WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.581 --> 00:00:12.871 Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. 00:00:13.701 --> 00:00:19.701 This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education. 00:00:20.121 --> 00:00:24.471 Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com. 00:00:24.971 --> 00:00:27.731 I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast. 00:00:27.821 --> 00:00:35.711 And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. 00:00:36.331 --> 00:00:38.881 A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords. 00:00:39.216 --> 00:00:40.056 Only stuff that 00:00:40.056 --> 00:00:40.586 works. 00:00:41.789 --> 00:00:44.249 My guest today is Rod Jay Knockin. 00:00:44.909 --> 00:00:53.639 Rod is a secondary English language arts teacher with deep experience in educational leadership, professional development, and the science of dialogue. 00:00:54.419 --> 00:01:02.279 Through his classroom practice and ongoing research, he explores how meaningful conversations can transform teaching, learning, and leadership in education. 00:01:03.374 --> 00:01:09.974 A graduate of the University of New Orleans and southeastern Louisiana University where he is currently pursuing his doctorate. 00:01:10.544 --> 00:01:18.224 Rod leads the science of dialogue, examining how thoughtful discussion enhances student engagement and educational outcomes. 00:01:19.034 --> 00:01:27.554 Through his blog, podcast, and social media presence, he shares classroom insights and explores the power of strategic dialogue in education. 00:01:28.274 --> 00:01:32.984 You can connect with Rod at Rod j Nokin across social platform. 00:01:32.984 --> 00:01:38.594 Subscribe to a substack or listen to the science of Dialogue wherever you get your podcasts. 00:01:39.134 --> 00:01:40.814 I think you're gonna like this one. 00:01:41.139 --> 00:01:41.259 I 00:01:42.500 --> 00:01:46.310 Rod, thank you for being on better teaching only stuff that works. 00:01:46.820 --> 00:01:50.230 I'm so happy to be back, gene and talk shop with you once again. 00:01:50.950 --> 00:01:53.380 Oh I'm always excited to talk to you, rod. 00:01:53.660 --> 00:01:55.220 Although I do have to say. 00:01:55.985 --> 00:02:01.895 I've told you this before and it gives me a little PTSD sometimes to read your stuff with all the philosophy. 00:02:01.895 --> 00:02:05.855 'cause I was a philosophy major who didn't understand anything at the time. 00:02:06.305 --> 00:02:06.545 Huh. 00:02:06.635 --> 00:02:09.994 And so sometimes I understand what you're saying, sometimes I don't. 00:02:09.994 --> 00:02:11.884 But it's always interesting to read. 00:02:12.274 --> 00:02:15.364 And so I appreciate you being back, appreciate you being back. 00:02:15.374 --> 00:02:21.044 And I'll tell you, rod, one of the reasons that I wanted to have you back again, is to talk about. 00:02:21.524 --> 00:02:25.244 A little bit of your journey, so we, so in the introduction Sure. 00:02:25.244 --> 00:02:31.574 Talked about you had done, you had worked in leadership, you're a teacher, worked in leadership, and now you're back in teaching. 00:02:31.574 --> 00:02:40.659 So, so if you could kind, let's expand a little bit on, on your background and what you did in that time when you were away from teaching and and then move forward from there. 00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:46.929 Yes, sir. So, I first went into a classroom around 2011 in recovery schools in New Orleans. 00:02:46.929 --> 00:02:50.309 And I taught for, let's see, about seven, eight years. 00:02:50.359 --> 00:02:56.489 And then I had an opportunity to move into a staff development or professional development role at a school site. 00:02:56.999 --> 00:02:58.979 So it was 20 17, 20 18. 00:02:59.009 --> 00:03:02.579 I started working with the leadership team at a big high school here in Louisiana. 00:03:02.889 --> 00:03:07.409 Basically what my role was is kind of liaison between the teachers and the administrative staff. 00:03:07.509 --> 00:03:09.339 I chaired the instructional leadership team. 00:03:09.339 --> 00:03:10.779 Some folks call those ts. 00:03:10.779 --> 00:03:12.609 There's all kind of ABCs with that. 00:03:12.979 --> 00:03:16.449 I did that at a big school Southwest of New Orleans for two years. 00:03:16.819 --> 00:03:26.709 And then after that I moved into a, within the same district, a system-wide role, where I was doing some instructional coaching for history and English language arts teachers and secondary environments. 00:03:26.709 --> 00:03:28.899 That was primarily nine 12. 00:03:29.329 --> 00:03:30.229 So I did two years. 00:03:30.829 --> 00:03:31.309 Coaching. 00:03:31.309 --> 00:03:37.269 I went to two different high schools and worked with history, US history teachers English teachers from a variety of different grade levels. 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:42.909 And then after that, I think in the be spring, late winter of 2022, I went into nonprofit land. 00:03:43.299 --> 00:03:49.279 So, I worked for a few different nonprofits that were doing some professional learning or teacher training. 00:03:49.699 --> 00:03:51.919 Primarily in context around here in Louisiana. 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:59.044 So, I ran into a lot of those folks because they were doing curricular reform in the state of Louisiana trying to bring different materials to kids and train up the teachers. 00:03:59.859 --> 00:04:03.364 With the use and the kind of evidence backing of some of those materials. 00:04:03.634 --> 00:04:10.304 So in 2022, I took a full-time role kind of remote doing some of that teacher leadership work traveling to a bunch of different schools. 00:04:10.304 --> 00:04:17.924 I went to Arkansas as we were talking about prior to this conversation of four different systems there kind of leading coaching work in those systems. 00:04:18.364 --> 00:04:25.214 And I did that for two and a half years while that was happening, I've been working on my dissertation since kind of COVID time. 00:04:25.219 --> 00:04:27.254 2020, yeah, about six years ago. 00:04:27.254 --> 00:04:39.914 And my dissertation, once I kind of walked into working with leadership teams and then doing coaching at a bunch of different schools and going to like 10 to 12 different teacher team meetings every week I became really fascinated with how. 00:04:39.984 --> 00:04:42.864 Adults talk to one another about the work that they do in education. 00:04:43.104 --> 00:04:47.424 And that's why my dissertation has become about how educators talk to one another. 00:04:47.554 --> 00:04:54.434 It's primarily around leadership talk, but I've studied all around like how kind of, horizontal teacher talk intersects and all that kind of stuff. 00:04:54.644 --> 00:04:57.389 And then, you know, ed reform has had some kind of bumps in the road, at least. 00:04:58.074 --> 00:05:00.084 In the last maybe 12, 18 months. 00:05:00.334 --> 00:05:04.524 And part of that is kind of inspired me to go back to my alma mater. 00:05:04.524 --> 00:05:08.364 So I started teaching again in August of 2025. 00:05:08.424 --> 00:05:13.694 And I've been blessed to be working with some juniors and seniors in high school with their English language arts work. 00:05:13.694 --> 00:05:18.284 So hopefully that gives you a picture of kind of how that trajectory has kind of played out. 00:05:19.064 --> 00:05:25.114 So your interest in the dialogue, study of dialogue, the genesis was you're actually doing this work. 00:05:25.474 --> 00:05:25.744 Sure. 00:05:25.744 --> 00:05:30.534 Observing folks, observing how sometimes they communicate effectively, sometimes not so much. 00:05:30.894 --> 00:05:32.664 And so you became interested in that. 00:05:32.694 --> 00:05:37.274 And that is that is the your area of study on your dissertation. 00:05:37.304 --> 00:05:37.634 Correct. 00:05:37.994 --> 00:05:38.954 Of your area of research. 00:05:39.584 --> 00:05:42.524 So has that changed? 00:05:42.674 --> 00:05:46.374 Can you walk into a conversation now and not. 00:05:46.929 --> 00:05:54.299 Dissect it, you know, you know, are, you know, you know, I mean, because when you first start, when you first start studying something, that's all you see. 00:05:54.509 --> 00:05:54.569 Yeah. 00:05:54.854 --> 00:05:58.564 And where are you in that, in, in that, do you know, it's like a therapist. 00:05:58.564 --> 00:06:00.964 It's like a therapist, you know, talking to somebody. 00:06:00.974 --> 00:06:01.364 They can't. 00:06:01.444 --> 00:06:02.224 Put that aside. 00:06:02.224 --> 00:06:03.664 Well, I can't, to be honest. 00:06:03.664 --> 00:06:07.119 You know, like, it's become so kind of ingrained and you followed me on social. 00:06:07.119 --> 00:06:13.789 So I'm always thinking, I'm always studying, I'm always dealing with some kind of text and trying to kind of refine where I'm at or find new things. 00:06:14.069 --> 00:06:20.039 So I mean, I'm that wacky guy that's still thinking about Aristotle's rhetoric while I'm having a lot of different conversations. 00:06:20.039 --> 00:06:22.339 I know that seems insane but it's kind of hard to turn off. 00:06:23.004 --> 00:06:28.404 And I would say, I would argue that right now we're engaged in a spontaneous dialogue. 00:06:28.614 --> 00:06:35.414 And because of like the ubiquity of it it, it would be kind of disingenuous for me to pretend like I'm not kind of, I mean, I'm always involved in it. 00:06:35.414 --> 00:06:37.339 We're always involved with dialogue and talk. 00:06:37.619 --> 00:06:41.874 So, I try, you know, sometimes to not over philosophize. 00:06:41.874 --> 00:06:42.804 I spo, I suppose. 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:48.799 But it's hard for me to kind of, I've just read so much around dialogue that it's always part of my thinking. 00:06:48.949 --> 00:06:51.199 I think it was part of, but it was part of it before I kind of Yeah. 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:52.819 Came into that dissertation space. 00:06:52.909 --> 00:06:54.559 But now I mean it, for better or worse. 00:06:54.559 --> 00:06:55.309 It's always there. 00:06:56.149 --> 00:06:59.479 So, so you were doing this work outside at various schools. 00:06:59.489 --> 00:07:00.314 You were doing this work. 00:07:00.314 --> 00:07:00.359 Yeah. 00:07:00.389 --> 00:07:09.539 And again, now you have that perspective that based on your study of dialogue, when you moved back to the classroom, how did you think or how. 00:07:10.184 --> 00:07:10.394 Yeah. 00:07:10.424 --> 00:07:16.904 How did you think that was going to change how you perceived teaching and your interactions with students? 00:07:18.029 --> 00:07:26.979 I had some assumptions and students are a great group of folks to destroy your assumptions and really challenge anything that you may have brought into the room thinking that was kind of airtight and could work. 00:07:27.229 --> 00:07:36.899 But one of the big things for me, and I still believe this and I can talk to you a little bit more about how I've kind of, finessed it to make it kind of fit with the reality of high school juniors and seniors in 2026. 00:07:37.239 --> 00:07:38.629 But I've come to the understanding that. 00:07:39.294 --> 00:07:42.354 Dialogue is kind of upstream of monologue. 00:07:42.654 --> 00:07:52.494 So when I returned to the classroom, I really was looking for ways to support kids with talk before I asked them to do more monolog. 00:07:52.494 --> 00:07:54.514 I know that sounds kind of crazy artifacts. 00:07:54.514 --> 00:07:58.204 So in other words, if I was gonna ask them to write a paragraph, I wanted them to talk a lot about it. 00:07:58.219 --> 00:08:01.909 Take a lot of turns talking about what they would write about before. 00:08:01.909 --> 00:08:09.379 I would ask them to generate an artifact, a text, a free response question, or to respond to anything multiple selected, whatever it is. 00:08:09.529 --> 00:08:13.079 Whereas in the past I wasn't doing as much talk. 00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:15.679 I wasn't building in as much like, deliberate. 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:21.829 Conversational and discourse kind of moments prior to having them write or complete an assignment. 00:08:21.979 --> 00:08:31.489 So one of the big things when I came back to the classroom, and I blogged about this in the fall and I had to do some tinkering to figure this out, was like, I'm gonna have a convers conference table and I'm gonna talk to as many kids as I can. 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:33.499 And I learned a lot about how. 00:08:33.549 --> 00:08:35.139 That could work, sort of. 00:08:35.199 --> 00:08:51.949 And oftentimes it is very challenging to manage in a classroom, but I've kept the principle of trying to have a lot of turn taking conversations or offer kids opportunities to talk to one another before they had to encode it in writing or respond to a prompt or develop an essay. 00:08:52.424 --> 00:08:53.564 Or expand a paragraph. 00:08:53.714 --> 00:08:55.274 So I'm still doing a lot of that. 00:08:55.494 --> 00:08:57.864 Now it's like, it looks a little different from how I envisioned it. 00:08:57.864 --> 00:08:59.994 When I went back in August, I was like, we'll have a conference table. 00:08:59.994 --> 00:09:01.554 I'll talk to two, three kids every day. 00:09:01.644 --> 00:09:03.154 We'll always be talking about it and yada. 00:09:03.234 --> 00:09:07.494 And the management of everybody else was not something that was as prominent in my thinking. 00:09:07.684 --> 00:09:09.784 But returning that reality kind of jumped in on me. 00:09:09.944 --> 00:09:15.474 But I'm still inviting kids to have rich conversations before I get them to do to generate a text or to write. 00:09:16.389 --> 00:09:18.939 So let's talk about the thinking of your timeline here. 00:09:18.939 --> 00:09:19.059 Sure. 00:09:19.419 --> 00:09:25.239 So you had you were teaching, you started teaching about what year were you doing? 00:09:25.239 --> 00:09:27.334 2010. 2011. 20 20 10. Okay. 00:09:27.334 --> 00:09:33.504 So you had, from the time you were teaching you started out, you had all the, I wanna bring tech. 00:09:33.504 --> 00:09:34.944 See, I wanna talk about tech a little bit. 00:09:34.944 --> 00:09:35.034 Sure. 00:09:35.244 --> 00:09:38.254 So you had the explosion of the iPhone and all of that happened? 00:09:38.494 --> 00:09:38.584 Yes. 00:09:38.584 --> 00:09:43.294 And then you left for a period of time, you left the classroom prior to COVID, correct? 00:09:43.294 --> 00:09:43.954 Sure, yes. 00:09:43.984 --> 00:09:44.314 Okay. 00:09:44.404 --> 00:09:45.514 And then you came back? 00:09:45.514 --> 00:09:45.574 Yeah. 00:09:45.574 --> 00:09:50.494 So here's my question after trying to provide some context is, did you see. 00:09:51.054 --> 00:09:58.584 A difference in the ability of the students or the desire of the students to have that dialogue that you were talking about. 00:09:58.584 --> 00:10:02.774 Was that a confounding a variable in what you were trying to do? 00:10:03.709 --> 00:10:04.339 Do you think? 00:10:04.339 --> 00:10:06.019 Or am I making it up? 00:10:06.229 --> 00:10:06.979 No big time. 00:10:07.009 --> 00:10:10.999 So when I was still in the classroom, my last year in the classroom was 20 17, 20 18. 00:10:10.999 --> 00:10:15.549 At that time I was blessed as a English teacher to have a Chromebook cart in my classroom. 00:10:15.909 --> 00:10:18.159 And there was a lot of amazing things we could do with that, right? 00:10:18.219 --> 00:10:25.269 But it lived in my classroom so kids would come and I could make an instructional decision about when you would gather those materials for part of our lesson. 00:10:25.449 --> 00:10:27.759 It wasn't living with a kid post COVID. 00:10:28.064 --> 00:10:36.444 At least in the place where I am now, and I recognize this is in a lot of places that kids are distributed one-on-one devices, oftentimes from a school. 00:10:36.444 --> 00:10:43.244 So now what happens is, rather than kids coming to my classroom and I decide when you get the Chromebook or when you use a device. 00:10:43.789 --> 00:10:49.184 They are arriving with a device that has been assigned to them for the whole school year that they're bringing to every class. 00:10:49.454 --> 00:10:52.774 So that changes things pretty dramatically, at least in my conception, right? 00:10:52.774 --> 00:10:58.204 So I have to, no longer am I the one who's orbiting, like, Hey, 20 minutes in, we're gonna use the Chromebook for writing test. 00:10:58.354 --> 00:11:01.324 They arrive with them and they have expectations about their use, right? 00:11:01.324 --> 00:11:02.974 So I'm teaching 11th and 12th grade kids. 00:11:03.314 --> 00:11:09.774 That have at least for the last maybe four or five, maybe a little bit more than that, have expecting one-to-one devices. 00:11:09.864 --> 00:11:15.984 And that changes their expectations of what kind of activities they get from their teacher, how much they do or don't use them. 00:11:16.104 --> 00:11:24.099 And kids, you know, like adults, you know, in many ways really rely on their devices to do certain things or expect to be able to access things through them. 00:11:24.349 --> 00:11:27.729 So that's a whole new, that was a whole new thing for me coming in, in the fall. 00:11:27.729 --> 00:11:28.629 It was like in the past. 00:11:28.899 --> 00:11:32.499 I could decide and I would say, Hey, you go get them 20 minutes into class now. 00:11:32.499 --> 00:11:39.349 You all arrive with them and I have to figure out how to manage you at the beginning so that it doesn't become kind of a divergent kind of challenge there. 00:11:39.349 --> 00:11:43.224 So it's been, it, that has been one of my bigger challenges returning to a classroom to be frank. 00:11:44.004 --> 00:11:52.654 Oh, when you are doing these conversations with the students, do you need to structure the conversation at all? 00:11:52.654 --> 00:11:55.074 Do you need to provide any framework for them? 00:11:55.949 --> 00:12:02.489 Again, I hear teachers say, you know, that they will have students who are 10 feet away send them a text. 00:12:03.089 --> 00:12:03.419 Yeah. 00:12:03.479 --> 00:12:04.949 Instead of talking to them. 00:12:05.319 --> 00:12:09.249 And so the idea of talking to anybody much less a teacher Sure. 00:12:09.819 --> 00:12:10.089 Did. 00:12:10.089 --> 00:12:11.829 Did you have to scaffold that? 00:12:12.189 --> 00:12:13.974 Well, well, I'll tell you a few things. 00:12:13.974 --> 00:12:14.184 Yeah. 00:12:14.454 --> 00:12:14.694 Okay. 00:12:14.694 --> 00:12:14.904 Go ahead. 00:12:14.904 --> 00:12:18.714 I'll tell you a few things that I'm doing and I have some complex feelings about this, right? 00:12:18.714 --> 00:12:33.804 So there's a lot of folks who like to talk about the Socratic seminar and all this kind of stuff in their classroom, but I've been blessed enough in the last six, seven years to really look at the Socratic texts, like really read more about Socrates and his like dialogic approaches. 00:12:34.464 --> 00:12:37.854 So I'm not a huge fan of a structure like a Socratic circle. 00:12:37.944 --> 00:12:41.454 When somebody says we're doing a Socratic today, it kind of grinds my gears to be frank. 00:12:41.454 --> 00:12:44.064 Look, if you want to email me, find me online and talk to me about this. 00:12:44.184 --> 00:12:45.834 I'm happy you're doing a discussion in your classroom. 00:12:45.834 --> 00:12:55.064 But that's not like, to me, that's that's a protocol, you know, and I'm like I'm such a dialogue person that that I believe in, like, levity and spontaneity in dialogue. 00:12:55.244 --> 00:12:59.324 So over scaffolding is something that I'm afraid of, but. 00:12:59.844 --> 00:13:04.254 You're right, like kids wanna be in advice and they'd rather text you than have a conversation with you. 00:13:04.254 --> 00:13:10.504 So I used a few relatively simple structures to try to build a discourse culture in my classroom. 00:13:10.744 --> 00:13:17.954 One of 'em was kind of an accident in the fall but I discovered it and I think it's really been helpful and it's a simple, would you rather questions? 00:13:18.104 --> 00:13:19.004 You may have heard those. 00:13:19.259 --> 00:13:24.119 When I was working in ed reform, we would do like a little icebreaker at the beginning of the meetings. 00:13:24.119 --> 00:13:25.529 All of my zooms all day long, right? 00:13:25.529 --> 00:13:27.989 The last time I saw you, I was like, I hadn't been on a Zoom in a while. 00:13:28.079 --> 00:13:33.959 But what I would do on Zoom a lot is ask folks these, would you rather questions like, would you rather have like spaghetti for hair or pancakes for feet? 00:13:34.349 --> 00:13:40.424 Like wacky questions to just like get us into the humane kind of dialogue of that of that moment. 00:13:40.574 --> 00:13:45.354 So when I went back into a classroom, I was like, Hey I was struggling to find ways to get kids engaged. 00:13:45.444 --> 00:13:46.404 I was like, Hey, this worked. 00:13:46.404 --> 00:13:47.304 I mean, it was fun, dude. 00:13:47.304 --> 00:13:48.414 Would you rather, let's try it out. 00:13:48.744 --> 00:13:56.524 So now in this spring what it does is it makes it forces a binary and I'm not always a binary person, but it forces a binary. 00:13:56.524 --> 00:13:58.594 So would you rather is structured like. 00:13:58.814 --> 00:14:02.234 Hey, are you gonna pick this side or are you gonna pick this side? 00:14:02.414 --> 00:14:08.769 And when and I set it up to where I ask them to stand up and go on the other side of the room that you would rather, right? 00:14:08.829 --> 00:14:11.559 And then I ask them, I know this is not a groundbreaking process. 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:13.379 I know that folks have described this before. 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:16.859 And then I ask them to turn to the person next to you and tell them why you're standing there. 00:14:16.989 --> 00:14:18.429 They're justifying their claim. 00:14:18.429 --> 00:14:21.429 They're justifying why they decided on that position. 00:14:21.579 --> 00:14:22.839 So I do that every Friday. 00:14:23.444 --> 00:14:27.194 And sometimes it's, I try to make 'em approachable or accessible questions. 00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:30.389 So, and not every kid's gonna wanna talk, but I'm asking. 00:14:30.389 --> 00:14:31.409 I'm like, leave everything. 00:14:31.469 --> 00:14:32.519 Don't pick nothing up. 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:33.719 You don't need to bring anything with you. 00:14:33.719 --> 00:14:35.459 All you need to bring is your wonderful self. 00:14:35.579 --> 00:14:36.239 Stand up. 00:14:36.329 --> 00:14:37.469 Pick a side to my question. 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:41.979 And we do that so much that some kids, they would love to talk all day like me. 00:14:41.979 --> 00:14:42.969 You know, I love to talk. 00:14:42.969 --> 00:14:43.419 It doesn't matter. 00:14:43.419 --> 00:14:44.419 I love hearing my own voice, da. 00:14:44.659 --> 00:14:47.279 But many kids that's not something that they're really. 00:14:47.579 --> 00:14:52.469 Prepared or desiring to do, especially when it's might be broadcast more broadly. 00:14:52.709 --> 00:14:53.879 So when I do that, I'm. 00:14:54.689 --> 00:14:58.229 Providing a, the scaffold for me is you have a smaller group. 00:14:58.229 --> 00:15:04.379 I'm just asking you to talk to the person next to you about why you're there, and then I might draw you into the further conversation. 00:15:04.529 --> 00:15:05.699 And then we do that all the time. 00:15:05.699 --> 00:15:07.469 We do four or five of those every week. 00:15:07.779 --> 00:15:10.539 And then I build them into and try to make them more coherent. 00:15:10.539 --> 00:15:14.329 What we're studying, the text that we're reading to invite kids into conversation. 00:15:14.329 --> 00:15:15.439 I'm not gonna lie to you, gene. 00:15:15.439 --> 00:15:16.834 Not every kid wants to say stuff, you know. 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:19.849 It's a tough to get kids to start to speak. 00:15:20.219 --> 00:15:28.099 But I use a lot of different structures like small group, partner all the time, talk I, I intentionally say get rid of everything else. 00:15:28.099 --> 00:15:29.749 Close everything, put everything away. 00:15:29.749 --> 00:15:34.239 I don't need you to have anything except your mind, you spirit and talking to the person next to you. 00:15:34.419 --> 00:15:37.539 So that's really what I lean into as far as like, quote unquote structure. 00:15:38.049 --> 00:15:46.389 Scaffold it's more kind of like a repetition of a few easily accessible dialogue structures is what I'm really kind of, living with right now. 00:15:46.389 --> 00:15:54.391 In the second semester, I'm hearing you talk about be you want the kids to be able to talk about what they're gonna write before. 00:15:54.571 --> 00:15:54.791 Yes. 00:15:55.821 --> 00:15:57.556 And I'm trying to tie a couple things together. 00:15:57.556 --> 00:15:58.186 Help me out here. 00:15:58.186 --> 00:15:58.306 Sure. 00:15:58.606 --> 00:16:00.266 So, in your writing. 00:16:01.041 --> 00:16:08.601 I've read some of your blogs where you have talked about providing scaffolds for the writing so that it's more focused. 00:16:09.111 --> 00:16:20.121 And so that's really structured and so I'm thinking about do we have to match the dialogue in that structured way as well prior to the writing? 00:16:20.751 --> 00:16:27.021 Well, what I'll push on there is I'm less of a fan of the writing structure. 00:16:27.971 --> 00:16:33.611 I like CER, for example, claim evidence, reasoning or like race or restate, assert. 00:16:33.691 --> 00:16:40.171 Around here I've heard folks say like, Acer assertions, site evidence or re reasoning, all this kinda stuff. 00:16:40.551 --> 00:16:42.861 What I'm not a huge fan of those things, to be honest. 00:16:43.201 --> 00:16:47.671 I, for example I don't think, like, if you look at CER claim, evidence, reasoning. 00:16:48.336 --> 00:16:52.576 In the wild writing, in the wild your evidence and your reasoning are oftentimes integrated. 00:16:52.666 --> 00:17:02.216 In fact, if you go ask a bunch of teachers, and I know you work with a lot of teachers a problem quote unquote, that a lot of writing teachers encounter is that kids drop a quote in and they don't explain it. 00:17:02.536 --> 00:17:07.516 I, I think part of the cause there is because we're telling them that evidence and reasoning are different things when they aren't. 00:17:07.796 --> 00:17:13.016 And in a fluid writing you will find reasoning that integrates evidence inside of it. 00:17:13.266 --> 00:17:13.866 They're integrated. 00:17:13.866 --> 00:17:21.631 So that's part of the justification or the rationale that I have for why I'm not a huge of like, form formulaic writing kind of, ingredients. 00:17:21.841 --> 00:17:24.551 But what I do is like I'll tell you about what I was doing today. 00:17:25.076 --> 00:17:28.016 So I want kids to write about Greg Gatsby in 11th grade class, right? 00:17:28.286 --> 00:17:31.316 So, rather than telling them, I need you to write a paragraph, here's your question. 00:17:31.316 --> 00:17:33.056 Do a claim, do evidence, and do reasoning. 00:17:33.326 --> 00:17:37.076 What I do is say, Hey here's the question or here's a claim. 00:17:37.356 --> 00:17:41.466 GA Gatsby's ambition changes how Daisy sees him, right? 00:17:41.466 --> 00:17:44.246 So I give you a claim, and then here's a dialogue structure. 00:17:44.546 --> 00:17:45.386 I'll count you off. 00:17:45.386 --> 00:17:46.976 I'll put you with three or four other people. 00:17:47.396 --> 00:17:49.226 Here's 10 different pieces of evidence. 00:17:49.631 --> 00:17:51.851 Some of them are good and some of them aren't. 00:17:52.481 --> 00:18:00.311 Talk to the people that you're with right now and try to figure out which of these is good evidence to support this claim and which isn't. 00:18:00.491 --> 00:18:02.111 That's an activity that we did today, right? 00:18:02.111 --> 00:18:03.401 So I've provided the claim there. 00:18:03.551 --> 00:18:11.361 I've also provided us an assortment of different kind of evidence and reasoning statements where they're integrating the evidence in there so kids are seeing. 00:18:11.651 --> 00:18:20.091 Some examples of quality evidence and reasoning and some poor examples, and they have to talk to one another about which ones match the claim. 00:18:20.371 --> 00:18:25.751 So what I'm doing there is trying, so when they go to write, it's no longer obscure. 00:18:25.751 --> 00:18:27.371 No longer do I need a name. 00:18:27.371 --> 00:18:28.796 Hey, you gotta generate evidence. 00:18:28.796 --> 00:18:30.851 You gotta generate reasoning, and you gotta generate a claim. 00:18:30.926 --> 00:18:34.826 You've seen them working together in a similar context. 00:18:34.976 --> 00:18:45.446 So oftentimes kids can grab that, like maybe a claim that they found compelling or they'll take an example and make their own claim to demonstrate to me 'cause they want to, that they can take it in a different direction. 00:18:45.566 --> 00:18:48.956 But they've seen concrete examples that are really closely. 00:18:49.026 --> 00:18:51.546 Related to the text that we're reckoning with in that moment. 00:18:51.696 --> 00:19:02.406 So what I've basically done is taken the scaffold from the writing piece and put it into a pre upstream dialogue conversation where I really am scaffolding their understanding of claim, evidence, and reasoning. 00:19:02.556 --> 00:19:08.946 I'm just doing it in a different way, and rather than saying, you have to have this many sentences, and this is how the parts fit together. 00:19:09.291 --> 00:19:12.321 I've, you've seen examples and now I just want you to answer the question. 00:19:12.351 --> 00:19:13.461 So answer the question for me. 00:19:13.711 --> 00:19:16.331 If it's, if it demands a claim in a certain way. 00:19:16.331 --> 00:19:21.986 So that's kind of how I, my thinking around writing and speak speaking, and those relationships has developed. 00:19:23.201 --> 00:19:30.211 I, you had I read a blog recently of yours that you described part of that process, you described the fact that you were gonna give the claim. 00:19:30.361 --> 00:19:33.361 You didn't go into further how you just described, you know Yeah. 00:19:33.391 --> 00:19:35.411 Give, having them evaluate evidence. 00:19:35.831 --> 00:19:35.921 Yeah. 00:19:35.921 --> 00:19:45.661 And I had talked to you earlier and I was so excited to see that because developing a claim is difficult and it could stop the whole process. 00:19:46.141 --> 00:19:47.641 Yeah because you start with the claim. 00:19:47.881 --> 00:19:50.561 So, so I was excited when you talked about that. 00:19:50.921 --> 00:19:51.971 And it's hard for me. 00:19:51.971 --> 00:19:56.231 I work with a lot of language arts teachers and do having them do that. 00:19:56.951 --> 00:19:58.331 It almost hurts their heart. 00:19:58.361 --> 00:20:00.341 They're thinking like, oh, I'm giving them too much. 00:20:00.341 --> 00:20:01.391 I'm giving them too much. 00:20:01.811 --> 00:20:12.771 But but in, in the, in your blog you had an example about a claim about Macbeth and what was happening in Denmark, and I'm thinking, oh, kids, that is pretty sophisticated stuff. 00:20:12.831 --> 00:20:16.371 But once you know that, now you can evaluate evidence. 00:20:16.761 --> 00:20:18.831 Yeah, so I'm really inspired. 00:20:18.831 --> 00:20:22.991 There's this woman Sarah Tio, who has written a book. 00:20:22.991 --> 00:20:24.161 It's called The Literacy Cookbook. 00:20:24.161 --> 00:20:25.121 I'm looking at it right now. 00:20:25.121 --> 00:20:30.806 But in the fall, I was trying so walking into a teaching role, right? 00:20:30.806 --> 00:20:39.776 So there's, curricular materials around you, expectations, policy and I'm happy to be a part of a system where I'm trying to apply those materials in a certain way. 00:20:39.776 --> 00:20:40.076 Right. 00:20:40.126 --> 00:20:44.626 As I mentioned earlier, I've worked with some ed reform around quality materials in this state before. 00:20:44.746 --> 00:20:45.856 So I'm a fan of materials. 00:20:45.886 --> 00:20:46.936 I'm happy to look at materials. 00:20:47.146 --> 00:20:49.726 However, when I arrived, I'm kind of a philosophical guy. 00:20:49.756 --> 00:20:57.206 I don't know if you mentioned that at all, gene, but when I arrived in the classroom in again, in August of September I started to question. 00:20:57.456 --> 00:20:58.086 The questions. 00:20:58.086 --> 00:21:00.246 I know that sounds pretty Socratic maybe, right? 00:21:00.456 --> 00:21:05.236 But like, thinking about what a claim really is and a claim needs to be defensible, right? 00:21:05.236 --> 00:21:07.006 So there's some questions that aren't claim worthy. 00:21:07.126 --> 00:21:10.936 So I started I started questioning, being skeptical Socratic in some ways, right? 00:21:11.236 --> 00:21:15.196 About the questions that our materials were asking of kids. 00:21:15.596 --> 00:21:23.311 And I really, it was really a difficult time for me trying to figure out, like if I'm at, like oftentimes I'll ask kids to write to a question and then they're just like, where do I start? 00:21:23.341 --> 00:21:24.211 What do I say? 00:21:24.391 --> 00:21:24.481 Yeah. 00:21:24.511 --> 00:21:28.921 And I wanted to afford them better opportunities to express whatever their thinking was. 00:21:29.171 --> 00:21:30.161 So I had to kind of figure out. 00:21:30.816 --> 00:21:31.866 What is a claim? 00:21:31.996 --> 00:21:35.896 Or like what is some questions are not worthy of making a claim, right? 00:21:35.896 --> 00:21:39.881 It's not defensible or not whether or not we can argue that the earth is a sphere. 00:21:40.061 --> 00:21:41.291 That's not a defensible claim. 00:21:41.321 --> 00:21:45.311 There's like a preponderance of evidence that makes that no longer a debatable proposition. 00:21:45.311 --> 00:21:53.206 I recognize the conspiracy theories that abound but I think that's there's a preponderance of evidence that makes it more of a convergent question. 00:21:53.356 --> 00:21:56.626 There's not a divergence of answers there Claim questions. 00:21:56.831 --> 00:21:59.651 Offer the opportunity for a divergence of answers, right? 00:21:59.741 --> 00:22:02.021 That's why they demand evidence and reasoning. 00:22:02.181 --> 00:22:09.591 So the questions themselves need to be ripe enough that they di that they can offer differences in the claims. 00:22:09.771 --> 00:22:16.231 Maybe there's not a wide variety of claims, you know, but there's, at least you can make a couple different claims in that context. 00:22:16.231 --> 00:22:18.661 That's why they need to be substantiated with evidence and reasoning. 00:22:18.881 --> 00:22:22.421 So I reckoned a lot with what a claim was and what a claim wasn't. 00:22:22.591 --> 00:22:27.161 Trying to think through in our curricular materials, what questions we were asking kids. 00:22:27.311 --> 00:22:33.531 And then that helped me kind of come to this place where, like you're saying oftentimes you give kids a question and you're like, where do I start? 00:22:33.531 --> 00:22:34.401 Like, what's the ingredient? 00:22:34.401 --> 00:22:35.751 What ingredients do you like me to use? 00:22:35.751 --> 00:22:36.591 What's your acronym? 00:22:36.781 --> 00:22:37.801 Tell me, you know? 00:22:37.991 --> 00:22:39.221 So rather than doing that. 00:22:39.436 --> 00:22:43.246 Once I kind of figured out, okay, here's claim worthy questions, how can I go? 00:22:43.306 --> 00:22:49.966 That's when I found Sara Tino's blog and what she talks about is how to help kids write better paragraphs. 00:22:50.146 --> 00:22:55.176 Here's a process, and I've shared with you the steps that she has and one of her techniques is. 00:22:55.351 --> 00:22:59.821 Give the kids a topic sentence, and then they have to build the paragraph from there. 00:22:59.911 --> 00:23:02.551 So I've been really inspired by quite a few of her pieces. 00:23:02.551 --> 00:23:04.891 I haven't even dug all the way into a lot of her work. 00:23:05.141 --> 00:23:15.016 But that really has shifted the game for me and how I think about stepwise claim, evidence, reasoning, writing, instruct argument instruction, is really what she calls it. 00:23:15.036 --> 00:23:16.016 Uh, Argumentation. 00:23:21.592 --> 00:23:30.850 So taking that and then going back to what you said about, I'm gonna give the kids nine pieces of evidence and they're gonna, they're gonna tell me if that's good evidence or not. 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:31.570 Yeah. 00:23:31.570 --> 00:23:36.580 And do you have any instruction prior to that? 00:23:36.580 --> 00:23:40.000 And the reason that I say that is because if they're gonna write a paper. 00:23:40.760 --> 00:23:43.160 If they're gonna write a paper, just do some writing. 00:23:43.400 --> 00:23:43.730 Okay. 00:23:43.730 --> 00:23:43.820 Yeah. 00:23:44.150 --> 00:23:47.100 And you're gonna get it, you're gonna do some evaluation. 00:23:47.370 --> 00:23:55.040 So obviously in your head, whether it is you have written it out or shared it with the kids, you have some sort of rubric in your head Yeah. 00:23:55.370 --> 00:23:56.840 Of what's good evidence or not. 00:23:57.260 --> 00:24:02.150 Now, do you share that with the kids ahead of time as they're doing this process? 00:24:02.815 --> 00:24:04.045 Can I ask you a follow up? 00:24:04.045 --> 00:24:06.235 Like, the, what do you mean by good evidence? 00:24:06.335 --> 00:24:08.825 I don't know you, you're the one who gave that to the kids. 00:24:08.855 --> 00:24:08.885 Okay. 00:24:08.885 --> 00:24:12.005 You gave them, here's the claim and here's nine pieces of evidence. 00:24:12.010 --> 00:24:12.070 Yeah. 00:24:12.070 --> 00:24:14.375 So sure you, I want you to tell me which is good or not. 00:24:14.375 --> 00:24:16.775 So I'll go back to Sara Ten's framework. 00:24:16.775 --> 00:24:17.015 Right. 00:24:17.015 --> 00:24:23.795 So in her framework, the first step is given claims and evidence that kids can distinguish which ones are claims and which ones are evidence. 00:24:24.125 --> 00:24:25.595 A little bit further down. 00:24:25.755 --> 00:24:30.815 Maybe the second step, I don't have it in front of me right now, but it's like, can you match evidence with their claims? 00:24:30.865 --> 00:24:36.815 So, given a set of claims and evidence, can you figure out which claims go with which evidence? 00:24:36.815 --> 00:24:37.665 So, so, so, so, excuse me. 00:24:37.665 --> 00:24:42.440 So even at this point, we're not even talking about quality, we're just talking about identifying. 00:24:42.965 --> 00:24:43.295 Nope. 00:24:43.355 --> 00:24:43.595 Yep. 00:24:43.625 --> 00:24:47.315 We're just talking about the coordination of them, so to speak, if that makes sense. 00:24:47.315 --> 00:24:47.465 Right. 00:24:47.465 --> 00:24:47.710 Got yes. 00:24:47.715 --> 00:24:47.795 Yes. 00:24:47.795 --> 00:24:49.445 So I'll bring it back to would you rather, right. 00:24:49.445 --> 00:24:57.695 So if you are choosing, would you rather live in a giant mansion with a bunch of strangers, or would you rather live in a tall small little house where you know all your neighbors? 00:24:57.695 --> 00:25:00.245 That's the question I asked my kids in that context. 00:25:00.515 --> 00:25:02.795 When kids pick a side, they're making a claim. 00:25:02.885 --> 00:25:04.530 They're saying, I would rather live in a mansion. 00:25:05.150 --> 00:25:05.990 So that's my claim. 00:25:06.020 --> 00:25:07.040 It's a divergent question. 00:25:07.040 --> 00:25:08.510 You can answer something different. 00:25:08.730 --> 00:25:10.020 You can justify a different claim. 00:25:10.050 --> 00:25:12.810 And then when I ask them, why are you standing on that side of the room? 00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:13.980 Why are you standing there? 00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:14.730 That's their reasoning. 00:25:14.790 --> 00:25:18.730 That's their so they naturally already, I mean, if you've been around kids, they argue a lot. 00:25:18.730 --> 00:25:19.060 I don't know. 00:25:19.060 --> 00:25:20.470 Mine argue all the time, they're seven. 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:22.820 So they have facility would argumentation. 00:25:23.020 --> 00:25:30.450 It's just like turning that into like a literary argument in an English classroom or a, a more kind of cons coordinated argument is where we go. 00:25:30.540 --> 00:25:37.110 So I like to, I do provide some instruction in a sense of like, I'm asking you to make a claim and I'm asking you to justify it. 00:25:37.350 --> 00:25:41.490 Now, the reason why I was asking you about like what good evidence is, it really depends on the claim. 00:25:41.760 --> 00:25:42.540 It really does. 00:25:42.600 --> 00:25:46.780 So wherever you're trying to go 'cause they have to work in concert they're working together. 00:25:46.780 --> 00:25:47.080 Right. 00:25:47.080 --> 00:26:00.650 So, sometimes I knew, like if I give them a list, obviously if I've given 'em a claim and I give 'em some pieces of evidence, I've done some vetting there to determine what I think are the pieces of evidence that are strong, most strongly supportive of that particular claim. 00:26:00.890 --> 00:26:03.320 But I suppose the instruction is more around. 00:26:04.060 --> 00:26:16.980 Trying to coordinate those two pieces together rather than within the I guess I'm supporting like kids with their finding of good evidence by bringing them through the process for particular claims. 00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:19.840 But it's hard to kind of separate the pieces and parts. 00:26:19.990 --> 00:26:23.190 It's you know, it really is because we. 00:26:23.401 --> 00:26:31.871 Even though there can be a divergent opinion regarding a claim once the claim is made, there is better evidence than others. 00:26:31.961 --> 00:26:32.381 That's it. 00:26:32.471 --> 00:26:32.681 Yes. 00:26:32.681 --> 00:26:39.106 And you know, you know, and so you know that, and you again, as an educated person, as the teacher that's in your head. 00:26:40.096 --> 00:26:45.316 Are we cheating if we tell the kids, Hey, you know what, here was the claim, here's the evidence. 00:26:45.436 --> 00:26:50.146 Can you point to where in that claim this evidence actually applies? 00:26:50.146 --> 00:26:50.206 Yeah. 00:26:50.626 --> 00:26:53.686 I mean, you know, do you develop criteria like that for them? 00:26:53.866 --> 00:26:58.606 I guess what I what I'm really going for here is to get your opinion about. 00:26:59.316 --> 00:27:03.126 What you had talked about in one of your blogs about breaking things down. 00:27:03.396 --> 00:27:03.546 Yeah. 00:27:03.546 --> 00:27:04.206 Being more direct. 00:27:04.206 --> 00:27:06.366 It was a lot of Rose, I think it was all about Rosen. 00:27:06.366 --> 00:27:06.696 Schein. 00:27:07.026 --> 00:27:07.326 Yeah. 00:27:07.326 --> 00:27:12.381 And I think as I see this writing and what you've described, whether it is guys. 00:27:12.961 --> 00:27:16.931 Here's a three point rubric on how to determine whether this is good or not. 00:27:17.411 --> 00:27:20.351 Or it's just guys, does the evidence make sense? 00:27:20.351 --> 00:27:21.221 Does it connect? 00:27:21.341 --> 00:27:21.401 Yeah. 00:27:21.581 --> 00:27:22.541 Is it convincing? 00:27:22.541 --> 00:27:24.281 So would you change your mind about it? 00:27:24.491 --> 00:27:25.996 So, I'm res, I'm resistant. 00:27:26.026 --> 00:27:30.636 Like I do use a rubric for paragraph construction, which I've taken from Sarah T's work, right? 00:27:30.636 --> 00:27:38.556 So her rubric talks about like, topic sentence like pieces of evidence, integration, commentary, a lot of things that are not a field of what we do, but. 00:27:39.091 --> 00:27:44.116 The thing that something that's really kind of prominent for me is in the. 00:27:44.801 --> 00:27:46.841 Like you said a little while ago. 00:27:46.841 --> 00:27:47.141 Right. 00:27:47.141 --> 00:27:58.541 So if we give kids like CER and ask them to answer a question, if a kid throws out a claim that is difficult to defend, then you end up with a paper that is kind of like going in every single direction. 00:27:58.541 --> 00:27:58.601 Yeah. 00:27:58.601 --> 00:28:01.151 And it's hard to provide intentional feedback there. 00:28:01.951 --> 00:28:10.846 So I don't necessarily give them criteria for how to find the like this is the hard and fast generalizable criteria of good evidence. 00:28:11.026 --> 00:28:12.226 It really is dependent. 00:28:12.316 --> 00:28:16.086 And one thing that Sarah 10 talks about, she uses this mean mom skit. 00:28:16.296 --> 00:28:23.616 So she says, Hey, imagine if you're a kid and you're trying to go to the movies, so you're trying to convince your caregiver, your parent, whomever it is, that you can go to the movies. 00:28:23.916 --> 00:28:26.286 So you say to your mom, Hey, I did all my chores. 00:28:26.346 --> 00:28:27.306 Can I go to the movies? 00:28:27.426 --> 00:28:29.676 And your mom says you're supposed to do your chores. 00:28:29.766 --> 00:28:30.306 No. 00:28:30.516 --> 00:28:30.906 Right? 00:28:31.026 --> 00:28:35.136 So that's one way to make an argument that's not producing a lot of reasoning, right? 00:28:35.136 --> 00:28:38.736 So again, this is to my case that evidence and reasoning are interrelated. 00:28:38.986 --> 00:28:40.826 And then she says, well, imagine if you said this, Hey. 00:28:41.336 --> 00:28:49.381 So, hey mom, I did all my chores to go to the movies this weekend also, so and so who invited me said said that her mom can bring me there. 00:28:49.501 --> 00:28:53.401 And that demonstrates that I'm like keeping up with everything and can I go to the movies? 00:28:53.491 --> 00:28:55.321 And then mom says, yeah, what's their number? 00:28:55.321 --> 00:28:59.941 I'm gonna call 'em right now so I'm not reproducing her anecdote as well as she does. 00:29:00.001 --> 00:29:02.101 And we can find the blog where she reproduces this. 00:29:02.251 --> 00:29:05.791 But her point is that just finding the right evidence. 00:29:06.121 --> 00:29:13.591 Is not gonna substantiate your claim that evidence and reasoning are interrelated and we need to do the work of making the point. 00:29:13.591 --> 00:29:24.971 Like another thing she says is that if you have good reasoning, you can turn okay evidence into really just like, a really compelling case for your claim or vice versa. 00:29:25.216 --> 00:29:28.426 If you have good evidence and your reasoning is not very good, then it can kind of disintegrate. 00:29:28.851 --> 00:29:33.261 So, that's why I find it difficult to name without the claim there. 00:29:33.476 --> 00:29:35.666 A hard and fast kind of set of criteria. 00:29:35.846 --> 00:29:37.496 It really depends. 00:29:37.496 --> 00:29:38.726 They're all interrelated. 00:29:38.726 --> 00:29:46.391 The argument that I'm making, the thing the reasons, the evidence that I'm citing and the rationale that I'm giving about why they're connected. 00:29:47.221 --> 00:29:53.611 So, okay, so when you're teaching this, would you might, is, was that an example that you might use the mom conversation? 00:29:53.761 --> 00:30:03.726 Yeah, so I'm starting to try to inter integrate and that's what some of the folks I've been following really kind of, emphasize is trying to get kids to think about argumentation in a way that's successful. 00:30:03.816 --> 00:30:04.836 'cause like I said, a little while ago. 00:30:05.126 --> 00:30:06.146 Kids love to argue. 00:30:06.326 --> 00:30:08.096 They're arguing with all each other all the time. 00:30:08.216 --> 00:30:12.656 If you put a, would you rather question like, would you rather wear sweatpants or whether you rather wear jeans? 00:30:12.836 --> 00:30:14.006 Somebody's gonna pick a side. 00:30:14.156 --> 00:30:14.726 Guess what? 00:30:14.726 --> 00:30:15.596 You just made a claim. 00:30:15.746 --> 00:30:18.236 I'm asking you now, Jean, why'd you go to the jeans side? 00:30:18.516 --> 00:30:19.596 Because it rhymes with your name. 00:30:19.596 --> 00:30:19.986 I don't know. 00:30:20.016 --> 00:30:21.216 Can you gimme a justification? 00:30:21.431 --> 00:30:29.131 And what I'm, what I make vi, what I'm trying to make ta more apparent to the kids in the room is that those things are interrelated. 00:30:29.131 --> 00:30:34.771 Like you pick the side because you feel like you have evidence 'cause you're, feel like you have a rationale. 00:30:34.831 --> 00:30:37.531 And when we go into a text, we're doing the same thing. 00:30:37.741 --> 00:30:38.611 Of course you're gonna. 00:30:39.156 --> 00:30:59.421 Pick kind of where you're going with a claim but then I can help you kind of marshal your evidence and your reasoning in a way that can convince someone or defend that, that claim in the ways that that I recognize or that literary argumentation may recognize, or us as an 11th grade faculty may recognize as substantive. 00:31:00.841 --> 00:31:05.701 You know, I, I kinda laugh going back to when you talked about Socratic seminars. 00:31:05.881 --> 00:31:06.211 Yeah. 00:31:06.451 --> 00:31:14.491 You know, I've observed, you know, a few classrooms, you know, that trying to do the Socratic seminar in the, you know, with those protocols that you suggested. 00:31:15.391 --> 00:31:23.381 And I've never seen it go very well, you know, you know, because part of the protocol is for the teacher to stay out as much as possible. 00:31:23.651 --> 00:31:24.011 Yeah. 00:31:24.111 --> 00:31:25.041 And it's just deadly. 00:31:25.041 --> 00:31:30.766 And I always remind teachers who wanna do this, I said, you have to remember, I. They killed Socrates. 00:31:32.326 --> 00:31:35.246 So, you know, don't get wedded, don't get wedded to this. 00:31:35.786 --> 00:31:35.996 Fair enough. 00:31:35.996 --> 00:31:38.606 So, okay, so, so that was an example. 00:31:38.606 --> 00:31:40.346 We, it was an, what we just talked about. 00:31:40.346 --> 00:31:44.786 It was a lengthy discussion about writing, but it was really an example of. 00:31:45.311 --> 00:31:48.021 What you realized when you came back. 00:31:48.261 --> 00:31:48.381 Yeah. 00:31:48.381 --> 00:31:49.101 That, wow. 00:31:49.156 --> 00:31:52.116 I need to break things down a little bit further. 00:31:52.116 --> 00:31:52.176 Yeah. 00:31:52.236 --> 00:31:57.546 So, so one of the things that you talked about was more dialogue prior to writing. 00:31:57.846 --> 00:31:58.176 Yeah. 00:31:58.266 --> 00:32:05.886 More choices, not making them actually come up with the evidence or the reasoning first. 00:32:06.276 --> 00:32:06.336 Yeah. 00:32:06.336 --> 00:32:10.756 It's evaluating it, seeing it, and then deciding and then making the writing. 00:32:11.761 --> 00:32:15.286 Almost a different it's a part of the, it's the end part of the process. 00:32:15.526 --> 00:32:15.616 Sure. 00:32:15.666 --> 00:32:18.246 But it's the end of the process, which. 00:32:18.891 --> 00:32:22.641 Which I'm gonna tell you is what you described doesn't always get taught. 00:32:22.701 --> 00:32:22.761 Yeah. 00:32:22.971 --> 00:32:27.531 Is that what you found when you were working with teachers, you know, during the time when you were outta the classroom? 00:32:28.011 --> 00:32:30.351 Well, it was revelatory in many ways. 00:32:30.351 --> 00:32:30.561 Right? 00:32:30.561 --> 00:32:35.121 So you gotta remember too, that 17, 18, when I left the classroom is also the year that my children were born. 00:32:35.121 --> 00:32:41.021 So going back into a teaching responsibility, I had never been a teacher of record with as a parent. 00:32:41.021 --> 00:32:43.771 And I'm not saying that I mean, we're blessed to have kids. 00:32:43.771 --> 00:32:45.991 I understand everybody has their own trajectory. 00:32:46.156 --> 00:32:52.021 But going back to a classroom with my thinking about my own kids in school buildings it just wasn't enough to not teach 'em things. 00:32:52.021 --> 00:32:52.261 Right. 00:32:52.261 --> 00:32:58.591 It wasn't an, which just felt kind of insane to give kids, to ask kids to make a claim, to a question that didn't even deserve a claim. 00:32:58.591 --> 00:33:01.201 Like, what is the narrative structure of Great Gaby? 00:33:01.261 --> 00:33:02.341 Like, that's not an argument. 00:33:02.341 --> 00:33:03.181 That's not an argument. 00:33:03.361 --> 00:33:05.071 That's like Nick narrates it. 00:33:05.131 --> 00:33:07.081 Like what do you mean to argue about that? 00:33:07.081 --> 00:33:07.981 Like, I can't say that. 00:33:08.311 --> 00:33:09.391 Gatsby narrates it. 00:33:09.481 --> 00:33:12.061 That's just an objective reality of who the narrator is of that. 00:33:12.271 --> 00:33:16.781 So to clarify that terminology, at least in my own mind was a big part of it. 00:33:16.841 --> 00:33:21.611 And it was because I didn't want to throw stuff at kids that was just indecipherable and incoherent. 00:33:21.791 --> 00:33:35.891 Whereas before, when I was out there and I wasn't thinking about like maybe it was my kids in a room or I didn't have a deeper awareness of every kid who's arriving 16 years old has caregivers and folks around them that have helped them get to this point in their lives, you know? 00:33:35.891 --> 00:33:37.241 So I take that seriously. 00:33:37.551 --> 00:33:48.736 When I went back in the fall, it was just not good enough to not teach them how a sentence works or to not support them with kind of zooming in on parts of Fitzgerald's prose, which are really confounding and confusing. 00:33:48.956 --> 00:33:53.696 So I really walked in knowing that I wanted to be thinking about Rosenstein. 00:33:53.871 --> 00:33:56.901 And that is difficult to apply in an English language arts classroom. 00:33:57.171 --> 00:34:04.611 But like trying to find, and like, it was not good enough to just ask kids to follow along with me and a graphic organizer and pretend like you understand in the text. 00:34:04.831 --> 00:34:10.771 I get that may be a little bit of a straw man on some ELA instruction, but that's not where I wanted to go. 00:34:10.961 --> 00:34:14.776 So I've been trying to find a place to feel like not just feel like, but. 00:34:15.316 --> 00:34:18.616 And I'm collecting more evidence now with their writing and exit tickets and stuff. 00:34:18.766 --> 00:34:23.056 And like, I feel justified in saying that I'm teaching them much more than I ever had in my career. 00:34:23.206 --> 00:34:24.676 And I see the evidence of that. 00:34:24.811 --> 00:34:38.461 So for me it was really more about like, I need to break this into steps because I'm not just gonna throw kids a CER and ask 'em to fill out a thing and then go run around and do postmortem, try to fix some wacky claims that didn't make sense about who narrated this. 00:34:38.591 --> 00:34:41.951 So I was really trying to be much more intentional about breaking that process down. 00:34:42.602 --> 00:34:46.693 when you came back and started doing the work, you started blogging right away. 00:34:46.693 --> 00:34:50.440 You, I mean, somebody like you, I always ask them, when do you have time to watch tv? 00:34:53.050 --> 00:35:02.080 But I mean, you're constantly working, thinking, writing, and as I was reading your blogs, coming back and tell me if I'm interpreting them wrong, but I was interpreting them. 00:35:02.620 --> 00:35:08.830 In a way that, you know, I came in here guns blazing, man, I'm gonna really kick butt. 00:35:08.980 --> 00:35:12.130 And then there was a little bit of a reality check. 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:14.050 Oh yeah, well, not a little, no. 00:35:14.050 --> 00:35:19.270 It was like somebody walked by me in a lounge earlier today at the copy machine and I was like, Hey, how's it going? 00:35:19.430 --> 00:35:21.830 He had started this year at that school as well. 00:35:22.285 --> 00:35:23.935 It had come from another school, not a new teacher. 00:35:24.155 --> 00:35:25.355 And he was like, pretty good. 00:35:25.605 --> 00:35:26.895 And he asked me, how's it going? 00:35:26.895 --> 00:35:28.065 And I said you know, pretty good. 00:35:28.065 --> 00:35:29.895 Like much better than the fall, you know? 00:35:30.015 --> 00:35:36.225 So, I've been drawn to Mary Kennedy, who was a education writer for a long period of time, education researcher. 00:35:36.790 --> 00:35:39.100 And she wrote a book called Inside Teaching. 00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:48.170 And it's about how the chaotic reality of schooling is a difficult thing for education reform to kind of butt up against at least difficult, right? 00:35:48.395 --> 00:35:53.320 So, her writing and thinking has had become prominent, but when I went back into classroom, I was not prepared. 00:35:53.600 --> 00:35:54.360 I was not prepared. 00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:55.705 I had seven and a half years lap. 00:35:56.465 --> 00:36:10.095 In aggressive research of teenagers on how they're gonna check you for your expectation, how they're gonna use the materials that they're afforded with that the device that they're issued the ways that they would ask you a million questions and try to test what you would or wouldn't allow them to do. 00:36:10.640 --> 00:36:11.930 Ways to motivate them. 00:36:11.980 --> 00:36:15.490 I've written a blog in the fall about like thinking like, yo, I like these trees. 00:36:15.490 --> 00:36:19.690 I don't know if you can see on the podcast, there's some cypress trees behind me in my virtual background. 00:36:19.870 --> 00:36:26.740 And I was like, yeah, I'll get to go on August and hang out with these kids and talk about how much I love cypress trees in Louisiana. 00:36:26.890 --> 00:36:31.090 And thinking that kids would be reasonable, but they aren't, and I'm not throwing shade. 00:36:31.595 --> 00:36:32.795 I'm just saying like, you're a kid. 00:36:32.855 --> 00:36:33.725 You're 16 years old. 00:36:33.755 --> 00:36:33.875 Yeah. 00:36:33.875 --> 00:36:34.805 You're not an adult. 00:36:35.195 --> 00:36:35.345 Yeah. 00:36:35.345 --> 00:36:41.225 So I had that weird, that expectation kind of trafficking more among adults for a long period of time. 00:36:41.375 --> 00:36:46.315 I had lost touch with the developing minds of high school kids and what that means. 00:36:46.435 --> 00:36:54.445 So it was a, it was rough, you know, a lot of the things that I had you know, happily walked into other folks schools and said like, Hey, this is a great idea. 00:36:54.735 --> 00:37:00.955 I try to be cognizant of the challenges and remember some of the things from my time in the classroom. 00:37:01.145 --> 00:37:13.025 But you lose touch of that stuff very easily and the wins and the pressures and the pieces and parts of teaching do change so dynamically, moment to moment, day to day, month to month, year to year, obviously that if you're outta step. 00:37:13.535 --> 00:37:14.945 It takes a period of time. 00:37:15.165 --> 00:37:27.415 So yeah, I was kind of, shocked in many ways about the the reality the pressure of classroom teaching and the myriad kind of, contingencies variables, things hitting you from every direction that are a part of that. 00:37:27.415 --> 00:37:28.345 So I'd lost touch with that. 00:37:28.345 --> 00:37:29.875 So, yeah, it was kind of, it was kind of difficult. 00:37:29.875 --> 00:37:29.995 Yeah. 00:37:30.045 --> 00:37:31.815 You wouldn't be wrong saying that. 00:37:31.815 --> 00:37:33.585 You get that vibe from how I wrote about it. 00:37:34.260 --> 00:37:38.280 So, so when so you walk in and you're experiencing all of these things. 00:37:38.700 --> 00:37:48.120 Did your experiences in the time out of the classroom, science of learning all the things that you were doing, did that provide some sort of backstop for you? 00:37:48.120 --> 00:37:57.660 Again, I'm thinking of what you brought, facing those same challenges that you just experiences and your background versus somebody who didn't have that knowledge. 00:37:58.425 --> 00:38:00.585 What do you mean by backstop, if you don't mind me asking? 00:38:00.585 --> 00:38:10.625 I mean that if you see something if you see a kid acting a certain way or asking certain questions, like just like you said, oh, they're asking me these questions to see how far they could go. 00:38:11.820 --> 00:38:16.260 A new teacher might be asked the same questions and think, oh, these kids really like me. 00:38:16.260 --> 00:38:16.830 They we're engaging. 00:38:16.830 --> 00:38:18.000 Yeah, we're engaging. 00:38:18.060 --> 00:38:20.160 They're not in dialogue, but in a conversation. 00:38:20.160 --> 00:38:20.220 Yeah. 00:38:20.640 --> 00:38:23.670 So, so you brought a lot of, you know, a lot more experience. 00:38:23.880 --> 00:38:31.390 Like, for example, doing the writing, you know, the conversation that we just had you know, I realized I had to break these things down. 00:38:31.720 --> 00:38:31.960 Yeah. 00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:33.400 And you talked about Rosenstein. 00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:36.110 You didn't learn about Rosenstein this fall, right. 00:38:36.370 --> 00:38:36.460 Right. 00:38:36.730 --> 00:38:38.050 You brought that with you. 00:38:38.050 --> 00:38:40.090 So that's kind of the context for my question. 00:38:40.090 --> 00:38:40.210 Gotcha. 00:38:40.510 --> 00:38:41.740 No, I understand what you're saying now. 00:38:41.740 --> 00:38:42.400 Thank you for that. 00:38:42.430 --> 00:38:47.885 Jean, so I guess what I would say is, I had to, I blogged about this too. 00:38:47.915 --> 00:38:49.835 My wife really helped me when I went back to teaching. 00:38:49.835 --> 00:38:50.915 She still helps me all the time. 00:38:50.915 --> 00:38:51.725 She's always helping me. 00:38:51.725 --> 00:38:52.515 Like she's the best. 00:38:52.515 --> 00:38:53.265 I try to help her. 00:38:53.265 --> 00:38:53.595 I don't know. 00:38:53.595 --> 00:38:54.255 She's incredible. 00:38:54.255 --> 00:38:56.085 But she works in a garden a lot. 00:38:56.805 --> 00:39:00.245 And I don't know if you ever reckon with perennials in your garden. 00:39:00.635 --> 00:39:08.235 The advice that folks give to folks who are trying to plant some perennials is that the first year you plant 'em, that they sleep and then they creep and then they leap. 00:39:08.235 --> 00:39:09.555 So she told me a lot about that. 00:39:09.555 --> 00:39:12.495 So the reason why I say that is it took me. 00:39:12.930 --> 00:39:14.525 I had to live through a semester. 00:39:15.600 --> 00:39:17.790 To see how all the parts were fitting together. 00:39:18.090 --> 00:39:20.190 Of course, I had some backstop pieces. 00:39:20.550 --> 00:39:25.530 I knew that threshold in the first five minutes was the thing I needed to figure out. 00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:27.900 I knew that 'cause of my experience. 00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:35.170 I had worked with new teachers and I advised them around that, but then when I went back into classroom, I was like, you know, like maybe, you know, like she just send me an email da. 00:39:35.385 --> 00:39:38.450 I was like wacky ignorant in that moment. 00:39:38.450 --> 00:39:38.960 Moment. 00:39:39.240 --> 00:39:44.280 But I, I knew it what I needed to accomplish, so, I knew I needed to tidy it. 00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:47.970 It became way, even more viscerally true to me. 00:39:48.450 --> 00:39:50.190 Why the fir, the threshold? 00:39:50.660 --> 00:39:53.120 And the first five minutes are so critical in your classroom. 00:39:53.370 --> 00:39:54.780 And I knew that to your point. 00:39:55.140 --> 00:40:01.050 I was just like, I had to figure out how to do it with these kids at this building in this year with these devices, et cetera. 00:40:01.170 --> 00:40:03.570 So I pushed on everybody, all around me all the time. 00:40:03.570 --> 00:40:04.260 Who can I go see? 00:40:04.260 --> 00:40:05.040 Who can I go see? 00:40:05.305 --> 00:40:08.455 I went into a math classroom down the hall with some of the same kids I taught. 00:40:08.455 --> 00:40:09.985 How do you do the beginning of your class? 00:40:10.235 --> 00:40:14.555 So that, and I told her the other day how helpful that was, that to visit her for 20 minutes. 00:40:14.805 --> 00:40:26.035 So I did have a little bit of a backstop, like I knew, and I also knew that like trying to do everything at one time was gonna be impossible, that I needed to try to mitigate for some challenges one at a time. 00:40:26.305 --> 00:40:31.315 So I, how about halfway through the semester, it was like, I really need to figure out how to contain behavior. 00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:35.130 And a big ingredient there is the first five minutes. 00:40:35.310 --> 00:40:37.920 So what is happening when they come in the door? 00:40:38.350 --> 00:40:39.220 Where do they sit? 00:40:39.730 --> 00:40:40.600 What are they doing? 00:40:40.600 --> 00:40:42.490 What are their materials became? 00:40:42.550 --> 00:40:43.990 But that was all 'cause of a backstop. 00:40:43.990 --> 00:40:46.270 That wasn't me like trying to like make it up. 00:40:46.270 --> 00:40:49.450 It's because I knew, I had seen folks talk about the threshold. 00:40:49.450 --> 00:40:51.760 I'd seen folks talk about a do now on a bell ringer. 00:40:52.090 --> 00:40:55.310 And I knew that was what I needed to figure out. 00:40:55.500 --> 00:40:58.440 I just needed to tinker with it and sleep a bit, put my roots down. 00:40:58.770 --> 00:41:02.520 Figure out what was gonna work with this particular soil, these particular kids, so to speak. 00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:06.760 And then when I came back in January, it was like, I knew what I'm doing now. 00:41:06.820 --> 00:41:08.080 But I kinda had to live through it. 00:41:08.140 --> 00:41:10.720 'cause there's some things you, this is a way I describe it. 00:41:10.720 --> 00:41:12.520 I mean, Superman, that's great. 00:41:12.550 --> 00:41:16.000 He can fly and make the earth spin backwards, but I can't do that. 00:41:16.000 --> 00:41:21.400 So I could not roll back some of the things that had happened in August and September. 00:41:21.620 --> 00:41:24.080 So it became more of a forward thinking like. 00:41:24.710 --> 00:41:26.690 What will happen in the next semester. 00:41:26.900 --> 00:41:32.800 And I knew that the entry and the first activity were really the most critical pieces. 00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:34.300 So that was part of the backstop there. 00:41:34.780 --> 00:41:43.800 Well, you know, I, as you talk about, you know, what's gonna happen in the next semester, I think this is what somebody with your experience has over a newer teacher Yeah. 00:41:43.860 --> 00:41:45.495 Is that they can see the arc. Yeah. 00:41:45.495 --> 00:41:53.415 You know, like, it's not perfect now, but I noticed, you know, these couple little changes are going to bring those flowers up next spring. 00:41:53.415 --> 00:41:53.475 Yeah. 00:41:53.895 --> 00:42:02.785 And so, and so I think that's important to and that's one of the things when I work with instructional coaches and they're frustrated of how a teacher's progressing and I said, they're right where they should. 00:42:03.195 --> 00:42:03.285 Huh? 00:42:03.335 --> 00:42:05.675 That's exactly, this is so predictable. 00:42:05.675 --> 00:42:05.735 Yeah. 00:42:06.005 --> 00:42:08.915 When you have more experience, you'll see they're right where they should be. 00:42:09.185 --> 00:42:10.775 And I think that's what, yeah. 00:42:10.835 --> 00:42:13.305 You were able to bring and and to have hope. 00:42:14.065 --> 00:42:19.660 Well, you know, like, I'm glad you said that 'cause I think you're revealing something that I hadn't quite realized The extent of. 00:42:20.110 --> 00:42:28.965 And another thing I talk about with gardening with my wife is that like, if you really would, if you really wanna have a garden, you need to accept that you're gonna kill things, that things are gonna die. 00:42:29.685 --> 00:42:32.895 And I know that can be kind of macab and I'm only talking about plants right now. 00:42:32.895 --> 00:42:34.935 I'm only talking about your tomatoes or whatever. 00:42:34.935 --> 00:42:35.775 Your carrots, whatever. 00:42:35.775 --> 00:42:37.720 It's, I already killed Socrates, so it's okay, right? 00:42:37.720 --> 00:42:38.640 Bring up a few plants. 00:42:38.700 --> 00:42:39.835 So stuff is gonna die. 00:42:39.835 --> 00:42:43.675 Your orchid is gonna die, but you have a choice at that moment, right? 00:42:43.675 --> 00:42:48.745 That you're like, I don't have a green thumb, or that you're gonna end up cultivating. 00:42:48.890 --> 00:42:56.660 Something that flowers, as you mentioned a moment ago, so I say that to people frequently, especially if they're talking to me about a real literal garden. 00:42:56.840 --> 00:42:58.700 But it's not altogether dissimilar in teaching. 00:42:58.700 --> 00:43:01.190 And I appreciate you giving me a little bit of that perspective. 00:43:01.430 --> 00:43:08.960 Is that the reason why I say that in the garden is 'cause you gotta accept that some stuff's not gonna work, but there's gonna be another season, and another season is gonna arrive. 00:43:09.210 --> 00:43:13.350 And and what might not be visible now may become visible. 00:43:13.625 --> 00:43:19.475 In that season and just you trust the perennial, the, an annular kind of prospect of it. 00:43:19.475 --> 00:43:22.355 And like you're saying, like I had enough experience to know that. 00:43:23.965 --> 00:43:25.205 When I come back in the spring, da. 00:43:25.205 --> 00:43:32.375 I had told people when I worked with new teachers in the coaching capacity that at the end of your term, put a notebook on your desk. 00:43:32.375 --> 00:43:34.325 Say, Hey, this is stuff that won't happen. 00:43:34.565 --> 00:43:36.035 Stuff that will not happen again. 00:43:36.345 --> 00:43:38.655 And write it down while it's top of mind for you right now. 00:43:38.925 --> 00:43:39.045 Yeah. 00:43:39.045 --> 00:43:42.195 And when you come again, then go take your break and what you're entitled to. 00:43:42.195 --> 00:43:44.775 Take your summertime, go to the beach, go wherever you're gonna go. 00:43:45.015 --> 00:43:48.045 And when you come back, look at that list 'cause you're doing yourself a favor. 00:43:48.235 --> 00:43:48.775 But that. 00:43:49.140 --> 00:43:55.960 Tell, tells us, I mean, we have a blessing where we get to kind of reboot and start with a new group and kind of you, there's an opportunity. 00:43:55.960 --> 00:44:01.480 It's different from a lot of other vocations where you kind of can start anew with the new cohort. 00:44:01.820 --> 00:44:03.530 And that's not how it always plays out. 00:44:03.690 --> 00:44:07.420 And like you're saying, you've given me some perspective on how my experience helped me do that. 00:44:07.420 --> 00:44:11.740 And for a new teacher it may be like, Hey, I don't have a green thumb, so maybe I should do something else. 00:44:11.900 --> 00:44:14.390 And we should be thinking about that if we're trying to better support teachers. 00:44:14.870 --> 00:44:15.200 Yeah. 00:44:15.750 --> 00:44:18.630 No, rod got, I could talk to you all day. 00:44:19.230 --> 00:44:20.100 I talk to you all day. 00:44:20.100 --> 00:44:20.760 Well, lemme ask you this. 00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:22.110 Do you have any questions for me? 00:44:22.930 --> 00:44:33.550 Well, Jean, I think one thing that I'm thinking about for you is like, when how about this, the, do you find. 00:44:34.283 --> 00:44:43.453 The like, do you find a difference between like if you're walking alongside a teacher in the hallway or sitting in a meeting at a table? 00:44:43.453 --> 00:44:52.643 It, do you find a difference in the ways that you're able to support teachers whether it's in like a informal context or a formal context? 00:44:52.643 --> 00:44:55.133 Do you find that there's any distinction or difference there? 00:44:56.513 --> 00:44:58.253 My work is. 00:44:59.288 --> 00:45:02.978 When I'm working with teachers, I am an outside consultant. 00:45:03.038 --> 00:45:03.128 Mm-hmm. 00:45:03.368 --> 00:45:11.648 That has been brought in and I have been brought in to work with a teacher, and usually at the same time I'm training a coach. 00:45:12.338 --> 00:45:12.638 Okay. 00:45:13.088 --> 00:45:19.868 So most of my interactions with teachers are more in a formal setting. 00:45:20.168 --> 00:45:20.348 Sure. 00:45:20.348 --> 00:45:22.838 So for example we're gonna do a coaching cycle. 00:45:22.838 --> 00:45:29.978 We're come in and we're gonna talk about the lesson you're gonna teach, and we go do the observation, and then we, you know, we have a conversation after. 00:45:30.548 --> 00:45:33.548 And so, there's a lot of, there's a lot of structure there. 00:45:34.058 --> 00:45:37.088 So, when I see a teacher in the hall. 00:45:37.643 --> 00:45:37.943 Yeah. 00:45:37.973 --> 00:45:44.323 What my hope is, what my hope is that they have realized that I'm an ally now. 00:45:44.923 --> 00:45:44.983 Yeah. 00:45:44.983 --> 00:45:46.033 And not an enemy. 00:45:46.353 --> 00:45:53.253 And that when I say good morning I mean it as much as anybody else, you know, good morning or whatever the conversation is. 00:45:53.763 --> 00:45:56.933 But it's like anything they need to feel comfortable. 00:45:57.473 --> 00:45:59.693 They need to feel comfortable with that. 00:45:59.963 --> 00:46:08.133 And so, that, that degree of being comfortable should translate to the next time we meet in a formal setting. 00:46:08.413 --> 00:46:09.253 This is my follow up. 00:46:09.403 --> 00:46:15.523 So when, you know you're meeting with a teacher or teacher team or whatever it is, say y'all starting at 10 30. 00:46:16.493 --> 00:46:18.293 Do you arrive a little early in small talk? 00:46:18.293 --> 00:46:21.513 Do you like are, or is it only when the agenda begins? 00:46:21.513 --> 00:46:23.763 I know that's kind of a straw man way to ask it. 00:46:24.013 --> 00:46:24.373 No. 00:46:24.423 --> 00:46:26.123 I always am there early. 00:46:26.333 --> 00:46:27.473 I'm always there early. 00:46:27.743 --> 00:46:28.853 I What do you ask 'em about? 00:46:28.853 --> 00:46:29.453 What do you tell 'em? 00:46:29.483 --> 00:46:30.863 What do you ask 'em about when you get there early? 00:46:30.983 --> 00:46:33.623 You know, now let me think because I just met with some folks. 00:46:33.653 --> 00:46:33.923 Okay. 00:46:33.923 --> 00:46:37.313 Here's one of the things that I asked them, because they're always. 00:46:38.408 --> 00:46:40.448 It's always subsequent to a training. 00:46:40.943 --> 00:46:41.233 Okay. 00:46:41.238 --> 00:46:41.738 Okay. 00:46:42.068 --> 00:46:51.918 So one of my first questions is from the training, is there anything that you just didn't agree with that you just think, you know what, gene was nuts. 00:46:52.278 --> 00:46:53.088 Gene was crazy. 00:46:53.088 --> 00:46:53.148 Yeah. 00:46:53.148 --> 00:46:53.898 I just don't agree with it. 00:46:54.258 --> 00:46:55.548 Is there anything like that? 00:46:55.848 --> 00:46:57.048 Did they tell you, did they tell you? 00:46:57.078 --> 00:46:57.648 Did they say it? 00:46:57.653 --> 00:47:02.808 You know, you know, you know, rod, you know this, you know when they have something. 00:47:03.273 --> 00:47:04.868 And they're holding back Uhhuh. 00:47:05.043 --> 00:47:05.433 Okay. 00:47:05.433 --> 00:47:07.593 And I, you know, I said, yeah, don't hold back. 00:47:07.593 --> 00:47:08.943 I said, we need to get this out. 00:47:09.243 --> 00:47:09.603 Sure. 00:47:09.673 --> 00:47:13.903 I need to know what you're thinking because otherwise I'm not gonna have a conversation with a real person. 00:47:14.323 --> 00:47:21.073 I'm gonna have a conversation with somebody who you think is supposed to be sitting in that chair and we're then, we're wasting our time. 00:47:21.173 --> 00:47:25.763 Yeah, so, so I want them to be as honest as possible. 00:47:25.763 --> 00:47:30.983 In fact, there was a teacher recently who said he looked at me and he kind of smiled. 00:47:30.983 --> 00:47:33.293 And again, I'm training somebody at the same time. 00:47:33.293 --> 00:47:34.583 I'm training a district person. 00:47:34.718 --> 00:47:35.008 Yeah. 00:47:35.033 --> 00:47:38.393 And he looks at me and he looks at the district person and he says. 00:47:39.553 --> 00:47:41.953 I'd just rather not say, huh? 00:47:42.793 --> 00:47:43.213 Yeah. 00:47:43.513 --> 00:47:44.863 I said, no, that's so good. 00:47:45.073 --> 00:47:46.483 No, this is the time. 00:47:46.543 --> 00:47:47.413 This is the time. 00:47:47.413 --> 00:47:47.473 Yeah. 00:47:47.503 --> 00:47:48.583 Don't hold it back. 00:47:49.063 --> 00:47:54.133 And I think in that it's not a personal connection, it's a professional connection. 00:47:54.373 --> 00:47:55.368 Is that I'm, hey. 00:47:56.898 --> 00:47:58.728 I am valuing what you have to say. 00:47:59.148 --> 00:47:59.418 Yeah. 00:47:59.418 --> 00:48:01.128 And what of two things is gonna happen. 00:48:01.158 --> 00:48:11.568 Either I can go forward knowing that you have that in mind, or I'm gonna try to talk to you right now about the fact that I wasn't clear. 00:48:12.078 --> 00:48:13.368 If that's what you thought I said. 00:48:14.058 --> 00:48:14.118 Yeah. 00:48:14.168 --> 00:48:15.668 And most of the time it's the latter. 00:48:15.668 --> 00:48:23.518 It's like they're just, I wasn't clear because, I have enough experience to know what I'm saying is true because I've seen it over and over again. 00:48:23.698 --> 00:48:23.938 Yeah. 00:48:23.998 --> 00:48:28.798 But there are many times I don't express it well because I've said it so many times, you know? 00:48:29.278 --> 00:48:29.668 Yeah. 00:48:29.878 --> 00:48:38.978 So, well, I would say and I appreciate what you're saying, the, a moment ago you were like, Hey, so I hope when I find 'em in a hall that they know that I'm on their side. 00:48:39.158 --> 00:48:39.518 Right. 00:48:40.208 --> 00:48:43.808 So, one thing that has really kind of touched me from the. 00:48:44.603 --> 00:48:47.813 Socratic and dialogic literature, so to speak. 00:48:47.963 --> 00:48:49.253 Bine is a huge one. 00:48:49.343 --> 00:48:51.713 It talks about like, all we know is dialogue. 00:48:52.103 --> 00:48:55.553 There's no humanity without another person that I'm in dialogue with. 00:48:55.583 --> 00:49:09.323 It's, I'm always thinking about who the potential addressee is and that it's un final, that my personhood is never captured in a name or a framework that there's an open-endedness to it. 00:49:09.803 --> 00:49:11.693 So I'm inspired a lot by that by. 00:49:12.278 --> 00:49:15.608 By pushing somewhat, and I recognize your role. 00:49:15.608 --> 00:49:52.848 I've been in a professional capacity where I'm the third party that arrives at your school and I have an imperative to professionally deliver render service, X, Y, z. But the reason why I'm asking about the distinction between a formal and informal is I believe so much in a dialogic project that the, I find the informal margins and I look for the moments to walk with the teacher and ask them about the kid and ask them about the sweatshirt that they have on right now, and ask them about things that may be ancillary, at least, or tertiary to their professional practice, but are not ancillary or tertiary to their personhood. 00:49:53.538 --> 00:50:04.518 So that I can nurture a relationship, that I can let well, I don't wanna use that word, that it can be part of a project that we enco en endeavor to accomplish together. 00:50:04.768 --> 00:50:12.693 And that is an avenue that among others that I use to support teachers and help them know that I'm on their side. 00:50:12.883 --> 00:50:15.283 So I think a lot about the distinction between. 00:50:16.048 --> 00:50:22.613 When I'm here on my agenda, of course I have my responsibilities, but like, what am I doing before I get there? 00:50:23.533 --> 00:50:33.963 There's a interrelatedness between my person my personal aspects and what I'm doing vocationally, especially in an educational context. 00:50:34.203 --> 00:50:41.253 So I think a lot about, you know, like the margins, like the five minutes that I got there, and making sure that folks know that I'm a person and that they're a person. 00:50:41.403 --> 00:50:46.393 I recognize the I imperatives to keep our professional boundaries appropriate. 00:50:46.743 --> 00:50:50.673 But I believe so much in dialogue that levity is part of it. 00:50:50.913 --> 00:51:01.638 And sometimes that's a little bit out of a particular protocol or bounds, but it can go a long way to to build a humane relationship with somebody you're trying to support. 00:51:02.268 --> 00:51:04.878 And I absolutely agree with everything that you said. 00:51:05.298 --> 00:51:05.478 Yeah. 00:51:05.538 --> 00:51:07.698 And I just don't think that's my first meeting. 00:51:08.088 --> 00:51:08.478 Yeah. 00:51:08.803 --> 00:51:09.123 I feel you. 00:51:09.123 --> 00:51:09.243 Okay. 00:51:09.243 --> 00:51:12.038 Because I don't want that first meeting to think. 00:51:12.413 --> 00:51:13.913 That I'm just sucking up to them. 00:51:14.213 --> 00:51:14.543 Yeah. 00:51:14.563 --> 00:51:15.483 I want first meeting. 00:51:15.603 --> 00:51:18.888 I want my first meeting to be, this guy's not gonna waste my time. 00:51:18.918 --> 00:51:21.198 This guy's a professional later. 00:51:21.828 --> 00:51:22.738 I, and when they walk out. 00:51:24.048 --> 00:51:24.378 Right. 00:51:24.678 --> 00:51:26.418 Are those your same running shoes that you wear? 00:51:26.418 --> 00:51:28.218 You know, but not initially. 00:51:28.518 --> 00:51:29.568 Not initially, yeah. 00:51:29.698 --> 00:51:31.198 Because No, you're, I agree with that. 00:51:31.198 --> 00:51:31.558 You're right. 00:51:31.558 --> 00:51:32.578 And I'm glad you pushed on that. 00:51:32.578 --> 00:51:32.788 Right. 00:51:32.788 --> 00:51:34.228 That's how I approach it with my classroom. 00:51:34.228 --> 00:51:36.688 Like the first day you come, we doing everything that you're gonna see. 00:51:36.688 --> 00:51:40.378 I'm not your friend right now, but when I asked you to leave, I'm like, those are some cool Jordans. 00:51:40.378 --> 00:51:40.798 You know what I mean? 00:51:40.798 --> 00:51:40.858 Yeah. 00:51:40.858 --> 00:51:42.208 What's going on with this track team? 00:51:42.388 --> 00:51:42.958 That kind of thing. 00:51:42.958 --> 00:51:45.218 So thank you for putting, add some nuance to that. 00:51:45.218 --> 00:51:46.688 I really appreciate your time, gene. 00:51:47.018 --> 00:51:47.498 Hey. 00:51:47.813 --> 00:51:51.053 Rod, it was it was always a pleasure talking to you. 00:51:51.293 --> 00:51:54.558 And again, when you brought up, who's the guy with the B name? 00:51:54.558 --> 00:51:56.173 The team B Bine. 00:51:56.203 --> 00:51:56.493 Yeah. 00:51:56.753 --> 00:51:56.973 Box. 00:51:56.973 --> 00:51:56.993 Team Box. 00:51:57.403 --> 00:51:57.693 Okay. 00:51:57.698 --> 00:51:58.038 Okay. 00:51:58.038 --> 00:51:59.478 There's my PTSD. 00:51:59.568 --> 00:52:00.858 But you bte? 00:52:00.858 --> 00:52:02.058 I, I. Okay. 00:52:02.478 --> 00:52:02.778 Yeah. 00:52:02.778 --> 00:52:08.238 This is the kind of stuff I have at the desk, you know, on dialogue, you know, like this philosopher's book about dialogue. 00:52:08.238 --> 00:52:08.538 Anyway. 00:52:08.538 --> 00:52:08.748 Yeah. 00:52:08.748 --> 00:52:11.238 So, you know, you're reading that I gotta go watch tv. 00:52:12.318 --> 00:52:13.488 Rod we'll talk soon. 00:52:13.608 --> 00:52:14.778 Thank you so much for being up. 00:52:14.778 --> 00:52:15.948 God bless you, sir. Have a good one. 00:52:16.008 --> 00:52:16.488 You too. 00:52:17.397 --> 00:52:20.037 Gene Tavernetti: If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend. 00:52:20.337 --> 00:52:25.907 Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. 00:52:26.597 --> 00:52:36.677 You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky. 00:52:37.087 --> 00:52:37.517 Tesscg. 00:52:38.507 --> 00:52:53.877 com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.