1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:10,700 Welcome to another edition of the Always Be Testing podcast with your 2 00:00:10,700 --> 00:00:15,400 host, Ty De Grange. Get a guided tour of the world of growth, performance 3 00:00:15,500 --> 00:00:20,000 marketing, customer acquisition, paid media, and affiliate marketing. 4 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:25,400 We talk with industry experts and discuss experiments and their learnings in growth, 5 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:30,600 marketing, and life. Time to nerd out, check your biases at the door, and 6 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:35,000 have some fun talking about data driven growth and lessons learned. 7 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:40,400 Hello. Hello. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing podcast. 8 00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:45,300 I'm your host, Ty DeGrange, and I'm really excited to talk to David Rodnitsky 9 00:00:45,500 --> 00:00:50,500 today. What's up, David? How are you? Hey, Ty. Always good to talk to you. I think we've 10 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,800 probably known each other for about fifteen years at this point. Yeah. It sounds about right. It's been kind 11 00:00:55,800 --> 00:01:00,800 of awesome to to continue to stay in touch, and we got a chance to 12 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:05,700 collaborate, you know, years ago. And you've you've obviously done some awesome things. I think our 13 00:01:05,700 --> 00:01:10,300 audience will be really excited to talk about some of the learnings that you can share in in your 14 00:01:10,300 --> 00:01:15,200 evolution in performance marketing. Heck, yeah. Yeah. What's the latest? What's been 15 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,900 new? How are you? I'm good. I'm good. I'm, I guess gainfully 16 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,700 retired from, running an agency, and I'm now sort of going back to 17 00:01:24,700 --> 00:01:29,700 my early consulting days and trying to, find a way to to be a 18 00:01:29,700 --> 00:01:34,400 one man show. So I love it. A little different. I mean, I don't have an EA anymore, 19 00:01:34,500 --> 00:01:39,500 and I got to schedule my own meetings, but, you know, there's a lot of freedom too. I get to I 20 00:01:39,500 --> 00:01:44,300 get to do yoga every day and spend time with my family, so I can't really complain. I love 21 00:01:44,300 --> 00:01:49,300 that. It's so cool. I'm excited to dive into all of it and and props on the yoga. I think 22 00:01:49,300 --> 00:01:54,200 it's, one of the best things you can do. I don't I don't do enough of it. So for folks 23 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:59,100 out there that don't know, maybe would love to dive into how did you get 24 00:01:59,100 --> 00:02:03,300 into maybe just give us your background because you have a really interesting story. 25 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,700 Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll go back to even the nineteen nineties. That's how old I am. I 26 00:02:08,700 --> 00:02:13,600 graduated from law school in nineteen ninety nine from the University of Iowa, and I came out to the Bay Area 27 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:19,100 basically because I had a my best friend was living here and because there were mountains and I had no 28 00:02:19,100 --> 00:02:24,000 other plan other than just hang out with my best friend near mountains and I got lucky, 29 00:02:24,500 --> 00:02:29,500 in two thousand and there was this was the first dot com boom and there were companies that were just 30 00:02:29,500 --> 00:02:34,300 hiring warm bodies essentially And there was a dot com called Rentals dot com, 31 00:02:34,300 --> 00:02:39,300 which was doing property management stuff. And they hired me to be manager of strategy, 32 00:02:39,300 --> 00:02:43,600 which meant pretty much absolutely nothing. It just meant, like, do research papers and 33 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,800 do do analysis of the market, competitive research and stuff. And so I was doing all that, 34 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:54,200 and their director of marketing resigned and there was no one to do marketing. And these guys were 35 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,900 paying twenty five thousand dollars a month to a brand agency and twenty five thousand dollars a month to a PR 36 00:02:58,900 --> 00:03:03,700 agency, and they hadn't even launched a product yet. And so I kind of sat down and I looked at this and I was 37 00:03:03,700 --> 00:03:08,300 like, this is this can't be right. There's got to be something better than fifty thousand dollars a month to 38 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:13,300 these two agencies. And so I discovered a little company in Pasadena, 39 00:03:13,300 --> 00:03:18,100 California called GoTo dot Net, I believe is what it was called. And the concept that they were 40 00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:22,900 bringing to the market was rather than pay for an impression or pay for, 41 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:28,000 you know, a sponsorship, you pay per click. And so they have this search engine where you could go in and you 42 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:33,000 could type in any word, and you could say, I wanna buy the word house for rent or apartment for rent, 43 00:03:33,300 --> 00:03:38,200 and it might be three or four cents a click. And so I took this fifty thousand dollar budget. I 44 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:43,100 just threw it all into to go to, basically. And, again, this is the very early, early days 45 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:48,100 of pay click advertising, and, you know, literally, we were paying for the the most 46 00:03:48,100 --> 00:03:53,000 expensive terms out there were maybe thirty or forty cents, like, for the word, like, personal injury lawyer or 47 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,900 something like that. That company went belly up, when the dot com boom 48 00:03:57,900 --> 00:04:02,800 became a bust. And I was lucky enough to, Shocker. What's that? Yeah. Shocker. I know. I mean, 49 00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:07,800 they they raised, dollars twenty eight million from Sequoia and SoftBank, which, you know, 50 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,600 was a big deal, and they weren't able to ever sort of really release a product or do much of 51 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:17,500 anything, to be honest with you. So I ended up sort of having my exposure to to what 52 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:22,700 was later to become search engine marketing at that company. And over the next eight years, I worked at a 53 00:04:22,700 --> 00:04:27,700 variety of startups in Silicon Valley. I worked at a company called Fine Law, which is a legal website, worked at a company 54 00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:32,500 called Adteractive, which did lead generation, and then I worked at a company called Mercantilla, which did dropship, 55 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:38,000 e commerce similar to Wayfair. And when I was at Mercantilla, this was two thousand and seven. I'd now 56 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,600 been working at companies for seven years, progressively 57 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,600 getting more experience in online marketing generally and search engine marketing particularly. 58 00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:53,400 And at Mercantilla, when we were just talking offline about kids, my wife was pregnant 59 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:58,100 with our first son. I was traveling to India once a quarter to manage a team, 60 00:04:58,500 --> 00:05:03,300 and I just wasn't happy at the company for a variety of reasons. So in January of two thousand and eight, I 61 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:08,200 quit and just said I'm gonna do something else. And, my son was born in February of two thousand and eight, 62 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,900 so I quit a month before my son was born. I went down to a coffee shop in Pacifica, 63 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,900 California where I was living and I just kind of just let people know I'm not 64 00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:22,900 working for other people anymore. I'm just trying to figure out what's next, and I had a bunch of different ideas for 65 00:05:22,900 --> 00:05:27,900 what I was gonna build. Yeah. I literally I launched like a site of a wrinkle cream that was a 66 00:05:27,900 --> 00:05:32,700 basically affiliate lead gen site and, I had an idea around, 67 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,800 you know, food website, bunch of ideas, but then I got people kept calling me and saying, Can you 68 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:42,800 help with search engine marketing at my company? And I I kind of followed the advice of a friend of 69 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,800 mine, which was, you know, if people are knocking down your door saying they want to give you money for something, then maybe you should at 70 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:52,600 least look into it. And so I did, and I started offering SCM consulting 71 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:57,500 and I, it was, it was, it was kind of bad timing in the sense that it was the Great Recession. It was that moment in two 72 00:05:57,500 --> 00:06:02,500 thousand and eight where the mortgage industry collapsed and there were a lot of unemployed people 73 00:06:02,500 --> 00:06:07,400 and companies weren't spending money. But I found that I was, I guess I was charging such a little amount of money that a lot of 74 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:12,400 these companies were like, I'd rather just hire David for two thousand bucks a month than have to pay for a full 75 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:17,300 time employee. That's awesome. I started doing that, initially as an individual consultant, 76 00:06:17,300 --> 00:06:21,700 and then I realized that I had too much work to just do myself, and I brought in a partner. 77 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:27,000 And then, you know, we were able to hire a couple people. We got a small office. We went from 78 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,800 a coffee shop to a Regis temporary office to a six hundred square foot office and 79 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,800 then a thousand square foot office. And then along the way, we realized that, 80 00:06:37,700 --> 00:06:42,400 to win bigger clients, we needed to offer more than just search engine marketing. So we hired experts 81 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:47,300 in search engine optimization and in social media, paid social media, video 82 00:06:47,300 --> 00:06:51,800 advertising, mobile advertising, display advertising, analytics, conversion rate optimization, 83 00:06:52,500 --> 00:06:57,400 marketing strategy. We even did some affiliate, believe it or not, Tai. I know that's one of your areas of 84 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:02,300 expertise. Amazing. Yeah. I can't believe it. I know. It's shocking. I can't believe it. I mean, inter 85 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,800 interlopers coming into the field with, you know, with little knowledge. Ask me? 86 00:07:07,700 --> 00:07:12,700 Yeah. We're a jack of all trades. Alright. You know, sometimes they say a jack of all trades is a master of none, but 87 00:07:12,700 --> 00:07:17,600 we we tried to hire experts. Yep. And he sees areas and, you know, we grew the business. 88 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:22,500 And so, you know, I can we could talk separately about how we ended up 89 00:07:22,500 --> 00:07:27,400 selling the business and exiting. But yeah, before we got up to at our 90 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:32,200 height, we were at about five hundred people, managing about two or I think 91 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,800 close to three billion dollars of media spend for clients. So it's an amazing 92 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:41,300 accomplishment. That's the yada, yada, yada story at the end of the the growth 93 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:46,300 story. David, it's awesome to hear your progress. It was awesome to to witness 94 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:51,400 your growth. I mean, coffee shop and a one man show to five 95 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:55,500 hundred employees and billions managed is just is just unbelievable. 96 00:07:56,300 --> 00:08:01,200 What were some of the moments you had along that way? I know 97 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:05,900 we've kinda talked about it and you you've written some really interesting things about your journey 98 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:11,300 with that. Like, what were some of the ahas that you like to kind of instill on 99 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:16,300 folks and and leaders and practitioners? A bunch of things. I mean, I think number one 100 00:08:16,300 --> 00:08:20,800 is, you know, the importance of culture and not just, 101 00:08:21,300 --> 00:08:26,200 saying that you care about culture, but really living a culture. So one of the things that we did 102 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:31,000 was we really were trying to be really deliberate about what we defined 103 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,700 as our core values and also what what we had defined as our core promises to the 104 00:08:35,700 --> 00:08:40,600 team. So to give you an example couple examples. One was we really 105 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:45,600 instilled in the team what are the core values. We we we asked people to sort of memorize them and to think 106 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:50,400 about everything they did at the company from the lens of core values. So we we let 107 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:55,200 people know that you were gonna be promoted, hired, 108 00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:00,200 and fired based on whether you lived those core values. You know, we also had this concept of core 109 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:04,800 promises to the team, so it's not just about values that we care about, but what can you expect as a team 110 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:09,500 member? And so we tried to live our live those core promises very 111 00:09:09,500 --> 00:09:14,100 clearly as well. So as an example, you know, one of our core promises is was we don't work with 112 00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:19,000 jerks, also known as the no asshole rule rule. We had a couple 113 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:24,000 instances where we had, in particular with clients, and if you work in a service business, you're in 114 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,300 you're inevitably gonna work with people who are not respectful 115 00:09:28,900 --> 00:09:33,900 of the team, who treat you as a servant instead of a partner. And, we had some 116 00:09:33,900 --> 00:09:38,900 situations with some really big clients who were treating our team like like they were servants. 117 00:09:38,900 --> 00:09:43,500 And we, you know, talked to the client, gave them a chance to improve, and they didn't improve and we fired 118 00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:48,300 them. And, you know, I think that as a general lesson around 119 00:09:48,300 --> 00:09:53,300 growing the business, I mean, we were always trying to think about outcomes measured in years and not 120 00:09:53,300 --> 00:09:58,000 in quarters. And inevitably, when you fire one of your biggest clients, you're gonna have a bad 121 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:02,800 quarter. You know? You're you're gonna see a reduction in your in your growth, and, you know, 122 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:07,700 you may have a hard time hitting your target goal margin margin goals, but in the long term, 123 00:10:07,700 --> 00:10:12,400 you keep your people happy. So that's something that was pretty important to 124 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:17,400 us. You know, I think another thing and I've been sort of going through and I've been writing all this down at 125 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:22,400 my own newsletter just trying to remember the things that I think were important to us but there's a book called 126 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,800 the twenty two immutable laws of branding, and, I literally can only 127 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,700 remember one of the twenty two laws. The other ones are very good as well. I just don't remember them, but the law 128 00:10:32,700 --> 00:10:37,500 that I remember is if you can't be number one in a category, create a category, you can be number one in. And so when I 129 00:10:37,500 --> 00:10:42,400 started 3Q, I looked around and I said, like, what is where is it possible for me to be a leader, 130 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:47,100 for me to be number one? And I was like, well, I'm not gonna be the number one agency. 131 00:10:47,900 --> 00:10:52,700 I'm not gonna be the number one agency in North America. I won't be the number one digital 132 00:10:52,700 --> 00:10:57,700 agency. Probably it wouldn't be the won't be the number one SCM agency. I think we actually probably did get 133 00:10:57,700 --> 00:11:02,700 to that point at some point. But then I said, you know, what I have experience in is tech Silicon Valley 134 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:07,500 startups, and I could probably say that I'm the number one agency helping Silicon 135 00:11:07,500 --> 00:11:12,100 Valley startups. And so I sort of set that as my goal, and then I went about creating a marketing 136 00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:17,100 strategy to achieve that goal. So I did some of the things that you would sort of every 137 00:11:17,100 --> 00:11:22,100 agency does, you know, just network a lot, go to network events, 138 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:27,500 get connected through friends, have lunch with marketers. In Silicon Valley, I had lunch with a lot of investors, 139 00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:31,800 venture capitalists, You know, we hosted local events. We had, 140 00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:37,800 a client summit where we invited prospects as well. We did it at the Giants Ballpark couple times. We 141 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:42,800 did the forty niners ballpark. We brought in people like Barry Bonds and Jerry Jerry Rice to 142 00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:48,300 shake hands and have that local flavor. And then we even did some things that were kind of crazy. 143 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:52,500 We did a a billboard campaign on highway one hundred and one in Silicon Valley, which 144 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:58,300 mostly you see billboards for Apple and Google and, you know, Snowflake and there's little three q digital 145 00:11:58,700 --> 00:12:03,600 on the billboard. We did a campaign on NPR, marketplace locally. 146 00:12:04,100 --> 00:12:09,100 So we just kind of tried to triangulate around, like, my my goal was that some start startup 147 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:13,900 marketing director would go and talk to their friends, say, who should who should I hire 148 00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:18,800 for for online marketing? And and they should say three ks Digital, and then she'd go to some 149 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,700 message board, and she'd she'd see three ks Digital and then she'd ask her investor and they'd say three ks Digital and then 150 00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:28,700 she'd drive down one hundred and one and see three ks Digital and it was at and that was at the point where I was like well if that's 151 00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:33,700 happened then you know we did have these situations where invest a, potential client would call us up and basically 152 00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:38,600 say I don't need the sales pitch I've been told you guys are the guys Just tell me how 153 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:43,500 much it's gonna cost, and let's get started, and we would sign a contract within a day. So I've 154 00:12:43,500 --> 00:12:48,200 got I've got millions of other tips, but those are two that kinda come to mind as, like, sort of things 155 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,800 that that I think were was were pretty helpful in sort of helping us scale. That's 156 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:57,500 awesome. I love that. How did you kinda stay on top of the 157 00:12:57,500 --> 00:13:02,400 ever changing game while managing people, tech, 158 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:07,600 clients? As you kinda referenced earlier, you know, you and I know, like, 159 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:12,400 channels rise and fall, and there's is a constant, like, race to address new 160 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:17,400 tactics and strategies. Like, how do you find how did you manage that in your 161 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,300 growth at three q? Yeah. I mean, on one level, I think I was just a voracious learner. So I was 162 00:13:22,300 --> 00:13:27,300 just constantly reading everything I could. I mean, I used to back when, like, your my Yahoo 163 00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:32,200 page was, like, the place that you went to get all your news feeds, your RSS feeds, I had 164 00:13:32,300 --> 00:13:37,300 thirty marketing news feeds, and every morning, I was reading every single one. Search engine land, search 165 00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:42,200 engine journal, you know, you name it. I had Brad Geddes. I mean, all these guys who are, 166 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:47,200 like, the providing great information about the the the space. I was reading everything 167 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:52,000 I could. The other thing that I did was I I kind of had an adage in my head, which 168 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:57,000 was when I heard something from a client, two or three two or three different clients telling me the 169 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,600 same thing, that was probably a sign that it's something we should invest in. And so, 170 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:07,100 you know, case in point, I mean, like, you know, in around two thousand and eleven or twelve, I had started 171 00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:12,100 having more and more clients say, hey. You guys offer Google SEM. That's great, but what about 172 00:14:12,100 --> 00:14:16,700 Facebook? And I was like, well, I don't know. I mean, it doesn't seem like it's not it's not in my wheelhouse, 173 00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:22,500 but I should look into it. And so, you know, I realized and and in re researching it that 174 00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:27,500 this was gonna be a major opportunity. And so we went out and we found the best expert we could externally who had already been 175 00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:32,400 doing it and we created a practice. Awesome. So that's, I mean, I think the the number one 176 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:37,400 way that we sort of identify where to grow. I would would also say that, I mean, the flip side of that, I guess the negative 177 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,300 side, if you will, is as we scale the business, and this is common for almost 178 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:47,200 every agency, as you scale, you start to take on bigger clients. And bigger clients, 179 00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:52,400 typically want one throat to choke. And so and it's and it's some of it's, you could 180 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,000 say it's, like, big company laziness or whatever, but some of it's just practicality. Like, if you're 181 00:14:57,100 --> 00:15:01,700 managing a five hundred million dollar budget and you've got twenty different channels and ten different 182 00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:06,600 softwares, you don't have time to have thirty meetings a week with your vendors. So you naturally 183 00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:11,400 just move towards as few as you can. And so we lost a couple of deals 184 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:17,000 where we were doing incredible work on the, let's say, the SEM stuff for 185 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:22,000 a client. But some big agency came in, and the client would even say to us, like, look. We know they're not gonna 186 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:27,000 be as good as you are at SEM, but I just can't have all these meetings. I can't manage all these people. So we're going 187 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,800 with big clients, big agencies. So Yeah. That was also a forcing function for us as well, sort of 188 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:36,600 realizing that, like, I don't ever wanna be in a situation where I provide superior results and I 189 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:41,600 lose because of a reason outside of those results. And so that made that made us 190 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:46,400 change some things and go after some of these additional channels. How did you continue to 191 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:51,400 maintain the quality of that that expertise? It seems like there was was 192 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:56,000 something that was definitely part of it. The results were there. What was the kind 193 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,800 of somewhat of the how behind that in your view? Yeah. I mean, I think first of all, I, 194 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:06,300 I've always admired the Netflix culture deck deck, the original 195 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:11,100 one. One One of the things they say in that deck is, above average performers 196 00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:15,900 deserve above average compensation. Adequate performers deserve a generous severance package. 197 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:21,000 And it feels kind of cruel, but it really is, I think, crucial because I think the lesson 198 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,800 that that I've taken away from managing people is that A players want to work with A players, 199 00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:30,700 number one, and that B players, you know, not only do the A players leave, but they 200 00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:35,700 oftentimes the A players who are who stay around have to do the work of the b players you know we had 201 00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:40,500 a guy on our team who was one of our senior leaders who was a former semi 202 00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:45,300 professional soccer player, and we were having debate one day about a 203 00:16:45,300 --> 00:16:50,300 versus b players. He said to me, said, you know what? I think it's okay to have some b players because 204 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:55,500 maybe they're they're just nice people and, you know, they get along well with clients, and I I think it's good. And 205 00:16:55,500 --> 00:17:00,400 I said, you know, you're a former soccer player. Let me just ask you from a soccer perspective. 206 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:05,100 If there's eleven people on the field and nine of them are A players and two of them are B 207 00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:10,000 players, what happens? He goes, oh well, the A players have to cover for the B players and they can't play through 208 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,900 what their positions they're intended to play. And I said that that's exactly the problem. So we were pretty, 209 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,800 I guess, pretty relentless about, first of all, promoting great people and really 210 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:24,800 just trying to be proactive about giving them raises and giving them responsibility, not 211 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:29,800 waiting until they sort of their annual review necessarily, just saying, look, you're a superstar. We're going to keep pushing you. 212 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:35,000 And then also for people who weren't, for whatever reason, working out, 213 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,700 helping them find an opportunity somewhere else. I I would also say related to that that I, 214 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:45,800 really believe in the notion of trying to hire people smarter than you. You know, I just I try not to have any 215 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:50,800 ego, and I I've loved I've loved it when after a couple years in the business, there were numerous people in 216 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:55,800 the team who knew way more about online marketing than I did. And I think at our at our height as we scaled, I 217 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,800 mean we had I remember we had like twenty or thirty people on the team who had been with us for at least seven 218 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,500 or eight years. We may still, I don't I don't know. It's awesome. And, you know, you only keep those 219 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:10,500 people by, again, giving them lots of opportunity, surrounding them with A players, 220 00:18:10,700 --> 00:18:15,500 and creating a great culture that they are gonna want to show up to to work for. I 221 00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:20,400 love it. That's awesome. How did some of the maybe transitioning a little 222 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,700 bit? Obviously, there's so many learnings, you know, in building up something so large. 223 00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:30,500 How did kind of your new opportunity come about? Maybe you can help, you know, 224 00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:35,300 fill in that transition and and kind of what you're working on now because it's it sounds obviously 225 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:40,400 fascinating and, you've already written a book. A lot lot of things have happened and you've achieved, 226 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:45,000 but maybe share a little bit about that, some of those ahas that led to the 227 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:50,000 transition into what you're what you're working on now. Yeah. I mean, I think when I started 228 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:55,000 the business, I really just mainly just didn't wanna work for someone else because I I 229 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,900 had found that I kind of lose the political battles when I'm an employee, and I hate the politics, 230 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:05,000 and I lose. That's a bad combination. So I really just started, you know, just because I was like, if I'm the 231 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:10,000 boss, at least at least I can control the politics. At least, you know, I can sort 232 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,900 of in in the case of a tie, I win. Yep. But as we scaled, you know, 233 00:19:14,900 --> 00:19:19,900 by twenty fourteen, we were up to about one hundred and fifty employees, and 234 00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:24,200 we started getting inquiries from third parties who wanted to 235 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,800 to buy us. You know, for me, I never thought I'd be in this situation, but suddenly I 236 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:34,600 had this this question, which is do I just keep growing this thing and sort of 237 00:19:34,900 --> 00:19:39,700 doubling down and, you know, betting it all on on red and see if I can turn this into a billion dollar 238 00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:44,500 company? Or do I take some risk off the table to risk de risk myself 239 00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:49,300 and work find a partner to sell the business to? And I felt 240 00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:54,000 like I'm sort of a conservative guy. I guess I was I was sort of raised in middle class 241 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:59,400 Midwestern roots, and I was like, if I can find a partner that does three 242 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:04,300 things, does what's best for employees, does what's best for clients, and does what's what's best 243 00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:09,200 for shareholders, I think that it's it's a good time for me to to make a move. So I end 244 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:14,000 up in twenty fifteen selling the company. I did not know after when I sold the company 245 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:19,000 that about two two and a half years after we sold it, the company that bought us 246 00:20:19,100 --> 00:20:24,100 decided for a variety of reasons that they needed to sell us, and, they were not able to 247 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:29,000 find a a really good offer. So we ended up coming as then as a management team and buying the 248 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:33,900 company back from the company that sold us. And then a year after 249 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:38,900 that, we got even more interest from from acquirers, and we did another transaction where we sold to a 250 00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:43,800 couple of private equity firms. And then a year after that, or actually I guess it was three 251 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:48,300 years after that, we ended up, selling to a large Dutch 252 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:53,100 agency called Debt. So from about twenty fourteen to 253 00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:57,800 twenty twenty two, I was involved in in the purchase of one agency and the sale 254 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:02,500 of my own agency three times and learned a ton along the 255 00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:07,400 way. Mergers and acquisitions is its own language, its own rule 256 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:12,400 set. You know, it's like nothing that you've ever experienced as a founder. 257 00:21:13,100 --> 00:21:18,100 And so when I finally sort of left three q and I I looked back and I said, you know, I mean, obviously, I think I 258 00:21:18,100 --> 00:21:22,900 can provide guidance to agency founders about an agency and founders in 259 00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:27,800 general about how to scale a business. But the area that I thought was most interesting and that is maybe lacking the 260 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,200 most is finding guidance around this mergers and acquisition process. And 261 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:37,400 what I find so interesting is that for an agency founder, a sale of their 262 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:42,100 business is the biggest financial transaction of their life, and it's also a very emotional transaction. I 263 00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:46,800 mean, it's one way to think about selling your business is you're selling your purpose and your identity for 264 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:51,500 cash, And I think a lot of people don't really think about that. So it's a it's it can be a big 265 00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:56,500 windfall financially, but can also be emotionally very challenging. And for most founders, it's the 266 00:21:56,500 --> 00:22:01,100 only time in their life they'll do that. And they're on the other side of the transaction are people who have done this, in some 267 00:22:01,100 --> 00:22:06,100 cases, dozens of times. And so you're at a disadvantage both in terms of a lack of knowledge and 268 00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:10,800 a lack of experience. And so I'm trying to start a consulting firm that 269 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,800 really sits, stands with the founder, puts kind of puts myself in their shoes, 270 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:20,700 and as they go through this process helps them sort of decide on these really important questions. Do I even 271 00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:25,400 want to sell? How much do I need to be happy? Does this buyer 272 00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:31,000 represent my core values, and will it be a successful transaction? Do I want to stay with the company after it after 273 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,800 it sells? If I don't want to stay, what do I want to do next? How do I transition out of the business? It's 274 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,800 just I think I actually created a list, and I think I came up with, like, one hundred and twelve questions that you really need to answer 275 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:46,000 while you're going through the m and a process. Someday I'll publish that in a blog post or something. And 276 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:50,800 so that's what I'm trying to do. I mean, I think it's a it's role that doesn't currently exist. There are people who are 277 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:55,800 investment bankers whose job is to sell your business. There's mergers and acquisition attorneys whose job is 278 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,700 to make sure that you're protected when you sign a contract, but there's not really that founder whisperer 279 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:05,800 role. And so I'm I'm creating something new. We'll see over the next couple of months whether 280 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:10,700 I'm I'm onto something or I'm just, crazy and and people don't need it. I love it. I 281 00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:15,300 think there's definitely a a great great need and opportunity. And like you said, 282 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:20,400 you've been there, you've been through it so many times, and there's all these other parties that 283 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,900 have either done it a ton on the other side or kinda looking at it from more of a legal or contractual view. 284 00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:30,800 And so to think about it holistically and and take into consideration the core values and 285 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:35,700 financials and what's best for the founders is really, I think, compelling. 286 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,800 What's the biggest mistake you see in founders thinking through this or 287 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,800 navigating the situation? And maybe what's the biggest, trap or or thing that 288 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,700 you think we might wanna caution folks to avoid? I think that it probably all comes down to 289 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:55,500 money in different ways. Number one is I think that founders don't really think about 290 00:23:55,500 --> 00:24:00,500 what as I said before, do I wanna set trade identity and purpose for money? And then how much money is is 291 00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:04,600 that trade worth? And so they sort of go into the M and A process 292 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:10,100 maybe with sort of a half baked perspective, well, I'll just go through this process. 293 00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:14,800 I'll just see how much money people are offering me, and maybe it'll work for me, maybe it won't. 294 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:19,600 And it's a ton of time and it's a ton of commitment, and it's a huge emotional decision. And so I 295 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,600 think that like, there are for a lot of founders, the answer is that you shouldn't sell now and 296 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,600 for some founders that you should never sell, that you know your life will be negatively 297 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:34,600 affected even if you have all this money in the bank. So I think that's part of it. I think the other part of it 298 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:39,600 is when people are choosing the partner that they're going to sell to, there also is 299 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,300 the money factor can become very overwhelming. I mean, you might have one 300 00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:49,100 company offering you ten million dollars one company offering you eight million dollars and one company offering you six 301 00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:53,900 million dollars and the the obvious knee jerk reaction as well is go for the most expensive 302 00:24:54,300 --> 00:24:59,100 seller. But this isn't like selling a used, you know, iPhone on eBay. I mean, it's 303 00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:04,000 there's so much more that goes into it because you're gonna in most cases, when you sell, you're not 304 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,700 just you're usually the the buyer wants you to stay around for anywhere from two to four years afterwards. 305 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:14,100 So if you sell to someone who turns out to be a complete jerk, you've got four years of your life that you're 306 00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:19,000 going to spend in misery. And there's also the chances that you sell to a jerk that 307 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,800 they do everything they can to prevent you from getting your full payment. So it's a lot of that sort 308 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,700 of just really trying to step back and look at the thirty thousand foot perspective on what you want in 309 00:25:28,700 --> 00:25:33,700 life and what you want to do in the in the short term and the long term that I think people 310 00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:38,700 don't really pay attention to. Obviously on the legal side there's all 311 00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:43,400 sorts of very important clauses that you have to be careful about. 312 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:48,300 You know, if you've seen the movie, The Social Network, there's that scene where Oh, 313 00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:53,300 yeah. Eduardo Severin gets told by the lawyers that his I don't remember 314 00:25:53,300 --> 00:25:58,100 the exact number. It was, like, his thirty percent stake has been reduced to three tenths of a percent or something. It's, 315 00:25:58,100 --> 00:26:03,000 like, they, like, reduced his valuation by, like, a thousand times. You know, at the end of the day, 316 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,500 I tell people, all you can do is do a deal with people you trust and work with great lawyers, 317 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,900 but you never know when you can do a deal with someone that you really love and then that person gets 318 00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:17,700 fired three months later and a new person comes in and says, oh, I'm not honoring this commitment. So 319 00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:23,200 having a legal document that really buttons up every scenario I like the phrase, trust in Allah 320 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,900 but watch your camels, you know, that's really crucial and, and can really trip people 321 00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:32,800 up. That's a it's a great phrase. It's a great phrase. Yeah. Are 322 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:37,600 there things that you've seen that have worked well in the diligence process for founders 323 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:43,200 where there's a little bit of that validation or getting to know period to get 324 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:48,100 to in the weeds. But it sounds like that a cultural fit and that alignment and 325 00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:53,000 that trust is pretty paramount in the process to determine if this 326 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:57,900 makes sense for a team to to sell or or founder to sell. What's the 327 00:26:58,300 --> 00:27:03,200 anything you found that can work there to to get to that answer as opposed to rolling 328 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,800 the dice and just judging off of couple chats? Yeah. 329 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,900 Couple of things I would say is, first of all, I think due diligence on the potential 330 00:27:12,900 --> 00:27:17,900 buyer is really important. And I would say, in particular, trying to do your own due diligence 331 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:22,900 and not just do not just looking at whatever the buyer has given you. So to give you an example, in 332 00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:27,900 one of our sales, we were on the one yard line to sell to a buyer, and I 333 00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:32,500 was pretty happy about everything I'd heard from the buyer and 334 00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:37,700 felt like it was a good fit for the for the business. But I decided to call a friend of 335 00:27:37,700 --> 00:27:42,700 mine who had sold his agency to the same buyer previously, and, I said what was it 336 00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:47,700 like? He said well the buyer really cares about profit maximization, 337 00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:53,500 and so they told us that we couldn't do any training of our team because it wasn't a profit driven 338 00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:58,500 activity. I was like, wow. That is not 339 00:27:58,500 --> 00:28:03,200 a good sign. I mean, that's a for many reasons, you know, you'll do a bad job with your 340 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,800 clients, you'll lose team members, You know, it's not it's not part of my ethos as a as a 341 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,800 founder. So because of that due diligence call, which obviously wasn't someone that the buyer had given to 342 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,800 me, it's someone that I had done my own third party digging and connecting the dots, we ended 343 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,700 up saying no to that buyer and choosing a different path. So that's that's one thing 344 00:28:22,700 --> 00:28:27,200 that I think is really important the other thing I'll say just is it's kind of a legal 345 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,700 issue but you know when you're selling signing a contract the first stage 346 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:37,000 really to formalizing a relationship with the buyer is to sign a letter of intent or an 347 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:41,800 LOI. And the letter of intent is always non binding. It's not something that you 348 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,800 can point to in court as evidence that they promised me this or that. But but it's 349 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,600 a really good indication of how the buyer is going to treat you. 350 00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:56,500 So if there's something in the you should I really recommend to people 351 00:28:56,500 --> 00:29:01,200 to be to write very extensive letters of intent and really ask the tough questions 352 00:29:01,700 --> 00:29:06,500 at that point and not during the negotiation period when you're actually signing the contract. So you could say, like, 353 00:29:06,500 --> 00:29:11,300 hey, I'm gonna be a minority owner of this company. Are you gonna sign up to 354 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:17,000 have a fiduciary duty to protect my interests? Fiduciary means that you 355 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,500 act as if someone else's money is your money. And if the buyer says, 356 00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:27,100 no, no way, and heck I'm in I'm in it, you know, you write a good contract and that's all that matters. 357 00:29:27,100 --> 00:29:32,100 I'm not putting that in the LOI or the contract. You know, that's kind of a warning sign. You know, just seeing that 358 00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:37,100 the buyer is willing to sort of address your needs in that early stage in the LOI, even if 359 00:29:37,100 --> 00:29:42,100 it's not binding, I think it can be a really good indicator of whether this is gonna be someone who's gonna truly partner with 360 00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:46,800 you or who somewhere down the road is gonna do a little bit of a left turn that you didn't expect where 361 00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:52,300 it could be advantageous to them and not to you. No. That's amazing. 362 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,700 This is I can see you have so much value that you have to share and 363 00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:02,500 it's it's pretty impressive similarly, you know, you you even wrote a book 364 00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:07,500 and and that's kind of amazing. How did that kinda come to be and and is 365 00:30:07,500 --> 00:30:12,500 that kind of part of the new venture or how do you view that? So I I was in 366 00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:17,500 a, I had a group of, agency founders who had all all of us had sold 367 00:30:17,500 --> 00:30:22,200 our agencies. So we were like the ex founders club or meeting for 368 00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:27,200 founders anonymous or something like that. And, I love it. And we were all talking, and we were all 369 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:32,000 sharing these stories on the phone about, you know, what had worked for our deals, what hadn't worked. And at one point, I 370 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:36,900 said, you know, guys, no one has written a book on this. And don't you think it wouldn't would it have been valuable 371 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,400 when we were selling our agency if we had had a book that give us the step by step, here's what to expect next, here's the 372 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,900 pitfalls, and they all kind of shook their head in agreement. And one of the guys from the affiliate world, 373 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:52,100 Bob Glaser, I said, you know, Bob, would you like to go in with in on this with me? And he said, well, I can't 374 00:30:52,100 --> 00:30:57,100 really write the book, but I'll be your sort of your executive editor, and I'll I'll put in, 375 00:30:57,100 --> 00:31:01,900 you know, a lot of effort on the editing side. I said, great. So I I went about writing it, and then, 376 00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:07,000 you know, Bob helped me edit it, and we published it. And, yeah, it's it's connected to the consulting idea because, I mean, at the end of the 377 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:12,000 day, I mean, you know, I'm charging fifty bucks for the book. If you're serious about selling 378 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,800 your agency or even your service business, fifty bucks seems like a no brainer. It's a lot cheaper than hiring 379 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,700 me. So it may be the case that, you know, in nine out of ten cases, people don't even need to hire 380 00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:26,500 me. Just read the book and that will get you enough of the way down the field that 381 00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:31,400 you'll be smart enough to make good decisions. But at the same time, I also know, as as 382 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,400 you do as well, that, there's a difference between reading something and doing something. And, you know, I 383 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,300 could give you a manual to on how to fly a 07:47. You could study it for a month, but you're 384 00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:46,300 probably not gonna then a month later go and try to fly it. So I think it's at the end of the day, I 385 00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:51,300 think it's a calling card for me. That's kind of the point of the book. I mean, I think people will read it, and hopefully they'll say this guy knows 386 00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:56,300 a lot about the agency world. And if I'm gonna in the m and a world, if I'm gonna sell my business, I 387 00:31:56,300 --> 00:32:01,200 better talk to him. I love it. It sounds like you've had some awesome, you know, 388 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:06,100 learnings and, you know, epiphanies through this journey, and, yeah, I love the 389 00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:11,000 the reference you made previously. It sounds like some pretty cool world travel and 390 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:15,900 adventures with you and your family. You share kind of what's been some of the 391 00:32:15,900 --> 00:32:20,900 best memories or trips or or adventures that you guys have had? Yeah. I'd say 392 00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:25,800 two examples. One was when when COVID happened, we were all locked inside for a while, and and I 393 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,800 had really sort of stepped down as being the CEO. At that point, I was just kind of advisor, so I had a lot of free 394 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,400 time. So my younger son and I, in the course of about four months, once they opened 395 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,200 up, let let you leave your house, we did I think thirty eight parks, 396 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:45,200 hiking parks in the Bay Area, so we we literally sort 397 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:50,100 of almost any park on the map we did. We went to these like places where you can 398 00:32:50,100 --> 00:32:55,000 jump off limestone cliffs into into fresh water and awesome my son's really into 399 00:32:55,000 --> 00:33:00,000 snakes so we saw we did a lot of hikes where we found snakes then then earlier this year actually when I 400 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:05,000 was for my younger son again I've done stuff for my older son as well but my younger son is really an adventurer 401 00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:10,400 we did a three week trip to Africa again his interest is snakes so 402 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,200 we were able to go to the Kalahari Desert and, on our third day there we, they 403 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:20,000 let us get out of the car and we walked up to a, puff adder which is the 404 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,900 deadliest snake in Africa and then we found out that behind it was a Mozambique spitting cobra which 405 00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:29,900 can blind you from twenty seven feet away with its venom so my son was on cloud nine that 406 00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:34,600 we were able to be within five feet of these two, two of the ten deadliest snakes in Africa 407 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:39,600 so that's a I don't know. For many people, that probably isn't an upside to having more free time, but 408 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,500 it is for my family. It's not gonna make everyone's bucket list. But for your 409 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,500 son, he was like, I'm good. Some people might kick the bucket after seeing the puff out or if there's they don't get out of the way. 410 00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:54,500 Literally. Yeah. We, the things we do for our children. Yes. 411 00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:59,400 So you'll get hopefully, you'll get this opportunity too, Ty. As your child gets older, he'll have specific 412 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,300 interests. He's just now crawling, so we we're enjoying this period while we can. Keep him away from 413 00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:09,100 the the snakes if that's the case. Yeah. We've kept our head on a swivel a few 414 00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:14,100 times in Texas, and I've had to I bet. Get one kill one already to 415 00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:18,700 to avoid it from from hanging out with my daughter, but we've been lucky so 416 00:34:18,700 --> 00:34:23,500 far. Well, I will say that I I in the last couple of years, I've learned a tremendous amount about snakes just 417 00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:28,300 from walking around with my son, and they're actually very, they really wanna get out of your way. I 418 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:35,200 I mean, the rattlesnakes especially. For sure. We see this summer we've probably seen fifty rattlesnakes because we go on a trail where we always 419 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:40,200 see them and and they always act the same. I mean, they they have no interest in being anywhere near humans. The only reason 420 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,900 that they attack is if they're if you if you mistakenly step on them or you're cornered 421 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,100 Corner. Yeah. We have a separate podcast about snakes. I've got a lot of knowledge. 422 00:34:51,100 --> 00:34:56,000 Part two will be all about snakes. I mean, when I I was a kid I feel like I was obsessed with 423 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,900 reptiles as well. I don't know. It I didn't like it wasn't a phase that lasted forever, but I 424 00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:05,700 had a lizard and was all about reading about different salamanders and snakes 425 00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:10,700 and and all that so They're pretty cool I have to say, you know? Yeah. For sure. They're 426 00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:15,400 all cool. For sure. That's awesome. You know, you you kinda lived and breathed the 427 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:20,200 agency story, something back back to that. What are some 428 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:25,200 things that you think agencies are faced with now that maybe is different from a 429 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:30,100 few 05:10 years ago? There certainly seems to be more players in the space and it's 430 00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:34,800 it's gotten more sophistication. I'm curious to get your perspective on like what 431 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,600 trans agencies need to be both pretty mindful of. Yeah. I wrote a I wrote a blog 432 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,400 post, like, eight years ago now called the Search Engine Marketing Agency is Dying and What to Do About 433 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:49,100 It. And I just sort of tried to point to some trends that I thought were worrying to agencies. 434 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:54,200 And you just mentioned some of them. I mean, number one is the number of competitors out there, the number of 435 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,400 the number of people who are trained as experts in online marketing. I mean, there was a point again when you and I 436 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:04,300 started, we're old hands. You know, there were you would go to a conference, there'd be two hundred people at the conference, and 437 00:36:04,300 --> 00:36:09,200 that was the entirety of people who had expertise on a subject. Right? Yeah. I mean, if you went to affiliate 438 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:14,200 summit in two thousand and six, there were probably two hundred people there, and now there's twenty 439 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:19,100 thousand or whatever. Mhmm. So there's just more competition. That's number one. Mhmm. The second thing is that, you 440 00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:22,900 know, prices continue to go up, for buying media or for 441 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,600 really if it's not prices, it's competition. I mean, getting ranked in search engine optimization is 442 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,500 harder. So So the sort of the arbitrage opportunity is gone to some degree, and that 443 00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:38,400 just makes it harder to sort of justify your profit. I would say the the third thing that is a trend 444 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,900 is that the all the platforms are increasingly using, 445 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,200 algorithms, AI, automation to, on the one hand, make 446 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:53,100 things easier, but on the other hand, displace experts or to level the playing field. So 447 00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:57,900 I think that, you know, my expertise is an SEM. I mean, there was a time in two thousand 448 00:36:57,900 --> 00:37:02,300 and seven or two thousand and six when I created methods to upload 449 00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:07,600 thousands of keywords a day very granular keywords with with very precise 450 00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:13,300 landing pages and an ad text and bids. And, you know, 451 00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:17,600 Google has simultaneously taken away a lot of that granularity. And 452 00:37:17,900 --> 00:37:22,900 also, so so that gives it's a disadvantage for experts and also just created automation so 453 00:37:22,900 --> 00:37:27,800 that average advertisers can do about as well as experts. So 454 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:33,000 one of the ways that I describe it when I think about paid media is when I started in the 455 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,900 business in the early 2000s, success was probably eighty percent human 456 00:37:37,900 --> 00:37:42,700 and twenty percent technology. Today, it's probably eighty percent technology and twenty 457 00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:47,500 percent human. And so I still think that that means that there's a need 458 00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:52,400 for the humans because at the end of the day, if you can have a twenty percent improvement in your performance, 459 00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:57,600 that's still valuable. But it's not what it was twenty years 460 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,600 ago or fifteen years ago where it was eighty percent humans and there were less humans doing it. So 461 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,300 I guess if there's good news, I mean, I don't want to be a completely Debbie Downer here. The good news is 462 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:12,700 that like digital marketing was under indexed from two thousand 463 00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:17,700 to twenty fifteen, call it. People a lot of advertisers were still stuck in, 464 00:38:18,300 --> 00:38:23,300 in some cases, literally yellow pages and newspapers and magazines. I got 465 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:28,200 my my mother-in-law gave me a subscription to a photography magazine, a 466 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:33,000 print subscription, and I the thing is, like, fifteen pages long now 467 00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:37,900 because there's no advertisements anymore. It's like, no one buys print. So the good 468 00:38:37,900 --> 00:38:42,700 news is that everyone's woken up to the fact that digital marketing is should be way more than fifty 469 00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:47,400 percent of your budget. So that means the agency should continue to get pretty big 470 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:52,300 budgets to spend. And I think we still have a ways to go before 471 00:38:52,300 --> 00:38:57,200 we've fully seen, you know, how much spend should be on digital marketing. It's 472 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:02,000 gonna keep growing. So that's that's an upside. Yeah. Yeah. I think the rising tide lifts all 473 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,300 boats and the industry getting better is certainly been something we've observed 474 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:11,500 generally. So it's like, while there is some of that challenging, you know, headwind 475 00:39:11,500 --> 00:39:15,600 conversation, which is real, to address and prepare for, I think there's absolutely 476 00:39:16,700 --> 00:39:21,700 still a lot of opportunity in this space in terms of how many good practitioners there 477 00:39:21,700 --> 00:39:26,600 are, how many trusted practitioners there are versus how many new businesses are coming online, 478 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,000 how many businesses are modernizing, how many businesses are expanding their digital 479 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:36,400 marketing efforts daily. So totally hear you there. That's awesome. 480 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:41,600 Are you seeing anything interesting in terms of, I think we talked about this a little bit, 481 00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:46,500 like, folks that are building out in house teams, folks that are looking to external, you know, 482 00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:51,400 source. I feel like that trend kinda continues to ebb and flow and depends 483 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:56,300 who you talk to in the the situation. What are your observations there? Yeah. I mean, 484 00:39:56,300 --> 00:40:01,200 it's it's always been a debate. You know, I think that there are advantages 485 00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:06,100 to both in house and to agencies. I think the advantage to an in house team 486 00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:11,000 is is always that that team is going to know your business so much better than 487 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:16,000 an agency. And so that means, you know, if you're a whatever, 488 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,800 if you're an online university, it means knowing that in January people 489 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,800 have New Year's resolutions that they they want to go back to school, and you better have your budget ready, and 490 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,700 you better have that sort of messaging in place. I mean, you just know that intuitively if you're working in house 491 00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:35,900 at a company, and your agency may or may not know that. So I think it's important 492 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:41,200 to leverage the strategic knowledge of in house teams. By the same token, 493 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:46,600 agencies typically have much more knowledge of channels. So an agency 494 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:51,500 that's a search engine marketing agency is living and breathing Google advertising all day long, and they're usually 495 00:40:51,500 --> 00:40:56,400 doing it every person in the agency is working with between, let's say, four and six clients. So 496 00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:01,100 they're learning faster, not only because they're spending more time in this in the system but because they're getting 497 00:41:01,100 --> 00:41:06,100 inputs from multiple clients what's working, what's not working. So to me, it's the answer 498 00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:11,100 is really always that it's a hybrid approach. You need some in house people to keep the strategy, 499 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,600 lamp burning bright, and you also need some agency people to constantly be cutting edge on the 500 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:21,600 channels. I do think it's a little risky to sort of to do one or the other 501 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:26,500 for that reason. I love that. I couldn't agree more. That's I mean, seeing where that's 502 00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:32,000 seeing that work firsthand on so many ways in house and as an agency, so I love that. You've 503 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:36,500 dropped some good book recommendations here. You've got your own book. But what is, 504 00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:41,300 what's another maybe one or two book suggestions for for the audience? You've, you've got some 505 00:41:41,300 --> 00:41:46,300 good ones. Yeah. I would say my standby is probably, Influence 506 00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:51,100 by Cialdini, Robert Cialdini, Influence the Power of Persuasion. That book 507 00:41:51,100 --> 00:41:56,000 just, just really sort of blew my mind when I first read it about little things you can 508 00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,700 do to, to influence behavior. And then I would say a Seth 509 00:42:00,700 --> 00:42:05,700 Godin book I like a lot is Purple Cow which, kind of goes back to my notion of if you can't be 510 00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:10,300 number one in a category, create a category you can be number one in and, you know, he just talks about 511 00:42:10,300 --> 00:42:15,300 how at some point whatever, you know, in a crowded market people can't differentiate. I I mean, you've seen 512 00:42:15,300 --> 00:42:20,200 one cow, you've seen them all. And so how do you become a purple cow so that people really sort of you 513 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:25,100 stand out? That's a good one. Love it. I think, there was a recent brand 514 00:42:25,100 --> 00:42:30,100 that I think went full all in on that, and I think they had, I wanna 515 00:42:30,100 --> 00:42:35,100 say it was one of the credit monitoring. They had was it John Cena and a and a actual purple 516 00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:40,100 cow in the ad? I've heard of this book, so I'll have to have to finish it. And, you know, he did a great when he 517 00:42:40,100 --> 00:42:45,100 pro when he first released it, he sent it in a milk carton, a purple milk carton, which, again, is 518 00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:50,100 just, like, living the brand. It's, like, how many times if you if you receive a milk carton in the mail, you're 519 00:42:50,100 --> 00:42:54,500 gonna open it. Just a marketing whiz. That's such a smart move. Totally is. Love it. 520 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:59,600 Yeah. David, I feel like we could talk on this this stuff for hours. You dropped so much great 521 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:04,500 advice and information, you know, for folks that are interested to learn more about you and, 522 00:43:04,700 --> 00:43:09,400 you know, some of the stuff that you're working on. Where where can people find you? My 523 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:14,200 website is agentic shift, a g e n t I c shift 524 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:19,100 dot com. And you can reach me at david at agentic shift. And then not really 525 00:43:19,100 --> 00:43:23,900 I'm not really into x or, Instagram or anything like that, but I am on LinkedIn. And I have 526 00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:28,800 a a newsletter that I publish on LinkedIn and another one that I'm publishing through the agentic shift website. 527 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:33,500 So love to connect with any of your listeners. Love it. Really appreciate you. 528 00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:38,500 Always a pleasure. It was awesome conversation and look forward to more. Thank you, Ty. Always great 529 00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:40,900 to catch up with you. You too. Thanks, David.