WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.029 Matt: Hey Robert, welcome to the WP Minute. 00:00:07.139 --> 00:00:07.719 Robert: you for having me. 00:00:09.319 --> 00:00:12.059 Matt: I remember you many years ago. 00:00:12.454 --> 00:00:17.274 I believe you started, which is still probably existing today, so 00:00:17.274 --> 00:00:22.384 definitely, fill us in, color in the lines as I loosely draw them on 00:00:22.384 --> 00:00:27.124 this canvas of Robert DeVore, you started a cannabis plugin, correct? 00:00:27.124 --> 00:00:28.704 And, or a theme collection. 00:00:29.214 --> 00:00:30.254 Take us down that road. 00:00:30.254 --> 00:00:35.844 I think I want to frame this conversation around like where you started with that. 00:00:36.534 --> 00:00:41.124 Fast forward to where you are today, doing all things AI, and then somewhere 00:00:41.124 --> 00:00:45.744 in the middle, break down like, wow, what a difference 20 years makes. 00:00:45.934 --> 00:00:46.134 Robert: Yeah. 00:00:46.134 --> 00:00:49.834 So when I started in like 2015, I started saying, okay, I'm going to 00:00:49.834 --> 00:00:53.004 do something on social media and like try to build a web presence. 00:00:53.004 --> 00:00:55.654 And I came out and I said, okay, I got to start building things and 00:00:55.654 --> 00:00:58.674 giving back and having something to share with the community. 00:00:58.674 --> 00:01:00.554 And it was, that was the first thing I thought of. 00:01:00.884 --> 00:01:02.224 It was nothing really out there at the time. 00:01:02.224 --> 00:01:02.814 It was like 2015. 00:01:03.444 --> 00:01:04.744 So there wasn't really nothing. 00:01:04.774 --> 00:01:06.734 It wasn't the industry that it is today. 00:01:07.194 --> 00:01:08.904 So I said, okay, I'm going to go ahead and do this. 00:01:08.904 --> 00:01:13.499 And I built what is a very Cheap looking plugin compared to where it ended up, 00:01:13.509 --> 00:01:17.049 but I built the first version of it and just got it out there and it took 00:01:17.049 --> 00:01:19.919 off and there was a lot of companies that were using it and they liked it. 00:01:19.919 --> 00:01:23.149 And then I got, well, for the nowadays terms, it's called 00:01:23.149 --> 00:01:26.629 debanked, but I got debanked so I couldn't process payments anymore. 00:01:26.629 --> 00:01:28.809 And that just, it killed all progress with it. 00:01:29.199 --> 00:01:31.729 I've been having it on the back burner, still kind of doing little things 00:01:31.729 --> 00:01:34.879 here and there to it and upgrading it, but it's just kind of sitting and 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:36.719 waiting now for federal legalization. 00:01:36.749 --> 00:01:37.899 And then I got tired of. 00:01:38.469 --> 00:01:41.549 Waiting for that and making that be the one thing I wanted to do. 00:01:41.549 --> 00:01:43.849 So I started looking at other areas to focus on. 00:01:43.849 --> 00:01:47.529 And over the years, I'm ending up in the AI world now and 00:01:47.529 --> 00:01:48.649 doing a lot more with that. 00:01:48.659 --> 00:01:52.849 So it's faster paced and there's no regulations like in the cannabis industry. 00:01:52.849 --> 00:01:56.579 So it's a little bit easier to move and just build and create things that way. 00:01:56.579 --> 00:01:59.639 Yeah. 00:01:59.814 --> 00:02:05.089 Matt: lens, 2015, cannabis getting, I don't know all the terminology, 00:02:05.089 --> 00:02:07.629 so you definitely feel it in here, but, like, I know I'm in the state of 00:02:07.629 --> 00:02:11.449 Massachusetts, it's now legal here, there are dispensaries here, I'm sure 00:02:11.449 --> 00:02:17.579 neighboring states as well, 2015, it was sort of, probably when, what I'll 00:02:17.579 --> 00:02:21.129 call, maybe not commercial dispensaries, but, like, dispensaries for the 00:02:21.129 --> 00:02:25.499 everyday person, to walk in and buy it recreationally, is probably the right 00:02:25.499 --> 00:02:29.119 term, and from the business side, did you say, well, here's an opportunity, 00:02:29.469 --> 00:02:34.529 Like, let me get in, let me get in early, but we're still waiting a decade 00:02:34.529 --> 00:02:37.209 later for this federal, adoption of it. 00:02:37.459 --> 00:02:40.019 take us down that entrepreneurial path, like what did you think? 00:02:40.019 --> 00:02:43.239 Like, did you think, I can get in early and start building this and then lots 00:02:43.239 --> 00:02:44.869 of shops will start using my plugin? 00:02:44.889 --> 00:02:45.129 Take us 00:02:45.234 --> 00:02:45.854 Robert: that was my plan. 00:02:45.854 --> 00:02:47.234 It was, I want to do something. 00:02:47.274 --> 00:02:48.904 I wanted it to be open source first. 00:02:48.904 --> 00:02:51.334 So that way, because there was nothing out there and still, I think there's 00:02:51.334 --> 00:02:52.864 still nothing really out there like that. 00:02:53.154 --> 00:02:55.444 So I wanted to have that and do something different like 00:02:55.444 --> 00:02:56.464 that and be able to give back. 00:02:56.474 --> 00:02:59.034 You can use the products without having to pay me anything. 00:02:59.034 --> 00:03:00.094 You can just go set them up. 00:03:00.094 --> 00:03:03.384 That was a big thing for me in the beginning, but I knew that there was a 00:03:03.384 --> 00:03:04.924 need for it and there was a lot of these. 00:03:04.939 --> 00:03:08.559 Bigger, like everything was way more connected and you had to jump through 00:03:08.559 --> 00:03:11.049 a lot of different hoops to be able to set everything up and use the 00:03:11.049 --> 00:03:14.959 different point of sale services, which were not really web based, they 00:03:14.969 --> 00:03:16.569 didn't have a web presence for you. 00:03:16.569 --> 00:03:20.109 So you were trying to kind of blend that back into your website and 00:03:20.369 --> 00:03:21.679 nothing was really working right. 00:03:21.679 --> 00:03:24.219 So I wanted to have something different and I could see that 00:03:24.219 --> 00:03:25.389 there was an opening for it. 00:03:25.389 --> 00:03:27.619 So I went with it and it was working really well. 00:03:27.859 --> 00:03:30.609 And if it wasn't for the debanking, I probably wouldn't be talking about 00:03:30.629 --> 00:03:32.999 AI today, it would be something, you know, it'd still be the cannabis 00:03:32.999 --> 00:03:34.339 industry because I would still be. 00:03:34.559 --> 00:03:38.269 In it and focused on it, but yeah, it was just, it was a big opportunity. 00:03:38.269 --> 00:03:39.829 I still think there's a lot of opportunity in it. 00:03:39.859 --> 00:03:43.259 It's just a matter of waiting for the federal legal legalization. 00:03:43.289 --> 00:03:46.129 And then if you're willing to jump through like a thousand different 00:03:46.139 --> 00:03:49.739 hoops and just to get everything off the ground, then it's still viable, 00:03:49.739 --> 00:03:52.869 but you got to have, from what I'm gathering, you're going to have more 00:03:52.869 --> 00:03:55.069 money up front now to jump in and play. 00:03:55.069 --> 00:03:57.749 It's not as open as it was 10 years ago. 00:03:59.649 --> 00:04:01.329 Matt: Can we talk about this debanking thing really quick? 00:04:01.329 --> 00:04:02.749 Is this, or is this a sore subject? 00:04:02.844 --> 00:04:03.124 Robert: by me. 00:04:03.424 --> 00:04:05.154 I'm an open book, so, yeah. 00:04:05.434 --> 00:04:05.964 Matt: All right. 00:04:06.004 --> 00:04:09.734 So, so we, so, you know, again, in, in my place, I know, there's like 00:04:09.734 --> 00:04:13.854 four or five, dispensaries around me, how are they getting through it? 00:04:13.894 --> 00:04:16.794 Or is it just because you're like a digital good? 00:04:17.174 --> 00:04:21.434 You can't accept that like credit card online, or are they not allowed 00:04:21.434 --> 00:04:23.214 to accept credit cards online? 00:04:23.304 --> 00:04:24.904 debanking? 00:04:25.259 --> 00:04:27.769 Robert: no credit card payment processing that you can do online. 00:04:27.819 --> 00:04:32.109 I've seen some dispensaries now they have like a debit card, custom debit 00:04:32.109 --> 00:04:36.019 cards you can use and pre populate it with money and then use that card. 00:04:36.019 --> 00:04:38.919 So you're kind of bypassing it, but that's gray area. 00:04:38.919 --> 00:04:40.539 And I don't really want to dance in that area. 00:04:40.539 --> 00:04:42.369 So I went, okay, I'll stick to what I know. 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:45.269 And then they said, well, you know, I was using Stripe at the time 00:04:45.269 --> 00:04:46.619 and Stripe said, we can't do this. 00:04:46.659 --> 00:04:47.879 I said, well, it's just software. 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:49.119 I'm not touching the product. 00:04:49.129 --> 00:04:51.109 There's nothing actually going on with the product. 00:04:51.259 --> 00:04:55.899 Self, but they said, just because I'm a, connected business, that's helping 00:04:55.899 --> 00:05:00.089 facilitate the sale or the pre sale of these products, that, that was enough 00:05:00.099 --> 00:05:01.719 for them to say, we can't have you here. 00:05:01.939 --> 00:05:04.769 And then it was just, you could find a place here and there that does like high 00:05:04.769 --> 00:05:08.009 risk payment processing, but there's a lot more hoops and a lot more stuff 00:05:08.009 --> 00:05:09.219 that you got to jump through for that. 00:05:09.219 --> 00:05:13.429 So it became more of a headache than the fun, exciting project that 00:05:13.429 --> 00:05:14.689 I was working on in the beginning. 00:05:14.689 --> 00:05:17.879 So I kind of just, I've just been letting it sit there for that reason. 00:05:18.899 --> 00:05:19.589 Matt: It's interesting. 00:05:19.929 --> 00:05:22.039 it's a bout of bad luck, of course, right? 00:05:22.259 --> 00:05:24.539 Because, you know, you are ahead of, ahead of the curve. 00:05:25.019 --> 00:05:28.839 did the thought of ever just like, I don't know, you know, picking the 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:32.879 state that has like the most, locations or a collection of states with the 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:36.119 most locations and maybe trying to just work with those customers more 00:05:36.119 --> 00:05:38.519 directly ever crossed your mind? 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:41.249 Or is that just like way too much work and like, Hey, I can't really scale 00:05:41.374 --> 00:05:42.474 Robert: we have a lot in Michigan. 00:05:42.474 --> 00:05:44.144 There's a ton of dispensaries here. 00:05:44.154 --> 00:05:47.044 We're like, I think second or third to California or something, 00:05:47.064 --> 00:05:47.854 somewhere right around there. 00:05:47.854 --> 00:05:50.284 We're pushing, like trying to take over the number one spot, 00:05:50.294 --> 00:05:52.224 but it's still, it's way too much. 00:05:52.244 --> 00:05:53.244 There's a lot going on. 00:05:53.244 --> 00:05:56.364 And then the dispensaries themselves have all their paperwork and legal 00:05:56.364 --> 00:05:57.204 stuff they have to go through. 00:05:57.204 --> 00:06:00.324 So they're not going to be able to just kind of skirt on the outsides of things. 00:06:00.324 --> 00:06:03.354 And I don't want to push them into that direction and have them doing something 00:06:03.354 --> 00:06:06.224 that they're not going to be happy with in the six months they're upset. 00:06:06.224 --> 00:06:09.749 So it's just a lot of like, Sitting on your hands and just waiting now. 00:06:11.544 --> 00:06:15.419 Matt: How much of that I've always said this, I don't want, I'm not going to, 00:06:15.749 --> 00:06:20.789 I don't want to throw the label like failure on that, cause that's not, it's 00:06:20.799 --> 00:06:24.059 cause it's not, but I've always said like the biggest lessons are from like 00:06:24.059 --> 00:06:28.109 the failures or the roadblocks or the speed bumps, like whatever, however 00:06:28.109 --> 00:06:29.389 you want to like paint that picture. 00:06:29.579 --> 00:06:34.629 What lessons did you pull from that, that you then like sort of reinvested in these 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:36.299 next projects that you started to build? 00:06:36.584 --> 00:06:39.284 Robert: From a technical standpoint, I learned a lot building that. 00:06:39.284 --> 00:06:42.074 And just because I started with the custom post types and I realized 00:06:42.094 --> 00:06:44.224 that wasn't the structure I needed. 00:06:44.274 --> 00:06:46.954 I did a lot of things in the very beginning that if I was to go back 00:06:46.954 --> 00:06:49.044 and restart now, I would never do it. 00:06:49.084 --> 00:06:51.864 It's some, I'm on a whole different structure and setup. 00:06:51.864 --> 00:06:53.614 So I learned a lot technically from that. 00:06:53.614 --> 00:06:54.344 And then from like. 00:06:54.889 --> 00:06:57.249 The business standpoint, it was a big lesson. 00:06:57.249 --> 00:06:59.229 I said, okay, well, I might have a smart idea. 00:06:59.239 --> 00:07:00.879 I might have something that I can dive in. 00:07:00.879 --> 00:07:04.679 And I know in my heart that this is the right thing to do, but the industry 00:07:04.679 --> 00:07:07.349 just said, no, you're not in the right place, not in the right time. 00:07:07.369 --> 00:07:08.529 You're going to have to wait on that. 00:07:08.529 --> 00:07:10.909 And while I look at it and I'm still going, you know, 00:07:11.364 --> 00:07:12.704 There's nothing wrong with this. 00:07:12.724 --> 00:07:13.894 This makes no sense to me. 00:07:14.134 --> 00:07:17.944 I have to accept what's actually out there and I got to work within the constraints 00:07:17.944 --> 00:07:19.304 of whatever industry that I'm in. 00:07:19.534 --> 00:07:22.704 So now when I'm jumping into different spots and I'm looking around in different 00:07:22.724 --> 00:07:25.184 industries, I'm more cautious of that. 00:07:25.204 --> 00:07:28.384 I don't just jump in thinking my idea is good and I know it's good. 00:07:28.384 --> 00:07:29.794 So I'm going to go ahead and run with it. 00:07:30.044 --> 00:07:30.254 Now. 00:07:30.254 --> 00:07:32.724 I know there's a little bit more pre planning and thought 00:07:32.724 --> 00:07:34.024 process that goes into it. 00:07:36.579 --> 00:07:40.779 Matt: over the last few weeks, or months, and this is why, well, not 00:07:40.779 --> 00:07:41.849 the only reason why we connected. 00:07:41.849 --> 00:07:45.149 I definitely have, you know, known you and we've, interacted 00:07:45.159 --> 00:07:46.439 for, you know, many years. 00:07:46.749 --> 00:07:49.049 but I've seen just like this rapid pace. 00:07:49.464 --> 00:07:54.594 Of new Robert products every three days, every 72 hours. 00:07:55.044 --> 00:07:56.354 there's something new coming out. 00:07:56.614 --> 00:07:57.764 and I want to get to all that. 00:07:57.764 --> 00:07:59.534 You can find all of Robert's work. 00:07:59.534 --> 00:08:00.474 It'll be in the show notes, but it'll be robertdevore. 00:08:01.264 --> 00:08:01.464 com. 00:08:01.464 --> 00:08:05.474 You can check out all of the projects that we're going to get into, in a moment. 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:09.419 one of the ones that I saw that was just interesting to me that I saw 00:08:09.419 --> 00:08:12.559 you, I think you took it over, but you explain it, or maybe you built it 00:08:12.559 --> 00:08:17.669 from scratch is Boostbox, the pop up builder, for core editor in WordPress. 00:08:17.719 --> 00:08:18.649 Again, it's on the site. 00:08:19.029 --> 00:08:20.679 talk to me about Boostbox. 00:08:20.679 --> 00:08:21.699 I, did you acquire that? 00:08:21.729 --> 00:08:22.549 Was that from somebody 00:08:22.594 --> 00:08:23.614 Robert: no, that was something I built. 00:08:24.474 --> 00:08:24.684 Yeah. 00:08:24.684 --> 00:08:24.984 I just. 00:08:25.019 --> 00:08:28.739 Matt: And the backstory there was like you were trying, some popups 00:08:28.739 --> 00:08:31.139 and popup builders and you're like, they're all terrible and you 00:08:31.139 --> 00:08:32.459 just decided to do it your way. 00:08:32.769 --> 00:08:34.149 Was that the first product? 00:08:34.239 --> 00:08:34.519 Sorry. 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:37.999 And then also, was this the first product that like thrust you into 00:08:37.999 --> 00:08:39.519 making a ton of other products? 00:08:39.774 --> 00:08:41.514 Robert: I think I've always built stuff. 00:08:41.514 --> 00:08:42.674 Like I built client stuff. 00:08:42.674 --> 00:08:43.854 I built stuff for myself. 00:08:43.854 --> 00:08:46.824 I've built, you know, just a little bit here and I'm always doing something. 00:08:46.824 --> 00:08:48.864 I'm not content just sitting still. 00:08:49.104 --> 00:08:50.124 So that wasn't the first one. 00:08:50.134 --> 00:08:53.284 It was just, I looked and realized that there's a lot of stuff going on. 00:08:53.284 --> 00:08:55.464 Everyone's talking about the core editor and you know, 00:08:55.464 --> 00:08:56.674 how we should be adopting it. 00:08:56.684 --> 00:08:58.454 So I went, okay, what else can we do with it? 00:08:58.464 --> 00:09:02.664 That's, you know, different and pop ups just seem like a simple thing to. 00:09:02.914 --> 00:09:06.904 To work with and okay, this makes sense because everybody needs pop ups and I 00:09:06.904 --> 00:09:11.274 won't say every pop up builders, you know, terrible trash It's not that it's 00:09:11.274 --> 00:09:14.824 just I thought there was a better way a new way a more modern way And if we're 00:09:14.824 --> 00:09:18.404 all jumping into the core editor, this would be a cool way to do it And I wanted 00:09:18.404 --> 00:09:22.099 to test my skills and see if I could do something like that While building, I 00:09:22.099 --> 00:09:26.399 ran into a couple roadblocks with how to output the block content in the actual 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:28.329 pop up and learned a few things there. 00:09:28.329 --> 00:09:32.219 So it was a learning process as well as just another fun thing to build. 00:09:32.229 --> 00:09:35.749 That was one, I think I built that like a year and a half ago originally. 00:09:35.749 --> 00:09:42.059 So it's been out there for a while and not really necessary, the catalyst that 00:09:42.069 --> 00:09:43.829 jump started all the other products. 00:09:43.829 --> 00:09:46.869 It was just another one of the many that I have out there. 00:09:49.099 --> 00:09:52.909 Matt: WordPress for rapid development and building these products. 00:09:53.319 --> 00:09:56.529 How have you approached, like, so I'm just looking at the velocity of stuff 00:09:56.529 --> 00:10:02.689 that, that you're, shipping things, which is amazing, how are you sort of, what's 00:10:02.689 --> 00:10:05.989 your litmus test for saying like, okay, people want this, cause you're, you are 00:10:05.989 --> 00:10:10.019 shipping a lot, are you getting it into the hands of people and you're gathering 00:10:10.029 --> 00:10:14.159 feedback, how has that all played out for you and like marketing these products? 00:10:14.179 --> 00:10:19.734 I struggled enough with like, Podcast that I do like market them 00:10:19.924 --> 00:10:21.144 and say, God, how do I grow this? 00:10:21.144 --> 00:10:22.254 How do I grow the email list? 00:10:22.254 --> 00:10:26.344 So take me down the path, like master plan for all the stuff. 00:10:26.354 --> 00:10:27.324 How do you ship it? 00:10:27.334 --> 00:10:30.364 Get it into the person's hands, get feedback and build the next. 00:10:30.484 --> 00:10:33.654 Robert: originally like, okay, so in like it was November, I started 00:10:33.664 --> 00:10:36.734 really rapidly pushing stuff out and I didn't really have a plan. 00:10:36.784 --> 00:10:38.014 It just kind of happened. 00:10:38.284 --> 00:10:39.874 I'd build one and I go, okay, that's good. 00:10:39.874 --> 00:10:42.104 And then I'd spark another idea from that one. 00:10:42.104 --> 00:10:44.514 And I'd start working on that and it would come together 00:10:44.514 --> 00:10:45.844 quicker than the first one did. 00:10:45.844 --> 00:10:46.854 And then next thing I'm okay. 00:10:46.854 --> 00:10:48.114 Now I got like four or five of them. 00:10:48.424 --> 00:10:50.704 And I had like six or seven at one time where I'm just sitting 00:10:50.704 --> 00:10:52.734 there looking at him going, what am I going to do with all these? 00:10:52.764 --> 00:10:55.259 Because I can like, plan out like a big release for each. 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:57.059 And some of them are bigger plugins. 00:10:57.069 --> 00:10:58.509 Some of them are more like utility. 00:10:58.509 --> 00:11:00.699 You're going to get one use out of them or need them for like 10 00:11:00.699 --> 00:11:01.939 minutes and then turn them off. 00:11:02.329 --> 00:11:04.399 So I just, I knew, okay, I'll just start releasing them. 00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:07.389 And if I'm going to use them for myself and I know other people could 00:11:07.389 --> 00:11:08.779 probably get some use out of them. 00:11:08.959 --> 00:11:11.299 There's going to be somebody that's going to like this plugin, someone 00:11:11.299 --> 00:11:12.549 that's going to like that plugin. 00:11:12.869 --> 00:11:14.519 And I'll just put them out there and see what happens. 00:11:14.519 --> 00:11:16.819 And I didn't really have like a marketing channel. 00:11:17.099 --> 00:11:17.999 I put them out on Twitter. 00:11:18.349 --> 00:11:21.849 blog on my blog about them, put out release notes about each new one, 00:11:22.089 --> 00:11:23.319 I'd go ahead and tweet about it. 00:11:23.319 --> 00:11:25.889 And that was really like the general, the end of it. 00:11:25.909 --> 00:11:29.499 I was just, I use Twitter a lot for that, just to push the stuff out 00:11:29.499 --> 00:11:32.229 there and let people know that there was something new happening and 00:11:32.439 --> 00:11:36.199 interacting with people on Twitter, because I feel like you could do a blog. 00:11:36.219 --> 00:11:39.379 And if you're a developer, you could have a blog where people can comment 00:11:39.379 --> 00:11:41.719 on, but there's like a disconnect a little bit because there's no 00:11:41.719 --> 00:11:43.269 real time conversation happening. 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:46.689 So I try to keep Twitter as like the one space where I'm going to go ahead 00:11:46.689 --> 00:11:50.194 and I'll be active and I used that and it worked out well because a lot 00:11:50.194 --> 00:11:53.134 of people ask questions or someone would say, Hey, what if it did this? 00:11:53.444 --> 00:11:54.874 And I'd go, yeah, that's a great idea. 00:11:54.874 --> 00:11:56.094 And I'd put it in there real quick. 00:11:56.094 --> 00:11:57.454 And then I'd move on to the next one. 00:11:58.034 --> 00:11:59.934 And I didn't, again, I didn't really have a big plan. 00:11:59.934 --> 00:12:01.964 There was no like structure at the beginning. 00:12:01.964 --> 00:12:05.524 Like I'm going to release 26 plugins and these three are going to be the big ones. 00:12:05.569 --> 00:12:09.819 And I'm learning now, actually, seeing which ones are catching the most 00:12:09.819 --> 00:12:13.329 attention and which ones actually have the most value, like, long term. 00:12:13.629 --> 00:12:16.739 So I'm starting to see, like, okay, these five will be the ones 00:12:16.739 --> 00:12:18.239 I spend more time on than others. 00:12:18.539 --> 00:12:20.969 But there was no real marketing in the beginning, other than just 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:23.519 putting it out there, getting the stuff out there to people. 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:26.126 Yeah. 00:12:26.254 --> 00:12:27.694 Matt: for WordPress, which just seems like. 00:12:28.214 --> 00:12:32.154 My head blows up, like how, you know, it's such a massive and 00:12:32.154 --> 00:12:35.034 competitive space, number one, from like a business perspective. 00:12:35.184 --> 00:12:38.064 And then just I think of like all the options and all the things of 00:12:38.064 --> 00:12:41.694 like your, like a feature list that you might have to compete with. 00:12:42.234 --> 00:12:47.039 you know, the, so I guess at the end of the day is, I, let me frame it this way. 00:12:47.069 --> 00:12:48.269 I've always found it interesting. 00:12:48.269 --> 00:12:50.929 People are like, well, how are you ever gonna like, 'cause this is actually just 00:12:50.929 --> 00:12:52.659 near and dear to like, how I operate. 00:12:52.659 --> 00:12:53.619 Like I, I think. 00:12:54.614 --> 00:13:00.684 I'm crazy enough to think that I can monetize a WordPress podcast brand, right? 00:13:00.704 --> 00:13:02.954 Like I, it's a tiny audience, right? 00:13:02.974 --> 00:13:04.314 And I've said this a gazillion times. 00:13:04.314 --> 00:13:07.514 I think there's 10, 000 English speaking people in the entire world 00:13:07.834 --> 00:13:12.234 that care about this content that I have right for WordPress business. 00:13:12.794 --> 00:13:16.384 but I have all these other little micro podcasts that I 00:13:16.474 --> 00:13:19.034 create and I think collectively. 00:13:19.584 --> 00:13:25.414 A media company can be built off of these tiny little sub brands, if you will. 00:13:25.854 --> 00:13:30.874 Now, I think, for somebody like you, and especially with the introduction 00:13:30.874 --> 00:13:34.094 of AI, which we're going to talk about more about, Plug and Pal, your 00:13:34.094 --> 00:13:38.154 other product, with the introduction of AI, we can build things more 00:13:38.164 --> 00:13:45.929 rapidly, and, you could have a dozen, two dozen products under your cover. 00:13:46.329 --> 00:13:50.919 single person company, your single human brand. 00:13:51.739 --> 00:13:56.169 And while one of them might not be like SEO for WordPress might 00:13:56.169 --> 00:14:02.229 not take over Yoast SEO, but a collection of all the utilities that 00:14:02.229 --> 00:14:07.379 you have, the sum of them all can prop up a healthy business for you. 00:14:07.769 --> 00:14:11.099 That's how I see what you're doing is very similar to what I think I'm doing. 00:14:11.099 --> 00:14:13.109 But is that how you see all this stuff playing out? 00:14:13.489 --> 00:14:14.529 Robert: I've always done that though. 00:14:14.539 --> 00:14:17.719 It's, and I think like you, it's always been, I'm not just going to 00:14:17.719 --> 00:14:20.699 monetize one thing and say, there's people out there that do that. 00:14:20.699 --> 00:14:22.769 They say, I have this plugin or this brand, and this is 00:14:22.779 --> 00:14:23.629 the one thing I'm doing. 00:14:23.629 --> 00:14:24.699 And I'm going all in on it. 00:14:25.119 --> 00:14:26.889 My brain is not wired like that. 00:14:26.979 --> 00:14:30.029 I can't do 24 hours straight of the same thing over and over. 00:14:30.029 --> 00:14:33.509 So I've over the years learned I can do 12 different things 00:14:33.509 --> 00:14:35.249 throughout the day, but it'll all. 00:14:35.419 --> 00:14:38.959 Push forward by the end of the day, I look back and go, okay, I got a lot done today. 00:14:39.179 --> 00:14:40.599 And that's just how i've approached this too. 00:14:40.619 --> 00:14:43.899 I put out a bunch of stuff and you know Some stuff will catch fire some 00:14:43.899 --> 00:14:47.859 stuff won't but when someone lands on my site now they see oh, there's 00:14:47.959 --> 00:14:52.359 you know 50 plugins or 60 plugins that alone adds value to when you're 00:14:52.359 --> 00:14:54.799 looking at my products because you're going oh He's done a lot. 00:14:54.809 --> 00:14:57.774 It's not just One or two products of the same type. 00:14:57.774 --> 00:15:00.684 And then you go, well, everything he's doing is kind of limited to this. 00:15:00.964 --> 00:15:02.834 It lets you know, there's a lot that I can do. 00:15:02.854 --> 00:15:05.124 So, and that also ties into freelancing. 00:15:05.394 --> 00:15:09.104 So if I'm looking for clients and they come to my site, they go, there's nothing 00:15:09.104 --> 00:15:11.004 he can't do because he's done all this. 00:15:11.004 --> 00:15:14.384 So I know he'll, you know, I'll feel more comfortable writing him about 00:15:14.384 --> 00:15:17.204 my project because there's a good chance that he can figure it out. 00:15:17.474 --> 00:15:18.864 So I take all of that. 00:15:18.894 --> 00:15:20.434 Every little bit all adds up. 00:15:20.484 --> 00:15:22.194 Nothing is just one and done. 00:15:24.344 --> 00:15:28.224 Matt: There's oftentimes like I'll get, it's not imposter syndrome. 00:15:28.224 --> 00:15:32.384 Maybe it's just jealousy, but like you look at whatever, like other 00:15:32.384 --> 00:15:36.544 YouTubers, or other podcasts and you're like, wow, if I just like. 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:44.509 sold myself out and didn't care about like the content, you know, or the audience. 00:15:44.529 --> 00:15:50.249 And I just wanted to do like a tech review YouTube channel. 00:15:50.509 --> 00:15:55.934 And it was like clickbait headlines, crazy looking thumbnails, like To me, 00:15:55.954 --> 00:16:00.124 that's, and I know people that do that, and actually even in the WordPress 00:16:00.124 --> 00:16:01.884 space too, I guess, to some degree. 00:16:02.294 --> 00:16:04.934 but I think it's they start in WordPress and they start to reach for 00:16:04.934 --> 00:16:06.584 like that bigger, more broad audience. 00:16:07.404 --> 00:16:10.004 And it's just like, man, I don't, to me that's just work. 00:16:10.949 --> 00:16:14.199 Like to do that and I just don't, number one, it just doesn't, I don't 00:16:14.199 --> 00:16:18.219 feel satisfied with it and it just feels like work and I don't feel like 00:16:18.289 --> 00:16:21.479 any of my content production is work. 00:16:21.529 --> 00:16:22.579 It's, I like it. 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:25.969 I like talking to folks like you and I like publishing this content. 00:16:26.249 --> 00:16:29.689 So does that resonate with how you create your products? 00:16:30.034 --> 00:16:30.834 Robert: there'll be products. 00:16:30.834 --> 00:16:34.744 I have a list right now, probably like 15 or 20 that I know I still want to do, 00:16:34.744 --> 00:16:39.164 but I just haven't gotten the mojo to jump into them yet because they're just 00:16:39.164 --> 00:16:41.074 not as, they don't call on me as much. 00:16:41.074 --> 00:16:42.184 they don't feed that. 00:16:42.239 --> 00:16:43.909 for it. 00:16:43.909 --> 00:16:47.569 So I get started on it and I'm kind of bummed out by like a half an hour in and 00:16:47.569 --> 00:16:48.879 I'm looking for something else to do. 00:16:48.879 --> 00:16:51.759 So I try to just take that and I'm learning from that because 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:54.919 I used to just force myself into that and stay there because this 00:16:54.929 --> 00:16:55.979 is what you're supposed to do. 00:16:56.189 --> 00:16:59.319 And I realize now it's probably not, you find what works best for you. 00:16:59.319 --> 00:17:02.434 And like, just like you, you're not going to jump in there and do the weird, yeah. 00:17:02.514 --> 00:17:06.644 You know, thumbnails and clickbait headlines just to get an extra 50 views 00:17:06.904 --> 00:17:08.364 because it's not right in your heart. 00:17:08.374 --> 00:17:10.564 You're looking at it and going, I'm just going to do what's true to me. 00:17:10.784 --> 00:17:13.114 So that's basically how I'm doing this too, with the plugins. 00:17:13.124 --> 00:17:17.034 It's whatever feels right or something I've needed myself personally, or 00:17:17.034 --> 00:17:18.574 something I've seen someone else need. 00:17:18.574 --> 00:17:20.324 And I'm like, I could probably put that together. 00:17:20.494 --> 00:17:21.024 That's how I like. 00:17:21.224 --> 00:17:24.514 A good handful of them started, I'd see a tweet and I'd go, that 00:17:24.514 --> 00:17:25.504 sounds like a really good idea. 00:17:25.504 --> 00:17:26.384 I wonder if I could do that. 00:17:26.404 --> 00:17:29.024 And then, you know, a little bit later I'd have the plugin built and I just 00:17:29.024 --> 00:17:32.544 release it because it felt good to give back, you know, I've said since 00:17:32.544 --> 00:17:36.154 day one, open source saved my life because if it wasn't for building with. 00:17:36.219 --> 00:17:39.659 WordPress and learning, you know, website customization and all this, 00:17:39.679 --> 00:17:42.779 I would be doing so I'd be in a very bad place knowing where I 00:17:42.779 --> 00:17:44.749 came from as a teenager till now. 00:17:44.989 --> 00:17:46.629 So I'm happy and thankful for it. 00:17:46.629 --> 00:17:49.389 So every chance I get, I'm going to give back because someone 00:17:49.389 --> 00:17:51.339 else might be out there going through the same types of things. 00:17:51.339 --> 00:17:53.999 And if they find something that I put out, they go, Hey, this is cool. 00:17:54.209 --> 00:17:56.089 And that could spark a change in them. 00:17:56.604 --> 00:17:57.744 that's good enough for me. 00:17:57.974 --> 00:18:01.214 I'm not worried about becoming a multimillionaire, you know, famous 00:18:01.234 --> 00:18:04.494 person from all this, I'm just happy knowing that I'm doing something cool 00:18:04.494 --> 00:18:06.244 that I like to do and I'm giving back. 00:18:08.004 --> 00:18:10.594 Matt: One of the things that I've been doing with AI, I want to transition 00:18:10.594 --> 00:18:12.804 into talking a little bit about AI. 00:18:12.854 --> 00:18:14.734 once again, I'll just tease the site again. 00:18:14.734 --> 00:18:15.694 It's pluginpal. 00:18:16.474 --> 00:18:16.914 app. 00:18:16.964 --> 00:18:19.424 AI plugin generator for WordPress professionals. 00:18:19.754 --> 00:18:23.444 I've been on this journey of trying to understand what else is happening 00:18:23.454 --> 00:18:25.574 in the world outside of WordPress. 00:18:26.014 --> 00:18:29.254 And, again, folks who are hearing this now, but like, Oh God, Matt's going to 00:18:29.254 --> 00:18:30.694 talk about the apps that he made again. 00:18:30.834 --> 00:18:31.404 Yes, I am. 00:18:31.404 --> 00:18:32.034 It's my show. 00:18:32.734 --> 00:18:36.014 I'm going to talk about it again, but it's the frame in the sense of trying 00:18:36.014 --> 00:18:40.934 to get your, Your predictions if you can even predict I can't even predict 00:18:40.944 --> 00:18:45.284 that there was a conversation I was having in the WP minute Minutes before 00:18:45.284 --> 00:18:48.274 we jumped on this call about trying to predict like where AI is going with 00:18:48.304 --> 00:18:51.394 content generation I'm like, listen, I can only think about it like two years 00:18:51.394 --> 00:18:54.754 out Like other than that, I just freaking no idea like where it's going to go. 00:18:55.034 --> 00:18:59.894 whatever, I, the point is I've built these two like utility apps, PulseWP, which 00:18:59.894 --> 00:19:04.354 helps me aggregate my WordPress news, Podcast Downloader, which helps me search 00:19:04.354 --> 00:19:07.484 for podcasts and download them, right? 00:19:07.554 --> 00:19:10.574 Very simple things that just didn't exist or they just didn't 00:19:10.574 --> 00:19:12.124 exist the way that I needed them. 00:19:12.484 --> 00:19:18.804 So I think what we're trending to is a direction where I can build a utility 00:19:18.854 --> 00:19:20.554 app We'll call it a utility app. 00:19:20.634 --> 00:19:23.994 That's the best name that I have for it, to have it do something the way 00:19:23.994 --> 00:19:27.744 the, that the end user wants, Oh, you don't have a to do app that does, you 00:19:27.744 --> 00:19:31.774 can't find a to do app that does it, you know, a little sound plays every 00:19:31.774 --> 00:19:34.864 time you click done, build it, right? 00:19:35.074 --> 00:19:39.814 you don't have a WordPress news aggregator that, you know, categorizes or 00:19:39.814 --> 00:19:42.084 summarizes content like, like you want. 00:19:42.134 --> 00:19:42.834 No, build it. 00:19:42.854 --> 00:19:43.764 Like I did with pulse WP. 00:19:45.034 --> 00:19:46.694 I think we're going to move in that direction. 00:19:47.004 --> 00:19:52.844 So, with all of that said, where do you see the average user being able to log 00:19:52.844 --> 00:19:56.694 into WordPress one day and go I just need this plugin that does this thing. 00:19:57.034 --> 00:19:57.784 I can't find it. 00:19:58.014 --> 00:20:02.124 Let me just click a few buttons and a few prompts and then 00:20:02.124 --> 00:20:03.554 just have it there for me. 00:20:03.874 --> 00:20:07.004 Is that a world you think we're trending to or is that still very 00:20:07.014 --> 00:20:09.574 distant from where you sit today? 00:20:09.749 --> 00:20:12.569 Robert: say more distant right now still, because. 00:20:12.869 --> 00:20:16.649 For the everyday user that doesn't know code or doesn't understand code and 00:20:16.649 --> 00:20:20.709 they're literally just logging into their site to write content I don't think 00:20:20.709 --> 00:20:23.749 they're gonna have the same understanding of how to build the utility apps and 00:20:23.749 --> 00:20:26.669 things like that Like how we will you've been in code for long enough. 00:20:26.669 --> 00:20:29.239 You've been around the WordPress space long enough You can get in there and kind 00:20:29.239 --> 00:20:33.369 of mix it up because you know Some of the terminology the average person's not gonna 00:20:33.369 --> 00:20:35.689 know what class names to call or what? 00:20:35.689 --> 00:20:38.279 Referenced version number of like gravity forms. 00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:39.404 We need You know, 2. 00:20:39.434 --> 00:20:41.704 8 plus for this, they're not going to know that. 00:20:41.704 --> 00:20:44.184 So it's going to give them something a little harder to work with. 00:20:44.184 --> 00:20:47.424 They're not going to be able to get done as fast, but long term I could see it. 00:20:47.424 --> 00:20:50.624 It's just, there's going to be a lot of work like plugin pal. 00:20:50.624 --> 00:20:53.614 I wanted to set it up to where if you wanted to create a plugin, 00:20:53.634 --> 00:20:55.084 you could, but it's going to. 00:20:55.569 --> 00:20:58.079 Generate the code in a clean format. 00:20:58.089 --> 00:20:59.609 It's going to add proper doc blocks. 00:20:59.609 --> 00:21:02.019 It's going to put everything structured the way you want. 00:21:02.019 --> 00:21:03.829 It's using the modern functionality. 00:21:03.829 --> 00:21:07.309 I have it structured to where it's going to use the more modern versions 00:21:07.309 --> 00:21:08.879 of WooCommerce and things like that. 00:21:09.009 --> 00:21:11.049 So when you're asking it certain questions, it's 00:21:11.049 --> 00:21:12.669 automatically pulling from a. 00:21:12.944 --> 00:21:14.934 A more knowledge based data set. 00:21:15.204 --> 00:21:18.434 So I think tools like that will become more prominent because it's like a 00:21:18.444 --> 00:21:20.924 bridge work between the super devs. 00:21:20.924 --> 00:21:24.544 And then just the everyday users, it'll be like a nice little bridge between the 00:21:24.544 --> 00:21:28.574 two, but I don't see it overthrowing, like you're going to log into WordPress 00:21:28.574 --> 00:21:30.134 and go, okay, I need this plugin. 00:21:30.134 --> 00:21:33.734 And on the plugins page, you can type a sentence and get your own custom plugin. 00:21:34.074 --> 00:21:36.404 Someone might build that, but I don't see that being. 00:21:37.389 --> 00:21:39.109 Necessity for WordPress. 00:21:39.109 --> 00:21:42.209 I don't see that being a thing that would actually drive it fully forward. 00:21:42.259 --> 00:21:47.499 Like having certain AI integrations would be nice for like generating content or 00:21:47.729 --> 00:21:53.309 maybe writing your meta descriptions for SEO, but having it just totally everything 00:21:53.329 --> 00:21:55.369 AI, I don't feel like that's WordPress. 00:21:55.559 --> 00:21:58.849 WordPress gives you the ability to put those things in there, but 00:21:58.849 --> 00:22:01.479 I feel like it's still its own little core thing outside of that. 00:22:01.479 --> 00:22:04.269 So I think AI will still be separate from it as well. 00:22:05.499 --> 00:22:11.339 Matt: Yeah, I was listening to, I'm also trying to consume a bunch of, AI podcasts, 00:22:11.339 --> 00:22:12.379 YouTube channels and stuff like that. 00:22:13.379 --> 00:22:16.539 It is super challenging because it's like the gold rush moment right now. 00:22:16.569 --> 00:22:20.749 Like WordPress was when I started my podcast like 15, 18 years ago. 00:22:21.099 --> 00:22:23.529 When like everyone's talking about it, everyone's covering it. 00:22:23.529 --> 00:22:25.179 And you're just like, talk about clickbait. 00:22:25.219 --> 00:22:27.549 I mean, Jesus is everywhere with this stuff. 00:22:27.549 --> 00:22:27.759 Right. 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:31.069 And you just see these people like how to make 10, 000 a month with your AI app. 00:22:31.069 --> 00:22:31.199 I'm 00:22:31.379 --> 00:22:31.539 Robert: yeah. 00:22:31.819 --> 00:22:32.929 Matt: it's just not going to work. 00:22:33.189 --> 00:22:33.609 Okay. 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:35.809 Like, you know, it's just not going to work. 00:22:36.089 --> 00:22:38.939 but anyway, I was consuming one recently. 00:22:38.989 --> 00:22:42.159 The guy was interviewing somebody who was building directory websites and the, 00:22:42.269 --> 00:22:46.169 the guy that he was interviewing is a younger kid and he was like, Oh yeah, 00:22:46.169 --> 00:22:50.729 he's like, I, for this one over here, I use WordPress and, you know, I was, you 00:22:50.729 --> 00:22:53.619 know, I know, I feel, I forget what he said, I'm going to paraphrase it, but he 00:22:53.619 --> 00:22:55.539 was just like, this was a mistake, right? 00:22:55.539 --> 00:22:57.619 To use, you know, WordPress for this directory site. 00:22:57.619 --> 00:22:59.959 And in my back of my head, knowing what I know about WordPress, I'm like, 00:22:59.959 --> 00:23:01.149 no, that's actually the right way. 00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:01.939 Right? 00:23:01.999 --> 00:23:06.289 that's what you, that's what you kids are forgetting because you go into AI, you 00:23:06.339 --> 00:23:10.599 ask it to do something, it gives you it, and it's awesome, but then it's just all 00:23:10.609 --> 00:23:15.459 there living in that ecosystem, and if you don't know the functional components of 00:23:15.459 --> 00:23:18.969 like the, like if you don't know React, like I don't know React, I was building 00:23:18.969 --> 00:23:20.839 React apps, I don't know what I'm doing. 00:23:21.589 --> 00:23:21.779 Right? 00:23:21.780 --> 00:23:22.809 And that's scary to me. 00:23:23.129 --> 00:23:25.259 at WordPress, you can break it apart. 00:23:25.260 --> 00:23:25.279 Right? 00:23:25.589 --> 00:23:27.069 You can understand the database. 00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:30.169 You can move the hosting when your business starts to grow. 00:23:30.389 --> 00:23:35.029 You can move all of these very important, I'll say weak links or these very, you 00:23:35.029 --> 00:23:36.589 know, pivotal pieces of technology. 00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:39.189 Database, front end hosting, WordPress itself. 00:23:39.439 --> 00:23:42.019 Like you can optimize these three core components. 00:23:42.369 --> 00:23:45.609 Whereas if you just slap it all out there with AI, you're just stuck to 00:23:45.609 --> 00:23:47.599 whatever environment that you're in. 00:23:47.599 --> 00:23:49.999 And if you don't know that environment, now you're handcuffed. 00:23:50.489 --> 00:23:51.869 and that's a particular challenge. 00:23:52.299 --> 00:23:53.769 How does WordPress compete against that? 00:23:53.769 --> 00:23:57.729 Do you think WordPress survives in this world of attention and quick 00:23:57.959 --> 00:23:59.329 app development that we're seeing? 00:23:59.559 --> 00:24:03.814 Robert: long, long term WordPress will be even better for The developers for 00:24:03.814 --> 00:24:07.174 that reason, because right now you're seeing nothing but surface level, 00:24:07.174 --> 00:24:09.094 everything, surface level, everyone. 00:24:09.094 --> 00:24:12.394 So, you know, cat with a laser, every little shiny thing they 00:24:12.394 --> 00:24:14.924 see, they're looking at, no, one's really diving in deep. 00:24:14.934 --> 00:24:17.774 No, one's really seeing where the limitations are on certain things. 00:24:17.774 --> 00:24:18.394 They go, Oh, this. 00:24:18.509 --> 00:24:22.239 Builds a wallpaper generator, or this builds this and they're happy with 00:24:22.239 --> 00:24:23.919 it because they see these things. 00:24:23.919 --> 00:24:26.289 It's exciting and new, but no one's really diving in. 00:24:26.289 --> 00:24:29.649 That's why someone can say WordPress isn't the right thing for this type of 00:24:29.649 --> 00:24:33.419 a setup, but it technically is because it has all the stuff you need for it. 00:24:33.419 --> 00:24:37.199 You just didn't realize it because you're still at the surface level of all of it. 00:24:37.199 --> 00:24:39.969 You're not understanding the deeper dive in it. 00:24:39.969 --> 00:24:43.059 And when people start to do that again, WordPress will still be the same. 00:24:43.069 --> 00:24:43.399 Like I think. 00:24:43.509 --> 00:24:45.359 Recently, I was talking on Twitter. 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:49.249 I said, I likened it to like Cisco, like we're in that phase now where 00:24:49.259 --> 00:24:51.419 it's going to be a steady product. 00:24:51.419 --> 00:24:52.719 You're going to see it everywhere. 00:24:52.719 --> 00:24:54.089 It's not going anywhere. 00:24:54.329 --> 00:24:57.269 Everyone thought with the drama, it was going to just disappear and WordPress was 00:24:57.269 --> 00:24:59.959 dead, like blogging's dead or SEO is dead. 00:24:59.959 --> 00:25:00.009 It's. 00:25:00.099 --> 00:25:02.989 The same thing you're going to see it, you know, we go through cycles, 00:25:02.989 --> 00:25:06.549 people want their fast and fun, and then they'll get over that and realize 00:25:06.579 --> 00:25:10.669 not everyone's making 10, 000 a month from some simple app they generated. 00:25:11.009 --> 00:25:13.679 So then they go back to the real work and the real work involves 00:25:13.689 --> 00:25:16.889 things like WordPress, where you're going to dive in and actually build 00:25:16.889 --> 00:25:18.629 something and not just play around. 00:25:19.924 --> 00:25:25.014 Matt: Yeah, I mean, the user management system alone, right, is such something 00:25:25.014 --> 00:25:26.254 that you would take for granted. 00:25:26.254 --> 00:25:28.124 I mean, you've been around here for a while. 00:25:28.124 --> 00:25:31.914 You remember these debates of like, is WordPress an app framework? 00:25:32.164 --> 00:25:33.464 You know, because you had that, right? 00:25:33.464 --> 00:25:36.744 You had basically this, you had a user login management system, you 00:25:36.744 --> 00:25:39.904 had, you know, custom post types, you can tie it up to a database, 00:25:39.904 --> 00:25:40.794 you can do all these things. 00:25:42.954 --> 00:25:46.094 And now, like, the stuff that I've been working with, it's just like, 00:25:46.094 --> 00:25:51.424 man, if you don't ask it to do good user management, like, you don't get 00:25:51.424 --> 00:25:53.524 a forgot my password link, right? 00:25:53.524 --> 00:25:58.734 You get no password, you know, management or, best practices and things like that. 00:25:58.734 --> 00:26:00.974 Like, if you're not at, I mean, yes, these things are going to get better. 00:26:01.004 --> 00:26:01.944 Like, I understand that. 00:26:02.214 --> 00:26:05.889 But as of right now, It's if you're not asking for it and you don't know 00:26:05.889 --> 00:26:06.959 about it, you're not getting it. 00:26:07.029 --> 00:26:10.179 And that's like the biggest issue, the biggest gap right now. 00:26:10.179 --> 00:26:14.059 And it actually makes me appreciate WordPress more for that. 00:26:14.089 --> 00:26:16.669 and I hope that raises the appreciation for everyone 00:26:17.139 --> 00:26:18.819 across the board for WordPress. 00:26:19.059 --> 00:26:21.989 Robert: when I built PluginPal, that was one of the things, the forgot password 00:26:21.989 --> 00:26:23.649 and all the different user functionality. 00:26:23.699 --> 00:26:26.129 I built that from scratch and it was, that was a headache. 00:26:26.139 --> 00:26:28.399 There was lots of, this isn't even here like it's supposed to be. 00:26:28.399 --> 00:26:31.999 And if I'm asking the AI for user management and it's missing out 00:26:31.999 --> 00:26:35.759 on specific things like the forgot password or sending an email 00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:37.529 when they're, Account is created. 00:26:37.529 --> 00:26:39.229 It's leaving out some of the basics. 00:26:39.489 --> 00:26:42.179 So for someone that didn't know that was something that was needed and 00:26:42.179 --> 00:26:45.299 has to go back now and re request it, they're just skipping that. 00:26:45.299 --> 00:26:48.139 So the apps that are being built, aren't going to be as functional. 00:26:48.369 --> 00:26:50.609 You'll see a lot of people now they're building apps where you 00:26:50.609 --> 00:26:53.959 can log in and authenticate with WordPress and post your content. 00:26:54.004 --> 00:26:56.154 But then there's no code to review. 00:26:56.164 --> 00:26:58.324 There's no actual downloads for it. 00:26:58.334 --> 00:27:01.814 You're just, you're trusting that whoever built this AI tool now 00:27:01.814 --> 00:27:04.774 has done a good enough job to keep everything secure for you. 00:27:05.074 --> 00:27:07.574 So you're going to, you're going to see a lot of that where people are going to 00:27:07.584 --> 00:27:10.724 start questioning that more and going back to WordPress and going back to the 00:27:10.724 --> 00:27:15.014 basics and the things that have been around for a while and are sound and true. 00:27:15.264 --> 00:27:17.424 And we can see that like WordPress is now, you know. 00:27:18.234 --> 00:27:22.345 People are putting AI into WordPress, but people aren't putting WordPress into AI. 00:27:22.395 --> 00:27:23.155 it's a different setup. 00:27:23.155 --> 00:27:23.265 So 00:27:26.305 --> 00:27:27.485 it's not the other way around. 00:27:27.515 --> 00:27:29.255 So I feel like we're going to see more of that. 00:27:29.265 --> 00:27:34.145 Like people are going to get tired of all the 15 year olds and 17 year olds 00:27:34.145 --> 00:27:36.925 that are building these things and then saying, Hey, look at me, I'm super 00:27:36.925 --> 00:27:38.565 smart, but then you tear apart the code. 00:27:38.575 --> 00:27:40.935 And in five minutes, you're finding vulnerabilities or you're finding 00:27:40.935 --> 00:27:44.405 things that you're going, okay, this isn't as good as it could be. 00:27:44.650 --> 00:27:48.440 And I'm going to go look for somebody or some company or someplace that's actually 00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:49.900 doing something a little better than this. 00:27:49.980 --> 00:27:52.710 So like you said, the gold rush, it's the gold rush of it. 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:56.470 And before long, it'll go back to normal AI companies. 00:27:56.590 --> 00:27:56.990 Oh, sorry. 00:27:56.990 --> 00:27:57.260 Go ahead. 00:27:58.450 --> 00:27:58.680 Matt: yeah. 00:27:58.690 --> 00:28:02.390 So is PluginPal a, let's walk through some of the features of PluginPal 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:03.280 for those who are interested. 00:28:03.280 --> 00:28:04.290 Once again, PluginPal. 00:28:04.340 --> 00:28:05.480 app, check it out. 00:28:05.970 --> 00:28:08.920 are you, so I, in the green room before we hit record, I said, I 00:28:08.920 --> 00:28:10.320 promise no curveball questions. 00:28:10.520 --> 00:28:11.540 I got a curveball question. 00:28:11.690 --> 00:28:12.220 Robert: You got it. 00:28:12.860 --> 00:28:15.740 Matt: are you building all your plugins with PluginPal these days? 00:28:15.895 --> 00:28:18.965 Robert: I would say about 50 50, some of the smaller ones, I start with this 00:28:18.985 --> 00:28:20.775 and I will customize it after the fact. 00:28:20.775 --> 00:28:24.615 And that's, I'm not saying that this thing is going to be the exact plugin. 00:28:24.625 --> 00:28:26.115 You're going to build every single plugin. 00:28:26.115 --> 00:28:28.525 And as soon as it gives you the zip file, everything's perfect. 00:28:28.525 --> 00:28:29.405 It's not there yet. 00:28:29.425 --> 00:28:31.785 The AI itself is just not there yet, but. 00:28:32.110 --> 00:28:35.370 Every plugin I'm building now, I start with this, and I'll get a good base start 00:28:35.370 --> 00:28:36.610 with it, and then I just go from there. 00:28:36.610 --> 00:28:39.760 So it saves me like, I'd say 30 minutes to an hour each time just 00:28:39.760 --> 00:28:43.260 having to go in and clean up base code and put the basic structure 00:28:43.260 --> 00:28:45.150 pieces in place that every plugin has. 00:28:45.150 --> 00:28:49.480 So it's definitely a time saver, and I'm using it sparingly right now, but 00:28:49.490 --> 00:28:53.450 I'm picking it up more and trying to get more hands on use out of it so 00:28:53.450 --> 00:28:56.950 I can put better functions into it for everyone else that's using it. 00:28:58.645 --> 00:29:04.955 Matt: pricing page as of, late February 2025, starter advanced elite 2040, 100 00:29:04.955 --> 00:29:10.995 a month generate up to 100, 250 or 1000 plugins respectively across the board. 00:29:10.995 --> 00:29:13.725 I noticed one important bullet point here is you have design 00:29:13.725 --> 00:29:15.395 for individual developers. 00:29:15.735 --> 00:29:20.155 So teams, agencies, probably not because this is probably what I'll 00:29:20.155 --> 00:29:22.115 call like a one to one relationship. 00:29:22.115 --> 00:29:23.575 I'm asking it to build something. 00:29:23.765 --> 00:29:24.985 It's giving it to me. 00:29:25.225 --> 00:29:27.425 I can't collaborate with my team on that. 00:29:27.455 --> 00:29:30.255 I mean, I could afterwards, I could upload it to get hub. 00:29:30.265 --> 00:29:34.055 Maybe you actually deploy to get hub, in the future through this, plugin pal. 00:29:34.055 --> 00:29:38.165 But as of right now, best suited for those who are like, look, I want to build some. 00:29:38.385 --> 00:29:41.515 Cool plugins that I desire to make for my own purposes. 00:29:41.875 --> 00:29:44.035 Plugin pal probably fits that mold pretty well. 00:29:44.110 --> 00:29:44.310 Robert: Yeah. 00:29:44.310 --> 00:29:48.040 And I didn't want to, the agency level, if I'm going to go ahead and 00:29:48.050 --> 00:29:52.700 use multiple user management that became more complicated to set up. 00:29:52.730 --> 00:29:54.270 So I went, okay, I'll just start it out with this. 00:29:54.290 --> 00:29:57.910 I'm really targeting the person, like, like you said, the one that wants to 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:01.160 just tinker with an idea or has an idea they want to build and they don't want 00:30:01.170 --> 00:30:02.980 to structure it from the very beginning. 00:30:03.425 --> 00:30:07.795 Scratch themselves, this gives them a good head start or for like a developer who's, 00:30:07.825 --> 00:30:10.465 you know, freelancing and they're like, Hey, I got clients to ask for questions. 00:30:10.475 --> 00:30:14.095 You ask this plug in pal a couple of times, you know what you want 00:30:14.095 --> 00:30:15.255 and you get what you want out of it. 00:30:15.255 --> 00:30:18.405 And it gives you maybe an idea of something you didn't even think of 00:30:18.405 --> 00:30:20.935 in the beginning, or it gives you at least the structure to go ahead 00:30:20.935 --> 00:30:22.665 and do the work for the client. 00:30:22.705 --> 00:30:25.925 And you know, the client's getting well structured and clean and 00:30:25.935 --> 00:30:29.135 secure code because it's already baked into the beginnings of it. 00:30:30.715 --> 00:30:32.455 Matt: So is this a SAS based app? 00:30:32.455 --> 00:30:33.925 Somebody logs in, they have their own account. 00:30:33.945 --> 00:30:35.655 It's all driven through the web or is it something they're 00:30:35.655 --> 00:30:37.265 downloading and installing it to like 00:30:37.285 --> 00:30:39.385 Robert: Yeah, it's SAS and it's, payments through Stripe. 00:30:39.565 --> 00:30:44.045 So the Stripe handles all the customers, the payment management and the 00:30:44.045 --> 00:30:45.765 monthly recurring fees and all that. 00:30:45.765 --> 00:30:48.295 So, yeah, so it's all structured right through the website. 00:30:48.295 --> 00:30:51.085 There's no downloads to be able to use it like on your desktop 00:30:51.085 --> 00:30:52.435 yet or anything like that. 00:30:53.015 --> 00:30:53.975 It's possible. 00:30:54.145 --> 00:30:55.545 Matt: Have, yeah. 00:30:55.685 --> 00:30:58.565 Have you used something like Bolt, before on the web? 00:30:58.585 --> 00:31:00.375 Robert: I've used Chad GPT. 00:31:00.385 --> 00:31:03.205 That's pretty much the extent of the AI I've used. 00:31:03.215 --> 00:31:03.955 I like it. 00:31:03.955 --> 00:31:06.815 I got used to it and I'm trying not to jump to too many. 00:31:06.825 --> 00:31:09.875 And I tried what I tried a couple different, like little code 00:31:09.875 --> 00:31:13.635 editors, like, Curb before cursor came out, I tried a code editor 00:31:13.675 --> 00:31:14.735 and I was like, I don't like it. 00:31:14.765 --> 00:31:17.405 I don't want to use the AI in my actual code. 00:31:17.405 --> 00:31:20.865 I like the separation to be able to look at the AI and then pull it into my code. 00:31:20.875 --> 00:31:23.635 And cause I'll change it and update it every time I'm copying it. 00:31:23.645 --> 00:31:27.655 I'm not just copying and pasting or just pressing a button and hoping for the best. 00:31:27.655 --> 00:31:29.295 So I don't like that being right there. 00:31:29.325 --> 00:31:31.025 It just, it got too complicated for me. 00:31:31.275 --> 00:31:33.695 So I separate all that and just use chat GPT. 00:31:35.150 --> 00:31:37.740 Matt: Alright, so you're not using cursor as your daily driver. 00:31:38.145 --> 00:31:38.365 Robert: no. 00:31:39.140 --> 00:31:39.250 Matt: Yeah. 00:31:39.940 --> 00:31:40.430 Interesting. 00:31:40.460 --> 00:31:40.820 Interesting. 00:31:40.870 --> 00:31:45.390 I do envy folks who are developers first who have these tools because you can 00:31:45.390 --> 00:31:48.550 just go a million miles an hour with this stuff and like, I'm looking at 00:31:48.550 --> 00:31:52.090 it just like dabbling like, wow, this is, it's like when I first discovered, 00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:56.490 you know, well, WordPress or Drupal with Drupal had CCK and views built in. 00:31:56.490 --> 00:32:00.260 I'm like, I'm building queries in the web, like in a web interface 00:32:00.260 --> 00:32:01.820 and it's displaying this content. 00:32:01.935 --> 00:32:02.405 For me. 00:32:02.405 --> 00:32:02.595 Right. 00:32:02.595 --> 00:32:06.315 Or when I first discovered gravity forms 12 years ago, and I was like, 00:32:06.325 --> 00:32:08.045 Oh my God, I can do this stuff. 00:32:08.045 --> 00:32:09.045 This is amazing. 00:32:09.565 --> 00:32:11.995 you know, and that's how I feel about this stuff today, but I can 00:32:11.995 --> 00:32:15.795 only imagine like folks like you can just level up or produce so much. 00:32:15.795 --> 00:32:17.795 and, you know, I guess your collection of products and 00:32:17.795 --> 00:32:19.475 plugins are a testament to that. 00:32:19.485 --> 00:32:23.385 So, congratulations for being able to do that stuff. 00:32:24.835 --> 00:32:25.395 that's great. 00:32:25.785 --> 00:32:30.485 I want to end off talking about the state of WordPress as much as 00:32:30.485 --> 00:32:34.875 you want to chat about it, but I didn't want to let that quote go. 00:32:34.875 --> 00:32:37.115 You say open source saved my life. 00:32:37.445 --> 00:32:44.755 I think one of the most amazing things about WordPress is how it, even to this 00:32:44.755 --> 00:32:50.255 day, even in the face of AI and other coding frameworks, it can help empower 00:32:50.255 --> 00:32:52.575 somebody, to do many things, right? 00:32:52.575 --> 00:32:52.965 You can. 00:32:53.735 --> 00:32:57.295 Crack open WordPress, learn how to be a web designer or developer. 00:32:57.725 --> 00:32:59.825 You can become a publisher. 00:33:00.345 --> 00:33:06.785 You can learn how to manage content and this can translate into a 00:33:06.785 --> 00:33:08.885 totally different career path, right? 00:33:08.915 --> 00:33:13.655 If you're changing careers by just understanding how WordPress works or 00:33:13.665 --> 00:33:17.715 how to get a website online, you're not just learning the WordPress side of 00:33:17.715 --> 00:33:19.945 it, you're learning like the internet. 00:33:20.245 --> 00:33:20.945 Side of it. 00:33:21.165 --> 00:33:25.525 You're learning domain name, hosting, how servers communicate to each other. 00:33:26.325 --> 00:33:30.755 Eventually probably learning how to email stuff and how like DNS works and all 00:33:30.755 --> 00:33:36.060 this stuff like this is a collection of understanding It might be old, boring tech 00:33:36.070 --> 00:33:39.190 for many of us listening to this, but it's because we've been doing it for 20 years 00:33:39.670 --> 00:33:41.670 for somebody brand new into this space. 00:33:41.960 --> 00:33:45.660 This can unlock a whole new opportunity, of helping others, 00:33:45.970 --> 00:33:47.450 or getting a job, right? 00:33:47.450 --> 00:33:50.770 Because of your knowledge of WordPress for so many areas. 00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:53.950 That is why WordPress is so important to me. 00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:54.920 It's not even like. 00:33:55.820 --> 00:33:58.760 The blogging and the publishing and the democratization of publishing and all 00:33:58.760 --> 00:34:02.550 this stuff, and nevermind like the agency layer of it or freelance layer, it's just 00:34:02.550 --> 00:34:07.380 because it can enable somebody in so many different paths, which is why I think it's 00:34:07.380 --> 00:34:12.050 so important, you know, that WordPress does live on and that we shouldn't just, 00:34:12.930 --> 00:34:18.665 you know, root for the bad guy in the room And just want it to just disappear because 00:34:18.675 --> 00:34:25.115 then what, you know, what do we have left, you know, if we're not keeping this 00:34:25.115 --> 00:34:30.195 thing going, whether you like leadership or not, you should care that this box 00:34:30.195 --> 00:34:32.935 of software continues to move forward. 00:34:33.295 --> 00:34:37.435 I'm not saying I have all the answers, but it should continue and push forward. 00:34:38.175 --> 00:34:41.565 So now I hand the mic over to you because obviously this is important to you. 00:34:42.025 --> 00:34:45.635 how did it save your life and why do you want this to continue forward? 00:34:45.860 --> 00:34:47.940 Robert: Like, when I was a teenager, I was doing a lot of 00:34:47.940 --> 00:34:49.110 stuff I shouldn't have been doing. 00:34:49.140 --> 00:34:51.250 I was involved with some people I shouldn't have been 00:34:51.250 --> 00:34:52.200 involved with, you know? 00:34:52.420 --> 00:34:56.870 And I know, realistically, if I look back now and say, okay, two more 00:34:56.870 --> 00:35:00.960 years of me doing that versus Finding WordPress and learning, Oh, I can 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:02.170 make money through the internet. 00:35:02.180 --> 00:35:03.880 Like that was brand new to me at the time. 00:35:03.880 --> 00:35:06.200 So when I seen that, I went, I'm going to go this way instead. 00:35:06.460 --> 00:35:08.910 If I didn't, I'd be in prison or dead right now. 00:35:08.950 --> 00:35:10.830 And I'm like guaranteed. 00:35:10.830 --> 00:35:14.210 So I'm happy that I was able to find something that gave me a new focus 00:35:14.210 --> 00:35:17.520 and a new ability to see life outside of whatever I was in at that moment. 00:35:18.165 --> 00:35:20.975 And then I just look at it and go, okay, if it saved me and it gave me 00:35:20.975 --> 00:35:24.015 the ability, now I'm older and I have a, you know, I have a family, I have a 00:35:24.015 --> 00:35:25.905 son, so I'm providing for him with it. 00:35:25.905 --> 00:35:30.415 And it's grown from just a fun thing to do, to take me away 00:35:30.415 --> 00:35:33.675 from what I was doing to, oh, and I'm able to make money from it. 00:35:33.675 --> 00:35:35.715 I freelanced for over a dozen years. 00:35:35.945 --> 00:35:39.015 I haven't had, like, I've had a day job doing agency work, but I haven't 00:35:39.025 --> 00:35:42.365 had a day job outside of the house and probably close to 20 years now. 00:35:42.585 --> 00:35:43.965 So I wouldn't have had that. 00:35:44.495 --> 00:35:47.535 You know, capability, if it wasn't for WordPress and finding WordPress. 00:35:47.535 --> 00:35:51.275 So for me, if it's done that for me, and I know it's done that for other people, 00:35:51.575 --> 00:35:54.785 I want to at least give back enough to where I feel like at the end of it, if 00:35:54.785 --> 00:35:58.255 I walk away from it all and I'm done with the internet and I'm never online 00:35:58.255 --> 00:36:02.745 again, I've done enough to say, okay, it saved me and gave me a life, but 00:36:02.745 --> 00:36:07.055 I've given back and I've done hopefully enough to repay that, pay it forward. 00:36:07.065 --> 00:36:08.305 You know, however you want to look at it. 00:36:08.585 --> 00:36:11.125 I just feel like it's the right thing to do, like morally. 00:36:11.195 --> 00:36:15.455 I, if I'm getting so much out of this, it's, I'm not going to just take and 00:36:15.455 --> 00:36:19.275 then walk away from it and go, this is just for me, this is all for me. 00:36:19.275 --> 00:36:22.455 That's just, that's not, I don't do that in real life outside of the internet. 00:36:22.455 --> 00:36:23.805 So I don't want to do that here. 00:36:24.045 --> 00:36:27.835 I try to bring the way I look at life in general into business, because I 00:36:27.835 --> 00:36:29.335 feel like a lot of people separate it. 00:36:29.545 --> 00:36:31.125 They go, I'm just doing business now. 00:36:31.125 --> 00:36:34.185 And they do the clickbait headlines and the stuff that they just can't. 00:36:34.390 --> 00:36:38.150 Morally feel like is normal to them because they equate it as it's just 00:36:38.190 --> 00:36:42.180 business But for me, there's a gray line in between where the business is the 00:36:42.180 --> 00:36:46.220 person So I try to put more of myself into it and that's where giving back 00:36:46.220 --> 00:36:50.090 and constantly giving back Is what i'm trying to do I could have sold a lot of 00:36:50.090 --> 00:36:53.279 the stuff and been like i'm gonna put a price tag on all these things because 00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:56.165 i'm building them and Their quality, and I'm going to give them back, but 00:36:56.165 --> 00:36:58.025 I'm going to want something in return. 00:36:58.025 --> 00:36:59.035 I didn't want to do that. 00:36:59.085 --> 00:37:00.455 That's not what the goal was. 00:37:00.465 --> 00:37:04.775 The goal was just to show that as one person, I can do this and give back. 00:37:04.775 --> 00:37:07.745 And, you know, everybody can do the little things that they can 00:37:07.745 --> 00:37:09.075 do in their own unique ways. 00:37:09.405 --> 00:37:12.404 And I'm not saying everybody's going to sit down and develop 50 plugins 00:37:12.405 --> 00:37:15.515 in a month or whatever, but you know, if you're writing content or you're 00:37:15.515 --> 00:37:19.389 going back and showcasing maybe some of the basics of WordPress, like. 00:37:19.390 --> 00:37:23.470 The, how you can work through WordPress with DNS management or how you're going 00:37:23.470 --> 00:37:26.960 to be able to do caching properly and things like that, if we can get back 00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:30.620 to some of the basics, then maybe some of the younger kids that are building 00:37:30.620 --> 00:37:34.330 with all these cool tools, we'll see, Oh, I can do all this stuff here too. 00:37:34.610 --> 00:37:37.580 And then you're showcasing that it's more robust and it's, you 00:37:37.580 --> 00:37:41.290 know, it's solid and there's an actual framework here beyond just. 00:37:41.785 --> 00:37:45.525 The basics of whatever the AI gives you so trying to tie all that in trying 00:37:45.525 --> 00:37:48.745 to give back and be a part of that And just make sure that I'm leaving 00:37:48.745 --> 00:37:52.265 everything a little bit nicer than when I showed up if I can do that. 00:37:52.265 --> 00:37:52.775 I'm happy 00:37:54.035 --> 00:37:54.355 Matt: Yeah. 00:37:55.055 --> 00:37:58.025 One of the things that I've been wrestling with, like a lot of us, 00:37:58.095 --> 00:38:02.575 especially the current temperature of WordPress and the community, and what's 00:38:02.575 --> 00:38:06.785 going on in sort of legal battles with, Automatic and Matt and WP Engine. 00:38:06.835 --> 00:38:09.545 it's like, how do you keep like, obviously a positive mindset about this 00:38:09.545 --> 00:38:13.975 stuff and like, want to want WordPress to, you know, continue and to thrive, 00:38:14.385 --> 00:38:19.055 you know, the biggest challenge for me is understanding, you know, look, 00:38:20.075 --> 00:38:23.855 there's a lot of things that have happened that no one's happy about. 00:38:24.505 --> 00:38:31.585 and the way that I see it is there is no removing Matt as. 00:38:32.350 --> 00:38:36.150 Controlling leader of WordPress proper. 00:38:37.800 --> 00:38:41.940 How do we, is it okay to accept that? 00:38:42.250 --> 00:38:44.630 How do we continue to move forward with it? 00:38:45.030 --> 00:38:51.405 Because the positive is, it enables a lot of us to have a career. 00:38:51.915 --> 00:38:53.245 A livelihood, right? 00:38:53.305 --> 00:38:57.905 to teach and train others and onboard others into this open source ecosystem. 00:38:58.325 --> 00:39:05.765 And I think until Matt actually challenges the open source, component of WordPress, 00:39:06.455 --> 00:39:11.055 which I don't think he'll do, but let's say like, that is the tipping point. 00:39:11.065 --> 00:39:13.555 Like as much of the stuff that we've already gone through and we're like, 00:39:13.555 --> 00:39:14.745 man, we're not happy with that. 00:39:15.295 --> 00:39:17.835 The way that I see it, these are not your words, these are my words. 00:39:18.900 --> 00:39:27.180 I see it as, until he challenges that, I have to say using WordPress means a 00:39:27.180 --> 00:39:29.110 vote for WordPress is a vote for Matt. 00:39:29.780 --> 00:39:31.230 That's how I've distilled it. 00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:36.640 And until he's disrupting the open source nature of it, then I 00:39:36.640 --> 00:39:41.180 have to be okay with it because of everything that WordPress offers us. 00:39:42.730 --> 00:39:46.360 It's not the most Articulate way of framing it, but that's 00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:48.490 where I'm stuck right now. 00:39:49.430 --> 00:39:49.660 Right? 00:39:49.660 --> 00:39:53.280 I use the word stuck because that's where I'm just like, I don't know any 00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:56.680 other way forward with what we have. 00:39:57.550 --> 00:40:01.780 You know, I see people feuding on Twitter and Blue Sky and all over 00:40:01.780 --> 00:40:04.650 the social media and people are gonna like, oh, we're gonna fork this, we're 00:40:04.650 --> 00:40:07.030 gonna move in this direction, we're gonna get new leadership over there. 00:40:07.450 --> 00:40:15.320 Okay, great, go ahead and do it, but it's so Small, you know, and 00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:17.650 it's just, I mean, it's fantastic. 00:40:17.660 --> 00:40:22.560 That is the essence of all of this stuff, I just don't see it making a 00:40:22.560 --> 00:40:25.430 huge impact where everybody goes, okay, I'm going to go in that direction now. 00:40:27.060 --> 00:40:27.700 I don't know. 00:40:27.720 --> 00:40:29.460 There's no direct question there for 00:40:29.605 --> 00:40:29.765 Robert: I 00:40:30.190 --> 00:40:33.330 Matt: It's just a soapbox moment and hoping to get your ideas. 00:40:33.610 --> 00:40:36.260 Robert: I feel like that's how all of us think there's no real answers. 00:40:36.270 --> 00:40:37.570 There's no real direction. 00:40:37.570 --> 00:40:40.300 It's just, it's Matt made it very clear. 00:40:40.300 --> 00:40:43.540 It's his party and you're either going to hang out in his house and eat his 00:40:43.540 --> 00:40:45.940 chips and, you know, be okay with that. 00:40:45.940 --> 00:40:49.160 And whatever music he plays, you can't be mad because it's his house. 00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:51.780 So you're there and now what are you going to do? 00:40:51.790 --> 00:40:52.180 You're going to. 00:40:52.375 --> 00:40:55.205 It's like standing on his couch and yell, are you going to like leave? 00:40:55.215 --> 00:40:56.265 You know, what's the plan? 00:40:56.265 --> 00:40:58.575 I think that's where everyone has to make these decisions. 00:40:58.575 --> 00:41:00.525 Now it's, you got to either be accepting of it. 00:41:00.525 --> 00:41:05.805 And I've been the biggest anti Matt vocalist, I think that I can find, and I 00:41:05.815 --> 00:41:08.695 still don't have a huge problem with work. 00:41:08.755 --> 00:41:10.165 Like it's not a WordPress problem. 00:41:10.165 --> 00:41:15.045 It's not a, I'm leaving WordPress and I'm going to, you know, Drupal or I'm going to 00:41:15.055 --> 00:41:17.555 stat what all these places are, you know? 00:41:17.715 --> 00:41:18.045 Yeah. 00:41:18.255 --> 00:41:19.615 I'm not going to none of these other ones. 00:41:19.615 --> 00:41:19.715 Like. 00:41:20.050 --> 00:41:21.720 I'm not jumping ship immediately. 00:41:21.750 --> 00:41:25.840 I, if anything, I stayed and I built more products in this time and was 00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:29.040 helping the community itself because it's more about the community than it 00:41:29.040 --> 00:41:30.620 is about just the one guy up there. 00:41:30.910 --> 00:41:31.140 Sure. 00:41:31.140 --> 00:41:34.270 He runs it all, but his input on the. 00:41:34.595 --> 00:41:38.515 The overall aspect of WordPress beyond WordPress is open source 00:41:38.525 --> 00:41:41.395 or WordPress is not open source beyond that it's open source. 00:41:41.405 --> 00:41:43.155 You use it for what you want to use it for. 00:41:43.365 --> 00:41:45.695 You can not be happy that he's the guy running it. 00:41:45.695 --> 00:41:49.165 You know, most of us, if we dug deep into the products we used outside of 00:41:49.165 --> 00:41:53.035 the internet and went, who owns this, you're not going to like the guys you're 00:41:53.035 --> 00:41:55.845 finding up there at the top either, but it's the products you're using. 00:41:55.845 --> 00:41:57.585 So you're going to choose to use it or you're not. 00:41:57.870 --> 00:41:59.950 And you can find ways outside of WordPress. 00:42:00.180 --> 00:42:02.070 There's tons of avenues you can do that. 00:42:02.070 --> 00:42:04.970 But for people that have been in it 20 years, like, you know, 00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:06.150 we've been here for a while. 00:42:06.150 --> 00:42:07.920 It's hard to just go, okay, I'm out. 00:42:07.980 --> 00:42:11.800 And then I'm going to start something completely fresh over here and not 00:42:11.810 --> 00:42:13.630 have no foothold in this space. 00:42:13.630 --> 00:42:15.010 And, you know, that's scary. 00:42:15.010 --> 00:42:18.110 And then now you're like, okay, now I'm dealing with like my family's involved. 00:42:18.110 --> 00:42:21.720 So there's a lot of decisions beyond just, oh, I don't like that guy. 00:42:21.730 --> 00:42:21.990 You know. 00:42:22.110 --> 00:42:24.950 I can say I don't like that guy, but it doesn't change the fact 00:42:24.950 --> 00:42:28.850 that I'm still here using these products I'm building in this market. 00:42:28.860 --> 00:42:31.470 And, you know, you just gotta be okay with that. 00:42:31.490 --> 00:42:36.020 And you can be okay, you can be okay doing that while voicing your displeasure 00:42:36.030 --> 00:42:37.840 for things and then still doing. 00:42:38.015 --> 00:42:38.285 Matt: Yeah, 00:42:38.855 --> 00:42:41.405 Robert: It's, I don't want to ever go too far deep. 00:42:41.425 --> 00:42:43.735 Like I see some people that go down the deep end where they're 00:42:43.735 --> 00:42:46.385 like, that's all they do now is they rant and rave every day. 00:42:46.385 --> 00:42:47.925 And what are you excusing? 00:42:48.215 --> 00:42:52.185 What change are you coping with other than just, it feels like to me, you're 00:42:52.185 --> 00:42:56.505 looking for views and clicks and you want the likes and you like getting retweeted. 00:42:56.515 --> 00:42:57.755 So you're going to do more of that. 00:42:57.775 --> 00:43:01.195 And if I was going to do that, I went the three months at the end of the year, 00:43:01.195 --> 00:43:04.465 I made over a million impressions on Twitter for like the first time ever. 00:43:04.465 --> 00:43:04.865 If I was. 00:43:05.230 --> 00:43:09.000 Like amped up on that, I'd be at two million now because I just go, I'm going 00:43:09.000 --> 00:43:13.210 to do this just solely this, but it's, it gets tiring after a while you say what 00:43:13.210 --> 00:43:16.000 you feel and you got to, at some point you got to move on and just live your life. 00:43:16.090 --> 00:43:16.870 it's bigger than this. 00:43:16.870 --> 00:43:20.040 You shut the computer off and the world is out there and I think we, 00:43:20.040 --> 00:43:21.540 we get wrapped up in this so much. 00:43:21.540 --> 00:43:22.730 We forget that a little bit. 00:43:22.730 --> 00:43:24.310 Yep. 00:43:24.310 --> 00:43:25.890 Yep. 00:43:25.970 --> 00:43:26.800 Matt: I love what you said. 00:43:26.800 --> 00:43:28.230 you know, you doubled or tripled down. 00:43:28.230 --> 00:43:29.490 You started producing more. 00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:33.110 you know, and I think that's, that is the opportunity right now with 00:43:33.110 --> 00:43:36.500 everyone who will quickly turn their backs on WordPress or step 00:43:36.500 --> 00:43:38.470 away, you know, Hey, rightfully so. 00:43:38.470 --> 00:43:41.380 if that's how you feel and that's how you're going to vote, That's totally 00:43:41.380 --> 00:43:44.940 fine, but you know, for those that want WordPress to, you know, to continue 00:43:44.950 --> 00:43:48.540 for all the reasons why, you know, what, why we just said, then I think, 00:43:48.540 --> 00:43:52.350 you know, doubling down, producing more, educating more, creating more, 00:43:53.130 --> 00:43:55.060 you know, and, Give and take, right? 00:43:55.060 --> 00:43:57.310 Giving back to WordPress and taking from WordPress. 00:43:57.310 --> 00:44:00.285 Like, it helps you make money at the same time and you can go and 00:44:00.285 --> 00:44:01.545 sell stuff and build a business. 00:44:01.545 --> 00:44:03.345 So, fantastic stuff, Robert. 00:44:03.565 --> 00:44:06.325 you can find robert@robertdevore.com. 00:44:06.325 --> 00:44:08.875 Robert, anywhere else you want folks to go to say thanks or follow you? 00:44:09.590 --> 00:44:10.110 Robert: Robert DeVore. 00:44:10.110 --> 00:44:12.210 com, Twitter, Devio, Robert. 00:44:12.575 --> 00:44:16.055 This is my Twitter handle on there because someone stole robertdevore. 00:44:16.095 --> 00:44:18.305 com like 10 years ago and won't give me it back. 00:44:20.350 --> 00:44:21.110 Matt: Fantastic stuff. 00:44:21.120 --> 00:44:22.720 Also, check out PluginPal. 00:44:22.770 --> 00:44:23.040 app. 00:44:23.060 --> 00:44:24.010 That's PluginPal. 00:44:24.050 --> 00:44:24.290 app. 00:44:24.290 --> 00:44:27.960 Link will be in the show notes, but that's an easy domain to remember. 00:44:27.990 --> 00:44:28.660 PluginPal. 00:44:29.240 --> 00:44:29.450 app. 00:44:29.460 --> 00:44:30.930 That's the WP Minute, everybody. 00:44:30.930 --> 00:44:32.540 Thanks for listening today to WPMinute. 00:44:32.540 --> 00:44:34.130 com slash subscribe.