WEBVTT

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The Kallax OS comeback, the Canvas chaos,

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and Google Chrome's sneaky AI downloads.

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All of this and more is coming up

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on episode of this week in privacy.

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So stay tuned.

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Welcome back to This Week in Privacy,

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our weekly series where we discuss the

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latest updates with what we're working on

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within the PrivacyGuides community and

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this week's top stories in data privacy

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and cybersecurity.

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I'm Nate, and with me this week,

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after several weeks of absence, is Jonah.

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How are you doing, Jonah?

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You know, I am doing great this week,

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and I'm always doing great to be back

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on the show here.

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It's always fun.

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How have you been doing, Nate?

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Pretty good.

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Pretty good.

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As you know,

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lots going on behind the scenes here.

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Lots of videos coming up.

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We'll talk about that later.

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But yeah,

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I've just been keeping really busy working

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on everything we got coming up.

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Absolutely.

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Well, let's get into it then.

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All righty.

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Yeah.

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So let me swap the tiles here.

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Oops.

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Our first story this week is about Calix

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OS.

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So full disclosure,

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we do not recommend Calix OS here at

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Privacy Guides as one of our...

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as one of our recommended, uh,

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Android distros, but it is still popular.

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Nonetheless,

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they do have a heavy emphasis on, um,

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open source, I would argue.

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And, uh,

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like that's kind of their whole thing is

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a lot of the stock apps they swap

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for, uh, open source apps.

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And we'll,

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we'll talk about that a little later.

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But, um,

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for those who may not be aware,

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Calix OS actually, uh,

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went on hiatus in august of last year

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which is crazy to think about that it's

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been that long um but uh they went

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on hiatus uh they assured everybody they

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were like hey there's no signs of

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compromise or anything but um they had two

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major staff members leave they had nick

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merrill the founder and uh i don't know

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how to pronounce his name cheerio decide

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if i remember correctly um

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But he was like their,

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their lead developer and both of them

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parted ways from the outside.

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It seems very amicable there.

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There was no accusations as far as I'm

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aware of from any of the team members

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towards anyone else.

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But either way,

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Calix decided they're like, Hey,

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we're going to use this opportunity to

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completely revamp our entire

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infrastructure.

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We're going to rotate signing keys.

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I believe they went and bought a hardware

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security module.

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They really ramped up a lot of the

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behind the scenes infrastructure,

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but yeah,

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that is unfortunately kind of the end of

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the facts.

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And I,

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I'm going to go ahead and say,

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I have a little bit of a soft

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spot for Calix.

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I just want to admit where my bias

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is because they were kind of my first

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distro when I was getting into,

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to flashing custom Android ROMs.

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And I,

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I tried them out first and I liked

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it.

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You know,

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graphene obviously is way more private and

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secure, but it was, it was pretty cool.

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It was very empowering to flash an Android

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for the first time.

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And yeah,

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But, yeah, so that they,

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they originally said it'd be about four to

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six months,

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which if I did my math right,

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should be somewhere between December and

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February.

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And here we are in the beginning of

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May, early May, early mid May.

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And they said that this is their latest

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progress report.

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I believe it's number four.

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And they finally have a test build with

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Android.

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Hey, Nate,

00:03:46.171 --> 00:03:49.173
you're coming across a little robotically

00:03:49.233 --> 00:03:49.592
to me.

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So I wanted to ask people in the

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chat if that's happening to anyone else on

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the stream or not really quick.

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So leave a comment how the quality is.

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I might know what's causing that,

00:04:03.709 --> 00:04:04.629
but I'd have to step over to the

00:04:04.669 --> 00:04:06.850
other computer for just a second.

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Let me see here.

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Nope, that's not it.

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Well, yeah, let us know.

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It's just on my end.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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We'll wait and see.

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Okay.

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So, yeah.

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So Calix said that they would go ahead

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and...

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It should have been ready sometime,

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like no later than February,

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but here we are.

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In this new note,

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they basically say the Android-XVI build

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is ready.

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So the version of Kallax that's based on

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Android-XVI,

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they say is ready for community testing.

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So it's not in public yet.

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This is in beta.

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And, you know, I mean,

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there's some interesting stuff here.

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Like they say that it's based on

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Android-XVI QPR-II,

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which I think is the most recent one,

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but don't quote me on that.

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Um,

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it does support pixels four through nine.

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So it does not, um,

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I don't think the tens out yet.

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I'm sorry.

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I don't keep up with a lot of

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hardware very well.

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Uh, supports the Fairphone four and five,

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and it supports a handful of Motorola's.

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That is one reason that Calix has

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historically been a little bit more

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popular is just because, um,

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they do support more devices than graphene

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and they do still support locking the

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bootloader.

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So most apps should work.

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Okay.

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Not as good as graphene because with

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graphene,

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you've got the Google play services and

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stuff, but, um, definitely, uh,

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Yeah, it just, it supports more devices.

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And yes,

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Jordan informs me that the Pixel X is

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out.

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So doesn't quite support the Pixel X yet,

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but all their current devices.

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Supports the Pixel X currently,

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but this is their device list from before

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they shut down, if I remember correctly,

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because I think they supported the nine,

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didn't they?

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I believe so,

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and I'm going to guess that's probably

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what their direction was.

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It's like,

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let's start with our current stable of

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devices that we already support,

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and then from there, we'll expand.

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That's usually kind of how they do things.

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So yeah,

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they do go on to say here that

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they've also updated some of their bundled

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apps.

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So they moved to FDroid Basic instead of

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regular FDroid.

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They still have Aurora Store.

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They moved up to Breezy Weather.

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They used to be on Geometric Weather,

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but that one was deprecated quite some

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time ago, actually.

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They still include Signal.

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They still include the Tor browser.

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The Tor VPN is, I believe,

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a new project from Tor that's designed to

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replace Orbot.

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So they're going to be including that.

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CoMaps will be replacing Organic Maps.

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And other than that,

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I think most of these are things that

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they've already supported before.

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So...

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And then they say there's some features

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that have gone away,

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things like the panic button for now.

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They say it requires a lot of updates

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to make it work.

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They say they're shipping Chromium with

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less features,

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which you can read about below.

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So, yeah,

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it's definitely a very early update.

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beta, I mean, really.

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I know our staff member Jordan did attempt

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to test it out,

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but I believe couldn't get the flashing

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process to work.

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They kept running into an error.

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But I have seen some people just generally

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around the internet who have said that it

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has worked pretty well for them.

00:07:14.201 --> 00:07:15.983
But yeah, so I mean,

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that's kind of it as far as the

00:07:18.185 --> 00:07:19.125
facts of the story.

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This is a I think this is kind

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of a bigger story that we wanted to

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cover, even though, again,

00:07:23.987 --> 00:07:26.427
we don't really we don't formally endorse

00:07:26.548 --> 00:07:28.488
Calix OS as like a recommended distro,

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but it is very,

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very popular in the community.

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And this has been an ongoing saga.

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And I think this is like the first.

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Big milestone in terms of like, oh,

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they've actually got something to show for

00:07:40.432 --> 00:07:41.254
now, you know what I mean?

00:07:41.334 --> 00:07:44.535
So, yeah, really, yeah.

00:07:45.685 --> 00:07:46.826
Really interesting stuff.

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Do you have any thoughts you want to

00:07:48.708 --> 00:07:49.348
start with, Jonah?

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Because if not,

00:07:50.230 --> 00:07:51.410
I got some questions I can throw your

00:07:51.430 --> 00:07:51.571
way.

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All right.

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Yeah, a couple of things.

00:07:53.891 --> 00:07:54.932
It was interesting,

00:07:55.653 --> 00:07:56.855
I guess not really about the OS,

00:07:56.875 --> 00:07:58.415
but some of the apps that they included.

00:07:59.437 --> 00:08:01.598
Calix VPN, rather,

00:08:02.418 --> 00:08:03.699
being excluded from the list is

00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:05.942
interesting because I think that's been

00:08:06.021 --> 00:08:08.983
one of the big services that the Calix

00:08:09.043 --> 00:08:10.865
Institute has been providing for some

00:08:10.925 --> 00:08:11.086
time.

00:08:11.266 --> 00:08:11.985
I didn't even notice that.

00:08:13.127 --> 00:08:14.826
And they include Verizon VPN,

00:08:14.846 --> 00:08:17.468
which is kind of like... I mean,

00:08:17.588 --> 00:08:18.648
they probably don't consider them

00:08:18.927 --> 00:08:21.009
competitors because it's all non-profit

00:08:21.028 --> 00:08:22.488
and they're all just doing it for fun.

00:08:22.528 --> 00:08:24.170
But I mean,

00:08:25.009 --> 00:08:26.529
they're pretty much operating the same

00:08:26.569 --> 00:08:28.930
service so that they would include that

00:08:29.011 --> 00:08:29.711
one and not the other.

00:08:30.471 --> 00:08:31.190
It's interesting.

00:08:31.250 --> 00:08:34.951
I don't know why the Kallax VPN

00:08:35.692 --> 00:08:37.393
infrastructure and capacity is...

00:08:38.604 --> 00:08:40.345
not where it was before,

00:08:40.605 --> 00:08:42.044
or if they were having issues for some

00:08:42.085 --> 00:08:42.264
time.

00:08:42.565 --> 00:08:45.947
If anyone used Calix VPN,

00:08:46.206 --> 00:08:47.726
you could let us know what the experience

00:08:47.746 --> 00:08:47.846
is.

00:08:47.886 --> 00:08:49.347
But I just thought that was an interesting

00:08:49.368 --> 00:08:50.028
thing to highlight.

00:08:50.447 --> 00:08:54.389
I also can't remember if we talked about

00:08:54.470 --> 00:08:58.571
Tor VPN in a previous episode or

00:08:58.630 --> 00:08:58.971
somewhere.

00:08:59.030 --> 00:09:00.211
I was just talking to somebody.

00:09:00.331 --> 00:09:01.072
Not since I've been here.

00:09:03.027 --> 00:09:04.849
um maybe not then i don't know where

00:09:04.889 --> 00:09:06.470
i was talking about it but torby poor

00:09:06.509 --> 00:09:08.130
vpn is an interesting one too because it

00:09:08.272 --> 00:09:12.534
uses um the new tor implementation so

00:09:12.575 --> 00:09:14.115
instead of the one that was written in

00:09:14.275 --> 00:09:18.000
c the original tor backend service now

00:09:18.059 --> 00:09:21.221
it's written um in rust it's called rt

00:09:21.763 --> 00:09:23.024
and that was the main reason that it's

00:09:23.063 --> 00:09:24.325
replacing orbot so

00:09:25.816 --> 00:09:26.936
It's not just a rebrand.

00:09:27.096 --> 00:09:28.876
There's some modernization going on.

00:09:28.976 --> 00:09:31.298
So if you're a Orbot user or a

00:09:31.337 --> 00:09:32.298
Tor VPN user,

00:09:32.357 --> 00:09:33.999
I think that that is going to make,

00:09:34.578 --> 00:09:34.739
I mean,

00:09:34.759 --> 00:09:36.139
that's going to be a lot nicer for

00:09:36.198 --> 00:09:36.460
sure,

00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:39.080
and hopefully more reliable and hopefully

00:09:39.139 --> 00:09:39.701
more secure.

00:09:39.760 --> 00:09:42.981
So I guess that's not really about

00:09:43.022 --> 00:09:43.682
Kallaxos either,

00:09:43.721 --> 00:09:45.263
but a couple of cool things about the

00:09:45.383 --> 00:09:46.342
apps that they're installing.

00:09:47.423 --> 00:09:49.403
What are you thinking about this release?

00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:52.260
Um, no, that's cool about the VPN.

00:09:52.280 --> 00:09:53.140
Cause I didn't, I've, um,

00:09:53.421 --> 00:09:55.802
I I'm subscribed to the tour blogs RSS.

00:09:55.961 --> 00:09:56.981
So every once in a while I get

00:09:57.022 --> 00:09:58.923
notifications about RT's development,

00:09:59.283 --> 00:10:00.602
but I don't really know much about it

00:10:00.663 --> 00:10:02.203
other than like, it's a rebuild and rust.

00:10:02.323 --> 00:10:03.283
So when you said like, oh,

00:10:03.303 --> 00:10:05.565
this is basically a front end for Artie.

00:10:05.625 --> 00:10:06.585
I was like, oh, cool.

00:10:06.605 --> 00:10:08.086
So that's where they're going with this.

00:10:08.225 --> 00:10:08.365
Yeah.

00:10:08.426 --> 00:10:10.067
It's finally making it into,

00:10:10.267 --> 00:10:11.226
into tour software.

00:10:11.307 --> 00:10:12.746
I don't know when it'll be in like

00:10:13.587 --> 00:10:14.947
tour browser or anything like that,

00:10:14.967 --> 00:10:16.568
but at least we're slowly seeing progress

00:10:16.589 --> 00:10:16.928
for sure.

00:10:18.086 --> 00:10:19.385
Nice.

00:10:19.426 --> 00:10:22.106
Yeah, I mean, overall, like I said,

00:10:22.787 --> 00:10:24.587
I admit that I have a soft spot

00:10:24.607 --> 00:10:25.128
for Calix.

00:10:25.567 --> 00:10:27.009
So I'm really disappointed that this has

00:10:27.208 --> 00:10:28.328
been well past schedule.

00:10:28.408 --> 00:10:30.610
And I'm really disappointed by a lack of

00:10:30.649 --> 00:10:31.750
communication, especially.

00:10:33.350 --> 00:10:33.490
I mean,

00:10:33.510 --> 00:10:35.331
they've been relatively open in the sense

00:10:35.350 --> 00:10:37.011
that they have been publishing blog posts

00:10:37.052 --> 00:10:37.192
every...

00:10:37.951 --> 00:10:40.653
every other month, maybe, um, they've,

00:10:40.852 --> 00:10:41.072
you know,

00:10:41.133 --> 00:10:42.274
they went out of their way when they

00:10:42.293 --> 00:10:43.673
made the initial post and people started

00:10:43.693 --> 00:10:44.573
speculating like, Oh,

00:10:44.594 --> 00:10:45.715
is there some kind of compromise?

00:10:46.014 --> 00:10:46.674
They were like, no, no, no,

00:10:46.695 --> 00:10:47.514
there's no compromise,

00:10:47.855 --> 00:10:48.676
but really that's been it.

00:10:48.716 --> 00:10:50.015
There hasn't been any explanation for

00:10:50.056 --> 00:10:50.216
like,

00:10:50.296 --> 00:10:52.057
why are they so much further behind

00:10:52.116 --> 00:10:53.116
schedule than they expected?

00:10:53.136 --> 00:10:56.918
And like, I, um, I've had in,

00:10:57.038 --> 00:10:58.318
in the past, um,

00:10:58.379 --> 00:11:00.159
I've worked at other jobs where we have

00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:01.480
clients that I have to interface with.

00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:01.779
Right.

00:11:02.379 --> 00:11:03.961
And I remember one of my, uh,

00:11:05.547 --> 00:11:06.748
One of my bosses got really mad at

00:11:06.768 --> 00:11:08.330
me one time because I told the client,

00:11:08.350 --> 00:11:08.990
I'm like, hey,

00:11:09.029 --> 00:11:10.692
we have to contact support from this

00:11:10.731 --> 00:11:11.172
company.

00:11:11.732 --> 00:11:12.394
And, you know,

00:11:12.413 --> 00:11:13.715
it's kind of like slowing things down.

00:11:14.355 --> 00:11:15.657
And my boss was like, no, no, no,

00:11:15.716 --> 00:11:17.197
never tell them how the sausage is made.

00:11:17.298 --> 00:11:18.980
And I really disagreed with him on that

00:11:19.419 --> 00:11:19.961
because I'm like,

00:11:20.041 --> 00:11:21.982
if I was the client and you just

00:11:22.003 --> 00:11:23.224
keep telling me we're working on it,

00:11:23.244 --> 00:11:24.304
we're working on it, we're working on it,

00:11:24.325 --> 00:11:24.424
we're

00:11:25.706 --> 00:11:26.946
That's going to shake my faith in you.

00:11:26.985 --> 00:11:28.246
That's going to be, make me think like,

00:11:28.267 --> 00:11:29.407
dude, why is this taking so long?

00:11:29.706 --> 00:11:30.667
But when you tell me like,

00:11:30.706 --> 00:11:31.988
here's exactly what we're doing.

00:11:32.048 --> 00:11:33.028
Like we had to get in touch with

00:11:33.048 --> 00:11:33.427
support.

00:11:33.748 --> 00:11:34.948
Support has to research this.

00:11:35.009 --> 00:11:36.349
They're shipping us a new firmware,

00:11:36.389 --> 00:11:37.249
like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

00:11:37.269 --> 00:11:37.970
whatever the case.

00:11:38.529 --> 00:11:39.529
That's when I know like, oh,

00:11:39.570 --> 00:11:40.269
you're working on it.

00:11:40.330 --> 00:11:42.530
And also this is a really complex problem.

00:11:43.230 --> 00:11:44.851
That like this is why I'm paying you

00:11:44.912 --> 00:11:45.932
is to handle these problems.

00:11:45.972 --> 00:11:48.514
So I say that to talk about this

00:11:48.553 --> 00:11:49.975
is like I'm really disappointed that Calix

00:11:49.995 --> 00:11:51.635
has decided to take the first approach

00:11:52.056 --> 00:11:52.996
where they're just like, oh,

00:11:53.076 --> 00:11:54.798
we'll just we'll just issue you little

00:11:54.878 --> 00:11:55.698
updates here and there.

00:11:55.739 --> 00:11:56.839
But we're not going to address the

00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:58.100
elephant in the room of why is this

00:11:58.139 --> 00:11:59.660
taking so long and why are we behind

00:11:59.721 --> 00:12:00.140
schedule?

00:12:00.181 --> 00:12:03.682
So that that really does disappoint me

00:12:03.722 --> 00:12:04.144
personally.

00:12:05.275 --> 00:12:08.096
But I was curious if you could,

00:12:08.976 --> 00:12:09.996
cause I know there's some technical

00:12:10.037 --> 00:12:10.356
reasons.

00:12:10.397 --> 00:12:11.657
If you could just kind of fill in

00:12:12.717 --> 00:12:12.998
Jonah,

00:12:13.018 --> 00:12:15.878
if you wouldn't mind filling in users on

00:12:15.937 --> 00:12:17.599
why we don't really recommend Calix.

00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:18.239
Cause I know it gets,

00:12:19.339 --> 00:12:21.639
and it gets passed around or not passed

00:12:21.658 --> 00:12:21.839
around.

00:12:21.899 --> 00:12:24.500
It gets touted and advertised a lot in

00:12:24.539 --> 00:12:26.000
the privacy community as like an

00:12:26.019 --> 00:12:26.919
alternative to graphene.

00:12:27.341 --> 00:12:28.640
And again, despite my bias,

00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:30.600
I don't think that's really an accurate

00:12:30.640 --> 00:12:31.520
representation.

00:12:32.841 --> 00:12:33.922
So like what, what makes a,

00:12:36.091 --> 00:12:37.653
I don't necessarily want to turn this into

00:12:37.693 --> 00:12:38.394
talking crap about him,

00:12:38.414 --> 00:12:39.475
but why don't we recommend...

00:12:39.676 --> 00:12:41.118
Why isn't that a really fair comparison in

00:12:41.158 --> 00:12:41.418
your opinion?

00:12:42.038 --> 00:12:43.041
Yeah, for sure.

00:12:44.001 --> 00:12:44.863
Before I get into that,

00:12:45.403 --> 00:12:47.125
do you know if MicroG was on that

00:12:47.145 --> 00:12:47.346
list?

00:12:47.366 --> 00:12:48.567
Are they still using that?

00:12:48.587 --> 00:12:50.009
I know they were using it before,

00:12:50.370 --> 00:12:51.993
but I just didn't see it in this

00:12:52.312 --> 00:12:53.375
post unless you...

00:12:54.826 --> 00:12:56.768
yeah it's not in this list but i

00:12:56.847 --> 00:12:58.368
have to assume it's going to be there

00:12:58.408 --> 00:13:00.567
because otherwise i don't know okay how

00:13:00.649 --> 00:13:02.769
it's going to work maybe if jordan's

00:13:02.828 --> 00:13:04.328
listening and was able to test it out

00:13:04.610 --> 00:13:06.409
um they can let me know in the

00:13:06.450 --> 00:13:09.130
chat but um yeah there's there's a couple

00:13:09.171 --> 00:13:11.051
different reasons i mean i think the main

00:13:11.091 --> 00:13:15.072
thing comes down to the the changes that

00:13:15.631 --> 00:13:17.832
calyx os is making

00:13:18.753 --> 00:13:20.994
uh mainly come down to getting google

00:13:21.033 --> 00:13:23.735
software out of the main operating system

00:13:23.754 --> 00:13:25.696
so they replace google play services with

00:13:25.816 --> 00:13:27.937
micro g for example and they replace all

00:13:27.976 --> 00:13:30.677
of the standard apps um with these open

00:13:30.697 --> 00:13:31.937
source alternatives like they don't have

00:13:31.957 --> 00:13:34.739
the play store they bundle after a basic

00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:39.561
by default um but beyond that they don't

00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:41.241
do a lot of modifications they've never

00:13:41.261 --> 00:13:41.841
been like super

00:13:42.616 --> 00:13:44.158
technical with like how the operating

00:13:44.197 --> 00:13:46.077
system works or additional features that

00:13:46.097 --> 00:13:47.879
can protect your security or privacy

00:13:48.359 --> 00:13:51.519
whereas um on graphene os for example we

00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:53.480
see additional hardening features

00:13:53.520 --> 00:13:55.682
additional like permissions that you can

00:13:56.022 --> 00:13:58.982
you can restrict apps with um additional

00:13:59.102 --> 00:14:00.884
sandboxing with google play and all of

00:14:00.903 --> 00:14:03.083
that stuff you don't really see with

00:14:03.124 --> 00:14:07.105
calxos i think another big criticism with

00:14:07.285 --> 00:14:09.386
i would say micro g in general is

00:14:09.407 --> 00:14:09.927
that well

00:14:12.160 --> 00:14:14.581
it replaces all of the client software on

00:14:14.601 --> 00:14:17.563
your device and in theory makes it more

00:14:17.823 --> 00:14:21.246
compatible with the open source ethos.

00:14:21.547 --> 00:14:23.227
All of these micro G services are

00:14:23.347 --> 00:14:27.030
generally still connecting to Google

00:14:27.071 --> 00:14:28.370
services at the end of the day.

00:14:29.731 --> 00:14:33.995
Graphene OS certainly would also have this

00:14:34.054 --> 00:14:35.015
problem in a lot of cases,

00:14:35.076 --> 00:14:37.236
especially if you use Sandbox Google Play.

00:14:37.758 --> 00:14:38.898
But if you don't do that,

00:14:39.818 --> 00:14:41.080
Graphene OS by default,

00:14:42.639 --> 00:14:43.461
removes, I believe,

00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:45.201
all connections to Google services,

00:14:45.421 --> 00:14:49.143
and they are really good about proxying

00:14:50.842 --> 00:14:53.203
any services that are required with

00:14:53.264 --> 00:14:55.245
Google, like connectivity checks,

00:14:55.264 --> 00:14:55.764
for example.

00:14:55.784 --> 00:14:57.924
They proxy through Graphene OS servers by

00:14:58.024 --> 00:14:58.365
default,

00:14:58.405 --> 00:14:59.686
so you're not hitting Google servers

00:14:59.706 --> 00:15:00.125
directly,

00:15:00.525 --> 00:15:02.006
and you can typically turn all of that

00:15:02.047 --> 00:15:02.447
stuff off.

00:15:03.106 --> 00:15:07.028
off completely if you choose to so those

00:15:07.048 --> 00:15:09.609
are some of the benefits in graphing os

00:15:09.629 --> 00:15:12.229
that we just don't see uh added in

00:15:12.249 --> 00:15:15.389
calyx os calyx os is more of a

00:15:15.490 --> 00:15:18.291
stock android experience with some bundled

00:15:19.230 --> 00:15:20.951
apps that are nicer than the alternatives

00:15:21.011 --> 00:15:23.351
but it's not really changing the android

00:15:23.392 --> 00:15:26.052
paradigm in in any way and i don't

00:15:26.072 --> 00:15:28.094
know in previous episodes and on other

00:15:28.134 --> 00:15:29.354
shows i've talked a lot about how

00:15:30.197 --> 00:15:32.018
Android is just not my favorite operating

00:15:32.038 --> 00:15:34.359
system in general because it's very tied

00:15:34.438 --> 00:15:36.039
to everything that Google is doing.

00:15:37.280 --> 00:15:39.241
I think Chromium kind of has the same

00:15:39.302 --> 00:15:39.542
issue,

00:15:39.562 --> 00:15:41.663
but Android especially and Graphene OS

00:15:41.682 --> 00:15:46.426
just goes a lot further in making that

00:15:46.466 --> 00:15:47.826
less of the case.

00:15:48.106 --> 00:15:49.486
I think it's unfortunate that even on

00:15:49.527 --> 00:15:50.288
Graphene OS,

00:15:50.648 --> 00:15:53.068
most people have to rely on Sandbox Google

00:15:53.109 --> 00:15:55.009
Play to get a decent experience on

00:15:55.070 --> 00:15:55.409
Android.

00:15:56.551 --> 00:15:59.532
But what can you do?

00:15:59.611 --> 00:16:03.413
At least with the Sandbox Google Play and

00:16:03.433 --> 00:16:04.094
Graphene OS,

00:16:04.114 --> 00:16:05.855
you can install all of those as

00:16:06.174 --> 00:16:07.436
user-installed apps, basically.

00:16:07.495 --> 00:16:08.875
Whereas even on Kallax OS,

00:16:08.936 --> 00:16:10.017
if you use Micro G,

00:16:10.716 --> 00:16:12.118
all of the Micro G apps have to

00:16:12.138 --> 00:16:14.578
be installed as system apps, which...

00:16:15.438 --> 00:16:16.620
will, I mean,

00:16:16.740 --> 00:16:19.743
which is a greater security risk than apps

00:16:19.763 --> 00:16:22.206
that have normal user install permissions.

00:16:23.486 --> 00:16:25.229
I think the other main thing that we

00:16:25.249 --> 00:16:27.711
would see with Graphene OS is just a

00:16:27.831 --> 00:16:30.234
much stronger commitment to updates,

00:16:30.433 --> 00:16:31.455
security updates,

00:16:31.956 --> 00:16:33.277
but also just updates in general.

00:16:33.777 --> 00:16:34.859
We saw, as you noted,

00:16:35.239 --> 00:16:37.140
the Pixel X is not even supported with

00:16:37.181 --> 00:16:38.022
Kallax OS yet.

00:16:39.523 --> 00:16:42.005
i don't know i don't know too much

00:16:42.086 --> 00:16:43.606
else about the current like version of

00:16:43.746 --> 00:16:45.649
android that this is using i know all

00:16:45.668 --> 00:16:47.591
of this calyxos is still in beta they're

00:16:47.610 --> 00:16:49.013
just getting up and running but

00:16:49.113 --> 00:16:53.177
historically they have been a bit behind

00:16:53.236 --> 00:16:54.979
normal android releases and a bit behind

00:16:55.019 --> 00:16:57.740
graphene os whereas graphene os very often

00:16:58.142 --> 00:16:59.003
releases updates

00:16:59.894 --> 00:17:01.235
very, very close,

00:17:01.297 --> 00:17:03.879
if not at the same time as major

00:17:03.958 --> 00:17:04.619
Android updates.

00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:06.061
And even now,

00:17:06.541 --> 00:17:10.787
Graphene OS has a partnership with an OEM

00:17:10.826 --> 00:17:13.890
that has access to these security updates

00:17:13.950 --> 00:17:15.832
that aren't publicly released yet.

00:17:15.872 --> 00:17:18.474
So they can issue those security releases

00:17:18.535 --> 00:17:19.536
before they're open source.

00:17:19.836 --> 00:17:20.737
Of course, if you don't want

00:17:21.698 --> 00:17:23.140
proprietary code on your device,

00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:24.681
you can you can disable those and wait

00:17:24.701 --> 00:17:26.824
for them to be publicly released.

00:17:26.844 --> 00:17:28.545
But that is a security option that I

00:17:28.565 --> 00:17:30.867
don't think Kallax OS would even be able

00:17:30.907 --> 00:17:32.209
to offer as far as I know,

00:17:32.229 --> 00:17:33.790
because Google restricts some of those

00:17:33.830 --> 00:17:37.174
security updates to certain approved

00:17:37.255 --> 00:17:38.756
parties, which is a shame.

00:17:39.557 --> 00:17:41.318
So, yeah, kind of a lot,

00:17:41.558 --> 00:17:43.441
but that's typically all of the reasons.

00:17:44.301 --> 00:17:46.483
Kallax OS didn't really make sense to me,

00:17:46.523 --> 00:17:47.505
probably still doesn't,

00:17:47.525 --> 00:17:49.467
but I guess we'll see how this is

00:17:49.487 --> 00:17:49.767
going,

00:17:49.807 --> 00:17:51.388
because it seems like they'll be taking

00:17:52.148 --> 00:17:55.172
a... well,

00:17:55.211 --> 00:17:56.453
at least a different approach than they

00:17:56.493 --> 00:17:57.394
were before.

00:17:57.474 --> 00:17:57.815
Yeah.

00:17:59.813 --> 00:18:01.012
Yeah, I agree with all of that.

00:18:01.153 --> 00:18:01.814
I agree that it's...

00:18:04.273 --> 00:18:06.734
I think they do a couple small things

00:18:06.795 --> 00:18:07.996
to try and make it a little more

00:18:08.036 --> 00:18:08.855
privacy-respecting.

00:18:08.955 --> 00:18:10.715
I think the advertising ID is removed by

00:18:10.756 --> 00:18:11.676
default or something.

00:18:12.156 --> 00:18:13.616
But it's really nothing compared to

00:18:13.636 --> 00:18:13.977
Graphene.

00:18:14.018 --> 00:18:15.157
It's definitely not even in the same

00:18:15.178 --> 00:18:15.698
ballpark.

00:18:17.199 --> 00:18:18.558
I think really the only selling point,

00:18:18.578 --> 00:18:20.960
in my opinion, is that it would be...

00:18:22.175 --> 00:18:24.057
I would argue it's an easier setup because

00:18:24.076 --> 00:18:24.758
then with graphene,

00:18:24.778 --> 00:18:25.818
you need to go in and you need

00:18:25.838 --> 00:18:27.359
to install the play services.

00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:28.840
I mean, if you want to use those,

00:18:28.861 --> 00:18:29.740
which like you said,

00:18:31.082 --> 00:18:32.123
some people could definitely get away

00:18:32.143 --> 00:18:34.605
without those, but for the average person,

00:18:34.644 --> 00:18:35.766
you're going to need those for

00:18:35.806 --> 00:18:36.846
notifications and stuff.

00:18:36.885 --> 00:18:37.866
So with graphene,

00:18:37.906 --> 00:18:39.528
you additionally have to go in and install

00:18:39.548 --> 00:18:40.828
that kind of stuff and get everything set

00:18:40.888 --> 00:18:41.028
up.

00:18:41.609 --> 00:18:43.471
But yeah, at the end of the day,

00:18:43.530 --> 00:18:43.711
it's...

00:18:44.050 --> 00:18:45.731
That is another downside of graphene OS.

00:18:46.212 --> 00:18:47.713
You are stuck with the official play

00:18:47.753 --> 00:18:48.614
services clients.

00:18:48.694 --> 00:18:50.175
If you are the kind of person who...

00:18:51.215 --> 00:18:52.856
prefers the micro-G approach,

00:18:52.936 --> 00:18:54.916
at least you have that option with Calix,

00:18:54.936 --> 00:18:58.838
whereas despite them being sandbox on

00:18:58.878 --> 00:19:00.558
Graphene OS, which is great,

00:19:00.598 --> 00:19:01.880
especially because you can restrict them

00:19:01.900 --> 00:19:02.799
to certain profiles,

00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:05.721
you're still running that proprietary

00:19:05.760 --> 00:19:07.560
Google code directly on your device,

00:19:07.602 --> 00:19:09.741
and some people just aren't going to like

00:19:09.781 --> 00:19:10.061
that.

00:19:10.241 --> 00:19:14.463
So that is something to consider for sure.

00:19:14.544 --> 00:19:15.324
Yeah, I agree.

00:19:15.344 --> 00:19:17.545
I think I had...

00:19:18.905 --> 00:19:19.286
One other.

00:19:19.686 --> 00:19:19.946
Yeah.

00:19:19.987 --> 00:19:22.567
So in your opinion on that note,

00:19:23.008 --> 00:19:24.209
do you think there's any like redeeming

00:19:24.229 --> 00:19:25.309
qualities about this update?

00:19:25.329 --> 00:19:25.930
Like me personally,

00:19:25.950 --> 00:19:27.191
I'm glad to see them finally move to

00:19:27.230 --> 00:19:28.250
breezy weather because again,

00:19:28.330 --> 00:19:31.093
geometric has been abandoned for God,

00:19:31.133 --> 00:19:32.373
I think years at this point,

00:19:32.473 --> 00:19:33.473
like a good couple of years.

00:19:33.513 --> 00:19:35.775
So it's nice to see them finally move.

00:19:35.835 --> 00:19:36.695
I like to see them get rid of

00:19:36.756 --> 00:19:37.276
scrambled eggs.

00:19:37.336 --> 00:19:39.017
If like that is also abandoned where I

00:19:39.057 --> 00:19:39.257
think,

00:19:39.317 --> 00:19:40.938
or at very least like not updated very

00:19:40.998 --> 00:19:41.298
often.

00:19:41.838 --> 00:19:43.559
I wish they would just roll that into

00:19:44.220 --> 00:19:45.681
the camera app like graphene does,

00:19:45.760 --> 00:19:46.020
but yeah,

00:19:46.755 --> 00:19:47.276
Yeah, I don't know.

00:19:47.296 --> 00:19:48.396
Do you think there's any redeeming

00:19:48.416 --> 00:19:50.239
qualities about this or anything that you

00:19:50.278 --> 00:19:52.382
think is a step forward maybe?

00:19:52.402 --> 00:19:52.742
You know...

00:19:55.305 --> 00:19:55.765
To be honest,

00:19:55.825 --> 00:19:57.605
I'm not the biggest expert on Android

00:19:57.645 --> 00:20:00.067
apps, so it's kind of hard to say.

00:20:00.928 --> 00:20:03.249
Some of these apps certainly make sense to

00:20:03.269 --> 00:20:03.909
pre-install.

00:20:04.048 --> 00:20:05.630
I'm glad they're pre-installing Signal,

00:20:05.650 --> 00:20:06.250
for example.

00:20:07.111 --> 00:20:07.570
Some of them,

00:20:08.071 --> 00:20:09.092
like the ones that you mentioned,

00:20:09.152 --> 00:20:10.073
don't make a lot of sense.

00:20:10.992 --> 00:20:12.554
I can't remember.

00:20:13.374 --> 00:20:15.414
I saw DAB X five.

00:20:15.654 --> 00:20:17.016
I think that's the newer.

00:20:17.876 --> 00:20:19.196
I think I'm thinking of a different app

00:20:19.217 --> 00:20:20.038
that was discontinued.

00:20:20.057 --> 00:20:20.958
That's probably the newer one,

00:20:20.978 --> 00:20:21.557
so never mind.

00:20:23.205 --> 00:20:23.767
But yeah,

00:20:24.007 --> 00:20:26.391
certainly having privacy respecting

00:20:26.451 --> 00:20:27.613
defaults is good.

00:20:28.855 --> 00:20:31.838
Like comaps or organic maps they had

00:20:31.878 --> 00:20:32.240
before.

00:20:32.259 --> 00:20:33.561
It looks like they're switching to comaps

00:20:33.602 --> 00:20:33.781
now.

00:20:34.182 --> 00:20:37.227
I mean, it's greater visibility.

00:20:37.548 --> 00:20:38.489
And I would say that this...

00:20:39.730 --> 00:20:42.153
list of apps is probably useful to people.

00:20:42.252 --> 00:20:42.593
I mean,

00:20:42.653 --> 00:20:44.354
even if you end up using Graphene OS,

00:20:44.753 --> 00:20:46.134
this would be a good list of apps

00:20:46.174 --> 00:20:48.076
to maybe look at.

00:20:48.957 --> 00:20:50.037
And maybe you want to use some of

00:20:50.076 --> 00:20:50.237
these.

00:20:50.678 --> 00:20:53.378
You can install FDroid on Graphene OS too,

00:20:53.439 --> 00:20:53.779
certainly.

00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:55.721
And we have a lot of Android app

00:20:55.760 --> 00:20:57.961
recommendations on our site as well.

00:20:59.303 --> 00:20:59.603
But yeah,

00:21:00.644 --> 00:21:02.744
any visibility to all of these third-party

00:21:02.785 --> 00:21:05.165
apps that are providing good services is a

00:21:05.205 --> 00:21:05.926
good thing, I would say.

00:21:07.781 --> 00:21:09.604
Yeah, a user here says,

00:21:09.644 --> 00:21:10.444
nice to have you, Jonah.

00:21:10.925 --> 00:21:12.288
They said, breezy weather is goaded.

00:21:12.407 --> 00:21:13.088
And that's an example.

00:21:13.169 --> 00:21:13.548
I agree.

00:21:13.648 --> 00:21:14.691
I use breezy weather.

00:21:14.770 --> 00:21:15.771
It's pretty rad.

00:21:15.991 --> 00:21:18.855
I like it a lot.

00:21:18.875 --> 00:21:20.938
Before we move on to the next story,

00:21:21.739 --> 00:21:23.480
assuming there's nothing to add to that,

00:21:25.270 --> 00:21:26.271
sawed this all here, said,

00:21:26.372 --> 00:21:27.712
you love the PG polos.

00:21:27.913 --> 00:21:29.295
So I just wanted to,

00:21:29.775 --> 00:21:30.996
I would be remiss if I didn't take

00:21:31.016 --> 00:21:32.617
a moment to point out that we do

00:21:32.657 --> 00:21:33.318
have a merch store,

00:21:33.338 --> 00:21:35.820
shop.privacyguides.org.

00:21:35.840 --> 00:21:36.842
We have this awesome,

00:21:37.382 --> 00:21:38.303
I know you probably can't read it from

00:21:38.323 --> 00:21:39.964
there, but this coffee cup,

00:21:39.984 --> 00:21:41.425
because I'm insane and I'm drinking coffee

00:21:41.445 --> 00:21:42.047
at five PM,

00:21:42.787 --> 00:21:44.808
has article twelve of the UN's Declaration

00:21:44.848 --> 00:21:46.290
of Human Rights, which is about privacy.

00:21:46.711 --> 00:21:48.231
I actually have some stickers here because

00:21:48.251 --> 00:21:49.673
I was going to ask Jonah a question

00:21:49.693 --> 00:21:50.294
about those later.

00:21:51.095 --> 00:21:51.976
poster in the back,

00:21:52.556 --> 00:21:53.476
all kinds of cool stuff.

00:21:53.496 --> 00:21:54.037
So yeah,

00:21:54.136 --> 00:21:57.077
and certainly not all of our merch is

00:21:57.159 --> 00:21:58.839
like these polos with just the with

00:21:58.920 --> 00:21:59.720
privacy gets loaded.

00:21:59.940 --> 00:22:01.401
A lot of that is for the team

00:22:01.441 --> 00:22:03.301
members who want stuff for this video.

00:22:03.342 --> 00:22:04.643
But we also have a lot of merch

00:22:04.682 --> 00:22:06.584
like with that poster design in the

00:22:06.604 --> 00:22:08.625
background of Nate's video right there.

00:22:10.105 --> 00:22:11.287
And a lot of other cool stuff.

00:22:11.326 --> 00:22:13.387
So if you are interested in those privacy

00:22:13.428 --> 00:22:14.347
designs, I would check it out.

00:22:14.568 --> 00:22:17.849
And we hope to add more stuff there

00:22:17.910 --> 00:22:18.191
soon.

00:22:20.592 --> 00:22:21.991
Another thing before we start talking

00:22:22.011 --> 00:22:23.711
about this canvas story,

00:22:23.791 --> 00:22:27.773
I wanted to answer TG in nineteen ninety

00:22:27.814 --> 00:22:30.294
seven's question really quickly here.

00:22:31.375 --> 00:22:32.734
We always have around five to twenty

00:22:32.775 --> 00:22:33.315
viewers.

00:22:34.736 --> 00:22:38.436
A couple of reasons were very generously

00:22:38.477 --> 00:22:40.257
supported by many of our members.

00:22:40.317 --> 00:22:42.038
We also get a lot of views on

00:22:42.077 --> 00:22:46.019
this show after the fact of especially

00:22:46.058 --> 00:22:47.819
various podcast apps we get

00:22:48.779 --> 00:22:49.661
A lot of downloads there.

00:22:50.102 --> 00:22:51.903
But it's mainly the support of our members

00:22:52.104 --> 00:22:54.747
and people who want extra perks across our

00:22:54.826 --> 00:22:55.988
site and our forum,

00:22:56.468 --> 00:22:58.671
which certainly has an active membership.

00:22:59.432 --> 00:23:02.255
The other reason for this discrepancy in

00:23:02.335 --> 00:23:03.895
views is that we...

00:23:04.656 --> 00:23:06.439
uh stream on a lot of different platforms

00:23:06.459 --> 00:23:08.079
so like right now on streamyard i can

00:23:08.200 --> 00:23:10.561
see a hundred forty nine people are

00:23:10.602 --> 00:23:13.144
watching and on youtube that's quite a bit

00:23:13.404 --> 00:23:16.186
less um so yeah as somebody else just

00:23:16.227 --> 00:23:18.630
pointed we we live stream on youtube we

00:23:18.650 --> 00:23:20.811
live stream on x we also live stream

00:23:20.852 --> 00:23:22.732
on twitter and we live stream on

00:23:22.993 --> 00:23:25.035
streamyard.com which is the

00:23:26.115 --> 00:23:29.317
which is the streaming service that we are

00:23:29.416 --> 00:23:30.498
using to stream in the first place,

00:23:30.518 --> 00:23:31.657
so it's kind of a native approach.

00:23:32.018 --> 00:23:37.140
We share the StreamYard stuff on our form,

00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:41.601
so a lot of different options for people

00:23:41.641 --> 00:23:45.103
to choose from, not just YouTube.

00:23:47.539 --> 00:23:47.819
But yeah,

00:23:47.859 --> 00:23:49.161
we would love to get more viewership.

00:23:49.260 --> 00:23:51.522
So definitely subscribe if you like these

00:23:51.542 --> 00:23:54.486
shows and share the show with a friend

00:23:54.526 --> 00:23:56.047
or two if you think it's interesting.

00:23:56.928 --> 00:24:00.471
Because we would love for more people to

00:24:00.490 --> 00:24:01.432
hear about all of this stuff.

00:24:01.451 --> 00:24:02.553
Of course, that's why we're doing it.

00:24:04.557 --> 00:24:05.998
Not to dig into it too much,

00:24:06.057 --> 00:24:10.059
but nice to have Jonah says why you

00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:11.260
only see six people.

00:24:11.780 --> 00:24:12.961
Because we're in the studio,

00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:14.362
we can see the full list.

00:24:15.303 --> 00:24:17.183
It says here that we've got over a

00:24:17.223 --> 00:24:18.644
hundred and twenty people on Twitter.

00:24:19.325 --> 00:24:20.505
What's that?

00:24:20.525 --> 00:24:22.066
It just combines them all into one number.

00:24:22.425 --> 00:24:23.326
That's what I was looking at.

00:24:23.955 --> 00:24:24.836
But if we hover over it,

00:24:24.856 --> 00:24:25.698
it gives us a breakdown.

00:24:25.738 --> 00:24:25.938
So, yeah,

00:24:25.958 --> 00:24:27.619
there's six people on StreamYard right

00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:29.301
now, twenty two on YouTube.

00:24:29.422 --> 00:24:30.363
We got one on Twitch.

00:24:31.585 --> 00:24:33.006
I didn't even know Blue Sky did live

00:24:33.027 --> 00:24:33.287
streaming.

00:24:33.307 --> 00:24:33.968
We can look into that,

00:24:33.988 --> 00:24:35.528
but it's really about what StreamYard.

00:24:35.588 --> 00:24:37.392
Yeah, Blue Sky doesn't do live streaming.

00:24:39.634 --> 00:24:43.095
if you want to share um whoever said

00:24:43.134 --> 00:24:45.455
blue sky um what you're referring to i

00:24:45.476 --> 00:24:48.796
know you can um post a link to

00:24:48.816 --> 00:24:50.497
the live stream manually on blue sky and

00:24:50.517 --> 00:24:52.076
it will show up like around your profile

00:24:52.116 --> 00:24:55.357
picture um we have to do that basically

00:24:55.377 --> 00:24:57.618
every time we stream manually and we can't

00:24:57.699 --> 00:24:58.439
even link to

00:24:59.488 --> 00:25:01.409
youtube streams i think or stream yard we

00:25:01.429 --> 00:25:03.009
have to link to like twitch or something

00:25:03.069 --> 00:25:06.271
so it's just annoying to do on on

00:25:06.352 --> 00:25:09.534
blue sky but maybe we'll use that feature

00:25:09.554 --> 00:25:10.654
in the future i don't know what blue

00:25:10.674 --> 00:25:13.557
sky features really have for live streams

00:25:15.116 --> 00:25:17.858
yeah we could look into it oh here

00:25:17.878 --> 00:25:19.440
we go somebody said the the new calyx

00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:21.201
os builds run great on the pixel six

00:25:21.221 --> 00:25:23.502
six a and six pro so there we

00:25:23.522 --> 00:25:24.982
go we have some uh boots on the

00:25:25.002 --> 00:25:27.184
ground from somebody who's tried it

00:25:27.285 --> 00:25:27.545
awesome

00:25:29.025 --> 00:25:31.446
Good to know.

00:25:31.467 --> 00:25:32.268
All right.

00:25:32.307 --> 00:25:32.468
Well,

00:25:32.488 --> 00:25:35.210
let's take a look at our next story

00:25:35.250 --> 00:25:35.451
here.

00:25:35.711 --> 00:25:37.752
This was reported by Bleeping Computer.

00:25:38.232 --> 00:25:38.854
Headline is,

00:25:38.953 --> 00:25:42.056
Canvas login portals hacked in mass Shiny

00:25:42.096 --> 00:25:43.698
Hunters extortion campaign.

00:25:44.298 --> 00:25:45.880
The Shiny Hunters extortion gang has

00:25:45.940 --> 00:25:48.060
breached education technology giant

00:25:48.162 --> 00:25:49.383
Instructure again,

00:25:49.423 --> 00:25:51.825
this time exploiting a vulnerability to

00:25:51.845 --> 00:25:54.227
deface Canvas login portals for hundreds

00:25:54.406 --> 00:25:56.229
of colleges and universities.

00:25:57.128 --> 00:25:57.730
The defacements,

00:25:57.769 --> 00:25:59.330
which were visible for roughly thirty

00:25:59.371 --> 00:26:01.292
minutes before being taken offline,

00:26:01.313 --> 00:26:02.994
displayed a message from shiny hunters

00:26:03.075 --> 00:26:05.416
claiming responsibility for the earlier

00:26:05.497 --> 00:26:07.838
Instructure breach and threatening to leak

00:26:07.999 --> 00:26:11.182
stolen data if a ransom is not paid.

00:26:11.781 --> 00:26:13.784
The message warrants that Instructure and

00:26:13.864 --> 00:26:16.346
schools have until May twelfth to contact

00:26:16.386 --> 00:26:19.308
them to negotiate a ransom or students

00:26:19.449 --> 00:26:21.211
data will be leaked.

00:26:24.243 --> 00:26:26.905
Moving down in this story here.

00:26:30.048 --> 00:26:31.749
I'm not seeing it in here,

00:26:32.108 --> 00:26:35.872
but I read in a different article that

00:26:35.912 --> 00:26:38.933
this vulnerability was related to a

00:26:39.013 --> 00:26:41.434
service that Instructure has with Canvas

00:26:41.474 --> 00:26:45.698
that allows teachers from any school to

00:26:45.758 --> 00:26:46.858
sign up and create courses,

00:26:46.919 --> 00:26:48.019
even if your school doesn't have a

00:26:48.059 --> 00:26:48.779
partnership with them.

00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:50.721
So I know that they've disabled that

00:26:50.781 --> 00:26:51.642
feature, basically.

00:26:53.342 --> 00:26:55.323
But what the vulnerability is exactly,

00:26:55.523 --> 00:26:59.746
or I think what data has been leaked,

00:27:00.346 --> 00:27:01.047
as far as I know,

00:27:01.086 --> 00:27:03.068
is not necessarily clear yet.

00:27:03.108 --> 00:27:05.990
But the hackers in question have claimed

00:27:06.070 --> 00:27:08.152
to have stolen two hundred eighty million

00:27:08.491 --> 00:27:10.733
student and staff records tied to eight

00:27:10.753 --> 00:27:13.056
thousand eight hundred nine schools,

00:27:13.236 --> 00:27:16.238
universities and education platforms using

00:27:16.278 --> 00:27:18.078
the Canvas learning management system,

00:27:18.159 --> 00:27:19.299
according to this source.

00:27:19.619 --> 00:27:20.039
article.

00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:23.221
So it is quite a cyber attack and

00:27:23.280 --> 00:27:25.560
it seems to be very widespread.

00:27:25.641 --> 00:27:26.000
I know,

00:27:26.662 --> 00:27:27.862
I think it says it in this article

00:27:28.041 --> 00:27:28.701
too somewhere,

00:27:28.761 --> 00:27:31.022
but I just know Canvas is one of

00:27:31.063 --> 00:27:31.262
the,

00:27:31.383 --> 00:27:35.083
if not the largest learning management

00:27:35.123 --> 00:27:37.144
systems used by schools.

00:27:37.403 --> 00:27:42.325
So this is pretty extensive for sure.

00:27:42.865 --> 00:27:44.625
And I think what we're going to see

00:27:44.684 --> 00:27:45.806
out of this is

00:27:47.846 --> 00:27:49.626
I mean, especially if this data is leaked,

00:27:49.707 --> 00:27:51.826
but also, I mean,

00:27:52.326 --> 00:27:53.267
even if it's not leaked,

00:27:54.228 --> 00:27:56.988
these people could just keep the data

00:27:57.067 --> 00:27:57.468
anyways,

00:27:57.688 --> 00:27:58.868
or it could be leaked in the future,

00:27:58.929 --> 00:28:00.288
or they could just leak it anyways.

00:28:00.848 --> 00:28:03.910
I think there's really no way to guarantee

00:28:03.930 --> 00:28:05.529
for sure whether this data is going to

00:28:05.569 --> 00:28:06.349
make it out there or not,

00:28:06.390 --> 00:28:08.230
regardless of whether that ransom is paid.

00:28:09.090 --> 00:28:12.492
So I think this I mean,

00:28:12.532 --> 00:28:13.913
this will certainly be a big problem for

00:28:13.952 --> 00:28:15.273
students, also staff,

00:28:15.534 --> 00:28:17.474
and maybe not even immediately.

00:28:17.555 --> 00:28:19.695
All of this data could be used in

00:28:19.715 --> 00:28:21.737
the future for various attacks.

00:28:21.836 --> 00:28:27.259
I can imagine phishing attacks and other

00:28:28.799 --> 00:28:30.580
and other sorts of attacks against all of

00:28:30.621 --> 00:28:34.603
these students and and teachers to be very

00:28:36.223 --> 00:28:38.028
I think they'll be very prevalent if all

00:28:38.067 --> 00:28:39.009
of this data gets out.

00:28:39.049 --> 00:28:42.496
So yeah, that's pretty much the story.

00:28:42.557 --> 00:28:44.140
It's not great.

00:28:46.152 --> 00:28:49.535
As Jordan W. says,

00:28:49.555 --> 00:28:51.096
shaking my head with the centralization of

00:28:51.135 --> 00:28:53.917
everything on a single platform for

00:28:53.978 --> 00:28:54.317
learning.

00:28:54.679 --> 00:28:55.219
Yeah, I mean,

00:28:55.259 --> 00:28:57.141
this is definitely the big problem with

00:28:58.101 --> 00:28:59.162
decentralization.

00:28:59.942 --> 00:29:01.763
It's certainly a double-edged sword,

00:29:01.824 --> 00:29:03.005
and it's the kind of thing that we

00:29:03.045 --> 00:29:04.365
see in the school systems.

00:29:06.166 --> 00:29:06.827
With this,

00:29:07.208 --> 00:29:08.729
with a lot of different tech services,

00:29:08.788 --> 00:29:11.431
I know all of them have switched to

00:29:11.471 --> 00:29:12.731
Google Workspace, for example,

00:29:12.792 --> 00:29:14.574
and none of these centralized services are

00:29:15.034 --> 00:29:15.394
immune.

00:29:16.355 --> 00:29:19.337
um i know before the days of decentralized

00:29:19.357 --> 00:29:21.799
services schools would typically use

00:29:22.099 --> 00:29:24.281
various platforms or open source platforms

00:29:24.301 --> 00:29:29.546
like moodle um and there are downsides to

00:29:29.566 --> 00:29:32.669
that as well because then you're relying

00:29:32.929 --> 00:29:35.891
on the school or the district's i.t team

00:29:35.911 --> 00:29:37.451
to secure all of that which can have

00:29:37.491 --> 00:29:40.315
varying levels of quality and knowledge

00:29:40.335 --> 00:29:43.076
depending on what kind of people they can

00:29:43.116 --> 00:29:43.837
hire so

00:29:44.826 --> 00:29:46.609
That's certainly a problem as well,

00:29:46.710 --> 00:29:49.275
but certainly all of the centralization of

00:29:49.315 --> 00:29:51.719
data into a single database is also a

00:29:51.818 --> 00:29:52.559
huge concern.

00:29:54.403 --> 00:29:56.026
So yeah, you kind of lose

00:29:57.153 --> 00:29:58.554
Either way you go, really.

00:29:58.673 --> 00:29:59.674
But obviously,

00:30:00.276 --> 00:30:02.837
this sort of attack has a much larger

00:30:02.917 --> 00:30:04.298
impact because this is going to affect

00:30:05.220 --> 00:30:08.201
schools all around the US and maybe around

00:30:08.221 --> 00:30:08.541
the world.

00:30:08.622 --> 00:30:10.324
I don't know where Canvas is used.

00:30:10.403 --> 00:30:13.767
I know it's huge in the US here,

00:30:14.166 --> 00:30:17.048
but I would imagine they sell to other

00:30:17.068 --> 00:30:17.690
countries as well.

00:30:21.108 --> 00:30:21.729
Yeah, I agree.

00:30:22.028 --> 00:30:23.970
And, uh, yeah, like you said, this, this,

00:30:24.150 --> 00:30:25.330
um, this is a big story,

00:30:25.391 --> 00:30:26.471
which is kind of why we're talking about

00:30:26.530 --> 00:30:26.631
it.

00:30:26.931 --> 00:30:27.152
Um,

00:30:27.172 --> 00:30:28.971
so there's a lot of coverage out there.

00:30:29.071 --> 00:30:29.413
So, uh,

00:30:30.413 --> 00:30:32.233
there may be additional details in other

00:30:32.273 --> 00:30:32.634
articles.

00:30:32.673 --> 00:30:34.714
We tried our best to, um,

00:30:35.015 --> 00:30:36.675
pick bleeping computers are usually a

00:30:36.715 --> 00:30:38.256
pretty good source and some of their

00:30:38.276 --> 00:30:39.977
articles are actually like really super

00:30:40.037 --> 00:30:40.557
technical.

00:30:40.636 --> 00:30:41.758
So I like going to them.

00:30:41.817 --> 00:30:42.018
They're,

00:30:42.137 --> 00:30:43.459
they're one of the more reliable sources

00:30:43.479 --> 00:30:44.538
in my opinion, but yeah.

00:30:44.719 --> 00:30:46.540
Jordan says it's massive in Australia too.

00:30:46.661 --> 00:30:47.122
I would, yeah,

00:30:47.301 --> 00:30:49.523
I would imagine it's in a lot of

00:30:49.544 --> 00:30:50.065
different countries.

00:30:50.085 --> 00:30:53.188
I mean, that's a huge company.

00:30:53.208 --> 00:30:53.409
Yeah.

00:30:53.449 --> 00:30:55.211
This article didn't really specify where

00:30:55.250 --> 00:30:55.490
they're,

00:30:55.550 --> 00:30:57.252
which is unusual because usually they do

00:30:57.292 --> 00:30:57.913
say like, Oh,

00:30:57.953 --> 00:30:59.695
it's popular in like the U S and

00:30:59.715 --> 00:31:01.057
parts of Europe or something.

00:31:01.136 --> 00:31:02.097
But yeah.

00:31:02.278 --> 00:31:02.398
Um,

00:31:03.589 --> 00:31:05.871
Yeah, I mean this is the question, right?

00:31:06.070 --> 00:31:06.951
It's nice to have Jonah said,

00:31:06.971 --> 00:31:07.852
what do you think should happen?

00:31:07.872 --> 00:31:08.992
Make it illegal to pay ransoms?

00:31:09.032 --> 00:31:10.374
Find companies for bad security?

00:31:10.913 --> 00:31:13.355
I mean I think – I fully admit

00:31:13.375 --> 00:31:15.477
that I'm not an expert on this kind

00:31:15.497 --> 00:31:17.258
of stuff in terms of like what should

00:31:17.278 --> 00:31:17.657
we do.

00:31:17.718 --> 00:31:19.138
But I do think that's a good start

00:31:19.199 --> 00:31:20.880
is like I think we need mandatory

00:31:20.900 --> 00:31:22.800
disclosure laws because I remember there

00:31:22.820 --> 00:31:26.602
was a few years ago they raided –

00:31:25.708 --> 00:31:27.167
God, which ransomware gang was it?

00:31:27.208 --> 00:31:28.107
It was one of the big ones.

00:31:28.548 --> 00:31:30.429
Interpol shut them down and raided their

00:31:30.469 --> 00:31:32.348
servers, and we learned so much.

00:31:32.588 --> 00:31:34.670
They had hit so many more companies than

00:31:34.710 --> 00:31:35.970
we knew about because most of them just

00:31:36.069 --> 00:31:37.809
paid the ransom and made it go away.

00:31:39.549 --> 00:31:40.211
Made it go away.

00:31:41.030 --> 00:31:42.111
We learned that they,

00:31:42.131 --> 00:31:42.730
like you were saying,

00:31:42.750 --> 00:31:43.971
they never delete the data.

00:31:44.250 --> 00:31:45.571
That was something we learned is when we

00:31:45.612 --> 00:31:47.112
pulled their servers, it's like, oh, look,

00:31:47.392 --> 00:31:48.231
here's everybody,

00:31:48.352 --> 00:31:49.951
including the people who paid the ransoms.

00:31:49.971 --> 00:31:51.133
They never deleted the data like they

00:31:51.153 --> 00:31:51.673
promised they would.

00:31:51.692 --> 00:31:52.512
They just hold on to it.

00:31:52.972 --> 00:31:53.133
So...

00:31:54.492 --> 00:31:56.994
I don't think – and when they do

00:31:57.035 --> 00:31:57.815
pay the ransom,

00:31:57.994 --> 00:31:59.576
that just encourages them to keep doing

00:31:59.596 --> 00:31:59.915
it, right?

00:31:59.955 --> 00:32:03.038
If we make it not economical,

00:32:03.057 --> 00:32:03.999
they're going to stop doing it.

00:32:04.479 --> 00:32:05.519
At some point, eventually,

00:32:05.538 --> 00:32:06.339
they'll stop doing it.

00:32:06.420 --> 00:32:07.641
So it's really –

00:32:08.865 --> 00:32:09.646
I think that's a good start.

00:32:09.727 --> 00:32:10.287
And yeah, I do.

00:32:10.467 --> 00:32:11.327
I mean, personal opinion.

00:32:11.387 --> 00:32:13.390
I think the problem with bad security is

00:32:13.410 --> 00:32:16.231
that it's really hard to define in a

00:32:16.291 --> 00:32:16.872
legal sense.

00:32:16.971 --> 00:32:17.133
Like,

00:32:17.192 --> 00:32:18.453
I think there's certain things that like

00:32:19.233 --> 00:32:20.015
two FA, right?

00:32:20.174 --> 00:32:21.576
I mean, it's twenty twenty six, dude.

00:32:22.517 --> 00:32:24.218
No offense to any newbies watching this.

00:32:24.238 --> 00:32:25.159
I'm not trying to make you feel bad,

00:32:25.199 --> 00:32:26.038
but it's twenty twenty six.

00:32:26.098 --> 00:32:26.980
If you're not using two FA,

00:32:27.461 --> 00:32:29.342
you're you need to reconsider.

00:32:29.582 --> 00:32:30.242
I'll just say it that way.

00:32:31.635 --> 00:32:32.936
You know, and I mean, ideally, yes,

00:32:32.977 --> 00:32:34.136
it would be nice if they had good

00:32:34.176 --> 00:32:34.777
passwords,

00:32:34.817 --> 00:32:36.557
but that's kind of an ongoing debate right

00:32:36.577 --> 00:32:38.239
now is like what defines a good password.

00:32:38.298 --> 00:32:39.798
There's a lot of nuance to that,

00:32:39.878 --> 00:32:42.401
but it's, I mean,

00:32:42.421 --> 00:32:44.060
that's like little things.

00:32:44.101 --> 00:32:45.721
Like if you have something that was

00:32:45.862 --> 00:32:47.643
patched or like if you have,

00:32:48.282 --> 00:32:50.345
of vulnerability from six months ago that

00:32:50.365 --> 00:32:52.066
the patch was already released and you

00:32:52.125 --> 00:32:53.287
still haven't updated it and it's a

00:32:53.326 --> 00:32:54.208
critical vulnerability,

00:32:54.708 --> 00:32:56.549
I think we can all agree that's negligent.

00:32:56.710 --> 00:32:57.750
Like when you get closer to like a

00:32:57.810 --> 00:32:59.172
week lead time, like, I don't know,

00:32:59.211 --> 00:33:00.673
it's just my point being like,

00:33:00.692 --> 00:33:01.534
there's some nuance there,

00:33:01.554 --> 00:33:02.974
but I think there is a certain baseline

00:33:03.015 --> 00:33:03.655
we can establish.

00:33:03.675 --> 00:33:04.135
And it's like, yeah,

00:33:04.155 --> 00:33:05.217
you guys were just basically being

00:33:05.257 --> 00:33:06.157
negligent at this point.

00:33:06.357 --> 00:33:08.318
And unfortunately it's a,

00:33:08.398 --> 00:33:09.059
I've said this before.

00:33:09.099 --> 00:33:10.060
It's like a lot of these,

00:33:11.673 --> 00:33:14.375
A lot of these smaller, or not smaller,

00:33:14.914 --> 00:33:16.936
a lot of departments don't get the funding

00:33:16.957 --> 00:33:18.478
they deserve because the bean counters

00:33:18.498 --> 00:33:20.019
just look at them and all they see

00:33:20.058 --> 00:33:20.378
is red.

00:33:20.699 --> 00:33:22.279
So like cybersecurity, for example,

00:33:22.299 --> 00:33:23.320
they're always like, oh,

00:33:23.340 --> 00:33:25.982
we're always spending money on technicians

00:33:26.202 --> 00:33:27.844
and software and this and that.

00:33:28.243 --> 00:33:29.424
And it's just spending money and spending

00:33:29.464 --> 00:33:29.644
money.

00:33:29.664 --> 00:33:30.605
They never make us money.

00:33:30.645 --> 00:33:31.747
We're just losing money on that.

00:33:31.787 --> 00:33:32.386
And it's like, yeah,

00:33:32.788 --> 00:33:34.288
because that's what's keeping you from

00:33:34.308 --> 00:33:36.210
losing more money when something like this

00:33:36.250 --> 00:33:36.609
happens.

00:33:36.990 --> 00:33:39.051
So it's-

00:33:40.392 --> 00:33:40.472
Yeah.

00:33:40.492 --> 00:33:41.192
IT in general,

00:33:41.232 --> 00:33:43.153
it's always seen as like a cost center

00:33:43.173 --> 00:33:46.795
by businesses until you need them.

00:33:46.815 --> 00:33:48.675
The problem with IT in general is that

00:33:48.996 --> 00:33:51.478
I think the entire industry suffers from

00:33:51.597 --> 00:33:53.679
its own success because when everything is

00:33:53.719 --> 00:33:55.138
working properly, of course,

00:33:55.598 --> 00:33:57.099
you never notice it at all.

00:33:57.420 --> 00:33:58.780
Like it all just runs in the background.

00:33:58.800 --> 00:33:58.961
Exactly.

00:34:01.020 --> 00:34:01.922
Yeah, and then the last thing is,

00:34:01.942 --> 00:34:03.202
like you said, a centralization issue,

00:34:03.222 --> 00:34:04.384
which that one's harder, right?

00:34:04.423 --> 00:34:06.306
Because that's kind of one of the

00:34:06.326 --> 00:34:07.727
hallmarks of the free market is people

00:34:07.747 --> 00:34:10.148
should be able to go to whatever company

00:34:10.208 --> 00:34:11.610
has the features they need and makes the

00:34:11.630 --> 00:34:12.992
best sales pitch and whoever they want to

00:34:13.032 --> 00:34:13.431
go with.

00:34:13.472 --> 00:34:15.393
So the centralization thing I feel like is

00:34:15.494 --> 00:34:17.536
tricky, but I don't know.

00:34:17.556 --> 00:34:19.358
Maybe there's some levers we can pull

00:34:19.378 --> 00:34:20.818
there too to try to encourage a little

00:34:20.838 --> 00:34:21.599
bit more competition.

00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:22.260
I don't really know.

00:34:22.601 --> 00:34:23.961
That one's definitely above my pay grade,

00:34:23.981 --> 00:34:26.184
but it's all just kind of a big

00:34:26.184 --> 00:34:27.386
–

00:34:28.864 --> 00:34:30.206
know what the word i'm looking for is

00:34:30.246 --> 00:34:31.527
it's all just kind of a big soup

00:34:31.567 --> 00:34:33.708
of like a bunch of problems but even

00:34:33.728 --> 00:34:34.869
fixing a few of them i feel like

00:34:34.889 --> 00:34:38.530
would probably go a long way in my

00:34:38.550 --> 00:34:41.672
opinion yeah neville matthew uh on youtube

00:34:41.713 --> 00:34:43.974
points out same thing with epic uh

00:34:44.014 --> 00:34:45.574
electronic health record systems all

00:34:45.614 --> 00:34:47.376
hospitals use them uh that's a huge

00:34:47.396 --> 00:34:49.177
problem as well i mean the centralization

00:34:49.197 --> 00:34:50.438
uh that we're talking about this is

00:34:50.478 --> 00:34:51.398
happening among

00:34:52.119 --> 00:34:54.739
pretty much all industries at this point.

00:34:55.041 --> 00:34:58.202
So we're definitely putting all of our

00:34:58.242 --> 00:35:00.764
data in single gigantic baskets.

00:35:01.023 --> 00:35:03.144
And I really don't think that's a good

00:35:03.184 --> 00:35:03.304
thing,

00:35:03.324 --> 00:35:05.425
which is why I always suggest

00:35:06.206 --> 00:35:08.088
decentralization as much as possible.

00:35:09.949 --> 00:35:10.228
But

00:35:12.213 --> 00:35:14.014
not all organizations are going to do that

00:35:14.034 --> 00:35:15.755
and i think the unfortunate reality is

00:35:15.795 --> 00:35:18.057
that all of these organizations are going

00:35:18.117 --> 00:35:22.721
to choose the cheapest option um yeah i

00:35:22.740 --> 00:35:24.061
don't know if we pulled up this comment

00:35:24.141 --> 00:35:27.324
but nice step jonah said uh i'd rather

00:35:27.344 --> 00:35:29.045
use google workspace honestly google's

00:35:29.065 --> 00:35:30.347
locked into their security and their

00:35:30.367 --> 00:35:32.889
workspace privacy might not be terrible

00:35:34.422 --> 00:35:36.543
I mean, with Google Workspace,

00:35:36.623 --> 00:35:38.065
especially with the schools,

00:35:39.085 --> 00:35:40.226
you never know what they're doing with

00:35:40.266 --> 00:35:40.726
this data.

00:35:40.827 --> 00:35:42.467
But according to their privacy policies,

00:35:42.507 --> 00:35:45.230
it's all above board for students.

00:35:46.550 --> 00:35:48.831
But no company is perfect at security,

00:35:48.952 --> 00:35:50.594
and it's very possible that Google could

00:35:50.614 --> 00:35:51.673
have a breach someday.

00:35:52.175 --> 00:35:54.835
I think there's problems with all

00:35:55.076 --> 00:35:56.036
centralized services.

00:35:58.110 --> 00:35:59.052
kind of inherently.

00:35:59.112 --> 00:36:01.733
So I wouldn't just rule out the

00:36:01.773 --> 00:36:04.114
possibility that Google will suffer some

00:36:04.153 --> 00:36:05.954
sort of security issue in the future.

00:36:06.414 --> 00:36:08.615
I think a much bigger issue with all

00:36:08.655 --> 00:36:10.916
of these schools adopting Google Workspace

00:36:10.936 --> 00:36:12.858
for Education is just that it really

00:36:13.777 --> 00:36:14.719
normalizes

00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:20.260
I mean, the entire Google suite,

00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:21.722
a whole generation of students who are

00:36:21.762 --> 00:36:24.664
then going to demand that in the workspace

00:36:24.704 --> 00:36:26.284
and in their personal lives.

00:36:27.286 --> 00:36:29.947
People are just using alternatives like

00:36:30.307 --> 00:36:35.512
Microsoft Word or Apple Pages or whatever

00:36:35.592 --> 00:36:39.173
software was typically used in schools.

00:36:39.875 --> 00:36:40.936
And now they just...

00:36:41.596 --> 00:36:43.297
are used to Google Drive and used to

00:36:43.378 --> 00:36:44.159
Google Docs,

00:36:44.260 --> 00:36:46.503
and then they will grow up and they'll

00:36:46.523 --> 00:36:48.284
continue using that or they'll use it in

00:36:48.324 --> 00:36:51.349
college or they'll say to their employers,

00:36:51.389 --> 00:36:51.568
like,

00:36:51.588 --> 00:36:53.070
you should switch to all these Google

00:36:53.110 --> 00:36:53.532
services.

00:36:53.652 --> 00:36:57.757
That's really the big Google play here.

00:37:00.322 --> 00:37:01.663
And there used to be more companies in

00:37:01.702 --> 00:37:02.702
the education space.

00:37:02.822 --> 00:37:04.163
I mean, for a very long time,

00:37:05.063 --> 00:37:07.644
Apple was huge in the education space,

00:37:07.664 --> 00:37:10.385
and then they basically randomly gave up

00:37:10.646 --> 00:37:12.867
on supporting education customers,

00:37:12.887 --> 00:37:15.248
which is really dumb, in my opinion.

00:37:16.527 --> 00:37:18.389
You could certainly argue Apple isn't much

00:37:18.489 --> 00:37:18.809
better.

00:37:18.909 --> 00:37:19.989
And I would love to see...

00:37:21.070 --> 00:37:25.192
We talked maybe a couple episodes ago

00:37:25.211 --> 00:37:26.992
about these governments who are adopting

00:37:27.172 --> 00:37:28.572
Linux systems among...

00:37:29.480 --> 00:37:30.400
their own agencies.

00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:31.702
I would love to see something like that

00:37:31.762 --> 00:37:32.702
in schools too,

00:37:32.742 --> 00:37:35.025
where more of these education providers

00:37:35.085 --> 00:37:37.086
adopt open source software like Linux.

00:37:37.887 --> 00:37:40.068
But we're not really seeing that right

00:37:40.108 --> 00:37:40.289
now.

00:37:40.570 --> 00:37:42.231
And even when Apple was in the game,

00:37:44.652 --> 00:37:45.094
there was

00:37:46.164 --> 00:37:47.525
at least some competition here,

00:37:47.545 --> 00:37:48.804
which is always a good thing.

00:37:48.844 --> 00:37:50.246
You always want to see competition.

00:37:50.525 --> 00:37:51.045
And right now,

00:37:51.065 --> 00:37:53.246
Google kind of has a stranglehold on the

00:37:53.306 --> 00:37:55.268
entire education industry,

00:37:55.989 --> 00:37:56.648
which is not great.

00:37:56.909 --> 00:37:58.849
Maybe Apple will make a comeback with the

00:37:58.889 --> 00:37:59.630
MacBook Neo,

00:37:59.789 --> 00:38:03.731
but their software game has a very long

00:38:03.751 --> 00:38:06.233
way to go before they get back into

00:38:06.614 --> 00:38:08.514
a serious IT world, unfortunately.

00:38:10.695 --> 00:38:11.295
Yeah, I was going to say,

00:38:11.675 --> 00:38:13.036
I agree with the idea of like...

00:38:14.929 --> 00:38:16.409
Like I've complained about that.

00:38:16.891 --> 00:38:17.710
Not my last job,

00:38:17.731 --> 00:38:18.751
but the job before that.

00:38:19.251 --> 00:38:20.432
We were a very small company,

00:38:20.472 --> 00:38:21.873
like less than ten people total.

00:38:22.614 --> 00:38:23.896
And we used Google.

00:38:24.036 --> 00:38:24.717
We used Gmail.

00:38:24.737 --> 00:38:25.597
We used Google Drive.

00:38:25.617 --> 00:38:27.159
We used Google Sheets, Google everything.

00:38:27.858 --> 00:38:29.139
And then I moved to the bigger company

00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:30.460
that was like super, super corporate.

00:38:30.481 --> 00:38:31.242
And all of a sudden everything was

00:38:31.302 --> 00:38:31.942
Microsoft.

00:38:32.322 --> 00:38:33.563
And I remember just being like, God,

00:38:33.744 --> 00:38:35.385
I would give anything to go back to

00:38:35.425 --> 00:38:38.827
Google because Microsoft's UI is just –

00:38:37.907 --> 00:38:39.447
everything about Microsoft is terrible.

00:38:39.487 --> 00:38:40.088
Full stop.

00:38:40.588 --> 00:38:41.009
I don't care.

00:38:41.148 --> 00:38:41.548
It's bad.

00:38:41.668 --> 00:38:41.909
So,

00:38:42.309 --> 00:38:43.769
but I really appreciate what you're saying

00:38:43.789 --> 00:38:44.230
about like, yeah,

00:38:44.250 --> 00:38:45.911
but then you train people into that way

00:38:45.931 --> 00:38:47.052
of thinking and that's what they're going

00:38:47.072 --> 00:38:47.552
to want.

00:38:47.592 --> 00:38:51.333
And, um, but, uh, yeah.

00:38:51.373 --> 00:38:52.514
And another thing you said is just real

00:38:52.534 --> 00:38:52.695
quick.

00:38:52.795 --> 00:38:52.875
I'm,

00:38:53.054 --> 00:38:54.255
I've been saying for a long time and

00:38:54.275 --> 00:38:55.135
I know I'm not the only one that

00:38:55.155 --> 00:38:55.295
like,

00:38:55.356 --> 00:38:57.097
it blows my mind that public money can

00:38:57.117 --> 00:38:58.577
be spent on private things.

00:38:59.077 --> 00:38:59.358
So like,

00:38:59.438 --> 00:39:00.619
I usually say that in the context of

00:39:00.659 --> 00:39:01.960
policing and surveillance systems,

00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:02.780
but yeah,

00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:04.981
like Microsoft licenses for public

00:39:05.041 --> 00:39:05.501
offices.

00:39:05.521 --> 00:39:06.682
And it's like, dude, just switch to Linux.

00:39:06.722 --> 00:39:06.922
Like,

00:39:07.483 --> 00:39:09.766
And that's a new contract there too,

00:39:09.826 --> 00:39:10.025
right?

00:39:10.065 --> 00:39:12.969
Like somebody has to write this software

00:39:13.289 --> 00:39:15.032
for Linux so they can manage the lakes

00:39:15.092 --> 00:39:15.472
or whatever.

00:39:15.512 --> 00:39:16.974
Like, great, that's a new contract.

00:39:16.994 --> 00:39:18.016
We just made new jobs.

00:39:18.036 --> 00:39:19.597
So I don't know.

00:39:19.978 --> 00:39:20.778
Yeah, it's crazy.

00:39:21.585 --> 00:39:26.248
Yeah, the whole tech ecosystem in general,

00:39:26.327 --> 00:39:27.909
once you get into like proprietary stuff

00:39:27.949 --> 00:39:29.130
is not great because we've really

00:39:29.811 --> 00:39:32.632
transitioned to like full subscription

00:39:32.672 --> 00:39:33.253
services.

00:39:34.733 --> 00:39:36.155
I used to work at a school district

00:39:36.195 --> 00:39:37.315
and towards the end of that,

00:39:37.916 --> 00:39:39.938
Google changed their education pricing.

00:39:40.818 --> 00:39:41.958
I think it was around like when the

00:39:42.199 --> 00:39:43.701
pandemic was happening and there was a

00:39:43.940 --> 00:39:45.422
huge push for remote learning,

00:39:45.862 --> 00:39:47.282
but they were basically like, okay,

00:39:47.302 --> 00:39:47.784
all of these

00:39:48.483 --> 00:39:51.666
features that all these schools want now

00:39:51.686 --> 00:39:53.188
we're going to be charging something a

00:39:53.228 --> 00:39:54.608
month and it was still a lot cheaper

00:39:54.648 --> 00:39:57.490
than like Google workspace for businesses,

00:39:57.510 --> 00:39:59.411
but it just goes to show that like,

00:39:59.692 --> 00:40:03.715
all of this free stuff can't and really

00:40:03.795 --> 00:40:05.677
never does last forever,

00:40:05.856 --> 00:40:07.918
even for schools and nonprofits.

00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:10.621
Google's whole plan is not just to lock

00:40:10.641 --> 00:40:12.722
students into this Google ecosystem,

00:40:12.742 --> 00:40:15.483
but also to lock schools and districts

00:40:15.603 --> 00:40:16.105
into

00:40:17.793 --> 00:40:19.574
having to do whatever Google says,

00:40:19.614 --> 00:40:20.076
basically,

00:40:20.115 --> 00:40:21.858
because now they're kind of stuck with all

00:40:21.898 --> 00:40:23.179
of the software and all their Chromebooks

00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:26.762
and Google can kind of charge whatever

00:40:26.782 --> 00:40:27.965
they want if they want to.

00:40:27.985 --> 00:40:29.827
And it's very unlikely that any of them

00:40:30.086 --> 00:40:30.987
will switch at this point,

00:40:31.228 --> 00:40:34.092
which is a shame.

00:40:34.132 --> 00:40:35.152
Yeah, very good point.

00:40:38.248 --> 00:40:39.829
I think that's all we have on that

00:40:39.869 --> 00:40:40.311
story.

00:40:40.891 --> 00:40:41.552
In a minute,

00:40:41.652 --> 00:40:43.474
we're going to talk about Microsoft Edge

00:40:43.713 --> 00:40:44.715
and passwords.

00:40:44.974 --> 00:40:46.637
And boy, that's a wild one.

00:40:47.177 --> 00:40:47.657
But first,

00:40:47.757 --> 00:40:49.239
we're going to talk about what we've been

00:40:49.259 --> 00:40:51.621
working on this week at Privacy Guides.

00:40:51.661 --> 00:40:52.963
So like I mentioned at the beginning,

00:40:53.003 --> 00:40:53.282
it's been...

00:40:54.164 --> 00:40:54.344
You know,

00:40:54.364 --> 00:40:56.567
we kind of go through ups and downs,

00:40:56.606 --> 00:40:56.786
right?

00:40:56.827 --> 00:40:58.309
Like we kind of go through periods where

00:40:58.568 --> 00:40:59.811
we're releasing a bunch of stuff and then

00:40:59.831 --> 00:41:01.353
we go through periods where it seems like

00:41:01.373 --> 00:41:02.333
we're a little bit more quiet.

00:41:02.733 --> 00:41:04.556
But that's because it's just we're always

00:41:04.597 --> 00:41:05.297
working behind the scenes.

00:41:05.336 --> 00:41:06.177
I mean, we're always working,

00:41:06.219 --> 00:41:07.619
but sometimes there's just a lot happens

00:41:07.659 --> 00:41:08.061
at once.

00:41:08.121 --> 00:41:10.103
And I think the last few weeks have

00:41:10.123 --> 00:41:10.643
been like that.

00:41:10.704 --> 00:41:11.764
So, for example.

00:41:12.465 --> 00:41:13.965
I'm going to share this little tab here.

00:41:14.025 --> 00:41:17.666
We have just released today a new video

00:41:17.786 --> 00:41:20.186
about how to run a Signal proxy.

00:41:22.168 --> 00:41:23.228
And we talk about this in the video

00:41:23.248 --> 00:41:23.748
for the record,

00:41:23.807 --> 00:41:25.527
but there are alternatives to Signal,

00:41:25.568 --> 00:41:27.528
but censorship is on the rise and Signal

00:41:27.648 --> 00:41:29.409
is around the world for the record.

00:41:29.509 --> 00:41:31.048
And Signal is an extremely popular

00:41:31.068 --> 00:41:31.489
messenger.

00:41:31.889 --> 00:41:33.969
So you could try to get your friends

00:41:33.989 --> 00:41:35.309
and family to switch to something like

00:41:35.469 --> 00:41:36.530
SimpleX or Briar,

00:41:37.150 --> 00:41:39.791
or you could look into Signal proxies as

00:41:39.811 --> 00:41:41.010
a way to help around with that.

00:41:41.070 --> 00:41:41.231
So

00:41:42.311 --> 00:41:43.052
Yeah, if you're a member,

00:41:43.311 --> 00:41:44.813
that's already available on YouTube.

00:41:45.672 --> 00:41:46.893
If you are a Privacy Guides member,

00:41:46.934 --> 00:41:48.393
like you went to privacyguides.org slash

00:41:48.434 --> 00:41:50.516
donate and you're a member, it's also,

00:41:50.556 --> 00:41:51.916
I believe, available on PeerTube.

00:41:52.916 --> 00:41:54.338
And we share that link directly in the

00:41:54.378 --> 00:41:55.358
member section of the forum,

00:41:55.478 --> 00:41:56.778
or I believe you also get it in

00:41:56.998 --> 00:41:57.559
your inbox.

00:41:57.739 --> 00:41:58.320
So yeah.

00:41:58.920 --> 00:41:59.960
Those are options there.

00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:02.583
And then that'll be coming out to the

00:42:02.623 --> 00:42:03.403
public next week.

00:42:03.423 --> 00:42:04.724
We usually release those about a week

00:42:04.744 --> 00:42:05.626
early for members.

00:42:06.106 --> 00:42:07.628
And then we have an awesome interview

00:42:07.668 --> 00:42:08.288
coming soon.

00:42:08.969 --> 00:42:10.010
Hopefully next week.

00:42:10.170 --> 00:42:11.871
Depends how much editing we have to do.

00:42:12.012 --> 00:42:14.673
But I don't want to say too much.

00:42:14.733 --> 00:42:15.655
It's just really exciting.

00:42:15.675 --> 00:42:16.675
It was a great interview.

00:42:16.755 --> 00:42:17.516
I had a lot of fun.

00:42:18.097 --> 00:42:20.018
And it will include a bonus section,

00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:21.420
again, for paying members.

00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:24.081
Yeah, excited to share that.

00:42:24.181 --> 00:42:25.443
And actually on the topic of memberships,

00:42:25.523 --> 00:42:26.884
I just I keep forgetting to tell you

00:42:26.903 --> 00:42:28.764
guys that we're actually now posting the

00:42:28.784 --> 00:42:30.867
show notes for the show in the members

00:42:30.907 --> 00:42:31.447
only section.

00:42:32.447 --> 00:42:33.347
So throughout the week,

00:42:33.367 --> 00:42:34.728
you guys can see what stories we're

00:42:34.748 --> 00:42:36.429
considering discussing and stuff like

00:42:36.451 --> 00:42:36.630
that.

00:42:36.811 --> 00:42:39.693
So definitely check that out if you're

00:42:39.733 --> 00:42:40.152
interested.

00:42:40.393 --> 00:42:41.753
And I'll turn it over to Jonah to

00:42:41.793 --> 00:42:42.755
talk about what else we've been doing.

00:42:43.304 --> 00:42:45.567
We definitely got a lot of requests for

00:42:45.586 --> 00:42:46.748
that because people wanted to ask

00:42:46.789 --> 00:42:49.271
questions about the stories we would talk

00:42:49.291 --> 00:42:49.931
about on the show,

00:42:49.992 --> 00:42:53.456
but I know this show time isn't ideal

00:42:53.496 --> 00:42:53.976
for everyone.

00:42:54.036 --> 00:42:55.898
It's pretty late in the year right now,

00:42:55.918 --> 00:42:57.179
so I know a lot of people skip

00:42:57.199 --> 00:42:57.981
it and watch it later.

00:42:58.380 --> 00:43:01.083
So hopefully that helps out some people

00:43:01.123 --> 00:43:03.387
with getting your questions answered

00:43:03.427 --> 00:43:04.768
during the Q&A that we have at the

00:43:04.788 --> 00:43:05.349
end of the show.

00:43:06.478 --> 00:43:07.719
In other Privacy Guides news,

00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:12.344
the biggest thing that we launched this

00:43:12.425 --> 00:43:15.509
week is a new DPA directory.

00:43:16.289 --> 00:43:17.831
This is a tool that we have in

00:43:17.972 --> 00:43:19.172
our Activism section,

00:43:19.253 --> 00:43:21.416
which you can find at privacyguides.org

00:43:21.536 --> 00:43:22.717
slash activism,

00:43:22.876 --> 00:43:24.920
or you can click the Activism tab at

00:43:24.940 --> 00:43:25.900
the top of our website.

00:43:27.202 --> 00:43:30.684
And the DPA directory is basically a tool

00:43:30.704 --> 00:43:33.947
that will help you find the main consumer

00:43:33.987 --> 00:43:37.168
privacy law in your area or region or

00:43:37.208 --> 00:43:41.871
country that describes what privacy rights

00:43:41.911 --> 00:43:45.195
you have as a consumer and the authority

00:43:45.215 --> 00:43:47.155
that's mandated to enforce the law,

00:43:47.215 --> 00:43:48.356
which is very important.

00:43:49.998 --> 00:43:53.639
because you should know where to report

00:43:53.659 --> 00:43:56.780
these privacy violations and what privacy

00:43:56.820 --> 00:43:58.760
violations may even be occurring.

00:43:58.840 --> 00:44:00.001
I think for a lot of countries,

00:44:00.041 --> 00:44:04.443
there are more protections than you might

00:44:04.503 --> 00:44:04.782
think.

00:44:04.862 --> 00:44:06.543
Of course, in a lot of countries,

00:44:07.224 --> 00:44:09.985
I would definitely say the protections

00:44:10.025 --> 00:44:11.626
could go quite a bit further,

00:44:11.985 --> 00:44:12.905
but anything helps.

00:44:13.126 --> 00:44:17.047
And reporting privacy violations by...

00:44:17.807 --> 00:44:19.829
companies that you interact with not only

00:44:19.869 --> 00:44:21.871
has a benefit for you personally,

00:44:21.931 --> 00:44:23.813
but it has a huge benefit for your

00:44:23.833 --> 00:44:27.376
entire community because it causes these

00:44:27.396 --> 00:44:28.717
companies to make changes that will

00:44:28.757 --> 00:44:30.938
ultimately improve the privacy for anyone

00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:33.001
who are using these products or services.

00:44:33.442 --> 00:44:35.664
So definitely check it out.

00:44:36.344 --> 00:44:37.545
Find your region on there.

00:44:37.565 --> 00:44:39.626
We have at the top of the directory,

00:44:39.706 --> 00:44:42.268
we have buttons where you can click by

00:44:42.389 --> 00:44:43.250
continent, basically,

00:44:43.289 --> 00:44:44.110
and then you can find

00:44:45.614 --> 00:44:46.255
whatever country.

00:44:46.655 --> 00:44:48.538
If your country isn't listed,

00:44:50.360 --> 00:44:52.882
either we couldn't find anything.

00:44:54.063 --> 00:44:54.905
We were able to do it for a

00:44:54.945 --> 00:44:55.485
lot of countries,

00:44:55.525 --> 00:44:57.367
but certainly not all of them.

00:44:57.907 --> 00:45:00.650
We hope to continue updating this with

00:45:00.710 --> 00:45:02.632
more information as we can and as we

00:45:02.672 --> 00:45:02.952
get it.

00:45:03.753 --> 00:45:04.454
If your country

00:45:06.579 --> 00:45:08.201
isn't listed or if some of the information

00:45:08.221 --> 00:45:11.983
you want to update or what have you,

00:45:13.105 --> 00:45:16.306
definitely submit a PR or even open a

00:45:16.367 --> 00:45:18.889
topic on the forum sharing what

00:45:18.949 --> 00:45:20.791
information you want us to add or change

00:45:20.811 --> 00:45:22.612
and we can get that updated.

00:45:24.273 --> 00:45:25.974
Or just let us know what country you

00:45:26.014 --> 00:45:27.516
want us to update and we can look

00:45:27.576 --> 00:45:28.117
into it as well.

00:45:28.376 --> 00:45:29.998
Whatever works for all of you,

00:45:30.318 --> 00:45:32.000
we definitely want to keep this updated

00:45:32.099 --> 00:45:33.460
and get as much information out as

00:45:33.521 --> 00:45:33.922
possible,

00:45:34.021 --> 00:45:34.202
so

00:45:36.422 --> 00:45:38.503
you can share uh what information you

00:45:38.523 --> 00:45:40.706
would find most helpful here and hopefully

00:45:40.726 --> 00:45:43.567
we can continue to build more legal

00:45:43.626 --> 00:45:45.548
resources and other resources like this in

00:45:45.588 --> 00:45:47.630
our activism section going forward so

00:45:47.650 --> 00:45:50.592
we'll continue to keep you updated with

00:45:51.132 --> 00:45:54.773
that um thank you carrie from fireworks

00:45:55.094 --> 00:45:57.356
firewalls don't stop dragons uh for the

00:45:57.416 --> 00:45:59.536
compliment i totally agree it is another

00:45:59.617 --> 00:46:02.139
fantastic resource um it's one of the

00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:04.119
final resources that are

00:46:04.619 --> 00:46:07.083
former staff member m uh worked on with

00:46:07.202 --> 00:46:10.126
us and it it came out really great

00:46:10.166 --> 00:46:13.590
so i hope people find it very valuable

00:46:14.090 --> 00:46:15.793
um that was the main update that came

00:46:15.833 --> 00:46:18.697
out with our uh may release of all

00:46:18.737 --> 00:46:20.378
the changes on our website i believe all

00:46:20.418 --> 00:46:23.722
of the other changes were pretty minor um

00:46:24.083 --> 00:46:24.603
we just

00:46:27.014 --> 00:46:29.394
updated some information that was outdated

00:46:29.434 --> 00:46:30.335
and changed some logos.

00:46:30.375 --> 00:46:32.356
So not a lot of huge changes besides

00:46:32.576 --> 00:46:32.916
that.

00:46:33.315 --> 00:46:34.795
But, you know,

00:46:34.815 --> 00:46:36.376
we're always changing the site,

00:46:36.416 --> 00:46:37.936
making sure everything stays up to date.

00:46:38.237 --> 00:46:42.159
So hopefully we'll see more changes in the

00:46:42.179 --> 00:46:42.438
future.

00:46:42.478 --> 00:46:44.278
I know we have twenty six pull requests

00:46:44.358 --> 00:46:44.938
open right now.

00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:48.260
So a lot of updates that we're hoping

00:46:48.280 --> 00:46:49.541
to get made as soon as we can

00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:50.300
review them.

00:46:53.266 --> 00:46:55.927
this is episode fifty two of the show

00:46:55.967 --> 00:46:57.807
which means that we've been doing this

00:46:57.847 --> 00:47:01.068
every week for a full year which is

00:47:01.228 --> 00:47:05.949
fantastic it's it's been a lot of work

00:47:06.309 --> 00:47:10.210
to get this oh great Nate's celebrating if

00:47:10.271 --> 00:47:12.652
it works I think it's busted now I

00:47:12.672 --> 00:47:13.572
have a whole bag of them I'll find

00:47:13.592 --> 00:47:14.632
another one I had to buy these for

00:47:14.652 --> 00:47:15.913
a video one time it was like five

00:47:15.932 --> 00:47:16.893
bucks so now I don't know what to

00:47:16.913 --> 00:47:17.233
do with them

00:47:17.773 --> 00:47:18.552
I had another one.

00:47:18.612 --> 00:47:19.773
But yeah,

00:47:21.635 --> 00:47:23.416
hiring Nate to get these done has been

00:47:23.896 --> 00:47:25.456
a real game changer for this entire show

00:47:25.476 --> 00:47:27.677
because we can really do this more

00:47:27.777 --> 00:47:28.478
reliably.

00:47:29.139 --> 00:47:30.500
And yeah,

00:47:30.539 --> 00:47:32.561
we plan to continue doing this every week

00:47:32.601 --> 00:47:33.902
for the foreseeable future.

00:47:36.039 --> 00:47:38.760
News briefs are another big thing that we

00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:41.601
do almost every day, pretty much.

00:47:41.681 --> 00:47:42.862
Freya works very hard on those,

00:47:42.902 --> 00:47:44.322
but we have other people on the team

00:47:44.342 --> 00:47:45.224
publishing those as well.

00:47:45.284 --> 00:47:47.063
I know Nate writes some of them on

00:47:47.083 --> 00:47:47.644
occasion.

00:47:48.085 --> 00:47:51.206
And this week we had updates on copy

00:47:51.246 --> 00:47:54.447
fail, ChatGPT advanced account security,

00:47:54.869 --> 00:47:57.530
Fedora releasing sealed bootable container

00:47:57.590 --> 00:48:00.210
images, which is super cool.

00:48:00.251 --> 00:48:01.692
Definitely look into that if you're using

00:48:01.731 --> 00:48:03.072
Fedora, it's good for security.

00:48:04.014 --> 00:48:06.056
RCS end-to-end encryption in iOS,

00:48:06.117 --> 00:48:10.182
which I actually downloaded on my phone,

00:48:10.242 --> 00:48:13.226
but I haven't been able to use it

00:48:13.246 --> 00:48:13.847
too much yet.

00:48:14.248 --> 00:48:16.472
So hopefully it improves a bit soon.

00:48:17.242 --> 00:48:18.463
Disneyland, California,

00:48:18.764 --> 00:48:19.943
facial recognition,

00:48:20.503 --> 00:48:22.985
the FCC banning a data broker from selling

00:48:23.025 --> 00:48:23.706
location data,

00:48:24.346 --> 00:48:26.467
ProtonMail launching post-quantum

00:48:26.527 --> 00:48:26.967
encryption,

00:48:26.987 --> 00:48:28.487
which I believe we are going to talk

00:48:28.507 --> 00:48:30.108
about later on in this stream,

00:48:30.168 --> 00:48:31.208
if that's of interest to you,

00:48:31.349 --> 00:48:32.668
certainly of interest to me,

00:48:33.670 --> 00:48:34.570
Chrome for Android,

00:48:34.869 --> 00:48:36.811
including approximate location,

00:48:36.831 --> 00:48:38.652
which is a new web standard that'll

00:48:38.692 --> 00:48:40.291
hopefully make sharing a location with

00:48:40.331 --> 00:48:41.992
websites a bit more private,

00:48:42.672 --> 00:48:45.253
and two more major Linux vulnerabilities

00:48:45.313 --> 00:48:46.474
in the same class as

00:48:46.835 --> 00:48:47.715
copy fail.

00:48:48.295 --> 00:48:51.195
So a lot of news briefs,

00:48:51.295 --> 00:48:52.956
we can't talk about all of the news

00:48:53.175 --> 00:48:54.775
on this show specifically,

00:48:55.215 --> 00:48:59.936
but we try and keep all of the

00:49:00.356 --> 00:49:02.458
news briefs updated with the biggest stuff

00:49:02.478 --> 00:49:03.358
that we can't discuss.

00:49:03.378 --> 00:49:04.577
So if any of those things sound

00:49:04.637 --> 00:49:05.458
interesting to you,

00:49:05.518 --> 00:49:07.778
you can find that under the news tab

00:49:08.199 --> 00:49:09.958
at privacyguides.org,

00:49:09.978 --> 00:49:11.478
and we'll continue updating that and

00:49:11.518 --> 00:49:13.659
updating our form with all of the news

00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:14.840
stories we can find.

00:49:15.760 --> 00:49:16.760
All of the stuff that we do at

00:49:16.780 --> 00:49:19.041
Privacy Guides here, again,

00:49:19.081 --> 00:49:19.882
like I said earlier,

00:49:19.902 --> 00:49:23.324
it's all supported by our generous members

00:49:23.344 --> 00:49:24.485
and other one-time donors.

00:49:24.804 --> 00:49:26.405
You can sign up for a membership or

00:49:26.525 --> 00:49:29.166
donate at privacyguides.org slash donate.

00:49:29.387 --> 00:49:30.628
Or if you want to support us by

00:49:30.688 --> 00:49:31.947
picking up some swag at

00:49:32.068 --> 00:49:33.528
shop.privacyguides.org,

00:49:33.668 --> 00:49:35.010
that is great as well.

00:49:35.570 --> 00:49:38.431
Privacy Guides here is a nonprofit

00:49:38.452 --> 00:49:38.692
organization.

00:49:39.032 --> 00:49:40.952
and we research and share privacy-related

00:49:41.032 --> 00:49:43.393
information and we facilitate a community

00:49:43.634 --> 00:49:48.556
on our forum and other platforms to share

00:49:48.596 --> 00:49:51.777
advice, ask questions,

00:49:53.297 --> 00:49:55.077
get updated on the news with other people

00:49:55.097 --> 00:49:59.400
who are in this privacy activist space.

00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:01.400
So it's a great place,

00:50:01.721 --> 00:50:02.661
especially our forum,

00:50:03.721 --> 00:50:05.362
to get advice about staying private online

00:50:05.822 --> 00:50:08.043
and preserving your digital rights.

00:50:09.871 --> 00:50:10.853
I think that's my spiel.

00:50:11.492 --> 00:50:13.514
We can move on to talking about how

00:50:13.594 --> 00:50:16.436
Chrome has been downloading some AI stuff

00:50:16.456 --> 00:50:18.197
to your device without telling you.

00:50:18.538 --> 00:50:20.079
Well, maybe not you specifically.

00:50:20.099 --> 00:50:22.101
You're probably not using Google Chrome,

00:50:23.021 --> 00:50:24.143
but Google Chrome users.

00:50:24.202 --> 00:50:26.023
Yeah,

00:50:26.063 --> 00:50:28.226
hopefully if you're watching the show,

00:50:29.166 --> 00:50:32.768
you know that Chrome is basically spyware,

00:50:32.929 --> 00:50:34.730
and that's not much of an exaggeration,

00:50:35.150 --> 00:50:35.751
unfortunately.

00:50:36.172 --> 00:50:38.753
Warn a friend about it.

00:50:38.793 --> 00:50:39.094
What's that?

00:50:40.048 --> 00:50:41.550
Be sure to warn a friend about it.

00:50:42.150 --> 00:50:42.851
Yeah, no kidding.

00:50:43.532 --> 00:50:44.092
Pass that on.

00:50:44.793 --> 00:50:46.155
Friends don't let friends use Chrome,

00:50:46.556 --> 00:50:47.036
but seriously.

00:50:48.077 --> 00:50:51.942
So yeah,

00:50:52.682 --> 00:50:54.824
the latest Tomfoolery from Google Chrome

00:50:55.346 --> 00:50:57.168
is that they have been quietly pushing a

00:50:57.228 --> 00:50:59.449
four gigabyte AI model to your device

00:50:59.469 --> 00:51:00.110
without asking.

00:51:00.811 --> 00:51:01.572
Correct me if I'm wrong.

00:51:02.429 --> 00:51:05.791
But I actually did some digging into this

00:51:05.811 --> 00:51:06.771
and I was trying to put the four

00:51:06.851 --> 00:51:08.851
gigabytes number into context.

00:51:09.472 --> 00:51:11.293
And if I did my research right,

00:51:11.773 --> 00:51:13.934
that is about, what is that?

00:51:14.135 --> 00:51:16.376
About eight hundred to a thousand songs,

00:51:16.675 --> 00:51:18.456
depending on how big the file is,

00:51:18.476 --> 00:51:19.637
how long the songs are and stuff.

00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:22.059
What is it?

00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:23.880
It's like a similar amount of photos.

00:51:23.920 --> 00:51:25.001
But the one that got me is that's

00:51:25.021 --> 00:51:28.262
about four to six hours of high quality,

00:51:28.322 --> 00:51:29.362
not like four K, I think,

00:51:29.382 --> 00:51:31.224
but like high quality video footage.

00:51:32.318 --> 00:51:34.445
Which is longer than the extended edition

00:51:34.465 --> 00:51:35.309
of Return of the Kings.

00:51:36.072 --> 00:51:36.653
And that just...

00:51:39.393 --> 00:51:40.612
That was my favorite thing I learned from

00:51:40.672 --> 00:51:41.233
researching this.

00:51:41.914 --> 00:51:43.235
So anyways, yeah,

00:51:43.295 --> 00:51:44.936
so Chrome has been pushing this AI model

00:51:45.016 --> 00:51:45.675
onto your device.

00:51:45.755 --> 00:51:46.737
It's Gemini Nano.

00:51:47.817 --> 00:51:49.757
The article I don't think explicitly says

00:51:49.777 --> 00:51:50.518
it's on desktop,

00:51:50.878 --> 00:51:52.139
but it seems to imply that it's on

00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:54.940
desktop because it says that right here it

00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:57.121
says deleting the folder doesn't offer

00:51:57.161 --> 00:51:57.802
lasting relief.

00:51:57.822 --> 00:51:59.103
Chrome will simply redownload it.

00:51:59.182 --> 00:52:00.684
On Windows, the folder is here.

00:52:00.744 --> 00:52:02.144
It has also been confirmed on Apple

00:52:02.164 --> 00:52:03.706
Silicon and Ubuntu machines.

00:52:04.166 --> 00:52:06.027
So I think it's specifically on desktop.

00:52:07.987 --> 00:52:08.768
The weird thing is,

00:52:08.809 --> 00:52:09.688
from what I can tell,

00:52:09.949 --> 00:52:11.610
this does not seem to be...

00:52:13.231 --> 00:52:16.391
Because a lot of Apple and Google are

00:52:16.452 --> 00:52:17.733
trying to do more,

00:52:17.833 --> 00:52:18.753
especially on mobile phones,

00:52:19.094 --> 00:52:21.074
they're trying to do a lot of AI

00:52:21.094 --> 00:52:22.375
processing on device.

00:52:23.115 --> 00:52:24.476
And I think for most of them,

00:52:24.496 --> 00:52:27.117
that has more to do with performance than

00:52:27.177 --> 00:52:27.637
privacy.

00:52:27.677 --> 00:52:28.157
But of course,

00:52:28.438 --> 00:52:29.958
never miss a good PR opportunity.

00:52:29.998 --> 00:52:30.478
So they're like, oh,

00:52:30.498 --> 00:52:31.360
it's also really private.

00:52:31.380 --> 00:52:33.221
And it's like, meh.

00:52:33.240 --> 00:52:34.722
So I think they try to do things

00:52:34.762 --> 00:52:35.121
on device.

00:52:35.161 --> 00:52:35.922
But from what I can tell,

00:52:35.942 --> 00:52:37.063
if I remember this correctly...

00:52:38.172 --> 00:52:39.733
Um, yeah, it says here,

00:52:39.773 --> 00:52:41.273
the downloads carry a notable irony.

00:52:41.313 --> 00:52:42.994
Chrome's most visible AI feature,

00:52:43.273 --> 00:52:45.034
the AI mode integrated into the address

00:52:45.054 --> 00:52:46.815
bar and Google search runs on Google

00:52:46.835 --> 00:52:48.396
servers rather than the locally stored

00:52:48.436 --> 00:52:48.715
weights.

00:52:49.036 --> 00:52:50.436
The four gig folder is only used for

00:52:50.496 --> 00:52:52.277
writing assistance and a handful of other

00:52:52.358 --> 00:52:54.318
accessible or a handful of other features

00:52:54.617 --> 00:52:56.278
accessible, several menus deep.

00:52:56.938 --> 00:52:58.159
So it's not even like the,

00:52:58.179 --> 00:52:59.940
the most commonly used things that they

00:52:59.960 --> 00:53:00.561
would put on there.

00:53:00.721 --> 00:53:02.661
It's just such a weird, weird choice.

00:53:03.541 --> 00:53:03.722
Um,

00:53:05.219 --> 00:53:06.619
I don't know.

00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:06.719
Yeah.

00:53:07.099 --> 00:53:08.902
So going back here, again,

00:53:08.942 --> 00:53:09.842
if you uninstall it,

00:53:10.302 --> 00:53:11.782
it just reinstalls itself.

00:53:12.224 --> 00:53:13.224
I do appreciate this article.

00:53:13.324 --> 00:53:14.905
Uninstalling Chrome entirely is the most

00:53:14.925 --> 00:53:15.965
effective way to remove it.

00:53:16.746 --> 00:53:17.086
However,

00:53:17.106 --> 00:53:18.467
for those who wish to continue using it,

00:53:18.507 --> 00:53:19.849
you can disable it by going into the

00:53:19.869 --> 00:53:22.251
Chrome flags and finding an item called

00:53:22.351 --> 00:53:24.152
Enables Optimization Guide on Device on

00:53:24.211 --> 00:53:25.592
Android and selecting Disabled.

00:53:26.233 --> 00:53:27.853
So apparently,

00:53:27.893 --> 00:53:29.114
that basically just tells it that your

00:53:29.155 --> 00:53:30.576
device can't handle it,

00:53:30.635 --> 00:53:31.396
whether that's true or not.

00:53:32.327 --> 00:53:32.847
So, yeah.

00:53:34.347 --> 00:53:36.289
And then it looks like somebody is already

00:53:36.690 --> 00:53:38.170
accusing Google of violating European

00:53:38.210 --> 00:53:39.251
privacy regulations.

00:53:39.851 --> 00:53:43.333
And I unironically wish them the best

00:53:43.494 --> 00:53:46.235
because I want to see these companies sued

00:53:46.315 --> 00:53:46.936
every single... You know,

00:53:48.556 --> 00:53:49.317
we've mocked many,

00:53:49.356 --> 00:53:50.958
many times how when these companies get

00:53:51.018 --> 00:53:52.139
sued, it's always like, oh,

00:53:52.498 --> 00:53:54.159
they got sued for four million dollars.

00:53:54.219 --> 00:53:54.800
And it's like, bro...

00:53:56.380 --> 00:53:57.442
who's, who's in charge of Google?

00:53:57.461 --> 00:53:57.981
Sergey Brin.

00:53:58.242 --> 00:53:58.762
Did he move on?

00:53:58.782 --> 00:53:59.123
I don't know.

00:53:59.143 --> 00:54:00.623
Whoever the guy in charge of Google,

00:54:00.664 --> 00:54:02.103
it's like his shoes probably cost four

00:54:02.143 --> 00:54:02.664
million dollars.

00:54:02.724 --> 00:54:03.425
Like that's nothing.

00:54:03.465 --> 00:54:03.905
They don't care.

00:54:04.286 --> 00:54:06.086
But my hope is that if we keep

00:54:06.126 --> 00:54:06.547
doing this,

00:54:06.586 --> 00:54:07.947
maybe it'll be like death by a thousand

00:54:07.987 --> 00:54:08.288
cuts.

00:54:08.367 --> 00:54:09.768
Like if we just do them every single

00:54:09.809 --> 00:54:10.628
time it happens,

00:54:11.148 --> 00:54:12.590
maybe eventually it'll start to add up.

00:54:12.610 --> 00:54:13.471
I don't know, man.

00:54:13.570 --> 00:54:14.411
I'm trying to be an optimist.

00:54:14.831 --> 00:54:16.172
I realize I'm probably delusional, but,

00:54:16.731 --> 00:54:17.472
uh, yeah.

00:54:17.552 --> 00:54:19.994
So I mean, I,

00:54:20.054 --> 00:54:21.275
I think we kind of, to, uh,

00:54:21.414 --> 00:54:23.876
hit our, our main points going into it,

00:54:23.956 --> 00:54:24.657
but, um,

00:54:25.936 --> 00:54:28.878
Well, let me start by saying,

00:54:28.898 --> 00:54:31.378
I don't know.

00:54:33.420 --> 00:54:34.360
I guess I'll really just jump to it

00:54:34.380 --> 00:54:35.840
and say we don't recommend Chrome.

00:54:36.521 --> 00:54:37.342
I mean,

00:54:38.021 --> 00:54:39.583
in addition to just doing crap like this

00:54:39.682 --> 00:54:41.244
all the time that's incredibly hostile to

00:54:41.344 --> 00:54:43.625
users, that's incredibly unfair to users,

00:54:44.065 --> 00:54:45.085
that's really, really sneaky,

00:54:45.465 --> 00:54:46.626
I think it's so funny how they always

00:54:46.646 --> 00:54:47.686
try to roll these things out that they're

00:54:47.706 --> 00:54:48.927
like, oh, but this is good for users.

00:54:48.947 --> 00:54:49.307
And it's like, well,

00:54:49.327 --> 00:54:50.068
then why'd you hide it?

00:54:50.108 --> 00:54:51.688
Why didn't you tell us how awesome this

00:54:51.728 --> 00:54:52.289
new feature is?

00:54:52.849 --> 00:54:54.050
But in addition to all this stuff,

00:54:54.070 --> 00:54:55.530
you know, Chrome is like over the years,

00:54:55.710 --> 00:54:57.211
it's really become a resource hog.

00:54:57.251 --> 00:54:59.012
Like everyone I know says that it takes

00:54:59.052 --> 00:54:59.972
up tons of space.

00:55:00.092 --> 00:55:01.114
It eats up your Ram.

00:55:01.534 --> 00:55:02.514
I don't know how true that stuff is.

00:55:02.554 --> 00:55:03.775
Cause I haven't used Chrome in several

00:55:03.795 --> 00:55:04.795
years, but that's what I hear.

00:55:05.315 --> 00:55:09.237
So I think I'll have to bounce over

00:55:09.297 --> 00:55:10.338
to the privacy guides website.

00:55:10.418 --> 00:55:12.119
I know that brave is a big one.

00:55:12.139 --> 00:55:15.641
We recommend Firefox is, is pretty good,

00:55:15.681 --> 00:55:18.782
but it does require some some tweaking to

00:55:18.862 --> 00:55:20.103
really get the most out of it for

00:55:20.143 --> 00:55:20.382
sure.

00:55:22.518 --> 00:55:23.762
And browsers are one of those things that

00:55:23.782 --> 00:55:25.989
I know everybody kind of has their

00:55:26.030 --> 00:55:26.952
favorite browser, right?

00:55:26.992 --> 00:55:27.956
Like some people prefer...

00:55:29.215 --> 00:55:29.835
Yeah, I mean, here,

00:55:29.855 --> 00:55:31.534
I'll put you on screen while I'm looking

00:55:31.554 --> 00:55:32.536
this up.

00:55:32.556 --> 00:55:34.896
But some people prefer their LibreWall for

00:55:34.956 --> 00:55:36.315
Mulvad, which Mulvad's a really good one.

00:55:36.416 --> 00:55:38.297
Actually, here, I've got the page here.

00:55:38.356 --> 00:55:39.697
I'll bounce this up real quick.

00:55:40.317 --> 00:55:41.476
Mulvad's a really good one that we do

00:55:41.536 --> 00:55:42.056
recommend.

00:55:43.938 --> 00:55:45.378
I think for a lot of the power

00:55:45.458 --> 00:55:46.898
users in the crowd, Mulvad will be fine.

00:55:46.918 --> 00:55:48.177
But there are, like,

00:55:48.277 --> 00:55:49.458
I remember when Mulvad came out,

00:55:49.577 --> 00:55:50.699
I asked some of my friends and family,

00:55:50.739 --> 00:55:50.978
like, hey,

00:55:50.998 --> 00:55:52.139
can you test this out for me for

00:55:52.159 --> 00:55:52.699
like a week?

00:55:52.759 --> 00:55:53.659
Because I want to know if this is

00:55:53.679 --> 00:55:55.920
a good browser I can recommend to the

00:55:56.000 --> 00:55:57.159
average non-technical person.

00:55:58.860 --> 00:56:00.340
one person couldn't download it because

00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:01.842
their antivirus kept flagging it,

00:56:02.101 --> 00:56:03.702
which I still need to talk to them

00:56:03.742 --> 00:56:05.003
about why you shouldn't pay for third

00:56:05.043 --> 00:56:05.664
party antivirus.

00:56:06.164 --> 00:56:07.865
And then the other person was able to

00:56:07.885 --> 00:56:09.106
download it just fine, but they were like,

00:56:09.126 --> 00:56:09.686
Hey, um,

00:56:09.726 --> 00:56:10.547
and they weren't mad at me for the

00:56:10.567 --> 00:56:10.806
record,

00:56:10.827 --> 00:56:11.887
but they just told me they're like, Hey,

00:56:11.907 --> 00:56:12.288
FYI,

00:56:12.628 --> 00:56:14.009
literally none of my streaming services

00:56:14.048 --> 00:56:15.590
work like Netflix, Hulu, Disney,

00:56:15.949 --> 00:56:18.092
like none of them work with Moldad.

00:56:18.132 --> 00:56:19.672
So it's a great option.

00:56:19.773 --> 00:56:20.813
It's just, you know,

00:56:20.833 --> 00:56:23.094
the average person may struggle, um,

00:56:23.135 --> 00:56:25.076
to do some like day-to-day things.

00:56:25.175 --> 00:56:25.275
Um,

00:56:25.795 --> 00:56:28.157
Firefox, like I said, is pretty great.

00:56:28.277 --> 00:56:29.338
There's just some settings you need to

00:56:29.358 --> 00:56:29.757
change.

00:56:29.918 --> 00:56:30.898
Add uBlock origin.

00:56:31.438 --> 00:56:31.878
Brave.

00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:34.139
I think for people coming from Chrome,

00:56:34.179 --> 00:56:35.460
Brave is probably going to be the best

00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:37.681
replacement since it's based on Chrome.

00:56:40.041 --> 00:56:40.882
So yeah.

00:56:41.663 --> 00:56:43.244
And then people are obviously leaving

00:56:43.324 --> 00:56:45.864
things here in the comments like Helium

00:56:45.885 --> 00:56:47.925
and Zen.

00:56:47.985 --> 00:56:49.045
Those are fine, I guess,

00:56:49.507 --> 00:56:50.266
if you want to use those.

00:56:50.306 --> 00:56:51.568
They're not our official recommendations,

00:56:51.588 --> 00:56:53.228
but they're probably way better than

00:56:53.248 --> 00:56:54.208
Chrome, I think.

00:56:56.114 --> 00:56:57.637
So yeah, I think I've been talking plenty.

00:56:58.157 --> 00:56:58.998
I'll turn it over to you for a

00:56:59.039 --> 00:56:59.239
minute.

00:56:59.260 --> 00:57:01.623
Any thoughts on this?

00:57:02.563 --> 00:57:03.925
It was funny that you mentioned how many

00:57:04.045 --> 00:57:05.807
songs there are because I think four

00:57:05.827 --> 00:57:07.811
gigabytes was the amount of storage that

00:57:07.831 --> 00:57:10.954
the original iPod had in in two thousand

00:57:11.135 --> 00:57:11.235
one.

00:57:11.655 --> 00:57:13.056
And that classic tagline,

00:57:13.097 --> 00:57:14.597
a thousand songs in your pocket.

00:57:15.617 --> 00:57:17.739
Now we're just kind of wasting that

00:57:17.759 --> 00:57:20.599
storage space on random AI models that it

00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:23.400
sounds like are going to be barely used

00:57:23.440 --> 00:57:24.842
in Google Chrome since most of this is

00:57:24.862 --> 00:57:26.101
still going through their servers.

00:57:26.483 --> 00:57:28.143
So it just kind of goes to show

00:57:28.202 --> 00:57:30.724
how much tech has changed in the last

00:57:30.744 --> 00:57:31.864
twenty five years and how

00:57:33.456 --> 00:57:34.856
not not really for the better i think

00:57:35.016 --> 00:57:37.077
all of this software just becoming very

00:57:37.117 --> 00:57:39.777
bloated for very little gain um and i

00:57:39.818 --> 00:57:41.679
think at the end of this article um

00:57:41.719 --> 00:57:44.579
someone pointed out that pushing four

00:57:44.619 --> 00:57:47.079
gigabytes of data to the millions or

00:57:47.159 --> 00:57:48.581
billions of devices that have google

00:57:48.601 --> 00:57:51.201
chrome installed on them um results in

00:57:51.260 --> 00:57:52.942
like just a huge amount of data being

00:57:52.961 --> 00:57:54.262
transferred over the internet like all of

00:57:54.282 --> 00:57:57.563
these software updates do um which is you

00:57:57.583 --> 00:58:00.324
know i mean that's kind of normal we

00:58:00.344 --> 00:58:01.965
get software updates all the time so it's

00:58:01.985 --> 00:58:03.045
not that crazy but

00:58:04.106 --> 00:58:06.688
That's still a huge amount of data there's

00:58:06.708 --> 00:58:08.369
there's always a cost to that sort of

00:58:08.409 --> 00:58:09.510
thing, not just financially,

00:58:09.550 --> 00:58:13.992
but in terms of CO two environmentally all

00:58:14.012 --> 00:58:17.054
of this Ai is just speeding up all

00:58:17.074 --> 00:58:19.594
of those issues in many different ways.

00:58:21.396 --> 00:58:23.036
So yeah technology is just.

00:58:24.275 --> 00:58:24.614
Crazy.

00:58:24.795 --> 00:58:24.976
Yeah,

00:58:25.016 --> 00:58:27.277
four gigabytes times the amount of Chrome

00:58:27.336 --> 00:58:27.597
users.

00:58:27.978 --> 00:58:28.498
Absolutely.

00:58:29.900 --> 00:58:32.340
It's exactly like Kerry just said in the

00:58:32.382 --> 00:58:33.041
chat as well.

00:58:33.081 --> 00:58:34.043
When these stories pop up,

00:58:34.822 --> 00:58:36.505
you just got to stop using Google Chrome.

00:58:37.485 --> 00:58:38.947
And I think all of these browser solutions

00:58:38.967 --> 00:58:39.527
are going to be better.

00:58:39.626 --> 00:58:40.367
We obviously,

00:58:41.268 --> 00:58:43.449
the general consensus among Privacy

00:58:43.469 --> 00:58:45.152
Guide's team members and also people

00:58:45.851 --> 00:58:47.972
in the community on the forum is that

00:58:48.253 --> 00:58:50.594
Brave and Firefox tend to be the best

00:58:50.634 --> 00:58:52.094
choices for a lot of people.

00:58:52.253 --> 00:58:54.255
But as other people have mentioned,

00:58:54.775 --> 00:58:55.635
and like Nate just said,

00:58:55.655 --> 00:58:57.396
there are other options that are coming up

00:58:57.436 --> 00:58:58.775
and becoming very popular.

00:58:59.335 --> 00:59:01.777
I've been using Zen Browser for some time

00:59:01.817 --> 00:59:03.056
personally, and I like it a lot.

00:59:03.257 --> 00:59:05.297
I know a lot of people are starting

00:59:05.318 --> 00:59:07.518
to use Helium Browser lately,

00:59:09.179 --> 00:59:11.420
which definitely has some good things

00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:12.139
going for it.

00:59:13.619 --> 00:59:15.081
I would also throw in Brave

00:59:15.760 --> 00:59:18.242
origin as a great Google Chrome

00:59:18.322 --> 00:59:20.681
alternative in addition to Brave,

00:59:20.702 --> 00:59:22.023
just because it has a bit less of

00:59:22.063 --> 00:59:24.702
the bloatware like the VPN stuff that

00:59:24.722 --> 00:59:26.704
Brave does or the cryptocurrency related

00:59:26.744 --> 00:59:27.123
stuff.

00:59:28.963 --> 00:59:31.184
That obviously costs money for some

00:59:31.224 --> 00:59:31.525
people,

00:59:31.585 --> 00:59:32.965
but what I would say to that is

00:59:32.985 --> 00:59:34.306
if you don't want to pay the sixty

00:59:34.326 --> 00:59:34.706
dollars,

00:59:35.597 --> 00:59:37.000
You should be on Linux anyways,

00:59:37.039 --> 00:59:38.322
where Brave Origin is free.

00:59:38.402 --> 00:59:40.065
So you always have that option.

00:59:40.585 --> 00:59:42.148
Linux is a great operating system to

00:59:42.188 --> 00:59:45.994
switch to, and you can start using that.

00:59:46.373 --> 00:59:49.458
A big benefit of Brave Origin versus these

00:59:49.559 --> 00:59:50.900
other platforms is mainly

00:59:51.976 --> 00:59:54.378
Just having the backing of a much larger

00:59:54.438 --> 00:59:55.617
company behind it,

00:59:55.777 --> 00:59:58.139
and Brave has been very timely with

00:59:59.259 --> 01:00:00.978
security updates and other Chrome updates

01:00:00.998 --> 01:00:02.280
for a very long time,

01:00:02.500 --> 01:00:04.739
whereas a lot of these other alternatives

01:00:05.181 --> 01:00:07.940
are somewhat hit or miss with those

01:00:08.001 --> 01:00:08.440
updates.

01:00:08.601 --> 01:00:10.541
And just like with Graphene OS,

01:00:10.581 --> 01:00:11.961
like we were talking about before,

01:00:12.443 --> 01:00:13.762
staying up to date with those updates is

01:00:13.782 --> 01:00:16.563
super important from a security

01:00:16.623 --> 01:00:17.244
perspective.

01:00:19.231 --> 01:00:21.273
I would typically probably recommend Brave

01:00:21.393 --> 01:00:23.394
Origin to most people who are looking for

01:00:23.474 --> 01:00:25.815
the cleanest Chromium experience these

01:00:25.835 --> 01:00:26.096
days.

01:00:26.235 --> 01:00:27.217
But yeah,

01:00:27.237 --> 01:00:28.918
there are certainly a lot of options with

01:00:28.938 --> 01:00:31.099
their own pros and cons.

01:00:31.820 --> 01:00:32.701
And if you want to know any of

01:00:32.740 --> 01:00:33.661
the specifics of that,

01:00:33.740 --> 01:00:36.362
I would always recommend checking out our

01:00:36.402 --> 01:00:38.204
forum or asking your questions there.

01:00:38.963 --> 01:00:40.085
I mean, with a lot of these browsers,

01:00:40.125 --> 01:00:41.505
I know there's already discussion threads

01:00:41.545 --> 01:00:43.527
about them where you can find out the

01:00:43.567 --> 01:00:45.248
pros and cons and why they're not

01:00:45.307 --> 01:00:47.190
necessarily recommended on the site yet.

01:00:47.909 --> 01:00:51.532
but can still be good in certain use

01:00:51.572 --> 01:00:54.614
cases.

01:00:54.653 --> 01:01:01.458
So the first generation iPod had a minimum

01:01:01.739 --> 01:01:03.280
of five gigabytes.

01:01:05.141 --> 01:01:06.581
And I don't know if this is going

01:01:06.601 --> 01:01:07.322
to make you feel old,

01:01:07.342 --> 01:01:08.143
but it made me feel old.

01:01:08.163 --> 01:01:09.523
The connection was FireWire.

01:01:12.952 --> 01:01:14.793
Yeah, that was an interesting time.

01:01:15.112 --> 01:01:15.672
I will say,

01:01:16.612 --> 01:01:17.954
for everything I just said about

01:01:18.014 --> 01:01:20.914
technology going in a bad direction in

01:01:20.954 --> 01:01:21.293
some ways,

01:01:21.353 --> 01:01:24.795
I will say switching everything to USB-C

01:01:24.875 --> 01:01:26.735
is one of the biggest improvements that

01:01:26.755 --> 01:01:28.016
has ever been made, honestly.

01:01:28.056 --> 01:01:31.257
Having one universal connector is just so

01:01:31.297 --> 01:01:32.556
nice, so much nicer,

01:01:32.717 --> 01:01:37.418
if anyone remembers how it was before.

01:01:37.438 --> 01:01:38.059
Totally agree.

01:01:40.853 --> 01:01:43.755
Yeah, I do want to point out,

01:01:44.155 --> 01:01:45.434
I just want to drive home something you

01:01:45.474 --> 01:01:45.755
said,

01:01:45.795 --> 01:01:51.215
which is that I think there's something to

01:01:51.235 --> 01:01:51.835
be said.

01:01:51.996 --> 01:01:53.797
Privacy Guides kind of operates under the

01:01:53.896 --> 01:01:55.836
idea, or under the philosophy,

01:01:55.876 --> 01:01:56.356
I should say,

01:01:56.476 --> 01:01:58.518
of recommending the best product.

01:01:59.057 --> 01:01:59.998
I think,

01:02:00.197 --> 01:02:01.657
kind of going back to our headline story,

01:02:02.398 --> 01:02:03.358
I would argue that...

01:02:04.581 --> 01:02:06.402
and maybe this is open for debate because

01:02:06.422 --> 01:02:08.625
of what you mentioned about like micro G

01:02:08.684 --> 01:02:10.206
running at an elevated privilege level.

01:02:10.266 --> 01:02:12.807
But I would argue that something like, um,

01:02:12.827 --> 01:02:14.028
Calix is going to be a little bit

01:02:14.048 --> 01:02:15.090
better for your privacy,

01:02:15.451 --> 01:02:16.851
assuming it's fully updated and

01:02:16.871 --> 01:02:17.251
everything,

01:02:18.012 --> 01:02:19.414
but it would be a little bit better

01:02:19.434 --> 01:02:21.574
for your privacy than like stock Chrome or

01:02:21.635 --> 01:02:22.335
stock Android.

01:02:22.376 --> 01:02:22.576
Right.

01:02:22.715 --> 01:02:22.996
Yeah.

01:02:23.036 --> 01:02:24.336
But obviously we don't recommend that

01:02:24.376 --> 01:02:26.099
because graphene is even better and it's

01:02:26.159 --> 01:02:27.380
really not that much harder.

01:02:27.760 --> 01:02:29.021
So we recommend graphene instead.

01:02:29.641 --> 01:02:29.782
Um,

01:02:29.822 --> 01:02:30.762
so where I'm going with that is I

01:02:30.782 --> 01:02:32.043
think, uh,

01:02:32.063 --> 01:02:33.784
a lot of the time I think, uh,

01:02:34.385 --> 01:02:35.547
this is something I've harped on before,

01:02:35.588 --> 01:02:36.329
is a lot of the time I think

01:02:36.369 --> 01:02:37.990
we in the privacy community kind of

01:02:38.692 --> 01:02:40.275
undersell how much we've learned and how

01:02:40.315 --> 01:02:41.115
tech savvy we are.

01:02:42.518 --> 01:02:44.161
I consider myself not very tech savvy

01:02:44.621 --> 01:02:46.143
compared to a lot of other people that

01:02:46.164 --> 01:02:47.786
are like developers and programmers and

01:02:47.847 --> 01:02:48.288
hackers.

01:02:49.268 --> 01:02:50.050
but even I like,

01:02:50.429 --> 01:02:51.931
I know how to self host next cloud.

01:02:51.972 --> 01:02:53.273
I know how to self host jellyfin.

01:02:53.333 --> 01:02:54.614
Like I know how to mess with the

01:02:54.655 --> 01:02:55.255
settings on my router.

01:02:55.315 --> 01:02:56.277
I flashed my router,

01:02:56.336 --> 01:02:58.159
like all these kinds of things that the

01:02:58.199 --> 01:02:59.501
average person I think doesn't really know

01:02:59.521 --> 01:03:00.121
how to do it.

01:03:00.702 --> 01:03:01.523
And so I think, um,

01:03:01.704 --> 01:03:03.264
sometimes it can be really empowering to

01:03:03.304 --> 01:03:04.226
take those baby steps.

01:03:04.246 --> 01:03:05.648
And I think sometimes those baby steps are

01:03:05.668 --> 01:03:07.070
going to be, um,

01:03:09.867 --> 01:03:10.809
I think some of them are going to

01:03:10.829 --> 01:03:11.088
be like,

01:03:11.168 --> 01:03:12.570
even if you never go further than this,

01:03:12.610 --> 01:03:13.150
it's still better.

01:03:13.251 --> 01:03:14.231
And so I'm kind of talking to the

01:03:14.271 --> 01:03:15.213
audience here where, you know,

01:03:15.233 --> 01:03:16.554
some people get mad that you say things

01:03:16.594 --> 01:03:18.076
like you in general,

01:03:18.456 --> 01:03:19.976
that we say things like, you know,

01:03:19.998 --> 01:03:20.657
like switch to brave.

01:03:20.677 --> 01:03:21.539
And some people are like, oh,

01:03:21.559 --> 01:03:22.719
but brave has all these problems,

01:03:22.739 --> 01:03:23.960
which is fair.

01:03:24.501 --> 01:03:27.284
But also like if somebody switches to

01:03:27.324 --> 01:03:28.664
brave and they're just like, oh,

01:03:29.385 --> 01:03:30.186
this isn't so bad.

01:03:30.206 --> 01:03:31.168
This is just like Chrome.

01:03:31.648 --> 01:03:32.929
Well, I hear that Firefox is better.

01:03:32.949 --> 01:03:33.630
What if I check that out?

01:03:33.710 --> 01:03:34.771
What about the small bad browser?

01:03:34.791 --> 01:03:36.333
What about that might be the gate that

01:03:36.414 --> 01:03:37.974
opens them up to check out the gateway,

01:03:38.275 --> 01:03:40.237
the gateway drug that opens them up to

01:03:40.277 --> 01:03:41.398
check out other browsers.

01:03:41.418 --> 01:03:42.840
And maybe eventually they will end up at

01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:44.922
something way better and way more secure.

01:03:45.543 --> 01:03:47.505
But even if they never go further than

01:03:47.525 --> 01:03:47.706
that,

01:03:47.746 --> 01:03:49.007
like it's still better than using Chrome

01:03:49.027 --> 01:03:49.547
in my opinion.

01:03:49.568 --> 01:03:49.867
So yeah,

01:03:50.929 --> 01:03:52.449
um yeah i just i guess i just

01:03:52.469 --> 01:03:53.710
kind of want to defend that uh not

01:03:53.750 --> 01:03:55.929
not that you were not doing that but

01:03:55.949 --> 01:03:57.291
just to the audience i want to point

01:03:57.331 --> 01:03:58.851
out that like i think these these can

01:03:58.911 --> 01:04:00.851
still be useful baby steps along the

01:04:00.871 --> 01:04:02.632
journey to get people because something

01:04:02.672 --> 01:04:04.072
like brave is going to be again i

01:04:04.092 --> 01:04:05.092
think i said this already it's going to

01:04:05.112 --> 01:04:06.632
be like the most familiar for people who

01:04:06.652 --> 01:04:08.614
are coming from chrome and then once they

01:04:08.653 --> 01:04:10.134
realize like oh that was really easy that

01:04:10.153 --> 01:04:12.135
was simple maybe i'll check out firefox

01:04:12.175 --> 01:04:13.534
maybe i'll check out these other ones so

01:04:13.675 --> 01:04:15.356
you know it could potentially become a

01:04:15.396 --> 01:04:16.675
journey for some people so

01:04:17.304 --> 01:04:17.844
Absolutely.

01:04:18.304 --> 01:04:20.826
I think our general philosophy,

01:04:20.945 --> 01:04:21.927
at least mine,

01:04:21.947 --> 01:04:23.947
but I think the general philosophy among

01:04:23.987 --> 01:04:26.208
the team is that our recommendations on

01:04:26.248 --> 01:04:30.612
the site are geared towards being the best

01:04:30.791 --> 01:04:32.733
option with the least amount of downsides

01:04:32.753 --> 01:04:34.614
for literally pretty much any

01:04:35.293 --> 01:04:38.295
use case or threat model as much as

01:04:38.315 --> 01:04:38.657
we can.

01:04:38.717 --> 01:04:39.056
Obviously,

01:04:39.077 --> 01:04:40.237
there's still going to be upsides and

01:04:40.277 --> 01:04:41.458
downsides to each of these.

01:04:42.338 --> 01:04:47.463
But like compared to Calix or even Lineage

01:04:47.583 --> 01:04:47.983
OS,

01:04:48.664 --> 01:04:51.106
it's our opinion that Graphene OS offers

01:04:51.286 --> 01:04:53.086
the most benefits with the least amount of

01:04:53.128 --> 01:04:54.489
downside to the most people.

01:04:54.949 --> 01:04:57.731
If we're talking about Calix OS or Lineage

01:04:57.891 --> 01:04:58.231
OS,

01:05:00.088 --> 01:05:02.952
Those both have some merits.

01:05:03.251 --> 01:05:03.711
Certainly,

01:05:04.413 --> 01:05:06.434
like Jordan just mentioned in the chat

01:05:06.474 --> 01:05:06.695
here,

01:05:07.516 --> 01:05:09.697
there's wider device support with both

01:05:09.717 --> 01:05:11.679
CalixOS, but especially LineageOS,

01:05:11.719 --> 01:05:13.141
and that helps people get into this

01:05:13.221 --> 01:05:14.501
de-Googled ecosystem.

01:05:16.989 --> 01:05:17.990
which is always, I think,

01:05:18.030 --> 01:05:19.572
great from a privacy perspective.

01:05:19.711 --> 01:05:21.152
But at the same time,

01:05:21.672 --> 01:05:24.054
the downsides of using CalixOS or

01:05:24.074 --> 01:05:26.295
LineageOS are potentially very high,

01:05:26.617 --> 01:05:28.038
especially from a security perspective.

01:05:28.057 --> 01:05:30.739
And people can really shoot themselves in

01:05:30.759 --> 01:05:31.559
the foot, I think,

01:05:31.599 --> 01:05:32.740
if they don't know what they're doing.

01:05:32.780 --> 01:05:34.762
Whereas with something like Brave,

01:05:35.561 --> 01:05:36.943
not my favorite browser,

01:05:37.023 --> 01:05:40.266
but the downsides are pretty minimal and

01:05:40.306 --> 01:05:42.146
it's very easy to recommend to most

01:05:42.206 --> 01:05:42.606
people.

01:05:42.867 --> 01:05:43.307
And I think...

01:05:45.456 --> 01:05:47.076
I think it probably goes without saying,

01:05:47.295 --> 01:05:48.896
we don't explicitly have it on our site

01:05:48.916 --> 01:05:48.976
yet,

01:05:48.996 --> 01:05:50.197
but we should probably just update it

01:05:50.237 --> 01:05:51.818
because Brave Origin is the same.

01:05:51.838 --> 01:05:54.038
But I think Brave Origin is even better

01:05:54.077 --> 01:05:56.179
because it's just the exact same thing as

01:05:56.239 --> 01:05:57.858
Brave, but less,

01:05:59.599 --> 01:06:01.280
which is typically good from a security

01:06:01.320 --> 01:06:01.760
perspective.

01:06:01.800 --> 01:06:03.579
You want to keep things as minimal as

01:06:03.639 --> 01:06:05.280
possible and also just from a user

01:06:05.320 --> 01:06:06.260
experience perspective.

01:06:07.360 --> 01:06:09.041
But if we talk about other browsers like

01:06:09.521 --> 01:06:13.764
Helium or like Zen Browser or even

01:06:13.963 --> 01:06:14.603
LibreWolf,

01:06:14.643 --> 01:06:16.864
like there are a lot of upsides for

01:06:16.885 --> 01:06:17.666
a lot of people,

01:06:18.065 --> 01:06:21.146
but there are also a lot of downsides,

01:06:21.327 --> 01:06:23.387
which make it very hard to recommend to

01:06:23.648 --> 01:06:26.829
a general audience who might not look into

01:06:27.110 --> 01:06:29.230
all of this stuff further than what we

01:06:29.289 --> 01:06:30.351
put on the site.

01:06:30.630 --> 01:06:32.452
I think that's a common thing.

01:06:33.211 --> 01:06:35.972
misconception that people have with the

01:06:35.992 --> 01:06:39.315
privacyguides.org resources is that people

01:06:39.355 --> 01:06:41.074
think that if it's not listed there,

01:06:41.094 --> 01:06:43.896
that means there's some problem with it.

01:06:44.476 --> 01:06:47.217
But typically if something is omitted,

01:06:48.259 --> 01:06:51.739
it's not like an anti-recommendation in a

01:06:51.780 --> 01:06:52.460
lot of cases.

01:06:53.101 --> 01:06:53.300
And

01:06:54.641 --> 01:06:56.621
This is a reason why I think our

01:06:56.722 --> 01:07:01.085
forum has become even more popular than

01:07:01.105 --> 01:07:02.224
our main website at this point.

01:07:02.244 --> 01:07:03.706
It's because we can have these more

01:07:03.726 --> 01:07:05.507
in-depth discussions if people are

01:07:05.927 --> 01:07:06.748
interested in that.

01:07:06.788 --> 01:07:09.188
So that's kind of the case with everything

01:07:09.228 --> 01:07:10.469
we don't recommend on the site.

01:07:10.889 --> 01:07:12.771
There are in-depth forum discussions where

01:07:12.791 --> 01:07:14.351
you can learn about these tools,

01:07:14.391 --> 01:07:16.952
but also learn about the potential

01:07:17.012 --> 01:07:17.713
downsides,

01:07:17.753 --> 01:07:19.635
which I think people should at least know

01:07:20.295 --> 01:07:21.135
before they use them.

01:07:23.481 --> 01:07:23.822
So yeah,

01:07:24.103 --> 01:07:25.346
I think that's kind of where we're at

01:07:25.365 --> 01:07:29.335
with the recommendations in general.

01:07:29.416 --> 01:07:30.056
Yeah, for sure.

01:07:31.617 --> 01:07:32.697
That is one nice thing about the forum.

01:07:32.717 --> 01:07:34.458
Cause there's so much information and so

01:07:34.498 --> 01:07:36.320
much to consider that, you know,

01:07:36.360 --> 01:07:37.760
for some people may not be relevant and

01:07:37.780 --> 01:07:38.820
for others may be relevant.

01:07:38.840 --> 01:07:40.581
Like I know, um, and we'll,

01:07:40.681 --> 01:07:41.780
we'll get to the forum in a minute,

01:07:41.820 --> 01:07:42.581
but I know on the forum,

01:07:42.601 --> 01:07:43.961
there's been an ongoing discussion about

01:07:44.121 --> 01:07:46.282
only office and how only office like

01:07:46.302 --> 01:07:47.844
allegedly has some ties to Russia.

01:07:48.063 --> 01:07:49.623
And like the licensing is kind of weird.

01:07:50.224 --> 01:07:51.184
And, you know, some people are like,

01:07:51.224 --> 01:07:52.625
maybe we shouldn't list only office.

01:07:52.985 --> 01:07:54.646
And me personally, I'm over here going,

01:07:54.826 --> 01:07:55.326
I don't care.

01:07:55.505 --> 01:07:56.626
Like none of that is part of my

01:07:56.666 --> 01:07:57.226
threat model.

01:07:57.806 --> 01:07:57.887
Um,

01:07:58.166 --> 01:07:59.027
Not interested,

01:07:59.407 --> 01:08:01.210
but I completely respect that there are

01:08:01.250 --> 01:08:01.989
people who are like, no,

01:08:02.030 --> 01:08:02.831
that's very alarming,

01:08:02.851 --> 01:08:04.231
and I don't want to be using OnlyOffice

01:08:04.271 --> 01:08:07.414
at my politically motivated nonprofit,

01:08:07.434 --> 01:08:08.275
right?

01:08:08.315 --> 01:08:10.536
So I think it's really cool that you

01:08:10.556 --> 01:08:11.797
can go to the forum and get that

01:08:11.818 --> 01:08:15.159
kind of in-depth because if you make a

01:08:15.199 --> 01:08:16.041
website too wordy,

01:08:16.100 --> 01:08:16.841
people aren't going to read it.

01:08:16.962 --> 01:08:17.622
Ask me how I know.

01:08:17.641 --> 01:08:18.462
Right.

01:08:19.404 --> 01:08:21.204
So it's really cool that people have that

01:08:21.265 --> 01:08:23.367
supplementary resource they can go to.

01:08:23.407 --> 01:08:24.507
Not to shill the forum too much,

01:08:24.547 --> 01:08:26.889
but I like that about it.

01:08:27.390 --> 01:08:28.890
There's no way to shill the forum too

01:08:28.951 --> 01:08:29.230
much.

01:08:29.771 --> 01:08:31.512
I can shill it all day, any day.

01:08:31.832 --> 01:08:32.793
And it'll never be enough.

01:08:32.913 --> 01:08:33.635
You should check out the forum.

01:08:33.654 --> 01:08:34.015
Fair enough.

01:08:35.837 --> 01:08:37.018
uh nice to have jonah just said in

01:08:37.037 --> 01:08:39.059
the chat is there no privacy respecting

01:08:39.118 --> 01:08:42.680
streaming option yeah unfortunately uh

01:08:42.760 --> 01:08:46.619
streamyard is not super great um either we

01:08:46.659 --> 01:08:49.980
mainly offer it as a solution because i

01:08:50.041 --> 01:08:51.461
mean it's a service that we're using so

01:08:51.480 --> 01:08:53.681
you're kind of getting it directly but and

01:08:53.702 --> 01:08:55.442
it's also better than literally all the

01:08:55.481 --> 01:08:58.523
other options but streaming is a pretty

01:09:00.110 --> 01:09:03.354
difficult system to to get up and running

01:09:03.394 --> 01:09:05.796
because you have to imagine, I mean,

01:09:05.855 --> 01:09:07.016
even if we're self hosting it,

01:09:07.077 --> 01:09:12.162
every single viewer is going to use like

01:09:12.341 --> 01:09:13.483
a certain amount of bandwidth.

01:09:13.502 --> 01:09:15.685
So you just have to multiply that by

01:09:15.805 --> 01:09:17.146
every single user who's watching it

01:09:17.167 --> 01:09:17.966
simultaneously.

01:09:19.349 --> 01:09:22.692
The problem that we have is

01:09:24.386 --> 01:09:26.646
more to do with, I mean,

01:09:26.686 --> 01:09:27.926
we just can't have a great experience.

01:09:27.966 --> 01:09:29.867
We've got a lot of chats this week

01:09:29.886 --> 01:09:31.787
and we wouldn't be able to integrate chats

01:09:32.347 --> 01:09:34.689
with StreamYard if we were hosting a

01:09:34.729 --> 01:09:35.908
stream ourselves.

01:09:36.548 --> 01:09:39.170
And yeah, like you just pointed out,

01:09:40.569 --> 01:09:42.190
unlike YouTube,

01:09:42.871 --> 01:09:44.990
there's really no filtering going on with

01:09:45.011 --> 01:09:45.390
StreamYard.

01:09:45.792 --> 01:09:47.412
So that's the main reason we offer this

01:09:47.452 --> 01:09:49.712
StreamYard option for most people.

01:09:50.233 --> 01:09:51.353
I would say like if people...

01:09:53.155 --> 01:09:53.416
I mean,

01:09:53.896 --> 01:09:54.978
I can see why you'd want to watch

01:09:55.037 --> 01:09:55.597
it live,

01:09:55.637 --> 01:09:56.698
but if you're not going to interact with

01:09:56.719 --> 01:09:57.639
the chat or anything,

01:09:59.000 --> 01:10:00.341
the most private option is probably just

01:10:00.381 --> 01:10:02.141
downloading the podcast to your app

01:10:02.162 --> 01:10:05.505
because then it's just a download and you

01:10:05.524 --> 01:10:07.845
can watch it anytime without being tracked

01:10:07.886 --> 01:10:08.367
after that.

01:10:08.466 --> 01:10:11.288
So usually that ends up being the most

01:10:11.349 --> 01:10:12.189
private solution,

01:10:13.350 --> 01:10:15.671
but all of this chat being integrated into

01:10:15.752 --> 01:10:17.353
one place is super nice and that's why

01:10:17.393 --> 01:10:20.034
we are streaming on these platforms and

01:10:20.095 --> 01:10:20.335
not

01:10:22.627 --> 01:10:24.188
Not anything better, unfortunately.

01:10:24.667 --> 01:10:26.970
It's just more challenging, I think,

01:10:27.010 --> 01:10:29.752
than you would imagine.

01:10:29.811 --> 01:10:30.391
Yeah, for sure.

01:10:30.532 --> 01:10:33.434
And I also want to mention that the

01:10:33.474 --> 01:10:34.675
nice thing about StreamYard is like we

01:10:34.694 --> 01:10:35.536
were talking about at the beginning,

01:10:35.576 --> 01:10:37.777
we can broadcast to multiple channels at

01:10:37.896 --> 01:10:38.157
once.

01:10:38.597 --> 01:10:40.979
So that's kind of, I think,

01:10:41.059 --> 01:10:42.140
one of the main reasons we use it.

01:10:42.220 --> 01:10:43.301
I'm sure there's probably other reasons

01:10:43.320 --> 01:10:44.801
behind the scenes that I'm not aware of.

01:10:44.841 --> 01:10:47.963
But that unfortunately also kind of limits

01:10:48.024 --> 01:10:48.364
us to...

01:10:49.521 --> 01:10:51.002
what they're able to support.

01:10:51.063 --> 01:10:51.543
Cause I mean,

01:10:52.363 --> 01:10:53.604
there might be some kind of like third

01:10:53.645 --> 01:10:55.166
party script that can mirror to pure tube,

01:10:55.185 --> 01:10:55.766
for example.

01:10:56.207 --> 01:10:57.467
But then like Jonah was saying,

01:10:57.507 --> 01:10:59.109
we can't see the comments there.

01:10:59.128 --> 01:11:00.810
And it's just, it's, you know,

01:11:00.869 --> 01:11:01.970
it's like you were saying a minute ago,

01:11:02.030 --> 01:11:03.351
or we were saying a minute ago about

01:11:03.412 --> 01:11:05.094
switching to services and recommending

01:11:05.134 --> 01:11:05.554
services.

01:11:05.573 --> 01:11:05.873
It's like,

01:11:06.194 --> 01:11:07.515
we kind of have to balance like what's

01:11:07.574 --> 01:11:09.197
technically possible with what's going to

01:11:09.216 --> 01:11:09.716
give us the most.

01:11:10.457 --> 01:11:12.298
I don't want to say return,

01:11:12.378 --> 01:11:12.719
but you know,

01:11:12.738 --> 01:11:15.001
like we only have so much time and

01:11:15.041 --> 01:11:16.622
technical energy that we can spend in

01:11:16.662 --> 01:11:17.762
places and we need to make sure we're

01:11:17.802 --> 01:11:18.483
maximizing it.

01:11:18.583 --> 01:11:18.743
So.

01:11:19.747 --> 01:11:20.447
Yeah, absolutely.

01:11:21.108 --> 01:11:21.967
It will be on PeerTube.

01:11:22.007 --> 01:11:25.250
It will be on whatchamacallit,

01:11:25.390 --> 01:11:27.251
on podcasts like you were saying.

01:11:27.411 --> 01:11:28.832
So we do our best to try and

01:11:28.891 --> 01:11:31.774
offer people private alternatives,

01:11:31.814 --> 01:11:33.154
but it can be rough.

01:11:34.354 --> 01:11:35.456
I think there was something else I saw

01:11:35.475 --> 01:11:36.457
that I wanted to mention.

01:11:36.577 --> 01:11:36.896
Oh, yeah.

01:11:37.396 --> 01:11:39.158
Somebody stopped by and just said,

01:11:39.177 --> 01:11:40.078
thanks for everything you're doing.

01:11:40.198 --> 01:11:41.179
So thank you.

01:11:41.779 --> 01:11:42.460
Just wanted to shout that out.

01:11:43.621 --> 01:11:44.680
Yeah, thanks for all your support.

01:11:44.740 --> 01:11:45.021
I mean,

01:11:46.221 --> 01:11:47.863
even like just from an algorithmic

01:11:47.962 --> 01:11:49.983
perspective, one of the main goals,

01:11:50.904 --> 01:11:53.185
both with this stream and with our YouTube

01:11:53.225 --> 01:11:54.845
channel in general is to reach new

01:11:54.925 --> 01:11:56.626
audiences who wouldn't be interested in

01:11:56.706 --> 01:11:59.806
the in the type of content that we

01:11:59.827 --> 01:12:01.847
would publish on privacycast.org,

01:12:01.868 --> 01:12:02.448
for example.

01:12:03.007 --> 01:12:06.229
So any sort of engagement on YouTube,

01:12:06.270 --> 01:12:06.869
especially

01:12:08.376 --> 01:12:09.417
is helpful for us,

01:12:09.497 --> 01:12:11.838
even though we're asking you to use

01:12:12.298 --> 01:12:13.560
Google, which is not great.

01:12:13.680 --> 01:12:16.122
But in terms of reaching people who have

01:12:16.243 --> 01:12:17.863
never seen any of this before,

01:12:18.224 --> 01:12:19.786
it's super helpful.

01:12:20.025 --> 01:12:22.887
And anything that we can do to improve

01:12:22.908 --> 01:12:25.350
that and maybe help other people get this

01:12:25.610 --> 01:12:27.192
information that they otherwise wouldn't

01:12:27.932 --> 01:12:28.372
is super good.

01:12:28.393 --> 01:12:29.934
Because it's exactly what Nate was saying

01:12:29.993 --> 01:12:30.314
earlier,

01:12:30.595 --> 01:12:32.515
not just about software being a good entry

01:12:32.555 --> 01:12:32.777
point,

01:12:32.896 --> 01:12:33.077
but

01:12:33.851 --> 01:12:35.292
I'm hoping that a lot of the videos

01:12:35.311 --> 01:12:37.073
that we're publishing is a good entry

01:12:37.092 --> 01:12:39.193
point where people will then feel inspired

01:12:39.233 --> 01:12:41.694
to check out the privacyguides.org site or

01:12:41.753 --> 01:12:43.434
check out our forum when they otherwise

01:12:43.914 --> 01:12:46.295
wouldn't have any awareness of it at all.

01:12:46.515 --> 01:12:48.775
So that's a big goal for everything that

01:12:48.796 --> 01:12:53.296
we're doing on YouTube and our videos in

01:12:53.337 --> 01:12:53.596
general.

01:12:56.225 --> 01:12:58.386
I think the last thing on that note,

01:12:58.967 --> 01:13:00.948
what Carrie said about our conversation a

01:13:00.969 --> 01:13:02.409
minute ago is I was pointing out that

01:13:02.430 --> 01:13:04.091
for some people, when they start software,

01:13:04.131 --> 01:13:05.471
it could be their entry point to move

01:13:05.551 --> 01:13:06.712
on to other things.

01:13:07.873 --> 01:13:09.654
If something's too complicated or onerous,

01:13:09.715 --> 01:13:11.036
especially as a first foray into privacy,

01:13:11.055 --> 01:13:11.916
it can derail people.

01:13:11.997 --> 01:13:12.396
So yeah,

01:13:12.537 --> 01:13:15.439
kind of similar to this whole streaming

01:13:15.458 --> 01:13:15.618
thing.

01:13:15.639 --> 01:13:16.979
If we tell people like, oh,

01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:19.081
you can only find us on PeerTube,

01:13:19.100 --> 01:13:19.481
and by the way,

01:13:19.502 --> 01:13:20.921
there's like a hundred million instances

01:13:20.943 --> 01:13:23.944
and just trying to be user-friendly to

01:13:24.005 --> 01:13:25.204
everybody in that sense.

01:13:27.028 --> 01:13:27.689
Lots to think about.

01:13:29.190 --> 01:13:29.511
Anywho.

01:13:30.694 --> 01:13:30.833
Yeah,

01:13:30.854 --> 01:13:32.877
let's move on to our next story here.

01:13:33.439 --> 01:13:37.024
This was reported by the Proton blog.

01:13:37.206 --> 01:13:38.889
Looks like in their business section, but

01:13:40.411 --> 01:13:42.813
They wrote about Microsoft Edge keeping

01:13:42.934 --> 01:13:45.154
all saved passwords on your device

01:13:45.475 --> 01:13:46.115
unencrypted.

01:13:46.756 --> 01:13:48.819
So if you save passwords in Microsoft

01:13:48.939 --> 01:13:49.158
Edge,

01:13:49.219 --> 01:13:51.220
this article says there's a security risk

01:13:51.541 --> 01:13:52.161
you should know about.

01:13:52.421 --> 01:13:53.662
According to a new disclosure,

01:13:53.722 --> 01:13:54.844
whenever you open Edge,

01:13:54.904 --> 01:13:56.784
the browser immediately loads all saved

01:13:56.824 --> 01:13:59.207
passwords into memory in readable form,

01:13:59.467 --> 01:14:01.189
not just the password for the website

01:14:01.208 --> 01:14:01.909
you're logging into.

01:14:02.369 --> 01:14:04.109
That means credentials for every account

01:14:04.451 --> 01:14:06.671
saved in Edge could be exposed if malware,

01:14:06.951 --> 01:14:08.091
a compromised admin account,

01:14:08.150 --> 01:14:10.292
or another attacker gains access to your

01:14:10.311 --> 01:14:13.092
device or user session.

01:14:14.953 --> 01:14:16.694
This is a really interesting story to me

01:14:16.734 --> 01:14:17.333
because,

01:14:18.554 --> 01:14:19.934
as I believe it's pointed out in this

01:14:20.274 --> 01:14:20.755
article,

01:14:21.335 --> 01:14:24.095
this isn't typical for Chromium-based

01:14:24.115 --> 01:14:25.076
browsers in general.

01:14:25.115 --> 01:14:26.355
If you look at Google Chrome,

01:14:26.395 --> 01:14:29.256
they will only release the password in the

01:14:29.296 --> 01:14:29.676
memory.

01:14:30.077 --> 01:14:31.779
when you're using autofill,

01:14:32.220 --> 01:14:35.123
and then they delete it after.

01:14:36.045 --> 01:14:39.970
And your passwords could be at risk if

01:14:39.989 --> 01:14:42.073
you just leave Microsoft Edge open,

01:14:42.113 --> 01:14:44.074
like it's showing on the screen there.

01:14:45.238 --> 01:14:47.520
Which is probably happening most of the

01:14:47.539 --> 01:14:49.680
time for people because you always use

01:14:49.701 --> 01:14:50.061
your browser.

01:14:50.101 --> 01:14:50.462
But I mean,

01:14:50.782 --> 01:14:51.922
even if you open it for a second,

01:14:52.603 --> 01:14:54.564
malware can potentially get all of that

01:14:55.043 --> 01:14:56.185
information at any time,

01:14:56.204 --> 01:14:58.365
which is not great.

01:14:59.386 --> 01:15:02.427
Microsoft kind of defends this with a

01:15:02.528 --> 01:15:06.350
similar excuse to what Signal has said in

01:15:06.369 --> 01:15:07.871
the past about their desktop client,

01:15:07.890 --> 01:15:08.692
which is basically...

01:15:09.733 --> 01:15:11.073
If this is something that's going to

01:15:11.113 --> 01:15:12.194
compromise your data,

01:15:12.234 --> 01:15:14.394
you probably already have malware on your

01:15:14.934 --> 01:15:17.774
device that can get access to all of

01:15:17.814 --> 01:15:18.335
this data.

01:15:19.296 --> 01:15:21.395
And that's certainly true.

01:15:21.615 --> 01:15:23.197
I mean, you probably have,

01:15:25.157 --> 01:15:25.796
in such a case,

01:15:25.817 --> 01:15:27.318
you might have bigger problems to worry

01:15:27.337 --> 01:15:30.238
about than just this alone.

01:15:30.278 --> 01:15:31.838
There are a lot of ways that malware

01:15:31.859 --> 01:15:34.439
can exfiltrate your data without your

01:15:34.460 --> 01:15:34.880
knowledge.

01:15:37.189 --> 01:15:37.329
Yeah,

01:15:37.369 --> 01:15:38.791
you just don't want to have malware on

01:15:38.831 --> 01:15:40.452
your computer, obviously.

01:15:41.052 --> 01:15:43.934
But at the same time, and again,

01:15:44.435 --> 01:15:46.836
when signal desktop had some issue with

01:15:47.036 --> 01:15:48.637
information being available to other

01:15:49.297 --> 01:15:50.418
programs on your device,

01:15:51.298 --> 01:15:53.360
we also said this, like,

01:15:53.381 --> 01:15:56.462
there are technologies that edge could be

01:15:56.643 --> 01:15:59.083
using that would improve the situation

01:15:59.163 --> 01:15:59.604
beyond

01:16:00.359 --> 01:16:00.958
beyond this.

01:16:01.179 --> 01:16:04.360
And for them to do this means that

01:16:04.400 --> 01:16:06.702
they've explicitly changed some aspect of

01:16:06.742 --> 01:16:08.403
Chrome because, again,

01:16:08.443 --> 01:16:11.543
stock Chromium doesn't have this behavior.

01:16:11.805 --> 01:16:16.287
So it's just an edge-specific problem if

01:16:16.327 --> 01:16:18.328
you're using edge in Windows, which is...

01:16:19.546 --> 01:16:19.945
Not great.

01:16:20.186 --> 01:16:21.988
I actually don't know if this article says

01:16:23.628 --> 01:16:26.270
whether this occurs if you're using Edge

01:16:26.390 --> 01:16:29.072
on another operating system like macOS

01:16:29.372 --> 01:16:29.652
or...

01:16:30.372 --> 01:16:31.873
I think there's a Linux version of Edge,

01:16:31.934 --> 01:16:32.333
isn't there?

01:16:32.413 --> 01:16:33.034
I don't remember.

01:16:33.074 --> 01:16:33.715
Somebody tell me.

01:16:33.755 --> 01:16:34.895
But there is.

01:16:35.615 --> 01:16:35.996
Yeah,

01:16:36.036 --> 01:16:37.056
but I don't know why you would be

01:16:37.237 --> 01:16:41.319
using Edge on any of those platforms.

01:16:41.479 --> 01:16:43.381
So it's probably not a huge issue,

01:16:43.440 --> 01:16:44.862
even if this is the case in other

01:16:44.921 --> 01:16:45.061
ones.

01:16:45.101 --> 01:16:47.103
But, you know, on Windows especially...

01:16:48.804 --> 01:16:52.005
Windows is still super popular and edge.

01:16:53.284 --> 01:16:55.685
Microsoft really tries to force it to be

01:16:55.725 --> 01:16:56.945
your default as much as possible.

01:16:57.006 --> 01:16:57.725
So I mean,

01:16:57.905 --> 01:16:59.445
I would imagine this would affect a lot

01:16:59.485 --> 01:16:59.926
of users.

01:17:00.145 --> 01:17:02.345
But at the same time,

01:17:03.487 --> 01:17:06.186
only only making this available to like

01:17:06.426 --> 01:17:09.948
local users or local software like

01:17:10.007 --> 01:17:10.467
malware.

01:17:11.167 --> 01:17:13.047
It's not the worst thing in the world.

01:17:13.068 --> 01:17:16.229
It just seems completely unnecessary.

01:17:16.269 --> 01:17:16.649
So I don't

01:17:18.057 --> 01:17:18.939
Yeah,

01:17:19.078 --> 01:17:20.239
that's what I would have to say about

01:17:20.260 --> 01:17:20.881
the edge stuff.

01:17:21.461 --> 01:17:23.162
Did you have any other takeaways from this

01:17:23.222 --> 01:17:23.722
article, Nate?

01:17:26.342 --> 01:17:31.546
Um, I think just the, uh, um, yeah,

01:17:31.586 --> 01:17:32.966
I mean, it's, it's, unfortunately it's,

01:17:33.006 --> 01:17:34.207
uh, it is unique to edge,

01:17:34.228 --> 01:17:35.689
which kind of weakens the argument of like

01:17:36.309 --> 01:17:36.930
move away from that stuff.

01:17:36.949 --> 01:17:37.750
Cause I don't know a lot of people

01:17:37.770 --> 01:17:40.391
that do use edge, but, um,

01:17:40.511 --> 01:17:42.273
I think my big thing is it reminded

01:17:42.313 --> 01:17:42.993
me of, you know,

01:17:43.493 --> 01:17:44.895
and of course Proton's going to take this

01:17:44.935 --> 01:17:46.796
opportunity to show their products and

01:17:46.895 --> 01:17:48.436
they say use a password manager, but I,

01:17:48.556 --> 01:17:49.478
I kind of agree with them on this

01:17:49.578 --> 01:17:49.677
one.

01:17:49.698 --> 01:17:50.759
Um,

01:17:50.819 --> 01:17:52.119
I think there's a lot of reasons to

01:17:52.279 --> 01:17:53.881
use a third party password manager.

01:17:54.140 --> 01:17:55.261
Um, one of them is, um,

01:17:56.440 --> 01:17:58.502
their browser agnostic, right?

01:17:58.523 --> 01:17:59.685
We were just talking a minute ago about

01:18:00.225 --> 01:18:01.886
maybe somebody starts off using Brave and

01:18:01.907 --> 01:18:03.287
then eventually uses other browsers.

01:18:03.587 --> 01:18:04.788
If they have a third-party password

01:18:04.809 --> 01:18:05.149
manager,

01:18:05.569 --> 01:18:06.831
that makes it a lot easier for them

01:18:06.871 --> 01:18:08.872
to switch browsers because that's one less

01:18:08.893 --> 01:18:09.993
thing they have to worry about switching.

01:18:12.020 --> 01:18:13.180
There are also, I believe,

01:18:13.220 --> 01:18:14.001
correct me if I'm wrong,

01:18:14.020 --> 01:18:15.301
but I know there is malware that is

01:18:15.341 --> 01:18:16.962
capable of stealing data that's stored in

01:18:16.981 --> 01:18:18.743
the browser, like passwords, history,

01:18:19.002 --> 01:18:20.003
credit card numbers.

01:18:20.623 --> 01:18:23.904
And I think that it does not work

01:18:23.984 --> 01:18:25.525
anywhere near as well, if at all,

01:18:25.725 --> 01:18:27.346
on third-party password managers because

01:18:27.367 --> 01:18:29.207
of the way that they're segmented away.

01:18:31.028 --> 01:18:32.389
But I think a lot of other browsers

01:18:32.529 --> 01:18:34.750
are also segmenting it away in a similar

01:18:35.189 --> 01:18:35.550
manner.

01:18:35.951 --> 01:18:36.850
I mean, obviously,

01:18:37.671 --> 01:18:39.152
in most browsers except Google,

01:18:40.103 --> 01:18:41.184
It's optional in Firefox,

01:18:41.203 --> 01:18:42.024
I believe you can do this,

01:18:42.064 --> 01:18:43.625
but you typically don't need a master

01:18:43.664 --> 01:18:45.265
password to unlock your passwords or

01:18:45.305 --> 01:18:45.565
anything,

01:18:45.605 --> 01:18:48.268
so there are certainly ways to get into

01:18:48.287 --> 01:18:48.988
that locally.

01:18:52.390 --> 01:18:53.730
As this article points out,

01:18:54.131 --> 01:18:56.012
on the disk they're using standard

01:18:56.052 --> 01:18:56.653
encryption,

01:18:58.054 --> 01:19:02.216
but what's happening is all of the

01:19:02.256 --> 01:19:04.818
passwords are always being loaded into

01:19:05.219 --> 01:19:08.220
readable memory or RAM as soon as you

01:19:08.260 --> 01:19:08.961
launch the browser,

01:19:09.001 --> 01:19:09.121
so

01:19:09.780 --> 01:19:11.280
Since the browser is open most of the

01:19:11.341 --> 01:19:11.640
time,

01:19:12.060 --> 01:19:13.742
the fact that it's encrypted on the disk

01:19:14.162 --> 01:19:17.582
is probably not super relevant.

01:19:20.422 --> 01:19:24.404
But yeah, another... Oh, can't talk today.

01:19:24.644 --> 01:19:26.304
Another thing I wanted to point out that

01:19:27.083 --> 01:19:30.645
I just remembered was, I mean, Microsoft,

01:19:31.085 --> 01:19:32.125
this has happened before.

01:19:32.204 --> 01:19:34.966
There was a similar issue with Microsoft

01:19:35.006 --> 01:19:36.786
Recall, where they...

01:19:37.713 --> 01:19:40.255
just let anybody access all of that recall

01:19:40.274 --> 01:19:41.595
data, all of your screenshots.

01:19:43.076 --> 01:19:44.697
Any malware on your device could access

01:19:44.796 --> 01:19:46.817
all of that without any protections in

01:19:46.837 --> 01:19:47.136
place.

01:19:47.717 --> 01:19:52.099
And that just seems to be Microsoft's MO

01:19:52.118 --> 01:19:54.619
when it comes to developing software these

01:19:54.640 --> 01:19:54.840
days.

01:19:55.421 --> 01:19:57.440
They don't seem to take into account any

01:19:57.480 --> 01:19:59.742
sort of local attacks, unfortunately.

01:20:01.222 --> 01:20:02.422
Carrie just pointed out,

01:20:02.523 --> 01:20:04.264
even though Signal originally said that

01:20:04.304 --> 01:20:05.764
plain text messages while the app was

01:20:05.823 --> 01:20:06.704
running wasn't a problem,

01:20:08.417 --> 01:20:09.679
Didn't they eventually fix that?

01:20:10.279 --> 01:20:11.720
And yes, they did.

01:20:13.082 --> 01:20:14.483
And this is a case where I wouldn't

01:20:14.523 --> 01:20:18.167
be surprised if Microsoft fixes it as

01:20:18.226 --> 01:20:20.630
well, just because, again,

01:20:21.229 --> 01:20:22.652
this is non-standard behavior.

01:20:22.771 --> 01:20:24.634
I have no idea why...

01:20:25.987 --> 01:20:27.427
Microsoft would choose to do this.

01:20:27.467 --> 01:20:29.309
I don't know what feature that they

01:20:29.328 --> 01:20:30.168
thought this would enable.

01:20:30.208 --> 01:20:31.630
I don't know how they I have no

01:20:31.670 --> 01:20:33.270
idea how they use this or why it

01:20:33.291 --> 01:20:34.831
would be necessary for them to change it.

01:20:35.192 --> 01:20:37.172
But now that it's getting attention,

01:20:37.813 --> 01:20:38.393
they might do it.

01:20:38.712 --> 01:20:40.394
Of course, on the other hand,

01:20:40.434 --> 01:20:44.676
Microsoft isn't a company super well known

01:20:44.735 --> 01:20:45.877
for security.

01:20:45.997 --> 01:20:48.217
So unlike signal,

01:20:48.537 --> 01:20:50.918
so I also wouldn't be surprised if they

01:20:50.939 --> 01:20:51.479
don't fix it.

01:20:52.199 --> 01:20:53.961
I guess we'll just see what what happens

01:20:53.980 --> 01:20:54.121
there.

01:20:55.430 --> 01:20:57.431
Microsoft, not well known for security.

01:20:57.452 --> 01:21:01.077
That's blasphemy.

01:21:01.277 --> 01:21:01.476
Yeah.

01:21:01.497 --> 01:21:01.577
Yeah.

01:21:01.596 --> 01:21:03.479
Signal kind of dragged their feet with

01:21:03.538 --> 01:21:04.119
fixing that.

01:21:04.180 --> 01:21:05.822
They like kicked and screamed about it,

01:21:05.881 --> 01:21:06.962
but they did eventually.

01:21:08.024 --> 01:21:08.625
So, yeah.

01:21:10.554 --> 01:21:12.074
um yeah i mean i guess that's that's

01:21:12.095 --> 01:21:13.355
all i got that was my big takeaway

01:21:13.376 --> 01:21:15.015
is to use a password manager and that

01:21:15.036 --> 01:21:16.516
kind of eliminates the problem and also we

01:21:16.537 --> 01:21:19.278
don't recommend edge anyways so um but

01:21:19.358 --> 01:21:21.560
yeah definitely uh hopefully they will fix

01:21:21.579 --> 01:21:23.199
it because i know i mentioned before at

01:21:23.239 --> 01:21:25.421
my last job um i used edge on

01:21:25.440 --> 01:21:26.582
the work computers because first of all

01:21:26.601 --> 01:21:29.363
they issued us those computers and we were

01:21:29.403 --> 01:21:30.863
so deep in the microsoft system that

01:21:30.944 --> 01:21:32.425
everything just integrated better with

01:21:32.564 --> 01:21:34.246
edge and like if i used any other

01:21:34.265 --> 01:21:34.645
browser

01:21:35.365 --> 01:21:38.207
it added so much more friction which i

01:21:38.228 --> 01:21:39.588
didn't have a desk job anyway so it's

01:21:39.609 --> 01:21:40.949
like the less time i spent on my

01:21:40.989 --> 01:21:42.452
computer the better if i was spending a

01:21:42.471 --> 01:21:43.832
lot of time on my computer something was

01:21:43.893 --> 01:21:45.774
wrong because we were like searching for

01:21:45.814 --> 01:21:47.255
manuals or trying to get a hold of

01:21:47.274 --> 01:21:49.817
somebody or like tech support or like so

01:21:50.677 --> 01:21:52.479
yeah i just used edge because again work

01:21:52.519 --> 01:21:53.840
computer i didn't have anything personal

01:21:53.859 --> 01:21:55.180
on there that's their problem if it gets

01:21:55.201 --> 01:21:57.943
breached but um it was you know

01:21:59.757 --> 01:22:00.899
What I mean by that is it's their

01:22:00.960 --> 01:22:02.523
problem because they're the ones deciding

01:22:02.563 --> 01:22:03.685
that we want to use all this insecure

01:22:03.725 --> 01:22:04.006
crap.

01:22:04.046 --> 01:22:05.448
But anyways, so yeah,

01:22:05.469 --> 01:22:08.234
I mean it's very popular in corporate

01:22:08.255 --> 01:22:08.695
environments,

01:22:08.716 --> 01:22:09.677
and they should probably fix that.

01:22:12.984 --> 01:22:13.283
I think,

01:22:14.765 --> 01:22:15.885
I guess that's kind of all we got

01:22:15.925 --> 01:22:16.886
now on those stories.

01:22:16.945 --> 01:22:19.586
So we're gonna start taking viewer

01:22:19.626 --> 01:22:22.287
questions here in just a moment.

01:22:22.627 --> 01:22:24.667
So the chat's been really active,

01:22:24.688 --> 01:22:25.988
which has been super, super awesome.

01:22:26.047 --> 01:22:27.868
But if for some reason you've been holding

01:22:27.929 --> 01:22:29.488
onto questions and you haven't dropped

01:22:29.509 --> 01:22:30.048
them in the chat,

01:22:30.448 --> 01:22:31.409
go ahead and do so.

01:22:32.289 --> 01:22:32.930
But for now,

01:22:32.951 --> 01:22:34.594
we're going to check in on the community

01:22:34.613 --> 01:22:35.014
forum.

01:22:35.094 --> 01:22:37.096
And I mentioned that there's a pretty

01:22:37.216 --> 01:22:37.818
active week.

01:22:37.837 --> 01:22:40.462
I mean, it's always really active.

01:22:40.502 --> 01:22:42.966
But there were a lot of good discussions

01:22:43.025 --> 01:22:43.447
this week.

01:22:45.905 --> 01:22:46.305
Ironically,

01:22:46.326 --> 01:22:47.646
we're actually going to talk about Proton

01:22:47.667 --> 01:22:50.868
again for a minute here because Proton now

01:22:50.908 --> 01:22:53.569
supports post-quantum encryption.

01:22:54.489 --> 01:22:59.912
And I think it was last week that

01:22:59.972 --> 01:23:01.453
Jordan and I talked about this a little

01:23:01.472 --> 01:23:02.594
bit because somebody asked about it in the

01:23:02.634 --> 01:23:02.993
chat,

01:23:03.194 --> 01:23:05.755
but I thought this could be a good

01:23:05.795 --> 01:23:07.435
opportunity to talk about post-quantum

01:23:07.456 --> 01:23:10.478
encryption specifically and what it is and

01:23:10.557 --> 01:23:11.297
all this kind of stuff.

01:23:11.337 --> 01:23:14.118
So definitely correct me if I'm wrong

01:23:14.158 --> 01:23:14.720
here, but I think...

01:23:16.604 --> 01:23:18.284
without turning this into a deeply,

01:23:18.645 --> 01:23:20.326
deeply technical video that hurts my

01:23:20.345 --> 01:23:20.626
brain.

01:23:21.707 --> 01:23:22.306
Basically,

01:23:24.068 --> 01:23:26.289
quantum computers are like the next

01:23:26.350 --> 01:23:27.510
generation of computers.

01:23:28.110 --> 01:23:28.970
You guys probably know this stuff,

01:23:28.990 --> 01:23:29.591
but just in case.

01:23:30.572 --> 01:23:31.073
And basically,

01:23:31.132 --> 01:23:32.613
they're exponentially more powerful than

01:23:32.653 --> 01:23:33.373
current computers,

01:23:33.474 --> 01:23:34.734
aka classical computers.

01:23:35.295 --> 01:23:37.456
And it matters.

01:23:37.837 --> 01:23:37.976
I mean,

01:23:38.016 --> 01:23:38.837
it's a good thing in a lot of

01:23:38.856 --> 01:23:40.478
ways because they're way more powerful.

01:23:40.497 --> 01:23:41.198
They're way faster.

01:23:41.217 --> 01:23:43.119
They can do a lot more computational work.

01:23:43.925 --> 01:23:47.469
But it also has a lot of implications

01:23:47.509 --> 01:23:50.731
for cybersecurity and concerns about being

01:23:50.792 --> 01:23:53.295
able to crack certain forms of encryption,

01:23:53.975 --> 01:23:55.216
even without a zero day or a

01:23:55.277 --> 01:23:55.877
vulnerability.

01:23:55.938 --> 01:23:57.498
Like they're just so powerful that they

01:23:57.519 --> 01:23:57.920
can do.

01:23:58.600 --> 01:24:00.181
Cause here's where I'm starting to get a

01:24:00.202 --> 01:24:00.882
little out of my element.

01:24:01.764 --> 01:24:04.386
Cause modern cryptography basically relies

01:24:04.506 --> 01:24:05.688
on the idea that like,

01:24:07.122 --> 01:24:09.262
The numbers and mathematical equations

01:24:09.302 --> 01:24:11.222
we're using to create this encryption are

01:24:11.283 --> 01:24:14.043
so astronomically high that no computer

01:24:14.083 --> 01:24:16.505
could realistically do these kind of

01:24:16.965 --> 01:24:19.145
computations at scale without knowing the

01:24:19.185 --> 01:24:19.947
password and the key.

01:24:20.587 --> 01:24:22.948
And quantum computers kind of laugh at

01:24:22.967 --> 01:24:23.927
that and say, hold my beer.

01:24:24.948 --> 01:24:27.628
So yeah,

01:24:27.729 --> 01:24:30.010
we're seeing a lot of companies both in

01:24:30.050 --> 01:24:32.451
and out of privacy are really kind of

01:24:32.971 --> 01:24:34.472
starting to roll out post-quantum

01:24:34.493 --> 01:24:34.953
encryption.

01:24:35.514 --> 01:24:37.314
Signal is one in privacy.

01:24:38.076 --> 01:24:38.856
Tudor's one.

01:24:39.337 --> 01:24:40.377
Proton's one now.

01:24:40.677 --> 01:24:43.300
And outside of privacy, we've seen Apple.

01:24:43.399 --> 01:24:45.462
I mean, arguable privacy on that one.

01:24:45.502 --> 01:24:46.122
We've seen Apple.

01:24:46.162 --> 01:24:47.122
We've seen Cloudflare.

01:24:47.703 --> 01:24:49.083
I'm sure there's a lot of others that

01:24:49.104 --> 01:24:49.404
I'm forgetting.

01:24:49.444 --> 01:24:50.625
I think Google is messing with it a

01:24:50.645 --> 01:24:51.225
little bit too.

01:24:52.426 --> 01:24:56.109
So yeah, I think,

01:24:57.591 --> 01:24:59.091
was that a pretty good summary so far?

01:25:00.447 --> 01:25:01.268
Yeah, I believe so.

01:25:01.368 --> 01:25:05.734
I mean, the quantum computers,

01:25:05.854 --> 01:25:07.476
I guess it is sort of the next

01:25:07.617 --> 01:25:08.719
generation of computing.

01:25:09.099 --> 01:25:12.104
Not in the sense that it's going to

01:25:12.123 --> 01:25:13.765
replace any of our current computers right

01:25:13.805 --> 01:25:14.025
now, though,

01:25:14.046 --> 01:25:15.408
because quantum computers are never going

01:25:15.427 --> 01:25:15.627
to be

01:25:16.189 --> 01:25:17.469
good at certain things.

01:25:17.810 --> 01:25:18.569
It's very niche.

01:25:18.989 --> 01:25:20.430
But certainly breaking encryption,

01:25:21.150 --> 01:25:22.251
some encryption schemes,

01:25:22.770 --> 01:25:24.532
is one of the things that they can

01:25:24.572 --> 01:25:24.771
do.

01:25:26.353 --> 01:25:28.613
Not currently because they're extremely

01:25:28.872 --> 01:25:32.215
not powerful, but maybe in the next ten,

01:25:32.255 --> 01:25:33.194
fifteen years,

01:25:33.595 --> 01:25:35.216
it's a very real possibility.

01:25:35.796 --> 01:25:39.237
And post-quantum encryption today is

01:25:39.877 --> 01:25:41.338
Super important, in my opinion,

01:25:41.378 --> 01:25:45.884
because there are definitely a lot of

01:25:45.923 --> 01:25:47.725
scenarios where all of this data could be

01:25:47.805 --> 01:25:52.130
stored and decrypted later by any number

01:25:52.149 --> 01:25:52.550
of parties.

01:25:52.590 --> 01:25:54.072
I would imagine governments are

01:25:54.112 --> 01:25:54.492
probably...

01:25:55.233 --> 01:25:57.634
uh working on collecting as much internet

01:25:57.814 --> 01:26:01.114
traffic as they possibly can um without

01:26:01.435 --> 01:26:02.576
really knowing what to do with that

01:26:02.615 --> 01:26:04.896
traffic yet but we know like for many

01:26:04.936 --> 01:26:06.938
years now the nsa for example has built

01:26:06.957 --> 01:26:09.918
that huge data center in utah basically

01:26:09.979 --> 01:26:14.201
just to store a huge amount of data

01:26:14.881 --> 01:26:17.962
um so for some people and for some

01:26:17.981 --> 01:26:19.403
threat models i think this is a real

01:26:19.443 --> 01:26:22.423
concern when quantum computers would get

01:26:22.444 --> 01:26:23.564
into the hands of

01:26:27.164 --> 01:26:28.286
normal attackers.

01:26:29.046 --> 01:26:30.466
It's hard to say if that'll happen,

01:26:30.547 --> 01:26:31.007
if ever,

01:26:31.087 --> 01:26:33.430
but certainly within the realms of

01:26:33.510 --> 01:26:35.291
governments and probably within the realms

01:26:35.331 --> 01:26:38.293
of huge companies that you might be

01:26:38.333 --> 01:26:40.114
concerned about to get quantum computers

01:26:41.055 --> 01:26:42.856
in ten, fifteen, twenty years or whatever.

01:26:43.198 --> 01:26:46.000
We do have a full video on post-quantum

01:26:46.100 --> 01:26:48.202
encryption on our YouTube channel that I

01:26:48.221 --> 01:26:49.643
would definitely recommend checking out

01:26:50.203 --> 01:26:50.684
because

01:26:52.340 --> 01:26:54.162
There's a bit more nuance to all of

01:26:54.181 --> 01:26:56.783
this, but I think it's a good explainer.

01:26:59.185 --> 01:26:59.386
Yeah,

01:26:59.667 --> 01:27:03.750
I was just logging into Proton right now

01:27:03.770 --> 01:27:06.112
to see if I had access to this.

01:27:06.532 --> 01:27:07.753
And this is a big problem that I

01:27:07.793 --> 01:27:11.195
have with Proton that annoys me a lot,

01:27:11.676 --> 01:27:12.698
that even though

01:27:14.163 --> 01:27:17.385
I have a visionary subscription that they

01:27:17.444 --> 01:27:18.926
say will get you access to all the

01:27:18.945 --> 01:27:19.845
features when they come out.

01:27:19.926 --> 01:27:21.966
They never give me access to features

01:27:22.146 --> 01:27:22.506
first.

01:27:22.907 --> 01:27:25.568
It's always like randomly after a lot of

01:27:25.587 --> 01:27:26.548
other people get them.

01:27:26.828 --> 01:27:28.789
So the blog post does say they're rolling

01:27:28.869 --> 01:27:30.529
out gradually.

01:27:31.551 --> 01:27:33.371
You probably won't see it in your account

01:27:33.411 --> 01:27:35.351
yet, but maybe some of you will.

01:27:36.353 --> 01:27:39.713
Unfortunately, I don't see it yet.

01:27:42.167 --> 01:27:43.287
But what can you do?

01:27:43.467 --> 01:27:45.229
I can complain about Proton all the time,

01:27:45.368 --> 01:27:47.449
and they probably won't change this or

01:27:47.689 --> 01:27:48.409
improve it for me.

01:27:48.449 --> 01:27:49.170
But maybe they will.

01:27:49.270 --> 01:27:50.591
If anyone from Proton is listening,

01:27:51.150 --> 01:27:52.912
you should do things better for visionary

01:27:53.011 --> 01:27:53.492
subscribers.

01:27:53.652 --> 01:27:54.952
I know it's a very niche problem.

01:27:54.992 --> 01:27:56.472
This is like first world problems to have,

01:27:56.672 --> 01:27:57.912
because most people are not going to be

01:27:57.932 --> 01:27:59.054
on a visionary subscription.

01:28:00.454 --> 01:28:00.734
But yeah,

01:28:00.795 --> 01:28:02.095
if you do have access to this,

01:28:02.475 --> 01:28:03.256
let me know how it goes.

01:28:03.716 --> 01:28:04.738
I believe it's optional.

01:28:04.797 --> 01:28:06.298
You have to upgrade to it,

01:28:06.378 --> 01:28:08.380
but that does make a bit of sense

01:28:08.439 --> 01:28:10.180
because, I mean,

01:28:10.220 --> 01:28:13.224
Proton can't do it for you because they

01:28:13.243 --> 01:28:14.885
can't decrypt your data in order to

01:28:14.944 --> 01:28:15.604
re-encrypt it.

01:28:16.405 --> 01:28:17.627
I would imagine at some point,

01:28:17.846 --> 01:28:18.868
maybe Proton could...

01:28:19.757 --> 01:28:21.939
do it automatically when you sign in,

01:28:21.958 --> 01:28:23.600
but they're obviously not doing that now.

01:28:23.899 --> 01:28:25.161
And it's probably a good thing that

01:28:25.180 --> 01:28:27.822
they're not doing it now because it would

01:28:27.841 --> 01:28:29.643
be very hard to do that automatically in

01:28:29.662 --> 01:28:32.344
a way that perfectly protects your data,

01:28:32.425 --> 01:28:33.005
I would imagine.

01:28:33.104 --> 01:28:35.666
So yeah, it's an optional feature.

01:28:38.627 --> 01:28:42.471
Definitely upgrade to it when the feature

01:28:42.492 --> 01:28:45.555
becomes available to you because I think

01:28:45.576 --> 01:28:47.398
it's important to get going now.

01:28:47.637 --> 01:28:48.918
And again, in our video about it,

01:28:49.078 --> 01:28:51.782
we explain more of the reasons why it's

01:28:51.801 --> 01:28:53.543
important to get started with it sooner

01:28:53.583 --> 01:28:54.545
rather than later.

01:28:55.725 --> 01:28:56.367
Yeah, there's the video.

01:28:57.270 --> 01:28:57.750
Yeah, sorry,

01:28:57.770 --> 01:28:59.390
I just found it and pulled it up.

01:29:00.951 --> 01:29:03.112
Yeah, so for any audio listeners,

01:29:03.152 --> 01:29:04.471
it says The Threat That Makes Encryption

01:29:04.572 --> 01:29:04.912
Useless.

01:29:04.952 --> 01:29:07.012
That's the title of the video from October

01:29:07.033 --> 01:29:07.893
of twenty twenty five.

01:29:07.953 --> 01:29:10.293
So definitely check that out.

01:29:10.974 --> 01:29:12.854
And yeah, I

01:29:14.546 --> 01:29:15.988
real quick on the topic of proton and

01:29:16.028 --> 01:29:16.807
not having that switch.

01:29:17.248 --> 01:29:19.489
I think they paused it because I think

01:29:19.510 --> 01:29:21.730
a lot of users were reporting issues that

01:29:21.751 --> 01:29:23.091
it was like breaking proton drive or

01:29:23.112 --> 01:29:23.731
something like that.

01:29:24.171 --> 01:29:25.273
So I think that's why you don't have

01:29:25.292 --> 01:29:25.372
it.

01:29:25.432 --> 01:29:26.514
I think they paused it while they're

01:29:26.533 --> 01:29:27.533
trying to figure that issue out.

01:29:27.554 --> 01:29:28.654
Interesting.

01:29:28.795 --> 01:29:29.034
Okay.

01:29:30.362 --> 01:29:31.122
But yeah,

01:29:31.222 --> 01:29:32.425
one thing I wanted to address here is

01:29:32.765 --> 01:29:33.966
Jordan said it feels a little bit like

01:29:34.067 --> 01:29:34.568
AI hype.

01:29:35.850 --> 01:29:37.452
Yes and no, because I agree with you.

01:29:37.591 --> 01:29:39.175
I've heard a lot of experts talk on

01:29:39.574 --> 01:29:41.957
this topic on like various podcasts and

01:29:41.978 --> 01:29:42.219
stuff.

01:29:42.298 --> 01:29:43.820
And I've heard a lot of them say

01:29:43.860 --> 01:29:44.261
that like,

01:29:45.801 --> 01:29:48.344
it's probably not coming anytime soon.

01:29:48.384 --> 01:29:50.125
Like there's always certain technologies

01:29:50.164 --> 01:29:51.546
that are like in the next five years,

01:29:51.586 --> 01:29:51.765
right?

01:29:51.786 --> 01:29:53.488
Like the running joke is cold fusion.

01:29:54.028 --> 01:29:55.109
Um, for decades,

01:29:55.229 --> 01:29:56.310
scientists have been like, no, no, no.

01:29:56.329 --> 01:29:56.470
Like,

01:29:56.489 --> 01:29:58.150
like we're right on the edge of cracking

01:29:58.211 --> 01:29:58.310
it.

01:29:58.350 --> 01:29:59.231
Like in five years,

01:29:59.271 --> 01:30:00.872
we're all going to be using cold fusion.

01:30:01.292 --> 01:30:02.274
And they've been saying that since like

01:30:02.293 --> 01:30:02.755
the eighties,

01:30:02.795 --> 01:30:03.875
probably even earlier than that.

01:30:04.216 --> 01:30:05.235
So it's kind of become like a running

01:30:05.256 --> 01:30:05.516
gag.

01:30:05.556 --> 01:30:05.957
Like, Oh yeah,

01:30:05.976 --> 01:30:07.078
it's always like five years away.

01:30:07.597 --> 01:30:08.158
And, uh,

01:30:08.179 --> 01:30:09.118
a lot of people are saying that about

01:30:09.158 --> 01:30:11.381
like, uh, AGI, uh,

01:30:11.841 --> 01:30:13.141
artificial general intelligence,

01:30:13.181 --> 01:30:14.021
which is like the actual,

01:30:14.042 --> 01:30:15.243
the stuff you see in sci-fi movies.

01:30:15.703 --> 01:30:16.283
And it's like, you know,

01:30:16.302 --> 01:30:17.323
of course Altman and,

01:30:17.484 --> 01:30:19.645
and everybody's out here trying to hype up

01:30:19.685 --> 01:30:20.364
their stock prices.

01:30:20.385 --> 01:30:20.905
Like, yeah, man,

01:30:20.945 --> 01:30:22.126
we were just going to roll out next

01:30:22.166 --> 01:30:22.305
year.

01:30:22.326 --> 01:30:23.087
It's like, uh, yeah,

01:30:23.167 --> 01:30:24.127
that and cold fusion too.

01:30:24.146 --> 01:30:24.667
Sure thing, buddy.

01:30:25.347 --> 01:30:25.568
Um,

01:30:26.087 --> 01:30:27.788
this one I've heard people be a little

01:30:27.828 --> 01:30:29.270
bit less pessimistic.

01:30:30.069 --> 01:30:31.350
In the sense that they're like, well,

01:30:32.270 --> 01:30:33.952
it's probably not five years away,

01:30:34.572 --> 01:30:36.012
maybe ten years away.

01:30:36.132 --> 01:30:37.894
I mean, it's probably possible.

01:30:38.454 --> 01:30:40.235
It's just like they're definitely

01:30:40.336 --> 01:30:41.636
overhyping how close it is.

01:30:42.698 --> 01:30:44.918
But I think you may have said this

01:30:44.979 --> 01:30:45.920
is like I do still think it's a

01:30:45.939 --> 01:30:47.060
good thing that we're getting ahead of it

01:30:47.121 --> 01:30:48.822
because you mentioned the harvest now

01:30:48.881 --> 01:30:50.042
decrypt later where like.

01:30:50.722 --> 01:30:51.283
The NSA,

01:30:51.323 --> 01:30:53.765
which a quick little piece of trivia for

01:30:53.805 --> 01:30:55.845
anybody who looks at my online presences,

01:30:56.206 --> 01:30:57.907
it's a selfie of me outside of a

01:30:57.947 --> 01:30:58.266
building.

01:30:58.707 --> 01:31:00.347
That is the NSA's data center in Utah.

01:31:00.528 --> 01:31:01.368
I've done that twice now.

01:31:01.389 --> 01:31:03.250
I am absolutely on a list.

01:31:03.289 --> 01:31:05.230
There's not a doubt in my mind.

01:31:06.291 --> 01:31:06.810
So yeah,

01:31:06.891 --> 01:31:09.332
I think the whole point of the NSA's

01:31:09.353 --> 01:31:10.854
data center is just to collect as much

01:31:10.873 --> 01:31:12.293
information as possible so they have it

01:31:12.333 --> 01:31:12.895
later when they...

01:31:13.715 --> 01:31:15.036
quote unquote want slash need it.

01:31:15.595 --> 01:31:16.657
So, um, yeah,

01:31:16.676 --> 01:31:17.817
I think it's really cool that they are

01:31:17.978 --> 01:31:20.059
getting ahead of this, but I'm with you.

01:31:20.418 --> 01:31:21.979
I think I'll probably turn this on

01:31:22.020 --> 01:31:24.280
whenever they roll the feature back out.

01:31:24.341 --> 01:31:24.742
And, um,

01:31:25.322 --> 01:31:26.802
whenever I stopped seeing people say that

01:31:26.842 --> 01:31:28.644
it borked their proton drive,

01:31:28.684 --> 01:31:29.824
not that I use proton drive a whole

01:31:29.845 --> 01:31:31.945
lot, but still it's, uh,

01:31:31.985 --> 01:31:32.746
it's good stuff to have.

01:31:32.786 --> 01:31:35.627
I think personally, um,

01:31:35.728 --> 01:31:37.349
I think somebody else said something too.

01:31:37.756 --> 01:31:39.479
yeah i'll look at this question from uh

01:31:39.760 --> 01:31:42.583
terracotta pie on youtube um and i'll

01:31:42.644 --> 01:31:46.488
actually um share a thread that i saw

01:31:46.668 --> 01:31:48.372
on on x about this from

01:31:51.671 --> 01:31:52.511
Matthew Green,

01:31:53.453 --> 01:31:55.373
if I can get this pulled up.

01:31:55.594 --> 01:31:56.515
I'll sum it up so you don't have

01:31:56.534 --> 01:31:57.655
to read the whole thing.

01:31:59.396 --> 01:32:00.537
Matthew Green, if you don't know,

01:32:01.378 --> 01:32:03.541
he teaches cryptography at Johns Hopkins,

01:32:03.581 --> 01:32:06.422
and he's a big expert in the cryptography

01:32:06.622 --> 01:32:07.024
space.

01:32:07.543 --> 01:32:09.265
And basically what he says about the whole

01:32:09.284 --> 01:32:11.087
quantum computing thing and why it's

01:32:11.167 --> 01:32:13.408
probably not a huge issue now is that

01:32:14.639 --> 01:32:17.782
There isn't really a lot of reason to

01:32:17.902 --> 01:32:19.863
invest in quantum computing for

01:32:19.904 --> 01:32:20.484
businesses.

01:32:21.545 --> 01:32:27.150
Unlike normal computers back in the day,

01:32:29.152 --> 01:32:30.974
traditional computers had very clear

01:32:31.033 --> 01:32:31.675
business impact.

01:32:31.694 --> 01:32:33.697
This is going to improve businesses in so

01:32:33.716 --> 01:32:35.637
many ways as soon as they were developed.

01:32:35.677 --> 01:32:37.300
No matter how slow they were, there were

01:32:37.739 --> 01:32:40.301
huge practical applications for regular

01:32:40.320 --> 01:32:42.462
computers to get those developed and make

01:32:42.481 --> 01:32:44.743
them even better as fast as possible that

01:32:44.802 --> 01:32:46.863
don't really exist for quantum computers

01:32:47.144 --> 01:32:47.545
right now.

01:32:47.604 --> 01:32:48.064
There's not a,

01:32:48.345 --> 01:32:49.545
there's just not a lot of reason that

01:32:49.585 --> 01:32:51.265
businesses would need them in the first

01:32:51.305 --> 01:32:51.525
place.

01:32:51.565 --> 01:32:54.087
So that slows down investments into it and

01:32:54.127 --> 01:32:56.809
that slows down development overall.

01:32:57.548 --> 01:33:01.110
Um, the other point that he made,

01:33:01.190 --> 01:33:03.992
and I think this ties more into, um,

01:33:07.070 --> 01:33:08.252
Well, I guess, yeah,

01:33:08.313 --> 01:33:09.012
I guess your question,

01:33:10.295 --> 01:33:12.016
whether there's a concern about whether

01:33:12.377 --> 01:33:13.719
these could already be in use,

01:33:14.198 --> 01:33:16.561
I think it's fairly unlikely.

01:33:17.582 --> 01:33:19.405
Just because these companies really don't

01:33:19.445 --> 01:33:23.069
have access to super powerful quantum

01:33:23.109 --> 01:33:24.692
computers and

01:33:26.972 --> 01:33:27.733
If they did, I mean,

01:33:27.773 --> 01:33:29.293
there would probably be big announcements.

01:33:29.573 --> 01:33:31.095
The other point that Matthew Green points

01:33:31.135 --> 01:33:32.194
out in this thread, though,

01:33:32.635 --> 01:33:36.036
is that we don't really know exactly what

01:33:36.095 --> 01:33:37.796
the government's capabilities are.

01:33:37.837 --> 01:33:39.898
There's different trains of thought on

01:33:39.957 --> 01:33:40.278
this.

01:33:40.778 --> 01:33:42.158
Some people would think that the

01:33:42.198 --> 01:33:43.479
government and their technical

01:33:43.519 --> 01:33:47.041
capabilities has really fallen behind the

01:33:47.480 --> 01:33:49.421
academic and tech community,

01:33:49.461 --> 01:33:51.822
and that big tech is really pushing all

01:33:51.862 --> 01:33:52.563
of these improvements.

01:33:52.662 --> 01:33:53.243
And the

01:33:54.447 --> 01:33:55.967
what's available to big tech now might

01:33:56.127 --> 01:33:57.908
just be the best in the world.

01:33:58.048 --> 01:34:00.171
But some people think the government could

01:34:00.211 --> 01:34:00.511
be like,

01:34:01.492 --> 01:34:03.172
thirty years or fifty years ahead of

01:34:03.193 --> 01:34:04.512
what's publicly known right now,

01:34:04.654 --> 01:34:06.675
and they could have access to all of

01:34:06.694 --> 01:34:09.877
these quantum computer resources and could

01:34:09.896 --> 01:34:12.457
be using them to break encryption at the

01:34:12.497 --> 01:34:12.759
moment.

01:34:12.878 --> 01:34:14.739
So it depends on what you think about

01:34:14.939 --> 01:34:15.539
the government,

01:34:15.680 --> 01:34:18.141
but we likely wouldn't know because

01:34:19.507 --> 01:34:20.189
As he points out,

01:34:20.328 --> 01:34:21.750
if the government has access to this

01:34:21.770 --> 01:34:22.369
capability,

01:34:22.489 --> 01:34:25.193
they would try and keep this as secret

01:34:25.292 --> 01:34:26.413
as they possibly can.

01:34:27.014 --> 01:34:27.614
Um,

01:34:27.654 --> 01:34:29.055
which has always been the case when

01:34:29.355 --> 01:34:30.936
governments have new encryption schemes or

01:34:30.957 --> 01:34:31.358
whatever,

01:34:31.417 --> 01:34:34.399
you can think about like the Enigma

01:34:34.439 --> 01:34:37.141
machine back in what world war two.

01:34:37.622 --> 01:34:39.743
Um, the, the British, once they,

01:34:39.963 --> 01:34:40.585
once they cracked it,

01:34:40.625 --> 01:34:43.466
they went to extraordinary lengths to hide

01:34:43.506 --> 01:34:45.529
the fact that they could now break this

01:34:45.569 --> 01:34:46.369
encryption scheme that,

01:34:46.510 --> 01:34:48.030
that the Germans were using because.

01:34:49.024 --> 01:34:51.645
having that power and keeping it to

01:34:51.666 --> 01:34:53.806
yourself and not sharing it is super

01:34:53.827 --> 01:34:54.226
important.

01:34:54.386 --> 01:34:55.908
And if they had quantum computing

01:34:55.948 --> 01:34:56.528
resources,

01:34:56.627 --> 01:34:59.009
that would be like a huge massive

01:34:59.048 --> 01:35:00.689
advantage to every government and they

01:35:00.710 --> 01:35:04.451
would be definitely trying to keep that as

01:35:04.490 --> 01:35:06.131
secret as they possibly can.

01:35:07.532 --> 01:35:09.613
So this whole thread was basically in

01:35:09.672 --> 01:35:10.673
response to a lot of

01:35:11.484 --> 01:35:13.365
crypto people and Bitcoin people are like,

01:35:13.405 --> 01:35:13.586
well,

01:35:13.886 --> 01:35:15.686
we're going to know when quantum computers

01:35:15.726 --> 01:35:17.927
are powerful because somebody will use it

01:35:17.967 --> 01:35:20.048
to hack Bitcoin, basically.

01:35:21.789 --> 01:35:22.890
And the point of this thread is that

01:35:22.990 --> 01:35:24.971
it's not really the case that that would

01:35:24.992 --> 01:35:25.292
happen.

01:35:25.431 --> 01:35:26.693
I mean, in the grand scheme of things,

01:35:26.712 --> 01:35:27.993
there's a lot of money in Bitcoin,

01:35:28.033 --> 01:35:31.135
but it's not like to the government or

01:35:31.175 --> 01:35:33.275
to somebody else who would want these

01:35:33.315 --> 01:35:35.377
quantum computing resources.

01:35:36.978 --> 01:35:37.899
The whole Bitcoin

01:35:39.108 --> 01:35:41.809
market uh value is probably a drop in

01:35:41.849 --> 01:35:43.409
the bucket for them and they would be

01:35:43.489 --> 01:35:45.430
much more incentivized to not not do

01:35:45.489 --> 01:35:47.511
something like that and to keep it secret

01:35:47.551 --> 01:35:50.192
instead so yeah that's basically the whole

01:35:50.212 --> 01:35:53.233
thing i would say we don't know for

01:35:53.292 --> 01:35:59.095
sure um but i i would say it's

01:35:59.154 --> 01:36:01.796
fairly universally accepted that's

01:36:01.855 --> 01:36:06.297
probably going to be a problem you know

01:36:06.337 --> 01:36:07.118
within the next

01:36:08.652 --> 01:36:10.453
I mean, even conservatively,

01:36:10.493 --> 01:36:12.614
probably thirty to fifty years,

01:36:14.377 --> 01:36:16.358
because there is progress being made on

01:36:17.399 --> 01:36:18.640
all of that.

01:36:19.260 --> 01:36:21.841
Neville Matthew on YouTube asked,

01:36:22.243 --> 01:36:23.863
I'm assuming there's a considerable amount

01:36:23.923 --> 01:36:25.524
of compute power to crack these

01:36:25.564 --> 01:36:27.407
encryptions by quantum computers.

01:36:27.667 --> 01:36:28.547
I don't, okay,

01:36:28.568 --> 01:36:29.868
I don't understand what you mean exactly.

01:36:30.609 --> 01:36:31.449
I assume you're asking

01:36:31.890 --> 01:36:34.011
whether a considerable amount of compute

01:36:34.051 --> 01:36:35.351
power is required.

01:36:35.891 --> 01:36:37.313
And the answer is yes,

01:36:37.372 --> 01:36:39.314
you need like a massive amount,

01:36:39.713 --> 01:36:42.034
like quantum computers are nowhere even

01:36:42.095 --> 01:36:45.256
close to being near to what you would

01:36:45.317 --> 01:36:47.057
need to have any sort of practical

01:36:47.097 --> 01:36:48.519
application and to, to,

01:36:49.158 --> 01:36:51.720
craig encryption so we're we're very long

01:36:51.760 --> 01:36:54.322
ways off um in the quantum computing power

01:36:54.502 --> 01:36:55.521
as far as we know like i just

01:36:55.563 --> 01:36:59.385
said doesn't exist yet um so i think

01:36:59.604 --> 01:37:01.685
that answers it either way right now there

01:37:01.725 --> 01:37:03.907
is not a considerable amount of quantum

01:37:03.947 --> 01:37:05.148
computing power um

01:37:05.948 --> 01:37:08.510
at least among these tech companies and

01:37:08.550 --> 01:37:09.850
the academics who are publishing this

01:37:09.890 --> 01:37:10.109
stuff.

01:37:10.751 --> 01:37:12.731
And yes, you would need far,

01:37:12.792 --> 01:37:16.573
far more than what we have now to

01:37:16.594 --> 01:37:17.854
do anything practical with it.

01:37:17.994 --> 01:37:19.296
But, you know,

01:37:19.336 --> 01:37:20.355
progress is always being made.

01:37:22.997 --> 01:37:24.838
My only thought is what you said about

01:37:24.899 --> 01:37:27.480
governments aren't interested in the

01:37:27.520 --> 01:37:28.600
market cap of Bitcoin.

01:37:29.462 --> 01:37:31.382
Asterisk does not apply to North Korea.

01:37:32.118 --> 01:37:33.699
Yeah, that's certainly true.

01:37:34.000 --> 01:37:35.720
I don't think North Korea is on the

01:37:35.780 --> 01:37:38.020
bleeding edge of quantum computing,

01:37:38.402 --> 01:37:40.421
but you never know what's going on over

01:37:40.442 --> 01:37:40.582
there.

01:37:40.603 --> 01:37:42.283
Yeah, no kidding.

01:37:43.404 --> 01:37:44.444
I never miss a good chance to take

01:37:44.463 --> 01:37:48.046
a pot shot at that guy.

01:37:48.065 --> 01:37:51.587
We did have one other forum thread here

01:37:51.987 --> 01:37:53.988
that was interesting.

01:37:54.007 --> 01:37:56.208
It's about IVPN has revamped.

01:37:56.248 --> 01:37:58.770
I'm actually going to share their blog

01:37:58.810 --> 01:37:59.149
post here.

01:37:59.170 --> 01:37:59.909
Not the forum thread,

01:37:59.930 --> 01:38:01.270
but the blog post from IVPN.

01:38:01.970 --> 01:38:04.912
Let me swap it around here a little

01:38:04.932 --> 01:38:05.113
bit.

01:38:05.132 --> 01:38:07.835
IVPN has revamped their plans.

01:38:07.975 --> 01:38:11.356
So for those of you who don't know,

01:38:11.476 --> 01:38:12.636
I want to say about two years ago,

01:38:12.657 --> 01:38:13.377
I want to say it was the end

01:38:13.398 --> 01:38:14.217
of twenty twenty four.

01:38:15.399 --> 01:38:17.159
IVPN purchased Safing,

01:38:17.239 --> 01:38:19.041
which is the company that makes Portmaster

01:38:19.902 --> 01:38:23.243
and SPN, which is a pretty awesome.

01:38:23.804 --> 01:38:25.265
I think Kerry Parker once described it as

01:38:25.284 --> 01:38:26.225
a reverse firewall.

01:38:26.305 --> 01:38:27.747
It's kind of like a like on Mac.

01:38:27.787 --> 01:38:29.488
We have things like Lulu and Little

01:38:29.507 --> 01:38:29.787
Snitch.

01:38:30.368 --> 01:38:35.152
And Port Master is probably the best

01:38:35.212 --> 01:38:36.153
Windows version of that.

01:38:36.193 --> 01:38:37.333
I know there's also things like Simple

01:38:37.354 --> 01:38:38.154
Wall, for example.

01:38:38.234 --> 01:38:39.775
But Port Master was really slick.

01:38:39.796 --> 01:38:40.377
It's really good.

01:38:40.417 --> 01:38:41.738
It comes with good defaults out of the

01:38:41.757 --> 01:38:42.137
box.

01:38:42.158 --> 01:38:44.520
I think I mentioned in previous episodes

01:38:44.539 --> 01:38:45.962
that whenever my wife gets a new computer,

01:38:46.002 --> 01:38:48.344
she asks me to set it up and

01:38:48.904 --> 01:38:49.864
do all the privacy stuff.

01:38:49.885 --> 01:38:50.765
And that's one of the things I do

01:38:50.786 --> 01:38:51.806
is put Port Master on there.

01:38:53.658 --> 01:38:54.078
Admittedly,

01:38:54.099 --> 01:38:55.399
it does not work very well with other

01:38:55.439 --> 01:38:56.020
VPNs.

01:38:56.161 --> 01:38:58.182
It's designed to be used either by itself

01:38:58.302 --> 01:38:59.304
or with SPN,

01:38:59.344 --> 01:39:02.327
which is their version of a VPN.

01:39:02.386 --> 01:39:03.769
It's not really a VPN per se.

01:39:04.510 --> 01:39:05.671
It's like a multi-hop VPN.

01:39:05.930 --> 01:39:06.591
It's interesting.

01:39:06.872 --> 01:39:08.314
They do some interesting stuff with SPN.

01:39:08.333 --> 01:39:08.894
I like it a lot.

01:39:09.734 --> 01:39:13.599
Um, yeah, so IVPN acquired safing and, uh,

01:39:13.618 --> 01:39:14.979
they basically said that they were going

01:39:15.000 --> 01:39:18.122
to roll port master into IVPN and there

01:39:18.143 --> 01:39:19.783
was going to be not a required

01:39:19.823 --> 01:39:20.345
functionality.

01:39:20.385 --> 01:39:21.746
Like you could still use them separately

01:39:21.765 --> 01:39:22.367
if you want to,

01:39:22.827 --> 01:39:23.587
but there was going to be

01:39:23.688 --> 01:39:24.469
interoperability.

01:39:24.668 --> 01:39:25.109
And, uh,

01:39:25.128 --> 01:39:26.371
they also announced that they were working

01:39:26.390 --> 01:39:28.332
on some other stuff like, uh,

01:39:28.573 --> 01:39:30.413
an email aliasing feature and a DNS

01:39:30.434 --> 01:39:30.734
feature.

01:39:31.375 --> 01:39:33.396
And that all appears to be coming to

01:39:33.417 --> 01:39:34.016
fruition now.

01:39:34.096 --> 01:39:36.599
So there are three plans for IVPN.

01:39:36.618 --> 01:39:38.100
There's standard plus and pro,

01:39:38.280 --> 01:39:39.140
which are sixty,

01:39:39.220 --> 01:39:40.301
eighty and one hundred dollars a year,

01:39:40.341 --> 01:39:40.922
respectively.

01:39:41.703 --> 01:39:43.404
And basically the changes are the standard

01:39:43.444 --> 01:39:45.485
VPN is now including multi hop and a

01:39:45.525 --> 01:39:46.466
five device limit,

01:39:47.587 --> 01:39:48.509
which I kind of wish they did.

01:39:48.689 --> 01:39:49.810
Oops, wrong way.

01:39:50.529 --> 01:39:52.192
Still getting used to max.

01:39:52.631 --> 01:39:53.613
I kind of wish they would have a.

01:39:55.632 --> 01:39:56.293
Oh, OK, here we go.

01:39:56.354 --> 01:39:57.354
So for the standard plan,

01:39:57.453 --> 01:39:59.676
it was two devices and did not include

01:39:59.716 --> 01:40:02.096
multi-hop.

01:40:03.217 --> 01:40:06.380
The plus plan will also include the new

01:40:06.699 --> 01:40:07.400
email, AOListing,

01:40:07.421 --> 01:40:08.402
and DNS that I mentioned.

01:40:08.502 --> 01:40:10.042
And the pro plan will offer a ten

01:40:10.063 --> 01:40:12.043
device limit and access to all additional

01:40:12.083 --> 01:40:14.104
services, including Port Master Pro,

01:40:14.586 --> 01:40:16.466
which for the moment is only available on

01:40:16.487 --> 01:40:17.627
Windows and Linux, unfortunately.

01:40:19.384 --> 01:40:22.164
And they said that there are no price

01:40:22.204 --> 01:40:24.305
changes on existing pro and standard

01:40:24.345 --> 01:40:24.805
plans.

01:40:25.185 --> 01:40:26.445
Pro is now the pro suite.

01:40:26.865 --> 01:40:28.667
So, yeah,

01:40:28.726 --> 01:40:30.827
I think if I'm reading this correctly,

01:40:31.648 --> 01:40:33.268
basically prices haven't changed.

01:40:33.328 --> 01:40:34.747
You're just getting more bang for your

01:40:34.787 --> 01:40:36.269
buck regardless of which plan you're on

01:40:36.309 --> 01:40:36.708
because.

01:40:37.288 --> 01:40:38.550
Again, like even the lowest plan.

01:40:38.590 --> 01:40:39.690
Now you've got more devices.

01:40:39.751 --> 01:40:40.752
Now you've got multi hop,

01:40:41.091 --> 01:40:41.993
which is super cool.

01:40:42.512 --> 01:40:44.234
Multi hop is, I would argue,

01:40:44.274 --> 01:40:45.796
not necessary in every situation,

01:40:45.815 --> 01:40:47.337
because there is a considerable hit to

01:40:47.377 --> 01:40:47.777
speed.

01:40:47.856 --> 01:40:49.639
But there are times when it absolutely

01:40:49.658 --> 01:40:50.158
makes sense.

01:40:51.300 --> 01:40:51.460
Yeah,

01:40:51.500 --> 01:40:53.121
it says pro went from seven to ten,

01:40:53.240 --> 01:40:55.203
and you have access to all these different

01:40:56.283 --> 01:40:58.284
port master pro male x and mod DNS.

01:40:58.305 --> 01:40:58.926
So yeah,

01:40:59.792 --> 01:41:03.854
Yeah, I like IVPN.

01:41:03.913 --> 01:41:04.675
I think they're really cool.

01:41:04.814 --> 01:41:06.755
I know I cannot find it to save

01:41:06.774 --> 01:41:07.175
my life.

01:41:07.796 --> 01:41:08.836
I should probably try again because it's

01:41:08.855 --> 01:41:09.216
been a while.

01:41:09.775 --> 01:41:10.997
But I swear back when I was on

01:41:11.016 --> 01:41:11.556
surveillance report,

01:41:11.676 --> 01:41:13.597
there was a period of time,

01:41:13.797 --> 01:41:15.118
like a six month window, I think,

01:41:15.578 --> 01:41:19.340
where we were covering VPN

01:41:19.359 --> 01:41:20.020
vulnerabilities.

01:41:21.161 --> 01:41:21.980
And I swear to God,

01:41:22.121 --> 01:41:24.341
every single one of them was like, oh,

01:41:24.362 --> 01:41:26.342
it affects this VPN, this VPN, like Nord,

01:41:26.363 --> 01:41:27.542
Surfshark, Proton,

01:41:28.003 --> 01:41:29.304
but does not affect IVPN.

01:41:29.564 --> 01:41:30.765
And they were like, I swear to God,

01:41:30.784 --> 01:41:32.024
there were like four or five of those

01:41:32.045 --> 01:41:33.845
in a row where they would find

01:41:33.865 --> 01:41:34.426
vulnerabilities.

01:41:34.445 --> 01:41:36.207
And there was something about the way IVPN

01:41:36.226 --> 01:41:37.766
was running their architecture that it

01:41:37.787 --> 01:41:38.567
didn't impact them.

01:41:38.587 --> 01:41:39.347
And I always thought that was...

01:41:40.247 --> 01:41:41.269
I always thought that really spoke to

01:41:41.309 --> 01:41:41.969
their security.

01:41:42.048 --> 01:41:43.990
So they are one of the VPNs we

01:41:44.011 --> 01:41:44.350
recommend.

01:41:44.371 --> 01:41:45.351
We also recommend Mulvad.

01:41:45.372 --> 01:41:46.332
We also recommend Proton.

01:41:46.353 --> 01:41:47.594
They're all really great choices.

01:41:47.934 --> 01:41:49.095
They all have pros and cons.

01:41:50.215 --> 01:41:52.216
IVPN has a few cool features that I

01:41:52.256 --> 01:41:54.479
really like, but yeah,

01:41:54.639 --> 01:41:56.760
I think that's kind of these new exciting

01:41:56.800 --> 01:41:57.341
changes.

01:41:57.980 --> 01:41:58.261
Jonah,

01:41:58.280 --> 01:42:00.662
did you have any thoughts about IVPN's new

01:42:00.703 --> 01:42:01.083
direction?

01:42:01.104 --> 01:42:05.065
I was just taking a look at the

01:42:05.146 --> 01:42:06.327
forum thread here.

01:42:06.386 --> 01:42:07.047
I don't want to like,

01:42:09.153 --> 01:42:11.694
volunteer him to answer a ton of questions

01:42:11.734 --> 01:42:13.657
necessarily but i will say victor from

01:42:13.777 --> 01:42:15.779
ivpn is on our farm and it's pretty

01:42:16.359 --> 01:42:18.621
active at least in ivpn related threads um

01:42:18.680 --> 01:42:20.622
and i saw he was answering some questions

01:42:21.042 --> 01:42:23.305
about the changes in this forum thread so

01:42:23.364 --> 01:42:25.506
if you want to check that out if

01:42:25.527 --> 01:42:26.667
you have any questions he might have

01:42:26.688 --> 01:42:31.072
already uh shared some stuff i totally

01:42:31.112 --> 01:42:32.533
agree that um

01:42:33.912 --> 01:42:36.833
The device limit changes are very welcome.

01:42:37.675 --> 01:42:39.936
Two is very limiting for sure,

01:42:40.157 --> 01:42:42.219
especially as Jordan just said in the

01:42:42.259 --> 01:42:45.881
chat.

01:42:45.921 --> 01:42:46.141
To me,

01:42:46.181 --> 01:42:48.023
it never made a lot of sense because

01:42:48.122 --> 01:42:49.724
I think a lot of services were offering

01:42:49.783 --> 01:42:51.125
more than that for quite some time.

01:42:52.768 --> 01:42:56.189
Also, there are workarounds for it.

01:42:56.229 --> 01:42:58.511
Like on your home devices,

01:42:58.532 --> 01:43:00.774
you could use IVPN on your router to

01:43:00.814 --> 01:43:03.015
kind of connect as many devices as you

01:43:03.414 --> 01:43:03.775
want.

01:43:06.377 --> 01:43:07.478
But then you can only do that at

01:43:07.537 --> 01:43:07.818
home.

01:43:08.298 --> 01:43:09.118
You can't do it for a lot of

01:43:09.158 --> 01:43:09.800
remote devices.

01:43:10.079 --> 01:43:10.520
Obviously,

01:43:10.539 --> 01:43:12.881
you have to distinguish your pricing plans

01:43:13.521 --> 01:43:14.063
somehow.

01:43:14.243 --> 01:43:16.543
But yeah,

01:43:16.604 --> 01:43:19.126
I think it still makes sense for them

01:43:19.206 --> 01:43:21.027
to increase it at least a little bit.

01:43:23.449 --> 01:43:24.449
Otherwise, yeah,

01:43:24.510 --> 01:43:25.951
it seems to be a good value.

01:43:29.032 --> 01:43:29.872
As far as I know,

01:43:30.033 --> 01:43:33.253
they had they had all three plans before,

01:43:33.354 --> 01:43:33.554
right?

01:43:33.793 --> 01:43:35.375
There's not a new one.

01:43:37.015 --> 01:43:38.155
I don't remember what the difference was

01:43:38.256 --> 01:43:40.076
between them, though.

01:43:40.817 --> 01:43:41.777
I'm gonna go dig it up on the

01:43:41.796 --> 01:43:44.377
web archive.

01:43:44.438 --> 01:43:44.698
Yeah,

01:43:44.898 --> 01:43:46.259
cuz I'll just I'll just go back like

01:43:46.279 --> 01:43:46.939
a week or something.

01:43:50.247 --> 01:43:51.548
Because I don't remember how you got

01:43:51.689 --> 01:43:56.055
access to mail exit my DNS before.

01:43:57.436 --> 01:43:57.697
No, no, no.

01:43:57.738 --> 01:43:58.217
Those are new.

01:43:58.337 --> 01:44:00.041
I think those didn't exist before,

01:44:00.400 --> 01:44:01.882
but that's being added to the plan.

01:44:02.703 --> 01:44:04.025
They existed before today, though,

01:44:04.065 --> 01:44:05.488
I thought like male X was announced a

01:44:05.507 --> 01:44:06.550
while ago, I believe.

01:44:06.670 --> 01:44:08.070
It was, it was announced a while ago,

01:44:08.091 --> 01:44:09.152
but I think it was in like closed

01:44:09.192 --> 01:44:10.632
beta because I remember they actually,

01:44:11.293 --> 01:44:11.975
I feel bad about this.

01:44:11.994 --> 01:44:12.555
Um,

01:44:12.574 --> 01:44:15.056
they actually sent me an invite to test

01:44:15.096 --> 01:44:16.057
it out and I got it.

01:44:16.078 --> 01:44:16.838
Like I made an account,

01:44:16.939 --> 01:44:18.860
I got into it and then I like,

01:44:19.421 --> 01:44:20.122
I was like, okay,

01:44:20.181 --> 01:44:21.302
now I need to find something I can

01:44:21.363 --> 01:44:21.962
sign up with.

01:44:22.002 --> 01:44:23.444
And I just kind of forgot to go

01:44:23.465 --> 01:44:24.605
back.

01:44:24.645 --> 01:44:24.826
Oops.

01:44:26.506 --> 01:44:26.806
Oh no.

01:44:26.827 --> 01:44:28.069
It looks like a week ago.

01:44:28.088 --> 01:44:29.510
It looks like there were only two plans.

01:44:30.761 --> 01:44:31.162
That's what I was.

01:44:31.282 --> 01:44:31.481
Okay.

01:44:31.502 --> 01:44:32.443
So what were the two plans?

01:44:32.903 --> 01:44:34.884
So there was IVP and standard that says

01:44:34.904 --> 01:44:35.684
all protocols,

01:44:35.724 --> 01:44:37.324
two devices and anti-tracker,

01:44:37.524 --> 01:44:38.864
and that was.

01:44:38.885 --> 01:44:39.206
A year.

01:44:39.605 --> 01:44:41.707
And then there's pro that's all protocols,

01:44:41.787 --> 01:44:42.506
seven devices,

01:44:42.527 --> 01:44:44.507
anti-tracker and multi-hop and that's the

01:44:44.528 --> 01:44:45.347
a hundred dollars a year.

01:44:45.427 --> 01:44:47.689
So it looks like,

01:44:48.710 --> 01:44:51.890
so they added the plus plan.

01:44:53.112 --> 01:44:53.372
Yeah.

01:44:53.591 --> 01:44:55.912
And, and then ups the device limit.

01:44:56.092 --> 01:44:56.353
Okay.

01:44:57.595 --> 01:44:57.774
Okay,

01:44:57.814 --> 01:44:59.657
that's what I thought happened because I

01:44:59.697 --> 01:45:01.078
did not remember three before.

01:45:01.519 --> 01:45:05.221
But the changes are welcome.

01:45:05.322 --> 01:45:07.724
I definitely think if iVPN is going to

01:45:07.863 --> 01:45:12.067
add more services like MailX and ModDNS,

01:45:12.568 --> 01:45:14.970
it is great that they added an

01:45:15.130 --> 01:45:16.831
intermediate plus plan instead of...

01:45:18.985 --> 01:45:21.886
just increasing the price of the standard

01:45:21.907 --> 01:45:22.127
plan.

01:45:22.167 --> 01:45:24.728
You always want to see a bit more

01:45:24.787 --> 01:45:25.347
delineation,

01:45:25.387 --> 01:45:28.050
especially with features that probably not

01:45:28.109 --> 01:45:29.149
everyone needs.

01:45:29.210 --> 01:45:31.310
Some people are going to IVPN just because

01:45:31.551 --> 01:45:33.112
they only want a VPN and nothing else.

01:45:33.292 --> 01:45:37.533
And it's nice that you can still get

01:45:37.554 --> 01:45:39.234
the standard plan that they had before

01:45:39.515 --> 01:45:43.195
with the increased device limit for the

01:45:43.235 --> 01:45:43.796
same price.

01:45:44.396 --> 01:45:45.436
And it's also nice that you can get

01:45:45.476 --> 01:45:46.478
these additional features

01:45:48.720 --> 01:45:51.461
In the meantime, as an intermediate plan,

01:45:52.301 --> 01:45:55.462
I haven't used Portmaster in quite some

01:45:55.521 --> 01:45:55.921
time,

01:45:57.483 --> 01:46:01.844
so I'm not sure whether I would say

01:46:02.043 --> 01:46:03.625
it's worth the extra money,

01:46:03.664 --> 01:46:04.704
but maybe it is.

01:46:05.704 --> 01:46:07.746
A lot of people on our forum seem

01:46:07.765 --> 01:46:10.346
to use Portmaster and like it, so...

01:46:12.068 --> 01:46:13.547
Definitely worth checking out, at least.

01:46:13.648 --> 01:46:14.708
I should check it out again,

01:46:14.809 --> 01:46:17.710
although I see they still don't support

01:46:17.890 --> 01:46:18.350
macOS,

01:46:18.390 --> 01:46:20.551
which is what I told them I kind

01:46:20.591 --> 01:46:23.393
of wanted from the beginning when Saving

01:46:23.432 --> 01:46:24.474
launched Portmaster.

01:46:24.493 --> 01:46:26.435
And it seems like that has never changed.

01:46:26.954 --> 01:46:29.235
So I couldn't use it on all of

01:46:29.275 --> 01:46:32.016
my devices, then only my Linux devices,

01:46:32.037 --> 01:46:34.838
which is kind of unfortunate for me.

01:46:35.019 --> 01:46:36.560
But I guess if you use Linux,

01:46:37.699 --> 01:46:38.581
you wouldn't have that problem.

01:46:39.844 --> 01:46:41.485
Uh, and they also,

01:46:41.565 --> 01:46:42.546
I was just going to say on their

01:46:42.726 --> 01:46:43.546
old pricing plans,

01:46:43.606 --> 01:46:45.748
they advertised like the two and three

01:46:45.788 --> 01:46:47.291
year plans with an additional discount.

01:46:47.350 --> 01:46:47.911
It looks like they,

01:46:48.311 --> 01:46:49.453
they do still have those.

01:46:49.472 --> 01:46:51.134
They just don't show it on the pricing

01:46:51.173 --> 01:46:51.715
plan anymore.

01:46:51.755 --> 01:46:54.117
So if I try to buy a plan,

01:46:54.136 --> 01:46:56.378
you can see those additional tiers.

01:46:56.679 --> 01:46:56.719
Um,

01:46:56.738 --> 01:46:57.880
and that seems like a good option if

01:46:57.920 --> 01:47:00.783
you want even more of a discount, um,

01:47:01.462 --> 01:47:06.367
than, than they already provide.

01:47:06.386 --> 01:47:06.908
Nate, you're muted.

01:47:08.952 --> 01:47:10.193
Okay.

01:47:10.212 --> 01:47:10.292
Yeah,

01:47:10.313 --> 01:47:11.554
I'm gonna have to test out MailX for

01:47:11.594 --> 01:47:11.774
sure.

01:47:11.793 --> 01:47:13.135
Because I think I'm,

01:47:13.154 --> 01:47:14.936
I'm always I'm very happy with simple

01:47:14.957 --> 01:47:16.198
login and Addy.

01:47:16.337 --> 01:47:17.618
But I think it's one.

01:47:17.658 --> 01:47:18.760
It's kind of like email, right?

01:47:18.819 --> 01:47:21.823
Like Tudor and Proton and mailbox are all

01:47:21.863 --> 01:47:22.082
good.

01:47:22.122 --> 01:47:23.163
But it would be nice to have a

01:47:23.224 --> 01:47:24.345
little bit more competition.

01:47:25.065 --> 01:47:27.087
Instead of encrypted messenger number five

01:47:27.108 --> 01:47:28.088
hundred and fifty seven million.

01:47:28.948 --> 01:47:30.489
Um, and I, I feel that way about,

01:47:30.970 --> 01:47:32.770
uh, uh, like aliasing services too.

01:47:32.810 --> 01:47:33.671
It would be nice to have a little

01:47:33.711 --> 01:47:34.051
bit more.

01:47:34.391 --> 01:47:34.652
Cause I mean,

01:47:34.671 --> 01:47:36.192
there are things like Firefox relay,

01:47:36.212 --> 01:47:36.693
for example,

01:47:36.733 --> 01:47:38.273
but they're very limited in what they can

01:47:38.292 --> 01:47:40.314
do compared to something like simple login

01:47:40.413 --> 01:47:40.854
or Addy.

01:47:40.894 --> 01:47:42.154
So, um,

01:47:42.175 --> 01:47:43.416
I'm really curious to check that out,

01:47:43.475 --> 01:47:45.136
but I was just going to say, yeah,

01:47:45.256 --> 01:47:47.636
I, um, up until last year, cause, uh,

01:47:47.676 --> 01:47:48.717
when, when we moved,

01:47:48.997 --> 01:47:51.019
we really scaled down a lot of our,

01:47:51.158 --> 01:47:52.619
our stuff to kind of save money.

01:47:52.859 --> 01:47:53.340
And, uh,

01:47:54.354 --> 01:47:59.118
Um, I used to have SPN and it,

01:47:59.198 --> 01:48:00.179
it's definitely come a long way.

01:48:00.219 --> 01:48:01.179
When I first started using it,

01:48:01.219 --> 01:48:03.860
it had a lot of like, um, disconnects,

01:48:03.900 --> 01:48:04.461
I guess you could say,

01:48:04.501 --> 01:48:05.521
like there were a lot of times that

01:48:05.561 --> 01:48:06.922
things wouldn't load and I would have to

01:48:06.943 --> 01:48:09.623
like on like disconnect and connect again

01:48:10.364 --> 01:48:11.604
to get it to like reestablish the

01:48:11.626 --> 01:48:12.065
connection.

01:48:12.286 --> 01:48:13.667
Um, they really fixed that stability.

01:48:14.646 --> 01:48:15.528
I, I liked it.

01:48:15.608 --> 01:48:17.088
I never really noticed any issues with it

01:48:17.309 --> 01:48:18.329
other than again, everyone,

01:48:18.369 --> 01:48:19.310
it would still do that every once in

01:48:19.329 --> 01:48:19.489
a while,

01:48:19.510 --> 01:48:20.631
but nowhere near as bad as it used

01:48:20.650 --> 01:48:20.791
to.

01:48:21.390 --> 01:48:22.171
I think the, um,

01:48:23.376 --> 01:48:25.417
The big issue that I have with it

01:48:25.457 --> 01:48:25.858
is, again,

01:48:25.898 --> 01:48:27.298
the fact that it does not work well

01:48:27.319 --> 01:48:29.220
with third party VPNs,

01:48:29.261 --> 01:48:31.643
which I don't know if that's maybe

01:48:31.682 --> 01:48:33.344
something about the architecture and the

01:48:33.363 --> 01:48:34.324
way that it's worked,

01:48:34.484 --> 01:48:35.466
the way that it works.

01:48:35.506 --> 01:48:37.568
Because like, like, again,

01:48:37.627 --> 01:48:38.628
I put it on my wife's computer because

01:48:38.649 --> 01:48:39.989
she doesn't usually use a VPN.

01:48:40.430 --> 01:48:41.811
She doesn't really care for them.

01:48:42.431 --> 01:48:44.854
But on my computer,

01:48:44.953 --> 01:48:46.515
it's either basically you have to use SPN.

01:48:47.438 --> 01:48:50.282
you have to use the router level VPN,

01:48:50.322 --> 01:48:51.644
which I don't like to do because there's

01:48:51.663 --> 01:48:53.105
certain things that I trust and I want

01:48:53.126 --> 01:48:54.027
to send outside the tunnel,

01:48:54.046 --> 01:48:55.068
like Tor or Signal,

01:48:55.849 --> 01:48:59.234
or I just can't use Portmaster.

01:48:59.253 --> 01:48:59.954
And unfortunately,

01:48:59.975 --> 01:49:00.775
that's where I'm at right now.

01:49:01.055 --> 01:49:02.198
So, yeah.

01:49:02.578 --> 01:49:03.460
I don't know.

01:49:03.520 --> 01:49:03.979
I like it though.

01:49:04.020 --> 01:49:05.082
It's got a really clean UI.

01:49:05.810 --> 01:49:07.631
The SPN is a nice benefit.

01:49:08.011 --> 01:49:10.771
I was just looking at the Portmaster

01:49:10.792 --> 01:49:12.233
pricing because there's another point I

01:49:12.252 --> 01:49:12.953
want to make after this.

01:49:12.972 --> 01:49:13.592
But I will say,

01:49:15.252 --> 01:49:17.173
Portmaster Pro is a bit more than I

01:49:17.793 --> 01:49:18.434
thought it was.

01:49:19.113 --> 01:49:21.755
It's already eight euros a month to pay

01:49:21.774 --> 01:49:22.654
for independently.

01:49:22.715 --> 01:49:24.135
So IVPN's pricing,

01:49:24.175 --> 01:49:26.036
if you want Portmaster Pro...

01:49:27.445 --> 01:49:29.487
which includes access to SPN,

01:49:29.506 --> 01:49:32.448
which is like, I mean,

01:49:32.770 --> 01:49:36.572
it's a VPN service that Safing offers.

01:49:37.733 --> 01:49:39.913
Safing being owned by IVPN now, obviously,

01:49:41.435 --> 01:49:43.716
with some additional benefits beyond a

01:49:43.756 --> 01:49:44.337
VPN.

01:49:44.377 --> 01:49:47.139
So if that is something you want access

01:49:47.179 --> 01:49:47.418
to,

01:49:47.559 --> 01:49:49.060
and then you also want any of these

01:49:49.100 --> 01:49:50.140
other IVPN features,

01:49:50.541 --> 01:49:52.442
the plan change actually seems like a

01:49:52.462 --> 01:49:53.842
great deal because I don't think any of

01:49:53.863 --> 01:49:54.564
them, I mean,

01:49:54.583 --> 01:49:55.744
none of the plans came with

01:49:56.889 --> 01:50:00.231
port master before for sure so it is

01:50:00.252 --> 01:50:02.993
kind of a step towards something like

01:50:03.054 --> 01:50:04.916
proton unlimited for example that gives

01:50:04.935 --> 01:50:07.278
you access to all of these things um

01:50:07.398 --> 01:50:10.480
but on the other hand what I dislike

01:50:10.520 --> 01:50:13.422
about some of these services is that uh

01:50:13.542 --> 01:50:17.365
my DNS malex you can't pay for separately

01:50:17.407 --> 01:50:18.768
which I think is kind of unfortunate

01:50:18.787 --> 01:50:21.369
because like even with simple login right

01:50:21.409 --> 01:50:22.490
now if you don't want

01:50:22.949 --> 01:50:27.970
a Proton subscription or you use Proton

01:50:27.990 --> 01:50:30.291
but you don't need all the additional

01:50:30.310 --> 01:50:31.832
features of Unlimited and you just want

01:50:31.851 --> 01:50:32.452
simple login,

01:50:32.731 --> 01:50:34.391
you can still buy those products

01:50:34.492 --> 01:50:35.271
independently.

01:50:35.551 --> 01:50:37.313
And typically, if you use all of them,

01:50:37.372 --> 01:50:38.972
bundling ends up being a lot cheaper,

01:50:39.012 --> 01:50:41.094
but I would love to see some tier

01:50:41.134 --> 01:50:43.734
of MailX that you could use independently

01:50:43.774 --> 01:50:45.533
of all the IVPN stuff,

01:50:45.594 --> 01:50:47.234
especially because you don't get it on the

01:50:47.335 --> 01:50:47.875
IVPN

01:50:48.675 --> 01:50:51.596
base plan so that does make it fairly

01:50:51.716 --> 01:50:54.720
expensive for people as opposed to simple

01:50:54.760 --> 01:50:57.921
login which is thirty six dollars a year

01:50:58.443 --> 01:51:00.604
um just for access to simple login but

01:51:00.663 --> 01:51:02.666
that probably continues to make more sense

01:51:02.685 --> 01:51:05.368
than paying eighty dollars to IVPN if

01:51:05.408 --> 01:51:09.551
that's the only service you need um so

01:51:09.612 --> 01:51:11.292
it'd be nice if that was independent but

01:51:12.966 --> 01:51:13.988
Beyond that,

01:51:14.087 --> 01:51:16.210
the bundles do seem like a good value

01:51:16.250 --> 01:51:17.331
for people who are using it.

01:51:17.371 --> 01:51:18.570
And especially, I mean,

01:51:18.591 --> 01:51:21.134
if you're using IVPN standard already and

01:51:21.154 --> 01:51:22.875
you're using something like SimpleLogin

01:51:22.895 --> 01:51:23.956
for thirty six dollars,

01:51:24.815 --> 01:51:26.797
you basically get a new ALUsing service

01:51:26.837 --> 01:51:30.020
for only a twenty dollar difference for a

01:51:30.060 --> 01:51:31.862
year plan instead of the thirty six.

01:51:31.902 --> 01:51:35.425
So, yeah, bundling it could make sense.

01:51:36.605 --> 01:51:38.006
I see a lot of different opinions about

01:51:38.067 --> 01:51:39.328
bundling stuff in general,

01:51:39.347 --> 01:51:40.009
like on the form.

01:51:43.194 --> 01:51:44.496
I don't know if my camera just

01:51:44.536 --> 01:51:44.957
disconnected.

01:51:44.976 --> 01:51:45.396
That's weird.

01:51:47.220 --> 01:51:47.500
Yeah.

01:51:47.701 --> 01:51:48.921
Did your camera overheat?

01:51:48.962 --> 01:51:53.028
We still hear you though.

01:51:53.108 --> 01:51:53.389
I don't know.

01:51:53.408 --> 01:51:54.090
I'll figure this out.

01:51:54.250 --> 01:51:56.453
You can go back to talking more stuff.

01:51:57.204 --> 01:51:58.404
Yeah, no,

01:51:58.505 --> 01:51:59.626
I was gonna say I know what you

01:51:59.645 --> 01:51:59.845
mean.

01:51:59.886 --> 01:52:01.326
Like bundling is it I mean,

01:52:01.365 --> 01:52:02.386
you really hit the nail on the head.

01:52:02.426 --> 01:52:03.185
Like on the one hand,

01:52:03.225 --> 01:52:05.947
it's it's cool to have a whole bundle

01:52:05.987 --> 01:52:08.006
like proton unlimited or like this ibpn

01:52:08.027 --> 01:52:09.448
plus or pro suite.

01:52:09.568 --> 01:52:10.667
And it's really cool.

01:52:11.068 --> 01:52:12.148
But only if you're actually going to use

01:52:12.188 --> 01:52:12.707
all those things.

01:52:12.728 --> 01:52:13.389
If you're just like, No,

01:52:13.469 --> 01:52:15.029
I just want male x for whatever reason,

01:52:15.048 --> 01:52:16.668
or I want my DNS for whatever reason,

01:52:16.729 --> 01:52:16.809
it,

01:52:17.368 --> 01:52:19.550
it probably doesn't make sense to pay at

01:52:19.569 --> 01:52:20.130
dollars a year.

01:52:20.708 --> 01:52:24.493
Um, but yeah, it's, uh,

01:52:24.554 --> 01:52:25.815
it would be nice to see them offer

01:52:25.836 --> 01:52:26.936
that more modular thing.

01:52:26.997 --> 01:52:29.740
I think my concern is, um, uh,

01:52:31.332 --> 01:52:31.471
I,

01:52:31.953 --> 01:52:33.914
my only reservation is I worry about

01:52:34.015 --> 01:52:36.136
companies trying to do everything at once.

01:52:36.157 --> 01:52:37.318
Like one thing I really admire about

01:52:37.377 --> 01:52:38.819
Mulvad is they're basically, I mean,

01:52:38.838 --> 01:52:39.880
they do have Mulvad browser,

01:52:40.199 --> 01:52:40.881
but for the most part,

01:52:40.980 --> 01:52:42.802
they only do a VPN and that's all

01:52:42.823 --> 01:52:43.162
they do.

01:52:43.262 --> 01:52:44.404
And they don't really seem interested in

01:52:44.444 --> 01:52:45.225
doing anything else.

01:52:45.725 --> 01:52:46.246
And that's great.

01:52:46.685 --> 01:52:46.865
I mean,

01:52:46.886 --> 01:52:48.368
they do have like some public DNS servers

01:52:48.387 --> 01:52:49.448
you can use, but it's not like this,

01:52:49.488 --> 01:52:50.069
you know, this...

01:52:51.029 --> 01:52:53.212
my DNS standalone DNS service with block

01:52:53.231 --> 01:52:55.154
list combinations and configurable rules.

01:52:55.173 --> 01:52:56.315
Like more of that is just like,

01:52:56.336 --> 01:52:57.015
here's our DNS.

01:52:57.076 --> 01:52:57.936
You can use it if you want,

01:52:58.096 --> 01:52:59.298
or you can not, we don't care,

01:52:59.418 --> 01:53:00.119
but there it is.

01:53:00.819 --> 01:53:01.161
And I,

01:53:01.301 --> 01:53:02.641
I really respect that kind of like

01:53:02.962 --> 01:53:03.722
specialization.

01:53:03.762 --> 01:53:05.064
Whereas you look at things like proton

01:53:05.505 --> 01:53:07.967
that rightfully so get a lot of, um,

01:53:09.420 --> 01:53:10.780
a lot of criticism for the fact that

01:53:10.801 --> 01:53:11.720
it's like, yeah, that's cool.

01:53:11.740 --> 01:53:12.962
You have five hundred tools,

01:53:13.061 --> 01:53:15.363
but like they don't work for crap on

01:53:15.403 --> 01:53:15.643
Linux.

01:53:15.682 --> 01:53:17.304
Ninety percent of the time, you know,

01:53:17.363 --> 01:53:19.265
the the feature parity across operating

01:53:19.305 --> 01:53:20.604
systems is just trash.

01:53:20.824 --> 01:53:21.685
Like, you know,

01:53:21.746 --> 01:53:23.006
there's there's features that people have

01:53:23.025 --> 01:53:24.907
been asking for since I got into privacy

01:53:25.226 --> 01:53:26.728
ten years ago that you still haven't

01:53:26.768 --> 01:53:27.268
rolled out.

01:53:27.868 --> 01:53:29.269
And so I just I worry.

01:53:30.029 --> 01:53:31.569
I hope that they they aren't going to

01:53:31.590 --> 01:53:32.751
bite off more than they can chew is

01:53:32.791 --> 01:53:33.451
what I'm getting at.

01:53:33.551 --> 01:53:34.752
So it is really cool to see them

01:53:34.811 --> 01:53:36.512
add more and especially like

01:53:37.332 --> 01:53:38.453
as much as I love IVP and I

01:53:38.474 --> 01:53:38.994
gotta be honest,

01:53:39.015 --> 01:53:41.578
like I think between Mulvan and proton,

01:53:42.018 --> 01:53:43.539
I have kind of been struggling to figure

01:53:43.579 --> 01:53:44.381
out like what their,

01:53:44.581 --> 01:53:46.143
their niches and what their selling point.

01:53:46.182 --> 01:53:46.984
Like, again,

01:53:47.083 --> 01:53:48.286
I think they have really good security and

01:53:48.326 --> 01:53:49.146
I don't think they're bad.

01:53:49.247 --> 01:53:49.367
Like,

01:53:49.386 --> 01:53:50.488
I don't think we shouldn't list them or

01:53:50.528 --> 01:53:50.889
anything.

01:53:51.548 --> 01:53:51.890
And there's,

01:53:53.324 --> 01:53:54.587
there's a couple of neat features they

01:53:54.606 --> 01:53:54.747
have.

01:53:54.766 --> 01:53:55.948
Like they have this feature on,

01:53:56.009 --> 01:53:58.011
I think it's Android only where you can

01:53:58.051 --> 01:53:58.993
set up a trusted network.

01:53:59.014 --> 01:54:00.376
So like, let's say your home network,

01:54:00.416 --> 01:54:02.099
you have a VPN on the router, right?

01:54:02.800 --> 01:54:04.141
You can tell your,

01:54:04.301 --> 01:54:05.925
your IVPN app that like, Hey,

01:54:06.225 --> 01:54:08.389
when you connect to this wifi turn off,

01:54:08.708 --> 01:54:09.850
Because there's no point in having two

01:54:09.890 --> 01:54:10.390
VPNs.

01:54:10.789 --> 01:54:12.051
I mean, I know some people want that,

01:54:12.091 --> 01:54:13.431
but for the average person, it's like,

01:54:13.471 --> 01:54:14.853
I don't need that kind of speed slowdown.

01:54:15.394 --> 01:54:17.215
But then when you disconnect from that

01:54:17.255 --> 01:54:18.676
network, turn back on.

01:54:19.256 --> 01:54:20.296
And so it automatically,

01:54:20.317 --> 01:54:21.837
like you never have to manage your VPN.

01:54:21.858 --> 01:54:22.618
And I think that's a really,

01:54:22.658 --> 01:54:23.458
really cool feature.

01:54:24.118 --> 01:54:24.520
But, um,

01:54:25.737 --> 01:54:26.737
But yeah,

01:54:26.817 --> 01:54:28.118
other than like little things like that,

01:54:28.158 --> 01:54:29.177
I'm like, yeah, what are they really?

01:54:29.618 --> 01:54:30.798
Because like Mulvad's thing is like

01:54:30.838 --> 01:54:31.779
hardcore privacy,

01:54:31.859 --> 01:54:33.619
hardcore anonymity and Proton's obviously

01:54:33.659 --> 01:54:35.000
got the suite and they promised they work

01:54:35.020 --> 01:54:36.399
with streaming services and stuff like

01:54:36.420 --> 01:54:36.640
that.

01:54:36.680 --> 01:54:38.320
So I guess what I'm getting at is

01:54:38.480 --> 01:54:39.480
it is nice to kind of see them

01:54:39.520 --> 01:54:41.002
starting to like carve out a niche again

01:54:41.021 --> 01:54:42.601
and start to have like these competitive

01:54:42.622 --> 01:54:43.243
features again.

01:54:43.283 --> 01:54:46.123
And I think that's really cool.

01:54:46.663 --> 01:54:47.684
And yeah, I saw that comment too.

01:54:47.743 --> 01:54:48.863
Damn, almost two hours stream.

01:54:48.923 --> 01:54:49.984
Yeah, this is normal, man.

01:54:50.005 --> 01:54:50.465
Where you been?

01:54:51.974 --> 01:54:52.014
No,

01:54:52.033 --> 01:54:53.314
what was crazy was the other week we

01:54:53.335 --> 01:54:54.355
went for like three and a half or

01:54:54.395 --> 01:54:55.136
four hours.

01:54:55.235 --> 01:54:55.917
That was wild.

01:54:56.917 --> 01:54:58.797
We got a lot of stuff to talk

01:54:58.837 --> 01:54:59.719
about every week.

01:54:59.738 --> 01:55:00.418
Exactly.

01:55:00.819 --> 01:55:01.520
Got a lot to say, man.

01:55:01.619 --> 01:55:03.520
And then, yeah,

01:55:03.541 --> 01:55:05.382
somebody else said ProtonDrive for Linux.

01:55:05.643 --> 01:55:06.422
Yeah.

01:55:06.462 --> 01:55:07.064
Yeah, exactly.

01:55:07.503 --> 01:55:07.944
I wish.

01:55:08.625 --> 01:55:10.485
Is ProtonDrive supported by Rclone yet?

01:55:10.565 --> 01:55:12.466
I feel like I saw something about that.

01:55:12.646 --> 01:55:13.488
Oh, I don't know.

01:55:13.528 --> 01:55:15.009
That's above my skill level.

01:55:16.409 --> 01:55:17.090
Oh, yeah, it is.

01:55:17.751 --> 01:55:18.011
Yeah.

01:55:19.869 --> 01:55:20.909
So technically,

01:55:20.951 --> 01:55:22.711
there is a way to use it.

01:55:23.211 --> 01:55:24.492
But yeah,

01:55:24.532 --> 01:55:27.273
Proton Drive sadly doesn't have an

01:55:27.292 --> 01:55:28.293
official API,

01:55:28.354 --> 01:55:32.354
so they kind of just did the best

01:55:32.395 --> 01:55:32.735
they can.

01:55:32.756 --> 01:55:34.536
But Proton can kind of change it any

01:55:34.615 --> 01:55:34.956
time.

01:55:37.876 --> 01:55:39.238
I vaguely remember that now.

01:55:40.279 --> 01:55:41.340
Which is interesting.

01:55:43.061 --> 01:55:44.764
Their website says that they believe it

01:55:44.783 --> 01:55:45.104
works.

01:55:45.185 --> 01:55:46.206
I don't know what has...

01:55:47.046 --> 01:55:47.847
Maybe something has changed.

01:55:47.868 --> 01:55:48.229
Like I said,

01:55:48.269 --> 01:55:49.831
Proton can kind of change all of that

01:55:50.030 --> 01:55:50.832
at any time, so...

01:55:51.828 --> 01:55:52.649
Not a great solution.

01:55:52.789 --> 01:55:55.631
I would definitely rather Proton Drive

01:55:55.671 --> 01:55:57.953
just release a Linux client,

01:55:58.094 --> 01:56:01.296
but Linux support doesn't seem to be a

01:56:01.356 --> 01:56:04.300
huge priority for Proton in general across

01:56:04.340 --> 01:56:04.939
any other stuff.

01:56:04.979 --> 01:56:09.064
I think that's one of the many problems

01:56:09.083 --> 01:56:09.765
I have with Proton.

01:56:10.364 --> 01:56:12.367
But what can you do?

01:56:13.627 --> 01:56:15.048
I agree.

01:56:15.069 --> 01:56:16.869
Just about IVPN really quick.

01:56:18.131 --> 01:56:19.511
I was trying to look through their site

01:56:19.551 --> 01:56:21.113
and find out more about these plans.

01:56:21.953 --> 01:56:24.836
And if anyone from IVPN watches this,

01:56:25.695 --> 01:56:28.618
I literally signed up and then tried to

01:56:28.679 --> 01:56:31.400
change my plan one time and it says

01:56:31.461 --> 01:56:32.301
too many requests.

01:56:32.520 --> 01:56:33.202
Try again later.

01:56:33.242 --> 01:56:34.563
So I don't know what's going on with

01:56:34.582 --> 01:56:35.023
your site,

01:56:35.564 --> 01:56:38.065
but the rate limiting might need a bit

01:56:38.086 --> 01:56:38.386
of work.

01:56:40.588 --> 01:56:41.829
rate limiting plans.

01:56:41.890 --> 01:56:42.529
I've never heard of that.

01:56:42.569 --> 01:56:43.110
That's interesting.

01:56:43.810 --> 01:56:45.192
Yeah, I don't know what's going on there.

01:56:47.012 --> 01:56:50.154
But yeah, overall, I think it's cool.

01:56:50.175 --> 01:56:51.114
Definitely some concerns.

01:56:51.274 --> 01:56:55.318
But yeah.

01:56:55.377 --> 01:56:56.618
I think that's all I got for forums.

01:56:56.637 --> 01:56:57.399
You ready to move on to the q&a?

01:56:58.993 --> 01:56:59.253
Yeah,

01:57:00.435 --> 01:57:01.994
we'll have to look through the chat here,

01:57:02.996 --> 01:57:04.537
see if we miss anything.

01:57:04.957 --> 01:57:06.658
I saw on the forum thread,

01:57:07.698 --> 01:57:11.319
we basically just got one question in

01:57:11.359 --> 01:57:12.319
advance this week.

01:57:13.421 --> 01:57:14.860
Expert-FortyEightSeventy asked,

01:57:15.400 --> 01:57:17.481
if we could add XMR chat as an

01:57:17.542 --> 01:57:18.823
option for stream donations?

01:57:21.524 --> 01:57:22.864
And the answer is yes,

01:57:22.965 --> 01:57:23.765
I would love to do that,

01:57:23.905 --> 01:57:25.346
but I keep forgetting to do that.

01:57:25.667 --> 01:57:26.368
But also,

01:57:27.368 --> 01:57:30.250
I'm not sure if we can show Super

01:57:30.289 --> 01:57:32.771
Chats on the screen with an XMR chat

01:57:32.832 --> 01:57:34.512
in the way that you've seen it on

01:57:34.573 --> 01:57:35.212
other streams.

01:57:35.713 --> 01:57:38.354
Just because we're not using OBS,

01:57:38.475 --> 01:57:39.136
unfortunately,

01:57:39.176 --> 01:57:40.436
so I don't think we can show those

01:57:41.157 --> 01:57:45.460
banners in StreamYard here.

01:57:45.880 --> 01:57:47.921
But we could definitely do it, and...

01:57:48.659 --> 01:57:51.082
I don't know, manually type it.

01:57:51.101 --> 01:57:53.323
We currently type the banners like the one

01:57:53.345 --> 01:57:55.225
you see on the screen right now.

01:57:55.686 --> 01:57:58.729
So yeah,

01:57:58.789 --> 01:57:59.951
if I remember to set that up,

01:57:59.970 --> 01:58:04.055
we can definitely test it out.

01:58:04.154 --> 01:58:06.077
Hold on.

01:58:09.702 --> 01:58:10.662
So it, uh,

01:58:10.682 --> 01:58:12.443
I don't know if it will relay chats,

01:58:12.523 --> 01:58:14.043
but if you go to their front page,

01:58:14.083 --> 01:58:15.444
it says how to use XMR chat.

01:58:15.505 --> 01:58:17.065
It does have instructions for stream yard.

01:58:17.126 --> 01:58:18.065
It looks like it has to go through

01:58:18.126 --> 01:58:21.448
Twitch though.

01:58:21.568 --> 01:58:22.728
Interesting.

01:58:22.868 --> 01:58:22.988
Oh,

01:58:23.048 --> 01:58:26.310
cause it'll cause it'll send the message

01:58:26.350 --> 01:58:27.730
in the Twitch chat and then we could

01:58:27.770 --> 01:58:29.652
do it like all the other comments we've

01:58:29.671 --> 01:58:30.072
been doing.

01:58:30.231 --> 01:58:32.172
So I guess, I guess we could potentially.

01:58:32.752 --> 01:58:33.033
Yeah.

01:58:33.132 --> 01:58:33.314
I mean,

01:58:33.354 --> 01:58:34.354
we'd have to look into that more.

01:58:34.434 --> 01:58:35.675
I don't know if that's exactly what they

01:58:35.715 --> 01:58:36.755
mean, but yeah,

01:58:36.814 --> 01:58:38.235
that could potentially be an option.

01:58:44.795 --> 01:58:45.015
Yeah.

01:58:45.395 --> 01:58:46.936
All right,

01:58:46.957 --> 01:58:48.358
let's see if I got any other questions

01:58:48.398 --> 01:58:52.400
here.

01:58:52.421 --> 01:58:52.720
Cool.

01:58:53.622 --> 01:58:53.761
Yeah,

01:58:53.801 --> 01:58:56.264
that's all we had in the forum this

01:58:56.304 --> 01:58:56.583
week.

01:58:56.623 --> 01:58:59.006
And I think we've been trying to answer

01:58:59.046 --> 01:59:00.266
questions as we go,

01:59:00.367 --> 01:59:01.847
so hopefully there's not too many.

01:59:10.065 --> 01:59:11.766
So I'm looking through some of the names

01:59:11.806 --> 01:59:13.787
here on some of the other creators on

01:59:13.887 --> 01:59:14.427
XMR chat.

01:59:14.807 --> 01:59:18.390
Not a FBI honeypot.

01:59:18.409 --> 01:59:18.869
That's a good one.

01:59:21.051 --> 01:59:21.930
Thanks for letting us know.

01:59:24.572 --> 01:59:29.994
Cool.

01:59:30.034 --> 01:59:31.475
Let's see here.

01:59:31.774 --> 01:59:32.555
I could get lost in that.

01:59:32.716 --> 01:59:33.515
I do that sometimes.

01:59:33.576 --> 01:59:35.296
I just scroll through pages and pages of

01:59:35.676 --> 01:59:36.577
usernames and stuff.

01:59:36.617 --> 01:59:37.757
I like seeing what other people come up

01:59:37.778 --> 01:59:37.858
with.

01:59:39.036 --> 01:59:39.556
It's very fun.

01:59:40.578 --> 01:59:43.541
I feel like I have heard of an

01:59:43.680 --> 01:59:44.481
FBI honeypot.

01:59:44.561 --> 01:59:46.743
I think they subscribe to our channel.

01:59:46.783 --> 01:59:47.886
I think I've seen a lot of comments

01:59:47.926 --> 01:59:49.967
from them on our videos, actually.

01:59:49.988 --> 01:59:51.529
So that's interesting that you put that

01:59:51.550 --> 01:59:51.609
out.

01:59:51.689 --> 01:59:53.351
Oh, then hi if you're watching.

01:59:53.532 --> 01:59:54.313
I like your username.

01:59:54.353 --> 01:59:54.792
It was funny.

01:59:56.435 --> 01:59:56.534
Here,

01:59:56.555 --> 01:59:57.815
we just got a question from Cannabidder.

01:59:57.896 --> 01:59:59.497
Any thoughts on Session shutting down?

02:00:01.502 --> 02:00:01.802
Um, I mean,

02:00:01.943 --> 02:00:02.802
I have thoughts on that one.

02:00:02.983 --> 02:00:04.163
I'm, I'm really sad about it.

02:00:04.404 --> 02:00:05.765
I've, uh,

02:00:05.784 --> 02:00:07.105
I think he was actually one of the

02:00:07.126 --> 02:00:09.266
first people I interviewed, um,

02:00:09.287 --> 02:00:10.787
back when surveillance sport used to do

02:00:10.847 --> 02:00:12.287
more interviews on the channel.

02:00:12.588 --> 02:00:14.630
And, um, I don't know.

02:00:14.770 --> 02:00:15.050
I, uh,

02:00:16.795 --> 02:00:17.375
Maybe he was first.

02:00:17.435 --> 02:00:18.416
I can't remember if he was first or

02:00:18.456 --> 02:00:20.737
John Todd was first, but I don't know.

02:00:21.317 --> 02:00:24.458
He's always been a really accessible and a

02:00:24.498 --> 02:00:26.199
really cool guy, and I'm disappointed.

02:00:26.699 --> 02:00:28.280
I'm disappointed for a lot of reasons.

02:00:28.381 --> 02:00:30.462
I'm disappointed because I think even

02:00:30.481 --> 02:00:32.922
though Session was never an official

02:00:32.962 --> 02:00:34.363
recommendation from Privacy Guides,

02:00:34.384 --> 02:00:35.444
or at least hasn't been for a long

02:00:35.484 --> 02:00:35.685
time,

02:00:40.161 --> 02:00:42.363
But I think it still served a useful

02:00:42.463 --> 02:00:45.567
space for people who didn't want a phone

02:00:45.587 --> 02:00:45.847
number,

02:00:45.887 --> 02:00:48.090
for people who wanted the

02:00:48.109 --> 02:00:48.890
decentralization.

02:00:49.190 --> 02:00:49.731
And you have to remember,

02:00:49.752 --> 02:00:50.773
this was before SimpleX.

02:00:50.953 --> 02:00:52.715
So now SimpleX kind of fills that niche.

02:00:53.496 --> 02:00:54.476
from a security standpoint,

02:00:54.497 --> 02:00:55.197
a little bit better.

02:00:55.317 --> 02:00:56.938
But, you know,

02:00:57.018 --> 02:00:58.338
I think that at the time they served

02:00:58.359 --> 02:00:59.260
a really valuable niche.

02:01:00.060 --> 02:01:01.480
I'm also just really disappointed because

02:01:01.520 --> 02:01:03.462
I know they like just moved their entire

02:01:03.502 --> 02:01:05.243
community to Switzerland as a response to

02:01:05.264 --> 02:01:06.765
some like pressure from Australian law

02:01:06.784 --> 02:01:07.305
enforcement.

02:01:08.126 --> 02:01:10.067
And I don't know,

02:01:10.106 --> 02:01:11.667
I like and they just announced they were

02:01:11.688 --> 02:01:13.609
trying to roll out a perfect forward

02:01:13.649 --> 02:01:14.050
secrecy,

02:01:14.090 --> 02:01:14.789
which I think would have

02:01:16.997 --> 02:01:17.158
I mean,

02:01:17.198 --> 02:01:19.038
I don't want to speak for anybody here,

02:01:19.118 --> 02:01:20.140
like speculate too much,

02:01:20.159 --> 02:01:21.621
but I think could have potentially put

02:01:21.640 --> 02:01:23.502
them back on privacy guides.

02:01:23.542 --> 02:01:25.162
Like we talked about that as a headline

02:01:25.182 --> 02:01:25.462
story.

02:01:25.483 --> 02:01:26.583
That was actually one of the first

02:01:26.623 --> 02:01:28.364
podcasts I did with you guys.

02:01:28.385 --> 02:01:29.185
So I don't know.

02:01:30.525 --> 02:01:30.865
I think it,

02:01:32.386 --> 02:01:33.547
I know every day that goes by,

02:01:33.587 --> 02:01:34.507
it's less and less likely,

02:01:34.547 --> 02:01:36.389
but I really hope something good will come

02:01:36.429 --> 02:01:37.869
out of it because I do think they're

02:01:38.371 --> 02:01:39.711
really showing a lot of potential.

02:01:39.911 --> 02:01:43.432
And I do think they potentially serve a

02:01:43.533 --> 02:01:44.154
useful niche.

02:01:44.373 --> 02:01:45.734
And I don't know.

02:01:47.193 --> 02:01:48.073
I hope they don't shut down,

02:01:48.113 --> 02:01:49.237
but I know it's getting increasingly

02:01:49.277 --> 02:01:51.000
likely as the days go on.

02:01:51.661 --> 02:01:52.323
Those are my thoughts.

02:01:53.126 --> 02:01:57.208
yeah i think to me it seems definitely

02:01:57.248 --> 02:01:59.390
pretty unlikely that they would reach

02:01:59.591 --> 02:02:01.712
their goal funding unfortunately it just

02:02:01.733 --> 02:02:04.135
goes to show i think how expensive running

02:02:04.194 --> 02:02:08.998
a proper messaging service is um you know

02:02:09.038 --> 02:02:11.341
people always say something like signal

02:02:11.381 --> 02:02:14.023
for example is massively overfunded and

02:02:14.063 --> 02:02:15.704
like what could they possibly be using all

02:02:15.725 --> 02:02:17.586
of this money for but um

02:02:18.747 --> 02:02:21.149
in most cases, like, I mean,

02:02:21.189 --> 02:02:23.289
this kind of thing barely breaks even at

02:02:23.350 --> 02:02:25.891
best in the best case scenarios, usually.

02:02:26.471 --> 02:02:29.694
A couple problems with it is just how

02:02:30.015 --> 02:02:31.756
expensive it is to run reliable stuff,

02:02:31.796 --> 02:02:35.559
but also having, like,

02:02:36.099 --> 02:02:38.881
Mozilla also has this problem where they

02:02:38.980 --> 02:02:39.801
say, you know,

02:02:39.822 --> 02:02:42.382
you have to pay a lot of money

02:02:43.423 --> 02:02:44.104
to get, like,

02:02:45.305 --> 02:02:47.025
really good developers behind this stuff

02:02:47.087 --> 02:02:47.546
because

02:02:50.739 --> 02:02:52.721
the opportunity cost to work at a place

02:02:52.742 --> 02:02:54.943
that pays you much less is just so

02:02:54.962 --> 02:02:57.284
high because very good software developers

02:02:57.345 --> 02:03:01.427
can command huge salaries like one hundred

02:03:01.467 --> 02:03:07.032
fifty two hundred thousand or more and you

02:03:07.072 --> 02:03:08.613
have to you basically have to pay that

02:03:08.653 --> 02:03:10.134
to be competitive even if you don't have

02:03:10.173 --> 02:03:14.957
enough money I think yeah you have the

02:03:15.056 --> 02:03:15.957
FAQ up I don't know

02:03:17.345 --> 02:03:18.805
I don't know what my camera is doing.

02:03:22.387 --> 02:03:24.608
This computer is not my favorite so far.

02:03:24.807 --> 02:03:26.269
It continues to have problems.

02:03:27.349 --> 02:03:31.230
Anyways, yeah, looking at that FAQ,

02:03:31.871 --> 02:03:32.230
like I said,

02:03:32.251 --> 02:03:35.112
I don't think it's likely that they will

02:03:35.152 --> 02:03:36.292
get it, unfortunately.

02:03:38.092 --> 02:03:39.153
And they even say,

02:03:39.632 --> 02:03:40.734
compared to their competitors,

02:03:40.774 --> 02:03:42.994
they operate extremely efficiently,

02:03:43.135 --> 02:03:43.574
but I mean...

02:03:44.568 --> 02:03:46.369
That's just more proof that it's just

02:03:46.409 --> 02:03:49.113
really hard to do something like this.

02:03:49.453 --> 02:03:50.595
And I think that a lot of their

02:03:50.654 --> 02:03:53.838
excuses or a lot of their reasoning for

02:03:53.859 --> 02:03:55.942
why these are problems are more more

02:03:55.981 --> 02:03:58.043
believable than than Mozilla's.

02:03:58.284 --> 02:04:00.087
I know Mozilla used that justification to

02:04:00.127 --> 02:04:02.449
like pay their CEO like

02:04:03.503 --> 02:04:05.706
millions of dollars wastefully because

02:04:05.805 --> 02:04:09.127
they also were running mozilla into the

02:04:09.148 --> 02:04:11.649
ground with insane decisions so it

02:04:11.670 --> 02:04:13.070
definitely wasn't worth it in that case

02:04:13.131 --> 02:04:16.372
but um yeah in this case like the

02:04:16.393 --> 02:04:19.354
people who were developing session um just

02:04:19.395 --> 02:04:20.855
need more money than they were taking in

02:04:20.876 --> 02:04:23.457
and there's not too much you can do

02:04:23.497 --> 02:04:26.079
about that i think it was hard um

02:04:26.100 --> 02:04:27.640
because i think a lot of people

02:04:29.899 --> 02:04:32.159
I didn't like Session as much when they

02:04:32.921 --> 02:04:34.780
switched away from the signal protocol.

02:04:34.841 --> 02:04:37.541
I think that made it more difficult for

02:04:37.581 --> 02:04:38.341
people to trust them,

02:04:38.402 --> 02:04:40.662
especially because Session was relatively

02:04:40.761 --> 02:04:44.622
new and rolling your own protocol is

02:04:45.943 --> 02:04:47.622
usually not a great idea,

02:04:49.162 --> 02:04:51.344
especially if you can't trust them

02:04:51.384 --> 02:04:53.083
necessarily to do it properly because you

02:04:53.123 --> 02:04:54.844
don't know what their experience is.

02:04:55.344 --> 02:04:56.664
So I think that was an issue with

02:04:56.725 --> 02:04:57.085
Session.

02:04:59.305 --> 02:05:00.845
And then the lack of certain security

02:05:00.865 --> 02:05:02.787
features, like perfect forward secrecy,

02:05:02.827 --> 02:05:06.628
I think was a challenge for people as

02:05:06.789 --> 02:05:07.130
well.

02:05:10.351 --> 02:05:12.693
Kerry said he's bummed because it's

02:05:12.712 --> 02:05:14.154
fundamentally different than Signal.

02:05:15.414 --> 02:05:15.935
I agree.

02:05:17.136 --> 02:05:20.577
Session was a weird app because it is

02:05:20.717 --> 02:05:21.457
decentralized,

02:05:21.497 --> 02:05:23.498
but it's not as decentralized as something

02:05:23.599 --> 02:05:25.180
like SimpleX,

02:05:25.300 --> 02:05:27.461
which is a decentralization model that

02:05:27.520 --> 02:05:27.862
makes...

02:05:28.788 --> 02:05:30.309
a lot more sense to me in my

02:05:30.349 --> 02:05:32.149
head if I think about like how it

02:05:32.189 --> 02:05:32.770
should work.

02:05:33.989 --> 02:05:36.770
Sessions was strange and I don't know if

02:05:36.869 --> 02:05:38.350
it still is.

02:05:38.430 --> 02:05:40.411
I haven't looked into session in the last

02:05:40.591 --> 02:05:41.171
year or so,

02:05:41.211 --> 02:05:43.971
but I know for a very long time

02:05:43.992 --> 02:05:45.131
and this may still be the case,

02:05:45.351 --> 02:05:47.252
you needed to be in their cryptocurrency

02:05:47.311 --> 02:05:48.813
ecosystem and you needed to have like a

02:05:48.872 --> 02:05:51.632
significant holding of of their token in

02:05:51.712 --> 02:05:53.273
order to run a node at all.

02:05:53.613 --> 02:05:55.554
So it wasn't decentralized in

02:05:56.634 --> 02:05:58.716
The same way that SimpleX or the same

02:05:58.735 --> 02:06:01.177
way that the Tor network are,

02:06:01.259 --> 02:06:03.100
where it can be totally volunteer-run,

02:06:03.380 --> 02:06:06.462
there would be really no way for someone

02:06:06.483 --> 02:06:07.423
like me, for example,

02:06:07.463 --> 02:06:10.266
to contribute to the network in any

02:06:10.386 --> 02:06:11.067
meaningful way,

02:06:11.087 --> 02:06:14.489
which I think hinders the decentralization

02:06:14.690 --> 02:06:15.511
aspect a bit.

02:06:17.092 --> 02:06:18.474
I've always said and I would continue to

02:06:18.514 --> 02:06:20.956
say the obvious replacement for Session

02:06:21.076 --> 02:06:23.016
for most people is probably SimpleX,

02:06:23.056 --> 02:06:25.078
but I know that gets in hot water

02:06:25.139 --> 02:06:27.621
lately because they've taken on VC

02:06:27.661 --> 02:06:28.140
funding,

02:06:29.502 --> 02:06:30.944
which is not a great trend that we've

02:06:30.984 --> 02:06:34.225
seen SimpleX and Bitwarden and other open

02:06:34.265 --> 02:06:36.027
source companies begin to go in lately.

02:06:36.087 --> 02:06:40.831
So a lot of problems with all of

02:06:40.850 --> 02:06:41.431
these apps,

02:06:41.832 --> 02:06:44.134
a lot of upsides and downsides.

02:06:46.769 --> 02:06:47.909
Sick Scorpio just asked,

02:06:47.930 --> 02:06:48.690
speaking of Mozilla,

02:06:48.730 --> 02:06:50.212
are we interested in covering Thundermail

02:06:50.233 --> 02:06:50.493
Pro?

02:06:50.813 --> 02:06:52.555
I believe at least some of our team

02:06:52.574 --> 02:06:54.856
members did get access to the beta and

02:06:54.898 --> 02:06:56.719
we are hoping to do something on it.

02:06:56.798 --> 02:06:57.399
Absolutely.

02:06:58.381 --> 02:07:00.523
Seems like an interesting service,

02:07:01.024 --> 02:07:03.105
but don't know too much about it yet.

02:07:04.467 --> 02:07:04.587
Yeah,

02:07:04.608 --> 02:07:06.029
I think that conversation just came up

02:07:06.069 --> 02:07:06.389
today.

02:07:06.509 --> 02:07:08.329
So it's a conversation we need to have.

02:07:08.470 --> 02:07:09.130
I would love to.

02:07:09.631 --> 02:07:10.591
It's not me, by the way.

02:07:11.390 --> 02:07:12.131
But yeah,

02:07:12.311 --> 02:07:14.412
I would love to cover it for sure

02:07:14.672 --> 02:07:18.295
and see if, I don't know,

02:07:18.994 --> 02:07:20.615
maybe that person can answer my questions

02:07:20.636 --> 02:07:21.895
sufficiently to the point where,

02:07:21.976 --> 02:07:23.056
or maybe they want to host the video.

02:07:23.117 --> 02:07:23.457
I don't know.

02:07:23.697 --> 02:07:26.179
But we'll have that conversation for sure.

02:07:26.319 --> 02:07:26.979
I'd be down to do it.

02:07:28.447 --> 02:07:31.668
Carrie just said that's the staking unit.

02:07:31.748 --> 02:07:33.090
And yeah, I'm looking at the website now.

02:07:33.130 --> 02:07:35.452
There is still a staking requirement.

02:07:35.471 --> 02:07:37.453
You need twenty five thousand of whatever

02:07:37.493 --> 02:07:40.395
this sesh coin is.

02:07:40.456 --> 02:07:42.296
I don't know how much that is worth,

02:07:42.337 --> 02:07:43.077
but I think it's not.

02:07:43.398 --> 02:07:45.618
I think it's somewhat significant,

02:07:45.698 --> 02:07:46.239
unfortunately.

02:07:48.051 --> 02:07:49.132
They have a thousand nodes,

02:07:49.212 --> 02:07:51.654
which is a pretty substantial network,

02:07:51.673 --> 02:07:51.934
actually.

02:07:51.953 --> 02:07:53.854
I'm not sure who runs those,

02:07:53.914 --> 02:07:58.256
but the whole cryptocurrency aspect of it

02:07:59.577 --> 02:08:00.717
still doesn't make a lot of sense to

02:08:00.757 --> 02:08:00.837
me.

02:08:02.266 --> 02:08:02.346
Yeah,

02:08:02.367 --> 02:08:04.046
a lot of people really criticized that.

02:08:04.648 --> 02:08:05.828
People had a lot of criticisms.

02:08:05.967 --> 02:08:06.568
Some of them, I think,

02:08:06.587 --> 02:08:07.747
were more valid than others.

02:08:07.927 --> 02:08:09.908
I think you mentioned their whole,

02:08:10.569 --> 02:08:12.229
the reason it costs so much to stake

02:08:12.289 --> 02:08:13.449
is because they were trying to avoid

02:08:13.489 --> 02:08:14.510
what's called a Sybil attack,

02:08:14.529 --> 02:08:16.291
which is where, for listeners,

02:08:16.990 --> 02:08:17.831
it's basically like,

02:08:18.211 --> 02:08:19.912
that's an argument people make about Tor,

02:08:19.952 --> 02:08:20.171
right?

02:08:20.212 --> 02:08:20.612
It's like, well,

02:08:20.671 --> 02:08:23.612
what if the US government just rents a

02:08:23.631 --> 02:08:25.273
bunch of VPSs and runs like a million

02:08:25.313 --> 02:08:25.853
Tor nodes,

02:08:26.172 --> 02:08:27.353
and now they own so much of the

02:08:27.393 --> 02:08:28.833
network that they can easily correlate

02:08:28.854 --> 02:08:29.213
traffic?

02:08:29.354 --> 02:08:29.493
Right.

02:08:29.594 --> 02:08:30.814
And so that's what session was trying to

02:08:30.854 --> 02:08:32.595
avoid is every time somebody spun up a

02:08:32.654 --> 02:08:32.996
node,

02:08:33.336 --> 02:08:34.916
the price increased so that it would

02:08:34.935 --> 02:08:36.837
become financially unfeasible for a

02:08:36.896 --> 02:08:37.778
government to do that.

02:08:37.957 --> 02:08:40.899
And I think you could argue that like

02:08:40.958 --> 02:08:42.640
they, that was the wrong approach.

02:08:42.859 --> 02:08:43.940
I think that's totally fine,

02:08:44.320 --> 02:08:45.862
but I think their logic made sense.

02:08:46.341 --> 02:08:48.502
So yeah, I mean,

02:08:48.523 --> 02:08:49.382
then there's other things that people

02:08:49.403 --> 02:08:50.323
would criticize that I'm like,

02:08:50.344 --> 02:08:52.024
that's just a dumb thing to care about.

02:08:52.043 --> 02:08:53.204
So I don't know.

02:08:53.225 --> 02:08:57.667
The obvious counterpoint I think is that

02:09:00.480 --> 02:09:02.604
If you're worried about somebody with the

02:09:02.663 --> 02:09:04.466
resources of the government running a ton

02:09:04.506 --> 02:09:06.649
of nodes on the Tor network,

02:09:06.668 --> 02:09:08.711
that has a significant cost.

02:09:08.971 --> 02:09:10.793
And they can also just spend that on

02:09:11.314 --> 02:09:12.114
session tokens.

02:09:12.296 --> 02:09:13.858
So I think it actually makes it...

02:09:14.594 --> 02:09:15.194
in my opinion,

02:09:15.234 --> 02:09:18.036
probably more likely that very well-funded

02:09:18.256 --> 02:09:21.278
adversaries could perform a Sybil attack

02:09:21.358 --> 02:09:22.337
on the session network.

02:09:23.259 --> 02:09:24.298
Whereas with Tor,

02:09:25.420 --> 02:09:27.001
there's always going to be like,

02:09:27.780 --> 02:09:28.601
that's very possible.

02:09:28.641 --> 02:09:31.203
And we've seen very large families of Tor

02:09:31.222 --> 02:09:32.423
nodes operated before,

02:09:32.663 --> 02:09:33.885
but also we know that

02:09:34.564 --> 02:09:37.225
a ton of volunteers are running this,

02:09:37.405 --> 02:09:39.127
and there are always going to be a

02:09:39.167 --> 02:09:40.927
lot of people who are just contributing to

02:09:40.988 --> 02:09:43.469
it for the sake of doing so,

02:09:43.868 --> 02:09:45.909
whereas that isn't really possible here.

02:09:46.170 --> 02:09:51.192
I'm really curious how much a session

02:09:51.231 --> 02:09:53.773
token actually is or where you can buy

02:09:53.872 --> 02:09:54.033
it.

02:09:54.953 --> 02:09:57.014
Right now, it looks like it's worth zero.

02:09:57.054 --> 02:10:01.076
They've probably pulled the plug on it in

02:10:01.395 --> 02:10:02.636
light of their impending shutdown,

02:10:02.676 --> 02:10:03.396
but it looks like...

02:10:04.560 --> 02:10:05.880
In the last year,

02:10:05.980 --> 02:10:07.801
it looks like it peaked at about twenty

02:10:07.841 --> 02:10:09.561
five cents or twenty one cents.

02:10:10.582 --> 02:10:12.622
So it was never a particularly expensive

02:10:12.662 --> 02:10:13.082
token.

02:10:13.622 --> 02:10:16.484
So, yeah, I guess I mean,

02:10:16.543 --> 02:10:17.323
even at like.

02:10:18.564 --> 02:10:20.704
Their lowest point before the

02:10:20.744 --> 02:10:22.065
announcement, um.

02:10:23.962 --> 02:10:25.902
was around four cents.

02:10:26.283 --> 02:10:28.542
But if you need twenty five thousand,

02:10:28.563 --> 02:10:29.863
you're still talking about a thousand

02:10:29.903 --> 02:10:31.243
dollar minimum investment.

02:10:31.304 --> 02:10:32.543
That would be hard for people.

02:10:32.783 --> 02:10:35.324
I think most independent server operators

02:10:35.664 --> 02:10:37.885
to justify unless you really liked

02:10:38.005 --> 02:10:38.404
session.

02:10:39.586 --> 02:10:40.305
Yeah, that's true.

02:10:40.506 --> 02:10:42.185
And for most of the time,

02:10:42.225 --> 02:10:43.265
if I'm looking at this graph,

02:10:43.326 --> 02:10:45.827
it was a lot more than four cents.

02:10:45.886 --> 02:10:47.747
So it would have been it peaked at

02:10:47.787 --> 02:10:49.568
like twenty one cents,

02:10:49.627 --> 02:10:50.007
which is

02:10:51.287 --> 02:10:53.868
I don't know, how much would that be?

02:10:53.889 --> 02:10:55.609
That'd be like over five thousand dollars

02:10:56.590 --> 02:10:59.310
that you would have to just stake forever.

02:11:00.192 --> 02:11:02.512
And it obviously wouldn't have turned out

02:11:02.552 --> 02:11:06.373
to be good financially either because now

02:11:06.434 --> 02:11:13.256
it seems like you're just gonna lose that.

02:11:13.296 --> 02:11:14.377
Nate, you're muted again.

02:11:15.488 --> 02:11:18.510
god dang it i just said very unfortunate

02:11:18.529 --> 02:11:21.212
so yeah uh can i better just ask

02:11:21.252 --> 02:11:23.693
how big is the privacy guides team uh

02:11:23.853 --> 02:11:30.395
staff wise um uh it's it's me and

02:11:30.435 --> 02:11:32.435
nate and jordan right now so it's three

02:11:33.436 --> 02:11:33.497
um

02:11:35.069 --> 02:11:36.149
The whole team varies.

02:11:36.409 --> 02:11:38.270
What are we at, eleven people?

02:11:38.369 --> 02:11:40.110
But you can always go to the form.

02:11:40.390 --> 02:11:42.891
I'll just show this really quick.

02:11:42.931 --> 02:11:46.373
If you go to the form and on

02:11:46.413 --> 02:11:47.814
the on the left hand sidebar,

02:11:47.854 --> 02:11:49.175
if you hit the more menu,

02:11:49.475 --> 02:11:50.916
there's a team members option and then you

02:11:50.956 --> 02:11:55.417
can see how many people are listed on

02:11:55.457 --> 02:11:55.957
there.

02:11:57.439 --> 02:11:57.578
So.

02:11:59.351 --> 02:12:00.573
Depending on how you count it,

02:12:02.173 --> 02:12:03.654
some people are more active than others is

02:12:03.694 --> 02:12:05.475
the only reason I say that.

02:12:06.615 --> 02:12:10.658
But certainly a good number of people

02:12:11.297 --> 02:12:11.838
volunteering.

02:12:15.060 --> 02:12:18.202
Cool.

02:12:18.221 --> 02:12:22.463
I think that's probably it for questions

02:12:22.505 --> 02:12:27.266
as far as I see for now.

02:12:27.327 --> 02:12:28.087
Anything else, anyone?

02:12:28.188 --> 02:12:28.728
Last call.

02:12:30.088 --> 02:12:35.942
Last call.

02:12:35.962 --> 02:12:36.243
Oh yeah.

02:12:36.262 --> 02:12:36.582
Look at that.

02:12:36.603 --> 02:12:37.706
If you go to the website and you

02:12:37.746 --> 02:12:39.389
click on team members under the about

02:12:39.430 --> 02:12:40.492
section, it lists everybody.

02:12:43.135 --> 02:12:44.395
Yes, there are ways to find out.

02:12:44.515 --> 02:12:45.896
But currently in terms of staff,

02:12:46.778 --> 02:12:47.559
just us three.

02:12:48.139 --> 02:12:51.521
And honestly, mainly video stuff.

02:12:51.761 --> 02:12:53.703
We do pay for other things,

02:12:54.123 --> 02:12:55.145
like on a contract basis.

02:12:55.185 --> 02:12:55.645
So like,

02:12:56.225 --> 02:12:58.667
Freya gets paid on a per article basis

02:12:58.728 --> 02:13:00.269
for the news stuff.

02:13:00.810 --> 02:13:02.511
If other people contribute news briefs,

02:13:03.671 --> 02:13:05.632
they would get paid as well.

02:13:06.372 --> 02:13:07.993
And we do one off projects.

02:13:08.014 --> 02:13:10.395
So we're working on some stuff with

02:13:10.435 --> 02:13:11.675
individual contributors,

02:13:12.295 --> 02:13:15.176
if we think it's a valuable use of

02:13:15.296 --> 02:13:16.176
our resources,

02:13:16.237 --> 02:13:19.518
but we can only really do so much.

02:13:21.448 --> 02:13:22.429
just in case anyone's wondering,

02:13:22.569 --> 02:13:23.729
I don't get paid per article.

02:13:23.769 --> 02:13:27.832
So you'll see when I put out like

02:13:27.851 --> 02:13:28.813
a whole bunch of articles,

02:13:28.832 --> 02:13:30.092
it's not because I'm trying to make more

02:13:30.132 --> 02:13:30.333
money.

02:13:30.373 --> 02:13:31.875
It's because I'm just like, Oh, cool.

02:13:32.015 --> 02:13:35.317
I have, I have some thoughts on this.

02:13:35.337 --> 02:13:36.277
Cause I know I kind of go up

02:13:36.317 --> 02:13:36.657
and down.

02:13:36.698 --> 02:13:38.819
Like sometimes I don't post anything.

02:13:38.859 --> 02:13:40.199
And other times I put out like three

02:13:40.220 --> 02:13:41.220
or four articles a week.

02:13:41.260 --> 02:13:42.400
And usually it's,

02:13:42.980 --> 02:13:44.061
it depends on the workload.

02:13:44.101 --> 02:13:45.302
So I try not to, um,

02:13:46.689 --> 02:13:48.372
I try to be very mindful of not

02:13:48.391 --> 02:13:49.894
to give you guys a little peek behind

02:13:49.913 --> 02:13:50.194
the scene.

02:13:50.234 --> 02:13:51.817
Jordan does most of the editing.

02:13:52.117 --> 02:13:54.220
So if I'm just constantly writing and

02:13:54.239 --> 02:13:54.581
filming,

02:13:54.720 --> 02:13:56.703
I will overwhelm Jordan really fast.

02:13:57.784 --> 02:13:59.306
So sometimes I hit a point where I'm

02:13:59.327 --> 02:13:59.787
like, okay,

02:13:59.847 --> 02:14:01.128
I think Jordan has a couple of videos

02:14:01.149 --> 02:14:01.369
to edit.

02:14:01.409 --> 02:14:01.649
I'm going to,

02:14:01.670 --> 02:14:03.471
I'm going to write some articles.

02:14:06.890 --> 02:14:07.993
Terracotta Pie asked,

02:14:08.193 --> 02:14:09.453
is there a big need currently to have

02:14:09.514 --> 02:14:11.296
more people around Tor nodes to strengthen

02:14:11.315 --> 02:14:13.077
the anonymity of the Tor network?

02:14:13.537 --> 02:14:15.859
And the answer is always yes, there is.

02:14:15.920 --> 02:14:17.561
And that's the biggest benefit of running

02:14:18.743 --> 02:14:19.703
additional Tor nodes.

02:14:20.203 --> 02:14:20.744
I believe,

02:14:20.805 --> 02:14:22.126
I just wanted to pull up on their

02:14:22.145 --> 02:14:24.667
website to see if they still have this

02:14:24.707 --> 02:14:25.809
graph easy to find.

02:14:26.350 --> 02:14:27.051
In terms of like

02:14:28.082 --> 02:14:28.802
bandwidth.

02:14:30.144 --> 02:14:33.064
The Tor network typically has well more

02:14:33.104 --> 02:14:35.326
than enough collective bandwidth than

02:14:35.345 --> 02:14:37.087
they're actually using,

02:14:37.447 --> 02:14:39.167
but additional loads will still speed it

02:14:39.228 --> 02:14:42.409
up by spreading out that load a bit,

02:14:42.529 --> 02:14:44.951
and the biggest reason is definitely to

02:14:44.990 --> 02:14:45.992
increase anonymity.

02:14:49.345 --> 02:14:50.826
To prevent those Sybil attacks we were

02:14:50.845 --> 02:14:53.429
talking about, the more operators,

02:14:53.849 --> 02:14:55.510
the better in pretty much all cases.

02:14:57.212 --> 02:14:58.112
If you can't...

02:14:58.231 --> 02:15:00.634
There's a huge need for exit nodes more

02:15:00.654 --> 02:15:02.216
than anything, but those have...

02:15:02.970 --> 02:15:04.689
considerable risks involved.

02:15:04.710 --> 02:15:07.211
So I can't really recommend most people do

02:15:07.251 --> 02:15:11.891
that because your ISP can see any of

02:15:11.912 --> 02:15:13.252
your traffic and they'll be seeing a lot

02:15:13.292 --> 02:15:16.313
of random tour traffic that probably some

02:15:16.353 --> 02:15:18.274
of it is not going to be desirable

02:15:18.314 --> 02:15:19.934
for your ISP to see.

02:15:19.974 --> 02:15:22.654
So it could cause a problem, certainly.

02:15:22.975 --> 02:15:26.177
But other types of Tor nodes are helpful,

02:15:26.417 --> 02:15:27.998
or I think a big help is running

02:15:28.078 --> 02:15:29.399
more bridges,

02:15:29.500 --> 02:15:32.502
especially if you want to do this from

02:15:32.561 --> 02:15:33.523
a residential IP.

02:15:36.255 --> 02:15:37.775
Unless you're in a country where Tor is

02:15:38.115 --> 02:15:38.976
completely illegal,

02:15:38.997 --> 02:15:40.398
then you probably shouldn't be running a

02:15:40.417 --> 02:15:41.018
bridge, obviously.

02:15:41.057 --> 02:15:45.301
But in most countries,

02:15:45.320 --> 02:15:47.863
you can definitely run a relay that's a

02:15:47.983 --> 02:15:49.844
non-exit relay with no issues at all.

02:15:50.704 --> 02:15:51.604
And if you run a bridge,

02:15:51.645 --> 02:15:52.645
that's very helpful,

02:15:53.266 --> 02:15:54.567
not just for anonymity,

02:15:54.627 --> 02:15:56.828
but for strengthening the anti-censorship

02:15:57.168 --> 02:15:59.149
properties of the Tor network.

02:15:59.189 --> 02:16:01.551
Because if you run a bridge,

02:16:01.731 --> 02:16:03.913
your IP address is not published in the

02:16:03.953 --> 02:16:04.533
Tor directory,

02:16:07.355 --> 02:16:09.155
It's harder for countries that are

02:16:09.235 --> 02:16:12.057
adversarial to Tor to block,

02:16:12.177 --> 02:16:13.797
and that allows a lot more people to

02:16:13.899 --> 02:16:15.359
access the Tor network than would

02:16:15.399 --> 02:16:16.460
otherwise be able to.

02:16:17.920 --> 02:16:19.600
And there are various ways that that

02:16:20.140 --> 02:16:22.181
traffic is obfuscated as well,

02:16:22.221 --> 02:16:24.443
which makes it more difficult to determine

02:16:24.483 --> 02:16:26.984
whether you're running a Tor relay in the

02:16:27.024 --> 02:16:27.484
first place.

02:16:29.596 --> 02:16:32.039
I think general purpose relays are usually

02:16:32.078 --> 02:16:34.319
more helpful, but if you can't do that,

02:16:35.341 --> 02:16:38.362
running a bridge or running a snowflake

02:16:38.382 --> 02:16:40.043
bridge is probably the easiest way to do

02:16:40.103 --> 02:16:40.203
it.

02:16:41.284 --> 02:16:42.765
But there are other types of bridges as

02:16:42.806 --> 02:16:43.046
well.

02:16:44.166 --> 02:16:46.587
You can run a dedicated snowflake bridge

02:16:46.647 --> 02:16:48.009
on a server or your computer,

02:16:48.049 --> 02:16:49.750
but you can also do it as easily

02:16:49.850 --> 02:16:52.531
as installing an extension in your web

02:16:52.551 --> 02:16:54.693
browser without having to install any

02:16:54.754 --> 02:16:55.634
server related stuff.

02:16:55.693 --> 02:16:57.014
And then it just runs whenever your web

02:16:57.034 --> 02:16:57.655
browser is open.

02:16:58.575 --> 02:17:01.336
If you don't want to do literally any

02:17:01.617 --> 02:17:02.537
server stuff at all,

02:17:03.076 --> 02:17:04.916
you can download the Snowflake extension

02:17:05.236 --> 02:17:07.058
and still contribute to the Tor network

02:17:07.077 --> 02:17:07.358
that way.

02:17:07.397 --> 02:17:08.817
So there's a lot of ways to contribute.

02:17:09.938 --> 02:17:11.799
And I think the Tor network would always

02:17:11.818 --> 02:17:14.879
appreciate more people doing that.

02:17:15.138 --> 02:17:16.700
I just wanted to offer my experience

02:17:16.719 --> 02:17:18.680
because I ran a Tor node a while

02:17:18.719 --> 02:17:18.879
ago.

02:17:18.899 --> 02:17:20.059
It's been a minute since I've done it.

02:17:20.980 --> 02:17:22.001
Number one, yes, I'm with you.

02:17:22.140 --> 02:17:23.880
I think it would be awesome if we

02:17:23.900 --> 02:17:27.022
could get more US exit nodes strictly

02:17:27.061 --> 02:17:27.582
because

02:17:28.593 --> 02:17:29.894
It's not so much of an issue nowadays,

02:17:29.933 --> 02:17:31.235
but I know for a long time,

02:17:31.835 --> 02:17:34.198
Tor was practically unusable to me because

02:17:34.298 --> 02:17:36.138
every website I went to would default to

02:17:36.340 --> 02:17:38.641
usually German because my exit node was in

02:17:38.682 --> 02:17:39.022
Germany,

02:17:39.582 --> 02:17:41.404
and I could never get an exit node

02:17:41.443 --> 02:17:42.625
in an English-speaking country,

02:17:42.645 --> 02:17:44.306
and it was so frustrating.

02:17:44.986 --> 02:17:45.888
I realize, as I say,

02:17:45.927 --> 02:17:46.927
that I haven't had that issue in a

02:17:46.948 --> 02:17:48.389
while, so maybe they fixed that, but...

02:17:50.393 --> 02:17:55.095
Yeah, exit nodes, there are certain ISPs.

02:17:55.115 --> 02:17:56.537
I don't think the Tor project keeps a

02:17:56.557 --> 02:17:57.037
list anymore,

02:17:57.057 --> 02:17:58.939
but there are certain like VPS providers

02:17:59.019 --> 02:18:02.001
who are friendly to exit nodes.

02:18:02.980 --> 02:18:04.322
You can reach out to them and ask.

02:18:04.522 --> 02:18:05.643
And I would say that to your ISP

02:18:05.663 --> 02:18:06.884
too, because I was very surprised.

02:18:07.183 --> 02:18:07.724
For a while,

02:18:07.763 --> 02:18:10.585
my wife and I had Google Fiber and

02:18:10.966 --> 02:18:12.927
I reached out to them and I was

02:18:12.948 --> 02:18:13.288
like, hey,

02:18:13.327 --> 02:18:14.327
I want to run a Tor node,

02:18:14.828 --> 02:18:15.588
like not an exit node.

02:18:15.609 --> 02:18:16.469
I just want to run like a middle

02:18:16.510 --> 02:18:16.809
relay.

02:18:17.530 --> 02:18:19.031
And to my surprise, they were like, yeah,

02:18:19.070 --> 02:18:19.412
go for it.

02:18:20.049 --> 02:18:21.110
And I was like, really, Google,

02:18:21.430 --> 02:18:21.870
are you sure?

02:18:22.331 --> 02:18:23.572
And like,

02:18:23.611 --> 02:18:25.272
but I ran an exit node or not

02:18:25.313 --> 02:18:25.713
an exit node.

02:18:25.793 --> 02:18:27.495
I ran a middle node out of my

02:18:27.534 --> 02:18:28.115
apartment for,

02:18:29.496 --> 02:18:29.717
God,

02:18:29.756 --> 02:18:31.497
probably close to a year and never had

02:18:31.597 --> 02:18:32.638
any issues at all.

02:18:32.698 --> 02:18:34.299
But check with your ISP because some of

02:18:34.318 --> 02:18:35.238
them do not allow that,

02:18:35.379 --> 02:18:36.219
even if it's a middle node.

02:18:37.579 --> 02:18:39.700
I think by default, your middle node,

02:18:39.941 --> 02:18:41.322
once you've been online for a while and

02:18:41.342 --> 02:18:42.442
they consider you trustworthy,

02:18:42.862 --> 02:18:44.462
you will be upgraded to a guard node,

02:18:44.884 --> 02:18:46.543
which is basically like an entry node.

02:18:48.245 --> 02:18:50.005
I think there's a way to opt out

02:18:50.025 --> 02:18:51.066
of that if you don't want to do

02:18:51.105 --> 02:18:51.206
it.

02:18:51.245 --> 02:18:52.127
But I think by default,

02:18:52.227 --> 02:18:53.186
those are the ones that tend to be

02:18:53.246 --> 02:18:54.907
less risky because everything's encrypted.

02:18:55.288 --> 02:18:56.308
So as long as your ISP is cool

02:18:56.328 --> 02:18:57.049
with it, that's fine.

02:18:57.567 --> 02:18:58.549
But yeah, exit nodes,

02:18:59.088 --> 02:19:01.570
what I've been told is it's kind of

02:19:01.591 --> 02:19:02.672
a double-edged sword because on the one

02:19:02.711 --> 02:19:02.932
hand,

02:19:03.012 --> 02:19:04.272
if it's coming out of a data center,

02:19:04.393 --> 02:19:05.474
like if you host a VPS,

02:19:05.574 --> 02:19:06.793
then there's a lot of websites that'll

02:19:06.814 --> 02:19:08.114
probably block it just by default.

02:19:08.376 --> 02:19:09.316
But on the other hand,

02:19:09.675 --> 02:19:10.436
like Jonah was saying,

02:19:10.516 --> 02:19:12.458
it can potentially be risky to run it

02:19:12.477 --> 02:19:13.158
out of your own home.

02:19:14.423 --> 02:19:15.563
I have a friend in law enforcement.

02:19:15.683 --> 02:19:17.343
He's told me it's usually not an issue

02:19:17.384 --> 02:19:18.724
that I'm not a lawyer for the record.

02:19:18.884 --> 02:19:19.384
Let me finish.

02:19:20.024 --> 02:19:21.245
He's told me that in his experience,

02:19:21.264 --> 02:19:22.245
it's not usually an issue.

02:19:22.325 --> 02:19:24.386
What will happen is the cops will like

02:19:24.406 --> 02:19:25.445
get a flag that, you know,

02:19:25.466 --> 02:19:26.325
from the ISP.

02:19:26.665 --> 02:19:28.047
They'll go to investigate and the person's

02:19:28.066 --> 02:19:29.467
like, oh, I run an exit node.

02:19:29.547 --> 02:19:31.086
Here's my server sitting in the corner.

02:19:31.147 --> 02:19:31.768
I can show you.

02:19:32.167 --> 02:19:33.507
I'll pull whatever logs I have,

02:19:33.528 --> 02:19:34.548
but I probably don't have anything.

02:19:34.647 --> 02:19:35.668
And the cops just roll their eyes and

02:19:35.689 --> 02:19:36.468
go, well, that's frustrating.

02:19:37.129 --> 02:19:40.050
um but again we're not lawyers we don't

02:19:40.070 --> 02:19:41.971
know what will happen so yeah i would

02:19:41.992 --> 02:19:43.933
talk to a real lawyer i would try

02:19:44.254 --> 02:19:46.174
to get some expert opinion on that before

02:19:46.235 --> 02:19:47.415
gambling that's why i've never done it

02:19:47.456 --> 02:19:49.256
myself so um yeah

02:19:50.972 --> 02:19:51.612
I will say real quick,

02:19:51.673 --> 02:19:52.352
one last thought on that.

02:19:53.193 --> 02:19:54.613
What I tried to do in my last

02:19:54.654 --> 02:19:56.534
town that nobody ever got back to me,

02:19:56.555 --> 02:19:58.194
this was also right when lockdown started,

02:19:58.215 --> 02:19:59.395
which is probably why nobody got back to

02:19:59.434 --> 02:19:59.495
me.

02:19:59.594 --> 02:20:00.695
I should probably try again in this new

02:20:00.736 --> 02:20:00.935
town.

02:20:01.556 --> 02:20:03.575
Try if you can to get in touch

02:20:03.615 --> 02:20:05.137
with schools or libraries,

02:20:05.356 --> 02:20:06.477
public institutions,

02:20:06.936 --> 02:20:08.057
because in a perfect world,

02:20:08.176 --> 02:20:09.657
that would be the best place to run

02:20:09.677 --> 02:20:09.757
it.

02:20:09.977 --> 02:20:11.737
If you can get your local university and

02:20:11.757 --> 02:20:12.378
be like, hey,

02:20:12.779 --> 02:20:14.398
this is a really great project for your

02:20:14.439 --> 02:20:15.759
students because it will teach them how to

02:20:15.779 --> 02:20:16.498
be sysadmins.

02:20:16.539 --> 02:20:17.959
It'll give them hands-on experience with

02:20:18.000 --> 02:20:18.520
Linux and

02:20:19.079 --> 02:20:19.720
All that kind of stuff.

02:20:19.761 --> 02:20:20.961
It'll help strengthen the system.

02:20:21.381 --> 02:20:22.942
And they could run an exit node out

02:20:22.983 --> 02:20:24.543
of the university's IT department.

02:20:24.703 --> 02:20:25.864
And they have the legal team.

02:20:25.905 --> 02:20:27.025
They're equipped to deal with it.

02:20:28.707 --> 02:20:29.927
Public libraries, I think.

02:20:30.327 --> 02:20:31.728
It's hard to get a hold of somebody

02:20:31.748 --> 02:20:33.229
because these are really busy,

02:20:33.350 --> 02:20:34.390
usually underpaid people.

02:20:34.890 --> 02:20:36.451
But I forget where I got that piece

02:20:36.471 --> 02:20:36.993
of advice from.

02:20:37.013 --> 02:20:37.813
But if you can get a hold of

02:20:37.852 --> 02:20:40.055
somebody at a public institution like

02:20:40.094 --> 02:20:41.855
that, that would probably be the best.

02:20:42.036 --> 02:20:42.496
Because then...

02:20:43.197 --> 02:20:44.819
It's less likely to be blocked compared to

02:20:44.840 --> 02:20:45.421
a data center,

02:20:45.461 --> 02:20:47.165
but it's also less liability on you.

02:20:47.745 --> 02:20:49.468
But yeah, it's tricky.

02:20:49.950 --> 02:20:51.372
There's no easy solutions for an exit

02:20:51.413 --> 02:20:52.154
node.

02:20:52.194 --> 02:20:52.274
No.

02:20:53.171 --> 02:20:55.953
Talking with law enforcement or the feds,

02:20:57.875 --> 02:21:01.398
another thing that I've heard is that

02:21:02.540 --> 02:21:03.620
traffic from Tor,

02:21:03.980 --> 02:21:05.082
for one reason or another,

02:21:05.121 --> 02:21:08.745
is not super big on their radar anymore.

02:21:08.845 --> 02:21:10.406
They're seeing a lot more traffic through.

02:21:10.888 --> 02:21:12.568
I talked about this a long time ago.

02:21:12.588 --> 02:21:12.969
I don't know.

02:21:12.989 --> 02:21:13.990
It was probably like...

02:21:14.861 --> 02:21:16.041
half a year ago on one of these

02:21:16.061 --> 02:21:16.522
episodes,

02:21:16.602 --> 02:21:19.967
but they're seeing a lot more suspicious

02:21:20.066 --> 02:21:22.109
traffic coming out of residential proxies.

02:21:22.248 --> 02:21:24.691
So it's probably far more dangerous than

02:21:24.731 --> 02:21:25.031
running a

02:21:26.653 --> 02:21:29.254
then running a Tor node to just buy

02:21:29.295 --> 02:21:31.537
some random Android box on Amazon and

02:21:31.576 --> 02:21:32.618
install that on your network.

02:21:32.859 --> 02:21:35.281
That's how most of that stuff happens,

02:21:35.460 --> 02:21:39.103
and they end up knocking down some

02:21:39.144 --> 02:21:42.367
grandma's door because they bought some

02:21:42.406 --> 02:21:45.030
cheap Android box on Amazon that's

02:21:45.190 --> 02:21:47.031
relaying some random traffic through

02:21:47.050 --> 02:21:47.230
there.

02:21:47.811 --> 02:21:48.413
There's a lot of

02:21:49.423 --> 02:21:50.744
If you search up pretty much any of

02:21:50.763 --> 02:21:52.184
these residential proxy companies,

02:21:52.204 --> 02:21:53.125
there's a few of them,

02:21:53.684 --> 02:21:56.447
and they all claim that their IPs are

02:21:56.486 --> 02:21:57.047
above board,

02:21:57.106 --> 02:21:59.048
but pretty much every single company that

02:21:59.088 --> 02:22:02.710
is offering access to residential IPs or

02:22:02.870 --> 02:22:05.111
ways to get around VPN blocks are all

02:22:05.131 --> 02:22:07.333
getting those IPs and connections through

02:22:08.134 --> 02:22:09.353
very unethical means,

02:22:09.394 --> 02:22:09.975
whether that's

02:22:10.635 --> 02:22:15.117
dedicated Android boxes or malware browser

02:22:15.137 --> 02:22:17.198
extensions that get installed on people's

02:22:17.237 --> 02:22:18.299
computers or what have you.

02:22:18.818 --> 02:22:20.579
And that tends to be a bigger concern

02:22:20.620 --> 02:22:21.059
nowadays.

02:22:22.441 --> 02:22:25.361
So just something to think about.

02:22:27.243 --> 02:22:28.564
I think we did talk about that a

02:22:28.603 --> 02:22:29.263
few months ago.

02:22:29.843 --> 02:22:31.584
I forget what the context was,

02:22:31.665 --> 02:22:33.126
but I remember you talking about that.

02:22:36.047 --> 02:22:37.427
I guess maybe last question.

02:22:38.667 --> 02:22:39.929
Do you have any experience with IDOPEE?

02:22:41.191 --> 02:22:42.311
You know, I just wanted to look.

02:22:43.673 --> 02:22:46.153
We used to list it on our site,

02:22:46.212 --> 02:22:47.593
and then we removed it.

02:22:47.674 --> 02:22:49.474
I don't remember if we added it back,

02:22:49.533 --> 02:22:52.075
so I wanted to look at Privacy Guides

02:22:52.094 --> 02:22:55.755
and see if it's still on there.

02:22:56.796 --> 02:22:58.756
While he's checking that, I personally,

02:22:59.316 --> 02:23:00.697
I think I tried to tinker around with

02:23:00.717 --> 02:23:01.858
it one time, and...

02:23:03.257 --> 02:23:05.260
I found it very difficult to understand

02:23:05.299 --> 02:23:05.739
and use.

02:23:05.819 --> 02:23:06.420
And it's also like,

02:23:06.480 --> 02:23:08.641
it's the same problem with like Tor,

02:23:08.682 --> 02:23:08.941
right?

02:23:09.061 --> 02:23:11.824
Is a lot of people download the Tor

02:23:11.843 --> 02:23:13.325
browser and their first thing is like,

02:23:13.425 --> 02:23:13.986
okay, now what?

02:23:14.605 --> 02:23:16.166
Like, you know,

02:23:16.188 --> 02:23:19.469
there's no Google for Onion sites, right?

02:23:19.530 --> 02:23:20.751
So a lot of people have a hard

02:23:20.790 --> 02:23:22.391
time finding Onion services.

02:23:24.693 --> 02:23:26.135
So it was kind of the same thing

02:23:26.155 --> 02:23:26.415
for me.

02:23:26.454 --> 02:23:26.975
It's like, okay,

02:23:27.014 --> 02:23:28.216
now that I've downloaded it, now what?

02:23:28.275 --> 02:23:29.217
I guess the only difference is,

02:23:30.546 --> 02:23:31.945
And maybe this is a point in IDP's

02:23:31.966 --> 02:23:32.206
favor.

02:23:32.365 --> 02:23:33.707
I didn't really know if I even set

02:23:33.727 --> 02:23:34.166
it up right.

02:23:34.207 --> 02:23:35.346
Because, you know, with the Tor browser,

02:23:35.387 --> 02:23:36.246
you download it, you open it,

02:23:36.287 --> 02:23:37.406
it says you're connected and you start

02:23:37.447 --> 02:23:37.788
surfing.

02:23:38.227 --> 02:23:39.288
And even if you never go to an

02:23:39.327 --> 02:23:39.788
Onion site,

02:23:39.827 --> 02:23:41.167
you know that you're using the Tor

02:23:41.188 --> 02:23:41.567
network.

02:23:42.549 --> 02:23:43.289
With IDP,

02:23:43.429 --> 02:23:45.009
I never really had that indicator.

02:23:45.109 --> 02:23:45.468
So I was like,

02:23:45.568 --> 02:23:46.748
I don't even know if I'm using it

02:23:46.789 --> 02:23:47.129
or not.

02:23:47.149 --> 02:23:49.309
And I think maybe it was user error

02:23:49.329 --> 02:23:49.709
for the record,

02:23:49.729 --> 02:23:51.030
because this was way back in my early

02:23:51.069 --> 02:23:52.771
days when I was first starting my privacy

02:23:52.810 --> 02:23:53.070
journey.

02:23:53.091 --> 02:23:53.191
Yeah.

02:23:54.115 --> 02:23:55.457
I was screwing up a lot of things

02:23:55.516 --> 02:23:56.617
cause I was kind of just throwing

02:23:56.656 --> 02:23:57.698
everything at the wall and seeing what

02:23:57.718 --> 02:23:58.358
would stick for me.

02:23:58.638 --> 02:23:59.638
Um, but yeah, I,

02:23:59.879 --> 02:24:01.739
I personally found it at the time to

02:24:01.780 --> 02:24:05.281
be a little bit user unfriendly and I

02:24:05.301 --> 02:24:05.541
don't know.

02:24:05.662 --> 02:24:06.502
I've just, I've always,

02:24:07.122 --> 02:24:09.463
I've never really bought into the, um,

02:24:10.443 --> 02:24:12.284
the claims that tour is like super

02:24:12.344 --> 02:24:13.745
compromised and can't be trusted.

02:24:13.806 --> 02:24:15.207
So like, is I to P better?

02:24:15.826 --> 02:24:16.826
Maybe, I don't know.

02:24:16.867 --> 02:24:17.528
That's above my head.

02:24:17.548 --> 02:24:18.688
I'm not really qualified to say,

02:24:18.768 --> 02:24:20.929
but personally I don't have any issue with

02:24:20.969 --> 02:24:22.829
tour that stops me from using it.

02:24:22.870 --> 02:24:23.831
So that's my experience.

02:24:24.237 --> 02:24:25.959
yeah i think what holds i to be

02:24:25.979 --> 02:24:28.721
back um significantly is the lack of a

02:24:28.881 --> 02:24:31.325
user like a general purpose accessible

02:24:31.444 --> 02:24:34.326
option um tor is very useful for

02:24:35.327 --> 02:24:38.230
non-technical people people i mean a lot

02:24:38.251 --> 02:24:40.972
of people probably imagine that like tor

02:24:41.033 --> 02:24:43.796
isn't used that much except like in the

02:24:43.816 --> 02:24:45.458
privacy community but that that is not

02:24:45.497 --> 02:24:47.119
true like in a lot of countries where

02:24:47.138 --> 02:24:49.640
there is extensive censorship tor sees

02:24:50.441 --> 02:24:53.965
a lot of use by a wide variety

02:24:53.985 --> 02:24:55.647
of people, whether that's I mean,

02:24:55.707 --> 02:24:58.029
not even necessarily through the Tor

02:24:58.049 --> 02:24:59.350
browser on your computer a lot of the

02:24:59.370 --> 02:24:59.610
time,

02:24:59.649 --> 02:25:02.893
like the people who are more concerned

02:25:02.933 --> 02:25:04.895
about privacy and anonymity are,

02:25:04.934 --> 02:25:05.395
but like

02:25:06.112 --> 02:25:08.175
using it on your phone or using Tor

02:25:08.195 --> 02:25:10.558
VPN on your phone or whatever.

02:25:11.680 --> 02:25:13.822
Those are very valuable tools to

02:25:14.302 --> 02:25:16.424
journalists and to activists and other

02:25:17.046 --> 02:25:19.208
just people in these censored countries.

02:25:19.869 --> 02:25:21.730
And that really increases the...

02:25:22.631 --> 02:25:24.813
usability of Tor a lot,

02:25:27.193 --> 02:25:30.095
which first of all means that there's more

02:25:30.136 --> 02:25:32.096
hidden services on Tor in the first place,

02:25:32.137 --> 02:25:35.138
but also Tor has the option to have

02:25:35.379 --> 02:25:35.918
exit nodes,

02:25:35.959 --> 02:25:38.719
whereas ITP doesn't have that built in by

02:25:39.101 --> 02:25:39.540
default.

02:25:40.381 --> 02:25:43.485
It's possible to run an I-to-P service

02:25:43.504 --> 02:25:44.707
that acts as an exit note,

02:25:44.727 --> 02:25:47.870
and some companies will do that,

02:25:48.470 --> 02:25:53.156
but it's very rare for that to happen.

02:25:53.175 --> 02:25:55.199
There's only a handful of public exit

02:25:55.238 --> 02:25:56.900
notes on I-to-P that I know of,

02:25:57.081 --> 02:25:59.143
and so using it

02:26:01.004 --> 02:26:02.006
for that purpose,

02:26:02.027 --> 02:26:03.067
for just browsing the web,

02:26:03.188 --> 02:26:04.228
is pretty limited.

02:26:04.889 --> 02:26:08.093
And I think that's a big reason that

02:26:08.213 --> 02:26:10.195
I-to-P isn't very commonly used.

02:26:11.337 --> 02:26:12.658
We do have it on our site again.

02:26:13.280 --> 02:26:15.402
I do remember the discussion about this,

02:26:15.461 --> 02:26:17.504
and then I can talk a bit about

02:26:17.545 --> 02:26:18.345
my experience.

02:26:18.525 --> 02:26:19.346
But we...

02:26:20.747 --> 02:26:21.748
When we looked into this,

02:26:21.789 --> 02:26:23.950
there are some benefits just from a

02:26:24.030 --> 02:26:26.490
technical perspective compared to Tor.

02:26:26.831 --> 02:26:30.093
ITP does a lot of interesting stuff that

02:26:30.513 --> 02:26:33.373
theoretically does improve the privacy,

02:26:33.414 --> 02:26:33.994
security,

02:26:34.213 --> 02:26:34.774
anonymity

02:26:36.014 --> 02:26:38.496
beyond what Tor is doing.

02:26:40.879 --> 02:26:45.082
So for accessing ITP sites,

02:26:46.763 --> 02:26:49.363
it's certainly better than accessing clear

02:26:49.404 --> 02:26:50.745
net sites like through an exit node,

02:26:50.805 --> 02:26:54.468
but it's probably better than accessing

02:26:54.507 --> 02:26:55.988
Tor hidden services as well,

02:26:56.588 --> 02:26:59.511
but not to a super significant degree.

02:27:00.031 --> 02:27:02.052
And since the use case just isn't there

02:27:02.073 --> 02:27:02.953
as much, it's...

02:27:05.014 --> 02:27:06.136
I don't know,

02:27:06.516 --> 02:27:07.878
not a lot of benefits to using it

02:27:07.938 --> 02:27:09.979
over Tor, I would agree.

02:27:12.082 --> 02:27:14.063
I tried setting up some stuff with it

02:27:14.102 --> 02:27:15.043
like a year ago now,

02:27:15.985 --> 02:27:17.547
but we just never really saw any

02:27:18.486 --> 02:27:21.750
significant traffic, and it is,

02:27:21.870 --> 02:27:22.650
like Dave was saying,

02:27:24.153 --> 02:27:25.052
a lot harder to use.

02:27:30.237 --> 02:27:31.477
When you set it up manually in a

02:27:31.518 --> 02:27:35.459
browser, like with a SOX five proxy,

02:27:36.319 --> 02:27:38.200
you lose out on a lot of the

02:27:38.380 --> 02:27:41.622
benefits that the Tor project provides in

02:27:41.683 --> 02:27:42.602
Tor browser as well,

02:27:42.643 --> 02:27:44.004
because Tor is not only

02:27:44.984 --> 02:27:45.443
network,

02:27:45.604 --> 02:27:47.806
but it's also a huge anti-fingerprinting

02:27:47.845 --> 02:27:48.345
project.

02:27:48.825 --> 02:27:50.227
All of the modifications that they're

02:27:50.246 --> 02:27:52.609
making to Firefox improve your anonymity a

02:27:52.629 --> 02:27:52.908
lot,

02:27:53.449 --> 02:27:55.450
and you're not really getting that on ITP.

02:27:56.730 --> 02:27:59.612
I suppose you could probably use Malved

02:27:59.673 --> 02:28:03.295
Browser with a proxy,

02:28:03.334 --> 02:28:05.195
but I don't know how many people do

02:28:05.236 --> 02:28:06.897
that on ITP at the moment, and...

02:28:08.698 --> 02:28:11.100
You kind of need a crowd of people

02:28:11.139 --> 02:28:13.041
to blend in with, like Tor Browser has.

02:28:13.082 --> 02:28:14.403
So unless a lot of people are doing

02:28:14.423 --> 02:28:15.183
that on ITP,

02:28:15.724 --> 02:28:16.985
Malva Browser is not going to be a

02:28:17.065 --> 02:28:17.764
huge advantage.

02:28:17.885 --> 02:28:20.346
But I'm curious about that now.

02:28:20.387 --> 02:28:22.369
I should test out Malva Browser on ITP

02:28:22.388 --> 02:28:22.789
sometime.

02:28:24.069 --> 02:28:25.191
But yeah,

02:28:25.230 --> 02:28:26.412
hopefully some of that made sense.

02:28:27.872 --> 02:28:28.953
It's an interesting project,

02:28:28.994 --> 02:28:32.175
but it's just not a lot of use

02:28:32.216 --> 02:28:34.038
cases for it that I can think of.

02:28:36.590 --> 02:28:39.252
I think looking at the website here,

02:28:39.551 --> 02:28:41.953
privacy guides, unlike Tor,

02:28:42.054 --> 02:28:43.534
all IDP traffic is internal,

02:28:43.555 --> 02:28:45.036
which means regular internet websites are

02:28:45.095 --> 02:28:46.236
not directly accessible.

02:28:46.656 --> 02:28:48.317
So that's probably what held me back,

02:28:48.337 --> 02:28:49.158
because I connected to it.

02:28:49.179 --> 02:28:50.039
And I'm like, OK, cool.

02:28:50.078 --> 02:28:50.459
Now what?

02:28:50.540 --> 02:28:51.440
I have nowhere to go.

02:28:51.581 --> 02:28:52.960
I don't know any of these websites.

02:28:53.041 --> 02:28:56.783
So yeah, I don't know.

02:28:57.203 --> 02:28:57.645
I agree with you.

02:28:57.665 --> 02:28:59.406
If it's only accessible for other stuff,

02:28:59.525 --> 02:29:01.346
I feel like that dramatically reduces.

02:29:01.367 --> 02:29:02.927
Because I try to use Tor where I

02:29:02.948 --> 02:29:03.168
can.

02:29:04.121 --> 02:29:04.442
Um,

02:29:04.522 --> 02:29:05.724
and that's the nice thing about tour is,

02:29:05.744 --> 02:29:07.125
you know, I can still go to,

02:29:07.906 --> 02:29:12.569
to the proton, um, most news websites,

02:29:12.610 --> 02:29:13.931
summer hit or miss, um,

02:29:13.950 --> 02:29:15.653
depending on the exit note that I'm on.

02:29:15.673 --> 02:29:16.372
But like,

02:29:16.452 --> 02:29:18.034
I can still mostly use the internet in

02:29:18.055 --> 02:29:20.217
a normal fashion compared to this,

02:29:20.236 --> 02:29:20.537
where it's like,

02:29:20.576 --> 02:29:21.778
imagine if you could only go to hidden

02:29:21.817 --> 02:29:24.139
services and it's just like, oh, cool.

02:29:24.159 --> 02:29:26.882
That's not really going to be useful for

02:29:26.923 --> 02:29:28.224
my day-to-day browsing personally.

02:29:28.774 --> 02:29:30.615
Another thing I will say about ITP,

02:29:30.656 --> 02:29:33.619
though, is that, well,

02:29:33.638 --> 02:29:34.819
we just talked about a lot of reasons

02:29:34.860 --> 02:29:36.941
that it's not super helpful for web

02:29:36.980 --> 02:29:37.721
browsing traffic.

02:29:38.281 --> 02:29:40.644
A huge advantage that ITP does have over

02:29:40.703 --> 02:29:43.945
Tor is that you can really send any

02:29:44.066 --> 02:29:45.246
sort of traffic over it,

02:29:45.426 --> 02:29:48.228
and so it's far more flexible in that

02:29:48.269 --> 02:29:48.610
regard.

02:29:48.649 --> 02:29:51.131
You will see it used for file sharing,

02:29:51.152 --> 02:29:51.731
for example,

02:29:51.772 --> 02:29:54.513
whereas running BitTorrent on Tor

02:29:54.554 --> 02:29:58.536
Tor is highly recommended against and also

02:29:58.736 --> 02:30:01.618
isn't as usable, whereas on I-to-P,

02:30:02.417 --> 02:30:04.039
the network can support that type of

02:30:04.099 --> 02:30:06.440
operation much better.

02:30:06.479 --> 02:30:09.801
So if you have to share documents or

02:30:09.842 --> 02:30:12.343
other files through means like that,

02:30:12.442 --> 02:30:16.364
I-to-P could certainly have benefits that

02:30:16.405 --> 02:30:17.745
Tor doesn't have there.

02:30:19.761 --> 02:30:19.921
Yeah,

02:30:20.040 --> 02:30:23.082
I-to-be is definitely something you could

02:30:23.301 --> 02:30:26.564
use if you know the other people using

02:30:26.603 --> 02:30:27.904
it and you want to connect to each

02:30:27.963 --> 02:30:29.504
other through that and you want to build

02:30:29.524 --> 02:30:31.145
your own network that goes through this

02:30:32.245 --> 02:30:33.206
anonymizing thing.

02:30:33.245 --> 02:30:35.566
But just for accessing public services,

02:30:35.606 --> 02:30:37.788
there aren't a lot of public things on

02:30:37.808 --> 02:30:39.549
there that would make it useful.

02:30:40.629 --> 02:30:42.489
So I just want to give them that.

02:30:42.530 --> 02:30:44.751
There are some benefits to it over Tor

02:30:44.870 --> 02:30:45.531
for sure.

02:30:53.777 --> 02:30:54.417
All right.

02:30:54.477 --> 02:30:55.257
Is that it for the week?

02:31:00.502 --> 02:31:03.283
I think that pretty much just about wraps

02:31:03.324 --> 02:31:05.165
it up, doesn't it?

02:31:05.245 --> 02:31:05.786
I think so.

02:31:07.367 --> 02:31:08.968
Nice and chatty in the comments this week.

02:31:09.007 --> 02:31:09.448
I love it.

02:31:09.908 --> 02:31:10.808
I love it.

02:31:11.049 --> 02:31:12.691
It really motivates us when you guys are

02:31:13.111 --> 02:31:13.591
interactive.

02:31:13.611 --> 02:31:14.852
And we're trying to be more interactive

02:31:14.871 --> 02:31:15.972
with you guys as well throughout the

02:31:16.013 --> 02:31:16.393
episode.

02:31:16.413 --> 02:31:18.315
So thank you so much for everybody who

02:31:18.514 --> 02:31:19.075
left a comment.

02:31:19.636 --> 02:31:20.236
Yeah, absolutely.

02:31:21.976 --> 02:31:23.877
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