Welcome to Speak the Truth, a podcast devoted to giving biblical truth for educating, equipping, and encouraging the individual and local church and counseling and discipleship. Hello. Hello. Hello. We are still on the road.

I'm excited about this podcast. I've got a very tall cool gentleman with me who we haven't had on the podcast yet, but we're looking forward to. I've got Matt McCollin with us. Matt, how are doing? Doing great.

Thankful to be with you.

Yes, Matt. We are glad you are with us. In this particular episode, you all know we've been talking about trauma in varying ways in this particular miniseries, but this particular episode we're gonna be focusing on responding to crisis situations in the church. And before we get into that conversation, I want Matt to talk a little bit about himself because a lot of his life and his testimony speaks so much to this. And so before we jump in, Matt, you wanna share a little bit about yourself?

Sure, I'd be glad to. I did not grow up in a Christian home. I'm a pastor now at Salem Heights Church, but that's a miracle. And I'm celebrating forty years of marriage this month in my Praise

the Lord.

That's a miracle. So let's back up. I was adopted as a little kiddo in Dallas, Oregon. I was adopted to Ed and Francis McCollin in Salem, Oregon. And as I look back on that, the reality was they love me, they raised me, but I also grew up in high functioning alcoholism.

I'm also then residing in a state that addiction is kind of part of everything here in Oregon. Yeah. Growing up without Christ, for sure, even with Christ, it's real. And so I did not grow into Christian home. So as I look back at the fact that I get to do this now and falling into multiple addictions, both substances, pornography, and those things because at 10 years old, nobody's telling me it's wrong back in the day.

Yeah. That's just what it is. All the kids looked at stuff. I know now what I didn't know then and that is that Christ loved me even when I was walking through all that, that I got sovereignly placed in that home, even though they didn't raise me Christian. Yeah.

And that God unfolded events in my life where I met a girl in high school named Lori Goddard, and she was saved, And I was not. And according to her youth pastor, she should not have dated me, and she did it anyway. And that was a problem for her because she dated me and we got married at 20 years old, and I took her away from Christ for quite a while. At 22 years old, I came to my senses. It was a tragic, a tragic car accident.

So, if we were to talk about crisis, I got a call when I was at work that night, Halloween night, 1987 that Lori's little sister was in a a car accident because her drunk high school boyfriend flipped his pickup truck going to the U of O game to see the ducks play Cal. He was in a hurry. 85 miles an hour, flipped his pickup truck across the highway. The top of the truck got sheared off, and Brandy got ejected into a field that right now, if you stand in the field that she got ejected into near Coburg, Oregon, you can see Serenity Lane, a new a whole new facility for Serenity Lane where he wrecked his truck as a drunk kid. I found myself praying for her to survive.

And over a six month period, as she was in a coma for six months, I responded to the gospel of Christ. I did it in my pickup truck, having visited her one night, praying for her to come out of her coma. And I went out to my pickup truck, said I believe all this. I had Christians that had shared stuff with me. I had bosses that were Christian.

My wife was sharing. Her grandmother was praying for me. We didn't grow up in Christian families, but grandma on her side was a Christian. Yeah. So I received Christ in that time, that six month period there in 1987.

And that set me on a trajectory to finding Salem Heights Church where I'm a pastor at now. In 1988, we landed at Salem Heights Church trying to find a good church in South Salem. We did. And every time I showed up to church, I got deeply offended because it was

was free from the word.

It was literally just punching me in the face because I got saved as an addict, but I didn't leave my stuff right away. And so anyway, that's my background. And so then a couple years later, we started working with students because it was middle school where I went off the rails. And then we started working with high school students. Eventually, we're working with the high schoolers and I got a call to come see if I ever wanted to leave where I was working and come be the business administrator for the church.

And I'm fast forwarding. But really that's what happened.

So I

became the business administrator for the church in 2001. Then that's my trail now. Then a few years later, was like, gone through elder in training and they've been training me biblically. I became a pastor of Salem Heights Church. And then I was pastoring the men's ministry in the College Age Ministry.

And then I got given a manual by pastor Justin who had gone to a pastor's conference for The Most Excellent Way, Victory Over Addiction Ministry that was located out of San Diego, California. Worldwide ministry, but that's where they were at. Yeah. I read through the manual, and I went, I agree with this. So I contacted Glenn and Judy Wright, who were leading it, the little old couple that had been doing it for decades down there, and began a relationship with them.

And we started The Most Excellent Way at Salem Heights Church in 2012. Glenn passed away in 2017, and then Judy was sick with cancer in 2020. And she called me in March 2020 and told me that she was terminal lung cancer, in which would we take the ministry. Myself, Rick McClung, who's a pastor at First Baptist Panama City and myself, would we take the ministry so that it didn't die. Yeah.

With her. So, I became the director of Most Excellent Way International in 2020, June 2020 and now, we get to lead that all over the world. We're helping ministries all over the world. Mexico right now, we're we're got a lot of our stuff in Spanish, helping a lot of ministries in Mexico, South America, and across The United States. There's most excellent ways in Europe.

There's most excellent ways in India, but doing a lot of work in in in Mexico and The United States right now.

That is that's quite the testimony, brother. So as that relates to responding in Christ's situations in the church, obviously, given your past and your passion for it and your call quite literally, right, to it. And the Lord delivered you from it and then called you to it as your ministry and pastoral ministry, but then also counseling too. How did you how did you end up in counseling?

Well, that started serving students. You know, when we started student ministry in 1990 with middle schoolers, you're counseling those kids. And basically, I look at adults as little kids in adult suits. And really, when you're counseling a middle schooler through the stuff they're going through and you're learning the word and you're taking them, I do have trembling. I don't get worried about public speaking.

I don't get worried about counseling people. The trembling I get is, am I gonna be accurate with the word to make sure I'm helping them?

Yeah. Because the

word of god can be a scalpel or a sword. Yeah. Hebrews four says that. Yeah. And you wanna bring healing.

And so back then, I really was like, I need to know the word. So, I was I was in the word and just wanted to make sure I rightly divided it with middle schoolers, and then that's that transcended into God just kept people putting people in my path to to take to the word and help them through things. And then that, again, as I was helping folks all the way from middle school to high school to college age kids through the nineties, and then I came on full time as the business administrator. My first day as a business administrator was early August two thousand one. The Twin Towers fell.

Yeah. A month later. And I found myself here with people just walking in out of the neighborhoods here in Oregon just in just dismayed. They're walking to a church because that's where they thought they needed to go. As it's obvious we're gonna be at war.

Right? And now, I'm the business administrator sitting down with people and praying with them and taking them to the word and then, I'm so, I've been doing biblical counseling since the day I got the word and it penetrated my heart and I could help people with what god says, not what people say. Yeah. So, that's been it and so then, helping people out of addiction has been something that I've been about again since I got saved because I just, I know the darkness of it and how hopeless it feels and yet, when Christ sets you free, you're free indeed. Opens that prison cell door and you walk with daddy now.

Yep. And you can sit down in a prison cell with the door unlocked after you get saved. Like, literally go back to it, sit down, and go out, I'm trapped. He's looking at you going, no, you're not. Yeah.

You walk with me. You confess that. Faithful and just. And I and all the unrighteous led up to it. You can walk with me first John one nine.

Right?

Yeah. But then it says, my little children, I'm writing these things to you that you may not sin but if you do, you have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ, the righteous, who's your full payment for your sins, not yours, only the whole world. So literally twenty four seven. I've been counseling that way now for decades. Yeah.

We can help you, but it's gotta be an abide in me and I and you for apart from me, you can do nothing.

Yeah. That's really good, man. And getting into this particular piece of trauma, obviously, crisis situation. So how do you address and walk through responding to these crisis situations? You've got a few here, tragic accident, sickness, adultery, sexual physical abuse, and addiction.

You wanna walk through a little bit of that and as you mentioned applying God's word to these types of things. But as you respond to crisis, walk us through a little

bit of that. How I looked at it, like is I look at a crisis situation as a David Goliath situation. Like for many of us, we're looking at that going, I don't even know what to do as I've got the phone call or all of a sudden the Twin Towers fell and people are just walking into the building. Okay? Whatever that looks like, there's been an accident, there's a sickness, there's adultery, there's sexual or physical abuse, there's addiction, whatever it is, and there's myriads more, right?

But whatever it is, we as a human are gonna feel inadequate as we're looking at it going, I don't know what to do, God, which is a great statement, by the way, going into crisis, because when we get humble, God gets busy. So when we start asking him for wisdom, because we've been in the word, and we know what God's done for us through our own stuff, or past deliverances paved the way for future confidence. David said, I've killed the lion. I killed the bear. God's with me.

I can't lose. I'm gonna be king. I'll take on the giant. I can't lose. I believe going into crisis situations as a believer, it's what we're doing today that has us ready for the day that call comes, whatever that looks like.

Yeah. Am I in the word? Am I looking at things from the perspective of only god knows when the crisis call is coming. He's training me right now to be ready for that crisis call. So, the spirit of god's gonna have me ready.

Yeah. Have I been diligent in my own personal walk but also for whatever ministry I'm a part of counseling and others to be diligently, rightly dividing the word of truth so that I'm ready for the spirit of god to fulfill that promise Jesus made in John 14. I will give you a helper, and he will bring back to remembrance everything I've taught you. Because each one of those things, like I brought up that the tragic accident, so the sickness or the adultery or the sexual or physical abuse or the addiction, each one of those gonna have a different they're all crisis situations the counselor's gonna be put in. In the spirit of God, he knows exactly what you need to share in that moment or not share.

Yeah. Because I I had in that, the spirit of Lord God is upon me because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the afflicted. Sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, proclaim liberty to captives, freedom to prisoners. Right? Isaiah sixty one one.

That same spirit that rose Jesus from the dead, Romans eight eleven says, he's gonna do it. Will you make sure you're yielded for that moment? So when we're working with people in addiction or the person that I'm driving to, I'm driving to a place. I had a young man that came to the addiction group named Zach. He came to Christ, and then one day I got the call from his family.

Zach was working on somebody's truck out in the country. He then got in it to test drive it. For whatever reason, the power brakes and steering went out. And as he's coming down the hill towards his house, he hit a tree and he died. And I got that call out of the blue.

So this guy that I love, this kid that's on fire from God, on fire for God. He's the wrestling coach for Cascade High School. He's the drummer. Trains people in drumming for Cascade High School is gone. We need you to come.

I'm driving over there going, Lord God, I don't even know what to say. Yeah. You get there, but at first, you're getting in there and you're going, Lord, I'm just gonna be here. I'm gonna be quiet. I'm gonna be a good listener.

I'm just gonna I'm gonna see who where the needs are. I'm gonna let you guide me into it. And what he does is opens a door at the right time because the spirit of god's guiding with the right verses because I've been in the word and rolling around it. He brings back to remembrance what needs to happen in the moment. And I look at that for all of those.

It's gonna be different, but it's the same god, the same spirit of god in those impossible situations that then guides us to be able to know what to do in the midst of those times. And the beauty of this is if we're abiding in him and he in us, we will bear fruit. We don't have to worry that somehow we don't know what we're doing. He's literally, for such a time as this, has us walking into a good work that we would have gone. I never want to have to do that.

Yeah. But for such a time as this, Esther, you exist. You must be saying that to Esther in chapter four. You exist for this. You've gotta walk into this.

Everything falls apart for these folks. For me, when I talk about crisis care to our folks in the most excellent way or for our folks here for counseling, it really is what we're doing today has us ready for whatever god's going to allow to come. Yeah. In the future, The good Samaritan knew what to do. He's just walking by and he looks over and he takes action.

We're still in that parable. We're still talking about it today. The religious people were like, no. The person that stepped in and got busy about just the need in the moment uses that. And he gave he told that story for a reason.

No, I think that's great. And I appreciate just setting that up for the crisis because as you were sharing that, what was running through my mind was the illustration and analogy of an EMT person. So all the training that they get, everything that they they have basic universal training as it relates to the body and ways to be prepared to maintain whatever they can within their power and training, but they don't know what they're gonna walk into. They have no clue. But there's but there's that basic training that equips them for that work.

Right. And spiritually speaking, it's the same thing. That word then becomes as Ephesians six says that it the word of the spirit of the word, the sword of the spirit becomes the offensive tool that we use for that work that we're walking into. And I appreciate how you how you presented that. And because it really it's not just an invitation.

It's a call to something that has responsibility, but also a reliance Yeah. On the Lord.

Has to be.

Yeah. And that's an interesting tension to walk in Yeah. When it comes to the crisis because there's always that over the years in counseling, whether it's like pastoral ministry and you were the pastor that walked that young man to faith and so the family knew I'm gonna call I'm gonna call Matt because like my son talks about him, he had an impact on my son's life and we need help and you were the call. Sometimes that's what's happening in the counseling room, That session becomes the call. Right.

And how are we being prepared in those times for such as this like you mentioned. As counselors we may not look at it as a crisis, It may not be but to that person it is and so how do we help them, ground them in the word of truth and those things. Like that's and that's always the hard work in crisis care right now but there are certain events where it is like physically a crisis that has spiritual implications, concerns, worries, anxiety, so on and so forth. But the way that you presented the accident, the sickness, the adultery, the sexual physical abuse, the addiction, that has spiritual implications, that as pastors and pastoral ministry, those are spiritual opportunities that meet themselves in the present, the physical, so on and so forth. And so I just appreciate how you set that up.

But then also offering some practical steps.

Yeah, I think that in the reality of this, if we're not as a counselor, if we're not going to prayer heading in, if we think we got this nailed or I've got this, that, the other thing, where it comes for care, support, or counseling support, or resource report, logistical support, I go, okay, I've got that. But I'm really not going in prayer saying, god, you gotta give me wisdom on how to deal with this. We can find ourselves falling on our face, not helping somebody. But then in the midst of that, we gotta be a practical support, being a good listener and not being Job's counselors. We're going in and listening and we're working through it and saying, okay, God, you give me wisdom.

I'm asking in prayer for wisdom. James chapter one says, you ask, you give it to you generously. You'll never say what took you so long, but don't get surf tossed, so slow down and be a good listener. You're not there to fix something. You're there to show up, and it's gonna matter that you showed up, and it may be that there's a fix, but it's gonna be down the road a ways.

You're there to get things moving in a direction because you're really understanding things, so assuming stuff is a bad idea. So you're waiting and then you're gonna run into situations where now you've got to assess. Is this like a situation where I have to actually, I'm a mandatory reporter? Yeah. I've gotta start process.

Lord, give me wisdom. And if I don't have it, I best call somebody that I know that can give me good counsel on how that. So that's the beauty of counseling ministry at Salem Heights Church and other places, what you'd all do.

Yep. Helping triage some of that care if you're not, if you need additional help.

Yeah. Go to people, gently ask questions, guiding towards being able to share the word, but the word needs to be a scalpel. You're doing it, you're bringing healing, not some a blunt instrument that you just bring the same passages to everything because God's gonna give you wisdom as you asked.

So To to that point though, Matt, I just you mentioned prayer, careful listening, and then the reality of slowing down. But there's also this temptation within that because we do wanna bring healing and hope, but that is the fix. And sometimes we prematurely present the fix, the hope and the healing, and we haven't truly slowed down. And I would say the slowing down begins with prayer. You wanna meet the situation by just stopping, taking a deep breath, and slowing down and waiting on the Lord.

You you gotta start that with prayer.

You do. You're praying. I was driving over to the property that Zach passed away on and family from all over the the countryside because it was in the country. Yeah. We got family.

We got Ken. These are rednecks. And they're driving in their pickup trucks and his truck's sitting there with him still in the truck. And these folks are showing up ever. And it's Lord God, you gotta give me wisdom right now.

And you're praying all the way there and you're praying. A great little memory verse, pray without ceasing. First Thessalonians five seventeen. Great little memory verse. Right?

They all can't remember if there's one. And so, yeah, I totally agree because it prayer is woven in all of this. And as we're listening, we're slowing down in the midst of that, praying. He's going to the spirit of God. He made a promise to Jesus.

He will bring to remembrance what to say, when to say it. So, we can trust his unseen hand through this situation as we can go, okay, I'm here, god. Gotta I've gotta be about what you want, not be pressing too hard right now. Yeah. And yeah, I see that and that we've watched because ultimately, if you're gonna bring hope, you got another word.

Romans eight is awesome for hope. The whole chapter is awesome. Yeah. So, in any circumstance, Romans eight can meet people because it's so varied in its approach to what it's saying because we haven't been given a spirit of slavery leading to fear again but spirit of adoption of sons and daughters by which we cry Abba Father. That's a great verse.

When do you use that? How about this one? And we know that god causes all things to work together for good for those who love him, those called according to his purpose. Okay. That's Romans eight twenty eight.

You pull that too soon. You could have somebody really resenting hearing that too soon. Yeah. But if you go back to 26, in the same way the spirit also helps us in our weaknesses for we don't know how to pray as we should. Yeah.

But the spirit intercedes for us for us with groanings too deep for words. Yeah. That one will meet a room that's in pain. Yep. And then and he who searches the heart knows what the mind of the spirit is and we know god causes all things.

So the spirit of God will give us wisdom with his word in the moment. Yeah. We gotta know his word to be able to have him bring it back

to remember. And there that that is it. You we have to know his word. And then part of that knowing is really the application, which is the wisdom, the wisdom of using the word, right? As you mentioned, the scalpel and being able to make appropriate incisions, things that are cuts that are gonna heal, that are gonna help in that process versus harm them.

And then obviously move from that and then because the fix the only fix that we offer is hope and healing. That's all we got because that's what the gospel offers. So in that, you mentioned some of that already Romans eight, the Lord is with you and for you, and just those are the things that are gonna be grounding in a crisis situation. But like you said, taking your time and assessing, and you might be able to assess within five minutes, but sometimes assessing may take fifty minutes depending on the nature and scope of the crisis. Right.

The individuals, the family that are around. And so for those of you pastors and church staff that are listening and just, okay, Mike and Matt, I hear you guys. That sounds great. But what do I do about fill in the blank? So as we're talking here, Matt, and we're thinking about just this generalized response to crisis, is there any stories that might get a little bit more concrete that might scale us a little bit of, okay, with this particular person, I was able to apply these practical steps within a short period of time, but then maybe the story that you've been sharing with the family.

That's a lot to assess and process and that's a lot of reliance on the Lord, especially if you're dealing with people that are far from the Lord. So can you just speak to that a little bit of just a little more concrete examples of those? Because again, in our churches, we have churches that don't, that may not have a high, at least to our knowledge, A high frequency of usage in addiction, or I say like substance addiction. There's certainly non substance addiction in certain areas that I'm thinking about where that's less prevalent, but there's certainly a lot of addiction that we just don't know about it.

I I believe that addiction if if we take that side of the coin, addiction is false worship. So Yeah. It's selfishness run amok. It's worship center of the human beings between the ears, and then the heart to see the emotion. In conjunction, we worship our way away from God.

Yeah. When we're made in his image to be worshipers in spirit and in truth, the woman at the well was told.

Yeah.

And so pretty much human beings have a great do a great job of of basically worshiping anything other than God. And that can be the Oregon Ducks or whatever insert sports team, or you could

Yeah.

You could let all of it. Right? So I look at this and think from a lot of times we're getting her into a crisis. It's a let's take adultery. Yeah.

Let's take that you get called as a biblical counselor, as a pastor, and there's an adulterous situation and you're either helping the offended one or the offender. The offender calls or you're and you're dealing with that. Yeah. Isaiah 55, it says there, let the wicked man forsake his way. Let him turn to the Lord and he'll have compassion on him.

That's Old Testament. That's seven hundred years before Jesus.

Yeah. I mean, the Old Testament has compassion. It just I thought it was an angry god.

There you go. Because Isaiah 53 just done describing that there's a lamb that will be led to the slaughter that will be scourged for our iniquities pierced through for our transgressions. And two chapters later saying, hey, wicked man, you can forsake your way and turn to the lord. So, you know, we're sitting here with a man that may lose his marriage or a woman that may lose her marriage but they can repent and then deal with their consequences. That can meet them with hope in the moment.

Yeah. Even as they're grieving over the fact that I'm losing everything. Yeah. But god, the spirit of god will bring to a practical application. That particular passage can meet and by the way, I'll recommend a good book if we can do that on here.

Yeah, absolutely.

You're dealing with a situation like that. There's a great book called Torn Asunder by David Carter. That's great book that helps biblical counselors and pastors know what to do because it's a book you can hand to the offender and it will meet him or her right where they're at, or the offended and it'll meet them. And then there's hope for reconciliation in the midst of that. So I look at that and think there's one.

So as we're working through that, that even the person that's coming in for counseling that's got all kinds of consequences facing, We can meet them in that crisis with hope, but they then have to repent, and that's our goal, to see them repent and walk with the Lord. David, you know, took a bit for him to repent. Six months at least. Nathan's showing up and saying, hey, it's you. But then God met him there.

And he then he dealt with the consequences the rest of his life, but he's God's guy. Yeah. Bathsheba ends up getting to have the grandfather of our savior. So she, in the midst of that, in her repentance. So I think we can hit people in that practical application, but when we're working with folks, it really does boil down to God's gonna bring to remembrance because of our diligence.

As we've been rescued, there's gonna be places that we know took us to the right place, and we'll be ready to help with the same comfort. Second Corinthians chapter one says that god comforted us with. As we're in diligent study and saying, I need to have a prism. I'm looking through. There's different ways the light works.

I'm as a counselor, as a pastor, I'm working through these scriptures. I'm getting great content like from you, and I'm listening to these things so that the spirit of God will bring back to remembrance practically in the moment. But I see adultery as being one of those, it's a rubber meet the road, woah, this is hard, and we can help the offender and the offended.

And that's obviously probably one that would target most churches. Because the truth is if we're actually caring and shepherding for our churches, we're gonna find those things out and we're gonna be aware of marriages within our churches that are full of infidelity and adultery. And how are we walking with those? And I appreciate as you were sharing some of those points. Part of the hope in that is going back to second Corinthians and the difference between godly grief and worldly grief.

And just the reality that, and this is hard, but that's part of that hope and healing. But it's also when you start talking about those spiritual components of our gospel components of repentance and faith and grace doesn't negate consequence. And like you mentioned David and Nathan and that was grace at work and God's grace was you're not gonna die like I'm not gonna kill you. Right. But the sword will never depart from your

house. Right.

So there was grace was given but it didn't negate consequence and the consequences is sometimes we just don't know it could cost them their marriage. But their marriage isn't the gospel. Their marriage isn't their salvation. It's like those things and all of those caveats to that crisis is what's what we have to be careful for and we have to take our time in. Right.

Because our theology is really testing crisis.

Yes.

It really is like I can have theoretically a great theology of whatever, but then that theology is tested experientially when I find myself in a situation.

Right.

And then what I thought I believed is being tested and then you find out really quickly what you believe in those moments.

It's very true. Yeah. And I think that's why the whole Job's counselor thing is why we as biblical counselors need to know the book of Job. Like we need to understand it. We gotta look at what the three friends did and failed at because they were quoting things that were true, but they were doing it in such a way that did not help Job nor his wife in the midst of that.

And I think we look at a wife that's hurting over losing her kids and her husband's sick and everything's falling apart. And she says, why don't you curse God and die? They get to the end of Job. God doesn't go after her. He goes after the three friends.

He scolds Job. He goes after the three friends. But missus Job doesn't come up as one that gets scolded. I believe what we're looking at is a hurting woman who had spiritual warfare attack in the midst of that. She basically said what Satan said I can try to get him to do.

So she gets a hiss in her ear, and I believe god is a great high priest who sympathizes with our weaknesses in every way as tempt as we are yet without sin so that we can come to the throne of grace with confidence and grace for mercy, help on our time of need. And I think she went through that. I think you get to the end of the book and people beat up on her because she said that. The reality is she's a hurting woman looking at her husband dying in front

of Literally everything around her.

Everything. Her servants are dead. The ones that survived were only messengers to say everybody else is dead. All your stuff is taken. So I look at that and think to have a working knowledge of the book of Job for these moments too because Job in the midst of his suffering says, as for me, I know that my redeemer lives and is the last he'll take a stand on the earth.

1925. It is the gospel. It is going back to Jesus. And how do we get them back to there? You're not gonna make your marriage is probably not gonna make it.

It's the gospel for you. You're gonna follow Jesus with the rest of your life. Yeah. On either side, the offender or the offended or sickness or, again, take it back to anything. I just found out my kid is hooked on drugs.

He went off to college and he's actually a dope fiend now, and I didn't know it. Now I need help. I don't know what okay. We know where to take you, and we know there's help for your son or daughter, and we will help you get there. But we gotta get you pointed, having all your hope in him, because the center of pride is I.

Right smack dab in the middle of the word is I. We gotta get the I in the middle of him, and pride will take us from Eeyore all the way up to Tigger. We can literally in pride beat ourselves up, say today's my birthday. Nobody remembered Tigger bounce.

That's that was good. But we get into what?

Tigger. Tigger's a wonderful thing. And everything in between, piglet, fearful, owl, smarter than everybody else, rabbit's gonna outwork you, everything, all of the manifestations of pride, I.

Yeah.

But no matter what we're facing in crisis, we can go to people with that where they need to get to in their manifestation of pride that hits them, we're gonna get back to Jesus. So hopefully that made sense.

No, it did. And Matt, thank you for just this conversation and really getting into the reality of crisis and things to consider conceptually, but also practically when we're considering what these things are because crisis care is hard. Yeah. Crisis care is definitely hard. It's not for the faint of heart for sure.

But much to what you said, grace affords it. It's a work that's already been prepared for you. Part And so of walking in it is being responsible, and being responsible and a good steward is knowing his word. Yeah. Any concluding thoughts, encouragements you would say before we wrap up this episode?

I think as biblical counselors or pastors, teachers, shepherds, as you got ladies that are leading departments in a church or men leading departments in a church, we're all counselors. We are made to minister. We talk about that.

Yeah.

That it's only a matter of time till we're gonna have these moments and to not be afraid of those moments.

Yeah. It's not a if, it's a win.

Exactly. You have not been given a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but a spirit of adoption of sons and daughters by which we cry out Abba Father. So no matter what we're facing, the spirit himself intercedes for us. He's gonna even if you're groaning over crud, I'm walking into something I don't know, he put it on the timeline, Ephesians two says, for you to walk.

It's on the timeline. Walk in it, brother.

And and if he called you, he's gonna give you the ability to do it.

Yeah. Yeah. And with that, thank you, Matt. I appreciate it. Thank you for your time.

Thank you for the topic. Thank you guys for listening, and we look forward to seeing you guys at the conference 2026 called the council conference, and I'll have all the details in the show notes. You guys sign up. Don't miss those early bird specials. We'll see you guys next time.