1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,320 Jessie Cruickshank: Well, welcome to the ordinary 2 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,620 discipleship Podcast. I'm Jesse Cruikshank, and I am here with 3 00:00:04,620 --> 00:00:07,980 my dear, dear friend, Christine Kane, Chris, it's so good to 4 00:00:07,980 --> 00:00:11,280 have you here. I just love you so much, and you've been such a 5 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,780 huge influence, and you helped me not feel crazy in the way 6 00:00:15,780 --> 00:00:18,960 that I was made by God. So to know that there's someone else 7 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,000 out there like me. No, we're not totally the same, but you're 8 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,420 such a blessing. So thank you for for being with me today in 9 00:00:26,780 --> 00:00:28,040 in our conversation. 10 00:00:28,340 --> 00:00:30,080 Christine Caine: It's my pleasure. You know. I love you 11 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,180 dearly, man. We are more than friends. We're like sisters, 12 00:00:32,180 --> 00:00:35,660 like literally. And I know I talked to you and I go, Oh my 13 00:00:35,660 --> 00:00:38,420 gosh, there's another person in the world. There's not many of 14 00:00:38,420 --> 00:00:41,260 us, but it's, it's, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad 15 00:00:41,260 --> 00:00:43,960 thing, but it's awesome to have someone to connect with on that 16 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:44,200 list. 17 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,000 Jessie Cruickshank: You know, we, the world, can only handle 18 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,540 so many like us, so maybe it's God's grace to the rest of 19 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:50,800 humankind. I think, 20 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,740 Christine Caine: I think Bob and Nick are very special human 21 00:00:53,740 --> 00:00:56,080 beings. That's all I can say. They 22 00:00:56,140 --> 00:00:58,360 Jessie Cruickshank: they are soul brothers. They are, they 23 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:03,000 are, oh man. Well, what I want to talk to you today about is 24 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,240 something that we both we've both seen and we both care 25 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,500 about, and that is people who know how to operate in their 26 00:01:10,500 --> 00:01:15,900 spiritual authority, and in order to do that, they actually 27 00:01:15,900 --> 00:01:18,780 need to know, like you need to be trained in that. I don't 28 00:01:18,780 --> 00:01:22,760 think it's just that much of an instinct, right? So what I've 29 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:27,980 seen is I've seen people, and honestly, more women now than 30 00:01:27,980 --> 00:01:33,860 than in the past, who get into a position, or they have a role in 31 00:01:33,860 --> 00:01:38,120 an organization, and they don't understand spiritual authority. 32 00:01:38,180 --> 00:01:42,580 They think it's just a job description, or they think it's 33 00:01:42,580 --> 00:01:47,320 just a title, and they start to look at the situation and go, 34 00:01:47,320 --> 00:01:50,080 Wait a minute, I should have a different role. I should have a 35 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,440 different title, I should have a different job description. And 36 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:58,000 there seems to be this disconnect between your 37 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,500 assignment and what God is asking you to do, and and then 38 00:02:01,500 --> 00:02:05,400 how that rolls out in spiritual authority. So I've seen a few of 39 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,920 these examples where things haven't gone so super well 40 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,740 because people didn't understand spiritual authority. But you 41 00:02:10,740 --> 00:02:13,200 work with a lot of different people, you have the opportunity 42 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,780 to see a lot of different people, men and women, walk this 43 00:02:15,780 --> 00:02:19,140 out. What have what have you seen? Do you see the dearth of 44 00:02:19,140 --> 00:02:23,420 training and education in this that I do, or, yeah, what do you 45 00:02:23,420 --> 00:02:24,620 see, for sure? I think, 46 00:02:24,860 --> 00:02:26,660 Christine Caine: I mean, we probably need to go back one 47 00:02:26,660 --> 00:02:30,260 step, and you probably could speak to this really well. So I 48 00:02:30,260 --> 00:02:35,060 grew up. I mean, I'm 58 so there's an age thing here. I 49 00:02:35,060 --> 00:02:40,120 grew and I grew up Greek Orthodox, so and a daughter of 50 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,740 Greek immigrants, so authority in general. So without even 51 00:02:44,740 --> 00:02:47,680 spiritual authority, let's just talk about authority. I grew up 52 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,900 in a different era where there was, by and large, a respect for 53 00:02:52,900 --> 00:02:57,640 authority. There was a respect for people in authority. Now 54 00:02:57,640 --> 00:03:00,960 it's a very different world. Some of the negativity that 55 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,420 we're living in is because people have abused their 56 00:03:03,420 --> 00:03:08,520 authority. There's been a lot of toxicity. And so I think first 57 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,840 we have to go, okay, and people have used the guise of spiritual 58 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,280 authority to manipulate people, to control people. Now you and I 59 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,620 would probably both argue, Well, they didn't really have 60 00:03:19,620 --> 00:03:24,260 spiritual authority that was mismanaging worldly authority or 61 00:03:24,260 --> 00:03:28,820 power or position or title. But it all gets convoluted, and so 62 00:03:28,820 --> 00:03:31,100 I'm thinking some people listening to your podcast might 63 00:03:31,100 --> 00:03:34,400 already be sort of twitching, just that you actually you just 64 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,160 jumped right in, like spiritual authority. It has triggered 65 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:42,400 everything in we probably need to name it right up front. 66 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,120 Because for me, this wouldn't have triggered me in 1990 when I 67 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,000 first started in ministry, because, you know, back then, 68 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,400 I'm sure there was a whole lot going on, but at least in our 69 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,500 ignorance, there was no Internet, there was no social 70 00:03:53,500 --> 00:03:57,160 media. It was a different world, and by and large, you kind of 71 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,800 trust it. And I grew up in a when I then got saved and became 72 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,440 a really, fully devoted follower of Jesus. I came into a 73 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:08,220 Pentecostal church, so we were taught, and dare I say, even 74 00:04:08,220 --> 00:04:11,520 back then, a really healthy spiritual authority. So it was, 75 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:16,200 like, really healthy about, you know, anointing and authority, 76 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:20,720 and how God actually gives you that authority. And so, you 77 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:25,340 know, people weren't necessarily not in my realm at that time, 78 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,180 abusing any kind of even position or title. We were all 79 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,960 in it for Jesus. There was a recognition of the anointing on 80 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,260 people's lives, on the authority on people's lives. And because I 81 00:04:36,260 --> 00:04:39,260 was in a Pentecostal startup, there were not a lot of 82 00:04:39,260 --> 00:04:43,540 positions or titles. So basically, God either anointed 83 00:04:43,540 --> 00:04:46,360 you or he didn't. And I think that there's a lot to be said 84 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,680 about that. You know, the world has sort of so moved, and we've 85 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,500 seen a lot more women step into ministry roles, which is 86 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:58,420 fantastic, but we need to never confuse a position or a title or 87 00:04:58,420 --> 00:05:01,260 a corner office with spirit. Authority, that they might be 88 00:05:01,260 --> 00:05:04,620 really good things that a woman, anyone should have. But what do 89 00:05:04,620 --> 00:05:07,380 you do if you don't have it? I work in so many countries where, 90 00:05:07,380 --> 00:05:11,220 certainly in my lifetime, no woman is going to have that. But 91 00:05:11,220 --> 00:05:15,960 does she walk in spiritual authority? Yes. And can she move 92 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:20,720 in spiritual so when you I think my saving grace has been I work 93 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,960 in so much of the two thirds world, or the developing world, 94 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,440 where I don't know in my lifetime that there's going to 95 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,900 be certain things, where women are put into certain positions, 96 00:05:29,900 --> 00:05:32,780 I'm helping to create pipelines and pathways, but it may take 20 97 00:05:32,780 --> 00:05:37,280 years. But do I understand spiritual authority when I'm 98 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:40,780 around it like, do people carry weight that only God gives you 99 00:05:40,840 --> 00:05:44,080 authority that only God, which is very different to a position 100 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:49,240 or a title or an office or a function. You can't confuse 101 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,820 those things with authority, because I know people that have 102 00:05:51,820 --> 00:05:56,320 got really high positions and titles, but there's no weight. 103 00:05:56,380 --> 00:06:00,100 There's no authority. I was in a meeting. Here's an example, and 104 00:06:00,100 --> 00:06:03,240 I've got no title, no like you know, you could call me the 105 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:07,260 Right Reverend Doctor, Apostle, soon coming, queen, evangelist, 106 00:06:07,260 --> 00:06:13,440 Christine or Chris. I either have anointing or I don't. I 107 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,320 either carry the weight or I don't. It really doesn't matter. 108 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:20,540 But I've been in meetings in various settings with, you know, 109 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:25,100 the Right Reverend, doctor, soon coming King title. And then 110 00:06:25,580 --> 00:06:29,660 someone has manifested in a meeting like, and there's 111 00:06:29,660 --> 00:06:33,080 demons. And these people, like, go running, they've got all the 112 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,740 titles, the seminary, degrees, the position, and they're like, 113 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:40,660 Oh my God. They throw me, like, literally, Chris, go out there, 114 00:06:40,660 --> 00:06:45,400 Chris, go and do it. And I just laugh. And I go, you know, it's 115 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,460 sort of like when Jesus sent His disciples out, no titles, no 116 00:06:48,460 --> 00:06:52,360 positions, but he gave them all authority I've given you. And 117 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,360 you know, the people go back. Well, you know Jesus, we know 118 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,900 Paul. We know who are you? Who are you? And I think that's the 119 00:06:58,900 --> 00:07:02,280 bottom line in a world that doesn't really talk a lot about 120 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:06,540 the supernatural or powers and principalities, other than maybe 121 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:11,100 societal ones. But you know, not real demons or those sorts of 122 00:07:11,100 --> 00:07:13,920 powers and principalities. I think you know whether someone's 123 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,540 got authorities or not authority or not in settings like that, 124 00:07:18,660 --> 00:07:23,540 whether you carry a spiritual weight, so you can be writhing 125 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,440 and struggling, but if you don't have the weight and you get a 126 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,280 position and a title, the danger of this is the enemy is going to 127 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,640 come after you, because if you don't have the weight to carry 128 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:39,560 that position and the authority given to you only by God, like 129 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,240 There are a lot more eloquent teachers than me, preachers than 130 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:48,400 me, way more seminary trained people than me. And I know it 131 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,060 probably bugs some people, like, how does God put Christine in 132 00:07:52,060 --> 00:07:55,780 these arenas? And 10s of 1000s of people on every continent 133 00:07:55,780 --> 00:07:59,020 listen to it. It bugs a lot of people because they want to tell 134 00:07:59,020 --> 00:08:01,560 me, you're not trained enough, you're not qualified. And I go, 135 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:06,300 I know, but I didn't anoint myself. God anointed me, so as 136 00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:09,840 long as I walk in that authority, so can you train for 137 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:14,640 that? No, it's not like a skill set. I'm not like a public 138 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,360 speaker with a skill set. I'm walking under an authority and 139 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,260 an anointing that God's given me. So I've never kicked down a 140 00:08:21,260 --> 00:08:25,340 door. In fact, if it's ever gotten any striving or whatever, 141 00:08:25,340 --> 00:08:29,060 I'm going to pull back because God opens doors that no man can 142 00:08:29,060 --> 00:08:31,640 shut. And promotion does not come from the north, south, east 143 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:36,380 or west. It comes from God. And I'm old school enough, and Jess, 144 00:08:36,380 --> 00:08:40,780 we could spend this entire podcast of me telling you how 145 00:08:40,780 --> 00:08:44,020 many unjust situations I've been in, how many times I've been 146 00:08:44,020 --> 00:08:46,900 overlooked, how many times I've been sidelined, how many times 147 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,800 metaphorically, I've been thrown in a pit because somebody else 148 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,480 wanted to go there, and some things have taken years, maybe 149 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:58,420 over a decade, in one particular case that I'm thinking of, but 150 00:08:58,420 --> 00:09:01,920 God has always used it and Where I didn't try to fight for 151 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:06,660 myself, defend myself, try to establish myself, but allowed 152 00:09:06,660 --> 00:09:11,040 God to do it. God catapulted me further than I could ever take 153 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,220 myself. As I look at my younger sisters and daughters in the 154 00:09:14,220 --> 00:09:17,820 faith, this is something we've got to get right, because we're 155 00:09:17,820 --> 00:09:20,840 not talking about career Christianity. We're talking 156 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,320 about, you know, Jesus said, Go tell John the Baptist, the 157 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,620 blind, see the lame, walk the you know, the sick are healed. 158 00:09:27,740 --> 00:09:31,940 You've got to carry weight and authority. It's not like I'm on 159 00:09:31,940 --> 00:09:34,520 the latest speaking circuit, or I've got the next New York Times 160 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:38,300 bestseller, or I've got the top rating podcast that that that is 161 00:09:38,300 --> 00:09:41,140 not a sign of anointing, that could be a sign of good 162 00:09:41,140 --> 00:09:44,380 marketing. And being good marketing is really different to 163 00:09:44,380 --> 00:09:47,440 being marked by God. And when you can't discern the 164 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,380 difference, then we've got problems, because we're not 165 00:09:50,380 --> 00:09:52,360 really building the church, we're just building a career. 166 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:54,520 Jessie Cruickshank: One of the things that I was taught early 167 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,580 on, one was that all promotion comes from God, just like you 168 00:09:57,580 --> 00:10:00,540 like, like God gives you the job or he does. And give you the 169 00:10:00,540 --> 00:10:04,920 job. It's not actually man who does that. So if you lose the 170 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,280 job, you got to talk to God. If you didn't get the job, you got 171 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,880 to talk to God. If you did get the job, you better be like, on 172 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:15,780 your face, talking to God. Literally, literally, yeah, 173 00:10:15,780 --> 00:10:19,860 well, I was cautioned against early on, was taking things that 174 00:10:19,860 --> 00:10:25,520 God did not give you so that if you, if you took a position, if 175 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:30,500 you took a role, if you, if you exercised even like we called it 176 00:10:30,500 --> 00:10:34,160 soul power back then, you know, you were trying to influence 177 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,280 people, to get them to do something like that. Fell in the 178 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:40,100 realm that was named manipulation and witchcraft, 179 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,960 right? Yes. So if you're operating in a way, trying to 180 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:48,640 make people do a thing or take influence that God wasn't 181 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:53,380 handing you in the room or in the situation, then that was 182 00:10:53,380 --> 00:10:58,600 like that was failing the test, right? That was David and the of 183 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,860 a dolem going, Oh, God's given me this really great opportunity 184 00:11:01,860 --> 00:11:06,360 to kill Saul. Gonna take it. And so what we were taught was to 185 00:11:06,540 --> 00:11:09,660 two things to kind of counteract that. One, we were taught to 186 00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:13,740 hear the Holy Spirit like you. You need to know what God is 187 00:11:13,740 --> 00:11:16,620 saying versus what people are saying, whether the people are 188 00:11:16,620 --> 00:11:19,680 trying to celebrate you, And God's like, yeah, no, not. This 189 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:22,460 is not for you, and they're trying to push you forward, 190 00:11:22,460 --> 00:11:25,400 right? So one was to hear God, and the other one was that 191 00:11:25,820 --> 00:11:29,240 authority is based on your assignment, which comes from 192 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,540 alignment with who you're, who you are, your identity, right? 193 00:11:32,540 --> 00:11:38,420 It's identity based, not title based, not position based. And 194 00:11:38,420 --> 00:11:43,180 so you need to know who you are, because that alignment creates 195 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:47,200 the authority the pathway for anointing. Anointing is a 196 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,640 measure of how much in alignment you are with who God says you 197 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,940 are and what he's asking you to do. So what were you taught? How 198 00:11:54,940 --> 00:11:59,740 do you see identity, assignment, authority and anointing? You 199 00:11:59,740 --> 00:12:01,560 know, connect with one another. Yeah, I 200 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:04,980 Christine Caine: think you and I obviously we our world collided, 201 00:12:04,980 --> 00:12:08,700 because we were taught very much the same thing, I think, in this 202 00:12:08,700 --> 00:12:11,820 cultural moment. So of course, we didn't have an internet, we 203 00:12:11,820 --> 00:12:15,900 didn't have social media, and we didn't quite have the outrage 204 00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:18,660 culture that we well, certainly you didn't have it on your 205 00:12:18,660 --> 00:12:23,960 phone, 24/7, so that there was that. I'm sure it existed. But 206 00:12:24,980 --> 00:12:28,160 the issue is this utter dependence on the Holy Spirit. 207 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,460 We've convoluted because we go, okay, these people are 208 00:12:31,580 --> 00:12:36,020 gatekeepers, and these people, I think what we have forgotten is, 209 00:12:36,140 --> 00:12:39,140 when you're filled with the Spirit of God, the same spirit 210 00:12:39,140 --> 00:12:43,480 that raised Jesus from the dead, you either believe right from 211 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:48,580 the birth of the church. God opens door like God opens doors 212 00:12:48,580 --> 00:12:51,580 and makes ways where there are no ways. He still parts Red 213 00:12:51,580 --> 00:12:54,400 Seas. He still pushes back river Jordans. He still tears down 214 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,480 Jerry go walls. He when we put all the power into well, they're 215 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,300 the gatekeepers, and they're stopping me. Well, we can't, in 216 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:08,340 one phrase, preach that nothing can stop God, that God's will 217 00:13:08,340 --> 00:13:11,640 will always be done, and that, you know, so you can't say, I 218 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:15,180 believe that, and then go, but the gatekeepers are stopping me. 219 00:13:15,180 --> 00:13:18,960 Now, are there unjust systems even? Because in the 220 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,320 institutionalized church, it's a man made structure. So of 221 00:13:21,500 --> 00:13:25,160 course, there are unjust systems, but I've always 222 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,060 thought, okay if I was in a secular job and and always think 223 00:13:29,060 --> 00:13:32,180 about this way. And I went to my past to say and say, I'm having 224 00:13:32,180 --> 00:13:36,620 this real struggle at work, and my boss is trying to stop me 225 00:13:36,620 --> 00:13:39,080 from being promoted, and they're taking all the credit for my 226 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,920 work, and it's not fair. I've been there longer. And someone 227 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:46,060 else you know now, any pastor worth their salt would be like, 228 00:13:46,060 --> 00:13:49,840 Okay, if God has you there on assignment, let's believe God. 229 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,080 Let's pray. Let's okay. How are you going to display the fruit 230 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,840 of the Spirit? How are you going to trust God? All of a sudden, 231 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:59,260 when it comes into the sort of vocational ministry realm, we 232 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,880 suddenly think, I don't know where we think we're going to 233 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:06,600 get tested. I don't know where we think we why we think we're 234 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,700 not going to have to go through all that, just like we would 235 00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:11,820 expect everyone in our church to go through that in whatever 236 00:14:11,820 --> 00:14:15,300 circumstance they are, some reason, really early on 1990 237 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:20,160 when I started, I had this revelation that, oh, I guess 238 00:14:20,220 --> 00:14:23,000 this is where I'm going to so when you know maybe one of my 239 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,300 leaders or now, of course, let's put the caveat out there. So in 240 00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:28,880 Holland writes any letters, we are not talking about any form 241 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,760 of abuse, anything illegal, anything criminal, anything 242 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,960 immoral. That's the caveat, of course. But I'm just talking 243 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,800 about the stuff that just is life, that people are people, 244 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,460 and people are selfish and people are narcissistic, and 245 00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:46,060 there is certain things that, you know, there's greed and 246 00:14:46,060 --> 00:14:49,420 there's ego, and there's jealousy and all the normal and 247 00:14:49,420 --> 00:14:53,380 there's just even miscommunication, and yes and 248 00:14:53,380 --> 00:14:56,860 that, and there's just what, and there's my own selfish ambition 249 00:14:56,980 --> 00:14:59,920 as well as everything else. Okay, so we all love to think. 250 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,660 Our own motives are pure. Where else are our motives going to be 251 00:15:03,660 --> 00:15:08,460 tested? Where that I'm really in it for God or I am? How am I 252 00:15:08,460 --> 00:15:11,160 going to know the difference between a divine assignment and 253 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:15,540 selfish ambition unless it's tested that wow was I was 254 00:15:15,540 --> 00:15:19,260 obviously in this until someone gets an opportunity I think I 255 00:15:19,260 --> 00:15:24,260 deserve, until someone gets a door open that I've been waiting 256 00:15:24,260 --> 00:15:28,820 for for 20 years, until I am unjustly overlooked. And you 257 00:15:28,820 --> 00:15:31,520 know, so you've got to look at, what is the culture, what is the 258 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,300 world, what is the church? Where am I going to be tested for all 259 00:15:35,300 --> 00:15:38,840 of this? It doesn't mean like, oh, I go into this kind of 260 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:42,640 ministry realm so I can avoid all the tests that every other 261 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,640 Christian in their normal Christian life, in their 262 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:50,020 workplaces that my, you know, brothers and sisters in Iran or 263 00:15:50,020 --> 00:15:53,200 if Afghanistan right now, like, try being a woman over there 264 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,900 right now, right? You know, I mean, people go, you go to the 265 00:15:55,900 --> 00:15:58,360 extreme. Well, of course, I go to the extreme because it's got 266 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,680 the same Bibles got to work there as it does for my women 267 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,280 that I minister to in townships in South Africa or in slums in 268 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,300 Brazil. The same with me. It's not all of a sudden, well, you 269 00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:12,600 know, because I live in this country with this thing, I 270 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,620 should be somehow exempt from the same spiritual tests that 271 00:16:16,620 --> 00:16:20,480 everybody goes through this test to promotion, there's there's 272 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,280 every increased level of anointing that I have in my life 273 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:31,700 has only ever come after a profound season of crushing. And 274 00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:34,340 where am I crushed? Because I'm in the church world, that's 275 00:16:34,340 --> 00:16:36,920 where my crushing is going to happen. My crushing is going to 276 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,660 happen, and my motives are going to be purified, and I'm going to 277 00:16:40,660 --> 00:16:43,900 be tested and I'm going to be challenged and I'm going to be 278 00:16:43,900 --> 00:16:46,960 corrected, it's going to be in this setting, because that's 279 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:52,300 where that setting is for me. And so that's where I know, Is 280 00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:56,380 God really on my life? And is God opening a door, or am I 281 00:16:56,380 --> 00:16:59,440 trying to push something open? Do I think I'm entitled? And I'm 282 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,440 telling you, some of these things are huge tests. Like, 283 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,340 Christine in total for what I saved you from hell and death. 284 00:17:05,340 --> 00:17:09,420 Like, really, like, you get to do this, and you, you start to 285 00:17:09,420 --> 00:17:13,680 look at your own heart and go, Wow, because, you know, if 286 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:18,120 there's that sort of competition or comparison, and then I get 287 00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:20,780 back to, I'm not in faith, because I'm not really trusting 288 00:17:20,780 --> 00:17:25,160 God, because faith is predicated on trust not understanding. Now, 289 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,280 if I want to understand everything and make sure it's 290 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:32,720 just according to my system or it happens my way or in my 291 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,840 timing, then I'm really not trusting God anymore, and I'm 292 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,140 really not in faith anymore. I'm on a career path and I'm trying 293 00:17:39,140 --> 00:17:42,820 to make things happen. I'm not saying because I've spent my 294 00:17:42,820 --> 00:17:45,580 life the things that I do with propel the things that I do is I 295 00:17:45,580 --> 00:17:49,240 try to create pipelines and pathways to give people great 296 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,960 opportunities and to allow the Spirit to flow and to do what he 297 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,220 needs to do. But there's always going to be, not only flaws in 298 00:17:57,220 --> 00:18:00,480 the system, there is a real, live enemy that wants to steal, 299 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,380 kill and destroy. So that enemy is going to come in no matter 300 00:18:04,380 --> 00:18:10,020 how perfect a system is, because our motives have to be tested. 301 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,860 Our anointing to grow is only going to come through crushing 302 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,880 and our motives are only going to be sifted in that kind of 303 00:18:17,940 --> 00:18:22,520 environment when we just think, I've got a gift, therefore I 304 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,900 deserve a position. We've got a problem, because it's not your 305 00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:31,520 gift makes room for you, but being marked by God and your 306 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,420 anointing is what keeps you in the room and what enables you to 307 00:18:35,420 --> 00:18:40,340 truly do ministry. A gift can entertain a crowd. A gift can 308 00:18:40,580 --> 00:18:44,080 draw a crowd, but only the anointing breaks yokes and 309 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,560 chains and bondages. And to be anointed, you got to be crushed. 310 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,880 And to be crushed means you have to go through a process everyone 311 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,000 has. It's all throughout Scripture. David was anointed in 312 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,260 First Samuel 16, but he wasn't appointed until Second Samuel 313 00:18:59,260 --> 00:19:02,820 chapter five, so 20 chapters, 20 years later, between anointing 314 00:19:02,820 --> 00:19:06,000 and appointing. And during that time, he was, you know, chased 315 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,160 by Saul, tried to kill, and lived in caves and and we forget 316 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,740 all of that. What we do is, because we live in a snap and 317 00:19:13,740 --> 00:19:16,320 upload era, we think, Oh, I got an anointing. So you might have 318 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,840 got a prophetic word, or just in your own quiet time, you have a 319 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,800 sense that the Lord's called you. And so then the next day, 320 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,880 you're posting that on Instagram. And because we can't 321 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,780 discern, we think the culture which is all about hustle, build 322 00:19:29,780 --> 00:19:32,720 your brand, make it well, I'm like, well, that's dangerous, 323 00:19:33,020 --> 00:19:37,580 because we then bring those things into instead of allowing 324 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:40,940 God to open doors, and when we get a sense, he wants to use us 325 00:19:40,940 --> 00:19:44,380 in a particular way. What in my day, what that meant was, you 326 00:19:44,380 --> 00:19:47,200 get into the prayer closet and you get on your face, and you 327 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,600 start allowing the Holy Spirit to do a deep work in you, 328 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,840 because you want to make sure that this, the light of God on 329 00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:55,660 the inside of you is greater than any spotlight that comes on 330 00:19:55,660 --> 00:19:58,540 you, because the light that is on you will destroy you, as 331 00:19:58,540 --> 00:20:01,560 we've seen in the last few years. Is if the light that is 332 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,400 within you isn't stronger. So in my day, if you got a prophetic 333 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,820 word, and I got many in the 90s, like a lot of what I'm doing 334 00:20:08,820 --> 00:20:12,300 today, even if there's a cessation of listening to this, 335 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,600 if they were to listen to, well, back then, it was cassette 336 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,080 tapes, which I've had now turned on. Now had hypnotized. But if 337 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,840 you hear my prophetic words from 1990 you would I mean, even the 338 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,680 most ardent Cessationist would freak, because they'd look at my 339 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,380 life now and go, it's happened like, yeah, look at because they 340 00:20:30,380 --> 00:20:35,120 see me now. But when I got those words, my next thought was 341 00:20:35,120 --> 00:20:39,500 never, well, step aside. The fourth part of the Trinity has 342 00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:43,600 arrived. Give me that corner office. Did you not hear that I 343 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:48,760 am the next it was on my face. I could tell you, I think I'm 344 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:53,920 being 100% sincere with you, on my face, with my intercessory 345 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,180 team going, God prepare me. And then the next prayer is, Lord, 346 00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:01,080 Try me. See if there's any either way, God prepare I don't 347 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,780 want to be like David. I don't want to fall. I want to, you 348 00:21:03,780 --> 00:21:07,440 know, like it was those it sent you to your knees, not to your 349 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,100 social media account to tell everyone. Hashtag, bless 350 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,660 hashtag, called hashtag, if you want to book me, it just was 351 00:21:15,660 --> 00:21:22,340 just never. Wasn't even enough. King, to this day, I've never 352 00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:25,280 given a card to someone in a green room and gone. You know, 353 00:21:26,060 --> 00:21:29,780 like never in my entire life does it even occur to me it's 354 00:21:29,780 --> 00:21:33,320 gone. And it's very hard for some people to believe that, but 355 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,660 it is that that's how it's been for 35 years. 356 00:21:35,660 --> 00:21:37,700 Jessie Cruickshank: We were taught that when you got a 357 00:21:37,700 --> 00:21:41,740 prophetic word, like it was going to be tested. It was going 358 00:21:41,740 --> 00:21:46,480 to there was trial coming. Like, you were vetted and tested and 359 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,120 like that was, that was the thing you're supposed to hold on 360 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:53,200 to through the suck and the suffering that here's God's 361 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,880 outcome for you. And yeah, we've replaced that with entitlement 362 00:21:58,180 --> 00:22:03,360 for the thing. And somehow we've edited out, yeah, the testing 363 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:04,380 part, yeah. And 364 00:22:04,380 --> 00:22:07,080 Christine Caine: the why of the thing, the why of the thing, was 365 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,620 you had fear and trepidation, like I was, to the point where I 366 00:22:10,620 --> 00:22:13,800 was like, I remember even in our early years of marriage, because 367 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,380 I couldn't go anywhere without someone prophesy and I'd be 368 00:22:16,380 --> 00:22:19,380 going to even want to go in that room. I don't even want like, 369 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,480 because it would be like, this healthy, but this fear of the 370 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,560 Lord, like, oh my gosh, because with it comes great 371 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,680 responsibility. I still feel this at 50. I remember my 372 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,740 spiritual mother said to me early days, Chris, be really 373 00:22:33,740 --> 00:22:37,460 careful what you pray for. Be really careful about how many 374 00:22:37,460 --> 00:22:40,480 people you know you want to pray. People pray, Lord help me 375 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,600 reach millions. And she goes, because the amount of people 376 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,700 that you can help is the amount of people you can hurt. So be 377 00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:53,080 really and I'm telling you to this day, I'm still so cognizant 378 00:22:53,140 --> 00:22:58,540 of the weight, which is why I'm not flippant with what I write 379 00:22:58,540 --> 00:23:00,720 people. Why don't you weigh in on everything? Why don't I'm 380 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,520 like unless the Lord tells me to I am willing for you to 381 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:09,660 misunderstand me than for me to do something that the Lord has 382 00:23:09,660 --> 00:23:10,380 not asked me to do. 383 00:23:10,980 --> 00:23:13,680 Jessie Cruickshank: I love that because the fear of the Lord 384 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,620 then being what guards you there for me, it's interesting, like 385 00:23:16,620 --> 00:23:19,500 why we don't talk about this anymore, or why we haven't 386 00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:22,280 talked about it in a long time, because I was trained in the 387 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,620 early 90s in this as well. So do you 388 00:23:24,620 --> 00:23:27,140 Christine Caine: think it's because of what's happened and 389 00:23:27,140 --> 00:23:29,900 this sort of anti institutionalized, anti 390 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,900 institutionalism, or do you think it's part of the cultural 391 00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:34,700 I'm actually interested I actually think 392 00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:37,040 Jessie Cruickshank: that we've spent 30 years in the Church 393 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,960 Growth Movement, which had a different goal, and the goal was 394 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,780 to put people in classes and train them to be really good 395 00:23:43,780 --> 00:23:48,100 volunteers. And a volunteer isn't based on your identity in 396 00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:52,240 Christ it's maybe based on a gift set or availability. And so 397 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,560 because we haven't helped people figure out their assignment, all 398 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,560 of our leadership training has been for management that's good, 399 00:23:59,620 --> 00:24:03,600 not based on their like, and so we haven't taught them spiritual 400 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:07,200 authority. So we, I think we have a generation of people who 401 00:24:07,260 --> 00:24:11,820 have been trying to find validation for how God created 402 00:24:11,820 --> 00:24:15,240 them, or find validation for what they think God is asking 403 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,540 them to do, and they spent all their time fighting for that, 404 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,860 fighting the injustice that exists in the system for that 405 00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:26,120 that they don't even know spiritual authority is like a 406 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:29,360 thing like, I think it may not even exist for them. I don't 407 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:29,900 know. Actually 408 00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:32,900 Christine Caine: agree. No, I actually agree. And I'm talking 409 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,620 in the Pentecostal church as well as the, you know, the the 410 00:24:36,620 --> 00:24:40,780 broader sort of evangelical church. And it's dangerous 411 00:24:40,780 --> 00:24:43,780 because it's scripture from beginning to end, Genesis to 412 00:24:43,780 --> 00:24:49,300 Revelation is, is it this is how ministry happens, I think, and I 413 00:24:49,300 --> 00:24:52,300 don't know you could speak into this. I think what we've done in 414 00:24:52,300 --> 00:24:57,820 a generation is we've confused activity with ministry, and so, 415 00:24:57,820 --> 00:25:01,500 you know, and influence with anointing. Yeah, we've confused, 416 00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:05,220 yes. And I think those things are very so when I think of 417 00:25:05,220 --> 00:25:07,800 myself as a minister, so I'm not looking for more activity, 418 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,080 whereas a lot of people, if there's a lot of activity 419 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,460 happening, there's ministry that I do that doesn't, that wouldn't 420 00:25:14,460 --> 00:25:16,860 be on my strength finder number one, on my strengths, or 421 00:25:16,860 --> 00:25:19,800 anything like that. It's come out of sacrifice and obedience. 422 00:25:19,980 --> 00:25:22,400 And I'm like, wow, look what the Lord did, because that's 423 00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:26,600 ministry. But I think if all we want to do is what's in my Okay, 424 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,820 let me find where I fit on the DISC profile. What's my 425 00:25:28,820 --> 00:25:32,480 Enneagram number? Where's my strength finder? We have reduced 426 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,480 ministry to a personality profile. And I'm like, those 427 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,760 things are okay. There's, there's nothing wrong with, you 428 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:43,060 know, understanding some of that stuff. But that is not where my 429 00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:46,840 anointing and authority in the kingdom has come from, like my 430 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,740 Enneagram number or my it's so weird to me. That's not what 431 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,980 faith is not predicated on an Enneagram number. It's not, it's 432 00:25:53,980 --> 00:25:57,220 not a personality type. It's, and I don't know that people 433 00:25:57,220 --> 00:26:01,380 really understand that. Is all the good tools, psychology, you 434 00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:04,920 know, science, also, all of that is fantastic. I'm a great lover 435 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,820 of all of that. But I don't confuse that with the spiritual 436 00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:11,400 realm or spiritual authority, you know. And I think what we've 437 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,540 done is replaced, and we're in that. When I look at through 438 00:26:15,540 --> 00:26:19,380 different social media feeds, and I'm like, there's so much 439 00:26:19,380 --> 00:26:22,340 therapeutic language, so and I'm like, but there's not a lot of 440 00:26:22,340 --> 00:26:26,840 spiritual language anymore. And I know there was a missed 441 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:30,020 certain things, like, you know, in church life we missed, 442 00:26:30,260 --> 00:26:33,080 there's a lot of books written now by historians and stuff, 443 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,080 which is great because it was a missing piece. But I don't need 444 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,180 to get all my theological input from, you know, a historian or a 445 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:43,780 psychologist or I'm like, there's still this spiritual 446 00:26:43,780 --> 00:26:48,640 realm, and there is God, and there is a kingdom, and there is 447 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,120 Kingdom authority, and there's a kingdom mandate, and the kingdom 448 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,980 runs different to the world system or a Christian empire. 449 00:26:57,340 --> 00:27:01,920 And I think sometimes we try to just substitute with worldly 450 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,400 things. Even those people that are going, I'm going to tear 451 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,400 down the Empire, but they're still using the Empire's tools 452 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,060 to tear down an empire rather than going. And that's what I'm 453 00:27:12,060 --> 00:27:15,060 seeing, I think, you know, and I want to talk about this more 454 00:27:15,060 --> 00:27:17,520 moving forward. I just don't have all the language for it 455 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,140 yet, but in my spirit, man, I'm like, listen, I run a global 456 00:27:21,140 --> 00:27:24,020 anti human trafficking organization. I put traffickers 457 00:27:24,020 --> 00:27:27,260 in jail for a living. I am all about justice. Everybody knows 458 00:27:27,260 --> 00:27:31,400 that that's not an issue, but I still can discern the difference 459 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,300 between kingdom, Empire, worldliness, and using the tools 460 00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:39,980 of empire to try to tear down a Christian empire, rather than 461 00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:44,500 discerning what is not a flesh and blood, what are powers and 462 00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:48,040 principalities? And I've got to carry a weight for that in a 463 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:52,180 spirit realm, while I'm doing the work of justice, but not 464 00:27:52,180 --> 00:27:56,680 going so down that world where I no longer can discern kingdom 465 00:27:56,980 --> 00:28:01,380 and Empire. So I think you need to write something about this 466 00:28:01,380 --> 00:28:04,620 Jess because you're smart. But there's this, there's this 467 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:10,380 intertwining, and the language is so similar that people, I 468 00:28:10,380 --> 00:28:13,260 think the most missing gift in the body of Christ at this 469 00:28:13,260 --> 00:28:15,900 moment in history is the discernment of spirits. Is that 470 00:28:16,020 --> 00:28:20,360 people have no discernment. So we, in our reaction to hyper 471 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:24,380 fundamentalism and Empire. We're not even realizing in some 472 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,640 areas, we are not fighting this spiritually. We're fighting it 473 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:29,540 with the same tools, 474 00:28:29,780 --> 00:28:31,760 Jessie Cruickshank: right? And that means we're beholden to the 475 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,360 same powers and principalities, right? Exactly, because, just 476 00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:38,480 because you operate ignorant of the spiritual doesn't mean that 477 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,440 you're free from it, in fact. So my mom was a witch before she 478 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,220 was a Christian, and so she taught me about how the occult 479 00:28:45,220 --> 00:28:48,940 works and functions, and it functions through authority 480 00:28:48,940 --> 00:28:52,120 structures. And so if you don't understand the authority 481 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,600 structure in the spiritual that you're dealing with, you are not 482 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,960 fighting the Principality. You're partnering with it, and 483 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:04,080 it's gonna make your dreams come true for three to five years, or 484 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:08,520 something like that. It's going to give you what you asked for 485 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,720 in ignorance, and so it will feel like it's a benefit and a 486 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,660 help and and I even know people who think that that's the Holy 487 00:29:15,660 --> 00:29:19,980 Spirit, but because they don't examine the way in which things 488 00:29:19,980 --> 00:29:22,940 are done. They don't understand the method of the kingdom versus 489 00:29:22,940 --> 00:29:27,320 the method of Empire. They end up colluding with the powers and 490 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:32,000 principalities. And you know what they they win that you 491 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,860 don't. You don't win that though. The thing that beats 492 00:29:33,860 --> 00:29:36,080 them is the blood of Jesus. The thing that beats them is the 493 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,020 cross, right? So you have to stand in your identity as a 494 00:29:39,020 --> 00:29:41,980 child of God, co heir with Christ, who doesn't need to 495 00:29:41,980 --> 00:29:44,680 partner with powers and principalities, because they are 496 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:49,000 under your feet with Jesus, right? So you're seated with 497 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,300 Jesus, so they're under your feet too. And if you don't know 498 00:29:52,300 --> 00:29:57,520 that, you will make partnerships Alliance be an ignorance. Is the 499 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,300 thing I see the most. I see a lot of ignorance that. Means 500 00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:02,880 that you're under their authority, because you're not 501 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,680 taking authority over them. So 502 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,600 Christine Caine: what are you going to say to the people 503 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,080 listening to this? Going, let's see, I can't believe that you 504 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:14,580 believe people still believe in the occult and stuff. You still 505 00:30:14,580 --> 00:30:16,260 think that's rampant. 2024 506 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,900 Jessie Cruickshank: I actually think a lot of spiritualism. 507 00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:22,020 Spiritualism is increasing. Secularism is decreasing. 508 00:30:22,020 --> 00:30:25,880 Spiritualism. Is increasing, but not everything that is spiritual 509 00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:29,960 is good or Right, right? It's not, it's not an everything is 510 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:35,120 is safe, there is darkness, there is evil out there, and if 511 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,300 you don't understand what it is, it'll either put you in fear, 512 00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:41,440 because it's a puffer fish, right? It puffs itself up to be 513 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,980 more than it is, and it intimidates you, or you'll 514 00:30:44,980 --> 00:30:49,120 operate in the ignorance to it, and it'll manipulate you, 515 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:52,240 because it's had, you know, a long time, even though it's not 516 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,060 very creative, it has the same like, it really has the same 517 00:30:55,060 --> 00:30:58,660 five moves, but if you're ignorant, it'll get you like, 518 00:30:58,660 --> 00:31:02,520 it'll it'll manipulate You, and it'll cost you more than you 519 00:31:02,580 --> 00:31:06,120 could imagine you'd have to pay. I just think that we can be wise 520 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,080 without being afraid, and we can't actually be overcomers and 521 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,100 stand in the spiritual authority that God has given us and really 522 00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:19,080 experience the power of the cross if we're naive and 523 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,960 ignorant. And so it's just, 524 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,220 Christine Caine: I think I'm going to 525 00:31:22,220 --> 00:31:24,020 Unknown: train you, just a little bit of training. 526 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:26,840 Christine Caine: Well, you know, you just think, when was the 527 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,840 last time? I mean, I'm talking broadly, you know, I travel 528 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,100 always that you this is going to be all my 2025, sermons, which 529 00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:37,460 is going to freak people out. But I'm going back to the blood. 530 00:31:37,940 --> 00:31:41,560 When was the last time you heard a sermon on the blood, the power 531 00:31:41,620 --> 00:31:45,520 of the blood. And I am, like, already bracing myself. I'm 532 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:50,080 like, okay, it is time. And, you know, I'm old enough now, so 533 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:56,320 this is it, but, but this is the stuff in 1990 9192 93 that is 534 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,780 the whole foundation of my life in ministry, when people are 535 00:31:58,780 --> 00:32:02,400 like, What? What has sustained you to because I understood the 536 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,880 power of the blood, the power of the cross, the power of 537 00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:10,440 understood the name of I mean, even now with people, you know, 538 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,500 so many sicknesses, so many people asking me to pray, and 539 00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:16,560 they always will comment to me like, because my instant 540 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,620 response is always in the name of Jesus. And they like, wow, 541 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,220 you're that. Like, you instantly come back. I go absolutely 542 00:32:22,460 --> 00:32:26,360 people hear me preaching. I don't just say God. I'm like, in 543 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,420 the name of Jesus. I am so intentional because of that. 544 00:32:29,420 --> 00:32:32,660 When Nick and I, we've been doing so much restructuring, so 545 00:32:32,660 --> 00:32:37,100 many things this year, getting up, taking communion, professing 546 00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:39,620 the name of Jesus. I mean, also when you and I were talking 547 00:32:39,620 --> 00:32:42,100 before we got onto this, and I said, I've got no real magic 548 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,700 thing. I'm back up at 530 in the morning. I'm back up in the name 549 00:32:45,700 --> 00:32:48,520 of Jesus. I'm back up taking communion because there's power 550 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,480 in the blood. I'm back up understanding the authority what 551 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,900 is mine, and remembering where I'm positioned, that I am seated 552 00:32:55,900 --> 00:32:59,680 at the right hand of the Father, you know, in Christ, Jesus, and 553 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,820 that I have access to every I mean, we're back to this, every 554 00:33:02,820 --> 00:33:06,240 spiritual blessing. So I have the mind of this. I'm giving you 555 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,180 all an example in real time. I have the mind of Christ. So 556 00:33:09,180 --> 00:33:13,320 while everyone has lost their ever loving mind, you and I are 557 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,580 recording this on a election result. And I'm like, it's like, 558 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,780 my gosh, my phone today. And I'm just like, I have the mind of 559 00:33:20,780 --> 00:33:23,540 Christ. I have the mind of Christ. You know, it's, I'm 560 00:33:23,540 --> 00:33:25,820 trying to be so simple for people watching this, because 561 00:33:25,820 --> 00:33:29,300 this is what it comes down to. I want you to know this is not I 562 00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:32,960 don't have, like, 10 Steps to the successful life, but I can 563 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,480 teach you how to be more than a conqueror through Christ, Jesus, 564 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,140 who strengthens you. I can teach you how, 40 years later, to 565 00:33:39,140 --> 00:33:44,980 still be in it. And my authority is not in my name or my brand or 566 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,540 my books or my preaching. It's in the name of Jesus, but my 567 00:33:49,540 --> 00:33:54,280 joy. So what is Kingdom righteousness, joy and peace in 568 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,920 the Holy Ghost. So how do I know? You know? You said to me, 569 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,840 Chris, what's your litmus test that that you know this is God. 570 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,700 It's like that. It's kingdom. How I know that I haven't sold 571 00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:08,760 out to Empire, and I haven't become part of no matter what 572 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,800 anyone says, part of the Christian thing is that I'm in 573 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,800 the kingdom because I by God's grace. I pray that it's 574 00:34:16,860 --> 00:34:20,300 righteousness. Is Christine, where's that in your life? Joy? 575 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,860 Do you still have the joy and peace of the holy in, in the 576 00:34:24,860 --> 00:34:28,880 Holy Ghost, in the Holy Spirit, not in anything, not in social 577 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,900 media profiles, not in invitations, not in any titles. 578 00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:35,660 I have righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. And 579 00:34:35,660 --> 00:34:38,300 they're like, Oh yeah, I'm still in it. This is this is it. And I 580 00:34:38,300 --> 00:34:41,320 can be in the back of Guatemala, like I just was in the back of 581 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,460 Cambodia, or right here in North America, and there's, like, this 582 00:34:45,700 --> 00:34:50,680 full kingdom, but that's a but you gotta understand the ways of 583 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,580 the kingdom to be, you know, walking in authority in the 584 00:34:54,580 --> 00:34:59,320 kingdom. And the kingdom is not Empire when you can't tell the 585 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,060 difference. Just because then you think, Well, say for women, 586 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,440 they've never been in positions in many cases of authority, or, 587 00:35:08,100 --> 00:35:11,400 you know, Heaven be as they're being elevated. It's so 588 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,100 important that we don't just come like a secular world and 589 00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:18,780 go, Okay, well, all the toxic males with their arrogance and 590 00:35:18,780 --> 00:35:21,200 narcissism were in the corner office. So we're just going to 591 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,420 kick them out of the corner office and we're going to get in 592 00:35:23,420 --> 00:35:28,580 the corner office. This is what I always say. Sin is genderless. 593 00:35:28,940 --> 00:35:32,540 And so I am prone to the same narcissism, I am prone to the 594 00:35:32,540 --> 00:35:38,660 same toxicity, I am prone to the same sin as my brothers are. It 595 00:35:38,660 --> 00:35:42,940 doesn't have a gender so my issue is that unless I 596 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,980 understand kingdom and kingdom authority, I am simply going to 597 00:35:47,980 --> 00:35:53,080 reproduce the toxic power struggles and abuses that we've 598 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,840 seen, because women have never been in those roles, and women 599 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:57,880 have never been in those roles because they never had the 600 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,020 opportunity. Now that we have the opportunity, we better learn 601 00:36:01,020 --> 00:36:03,780 kingdom, and we better learn spiritual authority, and we 602 00:36:03,780 --> 00:36:06,360 better learn the power of the cross and the blood and the name 603 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:10,200 of Jesus, and what is ours in Christ, and who we are in 604 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,380 Christ. Otherwise, we're going to do exactly what the guys did. 605 00:36:13,380 --> 00:36:15,780 We're going to compete, we're going to compare, we're going to 606 00:36:15,780 --> 00:36:19,320 try to tear each other down and and we're going to be back to 607 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,220 square 140 years from now, except we were in the corner 608 00:36:22,220 --> 00:36:26,360 office, not them. So I'm like, Could we just get this right 609 00:36:26,660 --> 00:36:30,980 with an understanding we are marching to a different drum 610 00:36:30,980 --> 00:36:35,240 beat, and it works differently. But once you're settled in who 611 00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:39,440 you are, in him, and you know ultimately, where authority 612 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,820 Jesus says, I have given you so it doesn't come from me. So some 613 00:36:42,820 --> 00:36:44,980 people are going to like me, some people are not going to 614 00:36:44,980 --> 00:36:47,200 like me. Some people are going to open doors for me. Other 615 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,540 people are not going to open doors for me. But that's okay, 616 00:36:49,540 --> 00:36:53,560 because God has given me. So whatever authority and power God 617 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,760 has given me, you either believe this or you don't, no man can 618 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,860 shut what God has opened. This is I don't need to be on X 619 00:37:01,860 --> 00:37:06,780 yelling at everyone. I don't need to be I just like God will 620 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,380 open the doors. God will keep them open. God will keep me 621 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,000 because I really believe this, no demon in Hell, no person on 622 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,940 earth, can thwart the purpose of God. Now, can they make my life 623 00:37:17,940 --> 00:37:21,740 more difficult? Yes. Can they cause me pain? Yes. But still, 624 00:37:21,740 --> 00:37:24,860 Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world. And so 625 00:37:24,860 --> 00:37:27,560 that's what I've got to keep coming down to. I'm not exempt 626 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,860 from this fight. I'm not any more exempt than my sisters in 627 00:37:30,860 --> 00:37:33,920 Afghanistan. I'm not any more exempt than my sisters in Iran. 628 00:37:34,220 --> 00:37:38,240 So who am I to think just because I'm here, I'm going to 629 00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:41,980 get the red carpet rolled out the enemy wants to steal, kill 630 00:37:41,980 --> 00:37:45,160 and destroy my purpose as much as everybody else's. So as long 631 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,640 as I understand I'm not fighting against flesh and blood, 632 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,700 therefore, I don't have to play the power games of the world. 633 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:52,300 Don't get 634 00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:53,920 Jessie Cruickshank: on the chessboard. You're gonna lose. 635 00:37:53,980 --> 00:37:57,280 Your game is designed for us to lose. Don't play the game. The 636 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,200 end. I win, actually, because I'm God's kid, I win. I don't 637 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:02,400 need to play you, period. 638 00:38:02,700 --> 00:38:04,620 Christine Caine: And but then the test is, do you really 639 00:38:04,620 --> 00:38:07,080 believe it? And you don't know that until that happens. And you 640 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,080 and I talk about this a lot, and we're going, man, there's not a 641 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,740 lot of people out here, because you've got to pass that test. 642 00:38:13,740 --> 00:38:18,840 And then when hopefully you can stop blaming everybody else, 643 00:38:19,500 --> 00:38:22,880 then it's time to look in. I remember this one. I know we're 644 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,160 going to wrap up soon. We've got a few more minutes, but I 645 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,280 remember there was this one thing, and it was a really bad 646 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,280 case. It was in the 90s, when I was still ministering in 647 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,000 Australia. I was working for my denomination, and I was the 648 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:40,580 youth director of my state, and there was a guy that had been 649 00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:43,480 over. It only ever had guys. To this day, I'm still the only 650 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,900 woman in Australia that has ever woman period in the history of 651 00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:50,380 the movement that's over 100 years old that has had a woman 652 00:38:50,380 --> 00:38:54,160 in that role. But so it was a real unique thing. You got to go 653 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,280 back 40 years. It was even worse than it is today, kind of thing. 654 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:04,680 But this guy was he was over me initially, and then was really 655 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,000 not happy that the denomination had placed me in this role. And 656 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,120 so I had really set out to make my life difficult. It could be 657 00:39:12,180 --> 00:39:15,000 every story that you're reading, every story about, you know, 658 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:19,500 undermining me, trying to close doors of opportunity, not 659 00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:22,580 forwarding information to me, making sure I was excluded from 660 00:39:22,580 --> 00:39:26,900 rooms all the tick every box about, you know, what happens? 661 00:39:27,140 --> 00:39:30,260 And I remember there was this period, and I said to the Lord, 662 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,200 you know, I was about three years in, and, but I knew God 663 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,680 had sent me and, and that there was, you know, I'm going, God, I 664 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,560 feel like I'm in a pit. I feel like I'm Joseph, and I've been 665 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,380 thrown into a pit. And this is so unfair and literally, again, 666 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,760 how do you explain this? You can't. And you know, for all 667 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,580 your listeners that are going to think I'm crazy, this will just 668 00:39:51,580 --> 00:39:54,460 confirm it. I felt in my heart right then the Holy Spirit say 669 00:39:54,460 --> 00:39:59,740 to me, Well, you better get you better start rearranging the 670 00:39:59,740 --> 00:40:02,340 food. Furniture in that pit, because you're going to be in it 671 00:40:02,340 --> 00:40:05,340 for a while longer before I do. And it was like, this not not 672 00:40:05,340 --> 00:40:08,760 like a punishment. It was God had to do a whole lot of things 673 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:12,420 up here. So it's like, and I just remember for three years 674 00:40:12,420 --> 00:40:15,300 after that, because it was a seven year total, my best 675 00:40:15,300 --> 00:40:17,760 friend, and she was like, my prayer partner. And I mean, this 676 00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,340 is a daily thing. This is what I mean. People do not want to 677 00:40:20,340 --> 00:40:24,200 travail anymore or persevere daily. I'm not saying what this 678 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,340 was. Every we had no cell phones in that time, whatever. What 679 00:40:28,340 --> 00:40:32,060 kept me. We had to hang on and we had to pray. And I'd be like, 680 00:40:32,060 --> 00:40:35,720 Okay, I and she'd be like, how I go? Well, just rearranging the 681 00:40:35,720 --> 00:40:37,880 painting, I'm putting it on another wall. I'm just re 682 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,060 because it was like, I had to be there. And then, when the Lord 683 00:40:43,060 --> 00:40:46,360 did he suddenly. So, you know, when everyone sees my life and 684 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,660 hears my stories, well, you know, I could bypass all that 685 00:40:49,660 --> 00:40:52,300 and just go, wow. And then everyone's like, Wait, it was 686 00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:54,760 straight after that that the Lord not only lifted me out of 687 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,600 that pit, that he launched me onto the global kind of world, 688 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,380 into the global church world. And everyone is like, oh my 689 00:41:01,380 --> 00:41:03,720 gosh, Christine, where did she come from? Look what God's 690 00:41:04,140 --> 00:41:07,860 thinking. I've been sitting in a pit rearranging furniture for 691 00:41:07,860 --> 00:41:10,800 the last seven years. In the spirit. People think I'm crazy. 692 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,560 Well, nowadays, most people would go, I shouldn't be in the 693 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,100 pit. It's not my it's right now I'm again, I need to put the 694 00:41:17,100 --> 00:41:20,420 caveat so that I'm not at all misquoted. I am not talking 695 00:41:20,420 --> 00:41:23,240 about any sort of abuse, anything criminal, anything 696 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:27,320 illegal or unethical, but I am saying there are times when I 697 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,320 knew my assignment. God had not released me for the sake of the 698 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,140 young people in the state. There was hundreds of 1000s of them 699 00:41:33,140 --> 00:41:36,020 that we were ministering to. But he was testing me, and he was 700 00:41:36,020 --> 00:41:39,380 building me, and he was also killing flesh in me, all of 701 00:41:39,380 --> 00:41:42,100 those things that give you authority, all of those things 702 00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:46,600 and and so it was. And so today, people like, how has she got so 703 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:51,160 much authority on a global platform? Because my seminary 704 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,180 was the pit, you know, it was like, it was like there was, and 705 00:41:55,180 --> 00:42:00,660 so I guess I don't know, in 2024 2025 we have to have these 706 00:42:00,660 --> 00:42:05,880 conversations again, I think for fear of sort of any sort of, you 707 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,860 know, abuse or misuse we but I think we're much more cognizant 708 00:42:10,860 --> 00:42:15,360 now so we're aware of things that are not right, but I don't 709 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:19,500 want a generation to miss this vital aspect of Spiritual 710 00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:23,660 Formation and where your power really comes from, because we're 711 00:42:23,660 --> 00:42:25,160 too scared to have the conversation. 712 00:42:25,220 --> 00:42:26,780 Jessie Cruickshank: Well, I appreciate you having the 713 00:42:26,780 --> 00:42:30,140 conversation with me today. And, man, we could talk about this 714 00:42:30,140 --> 00:42:33,020 forever, because there's, there's so many components to 715 00:42:33,020 --> 00:42:36,860 this that I think just are important for people to know how 716 00:42:36,860 --> 00:42:40,960 to endure, well, how to travail, how to hear, God, I find a lot 717 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,840 of people don't even really feel like they don't feel that 718 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,420 confident that they can even hear God. So we'll figure out 719 00:42:46,420 --> 00:42:51,220 what that means for us as friends, collaborators and 720 00:42:51,220 --> 00:42:54,820 conspirators. But I just want to thank you for coming and being 721 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,700 with me today. So for those of you who are listening, this has 722 00:42:57,700 --> 00:43:00,720 been the ordinary discipleship podcast, my guest today has been 723 00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:04,440 Christine Cain, and you can find out more about ordinary 724 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:10,260 discipleship@houology.co that's W, H, O, o, l, o, G, y.co, and I 725 00:43:10,260 --> 00:43:14,580 actually do have a training on some spiritual authority for you 726 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,220 and your team. If you're interested in that, just reach 727 00:43:17,220 --> 00:43:20,120 out and let me know. But my goal is that every person would know 728 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:23,240 their assignment so that they can walk in their authority in 729 00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:25,820 the things that God has asked us to do. So Chris, thank you so 730 00:43:25,820 --> 00:43:28,760 much for being with us today. Appreciate you so much. Thanks 731 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,560 for having me. Love you. Bye.