WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.350 --> 00:00:04.880 Shannon Putman: Yellow and welcome to a brand new Putman podcast. 00:00:04.880 --> 00:00:08.780 Pops, we could not be more excited to have you join us today. 00:00:09.020 --> 00:00:22.040 I'm gonna get right into it and let you know that we are joined by the absolutely fantastic Chris Gumby, head of commercial at virtual speech, and I cannot wait for him to introduce himself. 00:00:22.040 --> 00:00:23.090 So Chris, welcome. 00:00:23.720 --> 00:00:24.680 Chris: Thank you so much, Shannon. 00:00:24.680 --> 00:00:26.180 I really appreciate you inviting me on. 00:00:26.240 --> 00:00:29.450 I've yeah, been listening along and yeah, was keen to come and talk to you 00:00:29.960 --> 00:00:30.530 Shannon Putman: Yay. 00:00:31.070 --> 00:00:32.510 I hope my voice wasn't too annoying. 00:00:32.510 --> 00:00:34.820 I listened to myself back and I was like, oh, 00:00:35.105 --> 00:00:35.960 Chris: Yeah, always. 00:00:36.010 --> 00:00:38.920 No it wasn't, but I always have that effect of Yeah, myself as well. 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:41.230 I'm like, what it sound like, but no. 00:00:41.290 --> 00:00:41.770 All good. 00:00:42.895 --> 00:00:44.065 Shannon Putman: Well, Chris, welcome. 00:00:44.065 --> 00:00:45.895 I guess that I just did a little teaser. 00:00:45.895 --> 00:00:47.245 You're from virtual speech. 00:00:47.355 --> 00:00:51.435 Would you go ahead and kind of introduce yourself and let us know a little bit about you. 00:00:51.825 --> 00:00:52.515 Chris: Yeah, of course. 00:00:52.515 --> 00:00:56.005 So, yeah, as you mentioned, I'm head of commercial work, virtual speech. 00:00:56.055 --> 00:01:06.985 I joined a virtual speech team about three years ago now having already worked with them through a, another XR organization running an XR award show, membership association and. 00:01:07.615 --> 00:01:13.065 Yeah, I met the virtual speech team there and when they started to scale up jumped over as quickly as I could to join up on there. 00:01:13.065 --> 00:01:24.525 But apart from that, yeah, I've been working in that sort of VR world for what, five, six years now, which is not a lot of time actually in the grand scheme of quite a few of the people that I know you've had working in and talking to you so far. 00:01:25.035 --> 00:01:25.275 Yeah. 00:01:25.305 --> 00:01:35.895 Apart from that, we are a a soft and professional skills provider, and I run all, everything to do with our sales, our customer success, all of our client relationships and partnerships and all that good stuff as well. 00:01:37.075 --> 00:01:37.885 Shannon Putman: Wonderful. 00:01:38.305 --> 00:01:48.175 And I think Chris is selling him hisself short and virtual speech because virtual speech was one of actually the first softwares that I actually used with students. 00:01:48.325 --> 00:01:51.250 So back in 2018 when I opened up the first VR lab. 00:01:51.740 --> 00:01:54.200 In Kentucky at 500 West Gulbert. 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:55.250 Shout out Cochrane. 00:01:55.640 --> 00:02:04.050 And we had the Oculus go is when we started using virtual speech for their digital backpack defense, and it was fantastic. 00:02:04.050 --> 00:02:11.690 So I've been a fan of virtual speech for a long time and there's amazing features, unbelievable things about it that set you guys apart. 00:02:11.690 --> 00:02:17.381 So, can you kind of give us a little bit of info about what virtual speech actually is and kind of the journey that. 00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:20.635 You know, it's been on as this technology has progressed. 00:02:20.940 --> 00:02:21.780 Chris: Yeah, sure. 00:02:21.780 --> 00:02:22.020 Yeah. 00:02:22.020 --> 00:02:26.690 No we've always appreciated and very kind words and always appreciated your support and advocacy and I think having. 00:02:27.355 --> 00:02:28.585 It's actually been really nice. 00:02:28.585 --> 00:02:39.695 I mean, like I say, I joined that journey later on in virtual speech, but knowing like the sort of core following and the history that I had when I joined but I mean it was founded, yeah, 20. 00:02:40.110 --> 00:02:42.930 16, I believe by by our two co-founders. 00:02:42.930 --> 00:02:49.430 And one thing that always really drew me to it and I'm still really passionate about now, was that it came from a core problem that our founders had. 00:02:49.430 --> 00:02:54.010 So, Sophie Thompson, who's one of our founders who I know you, you know well, was had. 00:02:55.060 --> 00:03:09.130 Severe social anxiety and and as with everybody, and I think a lot of people that come through either the sort of schooling systems or into work found that, you know, they couldn't avoid speaking in public or having these sorts of conversations or going through these sorts of experiences. 00:03:09.985 --> 00:03:15.835 And really was lacking a place to be able to develop and practice their skills and help overcome her fear of public speaking. 00:03:16.555 --> 00:03:23.995 And then Don Barnard, who's our other co-founder, was working with VR Tech at the time in Jaguar Land Rover the car company here in the uk. 00:03:24.545 --> 00:03:29.375 And use that experience to sort of create a virtual space for Sophie to practice in. 00:03:29.795 --> 00:03:34.205 And that was the reason it was founded, was just as a tool to help her overcome that fear. 00:03:34.205 --> 00:03:35.645 And it really resonated with her. 00:03:35.645 --> 00:03:36.545 It worked really well. 00:03:36.545 --> 00:03:40.985 And you don't have to search far to see her doing keynotes and all that sort of stuff. 00:03:40.985 --> 00:03:44.885 It's usually her that does a lot of the podcasts and things like that now for us. 00:03:44.885 --> 00:03:46.395 And and those sorts of things too. 00:03:46.395 --> 00:03:49.885 She's, it's, she's the best walking advert for virtual speech that there is. 00:03:50.335 --> 00:04:10.195 And since then, we've gone from like, say those early days back in 2018, working with very early sort of like tech within the VR world as well to developing now a much more rounded, sort of full professional skills platform that uses VR and AI and all of those great buzzwords to help develop these skills in a, in hopefully a really meaningful way. 00:04:12.160 --> 00:04:14.410 Shannon Putman: You're, you absolutely nailed it. 00:04:14.410 --> 00:04:16.360 Sophie's amazing, wonderful. 00:04:16.600 --> 00:04:17.140 Love her. 00:04:17.410 --> 00:04:21.400 And being born out of a necessity, I think always. 00:04:21.400 --> 00:04:24.820 Give some genuine, you know, authenticity to a product. 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:29.820 E especially because those involved in creating it actually have a vested interest in it. 00:04:29.820 --> 00:04:40.070 And so many times I say we see people make products for people and it's disingenuous, you know, the hearing world loves to make products for deaf people and never ask deaf people if they need it or want it. 00:04:40.530 --> 00:04:43.170 And so virtual speech I is very different from that. 00:04:43.170 --> 00:04:44.370 And so I feel. 00:04:45.045 --> 00:04:48.555 It's a very well-rounded and thought out software. 00:04:48.605 --> 00:04:54.635 And as you said, the features and nobody can avoid public speaking. 00:04:54.815 --> 00:04:57.785 'cause you know, people are like, oh, well we don't have speech classes and stuff. 00:04:57.785 --> 00:04:59.105 No, but you have to talk to people. 00:04:59.105 --> 00:05:09.860 That's public speaking and I feel like I don't wanna be that person, but this generation of kids, like I. I don't, I think it's a big need. 00:05:09.860 --> 00:05:15.110 Like when you're 25 and your parents still making your doctor's appointment for you, that's not good. 00:05:15.320 --> 00:05:26.630 So what is it that I'm like, I know what I think, but what is it about you think virtual speech and VR in general, like why is it so effective for things like public speaking? 00:05:27.455 --> 00:05:27.785 Chris: Yeah. 00:05:27.810 --> 00:05:29.960 And you hit the nail on the head a lot there. 00:05:30.050 --> 00:05:37.435 And one thing that we really noticed is, okay, it was built really for Sophie's need initially, but then as it's grown, we've recognized a lot that learners. 00:05:38.290 --> 00:05:40.870 All differ in their abilities. 00:05:40.900 --> 00:05:47.360 Like, well, not only their abilities, but confidence, experience their cultural background, their exposure to these sorts of events. 00:05:47.580 --> 00:05:50.850 Increasingly more awareness around neurodiversity and those kind of things as well. 00:05:50.850 --> 00:05:54.790 How people learn and how people I guess, adapt to these situations. 00:05:54.790 --> 00:05:58.050 And then how they actually communicate is all vastly different. 00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:04.780 And so virtual speech and a lot of the tools that we built were born in response to that kind of growing demand from. 00:06:05.800 --> 00:06:16.380 Not only sort of l and d teams and businesses, but universities and students with, like you say, that generation now for like a realistic, flexible environment to build communication skills in. 00:06:16.930 --> 00:06:25.750 And in terms of how we sort of settled on VR for that stuff we kind of talk about always being a learning company first, and we'd always use like the best technology that's available to do that. 00:06:26.260 --> 00:06:31.480 And over the last nearly 10 years, like VR has just always been the best tool for doing that. 00:06:31.870 --> 00:06:32.830 You'll hear a lot. 00:06:32.830 --> 00:06:44.400 I think when people talk about the benefits of vr, they do it through the lens of things like working at heights and firefighter training 'cause it can simulate a dangerous environment safely and allow people to fail safely. 00:06:44.970 --> 00:06:48.510 But on that lens we see that exactly the same as something like public speaking. 00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:57.660 It might not be dangerous as such, you might not be risking your life, although I think it's, what is it, the second most common phobia in the world or something along those lines. 00:06:57.970 --> 00:07:06.220 But you say that risk-free practice element is appealing and with practice as well, it's also something that is just really hard to practice. 00:07:06.320 --> 00:07:10.980 So, so there's two main areas I guess that we have within a virtual speech. 00:07:10.980 --> 00:07:13.830 There is that public speaking and presentation section to it. 00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:24.080 You know, you can, no matter how proficient you feel you are, like if you're trying to practice a presentation or a speech, it's really hard to do that under realistic real life scenarios. 00:07:24.510 --> 00:07:33.450 We sort of have used a few different analogies along the way and the, and I was talking to some of our team earlier and like the sort of sports analogy always kind of comes out well within it. 00:07:33.460 --> 00:07:37.580 If any of you have like played sports before then you can learn the theory of it. 00:07:37.580 --> 00:07:46.280 You can maybe run some drills, but unless you're like practicing pretty consistently under match circumstances and scenarios and replicating what that feels like, you're not gonna perform at that highest level. 00:07:46.840 --> 00:07:49.150 So being able to replicate those. 00:07:49.465 --> 00:07:57.515 Scenarios, speaking in front of an audience, not just in front of the mirror, having an audience throw questions at you having distractions happening. 00:07:57.905 --> 00:07:59.675 All those things can help you prepare. 00:08:00.215 --> 00:08:12.045 And then there's the more one-to-one side around lots and lots of skills which we're building out now, especially you mentioned sort of students and things like job interviews or disciplinary meetings for managers. 00:08:12.670 --> 00:08:19.210 Negotiations and pitching all of these skills that, again, are really hard to practice and you don't get a dry run really. 00:08:19.290 --> 00:08:25.230 And we work with a huge amount of careers departments and universities and things, and they're fantastic at starting to replicate those. 00:08:25.230 --> 00:08:27.360 But doing that at scale is so hard. 00:08:27.760 --> 00:08:36.910 And so that's another area that VR and the AI has enabled of, like just this flexible, realistic practice element that can also adapt to. 00:08:37.435 --> 00:08:41.135 Each individual circumstance and each people's sort of proficiency level. 00:08:41.135 --> 00:08:44.045 And we've got people that have never spoken in front of an audience. 00:08:44.225 --> 00:08:49.785 And then we've got people practicing and preparing for TED Talks in, in the app, and it can kind of really tailor to each of those. 00:08:49.785 --> 00:08:52.285 And yeah, VR is always the platform that's been the best to do that. 00:08:54.205 --> 00:09:07.315 Shannon Putman: One of the things that I absolutely loved about virtual speech when I was using it with the students and their backpack, and again, for anybody who hasn't heard the story JCPS had a digital backpack that they've policy that they implemented and students in certain. 00:09:07.945 --> 00:09:13.365 Grades have to create a backpack defense in a slideshow presentation and actually present it and defend it. 00:09:13.845 --> 00:09:17.025 And I had five students practice with virtual speech and five without. 00:09:17.025 --> 00:09:22.935 And the five that practiced with virtual speech passed on the first time with an average score of 17, the five that didn't. 00:09:22.935 --> 00:09:26.535 Only one PR passed on the first time and the average score was 12. 00:09:26.865 --> 00:09:29.235 And there were so many different reasons for that. 00:09:29.235 --> 00:09:30.355 And some of the. 00:09:30.435 --> 00:09:39.265 Features that were really stood out to me with virtual speech was a, the ability to listen to themselves after they were done. 00:09:39.625 --> 00:09:46.285 'cause I think so many times we always hear ourselves differently and we might not catch our own tone and things like that. 00:09:46.345 --> 00:09:48.295 And so being able to hear. 00:09:48.725 --> 00:09:52.205 How you actually speak, how you say things was a huge thing. 00:09:52.295 --> 00:09:55.535 And when they put that headset on, nobody was looking at them. 00:09:55.895 --> 00:09:58.265 You know, they could just get into the moment. 00:09:58.265 --> 00:10:05.015 And when I say nobody was looking at them, I mean like their peers, you know, 'cause like some people, like talking in front of your peers is worse than talking in front of strangers. 00:10:05.495 --> 00:10:07.805 So the features that you guys have. 00:10:08.210 --> 00:10:11.600 Go above and beyond, you know, a lot of what I've seen out there. 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:18.830 And can you talk to me a little bit more about kind of how you guys thought of those and why it's so important that those are in virtual speech. 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:19.490 Chris: Yeah. 00:10:19.580 --> 00:10:20.270 Yeah, for sure. 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:21.400 I think it's a really good point. 00:10:21.400 --> 00:10:23.365 It always really pleasantly surprises me. 00:10:24.340 --> 00:10:26.800 People are willing to kind of just put themselves out there. 00:10:26.800 --> 00:10:37.620 Especially 'cause like when we said we're dealing with, a lot of the time people who aren't proficient in these skills maybe have a fear of speaking and then you know, you provide this safe practice space. 00:10:37.620 --> 00:10:46.640 They could still be in a room in front of all their peers, but you put their headset on and put them in front of a virtual audience who's always staring at them, which if anything is maybe more intimidating. 00:10:47.020 --> 00:10:48.540 And they'll dive right in and do that. 00:10:48.540 --> 00:10:49.110 And that. 00:10:49.550 --> 00:10:52.355 That use case you mentioned and the results from the backpack is amazing. 00:10:52.355 --> 00:10:56.015 We've got lots of other sort of case studies that have seen that in just such a short amount of time. 00:10:56.795 --> 00:11:12.775 But but yeah, in terms of some of the features and things we, we put in there, firstly, it's about sort of, I guess our learning team put it really well and I did a talk with them recently and they said about like putting that fine line between a kind of psychologically safe space to practice in. 00:11:13.205 --> 00:11:17.015 While also being realistic enough to elicit that like emotional response. 00:11:17.015 --> 00:11:21.755 So you could probably look at a screenshot of virtual speech and go, that's not photorealistic. 00:11:21.785 --> 00:11:24.695 Like, they're not that intimidating, the avatars and those kind of things. 00:11:24.695 --> 00:11:29.320 But if you stand in front of them in an immersive format, then you're gonna find that. 00:11:30.085 --> 00:11:32.805 It has that emotional response within you to to replicate that. 00:11:32.805 --> 00:11:35.085 And that's where a lot of the other features and things we've come with. 00:11:35.085 --> 00:11:40.365 So, particularly in the implementation of AI features, AI is obviously very popular now. 00:11:40.375 --> 00:11:47.045 We've continued to develop AI as generative ai and those kind of tools have become more popular in the last few years. 00:11:47.555 --> 00:11:57.635 But even before then, we were using other kinds of artificial intelligence to simulate realistic, adaptable scenarios and provide core feedback. 00:11:57.635 --> 00:11:58.025 So. 00:11:58.580 --> 00:11:59.750 A few areas of feedback. 00:12:00.410 --> 00:12:02.510 Things like actual statistics. 00:12:02.510 --> 00:12:04.520 How well do you speak? 00:12:04.580 --> 00:12:06.800 Are you using filler words? 00:12:06.860 --> 00:12:09.020 Are you maintaining eye contact with your audience? 00:12:09.020 --> 00:12:10.280 Is your body language good? 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:12.680 Are you easy to listen to? 00:12:12.680 --> 00:12:15.830 Does your sentence structure make it easy to understand? 00:12:16.330 --> 00:12:16.960 And then. 00:12:18.115 --> 00:12:23.695 Giving feedback and the ability to sort of act on those as well as the tools to self-assess as well. 00:12:23.695 --> 00:12:29.545 So watching yourself back, listening to yourself back that's a really important part of that kind of learning cycle. 00:12:29.935 --> 00:12:33.295 And then having a really realistic atmosphere to do those in. 00:12:33.295 --> 00:12:42.405 So, like I mentioned a few of them before, but things like questions and interruptions, if you were standing in front of an audience and presenting, I dunno. 00:12:43.305 --> 00:12:45.435 Maybe a keynote or maybe it's just a work meeting. 00:12:45.435 --> 00:12:47.340 You're presenting a new policy as a manager. 00:12:48.315 --> 00:12:51.915 In life, people are gonna put their hands up and go, wait, I didn't understand what you just said there. 00:12:51.945 --> 00:12:52.725 What does that mean? 00:12:52.845 --> 00:13:03.975 Like, can you tell me more about those things and having those features in the app to, to challenge you and give you these sort of realistic scenarios or, you know, maybe you're a teacher practicing, giving a lecture and a student's gonna go. 00:13:04.185 --> 00:13:05.175 Can you just, yeah. 00:13:05.205 --> 00:13:05.925 Talk me through that. 00:13:05.980 --> 00:13:07.540 What do you mean when you say X, Y, Z? 00:13:08.090 --> 00:13:13.250 So yeah, all these features to kind of replicate the realistic scenarios and then give you the tools to feedback. 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:19.070 And then we've also now implemented the next stage of that like learning cycle. 00:13:19.070 --> 00:13:23.260 So we've developed a learning cycle based off a lot of research and other learning cycles around there. 00:13:23.260 --> 00:13:25.020 We've learning feedback. 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:31.340 And then also the next stage is kind of that like coaching element, like implementing that feedback to then go in and repeat. 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:35.780 And we now have a coach in app, so that will go through that scenario with you. 00:13:35.780 --> 00:13:36.440 So after you've done. 00:13:36.950 --> 00:13:45.545 A presentation or a job interview you can sit down with Hugh, who's our resident sort of mascot and our, who was our first AI avatar. 00:13:45.545 --> 00:13:53.275 And is as much as a team, as I think any of us are, and talk through your experience and that's led by you, but like how did you feel that went? 00:13:53.365 --> 00:13:54.380 What do you wanna work on? 00:13:54.710 --> 00:13:55.580 Here's your feedback. 00:13:55.580 --> 00:13:56.300 Do you think it's fair? 00:13:56.300 --> 00:13:57.980 Do you think there was anything you disagree with? 00:13:58.460 --> 00:14:02.150 Hey, you mentioned, you know, structuring answers or active listening is something you wanna work on. 00:14:02.150 --> 00:14:03.890 Let's try and exercise for that now. 00:14:04.340 --> 00:14:04.700 Great. 00:14:04.730 --> 00:14:05.330 You've got that. 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:06.410 Go back in and try again. 00:14:06.410 --> 00:14:11.750 And like, that full learning cycle I think is really important with continuously adding areas across all of those. 00:14:12.903 --> 00:14:13.683 Shannon Putman: Absolutely. 00:14:13.683 --> 00:14:18.583 And there's so many things that you mentioned that are so critical and especially when you're dealing with people. 00:14:18.583 --> 00:14:19.843 People are unpredictable. 00:14:20.053 --> 00:14:23.953 You know, the old school show kids say the darnedest things because they do. 00:14:24.193 --> 00:14:29.293 And so being able to try and prepare as much as possible for those is, is critical. 00:14:29.563 --> 00:14:31.453 And I know everybody tends to be afraid. 00:14:31.453 --> 00:14:36.583 Or, you know, of ai, and of course we obviously have to, you know, approach all of that cautiously. 00:14:36.583 --> 00:14:41.303 But in this instance especially with educators, you know, they worry about being replaced. 00:14:41.303 --> 00:14:48.593 And so, you know, when you say, well, we've got an AI coach that can go over the speech with 'em, what do you say to those educators that are like, well, that's my job. 00:14:49.073 --> 00:14:52.673 It, you know, and then put up a, you know, a kind of a roadblock to vr. 00:14:52.673 --> 00:14:58.013 How do you know, talk to them and reassure them that they're not actually being replaced? 00:14:58.028 --> 00:15:07.658 Chris: Yeah, no, it's a fantastic question and one that that is on a lot of people's minds, especially with the ai, you know, AI replacing jobs and all of that kind of aspect to it. 00:15:08.118 --> 00:15:11.658 And I'll use a, like a real case to, I think, answer that 'cause. 00:15:12.363 --> 00:15:21.673 We work with a university in Illinois, a rural university who have implemented virtual speech over the last year or so across a huge number of different aspects of the university. 00:15:22.053 --> 00:15:25.833 One of the main areas for it was career services and so. 00:15:26.973 --> 00:15:35.883 Their careers team were, you know, do some fantastic work and they run through the full kind of like experience of a student who, hey, I wanna prepare for a job interview. 00:15:35.883 --> 00:15:42.633 So historically the careers team would go out and prepare for that job interview, do a research, try and simulate the, that the best they can. 00:15:43.183 --> 00:15:46.663 And then what they were finding was that was taking up so much of their time. 00:15:46.663 --> 00:15:52.603 They weren't able to do all of the other stuff that went around that, that role play and everything to do with it. 00:15:53.353 --> 00:15:58.723 And we see the same in things like industry and business as well, like especially around that role play front. 00:15:59.818 --> 00:16:08.368 If you've, I'm, I've done a fair amount of terrible manager training over the years, or sales training, and typically role plays suck. 00:16:08.368 --> 00:16:17.058 Like I ask this question a lot when I do like presentations for companies like, you know, how many of you have done role plays, a part you training and how many of you actually enjoyed them or learned something from them? 00:16:17.058 --> 00:16:21.918 And typically that's a big drop off then in, in how many people sort of got value from them. 00:16:22.638 --> 00:16:25.618 So taking that like Aurora, kind of scenario. 00:16:25.678 --> 00:16:32.638 They implemented AI into their career center for interview practice as an optional tool. 00:16:33.178 --> 00:16:40.288 So you could either come and practice an interview in VR using virtual speech or with one of their careers coaches. 00:16:41.008 --> 00:16:46.793 And now they've found that since implementing this, over 70% of requests for interviews are asking to use VR over the traditional format. 00:16:47.533 --> 00:16:54.073 And it's then in return freed up a huge amount of time for the career staff to focus on. 00:16:54.838 --> 00:16:56.848 Continuing to develop those skills. 00:16:57.148 --> 00:17:02.523 So, you know, the coaching element of it the coaching in app is also fantastic and allows students to go through that stuff. 00:17:02.523 --> 00:17:13.303 But it's, it also isn't replacing the need for more in-depth work or frees up help for all the stuff outside of that interview in terms of like the application and the CVS and those sorts of stuff too. 00:17:13.303 --> 00:17:19.694 So one of the main things we are seeing when we go into businesses or schools or those sorts of things is that we're not trying to replace the work that. 00:17:20.298 --> 00:17:21.348 Humans are doing. 00:17:21.408 --> 00:17:26.928 And in the same way where we've always had self-reflection as a huge part of the app, you can't replace that. 00:17:27.168 --> 00:17:35.778 We have tools in there that are really important for sharing recordings not only with yourself, but with your teachers or your careers guidance and those sorts of things. 00:17:35.808 --> 00:17:37.938 'cause that feedback loop is so important. 00:17:38.488 --> 00:17:41.758 But it's about taking the roadblocks that they would have in doing these things at scale. 00:17:41.818 --> 00:17:47.188 And they're able to do it with a huge amount more students now, because they don't have to spend ages researching every single. 00:17:47.513 --> 00:17:52.633 Job interview because AI has all that power immediately to hand for better or worse. 00:17:52.633 --> 00:17:54.263 But in this situation it works pretty well. 00:17:55.468 --> 00:17:58.068 Shannon Putman: That was a truly phenomenal answer by the way. 00:17:58.068 --> 00:17:58.878 That was perfect. 00:17:58.928 --> 00:18:00.578 You're exactly right. 00:18:00.578 --> 00:18:09.563 Like it's, that's exactly what I say, so I'm glad somebody else is saying it because, you know, people tend not to believe, you know, like, oh, well you're just trying to sell it to me, but. 00:18:10.278 --> 00:18:20.928 Also, I think that can be another great feature of the AI coach in that sometimes, you know, you don't wanna listen to your teacher or like your mom, you know, like big up to Robin. 00:18:20.928 --> 00:18:22.398 She's almost always right. 00:18:22.398 --> 00:18:23.808 But you think I'm gonna admit that to her? 00:18:23.808 --> 00:18:24.738 Absolutely not. 00:18:25.128 --> 00:18:26.868 You know, so Exactly. 00:18:27.018 --> 00:18:27.528 Dang it. 00:18:27.768 --> 00:18:28.319 And she does listen. 00:18:28.663 --> 00:18:30.043 She supports you girl. 00:18:30.543 --> 00:18:30.993 I love her. 00:18:31.233 --> 00:18:33.333 But, this episode's never getting published now? 00:18:33.483 --> 00:18:33.723 Chris: Yes. 00:18:33.843 --> 00:18:44.493 Shannon Putman: You know, so sometimes they'll take advice from that AI coach as opposed to, you know, especially because they don't have any, you know, previous experiences with that coach, or they don't have any emotional attachment either way. 00:18:44.493 --> 00:18:49.023 You know, teachers and students are both human, so sometimes they can. 00:18:49.683 --> 00:18:50.883 Miff each other off. 00:18:50.883 --> 00:18:56.223 And so if you bring that into it, you know, then that's gonna affect the learning and stuff like that. 00:18:56.223 --> 00:19:06.003 And so, A, that aspect and then B, the idea that it allows you to have some help, you know, and be able to work with other students on other things, like you said. 00:19:06.303 --> 00:19:08.733 And so that ability to kind of multiply. 00:19:09.318 --> 00:19:11.328 Yourself as the educator is huge. 00:19:11.628 --> 00:19:17.488 And the other feature that I don't know if we've actually mentioned that I always loved was the real time input. 00:19:17.818 --> 00:19:25.258 You know, so when I'm watching somebody give a speech, you know, like I might think that they're looking at a specific area, but they might not actually be. 00:19:25.258 --> 00:19:27.688 And so, you know, when you're in virtual speech. 00:19:28.233 --> 00:19:33.063 You get, you know, you find that one person that's like nodding and so you just stare at them. 00:19:33.063 --> 00:19:36.093 It can give you that real time input to like shift your gaze. 00:19:36.183 --> 00:19:39.153 And then only the user in the headset gets that. 00:19:39.153 --> 00:19:42.153 So it's not like I'm like waving in the back and other people see. 00:19:42.603 --> 00:19:47.013 So, you know, those features kind of take it to that next level. 00:19:47.013 --> 00:19:50.613 That I think is what's such a boon for vr. 00:19:50.973 --> 00:19:51.633 You know, so. 00:19:52.038 --> 00:19:52.458 Chris: Mm-hmm. 00:19:52.958 --> 00:20:08.003 Shannon Putman: How do you guys a as a company utilize those type of features in say, like the business world, you know, like not in education, like, are you finding that they're reacting the same kind of way and or are they, are there different things that they look for? 00:20:08.693 --> 00:20:09.143 Chris: Yeah. 00:20:09.443 --> 00:20:10.013 Yeah. 00:20:10.223 --> 00:20:18.733 I think in education there's probably an assumption that people are at, like the earliest stage of their skillset with these sorts of skills. 00:20:18.833 --> 00:20:23.648 Like we said, we're working with students, we're, you know, we're seeing, we've got the. 00:20:24.683 --> 00:20:29.948 What I've heard it referred to as like the COVID generation of students and stuff like that coming through, like social skills are down. 00:20:29.948 --> 00:20:41.188 Like I I'm an engineering student right by trade and I, so I can sort of, I'm one of them and can admit, but like I know a lot of my peers where some of the smartest people I've ever met have had zero social skills. 00:20:41.558 --> 00:20:56.778 But so you're coming through those systems and there's a, there's kind of an assumption of like that lower skillset for lack of a better way of putting it, the difference, I guess then when you get into enterprise and where we've actually seen a lot of uptake is that the skillset varies a huge amount more. 00:20:57.168 --> 00:21:12.078 If you're a business who's looking to implement something like this at scale you may have fresh graduates that are coming in and we've worked with things like consulting firms that go great, we've got all these really skilled graduates, but they can't present to clients all the way through to then. 00:21:12.453 --> 00:21:21.113 New managers who have never had to have those difficult conversations before, but then right up to C-suites and executives who deliver presentations all the time. 00:21:21.113 --> 00:21:28.813 But still know that like, that sort of like sports analogy, you have to kind of keep those muscles warm and keep your skills up and practice those things. 00:21:29.533 --> 00:21:35.753 So that is one of the powers of of VR and AI with this sort of adaptability. 00:21:35.753 --> 00:21:39.713 And you said about some of the features in there, like that live guidance. 00:21:40.613 --> 00:21:42.803 If you're brand new to these things, you can get a lot of help. 00:21:42.953 --> 00:21:45.413 When you're doing this might be the first presentation you've given. 00:21:45.773 --> 00:21:47.153 It'll give you hints along the way. 00:21:47.153 --> 00:21:48.413 It'll give you guidance for that. 00:21:48.443 --> 00:21:51.623 We've got, we focus on like the simulation practice side. 00:21:51.623 --> 00:21:57.923 We've also got a huge catalog of learning and e-learning and exercises that go into these. 00:21:57.923 --> 00:22:00.473 So use the eye contact example. 00:22:00.623 --> 00:22:01.373 There's a whole. 00:22:01.883 --> 00:22:08.723 Course as part of our essential public speaking and exercises that specifically go into training you how to maintain eye contact with an audience. 00:22:09.273 --> 00:22:12.753 So you can go into as much detail as you want with that if you're the other end. 00:22:12.813 --> 00:22:14.378 I mentioned before, we have people that have. 00:22:15.333 --> 00:22:17.193 Trained for TED Talks using the app. 00:22:17.403 --> 00:22:19.593 They kind of know what they're doing, they just wanna practice it. 00:22:19.593 --> 00:22:23.253 They might turn all those aids and help off and just go for it. 00:22:23.423 --> 00:22:28.523 And have, you know, as many distractions and stuff for up as they can, their microphone, having feedback. 00:22:28.913 --> 00:22:31.583 I mean, you can get the audience to heckle you if you really want to. 00:22:31.583 --> 00:22:36.833 I know we had to tone that down a lot from when we first in first implemented it because the AI was a little bit mean. 00:22:37.313 --> 00:22:40.343 But yeah, so I think that's one thing that has really. 00:22:41.093 --> 00:22:41.903 Important. 00:22:42.023 --> 00:22:44.753 And we're taking a lot of the best techniques from traditional learning. 00:22:45.203 --> 00:22:57.493 Again, trying to overcome the shortfalls that businesses have, which are typically around flexibility, scaling workforces are getting a lot more remote and distributed and people have different learning needs. 00:22:58.043 --> 00:22:59.033 And so to replace. 00:23:00.248 --> 00:23:15.998 An annual management training where you've gotta go and do a few awkward role plays once a year or even enhance something like that with consistent tool that can provide practice can have a really clear learning structure and a learning path and can adapt to your needs is really important. 00:23:15.998 --> 00:23:18.998 And an overall company's a really responding and I think. 00:23:19.913 --> 00:23:28.073 You'll probably know better than anyone that, like the cool factor of VR gets you through the door and it gets people interested, but if it doesn't give you results, people aren't gonna keep using it. 00:23:28.643 --> 00:23:46.013 And we've now seen organizations sticking with it and not only sticking with it, but scaling into the second and third, fourth years of using virtual speech and moving into different parts of the business and finding new things that, because the results tend to be speaking for themselves and and people are genuinely improving with every. 00:23:46.418 --> 00:23:49.838 Every session, just like you, you said with the sort of digital backpack project. 00:23:51.718 --> 00:23:52.528 Shannon Putman: Absolutely. 00:23:52.648 --> 00:24:01.378 And it's good to know because, you know, the whole thing that we talk about with education is preparing our students for life after school, preparing for life after school, no matter what that is. 00:24:01.378 --> 00:24:15.658 And so having the ability to customize, you know, the environment and what you need, you know, so maybe for somebody, their big thing is to go into a bank and open up a checking account and they've never done that. 00:24:15.658 --> 00:24:17.788 So they wanna practice that so they can do that. 00:24:18.038 --> 00:24:19.418 And the ability to. 00:24:19.973 --> 00:24:24.183 To do that through virtual speech is unique and incredibly exciting. 00:24:24.633 --> 00:24:31.103 And so, as we're, you know, coming towards the end, I, is there anything that you know, you. 00:24:31.623 --> 00:24:41.983 Any advice that you have for any educators that are, you know, looking to get into vr, EE especially along public speaking and you know, those soft skills as we call 'em. 00:24:41.983 --> 00:24:44.753 I think they've got a new term now but I'm gonna call it soft 00:24:45.008 --> 00:24:51.278 Chris: Yeah, I know, yeah, I know that everyone's definition of soft and professional skills and all those things are very, like, very, quite a lot. 00:24:51.288 --> 00:24:57.708 And yeah, we, I tend to kind of say if it involves speaking to or at people, we've probably got it covered. 00:24:57.708 --> 00:24:58.718 Like, we've been there too. 00:24:58.718 --> 00:25:01.058 But yeah, I think if you are looking to. 00:25:01.808 --> 00:25:08.128 Start with this sort of technology, like one don't be scared about the impact you can have in replacing. 00:25:08.128 --> 00:25:24.508 'cause I think a lot of the time it's there to enhance or augment what you're doing already and kind of overcome some of the barriers that there are to delivering a service like that to hundreds of students, to people working in different locations, to people of all different learning needs and that kind of stuff on there. 00:25:25.078 --> 00:25:26.758 But really I think, and this is. 00:25:27.328 --> 00:25:37.778 You know, when we think about other immersive companies and like how they can sort of succeed on there, and then you sort of flip that and look for the teaching stuff is they'll need to see a return on their investment. 00:25:37.778 --> 00:25:47.938 Like as, as mercenary as that poss probably sounds, if you're gonna invest a lot of money it's cheaper and more accessible than it's kind of ever been, but it's still a lot of money. 00:25:47.988 --> 00:25:48.663 You know, we have. 00:25:49.863 --> 00:25:52.623 Very heavy discounts and stuff for education and those kind of things as well. 00:25:52.623 --> 00:25:55.083 But it's still an investment, especially when you're looking at it at scale. 00:25:55.743 --> 00:25:57.363 It needs to be sort of like worth that. 00:25:57.363 --> 00:26:01.923 And I think one thing I would say is is try it try it with students. 00:26:01.923 --> 00:26:06.153 Run a pilot, figure out what it is you want to see from that as well. 00:26:06.513 --> 00:26:09.993 And assess it kind of on its own merits We. 00:26:10.543 --> 00:26:16.883 We are seeing people and especially educators and those kind of things, trying to assess this technology now, and loads of people are more and more open to it. 00:26:17.483 --> 00:26:21.953 When I first joined virtual speech, the conversation was always trying to persuade people to use vr. 00:26:22.283 --> 00:26:24.863 Now, it's now people are more open to it. 00:26:25.283 --> 00:26:30.323 People such as yourself and your consulting help a lot more with that and making it accessible to people for sure. 00:26:30.373 --> 00:26:33.323 And we, so we appreciate you guys sort of flying the flag for that. 00:26:33.833 --> 00:26:34.133 But. 00:26:34.633 --> 00:26:40.813 It's still difficult to I guess implement on its own and people don't know how to assess it, I guess, properly. 00:26:40.813 --> 00:26:43.033 So what are you actually, what's the problem you're hoping to achieve? 00:26:43.563 --> 00:26:49.623 And don't necessarily compare it on an implementation level and stuff to typical software or existing learning methods. 00:26:49.653 --> 00:26:51.153 'cause it's this whole own thing. 00:26:51.623 --> 00:26:54.473 And so I think if you go in open-minded with some kind of. 00:26:54.878 --> 00:27:06.748 Pilot and some way to, and some sort of goal, I guess, of what you're trying to achieve within that, whether that's an improvement in public speaking scores or satisfaction of students or confidence levels or just engagement, whatever it is. 00:27:06.748 --> 00:27:06.808 Um. 00:27:07.318 --> 00:27:08.698 And see if it works and prove that. 00:27:08.698 --> 00:27:10.648 And then I guess have a goal to scale it. 00:27:10.648 --> 00:27:13.348 I know that's not always easy with funding and those kind of things too. 00:27:13.348 --> 00:27:16.558 That's a whole different ballgame conversation, which we could talk about for a long time, I'm sure. 00:27:16.558 --> 00:27:22.058 But yeah, that would be my advice is try it, see what you wanna do, and then figure out how it can scale. 00:27:22.118 --> 00:27:23.858 'cause that's where the beauty of it comes in, I think. 00:27:25.283 --> 00:27:29.633 Shannon Putman: Wonderful advice right there and to kind of add onto it as well. 00:27:29.633 --> 00:27:38.273 Last little note, there are a bunch of lessons and materials that students can do outside of the headset with virtual speech as well, correct? 00:27:38.708 --> 00:27:39.038 Chris: Yeah. 00:27:39.098 --> 00:27:39.398 Yeah. 00:27:39.398 --> 00:27:44.378 So, now actually pretty much everything you can do in a headset you can do outside of a headset now. 00:27:44.378 --> 00:27:47.118 So, we always built for VR and we have now. 00:27:47.658 --> 00:27:53.888 So we still develop for VR first, but we have a full web version full of the all of the experiences, role play public speaking. 00:27:54.458 --> 00:28:01.508 You'll lose an element of the immersiveness of that, but there is still a huge amount of value and scalability that can then be had. 00:28:01.748 --> 00:28:04.208 We hear it a lot from an accessibility point of view as well. 00:28:04.558 --> 00:28:09.138 So while we'd always recommend they go sort of hand in hand then yes, you can just do it through a web browser. 00:28:09.548 --> 00:28:12.038 Also, I, you know, I say about the sort of trying things out. 00:28:12.498 --> 00:28:17.538 We still, especially if you maybe have a headset as an educator, there is still a free version of virtual speech. 00:28:17.538 --> 00:28:18.828 It's, you know, it's stripped back. 00:28:18.828 --> 00:28:24.078 There's a few things missing, but like, and there's free versions of a lot of other apps and things out there as well. 00:28:24.078 --> 00:28:28.293 Like, just download it, give it a go and try these things. 00:28:28.623 --> 00:28:34.083 So yeah, don't, yeah, don't let those things scare you about scaling and those sorts of stuff too. 00:28:34.143 --> 00:28:38.643 We we have thought of that and we've come across it quite a lot and helped a lot of universities and companies scale it out. 00:28:39.968 --> 00:28:40.598 Shannon Putman: Awesome. 00:28:41.228 --> 00:28:46.688 And I'm going to obviously put all the info and all the links and all that great stuff. 00:28:46.718 --> 00:28:56.508 But if anybody wanted to you know, learn more about virtual speech and anything like that, besides obviously talking to Ment XR Consulting what would you suggest they do? 00:28:56.913 --> 00:28:57.633 Chris: Yeah, of course. 00:28:57.633 --> 00:29:03.453 So yeah, as I said, you know, you know, as, as good as any of us, so they can definitely chat to yourself about these things. 00:29:03.453 --> 00:29:08.763 But otherwise we are on all the sort of socials and stuff as virtual speech, virtual speech.com. 00:29:08.913 --> 00:29:15.853 Has a lot of resources you know, and we've actually got a an ebook that's just come out on things like VR and generative AI for learning. 00:29:15.853 --> 00:29:25.003 So those sorts of resources there, like if you're brand new to these worlds and wanna know what impact it can have, like those, there's free resources that we've put out there for those kind of things. 00:29:25.333 --> 00:29:26.683 I'm always happy to speak. 00:29:26.683 --> 00:29:31.573 You can find me on LinkedIn and things, or just chris@virtualspeech.com and always happy to. 00:29:31.943 --> 00:29:36.343 Show you or connect you to some of our team that can show you through these things and and answer any questions you've got as well. 00:29:36.343 --> 00:29:39.503 So, but definitely check out some of the resources we've got on our website. 00:29:40.678 --> 00:29:41.338 Shannon Putman: Beautiful. 00:29:41.398 --> 00:29:41.848 Thank you. 00:29:41.848 --> 00:29:42.808 And they mean that too. 00:29:42.808 --> 00:29:44.458 They've always been nothing but helpful. 00:29:44.458 --> 00:29:49.543 I'll randomly message them and you guys always are right on it and get back. 00:29:49.543 --> 00:29:54.143 And sometimes my, I have the randomest questions and they've always been able to answer them. 00:29:54.143 --> 00:29:56.075 So that's a tate to you for sure. 00:29:56.703 --> 00:29:57.663 Chris: I appreciate that. 00:29:57.663 --> 00:29:59.993 Yeah, we've there's no, no stupid questions. 00:29:59.993 --> 00:30:03.113 We always say someone's gonna prove me wrong one day, but yeah, no stupid questions. 00:30:04.238 --> 00:30:04.838 Shannon Putman: All right. 00:30:04.838 --> 00:30:06.998 Well, Chris, this has been absolutely fantastic. 00:30:07.028 --> 00:30:08.288 I've had a wonderful time. 00:30:08.288 --> 00:30:09.728 I can't thank you enough 00:30:09.953 --> 00:30:10.373 Chris: Thank 00:30:10.448 --> 00:30:13.373 Shannon Putman: for joining me and gracing the pop. 00:30:13.373 --> 00:30:17.923 And you know, I know it sounds like you're gonna get away without the closing countdown, but you are not. 00:30:17.973 --> 00:30:26.753 And so as we wrap up, I'm gonna ask you, okay, if you could live in three fictional places. 00:30:27.608 --> 00:30:28.778 Where would they be? 00:30:29.228 --> 00:30:36.998 And it can be from literature, it can be from entertainment, it can be from Greek mythology, whatever. 00:30:36.998 --> 00:30:39.383 What three fictional places would you live? 00:30:40.093 --> 00:30:44.563 Chris: Wow, this is the yeah, this is a great, like VR question, isn't it? 00:30:44.563 --> 00:30:48.313 Like everyone always says that you can go to any world, you can do any of these things. 00:30:48.683 --> 00:30:49.943 Three fictional places. 00:30:49.973 --> 00:30:52.973 Greek mythology, when you said that, I was immediately like, that would be really cool. 00:30:52.973 --> 00:30:57.233 But I don't think I'd be in any way important enough to, for that just to not be brutal. 00:30:57.283 --> 00:30:58.153 So I'm 00:30:58.358 --> 00:31:01.418 Shannon Putman: That's a key factor though, when thinking about, you know. 00:31:01.548 --> 00:31:01.788 Chris: Yeah. 00:31:01.788 --> 00:31:05.998 What would, as a, probably a peasant in these times, what would I benefit from? 00:31:06.048 --> 00:31:09.598 So I'll go purely, probably just fictional and probably showcase my. 00:31:10.963 --> 00:31:21.743 Or like my nerdy fantasies from when I was younger, I'd like give the the Star Wars universe a go the Pokemon Universe a go and to live in a world where like Marvel superheros are real. 00:31:22.043 --> 00:31:25.613 Just all those things that you are younger and you go, ah, I wish that stuff was real. 00:31:25.643 --> 00:31:32.783 Again, I probably haven't thought it through 'cause I wouldn't be a Jedi or I'd probably, you know, get killed by a super villain or something. 00:31:32.813 --> 00:31:35.693 But yeah, that would make 12-year-old me very happy. 00:31:35.693 --> 00:31:36.683 Any of those, I think. 00:31:37.478 --> 00:31:38.828 Shannon Putman: And I think you're allowed to dream. 00:31:38.828 --> 00:31:40.778 So you wouldn't necessarily be a peasant. 00:31:40.778 --> 00:31:41.978 You could be one of those Greek 00:31:42.218 --> 00:31:44.738 Chris: Yeah, I should, yeah, I should back myself, I think. 00:31:44.798 --> 00:31:46.538 Shannon Putman: Yeah, exactly. 00:31:47.138 --> 00:31:48.068 Absolutely. 00:31:48.158 --> 00:31:49.378 I always said never land. 00:31:49.378 --> 00:31:50.608 'cause I never wanted to grow up. 00:31:50.728 --> 00:31:51.448 Chris: yeah. 00:31:51.608 --> 00:31:52.958 That's a state of mind though, isn't it? 00:31:52.958 --> 00:31:56.318 Growing up you get, you can get older, but you don't have to grow up, isn't it? 00:31:56.818 --> 00:31:56.821 That's the one. 00:31:57.058 --> 00:31:57.628 Shannon Putman: what they say. 00:31:57.628 --> 00:32:01.468 But man, Peter Pan didn't have to worry about taxes and health insurance and that kinda 00:32:01.743 --> 00:32:02.033 Chris: Yeah. 00:32:02.668 --> 00:32:02.878 Yeah. 00:32:02.878 --> 00:32:05.368 Peter Pan didn't have this many grays that I've got either like, 00:32:07.618 --> 00:32:07.968 Shannon Putman: Shees. 00:32:08.143 --> 00:32:09.193 I think he had it right. 00:32:09.193 --> 00:32:09.703 Man. 00:32:09.883 --> 00:32:10.033 Jeez. 00:32:10.563 --> 00:32:11.728 Chris: yeah, that's a good one. 00:32:11.813 --> 00:32:13.853 Shannon Putman: But no, Chris, seriously, this was fantastic. 00:32:13.853 --> 00:32:14.723 Thank you so much. 00:32:14.783 --> 00:32:23.023 I've had a great time and I cannot wait for more people to be trying virtual speech and and just, you know, becoming great communicators, which is something we need. 00:32:23.248 --> 00:32:36.843 Chris: Yeah, no, thank you so much for having me on and giving me a chance to talk about it and yeah, we're really excited by what people are doing and it, everything that we're doing so far is being guided by just what people are trying in it and feedback we get, and it's sort of grown beyond what we'd ever sort of thought. 00:32:36.843 --> 00:32:38.363 So, yeah, keep it coming, everyone. 00:32:38.868 --> 00:32:39.638 Shannon Putman: Absolutely. 00:32:39.688 --> 00:32:42.718 Virtual speech, Putman Consulting stamp of approval. 00:32:42.718 --> 00:32:43.378 That is for sure. 00:32:44.473 --> 00:32:44.953 Chris: Nice. 00:32:44.953 --> 00:32:45.643 I appreciate 00:32:45.688 --> 00:32:49.408 Shannon Putman: engage You guys are the two softwares that I've been using the longest, so that's 00:32:49.453 --> 00:32:50.023 Chris: Amazing. 00:32:50.293 --> 00:32:53.093 Yeah, no, we appreciate your the amount of time you've been using it. 00:32:53.093 --> 00:32:54.203 So yeah. 00:32:54.293 --> 00:32:54.953 Thank you so much. 00:32:55.388 --> 00:32:55.988 Shannon Putman: Thank you. 00:32:56.723 --> 00:32:56.753 Chris: Okay.