WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:04.040 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:09.680 have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they 00:00:09.680 --> 00:00:13.888 got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. 00:00:14.032 --> 00:00:18.839 How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, 00:00:19.169 --> 00:00:21.689 and most importantly, find joy. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.259 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:24.373 --> 00:00:27.463 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:27.468 --> 00:00:31.456 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:31.456 --> 00:00:37.074 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:37.074 --> 00:00:40.809 On this, podcast for live free, ride free, I have a legend. 00:00:41.499 --> 00:00:46.059 I have Warwick Shiller, um, for those of you who know him, , he doesn't need 00:00:46.059 --> 00:00:49.269 much introduction, but for those of you who don't yet know him, where you 00:00:49.274 --> 00:00:53.709 should and you will now Warwick, , with his attuned horsemanship, , Started 00:00:53.709 --> 00:00:58.489 an online library after video library after, , enormous success, , as a 00:00:58.489 --> 00:01:01.709 Rainer and trainer, including going to the world, equestrian games. 00:01:01.709 --> 00:01:03.209 He's Australian and so on. 00:01:03.209 --> 00:01:06.619 His video library on, , on horse training has a bazillion people 00:01:06.739 --> 00:01:08.179 constantly downloading it and so on. 00:01:08.249 --> 00:01:12.239 However, that's really in some ways the least of his talents. 00:01:12.289 --> 00:01:13.849 , not to denigrate that at all. 00:01:14.389 --> 00:01:17.389 , warwick's an extraordinary human, and you're gonna see this as we go, 00:01:17.669 --> 00:01:21.909 , through, and our conversation, I warn you, is gonna go quite far from horses. 00:01:22.639 --> 00:01:27.284 it might circle back to horses from time to time, but, Warwick, I think 00:01:27.284 --> 00:01:32.284 like many people who have achieved a sort of, a certain level of success, 00:01:32.354 --> 00:01:36.134 within the horse training world, has arrived at that point where he has 00:01:36.134 --> 00:01:37.634 to ask himself, well, well, what now? 00:01:37.714 --> 00:01:38.224 , is that it? 00:01:38.884 --> 00:01:44.224 And what he's done with that question is highly, highly, highly 00:01:44.224 --> 00:01:48.244 unusual and basically helping to make the world a better place. 00:01:48.364 --> 00:01:53.114 so Warwick Schiller, the man, the legend, the explorer of Human 00:01:53.114 --> 00:01:56.234 consciousness and other consciousnesses. 00:01:56.754 --> 00:01:58.194 Hello and thank you for coming on. 00:01:59.274 --> 00:02:00.744 Warwick Schiller: Hey, it's an honor to be here with you, Rupert. 00:02:02.334 --> 00:02:06.384 Rupert Isaacson: Those, those of you who might have listened to Warwick 00:02:06.389 --> 00:02:08.424 Shiller's amazing podcast called Journey. 00:02:09.399 --> 00:02:11.949 , which again has about a bazillion people listening to it every minute. 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:15.839 , might recall that he, , interviewed me, , a couple of years ago. 00:02:16.409 --> 00:02:20.569 And, , in the first time we tried it, the conversation went 00:02:20.569 --> 00:02:22.369 to shamanism rather quickly. 00:02:22.879 --> 00:02:26.569 And, , the equipment shut down, which is, and works like, ah, I 00:02:26.569 --> 00:02:27.449 can't understand what's going on. 00:02:27.449 --> 00:02:30.779 And I'm like, yeah, actually this is not atypical. 00:02:30.889 --> 00:02:35.319 , so I warn you guys, , something like that could happen if there's silence. 00:02:35.349 --> 00:02:39.539 , suddenly we'll have to , restart because sometimes when you go into the 00:02:39.539 --> 00:02:44.739 shamanic, electronic equipment, tends to malfunction shut down, do funny things. 00:02:44.859 --> 00:02:48.634 anyone who has worked in the indigenous world around, healing ceremonies has 00:02:48.859 --> 00:02:52.249 had and tried to record them or or film them, has had this experience. 00:02:52.789 --> 00:02:56.959 Just before we jump in with Warwick, I mean, remember that the main theme of live 00:02:56.959 --> 00:03:02.749 free, ride free is self-actualization, is people who have, manage to live 00:03:02.749 --> 00:03:09.809 life on their terms, in a way that helps humanity move forward in some sort of way. 00:03:10.139 --> 00:03:12.509 And as you know, on this show, we don't really care whether you do 00:03:12.509 --> 00:03:16.699 that with horses, balloons, bicycles, elephants, or playing armpit orchestra. 00:03:16.909 --> 00:03:18.079 The important thing. 00:03:18.424 --> 00:03:19.144 Is that you do it. 00:03:19.144 --> 00:03:20.894 So, Warwick has come in through horses. 00:03:20.894 --> 00:03:21.884 He's still with horses. 00:03:22.314 --> 00:03:25.824 But his life story and where he's going with it now is, is 00:03:25.824 --> 00:03:26.754 really quite extraordinary. 00:03:26.754 --> 00:03:29.814 So Warwick, tell us about you. 00:03:29.819 --> 00:03:30.504 Who is 00:03:30.864 --> 00:03:35.574 Warwick Schiller: Warwick schiller . . I'm very deep in trying to figure 00:03:35.574 --> 00:03:36.984 that out right now for myself. 00:03:37.404 --> 00:03:40.644 I, I had an idea of who I thought I was for quite a long 00:03:40.644 --> 00:03:43.254 time and now I'm not so sure. 00:03:44.334 --> 00:03:44.934 Who were you? 00:03:45.484 --> 00:03:49.144 well, short version was I grew up on a farm in Australia. 00:03:49.144 --> 00:03:50.464 Rode horses a lot as a kid. 00:03:52.084 --> 00:03:55.564 got, we, we, we showed quarter horses, you know, so we showed Western stuff. 00:03:55.564 --> 00:03:55.954 And I was a kid. 00:03:55.954 --> 00:03:57.154 I grew up riding in Pony Club. 00:03:57.154 --> 00:04:00.339 I started riding in pony club and, always had a fascination 00:04:00.399 --> 00:04:02.109 about the western lifestyle. 00:04:02.114 --> 00:04:05.139 You know, the, the horses, you know, the way the horses were in the 00:04:05.139 --> 00:04:06.369 western part of the United States. 00:04:07.059 --> 00:04:11.909 And, , I actually, when I was a teenager, I used to have this as the 00:04:11.909 --> 00:04:13.229 Australian Quarter Horse Association. 00:04:13.379 --> 00:04:16.889 Used to have this youth World Cup team and they would, every year there would 00:04:16.894 --> 00:04:22.439 be America, Canada, Germany, Italy, Hmm. 00:04:23.609 --> 00:04:27.539 New Zealand, Australia, and maybe one other European, oh, England 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:29.789 would have this youth World Cup team. 00:04:29.789 --> 00:04:32.154 And , that's something I wanted to do because the year I was gonna 00:04:32.154 --> 00:04:35.004 try out for it, it was gonna be in the United States and I was just 00:04:35.004 --> 00:04:36.384 fascinated by the United States. 00:04:36.389 --> 00:04:39.634 And so I went to the qualifying show. 00:04:40.539 --> 00:04:43.689 Speed everybody there and still didn't get picked on the team and 00:04:43.689 --> 00:04:45.729 was a little bit bitter about that. 00:04:45.729 --> 00:04:49.029 But I always, you know, wanted to go to America and learn 00:04:49.029 --> 00:04:51.489 about the horse stuff here. 00:04:51.489 --> 00:04:54.669 And so eventually I end up, when I left school, I worked in a bank, 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:58.179 but at the time they could, they would give you, they would give 00:04:58.179 --> 00:05:00.129 you a, a year's leave without pay. 00:05:00.129 --> 00:05:02.079 So you still have a job when you come back. 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:04.809 But if you were young and wanted to travel or whatever, they would, you know, it 00:05:04.809 --> 00:05:07.599 was a nationwide banking company bank. 00:05:08.259 --> 00:05:12.189 And so I took a years leave without pay, came to the US in the end of 1990. 00:05:12.189 --> 00:05:13.569 So I was here for most in 91. 00:05:14.619 --> 00:05:17.919 And , when I was leaving to go back to Australia, sorry, I got 00:05:17.919 --> 00:05:19.089 a job working for horse trainer. 00:05:19.569 --> 00:05:22.709 And , when I was leaving to go back to Australia, after about a year, 00:05:22.769 --> 00:05:25.359 we shook hands on the veranda and he said, , you know, if you wanna 00:05:25.359 --> 00:05:26.409 come back, I'll give you a job. 00:05:26.414 --> 00:05:28.319 He said, , you could do this for a living if you wanted to. 00:05:28.679 --> 00:05:31.919 And I'd never had any self-confidence at all. 00:05:31.919 --> 00:05:34.379 Like, pretty much none whatsoever. 00:05:35.159 --> 00:05:38.429 And so for him, you know, the only reason I actually came back was 00:05:38.429 --> 00:05:41.369 because he told me you could do this for a living if you wanted to. 00:05:41.369 --> 00:05:46.499 I never would have told myself you could do this for a living if you wanted to. 00:05:47.619 --> 00:05:50.379 , so it was, it was meeting, it was him saying that. 00:05:50.379 --> 00:05:53.479 And I'd met my wife Robin, who, you know, , I had met her in the 00:05:53.479 --> 00:05:55.159 meantime and I'd chased her all years. 00:05:55.159 --> 00:05:56.659 She ran like a scolded cat. 00:05:57.409 --> 00:06:01.404 And, , when I moved back to Australia, you know, Her, we didn't 00:06:01.404 --> 00:06:02.184 have the internet at the time. 00:06:02.184 --> 00:06:03.744 So when we moved back, I moved back to Australia. 00:06:03.744 --> 00:06:06.174 Her letters to me became a lot nicer. 00:06:06.174 --> 00:06:07.704 She actually missed me chasing her. 00:06:08.424 --> 00:06:10.794 And so there was that and the offer of a, a job. 00:06:10.794 --> 00:06:13.254 So I ended up, I was spent, I was home for six months and 00:06:13.254 --> 00:06:14.964 then came back six months later. 00:06:15.564 --> 00:06:16.734 Rupert Isaacson: I've got a couple of questions. 00:06:16.764 --> 00:06:20.754 So you grew up in a farm in Australia and to a lot of people 00:06:20.754 --> 00:06:25.734 that wouldn't be so very different to the lifestyle of the western. 00:06:25.734 --> 00:06:31.344 USA given that Australia's a a big place, lots of land, lots of freedom, a 00:06:31.344 --> 00:06:35.664 fairly expansive, optimistic worldview, , very much a horse based culture 00:06:35.664 --> 00:06:40.134 ranching, you know, working horses are very much part of the culture there. 00:06:40.524 --> 00:06:44.904 Why not stay within the Australian motif? 00:06:44.964 --> 00:06:45.294 Why 00:06:45.294 --> 00:06:46.194 Warwick Schiller: the western motif? 00:06:48.234 --> 00:06:48.564 You know? 00:06:48.564 --> 00:06:49.674 Well, that's a really good question. 00:06:49.724 --> 00:06:54.854 , my father, my father was a rodeo writer, so he wrote in rodeos, , did 00:06:54.854 --> 00:06:57.734 all the events, and we were always around that west and stuff. 00:06:57.734 --> 00:06:59.564 We weren't, you know, we weren't around a bunch of show jumpers 00:06:59.564 --> 00:07:00.764 or dressage people or whatever. 00:07:00.769 --> 00:07:06.584 So I think that was, you know, something that got ingrained in me early on, the 00:07:06.584 --> 00:07:07.784 fascination for that sort of thing. 00:07:08.144 --> 00:07:08.774 So it was an idea 00:07:08.774 --> 00:07:13.034 Rupert Isaacson: to go to thesource of the style of horsemanship that you were 00:07:13.634 --> 00:07:13.964 Warwick Schiller: immersed? 00:07:13.964 --> 00:07:14.594 Yeah, and I think so. 00:07:14.744 --> 00:07:19.094 And, and, and, you know, all the crucial monster come along with it, you know, the 00:07:19.334 --> 00:07:21.074 how they dress and all that sort of stuff. 00:07:21.074 --> 00:07:21.224 I, 00:07:21.264 --> 00:07:23.464 Rupert Isaacson: I But that's, you've got that and you've got that with the aie. 00:07:23.464 --> 00:07:24.224 Fascinating. 00:07:24.224 --> 00:07:26.894 You guys have the Crocodile Dundee hats and you've got the accent and you've 00:07:26.894 --> 00:07:31.484 got the swagger and you've got the, so I mean, you could, to the outside eye, you 00:07:31.484 --> 00:07:33.014 could sort of exchange one for the other. 00:07:33.524 --> 00:07:39.144 So what made, the Australian one not so cool just because it was known 00:07:39.149 --> 00:07:40.314 to you and therefore not exotic? 00:07:41.124 --> 00:07:44.154 Warwick Schiller: Yeah, I, I, it could be that I, I really have no 00:07:44.159 --> 00:07:47.164 idea and I've never really given that much thought, why it was that. 00:07:47.164 --> 00:07:49.944 But I, I was always fascinated, maybe it was watching Western 00:07:49.944 --> 00:07:51.744 movies on tv, you know, as a kid. 00:07:52.404 --> 00:07:52.644 Yeah, 00:07:53.304 --> 00:07:53.964 Rupert Isaacson: I could see that. 00:07:53.964 --> 00:07:57.834 , and then my second question there is, you talked about having almost 00:07:57.834 --> 00:08:02.844 no self-confidence, but you said that very quickly after talking about an 00:08:02.844 --> 00:08:05.574 initial, quite a lot of show success. 00:08:06.324 --> 00:08:10.324 So if you'd add all this show success with horses, quite early in your 00:08:10.324 --> 00:08:12.514 life, why the lack of self-confidence? 00:08:13.414 --> 00:08:14.194 Where did that come from? 00:08:15.694 --> 00:08:18.634 Warwick Schiller: I didn't, well, as a, you know, we showed horses 00:08:18.634 --> 00:08:21.844 as, as kids, and I had my older brother, he had all the show success. 00:08:21.849 --> 00:08:22.624 He won everything. 00:08:22.684 --> 00:08:29.164 You know, he was the, the whoop to do and yeah, I wasn't, I mean, I 00:08:29.164 --> 00:08:30.994 wasn't, wasn't Did you kill him? 00:08:31.114 --> 00:08:31.764 He's still around. 00:08:32.114 --> 00:08:33.684 He's still, he's still around you. 00:08:33.684 --> 00:08:34.295 He's still around. 00:08:35.914 --> 00:08:36.364 Yeah, no. 00:08:36.364 --> 00:08:40.744 And you know, I don't think I was, I'm, I, yeah, I did say that I won 00:08:40.744 --> 00:08:43.474 all the stuff at the qualify show or whatever, and I was okay, but not, no, 00:08:43.954 --> 00:08:49.054 I I wasn't a standout by any means, you know, I had a good horse that 00:08:49.054 --> 00:08:52.384 year, which is really, really helpful. 00:08:52.384 --> 00:08:56.634 But, you know, yeah, hadn't, didn't really have much self, self-confidence 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:58.744 about myself in any way, shape or form. 00:08:58.744 --> 00:08:59.944 Sir, would you say that deep 00:08:59.944 --> 00:09:02.914 Rupert Isaacson: down on some intuitive level that you did, because after 00:09:02.914 --> 00:09:08.554 all, you, you didn't stay working in the bank, you took a chance to 00:09:08.584 --> 00:09:11.494 go to the US to give it a, a go. 00:09:11.794 --> 00:09:15.454 , so there was a, a must have been a part of you that believed in 00:09:15.454 --> 00:09:17.044 yourself there, would you say or not? 00:09:18.454 --> 00:09:20.374 Warwick Schiller: You know what, there, there must be, but I think, 00:09:20.374 --> 00:09:25.114 you know, my parts were pretty fragmented to where, you know, I used 00:09:25.119 --> 00:09:29.044 to think I didn't have any intuition. 00:09:29.674 --> 00:09:33.034 you know, I spent a lot of time in my head, not so much in my body, but I, 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:39.184 but I, yeah, there all, all the, yeah, there's, there's, I, I think that's 00:09:39.634 --> 00:09:43.894 what must have been there was, I had some intuition I wasn't even aware of. 00:09:44.494 --> 00:09:44.704 Right. 00:09:44.734 --> 00:09:48.424 Or e either that or, you know, my give a shit was busted. 00:09:48.424 --> 00:09:50.494 Like, I just wanted to do what I wanted to do. 00:09:51.244 --> 00:09:54.964 Were there even too much thought as to the, as to the outcome of where is 00:09:54.964 --> 00:09:56.374 this gonna be in 20 years or whatever, 00:09:56.374 --> 00:09:56.524 Rupert Isaacson: you know? 00:09:56.554 --> 00:09:56.854 Indeed. 00:09:56.859 --> 00:09:59.334 But that takes a certain, , that takes a certain. 00:10:00.144 --> 00:10:04.824 Not just courage, but also it does, I think, take a certain innate intuition. 00:10:04.824 --> 00:10:08.664 And one of the things I liked that you just said were perhaps you were intuitive 00:10:08.664 --> 00:10:09.834 without knowing you were intuitive. 00:10:09.834 --> 00:10:12.954 And I, cuz I, I feel that describes actually a lot of people, you 00:10:12.954 --> 00:10:15.264 know, a lot of people say, oh, I, I, you know, I'm in my hair. 00:10:15.264 --> 00:10:17.874 I don't have intuition and I don't know if I buy that. 00:10:17.874 --> 00:10:23.214 I think everybody has intuition, but they're not necessarily trained to 00:10:23.214 --> 00:10:24.984 recognize it or value it perhaps. 00:10:24.989 --> 00:10:25.344 Would you? 00:10:25.854 --> 00:10:26.454 What do you think 00:10:26.754 --> 00:10:27.114 Warwick Schiller: to that? 00:10:27.654 --> 00:10:32.514 Yeah, not trained to recognize it, value it or even be aware of it, you know, 00:10:33.174 --> 00:10:35.244 how to listen to it, how to tap into it. 00:10:36.164 --> 00:10:40.724 and I'm only just, I think, get into that point these days. 00:10:40.724 --> 00:10:45.044 But I, I do, you know, I, I was very dissociated as a kid. 00:10:45.044 --> 00:10:48.164 I spent a lot of time all my life, spent a lot of time in my head. 00:10:48.464 --> 00:10:52.754 And so I think, you know, you said something about courage there minute 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:58.904 ago, and I've always thought that I wasn't, I wasn't courageous at all. 00:11:00.404 --> 00:11:04.574 And you know, you've just been, um, doing some things with Jane 00:11:04.574 --> 00:11:07.634 Pike and Jane was at our house. 00:11:07.664 --> 00:11:08.264 This is interesting. 00:11:08.269 --> 00:11:12.974 Jane was at our house, oh, possibly, I think it was, she came out for 00:11:12.979 --> 00:11:15.284 the Walter Question games, but I think it was the year after that. 00:11:16.334 --> 00:11:17.594 So it must have been 2019. 00:11:17.654 --> 00:11:21.104 And she was at our house and I had asked her, I said, have you 00:11:21.104 --> 00:11:22.874 ever seen that movie Free Solo? 00:11:23.564 --> 00:11:25.034 Have you seen a movie Free solo? 00:11:25.304 --> 00:11:26.714 Rupert Isaacson: I have not seen it, but I've heard much. 00:11:27.569 --> 00:11:29.309 Warwick Schiller: Okay, so you know, Alex hon, one of the world's 00:11:29.309 --> 00:11:34.169 best rock climbers, and he free solos, , El Capita in Yosemite, which 00:11:34.169 --> 00:11:36.419 is a 3000 foot shear granite cliff. 00:11:36.424 --> 00:11:37.679 And he climbs it with no ropes. 00:11:37.739 --> 00:11:41.359 And, , we were talking about that and Jane said to me, you know, the thing 00:11:41.359 --> 00:11:49.609 about Alex is he is fully aware that he could die any moment and he still does it. 00:11:49.669 --> 00:11:51.709 And I said, yeah, well, yeah, but it's not just him. 00:11:51.709 --> 00:11:53.329 I mean, there's a lot of people that free solo. 00:11:53.329 --> 00:11:54.799 She goes, yes. 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:59.209 But I think what they do is they dissociate from the fact they could 00:11:59.209 --> 00:12:00.709 die, and that's how they can do it. 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:07.969 Whereas Alex is fully aware and fully buys into, Hey, I could die doing this. 00:12:07.969 --> 00:12:09.349 He, it's not, he doesn't dissociate. 00:12:09.409 --> 00:12:11.629 I mean, he's fully aware of it and still does it. 00:12:11.689 --> 00:12:15.379 And that statement there to not be thinking for a number of years. 00:12:15.379 --> 00:12:17.629 And I think when you said, oh yeah, you were courageous, giving up your 00:12:17.629 --> 00:12:23.119 job, going to America, whatever, I think I was dissociated from the 00:12:23.119 --> 00:12:25.219 fact, what if this doesn't work? 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:28.789 I think I've always been quite dissociated from the fact of what 00:12:28.789 --> 00:12:35.899 if this doesn't work, which has allowed me to do things with no, no 00:12:35.904 --> 00:12:37.309 idea if it's gonna work or not. 00:12:37.309 --> 00:12:38.299 And still doing it. 00:12:38.429 --> 00:12:43.279 It might, and it might seem like bravery to some people, and maybe this is just my 00:12:43.309 --> 00:12:46.369 self-judgment of myself, but it might seem like bravery to some people, but it's not 00:12:46.369 --> 00:12:48.859 like I'm like, okay, I'm gonna try this. 00:12:49.609 --> 00:12:53.359 and I might be destitute living on the, on the street or it might 00:12:53.359 --> 00:12:55.039 work and I'm gonna do it anyway. 00:12:55.039 --> 00:13:00.019 I think I have dissociated from negative outcomes from things and that's how I've 00:13:00.019 --> 00:13:04.459 been able to kind of, you know, go with the flow of the universe and go, Hey, I'm, 00:13:04.464 --> 00:13:05.929 I'm gonna do whatever you present to me. 00:13:05.934 --> 00:13:11.169 But I do think it's, I've, I've, been pretty good at dissociating from the 00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:15.849 possibility of things going wrong and I, I'm, and I'm not sure if that's a, I'm 00:13:15.849 --> 00:13:18.099 not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I think that's what it is. 00:13:18.609 --> 00:13:20.859 Rupert Isaacson: Well, maybe, you know, I, I'm sure a lot of listeners 00:13:20.859 --> 00:13:22.539 will be pondering this right now. 00:13:22.539 --> 00:13:25.379 I mean, I think one of the things which, we are all, I think more impressed 00:13:25.379 --> 00:13:28.229 with each other than we are with ourselves, cuz we all know ourselves 00:13:28.229 --> 00:13:29.459 and we all know what, you know, idiots. 00:13:29.459 --> 00:13:32.819 We are cuz we remember ourselves, our younger versions, and we still 00:13:32.819 --> 00:13:35.639 see ourselves doing the same silly stuff and thinking the same silly 00:13:35.644 --> 00:13:37.439 stuff we always did and felt. 00:13:37.439 --> 00:13:43.219 However, I think that, , we often don't value our own forms of courage. 00:13:43.849 --> 00:13:45.679 I think we, we take those for granted. 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:49.609 So you saying this to me, I'm sitting here, you know, listening 00:13:49.609 --> 00:13:52.309 to it and thinking, well, yeah, but is that a bad thing? 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:56.029 I mean, if that, that just sounds to me like a different courage 00:13:56.034 --> 00:13:59.059 style rather than lack of courage. 00:13:59.159 --> 00:13:59.729 and 00:14:00.329 --> 00:14:01.819 Warwick Schiller: yes, but you are not the voice in my head. 00:14:02.229 --> 00:14:02.899 Ah, yes. 00:14:02.939 --> 00:14:04.829 Voice in my head tells me Totally different. 00:14:04.979 --> 00:14:05.369 That 00:14:05.374 --> 00:14:05.819 Rupert Isaacson: voice. 00:14:05.879 --> 00:14:06.359 Okay. 00:14:06.909 --> 00:14:08.584 So, , do you still have that voice? 00:14:09.154 --> 00:14:10.054 Warwick Schiller: Oh yeah, yeah. 00:14:11.424 --> 00:14:12.264 I'm, I'm, . Yeah. 00:14:12.269 --> 00:14:15.144 I'm coming to grips with that, with that voice. 00:14:15.144 --> 00:14:23.334 And I just recently had a, um, bit of a, not an out body journey, but a bit of a 00:14:23.339 --> 00:14:35.334 journey, you know, where I came to realize that that voice is not the real me. 00:14:35.584 --> 00:14:36.074 Yeah. 00:14:37.104 --> 00:14:45.924 And he's the, he's the, I dunno if I'm gonna call him the bad guy, but Yeah. 00:14:45.924 --> 00:14:49.494 It's like that guy's not the real me and the real, and, and you know, I've had 00:14:49.644 --> 00:14:53.004 for quite a long time, I've had these, you know, as I've been down this path 00:14:53.004 --> 00:14:59.124 of self-discovery or whatever, I keep on getting into deep places, I can't, 00:14:59.129 --> 00:15:02.634 I keep getting this feeling of, well, I've had this with like plant medicine. 00:15:02.724 --> 00:15:07.254 Uh, as well, I keep getting this feeling of, there's these others that I'm gonna 00:15:07.254 --> 00:15:12.834 have to answer to for all my, you know, failings and yada, and it's these others. 00:15:12.834 --> 00:15:18.564 And I, and I just occurred to me recently that these others, I've been 00:15:18.564 --> 00:15:22.314 scared of their, of the, the judgment or what they're gonna tell me or 00:15:22.714 --> 00:15:26.184 whatever, because there's gonna be a lot of scorn, whatever involved in it. 00:15:26.184 --> 00:15:28.344 I just occurred to me the other day, I believe that 00:15:28.434 --> 00:15:30.354 others is actually the true me. 00:15:31.194 --> 00:15:32.964 That is the. 00:15:33.894 --> 00:15:36.264 So it's not, it's, it kind of dawned on me. 00:15:36.264 --> 00:15:39.894 It's not something to be afraid of, like the opinions of whoever 00:15:39.894 --> 00:15:43.764 these others are going to be to tell me how I'm screwing shit up. 00:15:44.814 --> 00:15:49.434 I realized here recently that that's, I think that's actually the real me trying 00:15:49.434 --> 00:15:56.544 to get rid of all the, the shadow me you might say, or help get rid of him. 00:15:56.964 --> 00:15:59.544 Rupert Isaacson: Is the real you a critical voice or is the 00:15:59.544 --> 00:16:01.044 real you an encouraging voice? 00:16:01.794 --> 00:16:03.974 Warwick Schiller: Oh, I think it's gonna, I think it's gonna be an encouraging 00:16:03.979 --> 00:16:10.254 voice, but I think first it's gotta call me to task for a lot of different things. 00:16:10.254 --> 00:16:14.544 But it's, it's different than if I, I, for me at least, it's, I'm looking at 00:16:14.544 --> 00:16:21.624 it differently now then I just had this epiphany that I shouldn't be worried about 00:16:21.624 --> 00:16:26.334 these, these, this guy, this whatever this entity is, this knowledge, this 00:16:26.394 --> 00:16:29.784 energy, whatever it is that's gonna tell me all the things I'm doing wrong because 00:16:32.514 --> 00:16:40.434 that is me and, and, and, and this, you know, all the negative voices I have in 00:16:40.434 --> 00:16:41.904 my head these days is not actually me. 00:16:41.904 --> 00:16:43.644 It's gonna be trying to banish that I think. 00:16:45.264 --> 00:16:49.164 Rupert Isaacson: So let's just return to, you've gone back to America. 00:16:49.264 --> 00:16:51.054 , the good news is that, , Robin has. 00:16:51.714 --> 00:16:52.704 Run away completely. 00:16:53.164 --> 00:16:53.824 , there's a job now. 00:16:53.824 --> 00:16:56.254 Warwick Schiller: She slowed down when I got back , she allowed me to, she 00:16:56.254 --> 00:16:57.634 allowed me to catch her when I got back. 00:16:57.664 --> 00:17:00.814 Rupert Isaacson: Just, or at least, at least get one hand on the, on, on 00:17:00.814 --> 00:17:03.184 the, on, on the material of the sleeve? 00:17:03.504 --> 00:17:03.924 Yes. 00:17:03.924 --> 00:17:04.254 , yes. 00:17:04.254 --> 00:17:05.144 Yeah, yeah. 00:17:05.149 --> 00:17:08.154 Before being required to chase over the next mountain range. 00:17:08.664 --> 00:17:11.064 but tell us what happens then? 00:17:11.064 --> 00:17:14.034 You, you arrive here, you set up a life, then what? 00:17:15.634 --> 00:17:17.974 , Warwick Schiller: well, I went, I, I came back and I went back to work for 00:17:17.979 --> 00:17:19.624 that guy for another couple of years. 00:17:19.624 --> 00:17:22.594 And then Robin and I were gonna get married and I couldn't work for this 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:23.794 guy and be married at the same time. 00:17:23.794 --> 00:17:24.754 Rupert Isaacson: So why not? 00:17:24.814 --> 00:17:25.874 He, , he wanted to marry you? 00:17:26.624 --> 00:17:30.834 Warwick Schiller: No, he didn't wanna marry me, but he, , yeah. 00:17:30.864 --> 00:17:34.764 Rather imposing figure and you, you know, you're basically on 00:17:34.764 --> 00:17:36.594 call 24 hours a day sort of thing. 00:17:36.594 --> 00:17:38.244 So I was living there on the, on the place. 00:17:38.249 --> 00:17:38.384 Yeah. 00:17:38.389 --> 00:17:38.454 Yeah. 00:17:38.459 --> 00:17:41.754 That would not be a good, what, 00:17:41.754 --> 00:17:43.074 Rupert Isaacson: what state was that out of interest? 00:17:44.124 --> 00:17:47.904 Fear, , the state of fear. 00:17:48.384 --> 00:17:48.594 Right. 00:17:49.284 --> 00:17:53.394 Um, is that, is that the fear in the upper 40 above the lower 48 or 00:17:53.904 --> 00:17:56.154 Warwick Schiller: That's the fear over on the left, next to the, next 00:17:56.154 --> 00:17:57.444 to the pacification, California. 00:17:57.624 --> 00:17:57.774 Yeah. 00:17:57.774 --> 00:17:59.094 I've only ever lived here in California 00:17:59.154 --> 00:17:59.634 Rupert Isaacson: Pacific. 00:17:59.634 --> 00:17:59.874 Fear. 00:18:00.234 --> 00:18:00.504 Got it. 00:18:00.504 --> 00:18:00.924 Mm-hmm. 00:18:01.474 --> 00:18:02.304 . Um, okay. 00:18:02.309 --> 00:18:06.564 So you realize that with this particular trainer, you have to be all in. 00:18:07.164 --> 00:18:08.454 There's no other way. 00:18:08.454 --> 00:18:10.554 So you have to, you have to, to go. 00:18:10.554 --> 00:18:11.024 So what do you do? 00:18:11.874 --> 00:18:15.414 Warwick Schiller: Uh, I got a job working for some, some people who had, they 00:18:15.414 --> 00:18:19.434 had stallion and they were raising some horses and, and so I got a job working for 00:18:19.434 --> 00:18:21.269 them, , which means we were gonna move. 00:18:21.269 --> 00:18:22.559 So Robin had to get a new job. 00:18:23.219 --> 00:18:28.679 And, you know, the thing is, Robin has always been the breadwinner 00:18:28.679 --> 00:18:32.579 in our family as far as having the real job with the health insurance. 00:18:32.579 --> 00:18:35.399 As you know, health insurance in America is ridiculously expensive, 00:18:35.399 --> 00:18:38.459 you know, self-employed, you can't get health, health insurance very good. 00:18:39.209 --> 00:18:44.819 And, but, you know, Robin was into horses and so if you think about 00:18:45.239 --> 00:18:47.519 the business of training horses, 00:18:49.469 --> 00:18:50.579 Rupert Isaacson: not without its dangers. 00:18:50.639 --> 00:18:50.849 Yeah, 00:18:51.959 --> 00:18:52.199 Warwick Schiller: yeah. 00:18:52.199 --> 00:18:56.309 Not without its dangers, but, but, but because we're in business doing that. 00:18:56.549 --> 00:19:00.809 Think, think about, if you, let's say she, so Robin was in human resources. 00:19:00.814 --> 00:19:03.479 Let's say she's just a person who's in your human resources, but she wants 00:19:03.484 --> 00:19:04.619 to go to horse shows on the weekend. 00:19:04.619 --> 00:19:06.659 She's gonna buy horses and she's gotta buy a truck and she's gotta buy a trailer, 00:19:06.659 --> 00:19:08.999 she's gotta buy a s she's gotta buy some boots, she's gotta buy some brushes. 00:19:09.809 --> 00:19:14.009 All of that stuff comes out of your income after tax. 00:19:15.179 --> 00:19:18.749 Whereas I'm a horse trainer and, you know, she wants a truck and 00:19:18.749 --> 00:19:20.429 she wants a trailer and she wants a horse and she wants to sell. 00:19:20.609 --> 00:19:21.929 We can write all that stuff off. 00:19:21.929 --> 00:19:23.129 So it, it, 00:19:23.385 --> 00:19:27.615 it, you know, she was the main, she was the main breadwinner for a long 00:19:27.620 --> 00:19:34.215 time, but I, you know, her being that breadwinner kind of allowed me to follow. 00:19:35.025 --> 00:19:36.135 No sort of thing. 00:19:36.135 --> 00:19:40.125 Follow my interests sort of thing with no, , having to worry about 00:19:40.125 --> 00:19:42.435 the, the negative outcomes of that. 00:19:43.305 --> 00:19:46.545 Rupert Isaacson: And so, no, you, you say very gli. 00:19:46.550 --> 00:19:49.865 Well, I left and I got a job somewhere else, but I, , also lived, , in 00:19:49.865 --> 00:19:51.065 North America for many years. 00:19:51.070 --> 00:19:54.905 So, I know that just showing up in North America to work horses is not 00:19:54.905 --> 00:19:57.875 the same as having a work permit and a green card and that sort of thing. 00:19:57.875 --> 00:20:00.545 It took me quite a while to, get all that sorted. 00:20:01.005 --> 00:20:03.735 , did you get married right away or were you having to go under the table? 00:20:03.855 --> 00:20:04.275 Like many 00:20:04.275 --> 00:20:06.855 Warwick Schiller: of us, so, oh no, it's, I'd been under the table for, 00:20:07.755 --> 00:20:09.345 you know, the first three years. 00:20:09.345 --> 00:20:13.005 So then I was, , but we were married, so we got a, well, I had 00:20:13.005 --> 00:20:14.235 a green card by this point in time. 00:20:14.235 --> 00:20:17.655 And what's really interesting is if you ever seen that movie, green Card, anybody 00:20:17.655 --> 00:20:20.790 listening has seen that movie Green Card with, the French guy with the big nose. 00:20:20.790 --> 00:20:21.360 What's his name? 00:20:21.860 --> 00:20:23.380 Er wait. 00:20:24.450 --> 00:20:27.180 , it is just like that when you go, we used to be back then, at least when 00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:29.490 you go in for the interview, they want, you know, they separate you. 00:20:29.490 --> 00:20:31.530 They wanna know how does he have his coffee in the morning, what 00:20:31.530 --> 00:20:33.780 colors his toothbrush, which side of the bed did he sleep on? 00:20:33.780 --> 00:20:36.240 They're trying to really make sure that you're not marrying 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:39.000 for, , the wrong reason. 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:40.680 Just for the gr Yeah, just for the green card. 00:20:41.340 --> 00:20:41.610 Yeah. 00:20:42.870 --> 00:20:43.140 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:20:43.140 --> 00:20:43.980 I went through all that. 00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:44.430 I remember. 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:49.040 , and I, I, like you did many years, , under the table as a horse trainer, which 00:20:49.040 --> 00:20:52.820 of course is an immensely physically dangerous thing to do because if you 00:20:52.825 --> 00:20:54.950 take a wreck, , well, you, there is no. 00:20:55.790 --> 00:20:56.120 Care. 00:20:56.360 --> 00:21:00.320 And it's interesting, I'm sure you have this, I look back at the risks 00:21:00.320 --> 00:21:03.520 I took, , you know, I was doing jumping horses and I've, and I was 00:21:03.520 --> 00:21:05.690 falling off them, , as you do gravity. 00:21:06.320 --> 00:21:10.635 And, , it didn't occur to me, , perhaps cuz I grew up in England with the 00:21:10.635 --> 00:21:14.775 national health, perhaps because I like you, I disassociated or whatever. 00:21:14.775 --> 00:21:20.325 It didn't occur to me what could happen if I took a wreck beyond a certain point. 00:21:20.775 --> 00:21:22.935 Did you ever have that worry? 00:21:22.935 --> 00:21:24.195 Or did again, did you just push 00:21:24.195 --> 00:21:24.945 Warwick Schiller: that out of your mind? 00:21:26.085 --> 00:21:29.415 No, I don't think I ever, ever considered it. 00:21:29.415 --> 00:21:32.505 You know, I've always been healthy, never go to doctors, whatever. 00:21:32.505 --> 00:21:35.925 So it wasn't like, you know, that was something I really, 00:21:35.925 --> 00:21:37.245 really concerned about actually. 00:21:37.250 --> 00:21:37.695 When horses 00:21:37.695 --> 00:21:40.725 Rupert Isaacson: jump on, you smash you against walls, stomp you. 00:21:41.175 --> 00:21:41.355 Yeah. 00:21:41.565 --> 00:21:42.285 And otherwise 00:21:43.125 --> 00:21:43.965 Warwick Schiller: send you to the doctor 00:21:45.855 --> 00:21:45.975 Yeah. 00:21:45.975 --> 00:21:47.535 Or you just kind of soldier on whatever. 00:21:47.805 --> 00:21:48.195 Indeed. 00:21:48.455 --> 00:21:51.555 Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so you're soldiering on, you're a horse 00:21:51.555 --> 00:21:53.505 trainer now, you're married to Robin. 00:21:53.875 --> 00:21:57.295 , you're, both of you showing, you're, you're both competing. 00:21:57.925 --> 00:21:58.045 Mm-hmm. 00:21:58.235 --> 00:21:59.430 , you've got a horse training business. 00:21:59.460 --> 00:21:59.790 Okay. 00:21:59.790 --> 00:22:01.800 She's got a quote unquote real job. 00:22:01.800 --> 00:22:04.020 But you're clearly doing this together. 00:22:04.020 --> 00:22:08.160 You're clearly building an equestrian endeavor together. 00:22:09.360 --> 00:22:10.290 How does this plan out? 00:22:10.290 --> 00:22:11.190 What, what happens next? 00:22:12.100 --> 00:22:14.800 , Warwick Schiller: well, I was really interested in the raining at the, you 00:22:14.800 --> 00:22:17.620 know, that's where I came to America, wanted to learn about raining horses. 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:21.950 and so we, and initially I had to take whatever, oh, sorry. 00:22:21.950 --> 00:22:24.500 I worked for those people for a year, and then we decided to move 00:22:24.500 --> 00:22:27.500 down to where her parents live, where we are right now, actually. 00:22:28.160 --> 00:22:32.270 And so then I went out on my own, like I'm training for the public and I wasn't, 00:22:32.330 --> 00:22:37.430 I wasn't ready to, you're out my own training for the public, but I did anyway. 00:22:37.430 --> 00:22:40.490 And the, you know, the thing is when I, the trainer I worked for, 00:22:40.670 --> 00:22:46.685 he only competed at the highest levels of say the, the reigning. 00:22:47.540 --> 00:22:48.860 And so that's all I knew. 00:22:50.810 --> 00:22:54.170 And so when I first started training, I started training outta this, this 00:22:54.170 --> 00:22:55.820 public boarding facility thing. 00:22:55.820 --> 00:22:58.550 And there was a trainer there and I was thinking, oh my 00:22:58.550 --> 00:22:59.600 goodness, there's a trainer. 00:23:00.080 --> 00:23:02.840 I'm gonna learn so much watching this guy ride and just being around him, I'll 00:23:02.840 --> 00:23:04.280 be out asking questions and whatever. 00:23:05.390 --> 00:23:09.710 And when I saw this guy who's a trainer, he's a, he's a professional trainer. 00:23:10.280 --> 00:23:14.450 And when I saw how he was with horses, I'm like, this guy's useless. 00:23:14.450 --> 00:23:17.810 And then what I realized what was there is old sorts of levels of trainers 00:23:17.810 --> 00:23:19.880 because there's no regulation of it. 00:23:20.090 --> 00:23:23.090 You can hang your shingle out and say, I'm a horse trainer, and I'd only ever been 00:23:23.095 --> 00:23:26.180 exposed to the ones at the upper levels. 00:23:26.180 --> 00:23:27.680 I thought that was the only level there was. 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:30.300 I didn't realize there was all these levels and. 00:23:31.190 --> 00:23:34.850 You know, people can spend all their life being a horse trainer in an area, and 00:23:34.850 --> 00:23:38.210 they go to the little local show that's on once every two weeks or a month or 00:23:38.210 --> 00:23:41.420 whatever, and they take their clients there and they never get any better. 00:23:41.420 --> 00:23:42.560 They don't want to get any better. 00:23:44.330 --> 00:23:49.250 I, I didn't realize that, that that was an actual, that was an actual thing. 00:23:49.250 --> 00:23:51.500 So that was a, you know, that was a bit of a, an eye-opener. 00:23:51.500 --> 00:23:52.372 But anyway, so I open it. 00:23:52.372 --> 00:23:59.750 But anyway, so I, my, , in-laws gave me a wheeling or a yearling, that 00:23:59.750 --> 00:24:03.260 they got from a friend of theirs for my, sorry, our wedding present. 00:24:03.265 --> 00:24:04.610 Rupert Isaacson: Robin's family were also horsey. 00:24:05.180 --> 00:24:05.840 Warwick Schiller: Yes, yes. 00:24:05.840 --> 00:24:07.760 Mom, mum's, Robin's, mum's family were horsey. 00:24:07.760 --> 00:24:07.910 Yeah. 00:24:08.210 --> 00:24:13.000 and so we got this, I think it's a wining or yearling, but end up, you know, as he 00:24:13.005 --> 00:24:15.310 was, when he was old enough, I trained him and showed him in the reigning. 00:24:15.310 --> 00:24:19.390 And he was, he was the first raining horse I had to where I could go to 00:24:19.390 --> 00:24:21.040 horse shows with a, with a horse. 00:24:21.040 --> 00:24:23.860 And so people started seeing me compete on this horse and like, do good. 00:24:23.860 --> 00:24:27.370 So then I slowly started getting clients from the area who wanted to 00:24:27.370 --> 00:24:29.950 get into the raining or have a horse trained a certain way or whatever. 00:24:29.950 --> 00:24:31.330 And, and it built up from there. 00:24:31.335 --> 00:24:36.920 And by the, we got married in 94 and by about 99 I was, , I 00:24:37.110 --> 00:24:38.150 just had raining horses. 00:24:38.150 --> 00:24:38.690 That's all I had. 00:24:39.043 --> 00:24:40.033 So that's, you know, I was, 00:24:40.903 --> 00:24:44.383 Rupert Isaacson: I'm just gonna interject for people who are listening who do not 00:24:44.383 --> 00:24:48.223 know what raining is, and there may be some raining, is, you could say the, the 00:24:48.613 --> 00:24:51.763 dressage of Western riding to some degree. 00:24:51.823 --> 00:24:56.593 Um, it's the finer riding of, of patterns rather than roping cows 00:24:57.073 --> 00:24:59.208 or, riding the rodeo events. 00:24:59.208 --> 00:25:01.908 Would you, would you say that that's more or less accurate? 00:25:02.008 --> 00:25:05.098 Warwick, just for those listeners who might not be f fully 00:25:05.098 --> 00:25:06.118 familiar with what raining is. 00:25:06.898 --> 00:25:07.168 Warwick Schiller: Yeah. 00:25:07.168 --> 00:25:09.208 It's, I mean, one other way that I describe it is like 00:25:09.268 --> 00:25:10.438 ice skating on horseback. 00:25:11.488 --> 00:25:11.818 Okay. 00:25:12.668 --> 00:25:14.978 but yeah, cross between dress ice and ice skating 00:25:14.978 --> 00:25:16.479 Rupert Isaacson: and horseback the horse. 00:25:16.568 --> 00:25:18.668 And, and the horse has no problem keeping the skates on. 00:25:18.768 --> 00:25:19.998 they don't wobble through the anchor. 00:25:20.028 --> 00:25:21.558 Warwick Schiller: Oh, we've gotta strap, strap the skates on. 00:25:21.558 --> 00:25:21.948 Pretty tight. 00:25:21.953 --> 00:25:22.918 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:25:22.918 --> 00:25:24.048 Rupert Isaacson: Horses on ice. 00:25:24.818 --> 00:25:25.178 , okay. 00:25:25.178 --> 00:25:26.528 So now you're doing quite well. 00:25:26.528 --> 00:25:27.698 You've got a, a decent horse. 00:25:27.698 --> 00:25:31.088 You're attracting clients and you're away, you're, you're, you're good. 00:25:31.208 --> 00:25:32.978 why not just stop there? 00:25:32.978 --> 00:25:35.138 Why not just be a horse trainer? 00:25:37.328 --> 00:25:41.718 Warwick Schiller: Well, my son was, , so the, when my, you've met my son 00:25:41.718 --> 00:25:45.928 Tyler, , when Tyler was in kindergarten, we homeschooled him and we were 00:25:45.928 --> 00:25:47.218 traveling all over the United States. 00:25:47.218 --> 00:25:50.608 We drove from this coast to the west, the east coast, showing horses. 00:25:51.568 --> 00:25:54.688 And, but then we thought, no, he's not getting socialized the way he should. 00:25:54.688 --> 00:25:57.238 So he, you know, he needs to go to a, a real school. 00:25:58.028 --> 00:26:00.668 , but, and then we got thinking, you know what, the better you get at this 00:26:00.673 --> 00:26:03.878 horse training camper, especially with horse shows and stuff, the more 00:26:03.883 --> 00:26:08.793 you're gone, and I'm not sure that is, is, something we want for Tyler. 00:26:08.823 --> 00:26:15.663 And so we actually, during, this is during 2003, this is, 00:26:15.813 --> 00:26:16.863 this is how the universe works. 00:26:16.863 --> 00:26:21.993 During 2003, we actually flew back to Australia to my hometown, looking 00:26:21.993 --> 00:26:23.793 at opening a subway sandwich shop. 00:26:23.798 --> 00:26:27.093 I know nothing about retail or subway sandwiches or whatever, but we thought 00:26:27.303 --> 00:26:28.863 that's a franchise we could get into. 00:26:28.863 --> 00:26:31.443 We could just have a regular lifestyle, blah, blah, blah, blah. 00:26:31.653 --> 00:26:36.843 Anyway, we, we flew back there and it, you know, I contacted Subway and it turns 00:26:36.843 --> 00:26:41.763 out that the town that I grew up in, that my family lives in, didn't have a 00:26:41.763 --> 00:26:43.593 subway, salmon shop, hadn't ever had one. 00:26:43.893 --> 00:26:49.293 And then the day before I called Subway, someone had got the 00:26:49.803 --> 00:26:51.933 franchise for that particular town. 00:26:52.653 --> 00:26:52.953 Okay? 00:26:52.953 --> 00:26:55.083 So we TRAs we come back to America. 00:26:55.083 --> 00:26:56.983 So I had this client who, , was. 00:26:57.943 --> 00:26:59.053 Silicon Valley headhunt. 00:26:59.083 --> 00:27:01.903 He was at one point in time, he was the biggest headhunter in Silicon Valley. 00:27:01.903 --> 00:27:04.603 So he was an IT executive recruiter, okay. 00:27:04.603 --> 00:27:08.863 And he would like, he's, he's the guy that introduced Tim Cook to 00:27:08.863 --> 00:27:10.453 Steve Jobs to take over Apple. 00:27:10.993 --> 00:27:13.273 Okay, guy's name's Rick Devine, really cool guy. 00:27:13.453 --> 00:27:16.183 And his wife was a client of mine, wife and daughter to a clients of mine. 00:27:16.933 --> 00:27:22.588 And so about, October that year, so I think it was in about July 00:27:22.588 --> 00:27:24.508 that we went back to Australia, about October that year. 00:27:25.078 --> 00:27:28.498 Rick calls me one day and I knew they were building this big fancy facility 00:27:28.498 --> 00:27:30.118 over on the coast near Santa Cruz. 00:27:30.538 --> 00:27:33.918 Rick calls me one day and he said, , Hey Vicky, so his wife's name is Vicky. 00:27:33.923 --> 00:27:39.438 He said, Vicky's looking for, do you know of any old, you know, horse trainers 00:27:39.438 --> 00:27:44.478 who are retired now, who are older, who, you know, don't really want to compete 00:27:44.478 --> 00:27:46.968 anymore, but they, they want a job. 00:27:47.108 --> 00:27:49.368 What, what Vicky would like to have as a private horse trainer. 00:27:50.708 --> 00:27:55.628 and you know, but they've gotta be of a certain level and a 00:27:55.628 --> 00:27:56.858 certain mindset and stuff. 00:27:56.858 --> 00:27:58.088 And I said to Rick, you know what? 00:27:58.088 --> 00:28:04.208 I don't know anybody that worked for that because anyone who's qualified 00:28:04.208 --> 00:28:06.998 for the job is not looking for the job and anybody who wants that 00:28:06.998 --> 00:28:08.378 job is not qualified for the job. 00:28:09.488 --> 00:28:11.888 Cuz he had said an older guy who's, you know, towards the 00:28:11.888 --> 00:28:12.848 end of his career or whatever. 00:28:13.748 --> 00:28:17.218 And I said, but I'll keep an eye out for you, sw it off the phone with Rick. 00:28:17.218 --> 00:28:22.408 And all of a sudden it hit me like, hang on, that could be an opportunity for. 00:28:23.983 --> 00:28:29.113 Because Vicky is a very, very particular about how horses are trained and 00:28:29.113 --> 00:28:30.193 treated and all that sort of stuff. 00:28:30.193 --> 00:28:31.723 And not, not a lot of people would fit that job. 00:28:31.723 --> 00:28:34.933 I'm like, that, that might work for me. 00:28:34.933 --> 00:28:36.853 And Robin was actually in Columbus, Ohio. 00:28:36.853 --> 00:28:39.643 So for you guys not from America, that's on the other side of 00:28:39.643 --> 00:28:40.543 the country from where we live. 00:28:40.548 --> 00:28:41.383 She was at a horse show there. 00:28:41.383 --> 00:28:43.273 And I, I called her and I told her and I said, well, you 00:28:43.273 --> 00:28:44.293 thinking, she says, call him back. 00:28:45.613 --> 00:28:48.703 So I called Rick back and I said, Hey, I actually, I'd be interested in that. 00:28:49.813 --> 00:28:53.573 And so we ended up, I went to work for Rick and Vicky for 00:28:53.573 --> 00:28:56.333 three years, 2004, 2005, 2006. 00:28:56.333 --> 00:29:00.893 So I, I'd had, I had a, a barn with like 20 regular clients, 00:29:00.893 --> 00:29:02.153 you know, 20 horses in training. 00:29:02.693 --> 00:29:06.053 Cuz over here with like, say with the rainy a horse stays 00:29:06.053 --> 00:29:06.983 in training with the trainer. 00:29:06.983 --> 00:29:10.733 It's not like you send a horse for 30 days and it goes home or whatever. 00:29:10.733 --> 00:29:12.263 They, they stay with the trainer, you know. 00:29:12.263 --> 00:29:16.733 So I had these, I had about 20 horses in training full-time and I'd had a 00:29:16.733 --> 00:29:18.503 young fellow work for me for five years. 00:29:18.503 --> 00:29:20.813 And, and I'd got to the point where I said to him, you know what? 00:29:22.493 --> 00:29:25.433 I can, I've taught you what I know, but you need to go to Texas and with 00:29:25.438 --> 00:29:29.933 one of the big raining trainers, you know, what I am good at is getting 00:29:29.933 --> 00:29:32.153 the best out of average horses. 00:29:32.873 --> 00:29:34.913 But those guys don't deal with average horses. 00:29:34.913 --> 00:29:36.953 They only deal with the best horses. 00:29:36.953 --> 00:29:39.593 And there's a whole different way of going about things. 00:29:39.998 --> 00:29:40.628 Doing that. 00:29:41.018 --> 00:29:41.828 So I'd sent him off. 00:29:41.828 --> 00:29:43.538 Well anyway, I had to call him and say, Hey, do you wanna 00:29:43.538 --> 00:29:44.618 come back and take over here? 00:29:44.618 --> 00:29:47.108 Because what I didn't wanna do was leave all these, a lot of the people that 00:29:47.108 --> 00:29:50.138 I had as clients weren't interested in the ranching in the first place. 00:29:50.143 --> 00:29:51.308 They just started coming for lessons. 00:29:51.313 --> 00:29:52.988 And then they saw the horses, like, I'd like to try that. 00:29:52.988 --> 00:29:55.808 And said to all these clients, I feel felt like I couldn't 00:29:55.813 --> 00:29:57.278 leave him to hang out to drive. 00:29:57.283 --> 00:30:02.468 So I had this young fellow come back and took over and we went over to, and we 00:30:02.468 --> 00:30:03.638 worked for the Divines for three years. 00:30:03.638 --> 00:30:08.258 And it was great because I could, I could drop Tyler off at school in the morning. 00:30:09.128 --> 00:30:13.328 You know, I had basically, I was my own boss, you know, I had a eight stall barn 00:30:13.328 --> 00:30:16.118 that cost a million dollars to build, had copper gutters and downspouts, 00:30:16.123 --> 00:30:17.438 and was, was designed by an architect. 00:30:17.588 --> 00:30:18.548 And, you know, I was all beautiful. 00:30:19.088 --> 00:30:22.208 So I dropped Tyler off, right horses, and then I'd go and pick him up from 00:30:22.208 --> 00:30:24.938 school, bring him out to the ranch, and he'd ride the quad around or shoot 00:30:24.943 --> 00:30:26.378 the BB gun or whatever he would do. 00:30:26.378 --> 00:30:28.028 So we spent lots of time together. 00:30:28.868 --> 00:30:34.148 But what was funny was, uh, couple of years after working for him, we having 00:30:34.148 --> 00:30:35.288 dinner one night, having a few drinks. 00:30:35.288 --> 00:30:37.478 And Rick said to me, remember that day I called you? 00:30:37.698 --> 00:30:39.788 And, and uh, I said, yeah. 00:30:39.848 --> 00:30:42.518 And he said, soon as I got off the phone, I turned to Vicky 00:30:42.523 --> 00:30:43.748 and I said, yeah, I got him. 00:30:46.268 --> 00:30:49.988 I didn't even know you were, I didn't even know you were, were, were head hunting. 00:30:49.988 --> 00:30:50.228 Me. 00:30:50.768 --> 00:30:51.578 He's that good. 00:30:51.578 --> 00:30:53.918 Like he, he didn't ask me. 00:30:53.918 --> 00:30:57.428 He asked if I knew of anybody who might be, and somehow his intuition let him 00:30:57.428 --> 00:30:59.408 know that I might be available to that. 00:30:59.408 --> 00:30:59.708 So, 00:30:59.948 --> 00:31:00.758 Rupert Isaacson: interesting. 00:31:01.748 --> 00:31:05.048 Did you, she worked for the, did you ever, um, go to him for 00:31:05.048 --> 00:31:06.818 masterclass in intuition at that? 00:31:07.783 --> 00:31:10.223 Warwick Schiller: No, he wouldn't have known, I wouldn't known what intuition was 00:31:10.223 --> 00:31:11.843 if you've bitten him the ass back then. 00:31:11.893 --> 00:31:12.413 Mm-hmm. 00:31:12.583 --> 00:31:17.723 . Um, so after three years of working for them, then Vicki decided, no, 00:31:17.963 --> 00:31:20.033 I might, I might wanna move to Colorado and live in the snow. 00:31:20.123 --> 00:31:23.423 And so I was gonna have to do something different. 00:31:23.423 --> 00:31:26.453 And we weren't very far from, you know, we're probably half an hour drive from 00:31:26.453 --> 00:31:27.713 more, it had been training horses. 00:31:27.773 --> 00:31:33.233 And I kind of felt like it wasn't fair for me to move back to the area 00:31:33.383 --> 00:31:36.593 that I was in before and then steal all my old clients back off the guard 00:31:36.593 --> 00:31:37.943 that had given these clients to. 00:31:38.513 --> 00:31:41.783 And so we decided, and this is another one of those things, I didn't think 00:31:41.903 --> 00:31:46.133 the, the negative possibilities, but I said, why don't we move to Australia? 00:31:47.033 --> 00:31:48.233 Why don't we move back to Australia? 00:31:49.013 --> 00:31:49.493 You know? 00:31:50.273 --> 00:31:53.303 Um, we'd done okay a little bit in the real estate market here, like, come on. 00:31:53.303 --> 00:31:56.183 We moved back to Australia, you know, Australia's cheap place to live, and 00:31:56.183 --> 00:31:58.493 we bought two quarter horse stallions. 00:31:58.493 --> 00:31:59.813 We thought I'll go the breeding business. 00:32:00.623 --> 00:32:03.743 And we moved back to Australia and we were there for four years. 00:32:03.743 --> 00:32:06.143 After three and a half years Rob and said, you know what? 00:32:06.443 --> 00:32:07.133 I wanna move home. 00:32:08.003 --> 00:32:13.913 And so she moved back, like in the middle of 2010 and Tyler and I stayed 00:32:13.913 --> 00:32:18.803 on to sell whatever horses and cars and houses and whatever house we had. 00:32:19.223 --> 00:32:20.213 Tyler is how old by now? 00:32:21.263 --> 00:32:23.213 Tyler was 14 when we moved back. 00:32:23.363 --> 00:32:25.913 So we was like, he was there from 10 to 14. 00:32:26.693 --> 00:32:30.173 Uh, so we moved there with a 40 foot container, two horses, 00:32:30.178 --> 00:32:34.283 two dogs, and came back with a 20 foot container and two dogs. 00:32:34.943 --> 00:32:35.433 Okay. 00:32:36.368 --> 00:32:37.478 And sold the horses while we're there. 00:32:37.628 --> 00:32:40.118 And then, and this is where life takes a turn. 00:32:40.838 --> 00:32:45.788 I was, when we were there, uh, we were both on the board of the, the 00:32:45.788 --> 00:32:47.438 Reigning Association in Australia. 00:32:47.438 --> 00:32:48.458 It's called Raining Australia. 00:32:48.548 --> 00:32:53.408 And we were at a board meeting and in about 2000 and maybe 00:32:53.413 --> 00:32:55.478 seven, eight, something like that. 00:32:56.078 --> 00:32:59.678 And they said, E so Equator is the biggest horse expo in Australia. 00:32:59.678 --> 00:33:04.898 It's a different company than the Ecut in Germany, but still it's called Equator. 00:33:04.898 --> 00:33:06.248 It's the biggest horse expo in Australia. 00:33:06.248 --> 00:33:09.098 And, and we were at a board meeting and they read out some 00:33:09.098 --> 00:33:12.278 correspondence that Equator had asked, could somebody come down and do a 00:33:12.283 --> 00:33:14.648 raining demonstration at Equator? 00:33:15.248 --> 00:33:16.958 And I said, yeah, well, I'm probably the closest. 00:33:16.958 --> 00:33:18.758 I was only about eight hours away from there. 00:33:18.758 --> 00:33:23.318 You know, some of the people on the board were 24 hours drive from where Equator is. 00:33:23.318 --> 00:33:24.818 It's in Melbourne at the bottom of Australia. 00:33:25.928 --> 00:33:28.238 And so I said, yeah, I'll, I'll go to do a bit of a demo. 00:33:28.868 --> 00:33:30.578 And then Equian contacted you. 00:33:30.608 --> 00:33:34.388 They have one of those, you know, those cult starting competitions like one in 00:33:34.388 --> 00:33:36.578 America that's called Road to the Horse. 00:33:36.578 --> 00:33:37.658 This one's called Way the Horse. 00:33:37.658 --> 00:33:39.908 And they wanted to know, would I, seeing I was coming down, would I 00:33:39.913 --> 00:33:43.958 be the inner arena commentator, like the color commentator for this col 00:33:43.958 --> 00:33:46.058 starting competition, like say Sure. 00:33:46.868 --> 00:33:49.568 And so that's the one of the main attractions there. 00:33:49.568 --> 00:33:52.838 The stadium there is full of people, so there's like three or 4,000 people 00:33:52.838 --> 00:33:54.248 in there every day watching this thing. 00:33:54.248 --> 00:33:57.428 And I get to stand and talk on the microphone for a couple of hours 00:33:58.358 --> 00:34:01.418 in front of a crowd of big crowd of people for like three days in a row. 00:34:02.508 --> 00:34:03.368 and I was just helping it out. 00:34:03.398 --> 00:34:04.358 You know, they asked me to do it. 00:34:04.508 --> 00:34:09.758 There was no, um, plan to do anything with that. 00:34:09.818 --> 00:34:12.548 Anyway, after that, I had people start call me up saying, Hey, we 00:34:12.548 --> 00:34:16.868 like the way you, um, we like the way you explained things at, at Ecut. 00:34:16.873 --> 00:34:18.758 Would you like to come up and do a clinic for us? 00:34:18.758 --> 00:34:20.888 I'm like, well, I hadn't ever really thought of doing 00:34:20.888 --> 00:34:22.328 clinics, but yeah, why not? 00:34:23.018 --> 00:34:26.108 And so I started doing clinics and so I did clinics, quite a lot of clinics. 00:34:26.168 --> 00:34:27.668 The last few years I was in Australia. 00:34:27.673 --> 00:34:32.138 So when we moved back to the us, Robin got her old job in HR back, uh, we 00:34:32.138 --> 00:34:35.858 moved back to the US and I've gotta start all over again, all over again. 00:34:36.818 --> 00:34:40.388 And I, um, you know, I started getting in problem, horses, 00:34:40.388 --> 00:34:41.468 problem, warm bloods, whatever. 00:34:42.218 --> 00:34:46.538 And I started videoing them and making these little videos on YouTube, because 00:34:46.538 --> 00:34:52.508 what I had seen from the clinics was that, oh, there's some very basic premises about 00:34:52.508 --> 00:34:56.498 horses that people don't understand and it causes them all sorts of problems. 00:34:56.498 --> 00:35:00.188 And if they understood these basic things that have a lot less trouble. 00:35:00.188 --> 00:35:02.108 So I started making these little videos, putting 'em on Facebook. 00:35:02.318 --> 00:35:05.618 Facebook had just really started a couple of years before that and 00:35:06.638 --> 00:35:11.918 YouTube, and they, people were liking them and people wanted, they 00:35:11.918 --> 00:35:13.148 said, can you do longer videos? 00:35:13.148 --> 00:35:14.318 Like show us more stuff? 00:35:14.318 --> 00:35:18.878 Well, at the time, YouTube would only allow you to put a 10 minute 00:35:18.878 --> 00:35:22.508 clip on unless you had a certain number of views on your channel. 00:35:23.123 --> 00:35:26.153 And so I couldn't put longer videos on YouTube. 00:35:26.153 --> 00:35:29.783 And so I found a video hosting site that would host my videos, but they 00:35:29.783 --> 00:35:32.483 wanted to charge me 300 bucks a month to put the videos on there. 00:35:33.203 --> 00:35:36.803 And so then I had to start charging for the videos just because otherwise 00:35:36.803 --> 00:35:38.213 I was gonna be losing money doing it. 00:35:38.573 --> 00:35:39.803 And that took off. 00:35:39.863 --> 00:35:44.993 And that's my main business these days is, you know, this online video library I had. 00:35:44.993 --> 00:35:48.293 But it all started out that there was no plan to monetize it. 00:35:48.803 --> 00:35:52.043 There was no plan to monetize going to Ecut and talking in 00:35:52.043 --> 00:35:53.093 front of all those people. 00:35:53.243 --> 00:35:54.983 There was no plan to turn that into clinics. 00:35:55.523 --> 00:36:00.113 There was no plan to monetize the, the videos. 00:36:00.113 --> 00:36:03.893 And I was listening to a Tony Robbins podcast a few years ago where he was 00:36:03.893 --> 00:36:07.523 talking about, he's like, there's seven things you've gotta, you know what Tony 00:36:07.523 --> 00:36:08.543 Robbins like, he's pretty out there. 00:36:08.903 --> 00:36:13.463 There's seven things you have to do in life that makes life perfect or whatever. 00:36:13.463 --> 00:36:16.673 And there was, he said, there's the first five things and once you get through 00:36:16.678 --> 00:36:19.703 those, then the next one, there's two left, and then the next one, the sixth 00:36:19.703 --> 00:36:22.073 one, this is the hard one for most people. 00:36:22.253 --> 00:36:26.363 And that is giving with no thought of anything coming back from that. 00:36:27.203 --> 00:36:33.383 And if you can do that, you will be given more than you've ever could have imagined. 00:36:33.383 --> 00:36:37.913 And it's kind of like, that's kind of what's happened here is, um, 00:36:38.753 --> 00:36:41.873 you know, there was no plan to monetize anything, any of those two 00:36:41.873 --> 00:36:45.623 givings, the going to e equitana and helping people understand things. 00:36:45.628 --> 00:36:47.063 And then putting these videos on YouTube. 00:36:47.068 --> 00:36:49.973 I was just putting videos on YouTube because I thought there was. 00:36:52.283 --> 00:36:54.923 You know, it's some misunderstandings about horses that people were having 00:36:54.923 --> 00:36:57.593 that I'd like to help them with, so they're not having as much problems. 00:36:57.593 --> 00:37:00.863 But there was no plan to monetize that at all. 00:37:01.463 --> 00:37:07.013 And then, you know, the, that thing after a few years took off to where I was 00:37:07.018 --> 00:37:10.493 spending, you know, I was doing clinics, I was flying around the road doing clinics, 00:37:10.498 --> 00:37:13.673 had horses and training, had to go working for me, helping those, keeping those going 00:37:13.673 --> 00:37:16.403 while I was away, had the video thing. 00:37:16.403 --> 00:37:19.523 And one time I came back from a trip and I'm thinking when I get back from a 00:37:19.523 --> 00:37:23.243 trip, I'm at the barn seven days a week, uh, six days a week, training horses, 00:37:24.293 --> 00:37:26.153 and that's making about 10% of my money. 00:37:26.333 --> 00:37:29.513 Why am I spending 90% of my time making 10% of my money? 00:37:29.543 --> 00:37:30.803 Tyler wants to go to college. 00:37:30.803 --> 00:37:35.063 You have to pay for college, you know, and so then I made the decision to not 00:37:35.063 --> 00:37:40.313 train horses anymore and just focus on the, the clinics and the, uh, the videos. 00:37:40.313 --> 00:37:43.493 And then a few years, I don't know how many years after that, but not many years 00:37:43.493 --> 00:37:50.363 after that, Robin said, you need, you need help with running this thing that's came. 00:37:50.363 --> 00:37:53.933 So she quit HR and then, so she's, you know, she came 00:37:53.933 --> 00:37:56.393 in, no, me, and here we are. 00:37:57.323 --> 00:37:59.363 Rupert Isaacson: Well, this isn't quite where we are. 00:37:59.603 --> 00:38:01.433 , this is where I think we were. 00:38:02.463 --> 00:38:03.093 , this is where we were 00:38:03.453 --> 00:38:04.413 Warwick Schiller: at this point in the story. 00:38:04.683 --> 00:38:05.013 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:38:05.353 --> 00:38:10.723 , so for those of you again, who are just gonna fill in a couple 00:38:10.723 --> 00:38:14.593 of gaps here, if you're not horsey, , Warwick made it sound. 00:38:15.808 --> 00:38:21.538 Relatively straightforward to become very, very, very successful 00:38:21.538 --> 00:38:23.728 in the horse training business. 00:38:24.448 --> 00:38:32.368 Let me assure you, listeners, it is not, , it is possibly, I would say, the hardest 00:38:32.368 --> 00:38:35.788 skill that you can possibly try to learn. 00:38:35.788 --> 00:38:40.308 And the reason is, is that most skills, let's say you want to learn a language 00:38:40.313 --> 00:38:46.828 or an art or something, it's you and your body and brain and your nervous system. 00:38:48.118 --> 00:38:52.858 When you add a horse, it's a whole other body, brain, and nervous 00:38:52.858 --> 00:38:54.058 system that has its own ideas. 00:38:54.388 --> 00:38:57.298 The weighs what a truck weighs that solves its problems by violently 00:38:57.298 --> 00:39:00.658 running away that isn't designed to carry weight on its back. 00:39:01.018 --> 00:39:05.098 Regards you as a predator cuz you are, your weight is not designed 00:39:05.098 --> 00:39:06.208 to sit on a moving barrel. 00:39:06.538 --> 00:39:09.988 You have these hands, you try to solve things with your hands and grabbing 00:39:10.378 --> 00:39:11.878 because that's what we do as, as apes. 00:39:11.878 --> 00:39:15.718 Well, you can't do that on the horse and without upsetting it greatly, if 00:39:15.718 --> 00:39:20.448 you, , go into your, , fight, flight, freeze position in that sort of crouch 00:39:20.448 --> 00:39:23.988 where you protect your organs and hunch, which of course you want to do on 00:39:23.988 --> 00:39:25.698 horses because it's often quite scary. 00:39:26.398 --> 00:39:28.198 particularly with young horses, guess what's gonna happen? 00:39:28.198 --> 00:39:30.598 You're gonna fall off and you're gonna fall off quite badly cuz 00:39:30.598 --> 00:39:31.828 your, your weight will be wrong. 00:39:32.098 --> 00:39:34.138 So just those things alone. 00:39:34.948 --> 00:39:38.518 Mean that it's sort of a miracle that the thing can even happen at all. 00:39:39.298 --> 00:39:45.248 But to take it to the level that Warwick took it, is no easy, feat at all. 00:39:45.398 --> 00:39:49.028 So, I just want you to know that he's not being falsely modest here. 00:39:49.028 --> 00:39:51.818 He's just a, a fairly modest dude. 00:39:52.088 --> 00:39:54.068 so I know him, but take it from me. 00:39:54.178 --> 00:39:55.528 this was not an easy road. 00:39:55.678 --> 00:39:56.968 This was not an easy road at all. 00:39:57.178 --> 00:40:00.778 Alright, so you are, you are, you are there and you are now, 00:40:00.868 --> 00:40:04.018 you've got this online video library, and this is doing well. 00:40:04.228 --> 00:40:05.128 , Robin's left her job. 00:40:05.133 --> 00:40:07.198 You're basically in media at this point. 00:40:07.198 --> 00:40:10.228 You're, you are, you are, you may not know it, but you're creating 00:40:10.228 --> 00:40:13.018 media admittedly, in service. 00:40:13.023 --> 00:40:17.318 Admittedly, you know, the content is about what you know, you're 00:40:17.318 --> 00:40:22.228 not at this point making content about, foreign wars or, , Netflix. 00:40:22.308 --> 00:40:22.458 , right. 00:40:22.458 --> 00:40:24.418 I'm not a journalist Game of Thrones, series or anything. 00:40:24.418 --> 00:40:28.448 But you're, nonetheless, you are producing very effective, documentary television. 00:40:28.818 --> 00:40:29.778 , even if you don't know it. 00:40:30.478 --> 00:40:32.368 and you've created a family business out of this. 00:40:32.373 --> 00:40:33.568 So your, your son is involved. 00:40:33.568 --> 00:40:35.908 Your, your, your wife is involved now. 00:40:35.968 --> 00:40:38.488 Now you're going for it again. 00:40:38.518 --> 00:40:40.798 Why not just stay there? 00:40:41.398 --> 00:40:43.318 Where did you go? 00:40:43.768 --> 00:40:44.638 Where have you gone? 00:40:44.818 --> 00:40:47.398 When I said, you said, this is where we are, I said, this is where we were. 00:40:47.818 --> 00:40:48.688 I know that you've. 00:40:50.898 --> 00:40:51.883 out from this. 00:40:52.453 --> 00:40:56.853 And this is where I really do, suggest that you start to listen a bit more 00:40:56.853 --> 00:40:59.608 deeply, listeners, cuz everything up to this point has been preamble. 00:41:00.098 --> 00:41:01.713 Warwick Schiller: yeah, this is all that, all that's just 00:41:01.963 --> 00:41:03.993 Rupert Isaacson: lead up, but it's, we need the, we need the context. 00:41:04.233 --> 00:41:06.543 So, okay, I'll stop talking now. 00:41:06.543 --> 00:41:07.353 What happens next? 00:41:08.613 --> 00:41:13.983 Warwick Schiller: So, Robin wants to buy another raining horse and we have this 00:41:13.983 --> 00:41:15.783 modest budget to buy this raining horse. 00:41:16.173 --> 00:41:18.303 And she's looking at two different horses. 00:41:18.303 --> 00:41:22.413 And one is a big old steady Eddie, sort of a gilding. 00:41:22.413 --> 00:41:28.083 And the other one is this little tiny little, not tiny, but little very 00:41:28.083 --> 00:41:31.293 athletic feely, can do all the hard stuff. 00:41:31.533 --> 00:41:32.823 And they're both the same price. 00:41:32.823 --> 00:41:35.493 We're actually gonna look at 'em from the same trainer. 00:41:36.133 --> 00:41:40.393 , they're both the same price, but one's average and one is exceptional. 00:41:40.398 --> 00:41:44.443 But the exceptional one, the trainer that has him, he, they can't what we 00:41:44.563 --> 00:41:48.283 would call him the business get him shown, meaning the talent he can show 00:41:48.283 --> 00:41:52.313 you at home doesn't, you can't com put a complete run together in the show ring. 00:41:52.513 --> 00:41:55.993 Something always goes wrong, like, and with this particular horse, 00:41:56.533 --> 00:41:58.843 he would spook at the judge's chairs or something like that. 00:41:58.873 --> 00:42:00.883 And the guy that trained the horse is a friend of mine. 00:42:00.883 --> 00:42:03.463 I know he's very, very good at training raining horses. 00:42:03.463 --> 00:42:08.023 But as far as problem solving, you know, he's not the best at 00:42:08.053 --> 00:42:09.553 that sort, those sorts of things. 00:42:10.183 --> 00:42:12.373 And so I'm like, you know, I. 00:42:13.378 --> 00:42:14.998 I've got this online video library. 00:42:14.998 --> 00:42:18.178 I go around travel around the world doing clinics, and all the 00:42:18.208 --> 00:42:20.098 horses leave better than they came. 00:42:20.098 --> 00:42:21.508 I know what I'm talking about. 00:42:21.838 --> 00:42:24.418 I can fix that horse, buy that horse. 00:42:25.408 --> 00:42:26.388 And actually, interesting story. 00:42:26.388 --> 00:42:29.478 We actually bought him from Michael Schumacher's wife Karina. 00:42:29.808 --> 00:42:32.868 So the Formula One driver, okay, Karina's really into the raining. 00:42:32.868 --> 00:42:33.738 And, both horses. 00:42:33.738 --> 00:42:34.728 Karina owned both horses. 00:42:35.838 --> 00:42:37.818 A friend of mine was training horses for them at the time. 00:42:37.818 --> 00:42:40.878 So I ended up buying this horse, his named Sherlock, and we get him home 00:42:40.968 --> 00:42:44.958 and I wanna fix this, fix this horse. 00:42:46.158 --> 00:42:49.578 And some of the, some of the issues he had were easily solvable, but 00:42:49.578 --> 00:42:54.858 there was one that I wasn't aware of that was a lot more subtle. 00:42:55.458 --> 00:42:58.608 Sherlock was very obedient, did whatever you want, but he carried this level 00:42:58.608 --> 00:43:04.338 of tension that would interfere with him in the show ring to where, so 00:43:04.338 --> 00:43:07.668 in the reigning you, you get given a, you, you start with a score of 00:43:07.668 --> 00:43:12.828 70, and then you, for each movement, you ha add and subtract from there. 00:43:12.918 --> 00:43:15.858 It's either, you know, if it's, if it's a good movement, you might get 00:43:15.858 --> 00:43:19.008 a 71, you know, you might get one point added, or if it's bad, you 00:43:19.008 --> 00:43:20.508 get one point taken away, you know? 00:43:21.168 --> 00:43:24.828 and you know, for a, a rain, there's either seven or eight maneuvers in 00:43:24.833 --> 00:43:29.508 a raining pattern, and a really good raining score might be like a 74. 00:43:29.958 --> 00:43:30.258 Okay? 00:43:31.368 --> 00:43:35.033 But, Apart from getting scored on each maneuver, there are 00:43:35.038 --> 00:43:36.423 also penalties incurred. 00:43:36.603 --> 00:43:40.443 You know, it'd be like in jumping time, faults sort of thing, or knocking a rail 00:43:40.443 --> 00:43:41.763 would be, you know, that sort of thing. 00:43:42.603 --> 00:43:46.833 So if you jump clear your time is a certain thing in, in the jumping, but 00:43:46.833 --> 00:43:49.413 if you knock a rail, it's this much off. 00:43:49.418 --> 00:43:51.213 You knock two Rs too much, that sort of thing. 00:43:51.218 --> 00:43:51.593 Yeah. 00:43:51.693 --> 00:43:55.923 And so Sherlock could go in there and mark like, you know, Rob was showing him, 00:43:55.923 --> 00:44:01.473 he could go in there and mark earn a 74, but he would have a number of penalties 00:44:01.743 --> 00:44:03.063 that would bring him back down to a 70. 00:44:03.063 --> 00:44:06.783 And those penalties were the simplest of things. 00:44:07.053 --> 00:44:09.273 So in the reigning of horse needs to be on the correct lead. 00:44:09.723 --> 00:44:10.143 Of course, 00:44:11.583 --> 00:44:14.193 Rupert Isaacson: again, for the non horsey people, that means when you are countering 00:44:14.223 --> 00:44:20.363 or in the slow Gallup, the four leg needs to be on the inside of the curve. 00:44:20.573 --> 00:44:24.743 This might sound very esoteric, but it basically, it's, it can 00:44:24.743 --> 00:44:25.763 be the difference between a horse 00:44:25.913 --> 00:44:26.813 Warwick Schiller: falling over and not. 00:44:28.553 --> 00:44:28.733 Yeah. 00:44:28.733 --> 00:44:31.883 So if you think about skipping, you're gonna skip with one leg 00:44:32.303 --> 00:44:33.743 skips in front of the other one. 00:44:33.923 --> 00:44:37.763 Both of the legs, the front legs and the back legs need to be doing that thing. 00:44:37.763 --> 00:44:40.373 Like the inside Hein leg goes further forward in the outside hen 00:44:40.373 --> 00:44:41.603 leg and the front leg, same thing. 00:44:42.143 --> 00:44:44.813 Well, what Sherlock would do, because he had this level of tension when 00:44:44.813 --> 00:44:48.193 he was running fast circles in the reigning, he would bounce his hin 00:44:48.198 --> 00:44:49.283 feet together every once in a while. 00:44:49.283 --> 00:44:51.443 So he's not on the wrong lead. 00:44:51.773 --> 00:44:55.253 His outside hen leg does not reach further forward than his inside home league. 00:44:55.253 --> 00:44:56.063 He's not on the wrong lead. 00:44:56.333 --> 00:44:57.863 He would just bounce his home feet together. 00:44:57.893 --> 00:45:00.653 Well, that's a one point penalty that is not on the correct. 00:45:01.323 --> 00:45:01.763 Okay. 00:45:01.903 --> 00:45:04.733 For that split second, but it's still the same penalty. 00:45:05.213 --> 00:45:05.333 Yeah. 00:45:05.603 --> 00:45:10.313 And so he would do that, like, and I could not train that out of him. 00:45:10.313 --> 00:45:11.273 I couldn't Yeah. 00:45:11.273 --> 00:45:13.283 Do exercises to, to fix that. 00:45:13.283 --> 00:45:16.973 And trying to do things actually made him seem worse. 00:45:17.303 --> 00:45:17.633 Right. 00:45:18.533 --> 00:45:20.193 And that brought stress attention. 00:45:20.193 --> 00:45:20.713 Right. 00:45:20.713 --> 00:45:21.113 Yeah. 00:45:21.203 --> 00:45:24.233 And what, what I came to realize about Sherlock, he was just 00:45:24.233 --> 00:45:28.343 very, very shut down, very, very robotic shut down in his head. 00:45:29.213 --> 00:45:39.263 And he, he led me down a rabbit hole of figuring out that I was 00:45:39.263 --> 00:45:40.913 exactly the same way Sherlock was me. 00:45:43.703 --> 00:45:49.163 And how I came to discover that I was at a horse expo in Madison, Wisconsin. 00:45:49.193 --> 00:45:53.903 And at those horse expos, most times I'm working with the horse in an arena. 00:45:53.903 --> 00:45:54.053 Right. 00:45:54.053 --> 00:45:55.103 You know, I don't bring a horse. 00:45:55.103 --> 00:45:58.373 I have problem horses that show up and I help them, but every once in a 00:45:58.373 --> 00:46:01.943 while, the horse expo will have you do a standup talk in like a lecture hall. 00:46:02.603 --> 00:46:06.833 And so I've, and you know, quite a, quite often the horse ex expos have that. 00:46:06.833 --> 00:46:10.463 So I just have this title that I have that I will spit. 00:46:10.463 --> 00:46:12.953 You know, they want titles for the sessions three months ahead of time. 00:46:12.953 --> 00:46:14.123 And I'll just give 'em this one title. 00:46:14.123 --> 00:46:15.593 And it's called Everything I Learned in Life. 00:46:15.593 --> 00:46:18.203 I Learned From Horses, and I've done it over the years. 00:46:18.203 --> 00:46:20.423 And I just talk about life lessons I've learned from horses. 00:46:20.813 --> 00:46:25.193 And each one's a bit different, but by about this time, I'd 00:46:25.193 --> 00:46:26.603 started looking at things. 00:46:27.408 --> 00:46:29.558 I dunno quite a bit differently, but I stood up in front of a couple of 00:46:29.558 --> 00:46:30.698 hundred people and did this talk. 00:46:30.698 --> 00:46:33.548 And that was, the talk was different than I'd done before. 00:46:33.548 --> 00:46:38.948 And I was probably a little more vulnerable about things than I had before. 00:46:39.278 --> 00:46:42.458 And when I got done with that talk, I went back to my booth and I 00:46:42.458 --> 00:46:44.318 went past Barbara Schulte's booth. 00:46:44.318 --> 00:46:48.608 So you met Barb at the, the Genuine Podcast Summit last year. 00:46:48.848 --> 00:46:51.698 Barb's a question mindset coach. 00:46:52.958 --> 00:46:55.598 And she said, how'd the talk go? 00:46:55.603 --> 00:46:57.938 And I said, oh my god, Barb, I'm exhausted. 00:46:57.938 --> 00:46:59.588 I feel like I've been run over by a truck. 00:46:59.708 --> 00:47:00.368 She goes, what do you mean? 00:47:00.398 --> 00:47:04.058 And I said, ah, I was, there was 200 strangers in that room. 00:47:04.058 --> 00:47:10.538 And I, I told him some stuff I've probably never even told myself before. 00:47:11.408 --> 00:47:14.108 I've never admitted to somebody or probably never knew it to myself before. 00:47:14.498 --> 00:47:16.508 And she goes, oh, well you know what Brene Brown says, you know, 00:47:16.808 --> 00:47:18.398 vulnerability's a ultimate badass. 00:47:18.488 --> 00:47:19.748 And I'm like, Brene, who? 00:47:20.438 --> 00:47:21.188 She says, Brene Brown. 00:47:21.188 --> 00:47:24.818 So I came home and I looked up this Brene Brown and I got a couple of her audiobook. 00:47:24.818 --> 00:47:27.818 So I was outside on the tractor moving piles of horse manure or whatever 00:47:28.028 --> 00:47:29.498 with my earphones on listening. 00:47:30.518 --> 00:47:35.258 And Brett, a Brown says in there, if you, you, you can't 00:47:36.098 --> 00:47:37.778 selectively suppress emotions. 00:47:37.778 --> 00:47:41.378 If you suppress the low emotions, fear, grief, those sorts of 00:47:41.378 --> 00:47:43.718 things, you automatically suppress the higher emotions. 00:47:43.748 --> 00:47:48.318 And I'm like, well, I know, you know, in my family of origin, well 00:47:48.323 --> 00:47:51.888 my culture I grew up in, you know, boys don't cry, boys don't show fear. 00:47:52.473 --> 00:47:54.093 And in my family, I don't show grief. 00:47:54.093 --> 00:47:56.253 Like I can remember going to a funeral and my parents would go, 00:47:56.253 --> 00:47:58.863 well, he's dead, and off you go. 00:47:58.893 --> 00:47:59.433 You know? 00:47:59.703 --> 00:48:03.423 And so I knew I had some suppressed emotions on the lower side, but I 00:48:03.423 --> 00:48:07.113 never thought about the higher side, like, could I experience more joy 00:48:07.113 --> 00:48:09.963 or more happiness or, or whatever. 00:48:09.963 --> 00:48:14.733 And so that kind of led me down a rabbit hole of therapy and looking at, looking 00:48:14.733 --> 00:48:19.473 at for different ways of resolving that. 00:48:19.473 --> 00:48:24.423 And you know, it's, that's been four year, that was 2017, so maybe 00:48:24.513 --> 00:48:26.043 that's been about six years now 00:48:26.043 --> 00:48:27.873 Rupert Isaacson: before we join you down the rabbit hole. 00:48:28.083 --> 00:48:32.103 Why on that particular occasion were you vulnerable talking to those 00:48:32.103 --> 00:48:33.603 people where you hadn't been before? 00:48:33.843 --> 00:48:34.383 What changed? 00:48:34.383 --> 00:48:35.103 What was different? 00:48:36.100 --> 00:48:39.820 Warwick Schiller: well, sh you know, Sherlock had got me, Sherlock had kind 00:48:39.820 --> 00:48:46.270 of got me to where I thought I knew what I was doing and w I know what 00:48:46.270 --> 00:48:47.980 to do and I know how to solve things. 00:48:48.490 --> 00:48:54.460 And when I couldn't solve things the way I was looking at solving them 00:48:55.210 --> 00:48:58.750 the way I had been solving all sorts of things in the past, it kind of, 00:48:59.080 --> 00:49:01.900 that's a little confronting to where you're like, you know, it's kind of 00:49:01.900 --> 00:49:04.810 like your view of the world changes. 00:49:04.810 --> 00:49:06.130 Like, I thought it was this way. 00:49:06.130 --> 00:49:08.620 I thought there were absolutely, and this works. 00:49:09.825 --> 00:49:12.625 . And when that doesn't work, it kind of gets you looking outside that. 00:49:12.625 --> 00:49:15.805 So I started, what I had started doing was reading articles online by 00:49:15.805 --> 00:49:17.935 people that I would've horse people. 00:49:18.235 --> 00:49:23.335 Then in the past I would've considered crazy cat ladies , you know, like, 00:49:24.775 --> 00:49:27.955 and a lot of it had to do with relationship type work with horses and 00:49:27.955 --> 00:49:31.165 not technique type stuff with horses. 00:49:31.165 --> 00:49:35.935 And I, and then I'd started, I'd started fiddling with horses at clinics actually. 00:49:35.935 --> 00:49:38.275 And I, I had a, 00:49:38.826 --> 00:49:42.206 I had a horse at a clinic in Texas around this time. 00:49:42.206 --> 00:49:48.266 And it was before this, it was before this horse expo where I gave this 00:49:48.266 --> 00:49:54.326 talk and this, this was the thing that probably changed everything for me. 00:49:54.326 --> 00:49:56.096 So this horse came to a clinic, he's a Mustang. 00:49:56.101 --> 00:49:58.586 He's been outta the wild for nine, for six years. 00:49:58.591 --> 00:49:59.486 He's nine years old. 00:49:59.486 --> 00:50:00.866 Been outta the wild since he was three. 00:50:01.556 --> 00:50:06.176 They've been riding him and, you know, he does everything well, except every 00:50:06.176 --> 00:50:10.676 once in a while he will bolt out of nowhere and they dunno what causes it. 00:50:11.276 --> 00:50:11.516 Okay. 00:50:11.521 --> 00:50:14.156 And the trainer of the horse was at the clinic as well as the owner. 00:50:15.016 --> 00:50:17.626 , you would've met them probably at the podcast summit last 00:50:17.626 --> 00:50:18.286 year cuz they were there. 00:50:18.586 --> 00:50:22.456 But the owner's name's Hannah and, and this horse, no. 00:50:22.456 --> 00:50:25.726 So I said to the, I said to the trainer, so what triggers the bolting? 00:50:25.726 --> 00:50:27.526 Cuz you don't sew the bolting issues? 00:50:27.566 --> 00:50:28.086 Boltings. 00:50:28.086 --> 00:50:29.086 A bolting is a. 00:50:30.636 --> 00:50:31.846 is a symptom of something else. 00:50:32.416 --> 00:50:34.756 If you can figure out what the something else is, the bolting will go away. 00:50:35.506 --> 00:50:36.496 And I said, what causes it? 00:50:36.496 --> 00:50:37.396 Like, what's the trigger? 00:50:37.396 --> 00:50:40.366 She goes, the, and the trainer said, I don't know what the trigger is. 00:50:40.366 --> 00:50:43.186 Like it could be something that yesterday he was fine with. 00:50:43.186 --> 00:50:45.316 And you know, the time before it could have been something he was 00:50:45.316 --> 00:50:46.246 fine with the day before that. 00:50:47.026 --> 00:50:48.076 And I'm like, well, that's interesting. 00:50:48.081 --> 00:50:51.646 I'm not sure I can help you because I've gotta know what the trigger 00:50:51.646 --> 00:50:52.936 is in order to solve the problem. 00:50:52.936 --> 00:50:54.226 The problem is not the problem, you know? 00:50:55.216 --> 00:50:59.506 And so Hannah was on the ground doing some groundwork with him, and 00:50:59.511 --> 00:51:01.276 she was asking him to disengage. 00:51:01.276 --> 00:51:04.156 So he is just gonna walk down his side and just ask him to step over 00:51:04.161 --> 00:51:06.046 behind maybes, cross his hi legs. 00:51:07.366 --> 00:51:11.476 And she said to me, Hey, he keeps blocking me out. 00:51:11.626 --> 00:51:14.896 Like when I go to walk down beside him, I'm in, like she's in front 00:51:14.896 --> 00:51:17.836 of him facing him, and she wants to walk down his left side and ask 00:51:17.836 --> 00:51:20.206 him to move his hand end over, but he turns his head and blocks her. 00:51:20.926 --> 00:51:26.856 And in the past I probably would have taken that as you know, not 00:51:26.861 --> 00:51:29.176 necessarily disobedience, but what I would've done in the past. 00:51:29.176 --> 00:51:31.966 It just reached my hand under his jaw and moved his head back to the 00:51:31.966 --> 00:51:33.586 middle and walked down the side. 00:51:35.446 --> 00:51:36.166 I said, let me try. 00:51:36.171 --> 00:51:38.686 And I went over and I went to walk down his side and he turned 00:51:38.686 --> 00:51:40.936 his head and blocked me with his head to not get in his side. 00:51:40.936 --> 00:51:43.516 Instead of saying, excuse me, I'm going down your side. 00:51:43.906 --> 00:51:47.626 I stepped back to my original position and said, I saw your concern. 00:51:47.896 --> 00:51:49.756 It was basically what I was communicating from that. 00:51:49.761 --> 00:51:52.096 Like, I'm not sure why you did that. 00:51:52.766 --> 00:51:55.336 , but I saw you did that and I, you're telling me you don't 00:51:55.336 --> 00:51:56.206 want me to go down there. 00:51:56.211 --> 00:51:59.406 And I said to Hannah, you've probably just overdone the disengaging. 00:51:59.411 --> 00:52:02.086 Like if you drill stuff like this, they probably just get sick of it. 00:52:02.086 --> 00:52:03.046 I think that's what he's doing. 00:52:03.406 --> 00:52:04.096 Let me try again. 00:52:04.336 --> 00:52:04.996 So I tried again. 00:52:05.001 --> 00:52:05.776 He turned his head. 00:52:05.776 --> 00:52:07.426 I stepped back and said, I see your concern. 00:52:07.426 --> 00:52:07.816 I did it. 00:52:07.936 --> 00:52:09.166 I need that for about 10 minutes. 00:52:09.436 --> 00:52:13.726 And after about 10 minutes of not correcting him, not training him, but just 00:52:13.726 --> 00:52:18.946 telling him I'm listening, I go to walk down that side and he lets me, doesn't 00:52:18.951 --> 00:52:20.386 turn his head in the slightest bit. 00:52:21.226 --> 00:52:24.616 I'm like, okay, he's been ridden for six years, so obviously I could touch him. 00:52:25.306 --> 00:52:29.446 And so I reached my hand up to put on his wither just to put my hand there. 00:52:29.476 --> 00:52:34.096 But I'm watching his head and his eye and his ear and his nose and his muzzle. 00:52:34.516 --> 00:52:37.456 And as I go to touch him, his head raises just about half an inch. 00:52:37.456 --> 00:52:39.676 He just stiffens up very slightly. 00:52:39.676 --> 00:52:42.706 So I took my hand away and I waited till he showed me some 00:52:42.711 --> 00:52:45.226 sign of being less concerned, like his head lowers or whatever. 00:52:45.556 --> 00:52:46.306 And I tried it again. 00:52:47.086 --> 00:52:48.226 I did that for about 10 minutes. 00:52:48.766 --> 00:52:50.866 And so I spent 10 minutes trying to walk down the side of 00:52:50.866 --> 00:52:52.036 him, which he finally lets me. 00:52:52.276 --> 00:52:55.546 And then after about 10 minutes of this, doing this with my hand, 00:52:55.546 --> 00:52:56.686 I can now put my hand on him. 00:52:56.686 --> 00:52:58.336 And there's no change in him. 00:52:58.336 --> 00:52:59.566 Like he's not concerned at all. 00:53:00.376 --> 00:53:03.376 And I said to Hannah, so now what I'm gonna do, I'm asking to disengage. 00:53:03.376 --> 00:53:05.266 And I ask him to disengage and he does it perfectly. 00:53:05.866 --> 00:53:08.836 And I said to Hannah, okay, what I'm gonna do now is I'm gonna go back to the 00:53:08.836 --> 00:53:10.996 front of him and come down this side. 00:53:10.996 --> 00:53:12.256 And I bet he blocks me again. 00:53:12.406 --> 00:53:14.766 He's gonna tell me I'm sick of disengaging. 00:53:14.766 --> 00:53:16.096 You know, I walk back to the. 00:53:17.791 --> 00:53:20.071 I go to walk down the side, he lets me ask him to disengage. 00:53:20.071 --> 00:53:22.531 So I go back to the front, I walk down the side and disengage. 00:53:22.651 --> 00:53:23.791 And I did it over and over and over. 00:53:23.791 --> 00:53:25.051 And I couldn't get him to say no. 00:53:25.381 --> 00:53:29.101 And I said to Hannah, I have no idea why he was saying no before, 00:53:29.101 --> 00:53:30.061 because he's fine with it now. 00:53:30.931 --> 00:53:33.691 So I hand the lead, wrote back to her and I, she said, what do you want me to do? 00:53:33.691 --> 00:53:34.981 And I said, just hang on to him. 00:53:35.101 --> 00:53:37.801 Just hang there with him, you know, let him think about that for a minute. 00:53:37.801 --> 00:53:41.011 So I go and help somebody else and about 10 minutes later there is a collective 00:53:41.011 --> 00:53:45.061 gasp from everybody at the clinic, like, and I turn and I look, and this 00:53:45.061 --> 00:53:49.081 little Mustang, his name's Cody, has buckled at the knees, dropped through 00:53:49.086 --> 00:53:50.851 his belly and just started snoring. 00:53:50.851 --> 00:53:53.371 Little dust, clouds in the dirt, like his head's vertical. 00:53:53.551 --> 00:53:58.501 And he's, and then all of a sudden he has a roll, gets up, has a big old shake, and 00:53:58.501 --> 00:54:02.671 then just buckles at the knees and goes back down and falls immediately asleep. 00:54:03.421 --> 00:54:06.811 And I said to Hannah, has that ever happened before? 00:54:08.011 --> 00:54:08.671 Is that normal? 00:54:09.361 --> 00:54:12.031 And she said, I've had him for six years and I've seen him lay down once. 00:54:13.081 --> 00:54:17.011 And so, right then I knew something had happened. 00:54:17.011 --> 00:54:19.861 I wasn't sure what happened or why it happened, but I knew something had 00:54:19.861 --> 00:54:21.991 happened and he slept to lunchtime. 00:54:21.991 --> 00:54:25.351 So, you know, at the time when I do a clinic, I was having a morning group 00:54:25.351 --> 00:54:28.711 and an afternoon group, and they were in the morning group and he slept for about 00:54:28.716 --> 00:54:31.561 an hour and a half with the loudspeaker going and other horses riding around. 00:54:31.561 --> 00:54:32.881 And she had actually gave 00:54:33.211 --> 00:54:34.021 Rupert Isaacson: the non horsey people. 00:54:34.021 --> 00:54:35.371 That's just, that doesn't happen. 00:54:35.671 --> 00:54:36.511 Horses, it doesn't happen. 00:54:36.631 --> 00:54:37.411 They don't sleep like that. 00:54:37.411 --> 00:54:37.681 No. 00:54:37.741 --> 00:54:40.201 Warwick Schiller: They little So. 00:54:41.131 --> 00:54:43.381 She put him away and the next day for the clinic, she brings him in 00:54:43.381 --> 00:54:45.511 first thing in the morning, you know, eight o'clock in the morning. 00:54:45.511 --> 00:54:46.561 And she said, what do you want me to do? 00:54:46.561 --> 00:54:48.721 And I said, just hang with him and see what he does. 00:54:48.721 --> 00:54:51.511 So she stands there about 20 minutes later, boom. 00:54:51.841 --> 00:54:55.411 And he goes, passes out flat on his side, sleeps for four hours till 00:54:55.411 --> 00:54:57.211 lunchtime, like doesn't get up. 00:54:57.481 --> 00:54:58.741 He's unconscious. 00:54:59.131 --> 00:55:02.491 Rupert Isaacson: And again, for listeners, horses, a, the reason 00:55:02.491 --> 00:55:04.711 they don't lie down for that long is because they're vulnerable to 00:55:05.091 --> 00:55:06.301 predators in the wild when they do that. 00:55:06.721 --> 00:55:11.971 And b, usually their internal organs, , can compress on it on 00:55:11.971 --> 00:55:14.391 themselves, when a horse is lying like that for an awful long time. 00:55:14.396 --> 00:55:16.251 So horses just generally will not do that. 00:55:16.701 --> 00:55:19.601 So this is, let's just say this is highly unusual behavior, okay? 00:55:20.351 --> 00:55:22.181 Warwick Schiller: Highly unusual behavior for any horse. 00:55:22.181 --> 00:55:24.281 But this horse, she hasn't seen him lay down in six years. 00:55:24.286 --> 00:55:26.261 She said, actually, I seen him lay down once, but when I appeared 00:55:26.261 --> 00:55:27.341 on the horizon, he jumped up. 00:55:27.531 --> 00:55:28.011 Yeah. 00:55:28.031 --> 00:55:32.381 And so I knew something had happened and I came home from that clinic and I looked 00:55:32.381 --> 00:55:34.661 up sleeping habits of horses online. 00:55:34.691 --> 00:55:37.751 You know, you, I know horses can sleep standing up and I know 00:55:37.751 --> 00:55:38.861 horses will sleep laying down. 00:55:38.861 --> 00:55:41.621 But what I didn't know was when horses sleep standing 00:55:41.621 --> 00:55:43.271 up, it is a very light sleep. 00:55:44.441 --> 00:55:45.281 It's dozing. 00:55:45.341 --> 00:55:46.721 They're just dozing in an order. 00:55:47.501 --> 00:55:51.311 So what they need to do in order to get enough r e m sleep, they need 00:55:51.341 --> 00:55:53.321 to lay prone, they need to lay flat. 00:55:54.161 --> 00:55:55.901 And in order to lay flat, they need to feel safe. 00:55:56.981 --> 00:56:02.021 And if a horse does not get enough, R e RM sleep, now we can't ask 00:56:02.021 --> 00:56:04.991 the horse what they do, but with humans, if they don't get enough r 00:56:04.991 --> 00:56:06.461 e m sleep, they're either irritable. 00:56:08.081 --> 00:56:09.011 Anxious. 00:56:09.731 --> 00:56:11.351 So anyway, she went home from the clinic. 00:56:11.351 --> 00:56:12.341 He slept for about a week. 00:56:12.341 --> 00:56:15.101 Like he spent more time sleeping than anything else for about a week. 00:56:15.431 --> 00:56:17.411 That was six or seven years ago. 00:56:18.071 --> 00:56:20.891 He has not bolted once since. 00:56:23.351 --> 00:56:23.741 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:56:23.741 --> 00:56:26.621 I mean it makes one thing, you know, lack of sleep in a human if it's 00:56:26.621 --> 00:56:28.211 that chronic needs a psychosis. 00:56:29.081 --> 00:56:31.991 Warwick Schiller: Um, well this was, yeah, what he, he just wasn't relaxed. 00:56:31.991 --> 00:56:35.021 So his nervous system was on high alert and so it didn't, it 00:56:35.021 --> 00:56:36.221 wasn't about what set him off. 00:56:36.221 --> 00:56:41.201 It was the fact he, you know, his nervous system was stuck in flight mode basically. 00:56:41.261 --> 00:56:41.531 Yeah. 00:56:41.651 --> 00:56:46.421 But anyway, the big thing about that was I didn't do anything except listen. 00:56:46.871 --> 00:56:50.951 I only thing I did with him was communicate the fact I was listening 00:56:51.041 --> 00:56:55.361 and when he said, you notice that you noticed that little thing, you 00:56:55.366 --> 00:56:56.741 noticed my head raised half an inch. 00:56:56.921 --> 00:56:59.741 If you noticed that, then you could probably notice a save two 00:56:59.741 --> 00:57:02.921 tiger on the horizon, which means you are one of my herd mates. 00:57:02.921 --> 00:57:06.371 Like, I trust your judgment, which means I could lay down around you. 00:57:07.511 --> 00:57:10.511 And it was the biggest change I've ever seen with a horse 00:57:11.351 --> 00:57:12.731 that I didn't do anything with. 00:57:12.791 --> 00:57:16.091 Well, even, it's probably as big a change as I've ever seen in a 00:57:16.091 --> 00:57:17.531 horse and I didn't do anything. 00:57:17.531 --> 00:57:21.551 And up to that point in time, I'd all been about training horses, training, learning 00:57:21.551 --> 00:57:25.091 better training techniques, learning more about more empathetic training techniques. 00:57:25.091 --> 00:57:26.891 But they were all training techniques. 00:57:27.311 --> 00:57:31.661 And that was got me thinking about, well, what can we get done by listening? 00:57:32.411 --> 00:57:32.771 Quick 00:57:33.251 --> 00:57:34.301 Rupert Isaacson: question before we go there. 00:57:34.601 --> 00:57:36.251 Was this post Sherlock or pre-show? 00:57:37.766 --> 00:57:40.256 Warwick Schiller: This was after I got Sherlock and I, I, what I had done with 00:57:40.256 --> 00:57:43.226 Sherlock was I had stepped away from trying to make Sherlock any different 00:57:43.226 --> 00:57:45.176 because I didn't have the answer. 00:57:45.206 --> 00:57:47.396 And I'm not just gonna try and put a square peg in a round 00:57:47.396 --> 00:57:49.586 hole like I Sherlock is the 00:57:49.876 --> 00:57:50.966 Rupert Isaacson: bouncing of the two hind legs. 00:57:50.966 --> 00:57:51.836 You, you didn't fix it? 00:57:52.556 --> 00:57:54.506 Warwick Schiller: No, I didn't fix it and I couldn't fix it. 00:57:54.896 --> 00:57:57.236 And it made him more concerned when I was trying to fix it. 00:57:57.236 --> 00:58:01.076 So I said to Robin, okay, you can, you can go to a show and 00:58:01.081 --> 00:58:04.376 you can mark a 74 but lose four penalty points and still be a 70. 00:58:04.796 --> 00:58:08.456 And the person who won it was a 71 and you can be second, so 00:58:08.966 --> 00:58:10.166 I'm not gonna do anything to it. 00:58:10.196 --> 00:58:13.796 Cuz he could do all the hard stuff like he could, the spinning and the 00:58:13.796 --> 00:58:17.336 stopping and all the hard stuff he could do, that was not a problem for him. 00:58:17.576 --> 00:58:21.296 So she could still compete and be quite good without that. 00:58:21.296 --> 00:58:25.316 But I, I wasn't gonna try to fix it cause I didn't know how to fix it. 00:58:25.316 --> 00:58:29.456 But I got looking at other things and, and some of the articles I'd read and things 00:58:29.456 --> 00:58:33.296 like that is what made me experiment the way I did with this horse at this clinic. 00:58:33.296 --> 00:58:37.616 And that basically changed everything about how I approach horses is nowadays 00:58:37.616 --> 00:58:43.766 my whole approach is about telling them how much I'm listening first. 00:58:43.766 --> 00:58:46.946 And so, you know, you create connections through attunement, then 00:58:46.951 --> 00:58:47.936 the training comes on top of it. 00:58:47.936 --> 00:58:51.026 And it's amazing how easy horses are to train when, when 00:58:51.026 --> 00:58:51.986 you get all that stuff done. 00:58:51.986 --> 00:58:55.466 But that, that was the horse that really changed things for me. 00:58:55.706 --> 00:59:01.376 And it was after that, that clinic that I did the talk at the 00:59:01.376 --> 00:59:03.536 horse expo and I told that story. 00:59:03.836 --> 00:59:04.016 Got it. 00:59:04.016 --> 00:59:04.676 And I probably. 00:59:05.381 --> 00:59:06.791 A few other stories about some things. 00:59:06.791 --> 00:59:09.791 I'm not sure what they were, but, so that's what led me down the rabbit hole 00:59:09.791 --> 00:59:11.951 of starting to look into my own stuff. 00:59:11.951 --> 00:59:14.141 And you know, after about a year of that, I was thinking, yeah, I'm getting 00:59:14.141 --> 00:59:18.221 somewhere, but here, seven years later, just recently, I'm like, oh 00:59:18.221 --> 00:59:22.151 no, I'm just, I've just got to another level right now to where, and I'm 00:59:22.151 --> 00:59:25.001 not talking about going upper level, I'm going down a level like, oh no, 00:59:25.001 --> 00:59:26.711 this is deeper than I thought it was. 00:59:27.251 --> 00:59:29.831 There's, there's more to this self-reflection stuff 00:59:29.831 --> 00:59:30.581 than I thought there was, 00:59:31.091 --> 00:59:33.821 Rupert Isaacson: you know, for, again, listeners, , I, , two years 00:59:33.826 --> 00:59:39.521 ago, , found myself sitting in a sweat lodge with Warwick and, , a great 00:59:39.521 --> 00:59:43.901 friend of ours, Joel Dunley, who works in amazing therapeutic riding in, 00:59:43.981 --> 00:59:48.471 , in, , California, , with a medicine man from the Native American church. 00:59:48.501 --> 00:59:54.251 And, , that was the first time I, I was myself struggling. 00:59:54.491 --> 01:00:01.791 , I was in a major punk and the, , medicine man said to me, , I think 01:00:01.791 --> 01:00:03.961 you need to take some medicine. 01:00:03.966 --> 01:00:05.721 And by that he meant peyote. 01:00:06.561 --> 01:00:08.661 And I'm not a recreational drug user. 01:00:08.721 --> 01:00:09.111 There had. 01:00:10.296 --> 01:00:14.856 A chapter of that way back 500 years ago in my past, back in the police do scene 01:00:14.856 --> 01:00:18.936 when mastered on still bar bellow to mastered on across the prime evil swamp. 01:00:18.936 --> 01:00:22.416 But you know, I don't, I don't like alter state of consciousness, 01:00:22.516 --> 01:00:24.736 , that are induced that much. 01:00:25.106 --> 01:00:26.966 , because like everybody, I'm a bit of a control freak. 01:00:27.206 --> 01:00:32.126 So I was, I had all sorts of worries and then I gave up and I surrendered, 01:00:32.126 --> 01:00:36.236 and it turned out to be, life-changing and helped me an awful lot. 01:00:36.236 --> 01:00:39.656 And has to this day, Warwick was in that sweat lodge with me. 01:00:40.646 --> 01:00:46.976 So you've gone Warwick from, beginning to listen to horses now, beginning 01:00:46.976 --> 01:00:48.466 to look a little bit at yourself. 01:00:50.726 --> 01:00:53.936 Where does it go and why? 01:00:55.747 --> 01:00:57.037 Warwick Schiller: Can you reframe that question? 01:00:57.097 --> 01:00:59.347 Like what, what's your actual question? 01:00:59.737 --> 01:01:00.227 Okay. 01:01:00.232 --> 01:01:00.967 Where does it go next? 01:01:01.387 --> 01:01:01.807 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:01:01.807 --> 01:01:05.017 You, you, you've started listening to horses and now listening to horses 01:01:05.347 --> 01:01:10.447 in this particular way has led you to some degree to listen to yourself. 01:01:11.657 --> 01:01:13.937 , you have this fight flight freeze. 01:01:13.937 --> 01:01:15.347 You have this shut down. 01:01:15.857 --> 01:01:17.117 You're beginning to realize this. 01:01:17.117 --> 01:01:19.937 You're beginning to see, you know, it's a terrible cliche to 01:01:19.937 --> 01:01:20.927 say the horse is your mirror. 01:01:20.927 --> 01:01:23.987 And it's, it's a somewhat abused cliche, but it's not that like 01:01:23.987 --> 01:01:25.097 all cliches, there's truth in it. 01:01:25.697 --> 01:01:33.842 , so you are seeing this and now you are feeling for some reason, You can't ignore 01:01:33.872 --> 01:01:35.852 your own shutdown downness anymore. 01:01:35.852 --> 01:01:39.452 Why a lot of people would, a lot of people would just keep going. 01:01:40.442 --> 01:01:44.912 Warwick Schiller: I think because I was aware, aware of it, really. 01:01:47.252 --> 01:01:50.942 , yeah, I, I just became aware of it and I was, what, what I, you know, 01:01:50.942 --> 01:01:53.912 what I ca you said some people would ignore their own shutdown. 01:01:54.242 --> 01:01:58.892 What I had come to realize is that the way I had been showing up in the world, 01:02:00.242 --> 01:02:04.562 there was a different way to be, you know, I thought my lot in life was my lot life. 01:02:04.567 --> 01:02:10.702 Like how I, and you know what, when you, when you spend a lot of time shut down, 01:02:10.702 --> 01:02:14.272 you know, a minor state of depression, you don't know you're depressed. 01:02:14.632 --> 01:02:14.872 Yeah. 01:02:15.652 --> 01:02:19.522 Because it's your normal, you don't know there's any other way you live and Right. 01:02:19.527 --> 01:02:19.612 And 01:02:19.832 --> 01:02:21.472 Rupert Isaacson: you're basically functional on a superficial 01:02:21.477 --> 01:02:21.832 Warwick Schiller: level. 01:02:21.892 --> 01:02:22.342 Right. 01:02:22.342 --> 01:02:22.702 So, yeah. 01:02:22.702 --> 01:02:26.332 And, but that's all, you know, if that's all, you know, that's, that's normal. 01:02:26.332 --> 01:02:33.262 And I spent a year doing a type of therapy called Dialectic Behavior Therapy, which 01:02:33.592 --> 01:02:38.392 was, I think originally designed for, um, created for highly suicidal adults. 01:02:38.397 --> 01:02:41.962 But they found it's good for people with any emotional regulation or 01:02:41.992 --> 01:02:45.863 dysregulation, you know, emotional regulation issues or dys regul. 01:02:46.717 --> 01:02:50.287 But I spent a year doing both individual and group therapy. 01:02:50.557 --> 01:02:51.127 Why that? 01:02:51.307 --> 01:02:52.027 Rupert Isaacson: Out of interest? 01:02:52.297 --> 01:02:52.597 With 01:02:52.597 --> 01:02:55.257 Warwick Schiller: all the I asked, I asked someone I knew, , through 01:02:55.257 --> 01:02:59.367 horses, who's a therapist, you know, what sort of therapy I should try, 01:02:59.367 --> 01:03:00.837 and, and she suggested that one. 01:03:00.842 --> 01:03:03.167 But I did, individual and group therapy. 01:03:03.167 --> 01:03:06.227 And the reason I did the group therapy is because when I first 01:03:06.227 --> 01:03:08.267 went and saw the therapist, I told her what I wanted to work on. 01:03:08.267 --> 01:03:09.527 She goes, oh yeah, this would be pretty easy. 01:03:10.187 --> 01:03:13.157 And after about three months of not, and she said, we have group therapy, 01:03:13.162 --> 01:03:14.057 but you won't need to do that. 01:03:14.117 --> 01:03:16.547 And after about three months of doing the individual therapy not getting 01:03:16.547 --> 01:03:18.587 anywhere, she goes, you really should start doing the group therapy. 01:03:18.587 --> 01:03:21.947 So I did the group and the individual therapy for a better part of your 01:03:21.947 --> 01:03:23.867 year and didn't get anywhere. 01:03:24.407 --> 01:03:25.787 Rupert Isaacson: What happened in those sessions? 01:03:25.877 --> 01:03:28.157 Why did you not get anywhere and what's the nuts and bolts 01:03:28.157 --> 01:03:29.147 of that type of therapy? 01:03:30.737 --> 01:03:33.887 Warwick Schiller: the nuts and bolts of that type of therapy, it's about 01:03:34.907 --> 01:03:40.397 developing, skills to use when you have emotional dysregulation. 01:03:41.777 --> 01:03:46.277 But what I found after 12 months and that didn't work, was you 01:03:46.277 --> 01:03:51.647 actually have to have some emotions for that particular method to work 01:03:51.647 --> 01:03:53.777 upon you when you have no emotions. 01:03:53.837 --> 01:03:56.807 Like we'd have homework every week from the, the group therapy, you 01:03:56.807 --> 01:04:00.707 know, you are gonna do this homework and then when you ha and, and then 01:04:00.917 --> 01:04:02.387 you're going to use that skill. 01:04:02.807 --> 01:04:03.947 It's the same as training horses. 01:04:03.947 --> 01:04:07.217 You, you know, you don't tr use the skill before you teach the skill. 01:04:07.217 --> 01:04:09.257 You teach the skill separately, and then when you have a situation 01:04:09.257 --> 01:04:10.217 to use it, you use the skill. 01:04:12.037 --> 01:04:15.782 And so our homework was to use the skill after we'd worked on it during the week 01:04:15.992 --> 01:04:17.912 and we'd come back like, do your homework. 01:04:17.912 --> 01:04:18.512 I'm like, no. 01:04:18.752 --> 01:04:19.172 Why not? 01:04:19.742 --> 01:04:22.322 Well, I didn't have any emotional regulation issues, did I? 01:04:22.982 --> 01:04:23.612 that didn't work. 01:04:23.612 --> 01:04:27.392 So, and this is where you just mentioned PE a minute ago. 01:04:27.722 --> 01:04:35.552 So after that, I was January after that, I was January probably 2019 maybe. 01:04:37.332 --> 01:04:40.782 I am driving around in Australia doing some clinics, and I'm 01:04:40.782 --> 01:04:42.882 listening to an audio book by 01:04:45.882 --> 01:04:46.962 Tim Ferris. 01:04:47.022 --> 01:04:52.962 I think it might be, might be Tim Ferriss or Dave Asprin. 01:04:52.962 --> 01:04:54.732 Now it was Dave Asbury, the Bulletproof Coffee Guide. 01:04:54.732 --> 01:04:55.992 I don't know if you know who Dave Esper is. 01:04:56.142 --> 01:04:57.192 No, I, I, I should. 01:04:58.092 --> 01:05:01.022 Dave Ry was a Aspery as Asper. 01:05:01.027 --> 01:05:01.032 Yeah. 01:05:01.502 --> 01:05:06.872 Dave Asprey was a, some sort of a Silicon Valley wonder guy and, and had, some sort 01:05:06.872 --> 01:05:11.042 of a startup company, which he sold in his early maybe thirties for a lot of money. 01:05:11.042 --> 01:05:12.572 And he had all this money and like, what am I gonna do with it? 01:05:12.572 --> 01:05:18.032 Well, he had been morbidly obese all his life and has tried every diet, 01:05:18.037 --> 01:05:22.472 every exercise planned, never couldn't lose weight, and you know, like didn't 01:05:23.702 --> 01:05:27.872 cut down on one bag of chips a day like he did the work, did like all 01:05:27.872 --> 01:05:29.102 sorts of workouts, weightlifting. 01:05:29.107 --> 01:05:33.362 Anyway, he had a lot of sports injuries from weightlifting, and he 01:05:33.362 --> 01:05:36.932 wrote this book called Game Changer. 01:05:38.017 --> 01:05:39.632 and he has a, he has a podcast. 01:05:39.632 --> 01:05:43.682 So on his podcast he interviewed like 300 people on his podcast and they're 01:05:43.682 --> 01:05:45.812 all game changers in their walk of life. 01:05:46.922 --> 01:05:51.122 And at the end of the podcast, he said, so what three things would you, what three 01:05:51.122 --> 01:05:52.322 bits of advice would you give people? 01:05:54.032 --> 01:05:57.842 And then he took all three bits of advice from 300 people and figured 01:05:57.842 --> 01:05:59.492 out what are the common denominators. 01:05:59.582 --> 01:06:01.292 And he wrote a book about it called Game Changers. 01:06:01.292 --> 01:06:04.142 And one of the first chapter was on a meditation practice. 01:06:04.142 --> 01:06:05.492 Everybody had a meditation practice. 01:06:05.492 --> 01:06:08.342 And as you go through the chapters goes down and things. 01:06:08.342 --> 01:06:11.522 Well, one of the things he was talking about in one of these chapters was, 01:06:12.782 --> 01:06:19.322 um, he said he'd been to a doctor in Silicon Valley who will draw fat out 01:06:19.322 --> 01:06:23.612 of you and spin off your stem cells and inject them into sports injuries like, 01:06:23.942 --> 01:06:27.662 so he said, I've had every joint in my body injected with my own stem cells. 01:06:27.662 --> 01:06:30.452 And he said, I feel like I'm, you know, I've had, my shoulders were 01:06:30.457 --> 01:06:33.272 jacked up from weight lifting and my knees were done from weight lifting. 01:06:33.272 --> 01:06:34.202 And he says, I feel great. 01:06:35.072 --> 01:06:36.122 I feel like I'm 18 again. 01:06:37.022 --> 01:06:40.502 He said, but there's something else this guy will do is he will pull fat 01:06:40.502 --> 01:06:44.192 out of you, spin off your stem cells and inject them into your vagus nerve 01:06:44.192 --> 01:06:47.492 and give you a complete emotional reset back to factory settings 01:06:47.492 --> 01:06:48.722 before whatever happened happened. 01:06:48.727 --> 01:06:53.762 And I'm like, Jimmy, I've been driving an hour each way twice a week to go to 01:06:53.762 --> 01:06:58.082 therapy for a year and I can just get an injection . And so I came home from that 01:06:58.082 --> 01:07:00.752 trip and I looked the guy up and he's just, you know, he's 45 minutes from. 01:07:01.787 --> 01:07:04.157 I made an appointment to have a phone consult with him. 01:07:04.157 --> 01:07:09.227 We talked for an hour on the phone and I told him what I wanted to do and he 01:07:09.227 --> 01:07:13.067 said, so we call that a St ganglion block, but we're not gonna do that with 01:07:13.067 --> 01:07:15.947 you cuz based on what you've told me, I'm gonna do something else with you. 01:07:16.337 --> 01:07:16.847 I'm like, okay. 01:07:16.847 --> 01:07:21.827 So we make an appointment for me to go in, uh, Rob and I go in, we spend probably 01:07:21.827 --> 01:07:23.207 an hour in his office chatting with him. 01:07:23.357 --> 01:07:24.497 Fascinating guy. 01:07:25.247 --> 01:07:28.967 Uh, then they take me into a room and hook me up to an IV of something called N 01:07:28.967 --> 01:07:30.877 A D, you know what N ad What's the name? 01:07:30.882 --> 01:07:30.917 What's 01:07:30.917 --> 01:07:31.007 the 01:07:31.012 --> 01:07:32.987 Rupert Isaacson: name of this guy who's doing the stem 01:07:32.987 --> 01:07:33.797 Warwick Schiller: cell injection? 01:07:33.827 --> 01:07:38.082 , his name is, I'll think of it in a minute. 01:07:38.082 --> 01:07:38.472 I'll look him up 01:07:38.982 --> 01:07:39.282 Rupert Isaacson: please. 01:07:40.152 --> 01:07:40.812 We'd all like to know. 01:07:43.152 --> 01:07:45.012 Warwick Schiller: It's in Dave Asbury's book about halfway through the book, but 01:07:45.012 --> 01:07:46.092 I'll think of his name here in a minute. 01:07:47.532 --> 01:07:50.922 And so they hooked me up to an IV of something called n A D. 01:07:50.922 --> 01:07:55.002 So n a d is a, if you dunno what n a d is, n a d is a co-factor. 01:07:55.032 --> 01:07:58.572 If you dunno what a co-factor is, neither do I, but it's something 01:07:58.572 --> 01:08:03.492 you were born with a certain amount of it, and as you age, it depletes 01:08:03.642 --> 01:08:05.772 drinking, depletes it quicker. 01:08:05.772 --> 01:08:07.182 And I used to drink three beers a day. 01:08:08.032 --> 01:08:13.462 and it has something to do with your gut brain neural pathway. 01:08:14.722 --> 01:08:14.992 Okay? 01:08:15.592 --> 01:08:18.652 And this n a d is supposed to help that. 01:08:18.652 --> 01:08:21.442 But, so I do four and a half hours of this n A d. 01:08:21.442 --> 01:08:23.302 And so they, it hurts when it goes in. 01:08:23.452 --> 01:08:26.482 What's interesting, like they put it in your arm, but it doesn't 01:08:26.482 --> 01:08:29.032 hurt where it goes in, it hurts in that part of your body that. 01:08:30.332 --> 01:08:30.572 . Interesting. 01:08:30.892 --> 01:08:34.222 And they get the drip towards, which in your case was where, where did it hurt? 01:08:34.822 --> 01:08:35.182 Gut. 01:08:35.872 --> 01:08:36.082 Okay. 01:08:37.072 --> 01:08:38.002 In my gut. 01:08:38.032 --> 01:08:42.172 And I had a, I had a messed up shoulder over here, and that shoulder hurt too. 01:08:42.172 --> 01:08:43.012 It was so fascinating. 01:08:43.042 --> 01:08:46.312 But they turn the drip to where you're about a five on the pain scale, five 01:08:46.317 --> 01:08:48.472 outta 10 on the pain scale any less. 01:08:48.472 --> 01:08:51.562 And that's gonna take too long anymore than, that's too much. 01:08:52.042 --> 01:08:56.092 But I felt physically sick to my stomach while this stuff was going in. 01:08:56.502 --> 01:08:56.992 Okay. 01:08:56.997 --> 01:08:59.422 Uh, anyway, they get done with that after about four and a half hours. 01:08:59.452 --> 01:09:03.502 Then he brings an, uh, gig energy healer in the room, and she sits down and they 01:09:03.502 --> 01:09:05.182 hook me up to an infusion of ketamine. 01:09:05.182 --> 01:09:07.702 And I had my first psychedelic experience. 01:09:08.152 --> 01:09:08.602 Why, 01:09:08.602 --> 01:09:09.172 Rupert Isaacson: why that? 01:09:09.172 --> 01:09:13.402 Why, why a cheong person to give you ketamine and why Ketamine. 01:09:13.582 --> 01:09:17.302 And why ke She didn't gimme the, after this n a d What, 01:09:17.302 --> 01:09:18.562 what was the logic process 01:09:18.562 --> 01:09:18.652 Warwick Schiller: there? 01:09:18.657 --> 01:09:20.962 You would have to ask the doctor, but it had to do with 01:09:20.962 --> 01:09:23.242 the, the being shut down stuff. 01:09:23.242 --> 01:09:25.552 That's his protocol for that. 01:09:25.592 --> 01:09:27.622 And the cheong energy healer didn't gimme the iv. 01:09:27.832 --> 01:09:30.152 She just sat with me in case I started to freak it out. 01:09:30.412 --> 01:09:30.622 Okay. 01:09:32.992 --> 01:09:33.562 Rupert Isaacson: So what happened? 01:09:33.672 --> 01:09:34.552 You, you, you take the 01:09:34.552 --> 01:09:37.192 Warwick Schiller: ketamine and take the ketamine and you just lay back 01:09:37.192 --> 01:09:40.912 in this recliner and it's like, it's a psychedelic, you know, it's 01:09:40.912 --> 01:09:45.622 a, it's a kaleidoscopic vision, the brightest colors you've ever seen. 01:09:45.622 --> 01:09:48.922 It's like it being in a kaleidoscopic rollercoaster is what it was like. 01:09:48.922 --> 01:09:51.052 And I'd never done anything to do with psychedelics, so I 01:09:51.052 --> 01:09:52.582 had no idea what I was in for. 01:09:53.452 --> 01:09:54.432 Rupert Isaacson: Were you distressed? 01:09:54.437 --> 01:09:55.012 Were you 01:09:55.062 --> 01:09:56.077 Warwick Schiller: uh, no, no. 01:09:56.077 --> 01:09:59.137 It was a very, like, they had this big smile on my face and it was 01:09:59.137 --> 01:10:01.687 like a very pleasant experience. 01:10:03.097 --> 01:10:06.607 , anyway, so then I get done with that go last for about 20 minutes. 01:10:06.612 --> 01:10:09.487 Robin's sitting over to the side of me watching me, and she said, 01:10:09.487 --> 01:10:10.687 I just lay there in the chair. 01:10:11.377 --> 01:10:16.777 And they said, okay, so your b your, your emotions should go offline 01:10:16.777 --> 01:10:19.357 for about eight hours, and in eight hours from now, they'll all kick in. 01:10:19.537 --> 01:10:21.337 And that was about four o'clock one afternoon. 01:10:21.337 --> 01:10:26.227 So we go home, , wake up, then the next morning, which is, you 01:10:26.227 --> 01:10:31.417 know, that's probably 14, 15 hours after I'd had it no different. 01:10:31.537 --> 01:10:34.477 And I said to Robin, oh, well that was a bust that didn't work. 01:10:35.287 --> 01:10:38.587 And I had to fly to Washington State that afternoon to d present 01:10:38.587 --> 01:10:39.817 at a horse expo on that weekend. 01:10:40.447 --> 01:10:43.387 And I was in San Jose airport sitting down about three o'clock in the afternoon. 01:10:43.387 --> 01:10:47.197 So almost 24 hours after I'd had this ketamine infusion. 01:10:47.197 --> 01:10:49.837 And all of a sudden I got this feeling in my abdomen. 01:10:49.837 --> 01:10:53.827 So think about this, the only emotions I'd experienced pretty much in my life 01:10:53.827 --> 01:10:58.087 that I can remember up to that point was heartbreak and being in love in my. 01:10:59.302 --> 01:10:59.542 Right. 01:10:59.542 --> 01:11:01.732 You feared dread in the pit of my stomach. 01:11:01.732 --> 01:11:03.382 That was the only, because I was, 01:11:03.592 --> 01:11:05.242 Rupert Isaacson: that was what I was gonna ask you is like, it's not 01:11:05.242 --> 01:11:06.262 that you had, didn't have emotions. 01:11:06.262 --> 01:11:10.942 You were obviously in love with, Robin, you pursued her, you chased her, you, you, 01:11:10.942 --> 01:11:14.122 you to some degree went back to America for, so I mean, it's not that you were 01:11:14.122 --> 01:11:20.362 emotionless, it's didn't have, you were emotion poor or so, is that what you said? 01:11:20.362 --> 01:11:20.752 Yes. 01:11:20.842 --> 01:11:21.022 Warwick Schiller: Yeah. 01:11:21.052 --> 01:11:21.172 Yeah. 01:11:21.172 --> 01:11:25.042 So heartbreak, being in love in my chest and fear and dread 01:11:25.172 --> 01:11:26.062 and the pit in my stomach. 01:11:26.067 --> 01:11:26.572 That's about it. 01:11:26.962 --> 01:11:27.022 Okay. 01:11:27.027 --> 01:11:28.462 That's about the extent of it. 01:11:29.032 --> 01:11:32.902 And so I'm sitting in this You mean airport ? You mean There's more sitting 01:11:32.902 --> 01:11:36.322 in San Jose airport the next afternoon and I get this feeling like there's 01:11:36.322 --> 01:11:40.312 an alien inside me and this energy and it moves around and it's in my, 01:11:41.272 --> 01:11:44.812 it's in my solar plexus, which I've never felt anything in there before. 01:11:44.817 --> 01:11:46.192 And it moves and it goes up and down. 01:11:46.192 --> 01:11:48.652 And as I'm walking around the airport, when I look at people, it changes 01:11:48.652 --> 01:11:49.882 and it goes here and it goes there. 01:11:49.882 --> 01:11:51.472 I'm like, what is this thing? 01:11:52.042 --> 01:11:54.532 And the strangest thing, I went to that horse expo and I 01:11:54.532 --> 01:11:55.912 had a booth at the horse expo. 01:11:55.912 --> 01:11:56.572 I did some demos. 01:11:56.572 --> 01:12:01.102 You know, I had a booth at the horse expo and that particular county in 01:12:01.107 --> 01:12:04.342 Washington, everybody takes their dogs everywhere, including the horse expo. 01:12:04.342 --> 01:12:05.182 So it was great. 01:12:05.187 --> 01:12:07.972 When I go away to a horse expo, I miss out dogs, so I don't see dogs. 01:12:07.972 --> 01:12:09.772 But there were dogs everywhere, people leading dogs around 01:12:09.777 --> 01:12:11.002 outside to say hi to all the dogs. 01:12:11.452 --> 01:12:15.142 But there was a lady there, had a cat on a leash, on a harness, and she's 01:12:15.142 --> 01:12:19.552 walked around with this cat and I was sitting at my booth in a chair behind 01:12:19.552 --> 01:12:22.062 the desk, the lady walks past with a cat. 01:12:22.067 --> 01:12:25.462 And this cat makes a beeline for me, jumps up on the disc and jumps in 01:12:25.462 --> 01:12:27.232 my lap and sucks up against my ab. 01:12:28.507 --> 01:12:31.657 And stays there for half an hour while I talk to the lady and the 01:12:31.657 --> 01:12:33.247 cat is just sucked up against me. 01:12:34.027 --> 01:12:36.097 And she said, the cat's never done this before. 01:12:36.907 --> 01:12:38.647 That cat sucked up against my abdomen. 01:12:38.652 --> 01:12:41.107 And in the end, you know, she talks for half an hour and she's gotta leave. 01:12:41.112 --> 01:12:43.357 She's actually gotta pick the cat up by the scruff of the neck, like 01:12:43.362 --> 01:12:45.877 a kitten to get the cat off my lap. 01:12:46.907 --> 01:12:54.767 but that was the first time I'd felt emotions, felt energy in my, in my body. 01:12:54.767 --> 01:12:56.267 Rupert Isaacson: And what were the emotions would you 01:12:56.267 --> 01:12:57.137 say that you were feeling? 01:12:58.547 --> 01:12:59.687 Warwick Schiller: Well, that's a good question. 01:12:59.687 --> 01:13:03.377 If you've never had, see how do you know what an emotion is? 01:13:04.157 --> 01:13:07.637 You have something happen, you have an energy inside you, and it's 01:13:07.642 --> 01:13:11.237 connected to, oh, we're at there, I was happy or at there I was sad or 01:13:11.237 --> 01:13:16.157 at, I've never had those, so what they meant to me, I had no idea. 01:13:16.637 --> 01:13:18.617 Rupert Isaacson: But were they were, did you feel they were positive or? 01:13:20.637 --> 01:13:20.757 Warwick Schiller: Positive. 01:13:20.987 --> 01:13:21.197 Okay. 01:13:21.197 --> 01:13:21.917 They were positive. 01:13:21.947 --> 01:13:22.917 Yes, they were positive. 01:13:22.922 --> 01:13:24.197 They weren't, they definitely weren't negative. 01:13:24.767 --> 01:13:28.037 but you know, if you gave me the whole scale of emotions and the 01:13:28.427 --> 01:13:30.917 positive emotions, it said, which one of these wasn't like, I got no idea. 01:13:30.917 --> 01:13:31.877 It was just, it 01:13:31.877 --> 01:13:32.057 Rupert Isaacson: was right. 01:13:32.057 --> 01:13:35.027 But you weren't suddenly beset with negative emotions, for example. 01:13:35.037 --> 01:13:35.867 No, no, no. 01:13:35.867 --> 01:13:37.877 It was, it was in the direction of joy. 01:13:37.882 --> 01:13:39.917 Warwick Schiller: No, I think I had a pretty good handle 01:13:39.917 --> 01:13:41.057 on the negative emotions. 01:13:41.297 --> 01:13:41.567 Right. 01:13:41.687 --> 01:13:43.757 Uh, but it was, for me, it was fascinating. 01:13:43.757 --> 01:13:46.247 Like, I've never felt this in my entire life. 01:13:46.247 --> 01:13:50.237 And I don't remember that class at school where the teacher said, okay, if you're 01:13:50.242 --> 01:13:53.567 a fully functioning human being, you will have these energies in your abdomen. 01:13:54.137 --> 01:13:56.417 They'll move up and down and here and there, and sometimes they'll feel 01:13:56.417 --> 01:13:57.827 good and sometimes they'll feel bad. 01:13:58.187 --> 01:13:59.447 Do you remember that class at school? 01:14:00.047 --> 01:14:01.367 No, because we don't have it. 01:14:01.367 --> 01:14:01.667 So, 01:14:02.057 --> 01:14:02.747 Rupert Isaacson: no. 01:14:02.747 --> 01:14:05.777 English schools when I was a boy, no. 01:14:05.877 --> 01:14:06.117 they, so, 01:14:06.387 --> 01:14:06.717 Warwick Schiller: you know what I mean? 01:14:06.717 --> 01:14:07.317 I remember that. 01:14:07.317 --> 01:14:07.737 But yeah. 01:14:07.787 --> 01:14:07.947 Yeah. 01:14:07.947 --> 01:14:08.907 I didn't know. 01:14:09.097 --> 01:14:11.097 I, I always thought emotions were thoughts. 01:14:11.247 --> 01:14:14.247 Like if, you know, if someone said, oh, someone ran over my dog, 01:14:14.247 --> 01:14:15.657 I'd go, oh, I feel sorry for you. 01:14:16.047 --> 01:14:18.237 I didn't feel sorry for them. 01:14:18.327 --> 01:14:19.977 I thought, sorry for them. 01:14:20.307 --> 01:14:22.917 In my head, I was like, oh, yes, that would not be good. 01:14:22.917 --> 01:14:30.567 But I didn't get a visceral sensation from someone saying, A truck went over my dog. 01:14:30.637 --> 01:14:32.787 I didn't, oh, I didn't feel it. 01:14:32.817 --> 01:14:34.557 Even though I would say, oh, I feel sorry for you. 01:14:34.797 --> 01:14:38.517 I didn't feel, and so it was fascinating for me to be, I 01:14:38.517 --> 01:14:39.897 was 50 years old at the time. 01:14:40.467 --> 01:14:41.277 Fascinating for me. 01:14:43.167 --> 01:14:46.137 At 50 years old have sensations in my body. 01:14:46.137 --> 01:14:49.947 I've never had, or at least I haven't had since before. 01:14:50.157 --> 01:14:54.777 Memory, you know, my earliest memories were about five, so before that, but 01:14:54.777 --> 01:14:57.657 things were pretty shut and, and stuck. 01:14:59.127 --> 01:15:03.627 And what was interesting was it was a psychedelic that got it working, which 01:15:03.627 --> 01:15:05.427 gave me an interest in psychedelics. 01:15:06.427 --> 01:15:07.597 I, you know, I had never thought it, 01:15:07.837 --> 01:15:09.787 Rupert Isaacson: was it psychedelic or was it the n a d do you think? 01:15:10.087 --> 01:15:11.317 Or the, the converter? 01:15:11.317 --> 01:15:11.519 It was the 01:15:11.524 --> 01:15:13.007 Warwick Schiller: psychedelic, probably the combo of the two, but yeah. 01:15:13.187 --> 01:15:16.517 And so my next, so after that I'm like, I'd heard a lot 01:15:16.522 --> 01:15:17.897 about this ayahuasca thing. 01:15:18.047 --> 01:15:21.397 And so the next thing I did was went to Florida to a, a 01:15:21.397 --> 01:15:22.837 three day ayahuasca ceremony. 01:15:24.667 --> 01:15:25.597 And that dipped away a bit. 01:15:25.597 --> 01:15:30.072 And I've, you know, I've tried, a number of different psychedelics 01:15:30.072 --> 01:15:30.432 Rupert Isaacson: since then. 01:15:30.437 --> 01:15:31.422 All Let's, let's go to the aas. 01:15:31.812 --> 01:15:33.132 What happens to you with the Ayahuasca? 01:15:33.402 --> 01:15:34.632 And again, explain. 01:15:34.932 --> 01:15:37.353 We, we tend to assume that people know what ayahuasca is. 01:15:37.452 --> 01:15:39.852 Let's assume that people dunno what ayahuasca is, what is it? 01:15:40.182 --> 01:15:40.512 And then 01:15:40.517 --> 01:15:45.082 Warwick Schiller: Aya Ayahuasca's a, a psychedelic from, I think it's 01:15:45.082 --> 01:15:46.462 from the Amazon Basin originally. 01:15:46.462 --> 01:15:50.602 And it's made from, it's made from two plants that grow in the Amazon. 01:15:50.602 --> 01:15:52.522 You think about it, there's a million different species of plants in the 01:15:52.522 --> 01:15:57.142 Amazon, and they take a vine and they take a leaf from a different plant. 01:15:57.142 --> 01:16:01.252 So there's a, one's a vine, one's a leaf, they put 'em in a pot, boil 'em together, 01:16:01.252 --> 01:16:04.552 and they take the vine, I think, and they bid it with a stick until it kind of 01:16:04.557 --> 01:16:06.442 goes into a mashy, puy sort of a thing. 01:16:08.887 --> 01:16:11.827 The most powerful psychedelic in the world is something 01:16:11.827 --> 01:16:13.657 called D m t Dimethyltryptamine. 01:16:13.887 --> 01:16:14.167 Yeah. 01:16:14.172 --> 01:16:17.167 And the combination of these two things. 01:16:17.167 --> 01:16:20.257 So one of the plants has the dimethyltryptamine in it, but you, 01:16:20.917 --> 01:16:24.397 your body can't access it until it's unlocked by this other plant. 01:16:24.402 --> 01:16:27.847 But what's interesting is, so the shamans in the Amazon would use this stuff 01:16:28.687 --> 01:16:30.777 to, to journey and things like that. 01:16:30.837 --> 01:16:34.347 But what's interesting is if they, you asked the, the shamans in the Amazon, 01:16:34.827 --> 01:16:38.547 how did you guys figure out how to, which two plants out of a million 01:16:38.907 --> 01:16:41.127 plant species to put together, how did you figure out how to do that? 01:16:41.127 --> 01:16:42.387 And they said, oh, that's easy. 01:16:42.387 --> 01:16:43.437 The plants told us. 01:16:43.497 --> 01:16:43.707 Yeah. 01:16:45.117 --> 01:16:51.807 and so you drink it, it's a black, dark, brown thick liquid 01:16:51.807 --> 01:16:53.787 that has the most bitter taste. 01:16:53.787 --> 01:16:54.537 It's foul. 01:16:55.227 --> 01:17:00.147 Um, you, you drink, you drink this liquid, and then probably an hour or 01:17:00.152 --> 01:17:03.777 so later you, you sit somewhere or lay somewhere and about an hour or so later, 01:17:03.777 --> 01:17:06.867 you start having this inward journey. 01:17:06.897 --> 01:17:15.147 And really, what the ayahuasca, at least for me, what it did was it peels you 01:17:15.147 --> 01:17:20.847 opened where you look into all the dark places that, and this was for me at least, 01:17:21.327 --> 01:17:25.617 all the dark places and all the shame and the self-loathing and stuff that you have, 01:17:26.307 --> 01:17:28.467 that you've never, that you've avoided. 01:17:29.472 --> 01:17:32.592 Looking at, for me, it took me there and I think all the psychedelics 01:17:32.592 --> 01:17:33.972 have done, have taken me there. 01:17:34.182 --> 01:17:36.252 Um, with the, with the exception of the ketamine. 01:17:39.312 --> 01:17:40.812 Yeah, the ketamine, there was none of that. 01:17:40.812 --> 01:17:41.982 There was, there was none of that. 01:17:41.982 --> 01:17:45.102 All it was was just this kaleidoscopic. 01:17:46.542 --> 01:17:47.742 But there was no self-judgment. 01:17:47.742 --> 01:17:49.872 There was no, yeah, there was none of that in that. 01:17:49.872 --> 01:17:53.262 But anyway, so the Ayahuasca, it was three separate ceremonies. 01:17:53.262 --> 01:17:55.572 One Friday night, one Saturday lunchtime, one Saturday night. 01:17:56.592 --> 01:17:59.852 And, , yeah, that was part of the start of my healing journey, I think. 01:18:00.212 --> 01:18:03.722 Rupert Isaacson: Now, when it took you, when it took you down into self-loathing 01:18:03.752 --> 01:18:07.472 and shame, did that bring, why did that not bring you into despair? 01:18:07.522 --> 01:18:10.432 why did that not make you wanna harm yourself in some way? 01:18:10.942 --> 01:18:12.082 Punish yourself in some way? 01:18:12.082 --> 01:18:13.642 What, how was 01:18:13.642 --> 01:18:14.292 Warwick Schiller: that positive? 01:18:15.862 --> 01:18:20.772 Well, what the ayahuasca does, so when you, even before you take the Ayahuasca, 01:18:20.772 --> 01:18:24.742 they give you a small waste paper bin, plastic waste paper bin a hold. 01:18:24.742 --> 01:18:26.062 And they said, don't go anywhere without that. 01:18:26.872 --> 01:18:30.592 And what happens with the ayahuasca is stuck. 01:18:30.652 --> 01:18:35.092 Emotions come up in your, like in your abdomen. 01:18:35.872 --> 01:18:39.292 , and you, they, they come up as emotions and then you purge them. 01:18:39.292 --> 01:18:42.142 So you, there's a lot of puking with ayahuasca. 01:18:43.162 --> 01:18:47.422 and, you know, so you'd be, you know, fear, self-loathing, shame, 01:18:47.422 --> 01:18:51.982 whatever it is, will come up in your mind and then you feel it in your. 01:18:53.842 --> 01:18:57.952 And then you purge that and it, and it, yeah, it is working 01:18:57.952 --> 01:18:59.662 through stuff, you know, 01:19:00.142 --> 01:19:02.662 Rupert Isaacson: and when you purge it, does that feel cathartic? 01:19:03.052 --> 01:19:03.262 Yes. 01:19:03.262 --> 01:19:04.012 Is there a joy? 01:19:04.732 --> 01:19:05.482 Warwick Schiller: Yes. 01:19:05.812 --> 01:19:06.142 Yes. 01:19:06.142 --> 01:19:07.852 It's like, I've finally got that thing outta me, but then, 01:19:07.852 --> 01:19:08.992 then the next one comes up. 01:19:08.997 --> 01:19:09.292 All right. 01:19:09.442 --> 01:19:09.742 Okay. 01:19:09.862 --> 01:19:15.472 You know, some people, some people with ayahuasca just have, they have experiences 01:19:15.472 --> 01:19:19.192 to where they have interactions with other beings, other entities, 01:19:19.282 --> 01:19:21.172 the universe, the divine, whatever. 01:19:21.652 --> 01:19:22.972 I have not ever had that. 01:19:22.972 --> 01:19:28.102 All mine has been, all of my experiences have been like, fear, 01:19:28.312 --> 01:19:29.992 shame, wording, all that sort of stuff. 01:19:30.022 --> 01:19:30.562 You've gone 01:19:30.562 --> 01:19:31.882 Rupert Isaacson: back and done ayahuasca since 01:19:31.882 --> 01:19:32.902 Warwick Schiller: this first time? 01:19:32.902 --> 01:19:33.322 No, I haven't. 01:19:33.502 --> 01:19:33.982 No I haven't. 01:19:34.342 --> 01:19:36.532 But I have done some other, , plant medicines 01:19:36.712 --> 01:19:39.382 Rupert Isaacson: and those plant, those same plant med, the other plant medicines 01:19:39.382 --> 01:19:42.232 have also taken you to, to shame and self. 01:19:42.412 --> 01:19:42.562 Warwick Schiller: Yeah. 01:19:42.892 --> 01:19:45.712 Dark, dark places, but, but worked through them. 01:19:45.812 --> 01:19:50.122 last year I did a, they call a God dose of mushrooms, of psilocybin 01:19:50.122 --> 01:19:53.632 mushrooms, like five and a half grams, which is a big dose. 01:19:53.782 --> 01:19:58.522 And yeah, there was a lot of similar stuff. 01:19:59.602 --> 01:20:03.892 And what I, what being emotionally stuck, I've always thought that what 01:20:03.892 --> 01:20:07.702 was gonna happen with any of these plant medicines with me is I was gonna 01:20:07.702 --> 01:20:11.362 have this big cathartic released where I was gonna cry and ball my eyes out. 01:20:11.947 --> 01:20:14.077 Like really sobbing. 01:20:14.077 --> 01:20:15.997 And that has not happened. 01:20:16.002 --> 01:20:18.427 And I keep kind of judging these experiences cuz they haven't happened. 01:20:18.427 --> 01:20:21.767 But with the, the, psilocybin was last year. 01:20:21.897 --> 01:20:24.477 So I had, I had two guides with me, a husband and wife. 01:20:25.137 --> 01:20:28.287 you know, so this was this, you know, with psychedelics they talk about set 01:20:28.292 --> 01:20:32.157 and setting and, and this was, you know, we had the intention of healing. 01:20:32.157 --> 01:20:33.327 This is what we're gonna do. 01:20:33.787 --> 01:20:36.757 I was actually on a camp stretcher in the middle of a pasture under a tree. 01:20:37.597 --> 01:20:40.297 And we had a play, a playlist of music. 01:20:40.757 --> 01:20:44.087 I took the medicine as a tea and then it started to hit. 01:20:44.207 --> 01:20:47.087 Come in, I lay on the thing and the, the lady she sat beside, first 01:20:47.087 --> 01:20:49.037 Rupert Isaacson: time you'd ever done mushrooms and you take the God ducks. 01:20:49.217 --> 01:20:49.337 Yeah. 01:20:49.877 --> 01:20:50.147 Warwick Schiller: Yeah. 01:20:50.657 --> 01:20:50.897 Okay. 01:20:51.737 --> 01:20:55.777 And she talks me through a, like a, like a, a breath work. 01:20:56.467 --> 01:21:00.127 Cuz when the start of the, the psilocybin kicks in, it can be kind of scary. 01:21:00.127 --> 01:21:03.667 And so she kind of had led me through this breath work till I got through the, 01:21:04.207 --> 01:21:05.797 well, supposedly through the scary part. 01:21:06.367 --> 01:21:07.347 But, Gary than a. 01:21:09.280 --> 01:21:10.180 I'd say different. 01:21:10.180 --> 01:21:11.530 I wouldn't, I think fear is fear. 01:21:11.530 --> 01:21:11.800 No. 01:21:11.800 --> 01:21:12.490 Not more scary. 01:21:12.490 --> 01:21:13.210 Not less scary. 01:21:13.240 --> 01:21:13.680 Yeah. 01:21:14.950 --> 01:21:18.220 Probably, actually, probably more scary cuz the, I was, the scary part was 01:21:18.220 --> 01:21:22.660 just the looking at my own fear and loathing and all that sort of stuff. 01:21:22.660 --> 01:21:26.440 Whereas this was actually a scary situation. 01:21:26.510 --> 01:21:29.710 But, so she sat there with me and if I needed her to hold 01:21:29.710 --> 01:21:30.580 my hand, she'd hold my hand. 01:21:30.580 --> 01:21:33.880 At one point in time, I had a, like, I had a blanket over me and I had her 01:21:34.330 --> 01:21:36.160 hopping beside me and like, spoon me. 01:21:36.160 --> 01:21:39.940 And, you know, I felt I needed that feminine energy there, but I kept telling 01:21:39.940 --> 01:21:42.970 her, it's not happening, it's not coming. 01:21:43.060 --> 01:21:43.810 It's not coming. 01:21:43.810 --> 01:21:47.950 I'm not, I'm, I, I feel like I should be crying and I'm not. 01:21:49.210 --> 01:21:53.320 but anyway, so the next day I was somewhere and I took a breath, took 01:21:53.325 --> 01:21:56.680 a big, deep breath in, and, you know, all my life I've been able to 01:21:56.680 --> 01:21:58.780 take a certain depth of breath in. 01:21:58.780 --> 01:21:59.950 And that's my breath, you know? 01:22:00.550 --> 01:22:08.170 Well this, the next day I took this breath in and in and in and in. 01:22:08.290 --> 01:22:12.670 It's like something had let go in my abdomen that had been clamping, that 01:22:12.675 --> 01:22:17.710 had that not allowed me to take a full breath ever in my entire life. 01:22:19.030 --> 01:22:21.370 And I breathed in and in and in and in and in. 01:22:21.610 --> 01:22:23.590 And it was almost twice as big a breath as I've ever taken. 01:22:23.590 --> 01:22:27.520 And when I let that breath out, I completely relaxed. 01:22:27.520 --> 01:22:27.760 Like. 01:22:29.335 --> 01:22:32.305 And that relaxed feeling was like, I dunno if I've ever felt 01:22:32.305 --> 01:22:33.475 that relaxed in my entire life. 01:22:33.475 --> 01:22:37.285 So something during that journey, let go. 01:22:37.945 --> 01:22:39.115 somewhere in there. 01:22:41.035 --> 01:22:42.025 Rupert Isaacson: This was how long ago? 01:22:43.075 --> 01:22:44.635 Mm, last July, I think. 01:22:44.845 --> 01:22:45.175 Okay. 01:22:45.745 --> 01:22:50.345 When we worked together in the sweat lodge, with the pay ot, did you 01:22:50.345 --> 01:22:53.105 feel shame and self-loathing then? 01:22:53.585 --> 01:22:55.335 Warwick Schiller: No, I didn't journey at all there. 01:22:55.535 --> 01:22:56.135 I didn't, it 01:22:56.135 --> 01:22:57.335 Rupert Isaacson: didn't seem to me that you did. 01:22:57.815 --> 01:22:59.675 Warwick Schiller: No, I didn't, I didn't journey at all then. 01:22:59.675 --> 01:23:05.735 I was, you know, I was probably a bit too in my head there, you know, like we, 01:23:05.735 --> 01:23:07.145 I've never done a sweat lodge before. 01:23:07.145 --> 01:23:10.565 I have no idea how they, how they work and, you know, and the, the 01:23:10.565 --> 01:23:14.045 shaman guy says, okay, so you've, you know, we're gonna sing a 01:23:14.045 --> 01:23:15.605 song, you know, what's your song? 01:23:15.605 --> 01:23:16.655 And you sing a song. 01:23:16.655 --> 01:23:18.185 And Joel sang a song. 01:23:18.185 --> 01:23:20.725 And I'm like, I'm s sitting there thinking, uh, what should I sing? 01:23:20.725 --> 01:23:22.135 No, no, I don't have a song and I can't sing. 01:23:22.135 --> 01:23:25.225 I, I suck at singing anyway, you know, but what if I sing? 01:23:25.405 --> 01:23:27.595 I could sing a song, but no, but it might not be the right song 01:23:27.595 --> 01:23:28.615 and they might think I'm stupid. 01:23:28.795 --> 01:23:29.755 You know, all of that. 01:23:29.755 --> 01:23:35.785 So I was really in my head in that, that, in that whole, experience. 01:23:38.365 --> 01:23:38.905 Rupert Isaacson: Interesting. 01:23:38.905 --> 01:23:42.945 Because for me what happened there was, first it felt like a small little 01:23:44.535 --> 01:23:49.135 infrared tracking device, like you'd get in a PowerPoint going through my body. 01:23:50.300 --> 01:23:52.970 . and it stopped at every point where there was physical pain. 01:23:53.840 --> 01:23:53.960 Mm-hmm. 01:23:54.200 --> 01:23:56.150 of injuries and stiffnesses and that sort of thing. 01:23:56.180 --> 01:23:58.310 And we're just gonna go, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. 01:23:58.910 --> 01:24:01.640 And then that pain would go and then it would move on. 01:24:02.240 --> 01:24:06.380 And when it had, gone through my obvious spots, my mostly on my right 01:24:06.380 --> 01:24:14.210 side, it went up into my brain and it went to every area of my brain that, I 01:24:14.210 --> 01:24:17.660 was feeling difficulty in blockage. 01:24:18.110 --> 01:24:22.430 And we go, beep, beep, beep gone, and then we'll move on. 01:24:22.880 --> 01:24:27.340 And, I remember thinking, well, this is, this is wonderful, but it won't last. 01:24:28.840 --> 01:24:29.800 It totally lasted. 01:24:31.360 --> 01:24:36.880 so it's interesting the different experiences I have not done, D M 01:24:36.880 --> 01:24:42.910 T except possibly the natural D M T that gets produced in the human brain. 01:24:42.910 --> 01:24:46.120 Those of you who don't know, you don't have to take a plant. 01:24:46.400 --> 01:24:51.950 although it's very difficult to induce enough D M T in your brain to have those 01:24:53.020 --> 01:24:56.750 religious experiences, what people would call them, but your pineal gland, which 01:24:56.750 --> 01:25:02.960 produces your melatonin, the melatonin can under certain conditions if it gets 01:25:02.960 --> 01:25:06.530 enough squeezing with ceal spinal fluid. 01:25:06.630 --> 01:25:10.590 Transduce energy can transduce, into the, the crystals that 01:25:10.590 --> 01:25:11.640 are inside the pineal ground. 01:25:11.640 --> 01:25:15.630 It'll salt crystals and they'll throw up a, a high electric charge that 01:25:15.635 --> 01:25:18.420 will change the melatonin into D M T. 01:25:18.960 --> 01:25:24.900 And then that transduction of energy can make people see things 01:25:25.020 --> 01:25:26.370 or hear things or whatever. 01:25:26.550 --> 01:25:29.155 And some people say, oh, well that's not real then it's just the D M T. 01:25:29.370 --> 01:25:33.720 Or one could say, ah, is the D M T allowing you to see 01:25:33.720 --> 01:25:35.730 and hear what is coming in? 01:25:36.210 --> 01:25:37.560 The answer is, we don't know. 01:25:37.560 --> 01:25:42.180 But, that seems to be a process with, well, we, we know it's a 01:25:42.180 --> 01:25:43.380 process within the human body. 01:25:43.770 --> 01:25:47.910 What's interesting to me is that when you've gone down this road with D M 01:25:47.915 --> 01:25:51.900 T, which for those who haven't, it's extreme, without a doubt, it's extreme. 01:25:52.710 --> 01:25:55.470 and despite the fact that it's taken you to some dark places, 01:25:55.860 --> 01:25:59.340 why do you think that it hasn't taken you to the point of despair? 01:26:00.390 --> 01:26:05.150 Why has it not taken you to, bad trip psychosis, that sort of thing? 01:26:08.420 --> 01:26:09.290 Warwick Schiller: That's a great question. 01:26:09.295 --> 01:26:17.870 I, I, I don't, I dunno that, I have no idea about that, but I do wanna, 01:26:17.870 --> 01:26:19.100 I didn wanna talk about d m T. 01:26:19.100 --> 01:26:20.150 You were talking about Indigo. 01:26:21.110 --> 01:26:23.420 Have you ever read a book called D m t The Spirit Molecule? 01:26:23.750 --> 01:26:27.450 I have not By a document, by Rick Straussman. 01:26:27.890 --> 01:26:32.555 Rick Straussman, and he's a, you know, PhD, Dr. 01:26:32.555 --> 01:26:32.795 Dude. 01:26:32.795 --> 01:26:37.115 And so back in the eighties, he eighties and nineties, he got 01:26:37.115 --> 01:26:42.385 government approval to do high dose, experiments on people with dmt. 01:26:42.385 --> 01:26:42.665 Okay. 01:26:43.395 --> 01:26:48.075 And so, and that was a bit of, a bit of a circle jerk to where the DEA would 01:26:48.075 --> 01:26:50.175 give approval if the F FDA gave approval. 01:26:50.180 --> 01:26:52.755 The F FDA A would only give approval that he could find someone who could 01:26:53.115 --> 01:26:59.125 synthesize, human quality D M T, but he couldn't find anybody who would 01:26:59.125 --> 01:27:03.145 human who synthesize human quality D M T until he got approval from the F fda. 01:27:03.145 --> 01:27:04.555 And it was this big old circle joke. 01:27:04.555 --> 01:27:07.675 But anyway, he ends up getting it. 01:27:07.725 --> 01:27:09.975 and he does all these experiments with people and, you know, it 01:27:09.975 --> 01:27:10.995 was like a double blind study. 01:27:10.995 --> 01:27:14.475 So sometimes you got a placebo dose, sometimes you got a low dose 01:27:14.475 --> 01:27:15.825 and sometimes you got a high dose. 01:27:16.605 --> 01:27:22.125 And what was interesting was the experiences of pretty much everybody who 01:27:22.130 --> 01:27:28.065 had the high dose were all very much the same reported experience that people have 01:27:28.065 --> 01:27:30.495 when they say they're abducted by aliens. 01:27:32.595 --> 01:27:39.005 And it's funny, most alien abductions, happen about two or three o'clock 01:27:39.005 --> 01:27:44.195 in the morning, usually two people who have been under a lot of stress. 01:27:44.285 --> 01:27:47.975 And apparently your pineal gland is most active at about two or 01:27:47.975 --> 01:27:48.905 three o'clock in the morning. 01:27:48.905 --> 01:27:51.725 And stress does cause more of that. 01:27:54.500 --> 01:27:57.410 The end of the book, he gets the point to where he says, you know, you can give 01:27:57.410 --> 01:28:03.650 someone an anti narcotic so they can't experience any feelings, anything from 01:28:03.650 --> 01:28:08.750 a narcotic, or you can give someone an anti psychedelic and if you give 01:28:08.755 --> 01:28:11.690 someone an anti psychedelic, so what he's saying is, we have a certain amount 01:28:11.690 --> 01:28:13.400 of D M T in our bodies at all times. 01:28:13.640 --> 01:28:13.790 Right? 01:28:13.820 --> 01:28:16.880 If you give someone an anti psychedelic, that means that the d m 01:28:16.880 --> 01:28:20.720 t that is in your body at the moment you are, it's not affecting you. 01:28:21.440 --> 01:28:26.210 You give someone an anti psychedelic, they go immediately into severe depression. 01:28:26.240 --> 01:28:28.140 The world is just blah. 01:28:29.240 --> 01:28:29.730 Okay? 01:28:31.760 --> 01:28:33.200 So that, that's no D M T. 01:28:33.510 --> 01:28:39.290 Then the world that we currently live in and we can see is the 01:28:39.295 --> 01:28:40.850 amount of DMT our brain puts out. 01:28:41.630 --> 01:28:41.990 Okay? 01:28:42.380 --> 01:28:46.310 But then, and, and thinking about if you had an FM radio in the room right there 01:28:46.315 --> 01:28:49.790 with you, you could turn it on and it could pick up those radio waves that are 01:28:49.790 --> 01:28:53.420 going between you and me that you can't see, but they're there, right As the 01:28:53.420 --> 01:28:54.680 bald sort, the music playing isn't there. 01:28:55.160 --> 01:29:00.680 So then, so at the end of the book, he said, and so what happens is like if 01:29:00.680 --> 01:29:04.400 you give someone the anti psychedelic, they have, they're depressed. 01:29:05.000 --> 01:29:07.610 There is no, there's nothing coming in from the outside world. 01:29:08.420 --> 01:29:11.570 What we are currently having right now is the amount of D M T in our brain, which 01:29:11.570 --> 01:29:14.090 allows us to view this level of the world. 01:29:14.960 --> 01:29:19.820 If you have huge amounts of D M T and you, you get to, you 01:29:19.820 --> 01:29:22.220 get the ability to be aware. 01:29:22.820 --> 01:29:26.510 Other stuff that's going on here right now that you can't detect with the amount 01:29:26.510 --> 01:29:30.380 of D m t we have in our bodies, but like radio waves, like there's all these 01:29:30.380 --> 01:29:31.850 radio, there's all this stuff going on. 01:29:32.060 --> 01:29:35.420 Unless you've got an FM receiver or a TV with rabbit ears, whatever, you can't pick 01:29:35.420 --> 01:29:37.100 it up, but it doesn't mean it's not there. 01:29:37.580 --> 01:29:37.760 Yeah, 01:29:37.765 --> 01:29:38.150 Rupert Isaacson: no, absolutely. 01:29:38.150 --> 01:29:38.960 It makes perfect sense. 01:29:38.960 --> 01:29:41.805 I mean, and we know there's more, colors on the light spectrum. 01:29:42.105 --> 01:29:43.275 We know that infrared exists. 01:29:43.275 --> 01:29:45.375 We know that blue light exists and we know that there are others. 01:29:45.845 --> 01:29:48.695 and we've created devices that can pick them up, but there are only some of them. 01:29:49.055 --> 01:29:53.055 We know that elephants, communicate long distance with, frequency so low 01:29:53.055 --> 01:29:56.175 that we can't hear them, but we have created devices that can detect it. 01:29:56.685 --> 01:30:03.915 We know that all, we suspect that the other dimensions are microscopic and could 01:30:03.915 --> 01:30:05.805 be so small that they're undetectable. 01:30:06.225 --> 01:30:10.865 We know now that there are things, other types of matter like neutrinos that are 01:30:10.865 --> 01:30:14.045 passing through our body, through trillion neutrinos are passing through our bodies 01:30:14.045 --> 01:30:17.825 and through the house at any moment that part of the, what they call the weak 01:30:17.825 --> 01:30:22.115 force in physics, there's a strong force that binds things together, protons 01:30:22.115 --> 01:30:23.435 and electrons and that sort of thing. 01:30:23.825 --> 01:30:26.885 And then there's the weak force that allows things to move fluidly. 01:30:27.245 --> 01:30:29.945 We don't quite yet understand the dance between them, but we 01:30:29.945 --> 01:30:32.495 know that there are, these things exist, but we can't see neutrinos. 01:30:33.275 --> 01:30:37.065 We just now know that they're there, through, the physics of the last 01:30:37.065 --> 01:30:38.205 20 years and that sort of thing. 01:30:38.205 --> 01:30:40.245 So yes, without a doubt. 01:30:42.090 --> 01:30:44.460 We are aware of so much more. 01:30:44.460 --> 01:30:48.720 And it is interesting, those, those we're, we're aware of so much more 01:30:48.720 --> 01:30:50.400 when we can become aware of it. 01:30:50.580 --> 01:30:54.100 What's interesting to me is, as you know, as some of the listeners might know, 01:30:54.550 --> 01:30:59.850 I lived with, , hunting and gathering tribes, in the Kalahari of Southern 01:30:59.850 --> 01:31:06.430 Africa, Bushman, sun Bushman, and was at, and the recipient of, you know, 01:31:06.430 --> 01:31:09.950 many healings and then subsequently with my artistic sun and so on and so on. 01:31:10.810 --> 01:31:16.320 And, what's interesting about when those cultures, when they're going 01:31:16.320 --> 01:31:20.160 into an altered state of consciousness, it's not that it's not an amazing 01:31:20.165 --> 01:31:22.740 thing, and it's not that they don't regard it as an amazing thing. 01:31:22.745 --> 01:31:27.480 And it's not that they don't regard the frankly un 01:31:27.510 --> 01:31:30.240 inexplicable healings that happen. 01:31:30.240 --> 01:31:31.020 And they do happen. 01:31:31.710 --> 01:31:36.010 People get sick and get better from really quite extreme things, and 01:31:36.010 --> 01:31:39.250 have done for hundreds of thousands of years using these techniques. 01:31:39.350 --> 01:31:46.580 ias would also be one, but for them, they are also part of the ordinary, or 01:31:46.580 --> 01:31:49.790 let's say the ordinary is extraordinary and the extraordinary is ordinary. 01:31:49.790 --> 01:31:53.240 And one of the things which I think all of us who've ever gone down to 01:31:53.240 --> 01:31:58.040 those areas notices pretty much right away is that unless some bastards 01:31:58.040 --> 01:32:00.710 are coming in there and stealing your land and raping your women and 01:32:00.950 --> 01:32:04.565 cutting down your forest, Life is good. 01:32:04.625 --> 01:32:07.115 And it's not just good because you have enough resources. 01:32:07.565 --> 01:32:11.735 It's good because there's a certain level of joy, in this original human 01:32:11.735 --> 01:32:16.325 lifestyle, which seems completely taken up with viewing the world in this way 01:32:16.415 --> 01:32:18.305 and seeing it through the D m T lens. 01:32:18.995 --> 01:32:24.375 we of course, post agriculture shut all that down, because it gets in the way. 01:32:24.375 --> 01:32:29.115 If I want to be the patriarch of the church and I want people to pay taxes 01:32:29.120 --> 01:32:32.625 to me, and I want people to go and fight my battles and my wars, or I want 01:32:32.625 --> 01:32:36.675 to be king, or I want to be the Duke of, you know, Lord Puff buttock over 01:32:36.675 --> 01:32:41.455 there, and I want to go to war with, you know, Lord, big nose over there. 01:32:41.785 --> 01:32:46.075 And I got to persuade my surfs to go fight for me who are already 01:32:46.735 --> 01:32:48.265 effectively enslaved and so on. 01:32:48.270 --> 01:32:53.365 I've got to reduce them to a sense of depression where their only 01:32:53.370 --> 01:32:55.735 outlet for passion is violence. 01:32:56.575 --> 01:33:00.115 And this, of course is how we've run our societies. 01:33:00.115 --> 01:33:04.615 And I think when we go back to horse training, to some degree, 01:33:04.615 --> 01:33:05.755 that's what we all grew up with. 01:33:05.755 --> 01:33:08.965 I mean, we, you know, we, we, we, in fact, we inherited our horse 01:33:08.970 --> 01:33:12.275 training from the military, and we went through school systems that were 01:33:12.335 --> 01:33:13.925 inherited from the military and so on. 01:33:14.495 --> 01:33:15.725 So it's very interesting. 01:33:16.745 --> 01:33:19.775 Is it, you know, the God gene or the God molecule as you said, 01:33:21.125 --> 01:33:23.615 is it, is it a joy in molecule? 01:33:23.945 --> 01:33:24.575 Is, is. 01:33:25.850 --> 01:33:31.040 Is the emotion that you were not feeling joy? 01:33:35.900 --> 01:33:37.520 Warwick Schiller: Well, I think it was all the higher emotions, but 01:33:37.520 --> 01:33:41.300 I just wanna talk a bit more about that book d into the spirit molecule. 01:33:41.570 --> 01:33:45.320 So the pioneer gland is the only part of the brain. 01:33:45.320 --> 01:33:48.710 So it's, it's the, it's above the roof of the mouth. 01:33:49.190 --> 01:33:51.680 It's the only part of the brain that's not made up of brain tissue, 01:33:53.690 --> 01:33:56.690 but, and it forms on day 49. 01:33:58.070 --> 01:33:58.340 Okay? 01:33:58.640 --> 01:34:03.200 The pineal gland forms on day 49, and apparently that's the day, whether it 01:34:03.200 --> 01:34:06.680 says you're gonna be a boy or girl, your chromosomes do your things. 01:34:07.580 --> 01:34:08.990 Okay, got that. 01:34:09.860 --> 01:34:13.430 Now I'm gonna jump ship on dmt the spirit molecule and go to the 01:34:13.430 --> 01:34:14.690 way the Buddhist look at things. 01:34:14.690 --> 01:34:15.980 So you know what the bardo is? 01:34:16.400 --> 01:34:16.640 No. 01:34:17.750 --> 01:34:23.150 So in the Buddhist tradition, the bardo is the 49 days that you spend 01:34:23.150 --> 01:34:26.900 without, uh, as a soul, without a body before you come back again. 01:34:27.530 --> 01:34:27.920 Okay? 01:34:28.730 --> 01:34:28.970 Okay. 01:34:29.270 --> 01:34:29.960 So once you die, 01:34:29.960 --> 01:34:30.760 Rupert Isaacson: in which Buddhist tradition? 01:34:30.765 --> 01:34:32.150 In in Tibetan, 01:34:32.150 --> 01:34:32.600 Warwick Schiller: no idea. 01:34:32.870 --> 01:34:33.050 Okay. 01:34:33.140 --> 01:34:33.620 No idea. 01:34:34.250 --> 01:34:34.910 I've just read this. 01:34:34.915 --> 01:34:36.230 I'm the scholar on this stuff. 01:34:36.410 --> 01:34:36.890 Sounds too bad. 01:34:37.370 --> 01:34:39.860 This 49 day thing, okay. 01:34:40.640 --> 01:34:45.200 49 days after that fetus is conceived, it decides if it's 01:34:45.200 --> 01:34:46.220 gonna become a boy or girl. 01:34:47.300 --> 01:34:51.800 The pineal gland starts developing then, and. 01:34:52.460 --> 01:34:58.370 The Budds say that 49 days after you die, you, you, your soul lives 01:34:58.370 --> 01:35:02.570 in the bardo, which is this place without a soul, without a human 01:35:02.575 --> 01:35:03.890 form, without a physical form. 01:35:03.890 --> 01:35:07.940 And then on day 49, you get given your next physical form. 01:35:07.940 --> 01:35:10.070 So you know, a little bit of something to think about. 01:35:10.130 --> 01:35:11.360 Something else about D M T. 01:35:11.360 --> 01:35:14.990 Have you ever read a book called The Cosmic Serpent? 01:35:16.040 --> 01:35:16.310 Rupert Isaacson: Nope. 01:35:16.580 --> 01:35:19.670 I'm writing these down and at the end, so the cosmic serpent tell 01:35:19.670 --> 01:35:21.080 us about all these books in order 01:35:21.770 --> 01:35:26.120 Warwick Schiller: this anthropologist guy goes to the Peru to study the tribes 01:35:26.120 --> 01:35:29.960 there, and while he is there, they end up talking to him to doing, uh, ayahuasca. 01:35:30.440 --> 01:35:31.220 Is this Way Dead? 01:35:33.470 --> 01:35:36.230 Oh, sounds familiar. 01:35:36.680 --> 01:35:37.730 Rupert Isaacson: Anyway, keep, keep going. 01:35:38.390 --> 01:35:39.890 Yeah, we can look it up as we talk. 01:35:40.886 --> 01:35:41.366 Warwick Schiller: no. 01:35:41.726 --> 01:35:41.996 All right. 01:35:43.826 --> 01:35:45.206 Jeremy Nay is 01:35:45.206 --> 01:35:46.496 Rupert Isaacson: who the book Jeremy Nay. 01:35:46.496 --> 01:35:49.816 Cosmic Serpent because, , the Serpent and the Rainbow by, , Wayback 01:35:49.816 --> 01:35:51.076 is worth, is worth a look at. 01:35:51.166 --> 01:35:51.676 Okay, but go on 01:35:51.856 --> 01:35:52.306 Warwick Schiller: Jeremy. 01:35:53.116 --> 01:35:58.006 Yeah, so the cosmic serpent and, and so he, he has this AO Oscar experience 01:35:58.011 --> 01:36:03.976 and he sees snakes, intertwined snakes in this vision that he has 01:36:04.246 --> 01:36:06.016 very colorful, intertwined snakes. 01:36:06.526 --> 01:36:08.626 And then he sees these ladders as well. 01:36:08.866 --> 01:36:12.576 And then he, you know, Over the years, he starts researching. 01:36:12.576 --> 01:36:15.976 He gets this idea about altered states of consciousness, whether 01:36:15.976 --> 01:36:19.966 it was from ayahuasca or meditation or chanting or whatever it is. 01:36:20.356 --> 01:36:24.406 But in all of the, the shamanic traditions, there is always 01:36:24.406 --> 01:36:26.356 these intertwined snakes. 01:36:26.656 --> 01:36:26.806 Yeah. 01:36:27.196 --> 01:36:29.716 Even in Siberia. 01:36:30.746 --> 01:36:31.236 Okay. 01:36:31.516 --> 01:36:35.336 Where snakes don't exist, the, they've the, you know, the people of Siberia 01:36:35.336 --> 01:36:39.506 had never seen a snake, but part of their tradition of, from the shamans 01:36:39.506 --> 01:36:42.176 is there's this intertwined snakes. 01:36:42.836 --> 01:36:48.806 And so then he takes a bit of a turn and he basically says that when they 01:36:50.006 --> 01:36:55.466 decipher d n A, you know, and the two guys that figured out that decoded 01:36:55.466 --> 01:37:01.361 the D, the d n a, what he's, what he's trying to say in his book is that, We 01:37:01.361 --> 01:37:05.951 had to see it under a microscope, whereas the, all the shamans for centuries 01:37:05.951 --> 01:37:11.561 back for eon, you know, millenniums back had seen that in their visions. 01:37:11.561 --> 01:37:16.541 So basically that, that they had decoded d n a way before we ever had microscopes. 01:37:16.651 --> 01:37:17.131 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, absolutely. 01:37:17.131 --> 01:37:21.221 You know, you, you are familiar with the caduceus, the, uh, entwined snakes 01:37:21.851 --> 01:37:23.681 Warwick Schiller: as the, of, of the veterinarian. 01:37:23.861 --> 01:37:23.981 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:37:24.311 --> 01:37:24.521 Right. 01:37:24.526 --> 01:37:24.671 Yeah. 01:37:25.121 --> 01:37:29.641 And it, that seems to come from the Hindu, which seems to come from, you 01:37:29.646 --> 01:37:30.871 know, it, it comes to the Greeks. 01:37:30.871 --> 01:37:35.791 To the Egyptians, but before that it seems to come from, Babylon, Sumeria, 01:37:36.271 --> 01:37:38.041 and then it goes to the Hindu as well. 01:37:38.251 --> 01:37:43.211 And it seems that that's an allegory for the, two points of the cerebral 01:37:43.216 --> 01:37:46.961 spinal fluid coming up into the middle ventricle of the brain, which of 01:37:46.961 --> 01:37:48.461 course is where the pineal gland sits. 01:37:49.511 --> 01:37:56.951 and interestingly, when one looks at the sacred art of Sumaria Babylon, or 01:37:56.951 --> 01:38:01.871 the Mesopotamia down into Egypt, Egypt, and then you get a little bit going into 01:38:01.871 --> 01:38:09.621 Greece, and so you see two, motifs, a pine cone, Pineland is called that. 01:38:09.691 --> 01:38:10.051 Mm-hmm. 01:38:10.131 --> 01:38:12.801 , you know, because looks like shaped like a pine cone and 01:38:12.801 --> 01:38:16.881 a bag, a little bag of tools. 01:38:17.901 --> 01:38:21.981 And it seems that this could be, we don't know, an allegory 01:38:21.981 --> 01:38:26.031 for the gift of consciousness. 01:38:27.321 --> 01:38:33.411 To specifically create megalithic civilizations, agriculture, and so forth. 01:38:34.221 --> 01:38:37.941 Then you can get into very strange stuff of people saying, well, this comes 01:38:37.946 --> 01:38:39.621 down from aliens and because mm-hmm. 01:38:39.821 --> 01:38:42.771 guess what the sums actually said that it did. 01:38:42.861 --> 01:38:48.026 So the earliest, historical writings we've got, be they historical or 01:38:48.026 --> 01:38:52.976 mythological or some mixture of the two come from Sumaria and they were discovered 01:38:52.976 --> 01:38:55.136 in the 1840s, translated in the 1890s. 01:38:55.136 --> 01:38:58.166 They're still sitting in Oxford University, about 30,000 of them. 01:38:58.166 --> 01:38:59.426 They chip away at them. 01:38:59.966 --> 01:39:04.466 Some of them are boring things like, you know, lists of 12 handbags, 01:39:04.676 --> 01:39:08.186 you know, 26 bushels of this, or a contract for an apartment. 01:39:08.606 --> 01:39:09.926 Others are epic poems. 01:39:09.926 --> 01:39:12.536 That's where we've got Gilgamesh from and the rest. 01:39:12.776 --> 01:39:18.576 And another bit is this gift, list of kings who they say came from the sky, 01:39:18.606 --> 01:39:22.896 Anki, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, be all this as it may, whether these were 01:39:23.046 --> 01:39:29.916 D m t induced, visions or actually happened or something to do with the two. 01:39:29.916 --> 01:39:33.006 It seems that, that, it's very interesting to me that that motif 01:39:33.786 --> 01:39:39.756 gets repeated over so many cultures in so many parts of the world. 01:39:39.756 --> 01:39:44.646 As you say, there they are in Siberia with no snakes yet there they are with 01:39:44.646 --> 01:39:47.346 the entwined serpent to the middle of ventricle of the brain and the pine cone. 01:39:48.096 --> 01:39:50.526 you have activated your d m. 01:39:51.756 --> 01:39:54.786 I would say on numerous occasions by now, would, would you say so? 01:39:56.886 --> 01:39:57.516 Warwick Schiller: Yeah. 01:39:57.516 --> 01:40:00.966 Well, I don't think I've talked to you since, but I've started having, so 01:40:00.966 --> 01:40:05.976 there's a, there's a, there is a, oh, let me finish, about cosmic serpent. 01:40:05.976 --> 01:40:10.716 So at the end of the book, basically he, his thing is that human form 01:40:10.716 --> 01:40:15.096 came to this planet from outer space and it was some sort of reptile, 01:40:15.306 --> 01:40:15.546 Rupert Isaacson: right? 01:40:15.546 --> 01:40:17.016 This is the whole Anki thing. 01:40:17.046 --> 01:40:18.426 And he, that's, that's what he's getting 01:40:18.516 --> 01:40:18.576 Warwick Schiller: at 01:40:19.116 --> 01:40:19.806 Rupert Isaacson: Serpent Yeah. 01:40:19.806 --> 01:40:21.006 As wisdom and blah, blah, blah. 01:40:21.066 --> 01:40:21.306 Yeah. 01:40:21.936 --> 01:40:27.126 Warwick Schiller: Uh, so the, I have had these experiences in the last six 01:40:27.126 --> 01:40:31.806 months to where, so there's a place when you are on a, in psychedelics 01:40:31.806 --> 01:40:35.676 where you're going to this world. 01:40:35.676 --> 01:40:39.066 That's not this world, it's like a world of energy. 01:40:39.096 --> 01:40:43.896 It is, if this is 3d, it feels 4d and it feels more real in this place. 01:40:44.796 --> 01:40:52.056 So I've had some spontaneous non psychedelic assisted experiences with this 01:40:52.686 --> 01:40:55.136 to where I, first time was in the middle. 01:40:55.136 --> 01:40:56.426 I, I'd had Covid. 01:40:56.456 --> 01:40:57.116 I got Covid. 01:40:57.166 --> 01:41:00.296 I was in traveling last year, got Covid, spent six days in 01:41:00.301 --> 01:41:01.616 the hotel room and flew home. 01:41:02.336 --> 01:41:05.456 And it was past the day I should be shedding it, but I was still, 01:41:05.486 --> 01:41:06.926 the PO test was still positive. 01:41:06.926 --> 01:41:08.576 So Robin had me sleeping in the horse trailer. 01:41:08.666 --> 01:41:11.966 So I'm just outside confined at the horse trailer. 01:41:12.506 --> 01:41:15.566 And I was laying on the bed in there at about three o'clock one afternoon. 01:41:16.681 --> 01:41:21.476 and suddenly the right side of my body went into that space. 01:41:22.616 --> 01:41:26.486 So I'm, look, I'm, I'm laying there and I can see the two realities. 01:41:26.486 --> 01:41:29.576 There's the one on my left, which is this one we're in right now, and then 01:41:29.576 --> 01:41:33.326 this other side, the right side of my body is just vibrating and it, I can 01:41:33.331 --> 01:41:39.326 see it right there and I get the feeling that they've come for me and this is it. 01:41:39.686 --> 01:41:43.556 And if I let myself go into it, this will disappear forever and 01:41:43.561 --> 01:41:44.606 it scares the shit outta me. 01:41:44.606 --> 01:41:46.406 And I pull back and it disappears. 01:41:47.126 --> 01:41:50.646 So I call a friend of mine who is a, psychedelic assisted therapist 01:41:50.646 --> 01:41:52.686 and I'm like, dude, what's going on? 01:41:53.316 --> 01:41:55.236 And he goes, oh, that scared the hell outta me. 01:41:55.566 --> 01:41:57.186 And I call him and he goes, oh, that's great. 01:41:57.456 --> 01:42:03.336 Some people can go into those places, on their own without any assistance. 01:42:03.576 --> 01:42:06.696 He said, but it's very scary to do when you are alone. 01:42:07.866 --> 01:42:11.396 And he said, you know, it's often better if there's someone there 01:42:11.396 --> 01:42:13.076 to hold your hand or whatever. 01:42:13.076 --> 01:42:16.376 Anyways, so when I got done with the horse trailer and I was allowed 01:42:16.376 --> 01:42:20.036 back in the house, I said to Robin, my wife, I told her about it. 01:42:20.036 --> 01:42:23.396 And I said, if we are sitting around sometime and I feel it coming 01:42:23.401 --> 01:42:26.456 on, if I just hold your hand and. 01:42:27.641 --> 01:42:30.491 I'm going there, can I go and you wanna say, yes, all I want 01:42:30.491 --> 01:42:31.691 you to do is just hold my hand. 01:42:31.691 --> 01:42:32.351 She's like, okay. 01:42:32.471 --> 01:42:35.771 So it was about four days later, we were sitting, we're actually having 01:42:35.771 --> 01:42:37.061 a deeper, meaningful conversation. 01:42:37.061 --> 01:42:38.801 She was sitting on the couch facing me. 01:42:38.806 --> 01:42:42.191 I was sitting on our coffee table facing her, our little dog, Holden 01:42:42.191 --> 01:42:43.421 was on the couch beside Robin. 01:42:44.201 --> 01:42:48.161 And all of a sudden I felt it coming on a little bit and I said, Hey, it's coming. 01:42:48.161 --> 01:42:48.761 Can I go there? 01:42:48.761 --> 01:42:49.421 And she said, sure. 01:42:49.421 --> 01:42:53.831 So I relaxed instead of drawing back, I kind of relaxed into it, and this might 01:42:53.831 --> 01:42:59.261 sound crazy to some people or maybe all people, but Robin and Holden and the couch 01:42:59.266 --> 01:43:04.151 turned into a hologram to where I could see through them, they were still there, 01:43:04.151 --> 01:43:08.201 but I could see through them everything else in the room was, was this reality. 01:43:08.591 --> 01:43:10.781 But they were glowing golden. 01:43:11.021 --> 01:43:11.951 She was still talking to me. 01:43:11.951 --> 01:43:14.591 She's, she was who she was, but she, oh, she would see through 01:43:14.596 --> 01:43:17.261 when she was glowing, golden so was the dog, and so was the couch. 01:43:18.941 --> 01:43:22.511 And I'm just chatting to her and I'm, and then all of a sudden it went away. 01:43:22.781 --> 01:43:29.891 But I've had a number of experiences, like that, that were 01:43:29.891 --> 01:43:33.821 not induced with, with psychedelics. 01:43:33.821 --> 01:43:40.421 And I'm, I'm, I'm unsure what it means, but they, it's getting, it's getting, 01:43:40.501 --> 01:43:42.601 easier to allow myself to go that way. 01:43:42.691 --> 01:43:45.301 I feel it coming on instead of going, oh shit, that's a scary place. 01:43:45.301 --> 01:43:46.261 I kind of, kind of go. 01:43:48.661 --> 01:43:52.951 And I had one here a while ago to where, when I came back from that, I 01:43:52.951 --> 01:43:55.921 was like, oh, I'm, I'm good with it now. 01:43:55.921 --> 01:44:00.601 These, these two realities exist at the same time, and I don't, I, I didn't 01:44:00.601 --> 01:44:03.301 feel scared going there, and I know why. 01:44:03.306 --> 01:44:04.171 I didn't feel scared going there. 01:44:04.171 --> 01:44:05.161 I haven't told you this bit. 01:44:05.701 --> 01:44:11.911 So I, the person I mentioned before who's a psychedelic assisted 01:44:11.911 --> 01:44:16.981 psychotherapist, he hooked me up with an underground M D M A therapist. 01:44:18.451 --> 01:44:21.751 And so last, just after Christmas last year, just before New Year, I went and 01:44:21.756 --> 01:44:26.551 did a, a underground couple of days with this underground M D M A therapist. 01:44:26.971 --> 01:44:31.861 And basically the fear left me and s I've only, I think I've only had one of those 01:44:31.861 --> 01:44:37.201 crazy journeys since then, but when it came, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm good. 01:44:37.201 --> 01:44:42.151 I can just, I can just let go and, and flow into it. 01:44:42.901 --> 01:44:47.191 But it's, it is more real than this, more real than this reality. 01:44:48.341 --> 01:44:48.661 Rupert Isaacson: Interesting. 01:44:48.716 --> 01:44:52.946 you know, a cynic, not a skeptic, a cynic would say, oh, that's, you've just now 01:44:52.946 --> 01:44:57.321 taken so many psychedelics that you've now, you're now, having flashbacks. 01:44:58.131 --> 01:44:59.031 What would you say to that? 01:45:01.671 --> 01:45:04.581 Warwick Schiller: No, they're not flashbacks because it's not, it 01:45:04.581 --> 01:45:09.981 is a, it is a, when you go, when you go there, you are energy. 01:45:09.986 --> 01:45:12.621 So you are vibrating a bazillion miles an hour like your. 01:45:15.591 --> 01:45:18.291 Like you, what's what's interesting is I'm still in my, 01:45:18.291 --> 01:45:19.731 I can still be aware of my body. 01:45:19.731 --> 01:45:22.191 I can still aware of my body buzzing, but I'm not, I don't 01:45:22.196 --> 01:45:26.311 have a body in that space, but I can feel my body buzzing, now. 01:45:26.851 --> 01:45:27.001 Yeah. 01:45:27.006 --> 01:45:29.311 Well, asy can say whatever they want, I mean, right. 01:45:29.341 --> 01:45:31.771 If I had to talk to me five years ago and said some of this stuff 01:45:31.891 --> 01:45:33.361 always, you are a whack job. 01:45:33.361 --> 01:45:36.231 But I've ex I've experienced it and, yeah. 01:45:36.231 --> 01:45:39.306 I mean, well, and well, if a, an extent you've done so many psychedelics. 01:45:40.041 --> 01:45:43.311 I would say I've done five exactly. 01:45:43.341 --> 01:45:44.361 Once each. 01:45:44.871 --> 01:45:47.721 I've done, I've done, I've done five, yes. 01:45:47.721 --> 01:45:50.211 I've done five one time each. 01:45:51.111 --> 01:45:53.721 And some people do 'em, you know, every weekend. 01:45:53.961 --> 01:45:56.061 You know, like MDMA gone, a RAVs or whatever. 01:45:56.061 --> 01:46:00.291 I, I've only ever done 'em in healing situations with a lot of intention. 01:46:00.401 --> 01:46:03.671 and I, but if a cynic said that to me, I wouldn't even argue with 'em. 01:46:03.731 --> 01:46:07.871 I wouldn't try to make my point because they've got no 01:46:07.871 --> 01:46:10.061 frame of reference to my point. 01:46:10.151 --> 01:46:13.181 But I do have a frame of reference to their point, because six or seven years 01:46:13.181 --> 01:46:14.591 ago, I would've had the same thoughts. 01:46:14.591 --> 01:46:16.391 So I, I, I get where they're coming from. 01:46:16.764 --> 01:46:18.234 Rupert Isaacson: What I find interesting. 01:46:18.524 --> 01:46:20.604 Well, obviously the whole thing is interesting. 01:46:21.294 --> 01:46:26.874 Again, going back to experiences living with hunting and gathering peoples for 01:46:26.874 --> 01:46:31.704 whom this is part of normality, albeit a very joyful, intense normality. 01:46:32.724 --> 01:46:38.134 I've in, not spontaneously outside of rituals. 01:46:39.364 --> 01:46:41.344 I mean, I've had the odd out body experience, so that's something, 01:46:41.674 --> 01:46:43.594 but that's not so unusual. 01:46:43.714 --> 01:46:46.684 but I have had experiences where I've fell into what they 01:46:46.684 --> 01:46:47.704 would call the spirit world. 01:46:48.564 --> 01:46:53.274 and then was aware of myself sitting in the room or sitting in the heart 01:46:53.304 --> 01:46:58.404 or wherever, while also looking at a completely different reality, almost 01:46:58.404 --> 01:46:59.904 superimposed upon that reality. 01:47:00.084 --> 01:47:00.294 Mm-hmm. 01:47:00.714 --> 01:47:04.874 . And, both times the sham and the healer noticed, reached in and pulled 01:47:04.879 --> 01:47:09.044 me out and just said, don't go there without training, because you are 01:47:09.194 --> 01:47:13.104 gonna encounter, things from the human psyche that you're not ready for yet. 01:47:13.164 --> 01:47:15.024 and that's why we have a training process for this. 01:47:15.074 --> 01:47:16.464 but it's quite natural to fall into it. 01:47:17.079 --> 01:47:22.229 But of course, when a hunter is, going after Kudu, they must become kudu. 01:47:23.379 --> 01:47:28.209 when you said, how did these Amazonian tribes know which plant? 01:47:28.269 --> 01:47:29.409 Well, the plants told them? 01:47:30.279 --> 01:47:32.019 I've been told very similar things. 01:47:32.019 --> 01:47:36.159 For example, I remember in my first weeks with the bush. 01:47:37.554 --> 01:47:43.994 Observing how they could determine where animals were at a distance 01:47:43.999 --> 01:47:46.824 from their camps and asking them how. 01:47:46.824 --> 01:47:48.984 And they said, oh, well, you know, we, we dance, the healers dance. 01:47:48.984 --> 01:47:52.824 And then we ask, go to, then they go ask the animals where they are and the 01:47:52.824 --> 01:47:56.514 animals sail or we're over here or, and I, and I also said, how, how's it, you 01:47:56.514 --> 01:48:01.974 don't run into lion so often cuz we're in lion country, central Kalahari game 01:48:01.974 --> 01:48:03.744 reserve, very aggressive lions there. 01:48:04.284 --> 01:48:07.284 And they said, oh, again, yeah, no, we dance and we, we make 01:48:07.284 --> 01:48:08.994 contact with the lions and we ask 'em where they're gonna be. 01:48:08.994 --> 01:48:09.654 We go the other way. 01:48:10.884 --> 01:48:15.144 And they would say this sort of thing in a very matter of fact, sort of a 01:48:15.144 --> 01:48:21.444 way, and then sort of immediately talk about the fact that their toe hurt or 01:48:21.954 --> 01:48:23.424 the roof needed mending or whatever. 01:48:24.244 --> 01:48:24.369 Warwick Schiller: Right. 01:48:24.369 --> 01:48:26.459 It was like they, I put it in my GP p s in my phone. 01:48:26.789 --> 01:48:27.509 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly. 01:48:27.569 --> 01:48:28.199 Exactly. 01:48:28.199 --> 01:48:31.389 Which it came out like that would be pretty, magical if we were 01:48:31.389 --> 01:48:35.869 looking at it from even an early 20th century, perspective, a 01:48:35.869 --> 01:48:37.549 gp s in a phone or the phone. 01:48:38.119 --> 01:48:45.109 So one of the things which I love about conversations like this is it reminds 01:48:45.109 --> 01:48:48.079 us that miracle is an everyday thing. 01:48:48.279 --> 01:48:52.159 and going back to horses, I, I feel that it's miraculous 01:48:52.159 --> 01:48:54.499 that we can even ride horses. 01:48:54.504 --> 01:48:57.070 I feel that it is a shamanic experience because we had to 01:48:57.075 --> 01:48:58.699 get over, we have to shape. 01:49:00.319 --> 01:49:03.919 , we have to come out of ourselves as something that wants to eat the horse. 01:49:04.819 --> 01:49:07.429 and now we are getting to a point in horsemanship where we have to 01:49:07.434 --> 01:49:10.849 come out of ourselves as someone who simply wants to use the horse. 01:49:10.854 --> 01:49:14.599 This is something quite new in our consciousness, even as horse people. 01:49:14.599 --> 01:49:19.079 It is really the last tw 30 years or so, that it's not just a practical use 01:49:19.079 --> 01:49:21.359 thing, it's to do with more than that. 01:49:21.359 --> 01:49:23.639 It's getting back to more towards the hunter-gatherer thing, where 01:49:23.639 --> 01:49:24.809 you don't just hunt and kill. 01:49:25.439 --> 01:49:28.349 You have a, a, a full-on relationship with the animals. 01:49:28.449 --> 01:49:33.489 or the healing dancers of the Bushman are using certain animal energies, 01:49:33.669 --> 01:49:37.539 shapeshifting into animals, not just for hunting, also for healing or for 01:49:37.539 --> 01:49:41.339 all sorts of things because of course we're organisms, tied up with the 01:49:41.339 --> 01:49:44.119 other organisms in a world of organisms. 01:49:44.749 --> 01:49:49.849 and to feel that we're separated from them, of course, is a great illusion. 01:49:50.989 --> 01:49:54.509 But nonetheless, it's the illusion we've been, trained into. 01:49:55.529 --> 01:49:59.969 and when I've been with, really, you talked about being, seeing 01:50:01.349 --> 01:50:05.819 the hologram or the energy of Robin and the dog on the couch. 01:50:06.579 --> 01:50:13.689 the really good senior healers can exist in the trance, the deep healing 01:50:13.689 --> 01:50:17.589 trance where they're talking to ancestor spirits and pulling cancers 01:50:17.594 --> 01:50:20.289 out of people's bodies and doing that sort of thing while at the same. 01:50:21.084 --> 01:50:24.444 Having a, a cigarette and sort of chatting to someone else over there, 01:50:24.444 --> 01:50:29.814 and you can see in flickering of the eye muscles and this sort of thing as they're 01:50:30.204 --> 01:50:33.714 going between one and the other and beginning to handle it very gracefully. 01:50:34.504 --> 01:50:38.699 you, you made the, an analogy of ice skating with horses almost like an ice 01:50:38.699 --> 01:50:43.709 skater, sort of psychic ice skater going effortlessly between these realities. 01:50:44.789 --> 01:50:53.090 it seems that you have through this horse who bounces back legs, , taken somewhat of 01:50:53.095 --> 01:51:00.729 an interesting journey into the world of organisms and what's beyond organisms and 01:51:00.729 --> 01:51:02.139 what we can perceive and what we can't. 01:51:02.709 --> 01:51:04.389 How has this affected your horsemanship? 01:51:04.569 --> 01:51:11.339 Have you had, these experiences now in the dual realities or seeing the 01:51:11.339 --> 01:51:13.649 real realities around or on horses? 01:51:14.639 --> 01:51:18.539 Warwick Schiller: No, no, no. 01:51:18.669 --> 01:51:19.789 Not . Not yet. 01:51:19.809 --> 01:51:20.349 Not yet. 01:51:20.349 --> 01:51:20.629 Not yet. 01:51:20.634 --> 01:51:20.759 Yeah. 01:51:20.789 --> 01:51:26.369 I did when I did the, psilocybin journey, , last year was that a was 01:51:26.369 --> 01:51:28.619 actually at a horse place in Oregon. 01:51:29.069 --> 01:51:29.459 And, 01:51:29.559 --> 01:51:31.119 , I, most of it was a inward journey. 01:51:31.119 --> 01:51:34.299 Like I was, my eyes were closed, you know, I was laying under, under a blanket. 01:51:34.304 --> 01:51:37.529 But later on when I kind of came outta that and, I said, 01:51:37.534 --> 01:51:38.519 I wanna go see the horses. 01:51:40.034 --> 01:51:42.884 And so we go out in the past for the horses, so I was wearing shorts and 01:51:42.884 --> 01:51:50.384 socks and hiking boots, and I had these, I had these socks on that I bought. 01:51:50.384 --> 01:51:52.304 I was in Montana last year and I did a clinic there. 01:51:52.304 --> 01:51:55.734 And, and, I went into this, the next day I went into this, you 01:51:55.739 --> 01:51:57.444 know, trading post sort of a thing. 01:51:57.834 --> 01:52:01.404 And I had these really cool Native American design socks, 01:52:01.464 --> 01:52:02.544 Rupert Isaacson: special Montana socks. 01:52:03.024 --> 01:52:03.534 Warwick Schiller: Yes. 01:52:04.254 --> 01:52:07.794 And these socks were ridiculously expensive. 01:52:07.854 --> 01:52:11.334 Like they were 30 bucks a pair for socks or something that might be, not be 01:52:11.334 --> 01:52:12.984 ridiculously expensive, but for me it is. 01:52:12.984 --> 01:52:15.204 And I'd buy six pack of socks for three bottles. 01:52:15.204 --> 01:52:15.684 You know what I mean? 01:52:15.684 --> 01:52:19.584 So these are, these are basically the, these are fu money 01:52:19.584 --> 01:52:20.964 socks, you know what I mean? 01:52:20.964 --> 01:52:23.454 Like, no one needs to spend 30 bucks on a pair of socks, even though some 01:52:23.814 --> 01:52:26.604 people with lots of money might spend a hundred bucks on a pair of socks. 01:52:26.604 --> 01:52:29.844 But for me, lot of money, a pair spent on a pair of socks. 01:52:29.844 --> 01:52:33.144 So I've got these fu money socks, I've spent 30 bucks on a pair of socks, 01:52:34.014 --> 01:52:35.244 and I hadn't be wearing them this day. 01:52:35.244 --> 01:52:39.654 I did the psilocybin journey and you know, like I said, I was 01:52:39.654 --> 01:52:40.704 with the lady for quite a while. 01:52:40.709 --> 01:52:41.934 Then I needed a masculine energy. 01:52:41.934 --> 01:52:45.684 So I ended up, laying, sitting down, or actually laying with my head in 01:52:45.684 --> 01:52:48.684 the, the man's lap, holding his hand, talking to him for about two hours. 01:52:49.134 --> 01:52:51.504 But then at some point in time I'm like, I need to go see the horses. 01:52:51.804 --> 01:52:57.134 And so I was pretty much mostly through the, the, any of the. 01:52:58.424 --> 01:53:01.154 Hallucinogenic effects, you know, the visual effects you 01:53:01.154 --> 01:53:03.824 might get from, from Psilocin. 01:53:03.824 --> 01:53:06.374 And I didn't get many visual effects cuz for the most part my eyes were closed. 01:53:06.374 --> 01:53:09.134 But by this point in time, I'm not really getting any visuals, 01:53:09.134 --> 01:53:10.244 but I wanna go see the horses. 01:53:10.484 --> 01:53:15.014 So we walk out this pasture to the horses and on the way out there, I, as 01:53:15.014 --> 01:53:18.194 I get up to the horses, I realize I got an itchy foot and I look down and one 01:53:18.194 --> 01:53:19.994 of my socks, I've got an inside out. 01:53:20.474 --> 01:53:23.384 So all the little threads that make up all this Native American design that's 01:53:23.384 --> 01:53:27.104 on the outside have all caught all these stickers, these seeds from the grass. 01:53:28.094 --> 01:53:30.764 And so one of the horses walks up to me and he's standing right there. 01:53:31.064 --> 01:53:33.674 And instead of me talking to him, I pull my boot off and I pull this 01:53:33.704 --> 01:53:37.544 sock off and I start to pull these grass seeds out of this sock cuz 01:53:37.544 --> 01:53:38.864 I've got, this is important to me. 01:53:38.864 --> 01:53:41.294 These are my, this is my eff u money socks, isn't it? 01:53:41.594 --> 01:53:45.014 And I start to pick these grasses outta this sock and this horse just saddles 01:53:45.014 --> 01:53:48.974 up to me and just bumps me with his shoulder and knocks me off balance. 01:53:48.974 --> 01:53:52.484 Cause I'm standing on one foot, knocks me off balance and I look at him 01:53:52.489 --> 01:53:56.564 and all of a sudden I realize he's basically forget the fucking socks. 01:53:57.104 --> 01:53:59.054 It's not about the socks. 01:53:59.924 --> 01:54:02.084 And so I just put that sock in my pocket and put my shoe back on. 01:54:02.084 --> 01:54:04.334 And then I was present there with the horses, but it was, he was 01:54:04.334 --> 01:54:06.794 like, forget your you money socks. 01:54:06.794 --> 01:54:08.954 You don't need to worry about the socks right now. 01:54:11.224 --> 01:54:18.614 Rupert Isaacson: Do you anticipate that some of these experiences are now going 01:54:18.619 --> 01:54:21.674 to come to you w while with horses? 01:54:21.674 --> 01:54:23.174 I mean, why, why wouldn't they? 01:54:23.774 --> 01:54:26.474 Horses are still a large part of your life. 01:54:27.439 --> 01:54:27.999 Don't. 01:54:27.999 --> 01:54:34.469 And so what, what do you, what do you anticipate that bringing 01:54:34.469 --> 01:54:34.829 Warwick Schiller: you to? 01:54:36.119 --> 01:54:41.159 I don't anticipate it, but I'm open to it. 01:54:41.639 --> 01:54:42.029 Okay. 01:54:43.079 --> 01:54:50.789 And I, I think anticipation is there's a certain level of expectation, 01:54:50.819 --> 01:54:54.449 and I, I just think the energy's completely different when you are 01:54:54.454 --> 01:54:58.469 open to things versus when you are hoping that will happen or Sure. 01:54:58.469 --> 01:55:00.329 That will happen or whatever. 01:55:00.334 --> 01:55:04.049 And I, I, I, all my life, I've been a, you know, I've got this far with 01:55:04.049 --> 01:55:07.949 just being open to, possibilities. 01:55:07.949 --> 01:55:10.499 What, so what do I think will come from it? 01:55:10.589 --> 01:55:15.659 I think so a lot of people when they go into those spaces with, with plant 01:55:15.659 --> 01:55:20.399 medicines or whatever, they have conversations with the divine, with 01:55:22.049 --> 01:55:26.039 other beings, other entities, other energies that give them information. 01:55:27.179 --> 01:55:32.009 In my experiences, I have not had any of that at all yet. 01:55:32.819 --> 01:55:36.029 but I know people who regularly have sessions with their 01:55:36.034 --> 01:55:37.809 horses, with, with, psilocybin. 01:55:37.809 --> 01:55:41.079 They'll, on a Sunday, they'll go and take some psilocybin 01:55:41.079 --> 01:55:41.979 and go sit with the horses. 01:55:42.459 --> 01:55:46.029 I get messages from several friends of mine all the time, like, you wouldn't 01:55:46.029 --> 01:55:47.559 believe what the horses told me today. 01:55:48.414 --> 01:55:52.524 Had a, had a afternoon Sunday afternoon mushroom session with the horses and 01:55:52.524 --> 01:55:54.054 they said this and this and this. 01:55:54.054 --> 01:55:54.714 And what generally 01:55:54.714 --> 01:55:55.614 Rupert Isaacson: are the horses saying? 01:55:56.184 --> 01:56:00.444 Are they saying banal things like, could we have better pasture please? 01:56:00.449 --> 01:56:02.424 Or are they saying there's a message from the outer 01:56:02.424 --> 01:56:02.784 Warwick Schiller: gods? 01:56:02.964 --> 01:56:03.444 What are they saying? 01:56:03.454 --> 01:56:05.964 It's, no, it's, it's, it's the big, it's the big message. 01:56:05.994 --> 01:56:09.234 Like, you know, the wor we, we have to start getting along. 01:56:09.534 --> 01:56:10.944 We ha we're all connected. 01:56:10.944 --> 01:56:15.564 We have to start, we're all, we need to start to heal the system type thing. 01:56:16.394 --> 01:56:22.454 is that the general thrust of the thing, the general thrust of the, of the, of 01:56:22.459 --> 01:56:26.864 the whole thing is run, tell the others. 01:56:27.554 --> 01:56:28.274 Rupert Isaacson: our horses. 01:56:28.274 --> 01:56:32.654 Our horses try to tell us this fairly routinely. 01:56:32.654 --> 01:56:33.224 In fact. 01:56:34.004 --> 01:56:34.454 Warwick Schiller: I think so. 01:56:35.804 --> 01:56:43.034 I think, I think Sherlock showed up to, to give me a little, like, that horse 01:56:43.034 --> 01:56:44.294 knocked me off balance with that foot. 01:56:44.294 --> 01:56:45.434 Like forget about the sock. 01:56:46.034 --> 01:56:46.214 Yeah. 01:56:46.219 --> 01:56:46.364 Okay. 01:56:46.364 --> 01:56:49.964 I think Sherlock showed me to say, Hey, forget about, forget about 01:56:49.964 --> 01:56:50.894 the way you're looking at things. 01:56:50.899 --> 01:56:52.004 There's another way to look at things. 01:56:52.004 --> 01:56:57.734 And that leads you, you know, it is a, yeah, I believe it is a, an evolution and 01:56:57.734 --> 01:57:03.044 you can't skip steps, you know, so your levels of, your levels of consciousness 01:57:03.044 --> 01:57:06.164 or your levels of consciousness and there's lots of levels of consciousness. 01:57:06.194 --> 01:57:12.134 And you know, I think I'm very, very, very early on in the journey, but. 01:57:13.844 --> 01:57:17.624 You know, you, I, I think they're just, for me, the horses are kind of 01:57:17.624 --> 01:57:19.454 pointing us in the, in the direction of, 01:57:19.934 --> 01:57:24.584 Rupert Isaacson: given that we have relationships with so many different 01:57:24.584 --> 01:57:28.724 species, you know, we, we have all the domesticated animals and then 01:57:28.729 --> 01:57:30.104 of course we have wild animals. 01:57:32.594 --> 01:57:33.194 Why the horse? 01:57:33.194 --> 01:57:38.634 What's, what's the special thing that the horse has to tell us in this? 01:57:39.984 --> 01:57:41.784 Or is it what all animals would tell us? 01:57:43.944 --> 01:57:44.484 , what do you think? 01:57:45.864 --> 01:57:48.294 Warwick Schiller: I'm thinking it's what all animals would tell 01:57:48.294 --> 01:57:50.994 us, but we don't wanna ride the lions, you know what I mean? 01:57:51.474 --> 01:57:52.044 And so 01:57:52.134 --> 01:57:53.574 Rupert Isaacson: lions don't carry us anywhere. 01:57:53.579 --> 01:57:53.994 It's true. 01:57:54.864 --> 01:57:55.074 Warwick Schiller: Yeah. 01:57:55.134 --> 01:58:01.314 You know, it's, yeah, I think, I think, and like a dog will 01:58:01.314 --> 01:58:02.454 wanna be around you all the time. 01:58:02.454 --> 01:58:07.074 You don't have to, you don't necessarily have to change how you go about things 01:58:07.074 --> 01:58:08.244 to get the dog to wanna hang with you. 01:58:08.334 --> 01:58:10.874 But horse, you know, like you said before, we're predators. 01:58:10.874 --> 01:58:11.604 They're prey animals. 01:58:12.294 --> 01:58:15.324 And I think if we want, we, we we're passionate about horses. 01:58:15.329 --> 01:58:15.984 We love horses. 01:58:15.989 --> 01:58:16.914 We love to be around them. 01:58:17.794 --> 01:58:22.624 we love to do things with them, but they, I think they present us with challenges 01:58:23.015 --> 01:58:23.315 in. 01:58:26.300 --> 01:58:27.290 Ambitions with horses. 01:58:27.290 --> 01:58:28.610 They present us with challenges. 01:58:28.610 --> 01:58:32.330 And those challenges are overcome by going up levels of consciousness, 01:58:32.330 --> 01:58:33.560 seeing things differently. 01:58:34.070 --> 01:58:37.850 You know, it seems like if, if you are, you know, you talked about 01:58:37.850 --> 01:58:42.440 school, you know, like this kind of school system you grew up in and the 01:58:42.440 --> 01:58:46.520 church and the state, and we wanna, we wanna make you adversarial so that 01:58:46.520 --> 01:58:48.140 you can fight wars for us or whatever. 01:58:48.140 --> 01:58:50.480 You know, if you want to be adversarial with a horse, you'll 01:58:50.480 --> 01:58:51.530 have all sorts of difficulties. 01:58:51.530 --> 01:58:57.470 But if you, if you are passionate about getting things done with a horse, after 01:58:57.475 --> 01:59:00.050 a while the adversarial thing doesn't work and you start to look at things a 01:59:00.050 --> 01:59:04.070 bit differently, then you realize, oh, I didn't ha he was only being adversarial 01:59:04.070 --> 01:59:05.330 because I was being adversarial. 01:59:06.020 --> 01:59:10.560 And I think, I think as we go along, I'm, yeah, these days I'm 01:59:10.560 --> 01:59:15.420 trying to see how much I can do with, without doing anything , so to speak. 01:59:15.420 --> 01:59:18.540 And I'm not talking about animal communication that's, that comes later, 01:59:18.540 --> 01:59:24.990 but just do you think that Mustang just letting, let, letting that Mustang 01:59:24.990 --> 01:59:30.210 know how much I noticed made all of a difference in the world than if I had a 01:59:30.210 --> 01:59:35.760 tried to, to train him to do something or, you know, that sort of thing. 01:59:35.760 --> 01:59:38.520 You know, there's an old saying with horses, they don't care how much you 01:59:38.520 --> 01:59:40.290 know until they know how much you care. 01:59:40.860 --> 01:59:42.720 I actually think that's kind of bunk. 01:59:43.500 --> 01:59:47.040 They don't know how much you care until they know how. 01:59:48.690 --> 01:59:51.300 Much you notice how present you can be. 01:59:51.300 --> 01:59:53.670 They, you know, you see a lot of people who care a lot about their 01:59:53.670 --> 01:59:55.740 horses and they run up and they pat 'em and they feed 'em and they do this, 01:59:55.745 --> 02:00:02.850 and I love my horse, but they're not communicating any awareness of things. 02:00:02.850 --> 02:00:08.040 And I, I have just found that with horses, the more you can be communicate 02:00:08.040 --> 02:00:12.060 your awareness to it, it gets down to the point to where it ends up. 02:00:12.060 --> 02:00:16.500 Where it's all about communicating Your awareness of their awareness. 02:00:17.250 --> 02:00:20.190 Of your awareness of their awareness, of your awareness. 02:00:20.190 --> 02:00:20.910 Of their awareness. 02:00:21.030 --> 02:00:22.260 If you wanna keep going like that. 02:00:22.265 --> 02:00:24.840 But that's, you know, you were talking about, elephants 02:00:24.840 --> 02:00:26.160 of Indigos and about animals. 02:00:26.740 --> 02:00:29.950 there's a book I've been reading called Beyond Words, what Animals Think and 02:00:29.955 --> 02:00:32.520 Feel by a fellow named Carl Sina. 02:00:32.520 --> 02:00:35.890 I dunno if you've ever heard of, how do you spell Sina ssa? 02:00:35.950 --> 02:00:36.850 F i n a 02:00:37.850 --> 02:00:40.270 Rupert Isaacson: s a f i n A, Sina Carl. 02:00:40.660 --> 02:00:43.170 Carl with a c or, or, or with a city 02:00:43.360 --> 02:00:44.770 Warwick Schiller: with a c Carl Safina. 02:00:45.430 --> 02:00:48.100 Beyond Words, what Animals Think and Feel, his name of the book. 02:00:48.100 --> 02:00:52.270 But in there he's talking about how, you know, we've all scientists, like in the 02:00:52.270 --> 02:00:55.780 scientific world, anthropomorphizing is a good way to get yourself laughed at. 02:00:55.930 --> 02:00:57.040 Like we've been taught. 02:00:57.040 --> 02:00:59.530 Do not anthropomorphizing, do not anthropomorphizing, you know, 02:00:59.770 --> 02:01:00.880 animals don't have feelings. 02:01:01.600 --> 02:01:05.020 And in that book, at the, we're at the very end of one of the chapters, he was 02:01:05.020 --> 02:01:08.680 talking with someone and they said to him, well, what you have to remember 02:01:08.680 --> 02:01:12.450 is, I think it was, there's a, there's a chapter in elephants, there's a 02:01:12.455 --> 02:01:14.320 chapter in Wales and there's a chapter. 02:01:15.945 --> 02:01:17.065 What the other animal is. 02:01:17.905 --> 02:01:20.605 But anyway, this person said, you know, you have to remember that 02:01:21.025 --> 02:01:22.795 they're not animal, they're not humans. 02:01:23.965 --> 02:01:28.795 And his reply was, yes, but you have to remember, the humans are animals. 02:01:29.155 --> 02:01:29.485 Right. 02:01:30.925 --> 02:01:31.765 Rupert Isaacson: No, I agree. 02:01:31.855 --> 02:01:35.965 And I've often wondered, you know, we have the, we have a particular love 02:01:35.965 --> 02:01:37.975 affair with the horse in our culture. 02:01:39.415 --> 02:01:44.005 It's what we built our military civilizations on. 02:01:44.185 --> 02:01:49.795 Ever since the bur nomads came out of the step into Europe on those horses, 02:01:49.795 --> 02:01:56.095 the Yamaya, as they seem to refer to them in the Neolithic era, the first 02:01:57.095 --> 02:02:01.525 Hs to sweep across Europe and bring death and the sword to everybody on 02:02:01.525 --> 02:02:05.455 a horse, goes back into pre-history. 02:02:06.655 --> 02:02:16.555 And it seems that we have used the horse to project our ambitions 02:02:16.555 --> 02:02:19.645 and our egos as well as ourselves. 02:02:19.645 --> 02:02:23.965 I'm projecting myself from here in Germany to Hungary because I can get there on 02:02:23.970 --> 02:02:25.675 a horse quicker than I can on foot. 02:02:26.635 --> 02:02:29.065 so it's a real projection and it's a emotional and 02:02:29.275 --> 02:02:32.155 metaphorical projection as well. 02:02:32.155 --> 02:02:36.625 They make us bigger, faster, stronger, more beautiful until we get off. 02:02:36.625 --> 02:02:38.665 And then we just go back to being monkeys again. 02:02:39.905 --> 02:02:42.335 that said, the time I spent in Mongo. 02:02:43.760 --> 02:02:47.810 Where, okay, the le the horsemanship is quite, quite brutal. 02:02:49.020 --> 02:02:52.380 but their relationship with the horse is on every level. 02:02:52.380 --> 02:02:55.800 They, they live it, they wear it, they drink it, they eat it. 02:02:56.640 --> 02:02:59.520 They absolutely do love it and revere it. 02:03:00.690 --> 02:03:05.520 And they built the civilization well, the, the, the herding culture 02:03:05.520 --> 02:03:07.290 that again, brought by to the sword. 02:03:07.350 --> 02:03:10.110 We kill everybody now from the Pacific to the Mediterranean. 02:03:10.590 --> 02:03:17.360 And then somewhere in the 17th century, some Tibetan monks wandered over the Altai 02:03:17.365 --> 02:03:23.010 plateau and started talking about this thing called Buddhism to the Mongols. 02:03:24.270 --> 02:03:29.640 And in one generation, basically they stopped no more cub, no 02:03:29.645 --> 02:03:32.860 more Ja k, no more TA alone. 02:03:33.630 --> 02:03:38.820 No more they'll fight a defensive war, put, put bastards a sandwich 02:03:38.820 --> 02:03:43.590 between Russia and China, which is an uncomfortable squeeze. 02:03:45.930 --> 02:03:51.510 But the nicest people, and I want an, a strong humanity tradition and so on. 02:03:51.510 --> 02:03:53.640 Obviously I took my son there for healing. 02:03:54.810 --> 02:04:07.090 I wonder if we, these, we western post conquest colonial people who inherited. 02:04:07.965 --> 02:04:15.325 , the horses as a means of conquest are now going through that same education that 02:04:15.415 --> 02:04:18.265 the Mongols went through 400 years ago. 02:04:19.375 --> 02:04:20.785 For us, it all seems very new. 02:04:22.105 --> 02:04:26.425 This thing of, well, to have a relationship with the horse, to not just 02:04:26.425 --> 02:04:34.975 want the horse to do this thing for you in order to win this ribbon or whatever. 02:04:35.425 --> 02:04:39.265 because competition is a form of conquest, form of battle, form of 02:04:39.775 --> 02:04:42.985 competition, adversarial exercise. 02:04:44.635 --> 02:04:45.865 what are your thoughts on this? 02:04:45.895 --> 02:04:50.215 Do, do you feel that therefore the horse because of this? 02:04:50.215 --> 02:04:55.555 Because we've used the horse probably more than any other animal that you can ride. 02:04:55.825 --> 02:04:56.995 We have used elephants in war. 02:04:57.115 --> 02:04:58.075 We have used camels in war. 02:04:58.075 --> 02:04:58.495 Okay, fine. 02:04:58.495 --> 02:05:02.335 We've used doggies and mules in more, but not like the horse because of the 02:05:02.340 --> 02:05:04.885 speed, the, the maneuverability, the da. 02:05:07.135 --> 02:05:13.285 So we've really committed some sins on the backs of these things. 02:05:13.885 --> 02:05:18.535 And they've given this sort of, they're any, they, they're neutral. 02:05:18.535 --> 02:05:21.175 It's like they've given us, okay, here I am. 02:05:21.235 --> 02:05:21.745 I'm a horse. 02:05:22.255 --> 02:05:23.305 You want to use me for this? 02:05:23.355 --> 02:05:23.745 okay. 02:05:23.745 --> 02:05:26.445 You know, I'd rather you didn't perhaps, but Okay. 02:05:27.195 --> 02:05:28.825 and now we're coming to this other thing. 02:05:28.825 --> 02:05:29.635 Here you are. 02:05:30.265 --> 02:05:33.955 Maybe you'll have these experiences on horses or with horses where you're 02:05:33.955 --> 02:05:35.845 beginning to see these parallel realities. 02:05:36.835 --> 02:05:38.065 Where's it all going? 02:05:38.694 --> 02:05:39.954 Warwick Schiller: I think it's all lead. 02:05:39.984 --> 02:05:44.694 It's leading us all to consciousness, really. 02:05:47.064 --> 02:05:50.484 Uh, I, you know, I think, you know, as much bad as that's come 02:05:50.484 --> 02:05:53.964 outta the internet, you know, as far as social media or whatever 02:05:54.344 --> 02:05:55.614 better, better statement there. 02:05:55.619 --> 02:05:55.974 But yeah, 02:05:57.061 --> 02:06:02.041 I think these days there's no reason to listen to the dogma of 02:06:02.041 --> 02:06:05.071 your parents or your government or your church or whatever. 02:06:05.071 --> 02:06:09.061 Like in the middle Ages, you know, you, that's what you got. 02:06:09.121 --> 02:06:10.621 Oh, that's what you got. 02:06:10.731 --> 02:06:14.251 There's, there's no reason to, there's no reason to be ignorant these days. 02:06:14.251 --> 02:06:19.021 And so ideas can spread so much easier. 02:06:19.021 --> 02:06:25.111 And I, I just find it in the, in the horse community in the last five years or 02:06:25.341 --> 02:06:34.951 so, just in the last five years, people being just so more aware of, of the 02:06:34.951 --> 02:06:39.691 benefits of connection and empathy and, 02:06:40.664 --> 02:06:42.974 you know, non-confrontational. 02:06:43.454 --> 02:06:44.594 Means of communicating. 02:06:44.594 --> 02:06:45.404 And I don't, I don't know. 02:06:45.404 --> 02:06:51.074 I think, I think the horses are leading us to, you know, help more people, just 02:06:51.074 --> 02:06:54.644 be more aware of consciousness, I think. 02:06:54.944 --> 02:06:56.384 I think that's where they're going. 02:06:56.894 --> 02:06:56.984 And 02:06:56.984 --> 02:06:58.034 Rupert Isaacson: is that where you want to go? 02:06:58.034 --> 02:06:58.994 What's next for you? 02:06:59.054 --> 02:07:02.534 You, you've, you, you are still a successful trainer. 02:07:03.554 --> 02:07:06.044 You haven't stopped doing clinics and shows. 02:07:06.094 --> 02:07:07.904 You, you do still travel around doing that? 02:07:08.574 --> 02:07:11.004 Warwick Schiller: no, I don't haven't, I haven't done any shows since, since 02:07:11.004 --> 02:07:13.074 2018, since the world of question games. 02:07:13.074 --> 02:07:13.944 This is the last time I completed. 02:07:14.174 --> 02:07:14.414 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 02:07:14.424 --> 02:07:14.664 Okay. 02:07:14.664 --> 02:07:15.114 Not compe. 02:07:15.204 --> 02:07:16.884 Well, shows in the com competition sense. 02:07:16.944 --> 02:07:17.304 Oh, okay. 02:07:17.304 --> 02:07:17.774 Yeah, yeah. 02:07:17.874 --> 02:07:20.724 You, you're giving clinics, you're helping people, you know, also, 02:07:20.904 --> 02:07:23.784 you're still helping people with the techniques as well as, because 02:07:23.784 --> 02:07:25.284 obviously there's these two sides. 02:07:25.694 --> 02:07:30.254 Rational, irrational, must exist, you know, parallel simultaneously, 02:07:31.134 --> 02:07:33.474 you've self-actualized. 02:07:33.594 --> 02:07:37.674 You know, if you look at you from the outside, when I met 02:07:37.674 --> 02:07:39.054 you, you know, I could say yes. 02:07:39.054 --> 02:07:42.984 This is somebody who, whether you knew you were following your gut 02:07:42.984 --> 02:07:45.984 or not, did, whether you knew you were following your passions or not, 02:07:46.284 --> 02:07:48.294 did had a passion for the horse. 02:07:48.294 --> 02:07:50.574 He had a passion for this western thing. 02:07:50.574 --> 02:07:56.604 You followed it, you followed your love for a woman as well. 02:07:56.874 --> 02:07:59.094 You followed love really the whole way. 02:08:00.444 --> 02:08:02.544 And whether you knew it or not, you did. 02:08:02.754 --> 02:08:03.594 You loved the horse. 02:08:04.374 --> 02:08:07.014 You loved this motif and this lifestyle. 02:08:07.014 --> 02:08:07.914 You love this woman. 02:08:08.244 --> 02:08:08.754 You love this. 02:08:09.680 --> 02:08:11.630 and now you're moving deeper into California. 02:08:11.630 --> 02:08:20.360 I know you've bought this new facility, you've become financially independent 02:08:21.230 --> 02:08:25.580 through the training videos to the point where you can now pick and choose what you 02:08:25.610 --> 02:08:27.230 do and what you're doing is interesting. 02:08:27.230 --> 02:08:30.320 You have this podcast is sharing of information. 02:08:30.320 --> 02:08:31.070 It's fascinating. 02:08:31.640 --> 02:08:35.870 You have started the summit bringing all these very interesting people 02:08:35.870 --> 02:08:38.120 from the horse world together. 02:08:38.120 --> 02:08:42.570 When I was there last year, it was my first, experience of being in 02:08:42.570 --> 02:08:46.280 a non-ad adversarial horse event. 02:08:46.460 --> 02:08:48.380 I'd, I'd, I'd never experienced that before. 02:08:48.650 --> 02:08:49.130 Mind blowing. 02:08:49.970 --> 02:08:54.650 now you ha are exploring consciousness and I know that you bought 02:08:54.650 --> 02:08:56.600 this new place in Paso Robles. 02:08:57.170 --> 02:08:58.010 What's gonna happen there? 02:08:58.015 --> 02:08:58.820 What's going on with that? 02:09:00.920 --> 02:09:04.670 Warwick Schiller: What we wanna start, you know, a lot of times at clinics helping 02:09:04.670 --> 02:09:08.300 people get along with their horses better, they have a transformational experience. 02:09:08.305 --> 02:09:11.630 They have to, they have a, a change in perspective. 02:09:12.200 --> 02:09:14.300 you know, a lot of times, like I said, they'll have a transformational 02:09:14.300 --> 02:09:17.480 experience, but they don't come to the clinic signing up for 02:09:17.480 --> 02:09:18.440 a transformational experience. 02:09:18.440 --> 02:09:19.910 A lot of times it'll just happen because of it. 02:09:20.930 --> 02:09:24.860 But, so there's a lot of places you can't go in front of, a bunch of spectators. 02:09:25.725 --> 02:09:29.840 with people because they didn't sign up for that sort of thing in that situation. 02:09:29.840 --> 02:09:33.170 And so what we are starting to do now is we want to have more 02:09:33.200 --> 02:09:37.010 transformational type experiences. 02:09:37.010 --> 02:09:40.310 Like after the, after the podcast summit last year, Robin and I looked at each 02:09:40.315 --> 02:09:41.600 other and like, we want more of that. 02:09:41.600 --> 02:09:44.180 We want more of that type of energy. 02:09:44.240 --> 02:09:47.600 And so what we're gonna start doing is having, I'm still doing, 02:09:48.650 --> 02:09:51.830 we're starting out, wanna kinda jump right into something new. 02:09:51.830 --> 02:09:54.680 We're gonna start at doing what we used to do, which is the clinics, 02:09:54.680 --> 02:09:55.850 but we have 'em at our place. 02:09:55.910 --> 02:09:58.730 And the, what we're doing now is three day clinics. 02:09:59.900 --> 02:10:04.190 The second and third day are basically the same clinic they've been before, but 02:10:04.190 --> 02:10:09.110 the first day is more mindset stuff, more transformational stuff with no spectators. 02:10:09.650 --> 02:10:12.950 You know, the clinic's not open for, for spectators until the clinic 02:10:12.950 --> 02:10:14.180 starts on the Saturday morning. 02:10:14.570 --> 02:10:15.350 That's the beginning. 02:10:15.350 --> 02:10:19.600 But then we've also booked, we released a, , what are we calling it? 02:10:19.690 --> 02:10:21.110 A what are you sure, what are we calling it? 02:10:21.110 --> 02:10:21.650 What are we calling it? 02:10:21.680 --> 02:10:26.780 We are having a, I can't think of the name of the thing we're having. 02:10:27.140 --> 02:10:29.270 We're having a weekend retreat. 02:10:29.275 --> 02:10:29.720 Thank you. 02:10:29.840 --> 02:10:31.940 We're having a retreat at our place. 02:10:31.970 --> 02:10:36.255 , the first one is in, I think it's in May, and it's sold out in 02:10:36.255 --> 02:10:37.725 three hours when we released it. 02:10:37.730 --> 02:10:40.605 And it's, it's, people don't bring the horses. 02:10:40.605 --> 02:10:42.675 We're gonna have these retreats that people will in from wherever. 02:10:43.015 --> 02:10:46.735 we will do some horse stuff, but we will be with our horses. 02:10:47.035 --> 02:10:48.655 But it's more about mindset. 02:10:48.785 --> 02:10:50.915 you know, Robin wants to lead people through ice barss. 02:10:50.915 --> 02:10:54.455 We wanna have meditation, we wanna have some yoga. 02:10:54.485 --> 02:11:00.625 We wanna have, all that sort of stuff with, with the mind, with the 02:11:00.745 --> 02:11:05.725 idea that this is gonna help people when they go home with their horses. 02:11:05.725 --> 02:11:08.395 This is usually, you know, usually people are having problems with 02:11:08.395 --> 02:11:11.155 their horses because of their perception of what's going on. 02:11:11.935 --> 02:11:16.885 Not the problem's, not a, you know, it's like Captain Jack Sparrow says, 02:11:17.425 --> 02:11:18.595 the problem is not the problem. 02:11:18.615 --> 02:11:21.115 It's your, it's your attitude about the problem. 02:11:21.295 --> 02:11:21.895 It's a problem. 02:11:21.895 --> 02:11:25.465 So, yeah, we wanna start having more things like that, and then we're gonna 02:11:25.465 --> 02:11:31.315 have weekends to where we will have, one of the podcast guests come, and 02:11:32.305 --> 02:11:36.085 Robin and I and the podcast guests will work with the people a weekend. 02:11:36.085 --> 02:11:39.505 But, you know, and I guess if you think about it, it's all 02:11:39.505 --> 02:11:40.735 about expanding consciousness. 02:11:40.735 --> 02:11:43.975 But all, all of this is about, it's trying to help people get along 02:11:43.975 --> 02:11:47.185 with their horses better, but it's, it's getting to the real reason. 02:11:47.185 --> 02:11:48.955 They're not a lot not getting along with their horses. 02:11:49.360 --> 02:11:49.840 Very well. 02:11:49.840 --> 02:11:52.390 And a lot of times it is their perception of things. 02:11:52.390 --> 02:11:56.380 It's their, it might be their negative self-talk, it might be how they view 02:11:56.380 --> 02:11:58.120 the world, those, those sorts of things. 02:11:58.120 --> 02:12:02.410 But we really want to get more into the, transformational space. 02:12:02.410 --> 02:12:05.260 And, and as it goes along, it'll obviously, it'll morph into 02:12:05.260 --> 02:12:06.970 something that it's not yet. 02:12:06.970 --> 02:12:09.580 But we, you know, we have a 42 acre place. 02:12:09.580 --> 02:12:12.820 We, you know, it's got, it's got a creek run through the middle of, 02:12:12.820 --> 02:12:14.080 it's gotta be old forest on it. 02:12:14.080 --> 02:12:15.910 It's got a huge, it's got two arenas. 02:12:15.910 --> 02:12:18.310 It's, it's got a lot of places to do a lot of things. 02:12:18.310 --> 02:12:20.170 So we're pretty excited about it. 02:12:20.440 --> 02:12:22.660 Rupert Isaacson: Do you think you're gonna do non horse stuff too? 02:12:22.720 --> 02:12:24.990 Just, stuff about consciousness, period? 02:12:25.440 --> 02:12:25.740 Warwick Schiller: Yes. 02:12:25.750 --> 02:12:29.010 We'll I imagine we'll definitely end up getting into that. 02:12:29.520 --> 02:12:32.250 I mean, I think initially I will have other people come there to 02:12:32.250 --> 02:12:33.660 do that and I will be the student. 02:12:34.460 --> 02:12:36.740 cuz I'm a long way from teaching that stuff. 02:12:36.740 --> 02:12:42.220 But I, you know, I think my, my, looks like my purpose here is to 02:12:42.503 --> 02:12:46.073 help people look in that direction. 02:12:46.073 --> 02:12:48.893 I'm not sure I'm, I'm the guy that's supposed to lead them to the end 02:12:48.893 --> 02:12:51.503 of that rabbit hole, but I think I'm the guy that's supposed to 02:12:51.503 --> 02:12:53.153 kind of go, Hey, look down here. 02:12:53.153 --> 02:12:53.933 It's kind of interesting. 02:12:54.773 --> 02:12:57.743 Rupert Isaacson: Well, you said something very interesting at the beginning of this 02:12:58.133 --> 02:13:05.663 conversation, which was that when you began doing these things, you weren't. 02:13:07.043 --> 02:13:08.753 Doing them with an idea of monetizing. 02:13:09.093 --> 02:13:11.883 I mean obviously you wanted to make a living, but you weren't, you didn't 02:13:11.883 --> 02:13:14.613 do the equa thing to monetize it. 02:13:14.613 --> 02:13:19.913 You didn't do even the, online stuff at first to monetize it, 02:13:19.943 --> 02:13:24.833 even though now that's actually how you've become independent. 02:13:25.583 --> 02:13:31.983 You did it really to be of service and , then it took on its own energy. 02:13:33.123 --> 02:13:34.923 Is that what you're going to do with this new place? 02:13:36.312 --> 02:13:40.362 Warwick Schiller: Oh, I'd certainly like it to pay for itself . That does. 02:13:40.362 --> 02:13:44.712 So, um, you know what, yes. 02:13:44.717 --> 02:13:49.152 It's, I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's not, we didn't buy this new place cuz 02:13:49.797 --> 02:13:53.147 because we're gonna do this thing to, you know, it, it's 02:13:53.147 --> 02:13:53.787 the same as everything else. 02:13:53.787 --> 02:13:55.677 It's just like where my, my gut was going. 02:13:55.677 --> 02:13:59.697 Like, like I said, after the, the podcast summit last year said to Robin, 02:14:01.197 --> 02:14:02.877 that's the space we need to occupy. 02:14:02.882 --> 02:14:04.377 That's what I want to do more of. 02:14:04.382 --> 02:14:10.017 I want to, I want to have more of those transformational experiences like 02:14:10.017 --> 02:14:13.497 that, both myself and other people. 02:14:13.497 --> 02:14:16.287 Because I don't think anybody, whether you are a presenter or you're one of 02:14:16.287 --> 02:14:20.397 the spectators there, that was at that thing that was not completely moved by. 02:14:20.397 --> 02:14:22.497 That everything that happened there, I 02:14:22.497 --> 02:14:23.057 Rupert Isaacson: would agree. 02:14:23.265 --> 02:14:27.375 So people will be listening to this. 02:14:28.455 --> 02:14:29.805 We're coming towards the end now. 02:14:30.795 --> 02:14:32.105 They'll have some questions. 02:14:32.295 --> 02:14:36.015 one thing I want to say to the listeners is if you've got questions 02:14:36.075 --> 02:14:40.545 and you must have questions after listening to this, email them to us. 02:14:41.085 --> 02:14:42.165 Write them, write them down. 02:14:42.165 --> 02:14:44.745 We'll give you the, the email at the end of the, of the show. 02:14:45.545 --> 02:14:50.015 and we will ask, Warwick to answer them. 02:14:50.585 --> 02:14:51.215 If he will. 02:14:51.275 --> 02:14:54.335 Will he actually ask him to come back on and answer them? 02:14:55.175 --> 02:14:57.215 Cuz it would be nice to hear it's direct from him. 02:14:58.115 --> 02:15:08.115 But in the, closing minutes of this conversation, people will be 02:15:08.145 --> 02:15:09.675 listening to this with dilemmas. 02:15:09.735 --> 02:15:13.455 And the dilemmas will be, you're a horsey guy. 02:15:13.455 --> 02:15:17.265 So some of them will have horse dilemmas, some of it will be 02:15:17.265 --> 02:15:18.825 life and consciousness dilemmas. 02:15:19.905 --> 02:15:24.705 Some of it will be how can I learn to trust my gut or get in touch 02:15:24.705 --> 02:15:29.265 with my emotions dilemmas, but I don't want to go and activate D M T. 02:15:30.555 --> 02:15:31.305 I'm terrified. 02:15:31.545 --> 02:15:33.495 It's not legal where I am, blah blah. 02:15:33.585 --> 02:15:34.665 That's just not part of my thing. 02:15:35.175 --> 02:15:35.955 Blah, blah, blah. 02:15:35.955 --> 02:15:39.315 And of course we know that there's many roads to these things. 02:15:40.324 --> 02:15:45.784 Let's say that every dilemma is really one dilemma, and it's, 02:15:46.834 --> 02:15:48.304 I'm unhappy, I'm suffering. 02:15:48.984 --> 02:15:50.634 What's your advice? 02:15:51.634 --> 02:15:53.634 Warwick Schiller: Well, I think I'm, I'm unhappy in suffering too. 02:15:53.634 --> 02:15:59.064 So , what would my advice Well, after all that work, after all that work, yeah. 02:15:59.094 --> 02:15:59.784 I get your money back. 02:16:01.764 --> 02:16:02.544 No, I'm, yeah. 02:16:02.549 --> 02:16:07.884 I'm, I'm really with this whole self-development journey, I, I've, 02:16:08.094 --> 02:16:11.484 I've, I've just start, you know, I've, I've just started through another 02:16:11.484 --> 02:16:16.164 door to where, oh, you know, I've just topped the mountain, and I'm like, 02:16:16.674 --> 02:16:17.934 oh, now I can see another mountain. 02:16:17.934 --> 02:16:19.434 I thought I was getting to the top of this mountain. 02:16:19.434 --> 02:16:20.064 I can see another mountain. 02:16:20.464 --> 02:16:21.569 what would I say? 02:16:21.569 --> 02:16:27.149 I, you know, I, I love how in our conversations, Rupert, you're always 02:16:27.149 --> 02:16:34.949 talking about the hunter gatherers and how that's how we evolve to live. 02:16:35.969 --> 02:16:42.359 And the, it seems like all the problems we have these days have to do with 02:16:42.449 --> 02:16:49.259 a lack of connection, you know, lack of, and, and a lot of that's the way 02:16:49.259 --> 02:16:54.269 we were, you know, the way we were parented, the way society had us be. 02:16:54.299 --> 02:16:57.959 And I, I, I just think that finding ways. 02:17:00.284 --> 02:17:02.774 To connect to the rest of the world is kind of the answer to the thing. 02:17:02.774 --> 02:17:04.244 And I, we talked about horses before. 02:17:04.249 --> 02:17:09.164 I think that is one of the ways that we can start to connect with, you know, for 02:17:09.164 --> 02:17:11.324 me, I'm still not the best with people. 02:17:11.329 --> 02:17:14.504 The horses, I'm, I'm getting so much better with the, with 02:17:14.504 --> 02:17:15.704 the connection with them. 02:17:15.704 --> 02:17:19.754 I don't, I don't need to have walls up. 02:17:19.754 --> 02:17:24.044 I don't need to present anything other than the true me around horses. 02:17:24.284 --> 02:17:27.284 And I'm still working on that with the, with, with people. 02:17:27.289 --> 02:17:31.484 But I do think that, you know, as the Beatles said, all need is love. 02:17:31.489 --> 02:17:32.054 Basically. 02:17:32.414 --> 02:17:36.884 It's that connection I think is, and whatever way you can start 02:17:36.884 --> 02:17:43.274 to work on, on connection, I think that is the way forward. 02:17:43.784 --> 02:17:45.404 Rupert Isaacson: Look for connection and take it from there. 02:17:45.905 --> 02:17:46.685 Words to live by. 02:17:48.275 --> 02:17:50.185 Alright, Warwick, this has been amazing. 02:17:50.755 --> 02:17:52.375 I want to continue this conversation. 02:17:52.375 --> 02:17:56.335 So would you consent to coming on again so that we Oh, I'd love to. 02:17:57.925 --> 02:18:02.245 In the meantime, I'm gonna go back over these books, which I've been writing down. 02:18:02.245 --> 02:18:06.305 So let's just, cuz I'm sure people will want to, to, know them. 02:18:06.365 --> 02:18:09.015 So it started with, is it Dave Asprey? 02:18:09.485 --> 02:18:10.445 Dave Espree. 02:18:10.715 --> 02:18:13.535 Is it a S b u r y p. 02:18:13.955 --> 02:18:15.575 Warwick Schiller: Pri asi. 02:18:16.085 --> 02:18:16.575 Okay. 02:18:16.865 --> 02:18:18.035 Rupert Isaacson: A s p e r y. 02:18:18.305 --> 02:18:19.235 And that's the cosmic 02:18:19.235 --> 02:18:19.655 Warwick Schiller: serpent. 02:18:20.345 --> 02:18:21.065 No, no. 02:18:21.405 --> 02:18:23.445 , Dave Asprey's, the guy that wrote that book called Game 02:18:23.445 --> 02:18:24.075 Rupert Isaacson: Changers. 02:18:24.225 --> 02:18:28.035 Game Changers, Dave Asprey, game Changers, and then str. 02:18:28.035 --> 02:18:29.985 Warwick Schiller: Dave Asprey has, Dave Asprey has a podcast. 02:18:29.990 --> 02:18:36.305 He's very into, Dave Asprey's, very into, the health and wellness 02:18:37.115 --> 02:18:38.525 sphere sort of thing, you know? 02:18:39.035 --> 02:18:39.335 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 02:18:40.805 --> 02:18:45.245 Straussman Rick Straussman wrote Rickman Into The Spirit, 02:18:45.515 --> 02:18:48.905 the Spirit Molecule, D m T, the 02:18:48.905 --> 02:18:51.845 Warwick Schiller: Spirit Molecule. 02:18:51.845 --> 02:18:54.605 Molecule, uh, 02:18:55.295 --> 02:18:56.805 Rupert Isaacson: Karl Sfi, 02:18:58.155 --> 02:18:59.995 Warwick Schiller: S S A F I N A 02:19:00.755 --> 02:19:04.475 Rupert Isaacson: S A F I N A, Carl Safina title of the book. 02:19:06.125 --> 02:19:08.795 Warwick Schiller: It's called Beyond Words, what Animals Think and Feel. 02:19:10.925 --> 02:19:13.595 You know, it was interesting, I was gonna mention, I had a guy on the podcast in 02:19:13.595 --> 02:19:18.455 Australian guy that lives in Spain named Lockey Phillips, and he is very big into 02:19:18.995 --> 02:19:23.435 the emotions of animals, and he said, they say that animals don't feel emotions. 02:19:24.095 --> 02:19:25.775 He said they do feel emotions. 02:19:25.775 --> 02:19:28.265 They just don't have the same thoughts about them that we do, 02:19:28.550 --> 02:19:29.990 which I thought was very interesting. 02:19:30.485 --> 02:19:33.695 Rupert Isaacson: What thoughts does he say animals have about their emotions? 02:19:36.035 --> 02:19:37.025 Warwick Schiller: He says they don't. 02:19:37.595 --> 02:19:37.805 Okay. 02:19:38.975 --> 02:19:43.035 You know, it's kinda like, I've seen it, you know, in Australia, 02:19:43.035 --> 02:19:45.545 like, like growing up on the farm, like there might be a sheep. 02:19:45.545 --> 02:19:49.295 It's got a broken leg, and so it's out there hitting the grass. 02:19:49.445 --> 02:19:50.285 I've got a broken leg. 02:19:50.315 --> 02:19:54.305 You know, if you, if you, you know, I don't know if what you've got planned 02:19:55.175 --> 02:20:02.945 for next week, but let's say you were driving somewhere and had a car 02:20:02.945 --> 02:20:08.015 accident, broke your leg, you would have a broken leg, but you'd also have all 02:20:08.020 --> 02:20:11.105 this other anguish about your broken leg because Oh, I was gonna go to, 02:20:11.345 --> 02:20:13.055 and I was going to, and now I can't. 02:20:13.205 --> 02:20:17.975 And, and, and, and you know, all these things about that broken leg, 02:20:17.975 --> 02:20:23.525 whereas an animal, okay, a broken leg, here's some grass, I'm gonna eat it. 02:20:23.735 --> 02:20:25.475 Rupert Isaacson: Some people would say that's being shut down. 02:20:25.480 --> 02:20:26.585 If a human were to do that, 02:20:29.525 --> 02:20:31.025 Warwick Schiller: if the human were to do what the animal does. 02:20:31.355 --> 02:20:31.625 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:20:31.630 --> 02:20:35.955 If the human were to say, well, I'm not going to attach any emotion, therefore 02:20:35.955 --> 02:20:40.605 I'm shut down from my emotions, given that we're emotional animals, humans, 02:20:40.905 --> 02:20:41.205 Warwick Schiller: yeah. 02:20:41.535 --> 02:20:44.025 And that, that, that could be, but. 02:20:45.010 --> 02:20:46.590 , you know, you've gotta think about shutdown. 02:20:46.590 --> 02:20:49.590 And our friend, mutual friend Jane Pike is the one that really helped me with this. 02:20:50.280 --> 02:20:52.920 You know, once I learned that I was, I figured out that I'd 02:20:52.920 --> 02:20:53.850 been shut down in my life. 02:20:53.850 --> 02:20:55.980 Then I had a lot of judgment about being shut down. 02:20:55.980 --> 02:20:59.250 And then I realized, then I figured out why I was shut down. 02:21:00.030 --> 02:21:04.920 And, and, and what Jane made me realize is she said you had 02:21:04.920 --> 02:21:06.690 a good reason to shut down. 02:21:07.710 --> 02:21:09.690 And she said that, shut down. 02:21:09.690 --> 02:21:15.420 You've judged it poorly all your life, but when it happened, it was your best friend. 02:21:15.420 --> 02:21:18.690 It was your body taking care of you, your body's, that's supposed to happen. 02:21:18.690 --> 02:21:22.860 Your body is supposed to do that at that time, but you've hung onto it 02:21:22.860 --> 02:21:24.540 to where you don't need it anymore. 02:21:24.570 --> 02:21:26.760 But, and that's, that's what trauma is. 02:21:26.765 --> 02:21:27.780 Trauma's not what happened to you. 02:21:27.780 --> 02:21:32.820 Trauma is getting stuck in a certain place and not working through the thing. 02:21:32.820 --> 02:21:37.550 I mean, you know, if any animal gets, you know, I don't know, baby 02:21:37.550 --> 02:21:39.260 Gazelle gets grabbed by a lion. 02:21:40.250 --> 02:21:44.990 Okay, he's gonna go limp, he's gonna go into that flop thing and then 02:21:44.990 --> 02:21:46.400 Lion takes him back to his cubs. 02:21:46.400 --> 02:21:49.910 And if that line sits him down for two seconds cuz he thinks 02:21:49.915 --> 02:21:52.940 he's dead, that little baby, cuz I was gonna jump up and run off. 02:21:52.940 --> 02:21:55.400 And that, that's the completion of that trauma cycle. 02:21:56.270 --> 02:21:59.990 Whereas we not get eaten alive by lions and we can get stuck in that, that place 02:21:59.990 --> 02:22:04.400 to where I'm just gonna go in the freeze or the flop state right now because it's 02:22:04.400 --> 02:22:06.920 gonna help me if I get a chance to escape. 02:22:06.920 --> 02:22:07.310 Or escape. 02:22:07.310 --> 02:22:08.330 But then we don't, we don't actually. 02:22:09.515 --> 02:22:11.825 We don't actually haven't been captured by a line. 02:22:11.825 --> 02:22:19.385 But yeah, so Jane was the one that made me forgive, I dunno if it's myself, 02:22:19.390 --> 02:22:23.015 but, but, but come to terms with, Hey, that was a good thing when it happened. 02:22:23.075 --> 02:22:24.875 All emotions are supposed to happen. 02:22:24.995 --> 02:22:25.535 Yeah, sure. 02:22:25.955 --> 02:22:30.185 But they're supposed to have a beginning and an end and I think we get stuck 02:22:30.185 --> 02:22:32.735 in cycles of not working through. 02:22:34.235 --> 02:22:34.895 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 02:22:34.955 --> 02:22:39.785 I guess, I guess that in the wild state, let's say a deer gets hunted by, a wolf 02:22:41.165 --> 02:22:46.295 gets away, doesn't then need to have 10 years of therapy about it, goes back to 02:22:46.295 --> 02:22:48.545 its, original behavior pretty quick. 02:22:48.935 --> 02:22:54.155 What it might do is go through a shuttering phase where it, it shutters 02:22:54.155 --> 02:22:58.655 off the adrenaline shutters off the cortisol before it does that. 02:22:58.655 --> 02:23:01.415 And of course it's got to look around and make sure that there 02:23:01.475 --> 02:23:03.605 are no other walls, et cetera, but 02:23:03.675 --> 02:23:04.355 Warwick Schiller: it's not gonna carry it. 02:23:04.355 --> 02:23:04.435 Yeah. 02:23:04.435 --> 02:23:04.676 There's a book. 02:23:05.225 --> 02:23:05.315 Yeah. 02:23:05.315 --> 02:23:07.265 There's a really good book called Why Zebras Don't Have 02:23:07.265 --> 02:23:09.665 Ulcers, which is about Okay. 02:23:09.665 --> 02:23:09.785 Which 02:23:09.785 --> 02:23:14.355 Rupert Isaacson: is a, about that by who I don't, why is S don't have ulcer. 02:23:14.505 --> 02:23:14.895 Warwick Schiller: That's good. 02:23:14.925 --> 02:23:15.105 Yeah. 02:23:15.105 --> 02:23:16.505 Why is S don't have alt ulcers? 02:23:16.505 --> 02:23:17.535 I can't remember who that was by. 02:23:17.735 --> 02:23:20.225 Rupert Isaacson: no, of course they might cuz horses have ulcer, but Yeah. 02:23:20.435 --> 02:23:22.505 But probably cause of what humans do to them. 02:23:22.505 --> 02:23:22.655 Yeah. 02:23:23.105 --> 02:23:23.405 Warwick Schiller: Yes. 02:23:23.405 --> 02:23:24.735 Because of our, yeah. 02:23:25.055 --> 02:23:26.195 The way we're keeping in captivity. 02:23:26.495 --> 02:23:29.465 we've been talking about different things today and I said, I'm, I'm 02:23:29.465 --> 02:23:32.915 now down the next level of my rabbit hole and I'm gonna give you guys a. 02:23:33.635 --> 02:23:38.015 That I'm currently listening to that is so amazing. 02:23:38.015 --> 02:23:43.355 It's called healing the Shame that binds you, healing The shame, the 02:23:43.355 --> 02:23:47.615 shame that binds you, that binds you by a fellow name John Bradshaw. 02:23:50.075 --> 02:23:53.135 John with an H Brad. 02:23:53.135 --> 02:23:54.695 Yes, John with an H Bradshaw. 02:23:55.025 --> 02:23:55.205 Yeah. 02:23:55.825 --> 02:23:59.725 and another one, I'll tell you what, I've been down the rabbit hole of 02:23:59.725 --> 02:24:02.095 learning about all this stuff for a number of years now, but I listened 02:24:02.095 --> 02:24:06.535 to one book last year that basically covered all the stuff I've been 02:24:06.535 --> 02:24:07.885 reading about for the last five years. 02:24:08.095 --> 02:24:13.375 And it's the Myth of Normal by Gaul Matte, the Myth of Normal, normal 02:24:15.025 --> 02:24:22.135 by Gabel Matte, M a t g a b o R, and then Matt, g a b o r, matte as in mate 02:24:22.975 --> 02:24:24.805 Rupert Isaacson: matte with an accent on the end. 02:24:24.805 --> 02:24:24.895 Yes. 02:24:24.955 --> 02:24:26.965 M a t e with a yes. 02:24:26.970 --> 02:24:27.175 Acute 02:24:27.175 --> 02:24:27.805 Warwick Schiller: accent on the end. 02:24:28.195 --> 02:24:34.315 And, and that and that book basically, it, it's, you would, you would love it because 02:24:34.345 --> 02:24:40.405 he's all about, you know, what's become normal is not normal for how we evolve. 02:24:40.495 --> 02:24:43.405 Like he's, it's almost like Hunter gatherers had it sorted 02:24:43.405 --> 02:24:44.815 out and we've screwed it up. 02:24:44.905 --> 02:24:45.115 Yeah. 02:24:45.625 --> 02:24:48.115 Ever since it's a, it's a, yeah. 02:24:48.175 --> 02:24:49.045 Very, very good book. 02:24:49.885 --> 02:24:53.105 Rupert Isaacson: By the way, you also, the cosmic serpent, that was Jeremy 02:24:53.455 --> 02:24:55.465 Warwick Schiller: Nabi, N a n y, 02:24:55.470 --> 02:24:56.865 Rupert Isaacson: Jeremy Naby, the Cosmic sert. 02:24:57.145 --> 02:24:57.325 Yeah. 02:24:57.325 --> 02:25:00.095 Back to the, back to the hunter gatherer thing. 02:25:00.125 --> 02:25:01.565 I mean, of course we talked. 02:25:03.230 --> 02:25:08.620 A prey animal shuttering and shaking off the trauma of the, of getting 02:25:08.620 --> 02:25:14.380 away or going into a collapse mode where it might spring up and run away, 02:25:14.380 --> 02:25:19.090 but also if it finds itself getting eaten alive, going into that state 02:25:19.180 --> 02:25:24.380 of supreme endorphin, overload where it then doesn't, it's, it's sort of 02:25:24.380 --> 02:25:25.910 anesthetized, doesn't really feel pain. 02:25:25.915 --> 02:25:30.200 And there are these mechanisms and it goes into a very peaceful sort of estate. 02:25:30.200 --> 02:25:32.570 We've seen this in wildlife documentaries. 02:25:32.570 --> 02:25:35.000 I've seen it happen in Africa. 02:25:35.090 --> 02:25:35.150 Yeah. 02:25:35.150 --> 02:25:35.300 And I 02:25:35.300 --> 02:25:36.530 Warwick Schiller: think that's the shutdown state. 02:25:36.950 --> 02:25:39.980 Rupert Isaacson: What's interesting about, of course, if you're the hunter gatherer, 02:25:40.760 --> 02:25:44.060 the humans with our consciousness of our different seeming different 02:25:44.060 --> 02:25:46.850 consciousness is in our wild state. 02:25:46.910 --> 02:25:49.340 We have the shaman in our state. 02:25:49.340 --> 02:25:55.160 We have somebody within the, the community whose job is to wash our psychic 02:25:55.160 --> 02:26:01.370 dirty laundry every 10 days or so like that, often about every 10 days or so. 02:26:02.000 --> 02:26:05.390 We of course, haven't had that for an awful long time. 02:26:06.260 --> 02:26:15.740 So now we have inherited generations of psychic dirty laundry where that 02:26:15.740 --> 02:26:23.360 whole mechanism for quality of life really beyond survival or thriving. 02:26:25.490 --> 02:26:26.150 Has gone. 02:26:26.180 --> 02:26:31.490 It seems to me that this conversation happens to have happened 02:26:31.490 --> 02:26:34.550 through horses, but has led to 02:26:35.027 --> 02:26:42.197 a series of washings of the psychic dirty laundry in the hunter-gatherer 02:26:42.197 --> 02:26:51.737 style that has now deepened not only your way of going about the horse, but 02:26:51.737 --> 02:26:54.707 of course the way of going about life. 02:26:54.712 --> 02:26:59.537 Meaning that you, through this, found a way of producing that 02:26:59.537 --> 02:27:02.537 connection, which again is part of the hunter gatherer thing. 02:27:02.567 --> 02:27:04.757 The, the clan, the extended family. 02:27:04.757 --> 02:27:06.947 We, we work for each other's benefit. 02:27:06.947 --> 02:27:10.457 We do not work against each other in that situation because 02:27:10.457 --> 02:27:11.837 we just simply will not survive. 02:27:11.837 --> 02:27:16.247 It's not practical, but with agriculture it becomes competi. 02:27:16.247 --> 02:27:17.327 It became competitive. 02:27:18.257 --> 02:27:22.547 And one of the things which I was so impressed about with the Jo first, the 02:27:22.547 --> 02:27:30.142 Journey on podcast, your podcast and then the summit was you have produced 02:27:30.142 --> 02:27:34.852 one of those connected communities out of the post hunter gatherer estate. 02:27:36.772 --> 02:27:43.102 I would be interested to see if, where Journey on goes and where 02:27:43.612 --> 02:27:48.562 your new place goes and whatever new media you put out there, which 02:27:48.562 --> 02:27:49.612 of course you're going to, cuz. 02:27:50.887 --> 02:27:51.847 You're not gonna stop. 02:27:52.442 --> 02:27:54.392 It'll be part of that 02:27:55.625 --> 02:28:03.515 opus of bringing us all back towards that connectivity. 02:28:04.805 --> 02:28:05.765 it's important work. 02:28:06.035 --> 02:28:07.175 It's important work that you're doing. 02:28:07.408 --> 02:28:07.768 Warwick Schiller: Yeah. 02:28:07.773 --> 02:28:11.278 And I, yeah, I, that's, yeah, I think you got it where we're heading to. 02:28:11.308 --> 02:28:14.458 I just, you know, it's kinda like how I've got to this point. 02:28:14.458 --> 02:28:17.278 There's been no plan to get to this point and so the, I really don't have 02:28:17.278 --> 02:28:19.168 any plans to get to the, the next point. 02:28:19.168 --> 02:28:25.888 I'm just kind of open to whatever the universe points me out. 02:28:26.338 --> 02:28:26.578 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:28:27.958 --> 02:28:32.458 Which will probably be ever greater degrees of connectivity because 02:28:32.458 --> 02:28:33.508 it seems to have gone that way. 02:28:34.008 --> 02:28:35.198 It started with service. 02:28:36.258 --> 02:28:41.728 What greater service could there be than helping with connectivity? 02:28:42.351 --> 02:28:42.801 Alright. 02:28:44.901 --> 02:28:45.351 Amazing. 02:28:46.281 --> 02:28:46.761 Thank you. 02:28:48.801 --> 02:28:51.831 I think if it's all right, we leave it there for this time. 02:28:53.331 --> 02:28:59.901 I'm gonna go away and Stew and Mal come back with a bunch of questions please. 02:29:00.936 --> 02:29:01.521 , can we 02:29:01.731 --> 02:29:02.241 Warwick Schiller: resume? 02:29:03.411 --> 02:29:03.981 I'd love to. 02:29:03.981 --> 02:29:04.971 I'd love to resume. 02:29:06.261 --> 02:29:07.131 Alright then. 02:29:07.341 --> 02:29:07.971 Rupert Isaacson: I look forward to it. 02:29:07.971 --> 02:29:08.481 It's booked. 02:29:09.751 --> 02:29:10.106 Warwick. 02:29:10.106 --> 02:29:10.616 Thank you. 02:29:11.006 --> 02:29:11.996 An honor as always. 02:29:14.096 --> 02:29:17.396 , for the listeners, you've been listening to the Live Free Ride Free podcast. 02:29:18.476 --> 02:29:21.726 , I will have all warwick's, , contacts. 02:29:22.796 --> 02:29:26.446 , you can go and live in his house and eat his food and , make 02:29:26.451 --> 02:29:27.436 bad smells in his toilet. 02:29:27.526 --> 02:29:30.736 And he will not mind the next three months, but his wife might. 02:29:31.566 --> 02:29:33.456 , but I will tell you how to be in contact with him. 02:29:33.936 --> 02:29:35.076 The Journey on podcast. 02:29:35.076 --> 02:29:35.886 You need to check it out. 02:29:36.936 --> 02:29:38.856 The Journey on Summit, you need to check it out. 02:29:39.486 --> 02:29:42.366 , and attune horsemanship, you need to check it out. 02:29:42.366 --> 02:29:46.146 But I will be giving all the web and other links as well. 02:29:47.456 --> 02:29:50.166 Anything last that you wanna add before we sign out? 02:29:51.856 --> 02:29:52.096 , Warwick Schiller: no. 02:29:52.096 --> 02:29:54.436 It's just that it's been a, an absolute honor and a pleasure 02:29:54.436 --> 02:29:55.246 chatting with you again. 02:29:55.246 --> 02:29:56.506 As it as it is always. 02:29:57.676 --> 02:29:58.426 Well, thank you. 02:29:59.576 --> 02:30:03.031 Rupert Isaacson: Alright, , I'm gonna do the click off thing 02:30:03.631 --> 02:30:06.391 and I guess we will reconvene. 02:30:06.989 --> 02:30:08.099 Thank you for joining us. 02:30:08.129 --> 02:30:09.959 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 02:30:10.198 --> 02:30:15.238 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 02:30:15.238 --> 02:30:20.428 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 02:30:21.135 --> 02:30:25.784 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 02:30:25.784 --> 02:30:27.794 dealing with trauma around the world. 02:30:28.121 --> 02:30:31.871 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 02:30:31.871 --> 02:30:35.111 for riders on long ride home.com. 02:30:35.409 --> 02:30:39.459 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 02:30:39.459 --> 02:30:41.379 bring you and your horse joy. 02:30:41.916 --> 02:30:46.476 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 02:30:46.806 --> 02:30:47.736 See you on the next show. 02:30:48.148 --> 02:30:50.838 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.