Jessie Cruickshank: Well, welcome to the ordinary
discipleship Podcast. I'm Jesse Cruikshank, and I am here with
my dear, dear friend, Christine Kane, Chris, it's so good to
have you here. I just love you so much, and you've been such a
huge influence, and you helped me not feel crazy in the way
that I was made by God. So to know that there's someone else
out there like me. No, we're not totally the same, but you're
such a blessing. So thank you for for being with me today in
in our conversation.
Christine Caine: It's my pleasure. You know. I love you
dearly, man. We are more than friends. We're like sisters,
like literally. And I know I talked to you and I go, Oh my
gosh, there's another person in the world. There's not many of
us, but it's, it's, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad
thing, but it's awesome to have someone to connect with on that
list.
Jessie Cruickshank: You know, we, the world, can only handle
so many like us, so maybe it's God's grace to the rest of
humankind. I think,
Christine Caine: I think Bob and Nick are very special human
beings. That's all I can say. They
Jessie Cruickshank: they are soul brothers. They are, they
are, oh man. Well, what I want to talk to you today about is
something that we both we've both seen and we both care
about, and that is people who know how to operate in their
spiritual authority, and in order to do that, they actually
need to know, like you need to be trained in that. I don't
think it's just that much of an instinct, right? So what I've
seen is I've seen people, and honestly, more women now than
than in the past, who get into a position, or they have a role in
an organization, and they don't understand spiritual authority.
They think it's just a job description, or they think it's
just a title, and they start to look at the situation and go,
Wait a minute, I should have a different role. I should have a
different title, I should have a different job description. And
there seems to be this disconnect between your
assignment and what God is asking you to do, and and then
how that rolls out in spiritual authority. So I've seen a few of
these examples where things haven't gone so super well
because people didn't understand spiritual authority. But you
work with a lot of different people, you have the opportunity
to see a lot of different people, men and women, walk this
out. What have what have you seen? Do you see the dearth of
training and education in this that I do, or, yeah, what do you
see, for sure? I think,
Christine Caine: I mean, we probably need to go back one
step, and you probably could speak to this really well. So I
grew up. I mean, I'm 58 so there's an age thing here. I
grew and I grew up Greek Orthodox, so and a daughter of
Greek immigrants, so authority in general. So without even
spiritual authority, let's just talk about authority. I grew up
in a different era where there was, by and large, a respect for
authority. There was a respect for people in authority. Now
it's a very different world. Some of the negativity that
we're living in is because people have abused their
authority. There's been a lot of toxicity. And so I think first
we have to go, okay, and people have used the guise of spiritual
authority to manipulate people, to control people. Now you and I
would probably both argue, Well, they didn't really have
spiritual authority that was mismanaging worldly authority or
power or position or title. But it all gets convoluted, and so
I'm thinking some people listening to your podcast might
already be sort of twitching, just that you actually you just
jumped right in, like spiritual authority. It has triggered
everything in we probably need to name it right up front.
Because for me, this wouldn't have triggered me in 1990 when I
first started in ministry, because, you know, back then,
I'm sure there was a whole lot going on, but at least in our
ignorance, there was no Internet, there was no social
media. It was a different world, and by and large, you kind of
trust it. And I grew up in a when I then got saved and became
a really, fully devoted follower of Jesus. I came into a
Pentecostal church, so we were taught, and dare I say, even
back then, a really healthy spiritual authority. So it was,
like, really healthy about, you know, anointing and authority,
and how God actually gives you that authority. And so, you
know, people weren't necessarily not in my realm at that time,
abusing any kind of even position or title. We were all
in it for Jesus. There was a recognition of the anointing on
people's lives, on the authority on people's lives. And because I
was in a Pentecostal startup, there were not a lot of
positions or titles. So basically, God either anointed
you or he didn't. And I think that there's a lot to be said
about that. You know, the world has sort of so moved, and we've
seen a lot more women step into ministry roles, which is
fantastic, but we need to never confuse a position or a title or
a corner office with spirit. Authority, that they might be
really good things that a woman, anyone should have. But what do
you do if you don't have it? I work in so many countries where,
certainly in my lifetime, no woman is going to have that. But
does she walk in spiritual authority? Yes. And can she move
in spiritual so when you I think my saving grace has been I work
in so much of the two thirds world, or the developing world,
where I don't know in my lifetime that there's going to
be certain things, where women are put into certain positions,
I'm helping to create pipelines and pathways, but it may take 20
years. But do I understand spiritual authority when I'm
around it like, do people carry weight that only God gives you
authority that only God, which is very different to a position
or a title or an office or a function. You can't confuse
those things with authority, because I know people that have
got really high positions and titles, but there's no weight.
There's no authority. I was in a meeting. Here's an example, and
I've got no title, no like you know, you could call me the
Right Reverend Doctor, Apostle, soon coming, queen, evangelist,
Christine or Chris. I either have anointing or I don't. I
either carry the weight or I don't. It really doesn't matter.
But I've been in meetings in various settings with, you know,
the Right Reverend, doctor, soon coming King title. And then
someone has manifested in a meeting like, and there's
demons. And these people, like, go running, they've got all the
titles, the seminary, degrees, the position, and they're like,
Oh my God. They throw me, like, literally, Chris, go out there,
Chris, go and do it. And I just laugh. And I go, you know, it's
sort of like when Jesus sent His disciples out, no titles, no
positions, but he gave them all authority I've given you. And
you know, the people go back. Well, you know Jesus, we know
Paul. We know who are you? Who are you? And I think that's the
bottom line in a world that doesn't really talk a lot about
the supernatural or powers and principalities, other than maybe
societal ones. But you know, not real demons or those sorts of
powers and principalities. I think you know whether someone's
got authorities or not authority or not in settings like that,
whether you carry a spiritual weight, so you can be writhing
and struggling, but if you don't have the weight and you get a
position and a title, the danger of this is the enemy is going to
come after you, because if you don't have the weight to carry
that position and the authority given to you only by God, like
There are a lot more eloquent teachers than me, preachers than
me, way more seminary trained people than me. And I know it
probably bugs some people, like, how does God put Christine in
these arenas? And 10s of 1000s of people on every continent
listen to it. It bugs a lot of people because they want to tell
me, you're not trained enough, you're not qualified. And I go,
I know, but I didn't anoint myself. God anointed me, so as
long as I walk in that authority, so can you train for
that? No, it's not like a skill set. I'm not like a public
speaker with a skill set. I'm walking under an authority and
an anointing that God's given me. So I've never kicked down a
door. In fact, if it's ever gotten any striving or whatever,
I'm going to pull back because God opens doors that no man can
shut. And promotion does not come from the north, south, east
or west. It comes from God. And I'm old school enough, and Jess,
we could spend this entire podcast of me telling you how
many unjust situations I've been in, how many times I've been
overlooked, how many times I've been sidelined, how many times
metaphorically, I've been thrown in a pit because somebody else
wanted to go there, and some things have taken years, maybe
over a decade, in one particular case that I'm thinking of, but
God has always used it and Where I didn't try to fight for
myself, defend myself, try to establish myself, but allowed
God to do it. God catapulted me further than I could ever take
myself. As I look at my younger sisters and daughters in the
faith, this is something we've got to get right, because we're
not talking about career Christianity. We're talking
about, you know, Jesus said, Go tell John the Baptist, the
blind, see the lame, walk the you know, the sick are healed.
You've got to carry weight and authority. It's not like I'm on
the latest speaking circuit, or I've got the next New York Times
bestseller, or I've got the top rating podcast that that that is
not a sign of anointing, that could be a sign of good
marketing. And being good marketing is really different to
being marked by God. And when you can't discern the
difference, then we've got problems, because we're not
really building the church, we're just building a career.
Jessie Cruickshank: One of the things that I was taught early
on, one was that all promotion comes from God, just like you
like, like God gives you the job or he does. And give you the
job. It's not actually man who does that. So if you lose the
job, you got to talk to God. If you didn't get the job, you got
to talk to God. If you did get the job, you better be like, on
your face, talking to God. Literally, literally, yeah,
well, I was cautioned against early on, was taking things that
God did not give you so that if you, if you took a position, if
you took a role, if you, if you exercised even like we called it
soul power back then, you know, you were trying to influence
people, to get them to do something like that. Fell in the
realm that was named manipulation and witchcraft,
right? Yes. So if you're operating in a way, trying to
make people do a thing or take influence that God wasn't
handing you in the room or in the situation, then that was
like that was failing the test, right? That was David and the of
a dolem going, Oh, God's given me this really great opportunity
to kill Saul. Gonna take it. And so what we were taught was to
two things to kind of counteract that. One, we were taught to
hear the Holy Spirit like you. You need to know what God is
saying versus what people are saying, whether the people are
trying to celebrate you, And God's like, yeah, no, not. This
is not for you, and they're trying to push you forward,
right? So one was to hear God, and the other one was that
authority is based on your assignment, which comes from
alignment with who you're, who you are, your identity, right?
It's identity based, not title based, not position based. And
so you need to know who you are, because that alignment creates
the authority the pathway for anointing. Anointing is a
measure of how much in alignment you are with who God says you
are and what he's asking you to do. So what were you taught? How
do you see identity, assignment, authority and anointing? You
know, connect with one another. Yeah, I
Christine Caine: think you and I obviously we our world collided,
because we were taught very much the same thing, I think, in this
cultural moment. So of course, we didn't have an internet, we
didn't have social media, and we didn't quite have the outrage
culture that we well, certainly you didn't have it on your
phone, 24/7, so that there was that. I'm sure it existed. But
the issue is this utter dependence on the Holy Spirit.
We've convoluted because we go, okay, these people are
gatekeepers, and these people, I think what we have forgotten is,
when you're filled with the Spirit of God, the same spirit
that raised Jesus from the dead, you either believe right from
the birth of the church. God opens door like God opens doors
and makes ways where there are no ways. He still parts Red
Seas. He still pushes back river Jordans. He still tears down
Jerry go walls. He when we put all the power into well, they're
the gatekeepers, and they're stopping me. Well, we can't, in
one phrase, preach that nothing can stop God, that God's will
will always be done, and that, you know, so you can't say, I
believe that, and then go, but the gatekeepers are stopping me.
Now, are there unjust systems even? Because in the
institutionalized church, it's a man made structure. So of
course, there are unjust systems, but I've always
thought, okay if I was in a secular job and and always think
about this way. And I went to my past to say and say, I'm having
this real struggle at work, and my boss is trying to stop me
from being promoted, and they're taking all the credit for my
work, and it's not fair. I've been there longer. And someone
else you know now, any pastor worth their salt would be like,
Okay, if God has you there on assignment, let's believe God.
Let's pray. Let's okay. How are you going to display the fruit
of the Spirit? How are you going to trust God? All of a sudden,
when it comes into the sort of vocational ministry realm, we
suddenly think, I don't know where we think we're going to
get tested. I don't know where we think we why we think we're
not going to have to go through all that, just like we would
expect everyone in our church to go through that in whatever
circumstance they are, some reason, really early on 1990
when I started, I had this revelation that, oh, I guess
this is where I'm going to so when you know maybe one of my
leaders or now, of course, let's put the caveat out there. So in
Holland writes any letters, we are not talking about any form
of abuse, anything illegal, anything criminal, anything
immoral. That's the caveat, of course. But I'm just talking
about the stuff that just is life, that people are people,
and people are selfish and people are narcissistic, and
there is certain things that, you know, there's greed and
there's ego, and there's jealousy and all the normal and
there's just even miscommunication, and yes and
that, and there's just what, and there's my own selfish ambition
as well as everything else. Okay, so we all love to think.
Our own motives are pure. Where else are our motives going to be
tested? Where that I'm really in it for God or I am? How am I
going to know the difference between a divine assignment and
selfish ambition unless it's tested that wow was I was
obviously in this until someone gets an opportunity I think I
deserve, until someone gets a door open that I've been waiting
for for 20 years, until I am unjustly overlooked. And you
know, so you've got to look at, what is the culture, what is the
world, what is the church? Where am I going to be tested for all
of this? It doesn't mean like, oh, I go into this kind of
ministry realm so I can avoid all the tests that every other
Christian in their normal Christian life, in their
workplaces that my, you know, brothers and sisters in Iran or
if Afghanistan right now, like, try being a woman over there
right now, right? You know, I mean, people go, you go to the
extreme. Well, of course, I go to the extreme because it's got
the same Bibles got to work there as it does for my women
that I minister to in townships in South Africa or in slums in
Brazil. The same with me. It's not all of a sudden, well, you
know, because I live in this country with this thing, I
should be somehow exempt from the same spiritual tests that
everybody goes through this test to promotion, there's there's
every increased level of anointing that I have in my life
has only ever come after a profound season of crushing. And
where am I crushed? Because I'm in the church world, that's
where my crushing is going to happen. My crushing is going to
happen, and my motives are going to be purified, and I'm going to
be tested and I'm going to be challenged and I'm going to be
corrected, it's going to be in this setting, because that's
where that setting is for me. And so that's where I know, Is
God really on my life? And is God opening a door, or am I
trying to push something open? Do I think I'm entitled? And I'm
telling you, some of these things are huge tests. Like,
Christine in total for what I saved you from hell and death.
Like, really, like, you get to do this, and you, you start to
look at your own heart and go, Wow, because, you know, if
there's that sort of competition or comparison, and then I get
back to, I'm not in faith, because I'm not really trusting
God, because faith is predicated on trust not understanding. Now,
if I want to understand everything and make sure it's
just according to my system or it happens my way or in my
timing, then I'm really not trusting God anymore, and I'm
really not in faith anymore. I'm on a career path and I'm trying
to make things happen. I'm not saying because I've spent my
life the things that I do with propel the things that I do is I
try to create pipelines and pathways to give people great
opportunities and to allow the Spirit to flow and to do what he
needs to do. But there's always going to be, not only flaws in
the system, there is a real, live enemy that wants to steal,
kill and destroy. So that enemy is going to come in no matter
how perfect a system is, because our motives have to be tested.
Our anointing to grow is only going to come through crushing
and our motives are only going to be sifted in that kind of
environment when we just think, I've got a gift, therefore I
deserve a position. We've got a problem, because it's not your
gift makes room for you, but being marked by God and your
anointing is what keeps you in the room and what enables you to
truly do ministry. A gift can entertain a crowd. A gift can
draw a crowd, but only the anointing breaks yokes and
chains and bondages. And to be anointed, you got to be crushed.
And to be crushed means you have to go through a process everyone
has. It's all throughout Scripture. David was anointed in
First Samuel 16, but he wasn't appointed until Second Samuel
chapter five, so 20 chapters, 20 years later, between anointing
and appointing. And during that time, he was, you know, chased
by Saul, tried to kill, and lived in caves and and we forget
all of that. What we do is, because we live in a snap and
upload era, we think, Oh, I got an anointing. So you might have
got a prophetic word, or just in your own quiet time, you have a
sense that the Lord's called you. And so then the next day,
you're posting that on Instagram. And because we can't
discern, we think the culture which is all about hustle, build
your brand, make it well, I'm like, well, that's dangerous,
because we then bring those things into instead of allowing
God to open doors, and when we get a sense, he wants to use us
in a particular way. What in my day, what that meant was, you
get into the prayer closet and you get on your face, and you
start allowing the Holy Spirit to do a deep work in you,
because you want to make sure that this, the light of God on
the inside of you is greater than any spotlight that comes on
you, because the light that is on you will destroy you, as
we've seen in the last few years. Is if the light that is
within you isn't stronger. So in my day, if you got a prophetic
word, and I got many in the 90s, like a lot of what I'm doing
today, even if there's a cessation of listening to this,
if they were to listen to, well, back then, it was cassette
tapes, which I've had now turned on. Now had hypnotized. But if
you hear my prophetic words from 1990 you would I mean, even the
most ardent Cessationist would freak, because they'd look at my
life now and go, it's happened like, yeah, look at because they
see me now. But when I got those words, my next thought was
never, well, step aside. The fourth part of the Trinity has
arrived. Give me that corner office. Did you not hear that I
am the next it was on my face. I could tell you, I think I'm
being 100% sincere with you, on my face, with my intercessory
team going, God prepare me. And then the next prayer is, Lord,
Try me. See if there's any either way, God prepare I don't
want to be like David. I don't want to fall. I want to, you
know, like it was those it sent you to your knees, not to your
social media account to tell everyone. Hashtag, bless
hashtag, called hashtag, if you want to book me, it just was
just never. Wasn't even enough. King, to this day, I've never
given a card to someone in a green room and gone. You know,
like never in my entire life does it even occur to me it's
gone. And it's very hard for some people to believe that, but
it is that that's how it's been for 35 years.
Jessie Cruickshank: We were taught that when you got a
prophetic word, like it was going to be tested. It was going
to there was trial coming. Like, you were vetted and tested and
like that was, that was the thing you're supposed to hold on
to through the suck and the suffering that here's God's
outcome for you. And yeah, we've replaced that with entitlement
for the thing. And somehow we've edited out, yeah, the testing
part, yeah. And
Christine Caine: the why of the thing, the why of the thing, was
you had fear and trepidation, like I was, to the point where I
was like, I remember even in our early years of marriage, because
I couldn't go anywhere without someone prophesy and I'd be
going to even want to go in that room. I don't even want like,
because it would be like, this healthy, but this fear of the
Lord, like, oh my gosh, because with it comes great
responsibility. I still feel this at 50. I remember my
spiritual mother said to me early days, Chris, be really
careful what you pray for. Be really careful about how many
people you know you want to pray. People pray, Lord help me
reach millions. And she goes, because the amount of people
that you can help is the amount of people you can hurt. So be
really and I'm telling you to this day, I'm still so cognizant
of the weight, which is why I'm not flippant with what I write
people. Why don't you weigh in on everything? Why don't I'm
like unless the Lord tells me to I am willing for you to
misunderstand me than for me to do something that the Lord has
not asked me to do.
Jessie Cruickshank: I love that because the fear of the Lord
then being what guards you there for me, it's interesting, like
why we don't talk about this anymore, or why we haven't
talked about it in a long time, because I was trained in the
early 90s in this as well. So do you
Christine Caine: think it's because of what's happened and
this sort of anti institutionalized, anti
institutionalism, or do you think it's part of the cultural
I'm actually interested I actually think
Jessie Cruickshank: that we've spent 30 years in the Church
Growth Movement, which had a different goal, and the goal was
to put people in classes and train them to be really good
volunteers. And a volunteer isn't based on your identity in
Christ it's maybe based on a gift set or availability. And so
because we haven't helped people figure out their assignment, all
of our leadership training has been for management that's good,
not based on their like, and so we haven't taught them spiritual
authority. So we, I think we have a generation of people who
have been trying to find validation for how God created
them, or find validation for what they think God is asking
them to do, and they spent all their time fighting for that,
fighting the injustice that exists in the system for that
that they don't even know spiritual authority is like a
thing like, I think it may not even exist for them. I don't
know. Actually
Christine Caine: agree. No, I actually agree. And I'm talking
in the Pentecostal church as well as the, you know, the the
broader sort of evangelical church. And it's dangerous
because it's scripture from beginning to end, Genesis to
Revelation is, is it this is how ministry happens, I think, and I
don't know you could speak into this. I think what we've done in
a generation is we've confused activity with ministry, and so,
you know, and influence with anointing. Yeah, we've confused,
yes. And I think those things are very so when I think of
myself as a minister, so I'm not looking for more activity,
whereas a lot of people, if there's a lot of activity
happening, there's ministry that I do that doesn't, that wouldn't
be on my strength finder number one, on my strengths, or
anything like that. It's come out of sacrifice and obedience.
And I'm like, wow, look what the Lord did, because that's
ministry. But I think if all we want to do is what's in my Okay,
let me find where I fit on the DISC profile. What's my
Enneagram number? Where's my strength finder? We have reduced
ministry to a personality profile. And I'm like, those
things are okay. There's, there's nothing wrong with, you
know, understanding some of that stuff. But that is not where my
anointing and authority in the kingdom has come from, like my
Enneagram number or my it's so weird to me. That's not what
faith is not predicated on an Enneagram number. It's not, it's
not a personality type. It's, and I don't know that people
really understand that. Is all the good tools, psychology, you
know, science, also, all of that is fantastic. I'm a great lover
of all of that. But I don't confuse that with the spiritual
realm or spiritual authority, you know. And I think what we've
done is replaced, and we're in that. When I look at through
different social media feeds, and I'm like, there's so much
therapeutic language, so and I'm like, but there's not a lot of
spiritual language anymore. And I know there was a missed
certain things, like, you know, in church life we missed,
there's a lot of books written now by historians and stuff,
which is great because it was a missing piece. But I don't need
to get all my theological input from, you know, a historian or a
psychologist or I'm like, there's still this spiritual
realm, and there is God, and there is a kingdom, and there is
Kingdom authority, and there's a kingdom mandate, and the kingdom
runs different to the world system or a Christian empire.
And I think sometimes we try to just substitute with worldly
things. Even those people that are going, I'm going to tear
down the Empire, but they're still using the Empire's tools
to tear down an empire rather than going. And that's what I'm
seeing, I think, you know, and I want to talk about this more
moving forward. I just don't have all the language for it
yet, but in my spirit, man, I'm like, listen, I run a global
anti human trafficking organization. I put traffickers
in jail for a living. I am all about justice. Everybody knows
that that's not an issue, but I still can discern the difference
between kingdom, Empire, worldliness, and using the tools
of empire to try to tear down a Christian empire, rather than
discerning what is not a flesh and blood, what are powers and
principalities? And I've got to carry a weight for that in a
spirit realm, while I'm doing the work of justice, but not
going so down that world where I no longer can discern kingdom
and Empire. So I think you need to write something about this
Jess because you're smart. But there's this, there's this
intertwining, and the language is so similar that people, I
think the most missing gift in the body of Christ at this
moment in history is the discernment of spirits. Is that
people have no discernment. So we, in our reaction to hyper
fundamentalism and Empire. We're not even realizing in some
areas, we are not fighting this spiritually. We're fighting it
with the same tools,
Jessie Cruickshank: right? And that means we're beholden to the
same powers and principalities, right? Exactly, because, just
because you operate ignorant of the spiritual doesn't mean that
you're free from it, in fact. So my mom was a witch before she
was a Christian, and so she taught me about how the occult
works and functions, and it functions through authority
structures. And so if you don't understand the authority
structure in the spiritual that you're dealing with, you are not
fighting the Principality. You're partnering with it, and
it's gonna make your dreams come true for three to five years, or
something like that. It's going to give you what you asked for
in ignorance, and so it will feel like it's a benefit and a
help and and I even know people who think that that's the Holy
Spirit, but because they don't examine the way in which things
are done. They don't understand the method of the kingdom versus
the method of Empire. They end up colluding with the powers and
principalities. And you know what they they win that you
don't. You don't win that though. The thing that beats
them is the blood of Jesus. The thing that beats them is the
cross, right? So you have to stand in your identity as a
child of God, co heir with Christ, who doesn't need to
partner with powers and principalities, because they are
under your feet with Jesus, right? So you're seated with
Jesus, so they're under your feet too. And if you don't know
that, you will make partnerships Alliance be an ignorance. Is the
thing I see the most. I see a lot of ignorance that. Means
that you're under their authority, because you're not
taking authority over them. So
Christine Caine: what are you going to say to the people
listening to this? Going, let's see, I can't believe that you
believe people still believe in the occult and stuff. You still
think that's rampant. 2024
Jessie Cruickshank: I actually think a lot of spiritualism.
Spiritualism is increasing. Secularism is decreasing.
Spiritualism. Is increasing, but not everything that is spiritual
is good or Right, right? It's not, it's not an everything is
is safe, there is darkness, there is evil out there, and if
you don't understand what it is, it'll either put you in fear,
because it's a puffer fish, right? It puffs itself up to be
more than it is, and it intimidates you, or you'll
operate in the ignorance to it, and it'll manipulate you,
because it's had, you know, a long time, even though it's not
very creative, it has the same like, it really has the same
five moves, but if you're ignorant, it'll get you like,
it'll it'll manipulate You, and it'll cost you more than you
could imagine you'd have to pay. I just think that we can be wise
without being afraid, and we can't actually be overcomers and
stand in the spiritual authority that God has given us and really
experience the power of the cross if we're naive and
ignorant. And so it's just,
Christine Caine: I think I'm going to
Unknown: train you, just a little bit of training.
Christine Caine: Well, you know, you just think, when was the
last time? I mean, I'm talking broadly, you know, I travel
always that you this is going to be all my 2025, sermons, which
is going to freak people out. But I'm going back to the blood.
When was the last time you heard a sermon on the blood, the power
of the blood. And I am, like, already bracing myself. I'm
like, okay, it is time. And, you know, I'm old enough now, so
this is it, but, but this is the stuff in 1990 9192 93 that is
the whole foundation of my life in ministry, when people are
like, What? What has sustained you to because I understood the
power of the blood, the power of the cross, the power of
understood the name of I mean, even now with people, you know,
so many sicknesses, so many people asking me to pray, and
they always will comment to me like, because my instant
response is always in the name of Jesus. And they like, wow,
you're that. Like, you instantly come back. I go absolutely
people hear me preaching. I don't just say God. I'm like, in
the name of Jesus. I am so intentional because of that.
When Nick and I, we've been doing so much restructuring, so
many things this year, getting up, taking communion, professing
the name of Jesus. I mean, also when you and I were talking
before we got onto this, and I said, I've got no real magic
thing. I'm back up at 530 in the morning. I'm back up in the name
of Jesus. I'm back up taking communion because there's power
in the blood. I'm back up understanding the authority what
is mine, and remembering where I'm positioned, that I am seated
at the right hand of the Father, you know, in Christ, Jesus, and
that I have access to every I mean, we're back to this, every
spiritual blessing. So I have the mind of this. I'm giving you
all an example in real time. I have the mind of Christ. So
while everyone has lost their ever loving mind, you and I are
recording this on a election result. And I'm like, it's like,
my gosh, my phone today. And I'm just like, I have the mind of
Christ. I have the mind of Christ. You know, it's, I'm
trying to be so simple for people watching this, because
this is what it comes down to. I want you to know this is not I
don't have, like, 10 Steps to the successful life, but I can
teach you how to be more than a conqueror through Christ, Jesus,
who strengthens you. I can teach you how, 40 years later, to
still be in it. And my authority is not in my name or my brand or
my books or my preaching. It's in the name of Jesus, but my
joy. So what is Kingdom righteousness, joy and peace in
the Holy Ghost. So how do I know? You know? You said to me,
Chris, what's your litmus test that that you know this is God.
It's like that. It's kingdom. How I know that I haven't sold
out to Empire, and I haven't become part of no matter what
anyone says, part of the Christian thing is that I'm in
the kingdom because I by God's grace. I pray that it's
righteousness. Is Christine, where's that in your life? Joy?
Do you still have the joy and peace of the holy in, in the
Holy Ghost, in the Holy Spirit, not in anything, not in social
media profiles, not in invitations, not in any titles.
I have righteousness, joy and peace in the Holy Ghost. And
they're like, Oh yeah, I'm still in it. This is this is it. And I
can be in the back of Guatemala, like I just was in the back of
Cambodia, or right here in North America, and there's, like, this
full kingdom, but that's a but you gotta understand the ways of
the kingdom to be, you know, walking in authority in the
kingdom. And the kingdom is not Empire when you can't tell the
difference. Just because then you think, Well, say for women,
they've never been in positions in many cases of authority, or,
you know, Heaven be as they're being elevated. It's so
important that we don't just come like a secular world and
go, Okay, well, all the toxic males with their arrogance and
narcissism were in the corner office. So we're just going to
kick them out of the corner office and we're going to get in
the corner office. This is what I always say. Sin is genderless.
And so I am prone to the same narcissism, I am prone to the
same toxicity, I am prone to the same sin as my brothers are. It
doesn't have a gender so my issue is that unless I
understand kingdom and kingdom authority, I am simply going to
reproduce the toxic power struggles and abuses that we've
seen, because women have never been in those roles, and women
have never been in those roles because they never had the
opportunity. Now that we have the opportunity, we better learn
kingdom, and we better learn spiritual authority, and we
better learn the power of the cross and the blood and the name
of Jesus, and what is ours in Christ, and who we are in
Christ. Otherwise, we're going to do exactly what the guys did.
We're going to compete, we're going to compare, we're going to
try to tear each other down and and we're going to be back to
square 140 years from now, except we were in the corner
office, not them. So I'm like, Could we just get this right
with an understanding we are marching to a different drum
beat, and it works differently. But once you're settled in who
you are, in him, and you know ultimately, where authority
Jesus says, I have given you so it doesn't come from me. So some
people are going to like me, some people are not going to
like me. Some people are going to open doors for me. Other
people are not going to open doors for me. But that's okay,
because God has given me. So whatever authority and power God
has given me, you either believe this or you don't, no man can
shut what God has opened. This is I don't need to be on X
yelling at everyone. I don't need to be I just like God will
open the doors. God will keep them open. God will keep me
because I really believe this, no demon in Hell, no person on
earth, can thwart the purpose of God. Now, can they make my life
more difficult? Yes. Can they cause me pain? Yes. But still,
Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world. And so
that's what I've got to keep coming down to. I'm not exempt
from this fight. I'm not any more exempt than my sisters in
Afghanistan. I'm not any more exempt than my sisters in Iran.
So who am I to think just because I'm here, I'm going to
get the red carpet rolled out the enemy wants to steal, kill
and destroy my purpose as much as everybody else's. So as long
as I understand I'm not fighting against flesh and blood,
therefore, I don't have to play the power games of the world.
Don't get
Jessie Cruickshank: on the chessboard. You're gonna lose.
Your game is designed for us to lose. Don't play the game. The
end. I win, actually, because I'm God's kid, I win. I don't
need to play you, period.
Christine Caine: And but then the test is, do you really
believe it? And you don't know that until that happens. And you
and I talk about this a lot, and we're going, man, there's not a
lot of people out here, because you've got to pass that test.
And then when hopefully you can stop blaming everybody else,
then it's time to look in. I remember this one. I know we're
going to wrap up soon. We've got a few more minutes, but I
remember there was this one thing, and it was a really bad
case. It was in the 90s, when I was still ministering in
Australia. I was working for my denomination, and I was the
youth director of my state, and there was a guy that had been
over. It only ever had guys. To this day, I'm still the only
woman in Australia that has ever woman period in the history of
the movement that's over 100 years old that has had a woman
in that role. But so it was a real unique thing. You got to go
back 40 years. It was even worse than it is today, kind of thing.
But this guy was he was over me initially, and then was really
not happy that the denomination had placed me in this role. And
so I had really set out to make my life difficult. It could be
every story that you're reading, every story about, you know,
undermining me, trying to close doors of opportunity, not
forwarding information to me, making sure I was excluded from
rooms all the tick every box about, you know, what happens?
And I remember there was this period, and I said to the Lord,
you know, I was about three years in, and, but I knew God
had sent me and, and that there was, you know, I'm going, God, I
feel like I'm in a pit. I feel like I'm Joseph, and I've been
thrown into a pit. And this is so unfair and literally, again,
how do you explain this? You can't. And you know, for all
your listeners that are going to think I'm crazy, this will just
confirm it. I felt in my heart right then the Holy Spirit say
to me, Well, you better get you better start rearranging the
food. Furniture in that pit, because you're going to be in it
for a while longer before I do. And it was like, this not not
like a punishment. It was God had to do a whole lot of things
up here. So it's like, and I just remember for three years
after that, because it was a seven year total, my best
friend, and she was like, my prayer partner. And I mean, this
is a daily thing. This is what I mean. People do not want to
travail anymore or persevere daily. I'm not saying what this
was. Every we had no cell phones in that time, whatever. What
kept me. We had to hang on and we had to pray. And I'd be like,
Okay, I and she'd be like, how I go? Well, just rearranging the
painting, I'm putting it on another wall. I'm just re
because it was like, I had to be there. And then, when the Lord
did he suddenly. So, you know, when everyone sees my life and
hears my stories, well, you know, I could bypass all that
and just go, wow. And then everyone's like, Wait, it was
straight after that that the Lord not only lifted me out of
that pit, that he launched me onto the global kind of world,
into the global church world. And everyone is like, oh my
gosh, Christine, where did she come from? Look what God's
thinking. I've been sitting in a pit rearranging furniture for
the last seven years. In the spirit. People think I'm crazy.
Well, nowadays, most people would go, I shouldn't be in the
pit. It's not my it's right now I'm again, I need to put the
caveat so that I'm not at all misquoted. I am not talking
about any sort of abuse, anything criminal, anything
illegal or unethical, but I am saying there are times when I
knew my assignment. God had not released me for the sake of the
young people in the state. There was hundreds of 1000s of them
that we were ministering to. But he was testing me, and he was
building me, and he was also killing flesh in me, all of
those things that give you authority, all of those things
and and so it was. And so today, people like, how has she got so
much authority on a global platform? Because my seminary
was the pit, you know, it was like, it was like there was, and
so I guess I don't know, in 2024 2025 we have to have these
conversations again, I think for fear of sort of any sort of, you
know, abuse or misuse we but I think we're much more cognizant
now so we're aware of things that are not right, but I don't
want a generation to miss this vital aspect of Spiritual
Formation and where your power really comes from, because we're
too scared to have the conversation.
Jessie Cruickshank: Well, I appreciate you having the
conversation with me today. And, man, we could talk about this
forever, because there's, there's so many components to
this that I think just are important for people to know how
to endure, well, how to travail, how to hear, God, I find a lot
of people don't even really feel like they don't feel that
confident that they can even hear God. So we'll figure out
what that means for us as friends, collaborators and
conspirators. But I just want to thank you for coming and being
with me today. So for those of you who are listening, this has
been the ordinary discipleship podcast, my guest today has been
Christine Cain, and you can find out more about ordinary
discipleship@houology.co that's W, H, O, o, l, o, G, y.co, and I
actually do have a training on some spiritual authority for you
and your team. If you're interested in that, just reach
out and let me know. But my goal is that every person would know
their assignment so that they can walk in their authority in
the things that God has asked us to do. So Chris, thank you so
much for being with us today. Appreciate you so much. Thanks
for having me. Love you. Bye.