Welcome to Transformative Principle.
This is Jethro Jones.
I'm pulling some old stuff out of the vault for you today.
Stuff that is still relevant, even though I recorded it a while ago for the Transformative Leadership Summit.
Were you a listener when I did those?
'cause they were pretty awesome.
So today's episode is from that vault.
I hope you enjoy it.
I haven't released these publicly and.
Listening to them.
Again, I cannot believe how relevant they are.
So good stuff, and I hope you enjoy it.
Thanks so much for listening to Transformative Principle.
All right.
I am so excited to have, um, Brad Gustafson on the, uh, transformative Leadership Summit.
This is so exciting.
I have long been a fan of Brad.
He's the principal of Greenwood Elementary and wida.
Minnesota and is an awesome, awesome guy, and also the co-author of the personalized pd. Book Flipping Profe Your Professional Development and the host of, I think, seven or eight podcasts at this point.
I can't keep track, but the latest one is The Unearthed Podcast, which is a great podcast where they go a little bit deeper, put some stakes in the ground that he co-hosts with Ben Galpin.
So really great stuff.
And Brad, thank you so much for being a part of the summit.
Hey, my pleasure.
We try to do all those podcasts, Jethro, and we add up all our mini audience sizes just to catch up to your Transformative Principal audience.
So that's the method behind the madness or, yeah.
Good one.
I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
I, I am in awe of your prowess all the time.
Oh.
So, um, we're gonna talk today about innovation and how to be an innovative leader in your school.
And, um, one of the things that, uh, we see with principals is that oftentimes they have great ideas of how they can change education and for whatever reason, they're not doing it or are afraid to do it or not sure how to do it.
And Brad is really a leader in.
Figuring out how to push against the status quo and get things to actually happen.
So, Brad, talk a little bit about innovation and how to get that going in the place, wherever you are, regardless of circumstances.
Sure.
I think the biggest thing, Jethro, is to identify the why.
So if we, if a, if a principal or teacher leader or superintendent doesn't have their why down and they're not on solid ground, there.
I don't, I really don't think the how matters, or at least it won't be sustainable or people, it won't pass the sniff test.
So I'll, I'll talk a little bit about my why and then your why might be different than my why.
And that's okay as long as you're passionate about it and it fits your school context.
But my why is we really want kids to be running to our school and be really excited to learn in a relevant, connected manner.
Okay?
Because.
Personally, we don't think there should be a huge disconnect between the outside world and innovative, um, tools and communication, um, opportunities that kids have available to them outside of school.
The school, uh, as George Curl says, shouldn't it be leading the way, uh, if we truly are learning institutions?
Shouldn't we be, um, kind of a lighthouse for innovation instead of what, what I've noticed happens in education is we might adapt something that has been in existence five or 10 years, um, in other sectors, and then we kind of call it innovative in education and it just seems completely backwards.
So my why.
And that's the reason why I feel comfortable talking about the how, which we'll get to the why is that we want kids to have a really relevant, connected education.
They should love school and it really should prepare them not only to to thrive today and do really neat things and make a difference, but it should set them up for success and to be really whatever they want to be and to invent whatever they want to invent.
Um, down the road.
So in a nutshell, that's my why.
Why do you care about it?
Well, for me, it's really about making sure that kids are able to access.
The the best that we have to offer.
And so for me, the reason why I push myself, why I do my podcast, why I am doing the summit, is to make sure that I am at the top of my game every single day so that my kids have someone who's at the top of his game ready to lead them in whatever way they need me to go.
And so.
For me, that means being aware of what's out there, being in tune with what possibilities there are, and then making sure that I'm bringing those things into the school and empowering my teachers to do that as well so that the things they find they can start implementing as well.
And it's not just me being the only one who's driving that, you know?
Mm-hmm.
So how do we determine our why if, if we can't speak about it clearly yet?
What are your ideas for that?
I think just, um, articulating what's really important to you, what drives you, and, and for some people, um, racial equity might be a motivating driving force and, and I would argue it should be for all of us.
For some people it might be.
Helping all kids to read.
And I would argue that that's really important.
And, and for some it might be thinking mathematically and for others it might be the arts.
But I think to be a a, a relevant, innovative educator, we really have to focus on what our kids need in this digitally connected age.
I think it's all of those things we're, here's kind of a, something that I. Um, said for a couple years now, if, if we limit student opportunity based on what we refuse to learn, we're selling our kids short.
So I know people who are amazing literacy leaders and I learn from them, and that's super important.
But if they just hang their hat on that at the expense of, um, oh, just technology, for example.
Um, teaching kids digital leadership.
That's not enough.
We have to give kids both.
So I'm gonna argue today and, and hopefully develop some actionable steps along with you on how to give kids both.
So we'll use the word and a lot.
It shouldn't be best practice or innovation.
I think it should be best practice.
And innovation.
Yeah, absolutely.
And by the same token, we can't be all about digital leadership and leave literacy behind because literacy is still important and we need to find a way to combine all of those together.
So it very much is an And So let's talk a little bit about some of those action steps to get people.
To that point of being innovative.
Now, one of the concerns before we even get there is if it's not research based, then we shouldn't be doing it in schools.
And how do you answer that question of we should only be doing things that are research based.
And that really, I think, turns off the faucet of innovation.
Um, if you're only doing things that other people have tried, if you're not willing to try something new, then you know, how are you ever gonna be innovative?
Right.
So a lot of the research that is popularly, I'm making up words here.
How's that for innovative?
A lot of that's super innovative.
Uh, you, uh, a lot of the research that cited Jethro was conducted in a different time.
Okay.
And it served our kids well in our schools well, for a really long time.
And, and parts of it tenants are probably still true.
We are in a completely different world than we were a decade ago.
And certainly there is, there is new and emerging research to support a lot, a lot of what, um, we're gonna talk about today.
So one of the things, I just completed a dissertation a year or two ago, and it was on innovative professional development in a nutshell.
And there, um, one of the key findings was.
Connected leadership fuels innovation on a campus.
So there is, I would argue there is research for a connected pedagogy, and certainly other people are gonna have to build upon that because to have a good research study, you want to have some, some focus.
And I did, I know Kathy Melton has done research on this.
Tony Sunan has done research on this, so.
For someone to say there's no research to justify the inclusion of social media in the educational landscape.
I would say, well, I think there is research 'cause I've done some and so have some of my friends.
So the other part of that is doing action research ourself, which is an appropriate way for us as educators to.
Implement a new strategy in our school or classroom and then see what the effect is and see if that was a worthwhile endeavor or not.
And a lot of people think that that is not acceptable for just a normal teacher to do, but the reality is, is we all know it is, and we all do it every single day.
So how, how do we start being innovative, um, in our schools when there might be some pushback or resistance from the status quo?
Well, I would argue that if we are being innovative, there should be pushback, right?
If, if it's a, if it's smooth sailing and no one has questions, we're probably not stretching ourselves or doing what our kids really need us to be doing.
Part of me would ask Jethro, before we, before we get to the how, and I know you're really driving to that, but.
I would ask, how's it working?
Just sticking with, with decades old research and ignoring some of the, the modern day advances in communication and technology.
I've seen kids, and these are children of principals.
I've seen some of their high school Twitter accounts, and I guarantee you it will cost some of these kids jobs by what they're posting.
And I would ask, how's that working for us as, as school leaders?
Are we okay with that?
I'm not okay with that.
I want my kids.
Um, to just be enveloped by caring adults, not only at our home, but in their school who teach and lead with a relevant connected pedagogy, because that's how they're gonna learn starting in kindergarten, what's okay.
Um, how to show kindness face to face and, and then broader.
Beyond in a global sense.
So I, I think that with some of the kids who are sharing how they're sharing online now in high school, had they been in our school as a kindergartner and gone up through the system and, and in your school, I'm assuming, I think they would, would have been in a much better spot.
So it's never too late to get it right.
And that's what we're trying to do right now.
So now you're, now you're ask me the, the real question here.
I get a little bit passionate about this stuff.
Yeah.
Well, and the, the follow up question I have to, that statement though is, yeah, what if I, I don't know how to use these tools and I'm not connected and I don't really want to be connected because I'm so afraid of it.
How do I get connected when I've got all those fears pushing me away from it?
Yep.
So, so one of the things, again, I think it probably goes back to the why.
So what, what are your core principles as a leader?
And I'm guessing you ultimately want kids to, to be healthy.
To be safe and to learn and achieve at a really high level.
And I would argue, and this is a huge part of the innovative thinking and, and the actual how.
You've gotta break down the walls around your campus a little bit, because the world is really connected.
And even if you don't know how to do it, you've gotta, you've gotta take the first step.
You've gotta ask questions because our kids can learn and be more innovative and get more done.
If we get out of their way, really, um, if we connect them to other people.
So how do you do that?
I mean, just by tuning into you, I guarantee if someone tweeted you or called or boxed you with a question, you would help walk them through that.
I would do the same thing.
Um.
Part of me Jethro, and let me know what you think about this.
It almost is an excuse in this day and age to say, I don't know how to connect.
Because we can ask, there are, whether you're Googling, I mean, you don't even have to talk to a person.
You can say, how do I get connected as an educator?
And I guarantee you're gonna get results.
The question I would have is, is the will there, do you, how serious are you about this?
A absolutely.
And the, the, you talked about core principles and if you, um, go back and listen in the earlier.
Uh, guest on the summit.
What is Mary McMahon who talks about how to establish your core principles, your core values as a principal, and how do you use those to guide the decision making in your school?
So, um, if you sign up for the all access pass and you can get back and watch that again, that would be very worth it, because that helps define this why that we're talking about right now.
And as some of your core values are to be a role model for your students.
Um, and to be a good example for them, then it's incumbent on you to get connected and show them how to interact in that space in an appropriate way.
And what Brad said is absolutely right.
If you reach out to me, um, I will definitely help you because I get excited about helping people join in on these things that we're doing.
So it's, it's very powerful.
Um, are, are we ready to get to the how now, Brad?
Let's do it.
Okay.
Let me, let me, let me fasten my seatbelt.
Okay.
I'm good.
Okay, good.
Now you're fastened in.
How do we become innovative?
It seems really hard.
Yep.
This will sound really simple, but it, it just proves that anyone can do it.
We just need to really focus in on the needs of the learner.
Okay.
And now I'm gonna def fluff that.
All right.
So if it's relevant to kids outside of school.
Be innovative and have it be relevant inside a school.
One way, and this sounds like cliche, I'm, I'm gonna say it and then we'll dissect it a little bit, but amplifying student voice, giving kids ownership over their learning when they're playing at home and, and exploring and being curious.
They're doing a lot of learning and we need to recognize that.
What if school looked more like that?
I think kids could learn at a really high level, whether it's a stem task, engineering, makerspace stuff doesn't matter.
But if we're focused in on their interests and passions and to some extent following their lead and, and again, getting out of their way.
That's innovative.
Uh, sadly enough, that's innovative.
It's a completely different paradigm that's student-centric, and you can still do that teaching the standards, but we're just removing barriers, uh, to our own thinking and to what we're offering kids.
So, for example, instead of giving them one of these as an assignment.
What if we had the, the learning target and the standard and then offered, you know, how do you want to show your learning?
You know, who do you want to connect with?
Who do you wanna learn from to get there?
Then kids can come up with whether it's a, a campaign, uh, a blog, a podcast like this.
I mean, kids can and should be doing this type of stuff.
We just need to follow their passions.
Our kids have it in them.
They have the answer to this.
We just need to get over our own expertness.
Yeah.
And, and that's key.
Get over our own expertness.
I like that.
But is that scalable, Brad?
If, if every kid out there is going out and asking everybody else, um, is that a scalable model?
Because how can I keep track of all that as a teacher or let alone as a principal for my teachers doing personalized PD for themselves?
Yep.
So one, one quick how to would be try something new, learn something new, try something new.
And I'll just give you a couple, couple examples.
One of the reasons I got into podcasting and blogging was I wanted to be an instructional leader in my school.
And if I'm not in the mix, how on earth am I gonna support teachers who are interested in doing that, or teachers who are interested in having our kids do that, which is the ultimate goal.
So by me starting one thing new.
It helped me become, um, much more knowledgeable in podcasting was one of the first things I got into so I could support our kids.
And now, um, I'm not saying it's because of me, but I'm at least able to support it.
It's rampant throughout our campus.
Kids are doing amazing things in podcasting and I can actually help problem solve and push the thinking deeper instead of trying to shy away or pretend that I know, um, something about.
Um, podcasting when I don't, the reality is I do because I committed to it.
So just by trying one thing different.
When you talk about scalable, Jethro.
J Okay.
Scalable can be a really bad thing too when you think about it.
Just because I can put a worksheet on a copier and scale it and, and create 300 copies and have a whole grade level or two have a, a math activity, I'm not sure that's best for kids.
Um, so what is scalable?
Our building relationships.
That's really scalable.
Okay.
We do it.
Teachers are amazing at this, so gifted.
Um, that's all we're really asking them to do, so that as we're.
Um, generating work and giving kids more voice.
We, we, we can ask better questions and just feed off that.
So some of this stuff is so basic, it's more of just a mindset thing.
You're just looking at things slightly different.
Yeah.
And, and one of my, um, the complaints that I hear often is.
Uh, how do I keep kids accountable and keep track of all that learning if they're going in a hundred different directions As a teacher, I've got too many kids in my class, uh, at the middle and high school level.
I've got too many kids in my classes.
How do I keep track of all that learning if, if they're all over the place?
Yeah, so it reminds me of just classic differentiation.
You don't have to have it be, you know, 5,000 different directions.
You know, 26 kids all having 50 billion open-end choices.
You could just give 'em a few choices, but just don't limit them within the walls of your school.
So, for example, um, you could as a product, so this is again, differentiation.
Have them, you know, you could create a collaborative podcast with someone in our.
Class school or outside our walls.
And that'd be one way to break down a mathematical concept instead of doing 30 problems on a worksheet.
And I'm not trying to per pick on worksheets, but I am trying to give people how to, okay, if we can live off this for, for a little bit, the innovation will really start to flow.
Um, so I think in a nutshell, that's it.
It doesn't have to be a zillion different options.
Just start small but start, do something different.
Because when you do things different, you start to think different.
Yeah, absolutely.
So you've given us two.
Hows so far?
Number one, if it's relevant outside of school, bringing it in school.
Make it relevant there.
Number two is try something new as a leader.
What's a third?
How to be innovative.
Sure.
Um, I wanna go back to the relevance one.
Another litmus test for that is if we're doing things in school and we ask the converse and we say, how relevant is this activity or type of learning outside of school?
For example, would a kid gravitate towards this outside of school?
If the answer's no, I think we owe it to ourselves and our kids to ask why.
Could we make it more relevant?
Should it be relevant, um, before we just openly accept it?
I, I, I, I, I don't feel like I know Innova innovation is scrutinized way beyond what status quo and just things that we've done for decades is we, we accept these things as common practice and anything new or different, we try to introduce, we either pile it on, but we never get rid of the things that maybe are impediments to true.
Innovation.
So I think we need to scrutinize a little bit more how relevant is what we're asking our kids to do.
And just because it's somebody's baby doesn't mean it still has to happen.
We have to make tough choices.
So for a third, A third, how, this is a really important one that I learned the hard way.
You never can forget.
Best practice.
So we, I always, the analogy I use is there's uh, two tracks in education.
You have best practice and then you have innovation and it's not either or.
We wanna find the space in the middle where the, the tracks converge.
So when you are trying to be innovative.
You cannot dismiss, diminish, uh, diminish or forget about the really great work that's been done for a really long time because everyone has a different entry point.
You have your early adapters, you have people who are just strapped for family time and not enough time.
We have to, we have to make it safe and accessible to everyone.
So here's how I, I try to keep those two tracks in mind.
I don't mandate.
Innovation.
Um, we have lots of different entry points.
We realize there's a continuum when we talk about maker spaces, for example, some people wonder, you know, is there a standard or a learning target for every single maker space you have, or lesson?
And the answer is no.
There's a continuum, and in some classes it's complete open-ended exploration and maybe it's part of snack time or recess or their morning routine.
And, and I'm okay with that because we're in the mix as learners and then we're learning alongside kids.
They're loving being here and we get a lot out of 'em the rest of the day.
Um, and, and during makerspace time, um, for others, there are these challenge cards, and that's kind of middle of the road.
Uh, it's guided inquiry, um, facilitated for others.
It's really standards based, so not mandating innovation.
And modeling it instead of mandating it is probably my other, my third.
How,
so you, you've given some really good ideas here.
When you, when you talk about not mandating innovation and recognizing a continuum, how do you.
How do you find that right balance for different people?
Um, what kind of conversations need to happen for people to feel safe to start venturing out so that you're pushing people to, to their, not, I don't wanna say pushing people to their limits, but pushing them a little bit outside their comfort zone.
So they're stretching, but not so much that you're, you know, putting a great tax on 'em.
Yep.
It's a little like passion-based leadership.
So I would try to get to know a teacher and what he or she is really passionate about, so as I become aware of things that might support their passion, they're natural, naturally gonna be more inclined to try it out because it was a custom fit for them.
Instead of telling everyone, you know what, we are a genius hour school.
Everyone's doing genius hour or 20% time, or, we're a makerspace school now.
Do we have those things?
Yes.
Are they more used by some teachers and grade levels than others?
Yes, and I think I'm okay with that because everyone is very passionate about making a difference for kids.
It just looks differently for each person.
The thing that we can never underestimate is the importance of modeling.
So instead of me trying to delegate innovation or this way of thinking, I do it all the time.
Okay?
So I really care about best practice and learning at a high level, and.
I care about innovation and giving our kids opportunities that we might not be aware of, whether that's them creating with a 3D printer and me just learning.
Um.
Um, just having, having the things here that support our why.
So it's not necessarily about having the 3D printer, but it's about having opportunities for our kids that support their why, and then me learning with them.
Sometimes I'll just go into a class or I'll talk to a teacher ahead of time and say, you know, we have this opportunity here.
Any interest in co-teaching or team teaching or doing something together?
Um, and then we'll do that.
Or sometimes I work with small groups of kids and do podcasting or like, what doesn't matter.
Lego drones.
Um, I'm looking over at my table like 3D printing pens.
It doesn't matter.
Here's a principle.
Um, or I suppose any educator has a kid that they're trying to reach that struggles, whether it's behaviorally tough, tough life at home, it doesn't matter.
Traditionally, we might have conversations with them, we might play a board game.
Um, just spending time together is really valuable.
But what if that time was in an area where the student was really passionate about, and a lot of kids are passionate about technology.
So I've worked with kids on Lego drones that I have no clue how to put together a build.
But we learned together.
We have a video game.
I keep looking over here 'cause that's where I have some stuff, Jethro.
But we have, uh, blocks, souls.
Have you heard of Blocks?
Souls?
Yeah.
From you.
Okay.
But tell us where they are.
So may it, it's make your own video game literally with kind of wooden building blocks and then there's an app and you scan it.
None of these things are things that I know how to do and that's not even the point.
I know how to learn.
I know how to relate to kids.
I know how to talk to them.
So sometimes we'll sit down together and sometimes it's a series of weeks or months.
We developed such a close relationship.
I'm learning, I'm modeling innovation.
We're able to deploy these things, teach they've been field tested in a sense because teachers are seeing the difference that those little things ha have made for their kids.
So, um, I think as principals, if we see ourselves as, as part of the effort, instead of, um, you know, leading or mandating the effort, it completely changes the vibe and people's stance on innovation.
Like, he's not gonna do this to me.
He's gonna support me in an area I'm interested in, and I'm gonna be pushed because it's important to kids, because people understand the why.
Yeah.
And the kids are also going to be still learning.
So it's not like, you know, when we take that approach of supporting kids, like Chris Weger talks about in another one of these interviews about strengths-based leadership for students.
And when we spend that time with them, sometimes the.
Perception may be that we are just hanging out with the naughty kids and they get to go to the principal's office and have a fun time.
But what you're doing is saying, well, let's learn something together and struggle through something together.
And that kid is still learning, still getting valuable skills, but you're also building that relationship that will allow you to help move them forward more in the future.
I love that approach, Brad.
That is awesome.
Thank you.
Yeah.
You know, the, the part that's hard to keep in mind because we can't immediately measure it, but when we're fostering the, um, some people call it grit, but just critical thinking and staying at it, and perseverance and true failure.
'cause we do, we fail so much around here and I fail more than anyone, but we see our kids failing and sticking with it and collaborating to get through it.
I know, and we know as educators that makes a difference.
Even on one of these paper pencil tests later in the year, it has to make a difference because their stamina and their attention, and they just, they have this confidence that's been developed because they've been given real work that matters by real educators who care about them in the short and long term.
Um, it's hard to quantify that right away.
We've seen kindergartners, Jethro do things that.
Probably a lot of middle schoolers wish they could be doing.
And these are kindergartners just creating engineering, doing amazing things.
And it's just because of people having this mindset that we don't wanna hold back opportunities for our kids.
We're gonna help them te uh, understand core learning concepts, but it's gonna be done in a relevant way that they're pretty jacked about doing.
Yeah.
Earlier this year at the Worldwide Developers Conference for Apple, they uh.
They did the little keynote and they said the youngest person that was in attendance at that developer's conference was nine years old.
Nine Brad.
Isn't that insane?
I mean, that's a little third grader who is learning how to really make an impact in the world and design something.
And bring to life something that she is creating.
I mean, that's incredible.
And your comment about kindergartners doing things that middle schoolers wish they could be doing that is so true.
And doing things that adults wish they could be doing.
Mm-hmm.
And um, so you've given us three really good things so far.
Relevance, try something new and model innovation.
What's a fourth?
How to be innovative.
Sure.
Uh, so it goes without saying that absent an amazing teacher, um, the, the tools are nothing.
They really are nothing.
The teacher makes a difference and I will never argue that.
At the same time, we have to get over our insecurities a little bit and recognize that the tools do matter.
Okay, so, so.
An innovative learning experience facilitated by a, a incredible teacher along with a tool that's very powerful and that can transform, um, how we think about learning and communication.
That is what I call amplified learning, and that's really what, where we want to get to.
So, um, let me try to give you an example of that.
We, we all have, uh.
Like iPads, uh, Chromebooks, doesn't matter what Surface Books, if we use these just for, uh, having kids, you know, emailing one another or creating, you know, presentations, podcasts.
I think that's cool.
But we're selling them short and good teachers know this.
Uh, transformational teachers, innovative teachers and principals know that the power of, of this and the power of the device that you and I are connecting on is the fact that we can have this relationship and learn and share and take our learning further than we would ever believe to an audience that that really matters.
So I would say, um, looking at this device a little bit differently, um, instead of the apps and the the rote practice and memorization, this should be like a tool where kids are creating and connecting with one another.
F as facilitated by a good, uh, educator when we do that.
Um, innovation doesn't have to be an answer, a preconceived notion in our head, our kids will be the innovators and that's what it's all about.
Yeah, absolutely.
So you've given us some great, um.
Ideas here.
Uh, and that idea of the tools do matter with an incredible teacher, I think is so incredibly vital for us to remember and pay attention to.
And we have teachers because they are masters at helping kids learn things and we want to encourage and foster that and we want them.
As you said earlier, to let go of their own expertness and recognize that they can be a facilitator of that learning.
Um, any closing thoughts about, uh, innovation that you didn't get a say that you wanna make sure you get a throw in there?
Sure.
I, well, some people say, or they worry or joke, you know, technology will never replace teachers and, and I agree with that.
Um, but imagine, I always use a firefighter analogy.
Could a firefighter do the work that he or she needed to do without the proper training and, and hose, for that matter, the basic equipment.
I mean, you gotta, you gotta have both a well-trained firefighter and the right equipment.
That's kind of how I look at education.
You've gotta have really highly trained and supported principals, teachers, and, and other leaders, and you also have to have tools that are relevant to kids and educators today.
So that's kind of my big deal.
If some of this sounds.
Um, easy or, or, or, or, or, uh, like ideas that it really is a lot of ideas.
It, it's not, you know, I can't tell you go buy a 3D printer.
Go buy some drones.
Go buy some droids.
That's really not innovation to me.
It's being so learner centric and in tune with what kids need and care about today and tomorrow, that the tools will actually follow.
It is more about how we look at these things and these opportunities, and that we really get outta the way and just are willing to serve as learners.
Awesome, thank you.
If those of you who are watching right now want to, um, hear Brad talk about this again, um, and connect with others who are doing this, sign up for the All Access pass, um, at transformative leadership summit.com and you'll be able to have, um, go back, re-listen to this, share it with your faculty, and do some amazing things at your school.
Uh, you can follow Brad on Twitter at, uh, Gustafson Brad, is that correct?
A great pronunciation too.
Thank you.
All right.
Thank you.
I, I try to do, you do your Honor there.
So, Brad, thank you so much and, uh, it's been an honor talking to you as always.
Thanks, Jethro.