or unlucky because if the horse runs well, you want to
be the one that wins that horse.
And if the horse runs really poorly, you're hoping that maybe someone
else will, will, will get that horse.
So, so that's, that's one of the eight ways in which you can, you
can actually become an owner of a racehorses by just you know.
You say eight ways.
It's one of the ways, sorry.
There's, there are multiple, there are definitely multiple ways in
which you can acquire a racehorse.
This is probably the, the One of the easier ways, it's one of the least risky
ways, but it also has limited upside, because you've also seen that horse
likely perform on the racetrack at least once or twice, or maybe multiple times,
so you kind of know what you're getting.
As long as the horse stays sound and in this case, I was able to to, to get
my first racehorse and, and it kind of took off from there in terms of
my, my level of interest, my ownership and my passion, really, I mean, you,
you mentioned actualization, I think that might've been the start of my
actualization because, you know, it led to so many different things for me,
including getting to the point where I was retiring some horses for various reasons
and decided that I wanted to, well, this is actually where I learned quite
a bit about what happens to these horses potentially after they're done racing.
And some of the outcomes are not very good, especially for the horse.
And so this is where I decided that I was going to make sure that, you
know, my horses, if I'm retiring them, are not going to end up in a
situation where, you know, they're going to be put at any kind of risk.
So I ended up Keeping a couple and one of the horses that I, that I
did keep, he's he's currently an 18 year old thoroughbred and I ride
him on a pretty regular basis now.
So, I, I started getting into riding lessons.
I started to work with him on a, on a regular basis, learned
a lot of horsemanship in, in the process of doing that.
And also built a relationship with him to the point where At first it was a
situation where I wasn't really sure, you know, what to do or what he wanted.
And now we're at a point where I feel like we communicate with
each other very effectively.
Like I could read his, his signs and he tends to read mine actually.
And it's, it's quite an interesting relationship now
that I've, I've built with him.
So that's also part of the kind of that whole process that I've been through
with regard to having that experience.
And it's, it's one of those things.
That I feel is hard to explain unless you experience it yourself.
You know, you can, you can talk about it and it's kind of like watching a show
versus, you know, or watching a travel show versus visiting the travel site.
Having that experience and, and having that relationship with with this horse
was, is, and continues to be a, a very fulfilling and mostly positive experience.
Why
Rupert Isaacson: is the relationship with the horse fulfilling?
Victor Bahna: It, he's become a counterbalance to the stresses
in the world of tech for me.
The horse is bringing me back to nature.
It's bringing me back to a it's.
It's not a machine.
You know, some people think of our horses, especially racehorses and
machines, and they're just going to do the same thing every time.
He's definitely not a machine.
I didn't know that you can actually have this kind of a relationship
with a horse where you can, you can, you can really relate.
To him, I, I actually joke around sometimes and I'm, I'm partially
serious though, in the sense that he's, he's become very therapeutic for me
in, in managing some of my stresses.
Just being able to
spend time with him and just general lessons that I've learned from him,
like with a horse, you don't, you don't escalate, you deescalate when
you're in a situation where things are getting a little bit testy.
When you're on, on.
When you're riding a horse.
It's best to try to relax and not be nervous, because if you're nervous, he's
going to get nervous, and if he gets nervous, then he's going to get on edge,
and if he's on edge, then he's going to spook, and then if he spooks, you might
get thrown from the horse, and it's almost counterintuitive, because your instincts
are to Grab the horse with your legs and hold on and make sure you don't fall off.
But that's really the opposite of what you want to be doing.
And so this is the kind of stuff that I, that I learned in, in just
interacting with him, learning to read his, his body language.
Like if he reacted to something, maybe it's not because he's being fresh.
Maybe he's.
Not feeling well, or he's got an issue, and, you know, we find out that, oh, he's
got an abscess, or he's got, he's got a scratch somewhere, or, you know, some
kind of a cut somewhere or, you know, just being sensitized to some of that,
and sometimes he is being a brat, and being able to understand the differences
between when he's just being, you know, a little playful, let's say, versus,
versus, you know, having, having some issues, so a lot of this really was, you
know, was grounding for me in the sense that you can't just bully a horse either.
You have to learn to work with them as a teammate.
You have to cooperate with them.
You could try to, you know, in the old days, I guess this is what
we did is we, we broke horses.
We still call it breaking, even though we don't necessarily follow
the same process that we did, you know, 40, 50, 60 years ago.
But breaking the will of the horse is not how you're going
to build that relationship.
But understanding you've got a thousand or 1200 pounds.
of animal that if you don't learn how to work with them, it's just not going to
be a great experience for either of you.
So a lot of these things really kind of came through in In my relationship
with this horse and, and a lot of those things I'm able to carry through in
my job as well, you know, I, again, like deescalating, you know, people,
especially with electronic communications can be, you know, keyboard warriors,
as we say, and you know, they don't necessarily mean everything that they're
saying, but if you can just kind of.
Just assume good intent with with what people are trying to communicate and
then just rephrase it or just kind of,
Victor Bahna (2): you know,
Victor Bahna: tone things down a little bit, you know, things tend to get done
a lot, a lot better than when you're when you're, you know, combating it
or, or raising the bar, so to speak, or taking it to the next level.
And, you know, I don't know if I would have, you know, Gotten there.
If I didn't have some of these experiences with did you used to be
Rupert Isaacson: a tech escalator?
Like, was there a time when you were like, Oh, I
Victor Bahna: was a hothead.
I was total hothead.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
In what way?
Because I presume that, okay, we all, you know, know what internet trolls
are like, and we all know that people feel bolder behind the keyboard than
they would standing face to face on the street, obviously say things they would
never say to anyone's face, but That's a given, but I would have thought that if
you were going to pursue and then keep a good career with, for example, Microsoft,
surely they would be looking for people that were not like that because at the end
of the day those people cause conflict and conflict is a draining of resources rather
than a, you know, Bringer of resources.
So when you were, say you were a hothead, were you a hothead at Microsoft?
And if so, like, how did you get away with that?
Or did they even encourage that at the company?
And when did you find perhaps in the short term that it worked for you or
did it always work against you and you just sort of didn't know, in which
case, sort of, how didn't you get fired?
Like, talk, talk us through that a little bit.
Victor Bahna: Sure.
I think in the early days of tech and I was fortunate enough to be sort of
in those early days of of technology.
It was more about results.
It was, you need to deliver results and it didn't really
matter how you got those results.
Rupert Isaacson: And what results were you being expected to get?
Victor Bahna: In, in my case, it was ensuring that we had enough product.
It was ensuring that we you know, had the right, and again, back to the
package product days when I started at, at Microsoft, it was all about ensuring
that the stores had product, but that we didn't have too much product where it was.
Costing us a lot of money to, to hold that product or to, or
to buy an expense, that product.
And so that was where the pressure was, is you had to sort of hit
that sweet spot with regard to the amount of inventory that you carried
Rupert Isaacson: that's when you were on the, on the, on the product
line, right on the, that's what,
Victor Bahna: yeah, on the supply.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And I can, I can see people.
Being aggressive about getting a good deal.
But once you moved over to Microsoft and you made the shift to tech itself,
did that hotheadedness stay with you?
And that escalatory thing and how did that not negatively
impact your career basically?
Victor Bahna: I think it, I think I wasn't 100 percent hothead, so I should probably
qualify that but there were definitely moments where I was, I was very pushy.
I would, I would require you know, people to be working probably
hours that were not reasonable.
I pushed myself where I was working probably,
I would, I would get to the, I would leave my house probably around 7 a.
m.
most days.
Get to the office by 730 and I would probably wouldn't come home till you
know, 8 9 o'clock A lot of nights and then again we weren't necessarily on on
laptops at home then And that and and because I was doing that that was my
expectation of other people as well But
Victor Bahna (2): you know,
Victor Bahna: I I I Kind of pushed people into doing things that I look
back on today and think, you know, that probably wasn't the right thing to do,
but at the time it was the corporate
Rupert Isaacson: culture of the time.
Yeah, it
Victor Bahna: was to a large extent and and results mattered.
And so if we needed to work, well, 14, 15 hours a day, you know, over several weeks
or months, you know, that's what we did.
And I pushed my team to to do that as well.
And, you know, sometimes.
You know, they wouldn't necessarily agree with all that.
And, you know, that's when the the terseness might might come
into play in terms of, you know, we have to get this done.
This is our job.
This is what we're paid for.
And it wasn't necessarily very friendly or encouraging or motivating.
And, and in time, you know, I did, as I, as I aged, you know, I, I learned
some self introspection, but I think it really kicked in a lot more when I started
working with with the retired resource.
I think that was when everything really came together for me and,
and my tone and behavior probably shifted much more towards the.
Let's, let's really work together.
Let's be much more positive.
Let's be more encouraging.
Let's be more motivating.
And that continues.
It's so it's always a working process.
I mean, but I have learned to to not react as much from from where I was
back in my early days of my career.
You would send an email back then and.
You know, six hours, day later, you'd, you'd be like, why did I send that email?
You almost regret it.
And so, you know, that, that restraint wasn't there, you know, the, the
filters weren't there and, and you know, maybe I would have gotten there.
Maybe I wouldn't have.
But I do think that the awareness that I gained by working with the racehorse
was, was taking it to a new level for me.
And and I, and I genuinely appreciate you know, how, however that came to be.
However, things ended up working out.
I, I genuinely appreciate the fact that he's in my life and, and we've
built a really strong relationship.
Rupert Isaacson: Now you, you now own a resource owning syndicate Royal Victory.
Thoroughbreds, is that correct?
Victor Bahna: That's correct.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: and you're also you're not just owning racehorses
You're breeding them Tell us a little bit about why you got into that and
then i'm going to ask you a couple of I'm going to warn you in advance
slightly challenging questions about the racing industry because I I know it.
From several different sides and I know You know what's not good about
it as well as what's good about it.
So you're now
Working on, if you like, perpetuating the industry.
What
prompts you to get together with other groups of owners for the syndicate,
you all own a share and a horse, etc.
What's the motivation there?
What's the motivation for the breeding?
And what do you feel it's bringing to the world?
And then I want to go a little bit into your book and then let's
talk about the industry a bit.
Victor Bahna: Yeah, sure.
Rupert Isaacson: Sounds good.
Victor Bahna: I'll start with breeding.
So, as I mentioned a bit earlier, horses, tend to run into issues at some
point in their career where they're not going to be competitive anymore.
I had a, a mare who had won a couple of races and she was not
going to be able to run anymore.
In fact, she, she came down with a suspensory injury.
And
Rupert Isaacson: can you explain what a suspensory injury is for those?
Yeah, it's,
Victor Bahna: it's, it's an injury.
Of the ligaments in the, in, in her case, it was her right front foreleg and between
the knee and the the ankle or the fetlock.
And what happens is those, those, those ligaments are very
tight when, when a racehorse.
And if they end up pulling or injuring those ligaments, they end up becoming
less it affects their ability to to run quite frankly, because you know,
that that tautness isn't there anymore.
It's it's kind of like think of your own leg in that sense.
There are some bones that connect into those ligaments.
And one of those bones and I think it's called the sesamoid, is what
this particular mare had fractured.
After a race that she had been in, and my 1st reaction was, Oh, no,
because you hear about, you know, horses injuring legs and they get
they get euthanized on the racetrack.
And that was my 1st fear was, Oh, my gosh, you know, minus situation where we're
going to have to put this horse down.
And so I, I.
Went right back to the barn after, after that race and spoke with the
veterinarian and the veterinarian said that you know, she's got an injury.
It's most likely a career ending injury.
And my first question was, is she Is she going to be okay, though?
You know, are we going to have to put her down?
And he reassured me, though, that we wouldn't have to do that.
In fact, in this case, it wouldn't even require surgery, but she
would need at least a year off.
And we would have to nurse it back so that, you know, she
gained, regained her health.
Actually, I don't, actually, I don't remember if there was surgery or not.
I don't think there was.
Suspensory,
Rupert Isaacson: it's just, basically, nine months of
rest is usually the, the cure.
Yeah.
Victor Bahna: Yeah.
I don't, yeah, I don't think there was any any surgery for this.
Anyway, she so I've got this horse that is never going to race again.
And what do I do with this horse?
And, and I thought, well, you know, let me, let me see if I can breed the horse.
She had good pedigree and she had good confirmation which is, which is how
they're built, it's bone structure.
And I thought she would maybe make a potentially good broodmare.
So that's really how I got started in the breeding business is I thought
it would be good to keep her to give her a home and to see if she can
produce some, some babies that would eventually make it to the racetrack.
And that's, that's, I, I've done that with a couple of mares.
I've got, I've got two mares today that were former racehorses
of mine that I'm breeding.
One is On the East coast, one of them on the West coast.
And it's been, it's been a good experience in the sense of learning sort of the
whole life cycle of of, of the racing process from researching stallions to
paying for stud fees, to pulling the baby, to watching them grow up, it's getting
them to the racetrack and then even, you know, past that in terms of retirement,
The partnership came about because I thought it would be, I, I.
Get very excited.
I don't think there's many circumstances as, as an older adult now, in
which I get to act like a child.
And so one of the experiences is when you're at the racetrack and
you're, you're, you're watching your racehorse run, you can, you
can act like a bit of a child.
You know, you could scream at the top of your lungs.
You can, you could feel that.
That thrill and excitement.
When, when they're coming down the lane, you know, and they're, they've
got a chance of winning that race.
You could also feel sort of the, sort of the, the, the crushing
weight of defeat when when they lose and, and the utter disappointment
that comes with with it's going to
Rupert Isaacson: happen more often, you know, odds are, yeah.
Victor Bahna: Odds are it's not going to happen.
Yeah, exactly.
You're going to, you're going to lose a lot more than you're going to win.
And so, I, the rollercoaster of emotions that you go through is just, it's
just one of those unique experiences.
And, and it's just, I, in my, in my experiences, it's just not
something that you could find in, in, in a lot of different areas.
I mean, you can, you can invest your money in, in the stock market, but you're not
going to be screaming at a stock ticker.
Maybe you are, but you know, most, most people aren't going to be
screaming at a stock ticker like they are, you know, a horse race.
You can go to sporting events and, you know, watch football or, or
hockey or something like that.
And you can get into the, into the game itself.
But nothing in my opinion really kind of matches the, the sense of excitement.
And, and knowing is that you're, you're a you're a participant in the sport.
You're not just a spectator.
I think really.
Raises the bar, so to speak.
And so I wanted to share that with some of my some of my colleagues and
friends and give them the opportunity to do the same, and they might not
necessarily have done the research or understand, you know, what it's like,
you know, how to get into the game.
So providing them a really easy entrance ramp with regard to participating letting
them have that experience as well.
And, you know, if they, if they feel that same level of excitement, then great.
You know, they can, they can continue to you know, to.
To purchase shares in, in in horses.
And if they don't, that's, that's okay as well.
They can, they can always step out.
There's not a, a long, you know, everlasting commitment that they have.
And, and to, to the large extent, you know, the folks that I've, I've
brought into the partnership have, have been have been pretty optimistic.
I think, I think they've, they've enjoyed the experience that they've had.
And I generally do everything at cost.
I'm not trying to make money off of a partnership.
So whatever the actual charges that I see, I just pass them on to you
know, to the different partners so that they're not feeling like they're
getting, you know, having to pay a premium or anything like that.
For me, it's just being able to share the experience and giving
them that opportunity as opposed to, you know, me trying to make
a dollar or two off of them.
We let the performance on the racetrack decide if we're
going to make money or not.
And so it also makes, makes it more.
Of me having a vested interest in the success of the horses in which
they're owning because I'm also going to own a, you know, a good percentage
of each of those horses as well.
Rupert Isaacson: So it's a passion thing.
Victor Bahna: It's definitely a passion thing.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And then let's talk a little bit more about passion and then let's go back
to, to the thoroughbred industry.
So you've now written a book and you've written a book about A darker side of
the industry and also writing a book is a passionate process and you've self
published it and that's not easy I've self published a book and I I know a little
bit about what goes into that Tell me, you know, why did you decide to do that?
How did you make it work?
There'll be a lot of listeners there who are flirting with the
idea of self publishing and each year the landscape on that, the
geography on that, changes a bit.
You know, the last time I did it was, I think, back in 2015 or 14 or so.
And I know things have changed since then.
So talk to us about your experience.
Why did you decide to do it?
How did you as a non writer get to a point where you could write a book, which is,
is, it's picked up some very good reviews.
And why did you choose the particular subject matter, the sort of darker side
of the racing industry and thriller you know, talk, talk, talk us through the
process, conception, reasons, publishing, how, how you found Figure that why did you
publish the way you published and so on
Victor Bahna: I was sitting on a beach one day and It was chatting with my wife
And I was thinking about ways in which I can, what, what would be like the next
kind of big project I would want to do.
And it just was one of those lightbulb moments where we were just
kind of batting around a few ideas.
And, and I've been doing a fair amount of business writing at the time.
And thought to myself, you know what, I think maybe I should write a book.
And it was literally just this lightbulb moment where, I had not honestly really
considered or thought about it, you know, up to that point, it was, it
was literally just kind of hit me.
And I was thinking, okay, well, if I write a book, what would it be about?
Well, of course, it would have to be about horses because that's
where I'm spending, you know, quite a bit of my time and energy.
And so that, that really was the, the starting point.
But what I, what it was, was bothering me.
At that time, and this was probably 2016, maybe 2017, but what was really
bugging me at that time was the, you mentioned the darker side, the excitement
in the racing and the attention is all given to the horses that are racing.
But there's a lot of horses that don't race anymore.
And back then there were a lot of those horses that were, were being
shuttled you know, in crowded vans up to from the U S at least up to Mexico
or down to Mexico or up to Canada.
And they were going to the slaughterhouse.
And I, and it really bothered me that, you know, you can have, and I read the story
of Ferdinand, I'm not sure how familiar you are with Ferdinand, but he was a
Kentucky Derby winner back in the 80s.
I'm not
Rupert Isaacson: familiar.
No, tell us.
Victor Bahna: Yeah.
Yeah.
Ferdinand won the Kentucky Derby back in the 1980s.
I don't know exactly which year it was.
And he was sold as a stallion to a group in Japan.
Yeah.
This for us.
One of the most prestigious race in the US he was very well regarded,
you know, would, would have a very, you'd expect a very prosperous
and, and successful stud career.
Highest bidder was in Japan at the time, he ended up going
to Stallion Farm in Japan.
After he retired from racing.
Apparently his prodigy was not very successful in, in, in large part.
And he got sold to another farm in Japan.
He ended up passing through a couple of different places.
Ended up, actually he ended up in a slaughterhouse, actually.
And was, was, you know.
That was his end and after I don't know how old he was.
I don't think he was that old probably somewhere between maybe he
was like 12 or 15 or something Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: not old.
Yeah midlife.
No,
Victor Bahna: no, definitely not old.
And it was basically he was unsuccessful He passed through,
you know multiple hands.
And the last Group that got them decided that it was going to be best to, you
know, send them to a slaughterhouse because they can get money for the
pound for him, which is just amazing.
So I thought to myself, you know, how does a horse like that, who wins
the most prestigious race in the U.
S.
end up in a slaughterhouse and how can any horse that you may spend.
You know, a couple hundred thousand dollars on or even more at some
point in their career, you know, find themselves on a trailer heading
to heading to a slaughterhouse and that really, really disturbed me.
So, I thought to myself that would actually be a good story to, to write
about and maybe expose a little bit more of what's going on, but doing
it in a way that's not preaching.
That's not trying to shame anybody, but more just.
In the, in the, in the form of a narration and of a, of an interesting
story I don't think people read novels to be scolded or to be
Victor Bahna (2): you know,
Victor Bahna: given a sermon, but I think, I think they're, they're
reading novels because they want to be entertained and they want
to they want to read a good story.
And so that that's what I ended up doing was, was, you know,
capturing that scenario with this horse whose name is Heliacal Star.
And sort of working through those progressions of him being a a
fancy yearling that gets sold for quite a bit of money at a, at an
auction has a, has a racing career.
But at some point that career ends and, you know, he finds himself in a.
In a in a van going, going in the wrong way.
And I don't want to give too much away of the story itself, but, but that,
that really became the arc of the story.
And then the, at first I was thinking I would write it from the horse's
point of view, but after after a couple of starts on that, realize that that
probably wasn't going to make much sense.
So developed a few characters and.
Was able to weave several subplots that I find are actually pretty
interesting from a, from a reader's point of view that cover different
areas of, of the racing business.
And when I was doing some, some research on writing itself, you know, the, the,
for one of the first lessons that that I picked up on was, You should write
what you know don't, don't, you know, start out with, you know, a topic that
you're familiar with and write what you know, and, and, and write the way
you want to tell the story, you know, don't necessarily let other people
or or styles, you know, necessarily change or alter what you want to say.
And so that's what I, that's what I ended up doing.
I probably took the really long road to doing this.
Having not having any experience in publishing or writing a novel and
I say the long road because I would write the first version of this and
I would get to the, I finally got to the very ending of the story and I
thought to myself, okay, this is great.
You know, this looks good.
This is the, you know, it's going to be the right length
and I'd start rereading it.
And I was thinking to myself, this is awful.
This is terrible.
And so I ended up going through multiple.
Multiple iterations and started adding more depth with each iteration made,
made things, you know, a lot more interesting from a reader perspective,
you know, cut out things that just weren't moving the story forward added
things that could move the story forward and after six years of doing this.
They ended up finally getting to the point where I thought it had a readable version
of the book and it actually all tied together and and that's when I started
to, you know, solicit some feedback from from a couple of folks close folks that I
know that I, I know are readers and, and then after they gave me their feedback and
I made another rewrite of the book then I, then I started to shop for editors.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us quickly the plot and Then I want you to talk about the
editing process because I think a lot of people when they want to write a book
they don't realize that the success of the book is really predicated upon the
editor or editors and that this has to be a sort of creative and happy marriage
Between author and editors, but without a good editor, there is no book and
without the good editor, there is no film.
It's, it's, it's, call it killing babies but it's, it's a difficult process.
So what's the plot of the book and how did the editors, how did you find the editors?
How did the editors help you craft the book to its readable form?
What it costs you to find, to, to employ those editors?
And then how did you move it through to publishing?
Mm-Hmm,
. Victor Bahna: So about the book itself, it's the namesake iCal star.
He is a, a race horse.
Why
Rupert Isaacson: iCal, by the way?
Victor Bahna: I actually had a horse that was called iCal Rising.
Okay.
That I raced in in Maryland.
And I, I thought the name was unique enough where it was gonna catch your eye.
It's, it's not boring in terms of, and it, and it's something that most people
don't necessarily know and therefore.
I thought it would be a just something that would, would catch someone's eye.
Rupert Isaacson: It means relating to or near to the sun, right?
Heliacal.
Yeah, it has to be the, yeah,
Victor Bahna: the star Sirius and it, it being the first time it rises
before the solstice, I believe.
And I, and I knew that because of Palaeocal Rising, which
was, which was effectively, you know, named after that event.
And it actually goes back to to ancient Egypt.
And so, yeah, I just, I just kind of liked the name and thought it was catchy
and and just slightly altered it for the book because I didn't Want to use a name
that had already been used in racing.
So I also checked to see if anyone actually named a horse, a
lyrical star with the jockey club.
And there were none, none out there.
So I was like, okay, I can, I can go with this book.
No one's gonna.
Chase me down for copyright infringes or anything like that.
So yeah, he's a racehorse.
And our main character Who is a former bookie?
with organized crime He ends up taking a liking to this horse after
he places a hunch bet on with him in a race at at Belmont Park one day.
And so he gains this affinity for, for this racehorse because of the
results of, of that particular race in which in which he made a wager.
And so he's also someone that's been at the racetrack, you know, throughout his,
his childhood and was brought there by his by his dad who has since been Deceased
and he's feeling nostalgic one day.
He goes to the racetrack and and kind of relives.
I think it's on his dad's birthday.
He relives sort of the experience that he had when he was younger.
When he would go to the racetrack with his, with his dad, he gets on
a, a tram ride that takes you through the backstretch of Belmont Park.
And then when he's on the tram ride, he hears a call out to this horse,
Heliacal Star, who happens to be in a, in a barn that they're passing.
And on a whim, he decides that he's going to go take a look at this
horse and say hello to him up close.
And it's just one of those sort of unexplainable, hey, I just
want to do this kind of thing.
And as he approaches the shed row where the horse is, he stops just
short of the shed row because he hears a conversation that's taking place.
And it's a conversation that involves this particular racehorse.
And he recognizes one of the voices.
It actually paralyzes him because he recognizes his voice as one of his
cohorts from his organized crime days.
His, his relationship with the organized crime family ended very badly for him.
And this is the last group of people he ever wants to deal with
or, or interact with ever again.
But the conversation is so disturbing to him that He now faces a bit of a moral
dilemma in that does he actually say something and report what he's hearing
to the authorities, which will likely be something that they find out about,
and he would have to, he would have to confront his past which is something
that he feels he's, he's moved past, you know, long ago, or does he just pretend
that he never heard anything kind of go on with his, with his life as it is?
And of course.
He decides, you know, to do the right thing, you know, from a moral perspective,
and the story, you know, picks up from there in terms of the the danger that
he ends up winding himself or putting himself in as a result of of facing
these, these mobsters once again.
He does meet a trainer in, in the process.
Somewhat happens chance running into this trainer and she and he develop a
relationship as well, and she teaches him quite a bit about what happens
on the backside of the racetrack.
Cause he, he had always been in on the handicapping gambler, spectator side of
things, and she kind of brings in a little bit inside the, the, the world of racing
from a, from an insider perspective.
So they, they end up.
Bonding over you know, they, they both love horses, but they come at it
from a slightly different perspective.
And they form a relationship in the process as well.
And then you get to see what happens to this racehorse.
It's, you know, political star himself as he kind of goes through
this progressions, as I mentioned.
In his career,
Rupert Isaacson: we don't want to give away the, plot too much, but it's a
thriller, but the obvious question here is how much is organized crime involved.
Interesting.
Victor Bahna: Honestly, I don't know the answer to that question.
I don't think it's as much as it used to be, but I wouldn't
say it's, it's 0 percent either.
It's, it's it's, it's hard to tell.
I think, I think with the.
With the internet these days there's more access to gambling.
It's, it's interesting in the U S when I was, when I was younger
gambling was quite the taboo.
As the government started to figure out that they could earn a lot of money
through things like lotteries and stuff like that, it became a little bit more.
Acceptable.
And nowadays, it's everywhere, it's, it's, it's, it's amazing in just, you know, in
a matter of a couple of decades, it went from being this, this horrible addiction,
and it's, and it could be a terrible addiction, a lot of people do suffer
from, from, from gambling addiction, to a very accepted vice, let's call it,
you know, with gambling on everything, you know, any sporting event in the U.
S.
is going to have it.
gambling and easy access to it as well, you know, through the internet
or, you know, casinos are everywhere.
I, I think that fixing of games and fixing of, of races to say that it doesn't
exist at all would probably be naive.
But I, I, I honestly couldn't, couldn't give you an answer because I, I, well,
Rupert Isaacson: it's an interesting thing because in the UK growing up So
full disclosure, you know, thoroughbred industry was all around me growing up.
And I'll go into that in a moment.
But in the UK, of course, Betting is not a taboo.
It's an accepted thing.
There's betting shops, you know, on every high street, you
know, several chains of them.
And it's considered kind of almost like a fun family activity.
You put a, you know, we call it having a flutter.
And everyone puts something on the Grand National.
Everyone puts something on the FA Cup final in football.
Everyone will put something on.
Is it going to be a white Christmas this year?
You know, they'll, they'll, you know, Different shops will put on different
odds and it's all very above the board and controlled by the government and taxed.
And as you know, in in the racing industry, we have something called the
tote, which is basically, you know, a government controlled betting thing
where their rationale is a little bit like prostitution in Amsterdam.
So look, it's going to go on.
So we might as well control it.
And, you know, Benefit from it and build roads out of it, which is, you
know, relatively enlightened, but the there's also, as we know, there's,
there's a lot of unofficial betting and that unofficial betting tends to have
its connections to the organized crime.
And it was interesting to me growing up because, I don't know
if you're aware of this in the UK.
You probably are because it exists on the east coast of the US as well.
We have what are called hunt racers, which are all point to points,
which are amateur racers, but they usually run on race tracks.
And they look to the outside eyes, just like a regular racer,
jump racers, steeplechasers.
But they're run by hunts, packs of hounds as fundraising days, and they
can raise a lot of money this way.
And so there's a whole industry of sort of whole amateur industry, but it's
basically professionalized a lot of money changes hands, but not as much
as, you know, the, the top industry.
And of course a lot of, there's a lot of home breeding for these point
to point race horses, which are thoroughbreds, but also horses that
have sort of trickled down through.
Maybe not done Fantastically on the professional track might do very
well on the point to point track.
So Some horses from the racetrack find themselves a actually sort of second
career point to pointing others are bred for it Definitely there was a kind of a
rural mafia around this growing up and there were people you just didn't cross,
you know, that there were people that were around and it was like in the village
pubs and it's not, you know, people think about organized crime as you know, this.
Urban thing and it's chaps in cheap Italian suits wasting each other, you
know and it wasn't like that at all, but it was violent and You were aware that
there was this edge and places you did not go but of course people would lay
money with these people because as you said people who were either gambling
addicts or Looking to make a faster buck or maybe these bookies would give
them longer odds, you know um Chance for making more money Interestingly, I know
one who went on actually to become quite a philanthropist later on in his life.
But it, it, and a lot of these, these unofficial bookies were kind of math
geniuses, oddly enough, who, but they could get financed, they could get
backing from sort of local mafia people.
It was it was what it was so but I think that that Side of things the racing is
quite familiar with people because any anywhere there's gambling anywhere with
money You're going to see this what of course is tragic is that you know, the
horses are innocents in this and they have no Yeah, so if someone's going to
break the leg of a horse for insurance reasons or something like that, that's
yeah Yeah, and I think as you say that used to go on more than it perhaps
does now But it was a thing growing up
Victor Bahna: I agree.
Yeah, I do think there was, there was, it was much more prevalent and maybe a
little bit more obvious or less subtle back you know, back in the seventies or
the eighties, I think that I think you're right whenever you've got money involved,
whenever you have gambling involved, whenever you've got high stakes involved
there's the propensity for cheating and and you know, you could call it fixing.
You can call it.
The way in which you cheat then is, is.
Okay, you can, and there are various ways, I think, in which you can,
you can alter maybe the outcome of a race you might not be able to make it
exact, but you can, you can pay off the participants, like you can pay off the
referees in a, in a in a sporting event, not to make certain calls or to make
certain calls, you can, you can pay off.
You know, a rider to to race harder, not to race hard.
Usually it's easier to get them not to race harder than it is to
race hard because, you know, it's easier to lose than it is to win.
And so if you can find a race with, let's say, 8 horses and you've got.
You know, seven of the riders all running to lose that you're going to figure out
who's gonna who's going to win that race.
So that, that could be one way of doing it.
You know, another way would be to get into medications and again, back in the,
Victor Bahna (2): you know,
Victor Bahna: 70s or 80s, maybe the scrutiny and the number of
drug tests that were being done are, are, you know, miniscule
compared to what we're doing today.
I mean, they're a lot more thorough in terms of the urine test and making
sure, you know, we're checking all of their, their blood samples and so
forth after a raise, but there are still, there are still loopholes.
And if somebody wants to, you know, really bend the rules, you know, they
could probably do something that goes You know, that goes under the under
the radar, so to speak, again, I don't think it's done nearly as much as it
would have been in the past because you have a lot more activism today.
You have a lot more awareness of some of these things.
There's a lot more testing.
There's more regulations, but I, again, I would say it's naive to think that, you
know, there aren't some out there that are trying to bend or break the rules to
you know, make things work in their favor.
My, my experience with People on the backstretch has been I would
just call overwhelmingly positive.
And I think, I think there's some self policing that's being done.
I also think there's a little bit of the, we don't want to rat on our friends.
Kind of mentality as well that happens.
But I think the overwhelming number of people are honest on the backstretch.
I think they do deeply care about the racehorses.
It is the minority and the few bad actors that tend to give the
industry at, at large, sort of a bad.
Reputation at times.
And I think it's important if we can keep a level playing field for, for all of
the participants, you know, if you feel like you're up against a person that is
suspicious or has been under, you know, under suspicion and their horse tends
to run a lot better than you think it should, you know, you're going to start
asking yourself the question, you know, is the, is the playing field really
level or, you know, do I have to might be bending or cheating on the rules.
So it's, it's a, it's a hard, it's a hard one though, because you just,
You just don't know and you just hope that people are, for the most part,
going to, going to do the right thing.
I know the people that I associate with.
I see every vet bill.
I get, I go down to the backstretch.
I watch them train.
I speak regularly with with, with the people that I entrust with my horses.
And and I'm, I'm very confident that they are They're doing the right thing.
If there's an issue with the horse, they'll immediately call me and, and
we'll back off, we're not gonna, we're not gonna push, we're not gonna, we're
not going to do things that are unnatural.
And you know, if, if a horse can't compete, we're going to try to find
a level where they can compete as opposed to, Hey, let's jack up the
source on, you know, some medication that will make him, You know, a
better resource than he should be.
So, but again, a lot of it depends on who you're working with.
A lot of it depends upon, you know, what, what kind of exposure you're having.
And you got to keep your eyes open, in my opinion, and associate
yourself with the good people.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I mean, so that's one side of it for sure.
The other, of course, difficult side, and this is a side, again, that's well
known to me is, as you say, what happens to the horses after their careers, but.
So, it's a use them up, spit them out thing, meaning that, you know, millions
and millions of racehorses get bred every year over the, across the world.
And, obviously, there's always more losers than winners.
So, horses that, you know, are sold for a lot of money as yearlings or
two year olds, as you say, often, you know, by the age of five, are done.
And, They've got 25 years of life ahead of them, and they might come
out of that two years or five years that they're running with injuries
almost, almost inevitably they will.
Partly because they're too young to actually bear weight when
they're, and, and to bear impact.
Hard impact anyway.
You know, in the riding horse world, not the racehorse world, you never
start a horse before three or four.
And you work them very, very gently, and you build the muscles, and
you build the top line muscles.
I mean, ideally you should, there are people who don't,
but let's say that's the ideal.
And in the racing industry, you know, they're racing at 18 months to two
years old and, you know, sustaining lifetime, you know, impact injuries,
which are then going to affect them.
Now, all of that said, the thoroughbred is very tough, very resilient animal
coming out of, you know, the desert steps coming out of Central Asia.
So, and they love to run but there's no question they do it too early.
And there's no question that the bones and the cartilage are impacted in ways that
sometimes render the horses unrideable.
And then, of course, the other problem is that if you take an
adrenaline fueled animal that
works off its amygdala, its fight flight freeze response, and you jack that up to
the point where it's just always going to run, so its first response is to run,
then that makes it a very difficult animal to put with the average rider because
it's too fiery, it's too dangerous.
Now, all of that said, Where I grew up in Leicestershire in the UK, all we did was
take thoroughbreds off the track and rehab them into various types of sport horse.
So we would turn them into fox hunting horses, we would turn them into
showjumpers, we would turn them into eventers, and we would we would go
up to it's what we did if what people did when they didn't have much money
is you'd go to Doncaster sales or one of the big organized auctions that
happen at the end of the steeplechase, particularly the jump racing.
Yeah.
And you see what you could pick up cheap that looked like it might be sound and you
take a punt on it and you'd retrain them.
And for the most part, I'd say all of those horses went on to.
Good homes and good ends and the horses that I had and I kept were the ones we
couldn't sell because they were too nuts.
But I still made them work and hunted them and team chased them and invented
them and stuff and retired them and they died, you know, in their thirties.
But it's not always that good of an outcome.
However I now work very much in the therapeutic riding field.
And many people say that thoroughbreds are wrong for this.
And we've just, we've disproved that.
So we work primarily with autism.
We work primarily with mental health.
And.
One of our best programs is a a non profit called Square Peg Foundation in
Half Moon Bay, California, outside of San Francisco, which basically, more
or less exclusively takes thoroughbreds off the track from the Thoroughbred
Aftercare Alliance, and has turned them into absolutely fantastic therapy horses
now has two campuses in California.
And we have a couple of programs in Ireland, too.
One in Kilkloon in just outside Dublin, near the Coolmore
Stud, which is a famous stud.
And another down in a place called the Skinnet in County Limerick.
And again, we've managed to rehab, retrain many horses off the track for this job.
And they, their sensitivity is
very well matched.
We find actually with the acute sensitivity, the sensory sensitivity
of people on the spectrum.
And now we've moved into working.
Very much with adults with trauma with the U.
S.
Air Force, with the Bundeswehr, which is the German Army I live in Germany now,
and the Dutch Defense Force, and so on.
Again, we find thoroughbreds are very, very good at this work, but
what is lacking at this point?
It seems, is any really
coherently, let's say, credible effort from the racing industry as
a whole to really back the work that all the pioneers are doing privately
to mop up the dregs of the industry?
Dirty work and the mess and the waste of the industry itself.
We also have a great place in Japan, by the way.
Just outside Tokyo, which again uses mostly horses
called it's called Equitopia.
It's worth looking up and the, the husband of the vet who runs it is actually
a very prominent trainer in Japan.
So that's Square peg foundation in California Stewart's care
and in outside Dublin and St.
Joseph's Foundation in Charleville County Court, but their farm is actually over
the border in Limerick, and Equitopia in Japan, all using thoroughbreds.
I know there's more out there, these are just the ones that
we happen to be involved with.
But what we see is that, although I think organizations Aftercare
Alliance get behind them and give grants to these organizations, the
thoroughbred industry, with all its money And it has a lot of money.
Does not.
So I'm calling bullshit on the desire from the industry to really do the right thing.
Because I think we'd see a slightly different picture if that were true.
I think they do rely upon good hearted individuals and non profits
to come in and pick up the pieces.
But really, the Jockey Club has so much money.
It could be seen to look after the animals that it purports
to be so passionate about.
Much, much more from sort of birth to death.
Yet it does not.
Why doesn't it?
How might it?
And how can we be a force for change with that?
Victor Bahna: Yeah.
See, you, you covered a lot of ground and it's important stuff.
So I'll give you my, my perspective on, on this because I think to
a large extent, my, my thought process is not very different than,
than what you just referenced.
It's.
As I mentioned earlier, it was, it was
Rupert Isaacson: just, don't get me wrong.
I'm not anti racing and I know that the horses, I'm not, yeah,
Victor Bahna: I'm very much in,
Rupert Isaacson: we just need to look after the animals,
Victor Bahna: but, but, but one of my inspirations for writing this book was
to bring more attention to the, the very topic that you just referenced.
And I will say that the racing industry, in my opinion, this is my opinion.
Has a hard time getting out of its own way.
Sometimes.
I mean, there's a, there's a new law that was passed or regulatory
body that was formed in the U.
S., you know, called the Horse Racing Integrity and Safety Act.
And the entire reason for having the government get involved in
regulating the horse business or the racing business very specifically
is because the racing business couldn't figure this out on their own.
It's like, guys, wake up and look, look, what's going on around you.
And quite frankly, the racing business is.
It's competing with other sports in the U.
S.
and it's losing that fight because, you know, people are watching
and gambling on football, U.
S.
football.
They're, they're going to the casinos that are everywhere now.
It's hard.
for a handicapper to predict who's going to win a horse race.
It's, it's hard to understand all of the different exotic
wagers that you have to make.
Exact the boxes and triples and super effectors and daily doubles
and pick threes and so forth.
It's, you gotta kind of know that stuff.
You're not just going to walk in and You know, be able to just pick
them out of a hat necessarily.
But if you're a football fan or a baseball fan or a hockey fan, and you're
following different teams, making a bet on a, on a, on a game is very easy to do.
You don't have to put a lot of thinking or thought into it.
You just do it more intuitively.
So that competition is there.
And I'm bringing this up because it's just.
The horse business itself, the racing business itself has got to
figure out how they're going to stay competitive in the marketplace.
And one of the areas that they can do a lot of good for themselves.
Would be to be much more active in promoting the aftercare of these
horses and being much more active in Showing that hey, we're not just
about the race itself We're about the whole life cycle of the racehorse.
And yes, you've got a hot blood.
You've you've got a a very high strung animal who is going to be very flighty
but the stories that you're referencing and this the work that you're doing You
And being able to get that much more publicized and saying, Hey, you know what,
you might see a, a, a very athletic high strung, fast athlete on the racetrack,
but that same athlete is going to be very kind and very gentle once they're
retrained and they're going to have such a value to the community after, you know,
after they're done with their careers.
And we have to get that word out a lot more.
And, and yes, you know, grassroots and private organizations
are certainly helping.
And social media is certainly helping.
And we are seeing a trickle, I'll call it, from, from the racing business.
Like we're donating certain, a few dollars, you know, per start
to aftercare foundations that are sponsored by the various racetracks.
And they're doing a little bit more marketing and promotion about some of the
some of the aftercare that they're doing it's a start, but we've got to do a lot
more in the space and the and just think of the exposure that the business would
get if they could demonstrate that, yeah, once the horses are over, they're being
taken care of because we're making sure that you know, that the owners that we're
holding the owners responsible for what happens to those horses and, and, and
to an extent they are if, you know, If a horse, you know, if there's a tattoo,
which has now been replaced with digital chips, you know, if that horse ends
up in an agricultural auction and goes into a, a kill pen with, you know, being
purchased by a kill buyer, and that gets discovered, the owner of record, the last
owner of record with that horse and the last trainer of record of that horse has
to have to pay a pretty hefty fine and they get called out by the jockey club.
I think it's the jockey club.
, so there is some accountability, but I think that the racing business can do
a lot more in terms of just promoting the opportunities and creating more
awareness and, and being more active and supporting that because you're right.
There's a ton of money.
If you ever go to a Keeneland auction.
I have worked at the Keeneland auctions.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
In one of my first jobs under the table illegally in the USA training
horses, I've shown thoroughbreds in the auctioneers ring at Keeneland.
And it's interesting.
I mean, it's a hard business run by hard people.
There's not much humanity in the treatment of the people,
in the treatment of the horses.
It, I mean, The horses are well looked after to the degree that they're
well fed and cleaned and cared for.
But
Victor Bahna: I bet the horses are probably better cared for than the people.
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: indeed, indeed.
And for all we English and Irish boys that were there under the
table taking the hard knocks.
You know, for any one of us, there were 10 Mexicans who were,
you know, taking it harder.
So It was exploitative at the same time it provided us with many opportunities
and for me as a, as a, you sort of accepted that exploitation to some
degree and said, Okay, well, look, you know, I'm, I'm living on my wits
here in the USA without a work permit.
I could go home, you know, but here's an opportunity.
So I will take it.
I've got some horse knowledge, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
And then you get, you know, pretty heftily shoved around in a rather inhuman way.
But at the same time, you kind of, you accepted the adventure.
You were a young man, you know, you could.
Sort of handle it, but you weren't going to stay there forever.
But nonetheless, I think it was sort of indicative of the industry as a whole.
That there was a,
almost a sort of desire power play in that way, not confined to that industry.
Of course, you find it in many things, but nonetheless, very, very prevalent there.
So I think that, again, that's why I questioned the sincerity.
of the Jockey Club or the rest of it.
Victor Bahna: I think it almost doesn't matter anymore.
I think it's going to become existential for this business to recognize the
necessity for them to be more active in the aftercare of Thoroughbreds.
And I think they're starting to get it.
But I, I think there are two major inhibitors that are hard to ignore.
The first one is the one I mentioned before is that the racing business seems
to not be able to get out of its own way.
They can't, it seems like you can't make a decision without,
they just can't make decisions.
And you would think that, that this horse racing and safety act integrity
and safety act would have woken them up to the fact that Hey, maybe we
should get our act together and, you know, make the need for government
regulation obsolete because we can demonstrate that we're doing it ourselves.
But what are they doing instead?
They're fighting the, they're fighting the the, the regulatory
effort that's going on.
Yeah.
They're trying to say it's illegal and you can't do this.
And so instead of, you know, understanding the whole reason behind it, you
know, they're, they're arguing it.
And, you know, I, I can, I can see a lot of flaws in how it's being run
and managed, but that's not the point.
Point is you can get your shit together and now you're, you're,
you're where you are because you created this mess yourself.
So I think that's the first problem is, and I don't know where that's going.
I really don't.
That was
Rupert Isaacson: my question.
Is racing going to survive?
Victor Bahna: I don't know.
I think, I think it will survive.
But I think it's going to have to change, I think.
Rupert Isaacson: Will it shrink?
What will it look like?
It will shrink,
Victor Bahna: yeah.
I think it will shrink.
I think, I think you're seeing, I think California right now is is struggling.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Victor Bahna: And it's one of the bigger racing venues in the US.
Part of it is geographic because you're so far away from where
all the other racetracks are.
And as you know, you know, shipping a horse from east coast to west
coast or vice versa is not,
Is, is a an expensive venture.
So, you're kind of on an island to some extent when you're, when you're out west.
But part of it is just that the competition in the handle is, is reducing.
And a lot of the players that were big horse fans, racing fans, People that
would go to the racetracks, quite frankly, are getting old and they're dying off
and the next generation is not coming up with the same enthusiasm for racing
that the previous generations have had.
So yeah, I do think there's some, I do think there's some awakening
that's going to happen and I think that the industry will eventually
figure it out, but it's going to probably take some time before they do.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you think it's going to go back to being what it was
originally, which is a sport of gentlemen?
And and gentle people.
What I mean by that is for those listeners that don't know the history
of the thoroughbred horse they go back to a handful of stallions that
were brought into England in the late 17th century by a handful of people
who acquired horses from the Central Asian step through the Ottoman Empire.
And to some degree from the Arabian world, also through the Ottoman
Empire because of the wars that were going on between the Ottoman Empire
and Central Europe at that time.
A good example would be the Bayali Turk, which was, you know,
a famous foundation stallion.
Who was acquired by a man called Biley, who was an Anglo Irish cavalry officer
who found himself at the siege of Vienna in 1680, where the Ottoman Empire
pushed into central Europe and was busy about to kind of swallow it all up.
The rest of Europe kind of went, Oh, shit, you know, we better temporarily
stop fighting each other and come together to push this common enemy out so we
can get back to fighting each other.
And at the siege of Vienna, this man, Bilye, who was part of an Anglo
Irish sort of adjunct semi mercenary regiment, cavalry regiment acquired
this horse from, from the Turks.
And legend doesn't really say whether it was bought, stolen, Spoil of
battle what but what was very clear was when barley got hold of it.
It was as fast as it was Maneuverable because of course a close order cavalry
horse was not actually designed for speed.
It was designed for agility and So this horse seemed to have both so he
brings this horse home to a Ireland, actually, County Meath and instead
of putting it at stud initially, he finds himself at the Battle of the
Boyne, which is what decides whether Britain will be Protestant or Catholic.
A big battle is fought there and he's, luckily for him, on the
winning side, on the Protestant side.
And at the end he does put the horse out to stud and it is one of the foundation
horses of the, of the thoroughbreds and of the race, of the thoroughbred itself.
And the reason I tell that story is because Where Thoroughbreds
began, it was just sort of coteries of private individuals who were
interested in this kind of thing.
And then who ran races on open areas of ground, like Newmarket, like
Lambourne, like places in Ireland.
And then, of course, as soon as the colonies in America began, in
Virginia, in New York, anywhere, you know, that had good pasture.
And exported that along with fox hunting and all the other British stuff.
And It's still there to this day, but it wasn't an industry.
It was collections of private individuals who were enthusiasts and working
with, you know, a handful by today's standards of horses, you know, a few
hundreds or a few thousand horses sort of sprinkled over a few countries.
And now of course it's grown into this bear mob.
And it is, is that the problem is that it's become a victim of itself.
And if it shrinks, is that maybe a good thing that it goes back to its roots
in a way and that people like you.
You know, unlikely techies with a passion for the thing, rather like Captain
Biley back in the day, say, well, look, you know, we just love this horse and
we sort of want to see what it can do.
And, and then might it be easier to do the aftercare because you just don't
have so many horses to, to deal with.
And actually, is that not a tragedy, but maybe kind of a
good thing at the end of the day?
Yeah.
Victor Bahna: I think I do think it will shrink.
I think we're seeing shrinkage already.
And even if you look at the breeding numbers for the last, Dozen or two dozen
years, you could see them coming down.
You know, year over year, they're, they're kind of stabilizing at this point, but,
but they're definitely about half, maybe what they were, you know, 20 years ago.
Already half.
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, that's, that's big from,
Victor Bahna: from maybe not quite half, but, but sizable decrease in the number
of thoroughbreds that are bred every year.
And I think it's just a reflection of the industry shrinking.
I don't, I think we're going to get back to, to the gentlemen's sort of sport that
it might have, might've been in the past.
And I think, but is
Rupert Isaacson: that not what you yourself are doing?
Are you not a gentleman getting together with other gentlemen?
It depends upon
Victor Bahna: who you talk to, I suppose.
But I would say that we are seeing interesting trends though.
The syndicate is one of those trends that started Cott Campbell, I believe started
that back in the 1980s, 90s here in the U.
S.
Now that's evolved into these very broad partnerships like myresource.
com, in which you can have hundreds of, Owners of a particular racehorse,
they put in a few hundred dollars and they get the emails and the updates and
they get, and I think that's one way to maybe attract some new interest and
ownership into the into the business, but I don't think, I don't think in general.
We're going to go back whether it's racing or whether it's any organized sport.
I mean, you could, you could look at any organized sport and say, it seemed
a lot more pure, perhaps back in less technical, perhaps, you know, back in the,
Victor Bahna (2): you know,
Victor Bahna: 50, 60 years ago, whether it's baseball or soccer,
football, what have you now, it's everything is just so technical.
I go to a hockey game here in Seattle and the entire game is
choreographed and I don't mean it from the play on the on the ice.
I mean, it from between the face offs.
I mean, in terms of the Yeah.
The script that, you know, you, you're constantly being bombarded
with with entertainment and sensory you know, activities.
And that never used to be the case.
I mean, you used to go to a, I used to go to a hockey game and watch a hockey game.
I didn't have to be entertained outside of the, the game itself.
But, you know, today we feel like we're force fed with all of this,
you know, entertainment, so to speak, if they want to call it that.
And to me, it's a little overload.
I think it's, you know, It's not necessary, but that's what they're doing.
They try to bring in and it's very scripted too.
I mean, it's like, it's almost like you can go to any arena in the U S and you're
almost going to get the same experience.
Just different colors on the, on the, on the, on the shirts.
And, you know, maybe
Victor Bahna (2): the
Victor Bahna: game itself might be a little bit different.
And I think racing is the same.
I think it's become.
You know, very programmatic in a way it's become very commoditized in that sense.
And I don't think you can go back.
I don't think you can go back to organic once you've been commoditized.
I think that's just you know, to use a cliche you know, once, you
know, you can't put the horse back in the barn on this one.
And so I think that's probably where we are with with the racing industry.
Now it can evolve, you know, And I think that's where it needs to is,
and especially in the aftercare, I think that's the biggest area for me
where we can do a lot more awareness.
I mentioned the industry itself having difficulty getting out of its own way,
and I think whether it's the jockey club or the various racing jurisdictions,
you know, having somebody really step up and show some leadership there
would be, would be a welcome change.
The other factor, though, I think that.
We're facing, and I'm sure you're facing this in Europe too is just the cost of
maintenance of a horse is, you know, and you're thinking about a horse that
retires at five or six that might live to the 30, you know, you've got 25
years of care and feeding of that horse.
It's expensive and the amount of land that's available is shrinking too.
You know, there's more development, there's more urbanization,
there's less there's less farmland and there's less expertise.
Where I live, finding a farrier is hard.
I have one and he's a good one.
I'm fortunate to have that, but you know, there's not like, you know,
a Rolodex of farriers that I can go through and say, well, you know,
if this one's not available, I have to, I can just schedule another one.
That's just an example of the sort of changing landscape that we're
seeing, you know, my farrier.
I, I, I, I'll, you know, just on that story alone, you know, I, I
hold my farrier appointments, like.
These are the most unmovable appointments that I've got on my calendar.
Rupert Isaacson: I've got this amazing farrier who's approaching retirement.
And it's like, I'm just in total denial about it because it's,
I can't imagine life beyond it.
Yeah.
And
Victor Bahna: I know that if I, if I missed that appointment
for whatever reason, it's like getting back on his calendar is
going to be like near impossible.
So it's like, I tell everybody by
Rupert Isaacson: your, by your girlfriend or your boyfriend, you have to do this.
Exactly.
It's like, no,
Victor Bahna: the farrier takes.
Complete priority over everything else.
So, but that's just an example.
But yeah, the cost is, the cost is high.
And, and I don't think that when a lot of owners, when they get involved
in racing, they, and I, and I was of this case too, you know, you think
about the racing, you think about the excitement, you think about the, you
know, you have this dream of going to the Kentucky Derby and being the guy that's.
holding the trophy one of these days and, and, you know, gaining all that
glory, but you don't necessarily think about, Hey, I'm going to retire this
horse one day, and I'm going to make sure he's on a farm and I'm going to
be paying board rate for, for this horse for, you know, 25 or 30 years.
It's not something you just generally start thinking about when you're making
that purchase decision, you know If you're in if you're in Keeneland, and you're
you're bidding Eighty ninety a hundred thousand dollars on the horse, you know,
you're not thinking hmm What am I gonna do with the source after they're done
racing you're thinking about which is
Rupert Isaacson: so interesting, isn't it?
Because everybody knows how long horses live, you know And so the
person who buys that horse really is only thinking it's saying well This
is a hundred thousand that I'm willing to spend and lose but the loss You
They're thinking it's just my financial loss.
Victor Bahna: That's right, they're thinking it's a financial loss
and it's a three or four year investment is what they're thinking.
Yeah, yeah.
Not a thirty year investment.
Rupert Isaacson: What happens to the horse the rest of the time.
But I'm glad that you're, you know, drawing attention to this.
And of course it's a, you know, it's a longer conversation.
And it's not something one can solve in one podcast, but I think it's a
Victor Bahna: hard conversation at that I mean, it's it's it's a hard reality
that we have to confront in my opinion
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and it'll be interesting to see where it goes.
I think you know, we're all involved in in this aftercare business but it's
interesting that it's Us as individuals and small organizations really
which brings me to actually another industry which has acquired a bit of
a dark side of life and that's tech.
So, you know, when, when the tech boom happened you know, it was the great thing
and it is, I mean, look here at you and I on zoom, we wouldn't be able to do this.
You wouldn't have been able to publish your book, you know,
without so, so easily at any rate.
It, so, you know, social media makes.
So much possible and it's been really the big thing that's come out of tech
except for AI and we know that Australia has just passed a law a groundbreaking
law banning I don't know how they're going to enforce it but banning the
use of social media for under 16s.
That's a pretty good litmus test of the damage that's being done.
I've got two younger kids now and it's very interesting to see how
the impacts of social media begin.
And to already now be thinking about how do I mitigate this?
How do I battle this unseen demon that is so much bigger than me yet with
which you cannot do without anymore?
And, Full disclosure, yeah, in certain cases, I will absolutely go ahead
and use some chat GPT here and there.
Like everybody else, it's like having a secretary that you don't
have to pay for, it's incredible.
And at the same time, we know that they're busy trying to replace the
human, and what we think of as AI is not what's coming, you know, and we have
no idea really of what's coming, but we know it's going to be as fraught with
the goods and the bads as everything else that humans have come up with.
You're in the middle of the tech industry and you've been in there since
it's earlies and you're still there.
You're sitting there in, in, in Washington State, in Seattle, you know,
people think of Silicon Valley, but Microsoft obviously and many other big
tech companies are up there in Seattle.
There's a bit of a parallel really between the the racing industry and the original
sort of origins of the thoroughbred and tech, because it began, you know, with
groups of nerds, you know, and I remember contemporaries of mine who were at
university who were, you know, 57 now, and they were the computer science, you know,
Geeks who then went on to rule the world.
They were the princes of tomorrow Many of them became that and then they offered us
Stuff beyond our wildest imaginations and we all took it, you know gladly and still
do Yet this small league of gentlemen developing this technology whether it's
the thoroughbred horse, you know, it Baboof became an industry rather quicker.
And now here we are.
You're still right there in it and where's this going for us?
And what's the aftercare for us?
The horses upon which the, the, the AI and the social media are
being ridden, you know, we are, we are the horses we're being ridden.
What, what, what, what's the, what's the prognosis from someone
who's in the middle of it?
And maybe is that your next novel?
Victor Bahna: I don't know if it's my next novel.
It's a, it's a very interesting subject and it's one we're all living
through as, as, as you referenced.
It's interesting the Australia thing.
I don't, I don't think you can regulate morality.
I think that's I think that's just the
Rupert Isaacson: fact that it's come to this, that a, that a
government is doing this is indicative of People going, oh shit.
On a, on a big , it's a,
Victor Bahna: Yeah, it's with, with every advance that we make, you know,
there's, there's always that sort of paradox of, of, of good and bad.
And, you know, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing.
And, you know, I think we experience that, you know, quite a bit.
And I think, I think it's just accelerated with with technology over the last.
30 years.
And the industry itself has, has transformed, I think, in,
in the time that I, from when I started to, to where I am now and
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, you were doing supply chain of floppy disks and
Victor Bahna: yeah, we were, we were basically
Rupert Isaacson: plastic packages.
I
Victor Bahna: remember being in a, in a in a warehouse and we were actually
physically shrink wrapping the boxes ourselves and putting in the disks.
And I think it was my, I think it was office 95 had.
48 or 64 floppy disks to, to do an upgrade.
Think about that today.
It's like, what?
And, and, you know, I, I might be, you know, from the last generation that,
that grew up in, in a pre internet sort of world and, you know, I tell my kids
and, you know, you know, I'm 59 myself and I tell my kids, I'm like I'm glad the
internet wasn't around when I was your age because I might not want you to see
what what might've happened back then.
Nor do I necessarily want to remember, but it's, it's transformed a lot.
And I don't know, I think, I think that within the industry itself, it's.
Similar like you mentioned to the business of racing and horses
in that it's very commoditized.
It's become all about the next earnings report.
It's all about how much revenue are we going to make?
It's about how much, how much control can we, can we impart to some extent
it's about clicks and eyeballs and our attention spans have been dramatically
reduced as a result of all of the information overload that we're seeing.
I mean, how many, how often are you just walking through your
neighborhood and you see people with their heads in their phones?
I mean, people aren't even, they're crossing the street
without even looking up sometimes.
And, and it's just like, we're, we're just like consumed by what, whatever that
next click is, or I don't know if it's, if it's the dopamine rush or if it's
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we're consumed by each other really, as we always have been.
But it's just, as you say.
On turbo fuel and accelerated and
Victor Bahna: And it's just getting it's going to get faster and faster.
And I think in a way I think this is where my thoroughbred is, has rescued
me in some ways, because he brings me back to something that's real,
something that I could touch and something that I can interact with.
And there's no, there's no phone.
I leave my phone in my truck when I go see him.
I don't even want to be disturbed.
You know, it's just it's just nature.
And it's back to something that just.
To me is just such a good counterbalance to being on the
machine all, all, all day long.
But it's a, it's a challenging space.
The the industry has grown up fast.
I mean, the valuation of tech companies today is, is.
Mind boggling actually.
You know, when you think of the market market cap, you think about the largest.
Companies in the world by market cap and, you know, a lot of them are the tech
ones, you know, Microsoft, Apple NVIDIA.
I mean, these are the companies that are leading the way from a, from a valuation
perspective and, and you got to think about, you know, the larger they get,
you know, the more they get to sort of control the narrative, so to speak.
But even that, I mean, I think it's out of, I don't think it's
any entity or person or thing.
I think it's kind of.
It's on its own to this extent, you know, this is another example.
I just don't think you put the horse back in the barn.
Rupert Isaacson: No, for sure.
It's just interesting.
It's interesting to speculate.
Where's it going to go?
I was listening to a An investment guru on a podcast, the diary of a CEO podcast.
And it's a, it's a good one.
And he was, he's a crypto guru can try and find his name.
If I get on my phone at my phone, which is of course sitting right by next
to my hand while I'm talking to you.
And He was saying, if you're going to invest in the next
little while, you either invest in crypto and tech, or it's opposite.
And this was really interesting.
He said, or you invest in nature.
And he pointed out that the more people become tech focused, the
more the nature need becomes acute.
Because nature can mean many things, but it's also a human,
human interaction, right?
So if you were going into the office in the old days, even if the office
was shit and your boss was shit and it was a shit environment, it was a group
of people and you were interacting with a group of people and you were on
the subway going there and there were groups of people there and again, it was
divorced from nature with a capital N, but the interactions were still there.
And of course that's not gone away completely, but it's on its way out.
And You think, well then with home office or being able to work
remote and that sort of thing.
Well, great, great.
I'm now free.
I'm free to do what?
Sit in front of a screen for 14 hours and not interact with anybody.
But nature is right outside my door.
So, do I go and seek those experiences for my mental health or not?
And, so his point was this is going to become more and more acute.
There you are, within the tech industry, going and seeking for your mental
health, which has Basically what this horse is giving you nature through
four legs and this sentient being who is Extremely sensitive and is
showing you all sorts of wonderful life lessons like the escalation and so but
also just love just the relationship
Victor Bahna: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: and the passion and so on and the beauty
Is that where the nexus of what you're doing?
With tech and the racehorses and the aftercare can come together.
Do we need to go and rescue?
Burned out techies With sensitive horses, but but seriously, I mean Nature
coming to the aid of what else could
Victor Bahna: I think there is an option to
Rupert Isaacson: cure us, but nature for this.
Yeah,
Victor Bahna: I think that it's interesting the reference that you
gave because I agree with that is I think statistically we're seeing we're
seeing higher level of medications, whether it's, you know, depression,
anxiety or other we're seeing a higher number of a higher necessity and, and
maybe it's not necessarily a higher necessity, but more recognition for the
need for, for therapy in, in general.
And I think that.
We could look at the horses as a, a very rich and powerful source of that
kind of, that kind of relief or therapy whether it's helping with with anxiety
or depression or you know, providing some kind of therapy and it's not
necessarily a silver bullet that's going to solve all problems, but,
Victor Bahna (2): you know,
Victor Bahna: I do think that there's something to be said for getting back to
that and you know, burned out employees is not the tech industry works people hard.
I mean, it's, it's, it's not for the faint of heart.
It's become more and more competitive in the, in the years
that I've been involved in it.
It's become more specialized.
The, the, the entry bars to get in are, are raised.
So the point where the competition is, is significant and it's global.
You know, when I started it was mostly within the U.
S., but it's, it's entirely global now.
You're going to find an engineering organization that's, that's going to be
you know, very diverse in, in that sense.
And it's, it's only.
Increasing, I think the, or accelerating, you know, the progress of the industry
itself, but it's also, you know, you're seeing a couple of dominant players
come out of this and, and, you know, they're probably going to be the ones
that dictate the future and is clearly one of the it's, in my opinion, it's
just, it's just the next thing that the next revolution that we're going to see.
And I don't know where it's going.
I'm a little scared of it, but I also know that I've got a, I've got
a horse I can run to if I need to.
And You know, he'll he's not going to worry about about AI or you know, or
the internet or anything like that.
So, yeah, it's, it's, it's hard to predict though, and we are living through
it, but I, I would, I would say, you know, if we can, if we can exploit the.
Value that we gain from these from these horses and we could do that in
a in a constructive and positive way and provide an outlet to folks that
are have their head in their phone, you know, when every waking hour that
to me would be something that we can, we can definitely I could, I could
definitely see some opportunity there.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's a lot of ground covered.
Victor Bahna: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: A rich and interesting life.
I would say self actualized what's next for you.
What are you, what are you going to do now?
You're obviously producing thoroughbreds.
I presume you're going to keep writing books and keep working in tech, but what's
yeah, what's, what's your next thing?
Victor Bahna: I would like to continue to learn more about this aftercare space.
Yeah.
I think if I'm going to throw myself into something that would probably
be a, a pretty Good place to do that.
Don't know how much longer I've got in tech in regards to, you know, career path.
I'm kind of near the, I'm on the the back nine or maybe the back
one of my, of my tech career.
And that, that should free me up to do, maybe do a few more things.
I, I definitely think, you know, involving horses and, and, you know,
promoting, you know, some of the things that they do getting more involved,
I think would be something I would.
I would look to look to pursue if there's another story in there.
There's another good narrative that I can I can create.
Yeah, I think I would, I would definitely go down that path as well.
But I think there's a little bit of time for self reflection to
that will have to take place.
And, you know, I don't necessarily just want to go 100 miles an hour
from from 1 thing to another.
So, I don't think a lot of time for self reflection, but just
enough to make sure that the next.
The next big project is, is going to be a fulfilling 1 you
know, for, for what it's just
Rupert Isaacson: interesting, isn't it?
How this conversation starts with a boy who isn't experiencing much
nature, who finds an expression of it
through the horse through racing.
And that, because that's also what was available in terms of the horse, but
also the thrill of, of the betting, which to some degree takes the
place of the sort of hunter gatherer thrill, you know, that's innate in us.
And then you take this long segue through the tech industry and where do you
come back to nature through this book?
And I do think that's such a metaphor for, you know, All of us, really.
You know, when we're facing a shit, what is going to happen in this future?
What is happening with AI?
I think the more, the only thing that comes to mind is going to the
bush, get on a horse and go into the bush, you know, sure, we might have
a drone up top, you know, looking out for some things, you know, but yeah
Victor Bahna: Well, that's good because if you get thrown from the horse, the drone
will pick it up and they'll be able to call a vet for you or the or the doctor.
So you can actually come and physically
Rupert Isaacson: lift you.
And yeah, there you go.
And I would love to connect you with the people that I know who are
working in these various countries with thoroughbred aftercare.
I think you guys are natural partners and I'm very happy to work with you.
That'd be awesome.
Victor Bahna: I would love to get more connected in that space.
Rupert Isaacson: But listen, thanks, it's been a great conversation.
Tell us again the name of your book, where they can find it, and if people
want to find out more about what you're doing with thoroughbreds.
Give us the link.
Yeah,
Victor Bahna: so the name of the book is Haliacal Star.
And that's H E L I A C A L star.
And you can find it on Amazon or any of your online booksellers.
Rupert Isaacson: It's a five star reviewed book, by the way, everybody.
It's worth a read.
Yeah.
Victor Bahna: Thank you for that.
And you can also go to my website, which is my first name, last name, victorbana.
com.
B A H N A.
Yeah.
B A H N A, correct.
Yeah.
And you will find information about the book and you'll, you'll
see you know, some of the things that are, that are happening.
And you also have an email for me on that contact on that on that website as well.
So, you know, feel free to contact me as well.
Very good.
But I, I would really appreciate the, the introduction to some
of these rescue operations.
It's definitely an area of high interest for me and I, I do see myself getting
more involved in this as as I continue to to, to move forward in my own life cycle.
Rupert Isaacson: And I'll throw that one out there to the listeners
too, if any of you are interested in getting involved in this aftercare of
thoroughbreds thing, it's, it's worth it.
And these are animals that have a lot to give and absolutely help people.
I was just, just doing a training in Scotland with a group called
Horseback UK, who use a lot of off the track thoroughbreds with ex
special forces guys who've come back.
Missing large parts of themselves and at risk youth and many other
vulnerable populations and the horses are just doing an incredible job.
So, yeah, yeah, as as the world gets techier, we get horse here.
Yeah,
Victor Bahna: exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: All right, my friend.
Well, I look forward to more conversations.
Thank you so much for coming on.
Victor Bahna: Yeah, thank you again for, for having me.
I really appreciate it.
I enjoyed the conversation and and looking forward to to more in the future.
Rupert Isaacson: Till next time.
Thank you for joining us.
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