[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee 

[00:00:14] Dan: Oh my word. In my old age, Pia, I've gotta tell you. Uh, well, I'm not that old I guess, but as, as, as I mature into a wonderful wine, and it may be covid as well a little bit, but I've become a bit interested in birdsong. Bird song. Yeah, so my rock and roll lifestyle continues, but I was out in the garden today, beautiful sunshine and in, in the creeper on the house a Robin was singing Its little heart out. it was 

[00:00:38] Pia: And you just know spring is

[00:00:40] Dan: Spring is coming and it, yeah, absolutely. He 

[00:00:42] Pia: just Lala Lala

[00:00:44] Dan: Exactly. He was loving it, loving it. So I'm feeling very spring is sprung here. And um, 

[00:00:50] Pia: beautiful. I know exactly that 

[00:00:52] Dan: You know, the one, well an hour later it was, it was snowing, but it did stop again. But either way. But the Robin was having a lovely moment and he gave me one as well. So, 

[00:01:01] Pia: that's a good segue because Robin is a bit about our, our Guest. Good lord. I dunno how you managed to do that, but

[00:01:08] Dan: Uh, that is, that is literally a complete, I can't believe you spotted that. I, yeah, you, full marks 10 outta 10 Pierre for that. Yeah. So our Guest, Robin Hutchinson, I'm so excited to have him on the show because, I met Robin. 20 years ago when I was a director of marketing, and I had, I held all the, all our budget and we had a meeting with hi with Robin, um, who was the chief fundraiser for Guide Dogs for the Blind, it was a really big charity in the UK, and with our CEO. And it was sort of one of these meetings where it was sort of quite, he had to pitch and we had to be very serious and sort of very, you know, is this gonna be good value? Are we going to be able to blob, we can use it for promotion and things? And we broke the coffee and Robin lent over to me and said, I think it's going rather well, don't you? Like that. And I just thought this, that is perfect because it just, that absurdity the, the sort of, just the pure. Inappropriately, brilliantly appropriate wackiness was it just, it just tickled me. And I was giggling and giggling in that meeting after that.

[00:02:14] So, um, and I thought, well, we have to, we have to do this. And he was a wonderful partner, always chewed his word and, uh, it was a great partnership that we have with him. But, um, anyway, we'll hear his story now, which is, um, a many splendid thing and really, Far more interesting even than his very interesting persona might, might portray. So, um, let's go and hear from Robin now. I bet you card. I bet you card. Let's hear from this Robin. Having heard from the other Robin earlier.

[00:02:42] 

[00:02:46] Dan: Robin, a really warm welcome to the show. Thank you so much for, for coming on to We Not Me.

[00:02:51] Robbie: My pleasure, a real pleasure.

[00:02:53] Dan: So Robin, we're gonna start by torturing you with the conversation starter card. So I'm actually going to pick one at random. I'm gonna do something a bit different. This, I'm gonna cut the pack.

[00:03:01] okay. You would never guess, but. I It's a red card. You'd never guess, but I dot, dot, dot.

[00:03:07] Robbie: Yeah, that's a really, God, that's horrible. You'd never guessed I, um, failed at skiing once. Nearly off the edge of a mountain by accident. 

[00:03:17] Dan: Did you manage to avoid injury or was that,

[00:03:20] Robbie: Yeah, I steered into a fence. It was my very first time at skiing. I'd been taken up by a chum and, uh, he was explain, I mean, classically he was explaining all the things you shouldn't do. I was bored very quickly and just set off on what the slope he'd advised me Don't go down that slope, we'll start with a gentle one. And I just couldn't control myself and fell forward, shoveling snow into my mouth. Unfortunately, managed to see that the edge was coming and steer my hands straight into.

[00:03:48] Dan: I, I, I get, I, I have an idea that that metaphor will, um, serve us well in the rest of the conversation. Yeah. So,

[00:03:57] Pia: a mouthful of snow. So, Robin, you and I haven't met and, and I'd love to know a little bit about you. So just take, take us a little bit into your world and, and tell us how you got to who you are today.

[00:04:11] Robbie: Yeah. Um, so. I regard myself as a remarkably lucky human being, and that opportunities come my way. And, you know, there's a whole discussion around, you know, how does luck happen? I, I don't believe you can take luck. I think that's, uh, you know, I think you can put yourself in situations where things will happen. But I think that, you know, one has to be incredibly conscious of the fact that I've been fortunate, lucky that I was born into a good family, into a good part of the world with a good education and all of those things I contributed nothing to. I mean, that was a matter of geography and parenting.

[00:04:50] Um, but s since then, just weird things happened to me. And I, I, there's a part of my brain that's rewired badly. And in as much as generally speaking, as you get older, the ability to say no, get stronger. Experience goes Done that before and it was a big error. You should say no in this situation. And my brain is working hard at that while my mouth and my stomach go, yeah. OK. And as a result of that, my life continually is reinventing itself. And at any point when somebody says, I mean, my kids of which there are five, hate it. If somebody says, what does your dad do? Because they have to go, I've no idea. And the reality is I have to say that still. What is it you do?

[00:05:34] Um, I think. The best dis William Blake said, you know, do you wake each morning with your fingers on fire for the tasks that lie ahead? And I think that's the life. If we are lucky, we can have that. You wake up and there is something in the day that you can go. Yeah. It doesn't mean every day is wonderful and every day is without challenge and every day is brilliant. What it does mean is that actually there are things in your life that tell you, you are excited because, and I just seem to have this real fortune that I can make those things happen. So a lot of what I do is imagine an ideas and go, let's do it. And as a great friend says, the weird bit for you, Robin, is you think of stupid things and then you do them. Most people will separate the two out. That's really stupid idea. But I'm never gonna do it. Or I'm really good at doing things, but I never think of anything and I'm kinda like, everybody this.

[00:06:24] And I am a magpie. There's no two ways about it. You know, I mean, anybody who sits in a team meeting with me or any will know that I've got extremely low board threshold and people have gotta work out how to present something to me in the shortest space possible while juggling and fire eating. Um, and I'm quite likely halfway through to go, oh, I know what we could do and it'll be nothing related to anything

[00:06:47] Dan: your brain's been going.

[00:06:48] Robbie: yeah. OK, Robin, let's, let's wait that out and then we'll get back to what we're supposed to be talking about.

[00:06:54] Dan: So, um, what do your children's dad, what, what does your children's dad do? 

[00:07:00] Robbie: So. I, uh, along with some others started a community interest and not for profit organization called the Community Brain in 2010. And that was started on a very basic principle. Everybody is brilliant if they're given the help and support to be brilliant. And the saddest thing that I witness in lives are people living gray existence.

[00:07:25] I have seen talented, enthusiastic individuals lose those passions because of situation. And some of that situation let's, you know, separate out. Some of that is life. Some of it like at the moment can be cost of living, all sorts of bits and pieces. But in a work environment, I witness it more often than not because people are overmanaged. And I was thinking it's quite interesting that if you, if you speak with your hands, and I tend to quite a lot, if you use the word manage, you automatically do a, I can compress this, I can manage it. And I think it's really sad to see people who, who's who who've lost that drive and that energy. And what we do is in our language is create playgrounds for adults. How do we make those spaces, those moments that allow people to reconnect with joy and with passion?

[00:08:17] When you are a kid, I suspect every one of us at some point in a playground, put our coat over our head and ran thinking we could fly. And I think our job is to give people back that feeling. You won't physically leave the ground, but you can in your head soar. And what we witness is people getting engaged and involved with projects and with things, and they'll fly. They'll show their best, they'll become these people.

[00:08:44] And of course that then impacts on the way they go back into the work environment, the family environment, cuz nobody can behave well into their best if they're unhappy. And you know, we've always said, you know, if you look at the photographs of our events and things, people are laughing. And in a moment of laughter, people can change their minds. Nobody's ever changed their minds with their arms folded. If you're you sit a meeting and they're like, you've got a problem. People are in the wrong state. So you've got to get people into a place of, okay, I can relax. And then it's not forcing people, people will go as far as they want to go, but sometimes you've gotta be there to open the door and just say, I know it's nerve-wracking, but do step out.

[00:09:29] So at the moment, we are involved in so many different things across. We're working with Southwestern Railways and National Rail on reimagining the potential role of stations in the community. You know, actually could, given what Covid has done and a change in the working patterns, actually can stations be these fulcrums and moments of community and business activism? So we've got projects where we're looking at, um, food supply and how we can, we've started two community kitchens. We've got the Farm of Futures, which is how you farm ideas out of communities and support them in delivering. Uh, we have the Museum of Futures and the music. Basically, we come up with stupid names and work backwards.

[00:10:12] Dan: So, so tell, tell us about the, um, the, the Lost Gloves of Seething and the, and Ski Sunday. These are the two in my mind that I've, one of which I've participated in.

[00:10:25] Robbie: Uh, so the Lost Gloves of Seething was a very, very simple premise which was Anne, who is the most wonderful person in my life. And I, you know, in another life I must have been the most beautiful human being cuz I've ended up with Anne in this one. Um, and we were out one day and there was just a glove on the floor and I just said, you know, I wonder how many people lose a glove? And again, as most people would go, and now we'll move on.

[00:10:47] and 

[00:10:48] Dan: yes. Move on to something

[00:10:49] Robbie: Yeah, I'm gonna take a photo of it and I'm gonna put it up on Facebook and say, if you see a glove, let me know. And the first time it lasted about six months. People going, I've seen a glove. I've seen a glove. And these. And I always start GloveWatch, the Lost Gloves of Seething, and we will record each year between the 1st of December and the 31st of January, how many gloves people spot all around the world. And we get them from Australia and we get them from America and we get them from Europe. Tom Hanks took part one year. But we, this year I think we got a new record of over 2000 lost gloves found, and we put it into a big sort of picture. It is purely a piece of nonsense, but what's amazing is the way. Decide to play along and the impact it has people saying it gives me a reason to leave the house. It gives me a different aspect when I'm walking down streets. It helps in the darker months to feel as a, I'd love to go. Yeah. Well that was the rationale immediately when saw that first course. Clearly, it's just, I think there's something weird here and people take it the way they want to take it.

[00:11:58] And I think that's the big bit about true. Engagement is that everybody must be able to write a sentence for themselves in that story. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't fit, and it doesn't matter if it diverts where, you know, I love hearing people describe what we do because it's never the words I'd use. But they're passionate about it and it's their view of what we do. And it's more valuable than my view of what we do because they own that and it's their permission. We've got an expression permission to be brilliant.

[00:12:34] People who are listening to this won't automatically know, but I look like an extra from the Lord of the Rings, and therefore I'm kind of quite identifiable in a street scene. And I get people come up to me and go. You know what I've always wanted to do, Robin and I. So sorry. First of all, they go, are you Robin Hutchinson? Which point? Quite often I wanna go. Nope, I get this a

[00:12:52] Dan: No, you got me wrong. I'm an extra from Lord of the Rings.

[00:12:55] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I'm what would happen to Hagrid when he gets really old. Um, do you know, what I've always wanted to do? And I said, no, I've never met you. And they go, I've always wanted to do this. And I go, well, you should try. And they go, oh, thank you. And I wanna know what we've done in our lives that it needs validation from somebody you don't know to pursue a thing you dream about. You know, there's something tragic going on there in our lives. And so this permission to be brilliant is one of the things that we try and do, which is to give people that safe space, that support to know that if they try something and fall over, there are people around who will pick 'em up and just say, well, okay, we tried and it worked, or, and it failed. And what did we learn? Because as we all know, you get far more out, sadly, from failure than you do out of success.

[00:13:47] Pia: And I think there's something there about enrolling people into something that's, uh, that's, that's got a lot, a real spirit attached to it. I remember, you know, watching Dan's comments cuz he on Facebook several years ago and re and asking him, what the hell is this thing that you keep taking pictures of gloves and so forth? And then I found myself this summer, you know, on a bike ride. And I found, I found a glove and it was some biker's glove that got lost on a trail in about 33 degrees. So we don't have too many of them at this time of year. But it was such a, and I've took the photo, sent it to Dan's, stick this on it, it's gonna, it's gonna end up, and this, you're right. We all want to be part of, so, . And in that it enables a little bit of brilliance to happen for the people that are participating.

[00:14:35] And I think that's what's so powerful and what, what you organize is something that's actually so simple. I mean, finding a glove is not that difficult to do, but certainly not in in Britain or in Europe. But it so therefore it, it's open to everyone, as long as you can, you have vision, you're going to, you, you can take part in it really. 

[00:14:57] Robbie: That, that other bit of being able to opt in or out, you know, people who don't get it, some people get quite angry, you know? What's all this about? Da da da da da, as though it needs just, and, and I'm fascinated, we're witnessing it particularly at the moment through our politics is if we don't understand something, we can't leave it alone. Somehow we've gotta be against it or for it and not go, You know what? There are people walking around the street spotting gloves and it doesn't hurt me at all, and I don't have to do it, and I can just turn that part of my brain off and now we've got to bloody glove hunters.

[00:15:35] Dan: It's, it's a little bit like another tribe, but I didn't even know I was in this tribe. But I'm in the non glove hunters now. Yes. It, it's a little bit like, um, if you don't like gay marriage, don't get gay married, doesn't it? But just say same thing, just yeah, just fine. Don't participate.

[00:15:54] So I think what you described, there is something about a mind that filters these crazy ideas. The ideas waft through on the waters of our mind, and most of us have very big mesh and oh, they'll let them go downstream. You, you catch it. If you look back and said, you know, what's, what's happened in your life to lead to this point of the way where you sort approach things in a slightly different way and look out for these ideas, they're gonna have an impact on people?

[00:16:20] Robbie: I think that I don't have a very good edit button, and when we talk ideas as a group, had a classic example yesterday where it's very easy for me to enter lecture mode. I've had an idea. This is the idea. Let's do the idea. Thank you everybody. We're all agreed. And there is a, as you well know, there's a lovely expression, success as many parents and failure is an orphan, and the reality is you've got to work in a way where everybody knows they can contribute and be valued in what they're doing.

[00:16:48] So quite often the way I've learned to work is to go, this is roughly what I'm. Normally I've got an entire plan in my head, but I'm not gonna say a plan. Cause if I say a plan, then everybody's going, right. We need to understand and react to the plan. It's the plan that, so I'll just give a vague, this is what I'm thinking about. And then quite often I'll go, and I'm now and I'm, I play to my, um, I use my la my apparent lack of attention to detail and, um, concentration levels to go And I'm gonna walk out at this point and I'm just gonna leave you to chat about it. And when I come back, let's see where we've got to. And most people who've worked alongside them with over the years will know that that is total permission to come up with the stupidest things you could possibly think of. And then we will slowly, things will filter. But there are some people in life who want to pin ideas down straight away. The hot air balloon of an idea has gone up and they've gotta puncture it before it starts. What's the health and safety on this going to be? Um, and you, you've gotta almost try and liberate.

[00:17:54] And yesterday we had a classic example of of it and I had come back into it to kind of go, Yeah, we can appreciate, there will be difficulties attached to this, but before we go down that avenue, Let's have the game, because the game is where it comes from and we've been made, we've made ourselves far too serious and therefore we won't play the game. I think it is that bit around, and that's why we call it playground for adults. To to do things where you don't have the responsibility initially to have to deliver.

[00:18:25] I did a workshop for some health leaders. There were some fabulous cynics sitting in the room, you know, I mean, death by workshop, it's the, you know, great news everybody. We found some post-it notes, um, you know, and I loathe the workshop, so, you know, I mean, I am the first to go, Right, not playing. And one of the things was to take them to a place in 10 years time where actually they mentally knew they didn't hold any responsibility anymore cause they weren't gonna have to deliver it. Cause the impact of that is you start when you've done it, drawing it back to today and tomorrow. Some of this stuff we could actually be doing. Whereas if we've talked about today and tomorrow, they would've based their thoughts in what they were currently doing, why it was gonna be difficult to change. And I think that the joy is taking people to this place of absurdity.

[00:19:14] So Surbiton Ski Sunday is a classic example of that where. This started because I used to say to people, What do you like about living in Surbiton? And they would almost invariably say, ah, it's brilliant, Robin. 16 minutes to London, 16 minutes to the countryside. And it struck us one day. If you describe where you live by the speed, you can leave it, there's a really interesting psychology. And what could we do to get people to go, oh, come to us this weekend, we're only 16 minutes from you, we're only, so bring people in. And Surbiton Ski Sunday was one of the early manifesto, so basically this was democratizing of skiing. Skiing as we know, is primarily for the well to do. You go to a place where the snow, you put wood on your feet, you ski down the snow. What happens if you reverse the science and you put ice on your feet so you can ski on any surface? So we created Surbiton Ski Sunday, we're 11 years, 12 years into this project now. People come fly from Europe to participate in this piece of utter nonsense where we shout wave at bus drivers and all sorts of associated. And they play. And if you see the film and footage of it, people are just laughing at the absurdity of what. But it's made people change their attitude to where they live, because they're suddenly saying, come to us this weekend.

[00:20:31] And there was a really interesting. Uh, the leader of the council, the ex leader, used to have a sort of PowerPoint, you know, 7,000 slides talking about the, uh, demo demographics of the borough and future projections. And it was basically, you know, if Kingston carries on as it is, uh, it's just gonna feel, uh, smell of lavender and yuing cuz everybody's gonna be 133 years old. In Surbiton suddenly there's a change in the profile of people. And when you, we spoke to the estate agents and said, you know, why? Why you, they're saying We're we're young families and young professionals coming in. And when we ask them why, yes, the train is good. Yes, there are good schools here, but so many of them mention the sense of community they've experienced when they've come to events here. And that, you know, you can change things and give people hope.

[00:21:21] Dan: And, and I, Robin, I, I've never asked you about this, but Surbiton of course, is the archetypal suburban. 

[00:21:29] Robbie: Yeah. 

[00:21:30] Dan: it's treated with humor. People, you know, live in Surbiton, 2.3 kids, and a and a Mondeo. So 

[00:21:35] Robbie: Yeah. 

[00:21:36] Dan: all, you, you're sort of really going into the heart of the beast there, aren't you? And, and this isn't taking something that is got sort of quite a nice reputation to start with. You've really started with the sort of legendary suburban dullness and, and to that. So 

[00:21:50] Robbie: Well, it, you know, we are, you're right, it's a shorthand, Suburbiton. And see, I really challenged the sense of what the, we, we've given the suburbs a really bad name. We've gone cities lively and bright and beautiful, and the countryside is green and fantastic. And the suburb, gray.

[00:22:06] Dan: You can get to both of them in 16 minutes. Yeah, 

[00:22:09] Robbie: Yeah, you look at the invention of this country, you look at the creativity, you look at the entrepreneurship, and most of it will happen in and around the suburbs. The trouble is we don't recognize it there. We wait till it goes onto a big stage and then we applaud and go, Oh, see, it's the city.

[00:22:24] So we are in the middle of a project called Reappraising the Suburbs, which is looking at the role of the suburbs. Covid we know made people think and refreshed their relationship with where they lived and the way in which they work. And as a result of that, there is far more empathy and understanding of where you live and the importance of small shops and the, you know, there's a whole new language developing around this. Now, we'll talk about the UK, but I suspect it's true in a lot of other places. In what will have to be a recovering economy, why are you only using two of the three assets? Why aren't we using the suburbs for what they're great at? Innovation, creativity and entrepreneurship. Ice, as we put it.

[00:23:12] And you know, we're doing a lot of work to highlight those things. So at the moment we're doing a big study on, uh, industrial estates using one of our local industrial estates. Cause industrial estates similarly, nobody says, oh, I'm so lucky where I live. I'm near an industrial estate because we've just got still this image of boiling horses. And you, but of course, industrial estates are actually filled with new company, new idea. So the one near us, we've got, um, the largest, uh, private employer, New England Seafood. We've got massive cloud computing, and you've got people making widgets. And unless we appreciate and value these, the land is being lost. We've lost, I think it was something like 15% of industrial land in London in the last 10 years, cuz it gets nibbled away because nobody's narrated the importance of their store. And we need to do it. So the station project is part of Reappraising, the suburbs, the industrial estate is the green and we're into, we're embarking on what will become London's largest rewilding project.

[00:24:18] And then alongside that, what it's doing, cuz we've been working in an area called Tolworth, which the Evening just Standard described as the scrag end of the Royal Borough of Kingston upon Thames. And if you live in a place, talk like that, you can very quickly develop a, oh, my life has dealt me a a bit of a handy. We've been doing work in there and highlighting bits and, and suddenly people locally start coming forward with stories and tales that are magical, including, so there used to be a pub on a roundabout originally designed, this is fantastic as what they called a driving pub. You drove to it, you got drunk, you drove home. Until management worked out, they were losing a lot of regulars. So, you know, we need to do, we need to look at this driving concept.

[00:25:04] Dan: The business model is not good.

[00:25:07] Robbie: As sustainable as we first believed. Um, but this in the late sixties invented itself as part of it a music pub, its function room became a music pub. And in that period, Yes played there. Fleetwood Mac played there, Led Zeppelin played there, Genesis played there. But on the 10th of February in 1972, one man walked onto a stage and changed music, fashion, sexuality, and design in an evening, the very first performance of Ziggy Stardust by David Bowie took place in this tiny pub. 60 people at this gig. The start of a revolution.

[00:25:39] This last year, the 50th anniversary, we had a silent disco on the platforms at Waterloo, a special train from Waterloo to Tolworth, with entertainment in the carriages, and then a massive gig in the station, car park, a new mural. Suddenly people in an area that are being described as a scrag end are saying, No, no, no, we're special. And we've got people saying, weren't you lucky to pick Tolworth? The answer is, No. Like people, everywhere is brilliant. Everywhere's got a story. But we are deaf. We don't listen to it. And particularly large institutions and organizations are really poor at hearing and very good at trampling. And somehow we've gotta create the situations in which those quieter voices are allowed their chance to say, wait a minute, what about this?

[00:26:30] Dan: Wonderful. Hey, Robin, just talking, working with a few folks in this section. Quite often these movements are created by people, as you say, people like you become legendary. You recognize in the street flow of just an, just an absolute onslaught of ideas coming out and, and ways of doing things. You mentioned this briefly earlier, but you, your goal is not to be the sort of autocrat of a movement. You want to engage others and let everyone write their own words. What conversations do you have to have with yourself about making sure that that is struck right?

[00:27:03] Robbie: I, I suppose the biggest realization is if you want to do a lot, you can't do it. You've gotta get others to work with you to achieve a lot. You can do one thing brilliantly, but unless you let go, you'll do one thing brilliantly. Uh, you know, we know it in succession planning of small businesses. The one who, where it's an owner who controls everything, rarely does that business survive them leaving because it's being command and control. Whereas, you know, we had a team meeting yesterday of a combination of volunteers and people who work with me and everybody talking about their projects. And I was sitting, listening, thinking, how do we do all this? And I know how we do it all, because everybody takes the responsibility of their bit of it. And if they need.

[00:27:45] So I've always, you know, when I've been in that position of having a new office, I've always had the principle, come into my office when something's gone wrong or about to go wrong and come into my office when we need to open some champagne cuz you've done something brilliant. But for 90% of the time, don't come into my office to tell me you are doing your job, because that's what you are supposed to do. And I don't need to be told you're doing your job because I expect you to be brilliant at that. But I also expect that you, you will find real joy in the edges of it where you're allowed differently and do.

[00:28:19] So, you know, I work really as hard as I can. To abdicate. You know, we refer to every project as a baton. It must never rest in our hands long enough for us to believe it's ours. It must always be allowed to be. Now, sometimes that means a project will run in the wrong direction and it won't, it won't fly in the same way. Sometimes they'll take you to a place you'd never imagine. I don't think that, you know, any project where I've had the idea at the start, and it's ended up exactly the same, has never been as successful as when this is it, but I think it's all this other stuff as well. 

[00:28:57] You know, Fuse Box is a fabulous, you know, example of it. We have created this brand new space under a John Loizou in Kingston, uh, which contains the ruins, the first Kingston Bridge, the, the footings of it. We've made the space for young creatives to come play. What we've done is merely help prepare a canvas. All of the color, all of the shapes, all of the creativity will come into people who can come in and use that space and make it work. And our job is just to keep allowing people, you know, when we were going through the design process, the desire of designers to, we'll put a wall in here, we'll put a wall. No put no walls in to start. Let you define it. Let's see how people want to. Then we can do things.

[00:29:43] You know, you said earlier, you know, these things are about people. How many organizational charts do we study and look at? And we go, oh yeah, they're just a shape. It's people in those positions. And great organizations recognize those people and give them the freedom to make that shape work. You know, I'm involved in a charity that's going through natural growth. And it's really interesting to watch how the conversations begin to shift into, we'll need the chart and then we'll fit the, let's be careful here. Let's look at the people we've got and see the shape that takes and see if it's future-proofed. And if it's not, what do we do to support people to make that model? And let's get them embraced and involved in defining that shape. Because I think, you know, if we're witnessing the world at the moment, what have we learned? Top down doesn't work. We have got to be more savvy in what we do.

[00:30:39] Dan: Yeah. Interesting. Isn't it? That's, that's really sparked to thought for me, Robin, actually about the sort of, yes, we've got an organic Graham, we've got an organization chart, and now we can see the command structure, whereas that ability to let the thing go and see, yeah, I like the building, and the walls, see what the actual shape of it is, and then, then see what's required to best coordinate that. It's going to be a flatter, more distributed thing of all kinds of weird shapes, I imagine. You're gonna find strange, strange things we've ever seen before. If you can allow yourself to see the shape of the how it actually works, when nature takes course.

[00:31:18] Robbie: I was given a beautiful sentence by somebody which was Projects only speed at the, only run at the speed of trust. And it's such a beautiful, and of course you, you know, all of these things rely on you allowing people to feel trusted in what they do. And that's when you'll get the brilliance because they know you've got that, you've given them that support and that, and that's great. But it does require, you know, the re. One of the great assets of being bipolar is clearly mood swings, but also the ability to lie awake all night worrying about stuff. And during the night, I can give you everything that could possibly go wrong in a situation. I can give you chapter and verse with it, and then I've gotta wake up and go put all that fear to one side because people are brilliant and they'll know all that. They don't need you reminding them that if they do. They'll know that what they want is the support and confidence to go. But if I try, will you be there? Will you help me?

[00:32:23] You know, some people when they come and volunteer with us want to do the opposite of what their profession is. You know, rarely do you get an accountant volunteer saying, can I do the accounts? Because they're like, I don't wanna look at an Excel spreadsheet. Thanks very much. I, but there are some who do, designers, for example, quite often want to use their design skills because in the work environment, they're not allowed to do that.

[00:32:46] So my, you know, quite often we, I had a meeting with a designer first thing this morning about an exhibition that we're doing, and I was kinda like, what's the design brief? And I said, will you tell me. What is it you wanna do? And I was, well, I'll do, I said, well, that sounds great. Let's do that then, because I'm letting you know you are a designer. Why am I now being the designer if you are the designer? All I know is this is what I'd like people to feel when they go in there. This is how it should engage. But you can use every, all those ideas you have and you push to the side cuz no client would say yes to 'em.

[00:33:21] Pia: And last week we interviewed my nephew who talked about bold choices, and I think that runs through here too. It's this, you make choices and then it sets you on a path. So what was it for you that has set you on a, a pretty unique path that is adding so much value?

[00:33:39] Robbie: So I am the worst to give careers advice as you'd recognize, and I say to everybody, don't be me, because it's not fun. You know, I mean, I appear to be full, glib, da da da. But it comes with shadows, and I do anything I could for anybody to avoid the shadows. My brain changes quite regularly, so I'll say what today's thesis on how I develop this sort of personality is, and two things stand out. One is that we lived outside of Manchester in a place called Oldham at the age of six, uh, my father got a new job and we were lifted up and as a family moved down to Kingston. And it was extraordinarily challenging. I don't remember there being any pre-discussion. I'm sure there was, but you know, as I've probably expressed my bro, I work on a need to know basis and at the time all these conversations would've been, and then suddenly I'm in a new school, lost loads of issues around understanding of accent, the novelty of having a northerner. Everything about it was disturbing. And then six months later when we went back to see family, I'd got the reverse there. Suddenly I was posh. I was from the south, and I realized that I just didn't fit anywhere anymore. And it, it completely, I think it's, it's the basis of a lot of what subsequently happened with me is never wanting anybody to feel like that, that there isn't a place for you.

[00:35:14] And then in 2000 was the revelation of being diagnosed with bipolar,, which was the most brilliant thing that could have happened. because it explained completely as to why I didn't fit and, but I stood on the edge of the world thinking, I don't get this. I just don't fit in any of this. And I developed the act. This is how you can learn to fit in by being this personality, but it's a thread bear suit that you put on and it gets thinner and thinner and suddenly there was, actually, wait a minute, I don't fit. But also, nobody does. We're all desperately gonna work out how to locate ourselves. And if we are defined by the system, then we're always at friction. But if we can begin to define ourselves a little bit more and the situations that we feel better in and are more easy and. Cope with, then we take a bit more ownership in it all.

[00:36:20] And I think, again, there's something here about helping people take ownership of their lives, that all those things you were told you couldn't do, maybe you can. Maybe it was just somebody on the wrong day saying something to you and you've taken it so bad to get internally, that avenue is shut away from you. So how we make people reconnect with that? You know, it. We support a lot of people with Startup businesses and a lot, so we've got two community kitchens. We've got the people come with new business ideas they want to test. And a lot of them fail, but not one of them will go through life going, I wish I had, because they tried. More often than not, they'll come back with a refined idea, but go through life thinking of all the things you wish you'd done would be a tragedy.

[00:37:10] We've got, you know, this is, this is our go. We've got the dice, we give them a shake, and then we decide how we wanna move. And for me, you know, let's hope we land on another double. But if we see somebody sliding down a snake, let's reach out a hand and show 'em where the ladders are, because everybody should have a right to that. You know, there's, it's why I, I sat on boards, and I can remember saying, we need some luck here. And some I won't name said, you know, we make our own luck. And I was like, we don't. We've gotta recognize that the fact that we're on here, I, you know, so many things have happened to me where I was born, the family support, the opportunities. I'd be some egoist who said, I made all that happen. I didn. Happened by accident. Be in the right place with the right situation, with the right talents to be able to go, Yeah okay. We'll give that a go. Twice in my life have I tried to actually go on, I'm gonna have a career. On both occasions I've messed up. Because actually I, the place I was aiming at and thought, oh, this isn't what I wanna do. 

[00:38:20] Dan: it's, it's inspiring Robin and, um, Yeah, it, it's, I think what you've done is, you know, you've recognized your luck, but I think you have used that to bring, make a lot of other people very lucky as well. So and it's been 

[00:38:34] Pia: it's a generous luck. 

[00:38:36] Dan: a gen, Exactly. You've, you've, you've distributed that and it's just been heart, well, it's not even inspiring. It is heartwarming and, uh, gives us hope for humanity when we hear you talking and, um, so, Robin, thank you so much for joining us today. It's, um, there's so much there for us to all learn from. And I will certainly, as we kick off Ilkley Live very soon, my own little festival that I'm trying to get going and, uh, exactly that trying to enable other people to outright their own sentence in it. You've, uh, you've inspired me personally at the right moment, so thank you.

[00:39:08] Robbie: It's been really sweet and lovely to see you again, Dan, and lovely to meet you Pia.

[00:39:12] Pia: Thank you. Yeah, it's been wonderful.

[00:39:14] Dan: You know, I think Robin sets a really high bar for. How any leader and any team can see the potential of humans to work together to get things done. You know, it's, it's impressive, you know? He said everyone should be able to write a sentence for themselves in that story. I thought that was really telling of how he really sees that. Cause it's not just the outcome, you know, Ski Sunday or whatever it is, but actually the engagement with others, he knows, gives huge value. And people writing that, that sentence for themselves is, is something I think we could all think about.

[00:39:53] Pia: And I think he sees the connection part quite uniquely, probably from his own experience having, having moved, but how that connection can really make people collectively shine. I think he said, uh, everyone can be brilliant rather than gray,

[00:40:10] Dan: Yes. Permission to be brilliant. I really like that Actually. 

[00:40:13] Pia: so I think he realizes his own strengths and his own areas where he's more challenged and he steps aside and creates the space for that. That was another part cuz you can have somebody that's. sets the scene and then they can be actually quite overpowering in that scene. Whereas he's got the incredible humility to be able to realize where others need to step up. So he sets it and then he quite obviously steps back and that enables multiple projects to happen at the same time, he's got a, an enormous amount on his

[00:40:47] Dan: Yeah, it's, it's amazing plate spinning, but as he said, no one's doing everything. You know, if you had said if you want to do a lot, you can't do it. and I thought he's thinking about his own self-awareness or just thinking about his own character and the way he sees that and going back over time and seeing where it came from. But, you know, there's a flip side to this, um, ability, isn't there? He mentioned the shadows you know, and I know from his social media posts that they are, they're, they're with him, like, like our shadows always are, you know?

[00:41:16] Pia: And I think that's a, that in itself is connecting because I think everybody's got those shadows. But Brett either pretends not to have the shadows or, or hopes that they're not seen or they keep them quiet. Whereas I think him actually being really open about it was incredibly powerful. Because it's just, it's just part of humanity that binds us together. That's part of what we all have to wrangle. And we're now getting a language to be able to talk about it and it's safe for everyone to talk about it. This, this doesn't mean you are anything, it 

[00:41:50] Dan: No 

[00:41:51] Pia: you're dealing.

[00:41:52] Dan: Yeah, definitely,

[00:41:53] Pia: and that's it.

[00:41:54] Dan: Definitely. And it's interesting is that, you know, we've talked a long lot of times about sort of the great man theory of leadership and how we, we do tend to hold people on a pedestal, but it doesn't actually do us or them any good if we don't see a hole, the whole. You know, it's, um, so, uh, yeah, he's, he's very courageous in sharing that as well. As you say, coming back to We Not Me, it binds, I think that's a really good way of putting at it. By seeing the whole person, we can connect to that person. It's hard to connect to some vision of perfection.

[00:42:25] Pia: And I remember once Wise words from, I can't remember. It was some, it was some program I did a long time ago talking about if you wanted to build connection, how much of a percentage of, of yourself did you give, did you in in, in any relationship? And I thought it was like 50% . 50 50. That's how they said no. If you only give 50%, then the other person will only give 50%. You've gotta give a hundred. And what I was so impressed by Robin was he gives a hundred. He gives a hundred, even if it probably hurts, sometimes, he gives a hundred. And that's, and then you look at what he's created both in his professional life, and all these other wacky, wild and fun things that he's created. And that's an incredible legacy. So I, I, I think there's something in there for all of us to think about, you know, how we show up and what we're doing and how, how, how we are, and what can be created. be brilliant. Not gray. 

[00:43:23] Dan: be brilliant, not mate, great. And, uh, give a bit more of ourselves in order to allow others to do the same. But, uh, wonderful, wonderful to, to hear from Robin.

[00:43:31] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes. And resources at squadify.net, just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at we notmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye for me.

[00:43:55] Pia: And is goodbye from me.