CAILIN: Welcome everyone to Faith and Purpose podcast.
Each episode of this podcast contains the personal testimony of an ordinary person
transformed by an extraordinary God.
My name is Caitlin and I'm here to introduce this podcast
for my friend Jesse Duke.
Jesse is a husband, father, author, life recovery guide, lay counselor,
and small group leader, but his most important role is disciple.
As a disciple of Jesus.
Jesse created this podcast to help other believers tell their faith stories.
We'll be hearing the personal testimonies of all sorts of people
who have one thing in common, Jesus has transformed their lives.
Jesus used parables because he created us to learn best through story.
And as we listen to how God has worked in others lives, we find encouragement
and inspiration for our own faith walk.
Whether you are already a believer, or just a curious seeker, we believe that
as you listen to these stories, you will be encouraged on your own faith journey.
We are sure that God can speak to you through one of these episodes, and that
you will see that our Heavenly Father truly works all things together for
our good, When we simply love and trust him if you are currently going through
a trial We believe that you will come to see that your troubles Heartbreaks
and failures are not gravestones, but stepping stones into new life in Christ.
Here's Jesse with today's guest
Jesse: Welcome everybody to the Faith and Purpose podcast.
Today my longtime friend Frank K is here to tell his story, and
I'm really looking forward to it.
How are you doing, Frank?
I'm doing well, thank you very much.
I appreciate this opportunity to be able to share my story.
So tell us about your faith walk and how you got to where you are today.
This has been a, um, a great experience for me, you know, because
I don't usually think amount.
You know, one of the great things that the Israelites forgot, or one of the
great things that the Israelites didn't do that caused them so many problems, and
it was repeated over and over and over again, is they forgot the goodness of God.
You know, you can, you can just go through life, and as the years go on, you can.
Uh, forget about how God has been with you, how God has done things for
you, you know, and then when something happens, you wonder, where's God?
Where's God?
Where's he at?
I don't even know if he was ever with Matt.
How could this happen?
But I think that an opportunity by thinking about this, uh, this, uh,
opportunity to share with other people.
You know, I had to sit down and I had to write, I had to
reflect, I had to pray about this.
And for me, it's been a great a great opportunity.
Because, you know, I was thinking about this, about, it doesn't
matter where you start in life, but where you finish up in life.
You know, because all of us, you know, a lot of us, some of us, just
me maybe, we don't grow up like, where life is really, really good.
Where, you know, I have, I have a family that's so, so Christian oriented,
so You know, whatever, it's just a perfect family, a perfect father,
perfect mother, perfect sibling.
Some of us don't have that, and I'm certainly am one of those people.
I was born in 1950, so I grew up in Jersey City.
A whole different world back in those days.
A whole different world in regards to values, in regards to experiences.
You know, When my mother was kind of old when she had me,
I think she was around 37.
And I will be talking about my, uh, my relationship with God,
my relationship with AA, my relationship with my addiction.
Because that, you know, I've been around the program now for Well, not around
the program, that, that being said, I've just been around, I've been in the
program, I've worked, you know, I've been sober and clean for now 44 years.
So it's more than, well, more than two thirds of my life
that, that really encompasses.
I'm now 73, I've been clean sober for all these years.
But alcoholism has impacted me from the very beginning, and maybe not so
much in regards to me starting out.
And so I was, you know, in my teens, but my father was a violent drunk.
I mean, when I say violent, I mean, where he used to try to kill me and my mother.
I mean, that, I mean, my sister, somehow or another, um, he
liked her, loved her, whatever.
But maybe because I was represented to him, I don't know.
But I remember one time, this is, and I say this because, you know,
I'm trying to encourage people.
If you've come from this type of background.
You need to know that there's a way out.
There is a way out of this if you're willing to take it.
If not, unfortunately, it'll never go away.
It'll never go.
Those things, these things don't go away without, without help of
God, without help of, uh, mentors, without help of spirituality.
So I remember one time specifically, I was, I don't know how old I was, I
was four or five, six, I don't really remember, but I can remember vividly.
I was in Jersey City.
I came to the door of my kitchen.
And we lived in an apartment because we were poor, you know, we grew up poor.
But I remember standing at this doorway, seeing my father choke my mother, you
know, had her by the throat and was, you know, uh, had her over the stove.
And he, and I was so afraid that I couldn't move.
And I was just, I was just petrified.
And so I'm just sharing this with you to know, when I say violence,
I'm not, like, a little violent.
I mean, knock down, let's call the cops, let's have the policemen
come and, you know, do that stuff.
So this is the type of environment that, uh, that I started out in.
You know, maybe some of you can relate to it.
Maybe some of you have had it worse than this.
Macquarie Ten Boom said that there's no pit that's too deep that God isn't deeper.
And I think that that is such a wonderful saying, because no matter where we come
from, you know, that God is there, God can bring us out, God can heal us, God
can give us the best life that we ever had, if we're willing to turn to him.
So like I said, I grew up in Jersey City, and my mother eventually
did divorce my father, thank God.
But it didn't get a whole lot better.
I had started to grow.
I had started, I had to leave my house for a long time, for
I don't know how many years.
And I had, I had, I was brought up by this lady and this man
who were not my relatives.
And, you know, there were good parts to it and there were bad parts.
You know, years later, the better part was that I, I, I found out that I was
sexually abused for a long time, and I didn't really quite get it when I was
young, but there were some good parts to, you know, I, I grew up and even though
I live with this lady and, and she, she, you know, I had some good experiences.
Some of them was that she would be the woman.
That would introduce me to the Cub Scouts.
She would be the woman that would introduce me to the Boy Scouts.
You know, I still can remember, you know, the, the, the Boy Scouts.
Boy Scouts love, uh, I was, love, I can't say now, I think I'm too
nervous, but, about preparation, you know, Boy Scouts loyal, trustworthy.
Kind, obedient stuff like that.
Cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent.
Yeah, that's it!
That's it!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
So you can imagine this has gone back now, 60 years, 60 years ago.
I still, oh You know, I had it ingrained in me that there were some
good, uh, characteristics that those organizations tried to ingrain in me.
And I'm not sure how I got introduced to church.
I don't remember, um, how that went down.
Because like I say, you know, we grew up poor.
I mean, real poor.
We were on welfare.
Back in those days, welfare was something you were embarrassed of.
You never wanted to tell somebody.
That you are a welfare because that was like a stigma back in those days.
And I remember people from the church bringing boxes of food, you know,
like, actually would be probably this time of year, maybe for Thanksgiving,
probably, probably for Christmas.
I remember the pastor of the church coming to our house and bringing,
you know, food so that we'd have something to eat for the holidays.
And, uh, I remember going to camp.
I remember going to Boy Scout camp.
I remember going to, uh, church camp.
You know, and I think of this now, I don't know how many years ago, but, you
know, It's amazing how when you stop and you reflect on your life, you can see
God's hand, you know, you can see it.
If you stop, if you're willing to see with the spiritual eye and not just be
looking at my circumstances right now.
If you can, if you stop and look at your life, you can see God's hand.
So I remember, like I said, I went to.
Uh, Christian camp and I remember the I remember I used to love
it used to be Christian on his way to the celestial city.
And it was on those, those boards we propose, you know, those, what do you
call those boards we put on graph.
Well, yeah.
And I'm not sure that's the name of it, but it's like all velour,
and you put these characters in.
I remember sitting there, I was like, oh, I can't wait until
tomorrow to see, to see his journey on this way to the Celestial City.
And of course, you know, thank God, I guess the last day, the
next to the last day, he reaches the Celestial City, and you know.
But I wish I had You know, I wish I could say that, uh, my life, even
with all some of that background with the Cup Scouts, the Boy Scouts, the
church, that it would have a direct or an immediate impact on my life.
But it didn't.
You know, like I said, I grew up with, I grew up in the inner city.
And, uh, I had grown up with such violence that I didn't know how to deal with life.
You know, violence was always like a But when I used to see
violence, I would freeze up.
I would, you know, I would just like that little boy that stood, um, in that
doorway, I would, I would just freeze up.
I didn't, and I didn't know how, I didn't know anyone to talk to.
How do you explain that to some people, you know, where I grew up.
I really didn't have anyone to share with.
I didn't, I didn't know how to handle life.
I didn't know how to handle those types of fears.
I didn't know how to handle anything.
And yet, you know, I went to church.
It wasn't like I didn't go to church.
It wasn't like I wasn't exposed to Christianity, but somehow
I missed The relationship, you know, I had the information.
I had some of the experience of seeing other people on his way to
the celestial city, but somehow it didn't take root in my life.
So consequently, when I turned about 13, I, you know, again, like I say,
was because of my, my, my insides were like just fears, insecurities,
and abilities to live life.
And so I grew up, you know, my father and all my uncles were, you know,
all the men in my family were drunks.
And, uh, so what else, what, when you see something, somehow or another, you think
maybe that's the answer because, you know, this is, I, I love what someone said.
He said that sin promises to please and serve, but only enslaves and dominates.
And that's what alcoholism does.
Any addiction does.
It's not just I was more, you know, associated with that
experience than with anyone else.
But, you know, it promised, it promised that I would be able
to be able to handle life.
I mean, that's the way I saw it.
And so At the age of 13, I walked away, I closed, I didn't go to Boy Scouts
anymore, I walked away from church, I, you know, walked away from, um, those
things that really do have lasting impact, those things that could change
my life permanently, and they took the thing that would only kind of camouflage.
The pain and the stuff I was going through, because alcohol, you know,
like I say, it promises, it promises a lot and I, and I saw some of them,
what, in the beginning, I saw it as an ally when I was afraid or when
I didn't know how to do something.
I would drink and, and it would help me to be the person I wanted to be.
And then when I act like a jerk because I drank more.
The two, some of the too much, then it was my alibi.
Oh man, you know, I was just talking.
It was my excuse, you know, so it was my ally or my alibi, wherever I was that day.
That was my, that was my goal to, you know, it just, it didn't matter.
And so I would, you know, I would go on this, um, this side, this, this fake
promise, you know, that's the great thing about the difference between
what the world promises, And what God promises, well, you know, and they
are, I mean, the Bible says there's two worlds, it's God's kingdom and the
kingdom of this world, which is of Satan.
And so I went there because that's what I knew.
And so for the next six, next 15 years, that's what I would do.
But, you know, like I say, it dominates and enslaves.
It doesn't, you don't see that in the beginning.
It's, you know, it seems like, oh.
Everybody's doing it, and it is so helpful to me.
I mean, I'm able to, you know, live somewhat not fearful, or put on a facade
of being afraid, not being afraid.
But somewhere down the road, it becomes
a necessity, more than just a luxury, you know what I mean?
And again, you know, some people came into AA, and I listened to them, you know.
It doesn't matter.
It doesn't matter whether you come from Notting Hill, the exclusive
place, or you come from the Bowery.
God is the same for all of us.
He shows no partiality to anyone.
He died for the world.
He didn't die just for the rich.
He didn't die just for the righteous.
He didn't die just for those that had their lives together.
As a matter of fact, he said he came for the sinner more than the righteous.
He would leave the 99 righteous and go and hunt.
for the one that was lost.
And that was me.
I was lost.
I didn't know it.
And as I say, the years had gone on and things had gotten progressively worse.
And I want to share about, you know, Paul wrote, he was the chief of sinners
and God saved him as an example to other people so that no one, no one could come
to Paul and say, Oh, I'm just too bad.
I'm just too bad.
I was a prostitute.
I was, you know, a slave dealer.
I was whatever back in those days and Paul would say, well,
let me tell you about my story.
Let me tell you about how I killed Christians, how I went out of my
way to get the men and the women and haul them off to prison.
I even went to, like, Jerusalem to find these people.
to find these people.
And of course, and then, so I want to bring that to my, to
what I had finally, uh, come to.
I come to a place where, you know, certainly there was no God in my life.
I'd gotten married, uh, had gotten married and, you know, and I need to,
you know, there are certain things that I need to, I, I, I believe, I believe.
Instead, believe that an addict, and I want to say addict, I don't want to
say dishonorable because if you're a drug addict, you're an out, you know,
you're a sex addict, you're, you know, whatever your addict, whatever you're
addicted to, that's mind altering.
That I don't believe you can have an intimate relationship.
I think it's impossible.
And you say, well, I, I don't believe that.
Well, you know, one was, and this is what I would say to
somebody that was an addict.
When was the last time you told somebody how much you really drank?
When your wife, when you come home with your girlfriend and your wife
says to you, How much did you drink?
You say, Oh, I just finished a fifth of scotch.
Or I just finished a fifth of vodka.
And you say, ah, I just stopped with the boys, I had one drink, you
know, maybe I had two or something.
See, there's what I'm saying, there's that war, there's that color, you
can't be intimate with them because there's a part of you that you will
not allow anyone to see just how much of Control this alcohol had over.
And so, like I say, I had gotten married.
I used to work, uh, I used to work on the railroad.
And uh, it had gotten, I had gotten so bad that when we used
to play cards, I used to gamble.
And when I would lose the hand, I would shake just like.
You know, the Tower of Babel, I can't think of, I think it was
them, where he shook his hand at God, and that's what I did.
When I would lose a hand, I would shake my fist at God, and I would swear, I
would say all these things about God.
And the drug addicts and the alcoholics that I was with, they,
they would say to me, Aren't you afraid that God's going to kill you?
And, of course, I guess the answer was no, because I didn't stop.
And another, I want to go back just a little bit because here's another
instance where you would think that there would be an impact on my life.
I was about 25.
I would, I still would be in my addiction.
It would be a couple more years before I finally would, uh, would
finally do something about it.
But.
My father finally died.
He became literally a bum in the street.
He was the type of bum that you see would be begging money.
He would be out there, you know, dirty, scruffy, a bum.
And, uh, I remember one day I was walking down the street and this bum called
me over and asked me for some money.
And so I gave him some money.
And so my friend said to me, who's that bum?
And I had to say to him, that was my father.
That was my father.
And then, like when I say, when I was 25, he finally died.
He was in the mor, he was in the morgue for 30 days for a month before anyone
would come down and verify his body suit.
Somehow or another.
I don't know who gave him my telephone number.
I don't know how they got in touch with me, but they did.
And so I had to go down and here's this guy.
I mean, if you ever walked into a morgue where they pull him out and he's, he's
been, you know, there for multi stinks.
His face has been caved in because I guess the blood leaves, I don't really know, but
oh my gosh, it's just not a good, uh, it's just not good to see something like that.
And yet that didn't have any impact on me.
That would not even have the slightest impact about me stopping to drink
or, or drug and stuff like that.
So, so finally, in 1979, my life had really gone down the drawer.
My wife was suing me for divorce.
And, uh, she said something like this to me, because, you know,
I still was not going to do it.
The drinking, my thought was, let's eat, drink, like they say, let's eat,
like the Bible says, let's eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die.
Except, you know, and that's what I had, let's eat, drink, and go for it, and
then tomorrow, you know, forget about tomorrow, we'll just live for today.
And, uh.
But my wife assumed me for divorce and she, she made a mention, she
made it said, if you go to rehab, we'll work out the visitation to work
out the things with the children.
And so I, I went to the rehab only because everything was for the part of them.
Just things were just not out with me.
See, I was a workaholic.
I had money.
I had lots of stuff.
I used to loan people money on my job so they could drink with me on payday.
So I didn't have any problem with money or things like that.
That was not my problem.
Inwardly, and maybe some of your listeners can identify about what it's like to be
spiritually and emotionally destitute.
I mean, when you come, you can, I came to realize That although I had a lot of
women in my life, I wasn't a man to have a long lasting relationship with her.
If you wanted to have fun and you wanted to, you know, enjoy life.
And what I want to say, enjoy life in my life, which means drinking
and sex and all that stuff.
I was your man.
But if you wanted an intimate relationship, I said to
you, it was impossible.
It was impossible for me to enter into a relationship, an intimate relationship.
I could make you laugh and joke and all this other stuff, but
that other stuff was impossible.
So I finally went to rehab in 79 only because my life was falling apart,
never wanted to stay sober, never thought about staying sober, never
even believed I would stay sober.
Now it's 44 years later.
And, uh, so I went in there and, and something, and somebody said something
there that would at least keep me sober for a while until I eventually.
Um, we start to turn back to Christ.
He said to me, only babies return to their fathers.
And I took that like as the challenge, because you know, we're, I'm, the AAB
book says that we're, what's the word?
I can't think of it now.
We're, we're something but with an inferiority complex.
You know what I'm saying?
I can't think.
Egomaniacs with an inferiority complex.
That was me.
I was an egotistical maniac.
Yeah.
But I had the inferiority complex.
And so I went into rehab and I was going to prove him wrong.
But you, I don't know if people that listens to this program
have ever experienced what it's like to be in the dry drunk.
And I'm not sure which is worse, being a dry drunk or a regular drunk.
Because the dry drunk, you always have the pain, always
like right here in front of you.
It's always, as long as you're awake, that pain is always there.
And if you're a dry drunk, like I was, you can't get rid of it.
You can't get rid of it.
And of course, you know, my wife, eventually, if I was sober for four
years, divorce me, she, she had had enough drunk or sober, she had had enough of it.
Let me ask you a question.
You went to treatment in 79, but when you got out, you, you just became a dry drunk?
In the next four years, I would become a dry drunk.
I would, I would go to the, I would go to the meetings and
stuff and, um, egotistical maniac, and that would describe me.
Because I would go to meetings and I'd see somebody like you, Jesse, calm, cool,
collected, had wisdom to say things.
And I'd listen because I wanted to hear what you had to say.
I didn't have a program.
I didn't have anything.
And so I go to my next meet, and I quote you, but I didn't give you the credit.
I want people to think that I was changing, but I wanted all the credit.
And of course, when you don't change inwardly, it's hard to change outwardly.
Actually, it's impossible to change outwardly because it says out of the
abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
So I hadn't changed on the inside.
So therefore I was a dry job.
And like I say, you know, my life has fallen apart, you know,
even now, this is so important.
This is like, this is so important.
I wanted to share this with people that are listening, if you can relate to this.
I had become a Christian in 1980.
I had become a Christian.
I mean, I committed my life to Christ and, you know, got baptized in the Holy Spirit,
you know, but yet I wasn't discipled.
You know, there's a difference.
between being a follower of Jesus and being a disciple of Jesus.
Because even though I went to church, I mean, I went to church.
Lots of time.
I mean, sometimes we'd be there all night in these, uh, uh, in these, uh,
midday service, I guess it was a Friday service, then Sunday and, you know, all
of a sudden, and I, I read my Bible, you know, I wore my Bibles out, I
wore my Bibles out, you know, but for me, it's like people in the program,
they say, Oh, I read the big books.
Oh, I read the big book.
Right.
But how has it changed you?
How have you assimilated?
How has it changed your life?
Where do you see the change of your life?
And of course, there wasn't.
And I, I like I wrote, I mean, when I thought about this, that
there's a, I had be, I had become a Pharisee, a modern day Pharisee,
which was like the Pharisees of Jesus.
They, you know, they, they cared more about the law than
they cared about relationship.
Actually, they couldn't even see Jesus people 'cause they were so blind.
I was like that, you know, I, I felt like if, if I just read the word,
if I just went to church, if I just prayed whatever, that I would change.
Mm-Hmm,
But that's not true.
Not for me, it wasn't.
I didn't change, you know.
I was still, you know, like I said, my wife divorced me two years
after I got saved in the Navy.
So three years after I'd become a Christian.
So just reading, I mean, I mean, let me just clarify this.
Not drinking is better than drinking.
You know what I mean?
And being a dry drunk is better than being a wet drunk.
And reading the Bible and going to church and all this stuff is better.
They're not doing, you know what I mean?
So I'm not saying that's all, well, I'm not changing.
So forget about the Bible, forget about this, forget about it, because
in those atmospheres, in those environments, in those meetings, God
has an opportunity to speak to you.
I mean, so we're setting ourselves up, we're putting ourselves in a
position that we can hear from God, if we're willing to hear from God.
So, fast forward, my wife eventually divorced me and, um, I would stay sober.
But this, this pharisaical mentality would last for 20 years.
This isn't like something, and it got worse.
I became a legalist, I became a perfectionist.
Because it was all based on performance.
Like the Pharisees.
It was based on performance, about God will love me if I do this.
God loves me because I pray.
God loves me because I read my Bible.
God loves me because I'm doing this.
But the truth of the matter is that God loves me, and I don't know, I'm
sure I heard it over and over again, that God loves me no matter what.
You know, it said that God so loved the world, but I didn't get that.
I thought God so loved Frank, as long as he performed well.
Maybe it was good for you because, you know, you're not
as bad as I was, or whatever.
But I had to earn God's love, because again, I never had peace.
I didn't have, remember, I couldn't have an intimate relationship, now
it became a pharisee and a legalist, and I still couldn't have an intimate
relationship because my relationship with God was performance oriented.
My relationship with people would be performance oriented if you
lived up to my standards and stuff.
And of course, no one, no one other than Jesus was perfect.
And so when you have, when I had a performance mentality, I was
constantly, condemning myself.
I wasn't, and I would just beat myself up so bad because I wasn't
living up to what I thought the Christian was supposed to be.
And I take the bat out of the closet, just constantly beat me up.
So I had no peace.
I had no joy.
I had, I don't know what I had.
I stayed sober.
So you can stay sober, you know what I mean?
But there's more, there's like more, I mean, like, you know, it's kind of
like, this is how I can describe it.
It's kind of going to the ocean.
You know, I had God, my, I had, you know, I had the Holy Ghost and had
Jesus of course, but it's kind of like going to the ocean and taking a spoon
of water and saying, this is the ocean.
When all that was the ocean.
All the thousands and millions of God, oh no, this is what God, this
is, that's what I thought God was.
God was this spoon.
And that's all that God was, this spoon, this little amount
of him, and yet he was and is and will be, you know, this vastness.
Like I said, I moved to Maui in 2000.
I was already sober at this point for almost 21 years, I
guess it was at this point.
And, you know, I still didn't have that relationship with Christ.
I still didn't get it.
No matter how much I heard, no matter how much, no matter how much of anything.
Finally, I got, you know, a sponsor in Maui who would start to change
my life, would change my life in regards to not being sober.
But in regards to the way I view God, and this, this would
be the, this would be crucial.
This is, would be the turning point.
So, you know, it's kind of like the guy, you know, says in the big book, like your
tornado, you know, they come up out of the cell and you say, Oh, you know, things
are like, you know, life is in chaos.
Everything is falling apart.
Everybody, hey, no, there's no wind here now, ma.
You don't see that while this is, while you're in the middle of it.
And so I would get, I would get a sponsor in Maui.
And I mean, I still keep in contact with him now.
It's more than 20 some years.
And, uh, he would say things like this to me.
He had a spirituality that I didn't have.
I had religion.
That's what I, I had religion.
And religion is what man can do for God.
But spirituality and grace is what God did for man.
And I need to accept what he did here regardless.
Of what I did.
And so he would say things like this to me.
You have a punishing God.
You need to get a God, a loving God.
And if you can't find one, you can take mine.
Until you find one like that.
Now, I, I knew the Bible.
I mean, I read the Bible.
I could quote sections of the Bible.
I could do all this stuff.
But I had religion.
I didn't have a relationship.
And he would say things like We argued about this one point for a year.
Because remember, I was Pharisee.
So he said, Frank Do you want to be happy or do you want to be right?
And of course, my response was, I don't care about being happy.
I just need to be right.
How bad is that?
How could you be around so much and not hear and not hear and not hear?
God says what people say.
So I lived in Maui for a number of years.
I lived there for about six and six and a half years.
And, uh, during that time I would, would work with him and he would
even, he would say to me, Frank, you need to let the screw up.
Let the what?
Screw.
You know how you tighten down the screw and it gets tighter?
Oh, yeah.
Well, that's what he was talking about my wife.
You need to let up on that screw, man.
I mean, like, start to loosen up a little bit there.
You know, you don't change overnight and I, he knew my perfectionism knew
what I was dealing with and words don't have a lot of impact on me, but your
life does your life has a lot of impact.
And I would see this guy walk through stuff.
I mean, I was walking through financial situations there too.
I took 11 an hour pay cut to move there, and I would be
working at a 500 a month deficit.
And I'd call him up and I'd say, you know, I'm moaning, groaning, whatever.
And then, you know, we'd talk about it.
And then I'd say, how are you doing?
He says, oh, well, he says, well, does that mean 4, 000 by the end
of the month to pay my, my mortgage worth on my, um, on my condo?
But I said, what are you doing?
He says, I'm doing exactly what I tell you to do.
I'm trusting God.
I used to wait on, I used to sit at home and wait for the phone to ring.
He said, but what I'm telling you to do, that's how I'm looking at it.
You see, I, I never forgot those examples.
I saw.
I saw someone living this stuff, not just talking about it, and I wanted it.
I really wanted what he had, you know, so let me see.
So that was so I lived there six years on the night in 2000 when the 2005,
I guess, I would meet my second wife.
And I actually met her late husband, who eventually died of cancer, but
I did actually shortly after that.
And, um, so he and I became friends and, you know, I didn't know that they
were there to celebrate his death or his life, whatever you want to say,
because eventually he would, not shortly afterwards, he would pass away, you
know, and they were, she was, they were battling cancer for eight years.
And so, um, then she would pass away and two circumstances as the
months went on, you know, because of their friend, her friends.
and her sister.
We would just, you know, talk, and eventually one time she would come
to Maui for six weeks, and his sister had some property over there.
And I wasn't, forget about that, my goal was never to leave Maui.
I mean, that was the biggest dream I had.
I used to tell people there's Maui, if you close your hand and you
had knuckles, there's Maui, and then you put the other hand flat
on top of it, and there's heaven.
So there was nothing in between, there was nothing to see.
You know, uh, me ever leaving now because that was my ultimate
dream, was to live there.
You know, but you know, it's, it's, it's God.
I don't know how else to say that.
We have these desires, and I think they're for one reason.
I'm going to go to Maui because I love the place, I love the
beach, I love everything about it.
But God has another reason for you to go.
God has other reasons, not as natural as mine was.
My other reasons was to find spiritual advisors that I didn't
have when I was in Jersey.
And these people would work with me for like five and six years on it to
eventually Eventually I would stop and start to say, you know what?
I don't, there's stuff I don't need in my life anymore.
I'm done.
I don't care if I never date.
I don't care about any of that.
I enough this, and it's funny, , it's funny, God, not funny, you know, I say
it's funny, but I don't know how else.
That's just a human terminology.
I can't think of how better to describe it.
Then God brings this woman to my life.
I mean, I never in my whole life, drunk or sober.
I never had a, uh, a healthy relationship.
I didn't even know what healthy relationship came from.
I remember when I started out in life, young, violence,
drinking, drugging, facade.
And then I just continued with it.
So I wanted to share with you, I wanted to share with people, that God never
promises that we'll walk in roses.
He promises that we'll have tribulation in this world.
Bye.
Be of good cheer.
I have overcome the world.
And that's the thing I couldn't grasp.
When all these, you know, when I was drinking, even when I became a Pharisee,
it was still based upon me and how I, how I could figure out how to handle life.
Plus one was better than the other.
But when I got married, since, and I was, I was single for many years,
like 23 years or something like that.
And when you're single, you look great.
I mean, you don't have anybody to, you don't have anybody to argue
with, you could be, you could be like the most spiritual, you look like
you could walk on water with Peter.
I mean, you know, you espouse the big book, you espouse the, you know,
the scriptures, you know, and you look great, but when I got married.
Oh my gosh, we're a whole different, you know, a whole,
a whole different world again.
I'm going to shut the door for a moment, hold on a second.
Okay.
So like I was saying, I never had a healthy relationship.
So I came into this relationship with the same experiences, right?
I don't know what this stuff looks like.
Now, my wife, on the other hand, she had what I call a marriage made in heaven
with her late husband who passed away.
I mean, it was like, wow, way beyond my imagination.
And so, I remember saying to my sponsor, this lady's out of my league.
This lady's too far out of my league.
And he said, that's why discipleship, sponsorship, It's so crucial because
I only know what I know, and now I only can think of the way I normally
think he would say something like this.
Well, that may be true, but she must see something.
She must see something in you that you don't see.
And I said, all right, I like to think of it the way you think of it.
And so we would get married and we're married now 16 years.
We got married in 2007.
And don't you love love stories?
Like it's like a hallmark where they fall in love, they kiss.
And then you think it's a happy ending or it's a happy road to destiny or whatever.
Well, the first five years of our marriage, it was, I mean, for, for
her, it must have, it was terrible.
Cause I had these inabilities still.
I know, you know, she wanted an intimate relationship and I, I
still, it still was hard for me.
It was still, it seemed like impossible.
But the thing that kept us together, and oh, this is what I want to
say to people, it's so important.
I feel, because I've seen God do it in my life, I've seen God do
it in at least two other couples.
Don't give up.
If you're a Christian, you have something going for you that the world doesn't have.
You have the Holy Ghost on the inside of you.
You have a Savior that will, that did everything for us.
You have the Word of God that will, that is able to transform us.
You know what I mean?
So don't give up.
Prayer is so crucial, so crucial.
And I remember one time, and I share this because I don't want
you to think that it runs easy.
It didn't run easy for me, but it can and it will if you hang in there.
I remember one time my wife and I, we laugh about it now, but we
were almost going to have a divorce because she left up the army for us.
You know, he left up an ironing board in the condo and that went crazy.
It was like, I'm like, ah.
And so I called my sponsor up.
And I said, this guy was, you know, what is he?
So he said something.
See, I can't think of things like this.
I never think of that.
He says to me, Why didn't you take the ironing board down?
It never occurred to me that I could take the ironing board down.
It never occurred to me.
And then I remember we sat on the couch and, uh, she wanted
to pray about something.
Maybe it's the ironing board, I'm not sure.
And she said, she would say to me, Let's pray about it.
And see, I know, I knew enough that if I prayed, God would change my heart.
But, I'd rather be happy, rather be right than to be happy.
Some of that was still residual.
So I said, no, I don't want to pray.
So, I don't have the Lord.
Then eventually she said, let's pray again.
So, like a little boy.
I would turn my head to the left that stick my hand out to the right.
And I grabbed her hand.
I said, okay, you pray.
Once we prayed and I invited God into Holy Spirit, it would change.
I knew that.
I mean, I knew that, but I wasn't, you know, didn't want to change.
And sure enough, she prayed.
I changed.
You know, and as time went on, that philosophy about why didn't
you do it altered my life forever.
My wife still had a tendency of when we would come in the house she would
put her pocketbook and her shoes right in the middle of the floor.
She would just drop the beer, you know, just drop it, and I would be so upset.
And then I would think about, and then, uh, first I would argue
with her, why don't you do more?
And I said, you know what?
She's never going to change.
Forget about it.
I just kick them on the side, laugh, and go on with life.
But it was because I had gotten discipled in one small area of my life.
Frank, why don't you do it?
See, I couldn't, I don't know if I couldn't, I didn't see it.
And so, It has gotten, you know, Bill Wilton said, I think, at the end of his.
At the end of this, uh, story, he said something like, I never saw,
I never knew life could be so good.
And that's, you know, that's where we are now.
You know, our life is so much better.
Is it perfect?
No way.
I still, we still argue over it and we laugh about it.
We, we argue over dopey.
I mean, we even call them dopey things.
They're so dopey.
And we laugh.
Our, whatever, when they ask sometimes, like we, I stayed there with my wife
for a day and a half because she sighed at the, she went, ah, out of sync,
you know, and it's funny now because when you look back and you say, that's
the dopest thing I've ever seen.
But here now, you know, we've just, we've just finished Bible college.
We've gone to Karis Bible college for the last few years.
And we've, you know, we have spent a huge amount of hours studying because you
have all these courses you have to do.
You have to take a test and each course is like eight hours each.
And last year we did 50 courses.
So 400 hours.
I did some I didn't have to do.
She did some she didn't have to because it was like two different curricula somehow.
But I wanted, I wanted to, I wanted to be transformed.
And that was the reason why I went to CARES.
No, I, I knew how to stay sober.
I knew how to stay away from the addictions, but I didn't know is how
do I bear the fruits of the spirit or how I, how I have the fruits of the
spirit on the inside of me, but chose not to let them out, you know, how I,
because when the Holy Spirit comes, he's not like this little baby Holy Spirit.
And then he grows up, he, you got the same Holy Spirit, full blown, full
power, full knowledge, full, full everything that, that, that Jesus had.
I have the same spirit, the same exact Holy Spirit.
The only problem is that Jesus Didn't have my mind.
That's where the dilemma comes in, is that.
Let me ask you a question.
Uh, so you were a Pharisee.
And you were all into performance.
And now.
You're in, you're living by grace and you're, you have the Holy Spirit.
Can you think of a, what was, what made the difference?
What turned the switch for you to, to, to grab grace and let go of religion?
You know, I can't think, you know, a lot of people can come and say, well,
that was the day that was the thing.
I don't know when it happened.
It's kind of like, it's kind of like the parable.
of the seed, you know, it's planted, and then comes the sprout, and then
comes the ear, and then comes the full blown ear, you know, and the farmer
goes out every day, and he doesn't know what happens, but one day he
goes out there, and it's changed.
And I think what happens is that as I continue, as we've continued, as I, as I
spend, you know, lots of amount of time with the Lord, you know, Wednesdays,
usually my day of fasting and prayer.
So most of the Wednesdays, I'll spend just reading the word, praying, you
know, I'll just shut the door and she, she'll do whatever she wants.
She, she does a Bible studies and all that too.
But I think what happens.
I don't believe, well, in Paul's situation it was, but in most situations, I
don't think it's such a dramatic, Oh, I changed, but it's more of a gradual thing.
This is what I've seen in my own life.
There would be situations that I would react a certain way.
And then, you know, somewhere down the road, whatever, God would
allow the same situation to happen, and I would respond differently.
And that's saying, I did change.
I didn't even know I changed.
It, it, it, it changed.
You know, I have this, I say this in the AEA a lot, that my mind is my problem.
And that's true.
My mind is my problem.
That's why I've got to be renewed in my mind, in the spirit of my mind.
If my mind is my problem, and it is.
When I say to myself, I'm going to change, I'm using a sick mind to fix
a sick mind and that's impossible.
I mean, when a person say, Oh, I'm selfish, I'm going to use my, I'm
going to use me to fix my selfishness.
Well, how does a selfish person fix a selfish person?
It's just this.
Ridiculous.
But, you know, these are the things that I know.
I don't know how much I know.
I'm learning over time, but I want to share this because I think it's
so important that at the end, if I have suggestions, it would be
to the people that are listening, that maybe could relate to a modern
day pharisee like me, and whose performance or a pharisee like me.
Oriented.
Don't become a Pharisee, but think that God love or and think that
God loves you whenever you perform.
Whenever you do this, whenever you do, it's a lie.
It's a lie from the pit of hell.
You know?
But it sounds religious though, right?
Because that's what they say in religion.
You gotta perform, you have to do this, you have to, you know, whatever.
That's not even, that's not a relationship.
He didn't come because I was good, or I'm going to be good.
He came because he's good.
Because he's great because he is love has nothing to do with me.
You talked about God's grace.
That is God's grace.
It has to do all about him.
It has nothing to do with me.
The other one I would say is, Oh, this is so, see, this is where I fell so short.
I would say become a disciple, not just the follower of Jesus.
There's a huge difference.
I was a follower.
I read the Word.
I did all this stuff.
But only when I became, because that's what Jesus said, make disciples.
He didn't say make converts, make followers.
But be a disciple.
What does that mean?
Get to know Jesus on an intimate relationship, and the way I did it, the
way, through the Word of God, Jesus said, If you've seen me, you've seen the Father.
How do I know who the Father is?
Because I look at the compassion of Jesus.
I look at the love of Jesus.
I look what he did for people.
That changed me.
So be a disciple, not just church on Sundays and all that stuff.
Oh, and I have this one here that says, Believe that when the Bible says that
God so loved the world, he gave Jesus, replace the word world with your name.
God so loved Frank, God so loved Grace, God so loved Nancy, God so
loved Jesse, God so loved whoever, that he gave his only begotten son.
That's what it's all about.
It's on an individual basis, on a personal level.
It says, uh, and there's nothing I ever did.
And I hit this with Apostle Paul in my own life.
There's nothing I ever did, can do, or will do, can ever separate me.
Because God is love.
He's not loving because if he's loving, he can stop being loving,
but if he is love, he can't change.
That is his nature.
He has no choice.
Trying to explain in actual terms, it doesn't make sense.
But because he, because he is like this, he can't change because it
would be against his character.
So God is love.
So don't ever think there's anything.
That can separate you from the love of God.
Hey, while you're on that, let me ask a question.
So you, your early experiences in life were not so loving, you
know, your experience with your father and growing up and then,
uh, you know, it was a tough life.
So how do you get that understanding that God is love when you don't even
really have an experience of human.
Of, of love on this plane, you know, do you understand what I'm saying?
I do.
And for me, you know, it's like I, I had to see this, these
characteristics in people.
And then I could emulate them.
Like, I had a friend of mine who was.
The grapevine editor of the grapevine, and he like knew the books in and out.
And I remember one day he called me up and he said something to me.
He was so humble in what he said that I started crying.
And see, that was humility.
And that I can, I can see humility in other people.
And I could say, I want to start to allow the Holy Spirit to bring that humility.
What does it look like?
Well, right now, it looks like this.
Right now, I've seen these other people like this.
I can start to say, that's what I want in my life.
And of course, of course, everything is based upon the
intimate relationship with God.
You can't do this by your own, you can forget about it.
Because if you're going to try to produce the fruits of the Spirit
by yourself, that's the Pharisee.
That's what the Pharisee did.
It's, you can't do it.
because it's impossible.
If I could do it, we wouldn't need Jesus.
If I could do it, we wouldn't need the Holy Spirit, because it's the fruits of
the Holy Spirit, not the fruits of Frank.
You know what I mean?
So I can't produce it.
So if I was to say, so important is to have an intimate time, set
aside time, every day, because if you want to, just like my wife,
just like, You know, whatever.
If you want an intimate relationship, you have to spend time.
You have to spend time.
You can't say, Oh, God, I love you and go run out and do this.
Oh, God, you love me.
Oh, I'm going to go do this.
You know, it's like having an intimate relationship is just, um,
maybe that maybe some people won't understand this, but those that know
the Bible about Mary and Martha.
Martha was so busy.
About the things of this world and Mary was sitting at Jesus feet and
Martha said, Jesus, don't you care?
I'm doing all this and Jesus reply is you're so busy about everything.
But Mary has chosen the one thing that won't be taken from her.
I want to be a Mary.
That's, that's my goal.
And is it easy?
No, because it goes against everything that this world teaches us.
You know, the world teaches you gotta do it yourself, be a man
and pull up your bootstraps.
God says you can't do it, but I can do it in you.
You know what I mean?
When I said before there's two different worlds, there's this world philosophy,
and then there's Jesus philosophy, and they're diabolically opposed.
They can't operate together.
God says, whoever loves this world is an is an entity with me.
Because you can't have a relationship.
It's like when I was had my relationship, my drinking and drugging, I couldn't
have a relationship with God.
It's impossible.
It was impossible.
So the same thing here, if I would say, spend that time, whatever
that means to you, however you need, however you need to start.
You need, I would suggest that you start soon and no matter how far you
go because we all fall short of the glory of God, that's the way it goes.
But God is there because he wants, like in AA, we want everyone to succeed.
Jesus wants everyone to succeed.
Jesus wants everyone to know the love of God, which was displayed
in Jesus and is given to us.
by the Holy Spirit.
So, I can't give you a good time.
It just happens.
You, you just effortless, I think that's the word that Woody Paul writes, uh, one
of the books I read was effortless change.
You stay there and you will change.
And again, we don't walk on water here, so I just encourage it.
Well, I wanted to just say that I loved your answer, you know, when I
asked about the, how'd you become, uh, get from being a Pharisee to,
to live in this life of grace.
And you immediately responded with Jesus's parable about the The farmer
sowing the seeds and the seeds, they're under the ground and they, they take
root and they sprout and they grow and we don't know how, you know, I love that.
And then, and then I relate that to what you were just saying about the,
uh, the revelation of God's love and, and the seed that we plant is.
That time with him, you know, that intimate time with him is a seed that,
that takes root and grows without us being in charge, which is so strange.
So it's supernatural.
I love your answer.
I think it's going to be really helpful to a lot of people.
Well, again, you know, my, uh, I had.
My wife prayed for me, you know, I wrote all this stuff down, meditated
on this morning, and had my wife pray for me, had you pray for me.
Of course, you know, I said to God, even if I just reach one person, one person,
that's all that matters, because, you know, Billy Graham, who, you know, became
one of the greatest evangelists ever, he was, he was at a, when he was 17 years
old, he went to a, uh, some type of revival meeting, and the guy gave a call.
He was the only person that came down.
And yet, that one person would change the world, literally,
for like the next 70, 80 years.
So my prayer was to God, God, if I could just reach even just one
person, just one person, then I've done what you've told me to do.
And be a disciple, not of, that's the crucial, be a disciple.
Not a follower and to be like, to be like his mentor.
That's what a disciple is, you know, like back I'm watching Chosen and
you know, that's what it's like.
They, they want to be the rabbi.
I guess it was the disciple of the rabbi learned so he
would be like the rabbi, right?
Well, if you learn about Jesus, your goal, my goal is and will be to be like Jesus.
And that's God's goal, too, to make us like him.
We're on the same page.
Thank God.
Well, but anything else you want to add?
Again, come out of religion and come into relationship.
They are not synonymous.
The world may save you, but they're not synonymous.
One is based upon man's performance and what you will do for God.
That's religion.
But grace.
Is what God did for us and faith is how we appropriate it.
And it's based upon not performance, but on an intimate relationship with him.
And there's no other way it can come.
As far as I know, actually, that's the way the Bible says it too.
So it's not like I'm giving you my opinion.
So if there's one thing I, my prayer, and I'm going to pray
that you would start this journey of intimacy with Jesus.
Even, I don't know where you are, maybe, but like with me, I used to describe
Bibles because I read them so much.
Trust me, I used to throw Bibles away because I destroyed them
because I read them so much.
Maybe you see yourself there.
But you need to build that intimate relationship.
So I want to pray with those that would hear this, whenever they hear this.
God, we just come to you in the name of Jesus.
Well, we are just such blessed people.
We're blessed because you are so good.
There's nothing to do without goodness, without performance,
that there's nothing we can do.
Well, other than accepting Jesus, of course, that's the most important thing.
But besides that, there's nothing that we can do to stop your love.
Your love.
It just constantly follows us everywhere we go, and Father I pray,
I pray Father for the people that hear this podcast and the other ones
that are, that they will start, they will take time out in their lives.
And allow you to show them, like as the footprints in the sand, that
those times when there was only one footprint, it wasn't the person,
but it was you carrying them.
Father, I pray.
I pray for their spiritual eyes to be open, Lord.
And as they walk back through their lives, they can see how many times
there was only one pair of footprints in the sand, and it was you.
It was you because of your great goodness, because of your great love.
That you've carried us, that you protected us, even when we didn't know
you, want you, desire you, anything good, because that doesn't stop your love.
Your love is never ending and always flowing.
So that's what I pray, Lord, that these people would have a revelation
of your great goodness in their lives.
In Jesus name, Amen.
Amen.
CAILIN: We hope you've been blessed by today's story.
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Most Christians don't share their faith because they mistakenly think
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Or that it's self centered to talk about themselves.
Or that they are not competent to explain the gospel correctly.
But none of that is relevant.
If Jesus has changed your life, you have a story to tell.
All of our stories are completely unique.
No one has a story like yours, and you may be the only one who can reach someone
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All of our stories are completely unique.
No one has a story like yours, and you may be the only one who can reach someone
else through telling your experience.
So don't be intimidated.
A story is just that, a true account of your own experience.
And no one can disagree with your experience.
When we tell what Jesus has done in our lives, we are being obedient to his
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It's not about theology, and it's not about how interesting or special you are.
It's all about Jesus.
So when you're ready to tell how Jesus has impacted your life, you can let Jesse
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net.
There you can download guidelines that will make it easy to
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Thank you for listening today and Shalom.