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In this episode, we dive deep into our personal histories with food, body image, and the societal pressures that have shaped our relationships with eating. Scott shares his surprising journey to a healthy, intuitive approach to food despite growing up without positive role models, while Jess opens up about her struggles with diet culture, food rules, and the pressure to "bounce back" after having three children.
Through our candid conversation, we explore the impact of childhood trauma on Scott's relationship with food and how cooking became a source of escape, control, and comfort for him from a young age. We discuss the role of hypervigilance in Scott's eating habits and how his ability to listen to his body's hunger and fullness cues has contributed to his healthy attitude towards food.
Jess, on the other hand, shares her experiences with restrictive eating, body image issues, and the societal expectations placed on women's bodies, especially after pregnancy. We examine the gender differences in body standards and the unfair scrutiny women face compared to the acceptance of the "dad bod."
As parents to three young daughters, we also discuss how to create a positive body image in children. We share our approach to exposing our children to diverse cuisines, the importance of family meals, and our goal of raising intuitive eaters who trust their bodies and enjoy food without guilt.
Throughout the episode, we offer insights and strategies for overcoming food rules, finding balance through moderation, and learning to trust one's body. We also highlight the power of food to connect us to each other and to different cultures, sharing our own experiences of exploring the world through meals.
This thought-provoking and relatable episode is a must-listen for anyone who has ever struggled with their relationship with food or body image and for parents looking to raise children with healthy, intuitive eating habits.
Get 10% OFF parenting courses and kids' printable activities at Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/courses/] using the code ROBOTUNICORN.
Learn more about the Solving Bedtime Battles course here [https://nurturedfirst.com/courses/solving-bedtime-battles/].
Credits:
Editing by The Pod Cabin [https://thepodcabin.com/]
Artwork by Wallflower Studio [https://www.wallflowerstudio.co/]
Production by Nurtured First [https://nurturedfirst.com/]
Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn.
We are so glad that you are here.
Okay, so I feel like it's hilarious that we're starting an episode about food and body image and you have literally a bag of chocolate covered.
Oh, yeah.
And this is not planned.
He just has a bag of chocolate covered almonds.
That was hungry.
Yeah, they look delicious.
I'm actually jealous.
You want some?
Yeah, I'll take one.
Anyway, this show I was talking to Scott earlier today and the topic is body image and food and when we do these shows, the two of us, we don't have anything prepped.
We don't
really go over all the notes that we want to talk about.
But the one thing I did tell Scott is I need to understand this is something that we've never really dived into too deep.
how you can be the person with the healthiest relationship with food I feel like I've ever known.
You eat when you're hungry.
You'll eat what you want to eat.
You mostly eat pretty nutritious foods, I would say, for the most part, but you also are not afraid of eating.
like the chocolate covered almonds that you're eating right now.
And you did not grow up with healthy models around food whatsoever.
So
No, not at all.
It's so interesting to me.
You are the person with the healthiest relationship with food that I think I've ever met.
You've never in our entire relationship been on a diet.
You know that you need to move your body and and you do.
You eat kind of whatever you want to eat, but you mostly eat nutritious foods.
Like
How do you think that happened?
Like I really am curious.
It's a very good question.
I know we talked about this a little bit last week that you were potentially going to ask a question like this, and I was I've been reflecting since.
And honestly, I think as dumb as this might sound, there's multiple reasons, but like the biggest reason is because of the childhood I had to like constantly reflect on myself if I wanted to get out of
Like basically raised my kids in the way I felt I should have been raised.
Right.
So essentially it comes down to I think I've been so self-reflective for so long that even something as simple as food, I notice
Let's say if I eat too much, I feel like crap, so I just don't eat too much.
Like I will sometimes, and then I always feel like ugh
I just feel so sluggish and I can't do anything and I don't know.
I just I feel like because of the fact that I'm always constantly trying to reflect on every aspect of
The way I think, the way my body feels, the way I'm breathing, whatever, all that stuff.
That has caused me to like constantly evaluate when I eat certain foods, I feel a certain way.
When I have alcohol, I feel a certain way.
So like for me having two beers is a lot.
Like I'll have alcohol and I don't have a problem drinking, but I also know if I have more than two beers.
Maybe this is just because I'm getting old, but I have a headache the next day.
I don't know.
I don't feel great after doing it, so then I'm always trying to evaluate.
Okay, how can I feel better more regularly?
Okay, a couple things.
I've also been reflecting on your healthy food choices.
And I'll just throw a couple things out.
You tell me if anything lands.
Mm-hmm.
Hypervigilance.
Yeah.
Does that land?
Yeah, of course it does.
Always?
Maybe you can tell the people listening a little bit about the role that hypervigilance has played in your life because of growing up in just a little bit of context, won't go super into it in this episode, but you grew up in a very traumatic childhood
A lot of various traumatic events happen to you as a kid.
Yeah.
Abuses.
Various abuses and also losses.
Which obviously as a child it makes you very hyper aware of your surroundings
It makes your defenses be constantly up because you're trying to protect yourself.
Yep.
And I've often wondered how being someone with your defenses constantly up and being always hyper-vigilant
has impacted your food choices or if that has any relationship to the way that you are reflective about your choices around everything, specifically around food for this episode.
Yeah, I mean that would be it
Part of maybe self-reflection is maybe I'm being naive into thinking it's self-reflection.
Maybe it's more hyper-vigilance that's causing it.
But I mean I've always loved food.
Like before I ended up going to school for engineering, I was actually applying to schools to become a chef.
So I was I've always been interested in food, and food is like one of the joys in my life.
Is trying new foods, going to interesting little restaurants, whatever.
I don't know.
It's it's always been something that I very much enjoy.
Do you have a memory from being a child that's positive that's associated with food
I feel like when I was a kid, cooking food was a bit of a distraction because I was the one that usually had to make dinner.
Like even from a very young age, I would have to make dinner for our family.
So it's just something I don't know.
I was saying something to a colleague of ours here that I actually I remember getting receiving a gift of this Italian cookbook that most of the things I wouldn't have been allowed to make because the ingredients would have been too expensive for us
But I would stay up at night with a flashlight and just flip through the pages, look at all the pictures, and I loved watching cooking shows.
I feel like it was kind of a probably distraction because I'm a more sensitive person
So even the taste of food, I feel things very strongly.
You know that.
Like we we'll go out for dinner and I'm very different the way I handle
the tastes of foods, the way I think about food is different from the way you think about it.
And I'm I don't know, I feel like I'm much more sensitive to those things.
Maybe it's because of the hypervigilance.
But
It's always been like this kind of comforting thing trying something.
It's a little bit different trying to cook something that's a little bit more complicated.
And then now with
more of a scientific background, like being an engineer and learning a bit more about I'm just very curious in general.
I feel like now it's I find the marriage between the art and science of cooking so interesting.
So like how you can use buttermilk to soften
like chicken before you roast it.
I just find that very interesting how that happens.
There's so many factors.
There's the hypervigilance factor.
Mm-hmm.
What I think from this is just my perspective, not as your therapist, but as your wife who knows you for a really long time and likes to reflect deeply on things.
My perspective is a couple of things.
I think when you were a little kid, food was potentially an escape.
For you?
Cooking was something that you enjoyed because it was a distraction from the trauma that was going on around you and it was a sense of control.
Yeah.
I think.
Yeah, definitely that
Yes.
I will say the sense of control that I had because then I could make the meals or the things that I wanted to eat.
Yeah.
It's one thing you had that if I cook dinner, sure I'm seven.
But if I cook dinner, I can cook what I want and I can eat what I want.
In a chaotic environment, everything else is not going well, there's that one thing that you can latch on to.
It's a feeling of control.
It's actually annoying that I haven't thought of that before.
Thanks a lot for that.
Well it's truly fascinating to see your love for food and your ability to eat and enjoy food and everything like that, given the fact that you didn't grow up with models for that.
There's a lot of disordered eating in my family.
So So to go back to my points, I think the control thing is huge for you.
That's why I wanted to throw that out there.
I think
you are reflective because of the hypervigilance potentially.
Yeah, right.
Not for sure, but I think Well I think actually being self-reflective and hypervigilance, like maybe it's like on a continuum
where maybe your hypervigilance kind of forced you into self reflection, but it actually has turned out to be helpful for you.
Uh it's only not helpful when you're hypervigilant all the time, right?
T that's happened as well.
And then I wondered too about the positive memories that you have growing up where either A
you're cooking and people are receiving it well, whether it's like your little brother and sister that you're cooking for or family and friends.
And I'm thinking about the times that you've talked to me about when you go to grandparents' house and they've cooked bread and it's delicious.
Because both sets of grandparents were grandma and grandpa, we had to come up with names to differentiate them.
So the one set of grandparents was grandma and grandpa who makes the bread.
because we would make bread with them quite often when we would go over there and we would ask them, Can we make bread with you today?
And we make like raisin bread and and that was a fun thing that we did.
So yeah, I I will say that was also like a fond memory that I have of
Food.
Yeah, and then I think, you know, always.
It's not about just the food, right?
Of course, about the connection.
Yeah, about the relationship.
Yeah.
Always.
Yeah, but I I think in your case that that is actually very true.
Like it is was not just about the food.
You enjoyed food because of the time that that brought
closeness to your family like when you're creating food immediately there's people that are gonna come eat with you so then right away you have closeness yeah you have a sense of control over what you're eating so it's one thing that you know I'm gonna for sure like
this which as a sensitive person that's huge, right?
Because there's probably a ton of foods that you didn't like.
You are probably full aware of that by now.
We'll get to now.
I'm trying to just start with start with then and then I want to get to now.
So I feel like you were a sensitive child being fed stuff that just did not suit your sensory needs.
So cooking almost is also like a protective factor for you.
Like if I cook what I want to eat
then I cannot have to eat this thing that actually physically pains me to eat.
Or if it physically pains me, but there were some times where I'm gagging.
Well yeah, like your gagging.
Probably isn't unnecessarily grossing the output.
Yeah, like a pasta or something.
Mushy just basically a pile of mush.
Yeah.
Yep.
So I I feel like there's so many protective things.
But then the fact that you went from that, so I can see how food was actually this
one maybe saving grace for you in childhood.
It was the thing that really actually kept you going.
Dr.
Deborah McNamara has a beautiful book called Nourished.
It's all about food and the relationship that has with like connection and everything like that.
But one thing I remember I was watching her talk and one thing that she was saying was, you know, a lot of angry kids grow up to be chefs.
And I was listening to her talk and she goes, Because imagine you're an angry kid and chop, chop, chop, chop, chop
And she's like demonstrating all the actions that you even have to do when you're cooking.
And it's like mindfulness, it's the chop.
Yeah, that is true.
It's incredibly mindful, the process of cooking a full meal
It can be I mean as a parent it's a lot more challenging.
Yeah, not to do that.
But yeah, definitely when I was cooking like a big fancy meal or
trying to cook m meals from different parts of the world.
Think of all the sensory experiences.
It's cathartic.
Yeah, it's you have to be incredibly mindful because you're I'm trying to cut everything
precisely and it's the sensation of cut cutting.
It's the smells.
It's the experience of being fully in the moment, like there's an escape to it.
There's nothing better than the smell of
Frying onions and garlic.
Oh, and salivating, just thinking about it.
Actually, can I get more of the chocolate?
Yeah, you can have more of the chocolate.
So she talks about all those things and when she was describing that, it really made me think about
you as a child and another reason why cooking was such an outlet for you.
So I thought that was really beautiful.
So let's let's take it from there.
So now you're a kid, you have this relationship with cooking.
Cooking is something that is cathartic for you.
It's a release.
It's a mindful experience.
It's an escape from the trauma.
You are a sensitive kid, so cooking is something that you actually enjoy to eat.
How did that shift when you entered into being a teen
Because I do feel like you went through a period of time where you did not have a healthy relationship with food as a teenager.
Yeah, I think that kind of comes down to I worked with someone that I very much looked up to.
Who they weren't a great role model for like the food aspect of body image was oh they had I think of low body image.
So anyways, I ended up going through, I don't know, a few years where I would almost eat nothing in the day.
Yeah.
So you did go through a period of time with what I would label as like some disordered eating habits.
I can say that because we were friends at the time and I remember you wouldn't eat like at all.
Mm-hmm.
And I think you were really a mirror, like you were kind of mirroring this other adult that you looked up to in the workplace that you were in at the time, thinking like
Oh, okay, wait, hold on.
I look up to this guy.
This is how he talks about food.
He never eats.
He has a very low body image.
He talks very poorly about his body.
And at that time you're kind of forming that attachment relationship with him.
Poorly about his body, but just you look up to someone, so let's say our girls, if they're looking up to us about how we eat, or like how they should eat, and we're basically eating nothing throughout the day.
And constantly just having tiny little snacks, but that's all you'll have.
Yeah.
They're gonna learn to do the same thing 'cause we're we're the people they trust.
So I think I kind of attribute it to being a similar situation where it was someone I looked up to
That's what they did.
It's not like they talked poorly about their body or anything like that.
No, okay.
That's that's not what it was.
It was more just the way they ate and the way they kind of acted.
Sort of caused me to do the same things.
I was mirroring someone I respected
Yeah, exactly.
I think that makes a lot of sense and a lot of teenagers and children do that.
But they respect them and then they think, well, that's how I should be.
Yeah.
So that was teenage years.
I think teenage Scott definitely struggled with food and eating and nourishing yourself and taking care of yourself in the way that you should have or maybe could've.
No, I mean the situation I had at home
It probably helped that it was another thing that I could control.
Yes, control was definitely a piece there.
And it is with so many people that have disordered eating habits.
Like I think we think it's about the food.
But really it's about that sense of control that happens when you don't eat.
Like that's one the one thing that you can control.
And maybe in high school that felt like
Oh I'm gonna shift to this cause everything feels really out of control and chaotic and I can control how much I eat.
Yeah, I think that I think that was what it was.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
And he said to our daughter, thank you for asking.
Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
And that's a line that he learned straight from our new body safety and consent course at Nurture First.
So this new body safety and consent course is taught by me.
So Jess, if you listen to this podcast, you know me.
I'm a child therapist and a mom of three, and I have taught body safety and consent education for years.
This course takes all my years of experience teaching this education and gives you calm, age-appropriate language for body parts, consent, and boundaries.
You'll learn how to teach your kids that no means no, you'll learn how to teach them to read facial cues, you'll talk about safe and unsafe.
safe touch and you'll even teach them about their uh oh feeling.
There's guidance inside this course for the real life stuff like tickling that goes too far and even the difference between a secret and a surprise.
We made this course at Nurture First because research shows that body safety education helps kids speak
up sooner and we want that for our family, for Scott and I, but also for you.
So check the course out at nurturefirst.
com slash body safety and to save 10% use the code
robot unicorn.
And just full disclosure here, we are the creators of this course and we're so proud of it.
So as we kind of entered into more university days
And for those listening, yes, Scott and I have been friends since the ninth grade and we started dating in high school.
So we have been together through all of these different seasons of life, which is
Pretty cool.
Yeah, I don't know how many years we've been together, but it's been a long time.
Probably close to twenty years.
Been enough.
Been enough years.
So
Entering into university, what would you say your relationship with food was like then?
I think it was I mean similar to what it was like in high school, but it got better over time.
Cause I'm hanging out with buddies of mine, like new friends of mine in the first year of university and we're going to the cafeteria
And you only have so much money to spend at the university.
And there are certain places like the one Chinese restaurant like that was on campus, they would let you purchase a single plate.
But again, because we're hungry university students
Like you're paying for the plate of food, not like what you're choosing.
So we would just pile our plates so high with food.
And it's not a small plate either.
And then we'd take whatever was left over and we'd some of the guys would eat the whole thing.
And no, we were hungry.
We were active.
We were working out.
I feel like it started to get better then.
Yeah.
Because I'm seeing different people on the way they're interacting.
And I feel like that was probably the first time in your life that you consistently had food with others around.
Yeah.
Like you had some family dinners growing up.
It's not like you never had that.
But a lot of dinners were alone.
Yep.
That was always a very stark difference between my house and your house when I come visit you.
We would just like fry ourselves an egg and eat it
Whereas at my family's house was always like at six o'clock you sit down, you have dinner as a family.
So I feel like when you went to university, that was the first time you were always eating with your buddies, or you were eating with me, or you were eating out with someone
So first time where food became a time of relationship almost every single time that you ate.
And you could go out with a different friend every time.
So I feel like there was a piece of that that was really healing for you in your journey with
food and eating.
Yeah.
And I remember in university my first internship was at like a engineering or two-on-die company, designing equipment and tools.
And I had mono during this internship.
And
I could not eat.
Like I just physically was so sick and I turned yellow and like it was not good.
And I'm a big guy.
Like
I'm now around 200 pounds, 6'3.
Like I'm a pretty tall, big guy, but I was that height and like I think I was just under 170 pounds
because I lost so much weight while I w I had mono.
And I remember my boss at this place was so concerned.
I can't forget the conversation because we
ended up going out and he like ordered me so much food at this restaurant.
He was so caring.
He ordered all this food for me and I was like honestly I I just can't I can't eat it.
He just came out and asked on the drive back to the office afterwards.
He's like, Scott, I just have to ask, like, do you have an eating disorder or like anorexia or something like that?
Because I'm so concerned.
You you started at like a normal weight and it's not like I worked there that long on my internship.
Yeah.
I was like in the one ninety pound range at that point.
Then I dropped like twenty pounds over the course of just over a month.
Yeah, it was wild.
When you had mono, you were so ill.
And I remember that conversation so vividly because he was like trying to get me all this different food.
And I w it was
Weird because it's like it's not like there was any real purpose for us going out, so I thought it was kind of weird.
But then on the drive back he asked, like in such a caring way, because he's like, I've seen this before and I just I feel
Like I need to ask you this because it doesn't look like you're doing well right now.
Yeah, it's true.
And honestly, I really respect him for having the courage to ask the question.
And he was ready to help you.
And for a man to do that, man to man
That is really beautiful that he felt like he could do that for you.
I know it's it's cool.
Like I respect him to this day for multiple reasons, but that in particular was like you could tell
I'm just this random intern student.
This is the owner of this company taking me out.
There's no real reason to do that, but he was just so concerned about the fact that I was looking so sick
Yeah, that was really that was really beautiful and I feel like that time of your life food was very complex for actually a long time after that, not because of body image issues or control or anything, but just because you were so ill with mono and it really impacted your
It took me like a year to get over that bout of mono.
Yeah.
It was a long time.
That was really brutal.
If you kind of fast
Fast forward to now.
I know that's like many years later.
Now you're dad, and like I mentioned at the top of the podcast, like you have a very healthy relationship with food.
And I think what blows me away
And I this episode I wanted to really talk about you.
People can let me know if they want another episode on food or we talk about me.
That's gonna be like three hours long if we unpack my issues with food.
But I'll I'll briefly talk about my own issues, which is
I feel like I've never had that very easy, healthy relationship with food.
I think right now in my life is probably the time I've had
the most healthy relationship with food that I ever have.
Like if I want a chocolate covered almond, I'm gonna eat it, but I don't need to eat like a hundred of them, you know, and I feel like
My whole life has been this battle between myself, understanding what my body really needs or craves, and then having these food rules that I impose on myself
And I can't remember one time, I think it was last summer, like I just wanted this big huge bowl of buttery popcorn.
Like I just wanted to have that
And I was telling myself this story of you can't have that.
Like that's really unhealthy for you.
It's bad.
Like you're gonna gain a bunch of weight if you continue to eat these bowls of popcorn.
And I would ask you, like, Scott, do you think I should have this bowl of popcorn?
You're like, just eat it.
Like, why are you asking me if if I should have this popcorn or not?
And I feel like this last summer like kind of battling with those things, which I also feel like it was the first time in years that I wasn't pregnant.
I wasn't breastfeeding, so I could actually
focus on what I was eating and consuming and it became very apparent to me that I had to do some of my own reflective work around food.
So seeing me kind of battle with that, like what comes to your mind when I'm asking you questions like that?
Like, hey, do you think I should have this big bowl of buttery popcorn?
What goes to your mind?
I mean, I feel like I'm in general just more pragmatic
than you, especially when it comes to food.
And especially, like I feel like we skipped over some of the aspects of what brought me to my love for food and how I'm
I don't really have like rules on what I eat and how I eat.
I don't I feel like I'm pragmatic on it.
Just because it's like if you want to eat it and you don't feel like
you're sluggish or you feel gross after eating it because you had too much or like you're still getting the nutrients you need in the day and this is just like your snack at night.
Like why not eat it?
I think
We should talk about your love for food and everything like that.
But do you think growing up, did you have images or messages, sorry, about your body?
Like did you ever
feel like oh I should be thinner or I should be more bulky or I should be I remember in grade six I was the heaviest kid in our class and
I remember my one grandmother.
It's like an older I don't know, an older person thing to do I guess.
But like, Oh yeah, Scott, you're getting kinda chubby, aren't you?
And that was like probably the first time that I really thought about that.
What was your first thought when she said, Oh yeah, Scott, you're getting a little bit chubby.
What's your first thought?
I don't know if I can remember that exactly, but I was definitely more conscious of the fact that I was bigger than other kids.
Like I wouldn't say I was gigantic by any means.
Like I was a chunky kid, but that's about it
So I don't I don't know, I maybe focused a little bit more on what I was eating and how much I was eating.
And I definitely did then and like we talked about until let's say part way through university that I feel like I started really
thinking about like recognizing within myself when I eat this I feel good.
When I eat this, I don't really feel that good.
If I eat this much, I feel all right.
If I eat too much or too little, I feel
Again, not in the right way.
I don't I just think over time I've slowly done things.
When I was traveling all the time, I would get to go to lots of fancy restaurants.
I would experience some of the best foods that exist just because my job allowed me to do so and I can bring customers with me and
There was definitely that aspect of relationship just over a meal at this amazing restaurant that no one knows about type of thing.
And like I started to realize how fun
food can be and how much I don't know, certain cultures also you see that, like some of our colleagues.
They talk about food as though it's like this one thing that they do with their family.
They cook all these meals together.
Like it's a holiday weekend here in Canada coming up and
They're spending a day with their family cooking and enjoying food together and eating food as it's being made and they're talking about how they experience that with their kids.
And you can see like it can be a
truly beautiful thing.
And I feel like we're kind of doing that with our kids now.
We're like experiencing delicious foods and trying things with them and trying way more different types of foods than we ever did.
As kids.
Yeah.
I think that's something that you saw as time went on, is that food, yet it's also togetherness.
So like food is a way.
Maybe I'd never really experienced that as a kid
So I think that started when you started traveling for work and you would go out with colleagues and you would try out new restaurants and I think it became this thing of like, Oh, this is something I can find a new cool restaurant, I can take my colleagues here.
It's a point of conversation, it's a point of connection.
Yeah.
Like there's still some restaurants that I talked with a few of the customers that I had back then and still now they bring up some of the places that we went to.
Yeah, you you were amaz like
Scott, this is a side note, but like Scott is known in our friend group and in anyone he knows as the person who knows where to go
to get good food.
Like you know the hole in the wall restaurants, you know all sorts of different places to go.
And he has a very good sense of where to eat.
And that's something that you really enjoy.
Like that's kind of a hobby
before we had kids, that would be our thing.
Like we would go to like the most hole in the wall restaurants and like we definitely got some not so great ones.
That would be like some of the best food that I've ever had though.
Like I still remember one trip that I went on to California.
It was close to the
Mexican border.
And I definitely got food poisoning from this place.
I can't remember the name of it, but it was some of the greatest food that I've ever had in my life.
Yeah.
We're not afraid to go into a place that doesn't look the cleanest.
Yeah, this place had water dripping from it.
From a ceiling, like there was a stray dog at the door.
So food is just a way of it's delicious and we love it, but it's more than that, right?
It's it's about that time that you have, the memories that you're building.
And I think that's what I love about a holiday weekend that's centered around like, oh, we're gonna have dinner here and dinner here because it means time together with family here and eating and it's a way of connecting.
And I think we really try and instill that in our children as well.
So I think going back to your question about you like wanting a bowl of buttery popcorn and it's like a Friday night and we're gonna watch a movie and like
I don't know.
I don't think it's a question that should be asked.
If you're not feeling overly full from your dinner and you're feeling, hey, I'm kinda hungry for a snack and
I want to enjoy something and like at this point I see the value in food more than just it is nourishment and that's often how we talk.
in our family about what food is and like there's certain foods that provide more nourishment and some that provide less and but I think like something as simple as a b
bowl of popcorn.
If that's what you enjoy, I don't know.
It's not like you're eating it all day long, every day.
It's this treat that you're having.
And it's just a nice thing to have while you're watching a movie together with us.
Yeah, it's so interesting because for you, it's just so easy like that, right?
It's just you're not that full.
Popcorn is associated with comfort in a movie night.
We're together, let's have a bowl of popcorn
I will say, like, there's a stark difference though between we going back to the concept of body image, like I realize that there's there's a stark difference between how
Women's bodies are judged versus men's.
Yeah.
Like the concept of dad bod is almost like an accepted thing for
It's like funny as you yeah.
Yeah, as a dad.
It's like a funny thing and that's fine.
But I don't there's no like societal
Pressure.
Yeah, uh like you see the rock and there's no way I'm gonna get to that point.
I think most men realize that.
it's pretty unlikely you're gonna get to that point without spending all of your time trying to do that.
And there's no like I don't I don't feel the pressure to do that, to have just muscle upon muscle upon muscle on my body.
Yeah
or have it look a certain way, but I think even the fact that something like a dad bot is kind of an accepted thing.
I don't know that women have that.
Yeah, like a perfect example is I remember after we had our youngest, I posted a picture on Instagram and it still fully looked like I was pregnant in the picture, which of course is gonna look like that.
It just birthed a human being.
And I had probably four or five companies.
A few were like fitness influencers that were in the mom space.
I think one company that was like Diet Tease reach out to me from that story to say, hey Jess, like I can see you just had a baby.
It looks like you have that mummy tummy.
If you want help to lose that weight, let us know and we'll help you lose the weight.
And that's like within six weeks of having a child.
And of of course, okay, sure, I'm a creator and I'm in this online space, so people are gonna message me, but like
that is the people that are reaching out to moms, right?
Like, yeah, you can lose the weight and you can be fit and and like there's this pressure of bouncing back right away.
Yeah.
And to look good as a mom, like you have to be a certain shape or size.
So I guess what I wonder though, what comes first, right?
Like you start out, you didn't have a child.
See your body looks a certain way.
Then all of a sudden your body goes through like a massive change.
Like I don't know that there's anything in life that will cause your body to change as much as becoming pregnant and having a child.
Yeah.
Right.
So like I'm not gonna experience that.
It's not gonna be nearly as drastic.
So then I don't know, for me it's not like I'm looking back at what my body was even nine months ago.
Like if anything, I'm looking at like five years ago.
What what did I look like then?
But for you
I can see how literally nine months ago your body looks a certain way and then all of a sudden nine months later it's completely changed.
Completely.
And then think about having three kids.
First pregnancy I think I gained like sixty-five pounds and then lose that ish not all the way.
Have another kid, gain that much weight again.
Like I gained a lot of weight in my pregnancies.
I had a ton of water weight, a lot of swelling, especially at the end
My weight fluctuated a ton and then you're pregnant and then you're breastfeeding, so maybe you lose some and then you stop breastfeeding and then you gain some weight back.
Like being a f
Parent and then not only that, but then you have years of societal messaging, like the magazines in the 90s, like basically glorifying anorexia.
Like if you look back at some of those magazine covers, like I would never want our kids to see
what they say on those covers.
Like it's awful to see what they said about celebrities back then and and those are the messages that we're being exposed to.
Never mind messages in your own home around that.
Yes, and I would never have seen those things.
So for me a bowl of popcorn is not just a bowl of popcorn.
It's potential weight gain.
It it's societal messaging.
It's like it's so many deeper layers.
It's way easier for me.
It's so frustrating because I see you just like eat an apple turnover or have a bowl of chocolate covered almonds or whatever and you're never thinking about it.
And I always It's never a full bowl.
Never a full bill.
Yeah, because you know how to listen to your body.
That's the difference, right?
And that's been a journey I've been on, especially over the last year of okay, pause.
What does my body need right now?
Right?
What is my body telling me?
Am I hungry?
Do I actually want a chocolate almond or am I just eating it because it's there and I can't have chocolate in the house without eating all of it?
Right.
So uh this last year for me has really been about this journey of
self-trust and trying to understand what my body's actually asking me for versus like pushing that down and just being like fine I'll have three bowls of popcorn or nothing.
Yeah.
I mean I was literally just listening to a podcast episode from Dr.
Mike.
In that he was talking with a guest about dieting and the fact that like in general, dieting, I can't remember the exact quote, but it was like single-digit percentages of people over the long term maintain a diet.
Right.
And it's mostly about what causes change is either like complete change in the way someone thinks about food in their life.
or the the friends that they have, like all of those things, they change their life in order to fit a certain diet, or or they find, let's say, in air quotes, a diet that doesn't feel like a diet.
Right.
And I feel like what I do, like it doesn't feel like a diet.
It could be considered intermittent fasting because often I forget to have breakfast and I don't eat until one PM.
Like, I don't know.
You have a self-trust.
You trust yourself around food.
Yeah, I know that if I'm feeling hungry, I'm going to eat eventually.
Maybe it's not right away, but I'm never gonna go at this point a full day without eating what I need to eat
And I'm going to feel satiated by the end of the day, no problem.
Yeah, I think that's something that we a lot of us will hear and aspire to feel that way.
So I wonder, do you ever have questions that you ask yourself or like do you pause and tune in with your body in any way?
Or are you just that in tune with your body that you're just like
Oh, I'm hungry.
I think I'm gonna go eat something.
Is there an intention behind it or is this just like a natural way of living for you now?
Well, I mean at this point, like I'm not gonna look at my watch and be like, Oh, it's three forty-five, I need my mid
afternoon snack.
Right.
But I think my body has come to a point where it's just like at this time I need something.
I know that.
It's the weirdest thing, honestly, putting the kids to bed.
They're all in bed by like 7 30, 8 o'clock, and by the time they're done
Randomly enough, I feel hungry every single time.
And I have like a bowl of cereal or I have whatever some cheese and
meat and crackers and olives and that kind of stuff.
Maybe I'll have some chips one night.
Last night was our daughter's birthday, so I had a slice of ice cream cake.
Like I feel it.
I feel hungry and then I just eat
And then I think about, did I get enough nutrients in the day?
Like, I'm not calculating out exactly how many calories I eat.
I'm not calculating out exactly how much iron I'm getting or any of that stuff.
It's more how am I feeling right now?
Oh I feel like I need a salad.
Okay, I'm gonna have that for dinner tonight.
I think that's exactly it.
I think that's
what you're teaching me in terms of food along with my other work I'm kind of doing on myself in terms of understanding my own body and trying to listen to my body a little bit more is just like a quick pause
And the quick asking myself, like, what do I need right now?
And sometimes, like for me, midday, that is a chocolate-covered almond.
Like I need that mid-afternoon little chocolate snack.
And then sometimes it's like, you know what?
No, I I could really go for some vegetables and some chicken or something like that.
So it's for me what I'm learning from you is like there is a bit of a pause.
a little bit of a question and then honoring whatever that is that you actually feel like you need instead of what I used to do would be tell myself
No, Jess, like you can't have a chocolate covered almond, like that's not good for you.
If you eat too many, you're gonna gain weight.
So then I wouldn't eat it until all of a sudden I'm like
I have to have a chocolate covered almond, then I'd have a whole bag full.
Now I'm just like, you know what, I can have a small handful and then that's perfect.
So Yeah, I mean for myself.
I don't know if you feel the same way, but when you have a few, like we just had a few here during the podcast, I don't know, I had like eight of them, and I feel fine now.
Now I don't need any more today.
But if I constantly withhold that for myself, I don't know.
Just like what you're saying, I feel like if I withhold that for myself every day, then all of a sudden one day I'm gonna decide, you know what, I want like a big bag of these when I'm at the grocery store
And I'm gonna eat all of them when I get home.
That's exactly what I used to do.
I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no, Jess, like you can't eat that, it's not good for you.
Like, you know, all these diet culture messages.
And then all of a sudden one day I'm at the store and I see a bag of chocolate clever almonds.
I'm like, oh, I have to have it.
I buy it and like eat way too many and then I feel sick and it's like, what am I doing here?
So I think one of the biggest game changing things for me that I've been learning from you and obviously in my own self work and
therapy and all that kind of stuff is yeah, maybe just let yourself have a few and just see how you feel after that and if you allow yourself to kind of have a few or pause before giving into a craving.
it can make a big difference.
And the other thing I've learned from you before we wrap up is that food can be so enjoyable
And like when you eat food that is A nourishing or B just like is different or yummy and like it actually can be such an enjoyable experience to eat and we don't have to just eat to like get through the day.
Like
food itself can be art and a sensory experience and I feel like I learned that from you too.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I mean we both grew up with
let's say under seasoned.
Like just across the family.
Like we're second generation Canadians, both of both of us.
So like our grandparents were all immigrants.
Your aunt is an immigrant as well.
Like a lot of potatoes, but not like
Yeah, not creamy mashed potatoes or anything like that.
Like very simple potatoes.
Boiled potatoes.
Not to say that there's anything wrong with that food, but we didn't grow up with like flavor.
Like what we like now, right?
Like we like to go try all different sorts of foods with a lot of flavor and
boldness and character.
That's the wonderful thing about Canada is there's so many different people from around the world that have decided to live here now that you can find restaurants from pretty much any part of the world.
That's amazing.
And one thing we love to do, and I think I want to end on this note, is like what what messages do we want to pass on to our kids?
So one thing that we do is we actually have like a rotating schedule of meals
And so I think it's like a three-week rotation of meals that we've set up.
And so every night we'll have a different meal, but we've tried to choose meals from all different places around the world for the schedule.
And a lot of them are really simple, easy to make
So like one night we'll do Mediterranean food, one night we'll do food from Like Africa.
Our girls' favorite dishes from Morocco.
And then we try other things from China and
I found three weeks of recipes that we try and they're all relatively simple family meals and we just that's what we try and do and we're gonna
somewhat soon we're gonna change some of them because some of them the girls don't really love.
Yeah, and and what it does is we can then also have a conversation about here's where this food is from and this is what the culture's like there or this is what that country's like and then we can look it up and we can show our kids
pictures.
So it is pretty fun.
We actually will bring up a map and show them today the food is from here.
So it's a way that we like to k teach our kids about different cultures and their food and experiences, which I think is cool.
But how does that relate to body image though, I guess?
I think it relates to food, what would we been talking about being more than just you have to eat your food.
Right.
It's a whole experience.
And I I hope our kids will remember the experience, the togetherness, if you will, of eating with us.
We eat our family meals together and the conversations that we have during those meals.
and the intention that we put behind it, I think will hopefully help give them a healthy relationship with food.
What message, kind of given all we've talked about about your life and your childhood up to now
What message or messages do you hope to pass on to the girls about food and body image?
Honestly, I think the biggest thing based on everything we've just talked about.
is trying to get them to already from a young age, just helping them continue to have that intuition and
into like I'm hungry, I need some food, and I feel like I need this kind of food.
I mean they're kids, so obviously they're going to be likely to ask, can I have ice cream cake for dinner
But I think like the way we talk to our oldest one now, we're talking about how food like it has nutrition.
It helps our brain function, it helps our bodies function, it keeps us working well.
And certain foods help
more with that and certain foods help less with that.
So you need to be able to balance all the different types of foods, both let's say an ice cream cake and a plate of vegetables
You need to be able to balance those things so that you have the proper nutrition to be able to do your schoolwork and be able to play and be able to sleep well at night.
It all plays into that.
And so I think
helping them be a little bit more intuitive and guiding them along that path without saying like ice cream is terrible for you.
Yeah.
I feel like we never we never put a bad label on food.
No.
Like ice cream cake is great.
It serves an amazing purpose of being absolutely delicious.
It's not really a cake, but helping you celebrate
Well that's controversial.
And so helping you celebrate the most controversial part of this episode, I think.
Yeah.
Helping you celebrate a birthday.
Like there's a lot of beautifulness to an ice cream cake, and you can't only eat ice cream cake
Right.
So I think we try and give that message.
One thing I try and do for the kids is really give them the time to tune in with their body.
So there's been times when they're asking for more because something is delicious and they'll be like, okay
Well, why don't we just take a few minutes?
Let's let what we've already had digest, and then I want you to come back in a couple minutes and just tune in with your body and see if you're still hungry.
And it sounds like they are not gonna know what that means
But I find most times if I give them a little bit of time to tune in with their body, they might come back and say, yep, I'm still hungry.
And then I'll just give them a little bit more because I want them to learn to trust their body.
Or they might come back and be like, no, you're right, Mom, I'm actually full.
They just need 30 seconds to realize I'm full.
Yeah.
She was saying, I'm so hungry, I'm so hungry and then had a whole bunch of food and then she paused on her own.
Yep.
And then a few minutes later said, Okay, I'm full now and then went decided to go play.
Yeah
Well thank you Scott for being so open.
I feel like this was a really interesting episode.
It's it's fun to unpack you and and I feel like there's a lot more we could have probably talked about.
We c yeah, I mean food and body image, this could have been a seven hour podcast.
But we didn't even give get into the fact that we have three young daughters and yeah, body image is going to be an aspect of their life that like something I can't relate to.
Something you can maybe more relate to.
Maybe today's society is better for that, but Yeah.
You know what?
We'll have to come back to that next time.
Hopefully if you're listening to this, maybe you can
give us some good feedback on this episode and let us know what you'd want to hear about talking to our daughters about body image and food.
Hearing your questions really helps us know what to talk about on this podcast
Also, I'm just imagining all the requests Scott that I'm gonna get for link to your meal plan.
Uh yeah.
I'm waiting for that.
All right, thank you everyone and we'll talk to you again soon.
Thanks.
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