Michael Riley: Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a
few crusty sign guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit.
Conversations and advice on pricing, sales, marketing,
workflow, growth, and more.
Your listening to The Better Sign Shop podcast With your hosts, Peter COIs,
Michael Reilly and Bryant Gillespie.
Bryant Gillespie: Before we jump into the episode, I'd like to give a shout
out to our sponsor, GCI Digital Imaging Grand Format Printer to the Trade.
We talk a lot about outsourcing on the podcast and the importance of.
Good partners and gci Digital Imaging is a good partner to have owner TJ
Bak and his team focus on providing killer customer service just the
way grandmother used to make it.
If you're interested in learning their approach to business, hop
back into the archives to episode nine where the guys and I interview
TJ about customer experience.
So if you're looking for a high quality trade printer for banners, wraps,
and other printed graphics that your customers throw at you, check out
GCI Digital imaging@printgci.com.
All right, guys.
Welcome to the next edition of the Better Sign Shop podcast.
As always, I've got my colleagues, Peter, he's not here today.
We've got the man himself, the Sign Design Samurai.
The Sign, chimi Changa, Mike Riley.
Happy New Year.
I feel like we've got the new year, new nickname thing
kind of on the horizon here.
Michael Riley: See, I was hoping we'd leave the nickname in
2022, but I see it's, was there
Bryant Gillespie: at the end of the new year, were there, was there
one that you really liked that we could stick with or there was not?
I feel like this, I feel like the search continues.
Like the search continues.
I saw somebody post on our YouTube channel the other day, like on
the very first or second episode.
They were like, oh, hey, I really like sign Shop Spock.
And I don't know if we need to revisit that one or not.
Yeah.
Maybe when we get some more guests we can, I, I think we need to write that
into the, the guide for our guests.
Like come prepared with five nickname ideas for Mike.
I think
Michael Riley: that's a great idea.
Yeah.
I think that needs to be like a, a regular segment on the podcast.
It's like a rapid fire.
Give Mike a nickname.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Like, I'm open to getting roasted as well.
I know that came up a couple calls ago if I, if you wanna take
some heat off yourself there.
Michael Riley: Ah, ah, yeah, you do need a nickname too.
I, I think you've kind of dodged that bullet.
I'm not sure how that happened.
I guess being the host, you can steer the conversation wherever you want, can't you?
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, yeah.
When it's, when it's your name on the dotted line, I guess
you just kind of skate that.
Michael Riley: I don't know.
Yeah.
Congratulations.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
So what's new with you in the new year, my man?
Michael Riley: Oh, you know, just trying to survive.
Had a great holiday and, uh, a nice, uh, nice new year and, um, made a
bunch of New Year's resolutions.
I've already broken, like everybody has, I'm sure.
Or what do we, two weeks into the new year here and, uh, not one is still standing
on, on two legs, so, um, do you care to share one, like what was Yeah, yeah.
No, totally.
Yeah.
I, I was definitely gonna eat healthier this year.
That was the plan, but I had What happened there?
Pizza from Taco Bell last night at 1:00 AM.
We're like the fifth time this year.
So we're only
Bryant Gillespie: 12 days into the year.
I, I mean, if we were gonna stick with one nickname, like the Burrito Chi Chung,
like the sign shop, Mexican Food King.
I don't, you know, I don't know how you can buy
Michael Riley: Mike's two Loves of Taco Bell and Signage.
Bryant Gillespie: Signage.
I don't, I don't know.
Yeah.
Maybe there's like a sign coordinator position that
you like Taco Bell Corporate.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
I don't know.
There you go.
God, that'd be my dream job.
Designing Taco Bell signs.
Holy shit.
There you go.
I mean, my head would explode.
Uh, yes.
Taco
Bryant Gillespie: Bell, when you do the next store rebrand,
call this guy hit me up.
He, he does sign design for a living.
Yeah.
Michael Riley: So what were the other ones?
And I'll work for burritos.
Um, gosh, let's see.
Well, I was, I, I wanted to get in better shape.
I, I said I was gonna start going for a walk every day after dinner, but
when you eat a Mexican pizza at 1:00 AM it's hard to go for a walk after that.
So that resolution has just kind of like, also fallen by the wayside.
Those are the major ones, but I think those are probably everybody's, and
everybody can relate to that a little bit.
I've got a few business related ones, you know, trying to put a little more
focus and effort into, you know, some marketing this year and social media
need to bring on an assistant to help me with some, some office tasks.
So those are some, some resolutions.
I haven't even had a chance yet to like completely screw up and fall off the
horse on, but one of these days I will.
Bryant Gillespie: So it's, it's interesting, like you, you serve sign
shops with your design work, but on the market, you know, like we've talked
about the importance of marketing yet, You basically do no marketing
for your signed design business,
Michael Riley: It's true.
I am, I, I'm definitely a, um, not, not a practitioner of what I preach, I guess.
Um, yeah, I do a little bit of marketing and, and I did put a little bit of
effort into SEO in my website early last year, which definitely paid off.
I mean, I get, I, I, I'm in such a weird niche market.
I mean, I, I, there's not a large pool of potential clients out there for me anyway.
There's only a handful of people that will, you know, really need
my services around the country.
So it's not like I'm getting, you know, 50 inquiries a day off of my website.
But I do get a decent amount of business off of it from that.
And, and, you know, I ranked generally number one or fairly high
up in Google results when you search for terms surrounding what I do.
So that, I guess that counts as marketing.
Right.
And, you know, I occasionally throw a post up on my Facebook page for the
business, but I think the last one I did was like in August or something.
So , I need to.
You know, we, we've been so busy that it's, yeah, it's so, and I, I
think that's probably something that every small business owner, you know,
it's a trap that we all fall into.
Like, he gets so busy.
We've talked about this on the marketing podcast episode we did.
Like, it's just so easy to put that marketing stuff on the back
orderer, because I'm busy right now.
I don't really need any more clients, therefore, I'm not really gonna
dedicate any brain power to it.
And that's, that's where my New Year's resolution comes in.
Because obviously, you know, if you only market when you're slow and
you need the work, then you're kind of shooting yourself on the foot.
And, and you know, I guess I've turned off the faucet.
I think that was the, the term that Peter used on episode is don't, you
know, don't turn off the faucet.
Don't turn off the faucet.
Yeah.
So that's one of the big things this year.
Bryant Gillespie: I'm sure all of our listeners can relate to that.
Like, I think every, almost every shop owner that we've ever talked to, like
marketing, you say marketing and they.
Like, oh, are we doing marketing?
Like, yeah.
Yeah.
Beyond the basics of having like a decent website, I feel like there's
a lot of shops out there that aren't doing any marketing at all.
So if that's on your resolution list for your business, don't let that slip.
What we would both suggest, I, I'm gonna speak for both of us here, is you're
probably not gonna have the time to do it.
Find somebody who can do it for you, outsource it, whether that's an agency
or just an individual freelancer.
Now is a good time to start that and start as small as you need to.
Uh, that's the other big thing.
You don't have to jump into like a $5,000 retainer to have
somebody do your marketing monthly.
Just start with one small piece, you know, maybe a couple hundred
Michael Riley: bucks.
Yeah.
Right.
Or hire somebody to do your social media for you or something.
You know, I, I mentioned this in the the marketing podcast episode, but
at my shop, when I actually still own the sign company and not just.
Designer, same boat.
Like, like it was so hard to ever do any marketing in-house.
And, and it, it's hard I think for sign shop owners to accept
and admit to themselves that we're not actually marketers.
We're, you know, making signs is not the same thing as marketing.
So it's, it's kind of one of those things where we feel compelled to
try and do in-house ourselves because we think we should be able to do it.
But the reality is, it's, it's probably not our strong suit.
And hiring a professional to do that is, is usually gonna
pay pay off in the long run.
We hired an outside marketing agency to handle a lot of our marketing efforts and,
and man, was that ever a great investment?
I mean, it, it really, really paid off big time, uh, for doing that.
So I, I always recommend everybody, just don't even try to do it in-house.
Get it off of your plate.
Hire somebody you trust and you know that you can afford and, and
empower them to, you know, kind of take your brand and run with it.
Oh, it'll come back to you for sure.
I say that as I don't, don't do that myself anymore.
Bryant Gillespie: Well, You're gonna fix
Michael Riley: that, right?
Totally.
So what about you?
Bryant Gillespie: How, how are you starting out the year there's
a wedding for that one man?
All right.
So I, I'm gonna date myself a little bit, but six or eight, 10 years ago,
uh, before my wife and I got together, I was really heavy into power lifting.
Uh, I have since in the last two weeks, thanks to some
encouragement from my brother-in-law tried to get back into this.
So it's been an interesting adventure to say the least.
, like before I quit, I was, uh, I, I don't know the exact numbers and
I, I'll just throw some out there.
I don't, I'm sure there's people that , if, if you do lift in the
audience, don't take me at face value here, because my memory from
7, 8, 10 years ago is very fuzzy.
But you know, I think if my records like personal records at the time were
like three, maybe like 3 85 on the squat and like 4 35 on the deadlift.
So not super heavy.
Nothing to be ashamed about though.
But I started back, I'm like two weeks in at this point and my
head still is back in that place.
But as, as you've experienced like 10 years on your body
is not with you anymore.
So I, uh, like I've been extremely sore, but also just like extremely
frustrated mentally with just where I'm at because there's kids that weigh,
I, I don't know, probably 50 pounds less than me that are throwing up like
50, a hundred pounds more than me when I look across the gym at this point.
Michael Riley: And that's how Beret got hurt.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, the, the next episode I will be wearing like
a sling or a cast or something.
, a
Michael Riley: back brace or something.
Yeah, no, that's welcome to, I guess we'll call it middle age.
I'm not gonna call you an old man yet cause you haven't crossed the 40 threshold
like me, but yeah, , it sucks, doesn't it?
Yeah, it's hard.
I used to, I, I mean I know exactly how that is.
I, I used to exercise and lift and uh, I was, I was big into CrossFit for,
for years cuz I, I got really going ho when I was right around 30 and
decided I'm gonna join a rugby team.
A rugby league.
And, um, I got in pretty good shape.
I was, I was in pretty good shape.
I, I wasn't quite throwing up the numbers that you were, I wasn't really
quite just heavy power lifting as much as more like, you know, training.
But then I actually like went to a rugby game and was so scared.
Bryant Gillespie: Like what?
Yeah, that's uh, that's definitely one of those before kids things.
. Yeah,
Michael Riley: like, like 10 minutes into the game, like
several people had lost teeth in their, you know, blood everywhere.
, like it was, I, I was shocked at how like, like I knew Violet.
It was a, it was a violent, rough sport, but Wow.
Yeah.
So that's kind of when I'm like, okay, maybe this isn't for me.
And I slowed down on the, the exercising and working out a little bit and yeah.
And then actually just over between Christmas and New Year's, then I decided
to carry a toilet up my stairs to my upstairs bathroom cuz I'm putting in
a toilet in and it, I, I had to, I had to stop for the rest of the day.
Like, I, I just lifting that toilet and carrying upstairs nearly killed me.
And I was like, I was done.
That was it.
So yeah, getting old and lifting heavy things, they don't really go
hand in hand and it sneaks up on you.
So don't, don't overdo it.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a the yourself biggest thing.
Uh, just like we, we talked about just like on marketing just a minute ago,
you gotta start small , start slow
So, hey, I, I'm trying to, uh, be mindful of that.
Definitely.
My wife is helpful as well.
Uh, she's very good at nagging me into going to the gym, so
that's, that's been helpful.
Yeah, I've got like a, my brother-in-law hooked me up with this four day a
week program for the next six weeks.
I'll just give a shout out to those guys.
He's, uh, if you're into, if you like heavy metal and you like lifting weights,
look at, uh, def comes lifting.com.
It's, um, kind of their brand.
He's one of the signature athletes or sponsored athletes, I guess you could say.
You know, he just did a meet back in December where he set
like some state records as an am.
Against non amputees.
That's pretty cool.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Pulling this up right now.
Yeah, definitely.
Pretty.
Yeah, I think they're, the tagline is Fitness for the
Misfits or something like that.
I think so.
uh, cool company.
Cool dude.
Yeah.
That's pretty cool.
Frank, his, uh, his name on there is Franken, Jan . It's, it, clearly they've
got some good nicknames going on.
Maybe we could take a page
Michael Riley: out of their, Yeah, we need to study their, their approach there.
Well, that's awesome.
Good luck.
I hope that you, a, don't hurt yourself and b, you know, get back into the groove
and, and, uh, see some gains there.
I remember, like I've, I've, my whole life, I've started
and stopped going to the gym.
I've, you know, I've been a perpetual gym starter.
My, you know, my entire adult life.
And man, like the first two weeks after you're back to the gym and
you're especially like the day or two after like a heavy squat day,
standing up off the toilet in the morning, , it's like the worst.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Yeah.
So I like, I I, I'll say one more thing and then we'll get into like the actual
topic today, but the, like before, probably like four or six weeks ago before
I started getting into this, I went to the gym with my brother-in-law and, uh, you
know, we've always been very competitive with each other in the past, but, but
like the friendly, competitive spirit.
Um, so I got in the gym, you know, I'm watching him lift and
I was like, okay, like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna squat with you.
And I did the best I could, and it, like, it definitely overdid and I,
like, I could not walk for like three freaking, like, could not get up
and down the stairs like physically.
Mm-hmm.
. And like, I was texting him and he was just laughing at me the whole time, man.
Like, uh, like, Hey, thanks for coming.
Thanks for playing
. Michael Riley: Yeah.
No, it's that, that's the worst it go.
It's weird.
It goes away pretty quickly.
But like the first one too is just, it's brutal.
Oh man.
It's bad.
I don't envy you.
Well, good luck.
So I gotta, gotta shake
Bryant Gillespie: off the, the cobwebs, but, uh, so that leads us
into the, the topic of today, I think I was working title for this one was
like tech, tech that saves you time.
But, um, one of the topics, um, that I've seen come up in again
and again this time of year over the last 7, 10, 15 years that.
I've been in this industry is systems processes.
I think I wanna touch a little on shop management software today because we've
got the shop management software series that should be coming out pretty soon.
I don't know how you feel about that, Mike.
Uh,
Michael Riley: let's do it . That's a, that's a subject that's
near and dear to my heart.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Give us, give us your, what's your shop management
software origin story like where did you guys start out with your old shop?
Yeah.
And this is, this is like zooming back into the past here,
Michael Riley: but this is, this is flying way back into the past.
Um, Yeah.
Yeah.
So for, you know, like every sign shop, you know, when you're smaller and
you're starting out, everything's paper, everything's in your head, and you don't
really have any good systems or processes.
But as we grew, obviously, like everybody does, they figure out that
they need figured out we needed something better than paper work orders, you
know, dry erase marker board, right?
Systems like that, that are, that are that manual, it's, it's a
recipe for losing track of things.
Things are gonna fall through the cracks.
I mean, it's just, and it's not really anybody's fault.
You can't blame anyone particularly human on that.
It's just, it's just the nature of the business.
When you're busy and you're chasing paper, you're gonna lose stuff.
So we, you know, looked at everything under the sun and, and, and around that
time was right when, when Sein Box first came, became available on the market and,
um, demoed it with our buddy Kevin, and.
I thought it was amazing.
I mean, it was like a game changer for, for us.
Se Box was originally made for the Sign Ramma franchise, and then eventually they,
you know, they made some tweak to it and released it wide to, to any sign shop.
And, uh, I was, I was like number, customer number, like two or three
on Seine Box when it came out.
I mean, was long time ago and it was, it was, it was something
for sure when it came out.
I mean it's, it's, it's
Bryant Gillespie: evolved quite a bit when it was Kevin.
Kevin basically shyed both of us then at that point.
I know, cause I was, I was like customer number four or five on Shop Box
Michael Riley: Yeah.
And I, I found Kevin on a post on Signs 1 0 1 about it actually to,
I don't know if that's how you discovered him or not, but Yeah.
Yeah.
A hundred percent it was, yeah, we can, it all goes back to Signs 1 0 1.
Yeah, so we, you know, we were with Sein Box for a long time and it was, it
was definitely, um, an amazing program.
When I, when I sold the business, we were still using SE Box, shop
Box said actually Shop Box wasn't.
A thing yet it, it, it was still sign box.
They hadn't evolved it over in the shop box yet.
So that's what we used.
And uh, it was, it was great.
I mean, it, any, any program like that, I mean, it doesn't matter what it is,
you know, all all of these programs have strengthened weaknesses, but
having something moving into any sort of system like that is better than not.
You know, it's, it's something that I recommend every shop to,
even if you're a one man operation, like get something cuz it's gonna
change your life for the better.
It just, it's a guarantee.
Bryant Gillespie: I, I totally agree with you.
I think if Peter were here, he would say the same thing, that in this day
and age, um, especially with the, like the current economic climate,
you know, where everybody's kind of uncertain what's, what's going to happen.
It could certainly seem like a big expense of, uh, a big investment.
We'll say.
I won't say an expense because it's definitely in the investment column.
And, and some of them are fairly cheap that are out there.
You could go with a non-industry specific software that will be even
cheaper and you try to tie stuff together, but most of the investment
is on the time side of things there.
But it is 100% probably one of the smartest investments
you'll make in your business.
Mm-hmm.
. Michael Riley: And that's, that's like, that's a really important
topic or, or point I think that needs to be beaten like a dead horse a
little bit, is it is an investment.
It's not an expense.
And, you know, you and I have been through, I'll say the ringer with,
with these programs and we've talked to a lot of people who.
Their mentality about it is an expense, you know, that's why they see it.
They see it as a, it's gonna cost them money and they drag their feet and
they, you know, oh, you know, 3 99 a month or $500 a month or whatever,
whatever the cost for whatever app you're looking at is, they just,
you know, they immediately shut down when they hear a price like that.
Even a small one man shop, I mean, it's, there's no denying that $500 a
month for, for a one man operation.
It's not inexpensive.
Right.
It's, but it only takes one lost order that you've gotta eat per month to
more than cover that The efficiency that these, these programs create for
your shop is definitely, it's, it's next level, and, and that's, that's
where you, you make that money up, that's where it becomes an investment.
I mean, you're, you're, you're going on, you're gonna make that money back multiple
times over every month and just the amount of time that you save, not tearing the off
spart trying to find a work order that's slipped between two desks or something.
You know?
I mean, it's, it's absolutely an investment in, in time and
efficiency that, that will pay back.
You know, many times over I, and I and I, I always cringe when everybody,
anybody, you know, drags their feet on it based on price alone.
And, and they say, ah, that's just too much money for me to spend every month.
You gotta spend money to make money, guys.
Bryant Gillespie: We heard that argument a lot.
Yeah.
Like, uh, I always, I do, like I heard you say, spend money to make money.
I hate that saying, but in this case, it's, it's true.
Michael Riley: It's definitely true.
In this case, I, yeah, I, I agree.
I, I don't like it , but like, sometimes it needs to be said though.
And this is one of those cases where I, it's, it's money well spent for sure.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
So the next thing that I want to say is, if you're in this mode right now, you're
looking for shop management software, like the, the biggest thing that I could tell
you is you're not going to find a perfect.
So, uh, at this point in my career, I, I can't tell you how many thousands
of hours I've invested into this specific category of software, both
in the shop previously, you know, I've spent thousands and thousands of hours
like scouring the internet before.
These things were a little more visible than they are now.
Uh, doing demos with sales reps on everything from web to print, to
mis, you know, it was all, it was like the wild, wild west kind of
10 years ago of like anybody was calling themselves anything and you
had to no screenshots on the website.
You had to sit through demos and endure hour long conversations
with sales reps before you can even get a look at the product.
So it's exactly
Michael Riley: the same as it is
Bryant Gillespie: in in some aspects.
Yeah, I've, I've always hated that part of no screenshots, but there to emphasize
there is no one perfect solution and to, to get, to invest too much time in this
is not going to pay you back in returns.
So yeah, , do your due diligence, definitely, uh, look at your
available options out there.
You know, we're gonna cover those in our shop management series, but, you
know, once you get to pick one that's good enough and get going with it,
and don't delay trying to wait for the perfect system or, or it having
the perfect functionality, you know, figure out what it is your, your core
set of things that you need for your shop are, and a lot of those should
be shared across most of the audience.
Uh, but figure out what those are, which solution best fits that and.
Go for it.
Pull the trigger.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
Uh, that's a, that's another really good point.
I mean, that's, it's something that , I think you and I have battled quite,
quite extensively in a former life.
Is, is the argument, oh, well this isn't exactly the way we do things.
Uh, this isn't ex this isn't quite how I, I would do it.
I mean, I've seen people cancel shop box because they don't like
the format of the invoices, right?
Like, everything else is great and it's making a huge improvement
in their, their business.
But, eh, this doesn't look the way I want it to look.
Therefore, this isn't a good product.
And we're talking about off the shelf canned programs that aren't
custom built to your business.
And, and, and there are no two sign shops.
I can say this with a hundred percent absolute certainty because I've been
in hundreds of sign shops and worked with hundreds more owners in my life.
There are no two sign shops on the planet that do things exactly the same way.
There's a lot of similar overlap and everybody's kind of
working towards the same goal.
But from a process standpoint, from an operation standpoint, every sign shop's
gonna operate a little bit differently.
And when you're looking at off-the-shelf software that wasn't customized
to your shop, you're going to have to make some concessions to it.
You're going to have to bend the way you operate a little bit to make a
drop and fit into that, that program.
If you don't, you're gonna have a hell of the time getting to work
and, and, you know, implemented, your employees are gonna hate it.
I mean, it, it requires flexibility and it requires you being just a little bit
on the realistic side and, and accepting that you may have to adjust, you know,
your procedures a little bit to, you know, to fall more in line with the way
whatever program you're looking at works.
And if you do that, if you're willing to do that, you'll, you'll have a much
easier time implementing it and, and it'll definitely work better for you
than if you try to bend it to your will, which doesn't really work that well.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, I, I think the best way to look at it is like a marriage.
Right.
Oh, totally.
Yeah.
Like you, you're shopping around, like you're going through this process,
like the courtship, and then you decide, hey, here's our shopping.
Shopping around.
Just shopping around.
Yeah.
Michael Riley: You put the address where people can send
hate mail at the end of the year.
, Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna have to make sure Ashley doesn't listen to this one.
Um, yeah.
But you basically, like, you make that commitment and like you can either
fight your wife on everything in your marriage, , uh, or you know, go with
the flow and definitely compromise.
Compromise.
That's it.
Secret to successful use of shop management and marriages everywhere.
It's
Michael Riley: a secret to life.
So
Bryant Gillespie: I, I think, you know what, let's take a step back
and let's just kind of like, what are the options for a shop out there of
hey, And we're, we're dead focused on improving systems and processes.
We've identified that we need a system in place to help us operate
and, and keep things on track.
What are the, are the options for our shop operating system?
Maybe that's what I would retitle this one.
You know, your shop operating system.
Yeah, there you go.
Michael Riley: Yeah, so I like that we've that name actually.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I like that too.
So we've got off the shelf industry specific software, right?
We've got two, which would be stuff like Trello or uh, monday.com, Asana, Basecamp.
How many of these would we run into over the years?
Thousands, you know, kind of your project management software, c r M software,
and you try to bolt all these things together, or you've got door number
three, the really fun and expensive door building your own solution.
Have I got all the bases covered there?
Michael Riley: I think you've got all the bases covered.
Yeah.
I mean, that's, that's pretty much, yeah, that's pretty much it.
Yeah.
Where you want, usually I, where you start.
Well, I mean, if you're, if you're moving to, if you're, if you're thinking
about this topic in general and you think, okay, I, I need something, I,
I would say chances are pretty good.
You're probably already using, or at least have tried, like some
of the generic off the shelf, you know, like you said, like Trello or
monday.com or one of one of those.
I mean, I, I, I know a lot of shops have at.
Trialed those, those apps to see if they would work.
And you know, they've, you know, they've heard other, other shops are using
Trello, so let's check it out and see.
I'd say we start there cuz those are the easiest ones to, to pick on
. Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and I, I'll be the fun fact guy, like I even built, I think I put together
like a sample Trello board once upon a time that people can download and copy.
I'm, I'm not sure if that's still on the site somewhere, but somebody
will Google it and find it.
But yeah, that's, that's where a lot of start shops start out down this journey
with Trello or, or something else.
What are your, I know you're a, you're a huge Trello fan, so like, what's
your take on this for like a sign shop?
Michael Riley: Yeah.
I, I love Trello.
Well, I love Trello on one hand, right?
Like it's, it's very limiting in some areas, but what it
does, it does really well.
I mean, if you've never seen Trello, it's just kind of a, a drag and
drop card based system, and you can, it's, it's super easy to customize.
You can put together your own job boards and kind of flow workflow
for different types of work.
I think Trello is fantastic.
If, if you haven't looked at Trello in a few years, I recommend
people take another look at it.
In the last couple years, they've made some really, really impressive
improvements to it and functionality.
It has a lot more automations built into it now.
You know, and if you gang Trello up with, you know, a few other apps, you
know, using something like, like Zappy or to string 'em all together, you,
you can, you can bang out a pretty.
A pretty functional little job management system.
The bad thing about Trello, what I don't like about it
is it's, everything's manual.
There's no automations really for like moving a job from point A to point
B, keeping things moving forward.
Um, so it's basically like, think of a, your old school paperwork order
system where that paperwork order follows the job around the shop
and you've gotta physically, you know, hand it to the next person.
Trello is very much just an electronic version of that.
You gotta manually move it to the next step.
And so for a large busy shop, I think that's where Trello or really any of these
off-the-shelf apps are gonna break down.
It's just the fact that they, they lack some of that sign industry
specific automation that we require.
But I think if anybody's looking for like a starter solution and they, they, you
know, they don't wanna spend a fortune.
And they don't want to go move to, you know, one of the, the
big industry specific programs.
I always recommend people start with Trello.
And I think you can, you can make Trello work for at least a few
years as you grow until it's ready to graduate to something bigger.
I support that
Bryant Gillespie: a hundred percent.
I, I think, hey, like, you gotta start somewhere and there's a lot of things
that you, you don't know at the beginning.
Uh, and this was, I think this was like the gospel when we were at the former
software company, , uh, that like you gotta start somewhere and you know, if you
spend a ton of time like analyzing and.
a putting together and researching and, and trying to create this perfect workflow
that we've already told you does not exist by the time you get done and you
launch that thing, the market has shifted.
Your team has shifted, like the assumptions that you had at the very
beginning, you find out were later wrong.
So Trello is, is like a super low barrier to entry.
The same with some of these other ones.
Like we could substitute Trello for monday.com or Asana, or, or,
or some of those other ones, like they all have similar functionality.
The biggest piece that I think they're missing is probably like the database
of like, Hey, here's all of our customers, here's all of our contacts.
How do all these things are late?
And.
, that's the advantage that you get with some of the other systems.
Um, right.
But, but is there, are there any other pros, cons you can think of for like
Trello or these off the shelf generic
Michael Riley: tools?
Well, I, I mean, there's a lot of cons too.
I mean, and, and that's mostly just because they're generic and off the shelf,
and so they require you as the user to essentially to build the tool yourself.
Right.
I, you sign into Trello, it's not gonna be set up for you or, or
air table or anything like that.
Like none of these apps are gonna be ready to go for any sign company.
Oh, I forgot Airtable as well.
Yeah, I love Airtable too.
I'm surprised you forgot about Air Table.
You're looking Airtable
Bryant Gillespie: Guru
, Michael Riley: uh, yeah, it's True.
Air Table.
Yeah.
If you, if you've never seen Airtable, I recommend looking at it
because it kind of like combines.
It does give you the database.
Yeah, it's a database.
You get sort of like a, an Excel style BA database, but you also get a drag
and drop card view just like Trello has.
So air table's got a lot of advantages and honestly, if I were to like, so
Trello is like the very bottom as far as like basic functionality goes.
Right.
And it's really cool and what it does, what it does better than
anything on the market for sure.
But it's very, very basic and simple where, and like you said, there's
no database attached to it, so there's no a list of your customers
or you know, any of that stuff.
I think if you wanted to step up and functionality.
Yeah, air table's like probably where I would go,
Bryant Gillespie: and I agree with that.
I, I totally forgot about Air Table.
You know, I've been neck deep in something else here lately, but , but
yeah, I've, I've made thousands of dollars doing Air Table and Zapier,
Trello, pipe Drive Consulting, so mm-hmm.
. Yeah, air Table's a great solution.
It's, it's basically a build your own app.
So if you are the tinkerer type, it's perfect for you.
You know, if you're a small shop and you've got opinionated ideas on how
you wanna run things, Airtable is nice because it does let you build it your way.
Obviously, you wanna start with like a, a good foundation there.
And, and again, I think I might have even built like a sample or something
to share maybe within our community.
I'll see if I can dig that up and include it in the show notes, just like a start.
Template for Airtable to get you some kind of base functionality out of it.
Michael Riley: Yeah, I think that'd be great.
Air table's, I, I feel like Airtable is overlooked by a lot of people.
I, I'm, and I'm not sure why that is, but really you can, you can really build
some, a pretty powerful little app, an Airtable and, and, and it, it drops
into the sign industry fairly well.
I mean, a lot of the way Airtable operates is it is kind of in line
with the, with the way the sign comp signed company would operate.
So you can really make it blow pretty well for, for average
Bryant Gillespie: sign shop.
I, I, I think their Trojan horse is like the spreadsheet view.
It's like a mm-hmm.
, it looks exactly like Excel, but it's a, a full fledged database.
Mm-hmm.
. So it enforces like, Hey, if this is a a number field, you gotta
stick a number in there and they won't let you do anything else.
Or if this is a, like a customer name, like you gotta pick from the
existing customer list type of stuff.
Yeah.
Uh, and then the other nice thing, they do have an API as well, which makes it
easy if, if you're trying to create some.
Custom wild stuff as I've done for clients in the past, uh, which is both
interesting and also comes with its own drop acts, but it does have that API
Michael Riley: available.
Yeah.
You actually, you put one together for me that was a little above my, my
pay grade as far as integrations go.
I remember that.
And I, um, you know, I had a kind of a job board sort of list of all the database for
my customers and then all my active jobs.
And then when I was done with the job, you set up an integration where I could
click a button and it would automatically send all the data over to QuickBooks and
create an invoice for me automatically over there, which was awesome cuz
it saved a huge amount of time.
Cause obviously an air table, there's no accounting or anything built into
it, so having to manually like copy and paste or transcribe that job
information over into an invoice and QuickBooks is tedious for me because
I in a month could do a hundred jobs.
Yeah.
You know, and that's the, you know, they're all small jobs that it's, it's a
lot of copying pasting in the QuickBooks where otherwise I can just hit this
button and it just shoots it right over.
And I'm done.
Save me an insane amount of time.
I stopped using it.
? Bryant Gillespie: Yes.
. Greener pastures.
Greener pastures.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
Uh, yeah.
But it was, it was great.
I loved it.
It was fantastic until I found this other app that I'm using that, that is
actually purpose built for what I do.
Um, but yeah, I mean, it was, there's so much you can do in Airtable and
I, I think you and I just scratched the surface with what you did for me.
But, and, and it does have a powerful API that really allows you to, to,
like I said, string multiple apps together to really build a, a pretty
functional, all inclusive tool.
Yeah.
I'd say Trello and then Airtable and
Bryant Gillespie: then the next leap.
Hey, let's do these in order of like investment, I guess.
So let's move to industry specific, off the shelf software.
I wanna say if, like custom for the end.
Because, because the, I think that conversation's gonna be pretty short.
. Michael Riley: Custom's expensive, and you're gonna end up with a carbon
copy of what's already on the market.
, we've seen it happen.
Bryant Gillespie: Seen it happen.
All right, so industry specific software.
If we go sign industry focused, we've got shop box.
You've got corporate
Michael Riley: serious
Bryant Gillespie: Sign tracker.
Sign tracker.
Square Coil.
Is this for Coil?
Um, used to be called vs.
Sign.
Oh,
Michael Riley: that's right.
Yeah, it's a Square Coil.
Corbridge, Sirius.
Shop Box, sign Tracker estimate.
What are we missing?
I,
Bryant Gillespie: I don't know.
Hey, like half of those haven't been updated in the last five
years, I would argue, but.
Yeah.
Estimate specifically.
Uh, you know, I like you and I both love that program.
As ancient as it is
, Michael Riley: I, I think estimate's an awesome program for what it is.
It's fairly affordable.
It's not very expensive.
It takes a little bit of time to set up, but it's not very complex to set up.
Um, estimate lacks any, any real like job management, job tracking functionality.
It's really more of a pricing.
It's more of a pricing, you know, calculator type program.
But, and it's, and it is dated, like, and I don't mean this offensively
to the folks that estimate, I hope they're not listening to this.
I mean, it, it's definitely in need of like a UI update, but damn, if
it ain't the most, the most like user-friendly, like powerful little sign
pro pricing software I've ever seen.
Like it is just brilliant in the way it works.
And I will go to my grave, like being a, an estimate cheerleader because it's,
it's a great little app for what it is.
It's not a, if you're looking for like a, an all-inclusive, like shop
management, like a, like a true e r p.
You know, enterprise resource management type program.
It is not, it's not gonna be estimate.
Right?
Like it's, it's, it's a very specific little thing.
But
Bryant Gillespie: yeah.
And maybe that's where we need to go next is kind of qualify this, right?
Like, some of these do, well, all these things have their strengths
and weaknesses, but mm-hmm.
, like what you need to clarify for yourself on shop management software,
mis, e r p, whatever you wanna call it, is like, which of those pieces within,
within that are most important to you?
Is it, you know, hey, I need something that will allow us to
get estimates out the door quicker.
You know, is pricing like the biggest thing or is order management job
management kind of the biggest piece?
Or, you know, is it something else like proofing or collaboration?
You know, but it usually, by far, like the two biggest buckets that we've saw
or we've seen were what pricing and
Michael Riley: manage, like job manage job, job management.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And, and if, if, if, A lot of shops.
I mean, I've seen a lot of shops that really have like the production
management side dialed down or they're, they're comfortable using paper
work orders and dry erase boards.
And that's okay if you are, I don't, you know, we're not here to tell you that
that's not okay and a lot of shops just need to solve the pricing problem only
and, and estimates a, you know, it's a pretty slick little tool for that.
But, you know, moving up from estimate into something that's, you know, a
little more, a little more robust would probably be What, what do you think?
Sign Tracker?
I don't, yeah.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: I, I haven't looked at Sign Tracker Tracker
specifically in the last six months.
Like, usually I try to keep up to speed on all these mm-hmm.
and keep tabs on everybody and like what progress they're making.
I know like Sign Tracker has the estimating, it has like
some job management features.
I don't know how deep those go.
And that's, yeah, that's the other reason for.
Shop management series that we're planning is, is not just for all the community
members to kinda get a, an unbiased look at all these tools, but also for
me to stay up to speed, things move
Michael Riley: fast, so, yeah.
Yeah, totally.
For sure.
Yeah.
Sun Tracker's pretty popular.
I know.
Seems like a lot of people use it.
It's been a while since I've looked at it as well.
I looked at it for running my design business and it's really geared
more towards production oriented places, so it wasn't a good fit
for me, but people seem to like it.
I can't remember though, if it has, how much it has in the way of like
estimating and stuff built into it, versus more just production management.
But I know it's not like a, like, as, as fully featured and robust
as some of the other, you know, true e r P systems out there.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
And you
Michael Riley: may not need that, depending on, yeah.
Yeah.
It may be perfect for you.
I, I know a lot of guys that are on the, you know, the smaller side, maybe under
10 employees that just really need more of a, a really good way to track jobs
through the shop and move away from paper.
Seem to really enjoy using sign tracker for that.
So, yeah.
All
Bryant Gillespie: right.
Then we've got what serious.
We like Sirius.
That was like one of the first ones that I experimented with back in the day.
Michael Riley: Sirius is old school.
They've been around for a while and
Bryant Gillespie: yeah, and they got bought out by Corbridge at one point.
I'm not even sure.
Is is, are they still selling Sirius number one?
Hey, we should look up that before we start talking
Michael Riley: about it.
They've moved completely to, to their cloud-based version.
So Sirius for a long time was a an MS access database program that you had
to install locally on a server and use, and I don't know if you've ever had
the pleasure of using it or not, but the original version was we set it up.
It was
Bryant Gillespie: serious sms.
Yeah, it SMS or control.
Michael Riley: It did a lot.
It was a power of a program, but it was difficult to use.
It was clunky because it had to be installed on a server.
I
Bryant Gillespie: remember sitting through the demo of, I still remember it to this
day, and this has been like 10, 12 years ago, like sitting through the demo and I'm
like, shit, this does everything we need, like all our worries are eased at this.
And then I spent two and a half hours the first day trying to get SQL
Server set up and running correctly.
And then I was, I spent an hour on the phone with tech support, uh, not knocking
the product, but the installation process just totally turned us off of it.
And then the, like, the usage, like if, if my boss and I were into
it, but the rest of the team, we failed to get on board with it.
Uh, or they failed to get on board with it just, just because of the,
uh, the robustness of it, I guess.
And it kind of, the interface wasn't really helping things either.
Michael Riley: Yeah, and I, I can't speak to the new version.
The, the cloud version they call control.
I, I believe it's,
Bryant Gillespie: so it's, it is not actually cloud,
the database is in the cloud.
The application is still running on your computer.
So that, is that how it works?
Okay.
Yeah.
I would put Sirius in the like, Hey, it's an option, but
they like off in the corner,
Michael Riley: um,
, Bryant Gillespie: let's see.
A lot of shops use it.
Yeah.
It's still, still popular.
Uh,
Michael Riley: yeah.
Functionality wise.
Yeah.
Sirius definitely, you know, it, it charge
Bryant Gillespie: it up Mike so we don't get those cease and desist.
Yeah, that's what I'm
Michael Riley: trying to do.
Just shut your mouth for a second.
Okay.
Stop talking.
Brian . No, I, I mean I used it extensively at one point
and it, it, from a pricing standpoint, it works really well.
I mean, it, it's a little old school in the way the calculator and it
works, but you can definitely set it up to run some pretty complex
calculations and do some pretty.
Pretty complicated quotes in it.
It's just, you're right, it's clunky.
It's the US user interface isn't desperate to even update.
It's a little outdated now.
I definitely felt like the, you know, the production management side
of Sirius was on the light side.
I don't think it really, it was also very manual and which, which
I think opens the door for some things to go sideways on you.
But I don't, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't count
serious out as a contender either.
I mean, it just depends on what your needs are.
Bryant Gillespie: Go back to your needs.
Not, not our needs, not what everybody else needs Especi.
Right.
And, and, and it's especially
Michael Riley: not, oh, go ahead.
I was gonna, I think it's really important that people understand too, that Bryants
and I, like we eat, breathe, sleep, shop management, science software.
Like this is, this is and more so for Bryant than me, but for both of us.
I mean, this was very much like our entire lives.
And, and so we look at this stuff with a more critical eye than some people do.
And we're gonna, we're gonna pick things like the user interface apart
and like, oh man, that button should be over there and this is a terrible
shade of gray and stuff like that.
So our, you know, take, take our opinions with a grain of salt as well.
I think that's really cool.
Software snobs.
Yeah.
Let's, we, we are, we are, we are huge, huge software snobs and we
need to admit that to ourselves and to our audience right now.
. Bryant Gillespie: Agreed.
Agreed.
. All right.
So I think that brings us into like the next batch.
And I, I want to like, I want to group square coil into this one, but
I don't know enough about square coil.
I, I, I've, I've seen demos of it when it was vs sign.
I don't know enough about it.
Uh, that's one I look forward to learning more about because I, I
saw some people bragging on it.
And, and to be fair, like in all of the sign industry Facebook groups,
there's people bragging on each one of these solutions, uh, that I've seen.
Uh, but again, you've also gotta kind of take that with a grain of salt because
the, yes, it's a assigned industry Facebook group, but just because Joe says
it's a, a great software and it changed their shop for the better, doesn't mean
it's gonna be the right solution for you.
So, right.
Let that be The overarching theme of this conversation is none of these are perfect.
None of them ever will be.
Find out which one works well for you.
So yeah, moving up into that next tier we have shot box.
I'll put Corbridge in the same light
Michael Riley: and, and I think Square, I'm looking at
Square Coil on Rally right now.
I mean, it, it, it looks like they've made some pretty, pretty hefty improvements
to it since the last time I looked at it.
I, I definitely think that that square Coil is gonna be a
contender in that, in that realm
Bryant Gillespie: too, which would be, I don't know if I see,
yeah, I've got the website up.
I don't know if I see anything like sales lead tracking or, or like
opportunities on the, like the front end to manage the, the sales funnel.
But, uh, I see purchase orders and inventory and costing and all that stuff.
So for the sake of this call, we'll, we'll put those all in the same kind of
Michael Riley: bucket there.
Yeah, I, I think that's more of like where you start getting into, you know,
in, in the weeds feature set comparison where, you know, one might have more of
a front end CRM type functionality where the other one is, you know, heavier on
the back end or something, but looks like they have inventory document
storage, which is nice photo storage.
So, yeah, I, I think, I think Square Coil definitely is something that people
should, should, should take a, a long, hard look at and, and consider heavily
and then, Uh, chatbox and Corbridge.
Corbridge.
Yeah.
So Corbridge,
Bryant Gillespie: let's start with Corbridge.
For the longest time, they were obviously our biggest competitor
there at the, at Chatbox.
And, and just so we're clear, these opinions are, are Mike's and mine alone.
Uh, we're no longer affiliated with any of these companies.
Absolutely.
Uh, Corbridge, I know.
Here's what I know about Corbridge.
They've got a new version in the works.
I don't know if it's released yet or not.
I saw a preview of it in Las Vegas back in October.
I.
I like the interface.
There was plenty of white space.
I don't know why that's a requirement on my shop management
software list, but it is,
Michael Riley: I I think that's an important point because you, you mentioned
a second ago that you had a heck of a time getting your employees at your
shop to buy in the, the Sirius because like, like whatever program you choose,
it's gotta be easy for the users to, to get in there and do their job in.
And if, if it's so complicated and the screen is so cluttered with crap
that, you know, your, your dude running your, your wide format printer, just
he can't get in there and see what he needs to do and easily and quickly
find the information he needs, then you got a pretty big problem on your hand.
And that's, I mean, that's something that we saw quite often with, with shop box
users as well, is they had a hard time getting employee buy-in on the system
because it was, you know, set up too complicated or, or for whatever reason.
But if your staff isn't willing to use the program, I mean, if they're just.
You know, if it's a mutiny because it's too complicated for them,
then you definitely need to go back to the drawing board For sure.
So that, I think the cleanliness of the user interface, the ease of na,
you know, navigation is, is a, a really critical part of the decision making
process in this because, you know, it's, it's gotta be user friendly, not just
to the person setting it up, but to, you know, the people on the shop floor
that are gonna use it to Yeah, yeah.
And actually, actually more so for them, I mean, it, it doesn't really matter
how, how hard it is for you to set it up.
You, you know, once it's set up, it's set up, it needs to be, you
know, the top priority needs to be ease of use once it's in action.
Bryant Gillespie: I agree.
Yeah.
I like, I didn't imagine we'd be weaving tips into this as we were going through
the list, but yeah, that's, that's like tip number one is like bring your
employees into this search process.
Like who are your key employees that are gonna be like, leading their
departments inside this software?
Because again, it's a, a marriage, you're gonna be.
In it for a while until you decide to annul or divorce or , just whatever,
call the cease and desist letters.
Send them on . Um, but yeah, it involve the key employees in that
decision and, and give them, you know, ultimately it's your shop.
You've gotta make that call and they've gotta get it in line with that.
But, you know, involve them in that process and get their
feedback throughout the process.
Because again, the last thing you want is to invest three months of
your time, six months of your time.
We've had, you know, we've worked with shops that took 12 months or more to
get something like this implemented
Michael Riley: and then they launch it and then like everybody refuses to use it.
Yes.
Bryant Gillespie: That's the last thing that you want, that you've
been paying monthly or you know, upfront, whatever you pay 20, $30,000.
And then you get into the software and nobody wants to use it.
Mm-hmm.
involve those key people in that decision making process on the front end.
And that way, even if they, you don't go with the one that they choose or they
thought was the best fit, at least they've felt they've had a say in it and you know,
they've been involved in the process.
Yeah.
Which, you know, hearkening back to that episode with Jeff Sherman, that was
like the biggest thing, you know, that was one of the reasons why he left his
previous employer was he just felt like he wasn't being listened to anymore.
Mm-hmm.
. Michael Riley: Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, that's, that's, that's really important.
Don't, don't just drop this on your employees like, hey, surprise, . Guess
what it, that's, it's definitely a way to a alienate employees
and make them feel not important, not part of the bigger picture.
And this, you know, this is, this is a tool that they're gonna have to use.
So it, it is, it is important that they're able to use it and, and understand
it and, and are comfortable with it.
But yeah, I'm, I'm looking at some of the screenshots here at corbridge.
It looks like they've made some, some really nice improvements to this.
And so the last time I saw it as well, uh, it looks like a
really nice user interface.
Seems like it's got some great reporting.
Did you find the new version?
I don't know if this is the new version or not.
I'm just looking on their website.
I can't tell if it's, it's been a while since I've looked at
Corbridge at least a year or two.
So
Bryant Gillespie: I'll make sure we link out to all these
in the show notes as well.
Michael Riley: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
And then we got shot box.
Of course we gotta talk about that one Shop box is, as I mentioned
earlier, it's been around for a while.
It was, it was, I, I, I think Sirius was probably the first, you know,
app like this to hit the market.
But not long after Sein V and then Shop Box came out.
So Shop Box has had a long history in the industry.
It is, You know, Brian and I, obviously, because we were both employees of Shop
Box for a long time, we know it extremely well, better than the other programs.
And we can definitely say, I think with I I I think it's a great program.
I mean, you know, like anything, it's not without its problems,
but it, it is definitely purpose built for the sign industry.
You know, a lot of what you see in Shop Box is a hundred percent
user, you know, user driven as well.
So it, it's a, it's a pretty good end-to-end, you know, solution.
For sure.
What are your thoughts on it, Brian?
Bryant Gillespie: I'll give it two thumbs up, man.
Like, like yo, I and I, I will say like, I invested a lot of time in Shop
Box, obviously like you can't unlearn that type of thing, or like, as it
is hard for me to detach some of.
Like personal feelings from some of it, but those things aside, it's a,
it's a pretty good piece of software.
You know, the, where they're at now, uh, let's, let's talk about that.
That's probably a, a little better conversation is, you know, they've
got the express version, which is, you know, mostly for smaller shops.
You know, the job management features aren't as robust as the pro version,
but the express version does have a nice redesign user interface.
So if, if user interface is high on the list for you, the
express version is worth a look.
Uh, as much as I know right now the pro version of Shox is still on the
older interface, and every time I talk to the team or, uh, you know,
see email newsletters, the, the new version of Pro is still in the works.
I don't know if they're selling that to
Michael Riley: customers yet.
I think the new version, I think they're migrating people through the
new version now and I think there are some people that are on it.
I think, I think like version 1.0 of the new version is, is pretty
stable and up and running now.
Bryant Gillespie: I don't know if you went to their website and said,
Hey, I want Sha Fox Pro, which version you're gonna get of Pro?
Do you know?
Is it the the new one
Michael Riley: or I think it's all new one now.
I think people are using the new one I think.
I think a lot of like the more like, like inventory stuff like that.
I think some of those features are still being worked on.
So some of the features aren't available in New Pro yet, but I believe
like the basic core functionality is now, is now on the new ui.
That's my understanding.
But I could be wrong.
I don't know.
I don't work there anymore.
So what do I know?
? Bryant Gillespie: We're both just guessing here, which could
be dangerous for the podcast,
Michael Riley: but I mean, at the end of the day, like the
functionality is the same regardless what the user interface looks like.
And, and yeah.
Yeah.
All the features are the same.
Yeah.
Shop box's pricing engine is really good.
It is a learning curve to the pricing engine, and I think that's probably
true of all of these, but I mean, there's a little bit of a, a learning
curve to getting your products set up and functioning the way you want
them, but it is extremely powerful.
You can really, you can do a lot with it.
There are some limitations to it, like, like there will be with anything.
But, um, you know, if you're, if you're good at writing, like Excel
style, Excel style, Formulas, you know, you can, you can really open up
a whole other world of functionality.
And from a pricing side of things, the shop box has a really, a pretty good
job of tracking production as well.
It's a little more automated than some take this comment with a grain
of salt, cuz it's been a while since I've looked at the others.
But, but I, I definitely think that shop box has a, a bit of a
leg up on the competition from a productions tracking standpoint.
Um, just the way their, their workflows work and everything is, is pretty slick.
You know, for, for my shop it was a game changer.
It really helped keep everybody on the same page.
And that was, you know, the feedback I got from a lot of our users as well.
It's not perfect.
I mean, there's some scheduling is kind of difficult in in shop box if
you wanna really wanna break out and, and like, you know, schedule each
individual production operation that a job will go through from start to finish.
Definitely.
But, but I, I, I, I'm hesitant to.
Say that's really shop Box's fault.
And I'm gonna blame that just on the industry.
Again, as I said earlier, every shop does things a little bit differently.
There's not, you know, one industry standard consistent way that every single
shop schedules their work or breaks out their work and, and distributes it out.
So Shop Box, Google Calendar.
Bryant Gillespie: Google Calendar.
Google Calendar.
Yeah.
Michael Riley: So they, or Outlook they've got,
Bryant Gillespie: if you're using Outlook, just stop the call right now.
Like, yeah, we don't just plant that flag.
, go away.
. Michael Riley: Um, so, you know, again, like there's, there's, there's,
there's gonna be some give and take with all these apps for sure.
And, and you just have to go into it with realistic expectations of
what, you know, what a piece of software can actually do and what.
What you still need to do outside of it.
Like, you know, maybe you do need to schedule on a calendar or something,
you know, Google calendar instead of, of using the, the, the shot boxes
built in scheduling functionality.
But yeah,
Bryant Gillespie: let's go to the final tier and then, and then I wanna back up
and do like some, I want to like have you give your advice and I'll like,
give a couple of nuggets on choosing and implementing shop management software.
But the next tier, what, like, and like building a custom solution, like having
a developer build you a custom solution.
Maybe you've got an in-house developer that you're thinking
of building your own solution.
The final word on this is gonna be, no, basically that's the end of story.
Uh, I will, I will put like an asterisk beside it.
The only way that you should consider.
Is if you are already on one of these programs, like we've just discussed, like
Shop, Fox, Corbridge, Sirius, whatever, and you are hitting the limitations of
that, and you have sat down and thought about what functionality you need out of
the next system, and you have a detailed list of here's everything that we need.
You've, you've thought through all of these things and you
have a budget to back that up.
Uh, the budget range that you're looking at is gonna be $125,000 ish on
the low end to half a million dollars on the high end, maybe even more.
You know, I'd, I'd hesitate.
Put a cap on it because it, I'm sure somebody like Signs 365 or some of
these other, like large trade printers have built all these systems from
scratch and you know, you've seen how kind of slick their website is.
I'm sure their backend is just as impressive, you know, Hey, like if
millions and millions of dollars in this.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
It, and, and we've been that we've, we've had several shop box users that decided
they're gonna build their own system and we had several that were trying to
build their own system and threw their hands up and said, screw this, we're
just gonna buy something off the shelf and come, come back the other way.
Yeah.
. Yeah.
It is, it is like, like those numbers that Brian is throwing
out are not an exaggeration.
They.
Do not underestimate how complicated that project is.
It's, it's not like, Hey, I'm gonna build a spreadsheet that, you know,
calculates some prices for me.
I mean, there's a lot of functionality there and it's a, it's an enormous
project that's gonna take a number of people a lot of time to get done,
and it's gonna cost you a fortune.
Now, if you're a huge shop that's doing 10, 20 plus million dollars a year in
sales, or you know, your yes go, or something like that, where you've got
deeper pockets than Walmart, you, you can justify that cost and it's probably
money well spent for you because of, you know, an operation of that size.
They need custom software that's dialed in for exactly the way they operate.
They, you know, trying to use an off-the-shelf system and adapt to that.
It's just, is this really not an option when you're operating at that level?
But, I mean, let's be honest, probably the president of the guest coast not listening
to this podcast, and, and it's probably, you know, not looking at shop box anyway.
Average, average signed company owner, if you're, you're under 10 million a
year in sales, while it may seem like a viable option to you, It's not, and don't,
you know, just get it outta your mind right now, like it's not gonna happen.
I, I've, I've got some firsthand experience with this as well.
I know a shop that operates in that 10 million range who has been trying to have
a custom system built for them for years and years and years now, and, They demoed
shop box and they felt like, you know, this is just too cheap for what we need.
This can't do what we need because it's not expensive enough.
And, and they've invested well into the six figures on a custom software
system that doesn't even come close to the functionality of Shop Box.
So like, you know, tread lightly.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: And if you do get, like, you talk to a developer and
they quote you something stupid, like $20,000 to build this run.
Like, you better, yeah.
You better run like it.
You're going, like, you may spec it out for them and they'll tell you $20,000.
I promise you.
Like if any of the founders of these other companies were on the call with
us and they told you how much they've invested in the development of these
platforms, like Shop Box or Corbridge, or Sign Tracker, what have you,
it's gonna be way more than $30,000
So if you get, if you get a stupid quote like that, uh, run.
Yeah.
So build your own custom software.
Know unless you're over 10 million in annual revenue, and then think about it.
That's gonna be,
Michael Riley: and even then, I think I, yeah, then it's a stretch.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: That's gonna be the, the better side shop.
Flying in the sand there.
All right, so kind of pulling around to wrapping this up, Mike,
what would be like your top 1, 2, 3 gotchas or tips or advice?
Like if it, somebody is like shopping this arena right now, they're thinking
about, you know, switching systems or implementing a system where they have
done, or they're trying to go from Trello to something else, whatever.
Like what's your, what's your hall of fame advice in
Michael Riley: this?
Oh, right, okay.
Number one, and I, we, we already beat on this a little bit, but.
Be realistic with your expectations and be prepared to compromise a little bit
because we are talking about off-the-shelf software that wasn't built for your shop.
So you're going to have to be willing to bend a little bit.
You're gonna have to be willing to step back and look at your processes
and systems and the way you operate and tweak those and adjust them so
that they work more in line with whatever program that you choose.
That's, that's like a given.
That's number one.
If you are unwilling to do that, then this whole endeavor is
going to be a failure for you.
Like I can tell you that with a hundred percent certainty right now.
If you're unwilling to compromise, don't even bother.
Just don't wa don't waste your time.
Don't waste these software companies times cuz it's, it's gonna be a
bad outcome for everybody involved.
That's, that's number one, like a hundred percent.
And that was I think, the biggest battle that, that at least I faced when.
You know, it was implementing shop box for shops all day, every day.
Was that, that that owner is just like, they had it in their head that
it's gotta be this way and this way.
Exactly.
And if it doesn't do it that way, then this is the program that's
junk and I'm not gonna use it.
And that's, that's you're just setting yourself up for failure.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna jump on there and say accountants as well.
Oh.
And then I'm, I'm just gonna get a whole new crew of people hate us, . You
Michael Riley: know what, let's let the accountants send all the hate
mail they want because they need to be kept out of this discussion.
A hundred percent.
Like guys.
Look at me.
Don't get your accountant involved in this discussion.
Don't bring them invol, don't bring them into this.
All of these programs that we're talking about are gonna be fine.
From an accounting standpoint, a hundred percent every one of them works
fine from an accounting standpoint.
If they didn't, they wouldn't be on the market.
It might not be exactly the way your accountant likes to do things.
A lot of accountants have trust issues with apps that are sending
data from the app in the QuickBooks or something, and they freak out about it.
But if your accountant has that big of a problem with it, to hire a new
accountant, like just full stop.
Get 'em out of there because they're not doing you any good.
They're like, they're the biggest nightmare to deal with when it comes
with these programs under the sun.
I know that sounds harsh, but it's true.
I mean, Brian and I have dealt with this a lot, and your accountant will be your
worst enemy, in your biggest nightmare of these programs if you let 'em.
But yeah, yeah, like avoid that.
So no accountants be realistic about it.
Um, gosh, what?
I'm trying to think what else.
I mean, I, to me those are, that's like the biggest one is
just being realistic about what
Bryant Gillespie: I'll, I'll go and then if you think of something else.
Michael Riley: Yeah, let me think about some more while you're talking.
Yeah, yeah,
Bryant Gillespie: yeah.
So, uh, like, number one on my list is gonna be a hundred percent
complete, not a hundred percent complete, is what I'm gonna say.
Like, you think, Hey, I need, that's good.
One need to be a hundred percent complete to launch this thing.
That's one of the biggest issues that I, uh, I was at Shop Box seven years,
probably one of the top issues, uh, that prevented people from going live
or getting value out of their software.
these things are never gonna be a hundred percent complete, right?
Just like we said, there's no perfect system.
You can't make a system perfect for you, and it's never gonna be, the
pricing's never gonna be perfect.
The scheduling is never gonna be perfect.
Your own workflow on top of the tool is never gonna be perfect.
So if you're waiting to launch, if you pick one of these tools, you,
your strategy for implementing this should be what is the smallest piece
that we can complete in six weeks?
Like, how much can we get set up within six weeks?
And I would, you know, honestly, if it were me and I was leading
the charge, I would want to bring that back inside like four weeks.
But look at it, uh, like how much can I get done in six weeks?
That's what we're gonna launch with, and we're gonna start using the
hell out of it at that point, and we'll fix the rest of it as we go.
Because a, as we said earlier, you don't know what you don't know.
And.
Until you're actually using your chosen software, you're not gonna
know the downfalls or the workarounds or, or even, you know, just the best
way to do something until you're actually neck deep and using it.
You know, , it's like you can watch, if we back up to like your domain mike,
like design work, you can watch all the YouTube tutorials on how to use
Corel draw or how to design a sign.
But until you're actually working on a design and you're neck deep into
it, like you're not, you're not gonna fully understand what's going on.
So you don't have to be a hundred percent complete to launch.
And it like, uh, I'll like kick that with the pricing side of it.
Like, , if you're waiting until all of your products and pricing are.
Don't, you know, pick a, a few core products, um, because
that, that is one of the biggest challenges of all these softwares
is getting it set up and running.
Focus on your core products, you know, get to a, just good enough to where
you're not losing money, you know, you're, you're still profitable on the pricing,
but pick a certain subset of products like, hey, tell your team like, okay,
these five products are now okay to price inside the software and then use
as much as the rest of it as you can.
Yeah.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
I, I think that's, I think that's good.
Kind of, kind of do a phased rollout.
I, I would say the, the majority of the users, at least the shop box users that
I've worked with over the years that get it implemented and they get up and
running and, and they're using it for a while, I, I would, I would say that the
vast majority of them eventually over time will come back to the table and say,
okay, we've been using this for a while.
We figured out what works and what doesn't work well for us, and now
we need to kind of go back to the drawing board and, and sort of.
Start rebuilding what we've already done and fixing a lot of things and
implementing a program like this is going to be, you know, it needs to be looked
at as a, as a very long-term project.
And it's a living, breathing organism in a way that's always evolving.
So it's never, you know, you don't just set it up and you're done and
you, you know, you forget about it.
You're always constantly going to be massaging it and fine
tuning it and tweaking it to get it, you know, where you want.
You're always introducing new products and pricing is changing, or you
change the way you do something.
So it's, it's always gonna be, you know, a living project that's never fully done.
And yeah, Brian's right, like if you, if you have that expectation where
we're not gonna introduce this through the team and we're not gonna launch it
until, in my mind it's done, you will never, you'll never get it launched.
It's true.
And we've definitely seen that with a lot of, lot of people who
just, you know, what was that?
Was that movie?
Failure to Launch with like Matthew McConaughey or something?
There you go.
Bryant Gillespie: You're gonna beat Matthew McConaughey.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
Living in Wish I could do a Matthew McConaughey voice.
All right.
All right, all right.
Alright.
Right.
All right.
. Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: All right.
I don't know if you thought of one.
I got one more laid on.
Oh, I thought I did.
And let me try to read my notes.
Oh, man.
Michael Riley: That, that just popped into my head is, is looking at the, you know,
comparing features of these programs too.
I mean, uh, you know, it's easy to look at like a feature comparison chart and, and,
and try and pick the one that has the most features or the best features or whatever.
But, you know, ki kind of in the same vein as, as is only, you
know, rolling it out in phases and picking the most important part.
I mean, don't buy based on, which has just, you know, the most, the most
features, like checks the most boxes.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Because chances are pretty good.
, even though it has a lot of these features, you, you might not
need 'em, you might not want 'em.
Um, they might not really be quite in line with the way you want it
to, you know, want it to work.
And also, we've seen this too, with a lot of people, like,
okay, there's this feature there.
I feel like I'm compelled to use it because it's there and I'm paying for it.
So now I've gotta use this inventory tracking feature.
Yeah, that's a good one too.
Even though I don't need inventory, I, I'm, it's there, so I've gotta use it
and, and well, it doesn't work the way I want it, so this whole program sucks.
I'm gonna cancel it.
Right.
That happens a lot too.
We've seen that a, a ton Don.
Don't feel compelled to use every single bell and whistle in these
programs just because they're there.
If you don't need it, just shut it off.
Hide it in the background.
Don't complicate your employee's day days by making them wade through a bunch
of features that don't affect them or don't, don't really come into play.
That's not necessary.
You know, keep it as simple as you can.
Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna give that one like a, a headline and
like, say that these programs should be looked at as like, accelerate,
like , like, you know, or like a, a force multiplier or something.
Like if your process y yes, they'll give you some structure and process,
you know, and that's part of what Mike said, where you have to be willing
to kind of bend your systems a little bit to the tool that you select.
Like, these guys aren't gonna give you a business in a box.
That's like the, one of the other caveats is
Like, you can't buy one of these expecting it to run your shop for you.
Um, and if, if you've got a, a failure or a big problem, In your team or within
your like informal like soft systems, like working with teammates or you
know, like, Hey, this information's not getting communicated, shop or
Corbridge or any of these other tools, they're not gonna fix that.
And in fact, like they're going to magnify that problem.
You're gonna shine
Michael Riley: a light on it.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
And then you know it's gonna be a frustrat.
Endeavor for
Michael Riley: everybody.
Yeah, that's a really, that's a really good point too, is I, I think a lot of
people go into this with the expectation that it is going to, to make fundamental
foundational changes to their business.
And it's, it's, it's definitely not going to do that.
It's still requires you to know how to run a business and it requires you to
be, you know, active participant in that.
Yeah.
It's just a tool.
Bryant Gillespie: It's, it's not anything more Exactly.
It's, it's not a business in a box.
Like, you can't sign up for one of these thinking, they're gonna
have pricing worked out for you.
They may have like some kind of starter database, which we may or
may not have had a hand in years ago.
Um, but it, like, it's, it's not going to be.
Ready to go out of the box and it, it's not gonna run your business for you.
The other one that I had, and I couldn't read my handwriting, that's how bad it is
when you're in conversations and you're talking to your sales reps or you know,
even if you're on one of these softwares already, you're gonna be, uh, privy to
like, Hey, this update is coming soon.
Or, you know, you're gonna be, uh, you may hear some things about the
roadmap, uh, we're working on this feature or this feature is coming.
Take all those conversations that you hear unless you see proof,
treat it like it doesn't exist.
Just put it out of the back of your mind because, and I will say it's,
it is kind of a mix like there, there may be some fault of the company here,
but it's also software development and being knee deep in that environment
and working at other companies.
uh, software dev development is not like building a sign where
there's like a a linear process.
You know what, what may look like a simple feature on the surface once
you actually get into it, and, you know, the, the architecture of the
software is gonna matter there as well.
Like the, the choices that were made years ago when they were building
the software affect the features that they're working on now.
So if somebody says, Hey, this is, we're gonna have this in six weeks.
And, and that is not like ironclad.
If somebody tells you that on a call or an email, it's conjecture, it's a guess.
Just do not tell your team.
Do not pass.
Go.
Do not collect $200.
Don't put any stock in it and don't base any of your decisions on it.
Uh, likewise, if you're shopping now for shop management software and you're
talking with a rep and they say, Oh, hey, we're gonna have this feature.
You ask about a feature, they say, Hey, we're we, we're working on it.
Now it's in beta, or whatever.
Just put it out of the back of your mind.
That's, that's not a checkbox, you know, it may be in six
months, it could be 18 months.
You never know.
Michael Riley: Yeah.
When I entered that world of, of software development working for
Shop Box, that was a, that was an interesting lesson I learned as well.
Cause I'm so used to the sign industry where everything is, is, is rush.
Everything has a deadline.
Everything is right.
Now, now, now even, even for the biggest, most long-term sign projects, I mean,
they still have a deadline that gets done.
And like you said, it's a linear process that's fairly predictable
and that's, software development is just a whole other ballgame.
And it is this glacially slow process.
Especially when you're talking about apps that are as complex
and big as the ones that we are.
I mean, these are not, there's not simple things in, in, in every, like,
like Brian said, every feature, every little tweak that they make to it
has bar reaching implications on the back end of that software that is a
user you don't see, but they take.
You know, a monumental amount of time to work out multiplied by however many
changes and features and updates that are trying to be made at one time.
And, and yeah, I mean, it's a recipe for, it's a slow process.
, I'm, I'm fairly certain, you know what, I, I started at Shop Box
like what, seven years ago now?
Six years ago, something like that.
I'm fairly certain there's still some open tickets from my first week on the job that
are still, you know, underdevelopment.
So, and that's, no, you know, we're not pointing the finger at the software
company by saying that it's just the nature of nature of the nature
Bryant Gillespie: of the piece.
Yeah.
And, you know, knowing that cut them some slack on the other side as well.
Yeah, totally.
Like, like this is, there's, there's not a blueprint for what they're building.
Like, it, it's not like, Hey, Mike has gone through and exquisitely
designed, here's where all the nuts and bolts need to go.
Uh, they're It's more into like building the airplane as you're in the air as
Michael Riley: you're flying it.
Yeah.
That's exactly what it is.
I mean, it's, the best analogy I think you're gonna find for
software development is, Building the airplane while you're flying it.
Bryant Gillespie: All right, I got one more exclamation point and then
we will like mic drop this one.
If, if you're the owner of the shop, uh, and you know, probably
what, like maybe 80, 90% of the people listening probably are.
If, if you are the owner, this process is gonna take a ton of your time and you
have to prepare yourself accordingly.
Uh, this is not a project and, and I, I will say this.
There are some conditions to this.
Maybe you're not involved in the day-to-day anymore, then maybe you could
kind of take a backseat in this process.
But if you are the owner and you are directly involved in the day-to-day
operations of your business, this project, implementing shop
management software is going to take a large investment of your time.
It is not something that you can hand off to a junior level team member.
Or somebody new to the industry and expect good results.
I stare directly into the camera as I say these things, . For that
reason, you cannot hand this off to somebody that you hired six
months ago and expect a good result.
Thank you
Michael Riley: for saying that.
I, I can't believe I, I forgot that one.
I, that is, that is an excellent point.
Quick anecdote.
I had a fairly large sign company when I was in the shop box.
They, they were up in the two, three, $4 million range.
Signed up for Shop Box and the, the owner of the company put his 14 year
old daughter who'd never, didn't, had never worked in the sign industry.
You know, she came in to hang out with Daddy at work and that was about it.
He put her in charge of it because she's good with computers.
And, I mean, you can guess where that landed.
I mean, yes.
They never, ever, it, and I had the
Bryant Gillespie: I, I have seen this Ruin employees lives.
Okay.
And like, oh yeah, I, I, I've heard these stories like firsthand,
secondhand, the, these systems again, like they're a multiplier.
Like if you get this implemented and running inside your business,
it is going to like change your business a hundred percent.
If you don't do it the right way or you, you handle everything
poorly, it, it's gonna ruin lives.
Like you might lose employees over it, which I've seen happen time and
time again because it, like, as the owner, uh, and especially like a, you
know, a lot of the guys that we talk to are not just new to the industry,
like they're 10, 20 years into it, you know, on a similar playing field as us.
Uh, so if you've got 10 years of industry knowledge and you're trying to hand this
off to somebody, but you don't make the time, like daily, you need to make two
or three hours a day or, uh, you know, have a, like a whole dedicated day on
your calendar to sit down with whoever's implementing this, whether that's
yourself or, uh, another team member.
And you need to go through all these things like, Hey, how do I price?
Uh, because there's a lot of that firsthand knowledge that
a like just doesn't make your, make its way to your team.
And
Michael Riley: so these, these programs, they touch every.
Every corner of your business.
I mean, they, they are very, very deep and broad in what they do.
And the only person at, at your sign company that really knows, you know,
has that deep understanding of, of how your business operates and,
and, and how it needs to interface with these programs is you as the
owner, you're the only one that does.
And, and it's extremely unrealistic to think that you can
hand any of that off employee.
I mean, I, I'm not even a fan of the owner working with a lower level employee on it.
I, I really, I mean, in rare cases it works, but in most cases it
doesn't because there's still going to be that, that that knowledge gap
between the owner and that person.
And no matter how much time you dedicate to it, you still can't like, you
know, fully brain dump on that person.
Everything that they need to know.
I mean, it, and it, and it, you know, like Brian said, we've seen it happen
many, many, many times and it, it will tank the, it'll tank the implementation.
And it's just, I mean, to be frank, I mean that's just, it's just,
that's just dumb and poor business.
To think that you can hand off something that's that critical to somebody who's.
who's not that critical of, you know, of an employee.
I mean, there's no other word for it, and that's just stupid.
And, and we've seen it happen so many times and you're,
and yeah, Bryant's, right?
Like I, we've seen a lot of employees just throw up their hands and quit.
We've seen a lot of failed implementations.
We've seen, you know, we've seen things go sideways pretty badly because owners
just don't, they don't understand that.
But this is, this is a hundred percent, the owner has to be heavily, heavily,
heavily involved in this process.
And if you, as the owner are not able or willing to be involved in
that process, then just stop now.
Don't even bother going any further with looking for these programs
because you're gonna fail at it.
It's just, yeah, I mean, that's, that's harsh and blunt, but that's,
that's the truth of it, is like, as, as an owner, like you have to, if
you don't, just don't even bother.
It's just not worth anybody's time.
And you're wasting everybody's time by, by trying.
Yeah.
Even hiring a
Bryant Gillespie: consultant is going to not help you unless you're involved.
It just, no, just not.
Michael Riley: Yeah, we've worked with a lot of consultants too, who, who may
know the sign industry really well.
But like I said, every shop does things a little bit differently.
So just because that sign, that sign consultant or that industry consultant
understands the industry, they don't understand your business the way you do.
They, there's, and they may be able to push buttons and, and, you know, make the
software work, but it's probably not gonna be the way you need it to work for you.
And, and if you're not involved in that process, you're just, you're
just throwing money down the toilet.
Don't do that.
Don't be that person.
Yeah.
Bryant Gillespie: Cool.
Well man, this is a good, good, um, Episode to shake the cobwebs.
You know, it's been, it's almost like a topic that's
near and dear to us, isn't it?
Yeah.
It's, you know, like four or six weeks or, yeah, probably right before the
holiday since we've recorded an episode.
So, you know, I was a little nervous coming into this one, but , I, I, I think
this was a good conversation and I, you know, I hope it's helpful to a lot of
folks out there that are looking at shop management software this time of year.
You know, it's a, a hugely important piece of your business.
Uh, treat it with that respect.
You know, give it the time and attention it deserves, and it won't kick you to
the curb, or take your house and your dog and your car and all those things.
Michael Riley: Hey, hey, I got a, I got a terrible dad joke for you
Bryant Gillespie: in the show.
Hey, yeah, you, you know, I'm good . I'm game for Dad jokes.
Michael Riley: What do you get if you play a country music song backwards?
Oh, I know
Bryant Gillespie: this one.
I've already heard this one.
Is your
Michael Riley: wife back and your dog back and your house back and your car back?
Yes.
I think, sorry, I had to do it.
Yeah, yeah.
No, I
Bryant Gillespie: like that one.
Michael Riley: I love a good dad joke.
Bryant Gillespie: I, I think I've got a whole book downstairs that
somebody got me for Christmas.
Yeah, I
Michael Riley: do too.
Yeah.
. Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.
Right on man.
Well, glad to be back.
I hate that we didn't have Peter for this one.
I know he's got a ton of thoughts on it, but.
Good episode.
If you are interested in being a guest on the podcast, look, we want to talk to you.
We enjoy interviewing other guests just as much as we like talking about ourselves.
So send us an email at, Hey, better Sign Shop.
Or if you, uh, and maybe you know, somebody that you think
would be a good interview for the podcast, email us about them.
We'll reach out to them.
We'll do all the hard work there, pester them into joining the show.
If you are a shop owner, uh, make sure you jump in and join our Facebook group.
The Better Sign Shop Community.
It is exclusively for owners and management.
It's a safe space where you can talk about some of these things that we
talk about on the podcast, marketing employees, uh, management, pricing.
I know that's not allowed on a lot of other groups.
We allow it in ours because it's an important piece of your business.
So jump in, say hello.
We've got a lot of great community members there who are
on the same journey as you are.
Anything else?
I think we're good.
Michael Riley: Sounds good.
Bryant Gillespie: Perfect.
Getting better at that outro thing.
All right, guys.
, thank you.
We'll catch you on the next one.
I'll see you, Mike.
Bye
Michael Riley: guys.
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