1 00:00:01,650 --> 00:00:05,850 Unlike in some other industries, product led growth, it doesn't mean growth without 2 00:00:05,940 --> 00:00:09,540 guardrails when you're working within digital health or healthcare, right? 3 00:00:09,540 --> 00:00:12,540 I think that's critical, but I think it's also thinking about 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:17,610 letting the product prove value within the real world use case. 5 00:00:17,790 --> 00:00:21,240 You have to be really thoughtful in when you're creating a product 6 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:23,895 that's impacting clinical outcomes. 7 00:00:24,045 --> 00:00:27,495 We have these experiences in healthcare that really rub us the wrong way. 8 00:00:27,495 --> 00:00:29,415 We have a negative connotation around healthcare. 9 00:00:29,415 --> 00:00:33,765 So if you can create a digital experience that's a delight to use, it's easy to 10 00:00:33,765 --> 00:00:38,025 use, it's made your life easier, then you're likely to have people talk about 11 00:00:38,025 --> 00:00:39,345 and start to have that organic growth. 12 00:00:39,345 --> 00:00:42,975 So the product itself really becomes the driver of trust, 13 00:00:43,065 --> 00:00:44,865 engagement, and ultimately scale. 14 00:00:54,519 --> 00:00:58,300 Hello and welcome to Hard Problems, Smart Solutions, the Newfire Podcast 15 00:00:58,330 --> 00:01:01,989 where we explore the toughest challenges and the smartest solutions with leaders 16 00:01:01,989 --> 00:01:03,400 across technology and healthcare. 17 00:01:03,849 --> 00:01:06,970 I'm Will Crawford, the head of advisory services at Newfire, and 18 00:01:06,970 --> 00:01:08,110 I'm your host for this episode. 19 00:01:10,076 --> 00:01:14,126 So today's episode is a deep dive into the reality of building and scaling 20 00:01:14,126 --> 00:01:18,656 digital platforms in an increasingly crowded market for healthcare solutions. 21 00:01:18,941 --> 00:01:22,241 I'm very happy to be joined by Alexis Levine McKenna, the former chief 22 00:01:22,241 --> 00:01:25,841 product and technology officer at Huddle Up Care, and a product leader 23 00:01:25,841 --> 00:01:29,771 who's worked at the intersection of care delivery, platform strategy, and 24 00:01:29,771 --> 00:01:31,481 clinical innovation for over a decade. 25 00:01:31,873 --> 00:01:34,823 Alexis brings a great perspective on something that's very close to my 26 00:01:34,823 --> 00:01:39,193 heart; how do you keep clinicians, caregivers, and patient outcomes 27 00:01:39,463 --> 00:01:42,943 at the heart of everything you're trying to build, while also adjusting 28 00:01:42,943 --> 00:01:46,923 to markets that are changing on what seems like a day-to-day basis? 29 00:01:47,430 --> 00:01:49,740 We'll also get to spend a little bit of time, I hope, talking about the 30 00:01:49,740 --> 00:01:53,940 challenges of managing both product and technology delivery at the same time. 31 00:01:54,366 --> 00:01:55,926 So Alexis, thanks for joining us today. 32 00:01:56,656 --> 00:01:58,201 Thanks Will for having me, I'm excited to be here. 33 00:01:59,101 --> 00:02:01,381 So let's start by talking about your journey. 34 00:02:01,631 --> 00:02:04,871 You've held leadership roles in both sort of early stage and growth 35 00:02:04,871 --> 00:02:09,431 stage companies but your path into product and technology, wasn't, going 36 00:02:09,431 --> 00:02:10,571 to school for product management. 37 00:02:10,741 --> 00:02:13,591 So, can you just take us back to the beginning and tell us a bit 38 00:02:13,591 --> 00:02:16,561 about what drew you into digital health and how did that evolve? 39 00:02:16,936 --> 00:02:18,016 Yeah, absolutely. 40 00:02:18,016 --> 00:02:22,226 So definitely didn't follow the conventional path, but joined 41 00:02:22,226 --> 00:02:26,456 an early-stage startup that was in the digital health field. 42 00:02:26,456 --> 00:02:31,166 Digital health was sort of a new emerging term, quite frankly, in field 43 00:02:31,166 --> 00:02:35,766 at the time and joined when they were less than 10 people at this company. 44 00:02:35,766 --> 00:02:39,396 We were focused on building technology to support corporate health and wellness. 45 00:02:39,921 --> 00:02:44,191 And I was team member number seven asked to come in and help, jump in 46 00:02:44,191 --> 00:02:48,721 and help with the sales organization and help figure out how do we sell our 47 00:02:48,721 --> 00:02:50,821 product that was brand new at that time. 48 00:02:50,821 --> 00:02:52,741 It was really just a health risk assessment. 49 00:02:52,741 --> 00:02:56,281 So very basic, trying to understand the health of a population 50 00:02:56,531 --> 00:02:57,821 and how do we scale that. 51 00:02:57,821 --> 00:03:01,841 And so, as you can imagine when you join an early-stage startup, 52 00:03:02,111 --> 00:03:03,756 um, you're wearing a lot of hats. 53 00:03:03,911 --> 00:03:07,211 So even though I was brought in to help on the sales side of the organization 54 00:03:07,211 --> 00:03:10,511 and jumped in to help you with marketing, if you're working across the 55 00:03:10,511 --> 00:03:13,901 organization, it's all hands on deck and quite frankly, you have to get scrappy. 56 00:03:14,001 --> 00:03:18,531 And so I was working very closely with our small engineering organization. 57 00:03:18,771 --> 00:03:23,361 We didn't have a formal product organization at the time but we had a 58 00:03:23,361 --> 00:03:27,441 weekly product development meeting where the entire company, would actually sit 59 00:03:27,441 --> 00:03:32,471 down, go through the product, whiteboard, ideate, look at feedback we were 60 00:03:32,471 --> 00:03:34,571 getting from customers, from prospects, 61 00:03:34,721 --> 00:03:37,871 look at data that we were collecting and start to really 62 00:03:37,931 --> 00:03:40,211 build out the product and scale it. 63 00:03:40,361 --> 00:03:42,921 And I quickly realized that's what I love doing. 64 00:03:42,981 --> 00:03:47,781 I love to make an impact in building out a product, building out a product that can 65 00:03:47,901 --> 00:03:52,481 impact lives and clinicians and that the sales part of the organization was fun. 66 00:03:52,511 --> 00:03:56,021 It was great to talk to customers and prospects and learn what their needs 67 00:03:56,021 --> 00:04:00,731 were, and it really created a foundation and appreciation for me of understanding 68 00:04:00,761 --> 00:04:03,221 what creates value for end users. 69 00:04:03,601 --> 00:04:06,661 But it was a nice foundation to jump into product eventually. 70 00:04:07,918 --> 00:04:12,429 And even at that early stage, thinking about that exposure that a sales team 71 00:04:13,684 --> 00:04:18,664 gets to client needs, what did you learn early on about translating that sort 72 00:04:18,664 --> 00:04:21,364 of sales motion, into product motion? 73 00:04:22,079 --> 00:04:22,719 Yeah absolutely. 74 00:04:22,719 --> 00:04:27,889 I think listening to your potential customers, if they're leads at that point, 75 00:04:27,949 --> 00:04:33,949 or customers, right, is really critical and core to building a successful product. 76 00:04:34,759 --> 00:04:39,079 So understanding what differentiates you in the market, what is not 77 00:04:39,079 --> 00:04:42,709 working, what is working well, what is keeping customers happy was critical. 78 00:04:42,799 --> 00:04:47,599 And being able to dilute that feedback for a technical organization 79 00:04:47,809 --> 00:04:52,399 to say, Hey, we need to make this iteration or adjustment was key. 80 00:04:52,609 --> 00:04:54,679 So I quickly learned the importance of documentation. 81 00:04:54,859 --> 00:05:00,779 That was one core piece that I learned is documentation is gold and important when 82 00:05:00,779 --> 00:05:04,164 you're working across an organization and when you're collecting feedback. 83 00:05:04,434 --> 00:05:05,544 Also quickly learned 84 00:05:05,814 --> 00:05:07,554 one customer is one customer. 85 00:05:07,554 --> 00:05:12,804 So you really need to understand right across your customer base, uh, and 86 00:05:12,804 --> 00:05:17,784 across the market, quite frankly, what the needs are, and not just be reactive, 87 00:05:17,934 --> 00:05:20,664 really making sure that you're being thoughtful in your decision-making 88 00:05:20,664 --> 00:05:22,554 so you're not pivoting too much. 89 00:05:22,884 --> 00:05:26,474 But then also making sure that you are listening to the qualitative 90 00:05:26,474 --> 00:05:29,984 feedback, but validating it with quantitative data as well. 91 00:05:30,818 --> 00:05:34,753 At a company like MediKeeper, you have, a clinical element as well. 92 00:05:35,083 --> 00:05:38,106 So when you were out there in the field, in that sales role and 93 00:05:38,106 --> 00:05:41,376 then, taking on more of that product responsibility, what were some of 94 00:05:41,376 --> 00:05:44,406 the first things that you learned or maybe that you wish you had known at 95 00:05:44,406 --> 00:05:48,976 that point around managing clinical stakeholders, both as customers, but 96 00:05:48,976 --> 00:05:54,227 also as part of the delivery organization for the company that you're working for. 97 00:05:54,961 --> 00:05:57,181 Yeah, I mean, I think what I quickly learned with clinical 98 00:05:57,181 --> 00:06:00,651 stakeholders is often that they don't have a lot of time, right? 99 00:06:00,651 --> 00:06:06,871 So they're often busy trying to see patients or have other responsibilities. 100 00:06:06,871 --> 00:06:10,711 So making sure that you're very direct and to the point with them and 101 00:06:10,711 --> 00:06:16,246 transparent is key I have found to building trust and being able to get 102 00:06:16,436 --> 00:06:19,316 feedback from clinical stakeholders. 103 00:06:19,586 --> 00:06:24,026 One thing that I, I wish I knew was how important it was 104 00:06:24,026 --> 00:06:25,226 for clinical stakeholders. 105 00:06:25,436 --> 00:06:29,531 They wanna hear how it's going to impact their lives, their patients' 106 00:06:29,531 --> 00:06:32,561 lives, and how it's ultimately gonna drive clinical outcomes. 107 00:06:32,711 --> 00:06:33,011 Right. 108 00:06:33,011 --> 00:06:36,791 And so if you can explain quickly, especially the sales process when you're 109 00:06:36,971 --> 00:06:42,421 showing a product that is often, in my experience, it's always been platforms or 110 00:06:42,421 --> 00:06:46,771 apps, I think clinicians can be a little bit wary sometimes of technology and 111 00:06:47,041 --> 00:06:49,111 nervous about adopting new technology. 112 00:06:49,111 --> 00:06:52,231 They question, is this going to make my life easier or is 113 00:06:52,231 --> 00:06:53,491 it going to be burdensome? 114 00:06:53,701 --> 00:06:59,681 So being able to explain how it fits into their existing workflows and 115 00:06:59,681 --> 00:07:04,211 how it it fits into their patients' existing workflows or makes it easier 116 00:07:04,211 --> 00:07:08,201 for their patients to interact with the services, uh, that they're trying 117 00:07:08,201 --> 00:07:10,196 to get is really, really critical. 118 00:07:10,226 --> 00:07:13,766 So I think what I wish I would've known is that I, I knew what made clinicians 119 00:07:13,766 --> 00:07:16,556 tick at that time, which I just didn't have the experience to know it yet. 120 00:07:16,616 --> 00:07:19,256 And so after working with clinicians for quite a few years, 121 00:07:19,256 --> 00:07:20,516 you start to understand it. 122 00:07:21,375 --> 00:07:24,785 So after MediKeeper you joined what is now Huddle Up Care? 123 00:07:24,815 --> 00:07:26,795 I think it was called DotCom Therapy at the time. 124 00:07:27,255 --> 00:07:28,425 So what did you walk into there? 125 00:07:28,425 --> 00:07:31,036 What brought you what, what made you go from point A to point B? 126 00:07:31,735 --> 00:07:32,335 Yeah, absolutely. 127 00:07:32,335 --> 00:07:36,255 So had built MediKeeper, we had quite a bit of success with 128 00:07:36,525 --> 00:07:38,235 large payers at that point. 129 00:07:38,235 --> 00:07:41,775 We're working with some really impressive employer groups and felt like I had, 130 00:07:41,780 --> 00:07:45,865 uh, run with the company and really helped it grow to be successful and was 131 00:07:45,865 --> 00:07:47,335 ready to just take on a new challenge. 132 00:07:47,335 --> 00:07:50,785 And so when I jumped into Huddle Up, Huddle Up was at an 133 00:07:50,785 --> 00:07:54,055 interesting point in that they had recently introduced technology. 134 00:07:54,055 --> 00:07:55,135 They were scaling. 135 00:07:55,425 --> 00:07:57,045 Telehealth was taking off. 136 00:07:57,045 --> 00:07:59,025 It was right after COVID. 137 00:07:59,025 --> 00:08:01,995 So as we all know, telehealth was having its moment. 138 00:08:02,215 --> 00:08:06,785 And I walked into an organization that again had a small engineering 139 00:08:06,785 --> 00:08:10,500 team, didn't have any formal product function and really needed to mature 140 00:08:10,500 --> 00:08:14,100 the product organization as well as assess where the current product was. 141 00:08:14,330 --> 00:08:18,470 What I quickly learned was that the product was built in a scrappy way, which 142 00:08:18,470 --> 00:08:23,700 is quite common is we all know when you walk into a growth stage or early stage 143 00:08:23,700 --> 00:08:26,670 company, they're usually just trying to get a product out there to see how 144 00:08:26,670 --> 00:08:28,730 the market reacts and realize that, 145 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,355 the product that they built just wasn't going to scale. 146 00:08:31,445 --> 00:08:36,425 It wasn't built to scale and grow as the company was scaling and growing. 147 00:08:36,515 --> 00:08:40,765 And so we really needed to rethink our architecture from a technical perspective, 148 00:08:40,765 --> 00:08:46,735 but also rethink how were we engaging with our end-users, so all of our stakeholders. 149 00:08:47,690 --> 00:08:49,610 So how do those two factors combine? 150 00:08:49,610 --> 00:08:52,340 You're looking at the technology and the architecture, also it 151 00:08:52,340 --> 00:08:57,130 sounds like you had some product, feature function, engagement model. 152 00:08:57,520 --> 00:08:59,440 How do you thread, how did you thread those together? 153 00:08:59,762 --> 00:09:02,942 So I think if we first look at the architecture, in some 154 00:09:02,942 --> 00:09:06,092 ways that feels easier, right, it's really kind of a technical 155 00:09:06,092 --> 00:09:08,792 assessment of where are we today. 156 00:09:09,012 --> 00:09:13,047 And so we were on a monolith where there wasn't really separation of 157 00:09:13,047 --> 00:09:17,307 priorities and we were already seeing bugs and things breaking, and we're 158 00:09:17,307 --> 00:09:21,237 starting to get negative feedback and quite frankly, starting to lose trust. 159 00:09:21,507 --> 00:09:25,497 From a product perspective though, it gave me an opportunity if we were 160 00:09:25,497 --> 00:09:29,967 going to re-architect the platform, it was a great opportunity to rethink as 161 00:09:29,967 --> 00:09:32,367 well how we wanted the product to work. 162 00:09:32,517 --> 00:09:36,357 So began to really dig into understanding our stakeholders. 163 00:09:36,357 --> 00:09:40,077 again, sort of like the question you asked about clinicians, what makes them tick? 164 00:09:40,654 --> 00:09:43,019 How can we create value for our end-users? 165 00:09:43,039 --> 00:09:45,649 So at Huddle Up, we were a little bit unique in that. 166 00:09:45,884 --> 00:09:49,384 We had our own set of clinicians, so we had therapists that we were 167 00:09:49,384 --> 00:09:52,474 working with, mental health counselors, speech therapists, occupational 168 00:09:52,474 --> 00:09:54,304 therapists, and school psychologists. 169 00:09:54,784 --> 00:10:00,544 And then we also had families and patients or students, so primarily kids and 170 00:10:00,544 --> 00:10:02,164 adolescents that we were working with. 171 00:10:02,594 --> 00:10:05,074 And then we also had the school setting we were working within. 172 00:10:05,074 --> 00:10:08,684 So multiple stakeholders that we really had to consider and figure 173 00:10:08,684 --> 00:10:12,644 out how can we engage with them through the care process as well as 174 00:10:12,644 --> 00:10:14,204 differentiate ourselves in the market. 175 00:10:15,411 --> 00:10:17,751 And before we go any further, could you actually just for the 176 00:10:17,751 --> 00:10:21,111 listeners, share a little bit about Huddle Up's operating model? 177 00:10:21,366 --> 00:10:22,266 Yeah, absolutely. 178 00:10:22,716 --> 00:10:25,826 So Huddle Up started as a pediatric teletherapy company. 179 00:10:26,226 --> 00:10:31,546 We were focused on selling primarily into school districts and offering teletherapy 180 00:10:31,546 --> 00:10:34,276 services to support IEP students. 181 00:10:34,276 --> 00:10:35,956 So individualized education plans. 182 00:10:35,956 --> 00:10:41,201 So think of that as your highest need, highest acuity kids who are required to 183 00:10:41,201 --> 00:10:43,001 get these services by our government. 184 00:10:43,251 --> 00:10:48,501 And so we would step in and help the school provide those required services. 185 00:10:48,681 --> 00:10:51,231 Over time, Huddle Up evolved and scaled. 186 00:10:51,231 --> 00:10:55,791 IEP was still at the core of our business, but then we also began to offer our 187 00:10:55,791 --> 00:10:59,931 services to other populations within a school, and then also started to 188 00:10:59,931 --> 00:11:03,326 work outside of the school with payers and extend into other communities. 189 00:11:03,586 --> 00:11:07,666 And so how did the value proposition of what Huddle Up was bringing to 190 00:11:07,666 --> 00:11:11,546 schools and communities evolve over your time as chief product officer? 191 00:11:11,951 --> 00:11:14,921 Yeah, I think it's very similar to a lot of other teletherapy companies, right? 192 00:11:14,921 --> 00:11:16,241 Where initially it was access. 193 00:11:16,301 --> 00:11:21,491 It was all about how do you get access to these critical services, which was 194 00:11:21,491 --> 00:11:25,301 the core of teletherapy, and that was really successful at the beginning. 195 00:11:25,331 --> 00:11:30,881 But as we moved through COVID and as time evolved, we realized that access 196 00:11:30,881 --> 00:11:35,471 wasn't enough, and so we needed to drive those clinical outcomes forward, 197 00:11:35,646 --> 00:11:38,286 as well as create differentiation in the market. 198 00:11:38,406 --> 00:11:42,926 And to do that, we wanted to light up the circle around the student. 199 00:11:42,986 --> 00:11:46,556 So how do we engage with their parents or caregivers? 200 00:11:46,556 --> 00:11:48,866 It could be grandparents, it could be foster parents. 201 00:11:49,226 --> 00:11:51,746 How do we engage with the school, right? 202 00:11:51,836 --> 00:11:54,956 And make sure that the school nurse or teachers who were engaging 203 00:11:54,956 --> 00:11:57,926 with the student regularly were involved in the care as well. 204 00:11:58,176 --> 00:11:59,526 As well as with our own clinicians. 205 00:11:59,526 --> 00:12:05,031 Our clinicians were saying to us, Hey, a child or an adolescent is very different 206 00:12:05,031 --> 00:12:08,541 than an adult and that there's so many people around them who are helping 207 00:12:08,541 --> 00:12:09,711 with their growth and development. 208 00:12:10,131 --> 00:12:11,931 So how can we light up that circle around them? 209 00:12:11,931 --> 00:12:15,231 And that's where we felt like technology could really do so by pulling in 210 00:12:15,231 --> 00:12:19,221 those stakeholders, creating a care ecosystem, and making sure that we were 211 00:12:19,221 --> 00:12:23,731 enabling their caregivers or support system to enable them to continue 212 00:12:23,731 --> 00:12:24,456 in their growth and development. 213 00:12:24,526 --> 00:12:29,817 So as you were expanding the focus from the schools to that 214 00:12:29,817 --> 00:12:32,887 broader care ecosystem, what were some of the new challenges? 215 00:12:32,897 --> 00:12:35,837 How did you have to reconfigure the company or the product team? 216 00:12:35,837 --> 00:12:36,587 Or the product? 217 00:12:37,617 --> 00:12:38,177 Yeah, absolutely. 218 00:12:38,177 --> 00:12:42,557 So I think you moving away from just being a pure teletherapy company 219 00:12:42,557 --> 00:12:45,647 where teletherapy was still at the core of what we were doing, right? 220 00:12:45,647 --> 00:12:49,667 So of course we were still providing those sessions and making sure that our IEP 221 00:12:49,667 --> 00:12:52,727 students were getting the care they needed and any other students we were touching 222 00:12:52,727 --> 00:12:54,077 were getting that care they needed. 223 00:12:54,407 --> 00:13:00,002 But, we wanted to solve more than just the isolated problem of providing services. 224 00:13:00,052 --> 00:13:06,847 And so we started to think through how do we engage with this broader ecosystem, 225 00:13:06,937 --> 00:13:09,127 which posed quite a few challenges. 226 00:13:09,397 --> 00:13:13,507 It also was a shift for the organization for Huddle Up, right. 227 00:13:13,507 --> 00:13:19,477 And so I think Huddle Up started really as a teletherapy, a services company. 228 00:13:19,637 --> 00:13:23,777 And shifting to being more tech-focused, where tech was really playing a pivotal 229 00:13:23,777 --> 00:13:27,467 role in how we were differentiating ourselves in the market was a shift for 230 00:13:27,467 --> 00:13:33,062 the culture of the company in addition to o ur clients and customers, and so there 231 00:13:33,062 --> 00:13:35,012 were multiple challenges that we faced. 232 00:13:35,252 --> 00:13:40,992 One was figuring out how do we engage with parents, how do we engage with 233 00:13:41,052 --> 00:13:43,062 teachers and staff at a school? 234 00:13:43,322 --> 00:13:48,842 Realizing that not every parent or a caretaker has a lot of time or capacity. 235 00:13:49,252 --> 00:13:52,912 And so we had to be really thoughtful and that required coordination and tight 236 00:13:52,912 --> 00:13:58,312 coordination with our CS counterparts and our commercial counterparts in the 237 00:13:58,312 --> 00:14:01,542 organization as well as marketing to make sure that we were coordinating 238 00:14:01,542 --> 00:14:04,482 with the school to figure out how we could engage regularly with parents, 239 00:14:04,482 --> 00:14:08,522 both through the product and through the schools' different mechanisms. 240 00:14:08,822 --> 00:14:13,122 And then same kind of challenges with the school as well of determining how 241 00:14:13,122 --> 00:14:18,792 can we get engaged with key players at a school outside of just the services. 242 00:14:20,116 --> 00:14:24,994 And how dramatically did the underlying technology platform have to change 243 00:14:24,994 --> 00:14:26,614 to support that ecosystem approach? 244 00:14:27,299 --> 00:14:29,314 We completely rebuilt our platform. 245 00:14:29,314 --> 00:14:30,544 We re-architected. 246 00:14:30,674 --> 00:14:33,494 So we moved from a monolith to microservices. 247 00:14:33,624 --> 00:14:37,829 We built a completely new front end UI/UX and we really 248 00:14:37,859 --> 00:14:40,139 redesigned the entire experience. 249 00:14:40,349 --> 00:14:43,589 We also had to rethink our clinician's experience, right? 250 00:14:43,589 --> 00:14:47,774 Because now they were going to have parents engaging potentially in the 251 00:14:47,774 --> 00:14:51,074 care, although the parents weren't at school when the sessions were taking 252 00:14:51,074 --> 00:14:55,034 place generally, but our clinicians still wanted to be in the loop and 253 00:14:55,034 --> 00:14:59,114 be able to enable parents, right to engage in care if they wanted to. 254 00:14:59,454 --> 00:15:03,174 And so we had to rethink how can we better support our clinicians to make 255 00:15:03,174 --> 00:15:07,404 them more efficient, more effective, and keep our providers' satisfaction 256 00:15:07,404 --> 00:15:09,594 high as we navigated this shift. 257 00:15:09,653 --> 00:15:13,163 So how did the model change when you did bring the parents more 258 00:15:13,163 --> 00:15:14,633 actively into the conversation? 259 00:15:15,121 --> 00:15:18,711 Yeah, I think it was a bit of a mindset shift for our clinicians. 260 00:15:18,711 --> 00:15:20,481 I think some clinicians were really excited. 261 00:15:20,661 --> 00:15:24,741 They wanted to be able to offer content and exercises for parents 262 00:15:24,741 --> 00:15:26,211 to better understand diagnosis. 263 00:15:26,211 --> 00:15:28,641 They also felt like the visibility was important. 264 00:15:29,031 --> 00:15:32,661 Other clinicians were nervous that it was going to create more work for them, right? 265 00:15:32,661 --> 00:15:35,481 If they were getting questions from parents or visibility, was 266 00:15:35,481 --> 00:15:38,686 that going to create more work for them and they're already so busy. 267 00:15:38,926 --> 00:15:43,306 So really being transparent about the expectations and how we were going to 268 00:15:43,306 --> 00:15:48,856 build tools and evolve the technology as we saw parent engagement and how they're 269 00:15:48,856 --> 00:15:54,811 engaging with our platform to enable our clinicians to easily engage with 270 00:15:54,811 --> 00:15:56,971 parents and bring them into the care fold. 271 00:15:57,001 --> 00:16:00,961 And so things we thought about and what we were considering was, for 272 00:16:00,961 --> 00:16:06,121 example, how do you use AI to suggest recommendations or content to parents 273 00:16:06,421 --> 00:16:08,131 based on what's happening in a session. 274 00:16:08,793 --> 00:16:14,323 One example that comes to mind is we often were hearing from schools and 275 00:16:14,323 --> 00:16:18,163 from families that they just didn't understand the diagnosis of their child. 276 00:16:18,163 --> 00:16:21,853 So if their child was diagnosed with a specific condition they 277 00:16:21,853 --> 00:16:23,233 often didn't really understand it. 278 00:16:23,233 --> 00:16:26,743 And so something as simple as just providing them with an article or 279 00:16:26,743 --> 00:16:29,563 video or content was really powerful. 280 00:16:29,563 --> 00:16:33,373 And I know it sounds quite simple, but it made it easier for parents 281 00:16:33,373 --> 00:16:36,823 to consume and understand what was happening with their child. 282 00:16:37,533 --> 00:16:40,593 So we'll come back to talking about AI in a little, in a little bit. 283 00:16:40,623 --> 00:16:44,973 But before we do that you were eventually promoted and took the sort of chief 284 00:16:44,973 --> 00:16:46,833 product and technology officer role. 285 00:16:46,833 --> 00:16:51,003 So stepping into the technology leadership side, having come 286 00:16:51,003 --> 00:16:55,233 from the commercialization and then product background, what 287 00:16:55,233 --> 00:16:56,553 was that transition like for you? 288 00:16:57,318 --> 00:17:00,668 Yeah, it felt a little nerve wracking, of course, the time. 289 00:17:00,668 --> 00:17:04,398 But I'd been collaborating incredibly closely with my technical 290 00:17:04,398 --> 00:17:06,258 counterparts for years at that point. 291 00:17:06,508 --> 00:17:07,858 It was exciting also. 292 00:17:07,858 --> 00:17:13,538 So I think the big shift for me was moving from just being product focused, thinking 293 00:17:13,538 --> 00:17:17,958 about our product strategy and managing our product and design teams to really 294 00:17:17,958 --> 00:17:23,718 thinking about how do we orchestrate alignment across the entire technical org 295 00:17:23,778 --> 00:17:25,213 including product, right? 296 00:17:25,543 --> 00:17:30,793 And that meant building a truly cross-functional team and making sure that 297 00:17:30,853 --> 00:17:33,313 we were working as a unified organization. 298 00:17:33,543 --> 00:17:38,513 To do that, I had to think about, how do I look at these multiple disciplines, create 299 00:17:38,543 --> 00:17:43,343 OKRs, a tie to the broader business goals, and really start to manage this as one? 300 00:17:43,793 --> 00:17:47,303 I think I gained a much deeper appreciation working and managing the 301 00:17:47,303 --> 00:17:51,513 technical side of the organization for context and I realized that 302 00:17:51,843 --> 00:17:56,283 our engineering team was quite siloed, product has the benefit of 303 00:17:56,403 --> 00:17:58,233 working across the organization. 304 00:17:58,423 --> 00:18:00,703 Really making sure that we were working cross-functionally, 305 00:18:00,703 --> 00:18:01,993 so we had a lot of visibility. 306 00:18:02,563 --> 00:18:05,803 I, I realized quickly that engineering didn't always have that 307 00:18:05,803 --> 00:18:09,403 visibility, and I think that's quite common in a lot of organizations. 308 00:18:09,613 --> 00:18:12,043 So I needed to figure out how do I break down those silos? 309 00:18:12,043 --> 00:18:16,633 And I realized that context sharing the why was really important 310 00:18:16,873 --> 00:18:19,273 for my technical team members. 311 00:18:19,333 --> 00:18:24,083 And so I quickly started to implement sessions before we developed a feature 312 00:18:24,083 --> 00:18:28,973 or within my, cross-functional team meetings explaining why we were 313 00:18:28,973 --> 00:18:32,063 building something in the context in the business, the context across the 314 00:18:32,063 --> 00:18:36,533 market, as well as sharing what are the key metrics or KPIs that we're tracking 315 00:18:36,713 --> 00:18:38,693 when we were rolling out a feature. 316 00:18:38,933 --> 00:18:42,293 And I think that really changed the mindset for us of 317 00:18:42,293 --> 00:18:43,793 our technical organization. 318 00:18:44,003 --> 00:18:48,263 Our technical team started to see how their work was tying to key 319 00:18:48,263 --> 00:18:52,043 clinical outcomes or metrics, how it was impacting our clinicians. 320 00:18:52,283 --> 00:18:55,973 They could also see how it was impacting our end users, like our patients and 321 00:18:55,973 --> 00:18:59,513 families, and it really was a game changer for morale and velocity. 322 00:19:00,614 --> 00:19:03,074 So let's do a little more, a little more block and tackle and 323 00:19:03,074 --> 00:19:04,724 and talk about product roadmaps. 324 00:19:04,784 --> 00:19:11,324 Uh, how did you, I both at MediKeeper and at Huddle Up think about optimizing 325 00:19:11,324 --> 00:19:14,644 that roadmap to both sort of the engineering realities, the commercial 326 00:19:14,644 --> 00:19:16,294 realities and the clinical realities. 327 00:19:16,744 --> 00:19:18,784 Maybe some tips and tricks for the, uh, listeners. 328 00:19:19,109 --> 00:19:21,269 Yeah, always a fun balancing act. 329 00:19:21,509 --> 00:19:24,539 It's always challenging no matter the organization you're a part of. 330 00:19:24,869 --> 00:19:27,959 Everyone has competing needs and wants, and you're never going to be 331 00:19:27,959 --> 00:19:30,269 able to satisfy everyone's wants. 332 00:19:30,369 --> 00:19:35,284 But I think the key is understanding, zooming out and understanding what 333 00:19:35,284 --> 00:19:36,454 are the broader business goals. 334 00:19:36,454 --> 00:19:40,324 So I always like to walk in and say, okay, what is the business trying to achieve? 335 00:19:40,354 --> 00:19:45,494 What are the OKRs or KPIs that we are trying to achieve as an organization? 336 00:19:45,824 --> 00:19:47,804 And then building a roadmap that rolls into that. 337 00:19:47,834 --> 00:19:53,384 So I have found a lot of success with working with the C-Suite on using 338 00:19:53,384 --> 00:19:55,884 a weighted priority matrix where we 339 00:19:56,269 --> 00:19:59,719 we look at what are the key metrics that are critical for the 340 00:19:59,719 --> 00:20:01,309 business, but also for product. 341 00:20:01,369 --> 00:20:06,079 And so let's just take an example of, uh, most organizations are shifting away from 342 00:20:06,079 --> 00:20:09,859 grow, grow, grow at all costs, and instead are shifting towards profitability. 343 00:20:09,859 --> 00:20:14,109 How do we actually start to shift our thinking to still growing, but 344 00:20:14,379 --> 00:20:17,289 being reasonable with those growth metrics while becoming profitable? 345 00:20:17,349 --> 00:20:21,549 So for us, for example, and if nearing my end of my time at Huddle Up, 346 00:20:21,669 --> 00:20:24,129 we were really thinking about NRR. 347 00:20:24,129 --> 00:20:25,659 We were thinking at gross margins. 348 00:20:25,659 --> 00:20:29,079 So really starting to filter through our roadmap of what are 349 00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:31,779 going to drive those metrics. 350 00:20:32,079 --> 00:20:34,749 And again, getting alignment at the C-suite is critical. 351 00:20:35,029 --> 00:20:37,939 And then going through that exercise regularly as we're looking at our 352 00:20:37,939 --> 00:20:41,899 roadmap to determine what is the priority and everyone understands the why. 353 00:20:42,319 --> 00:20:45,709 I always say a roadmap is a living, breathing document. 354 00:20:45,949 --> 00:20:48,529 It is not something that you build at the beginning of the year and 355 00:20:48,529 --> 00:20:50,119 you revisit at the end of the year. 356 00:20:50,449 --> 00:20:52,099 Priorities very well may shift. 357 00:20:52,099 --> 00:20:54,319 Something happens in the market and acquisition. 358 00:20:54,679 --> 00:20:58,519 There's so many different factors that happen, right, that can really impact 359 00:20:58,519 --> 00:21:03,169 your roadmap, and so making sure that your roadmap rolls up into those broader 360 00:21:03,169 --> 00:21:08,259 business goals, but also is accessible for the entire organization is key. 361 00:21:08,669 --> 00:21:11,259 I've also found creating different versions of the road roadmap is 362 00:21:11,259 --> 00:21:15,048 important as well, you know, for a board level, the roadmap is going to 363 00:21:15,048 --> 00:21:16,938 be a bit broader, more zoomed out. 364 00:21:17,218 --> 00:21:21,388 But for an engineering and product team, you're gonna be much more detail-oriented. 365 00:21:21,648 --> 00:21:23,958 I always say as well, you wanna leave room for tech debt. 366 00:21:24,168 --> 00:21:28,128 There's unfortunately always technical debt, but you have to address. And so 367 00:21:28,128 --> 00:21:32,478 making sure that engineering is taken care of, that we have technical initiatives 368 00:21:32,478 --> 00:21:36,888 included on the roadmap, and that we show the why and the impact of those to 369 00:21:36,888 --> 00:21:40,578 the broader organization because most of the time the organization isn't as 370 00:21:40,578 --> 00:21:42,798 excited by those technical initiatives. 371 00:21:43,098 --> 00:21:47,148 And they're typically more excited by features or cool things 372 00:21:47,148 --> 00:21:48,318 that they've been waiting for. 373 00:21:48,448 --> 00:21:49,798 But it's really a balancing act. 374 00:21:49,975 --> 00:21:54,625 So that roadmap flexibility is really important, but it's also 375 00:21:54,685 --> 00:21:58,895 culturally a challenge for a lot of organizations where, people may see 376 00:21:58,895 --> 00:22:02,525 that as being you made a commitment, so you're changing the commitment. 377 00:22:03,365 --> 00:22:04,205 How do you balance that? 378 00:22:04,250 --> 00:22:07,825 How do you, How do you go and, and, and get your leadership team and get everyone 379 00:22:07,825 --> 00:22:10,495 else on board with the fact that, you know, like you're never gonna know less 380 00:22:10,495 --> 00:22:14,245 than you know right now and you just learn something so you've gotta make a change. 381 00:22:14,395 --> 00:22:15,265 Yeah, absolutely. 382 00:22:15,265 --> 00:22:17,685 I think again, transparency is key. 383 00:22:17,925 --> 00:22:22,905 I think also sharing the risks of not making the shift is important 384 00:22:23,145 --> 00:22:25,575 and the trade-offs, you're always going to have trade-offs. 385 00:22:25,575 --> 00:22:28,215 That's part of the development process, right? 386 00:22:28,395 --> 00:22:30,795 Whether you're developing a single feature, there's going to be trade-offs. 387 00:22:30,795 --> 00:22:33,435 So then that feature, or you're looking at the entire roadmap. 388 00:22:33,685 --> 00:22:37,395 And I think really sharing again context. 389 00:22:37,395 --> 00:22:41,485 The why, the metrics that you're driving towards is key if 390 00:22:41,505 --> 00:22:42,675 you're going to shift gears. 391 00:22:42,705 --> 00:22:45,915 And when I say flexibility, I'm not saying you should be shifting your roadmap every 392 00:22:45,915 --> 00:22:53,405 week or every month but if something shifts and you need to make a change. 393 00:22:53,755 --> 00:22:55,915 You need to have the flexibility to do so. 394 00:22:55,915 --> 00:22:58,945 And I think some of that is also just educating the leaders in 395 00:22:58,945 --> 00:23:02,875 the organization as to the why, holding office hours as well. 396 00:23:02,875 --> 00:23:06,175 I used to hold office hours where anyone could come and ask me questions 397 00:23:06,385 --> 00:23:09,535 about either the roadmap or the product and tech organization. 398 00:23:09,535 --> 00:23:13,165 I actually would get people who would come in and ask questions about why 399 00:23:13,165 --> 00:23:16,975 a feature wasn't wasn't happening or why that something was delayed. 400 00:23:16,975 --> 00:23:21,145 And it was really helpful to just have a conversation as two humans. 401 00:23:22,045 --> 00:23:23,515 Let's talk about product-led growth. 402 00:23:23,725 --> 00:23:29,266 What does that look like in, regulated, service-heavy environment like digital 403 00:23:29,266 --> 00:23:31,506 health where the MVPs are pretty big. 404 00:23:32,336 --> 00:23:33,056 Yeah, absolutely. 405 00:23:33,056 --> 00:23:36,966 So I think the first thing is, unlike in some other industries product-led 406 00:23:37,046 --> 00:23:40,976 growth, it doesn't mean growth without guardrails when you're working within 407 00:23:40,976 --> 00:23:42,476 digital health or healthcare, right? 408 00:23:42,476 --> 00:23:43,736 I think that's critical. 409 00:23:44,086 --> 00:23:48,136 But I think it's also thinking about letting the product prove value 410 00:23:48,376 --> 00:23:50,476 within the real-world use case. 411 00:23:50,681 --> 00:23:54,581 So unlike in some other industries where we hear about product-led 412 00:23:54,581 --> 00:23:58,571 growth or PLG all the time, you have to be really thoughtful. 413 00:23:58,571 --> 00:24:02,861 And when you're creating a product that's impacting clinical outcomes, 414 00:24:03,071 --> 00:24:07,101 so making sure that you're designing in a way that fits naturally into 415 00:24:07,101 --> 00:24:09,601 clinical workflows feels intuitive. 416 00:24:09,636 --> 00:24:12,546 And quite frankly, if you can create a delightful experience that's 417 00:24:12,546 --> 00:24:16,476 healthcare-oriented, you're likely to have organic growth start to happen. 418 00:24:16,686 --> 00:24:19,146 And I mean that from both a clinician perspective, but 419 00:24:19,146 --> 00:24:20,616 also a patient perspective. 420 00:24:20,616 --> 00:24:23,946 I think unfortunately, the norm when we go into our traditional 421 00:24:23,946 --> 00:24:27,666 healthcare settings is that we have these experiences in healthcare 422 00:24:27,666 --> 00:24:29,166 that really rub us the wrong way. 423 00:24:29,166 --> 00:24:31,116 We have a negative connotation around healthcare. 424 00:24:31,116 --> 00:24:35,436 So if you can create a digital experience that's a delight to use, it's easy to 425 00:24:35,436 --> 00:24:39,731 use, it's made your life easier, then you're likely to have people talk about 426 00:24:39,731 --> 00:24:41,051 and start to have that organic growth. 427 00:24:41,051 --> 00:24:44,651 So the product itself really becomes the driver of trust, 428 00:24:44,741 --> 00:24:46,571 engagement, and ultimately scale. 429 00:24:48,030 --> 00:24:50,710 And when you're pursuing something like that, how do you bring in, again, 430 00:24:50,710 --> 00:24:53,500 those, this is gonna be a theme, but those cross-functional voices, 431 00:24:53,550 --> 00:24:58,310 the clinicians, the customer success team, sales teams, into that process 432 00:24:58,360 --> 00:25:01,000 without essentially creating chaos. 433 00:25:02,010 --> 00:25:06,870 I always tell my product team members that cross-functional collaboration 434 00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:09,240 is key and core to our success, right? 435 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,360 Building that trust, making sure voices are heard, but that doesn't 436 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:14,250 mean saying yes to everything either. 437 00:25:14,620 --> 00:25:18,010 And so really bringing in the cross-functional team members 438 00:25:18,010 --> 00:25:22,700 in a structured, intentional way, I have found to be the key. 439 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,860 So making sure that you have an agenda and that you send out ahead of time 440 00:25:26,860 --> 00:25:31,840 explaining the goals of the meeting involving cross-functional team members 441 00:25:31,870 --> 00:25:36,400 in the discovery phase so early and often so they feel like they're heard, 442 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,710 they're participating as you're building. 443 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,490 And then I like to also use clinicians as we're building to really help 444 00:25:43,490 --> 00:25:47,210 us pressure test, right, to make sure that we're clinically sound 445 00:25:47,955 --> 00:25:49,905 as we're building and designing. 446 00:25:50,205 --> 00:25:53,625 We also often involve cross-functional team members in 447 00:25:53,625 --> 00:25:55,275 testing and validation processes. 448 00:25:55,275 --> 00:25:59,565 So as we're nearing the end to make sure that whatever we've built is 449 00:25:59,565 --> 00:26:01,605 going to work in the real world. 450 00:26:01,725 --> 00:26:05,625 But again, I think that the key here is that kind of structured intentional 451 00:26:05,625 --> 00:26:09,825 thinking so that when you're involving those team members, they know why 452 00:26:09,825 --> 00:26:13,635 you're involving them and what you're trying to gain out of those interactions 453 00:26:13,635 --> 00:26:17,685 because one thing that I always like to remind people is everyone's busy in an 454 00:26:17,685 --> 00:26:21,285 organization, especially in early stage and growth stage companies, everyone 455 00:26:21,285 --> 00:26:24,195 is busy and has competing priorities. 456 00:26:24,195 --> 00:26:25,185 It's not just product. 457 00:26:25,185 --> 00:26:26,595 It's not just engineering teams. 458 00:26:26,595 --> 00:26:30,285 And so making sure that it feels like you're respecting people's 459 00:26:30,285 --> 00:26:32,025 times and voices is really important. 460 00:26:33,121 --> 00:26:36,691 So as someone who took over a technology team coming from the 461 00:26:36,691 --> 00:26:41,192 product side, what did that teach you about that you, what did that teach 462 00:26:41,461 --> 00:26:45,931 you that you think product leaders and other organizations should know? 463 00:26:47,866 --> 00:26:52,796 Yeah, I think again, it's making sure that you can create the synergy and 464 00:26:52,796 --> 00:26:54,866 alignment between product and engineering. 465 00:26:54,866 --> 00:26:58,496 We always know that as being a product leader or product team member, 466 00:26:58,496 --> 00:27:02,306 that you need to work well with your technical counterparts, right? 467 00:27:02,606 --> 00:27:07,086 But really understanding how to work well with engineering 468 00:27:07,136 --> 00:27:09,446 teams or technical teams is key. 469 00:27:09,746 --> 00:27:15,266 And so what I would say is again, sharing context, creating shared 470 00:27:15,266 --> 00:27:21,566 goals, making data-driven decisions is really key to finding success as you're 471 00:27:21,776 --> 00:27:26,396 moving from just managing product to managing product and engineering teams 472 00:27:26,606 --> 00:27:30,746 and making sure you're sharing success across the organization as well as 473 00:27:31,006 --> 00:27:33,196 understanding mistakes or fAIlures. 474 00:27:33,196 --> 00:27:37,096 So as a team, as a unified team, you can all grow and reset. 475 00:27:38,124 --> 00:27:40,854 And for people who might be going the other way, I mean, taking on 476 00:27:40,854 --> 00:27:44,544 more of a product responsibility from a background that might be more 477 00:27:44,544 --> 00:27:48,269 on the engineering side, o r on the clinical side, what should they know? 478 00:27:48,269 --> 00:27:49,379 How do they need to reset? 479 00:27:50,102 --> 00:27:54,652 So I think again, that cross-functional collaboration is really, really 480 00:27:54,652 --> 00:27:58,112 important, especially if you're coming from an engineering background 481 00:27:58,112 --> 00:27:59,492 or even a clinical background. 482 00:27:59,492 --> 00:28:04,417 I think in products, Uh, team members, it's in our DNA I don't 483 00:28:04,417 --> 00:28:06,067 wanna work across the organization. 484 00:28:06,317 --> 00:28:10,497 But I think sometimes that's a challenge for those with other types of training. 485 00:28:10,737 --> 00:28:13,647 And so making sure that you can create transparency and build 486 00:28:13,647 --> 00:28:14,997 trust is really important. 487 00:28:15,207 --> 00:28:19,017 I think the other piece is making sure that you feel comfortable 488 00:28:19,017 --> 00:28:20,307 learning how to say no. 489 00:28:20,917 --> 00:28:24,307 Might be a little easier for sometimes a technical team member than it 490 00:28:24,307 --> 00:28:25,537 is for a clinical team member. 491 00:28:25,537 --> 00:28:30,822 But it's really important to be thoughtful around w hat you're committing to and 492 00:28:30,822 --> 00:28:33,822 making sure you're listening to feedback, but again, you're not just taking it at 493 00:28:33,822 --> 00:28:36,042 face value, so listening, but validating. 494 00:28:36,142 --> 00:28:38,857 Is saying no t he hardest part of the job? 495 00:28:40,477 --> 00:28:41,887 I think it's quite hard, yes. 496 00:28:41,887 --> 00:28:48,377 I think, uh, you wanna be gentle in those no's because you don't want to hurt 497 00:28:48,377 --> 00:28:50,837 morale and trust across the organization. 498 00:28:51,107 --> 00:28:54,647 You want your team members to understand, again, that why I keep saying that, 499 00:28:54,647 --> 00:28:59,432 but it's really important that when that you're not able to commit to 500 00:28:59,432 --> 00:29:02,702 something that another team might want or need, you can understand, 501 00:29:02,732 --> 00:29:04,622 you can share with them the why. 502 00:29:04,652 --> 00:29:06,242 Because this is the trade off. 503 00:29:06,422 --> 00:29:10,112 We see that across the organization this is going to have a bigger impact. 504 00:29:10,112 --> 00:29:11,612 And here's the data to show that. 505 00:29:11,942 --> 00:29:14,612 I really find that when you make data-driven decisions, 506 00:29:14,612 --> 00:29:17,222 it can be a combination of qualitative and quantitative data. 507 00:29:17,462 --> 00:29:18,812 People will start to understand. 508 00:29:18,992 --> 00:29:21,272 You just can't say no and not share the why. 509 00:29:21,537 --> 00:29:24,232 So I promised everyone we'd get back to talking about AI. 510 00:29:24,232 --> 00:29:24,962 So here we are. 511 00:29:25,608 --> 00:29:29,268 You mentioned building some AI support into clinician guidance, 512 00:29:29,388 --> 00:29:32,238 uh, especially as you were bringing family members more into the mix. 513 00:29:32,998 --> 00:29:37,648 Of course when clinicians hear AI, a lot of them think about risk 514 00:29:37,648 --> 00:29:41,878 and, maybe that's job risk or maybe it's legal and liability risk. 515 00:29:42,448 --> 00:29:47,158 So how do you approach integrating AI into the Huddle Up platform in particular? 516 00:29:48,038 --> 00:29:51,893 So I think for us, the key was augmenting not replacing. 517 00:29:52,193 --> 00:29:56,303 We needed to make sure that we were making it clear to our clinicians and just across 518 00:29:56,303 --> 00:30:00,443 the organization, because AI was scary for a lot of folks in our organization. 519 00:30:00,443 --> 00:30:04,163 It wasn't just the clinicians that we were approaching it as, how 520 00:30:04,163 --> 00:30:08,273 can we make our clinicians or our team members almost superhuman? 521 00:30:08,498 --> 00:30:11,903 Uh, and how can we augment their workflows and not replace? 522 00:30:11,903 --> 00:30:16,893 And so I think being able to share that we're trying to free up time 523 00:30:17,013 --> 00:30:20,523 so that clinicians can do what they do best, which is care for patients, 524 00:30:20,523 --> 00:30:25,343 support patients and lessen the burden of doing administrative work. 525 00:30:25,343 --> 00:30:28,463 And doing the same for our internal team members really 526 00:30:28,463 --> 00:30:30,533 helped us create that trust. 527 00:30:30,743 --> 00:30:35,113 And again, it's being transparent around what you are trying to do. 528 00:30:35,413 --> 00:30:38,743 Clinicians in general, I have found, can be wary of technology. 529 00:30:38,743 --> 00:30:42,943 So then when you introduce AI on top of that, which is just everywhere, 530 00:30:42,943 --> 00:30:46,153 everyone is hearing about it and reading about it, it can be 531 00:30:46,153 --> 00:30:49,333 tricky about to build that trust. 532 00:30:49,333 --> 00:30:54,643 So we involved clinical groups early and often, and were very honest about 533 00:30:54,643 --> 00:30:58,343 what we were trying to achieve and what we were not trying to do and 534 00:30:58,343 --> 00:31:02,363 listened to their pain points and what problems they wanted us to solve. 535 00:31:02,573 --> 00:31:05,503 And so we found that they helped become champions of the work. 536 00:31:06,383 --> 00:31:09,293 So what kind of AI tools did you implement? 537 00:31:10,591 --> 00:31:14,041 Low hanging fruit for us was how can we first personalize our experience? 538 00:31:14,311 --> 00:31:19,581 So one way to do that was, as I mentioned briefly content became a core piece of our 539 00:31:19,581 --> 00:31:25,591 offering where we were offering families and patients access to a resource library 540 00:31:25,591 --> 00:31:26,961 that was highly personalized to them. 541 00:31:26,961 --> 00:31:32,061 So we thought that was an easy way to start to dip our toes into AI. 542 00:31:32,331 --> 00:31:32,601 Right? 543 00:31:32,601 --> 00:31:34,431 It didn't involve clinicians at all. 544 00:31:34,621 --> 00:31:37,141 Although we were looking at clinical data for some of the personalizations, 545 00:31:37,561 --> 00:31:41,641 but it was not a scary, intimidating way to start to leverage AI. 546 00:31:42,031 --> 00:31:45,901 We then turned to get more predictive with it and start to begin to understand 547 00:31:46,211 --> 00:31:49,481 capacity and caseload, which was really core to our business model. 548 00:31:49,871 --> 00:31:55,704 So starting to understand when should we be discharging patients and anticipating 549 00:31:56,364 --> 00:31:57,984 when patients should be hitting goals. 550 00:31:57,984 --> 00:32:02,364 So that does start to touch more on our clinicians because we were 551 00:32:02,364 --> 00:32:05,814 finding that clinicians were hanging on to patients should just far too 552 00:32:05,814 --> 00:32:07,534 long than was clinically sound. 553 00:32:07,534 --> 00:32:11,144 And so we needed to start to anticipate what were our hiring needs and how do we 554 00:32:11,384 --> 00:32:15,854 better support our clinicians to say, Hey, this patient's been stagnant for a month 555 00:32:15,914 --> 00:32:17,684 it might be time to consider discharge. 556 00:32:17,914 --> 00:32:21,454 And so really enabling first our clinical managers and then starting 557 00:32:21,454 --> 00:32:23,224 to introduce that into the product. 558 00:32:23,584 --> 00:32:26,554 Those were kind of the core areas that we were using it. 559 00:32:26,754 --> 00:32:30,079 The other area was around automating documentation, which I think is 560 00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:31,699 becoming much more common, right? 561 00:32:31,699 --> 00:32:34,729 In terms of how can you automate these daily workflows? 562 00:32:34,789 --> 00:32:38,059 And we were exploring quite a bit there in terms of how can you automate 563 00:32:38,059 --> 00:32:41,579 scheduling and anything that they were repetitive tasks that was just 564 00:32:41,579 --> 00:32:42,654 taking time away from seeing patients. 565 00:32:44,327 --> 00:32:48,102 So one of, one of the things that sort of differentiates AI features 566 00:32:48,102 --> 00:32:52,187 from more traditional product feature development is that t he 567 00:32:52,187 --> 00:32:53,377 answers can be a little bit fuzzy. 568 00:32:53,512 --> 00:32:57,382 You don't, you get a close match, you get a confidence interval, you get 569 00:32:57,382 --> 00:33:00,592 a, you know, some texts that may not be quite the same each time through. 570 00:33:01,142 --> 00:33:06,692 So how do you adapt some of the product design and planning tools that, you 571 00:33:06,692 --> 00:33:11,872 know, we've all have had in our tool set for a long time, to work within that 572 00:33:11,872 --> 00:33:13,612 sort of greater degree of uncertainty? 573 00:33:14,107 --> 00:33:19,072 Yeah, I mean, I think the one thing is we when we were starting to explore AI, we 574 00:33:19,072 --> 00:33:24,442 had to be clear across the organization that timelines may be a little bit 575 00:33:24,442 --> 00:33:28,292 more fuzzy for us as well to your point, because we wanted to make sure 576 00:33:28,292 --> 00:33:29,732 that we are thoughtful in our rollout. 577 00:33:30,092 --> 00:33:32,822 Not that we aren't thoughtful when we're doing more traditional rollout, 578 00:33:33,032 --> 00:33:37,832 leveraging AI, but you know, really taking smaller audiences, doing the 579 00:33:37,832 --> 00:33:41,972 proper beta testing and making sure that we didn't have bias as well in our. 580 00:33:42,512 --> 00:33:43,142 Results. 581 00:33:43,462 --> 00:33:47,362 And so I think you've really gotta consider timelines. 582 00:33:47,362 --> 00:33:49,492 You've gotta consider your data set and you need to make sure you have 583 00:33:49,492 --> 00:33:55,042 the right team members on board who are confident as well in helping 584 00:33:55,072 --> 00:33:57,292 support these AI initiatives. 585 00:33:57,472 --> 00:34:01,312 That meant for us, we had to start thinking more about what our 586 00:34:01,372 --> 00:34:04,132 team looked like and was composed of, especially on the data and 587 00:34:04,132 --> 00:34:05,662 technical side of the organization. 588 00:34:06,637 --> 00:34:09,872 Yeah, so what did you need to find on the data side and on the technical side? 589 00:34:09,922 --> 00:34:11,362 What do those profiles look like? 590 00:34:12,037 --> 00:34:16,087 Yeah, I mean for us we needed someone with a stronger data science background. 591 00:34:16,267 --> 00:34:20,467 We had a data architect who was fantastic, but we needed someone who 592 00:34:20,587 --> 00:34:24,457 was comfortable working in a clinical environment we felt was important. 593 00:34:24,757 --> 00:34:27,397 And had a stronger just data science background. 594 00:34:27,617 --> 00:34:29,807 On the engineering side as well 595 00:34:30,017 --> 00:34:34,447 um, we had some hesitancy from some engineers initially around AI. 596 00:34:34,507 --> 00:34:38,797 We had others who were incredibly excited to leverage AI, right? 597 00:34:38,797 --> 00:34:40,837 And already were using it to help them code. 598 00:34:40,837 --> 00:34:45,297 So it just sort of varied in personality type, but really again, 599 00:34:45,297 --> 00:34:49,377 having someone who could be a strong counterpart to those on the data team. 600 00:34:49,467 --> 00:34:50,839 And actually that's, that's interesting. 601 00:34:50,864 --> 00:34:54,484 So you had, engineers who were, potentially hesitant. 602 00:34:55,354 --> 00:34:56,279 Why were they hesitating? 603 00:34:57,334 --> 00:35:01,414 I think that they felt nervous about the implications of AI in the 604 00:35:01,414 --> 00:35:03,814 product more than them using it. 605 00:35:03,814 --> 00:35:05,944 again, sort of what you were talking about, the risk of 606 00:35:05,944 --> 00:35:07,294 what if something goes wrong. 607 00:35:07,594 --> 00:35:11,974 I think that was part of the initial fear from some of our engineers, 608 00:35:11,974 --> 00:35:14,194 which was interesting 'cause I would've thought it would come more 609 00:35:14,194 --> 00:35:16,564 from the product side of things. 610 00:35:16,724 --> 00:35:18,464 But I think that was part of it. 611 00:35:18,464 --> 00:35:23,564 I also think just some hadn't used AI and so, right, if they had never leveraged 612 00:35:23,564 --> 00:35:30,319 AI in past roles, it was new for them as well and they felt uncomfortable with a 613 00:35:30,324 --> 00:35:32,304 new technology or what was new to them. 614 00:35:33,349 --> 00:35:33,459 Yeah. 615 00:35:33,676 --> 00:35:36,106 And with your other stakeholders, how did you think about the 616 00:35:36,136 --> 00:35:37,576 sort of the AI hype cycle? 617 00:35:37,676 --> 00:35:42,566 I've certainly been in board meetings where there's been a lot of demand for AI. 618 00:35:43,136 --> 00:35:47,656 Yeah, I've had some really interesting conversations recently about AI as I've 619 00:35:47,656 --> 00:35:51,496 been working with some other organizations as well, where it feels like everyone 620 00:35:51,586 --> 00:35:56,326 wants to implement AI right now, thinks they can shrink their teams and replace 621 00:35:56,326 --> 00:36:01,501 them, and I think it is a bit of a hype cycle, quite frankly, in that we had 622 00:36:01,501 --> 00:36:05,071 to really ground our team, and I think the way we did it was starting small. 623 00:36:05,486 --> 00:36:10,736 So saying, we know we have such great potential to leverage AI ML, but we 624 00:36:10,736 --> 00:36:12,656 a) need more data for some of it. 625 00:36:12,816 --> 00:36:18,246 But also we wanna start small and take smaller risks and kind of tiptoe 626 00:36:18,336 --> 00:36:21,546 in before we invest heavily in AI. 627 00:36:21,576 --> 00:36:25,766 Make sure we also feel confident with our strategy, can bring in the right 628 00:36:25,766 --> 00:36:28,436 team members and have proper investment. 629 00:36:28,436 --> 00:36:33,026 From that perspective, again, it was already a culture shift when we 630 00:36:33,326 --> 00:36:37,226 shifted from just being a teletherapy company to being tech enabled. 631 00:36:37,636 --> 00:36:41,266 And so this was another shift from a culture perspective. 632 00:36:41,386 --> 00:36:45,436 And as you mentioned earlier, I think people just get nervous that AI is going 633 00:36:45,436 --> 00:36:48,646 to create job insecurity and replace them. 634 00:36:50,096 --> 00:36:53,666 So anything on the AI front that you're really excited about now? 635 00:36:53,666 --> 00:36:56,066 Anything you've seen in the last couple of months that you know will 636 00:36:56,066 --> 00:36:59,046 definitely play a role for you in your, in your next, big project. 637 00:36:59,896 --> 00:37:04,126 I mean, I think just the ability to augment humans is incredibly exciting. 638 00:37:04,126 --> 00:37:07,306 So I think when I'm thinking about it from a digital health perspective, 639 00:37:07,606 --> 00:37:11,236 clinicians becoming superhuman, being able to surface the right data to them 640 00:37:11,236 --> 00:37:15,046 at the right time, insights that they would never have had when they're in with 641 00:37:15,046 --> 00:37:17,921 a patient I think is really compelling. 642 00:37:18,111 --> 00:37:23,006 Again, I think it can be transformational in terms of just driving better care 643 00:37:23,006 --> 00:37:26,636 outcomes, um, and creating these highly personalized experiences. 644 00:37:26,636 --> 00:37:30,566 I wouldn't say there's one specific technology that I'm really excited about. 645 00:37:30,696 --> 00:37:33,606 I'm a strong believer in that this is gonna augment humans and 646 00:37:33,606 --> 00:37:36,036 not fully replace our clinicians. 647 00:37:36,116 --> 00:37:40,196 And that it's going to be powerful for patients as well, because I'm hoping 648 00:37:40,196 --> 00:37:43,791 that they'll have better interactions with clinicians because of AI. 649 00:37:43,969 --> 00:37:47,149 So moving on to my other favorite topic, which is compliance. 650 00:37:47,419 --> 00:37:52,083 Uh, You've spent your career so far, in, in healthcare, that's highly regulated. 651 00:37:52,083 --> 00:37:53,913 It's HIPAA, it's compliance driven. 652 00:37:54,403 --> 00:37:58,273 I imagine with, with school districts and children, you have another whole 653 00:37:58,273 --> 00:38:01,583 layer of obligations on top of that. 654 00:38:01,633 --> 00:38:06,593 Um, so how did you bring, the really boring stuff that is nonetheless 655 00:38:06,773 --> 00:38:10,923 business critical, into the product roadmap and into the technology roadmap? 656 00:38:11,283 --> 00:38:14,928 Yeah, I mean, I think compliance is forward to healthcare 657 00:38:14,958 --> 00:38:16,038 or digital health, right? 658 00:38:16,048 --> 00:38:21,828 Definitely not the sexy, exciting part of the job, but critical. 659 00:38:21,858 --> 00:38:25,398 Of course you don't want to have be in the news because you weren't compliant. 660 00:38:25,668 --> 00:38:29,088 Critical to educate the organization as well about the importance of 661 00:38:29,088 --> 00:38:32,898 compliance and why we needed to dedicate part of our roadmap to 662 00:38:32,898 --> 00:38:34,398 ensuring that we were compliant. 663 00:38:34,658 --> 00:38:39,238 One core piece of that was embedding those regulatory or compliance 664 00:38:39,238 --> 00:38:42,388 considerations into the product development process from the beginning. 665 00:38:42,568 --> 00:38:46,678 So making sure that our team members, legal team members, compliance team 666 00:38:46,678 --> 00:38:51,028 member, team members, quite frankly, our security and IT team members as well, 667 00:38:51,028 --> 00:38:56,098 were involved early and often to ensure that we were embedding those pieces 668 00:38:56,098 --> 00:39:00,508 into the design process from the very beginning, and it wasn't an afterthought. 669 00:39:00,838 --> 00:39:03,898 And so while sometimes that can create challenges because it 670 00:39:03,898 --> 00:39:07,608 means you have to make compromises where you may not want to. 671 00:39:07,638 --> 00:39:11,208 It's better than having to roll back a feature and redo it. 672 00:39:11,268 --> 00:39:15,498 And so we really treated those requirements as a core part of 673 00:39:15,498 --> 00:39:17,088 our product development process. 674 00:39:17,338 --> 00:39:22,198 And just looped in the key stakeholders from the beginning and until the end, 675 00:39:22,198 --> 00:39:23,613 so they would've final sign off as well. 676 00:39:25,049 --> 00:39:28,679 So if you knew then what you know now, is there anything that you would 677 00:39:28,679 --> 00:39:32,749 further prioritize, even if it came at the cost of some feature momentum? 678 00:39:33,934 --> 00:39:37,474 Yeah, I mean, I think for us HIPAA compliance is pretty straightforward. 679 00:39:37,524 --> 00:39:39,804 If you work in healthcare, you know how to be HIPAA compliant. 680 00:39:39,804 --> 00:39:44,712 But I think for us, some of it was around, I would say working within 681 00:39:44,712 --> 00:39:46,692 school districts was a little bit tricky. 682 00:39:46,912 --> 00:39:50,332 There was some variability across regulations across 683 00:39:50,332 --> 00:39:51,532 states, which made it tricky. 684 00:39:51,587 --> 00:39:55,472 We, we worked nationwide and so that was a little bit harder at times. 685 00:39:55,522 --> 00:40:00,802 And I wish that we were more aware of some of those changing requirements earlier, 686 00:40:01,072 --> 00:40:02,542 um, and had a better way to track it. 687 00:40:02,632 --> 00:40:07,112 AI, I think actually will be a great tool to leverage here as well to help 688 00:40:07,112 --> 00:40:08,852 you from a compliance perspective. 689 00:40:09,042 --> 00:40:12,882 I think the other thing is making sure the org understands and most do, but the 690 00:40:12,882 --> 00:40:19,487 investment in cyber and making sure that you're really securing and minimizing any 691 00:40:19,487 --> 00:40:24,417 sort of cybersecurity risk in addition to just the healthcare regulatory risk. 692 00:40:26,259 --> 00:40:28,359 Okay, we're gonna move on to the lightning round. 693 00:40:28,479 --> 00:40:29,349 Quick questions. 694 00:40:29,399 --> 00:40:31,619 One sentence, two sentence answers, max. 695 00:40:32,069 --> 00:40:34,529 One product, tool or practice that you can't live without. 696 00:40:35,489 --> 00:40:38,159 One product tool's Maze that I can't live without. 697 00:40:38,159 --> 00:40:42,959 So because I've been in budget constrained environments, experimentation is key early 698 00:40:42,959 --> 00:40:47,369 and often, and I found Maze to be a really effective, relatively inexpensive way to 699 00:40:47,369 --> 00:40:49,109 get that user feedback and validation. 700 00:40:49,414 --> 00:40:51,754 Biggest misconception today about AI and health tech. 701 00:40:52,639 --> 00:40:54,649 AI is going to replace all clinicians. 702 00:40:55,159 --> 00:40:57,589 Uh, I don't think that is going to happen. 703 00:40:57,589 --> 00:40:59,719 As I mentioned earlier, AI is going to augment. 704 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,184 I don't think most of our clinicians will be replaced by AI. 705 00:41:04,103 --> 00:41:05,843 Underrated skill for product leaders. 706 00:41:06,863 --> 00:41:10,013 I think really building trust with cross-functional partners. 707 00:41:10,293 --> 00:41:13,413 It's the foundation for real collaboration and execution. 708 00:41:13,633 --> 00:41:16,393 And I think, uh, some junior product team members might 709 00:41:16,393 --> 00:41:17,713 underestimate the importance of that. 710 00:41:19,587 --> 00:41:23,017 Finish this sentence: g reat product strategy starts with... 711 00:41:23,917 --> 00:41:29,137 ...deep understanding of your users, their goals, pain points, and their why. 712 00:41:29,197 --> 00:41:32,721 And their lives and finally, what's one thing you wish more 713 00:41:32,721 --> 00:41:34,371 digital health startups understood? 714 00:41:36,081 --> 00:41:41,931 I think that balancing patients and clinician experience while driving 715 00:41:41,991 --> 00:41:44,451 business outcomes is not optional. 716 00:41:44,931 --> 00:41:48,351 So you can't neglect the mission, but you also can't scale 717 00:41:48,351 --> 00:41:49,881 without a sound business model. 718 00:41:50,121 --> 00:41:52,431 So making sure that you're being considered of both is 719 00:41:52,431 --> 00:41:55,341 really key to success in a healthcare startup environment. 720 00:41:55,651 --> 00:41:59,131 So you went through quite a lot of growth at Huddle Up, including a, uh, a series 721 00:41:59,131 --> 00:42:01,345 C round and a private equity investment. 722 00:42:01,975 --> 00:42:05,125 Just tell us a little bit about that evolution and some of the, maybe a 723 00:42:05,125 --> 00:42:08,575 few of the things you wish that you had known going into that process 724 00:42:08,575 --> 00:42:09,815 that would've made it, smoother. 725 00:42:10,620 --> 00:42:13,580 Yeah, I mean, I think when you're fundraising it's always an 726 00:42:13,580 --> 00:42:14,990 interesting moment in a company. 727 00:42:14,990 --> 00:42:19,220 It's exciting, you're excited to get additional investment to fund growth 728 00:42:19,220 --> 00:42:23,450 and scale, but it's also challenging because it can be distracting as 729 00:42:23,450 --> 00:42:26,330 you're managing to raise the funds. 730 00:42:26,450 --> 00:42:29,060 That's almost like a full-time job sometimes, especially 731 00:42:29,060 --> 00:42:30,170 as you're in diligence. 732 00:42:30,310 --> 00:42:33,700 But you still gotta keep going and execute your roadmap and make 733 00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:35,050 sure the business is running. 734 00:42:35,380 --> 00:42:38,470 So I think just understanding the time commitment and balancing 735 00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:39,730 act is really important. 736 00:42:39,970 --> 00:42:43,550 As part of our process, we had a technical diligence, which is quite normal where 737 00:42:43,550 --> 00:42:47,400 they really dug into our product to make sure that it was both sound from 738 00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,220 an architecture perspective, but that we were doing what we were actually 739 00:42:50,220 --> 00:42:54,250 saying that we were doing and weren't just having it down on paper, right? 740 00:42:54,250 --> 00:42:55,450 Or showing them in Figma. 741 00:42:55,700 --> 00:42:59,720 And so making sure that you have key and core documentation 742 00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:01,760 ahead of time is, is key. 743 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,550 I think again, AI can likely help you there. 744 00:43:04,550 --> 00:43:08,890 It's never been easier than now to document but just making sure that you 745 00:43:08,890 --> 00:43:10,780 don't get behind on the documentation. 746 00:43:10,780 --> 00:43:13,570 You don't underestimate the time it's going to take to fundraise. 747 00:43:13,575 --> 00:43:19,957 So of course, you know the funny story about that fundraising is that Newfire 748 00:43:19,957 --> 00:43:25,367 Advisory actually had to recuse ourselves from doing the due diligence on DotCom 749 00:43:25,387 --> 00:43:29,217 Therapy Huddle Up, uh, because we were working with the company on engineering. 750 00:43:29,692 --> 00:43:30,682 That is correct. 751 00:43:30,712 --> 00:43:31,882 That is absolutely correct. 752 00:43:31,882 --> 00:43:37,602 I had a funny phone call with Steven around it but it all ended up working out. 753 00:43:37,602 --> 00:43:39,467 We were able to close the round and get it done. 754 00:43:41,204 --> 00:43:43,004 So Alexis, thank you so much for joining us. 755 00:43:43,004 --> 00:43:44,444 This was a great conversation. 756 00:43:44,494 --> 00:43:49,014 Before we close out what's one piece of advice you'd offer to product 757 00:43:49,014 --> 00:43:53,894 leaders who are trying to navigate today's digital health landscape? 758 00:43:55,084 --> 00:43:58,174 Yeah, I would say digital health is an interesting moment in that, 759 00:43:58,174 --> 00:44:02,254 again, we're shifting from access to making sure that you're really 760 00:44:02,254 --> 00:44:06,274 able to differentiate yourself in the market and drive core clinical 761 00:44:06,274 --> 00:44:10,384 outcomes while navigating the changing landscape of AI really taking over. 762 00:44:10,594 --> 00:44:14,524 So making sure that you feel comfortable navigating the change, 763 00:44:14,524 --> 00:44:20,104 you're un, you're okay with ambiguity and that you're still going back to those core 764 00:44:20,244 --> 00:44:24,834 product principles of making data-driven decisions, working cross-functionally 765 00:44:24,834 --> 00:44:29,634 and understanding your user and the value that you can create for them 766 00:44:29,634 --> 00:44:34,534 is really key as we navigate some of these kind of uncertain changing times. 767 00:44:34,828 --> 00:44:37,978 Alexis, thank you again for joining us on the podcast today. 768 00:44:38,228 --> 00:44:41,768 It's been a great conversation, and again, I always love being able to tie 769 00:44:42,128 --> 00:44:46,928 things back to very practical insights that hopefully will be very useful for, 770 00:44:47,328 --> 00:44:50,898 other product leaders and other technology leaders who are listening to us. 771 00:44:50,898 --> 00:44:52,458 So thanks so much for joining us. 772 00:44:53,073 --> 00:44:53,943 Thanks all for having me. 773 00:44:53,943 --> 00:44:54,933 It's been a true pleasure. 774 00:44:56,148 --> 00:45:01,014 So to our listeners, I hope today's conversation sparks some new ideas how 775 00:45:01,014 --> 00:45:04,624 you build products that matter, how you stay competitive even when the market 776 00:45:04,624 --> 00:45:10,931 gets a little bit crowded and how to manage some clarity into organizations 777 00:45:10,931 --> 00:45:12,251 that are trying to move quickly. 778 00:45:15,701 --> 00:45:19,511 So thanks for joining us on Hard Problems, Smart Solutions, the Newfire Podcast. 779 00:45:19,901 --> 00:45:20,666 Until next time.