WEBVTT 00:00:05.070 --> 00:00:08.730 Matt Abrahams: If you think about your communication over a week or even a day or 00:00:08.730 --> 00:00:14.220 even an hour, think of how many different types of virtual communication you use, 00:00:14.520 --> 00:00:19.140 texting, slacking, emails, virtual calls. 00:00:19.680 --> 00:00:23.610 We need to make sure that we are as efficient and as effective as we can 00:00:23.610 --> 00:00:26.310 be when we are communicating virtually. 00:00:27.390 --> 00:00:30.990 I'm Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at Stanford 00:00:30.990 --> 00:00:32.430 Graduate School of Business. 00:00:32.729 --> 00:00:36.510 Welcome to Think Fast, talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:37.460 --> 00:00:39.860 Today I am excited to speak with Andrew Brodsky. 00:00:40.160 --> 00:00:42.680 Andrew is an expert in workplace technology, 00:00:42.680 --> 00:00:44.510 communication, and productivity. 00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:47.870 He teaches and conducts research at the McCombs School of Business 00:00:47.870 --> 00:00:49.850 at the University of Texas, Austin. 00:00:50.330 --> 00:00:55.010 His latest book is Ping: The Secrets of Successful Virtual Communication. 00:00:55.430 --> 00:00:56.420 Welcome, Andrew. 00:00:56.480 --> 00:00:59.150 Your work is so relevant and of the moment. 00:00:59.150 --> 00:01:00.290 I appreciate you being here. 00:01:00.950 --> 00:01:02.000 Andrew Brodsky: Thanks for having me on the show. 00:01:02.060 --> 00:01:05.269 I've been a long time fan of your work, so I'm really excited getting to talk. 00:01:05.685 --> 00:01:06.555 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for that. 00:01:06.585 --> 00:01:07.605 So shall we get started? 00:01:07.815 --> 00:01:08.895 Andrew Brodsky: Yes, let's go for it. 00:01:09.285 --> 00:01:10.095 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:01:10.485 --> 00:01:14.235 So your latest book, and work, focus on virtual communication. 00:01:14.685 --> 00:01:17.835 I'm curious what counts as virtual communication for you? 00:01:17.835 --> 00:01:21.515 Is it just Zoom, Meet, or Teams, or is it something even more than that? 00:01:21.875 --> 00:01:25.619 Andrew Brodsky: For virtual communication, it's simply defined as anything that 00:01:25.619 --> 00:01:29.130 involves communicating through some kind of electronic device or computer. 00:01:29.460 --> 00:01:34.080 So that is, of course, Zoom, Teams, those video calls. 00:01:34.350 --> 00:01:37.530 But it goes all the way down to text messaging, instant messaging, 00:01:37.530 --> 00:01:42.270 email, and now phone calls are virtual because they all happen via 00:01:42.270 --> 00:01:45.009 our smartphones or voiceover IP's. 00:01:45.030 --> 00:01:47.700 So anything that happens electronically. 00:01:47.700 --> 00:01:51.990 So basically not face-to-face interactions and not snail mail, 00:01:52.020 --> 00:01:54.660 where you're writing letters and sending them via the post office. 00:01:55.259 --> 00:01:56.970 Matt Abrahams: I'm not even sure younger folks know how to 00:01:56.970 --> 00:01:58.680 do that latter part anymore. 00:01:59.250 --> 00:02:03.390 When we communicate virtually, we have choices about tools 00:02:03.390 --> 00:02:04.830 and channels, et cetera. 00:02:05.160 --> 00:02:07.890 Do you have advice and guidance for which tools are better for 00:02:07.890 --> 00:02:09.810 which certain communication goals? 00:02:09.810 --> 00:02:13.829 So do I use a text to let my boss know I'm gonna be late? 00:02:13.829 --> 00:02:15.000 Do I send an email? 00:02:15.265 --> 00:02:17.905 What's advice and guidance on these different channels? 00:02:18.355 --> 00:02:22.015 Andrew Brodsky: I wish I could say that there was just one best mode, although 00:02:22.015 --> 00:02:23.545 that would make for a very short book. 00:02:23.965 --> 00:02:29.084 The key general advice here is you wanna think about, what are the core 00:02:29.084 --> 00:02:33.075 things you're trying to do here, and what mode serves that best? 00:02:33.494 --> 00:02:36.855 For instance, if we're considering meetings versus email, are 00:02:36.855 --> 00:02:38.024 you relaying information? 00:02:38.084 --> 00:02:40.695 Do you want to have a back and forth? 00:02:40.905 --> 00:02:44.954 Once you get the basics down, you start to think more into the granularity 00:02:44.954 --> 00:02:47.894 of what you're trying to achieve, interaction, and then the dynamics 00:02:47.894 --> 00:02:49.364 that are going on in each one. 00:02:49.755 --> 00:02:51.825 For instance, let's talk about brainstorming. 00:02:52.545 --> 00:02:56.954 So brainstorming many people think is better in person. 00:02:57.045 --> 00:02:58.785 We can bounce ideas of each other. 00:02:58.785 --> 00:03:00.885 We got a nice whiteboard in front of us. 00:03:01.185 --> 00:03:05.114 But generally, what research shows is that the earlier stages of brainstorming are 00:03:05.114 --> 00:03:08.084 better done separately and electronically. 00:03:08.355 --> 00:03:09.555 And the reason is a few fold. 00:03:09.825 --> 00:03:12.495 When we're sitting in a group, only one person can talk at a time. 00:03:12.945 --> 00:03:14.505 That's productivity loss right there. 00:03:14.715 --> 00:03:19.245 If you're all trying to generate twenty ideas, it doesn't really work well in a 00:03:19.245 --> 00:03:23.865 meeting with ten people because we don't have time to say twenty ideas out loud. 00:03:24.359 --> 00:03:27.660 If you're all typing them down separately, that is much more productive. 00:03:27.870 --> 00:03:31.380 When we have a group of people staring at us, we're afraid 00:03:31.380 --> 00:03:35.609 often of saying something really non-conforming because they'll judge us. 00:03:35.970 --> 00:03:39.840 But when we're sitting behind our computer typing, that fear, that presence 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:41.209 of the other people's less salient. 00:03:41.700 --> 00:03:46.369 And lastly, when we hear an idea in person during brainstorming, our mind kind of 00:03:46.369 --> 00:03:50.780 sticks on that idea, and it's hard to come up with divergent thoughts from that. 00:03:51.380 --> 00:03:54.440 So basically, research shows that early stages of brainstorming, you 00:03:54.440 --> 00:03:59.089 get more and more novel ideas when you do it separately and virtually. 00:03:59.239 --> 00:04:03.470 But then later on when you're trying to decide an idea or tweak an idea, 00:04:03.709 --> 00:04:07.440 that's when you wanna meet as a group, because that's when you have 00:04:07.440 --> 00:04:10.290 that back and forth, that's when it's good to work off of each other. 00:04:10.859 --> 00:04:13.799 Matt Abrahams: So what I'm hearing you say is the biggest determinant 00:04:13.799 --> 00:04:17.190 of which channel you use is what you're trying to accomplish. 00:04:17.190 --> 00:04:21.029 If you're expecting some back and forth, or you really rely on somebody 00:04:21.029 --> 00:04:26.039 else's response, maybe the more interactive approaches are better. 00:04:26.045 --> 00:04:29.400 But if you're really trying to do things like ideate and brainstorm. 00:04:29.745 --> 00:04:33.165 It might make more sense to do that more isolated where you don't 00:04:33.165 --> 00:04:34.784 need that real time connection. 00:04:34.965 --> 00:04:35.474 Andrew Brodsky: Exactly. 00:04:35.474 --> 00:04:38.265 And those are some key examples of thinking about when one versus 00:04:38.295 --> 00:04:39.945 another might work better or worse. 00:04:40.365 --> 00:04:42.675 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I think so many of us just want to get the message 00:04:42.675 --> 00:04:45.675 out that we don't really think about the channel and how that channel 00:04:45.675 --> 00:04:47.145 can impact what we're trying to do. 00:04:47.145 --> 00:04:48.855 So that's a really key bit of advice. 00:04:49.455 --> 00:04:53.205 Your new book has the subtitle, The Secrets of Successful 00:04:53.205 --> 00:04:54.675 Virtual Communication. 00:04:54.855 --> 00:04:57.705 So I gotta ask, what are some of these secrets? 00:04:57.705 --> 00:04:58.425 Let us in. 00:04:58.860 --> 00:05:03.240 Andrew Brodsky: When it comes to books on business or improvement, I really like 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:06.120 when there's a framework to organize all this stuff 'cause it helps me remember it. 00:05:06.180 --> 00:05:09.390 So I think the best answer for this is to think about the framework that 00:05:09.390 --> 00:05:12.690 I introduced in the book, which is the Ping framework, which should be easy to 00:05:12.690 --> 00:05:13.920 remember, 'cause the book's titled Ping. 00:05:14.280 --> 00:05:18.300 The Ping framework stands for, P, perspective taken. 00:05:18.720 --> 00:05:22.090 And that's the idea that when you're interacting virtually you're 00:05:22.090 --> 00:05:24.250 often much more self-focused. 00:05:24.490 --> 00:05:27.760 So whether you're just looking at text on a screen, or even if you're 00:05:27.760 --> 00:05:30.820 doing video, there's just a little square of the person you're looking 00:05:30.820 --> 00:05:33.849 at, and it's not the same as when they're standing right in front of you. 00:05:33.969 --> 00:05:37.870 So we end up looking at things from our own perspective, and we tend to be much 00:05:37.870 --> 00:05:41.680 more overconfident than we should be about our communication because we're not 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:44.919 taking the other person's perspective and realizing that it's different than us. 00:05:44.919 --> 00:05:46.450 They might read our emotions different. 00:05:46.750 --> 00:05:52.260 I is initiative, so it's thinking about what is missing from a given 00:05:52.260 --> 00:05:54.400 mode and how can I edit back in? 00:05:55.514 --> 00:05:59.804 One of the examples that I often talk about with my students and executives 00:06:00.074 --> 00:06:02.564 is about when it comes to small talk. 00:06:02.924 --> 00:06:05.954 So I know it's been a topic on your show previously, but the 00:06:05.954 --> 00:06:09.374 thing about small talk, many people hate it, for good reason. 00:06:09.584 --> 00:06:10.394 It takes up time. 00:06:10.394 --> 00:06:11.655 So it's a productivity waste. 00:06:12.104 --> 00:06:16.484 But on the other side of that, small talk is useful for building trust. 00:06:16.994 --> 00:06:21.364 We trust what we know, we trust who we know, and it creates warmth. 00:06:21.704 --> 00:06:26.144 Research has found that, for instance, in negotiation studies, when they had 00:06:26.144 --> 00:06:30.194 participants negotiate over text-based communication, there was much less small 00:06:30.194 --> 00:06:32.084 talk than when there was in person. 00:06:32.324 --> 00:06:35.864 So what they did is they had some of those participants who are engaging in 00:06:35.864 --> 00:06:40.064 a text-based negotiation have a quick phone call where they just schmoozed 00:06:40.094 --> 00:06:43.814 for a few minutes and then they went to text-based communication and negotiate. 00:06:44.354 --> 00:06:47.924 And those negotiators ended up doing a whole lot better than those who 00:06:47.924 --> 00:06:49.724 didn't engage in schmoozing beforehand. 00:06:49.724 --> 00:06:53.894 So taking that initiative just to have a short phone call before some intense 00:06:53.894 --> 00:06:55.904 interaction can be really useful. 00:06:56.174 --> 00:07:01.124 Then N, nonverbal, that's the idea that we send a lot of different 00:07:01.124 --> 00:07:04.574 nonverbal behavior over virtual communication than we do in person, 00:07:04.964 --> 00:07:06.554 and it's important to be aware of that. 00:07:06.884 --> 00:07:11.024 Typos can send emotion, time of day can send singles of power. 00:07:11.384 --> 00:07:13.814 There's a whole bunch of different things that happen virtually 00:07:13.814 --> 00:07:15.524 that just don't happen in person. 00:07:15.854 --> 00:07:18.764 And those are really key for making sure that our messages 00:07:18.764 --> 00:07:20.324 are interpreted as we intend. 00:07:21.044 --> 00:07:23.684 And then lastly is G, for goals. 00:07:23.984 --> 00:07:25.184 There's not one best mode. 00:07:25.514 --> 00:07:29.204 It depends on what your goal is in a situation, for example, cameras 00:07:29.204 --> 00:07:30.614 on versus cameras off calls. 00:07:31.094 --> 00:07:33.464 The idea here is people have strong preferences on it. 00:07:34.049 --> 00:07:37.169 But research shows that it depends what your goal is here. 00:07:37.739 --> 00:07:41.279 So if your goal is you wanna make a strong impression for someone you don't know, 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:45.449 well, you wanna show you're engaged, video on is really good for that. 00:07:46.379 --> 00:07:50.999 But if you are trying to save energy, if you're trying to focus, 00:07:51.329 --> 00:07:55.139 video off is better because research has evidence showing Zoom fatigue 00:07:55.259 --> 00:07:56.699 or video conferencing fatigue. 00:07:57.179 --> 00:08:02.249 This idea that being on camera is really exhausting 'cause we're staring at 00:08:02.249 --> 00:08:04.649 ourselves, analyzing nonverbal behavior. 00:08:04.919 --> 00:08:07.139 And there are all these things that happen when we're not in person that 00:08:07.139 --> 00:08:09.119 can drain energy from interactions. 00:08:09.539 --> 00:08:12.839 So if it's a new interaction, maybe videos on or better. 00:08:13.434 --> 00:08:17.694 But if it is someone you know really well, strong impressions already built, 00:08:17.754 --> 00:08:21.354 they know you're gonna be engaged, then you might as well turn that video off 00:08:21.414 --> 00:08:22.974 because it'll help you to save energy. 00:08:23.394 --> 00:08:27.084 Bringing it all together, the Ping framework P, perspective taking, I, 00:08:27.084 --> 00:08:29.934 initiative, N, nonverbal, G, goals. 00:08:30.114 --> 00:08:32.754 Throughout my book, I tie each of the recommendations into 00:08:32.754 --> 00:08:35.905 that framework to help make it more memorable and more usable. 00:08:36.534 --> 00:08:39.264 Matt Abrahams: I love a good framework and I love one that I can 00:08:39.264 --> 00:08:41.244 remember, and Ping is very memorable. 00:08:41.640 --> 00:08:44.699 You spend in your book a lot of time talking about richness. 00:08:44.699 --> 00:08:48.719 What does richness mean in the context of communication and why 00:08:48.719 --> 00:08:50.160 should we be concerned about it? 00:08:50.699 --> 00:08:55.560 Andrew Brodsky: Richness is this idea about how similar is a mode 00:08:55.560 --> 00:08:59.550 to face-to-face interactions, and that's generally how it's defined. 00:09:00.134 --> 00:09:03.614 But you can't think about it as a single dimension. 00:09:03.854 --> 00:09:06.614 There are different components that make up richness. 00:09:06.944 --> 00:09:11.444 The two main ones are synchronicity, whether it's real 00:09:11.444 --> 00:09:14.474 time or not, and cue variety. 00:09:14.684 --> 00:09:18.464 How similar are the degree of cues or nonverbal behaviors 00:09:18.464 --> 00:09:19.754 to those that are in person? 00:09:20.174 --> 00:09:24.584 And just because two modes seem similar in one dimension, doesn't mean they aren't. 00:09:24.734 --> 00:09:29.249 For instance, email and instant message, both have a 00:09:29.249 --> 00:09:30.684 similar type of cues available. 00:09:31.395 --> 00:09:34.694 You can use emoticons, texts, but they different in terms of 00:09:34.694 --> 00:09:38.145 expected synchronicity, people tend to respond to instant messages 00:09:38.145 --> 00:09:40.125 quicker, hence instant messages. 00:09:40.454 --> 00:09:46.545 But the thing is, even small differences on richness have a huge impact on 00:09:46.545 --> 00:09:48.045 the outcomes of our interactions. 00:09:48.464 --> 00:09:53.834 Thinking about video calls and in-person interactions, fairly similar, 00:09:53.865 --> 00:09:57.285 except you can't see the bottom half of the person, which in many video 00:09:57.285 --> 00:09:58.964 meetings is probably a good thing. 00:09:59.520 --> 00:10:06.000 What also happens is with video calls, there's a very slight lag due to data 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:07.980 transfer speeds over the internet. 00:10:08.160 --> 00:10:11.010 Whereas in person, there's no lag 'cause you're just talking to each other. 00:10:11.730 --> 00:10:16.800 Some studies have found that even that slight lag in video calls can make 00:10:16.800 --> 00:10:19.109 conversations run a little more awkwardly. 00:10:19.349 --> 00:10:23.430 There can be more silences, we can interrupt each other more because 00:10:23.489 --> 00:10:25.949 we're both waiting for the other person to finish, or we thought 00:10:25.949 --> 00:10:27.209 they finished but they didn't. 00:10:27.510 --> 00:10:31.739 Even these lags in the milliseconds can end up changing the conversational 00:10:31.739 --> 00:10:35.369 dynamics, and there's a variety of other ways that richness 00:10:35.369 --> 00:10:37.199 also plays into interactions. 00:10:37.199 --> 00:10:42.614 As an example, when we're interacting virtually, it can feel awkward to 00:10:42.614 --> 00:10:44.504 use richer modes of communication. 00:10:45.014 --> 00:10:49.634 So if you're reaching out to help someone or to reconnect with an old colleague, 00:10:49.724 --> 00:10:53.504 there's this idea that people would just rather do it via email, and the research 00:10:53.504 --> 00:10:55.124 shows email just feels less awkward. 00:10:55.604 --> 00:11:00.344 What authors who studied this found is that richer modes like telephone 00:11:00.374 --> 00:11:03.689 or video end up being more effective. 00:11:03.689 --> 00:11:07.079 It builds trust more 'cause it's richer, and then when participants 00:11:07.079 --> 00:11:12.839 rated it after the fact, they note that it's not actually any more awkward. 00:11:13.199 --> 00:11:16.739 So we think it's gonna be awkward before the fact to move from email to 00:11:16.739 --> 00:11:20.189 just calling someone or having a video meeting, but in reality, it works out 00:11:20.189 --> 00:11:22.109 better and it's not any less awkward. 00:11:22.229 --> 00:11:25.949 That said, especially in the work context, try and proceed a call 00:11:25.949 --> 00:11:27.660 with an instant message or email. 00:11:27.870 --> 00:11:30.930 That way you're not interrupting whatever the other person is doing, 00:11:31.170 --> 00:11:34.349 so you could still get the benefits of that mode without necessarily having 00:11:34.349 --> 00:11:38.250 the interruptive effect of forcing them to talk whenever you decide. 00:11:38.834 --> 00:11:42.254 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for defining richness and for giving some useful 00:11:42.254 --> 00:11:46.874 examples and insight into what it is and how we can consider using it. 00:11:47.564 --> 00:11:51.584 I wanna dive deeper into what you just said about alerting people 00:11:51.584 --> 00:11:52.964 in advance of reaching out. 00:11:53.324 --> 00:11:57.180 In your Ping model, the nonverbal piece, you've got a lot of ways 00:11:57.180 --> 00:11:59.969 of looking at nonverbal that I don't think many of us think of. 00:12:00.180 --> 00:12:04.349 You even use the example of the time of day you set a meeting can 00:12:04.349 --> 00:12:06.209 be a way of establishing power. 00:12:06.660 --> 00:12:10.349 Can you share your way of looking at nonverbal 00:12:10.349 --> 00:12:12.030 communication when we're virtual? 00:12:12.150 --> 00:12:14.879 Most of us who study nonverbal communication think about what you do 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:19.050 with your body and your voice, but there's also the use of time, the use of space. 00:12:19.349 --> 00:12:21.420 Can you share some of your thoughts on that? 00:12:21.739 --> 00:12:25.395 Andrew Brodsky: For nonverbal communication, one of the most illustrated 00:12:25.395 --> 00:12:29.954 examples to think about this is one that Hayley Blunden from American 00:12:29.954 --> 00:12:35.145 University actually led a research project with me on, and its on email typos. 00:12:35.354 --> 00:12:38.354 In this set of studies, we've had three findings. 00:12:38.864 --> 00:12:42.435 First, email typos generally make you look less intelligent. 00:12:43.305 --> 00:12:47.895 The second finding was that email typos can relay emotion. 00:12:48.464 --> 00:12:52.005 It's like putting your fist up in the air, where your fist up in the air can make 00:12:52.005 --> 00:12:56.084 you seem happier or more proud or more excited, but it depends on the context. 00:12:56.714 --> 00:13:01.245 So in angry emails, typos made you seem angrier and happy emails, 00:13:01.245 --> 00:13:02.204 they made you seem happier. 00:13:02.625 --> 00:13:07.755 And then we had a third finding, which was in the context of emotional 00:13:07.755 --> 00:13:12.344 messages, there was a decreased penalty on intelligence for typos. 00:13:12.615 --> 00:13:15.765 So put simply, typos make us look less intelligent. 00:13:16.185 --> 00:13:20.564 But if there's another reason, such as emotion, the other person says, 00:13:20.655 --> 00:13:22.155 oh, it's because they're emotional. 00:13:22.395 --> 00:13:23.834 This matches other research. 00:13:23.834 --> 00:13:27.704 Studies show that having sent from my iPhone in your email signature 00:13:27.915 --> 00:13:30.824 decreases the penalty of typos 'cause they assume it's sent from your iPhone. 00:13:31.185 --> 00:13:35.655 Knowing someone's from a different culture reduces the penalty for intelligence 00:13:35.655 --> 00:13:39.854 for grammar errors because English might not be their first language. 00:13:40.395 --> 00:13:45.209 So the key kind of theory behind all of this is this idea that 00:13:45.479 --> 00:13:48.869 in virtual communication there's often missing information. 00:13:49.319 --> 00:13:53.879 As recipients of it we're searching for reasons for this missing information. 00:13:54.510 --> 00:13:56.939 Whatever is there, is what we attach it to. 00:13:57.180 --> 00:14:02.040 It's clear the person was emotional or rushed or whatever else, we 00:14:02.040 --> 00:14:04.619 use that information to fill in the gaps in our understanding 00:14:04.619 --> 00:14:06.209 and assume it's because of that. 00:14:06.719 --> 00:14:10.619 The problem becomes that the person on the recipient side who's making these 00:14:10.619 --> 00:14:13.229 guesses is often guessing incorrectly. 00:14:13.665 --> 00:14:19.724 So realizing how other people interpret our messages and making sure we add in 00:14:19.724 --> 00:14:23.655 extra information to make sure they don't have to fill in those gaps can be one 00:14:23.655 --> 00:14:24.910 of the most useful things that you did. 00:14:25.560 --> 00:14:26.189 Matt Abrahams: Wow. 00:14:26.249 --> 00:14:30.449 That's a lesson in attribution theory, but also in some practical things. 00:14:30.749 --> 00:14:33.629 You've just totally changed my perspective on something. 00:14:34.020 --> 00:14:39.509 One of the first things I do when I upgrade my phone is I remove the automatic 00:14:39.509 --> 00:14:41.489 signature that says, sent from iPhone. 00:14:41.790 --> 00:14:45.449 Because I felt like that was not useful information. 00:14:45.780 --> 00:14:49.410 But based on what you've just said, maybe what I should do is change it to say, 00:14:49.650 --> 00:14:54.240 sent from iPhone while likely rushing, so that everybody who gets one of my 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.410 typos attributes it to that and not to the fact that I'm not as intelligent. 00:14:58.709 --> 00:15:01.740 Andrew Brodsky: It depends if your goal there is to typos or not, 'cause that 00:15:01.740 --> 00:15:04.380 also is sending other information as well. 00:15:04.589 --> 00:15:07.139 You didn't feel the need to sit down at your computer to email them. 00:15:07.199 --> 00:15:10.019 Maybe sometimes it's a good signal that you're sending it from the go. 00:15:10.259 --> 00:15:13.289 Maybe other times that's a bad signal, and that could be seen 00:15:13.289 --> 00:15:14.909 as a power play potentially. 00:15:14.909 --> 00:15:18.929 So you do have to be wary of what other information you're sending from that. 00:15:18.929 --> 00:15:20.759 But with typos, it helps. 00:15:21.059 --> 00:15:22.469 With other things, it may not. 00:15:22.859 --> 00:15:25.619 Matt Abrahams: And that's that nonverbal piece I was thinking about. 00:15:25.619 --> 00:15:30.179 So people are reading into, oh, he just sent me a text. 00:15:30.584 --> 00:15:32.925 She sent me an email about that. 00:15:33.165 --> 00:15:35.114 Maybe there's some meaning behind it. 00:15:35.114 --> 00:15:40.094 Maybe she was more thoughtful than, and so not only do we make choices 00:15:40.214 --> 00:15:43.124 for ourselves, but we have to think about the impact of the choice of 00:15:43.124 --> 00:15:46.094 channel, what message is that sending? 00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:49.199 Andrew, this has been a fantastic conversation. 00:15:49.199 --> 00:15:52.890 I, I am certainly considering changing a lot of my behaviors 00:15:52.890 --> 00:15:53.939 based on what we've said. 00:15:54.390 --> 00:15:57.209 Before we end, I like to ask all my guests three questions. 00:15:57.209 --> 00:15:59.759 One, I make up for you, and the other two are similar for everyone. 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:00.479 Are you up for that? 00:16:00.540 --> 00:16:01.680 Andrew Brodsky: Yep, definitely. 00:16:01.890 --> 00:16:02.550 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:16:02.550 --> 00:16:05.910 So not everybody has the benefit of actually seeing 00:16:05.910 --> 00:16:07.560 you as I do as we're speaking. 00:16:07.650 --> 00:16:11.280 What's your advice and guidance on what we do with what's behind us 00:16:11.280 --> 00:16:13.109 when we're virtually communicating? 00:16:13.109 --> 00:16:15.119 Are there some best practices we should follow? 00:16:16.619 --> 00:16:19.260 Andrew Brodsky: The evidence when it comes to video backgrounds or how you look 00:16:19.260 --> 00:16:22.050 on video does show that they do matter. 00:16:22.290 --> 00:16:26.400 Having good lighting, having a good camera, and in terms of what's 00:16:26.400 --> 00:16:30.839 behind you, so there's been some studies on the virtual backgrounds 00:16:30.930 --> 00:16:35.550 and they show that having virtual background over bookshelf or plants 00:16:35.579 --> 00:16:37.260 tend to be seen as most professional. 00:16:37.650 --> 00:16:42.089 Blurred is somewhere in the middle, and then the novelty ones, an example I 00:16:42.089 --> 00:16:45.930 used in the study was a walrus on ice, were seen as the least professional. 00:16:45.990 --> 00:16:49.860 So you wanna use some common sense if you're using a virtual background, but 00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:54.569 then there's another set of studies about what shows in your actual background. 00:16:54.944 --> 00:16:59.055 And what they've found is that when there are things that show 00:16:59.114 --> 00:17:02.504 who you are, so you wanna of course have the professional stuff. 00:17:02.504 --> 00:17:03.944 So bookshelf is always good. 00:17:04.274 --> 00:17:05.474 Maybe some plants. 00:17:05.594 --> 00:17:09.375 So in my case, a picture of my dogs and a couple other little 00:17:09.375 --> 00:17:13.484 tidbits about me can be useful for creating some social cohesion. 00:17:13.935 --> 00:17:17.655 An example in the study they had things that showed people were parents, number 00:17:17.655 --> 00:17:21.444 one dad mug, and they found that for other people who were parents, they 00:17:21.464 --> 00:17:23.385 felt they could trust that person more. 00:17:23.969 --> 00:17:27.509 So having those opportunities to potentially have conversations to show a 00:17:27.509 --> 00:17:32.249 window into who you are, while remaining professional, can be incredibly helpful. 00:17:33.689 --> 00:17:38.429 Matt Abrahams: So the fact that I have a Lego flower that I made behind me gives 00:17:38.429 --> 00:17:40.439 some insight into something about me. 00:17:40.469 --> 00:17:41.729 I'll take that as a positive. 00:17:42.059 --> 00:17:44.909 The one thing I want to advise people against, and I assume you would agree 00:17:44.909 --> 00:17:47.220 with this, is you need to be authentic. 00:17:47.280 --> 00:17:49.980 I can imagine somebody hearing what you just said and said, oh, I'm gonna 00:17:49.980 --> 00:17:53.250 manipulate by putting a number one dad mug and I don't have any kids. 00:17:53.250 --> 00:17:57.540 We need to be authentic because just like you mentioned around AI, that 00:17:57.540 --> 00:18:01.290 if the language you use influences how people see you, if somebody were 00:18:01.290 --> 00:18:04.140 to find out that you're not telling the truth, that would be a problem. 00:18:04.410 --> 00:18:05.370 Andrew Brodsky: Exactly. 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:09.060 And I have some research to it in virtuality and authenticity, and 00:18:09.060 --> 00:18:12.120 it's a major factor that drives satisfaction of the other party. 00:18:12.600 --> 00:18:17.189 So it's not just being authentic what you say or do, but also being seen as 00:18:17.189 --> 00:18:21.750 choosing the right mode, making sure that you don't have unintentional 00:18:21.750 --> 00:18:23.850 nonverbal behavior leaking through. 00:18:24.210 --> 00:18:27.929 When video calls, for instance, people might see that we're trying to be 00:18:27.929 --> 00:18:30.629 happy for them, but we're actually not, because maybe something happened 00:18:30.629 --> 00:18:32.070 earlier in our day that's really bad. 00:18:32.445 --> 00:18:36.495 So authenticity is a topic that is not just relevant for in person, but 00:18:36.525 --> 00:18:40.095 is incredibly relevant to virtual interactions, especially because 00:18:40.095 --> 00:18:41.805 the person can't physically see you. 00:18:42.015 --> 00:18:45.670 So they're making a lot of assessments of authenticity to fill in those gaps. 00:18:47.699 --> 00:18:50.159 Matt Abrahams: Really, I wanna put an exclamation and point. 00:18:50.159 --> 00:18:53.279 Authenticity is so important in all communication, and what I'm 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:56.340 hearing you say is, in virtual communication it's even more important. 00:18:57.299 --> 00:18:58.559 Let me ask question number two. 00:18:58.559 --> 00:18:59.850 I'll be curious to hear your answer. 00:18:59.850 --> 00:19:02.669 Who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:19:03.600 --> 00:19:05.574 Andrew Brodsky: I'm guessing there may have been a chance you would've gotten 00:19:05.574 --> 00:19:09.934 this answer before because he's many peoples, but for me it's Adam Grant. 00:19:10.844 --> 00:19:13.754 I took his first class that he taught at Wharton. 00:19:14.144 --> 00:19:17.745 It was just inspirational, the degree to which he motivated students. 00:19:18.134 --> 00:19:21.934 It was one of the driving factors that drove me to getting a PhD and, and 00:19:21.934 --> 00:19:25.695 coming into academia was just seeing the impact he had on students and how 00:19:25.695 --> 00:19:30.915 he was able to just draw everyone into a topic that many people came in thinking 00:19:30.915 --> 00:19:32.324 wasn't gonna be that interesting. 00:19:32.745 --> 00:19:36.614 Matt Abrahams: So this notion of your passion and connecting 00:19:36.614 --> 00:19:39.044 that and, and sharing that and making it relevant to others. 00:19:39.134 --> 00:19:39.975 Final question. 00:19:40.919 --> 00:19:46.020 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:19:47.280 --> 00:19:50.294 Andrew Brodsky: For a successful communication, I recommend 00:19:50.294 --> 00:19:55.274 three things that start with pausing and taking a breath. 00:19:55.634 --> 00:19:59.264 We're overloaded by communication, especially virtual communication. 00:19:59.264 --> 00:20:01.094 We've got full inboxes. 00:20:01.334 --> 00:20:07.064 We've got a back-to-back video meetings, and it's so easy to just keep on 00:20:07.064 --> 00:20:09.074 going and not take a second to pause. 00:20:09.465 --> 00:20:14.594 And step two is consider if what you're doing is actually the best. 00:20:14.999 --> 00:20:19.080 We tend to follow this trap of the default bias, which is this idea that 00:20:19.320 --> 00:20:22.350 we just do whatever we've normally done or what's right in front of us. 00:20:22.560 --> 00:20:26.159 So if we always have a meeting for X, we continue to have a meeting for X. 00:20:26.280 --> 00:20:30.149 Or if we have an email for Y, we give an email for Y. Or if the conversation 00:20:30.149 --> 00:20:34.499 is already happening in email, we don't take the initiative to say, hey, 00:20:34.499 --> 00:20:35.939 let's switch this to a phone call. 00:20:35.939 --> 00:20:37.139 I think that'd be more productive. 00:20:37.995 --> 00:20:41.715 And so actually getting out of that default mindset can be incredibly 00:20:41.715 --> 00:20:46.274 helpful for improving productivity, your relationships, and your overall wellbeing. 00:20:46.544 --> 00:20:50.054 'Cause you may find that you decrease your communication load by 00:20:50.054 --> 00:20:54.044 being thoughtful about what's the most productive mode and when, as 00:20:54.044 --> 00:20:55.364 opposed to just going with the flow. 00:20:55.904 --> 00:20:58.394 And lastly, my third ingredient is keep learning. 00:20:59.009 --> 00:21:02.219 Especially when it comes to technology and communication technology, 00:21:02.459 --> 00:21:04.079 there's new advances every day. 00:21:04.259 --> 00:21:06.419 People are changing how they use things. 00:21:06.629 --> 00:21:11.219 So keeping up with the research, the science, and understanding what are the 00:21:11.219 --> 00:21:14.939 best strategies for what, how is that changing, can be one of the best things 00:21:14.939 --> 00:21:19.049 that you can do because communication technology is such a dynamic landscape. 00:21:21.059 --> 00:21:22.769 Matt Abrahams: I really like those three things. 00:21:22.889 --> 00:21:26.969 Uh, I'm gonna take them in reverse order, staying up to date, and really 00:21:27.780 --> 00:21:31.980 challenging yourself to explore and learn the new technology makes a big difference. 00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:34.890 There are things that, as you said, are getting better all the time. 00:21:34.890 --> 00:21:38.190 I think about when we all first went to virtual and where we are 00:21:38.190 --> 00:21:41.910 today, not just in our comfort level with it, but just what we can do. 00:21:42.420 --> 00:21:45.120 I like to talk about turning habits into choices. 00:21:45.360 --> 00:21:49.379 Many of us communicate in that default mode and taking the time to make a 00:21:49.379 --> 00:21:53.070 conscious choice rather than just do what you've always done might make the 00:21:53.070 --> 00:21:54.960 communication better and your life easier. 00:21:55.410 --> 00:21:57.090 And then finally, taking a pause. 00:21:58.169 --> 00:22:02.370 We are often rushing in all of our communication and taking that beat, taking 00:22:02.370 --> 00:22:04.979 that moment can really make a difference. 00:22:05.249 --> 00:22:08.519 And if we do it in the presence of others to show that we're listening or 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:11.370 to show that we're being thoughtful, it can have an added benefit. 00:22:11.999 --> 00:22:14.639 Andrew, this has been a great conversation. 00:22:14.669 --> 00:22:20.340 You shared so many useful tips and helped me, and I hope everybody listening, think 00:22:20.550 --> 00:22:25.455 a little bit differently about how we show up when we communicate virtually and 00:22:25.455 --> 00:22:27.615 what tools and channels we choose to use. 00:22:27.825 --> 00:22:28.605 Thank you so much. 00:22:29.024 --> 00:22:29.805 Andrew Brodsky: Thanks for having me on. 00:22:29.805 --> 00:22:30.555 I appreciate it. 00:22:32.865 --> 00:22:35.145 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for this episode of 00:22:35.145 --> 00:22:37.575 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:22:37.935 --> 00:22:40.875 To learn more about virtual communication best practices, please 00:22:40.875 --> 00:22:46.034 listen to episode 53 with Jonathan Levav and episode 31 with me. 00:22:46.790 --> 00:22:50.720 This episode was produced by Ryan Campos and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:22:50.990 --> 00:22:52.550 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:22:52.700 --> 00:22:54.860 With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:22:55.280 --> 00:22:58.370 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:22:58.550 --> 00:23:00.530 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:23:00.740 --> 00:23:05.510 Also, follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram, and check out FasterSmarter.io for 00:23:05.510 --> 00:23:09.470 deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. 00:23:10.004 --> 00:23:13.604 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:23:13.814 --> 00:23:19.624 Ask Matt Anythings and much more at FasterSmarter.io/premium.