Hello, and welcome to this Cat Chat episode of the Autism in Theology podcast. I'm Ian, and I'm here with Zoe, and we're so excited that you've joined us this week.

This podcast is a space where we'll be engaging with the latest conversations in the field of autism and theology, sharing relevant resources and promoting ways that help faith and non faith communities to enable autistic people to flourish. Our podcast episodes are released on the first Wednesday of every month, with Cat Chat episodes every third Wednesday, where your hosts share news and answer your questions.

This podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's Center for Autism and Theology, which we've shortened to CAT. And today, Zoe and I are talking about autistic representation in media, especially books, TV, and film. 

Zoe: This is something we really wanted to chat about especially a lot of um new tv shows and books are becoming a lot more normalized to have autistic characters or autistic coded characters And we just want to chat through some of these representations and what ones can be problematic but what can also be really, really helpful. I think one of the key characters we might think of when we think about autistic coded characters is Sheldon Cooper from Big Bang Theory.

And a lot of people would find that quite an unhelpful, um, representation of autism. I mean it's never actually stated that he is autistic. Um, but, um, that kind of presents autistic people as slightly odd or, um, kind of unaware of social cues or anyone else's emotions. And, um, yeah, that's not necessarily a representation of all autistic people, but then that, because we're so used to that character, that can become what we think of.

Um, and yeah, these things aren't necessarily helpful. 

Ian: Yeah. I think, you know, to me, part of the problem is And there are a couple of issues around Sheldon Cooper in particular, and I feel like it's important to talk about both of them, right? One is that it becomes so pervasive, so ubiquitous, that that becomes everyone's conception of what autism is, right?

And in an earlier generation for people, that autistic idea was Rain Man, right? And Rain Man isn't necessarily a, uh, I mean, it's not a great movie. Um, there's nothing wrong necessarily with that as a singular idea of what autism is, as long as you have other models, right, of what autistic people can be like.

If you think every autistic person is like Rain Man, well, guess what? You're wrong, and that's a problem. That's a problematic construction of autism. If you understand that Rain Man is autistic, and, and represents one way that autism can present, that's less of a problem, right? And Sheldon Cooper is this pervasive example because so many people watch Big Bang Theory that they have, they have set up Sheldon Cooper as the model for what autism means.

And if you don't align with that, then are you really autistic, right? And that's, that's a big part of the problem. 

Zoe: Yeah, and that's the risk with these caricatures, caricatures? Is that like, you then think, oh well, that's What an autistic person's like. I'm not like that. So therefore, what is going on in my life?

Like what is this I'm experiencing? And that's dangerous, isn't it? And can cause real identity shifts. Or the other thing, if you say you're autistic, people assume that that is who you're like. Exactly. 

Exactly. And especially because it's based on a Sheldon Cooper's character is based on Oh, well, I'll just say this.

The other problem around Sheldon Cooper is the creators have very deliberately said, he's not actually autistic, right? And every time it comes up, they say, no, he's not autistic. But the problem is he is very much autistic coded in terms of a, a particular presentation of autism. That is, that is the stereotypical, what used to be Asperger's, right?

Um, this idea of someone who's like slightly socially awkward. Um, very sort of forthright and, and misses sarcasm, those sorts of things. So they're trucking in autistic stereotypes without actually committing to the bit, so to speak, without actually saying, yes, he's autistic and facing potential criticism for that.

They want to, they want to distance themselves from it while creating an autistic coded character. And to me, that's a problem, right? So you can either say. Yes, he is autistic and that's why we've created him this way. Um, or no, he's not autistic, but, but then the problem is you've still, you've still created a character that a lot of people think, Oh, that's, he's autistic, right?

Zoe: Yeah. And then I just thinking kind of slightly different to that, but along a similar line, when you start to do that, you then have people trying to diagnose other characters and stuff as autistic. Um, I've seen. kind of conversations around Belle in Beauty and the Beast Disney film that she's autistic because she likes reading, she doesn't like socializing, um, and then ends up with these, like, getting on with these odd furniture characters.

And again, you're like, Is it that deep though? And obviously Disney is now moving towards deliberately being inclusive of different characters, but that kind of thing as well, it just, like, when you have these autistic coded characters that you don't quite state are autistic, but kind of buy into that stereotype, people then start to do it with everyone else.

Ian: But, but I'll say one of the things that can be good about that is if you have, if you, if you sort of normalize diversity, right? So you have characters that are autistic coded or, or quirky or eccentric or whatever you want to call them that don't fit into this sort of stereotypical mold.

The good thing about that is for, for, You know, for me, for example, before I was diagnosed autistic, I gravitated toward a lot of those autistic coded characters, because I didn't know that I was autistic, and maybe if they were explicitly autistic, I either would have not gravitated toward them as much, or I would have thought, well, that's, that's interesting that I'm, that I, that I feel an affinity for all these autistic characters, so maybe I would have figured it out sooner.

But, but what's, I, I, I don't, I don't necessarily have a problem with autistic people identifying with autistic coded characters and saying, yeah, I, I maybe not, maybe they're not canonically within the universe of, of the creator's mind actually autistic. And yet, um, to me, they seem very autistic and I, and I identify with them.

So I, I recognize, I mean, what far better is, actually lifting up autistic creators who have deliberately written autistic characters, um, that present complex and, and multifaceted presentations of autism in media. But I also don't hate autistic coded characters and, and autistic people gravitating toward those too.

Zoe: No, that's a very fair point. And yeah, I wonder if you want to recommend some of these like autistic coded characters that you can think of who you feel like you resonated with before you realized you were autistic or after.,

Ian: yeah. So a couple of books that I read as a kid, um, Extremely loud and incredibly close by Jonathan Safran Foer, uh, the main character in that is very autistic coded.

Um, I, I, I really sort of gravitated toward that. Same with the curious incident of the dog in the nighttime. Um, I think the blurb now actually mentions Asperger's on that book, but it's not part of the story. At all. Um, there's also, uh, just in, in shows. I don't know if you've seen, this is like a crime procedural, but there's a show called bones that has a forensic pathologist named Dr.

Temperance Brennan, whose nickname is bones. And she is, I mean, she is thoroughly autistic coded. And so like, one of the things that I actually, I mean, I have very deliberately picked up from her is that people will make pop culture references and she'll just straight face say, I don't know what that means.

And like, just the, just the self confidence of being able to say, I don't understand what you're, what you're talking about was huge for me, right? And it's like, it's a throwaway show. It's not like, it's not going to win any awards. I don't want to tell you that it's the, it's the best show you'll ever watch, but just having a character that was that confident in being ignorant of stuff, right?

I was like, this is, that was, that was really, Um, actually empowering for me in a way. 

Zoe: Yeah, and it just shows the power of these things. Like, if you can get it right and not kind of create unhelpful caricatures. If you can get it right, it can be so powerful for a lot of people and help people to identify things.

It's like, it's actually okay to, um, like you said, not get references. And then that doesn't just help autistic people to feel comfortable. Other people as well. It normalizes. not fitting in to what you're expected to fit into. And that's a healthy thing regardless of who you are, isn't it? Which is, yeah, a really positive thing.

I think the other one, um, I, I don't know if any of our listeners have seen it, but Geek Girl recently was released on Netflix. It's based on a book. Um, and I find that really interesting thinking about it because the way she's presented the characters it really helps you to see that like actually this is a normal experience for it's a teenage girl she's not your stereotypical um like she's well as in the title like she's geeky but she ends up being a fashion model um And it's slightly different to your kind of usual and it just really highlights that actually it's okay like you see her having panic attacks and feeling overwhelmed on multiple occasions and it's just again that sort of like like yeah normalizing it and her It's about her holistic experience.

It's not about her being an autistic fashion model, which is really interesting. But one thing I found fascinating about it is people were saying that it wasn't an authentic autistic representation. Because this girl is a fashion model, she's not even that geeky, she just has a few very niche special interests.

Um, and the author wrote back on X saying, Well, it's based on books that were written by me, brackets autistic, about me as a teen, brackets autistic. I wrote all of Harriet for the show, still autistic, and the lead actor is autistic. It's the definition of authentic. And then she says, I think people are so used to seeing inauthentic representation, they don't recognize it when it's in front of them.

And honestly, I don't really blame them. And I just love that. Like, it just, to me, it feels like a shift and. like media representations just like what is authentic experience it's not saying like this is what this person is like it's just as you said like raising up autistic writers to show what their experience is like and kind of raise awareness for that but yeah i really recommend geek girl it's very good 

Ian: And, and one of the, I mean, part of what's really interesting about that show is, uh, the books and the show is that, um, it was all, it's all based on experience, pree diagnosis for her, right?

So it's not an explicit component to the show, which is part of, I think, why people were like, oh, it's not really authentic because it's not authentic. Explicitly made a centerpiece or, or, or a central pillar of the show, um, which is in some ways part of why I don't ever want to totally shut down autistic coded characters, right?

Because I think oftentimes if autistic coded characters are written well, they're written well by people who are not yet diagnosed, right? Or who have experience with autism and so create a character that's really sort of authentic. That they don't explicitly make autistic because they don't have the language for that, or because they're not really prepared to, to sort of name that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's an inaccurate portrayal.

Right. Um, and so there are all sorts of, I mean, there are all sorts of other autistic characters that people gravitate towards like Wednesday Adams in the Wednesday TV show. I don't know if you've seen that, um, Amelie from the movie Amelie. Eleven from Stranger Things. Um, I recently rewatched the movie Baby Driver, um, which is an Edgar Wright movie.

And I, I, I had, I had, the first time I saw it was right when it came out, which was before I was diagnosed and it just sort of always stuck with me and I really liked the movie and I couldn't really put a finger on why, and then we were watching it. Um, just like a week ago, uh, my wife and I, and I was like, Oh, it's because, it's because he's an autistic coded character, right?

It's like, it's so clearly some, a sort of character that I gravitated towards and didn't even have the language for why, but like, if you watch it now, I mean, for me, at least it's hard to say, yeah, he's definitely not autistic. He's definitely neurotypical. He just is so autistic coded in some ways. 

Zoe: That's so interesting.

I need to go back and re watch Baby Driver with that in mind. Cause I could like, now that you've said it, I'm like, okay, I can see, I can see that looking back. 

Ian: And I, and I mean, I didn't, it didn't hit me the first time around. I'm not saying that's the only way to interpret his character, but as an autistic person watching that, I'm like, oh, obviously this is why I liked it.

Cause there's an affinity there, right? Like I see some similarities between Baby and me. Um. There's also the last autistic coded character, which I feel a little nervous about mentioning, but, um, a lot of autistic people have referenced is, um, there's a series of books called the murder bot books, right?

Um, and there's, it's about a security bot, like an, an Android basically who goes haywire and, um, sort of, uh, breaks out of, It's programming and is able to sort of become freelance, um, security person and the interactions with, with the actual humans that they work with are, um, we'll just say they resonate with a lot of autistic people, right?

So it's, it's, again, it's not authentic autistic representation. It's not someone who's actually autistic. Um, but a lot of autistic people say this is what it feels like trying to relate to people, right? Um, trying to relate to neurotypicals at least. 

Zoe: Yeah, yeah. And then I think the interesting thing as well with books is like with book talk on TikTok becoming much more of a big thing and a lot of neurodivergent people are involved in that.

that kind of community. And I think that will be really interesting as well to see how that shifts um, artistic representation, artistic coded characters in books. Like if a huge driving force of who's talking about these books are neurodivergent, that'll be interesting to see what happens there. And like, will we then see more characters who are neurodivergent because That's characters that people seem to be identifying with more.

So then our authors then gonna take that on board. Like that would just be really interesting to see how that move as well impacts things. And 

Ian: someone, um, someone who's, who's been really good about that and, and been really involved with. Neurodivergent representation in his books is Rick Riordan, who wrote the Percy Jackson books.

Um, there are neurodivergent characters all throughout. And I mean, he is as prolific as any writer on earth these days. He just, it just seems like there's a new book of his out every week, but there's all sorts of neurodivergent characters in there. Um, in fact, at least in Percy Jackson books, Percy Jackson is an ADHD er.

Um, and he, he relates to I think, if I'm remembering correctly, neurodivergence to being demigods in this, in this sort of universe that he's set up. So, like, on the one hand, it's a little, I want to be careful that we're not lifting up autism as a superpower, um, but on the other, for, It's, it's youth literature, right?

Like, so there's books for kids that lift up neurodivergence, not as a shortcoming. So I have less of an issue with modeling that for kids and, and, and giving self confidence and empowerment and affirmation, you know. 

Zoe: Yeah, and it's how you do that, like, I've not seen Percy Jackson, it's one I've been meaning to watch.

But I think it would be interesting to see, like, how they sort of play that off with the fact that, like, being different can be difficult. And I assume that's not just glossed over as well, and it's, um, kind of getting in the balance of that, isn't it? Like, as you said, you don't want to go down this kind of, like, oh, like, this makes you super extra special more so than anyone else.

But also just highlighting, like, the advantages of neurodivergence. Um, and it's cool, I think, as well, like, the fact, like, storytelling is such a helpful way to do that and, um, you know, it's amazing people who can sit down and write a biography of their experience and share, like, um, All of their feelings and all of their experiences, but actually sometimes doing it in a creative way is a much more helpful way of like explaining and exploring how you experience things by being able to exaggerate things a little bit just to emphasize points and, um.

Using fantasy to do that as well. It's quite exciting and this is something I would love to see more of in academia. I've been thinking about this with my own writing, like, how can we be incorporating more creative writing into sharing about neurodivergent experiences in academia? Because it's so exciting.

Yeah, why don't we do that? 

Ian: Yeah, it's a, it's a fair question. I think it's, I, I, I think you're right in, in that, um, the, the beauty of creative writing and, and storytelling is it allows you to create a world, it allows you to imagine and envision and in some sense create a world other than the one in which we exist, right?

And if the social model of disability is in any way true, then we have a world and a society that is in some sense, antagonistic, if not inimical, toward neurodivergence and disability, right? So part of the, the importance of storytelling is, is lifting up and showing that there is a different way of doing it, and that we don't have to imagine that this world is the only possible world that exists, right?

So I do think, I think you're right. I think there's value in it. 

Zoe: Before we close this episode, it's been so much fun to chat about this. Um, is there anything else, any other recommendations that you would give Ian? 

Ian: Yes, actually there are, so there are three other shows, and unfortunately I think we're in a golden age of TV coming out, right?

So there are three other shows that I want to mention for varying degrees of Good autistic representation, right? So there's one that I, in America is called Astrid. I think in, uh, it's called Astrid de Raphael. Um, it's an originally French show that has an autistic character, um, where her Her autism is, is sort of central to the plot, um, and it's good.

It's not perfect in, in every possible way, but it's really good and, and shows a friendship between an autistic character and a neurotypical character, um, and the ways that they live with each other and respect each other. And, and it's just some, it's some really good representation. There's a Korean show called Extraordinary Attorney Woo about an autistic attorney who, um, not only does it focus on her living her life and, and, and sort of navigating being a high powered attorney while also being autistic, but it also, the cases that she handles are related to disability law.

And so it's really, it's really interesting on a couple of different levels in sort of, showing the way that society is set up and the way that that plays out interpersonally. So that's a, um, that's a really cool show. Um, the pinnacle to me, like one of the best examples that I have seen though of autistic representation is the show Dinosaur.

which had a short run, I think six episodes on Hulu. I think it's gotten picked up for another season now, but it's about a Scottish paleontologist who is autistic. Um, and she's, she's the writer. She is actually autistic. She stars in the show. So it's as authentically and actually autistic as you can possibly get.

And what's really, really beautiful about it is a, it's really, it's just really witty and funny and fantastic to watch, but also. Autism isn't the only plot point in the show, right? So it's not like everything in the world revolves around her being autistic, which is also really cool to see, right? I mean, not that I mind things being all about autism, but there's a sense in which the next step is normalizing it such that you can have autistic characters without them being like, Hey, did you know I'm autistic every time they show up on screen?

Zoe: Yeah. And I think that's a move we're seeing in like with a lot of other diversities that it's not like a thing. It's not like, oh, like did you notice that character is like, it's just like very laid back, not, you wouldn't even know that it was deliberate necessarily. It's just like a casting choice, like any other casting choice.

And um, yeah, it's cool to see that as well. But yeah, I need to watch Dinosaur, um. Because it's, well, if it's a Scottish person as well, because we don't see enough Scottish people in the media. 

Ian: Yeah. 

It's just David 

Tennant, right? Yeah. 

Zoe: Just David Tennant. Um, but yeah, no, it's been so great to chat about this episode and, um, we'll put all of our recommendations in the show notes, um, if you're interested in watching or reading any of these, but, um, yeah, that's all from us this week.