1 00:00:00,794 --> 00:00:03,075 Welcome to the WSAVA podcast. 2 00:00:03,645 --> 00:00:07,665 This episode asks what it really means to create healthy dog and cat breeds, 3 00:00:08,084 --> 00:00:12,375 balancing tradition, science and responsibility to future generations. 4 00:00:13,274 --> 00:00:17,025 As you listen, think about how you advise a breeder aiming to make 5 00:00:17,025 --> 00:00:18,615 better choices for their animals. 6 00:00:19,425 --> 00:00:24,115 Our host, Yaiza Gomez Mejias speaks first with Helle Friis Proschowsky 7 00:00:24,135 --> 00:00:25,675 and later with Lucy Hoile. 8 00:00:25,695 --> 00:00:26,295 Let's begin. 9 00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:35,010 So in our email exchange, prior to this recording, you mentioned that 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,570 the article you've recently co-wrote and published, A new future for dog 11 00:00:39,570 --> 00:00:42,720 breeding, is a horizon topic paper. 12 00:00:43,050 --> 00:00:47,070 Could you explain what a horizon paper is and share some 13 00:00:47,070 --> 00:00:47,985 key messages in the article? 14 00:00:49,260 --> 00:00:54,000 It was a paper that I wrote together with colleagues from my institution in Denmark, 15 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,450 but also people from abroad like Dan O'Neill and James Serpell, Brenda Bonnett 16 00:00:58,470 --> 00:01:03,420 and Peter Sandøe, who is the leader of this center for companion animal welfare. 17 00:01:03,870 --> 00:01:09,649 It's a specific article type that the journal animal welfare is using and of 18 00:01:09,649 --> 00:01:14,000 course there are review articles and original research, but this horizon 19 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,310 topic, it's more of a discussion paper. 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,360 It presents new ways of considering a topic. 21 00:01:20,390 --> 00:01:24,170 When you say a horizon topic, it's something that we see as 22 00:01:24,170 --> 00:01:26,990 a new important research area. 23 00:01:27,050 --> 00:01:31,500 So it's a way of actually also trying to look into the future. 24 00:01:32,009 --> 00:01:36,570 It actually became quite a long article because we started to give an overview 25 00:01:36,570 --> 00:01:40,350 of the background for the current situation within dog breeding and 26 00:01:40,350 --> 00:01:42,059 the health issues that we are facing. 27 00:01:42,479 --> 00:01:46,410 We wrote about domestication and the formation of the different dog 28 00:01:46,410 --> 00:01:50,580 types, which is different than our modern understanding of breeds. 29 00:01:50,820 --> 00:01:55,289 And then we wanted to describe some of the dynamics that led to inherited 30 00:01:55,289 --> 00:01:57,539 diseases in pedigree dog populations. 31 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,780 So we wrote about the results of breeding in closed populations, the 32 00:02:03,780 --> 00:02:08,430 use of inbreeding to make the breeds uniform and the use of popular science. 33 00:02:08,519 --> 00:02:12,810 And then there's the whole section about extreme confirmation, 34 00:02:12,870 --> 00:02:15,990 exaggerated breed characteristics. 35 00:02:16,049 --> 00:02:19,680 And then what we wanted to do was also different solutions used to 36 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,864 work against these problems and some of them is that we should just 37 00:02:23,864 --> 00:02:25,875 abandon the whole concept of breed. 38 00:02:25,934 --> 00:02:30,015 Some people argue that these designer breeds are free 39 00:02:30,015 --> 00:02:31,424 from the inherited diseases. 40 00:02:31,424 --> 00:02:36,614 We go through the literature and there was not any solid evidence that these designer 41 00:02:36,614 --> 00:02:39,285 breeds were healthier than pedigree dogs. 42 00:02:39,825 --> 00:02:44,144 We defended the concept of breed saying that there are benefits from 43 00:02:44,415 --> 00:02:50,160 keeping different types of dogs because it's important for future 44 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:52,320 dog owners to know what they buy. 45 00:02:52,380 --> 00:02:55,890 How much time can you spend on exercising, grooming, washing, 46 00:02:55,890 --> 00:02:57,030 or taking care of the dog? 47 00:02:57,030 --> 00:03:01,410 So it may help anticipate welfare problems and prevent them. 48 00:03:02,220 --> 00:03:07,609 Yeah, especially if there's a mismatch between the needs of the dog and the 49 00:03:07,609 --> 00:03:11,630 expectation of the owner, then it's very unhappy situation for both. 50 00:03:11,630 --> 00:03:14,990 Of course, you should always look at the individual dog, but still some 51 00:03:14,990 --> 00:03:17,390 dogs need more exercise than others. 52 00:03:17,450 --> 00:03:23,270 There's an urgent need to change dynamics within the dog breeding community, 53 00:03:23,660 --> 00:03:29,960 prioritizing health and moving away from exaggerated features because they 54 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:35,000 are harmful to many dogs, and it's a widespread responsibility because. 55 00:03:35,519 --> 00:03:39,000 As it is now, a lot of the responsibilities are put upon the 56 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,079 organized kennel clubs or the FCI, the international organization. 57 00:03:43,140 --> 00:03:48,600 But in many countries there are also people who produce a lot of puppies 58 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:53,100 for family dogs and they have an equal responsibility to produce healthy dogs. 59 00:03:53,100 --> 00:03:56,495 Not only when it comes to genetics but also when it comes 60 00:03:56,495 --> 00:04:01,595 to socialization and the welfare of the bitches used for breeding. 61 00:04:01,595 --> 00:04:05,825 Some countries, they have taken legislation into use to try and 62 00:04:05,915 --> 00:04:07,864 provide better health for dogs. 63 00:04:07,864 --> 00:04:12,424 Actually, in Denmark, the new legislation came into force 1st of July this summer. 64 00:04:12,424 --> 00:04:17,675 So it's brand new and according to this legislation, some specific 65 00:04:17,825 --> 00:04:21,965 dog types or breeds go through health screening, hips and elbows, 66 00:04:21,995 --> 00:04:23,975 examination of the heart and so on. 67 00:04:24,095 --> 00:04:28,575 And this new legislation is covering all people who want to breed a litter. 68 00:04:28,625 --> 00:04:34,275 It's not commercial breeders or registered breeders, every person who breeds a 69 00:04:34,275 --> 00:04:36,914 litter has to apply to these rules. 70 00:04:37,245 --> 00:04:41,685 So if my neighbor has a Labrador and he decides that this Labrador should have a 71 00:04:41,685 --> 00:04:45,885 litter, then she has to have this Labrador x-rayed for hip dysplasia, for instance. 72 00:04:46,724 --> 00:04:48,195 So it's gonna be very exciting. 73 00:04:48,195 --> 00:04:52,125 There's a huge communication task to get this information out there. 74 00:04:52,125 --> 00:04:56,114 But yeah, we will see how it actually will benefit the dog breeding 75 00:04:56,175 --> 00:05:00,330 in the long run, but I think it has some very promising aspects. 76 00:05:00,780 --> 00:05:02,400 That's really really interesting. 77 00:05:02,430 --> 00:05:05,490 How do they approach for breedings tests? 78 00:05:05,550 --> 00:05:11,670 Is there a test specifically for every breed, or is it regardless of the breed? 79 00:05:12,180 --> 00:05:15,840 There's a list of breeds, if we take hip dysplasia, there is a list that these 80 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:21,480 breeds should have a specific hip score before they are allowed for breeding. 81 00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:27,180 If you have crosses with at least 50% of a specific breed, it's mandatory 82 00:05:27,180 --> 00:05:28,530 for them to have hip screening. 83 00:05:28,770 --> 00:05:32,160 And then there are some tests, for instance, the heart screening for 84 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:33,750 the Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. 85 00:05:34,260 --> 00:05:38,250 They have to go through a screening for the specific heart disease 86 00:05:38,250 --> 00:05:39,659 that they are suffering from. 87 00:05:39,990 --> 00:05:45,135 So that's only one test for one breed, and that's the only breed who has a 88 00:05:45,135 --> 00:05:47,145 mandatory examination of the heart. 89 00:05:47,385 --> 00:05:51,835 And so far you've mentioned phenotypical traits that can be X-rayed or scanned. 90 00:05:52,185 --> 00:05:55,545 Are genetic tests included in those pre-breeding screening? 91 00:05:55,935 --> 00:05:58,005 It, it's not included in the legislation. 92 00:05:58,005 --> 00:06:00,645 If you look at the Danish Kennel Club, they have some breeding 93 00:06:00,645 --> 00:06:04,995 rules for specific breeds and their genetic tests are included, but 94 00:06:04,995 --> 00:06:06,495 it's not part of this legislation. 95 00:06:07,094 --> 00:06:08,145 What's your view on that? 96 00:06:08,265 --> 00:06:09,585 Would it be more efficient? 97 00:06:09,615 --> 00:06:14,805 Would it be another barrier because of what it entails from a financial 98 00:06:14,805 --> 00:06:16,995 point of view, or would it be good? 99 00:06:17,594 --> 00:06:21,135 Yeah, it's a difficult question because some of the genetic tests, 100 00:06:21,135 --> 00:06:26,414 they test for diseases that are relatively widespread in the population. 101 00:06:26,419 --> 00:06:31,724 Other tests are very breed specific and maybe more relevant to use within 102 00:06:31,724 --> 00:06:36,790 a pedigree population where you know what you've got and specifically that 103 00:06:36,850 --> 00:06:42,885 this breed is really this breed, but if you can imagine that a very solid 104 00:06:42,885 --> 00:06:48,195 genetic test will be developed for the MMVD heart problem in the Cavalier, it 105 00:06:48,195 --> 00:06:50,625 might change from scanning to DNA test. 106 00:06:50,625 --> 00:06:55,995 But I think we need some really solid evidence that the DNA test is doing 107 00:06:55,995 --> 00:07:00,585 a better job in this specific area because in other areas, if you look at 108 00:07:00,585 --> 00:07:05,115 the progressive retinal atrophy in some breeds, the Labrador, for instance, you 109 00:07:05,115 --> 00:07:10,065 have the PRCD and you have a genetic test and it's possible to identify 110 00:07:10,094 --> 00:07:11,805 the carriers and that's a good thing. 111 00:07:12,135 --> 00:07:15,705 But it works very well in, in a pedigree population. 112 00:07:15,705 --> 00:07:18,645 But it might be more difficult to use as part of a legislation. 113 00:07:19,935 --> 00:07:24,705 It's very interesting when we talk about this future, I think it's a very 114 00:07:24,825 --> 00:07:30,075 interesting and relevant topic also for the whole veterinary profession because 115 00:07:30,075 --> 00:07:35,475 it's just developing so fast, new tests and new ways of looking at things. 116 00:07:35,715 --> 00:07:39,555 And I understand as a general practitioner maybe to hang onto all these new 117 00:07:39,555 --> 00:07:43,605 things because genetics is not the only area where things are developing. 118 00:07:43,605 --> 00:07:45,405 It's developing all over the place. 119 00:07:45,405 --> 00:07:50,895 So I think it's a huge task also for the veterinarians and for instance, 120 00:07:50,925 --> 00:07:55,275 when this new legislation is coming into force in Denmark, they will probably 121 00:07:55,335 --> 00:07:59,935 be approached by breeders or others saying, I want to breed this dog, what 122 00:07:59,935 --> 00:08:02,265 should I do to fulfill the legislation? 123 00:08:02,655 --> 00:08:06,705 Actually, this spring I had a veterinary masters student that made her final 124 00:08:06,885 --> 00:08:12,315 thesis as a questionnaire study among Danish small animal practitioners looking 125 00:08:12,315 --> 00:08:18,540 at their role with regards to genetic counselors or breeding consultants, 126 00:08:18,540 --> 00:08:23,730 because it's not previously been a very big part of the small animal profession. 127 00:08:24,180 --> 00:08:28,680 I think that many general practitioners, when they have a dog in front of 128 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,860 them, they are very focused on this individual dog, and that's logical. 129 00:08:32,429 --> 00:08:37,665 But if you think about breeding, that individual is part of a population and 130 00:08:37,905 --> 00:08:42,645 if this animal is used for breeding, it might be a benefit for the population as a 131 00:08:42,645 --> 00:08:44,865 whole, but it might also be the contrary. 132 00:08:45,255 --> 00:08:47,325 So we were interested in how they were looking at this. 133 00:08:47,385 --> 00:08:51,555 Most of the veterinarians that answered said that they really wanted to be 134 00:08:51,555 --> 00:08:55,905 asked, they wished that, that the breeders had come to them and asked 135 00:08:55,910 --> 00:09:01,335 them because often they were involved when the meeting had already taken place 136 00:09:01,365 --> 00:09:05,415 or the puppies were born with defects or whatever, and they really, they 137 00:09:05,415 --> 00:09:08,775 would like to be used as counselors. 138 00:09:08,775 --> 00:09:12,625 But on the other hand, many of them, they actually expressed that they were 139 00:09:12,625 --> 00:09:18,275 not quite confident that they had the competencies to perform this counseling. 140 00:09:18,705 --> 00:09:22,425 Especially when we were talking about DNA tests, how to interpret 141 00:09:22,425 --> 00:09:23,925 the results of DNA test. 142 00:09:24,195 --> 00:09:28,485 Most of them said that DNA testing was something that they did when the clients 143 00:09:28,485 --> 00:09:31,965 or the breeders requested it, they came and said, I want to have a blood 144 00:09:31,995 --> 00:09:33,915 sample or cheek swab for this test. 145 00:09:33,915 --> 00:09:35,535 And then they said, yes, we will do that. 146 00:09:35,955 --> 00:09:39,410 But they were not quite confident to go into a discussion and 147 00:09:39,410 --> 00:09:41,240 say, is this the right DNA test? 148 00:09:41,270 --> 00:09:42,650 Should we do something else? 149 00:09:42,710 --> 00:09:47,030 So they really wanted to get involved, but they also had a great interest in 150 00:09:47,030 --> 00:09:49,370 some continuing education on this topic. 151 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,330 And I think that's something we will approach the Danish Veterinary Association 152 00:09:53,330 --> 00:09:58,070 about and say, could we try to set up course because they were quite interested. 153 00:09:58,940 --> 00:10:02,595 And I also think actually that some of them also mentioned that it could 154 00:10:02,595 --> 00:10:07,005 be a good thing as professionals, you have to get paid for the services 155 00:10:07,005 --> 00:10:12,615 you offer, and they actually were very positive about providing a 156 00:10:12,615 --> 00:10:15,090 service that was genetic counseling. 157 00:10:15,090 --> 00:10:17,880 So you could actually, as a breeder said, I want to make an 158 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,380 appointment with my veterinarian. 159 00:10:19,740 --> 00:10:23,220 I want them to go through my animal from nose to tail and say, 160 00:10:23,430 --> 00:10:25,050 is this a good breeding animal? 161 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:29,099 Which kind of tests physical or DNA should be performed? 162 00:10:29,099 --> 00:10:33,765 How could we actually be as sure as one can be that this 163 00:10:33,765 --> 00:10:34,815 is a good breeding animal? 164 00:10:35,145 --> 00:10:39,225 So if they could offer this as a service, because it was usually some conversation 165 00:10:39,225 --> 00:10:42,975 that just came in on the side, it was not something that they really had the time to 166 00:10:42,975 --> 00:10:48,015 go into details with and I think that was interesting as well that the veterinarians 167 00:10:48,195 --> 00:10:50,715 expressed their interest in this field. 168 00:10:50,805 --> 00:10:54,495 I think that proves that's very promising because the veterinarians 169 00:10:54,495 --> 00:10:59,040 have the possibility to have an impact on the future for dogs, for 170 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,490 dog welfare, and in this aspect of breeding, they have the competencies. 171 00:11:03,870 --> 00:11:09,569 I can't see anyone else who could be better skilled to evaluate the health of 172 00:11:09,569 --> 00:11:15,705 an animal, but of course they have to be confident also if they discourage breeding 173 00:11:15,735 --> 00:11:20,145 from an animal, because communication is a very big part of the veterinary profession 174 00:11:20,145 --> 00:11:24,795 and you need to communicate this in a good way to a breeder standing there with a 175 00:11:24,795 --> 00:11:29,135 dog that they think is a very good dog, and then the veterinarians say theres this 176 00:11:29,135 --> 00:11:34,065 and this, this is the reason why I would not recommend this dog to be bred from. 177 00:11:35,475 --> 00:11:39,765 I wanted to ask you something about the new legal implementation. 178 00:11:40,035 --> 00:11:41,055 How does it get enforced? 179 00:11:41,865 --> 00:11:45,885 We've been involved in the preparation of this legislation, both me and my 180 00:11:45,885 --> 00:11:48,945 colleagues from the center, and also people from the Danish Kennel Club 181 00:11:48,945 --> 00:11:52,995 and from the Animal Welfare Denmark, different welfare organizations. 182 00:11:53,265 --> 00:11:55,965 And of course we discussed it with the authorities. 183 00:11:55,995 --> 00:11:59,685 How could you be sure that the breeders do what they must do? 184 00:11:59,685 --> 00:12:04,275 And they said that all kinds of legislation, it's difficult to be 185 00:12:04,275 --> 00:12:08,055 sure that everyone is doing the right thing, but it sets a direction. 186 00:12:08,505 --> 00:12:13,095 And of course you could say that you could have some checks. 187 00:12:13,125 --> 00:12:17,595 It's not something that the breeders have to register the results in a database 188 00:12:17,595 --> 00:12:19,574 where the authorities go in and check. 189 00:12:19,574 --> 00:12:20,595 It's a process. 190 00:12:20,595 --> 00:12:21,975 There is no obligation. 191 00:12:22,035 --> 00:12:25,675 The veterinarians should not call the authorities and say, we have 192 00:12:25,675 --> 00:12:27,255 someone here who broke the law. 193 00:12:27,435 --> 00:12:29,985 And that was very important for the veterinarians because they 194 00:12:29,985 --> 00:12:34,215 have this relationship with their clients and a confident relationship. 195 00:12:34,215 --> 00:12:37,814 So that was important for the veterinarians that they were not forced 196 00:12:37,814 --> 00:12:42,035 to do that, but, on the other hand, the authorities said that they hope 197 00:12:42,035 --> 00:12:45,455 the veterinarians would say, okay, you should have done this and this, 198 00:12:45,455 --> 00:12:49,770 but remember, if you are going to have another litter, remember to do this. 199 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,530 So right now, it's a matter of trust. 200 00:12:52,530 --> 00:12:55,770 It's certainly also a question that the puppy buyers, they should be 201 00:12:55,770 --> 00:12:58,630 asking for these certificates or proof. 202 00:12:58,650 --> 00:13:02,310 For the Pedigree dogs, it's easy because within the Danish Kennel Club, for 203 00:13:02,310 --> 00:13:06,810 instance, they have a database, dog web, where all results go in, they're 204 00:13:06,810 --> 00:13:10,890 publicly available and you can see what are the hip status, for instance, for 205 00:13:10,890 --> 00:13:14,760 the parents of this litter of Labrador Retrievers, but of course in the 206 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,250 remaining population we don't have this. 207 00:13:17,820 --> 00:13:22,200 Maybe there is some work in progress on making a database. 208 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,220 Actually, the Danish Kennel Club has offered to make a parallel database. 209 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:27,420 That's great. 210 00:13:27,569 --> 00:13:32,040 The fact that they're considering registers for none pure bred dogs as well. 211 00:13:32,100 --> 00:13:32,490 Yeah. 212 00:13:32,670 --> 00:13:33,000 Yeah. 213 00:13:33,005 --> 00:13:33,694 That's brilliant. 214 00:13:33,694 --> 00:13:33,704 Yeah. 215 00:13:33,704 --> 00:13:37,319 But, but of course people need to know that it's there and there again, also, 216 00:13:37,319 --> 00:13:41,670 the veterinarians have a very important role in communicating because all the 217 00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:46,050 systems, when we talk about evaluation of hip x-rays, for instance, there is a 218 00:13:46,050 --> 00:13:51,329 specific way of doing this and there are some approved scrutinizers and things 219 00:13:51,329 --> 00:13:56,050 like that for the pedigree population, but it's much less regulated when we 220 00:13:56,050 --> 00:13:58,099 are outside the pedigree population. 221 00:13:58,099 --> 00:14:02,650 So, I think it's a very good thing that the new legislation covers 222 00:14:02,860 --> 00:14:06,880 everyone because I think that would be of benefit for the whole population. 223 00:14:07,150 --> 00:14:10,430 It's part of the new Danish legislation also that brachycephalic 224 00:14:10,449 --> 00:14:12,400 breeds, they have this BOAS testing. 225 00:14:12,995 --> 00:14:17,915 This exercise test that is developed by Jane Ladlow in Cambridge where a 226 00:14:17,915 --> 00:14:23,075 veterinarian, specially educated or certified veterinarian, they look at 227 00:14:23,075 --> 00:14:28,115 the dog and then they perform a three minute exercise test and the veterinarian 228 00:14:28,235 --> 00:14:32,925 make a auscultation of the lungs and score the breathing before and after. 229 00:14:33,315 --> 00:14:36,645 And they have to have a score of zero or one to two before 230 00:14:36,645 --> 00:14:37,785 they can be used for breeding. 231 00:14:38,194 --> 00:14:41,695 And that's the Pug and the English Bulldog and the French bulldog. 232 00:14:41,715 --> 00:14:46,220 So these three breeds have mandatory BOAS testing from 1st of July. 233 00:14:47,089 --> 00:14:48,439 Yeah, it is interesting. 234 00:14:48,530 --> 00:14:52,430 So based on your extensive experience in this field, what type 235 00:14:52,430 --> 00:14:56,660 of actions do you think veterinary institutions, like regulatory bodies 236 00:14:56,660 --> 00:15:00,920 or professional associations or academic institutions, could start 237 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,380 to empower veterinary professionals to unify their voices and advocate 238 00:15:04,380 --> 00:15:06,439 for better welfare around breeding? 239 00:15:07,515 --> 00:15:10,875 That's a very good question because I think that, at least the results from 240 00:15:10,875 --> 00:15:14,325 the questionnaire study I mentioned, showed that the veterinarians, they are 241 00:15:14,325 --> 00:15:18,555 interested in getting some education and increase their competencies in this 242 00:15:18,555 --> 00:15:25,245 area, and I think that the veterinary organizations is a relevant place to 243 00:15:25,245 --> 00:15:27,915 offer this kind of continuing education. 244 00:15:28,365 --> 00:15:32,564 And we have also considered that there are a lot of other specialties. 245 00:15:32,564 --> 00:15:37,094 There is the European College of Eye Diseases, or there are veterinarians 246 00:15:37,155 --> 00:15:42,710 working in specific areas, but compared to human medicine, we don't have a clinical 247 00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:48,510 genetics college or specific education to be a genetic counselor or a person who's 248 00:15:48,590 --> 00:15:50,840 giving advice regarding genetic diseases. 249 00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:53,660 And maybe it would be interesting to actually have some kind of 250 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,650 a diplomat in clinical genetics or master of clinical genetics. 251 00:15:57,740 --> 00:16:00,140 Maybe it would be interesting to, to develop that. 252 00:16:00,140 --> 00:16:04,620 We've been discussing this back and forth where I work and the other thing 253 00:16:04,620 --> 00:16:09,390 is also to look at the veterinary education to see, at the curriculum we 254 00:16:09,390 --> 00:16:14,220 have the day one competencies document from different vet schools and see how 255 00:16:14,220 --> 00:16:18,300 could we actually increase the knowledge that the vet students have when they 256 00:16:18,300 --> 00:16:21,120 graduate within the field of genetics. 257 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,325 And then of course, there is this possibility to educate the general 258 00:16:25,385 --> 00:16:28,595 practitioners, and I think it would be nice like an organization 259 00:16:28,595 --> 00:16:33,155 like the WSAVA, that they could actually go forward within this. 260 00:16:33,275 --> 00:16:39,005 We work together in the Hereditary Disease Committee trying to define what 261 00:16:39,005 --> 00:16:43,740 are the competencies that are needed for a general practitioner to meet the 262 00:16:43,740 --> 00:16:48,900 demands for the future or to increase the welfare of dogs when it comes to breeding. 263 00:16:48,930 --> 00:16:50,640 I think that would be very interesting. 264 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,199 And when the WSAVA Congress was held in Copenhagen, there was this 265 00:16:55,199 --> 00:16:58,890 document that was a focus on healthy breeding and we had a lot of talks 266 00:16:58,890 --> 00:17:01,290 about brachycephalic dogs afterwards. 267 00:17:01,319 --> 00:17:05,010 There was a document that says, vets must dare to speak out. 268 00:17:05,369 --> 00:17:09,030 And that was actually, I think it still holds true that 269 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:10,710 vets must dare to speak out. 270 00:17:10,710 --> 00:17:14,550 But of course if you speak out, then you need to know that you're 271 00:17:14,550 --> 00:17:18,420 actually on solid ground, that your competencies are really high. 272 00:17:20,070 --> 00:17:23,820 After Helle Friis Proschowsky, Yaiza is joined by Lucy Hoile for 273 00:17:23,820 --> 00:17:25,230 the second part of this episode. 274 00:17:29,010 --> 00:17:34,320 What are your main concerns regarding the ethical and welfare around 275 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:35,550 keeping and breeding hybrid cats? 276 00:17:37,155 --> 00:17:39,195 So for me, I think there are two things. 277 00:17:39,195 --> 00:17:43,245 It's the welfare of the animal and making sure we are able to meet 278 00:17:43,245 --> 00:17:46,425 their needs effectively and to give them a good quality of life 279 00:17:46,455 --> 00:17:49,754 in their very unique environment. 280 00:17:49,754 --> 00:17:52,805 So what they're used to in terms of, if we think about the wild side, they're 281 00:17:52,805 --> 00:17:56,985 used to a free living environment or a wild environment, especially if 282 00:17:56,985 --> 00:18:02,465 we think about the Savannahs who are a domestic cat bred with a serval. 283 00:18:02,874 --> 00:18:07,439 So the servals aren't living in domestic homes at all and so it is trying to 284 00:18:07,439 --> 00:18:13,110 balance those needs, like the wild side with the domestic home, because 285 00:18:13,290 --> 00:18:17,070 cats meet so many different challenges in a normal, regular household. 286 00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:22,020 So it's making sure if it's possible for us to meet those needs and how 287 00:18:22,020 --> 00:18:24,990 we can do that and then on the flip side, it's making sure that the 288 00:18:24,990 --> 00:18:30,300 person can live happily with that cat as well because the cat will then 289 00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:31,860 pose challenges for that person too. 290 00:18:31,860 --> 00:18:33,750 So we know cats can be aggressive. 291 00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:38,970 Any cat can be aggressive and cat bites can be serious, it can be dangerous. 292 00:18:39,090 --> 00:18:43,440 And then with upscaling that so that cat is bigger, that cat is more territorial, 293 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,210 so those risks are then bigger as well. 294 00:18:45,210 --> 00:18:48,630 So I'm coming from the place where I want to make sure that cat is happy, 295 00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:51,630 but also that person is safe and that person knows what they've got and 296 00:18:51,630 --> 00:18:52,650 that knows what they're dealing with. 297 00:18:53,370 --> 00:18:56,850 Yeah, it definitely is a really complex issue, but those are the two sort 298 00:18:56,850 --> 00:18:58,950 of main risks that I can foresee. 299 00:18:59,340 --> 00:19:02,250 It is not just about the physical injuries, isn't it? 300 00:19:02,254 --> 00:19:05,669 It is about the fear the people experience when they live with an 301 00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:10,560 animal that they're afraid of which obviously modifies the human cat bond. 302 00:19:10,980 --> 00:19:11,460 Yeah. 303 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:15,120 If we're talking about Bengals, they are quite well established by now. 304 00:19:15,390 --> 00:19:19,050 So if we are thinking about the breeding process for Bengals it's 305 00:19:19,050 --> 00:19:22,110 a little bit easier now because there are plenty of Bengals around. 306 00:19:22,500 --> 00:19:26,430 It's not such an early process, so with like Savannahs and the newer 307 00:19:26,430 --> 00:19:30,524 breeds, we are still having to breed really early on in the lines. 308 00:19:30,675 --> 00:19:33,195 So they've still got a lot of that wild nature about them. 309 00:19:33,524 --> 00:19:38,625 And I hate the thought of the F1s, the very first pairing because if 310 00:19:38,625 --> 00:19:41,705 you think about a breeding pair, so you've got serval and you have a 311 00:19:41,705 --> 00:19:45,675 domestic cat, a domestic male wouldn't be able to make with a serval female 312 00:19:45,675 --> 00:19:46,754 just 'cause of the size difference. 313 00:19:46,815 --> 00:19:50,445 So that process must just be absolutely harrowing for that domestic female. 314 00:19:50,475 --> 00:19:52,845 Can you imagine your cat just being closed into an enclosure with a 315 00:19:52,845 --> 00:19:54,975 serval male who's ready to mate? 316 00:19:55,239 --> 00:19:57,070 I can't think of anything more petrifying. 317 00:19:57,639 --> 00:19:59,080 The female can get hurt. 318 00:19:59,229 --> 00:20:02,169 So that's a massive welfare concern from my point of view. 319 00:20:02,229 --> 00:20:05,919 Then on the flip side of that is, okay, so we could do artificial insemination, 320 00:20:05,919 --> 00:20:09,804 we could impregnate the serval in that way so the serval can then birth 321 00:20:10,524 --> 00:20:14,250 Savannahhs, but then you are having these kittens raised by the serval, so 322 00:20:14,250 --> 00:20:18,870 that removes any scope of being able to socialize them properly and what 323 00:20:18,870 --> 00:20:20,280 environment will they be bought into? 324 00:20:20,340 --> 00:20:23,910 Even if a domestic cat is carrying serval kittens, is she gonna be 325 00:20:23,910 --> 00:20:27,450 able to carry them successfully because there'll be a bunch bigger 326 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,070 than your normal domestic kittens. 327 00:20:29,070 --> 00:20:32,340 The mating process itself, I think it's different for Bengals now 'cause you 328 00:20:32,340 --> 00:20:35,910 could make two Bengals, but starting off these new breeds and these new 329 00:20:35,910 --> 00:20:39,510 lines and getting your really wild cats and mating them to domestics. 330 00:20:40,050 --> 00:20:43,680 It's just so unethical from my point of view, and I just can't see 331 00:20:43,740 --> 00:20:45,180 how anyone's on board with this. 332 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:46,470 Is there any regulation? 333 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,080 Is anyone actually looking at this stuff or is it just happening? 334 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,840 And then we are just feeding into that by buying the kittens and taking them on. 335 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:52,500 It's stressful. 336 00:20:52,889 --> 00:20:53,909 It is concerning. 337 00:20:53,940 --> 00:20:54,270 Yeah. 338 00:20:54,629 --> 00:21:01,139 So in, in your experience, how do hybrid cats behavioral traits affect 339 00:21:01,170 --> 00:21:03,629 their welfare in the domestic settings? 340 00:21:03,659 --> 00:21:06,210 Which are the most common behavioral problems you find in 341 00:21:06,210 --> 00:21:08,040 these breeds in your daily work? 342 00:21:09,195 --> 00:21:14,745 So just in my experience, it seems to be either they're super 343 00:21:14,745 --> 00:21:16,575 aggressive and territorial. 344 00:21:16,815 --> 00:21:21,885 So for example, if you have quite a confident cat, then some people 345 00:21:21,885 --> 00:21:25,245 think that's because they're bigger and because they're full of energy 346 00:21:25,245 --> 00:21:27,764 and they've got high energetic needs. 347 00:21:28,095 --> 00:21:32,475 Then it leans into rough play because they are bigger, because 348 00:21:32,475 --> 00:21:33,795 they like to pounce on things. 349 00:21:33,795 --> 00:21:36,915 For that cat they might start off with feeling like it's play, but 350 00:21:36,915 --> 00:21:40,680 if they're pushed too far or it becomes too intense for them, then 351 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,200 they move into aggression because they're like, actually I was liking 352 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:44,310 this, but I don't like this anymore. 353 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:48,300 And even if they do like it, their bites and their play can still hurt 354 00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:51,600 that person because their claws are involved, their teeth are involved. 355 00:21:52,050 --> 00:21:55,350 But then if they are pushed too far, how do they get that person to stop? 356 00:21:55,890 --> 00:21:57,390 They will have to bite that bit harder. 357 00:21:57,390 --> 00:22:00,510 They will have to use claws to defend themselves and 358 00:22:00,510 --> 00:22:01,380 say, I've had enough of that. 359 00:22:01,935 --> 00:22:05,985 So that's definitely one area that I would be very worried about. 360 00:22:06,284 --> 00:22:10,814 On the flip side, those cats that are super scared, which is another thing I've 361 00:22:10,814 --> 00:22:15,585 seen particularly with Savannahhs, is they're not suited to a home environment. 362 00:22:15,885 --> 00:22:19,005 I know there will be plenty of examples where theres happy Savannahhs, but I have 363 00:22:19,005 --> 00:22:24,615 seen Savannahhs that have been raised in cages or in houses that just don't give 364 00:22:24,615 --> 00:22:28,875 them all the socialization they need in terms of meeting people, meeting children, 365 00:22:28,875 --> 00:22:30,675 getting used to household noises. 366 00:22:31,125 --> 00:22:33,765 They then can become very scared because they're not prepared for this. 367 00:22:33,765 --> 00:22:36,255 Their socialization window will have closed by then. 368 00:22:36,255 --> 00:22:39,855 So all that learning they did as a kitten happens with the breeder, 369 00:22:40,125 --> 00:22:41,475 which sets them up for adult lives. 370 00:22:41,505 --> 00:22:45,675 I've seen plenty of Savannahhs or other breeds that are hiding a lot of 371 00:22:45,675 --> 00:22:50,115 the time, and they only come out at night and they're not lovely lap cats. 372 00:22:50,145 --> 00:22:53,355 If you try to pick them up or if you go to them and you try to 373 00:22:53,355 --> 00:22:55,905 interact with them, they're not coming out and attacking people. 374 00:22:56,025 --> 00:22:57,045 They just wanna be left alone. 375 00:22:57,825 --> 00:23:02,025 It's a massive of welfare concern because they're scared and they're stressed. 376 00:23:02,325 --> 00:23:05,955 So in that scenario, it is easy to overlook their needs and be like, 377 00:23:05,985 --> 00:23:08,865 oh, he doesn't come out much, but he's happy, he's fine, when actually 378 00:23:09,015 --> 00:23:12,165 he probably isn't happy and he needs a different environment to thrive. 379 00:23:12,345 --> 00:23:16,065 And we're such a visual and tactile species, aren't we? 380 00:23:16,410 --> 00:23:16,680 Yeah 381 00:23:16,710 --> 00:23:20,310 We feel impressed by anything that we perceive through our 382 00:23:20,310 --> 00:23:21,900 eyes and we want to touch it. 383 00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:25,680 That's precisely where I think we encountered so many problems with the 384 00:23:26,010 --> 00:23:31,770 human cat interactions, that desire to establish like a physical interaction. 385 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,180 Yeah definitely and I also think that, why do we want cats? 386 00:23:35,330 --> 00:23:38,750 If you want a cat that you can stroke and will sit on your lap and you can 387 00:23:38,750 --> 00:23:42,200 pick up and cuddle, there are cats out there that also love that stuff. 388 00:23:43,070 --> 00:23:46,190 If you want to have a Savannah because it's cool and it will look good, then 389 00:23:46,550 --> 00:23:51,140 we can't expect that cat to be snugly, and we have to make that distinction 390 00:23:51,260 --> 00:23:55,070 between those cats that love all their physical, tactile attention that we 391 00:23:55,070 --> 00:23:57,950 want to give, and the cats that just want to live in your house and do 392 00:23:57,950 --> 00:24:01,725 their own thing because if we have that distinction, then that's much better 393 00:24:01,725 --> 00:24:03,915 for the cat that we have in our lives. 394 00:24:04,334 --> 00:24:08,774 It would be great to have your dating app for cats and potential prospective 395 00:24:08,774 --> 00:24:13,245 owners because what I've noticed is that people don't really think very 396 00:24:13,245 --> 00:24:17,445 much of what they wanna get from that relationship with their cat. 397 00:24:17,445 --> 00:24:21,675 It's a bit complicated sometimes but that would facilitate a lot, the 398 00:24:21,675 --> 00:24:25,875 selection of that kitten that you're going to, adult or the adult cat as well. 399 00:24:26,115 --> 00:24:30,505 I was looking through how to select the kitten that the part of the 400 00:24:30,505 --> 00:24:32,575 iCatCare website this morning. 401 00:24:32,575 --> 00:24:37,025 And I think that's a beautiful tool for people to look at before getting to chose 402 00:24:37,025 --> 00:24:42,505 their cat because a lot of clients I find in general practice are not aware 403 00:24:42,505 --> 00:24:47,435 of their wrong reasons for getting a Bengal or any purebred cat in general, 404 00:24:47,515 --> 00:24:51,570 they just look what they look like and then when they find out health related 405 00:24:51,570 --> 00:24:55,710 problems or behavioral problems that they may have, then they're obviously 406 00:24:55,710 --> 00:24:57,930 very disappointed but they don't know. 407 00:24:58,110 --> 00:25:01,320 When someone says to me that their cat is showing a problem, and it's a 408 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,340 breed specific thing, like for example, a lady had got in touch and said 409 00:25:05,340 --> 00:25:10,200 that her Siamese was meowing a lot, and I thought, that's not a behavior 410 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,375 problem because that's what they do. 411 00:25:12,375 --> 00:25:14,175 They're very vocal, they're very sociable. 412 00:25:14,625 --> 00:25:17,895 You definitely need to know what you're getting and even if it's a rescue or 413 00:25:17,895 --> 00:25:21,585 a mog and it doesn't have a particular breed, you can still get to know them. 414 00:25:21,585 --> 00:25:24,315 You can ask questions about if it's a breeder, what they've been like up 415 00:25:24,315 --> 00:25:26,805 to that point, and if it's a rescue, what they were like with their 416 00:25:26,805 --> 00:25:29,395 previous owners, and make sure it's definitely a right match for them both. 417 00:25:30,860 --> 00:25:33,270 Yes, the matching process is so important, isn't it? 418 00:25:33,420 --> 00:25:33,600 Yeah. 419 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,710 You mentioned before that some behavioral traits have been selected in Bengals, 420 00:25:37,710 --> 00:25:41,940 and those later generations of Bengals have a greater tolerance to physical 421 00:25:41,940 --> 00:25:44,970 interaction, at least that's my impression working in first opinion practice 422 00:25:44,970 --> 00:25:48,120 based on the patients I've seen in the last two decades, have you observed 423 00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:52,410 a similar trend, and if so, has this helped to avoid problematic situations 424 00:25:52,410 --> 00:25:56,490 in the household where they live or are still some behavioral problems 425 00:25:56,490 --> 00:25:58,950 persisting despite this selection? 426 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,440 Yeah, I think I would agree with you. 427 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:04,950 I've definitely seen a similar trend in that, there are plenty of Bengals out 428 00:26:04,950 --> 00:26:09,720 there living happy lives and with no problems at all, but I would say they 429 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,640 are more sensitive to certain things that other cats are more resilient to. 430 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,620 So for example, the Bengals and other hybrids are quite territorial, 431 00:26:19,860 --> 00:26:23,040 more so than some of the other breeds like Ragdolls or some 432 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:24,330 of the more easygoing breeds. 433 00:26:25,260 --> 00:26:28,649 For Bengals, if you introduce a new cat to the household or if you have a 434 00:26:28,649 --> 00:26:32,909 lot of environmental change, then in my experience they can be more sensitive 435 00:26:32,909 --> 00:26:36,780 to that and I think because they are more territorial naturally, then they 436 00:26:36,780 --> 00:26:41,250 might lean towards urine marking and other territorial behaviors that are 437 00:26:41,250 --> 00:26:42,689 quite tricky for us to deal with. 438 00:26:42,689 --> 00:26:45,659 They're trying to establish their territory while trying to share 439 00:26:45,659 --> 00:26:47,730 with another cat that they didn't sign up to share with, and they 440 00:26:47,730 --> 00:26:49,080 have no choice in that matter. 441 00:26:49,950 --> 00:26:54,270 Also, I would say that generally people tend to keep their Bengals inside 442 00:26:54,270 --> 00:26:58,200 because you know, you're worried about their safety and it's risky outside, but 443 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,610 because they have so much more energy and they have more requirements for more 444 00:27:02,610 --> 00:27:05,670 stimulation, then they can struggle more. 445 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,520 There's a mismatch there and they need a lot of stimulation, but they have 446 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,030 a very restricted environment then that can manifest in problems too. 447 00:27:12,030 --> 00:27:15,630 So you might have your Bengal that's ambushing your ankles in the night because 448 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,650 they want something to chase, or they're scaling the kitchen cupboards because they 449 00:27:19,650 --> 00:27:23,250 want to get up high and they want to do all that fun stuff they can do outside, 450 00:27:23,790 --> 00:27:25,200 but they're doing all that inside. 451 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,115 So that can cause a lot of problems for us and again, in my experience, if your 452 00:27:29,115 --> 00:27:33,015 cat's being a little bit difficult and if we don't respond in the right sort of 453 00:27:33,015 --> 00:27:34,365 way, so we might punish them for that. 454 00:27:34,365 --> 00:27:36,855 If your cat's attached to your ankle in the night when you're trying to go to 455 00:27:36,855 --> 00:27:40,410 the toilet, you'll shake them off or you might shout at them, don't do that, or 456 00:27:40,410 --> 00:27:43,875 you might punish them and some people will punish them with water sprays or 457 00:27:44,055 --> 00:27:46,875 smacking them and all that horrible stuff that we hate to think anyone actually 458 00:27:46,875 --> 00:27:48,525 does but obviously it does happen. 459 00:27:49,035 --> 00:27:53,745 Once we manage that problem through these methods, everything gets so much worse. 460 00:27:53,745 --> 00:27:58,395 And then we do have genuine aggression because the cat's now stressed or scared 461 00:27:58,935 --> 00:28:03,495 and then this stress can then again manifest in way more urine marking, peeing 462 00:28:03,495 --> 00:28:07,725 outside the tray and it can affect their relationships with other people in house 463 00:28:07,725 --> 00:28:08,925 and other animals that they're with. 464 00:28:08,925 --> 00:28:11,415 Yeah, it might need a cat tree, they might need a catio, something that 465 00:28:11,415 --> 00:28:13,155 would resolve the initial issues. 466 00:28:13,435 --> 00:28:17,775 How do you feel when you're facing something as difficult to solve as that? 467 00:28:17,835 --> 00:28:20,775 Because you're talking about the importance of the physical 468 00:28:20,775 --> 00:28:23,955 environment, but also the importance of the social environment. 469 00:28:24,285 --> 00:28:28,635 People nowadays are very used to have a short term solution for a lot of 470 00:28:28,635 --> 00:28:32,925 things, especially when it comes to mental wellbeing or physical wellbeing. 471 00:28:32,925 --> 00:28:38,220 There's an expectation of drugs helping and changing things very rapidly. 472 00:28:38,610 --> 00:28:43,439 What tools do you use to talk to people about this major changes that 473 00:28:43,439 --> 00:28:45,210 the lifestyle of their cats need? 474 00:28:45,659 --> 00:28:50,370 Oh, it's really hard, it is and sometimes I think cats are in 475 00:28:50,370 --> 00:28:53,550 very difficult situations that many cats will struggle with. 476 00:28:53,550 --> 00:28:57,389 Might be a really big multi cat household where there's eight or nine cats trying 477 00:28:57,389 --> 00:29:01,169 to get their place in that territory and I do think when I go to someone's 478 00:29:01,199 --> 00:29:05,910 house and it's that sort of situation, or it's something that there's almost 479 00:29:05,910 --> 00:29:09,660 no hope of resolving it, because sometimes that change isn't doable. 480 00:29:09,660 --> 00:29:13,230 If I'm telling somebody, you need plenty more cat trees, you need to put shelving 481 00:29:13,230 --> 00:29:16,860 up on your walls to make sure that your hybrid has somewhere they can climb, 482 00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:22,110 they can jump, they can run at top speed if they need, and they can help create 483 00:29:22,110 --> 00:29:26,070 that sense of territory while sharing with other animals in the home, then 484 00:29:26,070 --> 00:29:27,260 some people will go, I'm not up for that. 485 00:29:27,470 --> 00:29:30,815 I don't want to change my whole house to suit my cats, and I get that as 486 00:29:30,815 --> 00:29:35,534 well because not many people want their house to be a cat playground, 487 00:29:35,895 --> 00:29:37,725 but this is what your cat needs. 488 00:29:38,084 --> 00:29:41,445 So then it's a difficult conversation to be like, these are your options. 489 00:29:41,655 --> 00:29:47,205 You make the changes to make it work, or that cat suffers, or that cat finds 490 00:29:47,205 --> 00:29:50,790 a different environment where they would be happier, it's really tricky. 491 00:29:50,970 --> 00:29:55,460 Do you work with someone specialized in building catios or a cat playground, 492 00:29:55,620 --> 00:30:00,060 or do you direct new clients to particular services with information 493 00:30:00,060 --> 00:30:02,550 about designing these kind of spaces? 494 00:30:02,939 --> 00:30:06,479 I have places that I recommend, but I don't work with anyone specifically. 495 00:30:06,479 --> 00:30:10,409 And even the places I recommend, it doesn't tick all the boxes. 496 00:30:10,649 --> 00:30:16,379 So there's definitely scope there for a company that designs cat things that 497 00:30:16,429 --> 00:30:20,790 specifically focuses on the cat's welfare, so there's plenty that look beautiful 498 00:30:20,790 --> 00:30:24,090 and they're designed to be in your home but not really look like cat furniture. 499 00:30:24,090 --> 00:30:26,620 And then we want to make sure that the cat's needs are met. 500 00:30:26,639 --> 00:30:30,320 So just one example is when you find some of the cat trees, their 501 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:31,840 platforms one above the other. 502 00:30:32,189 --> 00:30:34,980 So it is hard for a cat to get from one platform to the next 'cause they 503 00:30:34,980 --> 00:30:36,540 almost have to jump straight up. 504 00:30:36,870 --> 00:30:39,780 So you want them staggered, like left, left, right, so they can hop 505 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,550 up or a series of steps type thing. 506 00:30:41,550 --> 00:30:44,459 So something as easy as that and they're definitely really good companies out 507 00:30:44,459 --> 00:30:46,230 there but they're not really easy to find. 508 00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:48,000 Sometimes it can take a little bit of research. 509 00:30:48,405 --> 00:30:52,995 If you had to summarize the characteristics of those physical 510 00:30:52,995 --> 00:30:56,535 and social environments for hybrid cats, so what would you highlight? 511 00:30:56,685 --> 00:31:01,095 If I was trying to create the ideal environment for a cat from scratch, 512 00:31:01,245 --> 00:31:06,045 for the more wild type hybrids 'cause like I say, some Bengals, they're 513 00:31:06,045 --> 00:31:10,575 fine with a little bit of stimulation or a little bit of extra space. 514 00:31:10,875 --> 00:31:14,445 But for the more wild ones like the Savannahs and the other breeds, I 515 00:31:14,445 --> 00:31:16,035 would be careful on their social needs. 516 00:31:16,035 --> 00:31:20,070 So if you have a cat already then that's gonna be very difficult and 517 00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:22,860 I would give thought to whether your existing cat wants to live with a 518 00:31:22,860 --> 00:31:26,490 Savannah or a different hybrid cat, because I bet the answer is no. 519 00:31:26,910 --> 00:31:31,350 Unless, you know, that they're also a Savannah and then I would also think a 520 00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:33,180 cat is a lifelong 20 year commitment. 521 00:31:33,210 --> 00:31:34,290 You have to factor that in. 522 00:31:34,620 --> 00:31:37,350 So what changes are you gonna go through in that 20 years 523 00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:38,460 that are gonna affect your cat? 524 00:31:38,460 --> 00:31:39,540 Are you going to move house? 525 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,730 Are you going to have children one day? 526 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,450 Will you have people staying? 527 00:31:44,260 --> 00:31:46,544 Do you want a dog one day in that 20 years, what challenges 528 00:31:46,544 --> 00:31:48,014 will that cat face in that time? 529 00:31:48,014 --> 00:31:54,135 Because you must have an awareness of that, and you must be able and open to 530 00:31:54,135 --> 00:31:58,185 helping your cat adjust to those things because if you have a hybrid cat and 531 00:31:58,185 --> 00:32:01,754 then you bring in another cat later on, they are territorial and they're 532 00:32:01,754 --> 00:32:03,465 gonna need a very slow introduction. 533 00:32:03,794 --> 00:32:07,245 You are gonna have to be really careful to mitigate the risks because 534 00:32:07,245 --> 00:32:08,445 they're bigger, they're stronger. 535 00:32:08,715 --> 00:32:11,685 One fight might be enough to really injure your new cat coming in. 536 00:32:12,075 --> 00:32:15,570 In terms of other cats, I would recommend getting a bonded pair 537 00:32:15,930 --> 00:32:20,040 of hybrids or two kittens from the same litter 'cause they'll have the 538 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:21,630 best chance of getting on long term. 539 00:32:21,630 --> 00:32:24,750 In terms of the actual physical environment, again, we're back 540 00:32:24,750 --> 00:32:27,660 to that issue of like they, they need lots of stimulation. 541 00:32:27,780 --> 00:32:31,680 So the outside world provides all that in terms of trees to climb and 542 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,730 fences to scale and bugs to chase, and unfortunately, wildlife to chase. 543 00:32:35,790 --> 00:32:39,090 It's impossible to give some hybrids that option because particularly 544 00:32:39,090 --> 00:32:42,915 with the Savannahs, they will hunt and they'll make a massive 545 00:32:42,915 --> 00:32:44,294 dent in the wildlife in the area. 546 00:32:44,294 --> 00:32:47,625 If you live in a quite built up area, there's a lot of cats in one space. 547 00:32:47,685 --> 00:32:50,635 Any cat will find that difficult, especially hybrids. 548 00:32:50,655 --> 00:32:55,365 They're more likely to fight and the risk of injury is high so I would 549 00:32:55,365 --> 00:32:59,264 say that they shouldn't have any free outside access, it's too risky. 550 00:32:59,475 --> 00:33:01,034 Plus, what if someone tries to pick them up? 551 00:33:01,034 --> 00:33:02,385 What if they walk in somebody else's home? 552 00:33:02,415 --> 00:33:03,495 What if someone's mean to them? 553 00:33:03,675 --> 00:33:08,655 Even your regular domestic cat has the potential to act aggressively if someone's 554 00:33:08,655 --> 00:33:10,545 mean to them, that's perfectly reasonable. 555 00:33:10,785 --> 00:33:14,475 So there's just bigger risk because they are bigger and stronger. 556 00:33:14,475 --> 00:33:17,745 So I would say not to have outside access in that way, but 557 00:33:17,775 --> 00:33:19,575 a catio, an enclosed garden. 558 00:33:19,875 --> 00:33:22,995 If that's not available, then they need high places to scale. 559 00:33:23,205 --> 00:33:26,595 You'll have to play with them for a long time to make sure you're using up that 560 00:33:26,595 --> 00:33:29,159 energy and that would be play with toys. 561 00:33:29,159 --> 00:33:32,610 Do not play with a Savannah or another hybrid with your hands, 562 00:33:32,610 --> 00:33:36,450 because if it goes wrong, that's the most severe aggression I ever see. 563 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,250 Please don't do that even from day one. 564 00:33:38,490 --> 00:33:41,550 Know what upsets them, if they don't like kids, don't let any kids in. 565 00:33:41,730 --> 00:33:44,680 If they don't like loud noises, then make allowances on fireworks night. 566 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,455 The stereotype for cats is that their low maintenance, they just live in 567 00:33:47,455 --> 00:33:49,585 your house, as long as they've got food and water, they'll be fine. 568 00:33:49,975 --> 00:33:52,555 That definitely is not the case for Savannahs and for other hybrids. 569 00:33:52,615 --> 00:33:54,685 They need a lot of understanding. 570 00:33:54,685 --> 00:33:55,765 They need sensible owners. 571 00:33:55,945 --> 00:33:57,925 They need someone to have their back. 572 00:33:57,925 --> 00:34:01,885 If you're gonna take on that commitment of having a hybrid in your home, then for as 573 00:34:01,885 --> 00:34:05,785 long as they live, you need to make sure that their needs are met 100% of the time. 574 00:34:05,785 --> 00:34:08,065 Because if they're not, where do they go? 575 00:34:08,095 --> 00:34:11,135 There's no rescue that's happy to take on a Savannah because it's 576 00:34:11,135 --> 00:34:11,965 difficult to meet their needs. 577 00:34:12,025 --> 00:34:16,424 I would go as far as to say, I don't think hybrid cats, Bengals aside, 578 00:34:16,424 --> 00:34:19,005 but other than that, I don't think we should be breeding them at all. 579 00:34:19,075 --> 00:34:23,444 I would be supporting a ban because it's just so difficult 580 00:34:23,864 --> 00:34:24,955 and the risks are so high. 581 00:34:25,005 --> 00:34:27,975 If we get it wrong, then there are big risks and consequences 582 00:34:27,975 --> 00:34:29,175 for that cat and for the people. 583 00:34:29,175 --> 00:34:31,305 So that's my feeling at least. 584 00:34:37,125 --> 00:34:41,205 Thanks for joining us on the WSAVA podcast where we are transforming 585 00:34:41,205 --> 00:34:42,975 care, one episode at a time. 586 00:34:43,725 --> 00:34:46,735 We hope today's discussion was helpful, wherever you are in the world. 587 00:34:47,545 --> 00:34:51,475 You'll find more information and further resources on the topics discussed in the 588 00:34:51,475 --> 00:34:55,315 show notes and we look forward to sharing our next conversation with you very soon.