WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:02.120 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.150 --> 00:00:03.830 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:03.943 --> 00:00:07.033 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:07.038 --> 00:00:11.027 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:11.027 --> 00:00:16.644 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:16.694 --> 00:00:18.614 Here on Equine Assisted World. 00:00:18.614 --> 00:00:23.744 We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, 00:00:23.794 --> 00:00:27.604 established in the equine assisted field. 00:00:27.634 --> 00:00:32.884 This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be 00:00:33.034 --> 00:00:38.284 physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have. 00:00:38.794 --> 00:00:43.204 These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with. 00:00:43.301 --> 00:00:47.201 Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show 00:00:47.270 --> 00:00:50.710 Welcome back to Equine Assisted World where we look at people 00:00:50.710 --> 00:00:55.915 who are at the cutting edge of this rapidly expanding field. 00:00:57.815 --> 00:01:00.715 Today, I've got someone exciting. 00:01:00.775 --> 00:01:02.635 We know we always have someone exciting. 00:01:02.990 --> 00:01:05.890 So this person's no less exciting. 00:01:06.190 --> 00:01:07.470 She's actually extremely exciting. 00:01:07.470 --> 00:01:09.650 Her name is Nina Ekholm Frey. 00:01:09.790 --> 00:01:13.485 Some of you will already know her from the work she's done 00:01:13.485 --> 00:01:14.865 at the University of Colorado. 00:01:15.565 --> 00:01:19.105 Rather pioneering work she can let her tell us about. 00:01:19.550 --> 00:01:23.250 Some of you may also know her from the organization Hetty. 00:01:23.310 --> 00:01:26.930 And if you don't know what Hetty is, you will after this podcast. 00:01:27.555 --> 00:01:32.405 And but she has a much more interesting background than just equine assisted work 00:01:32.465 --> 00:01:39.280 and the study of it and human and animal communication, connectivity relationship. 00:01:40.650 --> 00:01:44.605 So without further ado welcome on, Nina. 00:01:46.105 --> 00:01:47.905 And who are you exactly? 00:01:49.040 --> 00:01:49.860 Nina Ekholm Fry: Hi there. 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:51.780 Super great to be here. 00:01:52.110 --> 00:01:53.070 Who am I? 00:01:53.070 --> 00:01:58.050 I'm Swedish speaking Finn who's known you, Rupert, for quite some time. 00:01:58.350 --> 00:01:59.070 Thank you. 00:01:59.070 --> 00:02:01.465 That's that's where I wanna start. 00:02:01.635 --> 00:02:06.315 But as you said, some folks may be familiar, maybe not. 00:02:06.315 --> 00:02:12.810 I work at University of Denver here in Colorado in the US of a, but, 00:02:12.810 --> 00:02:14.750 again, I'm from Europe originally. 00:02:15.425 --> 00:02:18.865 And at University of Denver, we have an institute for human animal 00:02:18.865 --> 00:02:23.055 connection where we do research as well as professional development when 00:02:23.055 --> 00:02:28.210 it comes to people's interests in in interactions with all kinds of animals. 00:02:28.270 --> 00:02:31.445 But I work a lot with horses. 00:02:31.445 --> 00:02:36.995 And that's also, of course, how me and and Rupert and everyone over at Horse 00:02:36.995 --> 00:02:39.720 Boy 2 how we got to know each other. 00:02:39.720 --> 00:02:43.020 So I think I'll I'll I'll kind of start there with my 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:45.240 Rupert Isaacson: with my Well, let's let's just rewind a little bit. 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:46.140 Of course, yes. 00:02:46.405 --> 00:02:47.705 You and I are old mates. 00:02:48.995 --> 00:02:54.280 However, most people listening are not familiar with that crucial 00:02:54.280 --> 00:02:58.060 piece of background that you gave, a Swedish speaking Finn. 00:02:58.280 --> 00:02:59.080 Tell us about that. 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:03.395 Tell us about that culture and how that culture has maybe 00:03:03.395 --> 00:03:05.795 informed your career path. 00:03:05.795 --> 00:03:08.375 Is is it something very specific within Europe? 00:03:09.530 --> 00:03:09.930 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yeah. 00:03:09.930 --> 00:03:16.090 So, yeah, Swedish speaking Finns or if we're using a Swedish speaking 00:03:16.090 --> 00:03:21.090 Finn word mean it simply means that in Finland, we have 2 official languages, 00:03:21.150 --> 00:03:25.775 and there's a minority, a language and ethnic minority who lives in Finland who 00:03:25.775 --> 00:03:30.995 speak Swedish as their first language and also have sort of a specific 00:03:31.295 --> 00:03:33.595 cultural identity as part of Finland. 00:03:33.735 --> 00:03:39.415 And it's it's a very good question you ask about how it's influenced me or kind 00:03:39.415 --> 00:03:44.330 of impacted me because when you grow up obviously, I'm a or I shouldn't say 00:03:44.330 --> 00:03:46.910 obviously, but I am a black white person. 00:03:47.290 --> 00:03:50.855 I'm a white woman from Northern Europe, and the Swedish speaking 00:03:50.855 --> 00:03:52.795 Finns are predominantly white. 00:03:53.255 --> 00:03:57.675 But there's still a minority within Finland, a white minority. 00:03:58.100 --> 00:04:03.400 And so growing up in a minority status, But I grew up in a what's called 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:09.240 a majority minority area, simply meaning that in my village and in my 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:15.645 county, we were predominantly Finland Svenskaar or Swedish speaking Finns. 00:04:16.265 --> 00:04:23.050 So my immediate experience and my village was about, you know, 200 people or so. 00:04:23.300 --> 00:04:27.605 My immediate experience was really connected to my 00:04:27.765 --> 00:04:29.225 ethnic and language identity. 00:04:29.685 --> 00:04:36.220 But the but the larger sort of area of I'm from the West Coast of Finland, It 00:04:36.220 --> 00:04:41.420 was a it was a particular experience to start noticing things like identities and 00:04:41.420 --> 00:04:47.930 power and and differences like that even early on, even before venturing out into 00:04:47.930 --> 00:04:52.090 Europe, before venturing out into the rest of the world and other continents, and 00:04:52.090 --> 00:04:54.655 then eventually ending up here in the US. 00:04:55.675 --> 00:05:03.120 Rupert Isaacson: So, um, this minority experience I know from your previous 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:07.600 to being an academic life, led you into some interesting human rights work. 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:09.380 Can you tell us a little bit about that? 00:05:09.915 --> 00:05:10.235 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yeah. 00:05:10.235 --> 00:05:15.370 I mean, I I think in some ways, it is a human rights work to become 00:05:15.370 --> 00:05:18.990 a mental health practitioner, to become a psychologist, to become 00:05:19.450 --> 00:05:22.110 interested in in the human mind. 00:05:23.285 --> 00:05:30.680 And so I wouldn't say other than my my overall experience of understanding 00:05:30.820 --> 00:05:36.420 power and privilege in a much deeper way than I did initially when I grew up. 00:05:36.420 --> 00:05:41.045 I didn't have parents or context where people were quite 00:05:41.045 --> 00:05:43.625 aware of equity and inequity. 00:05:44.245 --> 00:05:50.300 But I started seeing it, and I saw it actually very early on in my 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:56.775 village when a Finnish Roma family wanted to visit 1 of the stables, 00:05:56.915 --> 00:05:58.935 but they weren't truly welcome. 00:05:59.105 --> 00:06:04.330 But because of my status in the village and because of my whiteness and 00:06:04.330 --> 00:06:09.435 because of my knowing this very small village, I was able to escort them. 00:06:09.435 --> 00:06:16.765 I was able to assume or use, wield, you know, my privilege to help them access, 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:20.760 you know, what they were interested in visiting horses because horses are part 00:06:20.760 --> 00:06:23.580 of of of the Finnish Roma culture as well. 00:06:23.935 --> 00:06:32.100 So those were some early things, you know, around around my interest in in in, yeah, 00:06:32.100 --> 00:06:38.520 areas of privilege and power and equity, which after moving to the US became quite 00:06:38.820 --> 00:06:44.605 a quite a lived experience, you know, as an immigrant, as a as a woman and very fem 00:06:44.605 --> 00:06:50.200 presenting woman living in a in a whole new place, in a more multicultural place 00:06:50.610 --> 00:06:56.795 than the fairly monocultural homogeneous experience I had growing up, but being 00:06:56.795 --> 00:06:59.455 a minority population, but still. 00:06:59.835 --> 00:07:05.435 So I think some of my interest later on as well in thinking of 00:07:05.435 --> 00:07:10.750 just horses and humans and working now in a school of social work. 00:07:11.610 --> 00:07:16.205 The these things have really informed me in speaking more on or being more 00:07:16.205 --> 00:07:18.225 interested in things like power. 00:07:19.325 --> 00:07:23.465 Rupert Isaacson: So before you came over to the USA you pursued, obviously, 00:07:23.465 --> 00:07:25.245 your early career there in Finland. 00:07:25.735 --> 00:07:29.245 What did you do between leaving school? 00:07:29.430 --> 00:07:30.890 Obviously, you're a horsey girl. 00:07:30.950 --> 00:07:37.080 You're living in this very beautiful, very nature rich part of the world. 00:07:37.215 --> 00:07:39.935 But then what what do you do where where do you go for your working life? 00:07:39.935 --> 00:07:40.995 Do you go to the city? 00:07:41.245 --> 00:07:42.065 What happens? 00:07:43.965 --> 00:07:44.445 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yes. 00:07:44.445 --> 00:07:48.380 So I started actually at the very end of my degree. 00:07:48.380 --> 00:07:51.680 Again, I'm a psychologist working for the Red Cross. 00:07:52.250 --> 00:07:55.795 So I worked for it's called the Western District Red Cross. 00:07:55.795 --> 00:08:01.105 So not as a volunteer, but as a but as a staff member and engaged mostly in 00:08:01.105 --> 00:08:03.860 crisis work within the country of Finland. 00:08:03.860 --> 00:08:07.570 So this wasn't international international crisis work. 00:08:07.570 --> 00:08:12.085 We did we did have 2 unfortunate school shootings, which is very, very 00:08:12.085 --> 00:08:16.825 unusual for Finland, but both happened during my tenure with the Red Cross. 00:08:17.690 --> 00:08:21.470 1 of them in our neighboring district, which meant that we went there. 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:23.820 Our our staff went there. 00:08:23.880 --> 00:08:26.275 So I worked for the Red Cross for a while. 00:08:26.275 --> 00:08:28.775 They're overlapping kind of toward my graduation. 00:08:29.505 --> 00:08:33.615 I also worked for a couple of organizations for mental health, so 00:08:33.615 --> 00:08:37.795 related to mental health in general, but I also work for organizations specific 00:08:37.795 --> 00:08:43.460 to folks who are autistic and folks with ADHD, which started kind of, another 00:08:43.460 --> 00:08:46.660 connection point that we have here Rupert. 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:51.755 But but those were some of my early sort of mental health related work. 00:08:52.645 --> 00:08:55.740 And then eventually, I ended up back at my alma mater, the old 00:08:55.740 --> 00:08:58.160 university where I had graduated from. 00:08:58.620 --> 00:09:05.015 So it was there that I was working still pretty early career in my twenties when 00:09:05.025 --> 00:09:10.110 all of a sudden, there was a a note or I can't did I get an email about this? 00:09:10.110 --> 00:09:12.050 Some somehow somebody said, hey. 00:09:12.190 --> 00:09:18.245 They're looking for a faculty member, an associate professor position in America 00:09:18.705 --> 00:09:20.965 in at Prescott College in Arizona. 00:09:20.965 --> 00:09:25.015 You know, applying for that even though I quite liked the the 00:09:25.015 --> 00:09:27.035 position I had at my old university. 00:09:27.560 --> 00:09:32.460 But that really started that's when things really started rolling, let's say. 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:37.395 Rupert Isaacson: So you you applied for this job sort of out of the blue partly 00:09:37.395 --> 00:09:39.735 from a sense of adventure, I I presume. 00:09:41.585 --> 00:09:42.645 You get the job. 00:09:43.585 --> 00:09:48.050 That seems, by itself somewhat of a tall order. 00:09:48.050 --> 00:09:51.430 There must have been, you know, loads of people applying for that job. 00:09:51.810 --> 00:09:53.030 Yet you get it. 00:09:54.545 --> 00:09:59.385 And you come to America fresh off the boat, land in the desert. 00:09:59.800 --> 00:10:02.780 What do you come there to do at the University of Prescott? 00:10:04.040 --> 00:10:04.360 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yeah. 00:10:04.360 --> 00:10:09.375 So and the the position itself, the reason why I sought it was, again, not because 00:10:09.375 --> 00:10:15.760 I was unhappy where I was necessarily, but because at the time, this is sadly 00:10:15.760 --> 00:10:20.260 not the case any longer, but at the time, Prescott College was well, it 00:10:20.260 --> 00:10:24.045 was I mean, I guess it's still known as this, but it was known as having some 00:10:24.045 --> 00:10:28.740 early, at least experiential learning things with horses kind of Right. 00:10:28.790 --> 00:10:33.750 An innovative in institution that was born out of some sort of Harvard 00:10:33.750 --> 00:10:38.235 Business School experiment about the school of the future, and and they 00:10:38.235 --> 00:10:41.935 were again, founded in the sixties, so not a very old institution. 00:10:42.795 --> 00:10:47.620 But the reason why I applied for that job was because they were asking 00:10:47.620 --> 00:10:51.700 for somebody to come and develop a concentration for the masters of 00:10:51.700 --> 00:10:57.965 counseling students in in the inclusion of horses in mental health, so that the 00:10:57.965 --> 00:11:01.640 the counseling students who are getting their masters and to become licensed 00:11:01.810 --> 00:11:04.459 mental health counselors would then be able to study or add this concentration. 00:11:04.459 --> 00:11:16.650 They already had art therapy and So that's really what I what I applied for. 00:11:16.650 --> 00:11:22.250 That's that's what took me away, so to speak, from from where I was working at 00:11:22.250 --> 00:11:25.695 the time, and I had I had traveled, and I had lived in a couple of different 00:11:25.695 --> 00:11:33.050 places also earlier on, but but that's what I came to do to to to formalize 00:11:33.350 --> 00:11:37.930 some of the activities in the past few years there at Prescott College. 00:11:38.550 --> 00:11:39.050 Yeah. 00:11:39.190 --> 00:11:39.590 Okay. 00:11:39.590 --> 00:11:48.235 Rupert Isaacson: And then you arrive not knowing much about the USA except just 00:11:48.295 --> 00:11:52.260 looking at it from the outside, and you dive right into the college system there. 00:11:52.260 --> 00:11:56.500 And and, also, Prescott is an interesting town because it's 00:11:56.500 --> 00:11:57.860 there in the Arizona desert. 00:11:57.860 --> 00:12:03.575 It's those of you who who know it, it's north of it's of Phoenix, 00:12:03.795 --> 00:12:05.235 between Phoenix and Flagstaff. 00:12:05.235 --> 00:12:09.530 It's sort of as you begin to go up towards the higher country, and 00:12:09.530 --> 00:12:15.335 it seems to be sort of equal parts liberal college town, a little bit 00:12:15.335 --> 00:12:19.675 like, say, Boulder or somewhere, and equal parts Redneck Arizona. 00:12:21.460 --> 00:12:25.000 And that must have been quite a cultural jump. 00:12:25.940 --> 00:12:27.160 How did you find it? 00:12:27.940 --> 00:12:28.980 Nina Ekholm Fry: Certainly was. 00:12:28.980 --> 00:12:33.005 And I had spent time in the US prior, but only as a visitor. 00:12:33.305 --> 00:12:33.705 You know? 00:12:33.705 --> 00:12:37.625 So you can only get so much of a sense of a place. 00:12:37.625 --> 00:12:41.430 And I had been to the southwest, you know, the similar landscape. 00:12:42.130 --> 00:12:47.165 But something about the desert, which is the opposite, you could say, opposite 00:12:47.225 --> 00:12:50.185 climate of Finland in so many ways. 00:12:50.185 --> 00:12:54.285 Finland's, you know, north and humid, and we're talking desert here. 00:12:54.665 --> 00:12:59.305 It burned into my soul, the desert landscape, into my mind 00:12:59.305 --> 00:13:02.795 and soul in a very profound way. 00:13:03.140 --> 00:13:09.640 I just because I my my feeling was very much I have left this position 00:13:09.940 --> 00:13:15.585 that I had in Finland, which wasn't you know, I did do pros and cons lists, 00:13:15.585 --> 00:13:20.625 but it wasn't, you know, the most terrifying thing necessarily I had done. 00:13:20.625 --> 00:13:21.585 It was like, okay. 00:13:21.585 --> 00:13:26.630 Well, if you are hiring me for this job, then I surely will come kind of thing. 00:13:27.010 --> 00:13:32.210 But but when I so when I arrived, I knew I sort of had told myself, look. 00:13:32.210 --> 00:13:34.160 You're gonna like this place. 00:13:34.160 --> 00:13:40.225 And I had I had visited 1 time after being accepted or accepted 00:13:40.385 --> 00:13:45.185 after being employed, offered a contract, and while I was waiting for 00:13:45.185 --> 00:13:47.025 immigration status to be resolved. 00:13:47.025 --> 00:13:50.705 So I had visited before once before I actually moved there. 00:13:50.705 --> 00:13:54.485 Physically, those 2 suitcases showed up there. 00:13:55.050 --> 00:13:57.130 But and I knew I told myself, look. 00:13:57.130 --> 00:14:00.650 You're gonna like it, you know, because this is where this kinda 00:14:00.650 --> 00:14:04.715 cool job is, and and you know, why why wouldn't you like it? 00:14:04.715 --> 00:14:09.035 And I just arrived into this small town. 00:14:09.035 --> 00:14:09.355 Yes. 00:14:09.355 --> 00:14:10.620 It's north of Phoenix. 00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:12.080 It's pretty small community. 00:14:12.540 --> 00:14:13.600 It's pretty eclectic. 00:14:13.980 --> 00:14:14.220 Mhmm. 00:14:14.220 --> 00:14:15.600 It's specific. 00:14:16.140 --> 00:14:21.945 It has a very almost insular culture to it due to the way that the mountains 00:14:22.085 --> 00:14:24.275 rise because it's a mile high city. 00:14:24.275 --> 00:14:28.355 So you're gonna drive up from Phoenix, you rise about 3000 feet, and you 00:14:28.355 --> 00:14:33.020 end up in this little it's not a mountain town, but it's high desert. 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:33.740 Yeah. 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:37.375 And it feels very place based. 00:14:37.375 --> 00:14:38.755 It feels very contained. 00:14:39.295 --> 00:14:43.215 It was not it was completely different, of course, than my village 00:14:43.215 --> 00:14:49.220 and the city I grew up near, but it was also not an urban metropolis. 00:14:49.520 --> 00:14:50.020 Right. 00:14:51.360 --> 00:14:53.780 It had very strong land connection. 00:14:53.920 --> 00:14:56.000 That's how I felt when I arrived, and I felt at 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:56.500 Rupert Isaacson: home. 00:14:57.255 --> 00:15:04.455 And then what did you you you then began to move towards the work that you're doing 00:15:04.455 --> 00:15:06.155 now while you were there at Prescott. 00:15:07.880 --> 00:15:12.290 You began to organize very interesting events in congresses there. 00:15:12.525 --> 00:15:16.545 Can you just tell us about the work that you did there, and then that'll 00:15:16.685 --> 00:15:19.985 be give us a way to jump into the work you're doing now at Denver? 00:15:20.660 --> 00:15:20.980 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yes. 00:15:20.980 --> 00:15:21.460 Yes. 00:15:21.460 --> 00:15:27.750 So, again, I arrived with a task to sort of solidify what had happened there. 00:15:28.065 --> 00:15:33.285 And I, of course, also arrived with quest to know what is 00:15:33.285 --> 00:15:34.645 happening here in the States. 00:15:34.645 --> 00:15:40.630 I mean, at that time, yes, there were emails and slow Internet browsers, but 00:15:40.630 --> 00:15:46.075 it wasn't like now where you could just get people on the on the phone, you 00:15:46.075 --> 00:15:48.975 know, or or chat or message with people. 00:15:49.275 --> 00:15:55.300 I had some contacts, but my main quest was literally to see what is 00:15:55.300 --> 00:15:59.300 going on here when they were talking about horses, and we're talking about 00:15:59.300 --> 00:16:02.135 therapy and especially psychotherapy. 00:16:02.195 --> 00:16:07.635 So my my early years, I was there for 5 years, were really, 00:16:07.635 --> 00:16:10.020 really focused on networking. 00:16:10.160 --> 00:16:12.660 We're really focused on bringing people together. 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:18.795 As you mentioned, I organized some large large events and, of course, running the 00:16:18.795 --> 00:16:23.940 the concentration within the master's program there for students bringing in 00:16:24.180 --> 00:16:28.970 speakers, and and, you know, I've had you there too for some of our both our 00:16:28.970 --> 00:16:30.910 undergrad and our graduate students. 00:16:31.370 --> 00:16:37.655 So I spent several years basically trying to get to know as many people 00:16:37.655 --> 00:16:44.120 as possible and as much about the context of the United States and equine 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:48.600 interactions and therapies since I had some of that coming from from Europe. 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:51.405 But here, we had a completely new landscape. 00:16:51.405 --> 00:16:56.395 And I could also add, I also spent some earnest time trying to understand what 00:16:56.395 --> 00:17:01.650 these, you know, natural horsemanship dudes in the west were talking about. 00:17:01.650 --> 00:17:05.190 I had some experience, you know, of course, being classically trained, 00:17:05.585 --> 00:17:07.286 classical equitation in Europe. 00:17:07.985 --> 00:17:13.560 But I I gave it a really good shot when they were running horses around and around 00:17:13.560 --> 00:17:15.640 pens, and they were doing stuff like that. 00:17:15.640 --> 00:17:19.720 And I earnestly was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna try to understand what you 00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:24.505 all are talking about, but really found that that a lot of it wasn't 00:17:24.505 --> 00:17:26.745 science aligned or it wasn't for me. 00:17:26.745 --> 00:17:31.746 So I did spend a lot of time in the sort of on the horse side only as well. 00:17:32.446 --> 00:17:35.166 Rupert Isaacson: And what had you been involved in the equine assisted 00:17:35.166 --> 00:17:38.660 work in Finland before you came Yes. 00:17:38.740 --> 00:17:39.460 To the US. 00:17:39.460 --> 00:17:39.780 Okay. 00:17:39.780 --> 00:17:42.580 Tell us about that and and and, yeah, you're the background 00:17:42.580 --> 00:17:43.080 Nina Ekholm Fry: there. 00:17:44.740 --> 00:17:45.060 Yeah. 00:17:45.060 --> 00:17:49.355 Both practically as in providing services and including horses, but 00:17:49.355 --> 00:17:52.155 also toward the end of my time there. 00:17:52.155 --> 00:17:56.430 Again, again, I was then by then into my mid twenties, I had started 00:17:56.430 --> 00:17:58.720 to become nationally involved. 00:17:58.780 --> 00:18:02.705 So I was a vice president of 1 of the national organizations there, and we 00:18:02.705 --> 00:18:06.995 were working on sort of a couple of initiatives meaning that I've started 00:18:06.995 --> 00:18:13.846 to do some of the work that I am doing quite a bit now too, which is not only, 00:18:14.420 --> 00:18:19.000 you know, boots on the ground kind of experiences or practical experiences, 00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:25.525 but also trying to, uh, positively influence things like guidelines or 00:18:25.525 --> 00:18:28.115 or larger systems where possible. 00:18:29.260 --> 00:18:31.900 Rupert Isaacson: So the the work you did when you were providing services 00:18:31.900 --> 00:18:37.140 in Finland, was that sort of classic therapeutic riding or adaptive riding? 00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:40.715 Was that more the equine assisted psychotherapy direction? 00:18:40.935 --> 00:18:42.055 What how are you doing it? 00:18:42.055 --> 00:18:45.095 What was the what was the menu you were offering 00:18:45.095 --> 00:18:45.595 Nina Ekholm Fry: there? 00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:47.140 Yeah. 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:49.340 Not really adaptive riding. 00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:54.495 I actually became an adaptive riding instructor after I came to the US which 00:18:54.495 --> 00:18:58.655 I, you know, made sure I kind of got to understand what they're doing there. 00:18:58.655 --> 00:19:00.335 I was familiar with that area. 00:19:00.335 --> 00:19:04.240 It's called something else in in Finland, but no the inclusion 00:19:04.240 --> 00:19:06.420 of horses in human services. 00:19:06.590 --> 00:19:11.495 So, both, you know, psychotherapy services and also what we call more supportive 00:19:11.875 --> 00:19:13.905 services was what I was doing there. 00:19:13.905 --> 00:19:19.330 So with autistic kids, so families with autistic family members, more so 00:19:19.330 --> 00:19:21.110 what we'd call supportive services. 00:19:21.170 --> 00:19:25.080 It's a little more like what I've also had the opportunity to work with you 00:19:25.080 --> 00:19:30.120 and New Trails about more that kind of thing, but also and separate from that 00:19:30.120 --> 00:19:36.236 with other clientele, you know, use of psychotherapy as the treatment and 00:19:36.236 --> 00:19:38.876 then the including of the horse Right. 00:19:39.116 --> 00:19:40.716 In each path process. 00:19:40.716 --> 00:19:45.080 So so it's a little bit of of of, again, more learning, more supportive 00:19:45.080 --> 00:19:48.090 service as well as health care service. 00:19:48.785 --> 00:19:49.105 Okay. 00:19:49.105 --> 00:19:51.665 Rupert Isaacson: And then you arrive, obviously, in this 00:19:51.665 --> 00:19:53.205 academic role in Prescott. 00:19:54.785 --> 00:19:58.245 Do you start also offering services there? 00:19:59.490 --> 00:20:02.690 And, also, you say you you start getting to know as many 00:20:02.690 --> 00:20:04.470 people in the field as you can. 00:20:04.610 --> 00:20:08.905 What are the main differences that you found between the approaches the 00:20:08.905 --> 00:20:11.145 Equinixis approaches in Europe to yeah. 00:20:11.145 --> 00:20:12.205 What struck you? 00:20:12.745 --> 00:20:13.065 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yeah. 00:20:13.065 --> 00:20:13.565 Yeah. 00:20:13.800 --> 00:20:14.040 No. 00:20:14.040 --> 00:20:18.440 And and and this is a topic that that you and I also know quite a bit about. 00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:22.615 When you come to a new country as an immigrant, takes a while for 00:20:22.615 --> 00:20:27.195 you to get certain permissions to do certain kinds of work. 00:20:27.605 --> 00:20:32.170 So, yes, when I first arrived, I I didn't have the status to allow me 00:20:32.170 --> 00:20:36.810 to do multiple to, you know, work for multiple employers, basically, 00:20:36.810 --> 00:20:38.890 or to even have my own business yet. 00:20:38.890 --> 00:20:39.210 Right. 00:20:39.210 --> 00:20:42.895 That took several years before I was able to. 00:20:42.955 --> 00:20:47.765 And when I was able to, I was then able to provide psychotherapy primarily in 00:20:47.765 --> 00:20:53.675 the residential treatment settings where clients would come for typically longer 00:20:53.675 --> 00:20:59.195 term treatment primarily co occurring trauma and addiction or co occurring 00:20:59.195 --> 00:21:06.890 trauma and there, also in in Arizona. 00:21:06.905 --> 00:21:11.735 But much later on there also in in Arizona, but much later on 00:21:11.795 --> 00:21:15.575 than those initial years due to due to immigration restrictions. 00:21:16.515 --> 00:21:22.980 But the, yes, the differences were in terms of you're asking the differences 00:21:22.980 --> 00:21:26.740 between, you know, how the inclusion of horses would look in Europe at 00:21:26.740 --> 00:21:31.545 that time, which has also changed, you know, a a bunch compared to the states. 00:21:31.545 --> 00:21:37.370 I mean, I knew or I was aware already while living in Europe that there were a 00:21:37.370 --> 00:21:40.030 lot of these so called models and brands. 00:21:40.250 --> 00:21:45.290 So very American, you know, ideas of of like, oh, I'm gonna brand this and 00:21:45.290 --> 00:21:47.135 call this something very specific. 00:21:47.465 --> 00:21:51.485 So I was aware that that was what was happening there. 00:21:51.625 --> 00:21:56.890 And a lot of actually folks in Europe were looking more to the US 00:21:56.890 --> 00:21:58.670 specifically around psychotherapy. 00:21:59.610 --> 00:22:03.825 You know, the use of equine movement in physical therapy and occupational therapy, 00:22:04.145 --> 00:22:09.265 speech therapy really originated in the German speaking parts of of of Europe, 00:22:09.265 --> 00:22:15.710 and that felt very solid as a and also, you know, Finland was an early, early 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:21.135 also forerunner with the first training in 19 89 mostly focused on, again, 00:22:21.135 --> 00:22:24.835 physical therapists and what's called ergotherapists or occupational therapists. 00:22:25.630 --> 00:22:30.530 But the psychotherapy work, surely there was there or there was definitely 00:22:30.670 --> 00:22:34.915 some early stuff happening in the eighties and nineties in in the 00:22:34.915 --> 00:22:39.715 German speaking countries with the inclusion of horses in psychiatry and 00:22:39.715 --> 00:22:41.415 inclusion of horses in psychotherapy. 00:22:42.390 --> 00:22:47.430 But there was definitely the sense that the Americans are doing a lot in this. 00:22:47.430 --> 00:22:49.930 Like, the Americans are really pushing forward. 00:22:50.495 --> 00:22:54.735 So that was, of course, something I was particularly interested in, and it 00:22:54.735 --> 00:23:00.740 was very much more when I was working in in Northern Europe, very much more 00:23:00.740 --> 00:23:04.980 common that a person was a physical therapist, for instance, instead of 00:23:04.980 --> 00:23:11.065 the few psychotherapists around who included horses or or even dogs and 00:23:11.065 --> 00:23:13.725 other animals in their in in their work. 00:23:14.025 --> 00:23:20.300 So coming to the states, it also was a matter of of just very I took a very 00:23:20.300 --> 00:23:25.145 empirical approach to to starting to see, okay, what what are you all doing 00:23:25.145 --> 00:23:27.945 here, and what can I get trained in? 00:23:27.945 --> 00:23:33.385 And I got trained in basically most things that were available at that time and 00:23:33.385 --> 00:23:40.250 really committed to understanding what the thing was and then, you know, sometimes 00:23:40.310 --> 00:23:45.240 arriving to this is not for me or this you know, after getting familiar with a 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:50.605 number of things that were was going on, you know, in the US and really dedicating 00:23:50.745 --> 00:23:52.585 myself to understanding at first. 00:23:52.585 --> 00:23:57.270 I did notice that there was quite a quite a few things that weren't 00:23:57.270 --> 00:24:02.230 for me or didn't seem aligned with health care, specifically health 00:24:02.230 --> 00:24:06.410 care in the way we might talk about, you know, in health insurance 00:24:06.550 --> 00:24:12.305 billable service or using a term like psychotherapy to talk about treatment. 00:24:13.675 --> 00:24:14.155 Yeah. 00:24:14.155 --> 00:24:18.280 So I I made sure I got real familiar at first and also 00:24:18.280 --> 00:24:20.345 kept my relationships you know? 00:24:20.345 --> 00:24:24.905 There's a few people who are doing who who are running programs, and and Yeah. 00:24:25.065 --> 00:24:26.905 We're all have similar interests. 00:24:26.905 --> 00:24:28.445 So we're all, you know, colleagues. 00:24:28.935 --> 00:24:31.840 Some really close friends too for sure. 00:24:31.900 --> 00:24:32.400 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 00:24:32.540 --> 00:24:36.380 What what what of the methods that you got trained in did 00:24:36.380 --> 00:24:38.000 you find really spoke to you? 00:24:39.685 --> 00:24:42.725 Nina Ekholm Fry: You know, I hate to be so biased here, but I ran into 00:24:42.725 --> 00:24:47.145 somebody named Rupert, and he was talking about some horse boy stuff. 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:49.320 And I I just met him. 00:24:49.320 --> 00:24:49.820 Yeah. 00:24:50.280 --> 00:24:50.520 Yeah. 00:24:50.520 --> 00:24:50.760 Yeah. 00:24:50.760 --> 00:24:58.325 . But, honestly, that was learning about so both, of course, the 00:24:58.325 --> 00:25:03.660 inclusion of horses in the horse boy , you know, new trail system here. 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:13.315 But, really, the the fundamentally right approach or appropriate approach 00:25:13.455 --> 00:25:20.980 to autism as a neurotype was honestly what really really got me because we 00:25:20.980 --> 00:25:23.500 weren't talking about horse's stuff. 00:25:23.560 --> 00:25:30.205 Instead, this my experiences is was we're centering an autistic experience. 00:25:30.345 --> 00:25:33.965 We're centering understanding each other as humans here. 00:25:34.025 --> 00:25:34.265 Right. 00:25:34.265 --> 00:25:37.690 Now we're thinking how do we include horses into that? 00:25:37.830 --> 00:25:41.110 And that was very attractive, you know, to me. 00:25:41.110 --> 00:25:44.810 And that was the way that I was thinking about things already. 00:25:45.335 --> 00:25:45.735 Mhmm. 00:25:45.735 --> 00:25:51.435 And and and so some of my, again, in my early empirical investigation, 00:25:51.735 --> 00:25:55.880 spent a lot of time also going back and forth to Texas and and learning at 00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:58.040 that time and and and learning more. 00:25:58.040 --> 00:26:02.635 And that's really what what what what got me, what I thought 00:26:02.635 --> 00:26:04.575 this this makes sense to me. 00:26:05.195 --> 00:26:06.815 Rupert Isaacson: You're you're extremely kind. 00:26:07.850 --> 00:26:14.570 And, obviously, with Horse Boy , we we we try our best to keep it an 00:26:14.570 --> 00:26:17.365 ever ever developing organism. 00:26:17.365 --> 00:26:24.510 We still, obviously, as you know, go for regular continuing education, really 00:26:24.510 --> 00:26:29.520 mentorship from neuroscientists and and indeed from autist autists themselves. 00:26:30.805 --> 00:26:34.885 Apart from horse boy method, did you find some other methods here in the US 00:26:34.885 --> 00:26:39.385 that really spoke to you and said yes, particularly on the psychotherapy end? 00:26:39.445 --> 00:26:42.520 Was there were there some things that really stood out? 00:26:43.940 --> 00:26:44.340 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yeah. 00:26:44.340 --> 00:26:50.865 I think with, honestly, the other trainings, which I either then I took 00:26:50.865 --> 00:26:56.550 and became credentialed or I even hosted workshops, it didn't seem like 00:26:56.550 --> 00:27:01.030 they were using the same conceptual frame that was still sort of in 00:27:01.030 --> 00:27:07.015 infancy in my mind that I've later, you know, sort of really helped bring 00:27:07.015 --> 00:27:08.895 forth in my own work and and in Right. 00:27:09.015 --> 00:27:14.400 Kind of medical national context when the time was right for more clarifications 00:27:14.620 --> 00:27:18.720 around terminology and concepts and things like that just a few years ago here. 00:27:19.100 --> 00:27:25.335 But I didn't find that the really a kind of singular other approach that 00:27:25.795 --> 00:27:30.620 sort of was so clearly anchored in the understanding of, in this case, a 00:27:30.620 --> 00:27:35.825 particular population, not to say that this this your work is inherently tied 00:27:35.825 --> 00:27:40.735 just to 1 kind of person or something like that because it has so many aspects 00:27:40.735 --> 00:27:46.060 to it that are useful for developing minds and people and that kind of thing. 00:27:46.360 --> 00:27:51.595 So it wasn't I I I think it was more like, oh, this approach is an another approach. 00:27:52.165 --> 00:27:56.570 You take parts from that or this other approach was really leaning 00:27:56.570 --> 00:28:01.160 into like, working with teams and business executives, things like that. 00:28:01.160 --> 00:28:02.360 And and I was like, oh, yeah. 00:28:02.360 --> 00:28:06.055 I've done a lot of this experiential learning stuff in the forest of 00:28:06.055 --> 00:28:10.650 Finland here that I can recognize some of these, you know, the the 00:28:10.650 --> 00:28:14.110 same learning ideas, of course, the same experiential learning theory. 00:28:14.330 --> 00:28:16.110 And that makes sense too. 00:28:16.170 --> 00:28:20.960 But they felt more like these are very specific specifically directed things, 00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:26.715 and they weren't necessarily separating the equine interaction from Right. 00:28:27.195 --> 00:28:27.935 It's provided. 00:28:27.995 --> 00:28:34.155 And I think for me, that was always really important or how I, again, a 00:28:34.155 --> 00:28:38.400 little later started really more clearly conceptualizing this in my own work. 00:28:38.860 --> 00:28:42.400 Rupert Isaacson: So now let's go to to the work you're doing now. 00:28:42.540 --> 00:28:45.795 You you you've come out of the University of you spent 5 years there. 00:28:45.795 --> 00:28:49.155 You've gotten to know the equine assisted scene. 00:28:49.155 --> 00:28:51.875 You've you've, as you say, you've you've explored horse boy. 00:28:51.875 --> 00:28:53.910 You've explored some other methodologies. 00:28:54.610 --> 00:28:57.990 You've taken ideas from a number of places. 00:28:58.050 --> 00:29:01.670 Your background, though, still remains, you know, within the psychotherapy end. 00:29:02.005 --> 00:29:09.045 But yet then you end up at Denver University, and you end up at a really I 00:29:09.045 --> 00:29:13.310 would say, it still is, and it certainly was then, but it's it's remained, I 00:29:13.310 --> 00:29:22.635 think, the really cutting edge program, I think, within the USA on exploring what's 00:29:22.635 --> 00:29:27.775 the value of human animal connection. 00:29:29.140 --> 00:29:31.960 So how did you end up at Denver? 00:29:33.060 --> 00:29:35.300 What was on your mind to go there to do? 00:29:35.300 --> 00:29:38.280 And tell us about the work you've developed since you got there. 00:29:39.685 --> 00:29:40.185 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yes. 00:29:41.445 --> 00:29:41.845 Yeah. 00:29:41.845 --> 00:29:47.080 So I I had did not necessarily have a a a clear plan of leaving this this very 00:29:47.080 --> 00:29:49.580 compelling desert community in Arizona. 00:29:49.910 --> 00:29:54.440 I quite you know, by then, I'd gotten myself some a better immigration status. 00:29:54.500 --> 00:29:59.105 I had my horses who who are, you know, some of which are who are 00:29:59.105 --> 00:30:03.285 still alive, and they live now here in 1 state over in Colorado. 00:30:03.345 --> 00:30:03.585 No. 00:30:03.585 --> 00:30:08.760 It was it's actually a a colleague of mine who so graciously said, hey. 00:30:08.820 --> 00:30:12.555 I'd like you to come work at University of Denver. 00:30:12.555 --> 00:30:15.695 I'd like you to come to the Institute for Human Animal Connection. 00:30:15.915 --> 00:30:22.970 I'd like you to lead our equine efforts because the institute had been in existent 00:30:23.430 --> 00:30:28.455 existence for years, but it's sort of just been 1 faculty member and then 00:30:28.455 --> 00:30:30.455 initially a part time staff position. 00:30:30.455 --> 00:30:31.675 It had been kinda small. 00:30:32.215 --> 00:30:38.760 And right around that time, 20 14, 20 15, there was a concerted effort 00:30:38.760 --> 00:30:41.000 to actually build the institute up. 00:30:41.000 --> 00:30:46.035 And there was several of us, including the then director of research who's now 00:30:46.035 --> 00:30:50.625 the current executive director of the institute and myself and, again, some 00:30:50.625 --> 00:30:52.900 other folks started at the same time. 00:30:53.040 --> 00:30:58.350 It was very exciting time because it was possible to not only build on existing 00:30:58.350 --> 00:31:04.015 work that had been going on at a smaller scale at the institute, but now really 00:31:04.015 --> 00:31:09.245 take both the research side as well as the professional development or the sort of 00:31:09.245 --> 00:31:12.120 education side of that institute forward. 00:31:12.900 --> 00:31:17.620 So I got also had the opportunity to shape my role a little bit and wanted 00:31:17.620 --> 00:31:21.975 to make sure that it included both therapeutic human animal interactions 00:31:23.235 --> 00:31:28.460 as well as the experiences of horses in communities, meaning things like 00:31:28.460 --> 00:31:33.180 equine behavior, equine welfare, but really anchored in more of a social 00:31:33.180 --> 00:31:39.005 science lens as opposed to a veterinary medicine lens or or or things like 00:31:39.005 --> 00:31:39.505 Rupert Isaacson: that. 00:31:39.805 --> 00:31:44.215 So when people think about you know, a university beginning to put its attention 00:31:44.355 --> 00:31:48.730 on this kind of thing which I think for a lot of people is still a surprise. 00:31:48.730 --> 00:31:54.895 I think I think a lot of people, even in our field, are still perhaps unaware 00:31:55.275 --> 00:32:00.315 that you have your institute at Denver University, and now there's other academic 00:32:00.315 --> 00:32:01.880 institutions beginning to follow suit. 00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:07.320 I think a lot of us spent so long sort of out in the wilderness that we we 00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:10.600 it it it comes as a bit of a shock to us to think, oh, universities are 00:32:10.600 --> 00:32:13.275 actually interested in what we do. 00:32:13.275 --> 00:32:19.340 But there you are, of course, beginning to to run these well well, it's it's 00:32:19.340 --> 00:32:20.780 for you to tell us what you were doing. 00:32:20.780 --> 00:32:23.660 We we always picture, we layman, we non academics, what 00:32:23.660 --> 00:32:24.780 do they do at universities. 00:32:24.780 --> 00:32:26.300 They either teach or they run research. 00:32:26.300 --> 00:32:26.800 Right? 00:32:28.635 --> 00:32:34.735 What I presume you be with the institute began doing both. 00:32:35.895 --> 00:32:39.515 Tell us about the research and tell us about the t the vocational end. 00:32:40.375 --> 00:32:40.695 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yes. 00:32:40.695 --> 00:32:41.015 Yes. 00:32:41.015 --> 00:32:44.055 So at University of Denver, I'm a a faculty member in the 00:32:44.055 --> 00:32:45.580 Graduate School of Social Work. 00:32:45.580 --> 00:32:48.720 This is also where the institute sits. 00:32:49.100 --> 00:32:53.050 Even though, again I'm not a a social worker by training, this 00:32:53.050 --> 00:32:55.535 is typically a US profession. 00:32:55.595 --> 00:32:55.995 You know? 00:32:55.995 --> 00:32:59.995 When we talk about social work, this this this social work in Europe has 00:32:59.995 --> 00:33:03.600 different flavors, let's say, depending on the country, and it's a different 00:33:03.600 --> 00:33:07.920 kind of it's a different professional area than the core, what's known as 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:10.100 the kind of US social work profession. 00:33:10.285 --> 00:33:14.155 I emphasize this again because you know, our executive director is a 00:33:14.155 --> 00:33:16.505 molecular biologist by training who 00:33:16.585 --> 00:33:18.185 Rupert Isaacson: Tell us who who is your executive 00:33:18.185 --> 00:33:18.685 Nina Ekholm Fry: director? 00:33:19.170 --> 00:33:24.660 Doctor Kevin Morris is his name who you've who you've also met at times. 00:33:24.995 --> 00:33:25.235 Yeah. 00:33:25.235 --> 00:33:25.475 We've 00:33:25.475 --> 00:33:28.355 Rupert Isaacson: had He he's an intriguing intriguing figure. 00:33:28.355 --> 00:33:31.635 Perhaps a little bit further on, you'll give us a bit of background 00:33:31.635 --> 00:33:35.580 on him because I think I think that would be useful for our our listeners. 00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:36.600 But okay. 00:33:36.600 --> 00:33:38.540 So you you you I you're there. 00:33:38.840 --> 00:33:41.740 You're beginning to run studies? 00:33:42.535 --> 00:33:43.755 You're beginning to research 00:33:43.895 --> 00:33:44.615 Nina Ekholm Fry: the field? 00:33:44.615 --> 00:33:44.935 Yes. 00:33:44.935 --> 00:33:49.575 So so, again, at the at the institute, we have a a a research side to it, 00:33:49.575 --> 00:33:54.160 so to speak, where we can process and manage grants and research processes. 00:33:54.860 --> 00:33:59.165 And we also do professional development and education and sort of, like, 00:33:59.405 --> 00:34:01.265 implementation science, basically. 00:34:01.405 --> 00:34:06.605 Like like, it's not just research because research tends to occur in quite 00:34:06.605 --> 00:34:09.970 narrow areas depending on its funding. 00:34:11.340 --> 00:34:16.805 But so our institute, I feel, is very unique also in that we we bring 00:34:16.945 --> 00:34:21.125 research to practice or we we spread the word about what's happening. 00:34:21.585 --> 00:34:27.350 So my roles currently on the on the faculty side within the graduate school I 00:34:27.350 --> 00:34:33.415 lead an area of social work study, which is also very unique called human animal 00:34:33.415 --> 00:34:35.515 environment interactions in social work. 00:34:35.975 --> 00:34:40.695 And the fact that we've taught these courses about the importance and 00:34:40.695 --> 00:34:47.230 impact of human animal interactions at University of Denver since 19 96. 00:34:47.290 --> 00:34:54.845 There was 1 little course, and now, you know, it it's really been DU or University 00:34:54.845 --> 00:35:00.330 of Denver has been a forerunner thanks to people like Philip Tedeschi and others who 00:35:00.330 --> 00:35:05.390 really said, I wanna teach about humans and animals with a social work lens. 00:35:06.195 --> 00:35:10.935 And now I'm in the position where I'm, again, overseeing this year 00:35:11.315 --> 00:35:17.690 specialization for people to formally study this in social work but to 00:35:17.690 --> 00:35:23.095 understand the importance and impact of these relationships also in clinical 00:35:23.095 --> 00:35:28.635 work, but also in a number of settings like, you know, pet ownerships, 00:35:28.855 --> 00:35:34.095 companion animals other health benefits of just being connected to nature. 00:35:35.625 --> 00:35:42.459 That's been a really a gift for University of Denver to be also supporting other 00:35:42.459 --> 00:35:49.574 social work schools in in really daring to talk loudly about, you know, 00:35:49.574 --> 00:35:51.514 human animal environment interactions. 00:35:52.134 --> 00:35:53.254 So that's part of my work. 00:35:53.254 --> 00:35:56.719 And then my other part is at the institute, which I can talk more about 00:35:56.719 --> 00:36:02.189 too, but I wanted to sort of highlight the the unique academic content that's 00:36:02.189 --> 00:36:07.194 also happening that more and more institutions are starting to dare have 00:36:07.194 --> 00:36:09.774 courses on human animal interactions. 00:36:10.474 --> 00:36:12.634 Rupert Isaacson: And so if you're doing that at a social a school of 00:36:12.634 --> 00:36:18.209 social work, does that mean that these are student social workers? 00:36:18.699 --> 00:36:23.084 And, basically, what they're being taught is the value of doing the work they're 00:36:23.084 --> 00:36:28.784 gonna do professionally with, say, therapy dogs, therapy horses, or outside in nature 00:36:29.084 --> 00:36:35.589 to get a better outcome for their clients and encouraging them to go animal based, 00:36:35.589 --> 00:36:37.689 nature based in their own practices. 00:36:37.989 --> 00:36:39.269 Is is is that sort of 00:36:39.269 --> 00:36:39.929 Nina Ekholm Fry: the idea? 00:36:40.524 --> 00:36:40.844 Yes. 00:36:40.844 --> 00:36:41.564 Part of it. 00:36:41.564 --> 00:36:45.244 Because not every social work student so they are social work students. 00:36:45.244 --> 00:36:47.904 I also teach in the graduate school of professional psychology. 00:36:48.044 --> 00:36:51.834 So I teach some of the doctoral students about interventions that 00:36:51.834 --> 00:36:55.614 include animal interactions, and that's more squarely clinical. 00:36:55.994 --> 00:36:56.314 Yeah. 00:36:56.314 --> 00:37:00.739 The social work students, the majority of them honestly are clinically 00:37:00.799 --> 00:37:02.559 focused, and that's pretty typical. 00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:05.539 You know, we have a clinical license for social workers, etcetera. 00:37:05.904 --> 00:37:08.964 But social workers also work on policy levels. 00:37:09.264 --> 00:37:13.409 They also work in what we call meso areas, meaning they might not 00:37:13.409 --> 00:37:15.989 work directly with 1 to 1 service. 00:37:16.369 --> 00:37:19.269 They might prefer to work with systems instead. 00:37:19.329 --> 00:37:23.184 They might prefer to work with policies or promote I see. 00:37:23.344 --> 00:37:27.444 The understanding, yeah, of, again, the impact and importance 00:37:27.584 --> 00:37:28.484 of these relationships. 00:37:29.329 --> 00:37:34.179 If you're seeking a safe place to be because of intimate partner violence, 00:37:34.799 --> 00:37:38.864 you're not gonna go to that shelter if it means you have to leave your 00:37:38.864 --> 00:37:44.119 dog behind in your house or give them up for adoption, a family member. 00:37:44.119 --> 00:37:48.199 You can choose between being not beaten up every day or leave 00:37:48.199 --> 00:37:49.879 your dog there to be beaten up. 00:37:49.879 --> 00:37:53.034 That's not a choice that people, you know, make. 00:37:53.334 --> 00:37:56.234 And but but others may not understand this. 00:37:56.294 --> 00:37:56.534 Mhmm. 00:37:56.534 --> 00:37:59.254 Others may say, oh, of course, you're gonna dump the dog. 00:37:59.254 --> 00:37:59.699 Right? 00:37:59.939 --> 00:38:00.439 Humans. 00:38:00.739 --> 00:38:01.619 Humans first. 00:38:01.619 --> 00:38:06.954 But that's not how the human species works necessarily with the importance importance 00:38:06.954 --> 00:38:08.574 of our interspecies connections. 00:38:08.634 --> 00:38:12.574 And that's really how we live, you know, and have been living. 00:38:13.194 --> 00:38:16.319 So it's it's understanding those kinds of things. 00:38:16.319 --> 00:38:20.579 Oh, why why are we seeing people who are killed by their intimate partners? 00:38:20.989 --> 00:38:24.194 Well, they might have barriers to seeking safety. 00:38:24.814 --> 00:38:28.574 Well, 1 of them might be that we're not understanding the importance 00:38:28.574 --> 00:38:32.354 and impact of their animal relationships completely or fully. 00:38:32.929 --> 00:38:39.009 So those are that's 1 of a a ton of examples that relate to, again, 00:38:39.009 --> 00:38:42.774 these these human animal environment interactions also outside of 00:38:42.774 --> 00:38:47.974 clinical work, but very much so also including animals in nature into 00:38:47.974 --> 00:38:49.839 the therapy process like you said. 00:38:49.999 --> 00:38:50.239 And 00:38:50.239 --> 00:38:52.719 Rupert Isaacson: would you hope that some of these students that then go 00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:57.894 on to have careers in, as you say, in the systems, in the admin, end up 00:38:57.894 --> 00:39:02.074 working in local health authorities or or even national health authorities. 00:39:02.614 --> 00:39:06.839 And then 1 would hope that what they've learned and what they've been taught 00:39:07.799 --> 00:39:13.639 and as a knock on effect that as they become policymakers, they include animal 00:39:13.639 --> 00:39:22.104 assisted stuff in government funded or insurance company funded treatments. 00:39:23.009 --> 00:39:23.969 So looking into 00:39:24.209 --> 00:39:24.709 Yes. 00:39:24.849 --> 00:39:26.529 Nina Ekholm Fry: And yeah. 00:39:26.529 --> 00:39:28.149 And it's really also understanding. 00:39:28.529 --> 00:39:28.849 Right? 00:39:28.849 --> 00:39:33.654 Like, currently, you you can include interactions with dogs and cats, horses, 00:39:33.714 --> 00:39:39.574 guinea pigs, rats in psychotherapy without restriction and getting reimbursed. 00:39:40.169 --> 00:39:40.489 Okay. 00:39:40.489 --> 00:39:45.049 You can't do you can't do things like animal therapy or dog therapy 00:39:45.049 --> 00:39:49.284 or horse therapy because that's not a therapy in the health care system. 00:39:55.924 --> 00:39:56.959 Enhance that. 00:39:57.119 --> 00:40:02.479 And that's a billable service because the animal does not constitute treatment or a 00:40:02.479 --> 00:40:05.379 modality or a strategy or an intervention. 00:40:05.884 --> 00:40:09.404 And this is something that then, you know, these graduate students who 00:40:09.404 --> 00:40:16.489 are really advanced learners in this area, you know, gain knowledge about. 00:40:16.489 --> 00:40:20.109 And then just like you said, some of them may be working clinically, 00:40:20.169 --> 00:40:21.709 but others may work in systems. 00:40:21.984 --> 00:40:26.544 And they may be setting policies for the schools, which happens quite a lot, the 00:40:26.544 --> 00:40:33.799 school district, to promote more animal and nature access in public schools, for 00:40:33.799 --> 00:40:34.299 Rupert Isaacson: instance. 00:40:34.359 --> 00:40:34.839 Okay. 00:40:34.839 --> 00:40:35.339 Okay. 00:40:35.399 --> 00:40:36.839 So you're really paying it forward. 00:40:36.839 --> 00:40:42.214 I mean, you're what you're doing there at DU is really training up the next 00:40:42.214 --> 00:40:50.700 generation of policymakers to place value on nature and animals at the 00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:57.775 institutional slash school slash billable clinical level, and that maybe we might 00:40:57.775 --> 00:41:04.174 be looking at a better picture of that in 15 years because these people have 00:41:04.174 --> 00:41:09.339 now gone on to somewhat senior positions having gone through your program. 00:41:09.720 --> 00:41:10.279 That's great. 00:41:10.279 --> 00:41:10.779 Yeah. 00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:14.359 Nina Ekholm Fry: And and in many ways, all all education and training, we also 00:41:14.359 --> 00:41:19.124 have our postmasters training program, which is not tied to an academic degree. 00:41:19.124 --> 00:41:23.144 It's a postmasters training, meaning you have a master's or doctoral 00:41:23.204 --> 00:41:27.159 already and you you're you're taught to to include interactions 00:41:27.159 --> 00:41:28.939 with horses into psychotherapy. 00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:32.059 That's 1 of our professional development offerings. 00:41:32.464 --> 00:41:36.384 But I think that any any of these trainings, right, that we anytime 00:41:36.384 --> 00:41:41.444 we educate, it is a pay it forward because it is sort of helping others 00:41:42.609 --> 00:41:45.509 gain the knowledge and apply it. 00:41:45.569 --> 00:41:50.949 But you're right that we we do we might really do have a very specific sort of 00:41:51.834 --> 00:41:56.634 intention as well around social good and social justice where we really 00:41:56.634 --> 00:42:10.804 emphasize that people who are graduating, whether from master's and and and 00:42:10.804 --> 00:42:15.864 and teach others, go forth and and learn learn more together with others. 00:42:16.324 --> 00:42:20.289 This is not a question of competitions or who who has the 00:42:20.289 --> 00:42:22.069 best, you know, training program. 00:42:22.129 --> 00:42:27.654 It's it's really about the recognition, like you said, or the importance of 00:42:27.654 --> 00:42:30.054 human animal interactions in a variety of 00:42:30.054 --> 00:42:30.554 Rupert Isaacson: ways. 00:42:31.015 --> 00:42:34.965 Are you looking are you seeing now other universities following 00:42:34.965 --> 00:42:37.545 suit from what DU has pioneered? 00:42:37.845 --> 00:42:41.765 Are are you seeing similar types of programs springing up across the 00:42:41.765 --> 00:42:42.585 Nina Ekholm Fry: US now? 00:42:43.290 --> 00:42:43.450 Yeah. 00:42:43.450 --> 00:42:47.449 I mean, I I spend a fair bit of time chatting with, consulting with, 00:42:47.449 --> 00:42:51.529 you know, with colleagues in in various especially in social work, 00:42:51.529 --> 00:42:53.374 in various social work schools. 00:42:53.674 --> 00:42:57.434 But I also you know, me and my actually former grad student, we 00:42:57.434 --> 00:43:02.970 just had another paper come out just last week, in fact, that maps the 00:43:03.349 --> 00:43:08.809 academic coursework that includes equine interactions in human services. 00:43:09.855 --> 00:43:13.875 Meaning, any courses that are at universities and colleges 00:43:14.335 --> 00:43:18.410 that teach either things like adaptive or therapeutic writing. 00:43:18.410 --> 00:43:19.210 That's the same thing. 00:43:19.210 --> 00:43:19.530 You know? 00:43:19.530 --> 00:43:23.150 That's more of a writing school course industry activity. 00:43:24.495 --> 00:43:28.755 But there's quite a lot of undergraduate institutions that have coursework 00:43:29.135 --> 00:43:32.650 specific that students can take, especially within equine, you 00:43:32.650 --> 00:43:34.430 know, science or equine studies. 00:43:35.049 --> 00:43:40.650 And it includes things like learning services, so education, that kind of thing 00:43:40.650 --> 00:43:44.865 where people teach a course how to include the horse and, of course, in therapy, 00:43:44.865 --> 00:43:48.725 whether that's psychotherapy whether that's occupational or physical or speech 00:43:48.725 --> 00:43:53.280 therapy, and also which institutions have survey or overview courses. 00:43:53.980 --> 00:43:58.930 So we just the this study just came out, like I said, last week, mapping 00:43:59.525 --> 00:44:03.925 the this, and we did a comparison because we did a replication of our 00:44:03.925 --> 00:44:05.865 study that came out 5 years ago. 00:44:06.085 --> 00:44:12.650 And we saw an increase in courses, an increase in institutions offering 00:44:12.709 --> 00:44:15.549 these coursework institute you know, increase in departments. 00:44:15.844 --> 00:44:21.474 So there's definitely, not just in my own personal kind of perception, but 00:44:21.474 --> 00:44:27.229 also, you know, using data and increase in interest in academic institutions 00:44:27.369 --> 00:44:28.649 when it comes to these things. 00:44:28.649 --> 00:44:29.529 This is the way of the 00:44:29.529 --> 00:44:30.029 Rupert Isaacson: future. 00:44:30.204 --> 00:44:33.964 Well, that's wonderful because, I mean, that can only mean that, yeah, 00:44:33.964 --> 00:44:37.984 professionals of the future are gonna come out of these programs. 00:44:38.119 --> 00:44:41.239 And as you say, that's that's got to be a tide that will 00:44:41.239 --> 00:44:44.099 lift all boats a much needed 1. 00:44:45.839 --> 00:44:50.914 You you are now also working outside of DU. 00:44:50.914 --> 00:44:56.959 I know that you've got you know, you you you are very influential 00:44:57.179 --> 00:45:01.389 and active in the sort of wider world of equine assisted stuff. 00:45:01.849 --> 00:45:03.209 You're sitting on boards. 00:45:03.209 --> 00:45:10.224 You're you're helping to get the field sort of moving forward and evolving. 00:45:11.084 --> 00:45:15.164 Which which boards and so on are you currently sitting on, and which 00:45:15.164 --> 00:45:20.489 organizations are you would you like us to know about that are doing work that 00:45:20.489 --> 00:45:22.509 you feel we should all be aware of? 00:45:24.409 --> 00:45:24.889 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yes. 00:45:24.889 --> 00:45:25.369 Yes. 00:45:25.369 --> 00:45:30.464 So currently I sit on the American Hippotherapy Association board. 00:45:30.524 --> 00:45:35.539 This is an organization that supports licensed physical therapists, 00:45:35.539 --> 00:45:39.619 occupational therapists, and speech language pathologists in the use of 00:45:39.619 --> 00:45:42.199 equine movement as a therapy tool. 00:45:42.574 --> 00:45:47.294 And not the horse, but the equine movement in health care in the 00:45:47.294 --> 00:45:52.369 US on in these professions is described as a therapy tool, the 00:45:52.369 --> 00:45:53.909 movement that the horse provides. 00:45:54.559 --> 00:45:55.920 So I sit on this board. 00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:58.324 This is actually my sixth and final year. 00:45:58.644 --> 00:46:02.964 I've I've served on this board for quite a while, sometimes as the only mental health 00:46:02.964 --> 00:46:07.734 professional amongst my colleagues and it's been a a really rewarding experience. 00:46:08.579 --> 00:46:12.199 I also currently, I'm trying to think of larger larger things. 00:46:12.289 --> 00:46:17.674 I sit on an advisory board for the state of Massachusetts that I'm really 00:46:17.844 --> 00:46:22.579 excited about because it's about promoting green care, and it's about 00:46:22.799 --> 00:46:28.939 allocating funds to providers in the state who are serving adolescents and 00:46:28.939 --> 00:46:33.644 young adults who have some sort of connection to substance use challenges. 00:46:34.184 --> 00:46:40.519 But it's finding ways of engaging people with green arenas or green 00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:45.369 spaces in in in their service provision, which is typically psychotherapy, 00:46:45.509 --> 00:46:49.574 but there's also other ways that these this population can be served 00:46:49.574 --> 00:46:52.634 under these state monies that exist. 00:46:52.694 --> 00:46:58.899 So the advisory board role is to allocate the money and also to advise, 00:46:58.899 --> 00:47:04.524 you know, the the the recipients of the money the grantees in that state. 00:47:04.524 --> 00:47:08.624 So those are a couple of of larger things that happened to not be specifically 00:47:08.764 --> 00:47:12.319 about equine interaction, but I also, you know, work with other other 00:47:12.319 --> 00:47:15.139 contexts or other other things as well. 00:47:15.839 --> 00:47:17.919 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think you made a very good point earlier, which 00:47:17.919 --> 00:47:21.774 is that the interaction with horses and animals in general is part of 00:47:21.774 --> 00:47:23.934 the general interaction with nature. 00:47:23.934 --> 00:47:24.214 Yes. 00:47:24.214 --> 00:47:29.794 1 1 1 can't you know, 1 tends the nature tends to get used to mean interactions 00:47:29.854 --> 00:47:35.119 with natural landscapes as something rather separate from animals, but I'm a 00:47:35.119 --> 00:47:37.859 great believer that it's all the same. 00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:42.064 And to separate 1 from the other is asinine but it's 00:47:42.064 --> 00:47:43.424 understandable why people do it. 00:47:43.424 --> 00:47:48.624 So it it's exciting to me that you are making a point of drawing that 00:47:48.624 --> 00:47:53.439 connection on on on an academic and an organizational level. 00:47:54.809 --> 00:47:58.414 What what draws you to what drew you to the Hippotherapy 00:47:58.714 --> 00:47:59.834 Association in particular? 00:47:59.834 --> 00:48:04.494 What was what is it about that that approach that speaks to you? 00:48:05.809 --> 00:48:06.289 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yeah. 00:48:06.289 --> 00:48:09.989 I would and I also wanna make sure I I mentioned a couple of organizations 00:48:10.209 --> 00:48:14.209 that I think there's been some really exciting or interesting stuff happening 00:48:14.209 --> 00:48:15.884 with human horse interactions. 00:48:16.264 --> 00:48:20.984 But, yeah, the American Hippotherapy Association or Again, the word 00:48:20.984 --> 00:48:22.684 hypotherapist is a little tricky. 00:48:22.929 --> 00:48:24.929 You can just say equine movement. 00:48:24.929 --> 00:48:26.309 It means the same thing. 00:48:26.609 --> 00:48:31.834 But I was originally asked to join that board because of my 00:48:31.834 --> 00:48:33.514 work on the mental health side. 00:48:33.514 --> 00:48:33.914 Yeah. 00:48:33.914 --> 00:48:37.694 So this organization has been a long standing organization, 00:48:37.994 --> 00:48:42.619 very typically organized, you know, for licensed providers. 00:48:43.829 --> 00:48:49.304 So I I've just enjoyed the exchange with my colleagues since I'd at at the time, 00:48:49.304 --> 00:48:54.444 I was still serving as the, I think, the the chair of a credentialing board 00:48:54.699 --> 00:48:58.239 called the CBEIP or the certification board for equine interaction 00:48:58.299 --> 00:49:02.554 professionals, which credential mental health professionals voluntarily. 00:49:02.614 --> 00:49:04.874 You know, this is a voluntary national thing. 00:49:05.124 --> 00:49:07.704 Mental health professionals as well as learning professionals. 00:49:08.689 --> 00:49:12.529 And I think it was through that connection as well because there's a separate 00:49:12.529 --> 00:49:18.149 credentialing board, similar 1 for OTs and PTs, occupational and physical therapists. 00:49:18.934 --> 00:49:23.335 So I think it was I was asked to join or or, you know, to talk more. 00:49:23.335 --> 00:49:25.095 What's happening on the mental health side? 00:49:25.095 --> 00:49:26.669 What's what's going on there? 00:49:26.669 --> 00:49:27.189 Because Mhmm. 00:49:27.389 --> 00:49:32.994 Unfortunately, there's not there's not a singular organization similar to that 00:49:32.994 --> 00:49:38.855 exists for those who provide psychotherapy and who are licensed or licensable, 00:49:39.849 --> 00:49:44.269 which is a very specific way of looking at, you know, therapy and treatment. 00:49:44.729 --> 00:49:45.129 Yeah. 00:49:45.129 --> 00:49:49.174 So that's how I that's how I ended up there, and it's been 6 6 00:49:49.174 --> 00:49:51.594 short years in a major pandemic. 00:49:51.734 --> 00:49:56.934 And I know it's been it's been a lovely, lovely time, and it's really also made 00:49:56.934 --> 00:50:02.589 me really connected to my colleagues who have different professions than me 00:50:02.589 --> 00:50:04.879 but are still health care providers. 00:50:06.294 --> 00:50:06.794 So 00:50:07.015 --> 00:50:07.515 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 00:50:07.654 --> 00:50:07.894 Okay. 00:50:07.894 --> 00:50:08.934 But I want Yeah. 00:50:08.934 --> 00:50:12.694 So you mentioned that you wanted to draw our attention to a couple of other things. 00:50:12.694 --> 00:50:13.194 Okay? 00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:13.719 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yes. 00:50:13.719 --> 00:50:17.259 Since you since you mentioned this, you mentioned in the very beginning 00:50:17.259 --> 00:50:21.554 HETI, horses in education therapy international, and I'd just a couple of 00:50:21.554 --> 00:50:27.254 years ago finished tenure as a journal editor for them that I was for 10 years. 00:50:28.369 --> 00:50:32.129 And so they've been a and I'm, you know, still connected to them. 00:50:32.129 --> 00:50:38.655 They're sort of the international horse specific organization for for, 00:50:38.655 --> 00:50:40.595 again, horses in therapy and education. 00:50:42.609 --> 00:50:48.929 A similar organization, but for sort of all human animal interactions is called 00:50:48.929 --> 00:50:53.864 I Ohio, the International Association for Human Animal Interaction Organizations. 00:50:55.124 --> 00:51:00.989 And IOHIO is I've been connected with them for years too, but I wanted to highlight 00:51:01.049 --> 00:51:06.534 that there was a really good equine wealth fair and training and handling guidelines 00:51:07.154 --> 00:51:14.029 that came out of I Ohio and are freely available you know, for people to to find. 00:51:14.439 --> 00:51:18.519 I had a pleasure to be part of it, the international work group that 00:51:18.519 --> 00:51:22.484 created those guidelines and a couple of other things related to horses. 00:51:22.624 --> 00:51:28.864 But I think if I look back at the last few years of, you know, doing this kind 00:51:28.864 --> 00:51:33.549 of especially international work, which is very difficult to do because we are 00:51:33.549 --> 00:51:39.104 now talking about different countries, different cultures, different ways of 00:51:39.104 --> 00:51:42.225 thinking that don't have to be the same. 00:51:42.225 --> 00:51:42.804 You know? 00:51:43.265 --> 00:51:49.474 But those equine guidelines, I'm really, really proud of them how they turned 00:51:49.474 --> 00:51:54.135 out and, you know, the group that came together and their contribution 00:51:54.754 --> 00:51:59.014 overall when we think about horses in, you know, various human services 00:52:00.009 --> 00:52:02.969 including adapt you know, and think about adaptive or therapeutic riding, 00:52:02.969 --> 00:52:10.084 these guidelines were meant to be applicable for all these various areas. 00:52:10.145 --> 00:52:13.605 And I and I and I thought that that was such neat work. 00:52:13.774 --> 00:52:17.249 So I wanted to highlight that as as, you know, another reason for that. 00:52:17.409 --> 00:52:18.769 Rupert Isaacson: Specific about those guidelines. 00:52:18.769 --> 00:52:21.109 What so tell us about them in a bit more detail. 00:52:21.409 --> 00:52:22.469 What do they say? 00:52:23.264 --> 00:52:23.504 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yeah. 00:52:23.504 --> 00:52:30.144 So they their guidelines for there's sort of 2 areas called care and welfare, and 00:52:30.144 --> 00:52:32.004 the other area is training and handling. 00:52:32.359 --> 00:52:32.679 Okay. 00:52:32.679 --> 00:52:39.559 And what I really appreciated about I Ohio's approach specifically is that 00:52:39.559 --> 00:52:43.524 there's quite a lot of these welfare guidelines or ethics guidelines. 00:52:43.664 --> 00:52:45.684 They can be quite aspirational. 00:52:46.304 --> 00:52:48.164 They can be quite thin. 00:52:48.449 --> 00:52:52.689 There might be a couple of sentences, you know, do no harm and, you know, 00:52:52.689 --> 00:52:56.469 let's be good to horses or something like that, but they don't necessarily 00:52:59.574 --> 00:53:01.334 provide more detailed guidance. 00:53:01.334 --> 00:53:04.189 It just depends on how a problem is can conceptualize. 00:53:04.509 --> 00:53:06.769 Sometimes we want more bigger principles. 00:53:06.909 --> 00:53:07.409 Right? 00:53:07.549 --> 00:53:17.604 But this the the organization supported the direction of our work group to take 00:53:17.604 --> 00:53:23.724 a braver stance to be clearer and more detailed, which is, again, difficult 00:53:23.944 --> 00:53:30.629 internationally about that we, yeah, that we need to use science based 00:53:30.629 --> 00:53:33.349 approaches of understanding horses. 00:53:33.349 --> 00:53:37.724 We need to think further than our own nose, as we say in Swedish, meaning, you 00:53:37.724 --> 00:53:42.284 know, sometimes if we stop thinking, we haven't gotten very far, barely off of our 00:53:42.284 --> 00:53:47.049 own face here and not even thinking about the welfare of horses, another species. 00:53:47.749 --> 00:53:52.694 So the the guidelines are quite they're detailed. 00:53:53.074 --> 00:53:59.174 They're clear in their recognition of horses as also vulnerable 00:53:59.314 --> 00:54:04.469 participants in these services, and they give, you know, clear guidance. 00:54:04.469 --> 00:54:04.709 Look. 00:54:04.709 --> 00:54:06.089 Horses need to have fiber. 00:54:06.309 --> 00:54:07.929 They need to be with other horses. 00:54:08.309 --> 00:54:11.894 They can't just stand inside in extreme confinement all day, 00:54:11.894 --> 00:54:13.434 and we just call that good. 00:54:13.494 --> 00:54:13.814 Yeah. 00:54:13.864 --> 00:54:18.249 So those are some of the the the the spirit of the guidelines 00:54:18.249 --> 00:54:19.769 really push things forward. 00:54:19.769 --> 00:54:23.069 And I even have been asked to give a talk at a at a conference. 00:54:23.129 --> 00:54:25.144 I gave this was it last year? 00:54:25.144 --> 00:54:25.384 No. 00:54:25.384 --> 00:54:26.364 Still this year. 00:54:26.584 --> 00:54:29.624 Even about the development of the guidelines because it was 00:54:29.624 --> 00:54:32.799 so unusual to be able to move. 00:54:33.019 --> 00:54:35.419 Maybe they're a couple of steps ahead, but I don't mind. 00:54:35.419 --> 00:54:35.739 You know? 00:54:35.739 --> 00:54:36.799 We'll catch up. 00:54:36.939 --> 00:54:37.099 You 00:54:37.099 --> 00:54:37.599 Rupert Isaacson: know? 00:54:37.899 --> 00:54:40.299 Do you have you found that those guidelines have been 00:54:40.299 --> 00:54:41.599 instituted and followed? 00:54:42.924 --> 00:54:46.304 Have you been able to trace that in certain areas? 00:54:47.244 --> 00:54:47.484 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yeah. 00:54:47.484 --> 00:54:51.369 I mean, not formally because there's not a mechanism to say, like, okay. 00:54:51.369 --> 00:54:52.649 This country does this. 00:54:52.649 --> 00:54:56.999 But I've had colleagues translate them into different languages, and 00:54:56.999 --> 00:55:00.084 some have asked me to eye through them to see if they retain, you 00:55:00.084 --> 00:55:01.764 know, their original thought. 00:55:01.764 --> 00:55:06.664 But, again, English is my third language, so just we're all just trying here. 00:55:07.559 --> 00:55:11.659 And I've definitely had people contact me to ask a clarifying 00:55:11.719 --> 00:55:15.894 question or, you know, like, they're they're not just sitting somewhere. 00:55:16.034 --> 00:55:16.114 So 00:55:16.114 --> 00:55:18.514 Rupert Isaacson: people appear to be reacting to them. 00:55:18.514 --> 00:55:19.014 Yeah. 00:55:19.714 --> 00:55:23.414 Because, yeah, I I as you know, we we work internationally with horse sport. 00:55:23.414 --> 00:55:27.334 And when I'm going into new countries, sometimes it's like, 00:55:27.334 --> 00:55:28.794 it's gonna be tricky here. 00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:29.279 Yeah. 00:55:29.329 --> 00:55:34.469 The level of horse care is not what we'd wanna see. 00:55:34.929 --> 00:55:35.169 Yeah. 00:55:35.169 --> 00:55:37.349 And then the question is always, but could it get there? 00:55:38.824 --> 00:55:42.344 And, you know, if you're if you're 1 organization working alone, the 00:55:42.344 --> 00:55:46.044 answer is, well, maybe, but it it would be down to an individual 00:55:46.104 --> 00:55:50.529 stable deciding to up up its game. 00:55:51.899 --> 00:55:56.504 But I what I really like about what you're doing with I Ohio is it 00:55:56.504 --> 00:56:02.559 encourages a bit more of a systematic and institutional change and perhaps 00:56:02.559 --> 00:56:07.600 some of the equine assisted national bodies also beginning to look at this 00:56:07.600 --> 00:56:09.620 more and have that trickle down effect. 00:56:10.214 --> 00:56:12.694 Because it's true that, you know, when we're in the US or when we're in 00:56:12.694 --> 00:56:17.174 Europe, we often, to some degree, take for granted the good horse welfare. 00:56:17.174 --> 00:56:21.479 But even there, we can get some nasty surprises sometimes. 00:56:22.929 --> 00:56:26.514 But, yeah when you go outside, it it it's anybody's guess. 00:56:26.914 --> 00:56:30.034 You know, it it it's that thing of of particularly when 1 goes to countries 00:56:30.034 --> 00:56:36.279 where the horse is not necessarily part of the traditional culture. 00:56:36.279 --> 00:56:38.139 That it's something that may have been brought in. 00:56:40.070 --> 00:56:45.124 So with with the work that you're doing academically, let's bring 00:56:45.124 --> 00:56:49.685 it back to the university at DU, where are you hoping to take it? 00:56:49.685 --> 00:56:50.744 What's your what's your ambition? 00:56:50.744 --> 00:56:52.809 What are you what what are your plans? 00:56:54.789 --> 00:56:55.269 Yeah. 00:56:55.269 --> 00:56:55.429 I 00:56:55.429 --> 00:57:00.334 Nina Ekholm Fry: mean, I feel so fortunate that I'm I'm where I 00:57:00.334 --> 00:57:06.819 wanna be in terms of the space to do the work that's of interest to 00:57:06.819 --> 00:57:10.129 me the ability to just think, okay. 00:57:10.129 --> 00:57:11.649 What what do I wanna do? 00:57:11.649 --> 00:57:14.154 Do we wanna do more big events? 00:57:14.214 --> 00:57:16.934 Is that really where we wanna, you know, sit? 00:57:16.934 --> 00:57:20.375 Does another organization do that better or as well? 00:57:20.375 --> 00:57:23.499 And this is what we've found, for instance, in our collaboration with 00:57:23.499 --> 00:57:28.064 Green Chimneys in New York and that we're we're now, you know, collaborating 00:57:28.064 --> 00:57:32.004 on big practitioner conference events. 00:57:32.224 --> 00:57:32.724 Mhmm. 00:57:33.744 --> 00:57:39.129 And, you know, so for me, my the trajectory right now in the leadership 00:57:39.349 --> 00:57:45.914 team at the institute is really about where can we and I be most effective. 00:57:46.724 --> 00:57:51.689 We just launched a new equine behavior course, which is completely online, 00:57:51.749 --> 00:57:55.429 you know, with videos and things like that to just see, like, where 00:57:55.429 --> 00:57:57.529 are people accessing information? 00:57:58.149 --> 00:58:02.855 How can I, you know, work, which is my internal drive, you know, for a more just 00:58:02.855 --> 00:58:09.149 world, for people, for horses, for, again, people with different identities that 00:58:09.149 --> 00:58:14.609 might disadvantage it them in the eyes of others, you know, like disabilities 00:58:14.934 --> 00:58:19.494 or being neurodivergent or being a woman or, you know, these things that 00:58:19.494 --> 00:58:21.594 are categorical instead of individual? 00:58:23.559 --> 00:58:28.599 You know, I I I think then a lot, like I said, right now, because I have some 00:58:28.599 --> 00:58:34.084 some ability to make things happen more and more without having to lift the whole 00:58:34.084 --> 00:58:39.204 thing myself, you know, which which is not unusual in early early career, of course. 00:58:39.204 --> 00:58:44.449 But but to really think, where can we and I be most effective? 00:58:44.449 --> 00:58:49.109 Where can we make the most impact with these messages again about 00:58:49.169 --> 00:58:51.029 about justness and about equity? 00:58:51.244 --> 00:58:51.964 Rupert Isaacson: And where is that? 00:58:51.964 --> 00:58:54.864 Where where I where do you feel you can make the most impact 00:58:55.244 --> 00:58:57.025 in the in the next short term? 00:58:57.484 --> 00:58:57.964 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yeah. 00:58:57.964 --> 00:59:03.389 So far, of course, it is a lot of people access things more easily online. 00:59:03.689 --> 00:59:04.189 Okay. 00:59:04.249 --> 00:59:10.074 So, you know, being able to offer offer access to our, you know, 00:59:10.074 --> 00:59:12.494 research, access to learning. 00:59:12.954 --> 00:59:17.534 But at the same time, interestingly enough, the postmasters program that I 00:59:17.719 --> 00:59:24.359 lead, we require 3 in person trainings in a or, like, it it's a limited 00:59:24.359 --> 00:59:26.439 residency 10 month training program. 00:59:26.439 --> 00:59:28.264 It's an advanced program. 00:59:28.264 --> 00:59:29.004 It's long. 00:59:29.224 --> 00:59:34.424 It's not and, you know, that perhaps sells faster, let's say, if you're 00:59:34.424 --> 00:59:36.524 doing a shorter thing over a weekend. 00:59:37.529 --> 00:59:43.609 But here, instead of reducing the in person training, we we are we are staying 00:59:43.609 --> 00:59:50.914 with 3, 4 day trainings across 10 months, which is quite a lot of in person activity 00:59:50.914 --> 00:59:55.549 and might be, again, more profitable, let's say, to run it differently. 00:59:56.249 --> 01:00:00.989 But there, I'm finding that the impact, the the return on investment 01:00:01.209 --> 01:00:07.204 for the participants is so so much higher when they are actually training 01:00:07.264 --> 01:00:10.004 hands on in a very defined culture. 01:00:10.144 --> 01:00:14.724 So it's not a drop in drop out, which also increases access, 01:00:15.264 --> 01:00:16.899 but I'm sort of modeling that. 01:00:16.899 --> 01:00:21.219 You know, I'm thinking both about how does this look when it is more online 01:00:21.219 --> 01:00:24.739 or accessible, but also how does it look when you're really doing a very 01:00:24.739 --> 01:00:29.454 specifically kind of specific culture of learning in advanced training. 01:00:29.994 --> 01:00:33.769 And we've really, you know, found great success with the postmasters 01:00:33.909 --> 01:00:38.209 program to the point where we're full, you know, we're full constantly. 01:00:38.724 --> 01:00:39.224 Rupert Isaacson: Wow. 01:00:39.924 --> 01:00:42.924 And in terms of and not. 01:00:43.144 --> 01:00:43.644 Sorry. 01:00:43.704 --> 01:00:44.204 Ohio. 01:00:44.749 --> 01:00:48.299 I was mixing it up with the Lusitano and Spanish shorts I 01:00:48.299 --> 01:00:50.379 I that I'd like to show for. 01:00:50.379 --> 01:00:57.484 I was like, Ohio and and Hetty, where where are you hopeful that 01:00:57.484 --> 01:01:02.309 the work with these international equine assisted bodies is going? 01:01:02.309 --> 01:01:03.689 What would you like to see? 01:01:06.054 --> 01:01:08.614 Nina Ekholm Fry: Again, international work is so tricky. 01:01:08.614 --> 01:01:12.854 I was just supporting my colleagues at HETI about this about another 01:01:12.854 --> 01:01:17.389 international project that I'm that I'm not a part of, but I was lending lending 01:01:17.389 --> 01:01:20.479 my input when when invited to do so. 01:01:20.649 --> 01:01:27.404 And I think that the movements internationally, there's a balance 01:01:27.463 --> 01:01:32.759 between this idea that there's just 1 right way that I, you know, I can 01:01:32.759 --> 01:01:38.278 work more intensively with that within a specific culture or in this case 01:01:38.278 --> 01:01:40.354 within a specific health care system. 01:01:40.654 --> 01:01:45.614 I know how the US health care system works, and I know how this how 01:01:45.614 --> 01:01:47.794 how to best go forward with that. 01:01:47.889 --> 01:01:53.324 So there in those context, I'm very much you know, able to be very specific, which 01:01:53.324 --> 01:01:57.744 an international organization might not be, not with those kinds of details. 01:01:58.124 --> 01:02:03.309 But what I'd like to see internationally when where you can't really advise people 01:02:03.309 --> 01:02:08.029 within their own health care systems, you have to know how that how it works 01:02:08.029 --> 01:02:23.039 and and how what words are being used and how to what's acceptable welfare. 01:02:23.579 --> 01:02:25.679 Like, what is acceptable here? 01:02:25.819 --> 01:02:30.974 Because it becomes a social license to operate more so than actual 01:02:31.434 --> 01:02:35.674 governmental licenses and things like that in most cases, especially in 01:02:35.674 --> 01:02:39.089 the US, where it's more about, hey. 01:02:39.089 --> 01:02:41.009 This is how we're doing this thing. 01:02:41.009 --> 01:02:42.709 Do you wanna be part of this? 01:02:42.849 --> 01:02:44.388 This is how we're modeling. 01:02:44.449 --> 01:02:45.908 This is how we appear. 01:02:45.969 --> 01:02:51.844 This is how, you know, as a group, as an area what we accept and we don't accept. 01:02:52.064 --> 01:02:55.449 And I feel like we're getting closer to things like not 01:02:55.449 --> 01:03:00.429 accepting 24 hour confinement, extreme confinement, specifically. 01:03:01.049 --> 01:03:06.194 And then, you know, 1 hour you get to do a therapy session with if you're a 01:03:06.194 --> 01:03:10.354 horse, you know, you get to come out of this stall and do this 1 thing, 01:03:10.354 --> 01:03:12.329 and then you get to call back in. 01:03:12.329 --> 01:03:17.469 I think it's it's the idea isn't to create barriers for access. 01:03:17.849 --> 01:03:24.184 The idea is to remove the the the physical structure in a lot of cases, but to 01:03:24.184 --> 01:03:33.049 rethink the design and what's allowable for horses and and what we accept for 01:03:33.049 --> 01:03:37.209 horses because it doesn't necessarily mean we have to have bigger places outside 01:03:37.209 --> 01:03:39.629 of the city and only some access them. 01:03:39.894 --> 01:03:42.873 Sometimes it means we just have to redesign and rethink 01:03:43.494 --> 01:03:45.434 what we already have here. 01:03:46.134 --> 01:03:46.454 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:03:46.454 --> 01:03:47.174 I I agree. 01:03:47.174 --> 01:03:48.074 It's very interesting. 01:03:48.134 --> 01:03:53.644 The the project in Dublin, central Dublin child vision, which, as you may know, is 01:03:54.024 --> 01:03:58.039 a school for the visually impaired, but it's right in the middle of the city. 01:03:58.039 --> 01:04:01.579 And when it started, it has an equine program, and we've been 01:04:01.579 --> 01:04:03.594 involved there for some years. 01:04:03.734 --> 01:04:07.414 And when we first became involved there, they had quite a lot of 01:04:07.414 --> 01:04:09.624 land and then it all got sold. 01:04:09.868 --> 01:04:17.623 And they're down to the stable yard, an arena, 1 very, very small turnout paddock, 01:04:17.623 --> 01:04:22.663 and a rugby field that they have to share with the local school with around which 01:04:22.663 --> 01:04:27.989 they have a sensory trail and then the be you know, a bit of another trail. 01:04:28.369 --> 01:04:33.383 And the people who are running the equine program there, Terry Brosnan, 01:04:33.443 --> 01:04:38.743 who was a guest on on on this podcast, and Lucy Dillon, who I hope to get on. 01:04:38.963 --> 01:04:44.368 They've been incredibly inventive about how to make sure that the horses get 01:04:44.368 --> 01:04:49.623 their outside time, get their crazy time being free jumped as in groups 01:04:49.703 --> 01:04:55.503 in the arena, in herds that they get to go out and be hand walked and hand 01:04:55.503 --> 01:05:00.028 grazed and that they built this in as part of the therapy so that they're 01:05:00.028 --> 01:05:04.188 not having a conflict of time between, well, I've got to see all the serve all 01:05:04.188 --> 01:05:08.323 these clients, but how am I gonna get time to train or or serve the horses? 01:05:08.323 --> 01:05:11.283 But it's it's built into the client time. 01:05:11.283 --> 01:05:16.998 And then, of course, they're rotated out of the city every week or 2 as 01:05:16.998 --> 01:05:20.378 well, so they're just allowed to go into a field and just live out. 01:05:21.763 --> 01:05:24.823 And they've been very proactive about this. 01:05:25.313 --> 01:05:26.273 But as you yeah. 01:05:26.273 --> 01:05:28.453 As you know, it's it's it's not always the case. 01:05:28.593 --> 01:05:38.228 Well, what are you what are you the most excited about in terms of because you get 01:05:38.228 --> 01:05:40.353 to look at a lot of different programs. 01:05:40.813 --> 01:05:43.613 What are you excited about in the sort of general way the 01:05:43.613 --> 01:05:45.214 equine assisted world is going? 01:05:45.214 --> 01:05:48.173 And are there some programs out there that you feel that we should be aware 01:05:48.173 --> 01:05:52.578 of that are more recent that we feel you feel we should be taking a look at? 01:05:53.278 --> 01:05:53.598 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yeah. 01:05:53.598 --> 01:05:58.073 And I can mention having worked with Child Wish Vision a bit too and and 01:05:58.073 --> 01:06:00.733 knowing Terry Brosnan really well. 01:06:00.793 --> 01:06:01.113 Yeah. 01:06:01.113 --> 01:06:05.738 So I've been aware of what you all are doing, of course there that it's 01:06:06.138 --> 01:06:11.318 I I just wanna highlight them also as an example of very restricted, 01:06:11.458 --> 01:06:14.123 like you said, like, space Yeah. 01:06:14.284 --> 01:06:20.063 And serving folks in a very central location and really, really 01:06:20.429 --> 01:06:24.688 feeling out that balance of, you know, is this is this sufficient? 01:06:24.909 --> 01:06:26.349 Can we do it this way? 01:06:26.349 --> 01:06:28.828 Should we do it this way with what we have given the the 01:06:28.828 --> 01:06:30.128 changes that they experienced? 01:06:30.748 --> 01:06:37.233 But the I think the the key thing that some folks lack is the right attitude. 01:06:38.013 --> 01:06:42.894 And ChildVision has that right attitude, meaning they are willing 01:06:42.894 --> 01:06:47.933 to examine every part of their equine living environment and their 01:06:47.933 --> 01:06:50.894 prostheses and then try to see, okay. 01:06:50.894 --> 01:06:56.868 We're gonna do this to the max here with what we have and then, you know, assess 01:06:57.008 --> 01:06:59.908 that in a really sort of honest way. 01:07:00.603 --> 01:07:04.363 And that quality I think when I think about sort of programs and people 01:07:04.363 --> 01:07:08.748 and things like that, I think mostly about when I encounter that quality. 01:07:08.748 --> 01:07:14.149 And and I I consult for a foundation here in Southern Colorado called 01:07:14.149 --> 01:07:17.608 Flying Horse Foundation, and they're very similar like that. 01:07:17.988 --> 01:07:22.273 You know, the attitude is there, meaning we can solve the 01:07:22.273 --> 01:07:24.383 other stuff in various ways. 01:07:24.383 --> 01:07:30.498 But we can't solve an attitude that's not willing to be willing to examine 01:07:30.719 --> 01:07:34.953 really the truth about our relationships with horses, which is we do, you know, 01:07:34.953 --> 01:07:38.714 we do what we want, and we kinda want them to be okay too, but we cannot 01:07:38.794 --> 01:07:43.614 we can't sort of delude ourselves about the power difference between us. 01:07:44.109 --> 01:07:51.328 So that's, I guess, what I would be most excited about also internationally 01:07:53.104 --> 01:07:57.024 given that people think about equine interactions in so many ways, it 01:07:57.024 --> 01:08:02.789 would be to continue cultivating an attitude, An attitude that I actually 01:08:02.789 --> 01:08:07.988 also have seen saw quite a bit in my early work with you all in Texas. 01:08:08.128 --> 01:08:08.628 Right? 01:08:08.833 --> 01:08:12.593 The this attitude of, like, if the attitude's right, we 01:08:12.593 --> 01:08:14.533 can solve this other stuff. 01:08:14.753 --> 01:08:14.994 Yeah. 01:08:14.994 --> 01:08:17.474 But we can't without a creative mind. 01:08:17.474 --> 01:08:22.718 We can't without some resources, but the point isn't to have unlimited resources. 01:08:23.258 --> 01:08:23.498 Yeah. 01:08:23.498 --> 01:08:28.923 The point is to to be able to really work with what you have. 01:08:28.923 --> 01:08:33.644 And that's what I do when I do facility design consultation for I get to do this 01:08:33.644 --> 01:08:38.378 with, you know, also equestrian facilities outside of human horse interactions. 01:08:39.798 --> 01:08:41.418 That's what gets me excited. 01:08:41.478 --> 01:08:44.333 That's what I wanna help cultivate in people. 01:08:44.394 --> 01:08:48.313 And I try to model it, of course, in myself, but I'm that's maybe 01:08:48.313 --> 01:08:51.534 where I wanna has to go as an area. 01:08:51.673 --> 01:08:52.333 You know? 01:08:53.878 --> 01:08:59.623 Rupert Isaacson: So how can listeners learn more, get involved, and, 01:08:59.623 --> 01:09:03.563 also, how can they help how can they become part of that mission 01:09:03.563 --> 01:09:05.473 for example, with Etienne, Ohio. 01:09:05.533 --> 01:09:09.803 And so if someone is it it's a lot of the people who are gonna be tuning 01:09:09.803 --> 01:09:14.038 into this, they won't necessarily be, you know, veterans of the field. 01:09:14.448 --> 01:09:18.243 A lot of people a lot of them are young people who are looking 01:09:18.243 --> 01:09:20.103 to go into this as a profession. 01:09:21.473 --> 01:09:26.558 And there's a kind of as you know now, there's this kind of almost too big of a 01:09:26.558 --> 01:09:32.418 smorgasbord of available ways to go in now where it was very narrow a few years ago. 01:09:34.348 --> 01:09:43.728 So, yeah, a, how how do people reach you, and what involvement and participation 01:09:43.948 --> 01:09:47.548 can they have in what you're doing and what these organizations are doing? 01:09:47.548 --> 01:09:50.858 And then from there, I'm gonna ask you for some advice for some 01:09:50.858 --> 01:09:52.318 people coming into the industry. 01:09:52.593 --> 01:09:55.873 So so to start with, how do people contact you, get involved, and 01:09:55.873 --> 01:10:00.193 what kind of involvement would be useful to the university and and 01:10:00.193 --> 01:10:04.418 to these organizations to kind of bring this whole field forward, do 01:10:04.418 --> 01:10:04.898 Nina Ekholm Fry: you feel? 01:10:04.898 --> 01:10:05.398 Yes. 01:10:05.778 --> 01:10:06.278 Yeah. 01:10:06.338 --> 01:10:11.398 The main the main important involvement is the person with themselves. 01:10:11.538 --> 01:10:16.343 Like like, finding what you're interested in and then modeling, 01:10:16.964 --> 01:10:20.243 living through your values, which can be hard if you don't have a 01:10:20.243 --> 01:10:23.208 tribe or a or a context or community. 01:10:23.348 --> 01:10:23.828 Mhmm. 01:10:23.828 --> 01:10:26.708 But they will they are they are there out there. 01:10:26.708 --> 01:10:30.223 You just have to try to find which 1 is right for you. 01:10:30.553 --> 01:10:35.593 But the most important valuable way of starting to get involved is, of course, 01:10:35.593 --> 01:10:39.848 to seek out knowledge, but then start living living through it yourself. 01:10:40.068 --> 01:10:40.388 You know? 01:10:40.388 --> 01:10:44.949 So you're not just sort of passive passively thinking about stuff, but 01:10:44.949 --> 01:10:48.988 getting in there and finding opportunities where you can try different things out. 01:10:49.158 --> 01:10:52.997 When it comes to the university, you know, we of course, mostly 01:10:52.997 --> 01:10:54.932 work internally with our students. 01:10:54.932 --> 01:10:55.652 You know? 01:10:55.652 --> 01:11:00.472 We have formal formal processes because we're a university that relates to them. 01:11:00.612 --> 01:11:03.217 Even if you are, you know, students at University of 01:11:03.217 --> 01:11:04.817 Denver, they can be work studies. 01:11:04.817 --> 01:11:08.737 They can be part of our research as student researchers, things like that. 01:11:08.737 --> 01:11:12.712 So we we do a lot of that training, but it's internal to the university. 01:11:13.442 --> 01:11:17.602 Seeking out some of our we we have professional development courses and 01:11:17.602 --> 01:11:21.487 things like that, but we also do, like, you know, stream presentations 01:11:22.267 --> 01:11:26.927 and and do other kind of, you know, really accessible stuff. 01:11:26.942 --> 01:11:31.531 So connecting with us as an institute, either on our social media or 01:11:31.531 --> 01:11:32.971 getting on our newsletter list. 01:11:32.971 --> 01:11:37.947 You can, you know, be in be be see what we're doing and where we wanna go. 01:11:38.917 --> 01:11:43.877 Working with me you can contact me by email, contact me on Facebook, you know, 01:11:43.877 --> 01:11:48.822 tell me what you're interested in and and see what I can do to connect you, 01:11:48.822 --> 01:11:54.302 what I can do to sort of, create a a community or show you communities that 01:11:54.422 --> 01:11:58.107 where you can be effective because, again, you can be effective in your 01:11:58.107 --> 01:12:03.227 own right modeling, just being a person who's interested in always being 01:12:03.227 --> 01:12:05.327 curious and always finding new things. 01:12:05.502 --> 01:12:09.102 But you can also then get involved with some of the older older 01:12:09.102 --> 01:12:14.797 organizations, so to speak, who may benefit a bit from a little better 01:12:14.797 --> 01:12:17.407 pace on the change if that makes sense. 01:12:17.977 --> 01:12:23.457 So I encourage all everyone to get there's typically committees and task forces. 01:12:23.517 --> 01:12:27.757 This all involves volunteer work and that might not be everybody might not have 01:12:27.757 --> 01:12:30.597 those hours to spare you know, equitably. 01:12:31.297 --> 01:12:34.017 But, you know, that's what we need. 01:12:34.017 --> 01:12:38.612 We're we're we need it's such a big change, like you said, from a few years 01:12:38.612 --> 01:12:43.031 ago or a decade ago when there's just a few people who got to say things. 01:12:43.332 --> 01:12:46.937 And then those people had their student, and they got to say the same thing. 01:12:47.156 --> 01:12:51.817 And now, you know, we have access to a much broader kind of spectrum 01:12:51.877 --> 01:12:56.972 of of experiences here in this area of human humans and horses. 01:12:57.752 --> 01:12:59.511 So that's that's where I would start there. 01:12:59.511 --> 01:13:01.312 I think you had a follow-up a 01:13:01.312 --> 01:13:02.032 Rupert Isaacson: follow-up question. 01:13:02.032 --> 01:13:02.192 Yeah. 01:13:02.192 --> 01:13:06.647 If if people are I'm I'm gonna get those resources that you mentioned 01:13:06.817 --> 01:13:11.232 in a few minutes so people will know the the email will know the social 01:13:11.232 --> 01:13:13.092 media and the websites and so on. 01:13:13.192 --> 01:13:18.577 But what would be your advice for young people going into this field now? 01:13:18.657 --> 01:13:21.877 Because it's a it's a much broader field than it was and they need to orient 01:13:21.877 --> 01:13:25.277 themselves and find out perhaps where they fit and what the opportunities are. 01:13:26.492 --> 01:13:27.472 What's your advice? 01:13:28.732 --> 01:13:29.212 Yeah. 01:13:29.212 --> 01:13:32.572 Nina Ekholm Fry: I I think that it's really useful to think about 01:13:32.572 --> 01:13:37.617 human animal interactions in the context also of your human interests, 01:13:38.077 --> 01:13:42.497 especially if you wanna, again, provide services where you include animals. 01:13:42.942 --> 01:13:48.092 Meaning, you might be particularly interested in the OCD community of 01:13:48.092 --> 01:13:53.647 obsessive compulsive disorders, and you you are knowledgeable and you're 01:13:53.647 --> 01:13:59.232 an advocate in with this you know, severe mental illness and the experience 01:13:59.232 --> 01:14:02.832 of of OCD, and then you learn, hey. 01:14:02.832 --> 01:14:04.512 What are the protective factors? 01:14:04.512 --> 01:14:05.972 It could be animal relationships. 01:14:06.087 --> 01:14:09.547 It could be getting treatment outdoors instead of indoors. 01:14:09.607 --> 01:14:14.972 Like, you're you I I encourage people to sort of there there are some people whose 01:14:14.972 --> 01:14:19.392 niche is more squarely on the animal side, and they're assisting with understanding 01:14:19.532 --> 01:14:21.552 the animals as part of human services. 01:14:21.837 --> 01:14:28.237 But if you're at all interested in interacting on the human side, really 01:14:28.237 --> 01:14:32.521 becoming immersed and knowledgeable about that human topic, whether 01:14:32.521 --> 01:14:37.182 it's a specific area of learning or or or or support services. 01:14:37.242 --> 01:14:37.742 Right? 01:14:37.962 --> 01:14:41.627 Or if you're interested in what a lot of people, you know, 01:14:41.627 --> 01:14:43.307 contact me and say horse therapy. 01:14:43.307 --> 01:14:45.167 I I just wanna do horse therapy. 01:14:45.627 --> 01:14:49.742 My question is always, do you want to be a health care provider? 01:14:50.362 --> 01:14:55.182 Because therapy is typically thought of as as part of of health care. 01:14:55.647 --> 01:14:57.427 Are you passionate about that? 01:14:57.567 --> 01:14:59.267 Are you passionate about treatment? 01:15:00.367 --> 01:15:00.767 You know? 01:15:00.767 --> 01:15:06.122 If so, let's think about what kind of license you wanna pursue and then think 01:15:06.122 --> 01:15:10.282 about how can you include interactions with horses to enhance this to really 01:15:10.282 --> 01:15:15.527 help people have an even more enhanced experience, you know, of their of their 01:15:15.527 --> 01:15:20.247 psychotherapy work and influence some of the colleagues to whom a client can't 01:15:20.247 --> 01:15:23.592 even say they've lost their dog because they're gonna say, oh, your dog died. 01:15:23.592 --> 01:15:24.092 Whatever. 01:15:24.152 --> 01:15:25.932 I thought your brother was ill. 01:15:26.152 --> 01:15:26.472 Yeah. 01:15:26.472 --> 01:15:30.232 And you care about 50 times more about this dog than your brother. 01:15:30.232 --> 01:15:33.197 Like, we have to sort of change that kind of culture. 01:15:33.737 --> 01:15:36.697 So and and the same can go in any area. 01:15:36.697 --> 01:15:38.797 You might not be interested in health care. 01:15:39.212 --> 01:15:41.852 You might be interested in other services that actually 01:15:41.852 --> 01:15:43.952 suit some populations better. 01:15:44.332 --> 01:15:48.507 And then be really good at that, be really good at the context 01:15:48.507 --> 01:15:52.527 you're in, and then understand how those animal interactions fit. 01:15:52.667 --> 01:15:56.122 Is again, I'm taking just 1 1 angle here. 01:15:56.122 --> 01:15:57.242 There's many more It's 01:15:57.242 --> 01:16:01.402 Rupert Isaacson: a good it's a very good angle, though because I think what 01:16:01.402 --> 01:16:06.447 you've touched on is that when people are coming out of the horse community 01:16:06.747 --> 01:16:10.912 wanting to go into, quote, unquote, therapeutic riding, which is just the 01:16:10.912 --> 01:16:14.532 term a lot of people would use in a very general way without necessarily knowing 01:16:16.032 --> 01:16:20.292 what that is or quite where they would end up within the equine assisted field. 01:16:20.432 --> 01:16:24.577 I think what you've touched on is that a lot of people want to come into it 01:16:24.577 --> 01:16:26.097 from a just well, I want to use horses. 01:16:26.097 --> 01:16:30.572 I love horses, and I wanna use horses to help people feel better, which is, 01:16:30.572 --> 01:16:32.752 of course, a laudable and good thing. 01:16:33.212 --> 01:16:37.427 But I think that often it's not thought through much more than that. 01:16:37.427 --> 01:16:43.267 And then if you put yourself in, say, my position as an autism father, well, 01:16:43.267 --> 01:16:47.752 I would like, in a perfect world, the person who's interacting with my 01:16:47.752 --> 01:16:51.372 autistic child to have a really, really, really solid background in autism. 01:16:51.862 --> 01:16:54.587 I also want them to have the horse skills, of course. 01:16:54.917 --> 01:17:02.732 But I want them to be taking that deep and vocational interest in 01:17:02.732 --> 01:17:04.432 the condition that my son has. 01:17:04.572 --> 01:17:07.567 Otherwise, there's a bit of a limit to what they can offer. 01:17:08.107 --> 01:17:13.808 And so I think your point is is actually very valid that if you're 01:17:13.947 --> 01:17:19.882 horsey and you want to go into the equine assisted world, you've probably 01:17:19.882 --> 01:17:21.242 got some horse skills already. 01:17:21.242 --> 01:17:23.182 And, of course, we can always upscale ourselves. 01:17:23.197 --> 01:17:26.717 There'll be a a small minority of people that come in as absolute 01:17:26.717 --> 01:17:30.177 rookies, but most people do it because they're already involved in horses. 01:17:30.993 --> 01:17:32.353 But I agree with you. 01:17:32.353 --> 01:17:33.252 It's not enough. 01:17:33.473 --> 01:17:42.947 I I think that without taking seriously the vocational feel of trying to be 01:17:42.947 --> 01:17:46.912 quite specific about the population or populations that you wanna work with 01:17:46.962 --> 01:17:51.862 because, of course, there's interplay between them, is something that I think 01:17:53.408 --> 01:17:56.868 isn't often thought through by people when they're going into the industry. 01:17:57.007 --> 01:17:59.348 And then what happens is they can end up getting a bit lost. 01:18:02.433 --> 01:18:09.767 Do you know of courses, training programs, orientation programs, that 01:18:09.767 --> 01:18:12.828 sort of thing that are being offered by some of these larger organizations 01:18:12.888 --> 01:18:18.033 that you're now involved with or other institutions that some of these people 01:18:18.033 --> 01:18:21.653 entering the industry could look to to help themselves get oriented? 01:18:24.277 --> 01:18:24.777 Yeah. 01:18:24.917 --> 01:18:27.977 Nina Ekholm Fry: My my advice, and, of course, it's gonna be a little biased, 01:18:28.037 --> 01:18:34.192 is to check us out as an academic institution because we have some trainings 01:18:34.493 --> 01:18:39.953 for sure, but we are also not like we also function as a knowledge hub. 01:18:40.013 --> 01:18:40.332 Right. 01:18:40.332 --> 01:18:43.877 Meaning, we're not needing to sell our own stuff. 01:18:44.017 --> 01:18:50.032 We have a university structure that helps, you know, keep us also going and that 01:18:50.032 --> 01:18:56.032 affords us that kind of a perspective, right, where I can't you know, if I ran 01:18:56.032 --> 01:19:01.527 my own own business, I wouldn't, you know, miss an opportunity to promote it. 01:19:01.747 --> 01:19:04.787 But it's it becomes a little different when you get to be in 01:19:04.787 --> 01:19:06.475 the in that this academic setting. 01:19:06.475 --> 01:19:11.064 It kinda have some drawbacks too, but but that's what I would say, 01:19:11.064 --> 01:19:16.574 you know, people who are interested in various ways that forces can be 01:19:16.574 --> 01:19:19.634 included can on them their own think. 01:19:19.694 --> 01:19:23.279 What kind of human service do I wanna do like we said? 01:19:23.279 --> 01:19:27.999 What do I wanna be really serious about, really knowledge knowledgeable about, 01:19:27.999 --> 01:19:32.784 really make sure I'm not missing the mark here, being harmful unintentionally. 01:19:34.445 --> 01:19:34.845 Mhmm. 01:19:34.845 --> 01:19:40.430 And then about including, you know, horses there because you can include interactions 01:19:40.490 --> 01:19:45.470 with animals so you can emphasize them in just endless amounts of human 01:19:45.975 --> 01:19:48.155 human services and human professions. 01:19:48.695 --> 01:19:52.295 So that's where I would sort of go because it depends on if people 01:19:52.295 --> 01:19:54.155 wanna do adaptive writing lessons. 01:19:54.215 --> 01:19:55.780 I would send them 1 way. 01:19:55.780 --> 01:19:57.300 I have that credential as well. 01:19:57.300 --> 01:20:02.425 If they wanna do another kind of school based work and and really 01:20:02.425 --> 01:20:05.405 just wanna get going on learning about some of the curriculum 01:20:05.625 --> 01:20:07.485 examples, I know where to send them. 01:20:07.735 --> 01:20:13.950 So but I think the overall idea kinda capturing this this idea that if you 01:20:13.950 --> 01:20:18.334 think about it in that way, that the human service exists and you include 01:20:18.334 --> 01:20:23.055 the horse into that human service, it really helps you stay clear on, I need 01:20:23.055 --> 01:20:25.234 to be really good at both these things. 01:20:25.294 --> 01:20:25.794 Yeah. 01:20:27.010 --> 01:20:27.090 Yeah. 01:20:27.090 --> 01:20:28.390 It's in both differences. 01:20:29.010 --> 01:20:29.490 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:20:29.490 --> 01:20:29.650 Yeah. 01:20:29.650 --> 01:20:30.850 I couldn't agree more. 01:20:30.850 --> 01:20:33.810 In some ways, it makes it 1 of the most complex fields to go into 01:20:33.810 --> 01:20:39.705 because then you've you've got the whole human side and the condition 01:20:39.845 --> 01:20:41.125 that you're looking to dress. 01:20:41.125 --> 01:20:45.220 But then you've got the whole horse training for that side, and then you got 01:20:45.220 --> 01:20:52.125 the whole horse welfare side before you're even looking at the organizational ups and 01:20:52.125 --> 01:20:54.625 downs of of running programs and so on. 01:20:54.725 --> 01:21:01.790 You know, it's it's really generous of you to say that you can guide 01:21:01.790 --> 01:21:03.490 people and people can email you. 01:21:03.820 --> 01:21:06.320 I know there are gonna be some people that will want to. 01:21:07.645 --> 01:21:11.185 Can you give us an email that we can give to people? 01:21:11.735 --> 01:21:12.235 Nina Ekholm Fry: Absolutely. 01:21:12.535 --> 01:21:15.035 I and I will make sure I have it in writing. 01:21:15.095 --> 01:21:19.080 It's gonna be my, you know, my should I say it now, or should we put it 01:21:19.080 --> 01:21:19.479 Rupert Isaacson: in writing? 01:21:19.799 --> 01:21:23.240 Now, and I'll repeat it, and then I'll I'll I'll get it for we'll we'll make sure 01:21:23.240 --> 01:21:25.580 it's there as a as a link in the blurb. 01:21:26.435 --> 01:21:26.755 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yes. 01:21:26.755 --> 01:21:27.475 And we'll write it down. 01:21:27.475 --> 01:21:31.475 And the good thing is because I have 3 names, if you put all those 3 names 01:21:31.475 --> 01:21:37.330 1 after another in in your Internet engine, you will most likely land on me. 01:21:37.500 --> 01:21:37.740 Just 01:21:37.740 --> 01:21:39.980 Rupert Isaacson: make sure you do any econ fries out there. 01:21:39.980 --> 01:21:40.700 It's true. 01:21:40.700 --> 01:21:41.075 Yeah. 01:21:41.235 --> 01:21:41.475 No. 01:21:41.475 --> 01:21:41.795 Nina Ekholm Fry: I know. 01:21:41.795 --> 01:21:43.075 It's the extra name. 01:21:43.075 --> 01:21:43.475 You know? 01:21:43.475 --> 01:21:46.135 It's sort of probability wise adds it. 01:21:46.185 --> 01:21:52.020 So my email is my first name, n I n a, and then there's a period, and then 01:21:52.020 --> 01:21:56.440 there's my middle name, e k h o l m. 01:21:57.455 --> 01:22:01.155 And then in my email, there's a hyphen, but, otherwise, there is not. 01:22:01.535 --> 01:22:04.290 F r y at 01:22:05.250 --> 01:22:08.690 Rupert Isaacson: It it runs in, yeah, aircon fry is just 1 word. 01:22:08.690 --> 01:22:09.190 Right? 01:22:09.250 --> 01:22:10.050 In this At is a 01:22:10.050 --> 01:22:12.976 Nina Ekholm Fry: hyphen hyphen between aircon Right? 01:22:13.115 --> 01:22:15.376 But, really, in my name, there is not. 01:22:15.755 --> 01:22:16.416 Go ahead. 01:22:16.876 --> 01:22:20.956 Address, there was technological restraints in how how how 01:22:20.956 --> 01:22:22.691 you can write these 3 names. 01:22:22.910 --> 01:22:31.225 So, yeah, first name, n I n a, period, e k h o l m, hyphen, f r y at, d as in 01:22:31.225 --> 01:22:34.685 Denver, u as in university, dot e d u. 01:22:34.745 --> 01:22:36.505 And that's how you can find me directly. 01:22:36.505 --> 01:22:41.260 You can also find this email, like I said, by by searching for my name and 01:22:41.400 --> 01:22:45.880 d and u, and you'll see the university, and you'll see my faculty page as well. 01:22:45.880 --> 01:22:46.200 So let 01:22:46.200 --> 01:22:47.345 Rupert Isaacson: me read this back to you. 01:22:47.825 --> 01:23:03.890 Nina, n I n a, dot e kholm, e k h o l m, hyphen, f r y at d u dot e d u? 01:23:05.066 --> 01:23:05.566 Perfect. 01:23:05.865 --> 01:23:06.365 Okay. 01:23:06.505 --> 01:23:07.325 Got it. 01:23:09.145 --> 01:23:14.940 And then give us a website that people can go to to learn more about 01:23:14.940 --> 01:23:18.800 the work at the university that you're doing, the the institute. 01:23:19.020 --> 01:23:20.875 Nina Ekholm Fry: So, Yes. 01:23:21.525 --> 01:23:25.145 Easiest way to is to type in IHAC. 01:23:25.445 --> 01:23:28.665 So it's an acronym for Institute for Human Animal Connection. 01:23:28.725 --> 01:23:38.570 So it's I h a c dot, d as in Denver, u as in university, dot e d u. 01:23:38.795 --> 01:23:44.175 So just put in I hack dot d u dot e d u, and you'll find our institute. 01:23:44.745 --> 01:23:48.150 Our institute's work where you'll learn a lot more about our research 01:23:48.310 --> 01:23:52.920 areas, a lot more about our our events and professional development 01:23:53.060 --> 01:23:56.815 and training, and also just how we wanna implement or bring to practice 01:23:57.305 --> 01:24:01.245 the knowledge that we also generate through our through our our research. 01:24:01.705 --> 01:24:06.930 Rupert Isaacson: I h a c dot d u dot e d u. 01:24:06.990 --> 01:24:10.130 Institute for Human and Animal Connection at Denver University. 01:24:10.716 --> 01:24:16.471 And there, they can also learn access your online education stuff, the 01:24:16.471 --> 01:24:21.770 events you do, the streaming events that you do, and they can sort of join 01:24:22.070 --> 01:24:27.976 that community and benefit from that. 01:24:27.976 --> 01:24:32.781 That's if if someone this was gonna be another question. 01:24:32.781 --> 01:24:38.301 If if if people are running programs and they want to find get oriented towards 01:24:38.301 --> 01:24:42.886 finding studies that back up the work that they're doing which, of course, is always 01:24:42.886 --> 01:24:44.346 helpful when they're looking for funding. 01:24:45.366 --> 01:24:49.946 Does iHAC can it help them with that to find some some of the 01:24:49.946 --> 01:24:53.886 studies that will support the work, the equine assisted work? 01:24:54.631 --> 01:24:54.871 Nina Ekholm Fry: Yeah. 01:24:54.871 --> 01:24:59.351 We don't have a a public repository, but others do. 01:24:59.351 --> 01:25:04.986 And there's actually a big 1 run by Fran Jurga who who's, you know, an 01:25:04.986 --> 01:25:09.706 equine an equine assisted studies repository where you can, you 01:25:09.706 --> 01:25:12.126 know, search yourself, so to speak. 01:25:12.186 --> 01:25:12.686 Okay. 01:25:12.736 --> 01:25:16.261 Because because our systems are you know, our university libraries and 01:25:16.261 --> 01:25:21.161 things are are are university specific, which is 1 of the limitations, 01:25:22.087 --> 01:25:23.867 sadly, of working in that system. 01:25:23.927 --> 01:25:24.246 Yeah. 01:25:24.246 --> 01:25:28.407 But that's how I would that's how I would start the search and also knowing 01:25:28.407 --> 01:25:34.202 that when you're looking for research to support your proposals, your grant 01:25:34.202 --> 01:25:40.677 applications, My my top tip is you're gonna need to be creative because there's 01:25:40.677 --> 01:25:47.622 research, but the research is as varied as some of the experiences Rupert and 01:25:47.622 --> 01:25:52.262 I have talked about where sometimes you walk into a a a training place and you're 01:25:52.262 --> 01:25:54.282 gonna run a course and you go, okay. 01:25:55.057 --> 01:25:58.117 We have different thoughts about about horses here. 01:25:58.177 --> 01:26:02.577 And interestingly enough, because the, you know, equine interactions 01:26:02.577 --> 01:26:07.611 or horse interactions area is so niche, sometimes and I've been, as I 01:26:07.611 --> 01:26:11.517 mentioned, a journal editor myself, but sometimes I think that people 01:26:11.517 --> 01:26:13.277 just said, ah, you can publish that. 01:26:13.277 --> 01:26:13.997 That's fine. 01:26:13.997 --> 01:26:15.137 It sounds interesting. 01:26:15.437 --> 01:26:19.377 And we sorta lost lost the plot a little bit on on the rigor. 01:26:19.762 --> 01:26:25.222 So that would be my also my top tip that in all things, we must be creative. 01:26:25.442 --> 01:26:29.657 There won't be a treasure trove of research articles that are perfect. 01:26:30.037 --> 01:26:35.077 You are still going to need to, you know, sort of work on your work on your 01:26:35.077 --> 01:26:41.801 case and not and not rely on on some perhaps medium quality stuff that's out 01:26:41.801 --> 01:26:42.282 Rupert Isaacson: there. 01:26:42.282 --> 01:26:47.216 But you say there's there's someone called Fran Jurgen who has put together 01:26:47.216 --> 01:26:51.076 a repository of the of assisted studies? 01:26:51.682 --> 01:26:51.762 She 01:26:51.762 --> 01:26:55.392 Nina Ekholm Fry: has a huge repository and I'm kinda now kinda blanking 01:26:55.392 --> 01:26:57.232 on the exact name of its this 01:26:57.232 --> 01:26:57.712 Rupert Isaacson: call. 01:26:57.712 --> 01:26:59.792 She's j u r g a, isn't she? 01:26:59.792 --> 01:27:00.612 Fran yoga? 01:27:01.357 --> 01:27:01.597 Yeah. 01:27:01.597 --> 01:27:01.997 Yes. 01:27:01.997 --> 01:27:02.637 Nina Ekholm Fry: With a j. 01:27:02.637 --> 01:27:02.877 Yes. 01:27:02.877 --> 01:27:03.357 And she's based 01:27:03.357 --> 01:27:06.737 Rupert Isaacson: up is she based up in Massachusetts, I seem to think? 01:27:07.837 --> 01:27:08.337 Perhaps. 01:27:08.477 --> 01:27:08.957 Nina Ekholm Fry: Perhaps. 01:27:08.957 --> 01:27:10.862 I just I talked to Yeah. 01:27:10.862 --> 01:27:14.382 I talked to her just, like, a couple of months ago last, 01:27:14.382 --> 01:27:16.322 but but, yeah, check it out. 01:27:16.382 --> 01:27:20.786 I can't the the actual name escapes me, but I it shouldn't be too hard to find. 01:27:20.786 --> 01:27:23.027 That's something that she's been working on. 01:27:23.027 --> 01:27:23.906 And so been 01:27:23.906 --> 01:27:26.306 Rupert Isaacson: a labor of love for her to put that together 01:27:26.306 --> 01:27:28.727 just to help advance the field? 01:27:29.102 --> 01:27:29.661 Nina Ekholm Fry: I don't know. 01:27:29.661 --> 01:27:31.342 We'll have to investigate more. 01:27:31.342 --> 01:27:35.502 I only know that she's in touch with me regularly to check-in about 01:27:35.502 --> 01:27:37.261 publications and things like that. 01:27:37.261 --> 01:27:41.307 So she's really you know, invested in in sort of bringing things 01:27:41.307 --> 01:27:43.226 together in an accessible place. 01:27:43.226 --> 01:27:47.002 It's it's my experience, but we we have to investigate further. 01:27:47.002 --> 01:27:48.602 She might be an interesting guest too. 01:27:48.602 --> 01:27:48.762 So 01:27:48.922 --> 01:27:49.082 Rupert Isaacson: No. 01:27:49.082 --> 01:27:49.642 She might well. 01:27:49.642 --> 01:27:53.502 And, actually, I'm I'm I'm looking her up now. 01:27:54.707 --> 01:28:04.412 So if if if listeners want to type in her name, Fran Jurga, j u r g a, you'll see 01:28:04.502 --> 01:28:07.162 that she pops up that she's a researcher. 01:28:07.972 --> 01:28:14.727 She also other types of veterinary, equine science, hoof care, equine podiatry, 01:28:15.187 --> 01:28:18.672 equestrian sport, veterinary medicine. 01:28:18.672 --> 01:28:20.772 So it's it's she's quite broad. 01:28:22.912 --> 01:28:25.302 And yeah, I can see the resources just so. 01:28:25.302 --> 01:28:35.742 If you just just typing in her name gets 1 to So I think it should 01:28:35.742 --> 01:28:36.882 might actually be in Michigan. 01:28:37.022 --> 01:28:37.522 Yeah. 01:28:37.822 --> 01:28:38.302 Okay. 01:28:38.302 --> 01:28:39.602 Well, that's a good tip. 01:28:41.627 --> 01:28:42.207 Well, listen. 01:28:43.067 --> 01:28:45.696 It's been it's been great to reconnect with you. 01:28:45.756 --> 01:28:46.736 It always is. 01:28:46.797 --> 01:28:53.292 And I'm just so impressed with how you've just helped to advance the field. 01:28:53.352 --> 01:28:59.907 And 1 thing which I've also really appreciated, I think, You know, when I 01:28:59.907 --> 01:29:04.947 first got involved in things that Equine assisted, I didn't do it by choice. 01:29:04.947 --> 01:29:10.062 As you know, I did it because my son had this reaction to the horse, and 01:29:10.062 --> 01:29:12.882 so I followed it and off we went. 01:29:13.222 --> 01:29:18.707 But, of course, I found out very quickly how factional and sometimes 01:29:18.707 --> 01:29:25.447 toxic the world of equine assisted stuff was sadly, and it came from a 01:29:25.892 --> 01:29:29.972 scarcity mentality of of people being worried, I think, that there was a 01:29:29.972 --> 01:29:31.812 limited number of resources out there. 01:29:31.812 --> 01:29:34.072 So anything new is a threat. 01:29:35.717 --> 01:29:39.177 And I think that it's not quite as bad as that anymore. 01:29:39.237 --> 01:29:43.127 And I think that's been I think you've been hugely influential 01:29:43.187 --> 01:29:44.407 in that, actually, Nina. 01:29:45.202 --> 01:29:50.342 I think your Scandinavian sense of justice and fairness so Nordic, really, I 01:29:50.342 --> 01:29:56.937 should say, has made a real contribution. 01:29:57.237 --> 01:30:00.942 I've I've I've watched you over the years bringing people together, 01:30:00.942 --> 01:30:03.902 bringing people together, bringing the organizations together, making 01:30:03.902 --> 01:30:05.442 sure everybody has a profile. 01:30:07.497 --> 01:30:10.157 And I think you've act I think it's actually born fruit. 01:30:11.927 --> 01:30:19.932 I think that you've helped to make the culture itself more empathetic, which 01:30:20.392 --> 01:30:26.137 was very necessary because we're supposed to be providing empathetic services. 01:30:26.357 --> 01:30:29.797 So if we're not leading with that ourselves, then there's a bit of 01:30:29.797 --> 01:30:34.362 a limit to the what we can offer to to a client who needs it. 01:30:35.702 --> 01:30:38.837 But, really you you've you've been very instrumental in that 01:30:38.837 --> 01:30:40.456 ever since the Prescott days. 01:30:41.556 --> 01:30:44.456 So, you know, please please keep doing it. 01:30:44.516 --> 01:30:52.201 And anything we can do to support, you must let us know because it's it goes 01:30:52.201 --> 01:30:53.822 so beyond individual methodologies. 01:30:54.681 --> 01:31:01.027 It's 1 big field, and I see it much more almost like a a 01:31:01.366 --> 01:31:05.226 university with a bunch of different faculties, but they're all related. 01:31:05.286 --> 01:31:06.951 They're all related. 01:31:08.451 --> 01:31:14.551 And it's if we want health authorities and governments and so forth to 01:31:15.016 --> 01:31:17.756 take us to the next level, then we also have to start behaving 01:31:19.016 --> 01:31:21.041 like grown ups at least in public. 01:31:21.521 --> 01:31:25.951 So, I think you've been an inspiration that way, and you've you've you've you've 01:31:25.951 --> 01:31:33.086 brought out the best in people to to sort of bring their higher self to the field. 01:31:33.086 --> 01:31:34.386 So thank you for that. 01:31:35.486 --> 01:31:36.706 Nina Ekholm Fry: Well, thank you. 01:31:36.766 --> 01:31:40.491 That was a that was a lovely, uplifting thing, and that's what 01:31:40.491 --> 01:31:42.491 I've always felt from you too. 01:31:42.491 --> 01:31:46.991 So I I I love the the symbiosis here. 01:31:48.016 --> 01:31:51.396 And I so appreciate being a guest on this on this podcast. 01:31:51.536 --> 01:31:52.176 You know? 01:31:52.176 --> 01:31:56.721 I I just I mean, our conversations are always great, but to be able to 01:31:56.721 --> 01:32:01.201 be part of the podcast community as well and to everybody listening Yeah. 01:32:01.281 --> 01:32:02.661 That's so lovely. 01:32:02.881 --> 01:32:04.101 So thank you. 01:32:04.527 --> 01:32:08.446 Rupert Isaacson: And anytime you've got you know, and the institute has something 01:32:08.446 --> 01:32:13.187 new coming up, let us know, and we can broadcast it, let people know, big it up. 01:32:14.372 --> 01:32:14.872 Wonderful. 01:32:15.011 --> 01:32:15.332 Yeah. 01:32:15.332 --> 01:32:15.832 Wow. 01:32:17.571 --> 01:32:21.091 Well, I know that you've you've probably run over the time that you 01:32:21.091 --> 01:32:25.837 needed to give because fair full disclosure listeners, I was a bit late. 01:32:25.976 --> 01:32:30.711 And so, Nina's actually been very generous to let us go as long as I know 01:32:30.711 --> 01:32:32.811 she needs to run off to another meeting. 01:32:33.221 --> 01:32:34.521 So thank you. 01:32:34.981 --> 01:32:40.606 And let's catch up soon, and hopefully, we get to do this again. 01:32:41.786 --> 01:32:42.266 Nina Ekholm Fry: Of course. 01:32:42.266 --> 01:32:43.546 We we can only hope. 01:32:43.546 --> 01:32:43.786 No. 01:32:43.786 --> 01:32:44.906 I would love to. 01:32:44.906 --> 01:32:50.011 So thank you you again for having me, for letting me talk about my human horse 01:32:50.011 --> 01:32:53.871 interaction staff, and, again, for being part of this with all your listeners. 01:32:54.251 --> 01:32:54.911 Thank you. 01:32:55.326 --> 01:32:55.826 Rupert Isaacson: K. 01:32:56.206 --> 01:32:57.106 See you soon. 01:32:58.046 --> 01:32:58.546 Bye. 01:32:59.006 --> 01:32:59.506 Bye. 01:33:00.204 --> 01:33:01.314 thank you for joining us. 01:33:01.344 --> 01:33:03.174 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 01:33:03.413 --> 01:33:08.453 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 01:33:08.453 --> 01:33:13.643 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 01:33:14.350 --> 01:33:18.999 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 01:33:18.999 --> 01:33:21.009 dealing with trauma around the world. 01:33:21.336 --> 01:33:25.086 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 01:33:25.086 --> 01:33:28.326 for riders on long ride home.com. 01:33:28.624 --> 01:33:32.674 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 01:33:32.674 --> 01:33:34.594 bring you and your horse joy. 01:33:35.131 --> 01:33:39.691 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 01:33:40.021 --> 01:33:40.951 See you on the next show. 01:33:41.363 --> 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