WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:04.040 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:09.680 have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they 00:00:09.680 --> 00:00:13.888 got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. 00:00:14.032 --> 00:00:18.839 How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, 00:00:19.169 --> 00:00:21.689 and most importantly, find joy. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.259 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:24.373 --> 00:00:27.463 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:27.468 --> 00:00:31.456 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:31.456 --> 00:00:37.074 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:37.364 --> 00:00:41.714 Welcome back to Live Free, Ride Free, where we talk to people who are living 00:00:41.714 --> 00:00:45.244 self actualized lives and finding out what we can learn from them. 00:00:45.454 --> 00:00:47.574 And how we can self actualize more. 00:00:47.954 --> 00:00:50.754 So today I've got a rather interesting man. 00:00:50.754 --> 00:00:55.169 I've got Victor Barna, who is both a techie he's up there in 00:00:55.169 --> 00:00:57.799 Seattle, teching away, and we're going to ask him about that. 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:03.219 And he's also the author of a book, of a new thriller, about the racing 00:01:03.219 --> 00:01:04.889 industry, the horse racing industry. 00:01:05.259 --> 00:01:06.379 Which is doing quite well. 00:01:06.689 --> 00:01:11.689 And he's a lifelong passionate devotee of the racing industry. 00:01:12.129 --> 00:01:16.639 His book delves into some of the darker sides of the racing industry, 00:01:16.649 --> 00:01:17.153 which of course is pretty interesting. 00:01:18.064 --> 00:01:23.604 Makes it interesting as a thriller and it joins a long line of racing thrillers by 00:01:23.604 --> 00:01:25.404 authors such as Dick Francis and so on. 00:01:25.954 --> 00:01:30.444 But at the same time he does draw attention to some of the things 00:01:30.444 --> 00:01:35.084 within that industry that could do better, that could use some reform. 00:01:35.734 --> 00:01:42.194 And also he's in a position to sort of talk about how as a young boy in Long 00:01:42.194 --> 00:01:48.904 Island growing up far from horses, he sort of Managed to self actualize both 00:01:48.904 --> 00:01:57.664 as a, as a geek and as someone who fell in love with the horse and Speed and 00:01:57.674 --> 00:02:01.514 that the sort of beauty and of the whole aesthetic and has managed to sort of 00:02:01.524 --> 00:02:08.074 marry the two things together in a rather interesting way While living in You 00:02:08.074 --> 00:02:13.924 know, a quiet private life and, you know, the sort of life that most of us lead. 00:02:14.224 --> 00:02:17.674 So I think for those of you who are interested in how do you write a good 00:02:17.674 --> 00:02:21.244 book and how do you self publish it, those of you who are interested in 00:02:21.244 --> 00:02:25.184 the racing industry, those of you who are interested in tech, and how 00:02:25.184 --> 00:02:27.654 the whole tech boom has happened and where it's going and all that, I 00:02:27.894 --> 00:02:30.144 think Victor's got a lot to tell us. 00:02:31.054 --> 00:02:34.994 And his book Heliacal Star sort of serves as a bit of a 00:02:34.994 --> 00:02:36.494 nexus for all of these things. 00:02:36.694 --> 00:02:39.334 So, welcome to Live Free Ride Free, Victor. 00:02:39.604 --> 00:02:43.114 Please tell us a little bit about who you are and how you came to be. 00:02:45.104 --> 00:02:47.504 Victor Bahna: Well, thank you for, for the invite and thank 00:02:47.504 --> 00:02:48.534 you for having me on today. 00:02:48.534 --> 00:02:49.834 I really appreciate it. 00:02:50.244 --> 00:02:55.104 And as far as, you know, my, my story is, as you referenced, I, 00:02:55.994 --> 00:03:01.014 I grew up on Long Island not You know, from a geographic perspective, 00:03:01.364 --> 00:03:04.404 just a few miles from JFK airport. 00:03:04.404 --> 00:03:10.401 So, pretty close to to New York City and not a place where you necessarily 00:03:10.401 --> 00:03:15.601 find a lot of horses, unless you're at Belmont racetrack, which is also 00:03:15.601 --> 00:03:17.431 kind of on the New York City line. 00:03:18.226 --> 00:03:22.216 And not too far from where I grew up and that's, that's where I actually 00:03:22.266 --> 00:03:26.926 was first introduced to to any kind of a horse through through, through the 00:03:26.926 --> 00:03:32.296 racing business when I was probably not legal to be gambling on horses. 00:03:32.796 --> 00:03:36.896 I found my way to to the racetrack and it was at a time where. 00:03:37.191 --> 00:03:43.611 We actually had to ask other older people to make our bets for us because we would 00:03:43.611 --> 00:03:46.461 get carded and and not allowed to bet. 00:03:46.461 --> 00:03:49.731 But that was my first that was my first experience with 00:03:49.751 --> 00:03:51.221 with horses and with racing. 00:03:51.231 --> 00:03:54.031 And it was very alluring. 00:03:54.131 --> 00:03:55.441 It was very intoxicating. 00:03:55.941 --> 00:03:59.881 There was a bit of a taboo in the sense of, you know, we weren't legal to do that. 00:04:00.101 --> 00:04:05.241 So we had that sort of allure but there was also this, this potential for 00:04:05.241 --> 00:04:09.571 making money by doing a little homework, understanding, you know, how to read 00:04:09.571 --> 00:04:14.981 a racing form and, and handicap and putting ourselves in a position where we 00:04:14.981 --> 00:04:17.011 could possibly win, win a few dollars. 00:04:17.011 --> 00:04:20.461 And then after winning a couple of dollars, a few times, you know, that. 00:04:20.726 --> 00:04:24.236 Also sort of became an interesting hobby, let's say amongst 00:04:24.296 --> 00:04:26.056 myself and a few of my friends. 00:04:26.216 --> 00:04:31.776 And so this is this is where we spent our, our classroom time in in high 00:04:31.776 --> 00:04:36.546 school, oftentimes, you know, inside of our textbooks, we would find some of 00:04:36.546 --> 00:04:38.446 the past performances of the racetracks. 00:04:38.446 --> 00:04:42.526 And instead of paying attention to the, the instruction of the 00:04:42.526 --> 00:04:45.676 day, we would be figuring out who was going to win the late double. 00:04:46.506 --> 00:04:47.706 And that was that was a fun 00:04:48.056 --> 00:04:48.446 Rupert Isaacson: bus. 00:04:48.466 --> 00:04:49.036 In other words, 00:04:49.776 --> 00:04:53.336 Victor Bahna: Yes, we were doing calculus and math and statistical analysis back 00:04:53.336 --> 00:04:56.036 then we were we were a little ahead of our time, I guess, in that sense. 00:04:56.086 --> 00:04:58.846 And this is, of course, before the Internet and before the Sort 00:04:58.846 --> 00:05:00.076 of the tech boom, so to speak. 00:05:00.076 --> 00:05:03.796 So, you know, everything was on paper back then, and we had our our pens 00:05:03.796 --> 00:05:05.516 and markings and all that other stuff. 00:05:06.016 --> 00:05:09.066 That was seems like a very long time ago. 00:05:09.106 --> 00:05:11.706 And, you know, what? 00:05:11.716 --> 00:05:12.366 How do you say it? 00:05:12.476 --> 00:05:14.566 Long time ago in a place far, far away. 00:05:14.616 --> 00:05:18.726 And so, after college, went to, went to college on Long Island as well. 00:05:18.826 --> 00:05:23.216 Found myself employed at a personal products company called Unilever, 00:05:23.266 --> 00:05:24.656 which you may be familiar with. 00:05:25.066 --> 00:05:26.746 Rupert Isaacson: I went to school next door to the head office. 00:05:27.891 --> 00:05:28.251 Victor Bahna: Ah, okay. 00:05:28.251 --> 00:05:28.581 There you go. 00:05:28.581 --> 00:05:29.271 In the city of London. 00:05:29.331 --> 00:05:29.571 Yeah. 00:05:30.291 --> 00:05:30.561 Yep. 00:05:30.591 --> 00:05:30.831 Yep. 00:05:30.861 --> 00:05:33.381 It was anglis, Anglo Dutch company. 00:05:33.471 --> 00:05:33.591 Mm-Hmm. 00:05:33.861 --> 00:05:40.246 . It had had headquarters in in, in London, excuse me, and in Netherlands. 00:05:40.986 --> 00:05:45.186 And so I spent my first eight years of my career working in supply. 00:05:45.926 --> 00:05:49.536 For in New York City for Unilever, the subsidiary was called Lever 00:05:49.536 --> 00:05:51.176 Brothers in in New York City. 00:05:51.186 --> 00:05:53.106 It was quite a, quite a nice place. 00:05:53.106 --> 00:05:54.176 It was on Park Avenue. 00:05:55.256 --> 00:05:59.096 And so I got to have that experience of, of working in downtown 00:05:59.166 --> 00:06:01.506 Manhattan for for about 8 years. 00:06:02.006 --> 00:06:09.426 And I got a call from Microsoft at that time, and it was 1995, and they were 00:06:09.426 --> 00:06:12.886 looking for someone to, this is when we were still doing a lot of shrink rep. 00:06:12.886 --> 00:06:15.656 1995 product for for tech. 00:06:15.806 --> 00:06:18.566 So everything was in a, in a floppy disk. 00:06:19.066 --> 00:06:21.136 CDs weren't even out yet at that time. 00:06:21.166 --> 00:06:25.026 So everything was boxed up in floppy disks and, and there was a supply 00:06:25.026 --> 00:06:28.626 chain, and believe it or not for for technology back then, and Microsoft 00:06:28.626 --> 00:06:35.296 was trying to launch their windows 95 product, and we're looking for someone 00:06:35.296 --> 00:06:36.546 to help them with their supply chain. 00:06:36.546 --> 00:06:38.826 So I interviewed, got the job. 00:06:38.916 --> 00:06:41.256 We ended up going from New York to Seattle. 00:06:41.756 --> 00:06:46.726 Which is where I am today, ended up spending 17 years at Microsoft. 00:06:46.726 --> 00:06:51.906 And I went from the interesting thing about Microsoft at that time 00:06:51.906 --> 00:06:56.366 was you can actually reinvent your career without changing your company. 00:06:56.616 --> 00:07:02.606 They were very much a company that looked at your skills and your talent. 00:07:02.656 --> 00:07:06.506 And they understood that even if you weren't necessarily. 00:07:07.136 --> 00:07:11.076 Deep in one particular domain, we could train you in that domain. 00:07:11.076 --> 00:07:14.116 If you had different skills, like leadership skills and. 00:07:15.011 --> 00:07:17.341 Acumen for learning and so forth. 00:07:17.351 --> 00:07:21.641 So I actually ended up going from supply chain while I was at Microsoft into it. 00:07:23.191 --> 00:07:28.701 And my first exposure to it was running their internal help desk, which I did 00:07:28.711 --> 00:07:32.991 for a couple of years, but the help desk I thought was the best way for 00:07:33.021 --> 00:07:38.001 me to get introduced into tech because I got to learn everything through the 00:07:38.001 --> 00:07:40.021 problems people were experiencing. 00:07:40.111 --> 00:07:41.041 And these were users. 00:07:41.286 --> 00:07:45.756 Of Mike, since it was an internal help desk, it wasn't for external 00:07:45.776 --> 00:07:51.436 customers, but it helped me understand where people were running into issues. 00:07:51.436 --> 00:07:55.356 And it was actually in almost a backwards way of learning. 00:07:55.356 --> 00:07:59.286 But, but you, because typically when you learn in a textbook, you're learning about 00:07:59.286 --> 00:08:03.666 how things are supposed to work and I was learning about things because they were 00:08:03.666 --> 00:08:06.816 broken and kind of reverse engineering back to how it should be working. 00:08:07.216 --> 00:08:12.696 And so that was a very unique, but I thought pretty powerful way for me to 00:08:12.696 --> 00:08:14.566 to get into it and to get into tech. 00:08:14.576 --> 00:08:17.846 And started out managing vendors initially, but then, you know, when you 00:08:17.856 --> 00:08:19.316 immerse yourself in that environment. 00:08:20.086 --> 00:08:23.256 You start to pick up and learn the jargon and the technology 00:08:23.256 --> 00:08:24.776 and it evolved from there. 00:08:24.826 --> 00:08:28.836 I ended up doing several things in the tech space, or in the IT 00:08:28.836 --> 00:08:31.126 space, I should say with Microsoft. 00:08:31.206 --> 00:08:35.266 Then they started launching their online services which you may know 00:08:35.366 --> 00:08:41.696 today as it's Azure and it's Office 365 or the sort of Charter products 00:08:41.696 --> 00:08:44.016 that they, that they offer on online. 00:08:44.956 --> 00:08:50.166 And so, I did some, some work with with those groups. 00:08:50.366 --> 00:08:54.376 Went to another company called ServiceNow back in 2012. 00:08:54.446 --> 00:08:57.006 Spent a few years with them and then ended up with my current 00:08:57.006 --> 00:08:58.456 company which is Nutanix. 00:08:59.466 --> 00:09:04.656 When I was at Microsoft, it was probably about, I want, I want to 00:09:04.656 --> 00:09:11.286 say about 10 years into the gig at Microsoft, where I was fortunate enough 00:09:11.316 --> 00:09:14.346 to have accumulated some some equity. 00:09:15.656 --> 00:09:21.936 And I started to revisit my interest in horses at that time. 00:09:21.936 --> 00:09:26.156 So I went to a local racetrack here called Emerald downs. 00:09:26.916 --> 00:09:31.766 And after a couple of visits to their track, I kind of got that because, because 00:09:31.776 --> 00:09:38.686 for a long time between really, you know, my college years and this you know, 10 00:09:38.686 --> 00:09:42.916 years into Microsoft, I hadn't spent a lot of time at the races with horses, because 00:09:42.916 --> 00:09:47.096 I'd just been super busy, you know, with work and the family and young kids 00:09:47.096 --> 00:09:49.406 and all the stuff that comes with that. 00:09:50.306 --> 00:09:54.806 And so finally, I got to the point where, Hey, I have a little bit of time. 00:09:55.201 --> 00:10:00.091 I have a little bit of money went back to the racetrack and that feeling came 00:10:00.091 --> 00:10:04.311 back in terms of the excitement and the allure, but this time I was looking at 00:10:04.311 --> 00:10:08.491 it from a slightly different perspective and I went to what, what they had an 00:10:08.511 --> 00:10:13.281 owners or potential owners seminar and a couple of trainers were speaking at 00:10:13.281 --> 00:10:16.671 the seminar and it just, it just was something that seemed like it would 00:10:16.671 --> 00:10:19.401 be a really interesting, you know, 00:10:21.651 --> 00:10:25.971 Pursuit to maybe get into the ownership side of, of racing. 00:10:26.901 --> 00:10:30.011 And Emerald downs is not your Belmont or Saratoga, or, you 00:10:30.011 --> 00:10:33.271 know, the Santa Anita or Del Mar. 00:10:33.271 --> 00:10:35.271 It's not one of your bigger venues. 00:10:35.281 --> 00:10:39.471 So the entry point into ownership is not very high compared to 00:10:39.471 --> 00:10:40.671 some of those other places. 00:10:41.171 --> 00:10:43.761 The, the, the cost of a horse is going to be a little bit lower. 00:10:43.761 --> 00:10:45.131 The day rate's going to be a little bit lower. 00:10:45.131 --> 00:10:45.611 So it's a. 00:10:46.136 --> 00:10:47.666 It was an easier place to. 00:10:47.926 --> 00:10:48.736 Rupert Isaacson: What's the day rate? 00:10:48.766 --> 00:10:49.366 What does that mean? 00:10:50.206 --> 00:10:54.686 Victor Bahna: The day rate would be what you're paying your trainer basically for 00:10:54.686 --> 00:11:00.286 the boarding and training feeding care of your horse when they're out of the track 00:11:00.986 --> 00:11:04.266 and those day rates can vary quite a lot. 00:11:04.556 --> 00:11:11.306 Back then it was probably 50 or 55 a day in Washington state where yeah, 00:11:11.636 --> 00:11:15.806 If you were in some of the bigger circuits like Del Mar or or New York, it 00:11:15.806 --> 00:11:17.746 would be over a hundred dollars a day. 00:11:17.746 --> 00:11:21.436 So almost a two X difference in, in day rate. 00:11:21.446 --> 00:11:24.616 And you know, over the course of 30 days, that can, that can add up quite a bit. 00:11:25.356 --> 00:11:25.656 Yeah. 00:11:25.766 --> 00:11:29.006 So, so I did, I, I ended up claiming a horse. 00:11:29.066 --> 00:11:34.916 What is my first claiming horse, claiming horse basically is every horse that's in 00:11:34.966 --> 00:11:37.776 a claiming race is effectively for sale. 00:11:39.026 --> 00:11:45.161 And what you would do is you would Make sure you've got the funds at the 00:11:45.161 --> 00:11:50.671 bookkeeper ahead of the race and you would file a form that would basically be 00:11:50.671 --> 00:11:55.751 a claim form that, that says you intend to buy this horse, you've got the funds 00:11:55.911 --> 00:12:02.791 which means after the race is over, that horse becomes yours, but the results of 00:12:02.791 --> 00:12:04.421 the race still go to the previous owner. 00:12:04.811 --> 00:12:08.281 What makes claiming interesting is that it's a bit of a. 00:12:08.781 --> 00:12:12.081 It levels the playing field quite a bit with with the races in the U. 00:12:12.081 --> 00:12:17.721 S., because if you're putting your horse up for sale for, let's say, 20, 00:12:17.721 --> 00:12:24.151 000 and your horse can't compete at that level, then you're going to have 00:12:24.151 --> 00:12:26.491 to drop that horse into a lower level. 00:12:26.581 --> 00:12:30.981 So you might have to drop them into a 10, 000 race or even a 5, 000 race 00:12:31.981 --> 00:12:33.831 where they become more competitive. 00:12:34.331 --> 00:12:38.371 That makes them more likely to be claimed or sold, you 00:12:38.371 --> 00:12:40.221 know, in that race as an owner. 00:12:40.221 --> 00:12:44.561 You don't know if that horse is, you don't know if another owner has made a claim on 00:12:44.561 --> 00:12:47.301 your horse until after the race is over. 00:12:48.531 --> 00:12:53.101 So you don't have the option of, let's say, withdrawing your horse because, oh, 00:12:53.101 --> 00:12:55.131 wait, I don't want this horse to get sold. 00:12:55.701 --> 00:12:58.051 So therefore I'm going to pull them out of the race at the last minute. 00:12:58.861 --> 00:13:01.571 You don't know if anyone's putting in a claim, so you don't really. 00:13:02.636 --> 00:13:05.506 have a you're not going to be able to make that decision. 00:13:06.006 --> 00:13:09.436 So that's what I ended up doing is I put in a claim for this horse. 00:13:09.526 --> 00:13:13.606 I was able if, and if there could be multiple claims also for any particular 00:13:13.606 --> 00:13:15.256 horse how do they decide who wins 00:13:15.286 --> 00:13:15.726 Rupert Isaacson: the claim? 00:13:16.756 --> 00:13:20.191 Victor Bahna: Well, what they would do is they would put your effectively, they 00:13:20.191 --> 00:13:23.021 put your names in a hat and they pull one out and they say, okay, you're the winner 00:13:23.021 --> 00:13:28.981 of this this particular claim to actually use lottery balls and everyone gets 00:13:28.981 --> 00:13:34.041 assigned a lottery ball and they shake them up and they pull one out and whoever 00:13:34.141 --> 00:13:38.856 is the lucky or unlucky person that has that number ends up with the horse. 00:13:39.356 --> 00:13:41.886 I say lucky or unlucky because if the horse runs well, you want to 00:13:42.056 --> 00:13:43.336 be the one that wins that horse. 00:13:43.336 --> 00:13:46.126 And if the horse runs really poorly, you're hoping that maybe someone 00:13:46.126 --> 00:13:47.856 else will, will, will get that horse. 00:13:48.406 --> 00:13:51.286 So, so that's, that's one of the eight ways in which you can, you 00:13:51.286 --> 00:13:54.326 can actually become an owner of a racehorses by just you know. 00:13:54.386 --> 00:13:55.476 You say eight ways. 00:13:56.386 --> 00:13:57.596 It's one of the ways, sorry. 00:13:57.626 --> 00:14:00.276 There's, there are multiple, there are definitely multiple ways in 00:14:00.276 --> 00:14:01.586 which you can acquire a racehorse. 00:14:01.596 --> 00:14:07.856 This is probably the, the One of the easier ways, it's one of the least risky 00:14:07.856 --> 00:14:12.166 ways, but it also has limited upside, because you've also seen that horse 00:14:12.206 --> 00:14:16.056 likely perform on the racetrack at least once or twice, or maybe multiple times, 00:14:16.066 --> 00:14:17.586 so you kind of know what you're getting. 00:14:17.976 --> 00:14:21.546 As long as the horse stays sound and in this case, I was able to to, to get 00:14:21.546 --> 00:14:25.216 my first racehorse and, and it kind of took off from there in terms of 00:14:25.216 --> 00:14:30.886 my, my level of interest, my ownership and my passion, really, I mean, you, 00:14:30.886 --> 00:14:34.896 you mentioned actualization, I think that might've been the start of my 00:14:34.896 --> 00:14:39.056 actualization because, you know, it led to so many different things for me, 00:14:39.066 --> 00:14:44.506 including getting to the point where I was retiring some horses for various reasons 00:14:44.546 --> 00:14:49.626 and decided that I wanted to, well, this is actually where I learned quite 00:14:49.626 --> 00:14:53.176 a bit about what happens to these horses potentially after they're done racing. 00:14:53.466 --> 00:14:56.986 And some of the outcomes are not very good, especially for the horse. 00:14:57.996 --> 00:15:01.216 And so this is where I decided that I was going to make sure that, you 00:15:01.216 --> 00:15:04.386 know, my horses, if I'm retiring them, are not going to end up in a 00:15:04.386 --> 00:15:07.396 situation where, you know, they're going to be put at any kind of risk. 00:15:07.876 --> 00:15:13.166 So I ended up Keeping a couple and one of the horses that I, that I 00:15:13.186 --> 00:15:17.666 did keep, he's he's currently an 18 year old thoroughbred and I ride 00:15:17.666 --> 00:15:19.786 him on a pretty regular basis now. 00:15:19.786 --> 00:15:22.796 So, I, I started getting into riding lessons. 00:15:23.436 --> 00:15:27.556 I started to work with him on a, on a regular basis, learned 00:15:27.936 --> 00:15:31.386 a lot of horsemanship in, in the process of doing that. 00:15:31.406 --> 00:15:36.116 And also built a relationship with him to the point where At first it was a 00:15:36.116 --> 00:15:40.396 situation where I wasn't really sure, you know, what to do or what he wanted. 00:15:40.396 --> 00:15:42.666 And now we're at a point where I feel like we communicate with 00:15:42.666 --> 00:15:44.526 each other very effectively. 00:15:45.196 --> 00:15:48.686 Like I could read his, his signs and he tends to read mine actually. 00:15:48.686 --> 00:15:51.046 And it's, it's quite an interesting relationship now 00:15:51.046 --> 00:15:52.626 that I've, I've built with him. 00:15:52.656 --> 00:15:56.656 So that's also part of the kind of that whole process that I've been through 00:15:56.776 --> 00:15:59.096 with regard to having that experience. 00:15:59.096 --> 00:16:00.496 And it's, it's one of those things. 00:16:01.426 --> 00:16:05.336 That I feel is hard to explain unless you experience it yourself. 00:16:05.456 --> 00:16:08.596 You know, you can, you can talk about it and it's kind of like watching a show 00:16:08.606 --> 00:16:13.056 versus, you know, or watching a travel show versus visiting the travel site. 00:16:13.606 --> 00:16:17.886 Having that experience and, and having that relationship with with this horse 00:16:17.896 --> 00:16:23.566 was, is, and continues to be a, a very fulfilling and mostly positive experience. 00:16:24.246 --> 00:16:24.476 Why 00:16:24.476 --> 00:16:26.416 Rupert Isaacson: is the relationship with the horse fulfilling? 00:16:28.856 --> 00:16:34.426 Victor Bahna: It, he's become a counterbalance to the stresses 00:16:34.426 --> 00:16:36.116 in the world of tech for me. 00:16:36.386 --> 00:16:39.186 The horse is bringing me back to nature. 00:16:39.246 --> 00:16:43.416 It's bringing me back to a it's. 00:16:43.996 --> 00:16:45.546 It's not a machine. 00:16:46.356 --> 00:16:48.866 You know, some people think of our horses, especially racehorses and 00:16:48.876 --> 00:16:52.406 machines, and they're just going to do the same thing every time. 00:16:52.456 --> 00:16:53.956 He's definitely not a machine. 00:16:54.156 --> 00:16:57.396 I didn't know that you can actually have this kind of a relationship 00:16:57.396 --> 00:17:00.516 with a horse where you can, you can, you can really relate. 00:17:01.036 --> 00:17:06.686 To him, I, I actually joke around sometimes and I'm, I'm partially 00:17:06.686 --> 00:17:10.466 serious though, in the sense that he's, he's become very therapeutic for me 00:17:10.616 --> 00:17:13.106 in, in managing some of my stresses. 00:17:13.196 --> 00:17:14.476 Just being able to 00:17:16.786 --> 00:17:22.766 spend time with him and just general lessons that I've learned from him, 00:17:22.766 --> 00:17:27.456 like with a horse, you don't, you don't escalate, you deescalate when 00:17:27.456 --> 00:17:30.816 you're in a situation where things are getting a little bit testy. 00:17:31.266 --> 00:17:32.906 When you're on, on. 00:17:33.511 --> 00:17:34.571 When you're riding a horse. 00:17:36.196 --> 00:17:40.036 It's best to try to relax and not be nervous, because if you're nervous, he's 00:17:40.036 --> 00:17:43.406 going to get nervous, and if he gets nervous, then he's going to get on edge, 00:17:43.406 --> 00:17:46.606 and if he's on edge, then he's going to spook, and then if he spooks, you might 00:17:46.916 --> 00:17:50.846 get thrown from the horse, and it's almost counterintuitive, because your instincts 00:17:51.896 --> 00:17:57.136 are to Grab the horse with your legs and hold on and make sure you don't fall off. 00:17:57.156 --> 00:17:59.846 But that's really the opposite of what you want to be doing. 00:17:59.846 --> 00:18:04.326 And so this is the kind of stuff that I, that I learned in, in just 00:18:04.346 --> 00:18:08.026 interacting with him, learning to read his, his body language. 00:18:08.026 --> 00:18:13.036 Like if he reacted to something, maybe it's not because he's being fresh. 00:18:13.576 --> 00:18:14.356 Maybe he's. 00:18:15.026 --> 00:18:18.796 Not feeling well, or he's got an issue, and, you know, we find out that, oh, he's 00:18:18.806 --> 00:18:23.056 got an abscess, or he's got, he's got a scratch somewhere, or, you know, some 00:18:23.056 --> 00:18:26.906 kind of a cut somewhere or, you know, just being sensitized to some of that, 00:18:26.966 --> 00:18:30.096 and sometimes he is being a brat, and being able to understand the differences 00:18:30.096 --> 00:18:35.336 between when he's just being, you know, a little playful, let's say, versus, 00:18:35.366 --> 00:18:38.904 versus, you know, having, having some issues, so a lot of this really was, you 00:18:38.904 --> 00:18:44.961 know, was grounding for me in the sense that you can't just bully a horse either. 00:18:44.971 --> 00:18:47.101 You have to learn to work with them as a teammate. 00:18:47.521 --> 00:18:49.111 You have to cooperate with them. 00:18:50.051 --> 00:18:52.511 You could try to, you know, in the old days, I guess this is what 00:18:52.511 --> 00:18:54.301 we did is we, we broke horses. 00:18:54.301 --> 00:18:56.601 We still call it breaking, even though we don't necessarily follow 00:18:56.601 --> 00:19:00.241 the same process that we did, you know, 40, 50, 60 years ago. 00:19:01.421 --> 00:19:04.161 But breaking the will of the horse is not how you're going 00:19:04.161 --> 00:19:05.341 to build that relationship. 00:19:05.341 --> 00:19:09.331 But understanding you've got a thousand or 1200 pounds. 00:19:09.706 --> 00:19:15.686 of animal that if you don't learn how to work with them, it's just not going to 00:19:15.686 --> 00:19:17.326 be a great experience for either of you. 00:19:17.846 --> 00:19:22.746 So a lot of these things really kind of came through in In my relationship 00:19:22.746 --> 00:19:26.136 with this horse and, and a lot of those things I'm able to carry through in 00:19:26.136 --> 00:19:30.246 my job as well, you know, I, again, like deescalating, you know, people, 00:19:30.586 --> 00:19:35.836 especially with electronic communications can be, you know, keyboard warriors, 00:19:35.836 --> 00:19:39.186 as we say, and you know, they don't necessarily mean everything that they're 00:19:39.186 --> 00:19:41.466 saying, but if you can just kind of. 00:19:42.766 --> 00:19:47.096 Just assume good intent with with what people are trying to communicate and 00:19:47.096 --> 00:19:48.846 then just rephrase it or just kind of, 00:19:49.086 --> 00:19:49.376 Victor Bahna (2): you know, 00:19:49.526 --> 00:19:52.506 Victor Bahna: tone things down a little bit, you know, things tend to get done 00:19:52.506 --> 00:19:56.426 a lot, a lot better than when you're when you're, you know, combating it 00:19:56.446 --> 00:20:00.316 or, or raising the bar, so to speak, or taking it to the next level. 00:20:00.486 --> 00:20:02.921 And, you know, I don't know if I would have, you know, Gotten there. 00:20:02.921 --> 00:20:06.151 If I didn't have some of these experiences with did you used to be 00:20:06.451 --> 00:20:07.671 Rupert Isaacson: a tech escalator? 00:20:07.701 --> 00:20:10.041 Like, was there a time when you were like, Oh, I 00:20:10.041 --> 00:20:10.701 Victor Bahna: was a hothead. 00:20:10.741 --> 00:20:11.671 I was total hothead. 00:20:11.761 --> 00:20:11.961 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:20:11.961 --> 00:20:13.911 In what way? 00:20:13.911 --> 00:20:17.931 Because I presume that, okay, we all, you know, know what internet trolls 00:20:17.931 --> 00:20:22.561 are like, and we all know that people feel bolder behind the keyboard than 00:20:22.561 --> 00:20:26.901 they would standing face to face on the street, obviously say things they would 00:20:26.901 --> 00:20:32.031 never say to anyone's face, but That's a given, but I would have thought that if 00:20:32.031 --> 00:20:38.071 you were going to pursue and then keep a good career with, for example, Microsoft, 00:20:38.961 --> 00:20:44.241 surely they would be looking for people that were not like that because at the end 00:20:44.241 --> 00:20:48.581 of the day those people cause conflict and conflict is a draining of resources rather 00:20:48.581 --> 00:20:51.506 than a, you know, Bringer of resources. 00:20:51.606 --> 00:20:56.636 So when you were, say you were a hothead, were you a hothead at Microsoft? 00:20:56.636 --> 00:20:59.196 And if so, like, how did you get away with that? 00:20:59.256 --> 00:21:01.336 Or did they even encourage that at the company? 00:21:01.376 --> 00:21:05.766 And when did you find perhaps in the short term that it worked for you or 00:21:05.766 --> 00:21:08.756 did it always work against you and you just sort of didn't know, in which 00:21:08.756 --> 00:21:10.156 case, sort of, how didn't you get fired? 00:21:10.156 --> 00:21:11.966 Like, talk, talk us through that a little bit. 00:21:12.336 --> 00:21:12.646 Victor Bahna: Sure. 00:21:14.066 --> 00:21:17.476 I think in the early days of tech and I was fortunate enough to be sort of 00:21:17.476 --> 00:21:20.376 in those early days of of technology. 00:21:20.671 --> 00:21:22.541 It was more about results. 00:21:23.781 --> 00:21:29.441 It was, you need to deliver results and it didn't really 00:21:29.441 --> 00:21:31.581 matter how you got those results. 00:21:31.971 --> 00:21:34.431 Rupert Isaacson: And what results were you being expected to get? 00:21:35.801 --> 00:21:39.401 Victor Bahna: In, in my case, it was ensuring that we had enough product. 00:21:39.796 --> 00:21:44.856 It was ensuring that we you know, had the right, and again, back to the 00:21:44.856 --> 00:21:49.806 package product days when I started at, at Microsoft, it was all about ensuring 00:21:49.806 --> 00:21:53.796 that the stores had product, but that we didn't have too much product where it was. 00:21:56.111 --> 00:21:59.631 Costing us a lot of money to, to hold that product or to, or 00:21:59.631 --> 00:22:01.441 to buy an expense, that product. 00:22:01.991 --> 00:22:04.971 And so that was where the pressure was, is you had to sort of hit 00:22:04.971 --> 00:22:08.341 that sweet spot with regard to the amount of inventory that you carried 00:22:08.411 --> 00:22:11.081 Rupert Isaacson: that's when you were on the, on the, on the product 00:22:11.081 --> 00:22:12.541 line, right on the, that's what, 00:22:12.661 --> 00:22:13.661 Victor Bahna: yeah, on the supply. 00:22:14.461 --> 00:22:14.811 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:22:14.811 --> 00:22:15.981 And I can, I can see people. 00:22:16.451 --> 00:22:18.401 Being aggressive about getting a good deal. 00:22:19.021 --> 00:22:23.581 But once you moved over to Microsoft and you made the shift to tech itself, 00:22:24.151 --> 00:22:27.141 did that hotheadedness stay with you? 00:22:27.831 --> 00:22:31.531 And that escalatory thing and how did that not negatively 00:22:31.531 --> 00:22:32.811 impact your career basically? 00:22:34.291 --> 00:22:38.821 Victor Bahna: I think it, I think I wasn't 100 percent hothead, so I should probably 00:22:38.881 --> 00:22:42.731 qualify that but there were definitely moments where I was, I was very pushy. 00:22:42.771 --> 00:22:46.901 I would, I would require you know, people to be working probably 00:22:47.411 --> 00:22:49.001 hours that were not reasonable. 00:22:49.251 --> 00:22:51.981 I pushed myself where I was working probably, 00:22:54.061 --> 00:22:57.441 I would, I would get to the, I would leave my house probably around 7 a. 00:22:57.441 --> 00:22:57.651 m. 00:22:57.651 --> 00:22:58.371 most days. 00:22:58.751 --> 00:23:02.321 Get to the office by 730 and I would probably wouldn't come home till you 00:23:02.321 --> 00:23:06.791 know, 8 9 o'clock A lot of nights and then again we weren't necessarily on on 00:23:06.791 --> 00:23:11.291 laptops at home then And that and and because I was doing that that was my 00:23:11.291 --> 00:23:14.121 expectation of other people as well But 00:23:14.181 --> 00:23:14.501 Victor Bahna (2): you know, 00:23:14.511 --> 00:23:18.831 Victor Bahna: I I I Kind of pushed people into doing things that I look 00:23:18.841 --> 00:23:22.331 back on today and think, you know, that probably wasn't the right thing to do, 00:23:23.241 --> 00:23:24.551 but at the time it was the corporate 00:23:24.551 --> 00:23:25.411 Rupert Isaacson: culture of the time. 00:23:25.411 --> 00:23:26.621 Yeah, it 00:23:26.621 --> 00:23:29.321 Victor Bahna: was to a large extent and and results mattered. 00:23:29.461 --> 00:23:34.801 And so if we needed to work, well, 14, 15 hours a day, you know, over several weeks 00:23:34.801 --> 00:23:36.171 or months, you know, that's what we did. 00:23:36.461 --> 00:23:39.081 And I pushed my team to to do that as well. 00:23:39.631 --> 00:23:41.561 And, you know, sometimes. 00:23:42.141 --> 00:23:44.601 You know, they wouldn't necessarily agree with all that. 00:23:44.681 --> 00:23:48.251 And, you know, that's when the the terseness might might come 00:23:48.251 --> 00:23:50.861 into play in terms of, you know, we have to get this done. 00:23:50.871 --> 00:23:51.571 This is our job. 00:23:52.051 --> 00:23:53.101 This is what we're paid for. 00:23:53.101 --> 00:23:57.501 And it wasn't necessarily very friendly or encouraging or motivating. 00:23:57.836 --> 00:24:02.646 And, and in time, you know, I did, as I, as I aged, you know, I, I learned 00:24:02.656 --> 00:24:10.166 some self introspection, but I think it really kicked in a lot more when I started 00:24:10.166 --> 00:24:12.016 working with with the retired resource. 00:24:12.016 --> 00:24:16.946 I think that was when everything really came together for me and, 00:24:16.986 --> 00:24:23.346 and my tone and behavior probably shifted much more towards the. 00:24:23.781 --> 00:24:26.511 Let's, let's really work together. 00:24:26.511 --> 00:24:27.951 Let's be much more positive. 00:24:27.951 --> 00:24:29.171 Let's be more encouraging. 00:24:29.171 --> 00:24:30.391 Let's be more motivating. 00:24:31.731 --> 00:24:32.471 And that continues. 00:24:32.471 --> 00:24:33.971 It's so it's always a working process. 00:24:33.981 --> 00:24:40.021 I mean, but I have learned to to not react as much from from where I was 00:24:40.021 --> 00:24:41.961 back in my early days of my career. 00:24:42.011 --> 00:24:44.761 You would send an email back then and. 00:24:45.821 --> 00:24:49.981 You know, six hours, day later, you'd, you'd be like, why did I send that email? 00:24:49.981 --> 00:24:50.771 You almost regret it. 00:24:50.811 --> 00:24:54.771 And so, you know, that, that restraint wasn't there, you know, the, the 00:24:54.771 --> 00:24:59.051 filters weren't there and, and you know, maybe I would have gotten there. 00:24:59.051 --> 00:24:59.961 Maybe I wouldn't have. 00:25:00.091 --> 00:25:06.251 But I do think that the awareness that I gained by working with the racehorse 00:25:06.271 --> 00:25:09.941 was, was taking it to a new level for me. 00:25:09.991 --> 00:25:15.171 And and I, and I genuinely appreciate you know, how, however that came to be. 00:25:15.501 --> 00:25:18.171 However, things ended up working out. 00:25:18.251 --> 00:25:22.421 I, I genuinely appreciate the fact that he's in my life and, and we've 00:25:22.441 --> 00:25:24.181 built a really strong relationship. 00:25:25.181 --> 00:25:30.601 Rupert Isaacson: Now you, you now own a resource owning syndicate Royal Victory. 00:25:30.981 --> 00:25:32.271 Thoroughbreds, is that correct? 00:25:32.751 --> 00:25:33.201 Victor Bahna: That's correct. 00:25:33.261 --> 00:25:33.391 Yeah, 00:25:33.441 --> 00:25:36.081 Rupert Isaacson: and you're also you're not just owning racehorses 00:25:36.081 --> 00:25:40.561 You're breeding them Tell us a little bit about why you got into that and 00:25:40.561 --> 00:25:43.581 then i'm going to ask you a couple of I'm going to warn you in advance 00:25:43.601 --> 00:25:47.591 slightly challenging questions about the racing industry because I I know it. 00:25:47.641 --> 00:25:52.831 From several different sides and I know You know what's not good about 00:25:52.841 --> 00:25:54.111 it as well as what's good about it. 00:25:54.121 --> 00:25:56.436 So you're now 00:26:00.426 --> 00:26:05.056 Working on, if you like, perpetuating the industry. 00:26:06.926 --> 00:26:07.596 What 00:26:09.666 --> 00:26:17.386 prompts you to get together with other groups of owners for the syndicate, 00:26:17.546 --> 00:26:19.356 you all own a share and a horse, etc. 00:26:20.306 --> 00:26:21.256 What's the motivation there? 00:26:21.526 --> 00:26:23.046 What's the motivation for the breeding? 00:26:23.106 --> 00:26:28.096 And what do you feel it's bringing to the world? 00:26:28.386 --> 00:26:31.576 And then I want to go a little bit into your book and then let's 00:26:31.576 --> 00:26:32.796 talk about the industry a bit. 00:26:33.391 --> 00:26:34.031 Victor Bahna: Yeah, sure. 00:26:34.051 --> 00:26:34.511 Rupert Isaacson: Sounds good. 00:26:34.961 --> 00:26:35.821 Victor Bahna: I'll start with breeding. 00:26:36.441 --> 00:26:43.556 So, as I mentioned a bit earlier, horses, tend to run into issues at some 00:26:43.556 --> 00:26:46.596 point in their career where they're not going to be competitive anymore. 00:26:47.606 --> 00:26:55.976 I had a, a mare who had won a couple of races and she was not 00:26:55.976 --> 00:26:57.606 going to be able to run anymore. 00:26:57.616 --> 00:26:59.806 In fact, she, she came down with a suspensory injury. 00:27:00.676 --> 00:27:01.286 And 00:27:01.636 --> 00:27:03.996 Rupert Isaacson: can you explain what a suspensory injury is for those? 00:27:04.006 --> 00:27:04.726 Yeah, it's, 00:27:05.236 --> 00:27:06.476 Victor Bahna: it's, it's an injury. 00:27:06.796 --> 00:27:14.136 Of the ligaments in the, in, in her case, it was her right front foreleg and between 00:27:14.146 --> 00:27:17.916 the knee and the the ankle or the fetlock. 00:27:18.416 --> 00:27:22.516 And what happens is those, those, those ligaments are very 00:27:22.536 --> 00:27:24.596 tight when, when a racehorse. 00:27:25.436 --> 00:27:32.476 And if they end up pulling or injuring those ligaments, they end up becoming 00:27:32.566 --> 00:27:38.156 less it affects their ability to to run quite frankly, because you know, 00:27:38.206 --> 00:27:40.536 that that tautness isn't there anymore. 00:27:40.576 --> 00:27:43.426 It's it's kind of like think of your own leg in that sense. 00:27:44.746 --> 00:27:47.476 There are some bones that connect into those ligaments. 00:27:48.151 --> 00:27:55.471 And one of those bones and I think it's called the sesamoid, is what 00:27:55.531 --> 00:27:58.291 this particular mare had fractured. 00:27:58.656 --> 00:28:04.226 After a race that she had been in, and my 1st reaction was, Oh, no, 00:28:04.266 --> 00:28:07.596 because you hear about, you know, horses injuring legs and they get 00:28:07.656 --> 00:28:09.416 they get euthanized on the racetrack. 00:28:09.456 --> 00:28:15.336 And that was my 1st fear was, Oh, my gosh, you know, minus situation where we're 00:28:15.336 --> 00:28:16.636 going to have to put this horse down. 00:28:17.576 --> 00:28:18.976 And so I, I. 00:28:19.476 --> 00:28:23.966 Went right back to the barn after, after that race and spoke with the 00:28:23.966 --> 00:28:27.416 veterinarian and the veterinarian said that you know, she's got an injury. 00:28:27.646 --> 00:28:30.096 It's most likely a career ending injury. 00:28:31.216 --> 00:28:36.741 And my first question was, is she Is she going to be okay, though? 00:28:36.911 --> 00:28:38.291 You know, are we going to have to put her down? 00:28:39.441 --> 00:28:42.121 And he reassured me, though, that we wouldn't have to do that. 00:28:42.181 --> 00:28:45.671 In fact, in this case, it wouldn't even require surgery, but she 00:28:45.671 --> 00:28:46.861 would need at least a year off. 00:28:46.901 --> 00:28:49.251 And we would have to nurse it back so that, you know, she 00:28:49.251 --> 00:28:50.661 gained, regained her health. 00:28:51.081 --> 00:28:53.011 Actually, I don't, actually, I don't remember if there was surgery or not. 00:28:53.011 --> 00:28:54.821 I don't think there was. 00:28:55.371 --> 00:28:56.841 Suspensory, 00:28:56.841 --> 00:28:58.511 Rupert Isaacson: it's just, basically, nine months of 00:28:58.511 --> 00:29:00.431 rest is usually the, the cure. 00:29:00.441 --> 00:29:00.951 Yeah. 00:29:00.981 --> 00:29:01.221 Victor Bahna: Yeah. 00:29:01.221 --> 00:29:04.111 I don't, yeah, I don't think there was any any surgery for this. 00:29:04.521 --> 00:29:08.281 Anyway, she so I've got this horse that is never going to race again. 00:29:08.351 --> 00:29:10.691 And what do I do with this horse? 00:29:10.691 --> 00:29:16.161 And, and I thought, well, you know, let me, let me see if I can breed the horse. 00:29:16.161 --> 00:29:20.161 She had good pedigree and she had good confirmation which is, which is how 00:29:20.161 --> 00:29:21.651 they're built, it's bone structure. 00:29:21.881 --> 00:29:25.231 And I thought she would maybe make a potentially good broodmare. 00:29:25.731 --> 00:29:28.761 So that's really how I got started in the breeding business is I thought 00:29:28.761 --> 00:29:32.521 it would be good to keep her to give her a home and to see if she can 00:29:32.521 --> 00:29:36.561 produce some, some babies that would eventually make it to the racetrack. 00:29:37.061 --> 00:29:39.971 And that's, that's, I, I've done that with a couple of mares. 00:29:40.001 --> 00:29:44.031 I've got, I've got two mares today that were former racehorses 00:29:44.031 --> 00:29:45.061 of mine that I'm breeding. 00:29:45.181 --> 00:29:47.421 One is On the East coast, one of them on the West coast. 00:29:47.921 --> 00:29:51.491 And it's been, it's been a good experience in the sense of learning sort of the 00:29:51.491 --> 00:29:59.071 whole life cycle of of, of the racing process from researching stallions to 00:30:00.191 --> 00:30:04.521 paying for stud fees, to pulling the baby, to watching them grow up, it's getting 00:30:04.521 --> 00:30:07.761 them to the racetrack and then even, you know, past that in terms of retirement, 00:30:07.811 --> 00:30:13.971 The partnership came about because I thought it would be, I, I. 00:30:14.416 --> 00:30:15.536 Get very excited. 00:30:15.586 --> 00:30:21.286 I don't think there's many circumstances as, as an older adult now, in 00:30:21.286 --> 00:30:22.936 which I get to act like a child. 00:30:23.206 --> 00:30:26.446 And so one of the experiences is when you're at the racetrack and 00:30:26.456 --> 00:30:30.966 you're, you're, you're watching your racehorse run, you can, you 00:30:30.966 --> 00:30:32.306 can act like a bit of a child. 00:30:32.336 --> 00:30:34.386 You know, you could scream at the top of your lungs. 00:30:34.406 --> 00:30:36.146 You can, you could feel that. 00:30:36.571 --> 00:30:38.061 That thrill and excitement. 00:30:38.151 --> 00:30:40.941 When, when they're coming down the lane, you know, and they're, they've 00:30:40.941 --> 00:30:42.781 got a chance of winning that race. 00:30:43.281 --> 00:30:46.771 You could also feel sort of the, sort of the, the, the crushing 00:30:47.131 --> 00:30:51.001 weight of defeat when when they lose and, and the utter disappointment 00:30:51.001 --> 00:30:52.101 that comes with with it's going to 00:30:52.121 --> 00:30:54.246 Rupert Isaacson: happen more often, you know, odds are, yeah. 00:30:54.636 --> 00:30:56.146 Victor Bahna: Odds are it's not going to happen. 00:30:56.166 --> 00:30:56.956 Yeah, exactly. 00:30:56.956 --> 00:30:58.806 You're going to, you're going to lose a lot more than you're going to win. 00:30:59.196 --> 00:31:03.566 And so, I, the rollercoaster of emotions that you go through is just, it's 00:31:03.566 --> 00:31:05.206 just one of those unique experiences. 00:31:05.206 --> 00:31:09.436 And, and it's just, I, in my, in my experiences, it's just not 00:31:09.446 --> 00:31:14.086 something that you could find in, in, in a lot of different areas. 00:31:14.096 --> 00:31:19.036 I mean, you can, you can invest your money in, in the stock market, but you're not 00:31:19.036 --> 00:31:20.516 going to be screaming at a stock ticker. 00:31:20.906 --> 00:31:23.016 Maybe you are, but you know, most, most people aren't going to be 00:31:23.016 --> 00:31:25.806 screaming at a stock ticker like they are, you know, a horse race. 00:31:26.516 --> 00:31:30.006 You can go to sporting events and, you know, watch football or, or 00:31:30.016 --> 00:31:31.196 hockey or something like that. 00:31:31.196 --> 00:31:33.256 And you can get into the, into the game itself. 00:31:33.276 --> 00:31:38.976 But nothing in my opinion really kind of matches the, the sense of excitement. 00:31:39.116 --> 00:31:43.476 And, and knowing is that you're, you're a you're a participant in the sport. 00:31:43.476 --> 00:31:44.826 You're not just a spectator. 00:31:45.696 --> 00:31:46.596 I think really. 00:31:47.146 --> 00:31:48.636 Raises the bar, so to speak. 00:31:48.706 --> 00:31:51.896 And so I wanted to share that with some of my some of my colleagues and 00:31:51.896 --> 00:31:55.136 friends and give them the opportunity to do the same, and they might not 00:31:55.136 --> 00:31:59.376 necessarily have done the research or understand, you know, what it's like, 00:31:59.386 --> 00:32:00.966 you know, how to get into the game. 00:32:01.286 --> 00:32:06.936 So providing them a really easy entrance ramp with regard to participating letting 00:32:06.936 --> 00:32:08.486 them have that experience as well. 00:32:09.236 --> 00:32:13.956 And, you know, if they, if they feel that same level of excitement, then great. 00:32:14.211 --> 00:32:16.641 You know, they can, they can continue to you know, to. 00:32:17.166 --> 00:32:19.896 To purchase shares in, in in horses. 00:32:19.896 --> 00:32:21.966 And if they don't, that's, that's okay as well. 00:32:21.966 --> 00:32:24.006 They can, they can always step out. 00:32:24.016 --> 00:32:28.826 There's not a, a long, you know, everlasting commitment that they have. 00:32:28.826 --> 00:32:32.116 And, and to, to the large extent, you know, the folks that I've, I've 00:32:32.126 --> 00:32:36.886 brought into the partnership have, have been have been pretty optimistic. 00:32:37.026 --> 00:32:39.886 I think, I think they've, they've enjoyed the experience that they've had. 00:32:39.886 --> 00:32:42.076 And I generally do everything at cost. 00:32:42.076 --> 00:32:44.266 I'm not trying to make money off of a partnership. 00:32:44.376 --> 00:32:49.096 So whatever the actual charges that I see, I just pass them on to you 00:32:49.096 --> 00:32:52.596 know, to the different partners so that they're not feeling like they're 00:32:52.596 --> 00:32:55.206 getting, you know, having to pay a premium or anything like that. 00:32:55.226 --> 00:32:57.966 For me, it's just being able to share the experience and giving 00:32:57.966 --> 00:33:01.076 them that opportunity as opposed to, you know, me trying to make 00:33:01.076 --> 00:33:02.246 a dollar or two off of them. 00:33:02.396 --> 00:33:04.496 We let the performance on the racetrack decide if we're 00:33:04.496 --> 00:33:05.486 going to make money or not. 00:33:05.556 --> 00:33:09.686 And so it also makes, makes it more. 00:33:10.586 --> 00:33:14.596 Of me having a vested interest in the success of the horses in which 00:33:14.596 --> 00:33:19.056 they're owning because I'm also going to own a, you know, a good percentage 00:33:19.056 --> 00:33:20.326 of each of those horses as well. 00:33:21.116 --> 00:33:22.196 Rupert Isaacson: So it's a passion thing. 00:33:23.186 --> 00:33:24.376 Victor Bahna: It's definitely a passion thing. 00:33:24.376 --> 00:33:24.676 Yeah. 00:33:24.726 --> 00:33:25.016 Yeah. 00:33:25.096 --> 00:33:25.686 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:33:25.816 --> 00:33:29.786 And then let's talk a little bit more about passion and then let's go back 00:33:29.786 --> 00:33:32.036 to, to the thoroughbred industry. 00:33:32.216 --> 00:33:36.436 So you've now written a book and you've written a book about A darker side of 00:33:36.446 --> 00:33:40.816 the industry and also writing a book is a passionate process and you've self 00:33:40.816 --> 00:33:44.236 published it and that's not easy I've self published a book and I I know a little 00:33:44.236 --> 00:33:48.406 bit about what goes into that Tell me, you know, why did you decide to do that? 00:33:48.636 --> 00:33:49.896 How did you make it work? 00:33:50.006 --> 00:33:54.436 There'll be a lot of listeners there who are flirting with the 00:33:54.436 --> 00:33:59.896 idea of self publishing and each year the landscape on that, the 00:33:59.896 --> 00:34:01.326 geography on that, changes a bit. 00:34:01.366 --> 00:34:07.336 You know, the last time I did it was, I think, back in 2015 or 14 or so. 00:34:07.856 --> 00:34:09.436 And I know things have changed since then. 00:34:09.576 --> 00:34:11.516 So talk to us about your experience. 00:34:11.526 --> 00:34:12.516 Why did you decide to do it? 00:34:12.626 --> 00:34:17.766 How did you as a non writer get to a point where you could write a book, which is, 00:34:17.796 --> 00:34:19.496 is, it's picked up some very good reviews. 00:34:19.936 --> 00:34:23.436 And why did you choose the particular subject matter, the sort of darker side 00:34:23.436 --> 00:34:28.026 of the racing industry and thriller you know, talk, talk, talk us through the 00:34:28.026 --> 00:34:33.711 process, conception, reasons, publishing, how, how you found Figure that why did you 00:34:33.711 --> 00:34:35.451 publish the way you published and so on 00:34:37.701 --> 00:34:43.151 Victor Bahna: I was sitting on a beach one day and It was chatting with my wife 00:34:44.071 --> 00:34:51.471 And I was thinking about ways in which I can, what, what would be like the next 00:34:52.281 --> 00:34:53.851 kind of big project I would want to do. 00:34:54.141 --> 00:34:57.281 And it just was one of those lightbulb moments where we were just 00:34:57.281 --> 00:34:58.741 kind of batting around a few ideas. 00:34:58.741 --> 00:35:02.341 And, and I've been doing a fair amount of business writing at the time. 00:35:04.391 --> 00:35:08.541 And thought to myself, you know what, I think maybe I should write a book. 00:35:09.071 --> 00:35:14.511 And it was literally just this lightbulb moment where, I had not honestly really 00:35:14.611 --> 00:35:18.131 considered or thought about it, you know, up to that point, it was, it 00:35:18.131 --> 00:35:20.251 was literally just kind of hit me. 00:35:20.751 --> 00:35:25.561 And I was thinking, okay, well, if I write a book, what would it be about? 00:35:25.711 --> 00:35:28.591 Well, of course, it would have to be about horses because that's 00:35:28.641 --> 00:35:31.541 where I'm spending, you know, quite a bit of my time and energy. 00:35:31.561 --> 00:35:36.111 And so that, that really was the, the starting point. 00:35:36.111 --> 00:35:38.891 But what I, what it was, was bothering me. 00:35:39.521 --> 00:35:45.031 At that time, and this was probably 2016, maybe 2017, but what was really 00:35:45.031 --> 00:35:51.121 bugging me at that time was the, you mentioned the darker side, the excitement 00:35:51.121 --> 00:35:58.841 in the racing and the attention is all given to the horses that are racing. 00:35:59.931 --> 00:36:02.861 But there's a lot of horses that don't race anymore. 00:36:03.191 --> 00:36:08.191 And back then there were a lot of those horses that were, were being 00:36:08.201 --> 00:36:14.311 shuttled you know, in crowded vans up to from the U S at least up to Mexico 00:36:14.321 --> 00:36:16.451 or down to Mexico or up to Canada. 00:36:16.971 --> 00:36:20.161 And they were going to the slaughterhouse. 00:36:21.226 --> 00:36:25.226 And I, and it really bothered me that, you know, you can have, and I read the story 00:36:25.226 --> 00:36:28.766 of Ferdinand, I'm not sure how familiar you are with Ferdinand, but he was a 00:36:28.766 --> 00:36:31.346 Kentucky Derby winner back in the 80s. 00:36:31.376 --> 00:36:31.706 I'm not 00:36:31.706 --> 00:36:32.066 Rupert Isaacson: familiar. 00:36:32.066 --> 00:36:32.986 No, tell us. 00:36:33.136 --> 00:36:33.376 Victor Bahna: Yeah. 00:36:33.846 --> 00:36:34.036 Yeah. 00:36:34.036 --> 00:36:36.726 Ferdinand won the Kentucky Derby back in the 1980s. 00:36:37.316 --> 00:36:38.876 I don't know exactly which year it was. 00:36:39.826 --> 00:36:45.286 And he was sold as a stallion to a group in Japan. 00:36:46.466 --> 00:36:46.596 Yeah. 00:36:46.596 --> 00:36:46.996 This for us. 00:36:47.901 --> 00:36:53.001 One of the most prestigious race in the US he was very well regarded, 00:36:53.011 --> 00:36:56.831 you know, would, would have a very, you'd expect a very prosperous 00:36:56.831 --> 00:36:59.031 and, and successful stud career. 00:36:59.581 --> 00:37:02.421 Highest bidder was in Japan at the time, he ended up going 00:37:02.421 --> 00:37:04.321 to Stallion Farm in Japan. 00:37:05.311 --> 00:37:07.081 After he retired from racing. 00:37:08.071 --> 00:37:13.841 Apparently his prodigy was not very successful in, in, in large part. 00:37:13.961 --> 00:37:16.601 And he got sold to another farm in Japan. 00:37:17.331 --> 00:37:19.661 He ended up passing through a couple of different places. 00:37:21.171 --> 00:37:23.961 Ended up, actually he ended up in a slaughterhouse, actually. 00:37:24.011 --> 00:37:26.976 And was, was, you know. 00:37:27.406 --> 00:37:34.276 That was his end and after I don't know how old he was. 00:37:34.306 --> 00:37:38.366 I don't think he was that old probably somewhere between maybe he 00:37:38.366 --> 00:37:40.926 was like 12 or 15 or something Yeah, 00:37:40.926 --> 00:37:41.476 Rupert Isaacson: not old. 00:37:41.526 --> 00:37:42.476 Yeah midlife. 00:37:42.486 --> 00:37:42.706 No, 00:37:42.746 --> 00:37:43.986 Victor Bahna: no, definitely not old. 00:37:44.016 --> 00:37:47.886 And it was basically he was unsuccessful He passed through, 00:37:47.896 --> 00:37:49.486 you know multiple hands. 00:37:49.536 --> 00:37:55.826 And the last Group that got them decided that it was going to be best to, you 00:37:55.826 --> 00:37:58.576 know, send them to a slaughterhouse because they can get money for the 00:37:58.576 --> 00:38:01.266 pound for him, which is just amazing. 00:38:01.266 --> 00:38:05.176 So I thought to myself, you know, how does a horse like that, who wins 00:38:05.176 --> 00:38:06.736 the most prestigious race in the U. 00:38:06.736 --> 00:38:07.286 S. 00:38:07.356 --> 00:38:13.206 end up in a slaughterhouse and how can any horse that you may spend. 00:38:13.666 --> 00:38:18.616 You know, a couple hundred thousand dollars on or even more at some 00:38:18.616 --> 00:38:21.906 point in their career, you know, find themselves on a trailer heading 00:38:21.906 --> 00:38:25.196 to heading to a slaughterhouse and that really, really disturbed me. 00:38:25.206 --> 00:38:30.926 So, I thought to myself that would actually be a good story to, to write 00:38:30.926 --> 00:38:35.336 about and maybe expose a little bit more of what's going on, but doing 00:38:35.336 --> 00:38:37.846 it in a way that's not preaching. 00:38:37.946 --> 00:38:40.456 That's not trying to shame anybody, but more just. 00:38:41.146 --> 00:38:44.556 In the, in the, in the form of a narration and of a, of an interesting 00:38:44.556 --> 00:38:51.356 story I don't think people read novels to be scolded or to be 00:38:51.386 --> 00:38:51.686 Victor Bahna (2): you know, 00:38:52.156 --> 00:38:54.326 Victor Bahna: given a sermon, but I think, I think they're, they're 00:38:54.326 --> 00:38:56.526 reading novels because they want to be entertained and they want 00:38:56.536 --> 00:38:57.826 to they want to read a good story. 00:38:58.591 --> 00:39:01.711 And so that that's what I ended up doing was, was, you know, 00:39:02.051 --> 00:39:07.911 capturing that scenario with this horse whose name is Heliacal Star. 00:39:08.731 --> 00:39:13.951 And sort of working through those progressions of him being a a 00:39:13.951 --> 00:39:18.851 fancy yearling that gets sold for quite a bit of money at a, at an 00:39:18.861 --> 00:39:21.831 auction has a, has a racing career. 00:39:22.381 --> 00:39:26.971 But at some point that career ends and, you know, he finds himself in a. 00:39:27.721 --> 00:39:30.161 In a in a van going, going in the wrong way. 00:39:30.791 --> 00:39:33.421 And I don't want to give too much away of the story itself, but, but that, 00:39:33.431 --> 00:39:35.201 that really became the arc of the story. 00:39:35.421 --> 00:39:40.111 And then the, at first I was thinking I would write it from the horse's 00:39:40.111 --> 00:39:45.281 point of view, but after after a couple of starts on that, realize that that 00:39:45.281 --> 00:39:47.371 probably wasn't going to make much sense. 00:39:47.371 --> 00:39:50.801 So developed a few characters and. 00:39:51.116 --> 00:39:58.466 Was able to weave several subplots that I find are actually pretty 00:39:58.476 --> 00:40:01.186 interesting from a, from a reader's point of view that cover different 00:40:01.186 --> 00:40:02.846 areas of, of the racing business. 00:40:02.846 --> 00:40:08.186 And when I was doing some, some research on writing itself, you know, the, the, 00:40:08.186 --> 00:40:13.536 for one of the first lessons that that I picked up on was, You should write 00:40:13.576 --> 00:40:17.496 what you know don't, don't, you know, start out with, you know, a topic that 00:40:17.496 --> 00:40:22.646 you're familiar with and write what you know, and, and, and write the way 00:40:22.696 --> 00:40:28.956 you want to tell the story, you know, don't necessarily let other people 00:40:29.006 --> 00:40:33.686 or or styles, you know, necessarily change or alter what you want to say. 00:40:34.406 --> 00:40:36.306 And so that's what I, that's what I ended up doing. 00:40:36.366 --> 00:40:38.746 I probably took the really long road to doing this. 00:40:39.876 --> 00:40:45.946 Having not having any experience in publishing or writing a novel and 00:40:45.946 --> 00:40:50.776 I say the long road because I would write the first version of this and 00:40:50.776 --> 00:40:55.016 I would get to the, I finally got to the very ending of the story and I 00:40:55.016 --> 00:40:56.516 thought to myself, okay, this is great. 00:40:56.656 --> 00:40:57.586 You know, this looks good. 00:40:57.586 --> 00:40:59.626 This is the, you know, it's going to be the right length 00:41:00.566 --> 00:41:01.656 and I'd start rereading it. 00:41:01.676 --> 00:41:03.846 And I was thinking to myself, this is awful. 00:41:04.076 --> 00:41:04.826 This is terrible. 00:41:04.826 --> 00:41:08.956 And so I ended up going through multiple. 00:41:09.306 --> 00:41:15.076 Multiple iterations and started adding more depth with each iteration made, 00:41:15.136 --> 00:41:18.556 made things, you know, a lot more interesting from a reader perspective, 00:41:18.556 --> 00:41:22.386 you know, cut out things that just weren't moving the story forward added 00:41:22.426 --> 00:41:27.696 things that could move the story forward and after six years of doing this. 00:41:28.056 --> 00:41:31.946 They ended up finally getting to the point where I thought it had a readable version 00:41:31.946 --> 00:41:35.076 of the book and it actually all tied together and and that's when I started 00:41:35.096 --> 00:41:39.726 to, you know, solicit some feedback from from a couple of folks close folks that I 00:41:39.726 --> 00:41:44.466 know that I, I know are readers and, and then after they gave me their feedback and 00:41:44.466 --> 00:41:49.086 I made another rewrite of the book then I, then I started to shop for editors. 00:41:52.121 --> 00:41:56.871 Rupert Isaacson: Tell us quickly the plot and Then I want you to talk about the 00:41:56.871 --> 00:42:00.741 editing process because I think a lot of people when they want to write a book 00:42:02.871 --> 00:42:07.371 they don't realize that the success of the book is really predicated upon the 00:42:07.371 --> 00:42:13.511 editor or editors and that this has to be a sort of creative and happy marriage 00:42:13.816 --> 00:42:18.176 Between author and editors, but without a good editor, there is no book and 00:42:18.696 --> 00:42:20.686 without the good editor, there is no film. 00:42:20.716 --> 00:42:25.716 It's, it's, it's, call it killing babies but it's, it's a difficult process. 00:42:26.016 --> 00:42:32.386 So what's the plot of the book and how did the editors, how did you find the editors? 00:42:32.396 --> 00:42:35.846 How did the editors help you craft the book to its readable form? 00:42:36.836 --> 00:42:39.936 What it costs you to find, to, to employ those editors? 00:42:40.426 --> 00:42:42.636 And then how did you move it through to publishing? 00:42:42.706 --> 00:42:43.036 Mm-Hmm, 00:42:45.666 --> 00:42:49.056 . Victor Bahna: So about the book itself, it's the namesake iCal star. 00:42:49.206 --> 00:42:50.676 He is a, a race horse. 00:42:50.676 --> 00:42:50.856 Why 00:42:50.856 --> 00:42:51.546 Rupert Isaacson: iCal, by the way? 00:42:52.526 --> 00:42:55.946 Victor Bahna: I actually had a horse that was called iCal Rising. 00:42:56.236 --> 00:42:56.386 Okay. 00:42:56.386 --> 00:42:58.016 That I raced in in Maryland. 00:42:58.046 --> 00:43:03.086 And I, I thought the name was unique enough where it was gonna catch your eye. 00:43:03.416 --> 00:43:08.676 It's, it's not boring in terms of, and it, and it's something that most people 00:43:08.676 --> 00:43:11.296 don't necessarily know and therefore. 00:43:12.111 --> 00:43:15.801 I thought it would be a just something that would, would catch someone's eye. 00:43:16.161 --> 00:43:18.921 Rupert Isaacson: It means relating to or near to the sun, right? 00:43:18.951 --> 00:43:19.631 Heliacal. 00:43:20.181 --> 00:43:22.631 Yeah, it has to be the, yeah, 00:43:22.711 --> 00:43:27.051 Victor Bahna: the star Sirius and it, it being the first time it rises 00:43:27.561 --> 00:43:30.131 before the solstice, I believe. 00:43:30.661 --> 00:43:33.541 And I, and I knew that because of Palaeocal Rising, which 00:43:33.541 --> 00:43:37.281 was, which was effectively, you know, named after that event. 00:43:37.781 --> 00:43:40.001 And it actually goes back to to ancient Egypt. 00:43:40.141 --> 00:43:42.931 And so, yeah, I just, I just kind of liked the name and thought it was catchy 00:43:42.941 --> 00:43:47.071 and and just slightly altered it for the book because I didn't Want to use a name 00:43:47.071 --> 00:43:48.351 that had already been used in racing. 00:43:48.351 --> 00:43:51.351 So I also checked to see if anyone actually named a horse, a 00:43:51.351 --> 00:43:53.691 lyrical star with the jockey club. 00:43:53.691 --> 00:43:55.201 And there were none, none out there. 00:43:55.201 --> 00:43:57.321 So I was like, okay, I can, I can go with this book. 00:43:57.381 --> 00:43:57.851 No one's gonna. 00:43:59.216 --> 00:44:01.616 Chase me down for copyright infringes or anything like that. 00:44:02.116 --> 00:44:03.166 So yeah, he's a racehorse. 00:44:03.266 --> 00:44:09.506 And our main character Who is a former bookie? 00:44:11.016 --> 00:44:17.456 with organized crime He ends up taking a liking to this horse after 00:44:17.476 --> 00:44:22.086 he places a hunch bet on with him in a race at at Belmont Park one day. 00:44:23.246 --> 00:44:29.546 And so he gains this affinity for, for this racehorse because of the 00:44:29.546 --> 00:44:33.526 results of, of that particular race in which in which he made a wager. 00:44:34.076 --> 00:44:38.566 And so he's also someone that's been at the racetrack, you know, throughout his, 00:44:38.656 --> 00:44:44.206 his childhood and was brought there by his by his dad who has since been Deceased 00:44:44.556 --> 00:44:46.806 and he's feeling nostalgic one day. 00:44:46.816 --> 00:44:51.436 He goes to the racetrack and and kind of relives. 00:44:51.496 --> 00:44:52.956 I think it's on his dad's birthday. 00:44:52.956 --> 00:44:56.206 He relives sort of the experience that he had when he was younger. 00:44:56.786 --> 00:45:00.816 When he would go to the racetrack with his, with his dad, he gets on 00:45:00.816 --> 00:45:04.636 a, a tram ride that takes you through the backstretch of Belmont Park. 00:45:05.446 --> 00:45:10.186 And then when he's on the tram ride, he hears a call out to this horse, 00:45:10.226 --> 00:45:15.736 Heliacal Star, who happens to be in a, in a barn that they're passing. 00:45:16.396 --> 00:45:20.716 And on a whim, he decides that he's going to go take a look at this 00:45:20.716 --> 00:45:22.716 horse and say hello to him up close. 00:45:23.246 --> 00:45:26.406 And it's just one of those sort of unexplainable, hey, I just 00:45:26.406 --> 00:45:27.466 want to do this kind of thing. 00:45:28.466 --> 00:45:33.436 And as he approaches the shed row where the horse is, he stops just 00:45:33.436 --> 00:45:36.916 short of the shed row because he hears a conversation that's taking place. 00:45:38.086 --> 00:45:44.596 And it's a conversation that involves this particular racehorse. 00:45:44.816 --> 00:45:47.106 And he recognizes one of the voices. 00:45:47.496 --> 00:45:52.076 It actually paralyzes him because he recognizes his voice as one of his 00:45:52.076 --> 00:45:54.116 cohorts from his organized crime days. 00:45:55.276 --> 00:45:59.866 His, his relationship with the organized crime family ended very badly for him. 00:46:00.136 --> 00:46:04.766 And this is the last group of people he ever wants to deal with 00:46:04.766 --> 00:46:06.836 or, or interact with ever again. 00:46:07.906 --> 00:46:12.971 But the conversation is so disturbing to him that He now faces a bit of a moral 00:46:12.971 --> 00:46:18.311 dilemma in that does he actually say something and report what he's hearing 00:46:18.311 --> 00:46:24.281 to the authorities, which will likely be something that they find out about, 00:46:24.311 --> 00:46:30.531 and he would have to, he would have to confront his past which is something 00:46:30.531 --> 00:46:38.331 that he feels he's, he's moved past, you know, long ago, or does he just pretend 00:46:38.331 --> 00:46:42.441 that he never heard anything kind of go on with his, with his life as it is? 00:46:43.601 --> 00:46:44.401 And of course. 00:46:45.096 --> 00:46:48.946 He decides, you know, to do the right thing, you know, from a moral perspective, 00:46:48.976 --> 00:46:53.066 and the story, you know, picks up from there in terms of the the danger that 00:46:53.066 --> 00:46:57.676 he ends up winding himself or putting himself in as a result of of facing 00:46:57.676 --> 00:46:59.826 these, these mobsters once again. 00:47:01.516 --> 00:47:04.056 He does meet a trainer in, in the process. 00:47:05.616 --> 00:47:10.716 Somewhat happens chance running into this trainer and she and he develop a 00:47:10.716 --> 00:47:14.276 relationship as well, and she teaches him quite a bit about what happens 00:47:15.136 --> 00:47:16.656 on the backside of the racetrack. 00:47:16.696 --> 00:47:22.086 Cause he, he had always been in on the handicapping gambler, spectator side of 00:47:22.086 --> 00:47:27.236 things, and she kind of brings in a little bit inside the, the, the world of racing 00:47:27.256 --> 00:47:29.356 from a, from an insider perspective. 00:47:29.536 --> 00:47:30.976 So they, they end up. 00:47:31.656 --> 00:47:35.246 Bonding over you know, they, they both love horses, but they come at it 00:47:35.246 --> 00:47:36.606 from a slightly different perspective. 00:47:36.606 --> 00:47:40.316 And they form a relationship in the process as well. 00:47:41.546 --> 00:47:43.526 And then you get to see what happens to this racehorse. 00:47:43.526 --> 00:47:46.136 It's, you know, political star himself as he kind of goes through 00:47:46.136 --> 00:47:47.566 this progressions, as I mentioned. 00:47:48.586 --> 00:47:49.246 In his career, 00:47:51.876 --> 00:47:54.216 Rupert Isaacson: we don't want to give away the, plot too much, but it's a 00:47:54.216 --> 00:47:59.206 thriller, but the obvious question here is how much is organized crime involved. 00:48:00.916 --> 00:48:01.426 Interesting. 00:48:04.156 --> 00:48:06.176 Victor Bahna: Honestly, I don't know the answer to that question. 00:48:06.276 --> 00:48:08.756 I don't think it's as much as it used to be, but I wouldn't 00:48:08.756 --> 00:48:10.806 say it's, it's 0 percent either. 00:48:10.906 --> 00:48:12.936 It's, it's it's, it's hard to tell. 00:48:12.956 --> 00:48:14.676 I think, I think with the. 00:48:15.251 --> 00:48:18.761 With the internet these days there's more access to gambling. 00:48:18.901 --> 00:48:22.701 It's, it's interesting in the U S when I was, when I was younger 00:48:22.931 --> 00:48:25.021 gambling was quite the taboo. 00:48:25.571 --> 00:48:30.841 As the government started to figure out that they could earn a lot of money 00:48:30.851 --> 00:48:34.511 through things like lotteries and stuff like that, it became a little bit more. 00:48:35.471 --> 00:48:36.241 Acceptable. 00:48:37.366 --> 00:48:44.026 And nowadays, it's everywhere, it's, it's, it's, it's amazing in just, you know, in 00:48:44.186 --> 00:48:50.786 a matter of a couple of decades, it went from being this, this horrible addiction, 00:48:50.976 --> 00:48:53.976 and it's, and it could be a terrible addiction, a lot of people do suffer 00:48:53.976 --> 00:49:01.126 from, from, from gambling addiction, to a very accepted vice, let's call it, 00:49:01.286 --> 00:49:06.016 you know, with gambling on everything, you know, any sporting event in the U. 00:49:06.016 --> 00:49:06.256 S. 00:49:06.266 --> 00:49:07.191 is going to have it. 00:49:08.391 --> 00:49:12.031 gambling and easy access to it as well, you know, through the internet 00:49:12.051 --> 00:49:14.131 or, you know, casinos are everywhere. 00:49:14.961 --> 00:49:22.751 I, I think that fixing of games and fixing of, of races to say that it doesn't 00:49:22.751 --> 00:49:25.261 exist at all would probably be naive. 00:49:25.571 --> 00:49:30.031 But I, I, I honestly couldn't, couldn't give you an answer because I, I, well, 00:49:30.241 --> 00:49:33.441 Rupert Isaacson: it's an interesting thing because in the UK growing up So 00:49:33.441 --> 00:49:36.631 full disclosure, you know, thoroughbred industry was all around me growing up. 00:49:36.781 --> 00:49:37.901 And I'll go into that in a moment. 00:49:38.451 --> 00:49:41.676 But in the UK, of course, Betting is not a taboo. 00:49:41.886 --> 00:49:43.556 It's an accepted thing. 00:49:43.566 --> 00:49:46.496 There's betting shops, you know, on every high street, you 00:49:46.496 --> 00:49:47.916 know, several chains of them. 00:49:48.666 --> 00:49:51.966 And it's considered kind of almost like a fun family activity. 00:49:51.966 --> 00:49:54.536 You put a, you know, we call it having a flutter. 00:49:54.536 --> 00:49:56.306 And everyone puts something on the Grand National. 00:49:56.306 --> 00:50:00.386 Everyone puts something on the FA Cup final in football. 00:50:00.386 --> 00:50:01.506 Everyone will put something on. 00:50:01.516 --> 00:50:03.186 Is it going to be a white Christmas this year? 00:50:03.476 --> 00:50:06.621 You know, they'll, they'll, you know, Different shops will put on different 00:50:06.641 --> 00:50:10.141 odds and it's all very above the board and controlled by the government and taxed. 00:50:10.141 --> 00:50:13.001 And as you know, in in the racing industry, we have something called the 00:50:13.011 --> 00:50:17.371 tote, which is basically, you know, a government controlled betting thing 00:50:17.961 --> 00:50:21.871 where their rationale is a little bit like prostitution in Amsterdam. 00:50:21.901 --> 00:50:23.001 So look, it's going to go on. 00:50:23.001 --> 00:50:24.951 So we might as well control it. 00:50:24.961 --> 00:50:28.521 And, you know, Benefit from it and build roads out of it, which is, you 00:50:28.551 --> 00:50:33.271 know, relatively enlightened, but the there's also, as we know, there's, 00:50:33.271 --> 00:50:37.881 there's a lot of unofficial betting and that unofficial betting tends to have 00:50:37.881 --> 00:50:40.771 its connections to the organized crime. 00:50:41.171 --> 00:50:46.311 And it was interesting to me growing up because, I don't know 00:50:46.371 --> 00:50:48.671 if you're aware of this in the UK. 00:50:48.711 --> 00:50:51.791 You probably are because it exists on the east coast of the US as well. 00:50:52.131 --> 00:50:55.251 We have what are called hunt racers, which are all point to points, 00:50:56.131 --> 00:51:00.521 which are amateur racers, but they usually run on race tracks. 00:51:00.771 --> 00:51:03.941 And they look to the outside eyes, just like a regular racer, 00:51:03.941 --> 00:51:05.831 jump racers, steeplechasers. 00:51:06.751 --> 00:51:11.801 But they're run by hunts, packs of hounds as fundraising days, and they 00:51:11.801 --> 00:51:13.331 can raise a lot of money this way. 00:51:13.511 --> 00:51:17.561 And so there's a whole industry of sort of whole amateur industry, but it's 00:51:17.591 --> 00:51:22.661 basically professionalized a lot of money changes hands, but not as much 00:51:22.661 --> 00:51:24.341 as, you know, the, the top industry. 00:51:24.341 --> 00:51:28.231 And of course a lot of, there's a lot of home breeding for these point 00:51:28.231 --> 00:51:32.891 to point race horses, which are thoroughbreds, but also horses that 00:51:32.891 --> 00:51:34.481 have sort of trickled down through. 00:51:34.531 --> 00:51:40.721 Maybe not done Fantastically on the professional track might do very 00:51:40.721 --> 00:51:41.801 well on the point to point track. 00:51:42.151 --> 00:51:47.901 So Some horses from the racetrack find themselves a actually sort of second 00:51:47.901 --> 00:51:53.381 career point to pointing others are bred for it Definitely there was a kind of a 00:51:53.381 --> 00:51:58.886 rural mafia around this growing up and there were people you just didn't cross, 00:51:58.916 --> 00:52:02.806 you know, that there were people that were around and it was like in the village 00:52:02.806 --> 00:52:07.336 pubs and it's not, you know, people think about organized crime as you know, this. 00:52:08.591 --> 00:52:13.951 Urban thing and it's chaps in cheap Italian suits wasting each other, you 00:52:13.951 --> 00:52:19.391 know and it wasn't like that at all, but it was violent and You were aware that 00:52:19.401 --> 00:52:25.261 there was this edge and places you did not go but of course people would lay 00:52:25.261 --> 00:52:28.151 money with these people because as you said people who were either gambling 00:52:28.161 --> 00:52:33.041 addicts or Looking to make a faster buck or maybe these bookies would give 00:52:33.041 --> 00:52:40.336 them longer odds, you know um Chance for making more money Interestingly, I know 00:52:40.336 --> 00:52:45.086 one who went on actually to become quite a philanthropist later on in his life. 00:52:45.356 --> 00:52:49.536 But it, it, and a lot of these, these unofficial bookies were kind of math 00:52:49.536 --> 00:52:54.046 geniuses, oddly enough, who, but they could get financed, they could get 00:52:54.056 --> 00:52:57.156 backing from sort of local mafia people. 00:52:57.821 --> 00:53:03.231 It was it was what it was so but I think that that Side of things the racing is 00:53:03.231 --> 00:53:06.351 quite familiar with people because any anywhere there's gambling anywhere with 00:53:06.381 --> 00:53:09.731 money You're going to see this what of course is tragic is that you know, the 00:53:09.731 --> 00:53:14.311 horses are innocents in this and they have no Yeah, so if someone's going to 00:53:14.631 --> 00:53:17.511 break the leg of a horse for insurance reasons or something like that, that's 00:53:17.511 --> 00:53:21.851 yeah Yeah, and I think as you say that used to go on more than it perhaps 00:53:21.851 --> 00:53:25.331 does now But it was a thing growing up 00:53:26.191 --> 00:53:26.821 Victor Bahna: I agree. 00:53:26.831 --> 00:53:31.001 Yeah, I do think there was, there was, it was much more prevalent and maybe a 00:53:31.001 --> 00:53:35.451 little bit more obvious or less subtle back you know, back in the seventies or 00:53:35.451 --> 00:53:39.921 the eighties, I think that I think you're right whenever you've got money involved, 00:53:40.591 --> 00:53:44.771 whenever you have gambling involved, whenever you've got high stakes involved 00:53:44.881 --> 00:53:50.321 there's the propensity for cheating and and you know, you could call it fixing. 00:53:50.331 --> 00:53:50.951 You can call it. 00:53:52.911 --> 00:53:56.511 The way in which you cheat then is, is. 00:53:57.021 --> 00:54:01.341 Okay, you can, and there are various ways, I think, in which you can, 00:54:01.671 --> 00:54:05.951 you can alter maybe the outcome of a race you might not be able to make it 00:54:05.951 --> 00:54:10.291 exact, but you can, you can pay off the participants, like you can pay off the 00:54:10.291 --> 00:54:14.201 referees in a, in a in a sporting event, not to make certain calls or to make 00:54:14.201 --> 00:54:16.321 certain calls, you can, you can pay off. 00:54:17.226 --> 00:54:20.886 You know, a rider to to race harder, not to race hard. 00:54:20.996 --> 00:54:23.606 Usually it's easier to get them not to race harder than it is to 00:54:23.606 --> 00:54:26.566 race hard because, you know, it's easier to lose than it is to win. 00:54:27.666 --> 00:54:33.936 And so if you can find a race with, let's say, 8 horses and you've got. 00:54:34.281 --> 00:54:38.631 You know, seven of the riders all running to lose that you're going to figure out 00:54:38.631 --> 00:54:40.841 who's gonna who's going to win that race. 00:54:40.881 --> 00:54:42.391 So that, that could be one way of doing it. 00:54:42.431 --> 00:54:48.931 You know, another way would be to get into medications and again, back in the, 00:54:49.101 --> 00:54:49.441 Victor Bahna (2): you know, 00:54:49.821 --> 00:54:53.571 Victor Bahna: 70s or 80s, maybe the scrutiny and the number of 00:54:54.161 --> 00:54:57.551 drug tests that were being done are, are, you know, miniscule 00:54:57.561 --> 00:54:58.911 compared to what we're doing today. 00:54:58.921 --> 00:55:02.611 I mean, they're a lot more thorough in terms of the urine test and making 00:55:02.611 --> 00:55:05.821 sure, you know, we're checking all of their, their blood samples and so 00:55:05.821 --> 00:55:09.071 forth after a raise, but there are still, there are still loopholes. 00:55:09.071 --> 00:55:14.201 And if somebody wants to, you know, really bend the rules, you know, they 00:55:14.201 --> 00:55:20.021 could probably do something that goes You know, that goes under the under 00:55:20.021 --> 00:55:24.831 the radar, so to speak, again, I don't think it's done nearly as much as it 00:55:24.851 --> 00:55:29.251 would have been in the past because you have a lot more activism today. 00:55:30.001 --> 00:55:32.171 You have a lot more awareness of some of these things. 00:55:32.181 --> 00:55:33.241 There's a lot more testing. 00:55:33.251 --> 00:55:36.941 There's more regulations, but I, again, I would say it's naive to think that, you 00:55:36.941 --> 00:55:41.721 know, there aren't some out there that are trying to bend or break the rules to 00:55:41.771 --> 00:55:43.991 you know, make things work in their favor. 00:55:44.251 --> 00:55:48.441 My, my experience with People on the backstretch has been I would 00:55:48.441 --> 00:55:50.221 just call overwhelmingly positive. 00:55:50.281 --> 00:55:54.001 And I think, I think there's some self policing that's being done. 00:55:54.031 --> 00:55:58.011 I also think there's a little bit of the, we don't want to rat on our friends. 00:55:58.366 --> 00:56:01.316 Kind of mentality as well that happens. 00:56:02.006 --> 00:56:07.416 But I think the overwhelming number of people are honest on the backstretch. 00:56:07.416 --> 00:56:10.076 I think they do deeply care about the racehorses. 00:56:10.116 --> 00:56:15.646 It is the minority and the few bad actors that tend to give the 00:56:15.716 --> 00:56:18.386 industry at, at large, sort of a bad. 00:56:18.706 --> 00:56:19.976 Reputation at times. 00:56:20.106 --> 00:56:24.586 And I think it's important if we can keep a level playing field for, for all of 00:56:24.596 --> 00:56:29.236 the participants, you know, if you feel like you're up against a person that is 00:56:29.236 --> 00:56:35.276 suspicious or has been under, you know, under suspicion and their horse tends 00:56:35.276 --> 00:56:39.826 to run a lot better than you think it should, you know, you're going to start 00:56:39.856 --> 00:56:42.566 asking yourself the question, you know, is the, is the playing field really 00:56:42.566 --> 00:56:49.881 level or, you know, do I have to might be bending or cheating on the rules. 00:56:50.041 --> 00:56:53.351 So it's, it's a, it's a hard, it's a hard one though, because you just, 00:56:53.926 --> 00:56:57.866 You just don't know and you just hope that people are, for the most part, 00:56:57.866 --> 00:56:59.226 going to, going to do the right thing. 00:56:59.276 --> 00:57:00.886 I know the people that I associate with. 00:57:01.386 --> 00:57:02.796 I see every vet bill. 00:57:02.916 --> 00:57:04.826 I get, I go down to the backstretch. 00:57:04.886 --> 00:57:05.966 I watch them train. 00:57:06.006 --> 00:57:10.966 I speak regularly with with, with the people that I entrust with my horses. 00:57:11.036 --> 00:57:14.876 And and I'm, I'm very confident that they are They're doing the right thing. 00:57:14.946 --> 00:57:19.876 If there's an issue with the horse, they'll immediately call me and, and 00:57:19.876 --> 00:57:24.016 we'll back off, we're not gonna, we're not gonna push, we're not gonna, we're 00:57:24.016 --> 00:57:25.986 not going to do things that are unnatural. 00:57:26.106 --> 00:57:31.226 And you know, if, if a horse can't compete, we're going to try to find 00:57:31.226 --> 00:57:34.386 a level where they can compete as opposed to, Hey, let's jack up the 00:57:34.386 --> 00:57:37.401 source on, you know, some medication that will make him, You know, a 00:57:37.411 --> 00:57:38.711 better resource than he should be. 00:57:38.731 --> 00:57:42.061 So, but again, a lot of it depends on who you're working with. 00:57:42.081 --> 00:57:46.211 A lot of it depends upon, you know, what, what kind of exposure you're having. 00:57:46.461 --> 00:57:49.481 And you got to keep your eyes open, in my opinion, and associate 00:57:49.481 --> 00:57:50.371 yourself with the good people. 00:57:51.181 --> 00:57:51.571 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:57:51.601 --> 00:57:54.611 I mean, so that's one side of it for sure. 00:57:54.661 --> 00:57:58.241 The other, of course, difficult side, and this is a side, again, that's well 00:57:58.241 --> 00:58:02.111 known to me is, as you say, what happens to the horses after their careers, but. 00:58:02.771 --> 00:58:08.891 So, it's a use them up, spit them out thing, meaning that, you know, millions 00:58:08.891 --> 00:58:12.651 and millions of racehorses get bred every year over the, across the world. 00:58:13.231 --> 00:58:16.261 And, obviously, there's always more losers than winners. 00:58:16.641 --> 00:58:22.211 So, horses that, you know, are sold for a lot of money as yearlings or 00:58:22.211 --> 00:58:26.741 two year olds, as you say, often, you know, by the age of five, are done. 00:58:27.381 --> 00:58:33.336 And, They've got 25 years of life ahead of them, and they might come 00:58:33.336 --> 00:58:39.296 out of that two years or five years that they're running with injuries 00:58:39.376 --> 00:58:41.176 almost, almost inevitably they will. 00:58:42.056 --> 00:58:45.596 Partly because they're too young to actually bear weight when 00:58:45.596 --> 00:58:47.426 they're, and, and to bear impact. 00:58:48.206 --> 00:58:49.336 Hard impact anyway. 00:58:50.936 --> 00:58:56.166 You know, in the riding horse world, not the racehorse world, you never 00:58:56.166 --> 00:58:58.176 start a horse before three or four. 00:58:58.656 --> 00:59:01.596 And you work them very, very gently, and you build the muscles, and 00:59:01.596 --> 00:59:02.876 you build the top line muscles. 00:59:03.016 --> 00:59:04.986 I mean, ideally you should, there are people who don't, 00:59:04.986 --> 00:59:06.336 but let's say that's the ideal. 00:59:06.856 --> 00:59:10.526 And in the racing industry, you know, they're racing at 18 months to two 00:59:10.526 --> 00:59:16.676 years old and, you know, sustaining lifetime, you know, impact injuries, 00:59:17.016 --> 00:59:18.436 which are then going to affect them. 00:59:18.446 --> 00:59:22.506 Now, all of that said, the thoroughbred is very tough, very resilient animal 00:59:22.886 --> 00:59:26.456 coming out of, you know, the desert steps coming out of Central Asia. 00:59:26.456 --> 00:59:30.676 So, and they love to run but there's no question they do it too early. 00:59:31.011 --> 00:59:37.771 And there's no question that the bones and the cartilage are impacted in ways that 00:59:37.871 --> 00:59:39.731 sometimes render the horses unrideable. 00:59:40.501 --> 00:59:44.231 And then, of course, the other problem is that if you take an 00:59:44.231 --> 00:59:45.861 adrenaline fueled animal that 00:59:48.221 --> 00:59:52.271 works off its amygdala, its fight flight freeze response, and you jack that up to 00:59:52.271 --> 00:59:55.831 the point where it's just always going to run, so its first response is to run, 00:59:56.251 --> 01:00:01.101 then that makes it a very difficult animal to put with the average rider because 01:00:01.111 --> 01:00:02.811 it's too fiery, it's too dangerous. 01:00:03.351 --> 01:00:10.101 Now, all of that said, Where I grew up in Leicestershire in the UK, all we did was 01:00:10.101 --> 01:00:15.151 take thoroughbreds off the track and rehab them into various types of sport horse. 01:00:15.751 --> 01:00:18.661 So we would turn them into fox hunting horses, we would turn them into 01:00:18.661 --> 01:00:23.196 showjumpers, we would turn them into eventers, and we would we would go 01:00:23.196 --> 01:00:27.116 up to it's what we did if what people did when they didn't have much money 01:00:27.146 --> 01:00:33.916 is you'd go to Doncaster sales or one of the big organized auctions that 01:00:33.916 --> 01:00:36.856 happen at the end of the steeplechase, particularly the jump racing. 01:00:36.966 --> 01:00:37.446 Yeah. 01:00:37.886 --> 01:00:43.416 And you see what you could pick up cheap that looked like it might be sound and you 01:00:43.556 --> 01:00:45.756 take a punt on it and you'd retrain them. 01:00:45.756 --> 01:00:49.246 And for the most part, I'd say all of those horses went on to. 01:00:49.876 --> 01:00:54.716 Good homes and good ends and the horses that I had and I kept were the ones we 01:00:54.716 --> 01:00:57.166 couldn't sell because they were too nuts. 01:00:57.416 --> 01:01:02.346 But I still made them work and hunted them and team chased them and invented 01:01:02.346 --> 01:01:05.786 them and stuff and retired them and they died, you know, in their thirties. 01:01:06.696 --> 01:01:08.376 But it's not always that good of an outcome. 01:01:08.586 --> 01:01:12.896 However I now work very much in the therapeutic riding field. 01:01:13.301 --> 01:01:16.641 And many people say that thoroughbreds are wrong for this. 01:01:17.251 --> 01:01:20.491 And we've just, we've disproved that. 01:01:20.551 --> 01:01:22.931 So we work primarily with autism. 01:01:22.931 --> 01:01:25.101 We work primarily with mental health. 01:01:25.461 --> 01:01:25.911 And. 01:01:27.266 --> 01:01:34.606 One of our best programs is a a non profit called Square Peg Foundation in 01:01:34.626 --> 01:01:39.706 Half Moon Bay, California, outside of San Francisco, which basically, more 01:01:39.706 --> 01:01:43.746 or less exclusively takes thoroughbreds off the track from the Thoroughbred 01:01:43.756 --> 01:01:49.986 Aftercare Alliance, and has turned them into absolutely fantastic therapy horses 01:01:50.266 --> 01:01:52.176 now has two campuses in California. 01:01:52.576 --> 01:01:55.736 And we have a couple of programs in Ireland, too. 01:01:55.736 --> 01:01:59.666 One in Kilkloon in just outside Dublin, near the Coolmore 01:02:00.156 --> 01:02:02.066 Stud, which is a famous stud. 01:02:02.166 --> 01:02:06.576 And another down in a place called the Skinnet in County Limerick. 01:02:06.876 --> 01:02:14.656 And again, we've managed to rehab, retrain many horses off the track for this job. 01:02:15.086 --> 01:02:18.196 And they, their sensitivity is 01:02:20.366 --> 01:02:21.486 very well matched. 01:02:21.486 --> 01:02:25.686 We find actually with the acute sensitivity, the sensory sensitivity 01:02:26.236 --> 01:02:27.596 of people on the spectrum. 01:02:27.746 --> 01:02:30.046 And now we've moved into working. 01:02:30.556 --> 01:02:33.946 Very much with adults with trauma with the U. 01:02:33.946 --> 01:02:34.106 S. 01:02:34.106 --> 01:02:38.506 Air Force, with the Bundeswehr, which is the German Army I live in Germany now, 01:02:38.986 --> 01:02:40.826 and the Dutch Defense Force, and so on. 01:02:40.826 --> 01:02:44.226 Again, we find thoroughbreds are very, very good at this work, but 01:02:44.686 --> 01:02:46.626 what is lacking at this point? 01:02:47.126 --> 01:02:49.906 It seems, is any really 01:02:52.606 --> 01:02:59.406 coherently, let's say, credible effort from the racing industry as 01:02:59.406 --> 01:03:06.896 a whole to really back the work that all the pioneers are doing privately 01:03:07.496 --> 01:03:10.091 to mop up the dregs of the industry? 01:03:10.561 --> 01:03:14.341 Dirty work and the mess and the waste of the industry itself. 01:03:14.421 --> 01:03:16.591 We also have a great place in Japan, by the way. 01:03:16.691 --> 01:03:19.721 Just outside Tokyo, which again uses mostly horses 01:03:20.011 --> 01:03:22.251 called it's called Equitopia. 01:03:23.641 --> 01:03:27.931 It's worth looking up and the, the husband of the vet who runs it is actually 01:03:27.931 --> 01:03:29.831 a very prominent trainer in Japan. 01:03:30.051 --> 01:03:35.641 So that's Square peg foundation in California Stewart's care 01:03:35.761 --> 01:03:40.161 and in outside Dublin and St. 01:03:40.161 --> 01:03:45.351 Joseph's Foundation in Charleville County Court, but their farm is actually over 01:03:45.361 --> 01:03:50.511 the border in Limerick, and Equitopia in Japan, all using thoroughbreds. 01:03:51.291 --> 01:03:53.441 I know there's more out there, these are just the ones that 01:03:53.561 --> 01:03:55.221 we happen to be involved with. 01:03:55.641 --> 01:04:00.361 But what we see is that, although I think organizations Aftercare 01:04:00.361 --> 01:04:05.141 Alliance get behind them and give grants to these organizations, the 01:04:05.141 --> 01:04:09.361 thoroughbred industry, with all its money And it has a lot of money. 01:04:09.541 --> 01:04:10.401 Does not. 01:04:10.801 --> 01:04:17.351 So I'm calling bullshit on the desire from the industry to really do the right thing. 01:04:18.021 --> 01:04:23.731 Because I think we'd see a slightly different picture if that were true. 01:04:24.251 --> 01:04:29.881 I think they do rely upon good hearted individuals and non profits 01:04:30.171 --> 01:04:33.411 to come in and pick up the pieces. 01:04:34.381 --> 01:04:37.561 But really, the Jockey Club has so much money. 01:04:38.921 --> 01:04:46.351 It could be seen to look after the animals that it purports 01:04:46.351 --> 01:04:47.831 to be so passionate about. 01:04:49.731 --> 01:04:52.821 Much, much more from sort of birth to death. 01:04:53.531 --> 01:04:54.431 Yet it does not. 01:04:57.181 --> 01:04:58.031 Why doesn't it? 01:04:59.611 --> 01:05:00.541 How might it? 01:05:00.981 --> 01:05:03.091 And how can we be a force for change with that? 01:05:03.981 --> 01:05:04.351 Victor Bahna: Yeah. 01:05:04.601 --> 01:05:08.751 See, you, you covered a lot of ground and it's important stuff. 01:05:09.701 --> 01:05:14.391 So I'll give you my, my perspective on, on this because I think to 01:05:14.391 --> 01:05:19.631 a large extent, my, my thought process is not very different than, 01:05:19.771 --> 01:05:21.091 than what you just referenced. 01:05:21.591 --> 01:05:22.006 It's. 01:05:22.376 --> 01:05:24.146 As I mentioned earlier, it was, it was 01:05:24.176 --> 01:05:24.996 Rupert Isaacson: just, don't get me wrong. 01:05:24.996 --> 01:05:30.296 I'm not anti racing and I know that the horses, I'm not, yeah, 01:05:30.296 --> 01:05:31.306 Victor Bahna: I'm very much in, 01:05:31.356 --> 01:05:32.986 Rupert Isaacson: we just need to look after the animals, 01:05:33.206 --> 01:05:37.686 Victor Bahna: but, but, but one of my inspirations for writing this book was 01:05:37.696 --> 01:05:41.856 to bring more attention to the, the very topic that you just referenced. 01:05:41.856 --> 01:05:49.016 And I will say that the racing industry, in my opinion, this is my opinion. 01:05:49.266 --> 01:05:51.026 Has a hard time getting out of its own way. 01:05:51.026 --> 01:05:51.726 Sometimes. 01:05:51.771 --> 01:05:59.861 I mean, there's a, there's a new law that was passed or regulatory 01:05:59.901 --> 01:06:02.411 body that was formed in the U. 01:06:02.411 --> 01:06:06.051 S., you know, called the Horse Racing Integrity and Safety Act. 01:06:07.081 --> 01:06:10.131 And the entire reason for having the government get involved in 01:06:10.151 --> 01:06:14.681 regulating the horse business or the racing business very specifically 01:06:14.691 --> 01:06:18.171 is because the racing business couldn't figure this out on their own. 01:06:19.586 --> 01:06:24.796 It's like, guys, wake up and look, look, what's going on around you. 01:06:25.736 --> 01:06:28.656 And quite frankly, the racing business is. 01:06:30.331 --> 01:06:32.731 It's competing with other sports in the U. 01:06:32.731 --> 01:06:33.191 S. 01:06:33.241 --> 01:06:36.601 and it's losing that fight because, you know, people are watching 01:06:36.621 --> 01:06:38.391 and gambling on football, U. 01:06:38.391 --> 01:06:38.531 S. 01:06:38.531 --> 01:06:39.051 football. 01:06:40.151 --> 01:06:44.661 They're, they're going to the casinos that are everywhere now. 01:06:44.931 --> 01:06:45.921 It's hard. 01:06:46.371 --> 01:06:51.011 for a handicapper to predict who's going to win a horse race. 01:06:51.801 --> 01:06:54.881 It's, it's hard to understand all of the different exotic 01:06:55.061 --> 01:06:56.751 wagers that you have to make. 01:06:56.871 --> 01:07:02.451 Exact the boxes and triples and super effectors and daily doubles 01:07:02.451 --> 01:07:03.971 and pick threes and so forth. 01:07:03.981 --> 01:07:06.631 It's, you gotta kind of know that stuff. 01:07:06.851 --> 01:07:12.531 You're not just going to walk in and You know, be able to just pick 01:07:12.531 --> 01:07:13.991 them out of a hat necessarily. 01:07:14.621 --> 01:07:19.191 But if you're a football fan or a baseball fan or a hockey fan, and you're 01:07:19.191 --> 01:07:24.911 following different teams, making a bet on a, on a, on a game is very easy to do. 01:07:24.951 --> 01:07:27.051 You don't have to put a lot of thinking or thought into it. 01:07:27.051 --> 01:07:28.711 You just do it more intuitively. 01:07:29.221 --> 01:07:30.991 So that competition is there. 01:07:31.701 --> 01:07:35.261 And I'm bringing this up because it's just. 01:07:35.736 --> 01:07:40.296 The horse business itself, the racing business itself has got to 01:07:40.296 --> 01:07:46.226 figure out how they're going to stay competitive in the marketplace. 01:07:46.306 --> 01:07:50.476 And one of the areas that they can do a lot of good for themselves. 01:07:50.846 --> 01:07:56.336 Would be to be much more active in promoting the aftercare of these 01:07:56.336 --> 01:08:00.986 horses and being much more active in Showing that hey, we're not just 01:08:00.986 --> 01:08:06.196 about the race itself We're about the whole life cycle of the racehorse. 01:08:07.026 --> 01:08:08.876 And yes, you've got a hot blood. 01:08:08.926 --> 01:08:16.656 You've you've got a a very high strung animal who is going to be very flighty 01:08:17.266 --> 01:08:20.466 but the stories that you're referencing and this the work that you're doing You 01:08:21.271 --> 01:08:24.991 And being able to get that much more publicized and saying, Hey, you know what, 01:08:25.761 --> 01:08:33.381 you might see a, a, a very athletic high strung, fast athlete on the racetrack, 01:08:34.211 --> 01:08:38.231 but that same athlete is going to be very kind and very gentle once they're 01:08:38.231 --> 01:08:44.761 retrained and they're going to have such a value to the community after, you know, 01:08:44.871 --> 01:08:46.931 after they're done with their careers. 01:08:48.396 --> 01:08:50.576 And we have to get that word out a lot more. 01:08:50.656 --> 01:08:55.086 And, and yes, you know, grassroots and private organizations 01:08:55.896 --> 01:08:57.026 are certainly helping. 01:08:57.156 --> 01:08:58.956 And social media is certainly helping. 01:08:59.146 --> 01:09:03.646 And we are seeing a trickle, I'll call it, from, from the racing business. 01:09:03.646 --> 01:09:07.456 Like we're donating certain, a few dollars, you know, per start 01:09:07.466 --> 01:09:11.326 to aftercare foundations that are sponsored by the various racetracks. 01:09:11.326 --> 01:09:16.116 And they're doing a little bit more marketing and promotion about some of the 01:09:16.521 --> 01:09:21.591 some of the aftercare that they're doing it's a start, but we've got to do a lot 01:09:21.591 --> 01:09:26.001 more in the space and the and just think of the exposure that the business would 01:09:26.001 --> 01:09:34.881 get if they could demonstrate that, yeah, once the horses are over, they're being 01:09:34.881 --> 01:09:39.181 taken care of because we're making sure that you know, that the owners that we're 01:09:39.181 --> 01:09:42.841 holding the owners responsible for what happens to those horses and, and, and 01:09:42.951 --> 01:09:48.531 to an extent they are if, you know, If a horse, you know, if there's a tattoo, 01:09:48.541 --> 01:09:52.521 which has now been replaced with digital chips, you know, if that horse ends 01:09:52.521 --> 01:09:59.741 up in an agricultural auction and goes into a, a kill pen with, you know, being 01:09:59.741 --> 01:10:06.241 purchased by a kill buyer, and that gets discovered, the owner of record, the last 01:10:06.241 --> 01:10:10.631 owner of record with that horse and the last trainer of record of that horse has 01:10:10.631 --> 01:10:15.681 to have to pay a pretty hefty fine and they get called out by the jockey club. 01:10:15.761 --> 01:10:16.951 I think it's the jockey club. 01:10:17.031 --> 01:10:21.441 , so there is some accountability, but I think that the racing business can do 01:10:21.441 --> 01:10:26.781 a lot more in terms of just promoting the opportunities and creating more 01:10:26.781 --> 01:10:30.101 awareness and, and being more active and supporting that because you're right. 01:10:30.101 --> 01:10:31.361 There's a ton of money. 01:10:32.001 --> 01:10:33.451 If you ever go to a Keeneland auction. 01:10:35.491 --> 01:10:37.471 I have worked at the Keeneland auctions. 01:10:38.311 --> 01:10:38.541 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:10:38.771 --> 01:10:43.061 In one of my first jobs under the table illegally in the USA training 01:10:43.071 --> 01:10:48.721 horses, I've shown thoroughbreds in the auctioneers ring at Keeneland. 01:10:49.251 --> 01:10:49.941 And it's interesting. 01:10:49.941 --> 01:10:53.731 I mean, it's a hard business run by hard people. 01:10:54.231 --> 01:10:57.631 There's not much humanity in the treatment of the people, 01:10:57.631 --> 01:10:58.761 in the treatment of the horses. 01:10:58.761 --> 01:11:02.136 It, I mean, The horses are well looked after to the degree that they're 01:11:02.136 --> 01:11:04.036 well fed and cleaned and cared for. 01:11:04.056 --> 01:11:04.286 But 01:11:04.876 --> 01:11:07.226 Victor Bahna: I bet the horses are probably better cared for than the people. 01:11:07.236 --> 01:11:07.476 Well, 01:11:07.476 --> 01:11:08.526 Rupert Isaacson: indeed, indeed. 01:11:08.666 --> 01:11:11.666 And for all we English and Irish boys that were there under the 01:11:11.666 --> 01:11:14.006 table taking the hard knocks. 01:11:14.436 --> 01:11:18.536 You know, for any one of us, there were 10 Mexicans who were, 01:11:18.746 --> 01:11:20.426 you know, taking it harder. 01:11:21.116 --> 01:11:27.616 So It was exploitative at the same time it provided us with many opportunities 01:11:27.616 --> 01:11:32.356 and for me as a, as a, you sort of accepted that exploitation to some 01:11:32.356 --> 01:11:36.286 degree and said, Okay, well, look, you know, I'm, I'm living on my wits 01:11:36.286 --> 01:11:37.806 here in the USA without a work permit. 01:11:37.806 --> 01:11:40.356 I could go home, you know, but here's an opportunity. 01:11:40.356 --> 01:11:41.186 So I will take it. 01:11:41.186 --> 01:11:42.876 I've got some horse knowledge, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. 01:11:43.176 --> 01:11:49.456 And then you get, you know, pretty heftily shoved around in a rather inhuman way. 01:11:49.746 --> 01:11:52.546 But at the same time, you kind of, you accepted the adventure. 01:11:52.566 --> 01:11:54.166 You were a young man, you know, you could. 01:11:54.336 --> 01:11:56.806 Sort of handle it, but you weren't going to stay there forever. 01:11:57.916 --> 01:12:02.306 But nonetheless, I think it was sort of indicative of the industry as a whole. 01:12:02.506 --> 01:12:04.456 That there was a, 01:12:07.046 --> 01:12:13.636 almost a sort of desire power play in that way, not confined to that industry. 01:12:14.116 --> 01:12:18.006 Of course, you find it in many things, but nonetheless, very, very prevalent there. 01:12:18.456 --> 01:12:22.636 So I think that, again, that's why I questioned the sincerity. 01:12:23.251 --> 01:12:25.811 of the Jockey Club or the rest of it. 01:12:25.861 --> 01:12:28.651 Victor Bahna: I think it almost doesn't matter anymore. 01:12:28.651 --> 01:12:34.281 I think it's going to become existential for this business to recognize the 01:12:34.281 --> 01:12:41.021 necessity for them to be more active in the aftercare of Thoroughbreds. 01:12:41.021 --> 01:12:42.561 And I think they're starting to get it. 01:12:42.571 --> 01:12:49.541 But I, I think there are two major inhibitors that are hard to ignore. 01:12:50.836 --> 01:12:54.356 The first one is the one I mentioned before is that the racing business seems 01:12:54.356 --> 01:12:56.266 to not be able to get out of its own way. 01:12:56.836 --> 01:13:00.186 They can't, it seems like you can't make a decision without, 01:13:01.806 --> 01:13:03.036 they just can't make decisions. 01:13:03.536 --> 01:13:07.966 And you would think that, that this horse racing and safety act integrity 01:13:07.966 --> 01:13:11.526 and safety act would have woken them up to the fact that Hey, maybe we 01:13:11.526 --> 01:13:15.656 should get our act together and, you know, make the need for government 01:13:15.656 --> 01:13:19.196 regulation obsolete because we can demonstrate that we're doing it ourselves. 01:13:19.636 --> 01:13:20.966 But what are they doing instead? 01:13:20.996 --> 01:13:24.696 They're fighting the, they're fighting the the, the regulatory 01:13:25.176 --> 01:13:26.206 effort that's going on. 01:13:26.626 --> 01:13:26.836 Yeah. 01:13:26.886 --> 01:13:28.746 They're trying to say it's illegal and you can't do this. 01:13:28.746 --> 01:13:33.666 And so instead of, you know, understanding the whole reason behind it, you 01:13:33.666 --> 01:13:35.286 know, they're, they're arguing it. 01:13:35.436 --> 01:13:40.526 And, you know, I, I can, I can see a lot of flaws in how it's being run 01:13:40.526 --> 01:13:42.526 and managed, but that's not the point. 01:13:42.726 --> 01:13:47.376 Point is you can get your shit together and now you're, you're, 01:13:47.386 --> 01:13:49.776 you're where you are because you created this mess yourself. 01:13:49.786 --> 01:13:54.556 So I think that's the first problem is, and I don't know where that's going. 01:13:54.556 --> 01:13:55.196 I really don't. 01:13:55.246 --> 01:13:55.476 That was 01:13:55.476 --> 01:13:55.816 Rupert Isaacson: my question. 01:13:55.836 --> 01:13:56.986 Is racing going to survive? 01:13:57.626 --> 01:13:58.566 Victor Bahna: I don't know. 01:13:58.616 --> 01:14:01.736 I think, I think it will survive. 01:14:02.536 --> 01:14:04.376 But I think it's going to have to change, I think. 01:14:04.376 --> 01:14:04.966 Rupert Isaacson: Will it shrink? 01:14:04.996 --> 01:14:06.086 What will it look like? 01:14:06.086 --> 01:14:06.606 It will shrink, 01:14:06.606 --> 01:14:06.806 Victor Bahna: yeah. 01:14:06.806 --> 01:14:07.826 I think it will shrink. 01:14:07.896 --> 01:14:14.896 I think, I think you're seeing, I think California right now is is struggling. 01:14:15.356 --> 01:14:15.856 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:14:16.396 --> 01:14:20.396 Victor Bahna: And it's one of the bigger racing venues in the US. 01:14:20.496 --> 01:14:23.406 Part of it is geographic because you're so far away from where 01:14:23.406 --> 01:14:24.916 all the other racetracks are. 01:14:25.791 --> 01:14:29.611 And as you know, you know, shipping a horse from east coast to west 01:14:29.611 --> 01:14:31.351 coast or vice versa is not, 01:14:31.751 --> 01:14:33.771 Is, is a an expensive venture. 01:14:33.771 --> 01:14:38.061 So, you're kind of on an island to some extent when you're, when you're out west. 01:14:38.191 --> 01:14:44.051 But part of it is just that the competition in the handle is, is reducing. 01:14:44.151 --> 01:14:50.241 And a lot of the players that were big horse fans, racing fans, People that 01:14:50.241 --> 01:14:53.671 would go to the racetracks, quite frankly, are getting old and they're dying off 01:14:53.671 --> 01:14:58.851 and the next generation is not coming up with the same enthusiasm for racing 01:14:58.911 --> 01:15:00.651 that the previous generations have had. 01:15:00.661 --> 01:15:05.631 So yeah, I do think there's some, I do think there's some awakening 01:15:05.631 --> 01:15:08.311 that's going to happen and I think that the industry will eventually 01:15:08.311 --> 01:15:11.081 figure it out, but it's going to probably take some time before they do. 01:15:11.601 --> 01:15:13.561 Rupert Isaacson: Do you think it's going to go back to being what it was 01:15:13.561 --> 01:15:15.551 originally, which is a sport of gentlemen? 01:15:15.801 --> 01:15:17.321 And and gentle people. 01:15:17.321 --> 01:15:21.421 What I mean by that is for those listeners that don't know the history 01:15:21.421 --> 01:15:26.001 of the thoroughbred horse they go back to a handful of stallions that 01:15:26.001 --> 01:15:32.391 were brought into England in the late 17th century by a handful of people 01:15:32.391 --> 01:15:41.191 who acquired horses from the Central Asian step through the Ottoman Empire. 01:15:42.076 --> 01:15:45.496 And to some degree from the Arabian world, also through the Ottoman 01:15:45.496 --> 01:15:50.556 Empire because of the wars that were going on between the Ottoman Empire 01:15:50.596 --> 01:15:52.226 and Central Europe at that time. 01:15:52.626 --> 01:15:55.746 A good example would be the Bayali Turk, which was, you know, 01:15:55.756 --> 01:15:57.336 a famous foundation stallion. 01:15:57.806 --> 01:16:03.266 Who was acquired by a man called Biley, who was an Anglo Irish cavalry officer 01:16:03.476 --> 01:16:09.086 who found himself at the siege of Vienna in 1680, where the Ottoman Empire 01:16:09.116 --> 01:16:14.056 pushed into central Europe and was busy about to kind of swallow it all up. 01:16:15.071 --> 01:16:18.691 The rest of Europe kind of went, Oh, shit, you know, we better temporarily 01:16:18.691 --> 01:16:22.741 stop fighting each other and come together to push this common enemy out so we 01:16:22.741 --> 01:16:23.961 can get back to fighting each other. 01:16:24.331 --> 01:16:27.631 And at the siege of Vienna, this man, Bilye, who was part of an Anglo 01:16:27.631 --> 01:16:32.271 Irish sort of adjunct semi mercenary regiment, cavalry regiment acquired 01:16:32.271 --> 01:16:33.991 this horse from, from the Turks. 01:16:33.991 --> 01:16:40.056 And legend doesn't really say whether it was bought, stolen, Spoil of 01:16:40.066 --> 01:16:43.656 battle what but what was very clear was when barley got hold of it. 01:16:43.666 --> 01:16:50.396 It was as fast as it was Maneuverable because of course a close order cavalry 01:16:50.396 --> 01:16:53.206 horse was not actually designed for speed. 01:16:53.216 --> 01:16:59.996 It was designed for agility and So this horse seemed to have both so he 01:17:00.476 --> 01:17:05.491 brings this horse home to a Ireland, actually, County Meath and instead 01:17:05.491 --> 01:17:07.681 of putting it at stud initially, he finds himself at the Battle of the 01:17:07.681 --> 01:17:12.121 Boyne, which is what decides whether Britain will be Protestant or Catholic. 01:17:12.131 --> 01:17:15.711 A big battle is fought there and he's, luckily for him, on the 01:17:15.711 --> 01:17:17.221 winning side, on the Protestant side. 01:17:17.621 --> 01:17:21.571 And at the end he does put the horse out to stud and it is one of the foundation 01:17:21.581 --> 01:17:26.271 horses of the, of the thoroughbreds and of the race, of the thoroughbred itself. 01:17:26.301 --> 01:17:30.176 And the reason I tell that story is because Where Thoroughbreds 01:17:30.176 --> 01:17:33.436 began, it was just sort of coteries of private individuals who were 01:17:33.446 --> 01:17:34.746 interested in this kind of thing. 01:17:35.016 --> 01:17:40.696 And then who ran races on open areas of ground, like Newmarket, like 01:17:40.726 --> 01:17:42.906 Lambourne, like places in Ireland. 01:17:42.906 --> 01:17:46.756 And then, of course, as soon as the colonies in America began, in 01:17:46.756 --> 01:17:49.606 Virginia, in New York, anywhere, you know, that had good pasture. 01:17:50.126 --> 01:17:53.896 And exported that along with fox hunting and all the other British stuff. 01:17:54.386 --> 01:17:57.446 And It's still there to this day, but it wasn't an industry. 01:17:57.586 --> 01:18:03.756 It was collections of private individuals who were enthusiasts and working 01:18:03.756 --> 01:18:08.366 with, you know, a handful by today's standards of horses, you know, a few 01:18:08.446 --> 01:18:12.656 hundreds or a few thousand horses sort of sprinkled over a few countries. 01:18:12.656 --> 01:18:14.176 And now of course it's grown into this bear mob. 01:18:14.676 --> 01:18:17.726 And it is, is that the problem is that it's become a victim of itself. 01:18:17.726 --> 01:18:21.106 And if it shrinks, is that maybe a good thing that it goes back to its roots 01:18:21.106 --> 01:18:23.096 in a way and that people like you. 01:18:23.391 --> 01:18:30.461 You know, unlikely techies with a passion for the thing, rather like Captain 01:18:30.461 --> 01:18:33.531 Biley back in the day, say, well, look, you know, we just love this horse and 01:18:33.821 --> 01:18:35.221 we sort of want to see what it can do. 01:18:35.221 --> 01:18:39.811 And, and then might it be easier to do the aftercare because you just don't 01:18:39.841 --> 01:18:41.681 have so many horses to, to deal with. 01:18:41.681 --> 01:18:44.221 And actually, is that not a tragedy, but maybe kind of a 01:18:44.221 --> 01:18:45.481 good thing at the end of the day? 01:18:45.491 --> 01:18:45.761 Yeah. 01:18:46.481 --> 01:18:47.941 Victor Bahna: I think I do think it will shrink. 01:18:47.981 --> 01:18:50.341 I think we're seeing shrinkage already. 01:18:50.361 --> 01:18:54.821 And even if you look at the breeding numbers for the last, Dozen or two dozen 01:18:54.821 --> 01:18:56.851 years, you could see them coming down. 01:18:57.401 --> 01:19:01.421 You know, year over year, they're, they're kind of stabilizing at this point, but, 01:19:01.531 --> 01:19:05.231 but they're definitely about half, maybe what they were, you know, 20 years ago. 01:19:05.531 --> 01:19:06.391 Already half. 01:19:06.491 --> 01:19:07.541 Rupert Isaacson: I mean, that's, that's big from, 01:19:07.571 --> 01:19:11.761 Victor Bahna: from maybe not quite half, but, but sizable decrease in the number 01:19:11.761 --> 01:19:14.011 of thoroughbreds that are bred every year. 01:19:14.011 --> 01:19:16.321 And I think it's just a reflection of the industry shrinking. 01:19:16.821 --> 01:19:22.216 I don't, I think we're going to get back to, to the gentlemen's sort of sport that 01:19:22.216 --> 01:19:23.796 it might have, might've been in the past. 01:19:23.796 --> 01:19:24.286 And I think, but is 01:19:24.286 --> 01:19:25.536 Rupert Isaacson: that not what you yourself are doing? 01:19:25.736 --> 01:19:28.166 Are you not a gentleman getting together with other gentlemen? 01:19:30.856 --> 01:19:31.596 It depends upon 01:19:31.596 --> 01:19:32.686 Victor Bahna: who you talk to, I suppose. 01:19:33.186 --> 01:19:36.896 But I would say that we are seeing interesting trends though. 01:19:36.956 --> 01:19:41.116 The syndicate is one of those trends that started Cott Campbell, I believe started 01:19:41.116 --> 01:19:44.176 that back in the 1980s, 90s here in the U. 01:19:44.176 --> 01:19:44.606 S. 01:19:44.666 --> 01:19:49.966 Now that's evolved into these very broad partnerships like myresource. 01:19:49.996 --> 01:19:54.501 com, in which you can have hundreds of, Owners of a particular racehorse, 01:19:54.521 --> 01:19:58.771 they put in a few hundred dollars and they get the emails and the updates and 01:19:58.771 --> 01:20:03.371 they get, and I think that's one way to maybe attract some new interest and 01:20:03.401 --> 01:20:10.581 ownership into the into the business, but I don't think, I don't think in general. 01:20:11.616 --> 01:20:16.076 We're going to go back whether it's racing or whether it's any organized sport. 01:20:16.106 --> 01:20:20.676 I mean, you could, you could look at any organized sport and say, it seemed 01:20:20.676 --> 01:20:27.416 a lot more pure, perhaps back in less technical, perhaps, you know, back in the, 01:20:27.496 --> 01:20:27.856 Victor Bahna (2): you know, 01:20:27.856 --> 01:20:31.836 Victor Bahna: 50, 60 years ago, whether it's baseball or soccer, 01:20:31.836 --> 01:20:35.976 football, what have you now, it's everything is just so technical. 01:20:36.026 --> 01:20:43.086 I go to a hockey game here in Seattle and the entire game is 01:20:43.126 --> 01:20:46.576 choreographed and I don't mean it from the play on the on the ice. 01:20:46.586 --> 01:20:49.426 I mean, it from between the face offs. 01:20:49.566 --> 01:20:51.256 I mean, in terms of the Yeah. 01:20:51.791 --> 01:20:55.491 The script that, you know, you, you're constantly being bombarded 01:20:55.491 --> 01:20:59.451 with with entertainment and sensory you know, activities. 01:21:00.251 --> 01:21:01.491 And that never used to be the case. 01:21:01.501 --> 01:21:04.821 I mean, you used to go to a, I used to go to a hockey game and watch a hockey game. 01:21:04.821 --> 01:21:07.941 I didn't have to be entertained outside of the, the game itself. 01:21:07.971 --> 01:21:10.951 But, you know, today we feel like we're force fed with all of this, 01:21:12.181 --> 01:21:15.061 you know, entertainment, so to speak, if they want to call it that. 01:21:15.131 --> 01:21:16.611 And to me, it's a little overload. 01:21:16.641 --> 01:21:19.986 I think it's, you know, It's not necessary, but that's what they're doing. 01:21:19.986 --> 01:21:22.926 They try to bring in and it's very scripted too. 01:21:22.926 --> 01:21:26.736 I mean, it's like, it's almost like you can go to any arena in the U S and you're 01:21:26.736 --> 01:21:28.266 almost going to get the same experience. 01:21:28.766 --> 01:21:31.506 Just different colors on the, on the, on the, on the shirts. 01:21:31.506 --> 01:21:32.316 And, you know, maybe 01:21:32.536 --> 01:21:32.796 Victor Bahna (2): the 01:21:32.986 --> 01:21:34.586 Victor Bahna: game itself might be a little bit different. 01:21:35.436 --> 01:21:36.716 And I think racing is the same. 01:21:36.716 --> 01:21:37.746 I think it's become. 01:21:38.036 --> 01:21:44.656 You know, very programmatic in a way it's become very commoditized in that sense. 01:21:44.756 --> 01:21:46.626 And I don't think you can go back. 01:21:46.626 --> 01:21:50.606 I don't think you can go back to organic once you've been commoditized. 01:21:50.606 --> 01:21:55.746 I think that's just you know, to use a cliche you know, once, you 01:21:55.746 --> 01:21:58.156 know, you can't put the horse back in the barn on this one. 01:21:58.156 --> 01:22:01.606 And so I think that's probably where we are with with the racing industry. 01:22:01.626 --> 01:22:05.196 Now it can evolve, you know, And I think that's where it needs to is, 01:22:05.266 --> 01:22:08.226 and especially in the aftercare, I think that's the biggest area for me 01:22:08.226 --> 01:22:11.656 where we can do a lot more awareness. 01:22:11.766 --> 01:22:15.666 I mentioned the industry itself having difficulty getting out of its own way, 01:22:15.666 --> 01:22:19.186 and I think whether it's the jockey club or the various racing jurisdictions, 01:22:19.186 --> 01:22:23.266 you know, having somebody really step up and show some leadership there 01:22:23.266 --> 01:22:26.456 would be, would be a welcome change. 01:22:27.186 --> 01:22:28.816 The other factor, though, I think that. 01:22:29.581 --> 01:22:35.121 We're facing, and I'm sure you're facing this in Europe too is just the cost of 01:22:35.171 --> 01:22:39.791 maintenance of a horse is, you know, and you're thinking about a horse that 01:22:39.791 --> 01:22:44.901 retires at five or six that might live to the 30, you know, you've got 25 01:22:44.931 --> 01:22:47.611 years of care and feeding of that horse. 01:22:48.381 --> 01:22:52.621 It's expensive and the amount of land that's available is shrinking too. 01:22:52.861 --> 01:22:55.861 You know, there's more development, there's more urbanization, 01:22:56.741 --> 01:23:02.066 there's less there's less farmland and there's less expertise. 01:23:02.666 --> 01:23:06.226 Where I live, finding a farrier is hard. 01:23:08.556 --> 01:23:10.006 I have one and he's a good one. 01:23:10.186 --> 01:23:13.436 I'm fortunate to have that, but you know, there's not like, you know, 01:23:14.306 --> 01:23:16.976 a Rolodex of farriers that I can go through and say, well, you know, 01:23:16.986 --> 01:23:19.786 if this one's not available, I have to, I can just schedule another one. 01:23:20.306 --> 01:23:24.876 That's just an example of the sort of changing landscape that we're 01:23:24.876 --> 01:23:26.506 seeing, you know, my farrier. 01:23:26.986 --> 01:23:30.536 I, I, I, I'll, you know, just on that story alone, you know, I, I 01:23:30.536 --> 01:23:31.976 hold my farrier appointments, like. 01:23:32.486 --> 01:23:35.826 These are the most unmovable appointments that I've got on my calendar. 01:23:36.896 --> 01:23:39.506 Rupert Isaacson: I've got this amazing farrier who's approaching retirement. 01:23:39.506 --> 01:23:42.306 And it's like, I'm just in total denial about it because it's, 01:23:42.306 --> 01:23:44.916 I can't imagine life beyond it. 01:23:45.386 --> 01:23:45.626 Yeah. 01:23:45.626 --> 01:23:45.856 And 01:23:45.856 --> 01:23:47.666 Victor Bahna: I know that if I, if I missed that appointment 01:23:47.666 --> 01:23:50.396 for whatever reason, it's like getting back on his calendar is 01:23:50.396 --> 01:23:51.936 going to be like near impossible. 01:23:51.936 --> 01:23:53.626 So it's like, I tell everybody by 01:23:53.626 --> 01:23:55.666 Rupert Isaacson: your, by your girlfriend or your boyfriend, you have to do this. 01:23:55.666 --> 01:23:55.806 Exactly. 01:23:55.806 --> 01:23:56.226 It's like, no, 01:23:56.226 --> 01:23:58.496 Victor Bahna: the farrier takes. 01:23:58.941 --> 01:24:00.611 Complete priority over everything else. 01:24:00.611 --> 01:24:03.631 So, but that's just an example. 01:24:03.631 --> 01:24:06.001 But yeah, the cost is, the cost is high. 01:24:06.001 --> 01:24:10.381 And, and I don't think that when a lot of owners, when they get involved 01:24:10.381 --> 01:24:14.091 in racing, they, and I, and I was of this case too, you know, you think 01:24:14.091 --> 01:24:16.966 about the racing, you think about the excitement, you think about the, you 01:24:16.966 --> 01:24:22.301 know, you have this dream of going to the Kentucky Derby and being the guy that's. 01:24:22.996 --> 01:24:26.086 holding the trophy one of these days and, and, you know, gaining all that 01:24:26.086 --> 01:24:29.816 glory, but you don't necessarily think about, Hey, I'm going to retire this 01:24:29.816 --> 01:24:32.926 horse one day, and I'm going to make sure he's on a farm and I'm going to 01:24:32.926 --> 01:24:37.606 be paying board rate for, for this horse for, you know, 25 or 30 years. 01:24:38.926 --> 01:24:42.356 It's not something you just generally start thinking about when you're making 01:24:42.356 --> 01:24:45.886 that purchase decision, you know If you're in if you're in Keeneland, and you're 01:24:45.906 --> 01:24:50.356 you're bidding Eighty ninety a hundred thousand dollars on the horse, you know, 01:24:50.416 --> 01:24:53.556 you're not thinking hmm What am I gonna do with the source after they're done 01:24:53.556 --> 01:24:54.866 racing you're thinking about which is 01:24:54.946 --> 01:24:55.816 Rupert Isaacson: so interesting, isn't it? 01:24:55.816 --> 01:24:59.916 Because everybody knows how long horses live, you know And so the 01:24:59.916 --> 01:25:04.446 person who buys that horse really is only thinking it's saying well This 01:25:04.446 --> 01:25:10.016 is a hundred thousand that I'm willing to spend and lose but the loss You 01:25:12.701 --> 01:25:14.451 They're thinking it's just my financial loss. 01:25:15.141 --> 01:25:16.641 Victor Bahna: That's right, they're thinking it's a financial loss 01:25:16.661 --> 01:25:18.891 and it's a three or four year investment is what they're thinking. 01:25:18.961 --> 01:25:19.711 Yeah, yeah. 01:25:20.071 --> 01:25:21.091 Not a thirty year investment. 01:25:21.121 --> 01:25:23.171 Rupert Isaacson: What happens to the horse the rest of the time. 01:25:23.811 --> 01:25:27.101 But I'm glad that you're, you know, drawing attention to this. 01:25:27.201 --> 01:25:30.071 And of course it's a, you know, it's a longer conversation. 01:25:30.366 --> 01:25:35.306 And it's not something one can solve in one podcast, but I think it's a 01:25:35.306 --> 01:25:38.606 Victor Bahna: hard conversation at that I mean, it's it's it's a hard reality 01:25:38.606 --> 01:25:41.266 that we have to confront in my opinion 01:25:41.386 --> 01:25:43.996 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, and it'll be interesting to see where it goes. 01:25:43.996 --> 01:25:47.786 I think you know, we're all involved in in this aftercare business but it's 01:25:47.786 --> 01:25:51.966 interesting that it's Us as individuals and small organizations really 01:25:52.466 --> 01:25:56.316 which brings me to actually another industry which has acquired a bit of 01:25:56.316 --> 01:25:58.236 a dark side of life and that's tech. 01:25:58.596 --> 01:26:04.506 So, you know, when, when the tech boom happened you know, it was the great thing 01:26:04.686 --> 01:26:08.316 and it is, I mean, look here at you and I on zoom, we wouldn't be able to do this. 01:26:08.726 --> 01:26:10.726 You wouldn't have been able to publish your book, you know, 01:26:10.736 --> 01:26:13.306 without so, so easily at any rate. 01:26:13.776 --> 01:26:15.776 It, so, you know, social media makes. 01:26:16.651 --> 01:26:21.611 So much possible and it's been really the big thing that's come out of tech 01:26:21.621 --> 01:26:30.321 except for AI and we know that Australia has just passed a law a groundbreaking 01:26:30.321 --> 01:26:35.511 law banning I don't know how they're going to enforce it but banning the 01:26:35.511 --> 01:26:37.841 use of social media for under 16s. 01:26:38.481 --> 01:26:42.846 That's a pretty good litmus test of the damage that's being done. 01:26:45.276 --> 01:26:50.966 I've got two younger kids now and it's very interesting to see how 01:26:50.966 --> 01:26:53.426 the impacts of social media begin. 01:26:53.976 --> 01:26:57.986 And to already now be thinking about how do I mitigate this? 01:26:58.316 --> 01:27:03.866 How do I battle this unseen demon that is so much bigger than me yet with 01:27:03.866 --> 01:27:05.506 which you cannot do without anymore? 01:27:06.576 --> 01:27:11.296 And, Full disclosure, yeah, in certain cases, I will absolutely go ahead 01:27:11.296 --> 01:27:12.986 and use some chat GPT here and there. 01:27:13.396 --> 01:27:16.556 Like everybody else, it's like having a secretary that you don't 01:27:16.556 --> 01:27:17.686 have to pay for, it's incredible. 01:27:17.976 --> 01:27:21.596 And at the same time, we know that they're busy trying to replace the 01:27:21.596 --> 01:27:27.916 human, and what we think of as AI is not what's coming, you know, and we have 01:27:27.916 --> 01:27:32.896 no idea really of what's coming, but we know it's going to be as fraught with 01:27:33.826 --> 01:27:36.496 the goods and the bads as everything else that humans have come up with. 01:27:37.146 --> 01:27:41.116 You're in the middle of the tech industry and you've been in there since 01:27:41.116 --> 01:27:44.126 it's earlies and you're still there. 01:27:44.666 --> 01:27:49.656 You're sitting there in, in, in Washington State, in Seattle, you know, 01:27:49.986 --> 01:27:53.636 people think of Silicon Valley, but Microsoft obviously and many other big 01:27:53.666 --> 01:27:55.206 tech companies are up there in Seattle. 01:27:57.376 --> 01:28:03.336 There's a bit of a parallel really between the the racing industry and the original 01:28:03.346 --> 01:28:10.286 sort of origins of the thoroughbred and tech, because it began, you know, with 01:28:11.476 --> 01:28:15.766 groups of nerds, you know, and I remember contemporaries of mine who were at 01:28:15.766 --> 01:28:21.301 university who were, you know, 57 now, and they were the computer science, you know, 01:28:22.341 --> 01:28:24.791 Geeks who then went on to rule the world. 01:28:25.291 --> 01:28:31.041 They were the princes of tomorrow Many of them became that and then they offered us 01:28:31.721 --> 01:28:35.841 Stuff beyond our wildest imaginations and we all took it, you know gladly and still 01:28:35.841 --> 01:28:41.651 do Yet this small league of gentlemen developing this technology whether it's 01:28:41.691 --> 01:28:46.341 the thoroughbred horse, you know, it Baboof became an industry rather quicker. 01:28:46.721 --> 01:28:47.601 And now here we are. 01:28:49.141 --> 01:28:56.101 You're still right there in it and where's this going for us? 01:28:56.751 --> 01:29:00.301 And what's the aftercare for us? 01:29:00.761 --> 01:29:08.141 The horses upon which the, the, the AI and the social media are 01:29:08.141 --> 01:29:11.431 being ridden, you know, we are, we are the horses we're being ridden. 01:29:11.831 --> 01:29:15.921 What, what, what, what's the, what's the prognosis from someone 01:29:15.921 --> 01:29:16.731 who's in the middle of it? 01:29:16.901 --> 01:29:18.211 And maybe is that your next novel? 01:29:19.346 --> 01:29:21.316 Victor Bahna: I don't know if it's my next novel. 01:29:21.396 --> 01:29:25.896 It's a, it's a very interesting subject and it's one we're all living 01:29:25.896 --> 01:29:27.806 through as, as, as you referenced. 01:29:27.826 --> 01:29:29.206 It's interesting the Australia thing. 01:29:29.206 --> 01:29:32.026 I don't, I don't think you can regulate morality. 01:29:32.086 --> 01:29:34.336 I think that's I think that's just the 01:29:34.336 --> 01:29:36.086 Rupert Isaacson: fact that it's come to this, that a, that a 01:29:36.086 --> 01:29:41.646 government is doing this is indicative of People going, oh shit. 01:29:41.916 --> 01:29:43.182 On a, on a big , it's a, 01:29:43.187 --> 01:29:47.887 Victor Bahna: Yeah, it's with, with every advance that we make, you know, 01:29:47.887 --> 01:29:52.837 there's, there's always that sort of paradox of, of, of good and bad. 01:29:53.107 --> 01:29:56.927 And, you know, too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. 01:29:56.927 --> 01:29:59.477 And, you know, I think we experience that, you know, quite a bit. 01:29:59.477 --> 01:30:03.462 And I think, I think it's just accelerated with with technology over the last. 01:30:04.187 --> 01:30:04.867 30 years. 01:30:05.907 --> 01:30:10.327 And the industry itself has, has transformed, I think, in, 01:30:10.647 --> 01:30:14.437 in the time that I, from when I started to, to where I am now and 01:30:14.487 --> 01:30:16.807 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, you were doing supply chain of floppy disks and 01:30:17.127 --> 01:30:19.627 Victor Bahna: yeah, we were, we were basically 01:30:19.837 --> 01:30:20.677 Rupert Isaacson: plastic packages. 01:30:20.707 --> 01:30:20.807 I 01:30:20.807 --> 01:30:24.137 Victor Bahna: remember being in a, in a in a warehouse and we were actually 01:30:24.707 --> 01:30:27.747 physically shrink wrapping the boxes ourselves and putting in the disks. 01:30:27.747 --> 01:30:32.037 And I think it was my, I think it was office 95 had. 01:30:32.092 --> 01:30:36.022 48 or 64 floppy disks to, to do an upgrade. 01:30:36.472 --> 01:30:37.422 Think about that today. 01:30:37.432 --> 01:30:38.362 It's like, what? 01:30:38.912 --> 01:30:42.642 And, and, you know, I, I might be, you know, from the last generation that, 01:30:42.692 --> 01:30:49.622 that grew up in, in a pre internet sort of world and, you know, I tell my kids 01:30:49.662 --> 01:30:56.322 and, you know, you know, I'm 59 myself and I tell my kids, I'm like I'm glad the 01:30:56.322 --> 01:31:01.262 internet wasn't around when I was your age because I might not want you to see 01:31:01.262 --> 01:31:02.832 what what might've happened back then. 01:31:02.932 --> 01:31:07.092 Nor do I necessarily want to remember, but it's, it's transformed a lot. 01:31:07.162 --> 01:31:14.332 And I don't know, I think, I think that within the industry itself, it's. 01:31:15.487 --> 01:31:19.017 Similar like you mentioned to the business of racing and horses 01:31:19.017 --> 01:31:20.717 in that it's very commoditized. 01:31:20.777 --> 01:31:24.567 It's become all about the next earnings report. 01:31:24.677 --> 01:31:28.037 It's all about how much revenue are we going to make? 01:31:28.037 --> 01:31:35.287 It's about how much, how much control can we, can we impart to some extent 01:31:35.287 --> 01:31:40.807 it's about clicks and eyeballs and our attention spans have been dramatically 01:31:40.807 --> 01:31:45.787 reduced as a result of all of the information overload that we're seeing. 01:31:45.797 --> 01:31:49.957 I mean, how many, how often are you just walking through your 01:31:49.957 --> 01:31:54.737 neighborhood and you see people with their heads in their phones? 01:31:54.737 --> 01:31:58.227 I mean, people aren't even, they're crossing the street 01:31:58.257 --> 01:31:59.957 without even looking up sometimes. 01:31:59.967 --> 01:32:06.037 And, and it's just like, we're, we're just like consumed by what, whatever that 01:32:06.037 --> 01:32:10.027 next click is, or I don't know if it's, if it's the dopamine rush or if it's 01:32:10.037 --> 01:32:12.947 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we're consumed by each other really, as we always have been. 01:32:13.447 --> 01:32:14.947 But it's just, as you say. 01:32:16.302 --> 01:32:18.282 On turbo fuel and accelerated and 01:32:18.872 --> 01:32:21.402 Victor Bahna: And it's just getting it's going to get faster and faster. 01:32:21.402 --> 01:32:27.652 And I think in a way I think this is where my thoroughbred is, has rescued 01:32:27.652 --> 01:32:31.832 me in some ways, because he brings me back to something that's real, 01:32:31.842 --> 01:32:35.412 something that I could touch and something that I can interact with. 01:32:35.412 --> 01:32:38.192 And there's no, there's no phone. 01:32:38.192 --> 01:32:41.242 I leave my phone in my truck when I go see him. 01:32:41.242 --> 01:32:42.462 I don't even want to be disturbed. 01:32:42.472 --> 01:32:44.082 You know, it's just it's just nature. 01:32:44.082 --> 01:32:47.332 And it's back to something that just. 01:32:47.902 --> 01:32:50.912 To me is just such a good counterbalance to being on the 01:32:50.912 --> 01:32:52.652 machine all, all, all day long. 01:32:53.182 --> 01:32:55.482 But it's a, it's a challenging space. 01:32:55.522 --> 01:32:57.972 The the industry has grown up fast. 01:32:58.022 --> 01:33:02.722 I mean, the valuation of tech companies today is, is. 01:33:03.152 --> 01:33:04.492 Mind boggling actually. 01:33:04.552 --> 01:33:08.222 You know, when you think of the market market cap, you think about the largest. 01:33:09.592 --> 01:33:13.422 Companies in the world by market cap and, you know, a lot of them are the tech 01:33:13.452 --> 01:33:16.592 ones, you know, Microsoft, Apple NVIDIA. 01:33:16.632 --> 01:33:20.832 I mean, these are the companies that are leading the way from a, from a valuation 01:33:20.832 --> 01:33:24.162 perspective and, and you got to think about, you know, the larger they get, 01:33:25.282 --> 01:33:29.182 you know, the more they get to sort of control the narrative, so to speak. 01:33:29.212 --> 01:33:32.982 But even that, I mean, I think it's out of, I don't think it's 01:33:33.252 --> 01:33:35.212 any entity or person or thing. 01:33:35.212 --> 01:33:35.912 I think it's kind of. 01:33:36.492 --> 01:33:39.712 It's on its own to this extent, you know, this is another example. 01:33:39.752 --> 01:33:41.782 I just don't think you put the horse back in the barn. 01:33:41.892 --> 01:33:42.652 Rupert Isaacson: No, for sure. 01:33:42.812 --> 01:33:43.482 It's just interesting. 01:33:44.302 --> 01:33:45.542 It's interesting to speculate. 01:33:45.992 --> 01:33:46.982 Where's it going to go? 01:33:47.022 --> 01:33:55.182 I was listening to a An investment guru on a podcast, the diary of a CEO podcast. 01:33:55.182 --> 01:33:56.812 And it's a, it's a good one. 01:33:56.842 --> 01:34:01.782 And he was, he's a crypto guru can try and find his name. 01:34:01.782 --> 01:34:04.782 If I get on my phone at my phone, which is of course sitting right by next 01:34:04.782 --> 01:34:05.882 to my hand while I'm talking to you. 01:34:06.392 --> 01:34:11.402 And He was saying, if you're going to invest in the next 01:34:11.402 --> 01:34:20.842 little while, you either invest in crypto and tech, or it's opposite. 01:34:21.132 --> 01:34:22.222 And this was really interesting. 01:34:22.802 --> 01:34:24.532 He said, or you invest in nature. 01:34:26.162 --> 01:34:32.582 And he pointed out that the more people become tech focused, the 01:34:32.582 --> 01:34:35.642 more the nature need becomes acute. 01:34:36.172 --> 01:34:42.822 Because nature can mean many things, but it's also a human, 01:34:42.962 --> 01:34:44.062 human interaction, right? 01:34:44.062 --> 01:34:47.302 So if you were going into the office in the old days, even if the office 01:34:47.302 --> 01:34:51.132 was shit and your boss was shit and it was a shit environment, it was a group 01:34:51.132 --> 01:34:53.842 of people and you were interacting with a group of people and you were on 01:34:53.842 --> 01:34:56.612 the subway going there and there were groups of people there and again, it was 01:34:56.702 --> 01:35:01.262 divorced from nature with a capital N, but the interactions were still there. 01:35:01.322 --> 01:35:04.632 And of course that's not gone away completely, but it's on its way out. 01:35:05.072 --> 01:35:08.302 And You think, well then with home office or being able to work 01:35:08.332 --> 01:35:09.472 remote and that sort of thing. 01:35:09.472 --> 01:35:10.072 Well, great, great. 01:35:10.102 --> 01:35:10.662 I'm now free. 01:35:10.662 --> 01:35:12.152 I'm free to do what? 01:35:12.402 --> 01:35:15.622 Sit in front of a screen for 14 hours and not interact with anybody. 01:35:16.652 --> 01:35:18.392 But nature is right outside my door. 01:35:19.152 --> 01:35:24.662 So, do I go and seek those experiences for my mental health or not? 01:35:25.242 --> 01:35:28.872 And, so his point was this is going to become more and more acute. 01:35:29.182 --> 01:35:33.552 There you are, within the tech industry, going and seeking for your mental 01:35:33.552 --> 01:35:37.637 health, which has Basically what this horse is giving you nature through 01:35:38.097 --> 01:35:44.057 four legs and this sentient being who is Extremely sensitive and is 01:35:44.097 --> 01:35:49.117 showing you all sorts of wonderful life lessons like the escalation and so but 01:35:49.117 --> 01:35:50.937 also just love just the relationship 01:35:50.987 --> 01:35:51.177 Victor Bahna: Yeah, 01:35:51.757 --> 01:35:54.667 Rupert Isaacson: and the passion and so on and the beauty 01:35:57.597 --> 01:36:00.967 Is that where the nexus of what you're doing? 01:36:01.642 --> 01:36:05.802 With tech and the racehorses and the aftercare can come together. 01:36:06.062 --> 01:36:07.412 Do we need to go and rescue? 01:36:07.432 --> 01:36:13.987 Burned out techies With sensitive horses, but but seriously, I mean Nature 01:36:14.277 --> 01:36:20.027 coming to the aid of what else could 01:36:20.127 --> 01:36:22.047 Victor Bahna: I think there is an option to 01:36:22.047 --> 01:36:23.527 Rupert Isaacson: cure us, but nature for this. 01:36:23.547 --> 01:36:23.847 Yeah, 01:36:24.587 --> 01:36:29.707 Victor Bahna: I think that it's interesting the reference that you 01:36:29.707 --> 01:36:36.037 gave because I agree with that is I think statistically we're seeing we're 01:36:36.037 --> 01:36:42.127 seeing higher level of medications, whether it's, you know, depression, 01:36:42.127 --> 01:36:48.347 anxiety or other we're seeing a higher number of a higher necessity and, and 01:36:48.347 --> 01:36:51.607 maybe it's not necessarily a higher necessity, but more recognition for the 01:36:51.607 --> 01:36:54.757 need for, for therapy in, in general. 01:36:54.927 --> 01:36:55.997 And I think that. 01:36:56.362 --> 01:37:01.682 We could look at the horses as a, a very rich and powerful source of that 01:37:01.682 --> 01:37:06.392 kind of, that kind of relief or therapy whether it's helping with with anxiety 01:37:06.392 --> 01:37:10.202 or depression or you know, providing some kind of therapy and it's not 01:37:10.202 --> 01:37:13.342 necessarily a silver bullet that's going to solve all problems, but, 01:37:13.502 --> 01:37:13.852 Victor Bahna (2): you know, 01:37:14.112 --> 01:37:16.572 Victor Bahna: I do think that there's something to be said for getting back to 01:37:16.572 --> 01:37:22.932 that and you know, burned out employees is not the tech industry works people hard. 01:37:22.942 --> 01:37:25.772 I mean, it's, it's, it's not for the faint of heart. 01:37:26.512 --> 01:37:30.492 It's become more and more competitive in the, in the years 01:37:30.492 --> 01:37:31.552 that I've been involved in it. 01:37:31.877 --> 01:37:33.437 It's become more specialized. 01:37:33.667 --> 01:37:37.917 The, the, the entry bars to get in are, are raised. 01:37:38.017 --> 01:37:42.777 So the point where the competition is, is significant and it's global. 01:37:43.357 --> 01:37:45.967 You know, when I started it was mostly within the U. 01:37:45.967 --> 01:37:48.357 S., but it's, it's entirely global now. 01:37:48.507 --> 01:37:53.267 You're going to find an engineering organization that's, that's going to be 01:37:53.427 --> 01:37:55.847 you know, very diverse in, in that sense. 01:37:55.957 --> 01:37:57.937 And it's, it's only. 01:37:58.792 --> 01:38:04.922 Increasing, I think the, or accelerating, you know, the progress of the industry 01:38:04.922 --> 01:38:09.562 itself, but it's also, you know, you're seeing a couple of dominant players 01:38:09.562 --> 01:38:12.732 come out of this and, and, you know, they're probably going to be the ones 01:38:12.732 --> 01:38:18.822 that dictate the future and is clearly one of the it's, in my opinion, it's 01:38:18.822 --> 01:38:22.392 just, it's just the next thing that the next revolution that we're going to see. 01:38:22.412 --> 01:38:23.912 And I don't know where it's going. 01:38:23.952 --> 01:38:26.862 I'm a little scared of it, but I also know that I've got a, I've got 01:38:26.862 --> 01:38:28.392 a horse I can run to if I need to. 01:38:28.392 --> 01:38:33.662 And You know, he'll he's not going to worry about about AI or you know, or 01:38:33.662 --> 01:38:35.042 the internet or anything like that. 01:38:35.062 --> 01:38:38.922 So, yeah, it's, it's, it's hard to predict though, and we are living through 01:38:38.922 --> 01:38:44.052 it, but I, I would, I would say, you know, if we can, if we can exploit the. 01:38:44.307 --> 01:38:48.237 Value that we gain from these from these horses and we could do that in 01:38:48.237 --> 01:38:51.457 a in a constructive and positive way and provide an outlet to folks that 01:38:51.457 --> 01:38:57.947 are have their head in their phone, you know, when every waking hour that 01:38:57.957 --> 01:39:02.097 to me would be something that we can, we can definitely I could, I could 01:39:02.097 --> 01:39:04.237 definitely see some opportunity there. 01:39:06.807 --> 01:39:09.687 Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's a lot of ground covered. 01:39:10.442 --> 01:39:10.942 Victor Bahna: Yeah. 01:39:12.522 --> 01:39:13.872 Rupert Isaacson: A rich and interesting life. 01:39:14.502 --> 01:39:16.902 I would say self actualized what's next for you. 01:39:16.992 --> 01:39:18.322 What are you, what are you going to do now? 01:39:18.992 --> 01:39:21.792 You're obviously producing thoroughbreds. 01:39:22.302 --> 01:39:25.462 I presume you're going to keep writing books and keep working in tech, but what's 01:39:25.462 --> 01:39:27.682 yeah, what's, what's your next thing? 01:39:28.472 --> 01:39:35.202 Victor Bahna: I would like to continue to learn more about this aftercare space. 01:39:35.782 --> 01:39:35.822 Yeah. 01:39:35.922 --> 01:39:39.002 I think if I'm going to throw myself into something that would probably 01:39:39.002 --> 01:39:43.082 be a, a pretty Good place to do that. 01:39:43.592 --> 01:39:48.092 Don't know how much longer I've got in tech in regards to, you know, career path. 01:39:48.132 --> 01:39:51.962 I'm kind of near the, I'm on the the back nine or maybe the back 01:39:51.972 --> 01:39:54.292 one of my, of my tech career. 01:39:55.702 --> 01:39:58.512 And that, that should free me up to do, maybe do a few more things. 01:39:58.552 --> 01:40:03.282 I, I definitely think, you know, involving horses and, and, you know, 01:40:03.302 --> 01:40:06.312 promoting, you know, some of the things that they do getting more involved, 01:40:06.362 --> 01:40:07.707 I think would be something I would. 01:40:07.957 --> 01:40:12.067 I would look to look to pursue if there's another story in there. 01:40:12.067 --> 01:40:15.657 There's another good narrative that I can I can create. 01:40:15.727 --> 01:40:19.087 Yeah, I think I would, I would definitely go down that path as well. 01:40:19.587 --> 01:40:23.527 But I think there's a little bit of time for self reflection to 01:40:23.537 --> 01:40:24.797 that will have to take place. 01:40:24.847 --> 01:40:29.697 And, you know, I don't necessarily just want to go 100 miles an hour 01:40:29.697 --> 01:40:31.547 from from 1 thing to another. 01:40:31.547 --> 01:40:34.517 So, I don't think a lot of time for self reflection, but just 01:40:34.517 --> 01:40:36.767 enough to make sure that the next. 01:40:38.227 --> 01:40:41.287 The next big project is, is going to be a fulfilling 1 you 01:40:41.287 --> 01:40:43.577 know, for, for what it's just 01:40:43.577 --> 01:40:44.297 Rupert Isaacson: interesting, isn't it? 01:40:44.297 --> 01:40:49.257 How this conversation starts with a boy who isn't experiencing much 01:40:49.257 --> 01:40:51.777 nature, who finds an expression of it 01:40:54.707 --> 01:40:56.267 through the horse through racing. 01:40:59.357 --> 01:41:02.067 And that, because that's also what was available in terms of the horse, but 01:41:02.067 --> 01:41:07.977 also the thrill of, of the betting, which to some degree takes the 01:41:08.147 --> 01:41:13.717 place of the sort of hunter gatherer thrill, you know, that's innate in us. 01:41:14.247 --> 01:41:20.487 And then you take this long segue through the tech industry and where do you 01:41:20.487 --> 01:41:22.977 come back to nature through this book? 01:41:23.357 --> 01:41:28.847 And I do think that's such a metaphor for, you know, All of us, really. 01:41:28.957 --> 01:41:31.917 You know, when we're facing a shit, what is going to happen in this future? 01:41:31.917 --> 01:41:32.787 What is happening with AI? 01:41:32.907 --> 01:41:37.377 I think the more, the only thing that comes to mind is going to the 01:41:37.377 --> 01:41:40.947 bush, get on a horse and go into the bush, you know, sure, we might have 01:41:40.947 --> 01:41:45.507 a drone up top, you know, looking out for some things, you know, but yeah 01:41:46.057 --> 01:41:47.987 Victor Bahna: Well, that's good because if you get thrown from the horse, the drone 01:41:47.997 --> 01:41:51.477 will pick it up and they'll be able to call a vet for you or the or the doctor. 01:41:51.477 --> 01:41:52.957 So you can actually come and physically 01:41:52.957 --> 01:41:53.407 Rupert Isaacson: lift you. 01:41:53.407 --> 01:41:54.637 And yeah, there you go. 01:41:55.907 --> 01:42:00.537 And I would love to connect you with the people that I know who are 01:42:00.537 --> 01:42:04.167 working in these various countries with thoroughbred aftercare. 01:42:04.227 --> 01:42:07.017 I think you guys are natural partners and I'm very happy to work with you. 01:42:07.677 --> 01:42:08.267 That'd be awesome. 01:42:08.887 --> 01:42:11.417 Victor Bahna: I would love to get more connected in that space. 01:42:12.657 --> 01:42:14.967 Rupert Isaacson: But listen, thanks, it's been a great conversation. 01:42:15.587 --> 01:42:18.777 Tell us again the name of your book, where they can find it, and if people 01:42:18.777 --> 01:42:20.867 want to find out more about what you're doing with thoroughbreds. 01:42:21.637 --> 01:42:22.387 Give us the link. 01:42:22.387 --> 01:42:22.597 Yeah, 01:42:22.617 --> 01:42:25.097 Victor Bahna: so the name of the book is Haliacal Star. 01:42:25.412 --> 01:42:29.352 And that's H E L I A C A L star. 01:42:30.192 --> 01:42:35.552 And you can find it on Amazon or any of your online booksellers. 01:42:35.632 --> 01:42:37.732 Rupert Isaacson: It's a five star reviewed book, by the way, everybody. 01:42:37.732 --> 01:42:38.722 It's worth a read. 01:42:38.842 --> 01:42:39.072 Yeah. 01:42:40.312 --> 01:42:41.412 Victor Bahna: Thank you for that. 01:42:41.542 --> 01:42:48.052 And you can also go to my website, which is my first name, last name, victorbana. 01:42:48.072 --> 01:42:48.442 com. 01:42:49.192 --> 01:42:50.492 B A H N A. 01:42:51.002 --> 01:42:51.262 Yeah. 01:42:51.292 --> 01:42:52.722 B A H N A, correct. 01:42:52.772 --> 01:42:53.032 Yeah. 01:42:53.082 --> 01:42:57.242 And you will find information about the book and you'll, you'll 01:42:57.252 --> 01:42:59.692 see you know, some of the things that are, that are happening. 01:43:00.682 --> 01:43:05.362 And you also have an email for me on that contact on that on that website as well. 01:43:05.372 --> 01:43:07.452 So, you know, feel free to contact me as well. 01:43:08.112 --> 01:43:08.632 Very good. 01:43:08.742 --> 01:43:13.342 But I, I would really appreciate the, the introduction to some 01:43:13.342 --> 01:43:15.462 of these rescue operations. 01:43:15.492 --> 01:43:19.942 It's definitely an area of high interest for me and I, I do see myself getting 01:43:19.942 --> 01:43:25.062 more involved in this as as I continue to to, to move forward in my own life cycle. 01:43:25.702 --> 01:43:27.282 Rupert Isaacson: And I'll throw that one out there to the listeners 01:43:27.282 --> 01:43:31.352 too, if any of you are interested in getting involved in this aftercare of 01:43:31.352 --> 01:43:33.362 thoroughbreds thing, it's, it's worth it. 01:43:33.692 --> 01:43:38.222 And these are animals that have a lot to give and absolutely help people. 01:43:38.222 --> 01:43:43.002 I was just, just doing a training in Scotland with a group called 01:43:43.012 --> 01:43:47.162 Horseback UK, who use a lot of off the track thoroughbreds with ex 01:43:47.162 --> 01:43:49.132 special forces guys who've come back. 01:43:49.622 --> 01:43:55.282 Missing large parts of themselves and at risk youth and many other 01:43:55.292 --> 01:43:58.362 vulnerable populations and the horses are just doing an incredible job. 01:43:58.362 --> 01:44:03.612 So, yeah, yeah, as as the world gets techier, we get horse here. 01:44:03.682 --> 01:44:03.982 Yeah, 01:44:05.062 --> 01:44:05.752 Victor Bahna: exactly. 01:44:07.472 --> 01:44:08.102 Rupert Isaacson: All right, my friend. 01:44:08.102 --> 01:44:09.792 Well, I look forward to more conversations. 01:44:09.792 --> 01:44:11.282 Thank you so much for coming on. 01:44:11.972 --> 01:44:14.162 Victor Bahna: Yeah, thank you again for, for having me. 01:44:14.162 --> 01:44:14.992 I really appreciate it. 01:44:15.042 --> 01:44:19.032 I enjoyed the conversation and and looking forward to to more in the future. 01:44:19.682 --> 01:44:20.322 Rupert Isaacson: Till next time. 01:44:21.266 --> 01:44:22.376 Thank you for joining us. 01:44:22.406 --> 01:44:24.236 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 01:44:24.475 --> 01:44:29.515 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 01:44:29.515 --> 01:44:34.705 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 01:44:35.412 --> 01:44:40.060 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 01:44:40.060 --> 01:44:42.070 dealing with trauma around the world. 01:44:42.398 --> 01:44:46.148 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 01:44:46.148 --> 01:44:49.388 for riders on long ride home.com. 01:44:49.686 --> 01:44:53.736 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 01:44:53.736 --> 01:44:55.656 bring you and your horse joy. 01:44:56.192 --> 01:45:00.752 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 01:45:01.082 --> 01:45:02.012 See you on the next show. 01:45:02.425 --> 01:45:05.115 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.