Matt Abrahams: When it comes to our careers, we need to be very strategic and thoughtful.
And it starts with our presence, through the job interview, well beyond.
My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
I am super excited today to be joined by Andrew Seaman.
Andrew is the Senior Managing Editor for Jobs and Career Development at LinkedIn.
Andrew oversees a team of journalists and editors at LinkedIn who are focused on helping people navigate work and life.
Through his Get Hired podcast and newsletter, Andrew has helped thousands of people get jobs and advance in their careers.
Andrew and I first met when he kindly hosted me on his podcast.
Since then, we've found lots of areas in common and we've found ways to collaborate.
Welcome, Andrew.
It's great to be with you in person once again.
Andrew Seaman: Yeah, thank you for hosting me.
It's great to be here.
Matt Abrahams: Unlike our typical Think Fast, Talk Smart podcast episodes where I get to ask the questions, Andrew and I are going to share both asking and answering duties today.
We hope to share some immediately useful practical and tactical advice to help our combined listeners in their careers.
We've identified a number of topics and we'll be discussing them with each other and with you.
So let's get started, Andrew.
I'd like to talk a bit about online presence.
How important is our online presence and how can we maximize our LinkedIn profile and presence through posting on LinkedIn?
Andrew Seaman: Online presence is your first interview.
So what I always tell people is post what you're reading about your profession, post what you're passionate about, and add to that conversation because it's a way for people to get to know you before they actually meet you.
And it's a way for them to keep up with you too.
So I think it's hugely important and I encourage it.
Matt Abrahams: I think that's really important to think about curating your profile and social presence based on the fact that people might be looking at that way before they meet you.
And beyond LinkedIn, I'm sure different industries and different organizations have groups that they can be posting to.
Do you have a recommendation for how frequently one should post?
The types of things?
Do we reveal information about our hobbies and interests beyond work?
What do you think in that regard?
Andrew Seaman: There are a lot of people who I think share too much.
One thing that I always tell people, and they're surprised when I tell them this, is that I like to quilt and sew.
And I know that sounds really strange, but it's very meditative for me.
But I don't want to be known as a quilter.
I don't want to make it a hobby where I'm posting on Instagram or things like that.
So I don't really talk about it.
I don't post about it that much, you know, it's just because that's for me.
So I recommend people posting regularly, but almost as a challenge to yourself.
So think about it like at least three times a week.
And look at what other people in your industry are talking about or maybe areas that you're passionate about.
So, you know, we're here at Stanford.
And everyone's on a bicycle.
So if you care about sort of creating bikeable cities or something like that, that might not be your profession, but if you're passionate about it, you could post about that too.
And that way when people see you and see your profile, they know, okay, this person is a rounded individual.
That they have their instructional knowledge where they're a professor or, you know, maybe they're an engineer or something, but then they also have this other thing that they're passionate about and they get to see you for who you are completely.
So you know, a few times a week, make it a mix of what you care about, whether it's profession or not.
And then also, you know, a lot of times now when I look at someone's profile, I skip their experience section and I just look at their activity.
Because it tells me more what's on their mind now than what they did five years ago at a different company.
Matt Abrahams: The listeners know I'm a big martial artist and I kept that quiet for a long time.
And when I started sharing it more frequently on social media, it actually helped me connect with a whole bunch of people in a very different way.
And it started a lot of interesting conversations.
So I think you have to make a decision about how much you want to reveal about yourself.
One last question on this online presence, what's your take on commenting on other people's posts versus just posting yourself?
Is there a difference when you as a hiring manager, from your position, make recommendations around that?
Andrew Seaman: What I tell people is, are you adding value to the conversation?
I think it was my math teacher, and I don't know why he had this sign in his room, like, seventh grade, like, algebra teacher, and he had a sign that had Charlie Brown on it, and it said, are you listening or are you waiting to talk?
I was usually always waiting to talk, but one thing that I just always thought is like, am I actually moving this conversation forward?
So when I read comments and it's like, yes, plus one, that doesn't really do anything for me, but if someone says, you know what, I agree with this but, and they can add something really substantial or a good caveat, I think that's really where the value comes in.
So when you're going to comment something, just think, is this actually adding to the conversation?
I do recommend commenting because some people, they find it scary to post and usually it's almost like putting a comment is a little bit of a lighter lift and a little bit less scary.
So if you don't want to post right now, try commenting, but make sure you're actually moving the conversation forward.
Matt Abrahams: I think that's great advice in all communication, is to just move things forward, which I think we should do now.
Andrew Seaman: So, I wanted to ask you about interview presence because I know a lot of people, they go into an interview and they show up and they're the deer in headlights.
What do you think is important and best practice for interview presence, whether it be in person or virtual?
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so presence in terms of how you show up for an interview matters a lot.
People are forming opinions of you even before you log into the Zoom or walk into the room.
And so you really have to think about what is it I want to display.
So what's the timeliness of my responses?
What information am I sharing?
Am I doing it properly?
I once as a hiring manager, I shared this story with you.
Somebody sent me their cover letter and they said they were detail oriented and they spelled detail wrong, right?
I'm forming impressions about them before they ever walk in the door.
So your presence matters and it's everything that happens from the moment you connect and contact the company all the way through the whole interaction.
I'll give you another example.
When I was a hiring manager.
I sat in a place where I actually could look out a window and there was somebody who was coming to interview with me, and he was clearly running late.
He came into the parking lot, cut somebody off to get a space, runs in, was very rude to the receptionist, and then comes and does an amazing interview with me.
Well, who was that person?
Was it the person who interviewed with me perfectly, or was it the person who treated people rudely?
The person did not end up getting the job.
But his presence was known way before he walked into the room.
So we have to think about who we want to project ourselves as and we have to be consistent throughout all of our interactions with the company.
Now I'm certainly not saying be disingenuous and not be who you truly are.
But we have to think about it.
Most of us just think that I'm being interviewed when I'm in the moment of being interviewed and it happens way before that.
Andrew Seaman: And something that I'm curious about too is, I think if you have a bad interview answer, you can sometimes recover, but I'm not sure you can recover from a bad impression.
And do you think there's a way to salvage that?
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I think it's challenging, but I think it's possible and appropriate at times to say in a follow up, interaction that, you know, I wasn't at my best last time.
Here's what I would've liked to think about or have said.
I also think it's important after you have an interview, 'cause not every question do you hit and nail the answer the way you want.
I think in a, in a follow-up, thank you email, you can do some damage control or correcting, as needed.
But we need to be thinking about our presence.
I mean, the question you asked is predicated on being aware enough to know that things didn't hit.
And a lot of people are just so glad that the interview's over that they don't really think about what they might want to correct, and then think about the best way to do it.
I'd love to ask you, Andrew, about interviewing from the interviewer's perspective.
Many of our listeners are in a position of hiring people.
What kind of insight and advice do you have for those who are doing the interviewing?
Because interviewing is actually a skill.
You do it very well on your podcast.
What are some advice you give to those who are the interviewer?
Andrew Seaman: Hiring managers are rarely taught how to interview people.
So it's one of those things where I don't give them a pass, because if you are a hiring manager, I think you need to have some skill in talking to people to vet them and see if they're a good fit.
But I understand that a lot of companies don't even really train people.
They might say, oh, here's a video to watch beforehand.
But for interviewers, I think the main thing is that there's really no excuse to go into a meeting unprepared because it is a very life altering decision for the person who you're having a conversation with.
So go in there at least with, I think, three things that you want to assess that person on.
And the first is obviously just getting to know them.
You know, how do they interact with the environment?
How do they interact with you?
What has been their experience?
Why do you want this job?
Why do you want to work at this employer?
So go in there with a game plan and try to figure out if this person can do the job, can they do it well.
And then the other thing is, to make sure it is a conversation.
Because I think a lot of hiring managers, they try and explain what the job is.
It may be something from the job description that they've already read.
So make sure there's a back and forth, otherwise you're just wasting everyone's time.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, that's critical to do some pre thinking about what is it you want to assess.
I think there's some other things to be thinking about as an interviewer.
One is, if this is the ideal candidate, the interview can serve as the beginning of your onboarding, right?
You have the opportunity to set expectations and goals and norms.
You can also be sensing where this person will fit, and who and how they will best learn to ramp them up to be most effective most quickly.
So really seeing it as something that can serve a purpose beyond assessing is this a qualified candidate, I think makes a lot of sense.
And, you know, listening I think is the critical part as an interviewer.
Listening to what is said, listening to what is not said.
I always try, when I'm interviewing, to be thinking about what's a good follow up question to give me more insight and to demonstrate that I really heard what the person was saying.
Sometimes what I would do as an interviewer, and I'd love to get your opinion on this, I often will challenge an interviewee to help me connect their answer to how they think that will play out in the job.
Because a lot of people just give me information and I'm looking, how does that information relate to the job.
And it gives me a good assessment of if they've done their homework.
What do you think is appropriate as an interviewer to, to be a little challenging, to push on some of those answers?
Is that appropriate?
Not appropriate?
What do you think?
Andrew Seaman: I think it's appropriate to push as much as you need to assess their abilities.
And what I'm looking for when I talk to people is, how they're drawing from what they have done to apply to what they are doing now.
I don't expect them to have all the answers, but I expect them to say, oh, I did X and that can get me to Y.
But from an interviewer's perspective, yeah, I think you should be able to push.
And also, I think you can warm the water a little bit by giving them an example.
By saying, in the past I worked at this company, and when I came here, I did this.
So it's almost like you are showing them the blueprint for answering the question, and it makes it a little bit more fair.
So that way, in case that person, maybe it's not their strong suit, maybe you are catching them off guard, it gives them the level playing field to other people.
One thing I'm very also conscious of is when you're interviewing people is we all learn differently, we all act differently.
And I don't want someone's necessarily social anxiety or their quirks or anything like that to necessarily stop from a good candidate getting through the process.
So that's something that I always think about.
And I wanted to ask you, from the flip side, what is your suggestion for Interviewees?
Because I think a lot of times interviewees go in, and obviously they may be faced with an unskilled interviewer.
What is your advice for really nailing an interview?
Matt Abrahams: Yeah, I spent a lot of time thinking about this and in fact we did some work together where I shared some of this.
So to me, it's a process.
So the first thing you really need to be thinking about is what is the role and what does the company really need?
So you have to start by understanding that.
And doing the research and reflection that's required.
I think it's critical then to identify themes that you want to represent about yourself in the interview that are relevant and appropriate for what you've learned about the needs of the company and their expectations.
So a theme might be, I'm incredibly reliable or I'm very technically competent in this one programming skill or this other technology or science.
And with each theme, stockpile specific examples.
And examples can be things like anecdotes or stories.
They can be statistics, perhaps acknowledgments, maybe you won an award or a boss said something positive to you.
So with each theme, I'm thinking in advance, what might be some things that I could say when the time is appropriate that represent those.
So we're always trying to think about how can I show this information rather than just tell it?
So I do that work in advance, and that's stockpiling that you can do.
And then when you're in the moment, and somebody asks you a question, think about, as soon as you hear the question, say, that's a question where I'd really like to demonstrate this theme.
Or these two themes.
And then it becomes an activity of assembly rather than generating ideas in the moment.
Think of it almost like a recipe.
I'm a lousy cook.
But if I have a recipe and I have the ingredients ready, there's a chance that I might put together a pretty decent meal.
And that's what we're trying to do.
I think one specific recipe that works really well is a structure.
And those who listen in on this know that I'm a big fan of structure.
It's a structure that involves three steps.
A, D, D.
Answer, detailed example, describe the relevance.
So when a question comes in, I answer the question, I give a concrete example, and then I explain why it's relevant to the job.
So what might be fun for the listeners, Andrew, is if you take on the role of interviewer, and I'll be an interviewee, and let's imagine that you are interviewing me to be a podcast host.
What might be a reasonable question that you would ask, that's not just a yes no answer, or some numeric answer, to see if I would make a good podcast host?
Andrew Seaman: One of the questions I would ask is, sometimes schedules get shift around and things pop up unexpectedly, so how would you prepare for an interview when you haven't had enough time?
Matt Abrahams: I've had this happen a lot to me, so the ability to be spontaneous is critical and it's a skill that I have been working on and developing over my whole career.
I have been called into many circumstances as a teacher, and as a coach, and as a parent even, where things have had to change in the moment, and I've been able to adjust and adapt.
There was a time where I showed up for my class, and the room had flooded that night and nobody knew.
I opened up the door and there's water all over the place and my students were outside.
So we adjusted and adapt.
We moved to a different space, I had people in different groups, and I changed the lesson.
So I feel very comfortable in my ability to adjust and adapt.
And if you were to hire me, I certainly would bring those skills to bear in the interviews I did, in the way in which we did the programming that we had.
So in that answer, what I tried to do is say, yes, I'm somebody who's flexible.
And then gave some specific examples so you can see what that might look like.
You could probably imagine the flooded room and me moving students around.
And then at the end, I tried to connect the dots.
We often assume that if I give you information, that you can connect those dots, but it's not always the case.
My very first psychology professor started the very first class he had and said this, and it rings true to this day.
The funny thing about common sense is it's not so common.
And we think, oh, they'll just connect the dots.
If I explain this one story, you really have to say what it means.
So to me, it's answer the question, detailed example, describe the relevance.
And if you can remember that, you will truly add value to what it is you're saying.
Andrew Seaman: I really do like your thematic approach to that, and especially creating that sort of connection with your answer is so crucial.
And actually, in resumes, everyone used to put an objective.
And I always tell people, I said, that's useless.
Your objective is to get a job.
But people have started adding summaries, and they'll just basically regurgitate a little bit what's on their resume.
But what I tell people is your resume is sort of a canvas, and you're making them connect the dots for you.
And people are not good at that.
But with a summary, what you can do right at the top, is set the tone for how they're going to read that.
So if you say, I'm a project manager that brings experience from several different fields.
You're starting to connect that dot for them.
So they're not viewing you as a person who has bounced around from several industries.
They're thinking, oh, this person has had a cohesive career.
So I really like that approach.
Matt Abrahams: I think that's relevant to all communication.
The way we frame it and set it is the way people hear it.
And that's important.
There's one other strength of the ADD method or any structure is it helps package the information up so people can remember it.
And in turn, share what you said with a better degree of accuracy.
So for example, when I'm interviewing with you, you probably in that moment aren't going to say you're hired.
You probably have to go turn around, talk to others, represent me, versus the other people that others have interviewed, and then have a discussion.
So if I package it up well, you can probably share that information in a better way.
We've talked about what interviewers can do.
We've talked about what an interviewee can do.
What do you think about the follow up?
So if I am interviewing for a job, what should I do to follow up?
What's appropriate?
You know, do I wait a day?
Do I wait a week?
People are afraid of being ghosted.
What's your recommendation for follow up?
Andrew Seaman: Yeah, it's a great question because it's probably the most terrifying part of the interview.
Actually, it's, it's waiting to hear how things went.
What I tell job seekers is, sometimes you will not hear anything because companies are very protective.
They don't want to open themselves to lawsuits, so they don't want to give any sort of feedback.
So what I often tell people is that the follow up actually starts in the interview itself.
Because you want to leave a door open, so that way you can come back in.
So really try and build a strong connection during the interview, so that way you're not leaving the possibility that the door is closed and you're not going to get back in.
So, you know, if you are interviewing with someone, make sure you connect with them on LinkedIn.
Make sure that you ask them for general advice.
Just because it's an interview for a job doesn't mean that you can't say, you know, I saw on your wall that, you know, you went to school in Philadelphia.
Do you have any suggestions for a restaurant there?
And maybe they say, oh, it was a long time ago.
And you can say, well, there's got to be a good spot somewhere.
And then they might say, you know, X, Y, or Z.
Or maybe there's a book on their shelf.
And you said, I've been meaning to read that, do you think it's worthwhile?
And that way you're forming more of a connection.
I think thank you notes are a great tool because you can say, oh, thank you so much for telling me about that book.
I found it, and I read it, and I thought it was so fantastic.
So it's almost just keeping that conversation going.
You don't want to be annoying about it, but you want to keep that conversation flowing.
Matt Abrahams: I am very old school with this as well.
I do think a follow up thank you is appropriate.
I really like your idea of starting that process in the actual interview itself.
If nothing else, you know, some hiring managers, I remember when I was a hiring manager, we were growing very rapidly.
I was interviewing lots and lots of people.
Something like that would remind me of who the person was.
So I think it's very important.
And it also, in the thank you note, beyond reminding people about who you are, it allows you to reinforce certain points or perhaps, change things up a little bit.
You might say, and ever since our conversation, I've really been thinking about this, and here's where I've landed.
So you can really add some emphasis.
Andrew Seaman: Excellent.
Matt Abrahams: I want to step back, and we've talked about interviewing, we've talked about presence, but I want to take a broader view, which is really about careers.
What advice do you have on how to leverage online communities and tools to help us with our career growth, where we see our trajectory?
Andrew Seaman: Yeah, it's a great question.
And I think, what I suggest people do, is they think of their careers as sort of concentric circles.
And you have the people that you're closest to at work, you have then the larger workforce that you're part of, and then you have your profession.
And I always think it's important to have people within all of those spheres, because they're going to be the ones who can help you grow.
So the immediate group of people, they're going to be able to tell you what's happening on the ground.
The larger circle will help you, um, learn a little bit about what's happening throughout the company.
And then that wider circle is going to tell you what's happening in the industry as a whole.
And I think having those connections with people really help you navigate all of those different areas.
So if you're having trouble maybe with your manager, maybe one of your close co workers can help you, or maybe someone else in that.
But the idea is almost like you want a spiderweb that goes from the center.
And that way if things maybe fall apart at your company, if there are lay offs, you want that web to be able to support you . So look for professional organizations.
There are a lot of groups online, there's LinkedIn groups, there's Slack channels.
So that's why I always say networking is the rocket fuel for a career, even if you don't want to call it networking.
Matt Abrahams: Right.
I think encouraging people, and some people aren't comfortable doing that networking, but really thinking about, that's part of your job.
And it's beneficial to the companies as well for its employees to have strong networks, because it can help funnel in new employees.
If there has to be a reduction in force, those folks can get taken care of perhaps through those networks.
So I think that's important.
One thing I'll add to this is.
If you're looking to change careers or to see the next step in your career, using tools like LinkedIn and others, you can find people who have gotten to the place you want or the company you want.
You can look at how did they get there.
What kind of things did they do.
What kind of groups are they part of.
And you can begin to model your trajectory after some of these people, and certainly you could get connections that you might not have had so you can have those conversations.
Speaking of conversations, this has been a lot of fun.
I've never done this sort of back and forth thing, and I enjoyed it, so thank you.
Before we end, I'd like to end the way I do, at least on my podcast.
I have three questions I'd like to ask.
One I'm making special just for you, Andrew, and the other two I ask everybody.
So we've talked about interviewing.
I'm curious, what is one response you use to the interview question of, do you have any questions for me?
It's often the last question that gets asked.
How do you answer that?
Andrew Seaman: I think it really depends on the situation.
If I'm feeling a little bit confident in a job situation, or a career situation, I will usually try and go for the throat and say, based on what I told you, what is the thing that will keep me from either getting this job, or what is the thing that maybe will trip me up for a promotion?
And I'm just trying to let the person know, first of all, I understand that I have a weakness, because we all do, and that I also know that there's a possibility that I'm not going to get this.
And I think, again, you have to read the room, because not everyone's going to appreciate that question, but It can be a very direct question that people, I think, respect.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
I like that.
And I think it's a good question to ask if things are right, if the situation is right.
The question I always like to ask is, if you were in my position, what's the one thing you wish you would have asked?
And I have found this to be a very enlightening question.
So when somebody says, do you have any questions for me?
I say, yes.
When you were in this position, what do you wish you would have asked before you got hired at this company?
And I've gotten amazingly insightful questions.
Like, oh, our benefits program stinks.
Or I really wish I would have known about these two people and how it's challenging.
So it's really interesting.
So I think the bottom line is be strategic in how you answer that question and you should have an answer to that question.
Question number two, Andrew, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Andrew Seaman: I again, come from a very nerdy journalism background.
So I'm always going to go back to Walter Cronkite.
He was a very flawed person, but at the same time, I very much respected the work he put into who he was.
And he had so much weight to him.
And a lot of that was cultivated by CBS, which is the company he worked for.
But I very much respected the fact that he took his job in journalism so seriously and that he understood the weight of who he was.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
And he was well respected for having a steady hand and a steady voice during some unsteady times.
Question number three, final question.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
Andrew Seaman: Being genuine, being truthful, and also humor.
I think there are some professors here that have written a book on the importance of humor in business.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
Authenticity is important.
Being truthful is really important.
You're referring to the work of Jennifer Aaker and Naomi Bagdonas, who've been guests on the show.
Their book, Humor, Seriously, is all about how to leverage humor in a work environment, so it's appropriate.
At the end of the day, Andrew, first, thank you for this.
And second, I heard several themes throughout what you talked about.
It's about being authentic, it's about being present and connected.
And it's about making sure that you're responding to what's needed in the moment.
And it is your obligation in your career and in your interviews to take an active role and to be very strategic in it.
And I think that advice is really helpful.
And thank you for this experiment that we did today.
Andrew Seaman: Yeah.
Thank you so much for having me.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about planning your career, please listen to episode 118 with Dori Clark and episode 147 with Whitney Johnson.
To hear the episode about humor in the workplace, be sure to check out episode 62.
This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with thanks to Podium Podcast Company and LinkedIn.
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