WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.270 Brett Spencer: I always say to my teams in both broadcast and 00:00:03.270 --> 00:00:06.660 podcasting, and the students here at the university, that actually making 00:00:06.660 --> 00:00:08.550 the program is only 50% of the job. 00:00:08.700 --> 00:00:12.390 If you are a podcaster, you're probably doing three jobs on that podcast. 00:00:12.510 --> 00:00:15.330 If you're not doing three jobs, you're probably doing all the jobs. 00:00:15.450 --> 00:00:18.390 It's about, you know, kiting up somebody to be able to do 00:00:18.390 --> 00:00:19.800 all of those different jobs. 00:00:21.945 --> 00:00:25.095 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies podcast for higher education 00:00:25.095 --> 00:00:27.224 podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:27.345 --> 00:00:30.615 I'm Neil McPhedran, founder of Podium Podcast Company. 00:00:30.825 --> 00:00:33.254 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, founder of JPod Creations. 00:00:33.254 --> 00:00:34.905 Podcasting is broadcasting. 00:00:34.905 --> 00:00:36.315 We want you to know you're not alone. 00:00:36.315 --> 00:00:38.805 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there, 00:00:38.925 --> 00:00:40.275 and we all learn from each other. 00:00:40.515 --> 00:00:46.570 Neil McPhedran: And we are just coming out of our amazing weekend at PodCon 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:53.720 where we met and we're inspired by all kinds of other higher ed podcasters. 00:00:54.440 --> 00:01:01.510 Jen, today we are chatting with Brett Spencer and he is at the City 00:01:01.510 --> 00:01:07.200 St. George's University of London, where they have a really exciting 00:01:07.259 --> 00:01:10.740 master's program teaching podcasting. 00:01:10.800 --> 00:01:13.470 Brett also has a background coming out of the BBC. 00:01:13.470 --> 00:01:17.250 He actually still does a few things at the BBC, which he 00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:19.399 mentions and explains that to us. 00:01:19.529 --> 00:01:23.686 But over and above all that, he's also at Spirit Land Productions, 00:01:23.686 --> 00:01:25.846 which is a podcast production company. 00:01:25.846 --> 00:01:28.846 And they also have a studio, it sounds like incredible. 00:01:28.846 --> 00:01:31.546 I'd like to check it out, that incredible studio for producing 00:01:31.546 --> 00:01:34.036 podcasts in London as well too. 00:01:34.036 --> 00:01:36.826 So lots to, lots to unpack there with Brett. 00:01:37.336 --> 00:01:38.926 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, it's a really well known studio too. 00:01:38.926 --> 00:01:41.236 A lot of people like fly to film there. 00:01:41.296 --> 00:01:42.616 I think that's pretty awesome. 00:01:42.646 --> 00:01:45.736 And the fact that they're doing really neat things and he gets into it. 00:01:45.736 --> 00:01:51.151 Like they do live podcasts, streaming live into theaters, which is, and 00:01:51.151 --> 00:01:56.761 again, Neil, and anytime I think that we interview these people for our Continued 00:01:56.761 --> 00:01:58.381 Studies podcast that like, that's it. 00:01:58.381 --> 00:02:02.611 There's no more other types of jobs and podcasting or other ways to podcast. 00:02:02.611 --> 00:02:04.981 And then also like, come on, they're like, oh, we're streaming 00:02:04.981 --> 00:02:07.051 a podcast live to theaters. 00:02:07.051 --> 00:02:08.071 You're like, oh, okay. 00:02:08.071 --> 00:02:10.231 Well that's another business venture. 00:02:10.261 --> 00:02:13.742 Podcasting is growing and I'm really excited to, uh, chat with Brett. 00:02:14.326 --> 00:02:18.766 Neil McPhedran: And just really get into this incredible program that 00:02:18.856 --> 00:02:24.436 the City St. George's University of London has developed and the amazing 00:02:24.436 --> 00:02:28.546 students that are coming out of the program and getting into podcasting 00:02:28.546 --> 00:02:30.406 in all different shapes and sizes. 00:02:30.496 --> 00:02:32.941 Jennifer-Lee: It's the only one, but I'm sure there will be more to come 00:02:33.221 --> 00:02:36.736 because it really is, and we talk about this a lot, there is no really 00:02:36.736 --> 00:02:38.686 formal education for podcasting. 00:02:38.976 --> 00:02:42.066 But as it becomes more of an industry, we're gonna see that. 00:02:42.246 --> 00:02:43.356 So Brett's part of that. 00:02:43.446 --> 00:02:44.586 So let's get into it. 00:02:44.886 --> 00:02:45.516 Neil McPhedran: Let's do it. 00:02:46.776 --> 00:02:47.556 Hello Brett. 00:02:47.616 --> 00:02:48.876 Thanks for joining us today. 00:02:49.296 --> 00:02:50.226 Brett Spencer: Thank you for having me. 00:02:50.226 --> 00:02:51.756 Long time listener to first time caller. 00:02:51.846 --> 00:02:55.086 Neil McPhedran: There's a bit of a story, you and Jen met at the 00:02:55.116 --> 00:02:57.156 London Podcast show recently. 00:02:57.306 --> 00:02:58.476 Brett Spencer: I'll let Jen tell that story. 00:02:58.626 --> 00:02:59.046 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:02:59.286 --> 00:03:03.126 Well, I'm a little embarrassed because like I know that people listen to us, but 00:03:03.156 --> 00:03:04.926 you don't realize who's listening to you. 00:03:04.926 --> 00:03:07.356 And when you go to London, you don't expect that. 00:03:08.101 --> 00:03:11.101 I realized I was at a podcast show, so I'm kind of setting myself up here. 00:03:11.101 --> 00:03:16.231 But I went over to Brett because they had a booth for the London University 00:03:16.261 --> 00:03:20.401 and I chatted with him and I said, we would love you to be on our podcast. 00:03:20.401 --> 00:03:21.691 And he is like, I listen to your podcast. 00:03:21.691 --> 00:03:22.831 And I was like, no, you don't. 00:03:23.041 --> 00:03:27.181 And so he actually had to like bring his phone up and like show me the apps. 00:03:27.241 --> 00:03:28.891 And actually he does listen to us. 00:03:28.891 --> 00:03:31.891 So that goes to show to everybody listening, you just 00:03:31.891 --> 00:03:32.971 don't know who's listening. 00:03:33.236 --> 00:03:35.066 Brett Spencer: I really enjoy the podcast 'cause it's interesting to 00:03:35.066 --> 00:03:37.826 hear from lots of other people who are working in this sort of space 00:03:37.826 --> 00:03:39.206 in different parts of the world. 00:03:39.206 --> 00:03:41.786 And particularly was struck by the gentleman you head on from Syracuse, 00:03:41.786 --> 00:03:43.376 whose name I don't remember. 00:03:43.376 --> 00:03:46.256 But you know, there's a lot of learnings that you can take from other people when 00:03:46.256 --> 00:03:47.426 they're talking about what they're doing. 00:03:47.486 --> 00:03:48.686 So it's a really good podcast. 00:03:48.686 --> 00:03:49.616 Congratulations on it. 00:03:50.096 --> 00:03:50.306 Jennifer-Lee: Thank you. 00:03:50.306 --> 00:03:52.376 Neil McPhedran: So Brett, I don't think we've actually had too many 00:03:52.376 --> 00:03:54.956 people on the teach podcasting. 00:03:54.956 --> 00:03:56.306 We had Carl on, uh, 00:03:56.366 --> 00:03:57.776 Jennifer-Lee: He knows Carl Hartley too, by the way. 00:03:57.866 --> 00:04:00.386 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, well I think obviously you guys are connected, 00:04:00.416 --> 00:04:08.301 but really we talk more to people using podcasts or our podcasters. 00:04:08.391 --> 00:04:13.401 So this is great because I feel like starting to come across teaching of 00:04:13.401 --> 00:04:19.216 podcasting at the university level, you are at the University of London. 00:04:19.306 --> 00:04:24.076 You're a senior lecturer in podcasting and it's actually a 00:04:24.076 --> 00:04:26.176 master's if, if I have this right. 00:04:26.176 --> 00:04:30.706 It's a master's degree that is being offered at the University of London. 00:04:30.766 --> 00:04:31.336 Brett Spencer: That's correct. 00:04:31.336 --> 00:04:34.546 It's City University, which is part of the University of London, and it's 00:04:34.576 --> 00:04:36.016 offered by the school of journalism. 00:04:36.076 --> 00:04:39.196 We've just completed the second year and we're about to go into 00:04:39.196 --> 00:04:40.546 a third year of the course. 00:04:40.636 --> 00:04:45.061 And it was really about trying to fill a gap in the industry over here because. 00:04:45.061 --> 00:04:49.141 You know, I've been in podcasting since 2005, 20 years now, and one 00:04:49.141 --> 00:04:51.721 of the things that's happened in that time, there's a lot of people 00:04:51.721 --> 00:04:55.411 coming into podcasting that don't necessarily have an audio background. 00:04:55.591 --> 00:04:58.831 I set up a panel from the industry, about a dozen people who I gathered 00:04:58.831 --> 00:05:02.731 here at City, who sort of fed into what they thought the podcasting industry 00:05:02.731 --> 00:05:06.811 needed, because it was quite easy to find someone who knew how to make a program. 00:05:07.156 --> 00:05:10.186 But it was everything else that people didn't necessarily know how to do. 00:05:10.186 --> 00:05:15.196 And I always say to, to my teams in, in both broadcast and podcasting, 00:05:15.196 --> 00:05:17.956 and the students here at the university, that actually making 00:05:17.956 --> 00:05:19.846 the program is only 50% of the job. 00:05:19.876 --> 00:05:23.716 If you are a podcaster, you're probably doing three jobs on that podcast. 00:05:23.791 --> 00:05:26.641 If you're not doing three jobs, you're probably doing all the jobs. 00:05:26.731 --> 00:05:29.791 It's about, you know, kiting up somebody to be able to do 00:05:29.791 --> 00:05:31.231 all of those different jobs. 00:05:31.351 --> 00:05:34.591 And the podcasting industry has a lot of people coming into it from social 00:05:34.591 --> 00:05:37.891 media roles that don't necessarily have an audio background or from 00:05:37.891 --> 00:05:41.701 content creator roles and YouTube, making TikToks, et cetera, don't 00:05:41.701 --> 00:05:43.081 necessarily have an audio background. 00:05:43.261 --> 00:05:46.741 We heard from the podcast companies here, it was difficult to recruit 00:05:46.741 --> 00:05:50.906 people who were all round podcasters who understood both how to make 00:05:50.906 --> 00:05:52.826 a program and the business. 00:05:53.156 --> 00:05:56.576 Understood what they could do in terms of law and everything else. 00:05:56.576 --> 00:05:59.696 So we designed the course around the needs of the industry. 00:05:59.726 --> 00:06:03.026 The idea being that we hope the industry sees this as an 00:06:03.026 --> 00:06:07.196 incubator for new podcasting talent for them to hire later on. 00:06:07.676 --> 00:06:10.466 Jennifer-Lee: That's really interesting because I come from a broadcasting 00:06:10.466 --> 00:06:11.456 background like you, Brett. 00:06:11.456 --> 00:06:15.316 And I went to broadcasting school, and it's changing so much. 00:06:15.406 --> 00:06:17.656 And I go back to see the professors. 00:06:17.686 --> 00:06:20.656 They say they're not sure where they're going with the program 00:06:20.716 --> 00:06:23.716 because a lot of people aren't even going into traditional radio. 00:06:23.716 --> 00:06:27.526 They do have a podcasting element, but it's not fully fledged out 00:06:27.526 --> 00:06:28.786 like the one that you're doing. 00:06:28.786 --> 00:06:29.866 And I think that's so important. 00:06:29.866 --> 00:06:34.111 It's great that people come from all backgrounds digital, like Neil is from 00:06:34.111 --> 00:06:36.211 public relations and digital marketing. 00:06:36.361 --> 00:06:40.381 But I really think that root of broadcasting really helps you. 00:06:40.381 --> 00:06:42.001 So it's great that you guys are doing that. 00:06:42.001 --> 00:06:44.041 Because we're kind of in a weird transition. 00:06:44.041 --> 00:06:45.841 Anyone can do a podcast, which is great. 00:06:46.141 --> 00:06:49.876 But there isn't really any formal training unless they go to courses like yours. 00:06:50.086 --> 00:06:52.816 Brett Spencer: Yeah, and you know, I'm not an academic, I'm not traditional academic. 00:06:52.816 --> 00:06:56.746 This is the first time I've been in in this world, but I think getting industry 00:06:56.746 --> 00:06:59.956 people like myself, all the other people that come into the university to teach 00:06:59.956 --> 00:07:03.106 the students from around the industry, is really valuable because they're 00:07:03.106 --> 00:07:04.876 learning sort of real world skills. 00:07:04.906 --> 00:07:07.996 We had 17 students this year, plus two part-time students. 00:07:08.116 --> 00:07:10.816 They all had placements with podcast production companies. 00:07:11.051 --> 00:07:14.651 A lot of them will get hired by those companies after their course finishes. 00:07:14.711 --> 00:07:18.521 So it therefore really does act as a direct route into the industry and 00:07:18.521 --> 00:07:22.031 you're beginning to see lots of people who are coming off the course, you know, 00:07:22.031 --> 00:07:24.821 making great progress and all these various different podcast companies. 00:07:24.821 --> 00:07:26.741 So we are, we are achieving what we set out to do. 00:07:26.861 --> 00:07:29.711 Jennifer-Lee: And I love that you are still working in the industry as well, 00:07:29.711 --> 00:07:34.631 which sometimes does it happen in any area that you go into universities or college. 00:07:34.631 --> 00:07:37.306 Like some of the teachers are just teachers, but I love that 00:07:37.306 --> 00:07:38.746 you are working with Spirit Land. 00:07:38.746 --> 00:07:40.156 Can you tell us a little bit about that? 00:07:40.216 --> 00:07:41.596 Brett Spencer: Yeah, so I work with a company called Spirit 00:07:41.596 --> 00:07:42.976 Land and we do lots of things. 00:07:42.976 --> 00:07:44.716 We make our own original podcasts. 00:07:44.896 --> 00:07:49.006 We also have a podcast studio, which houses podcasts for other companies 00:07:49.186 --> 00:07:50.686 who want to make our podcast with us. 00:07:50.746 --> 00:07:52.996 And we also have an outside broadcast vehicles to do lots 00:07:52.996 --> 00:07:54.796 of big outside broadcast events. 00:07:54.946 --> 00:07:59.616 And last year we did the first podcast to cinemas, so we did a podcast called 00:07:59.616 --> 00:08:03.516 Help I Sexted My Boss, which was doing a live show at the London Palladium and 00:08:03.516 --> 00:08:08.386 we broadcasted to 408 cinema screens around Europe and sold 25,000 tickets. 00:08:08.416 --> 00:08:12.156 It's a whole new world for podcasting to be in, live broadcasting to 00:08:12.156 --> 00:08:14.946 cinemas, and we're looking to do some more of those going forward. 00:08:14.991 --> 00:08:18.711 So I work Spirit Land one day a week, we're all ex-BBC, and I also 00:08:18.711 --> 00:08:20.091 work for the BBC two days a week. 00:08:20.091 --> 00:08:24.721 So I run two local radio stations for the BBC as part of a job share, BBC3 00:08:24.741 --> 00:08:27.111 counties Radio and BBC Northampton. 00:08:27.171 --> 00:08:31.461 So I have too many jobs, but you know, that portfolio career is quite useful 00:08:31.461 --> 00:08:34.521 for the university because it means I'm spending, you know, more of my 00:08:34.521 --> 00:08:38.391 time in that world working with lots of production companies and then can bring 00:08:38.391 --> 00:08:39.921 that back into the university with me. 00:08:39.971 --> 00:08:40.841 Neil McPhedran: I think that's great. 00:08:40.841 --> 00:08:44.891 I mean, I think that speaks to, just even in that, what you just 00:08:44.891 --> 00:08:48.581 shared with us there, there's so many different angles to podcasting. 00:08:48.731 --> 00:08:53.111 There's the journalistic side of it, there's the entertainment side of it. 00:08:53.111 --> 00:08:55.271 You've got true crime, so on and so forth. 00:08:55.271 --> 00:08:59.516 So I just think it's an interesting genre with so many different areas of focus. 00:08:59.856 --> 00:09:01.811 Brett Spencer: One of the things that, that we talked to students 00:09:01.811 --> 00:09:05.041 about quite earlier, the different roles in podcasting, because it's 00:09:05.041 --> 00:09:06.421 not just about making the thing. 00:09:06.421 --> 00:09:10.201 So actually, you know, we teach them lots of practical skills, like how to 00:09:10.261 --> 00:09:15.091 respond to a brief from a client, how to write a pitch document, how to pitch 00:09:15.091 --> 00:09:19.171 in the room, how to sell a, a podcast in the room, how to write a host read. 00:09:19.496 --> 00:09:21.416 That's not something that comes naturally to people. 00:09:21.476 --> 00:09:25.076 How to work with advertisers, how to work with platforms, all of those 00:09:25.076 --> 00:09:28.706 things which are part of podcasting, but there isn't necessarily anywhere 00:09:28.706 --> 00:09:30.416 to learn all of those things. 00:09:30.596 --> 00:09:33.626 You know, great artwork is obviously really important as we know. 00:09:33.716 --> 00:09:37.401 SEO, how to launch a podcast, what your social media plan should be. 00:09:37.996 --> 00:09:41.086 All of those things are integrated as part of the course. 00:09:41.176 --> 00:09:44.296 So students will leave with not just the ability to make something, 00:09:44.296 --> 00:09:46.876 but all of those skills that are needed in the marketplace. 00:09:46.966 --> 00:09:50.086 And actually what I hope will happen is that some of our students will get really 00:09:50.086 --> 00:09:53.386 good jobs in the industry that are not involved in actually making the thing. 00:09:53.386 --> 00:09:56.386 They might want to be involved in other specialist areas where 00:09:56.386 --> 00:09:58.066 there is a real need for people. 00:09:58.096 --> 00:10:00.196 Jennifer-Lee: Well, I love that because there's so many different 00:10:00.196 --> 00:10:03.826 areas, like traditional broadcasting, everyone thinks of being on air. 00:10:04.146 --> 00:10:06.786 And they don't realize that there is actually so many 00:10:06.786 --> 00:10:08.946 other types of jobs out there. 00:10:08.976 --> 00:10:11.916 Like you could do documentaries and that's something that people don't 00:10:11.916 --> 00:10:13.746 think about doing in podcasting as well. 00:10:13.806 --> 00:10:17.946 Or like you said, producing or selling, or like I was talking to someone yesterday 00:10:17.946 --> 00:10:22.326 that just does podcast media sales like you would for traditional radio. 00:10:22.326 --> 00:10:25.026 So there's a world beyond this and like Neil, you come 00:10:25.026 --> 00:10:26.646 from like a PR and background. 00:10:26.886 --> 00:10:30.066 A lot of this stuff you were doing back in the day, but now it's like 00:10:30.186 --> 00:10:31.596 you're just doing it with a podcast. 00:10:31.656 --> 00:10:34.596 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I mean, my background in digital, I've been 00:10:34.596 --> 00:10:39.396 focused on the digital marketing space for my career, so that's why it was a 00:10:39.396 --> 00:10:42.079 natural progression into podcasting. 00:10:42.269 --> 00:10:46.388 I was with some former colleagues of mine and they were like, podcasting. 00:10:46.388 --> 00:10:47.318 How did you get into that? 00:10:47.318 --> 00:10:50.558 I feel like it's a combination of everything I've done in my career 00:10:50.558 --> 00:10:55.328 from developing digital content to a lot of the stuff you just said, 00:10:55.328 --> 00:11:00.498 Brett, like the SEO and pitching and obviously the advertising side of it. 00:11:00.498 --> 00:11:03.468 I've just been doing that for years, but there's so much of it there. 00:11:03.888 --> 00:11:07.428 The part that I've had to learn is the broadcasting part. 00:11:07.488 --> 00:11:10.308 That is, you know, that I've had to learn as I've come into this. 00:11:10.308 --> 00:11:12.648 A lot of that other stuff, I kind of came with it. 00:11:12.678 --> 00:11:15.828 I am interested though, Brett, I mean it's the school of journalism 00:11:15.888 --> 00:11:20.088 that the program is coming out of, so is there still sort of a strong 00:11:20.088 --> 00:11:22.398 journalistic component to it as well too? 00:11:22.458 --> 00:11:24.798 Brett Spencer: There is a journalistic component, but we also have a comedy 00:11:24.798 --> 00:11:27.528 masterclass and all the students can take specialism, so they can 00:11:27.528 --> 00:11:31.248 take a specialism in sports or in finance or in investigations, so 00:11:31.248 --> 00:11:34.038 there's a chance for them to spread their wings and do different things. 00:11:34.038 --> 00:11:37.388 Obviously, a lot of them will end up working in entertainment or in comedy 00:11:37.418 --> 00:11:39.028 or within those wide variety of spaces. 00:11:39.048 --> 00:11:40.938 It's the number one journalism school in the UK. 00:11:40.938 --> 00:11:42.078 I think I'm allowed to say that. 00:11:42.138 --> 00:11:44.628 It's great to have podcasting as part of that makeup. 00:11:44.748 --> 00:11:45.798 Also, there's great facilities. 00:11:45.798 --> 00:11:47.748 I'm speaking to you now in one of our radio studios. 00:11:47.958 --> 00:11:50.088 We've got three bespoke podcasting studios. 00:11:50.088 --> 00:11:52.308 We're building visualized studios over the summer. 00:11:52.368 --> 00:11:54.018 The resources here are fantastic. 00:11:54.108 --> 00:11:55.578 Jennifer-Lee: I know when you got on Brett, I was like, 00:11:55.578 --> 00:11:57.258 is he at the BBC right now? 00:11:57.258 --> 00:12:02.868 Because your studio looks so professional and I would Kill as a broadcasting student 00:12:02.868 --> 00:12:04.488 to be in there because that looks great. 00:12:04.513 --> 00:12:06.343 I want Neil to come to Lena next time too. 00:12:06.403 --> 00:12:08.263 He had FOMO from not coming this time. 00:12:09.163 --> 00:12:11.713 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I'm definitely coming next time around for sure. 00:12:11.713 --> 00:12:14.323 Brett Spencer: The podcast show is a fine example of just how the industry 00:12:14.323 --> 00:12:15.913 has grown over the last few years. 00:12:15.913 --> 00:12:17.593 I started back in 2005. 00:12:17.893 --> 00:12:20.173 You couldn't imagine something like the podcast show back then. 00:12:20.443 --> 00:12:23.323 You look at the thousands of people that are coming through the doors, but whether 00:12:23.323 --> 00:12:27.158 they're content creators or advertisers or production companies or platforms, 00:12:27.378 --> 00:12:32.908 now to have a show of that size and scale dedicated to podcasts just shows how far 00:12:32.908 --> 00:12:34.768 the industry is coming in that 20 years. 00:12:35.008 --> 00:12:36.538 Jennifer-Lee: I think that's really interesting that you say that, 00:12:36.538 --> 00:12:39.838 Brett, because I find that like, I'm glad I have Neil and a few other 00:12:39.838 --> 00:12:44.053 people because sometimes it feels like the industry is non-existent. 00:12:44.053 --> 00:12:44.443 Yes. 00:12:44.473 --> 00:12:48.283 We have a lot of clients in Canada, but like when we go to the US 00:12:48.283 --> 00:12:52.453 conferences or the UK conferences, people don't realize how massive the 00:12:52.453 --> 00:12:54.293 industry is and that it's growing. 00:12:54.613 --> 00:12:57.073 Like I get excited when I go to those things. 00:12:57.133 --> 00:12:57.493 Brett Spencer: Absolutely. 00:12:58.363 --> 00:13:00.703 Neil McPhedran: I mean, especially in the last couple of years, I've just 00:13:00.703 --> 00:13:04.413 seen a tremendous, I mean, you've seen 20 years of growth, Brett. 00:13:04.413 --> 00:13:08.253 I think though that in the last couple of years we've seen like an accelerated 00:13:08.763 --> 00:13:12.123 period of growth, especially in our little corner in higher education, 00:13:12.153 --> 00:13:16.623 that it just feels like more and more it's becoming such an important 00:13:17.263 --> 00:13:20.353 part of university communication. 00:13:20.353 --> 00:13:23.713 Whether it be at the institutional level or whether it be the 00:13:23.713 --> 00:13:25.213 individual professor level. 00:13:25.633 --> 00:13:28.753 It's such a great medium for higher education. 00:13:28.753 --> 00:13:33.853 So not only to teach it and move on, but also to use it as such an important 00:13:33.853 --> 00:13:35.713 channel in the mix of what they're doing. 00:13:36.268 --> 00:13:36.838 Brett Spencer: Yes, I agree. 00:13:36.928 --> 00:13:39.568 But you still got a lot of people saying, so podcasting started to go mainstream. 00:13:39.568 --> 00:13:44.158 No, it's been mainstream for a long time, but there were still 50% of people in 00:13:44.158 --> 00:13:45.838 the UK listen to a podcast every week. 00:13:45.838 --> 00:13:47.428 That's still half people that don't. 00:13:47.698 --> 00:13:50.818 So there's still an enormous amount of room for growth. 00:13:51.088 --> 00:13:53.798 People, you know, occasionally say to me, well, so podcasting's 00:13:53.868 --> 00:13:55.258 got bigger reach than radio now? 00:13:55.258 --> 00:13:58.348 Well it hasn't, you know, radio's still much bigger and it's 00:13:58.348 --> 00:13:59.518 got much more live listening. 00:13:59.548 --> 00:14:02.638 I run two radio stations at the same time, so I see the other side of that. 00:14:02.818 --> 00:14:06.418 So podcasting, you know, while it's grown hugely, still got a huge growth 00:14:06.418 --> 00:14:09.718 period to go through, if that makes sense, to reach the, you know, the 00:14:09.718 --> 00:14:11.488 mass that radio already reaches. 00:14:11.548 --> 00:14:15.498 And it's interesting that the people that are coming in are clearly much younger. 00:14:15.528 --> 00:14:17.938 So younger audience's coming into podcasting in the way that 00:14:17.938 --> 00:14:19.618 they're not coming into radio. 00:14:20.148 --> 00:14:25.258 So those radio audiences that are between 18 and 24 now, when they're 00:14:25.713 --> 00:14:29.943 24, 30, that's gonna lower the, the average age for people listening 00:14:29.943 --> 00:14:31.263 at that age, if that makes sense. 00:14:31.263 --> 00:14:36.033 So we will start to see the impact of podcasting on radio audiences as time 00:14:36.033 --> 00:14:39.003 goes on, because one will be going up and the other one will be coming 00:14:39.003 --> 00:14:40.383 down at the bottom end of the scale. 00:14:41.253 --> 00:14:43.113 Jennifer-Lee: Well, it's still just so young. 00:14:43.113 --> 00:14:46.418 When we go to the conferences, they're like podcast is still in its first inning. 00:14:46.418 --> 00:14:50.308 It just, everyone feels like it's a lot bigger than it is because they're hearing 00:14:50.308 --> 00:14:52.468 the buzz word podcast all the time. 00:14:52.768 --> 00:14:55.858 They're not realizing and like looking at like actually how 00:14:55.858 --> 00:14:57.568 many live shows are out there. 00:14:57.778 --> 00:15:00.748 They're just like, oh, I have a lot of people who are like, podcast is over. 00:15:01.048 --> 00:15:02.278 It, it's too big now. 00:15:02.278 --> 00:15:03.238 And I'm like, no, it's actually not. 00:15:04.393 --> 00:15:04.663 Brett Spencer: No. 00:15:04.663 --> 00:15:07.273 It's like people say sometimes, are there too many podcasts? 00:15:07.273 --> 00:15:08.953 Well, are there too many TV shows? 00:15:09.013 --> 00:15:10.513 You know, are there too many radio programs? 00:15:10.513 --> 00:15:11.533 Are there too many books? 00:15:11.863 --> 00:15:13.963 So, so no, there are not too many podcasts. 00:15:14.023 --> 00:15:16.513 There's the thing about, well, podcasting really started with Serial. 00:15:16.573 --> 00:15:16.933 No. 00:15:16.933 --> 00:15:20.503 Some of us were ask it for a long time before Serial came along. 00:15:21.133 --> 00:15:21.193 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:15:21.193 --> 00:15:24.133 I'm curious because it is a journalism program, and I know we talked to 00:15:24.133 --> 00:15:25.573 Carl Hartley a little bit about this. 00:15:25.903 --> 00:15:29.328 When you go to broadcasting school, they talk to you about being liable 00:15:29.328 --> 00:15:30.918 for like what you're putting out there. 00:15:31.398 --> 00:15:34.518 Obviously a podcast, it's a little bit different because it's not quite 00:15:34.548 --> 00:15:36.198 governed the way that radio is. 00:15:36.198 --> 00:15:40.818 So when you're teaching a journalistic integrity, are you guys still teaching 00:15:40.818 --> 00:15:42.348 be careful what you're reporting on? 00:15:42.348 --> 00:15:45.768 Because that's the other thing that podcasting gets a bad rap that anyone can 00:15:45.768 --> 00:15:47.418 go out and say whatever they wanna say. 00:15:47.728 --> 00:15:50.848 Brett Spencer: So every single one of our students has to do a media law module. 00:15:50.878 --> 00:15:51.778 That's compulsory. 00:15:51.778 --> 00:15:54.208 And they have to take a law exam as well. 00:15:54.418 --> 00:15:56.488 The answer to your question is, is yes. 00:15:56.878 --> 00:16:00.238 And we also make sure they adhere to, you know what music you can use. 00:16:00.508 --> 00:16:04.168 Everything they produce needs to be something that you would put out 00:16:04.168 --> 00:16:08.488 in the real world without either getting sent to jail or getting sued. 00:16:08.818 --> 00:16:10.918 Everything has to be of a broadcast standard. 00:16:10.918 --> 00:16:12.628 So yes is the answer to your question. 00:16:12.688 --> 00:16:14.848 Jennifer-Lee: That's great because I always, and Neil's working on one right 00:16:14.848 --> 00:16:18.553 now, working on a true crime podcast, but I'm always fascinated in that world 00:16:18.553 --> 00:16:22.513 because some people can go rogue and it works for them, but I'm like, this 00:16:22.513 --> 00:16:25.993 just feels like there's a lot of legal stuff that you have to like deal with 00:16:25.993 --> 00:16:28.333 because it's gonna come back at you. 00:16:28.663 --> 00:16:30.253 Brett Spencer: So I worked at a podcast series last year 00:16:30.253 --> 00:16:31.513 called the Captain Tom Story. 00:16:31.513 --> 00:16:33.193 Do you know, do you know who Captain Tom was? 00:16:33.433 --> 00:16:33.703 Jennifer-Lee: No. 00:16:33.703 --> 00:16:34.363 Tell us. 00:16:34.543 --> 00:16:35.023 Brett Spencer: Okay. 00:16:35.023 --> 00:16:39.163 So Captain Tom was a man who was 99 years old, and for his 00:16:39.163 --> 00:16:41.738 hundredth birthday, he walked laps around his garden during COVID. 00:16:41.808 --> 00:16:44.058 Jennifer-Lee: Oh, I do know during COVID. 00:16:44.128 --> 00:16:46.753 Brett Spencer: And he raised millions and millions for NHS. 00:16:46.753 --> 00:16:50.553 But then it started to look a little murky as to where had some of that money gone. 00:16:51.243 --> 00:16:56.793 And there were various accusations against his family, and you can tell 00:16:56.793 --> 00:16:58.263 that even now I'm treading carefully. 00:16:58.293 --> 00:17:01.593 There was a charity commissioner report that came out just last year. 00:17:02.223 --> 00:17:05.403 Myself and a colleague, Justin Dealey made a podcast series about that. 00:17:05.583 --> 00:17:09.968 And we forensically looked through the accounts over many weeks and looked 00:17:09.968 --> 00:17:11.138 at where all the money had gone. 00:17:11.138 --> 00:17:14.918 And then in the very last episode, some months later, we had the first 00:17:14.918 --> 00:17:18.488 interview with his daughter who had been accused of various things. 00:17:19.208 --> 00:17:21.938 Important for me to say they, you know, they've not been charged 00:17:21.938 --> 00:17:24.728 with any crime and no crime's been created, important me to say that. 00:17:24.728 --> 00:17:25.633 Neil McPhedran: You've taken your own course. 00:17:25.903 --> 00:17:28.658 Brett Spencer: Yeah, but the point I'm making here is that during that 00:17:28.658 --> 00:17:34.393 period I spent more time with the BBC's legal department that I probably 00:17:34.393 --> 00:17:39.133 had in my, the 15 years put together when I was at the BBC as staff. 00:17:39.223 --> 00:17:42.493 So that was a real life case I was able to present to the students that, 00:17:42.493 --> 00:17:46.003 you know, we were, on call was at 11 o'clock at night the night before 00:17:46.003 --> 00:17:49.543 an episode was coming out and still discussing what we might be able to say. 00:17:49.873 --> 00:17:52.843 So having those real world examples that we're doing in real 00:17:52.843 --> 00:17:56.533 time is incredibly useful to be able to present to the students. 00:17:56.923 --> 00:18:00.943 But is an illustration to them that you know, when you are working on 00:18:00.943 --> 00:18:05.293 a podcast, you've gotta be really, really careful about what you're saying 00:18:05.293 --> 00:18:06.373 and what you're putting out there. 00:18:06.808 --> 00:18:11.038 Neil McPhedran: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting example and as Jen 00:18:11.038 --> 00:18:15.208 said, I'm in the beginning of that with a true crime podcast I'm working on here. 00:18:15.208 --> 00:18:18.958 And I think maybe I need to figure out how to work with CBC on this 00:18:18.958 --> 00:18:22.618 end like you worked with BBC on your end to help with a lawyer. 00:18:22.648 --> 00:18:26.068 We are getting advice though, that's for sure 'cause it's a cold murder case. 00:18:26.698 --> 00:18:29.908 Definitely don't want to get ourselves into hot water there. 00:18:29.938 --> 00:18:31.168 Brett Spencer: Well, somebody said to me the other day, they were 00:18:31.168 --> 00:18:33.748 working on something and they said, I'm having a nightmare with legal. 00:18:33.748 --> 00:18:35.548 They're interfering all the time and getting involved. 00:18:35.548 --> 00:18:37.678 And I said, no, the legal department are your friend. 00:18:37.738 --> 00:18:38.188 You know what I mean? 00:18:38.248 --> 00:18:39.868 They're the ones trying to keep you on the straight and 00:18:39.868 --> 00:18:41.098 narrow and keep you outta jail. 00:18:41.098 --> 00:18:43.918 So, you know, make sure stuff is legally correct. 00:18:43.918 --> 00:18:45.178 It's incredibly important. 00:18:45.448 --> 00:18:46.618 Neil McPhedran: I think that's what's really interesting 00:18:46.618 --> 00:18:49.138 about the program there. 00:18:49.198 --> 00:18:54.418 How multi, like when you rattled off a few minutes ago, all the different areas 00:18:54.418 --> 00:18:59.338 of it, I think when you kind of just start thinking about it on the outset. 00:18:59.728 --> 00:19:03.538 You sort of think about the production side and whatnot, but then when 00:19:03.538 --> 00:19:08.908 you start really digging into what podcasting is, there's so much there. 00:19:08.998 --> 00:19:11.368 'Cause it's a digital medium, so everything that comes along 00:19:11.368 --> 00:19:15.208 with digital nowadays, including the SEO kind of component of it. 00:19:15.538 --> 00:19:18.268 But then what we just talked about with the legal side of it. 00:19:18.343 --> 00:19:21.163 I mean, it's such a great program. 00:19:21.193 --> 00:19:23.743 There must be some students that have come out of the program that 00:19:23.743 --> 00:19:27.133 are out in the podcast wild just doing some really interesting things. 00:19:27.138 --> 00:19:30.433 Have you, have you seen that with the first couple of cohorts? 00:19:30.643 --> 00:19:33.223 Brett Spencer: We've got two people working for Goalhanger who are the big 00:19:33.223 --> 00:19:37.153 UK outfit here, and we've got a third one who's just been hired by them, I think. 00:19:37.633 --> 00:19:40.003 And I know that some of the students this year have also been hired by 00:19:40.003 --> 00:19:41.353 the companies they're working for. 00:19:41.353 --> 00:19:46.733 We are seeing them translate into jobs quite quickly because the industry knows 00:19:46.733 --> 00:19:49.373 that if they've been on this course, then they're coming out as a fully 00:19:49.373 --> 00:19:51.473 rounded individual, if that makes sense. 00:19:51.863 --> 00:19:54.593 And those that have work experience with a lot of those companies have seen 00:19:54.593 --> 00:19:56.453 firsthand what they are capable of. 00:19:56.963 --> 00:20:00.683 And those skills, of all the things I talked about as opposed 00:20:00.683 --> 00:20:03.443 to just making the podcast, are the things the industry needs. 00:20:03.743 --> 00:20:07.283 Which is why we had that sort of steering group before we started the degree of, 00:20:07.518 --> 00:20:11.388 what needs to be in this course that are the things you are looking for? 00:20:11.508 --> 00:20:15.438 At that time when we had that steering group, three different companies had 00:20:15.438 --> 00:20:19.068 said to me that had recently gone through an interview process for a podcast 00:20:19.068 --> 00:20:23.148 producer and not hired anyone from that pool of interviewees that they've got. 00:20:23.148 --> 00:20:26.388 So we knew there was a need that we could, that we could fill. 00:20:26.743 --> 00:20:27.163 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:20:27.163 --> 00:20:31.663 I love that there's the real world component to the program where the 00:20:31.663 --> 00:20:35.833 students are getting real world, uh, experience and then for some of them 00:20:35.833 --> 00:20:38.293 that's actually turned into a gig. 00:20:38.353 --> 00:20:44.173 And what a win-win for like a Goalhanger, for example, to, uh, be able to 00:20:44.173 --> 00:20:46.513 see their capabilities firsthand. 00:20:46.693 --> 00:20:49.693 Like, this person knows their stuff and they're great. 00:20:49.693 --> 00:20:50.773 We're gonna hire them now. 00:20:51.323 --> 00:20:54.833 Brett Spencer: And Goalhanger give us a 5,000 pound bursary for a student, 00:20:54.833 --> 00:20:59.093 which we award each year, which students could apply for, because I was quite 00:20:59.093 --> 00:21:02.303 keen that we enabled some students that wouldn't necessarily be able to afford 00:21:02.483 --> 00:21:04.223 to do the course to be able to take it. 00:21:04.703 --> 00:21:07.943 So we have a 5,000 pound bursary from Goalhanger. 00:21:08.033 --> 00:21:12.753 and we have a 25,000 pound scholarship from Spotify, which will cover all 00:21:12.753 --> 00:21:18.298 course fees and accommodation for a student, for Spotify, and those two 00:21:18.298 --> 00:21:19.978 things also come with work experience. 00:21:19.978 --> 00:21:24.508 So the person's on that bursary then gets to go to work experience, so they get 00:21:24.508 --> 00:21:27.178 to go and work at those companies that are sponsoring them at the same time. 00:21:27.718 --> 00:21:28.348 Jennifer-Lee: I love that. 00:21:28.348 --> 00:21:31.618 I was just thinking about it because I went and saw Goalhanger speak at 00:21:31.708 --> 00:21:35.353 the podcast show, and I know that your students are there and so, you know, 00:21:35.413 --> 00:21:38.503 this is exciting for the students because you're sitting there and they're, you're 00:21:38.503 --> 00:21:42.523 seeing all these big emerging companies that you could potentially work for. 00:21:42.703 --> 00:21:46.813 When I was a young broadcaster, I always wanted to work at the BBC, but it's just 00:21:46.813 --> 00:21:49.603 that same exciting thing of like, you're sitting there and you're like, oh, I wanna 00:21:49.603 --> 00:21:56.263 work for BBC or CNN, you know, it's neat to see these real life examples and when 00:21:56.263 --> 00:21:59.443 they're going to these different shows and be like, oh, I could actually work there. 00:21:59.848 --> 00:22:02.458 Brett Spencer: And it's interesting you say that about the BBC and CNN because 00:22:02.458 --> 00:22:06.508 actually a lot of people now will go their entire career without ever working 00:22:06.508 --> 00:22:08.808 for a broadcaster, if that makes sense. 00:22:09.008 --> 00:22:11.008 So, you know, certainly when I came through, I wanted to go 00:22:11.008 --> 00:22:15.178 and work for the BBC or for LBC or commercial radio, whatever. 00:22:15.178 --> 00:22:18.298 But actually for a lot of people now, while they might make things 00:22:18.298 --> 00:22:22.198 for that broadcaster, but they may never actually work for a broadcaster. 00:22:22.498 --> 00:22:25.168 And actually for many people, they may never have a staff job. 00:22:25.193 --> 00:22:28.673 Because so much of the podcast industry is run on freelance staff. 00:22:28.673 --> 00:22:32.153 You can be making two or three different podcasts in two or three different places. 00:22:32.363 --> 00:22:34.133 You don't actually need a staff job anywhere. 00:22:34.133 --> 00:22:37.283 So the way the industry is shaped has become quite different. 00:22:37.793 --> 00:22:43.403 Neil McPhedran: So any of our listeners out there who are considering 00:22:43.463 --> 00:22:50.788 developing a podcasting program at their university, any sort of initial 00:22:50.878 --> 00:22:55.288 advice that you would share about getting things up off the ground? 00:22:55.288 --> 00:22:58.198 Obviously it's a lot of work and there's a lot of components to it, 00:22:58.198 --> 00:23:01.438 but sort of anyone out there who's listening that is thinking about 00:23:01.438 --> 00:23:03.208 this, what would you say to them? 00:23:03.538 --> 00:23:05.728 Brett Spencer: I think the steering group thing was really useful. 00:23:05.728 --> 00:23:07.498 Finding out what the industry needs. 00:23:07.888 --> 00:23:12.088 If you can get advice from people you think you'll be hiring into. 00:23:12.148 --> 00:23:14.818 One of the advantages we've got is we are in London. 00:23:15.193 --> 00:23:18.523 If you work for Acast, you can walk here, Spotify's up the road. 00:23:18.523 --> 00:23:20.353 We are in a prime position. 00:23:20.533 --> 00:23:24.943 If you are setting up a course in a major area with lots of companies in 00:23:24.943 --> 00:23:27.763 it, then that's gonna be different from setting up a course if you are 00:23:28.213 --> 00:23:29.863 perhaps in the middle of America. 00:23:30.253 --> 00:23:34.363 So it's about where are you gonna feed your people into, if that makes sense. 00:23:34.663 --> 00:23:35.653 And what can you deliver? 00:23:35.653 --> 00:23:40.963 We do a great event in the autumn called Podcast Gold, where we get half a dozen of 00:23:40.963 --> 00:23:44.803 the winners of the British Podcast Awards to come in and talk in one evening, and 00:23:44.803 --> 00:23:46.843 they all get to do 15, 20 minutes each. 00:23:47.173 --> 00:23:48.553 Last year we had a hundred students. 00:23:48.553 --> 00:23:51.523 We had a hundred people from the podcast industry, and we can only 00:23:51.523 --> 00:23:54.613 really do that because we are in London, you know, and we can call on those 00:23:54.613 --> 00:23:55.993 people to come in and do that event. 00:23:56.143 --> 00:23:57.643 We've done that three years now. 00:23:57.673 --> 00:23:59.593 We'll do a fourth one this October, hopefully. 00:23:59.983 --> 00:24:03.763 And that's become a sort of industry event that we are able to have in our calendar. 00:24:04.333 --> 00:24:07.153 We're also able to go to lots of podcast events and shows and 00:24:07.153 --> 00:24:08.713 companies, because we are in London. 00:24:08.783 --> 00:24:11.543 If you're doing something in New York and LA and there my friend Steve 00:24:11.543 --> 00:24:15.083 Goldstein does a fantastic course at NYU on the business of podcasting. 00:24:15.083 --> 00:24:16.703 We hung out in London recently. 00:24:17.243 --> 00:24:19.823 That's obviously gonna, you know, the people that he can bring in are 00:24:19.823 --> 00:24:22.973 gonna be different from the people that you can bring in elsewhere. 00:24:23.363 --> 00:24:27.293 Neil McPhedran: I, I really like that lens that you put on it of it's 00:24:27.293 --> 00:24:32.933 not just a program and a course for someone to learn about, but you started 00:24:32.993 --> 00:24:35.513 with where are they gonna go after? 00:24:35.543 --> 00:24:39.353 And it's connecting with the wider community that's gonna potentially 00:24:39.353 --> 00:24:42.593 hire these people, but also gonna be involved with the program. 00:24:42.593 --> 00:24:46.973 And I think that's really important there to not think about this as separate 00:24:47.273 --> 00:24:53.963 academic exercise, but it needs to be closely aligned with the industry. 00:24:54.023 --> 00:24:59.843 And what a great opportunity then to pull in industry as well to sort of connect 00:24:59.843 --> 00:25:03.623 more with them and just even down to the bursary level that you guys have created. 00:25:03.623 --> 00:25:04.463 That's tremendous. 00:25:05.003 --> 00:25:06.863 Brett Spencer: And we've been, the students this year have been making a 00:25:06.863 --> 00:25:08.783 podcast series for the United Nations. 00:25:09.118 --> 00:25:13.618 So we've been making a podcast series for the UNFPA to highlight their work. 00:25:13.618 --> 00:25:18.418 It's a five part series and the students have been working in teams of four to make 00:25:18.418 --> 00:25:21.028 that series, which we recorded recently. 00:25:21.028 --> 00:25:24.388 They've been doing interviews remotely with, with people all over 00:25:24.388 --> 00:25:27.508 the world, and we're currently in the edit stage of that, and we're 00:25:27.508 --> 00:25:29.373 hoping to get that out quite shortly. 00:25:29.853 --> 00:25:33.303 But to be able to do a project like that and you know, to make a podcast series 00:25:33.303 --> 00:25:36.903 for something as high profile as the UN, just our second year, has been fantastic. 00:25:36.963 --> 00:25:39.183 Jennifer-Lee: And how do you end up getting like a partnership 00:25:39.183 --> 00:25:41.463 with the UN that you're allowed to do a project like that? 00:25:41.763 --> 00:25:44.013 Brett Spencer: So I was in New York on holiday. 00:25:44.258 --> 00:25:48.518 And my former BBC colleague, Lalita Taylor, who's quite brilliant, said, 00:25:48.518 --> 00:25:51.398 come meet the UNFPA for breakfast. 00:25:51.398 --> 00:25:53.348 She wanted me to meet this head of innovation at the UN. 00:25:53.378 --> 00:25:55.658 So we made that plan to meet for breakfast, and then my flight 00:25:55.658 --> 00:25:57.068 got canceled, so I missed it. 00:25:57.158 --> 00:26:00.278 I got to New York and I was in arrivals, and the Lalita was 00:26:00.278 --> 00:26:02.028 in departures at the same time. 00:26:02.088 --> 00:26:04.938 So she left and I said, well look, I'll just go and meet them without you. 00:26:05.028 --> 00:26:10.158 So I turn up at the UNFPA very much in holiday mode and I walk into this room and 00:26:10.158 --> 00:26:11.568 I thought I was just gonna have coffee. 00:26:11.568 --> 00:26:14.628 But there's like a whole load of people and there's people in the room and 00:26:14.628 --> 00:26:16.068 there's lots of people on Zoom as well. 00:26:16.068 --> 00:26:17.388 This is like a proper meeting. 00:26:17.448 --> 00:26:21.168 And they'd pitch this idea of doing this podcast project and I sort of had to 00:26:21.168 --> 00:26:24.408 adjust my brain from being on vacation to listening to a podcast project. 00:26:24.408 --> 00:26:27.078 And so, yeah, I went to New York on holiday and accidentally 00:26:27.078 --> 00:26:28.458 came back with a podcast. 00:26:28.518 --> 00:26:32.328 That was last June and now a year later we've made it. 00:26:32.418 --> 00:26:37.158 So that's been very exciting and it was all down to pairing up the two of us, the 00:26:37.158 --> 00:26:40.458 two partners, and that podcast will be out hopefully in the next couple of months. 00:26:40.548 --> 00:26:42.408 Jennifer-Lee: I can't wait to hear and that, that's an important thing 00:26:42.408 --> 00:26:45.558 that I think a lot of people can learn from for podcasting is it, it, is a 00:26:45.558 --> 00:26:49.248 lot about partnerships and finding those relationships, and that's how 00:26:49.248 --> 00:26:53.388 you can have a successful show or find different unique projects to work on. 00:26:53.508 --> 00:26:54.348 Brett Spencer: Yeah, absolutely. 00:26:54.348 --> 00:26:57.683 I think the pitching thing is one of the most important things that we 00:26:57.683 --> 00:26:59.303 teach on the course, how to pitch. 00:26:59.393 --> 00:27:03.413 We have a session very early in the course where we ask the students to play 00:27:03.683 --> 00:27:06.803 some audio tour us that means something to them, if that makes sense, and 00:27:06.803 --> 00:27:08.693 talk about it something in their life. 00:27:08.723 --> 00:27:11.753 And the bit that I always play, which sort of shocks people, 'cause it's 00:27:11.753 --> 00:27:17.303 very sweary, is I play the Alec Baldwin scene from Glengarry Glen Ross, in 00:27:17.303 --> 00:27:19.103 which he says, always be closing. 00:27:19.373 --> 00:27:21.233 And I said, you don't realize why I'm showing you this now, 00:27:21.233 --> 00:27:22.673 but you will later in the year. 00:27:22.673 --> 00:27:25.403 And then at various points later in the year, I will say to them, 00:27:25.403 --> 00:27:26.693 you know, always be closing. 00:27:27.083 --> 00:27:27.803 Neil McPhedran: I like that. 00:27:27.893 --> 00:27:28.643 That's great. 00:27:28.733 --> 00:27:30.923 Brett Spencer: And I can't even remember what they're selling in that film. 00:27:31.373 --> 00:27:33.413 It's all relevant to whatever you're trying to sell. 00:27:33.803 --> 00:27:37.673 And if you're making a podcast or you want to make a podcast, at some point, 00:27:37.883 --> 00:27:41.003 you're gonna have to convince someone to let you do it, whether it's the 00:27:41.003 --> 00:27:44.453 company you're working for, whether it's a broadcaster, whether it's a platform. 00:27:44.783 --> 00:27:47.063 At some point, you're probably gonna have to convince someone to let 00:27:47.063 --> 00:27:50.093 you make something unless you're making it under your own steam. 00:27:50.093 --> 00:27:52.343 So I think that pitching thing is incredibly important. 00:27:52.808 --> 00:27:55.208 Neil McPhedran: Even if it's your own project, you still gotta, there's 00:27:55.208 --> 00:27:58.078 still a point where you gotta pitch it at some point in time, right? 00:27:58.078 --> 00:28:00.728 Whether or not it's just bringing on someone to interview even. 00:28:00.758 --> 00:28:01.298 I like that. 00:28:01.298 --> 00:28:02.438 That's, that's good advice. 00:28:02.438 --> 00:28:03.278 Always be closing. 00:28:03.878 --> 00:28:05.558 Jennifer-Lee: You can do social media, you can do paid 00:28:05.558 --> 00:28:07.568 advertising and all that stuff. 00:28:07.848 --> 00:28:11.778 If you're not building relationships and doing cross-promotion or getting 00:28:11.778 --> 00:28:16.218 on different lists and sending your podcast out to different associations 00:28:16.218 --> 00:28:19.998 to get listeners and building those relationships, it's not gonna go anywhere 00:28:20.058 --> 00:28:23.268 unless you're just lucky that you put out one episode and it takes off. 00:28:23.268 --> 00:28:25.998 But it is a really relationship building business. 00:28:26.033 --> 00:28:27.263 Brett Spencer: A hundred percent. 00:28:27.263 --> 00:28:28.733 It is all about relationships. 00:28:29.183 --> 00:28:32.123 And you said something very important about partnerships there as well. 00:28:32.123 --> 00:28:35.063 You know, partnering up with people, reaching out to people. 00:28:35.483 --> 00:28:38.423 I've worked with lots of people that I might have met on Twitter 00:28:38.423 --> 00:28:40.193 or met at a conference or whatever. 00:28:40.643 --> 00:28:43.763 So one of the most important things you do is have a coffee with somebody 'cause 00:28:43.763 --> 00:28:45.593 you never know what's gonna come from it. 00:28:45.923 --> 00:28:48.893 I always advise people to reach out to people, particularly if 00:28:48.893 --> 00:28:50.213 you like what someone's doing. 00:28:50.573 --> 00:28:51.623 You like their project. 00:28:51.623 --> 00:28:54.263 If you like their podcast, it's always worth reaching out because 00:28:54.263 --> 00:28:55.313 you never know what might come of it. 00:28:55.823 --> 00:28:56.003 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah. 00:28:56.003 --> 00:28:59.213 Or you trek Brett down at his booth in London. 00:28:59.673 --> 00:29:02.723 Because what happened was he wasn't there when I first went there 00:29:02.723 --> 00:29:03.953 and I said, where's this Brett? 00:29:03.953 --> 00:29:06.293 Because Steven Goldstein told me I needed to talk to you. 00:29:06.653 --> 00:29:09.923 And they're like, he went on a coffee break and then I like literally kept like 00:29:09.923 --> 00:29:11.543 circling the booth until you got there. 00:29:11.793 --> 00:29:14.103 Brett Spencer: Steve and I were part of a little interesting panel actually, 00:29:14.493 --> 00:29:19.803 which, uh, we'd done the year before about opportunities for podcasters and 00:29:19.803 --> 00:29:23.733 there are so many now, whether it be, you know, the people on that panel myself, 00:29:23.883 --> 00:29:27.663 Transmission Roundhouse in London, who provide lots of schemes for, for young 00:29:27.663 --> 00:29:32.493 people in London Audio UK who have a lot of opportunities for young podcasters. 00:29:32.823 --> 00:29:37.268 So, you know, creating that inroad, that ramp into the industry for 00:29:37.268 --> 00:29:39.188 people is incredibly important. 00:29:39.548 --> 00:29:42.188 It's not just about what we're doing here on this course. 00:29:42.518 --> 00:29:45.878 It's all about everybody else that's trying to bring on young podcasters 00:29:45.878 --> 00:29:49.898 on board and grow young podcasters, BBC do some fantastic things. 00:29:50.228 --> 00:29:54.418 You probably know about BBC Audio Labs that help first time podcasters get 00:29:54.418 --> 00:29:56.698 their podcast published within the BBC. 00:29:56.788 --> 00:29:59.068 So there's loads and loads of opportunities now for, for 00:29:59.098 --> 00:30:00.538 podcasters that are coming through. 00:30:00.928 --> 00:30:03.758 Jennifer-Lee: I know that EPod is coming up in London. 00:30:03.778 --> 00:30:05.788 Do you have anything to do with that or? 00:30:06.223 --> 00:30:06.613 Brett Spencer: No. 00:30:06.613 --> 00:30:08.473 And then one of my colleagues is going, I'm not going 'cause 00:30:08.473 --> 00:30:09.523 I've got other things to do. 00:30:09.523 --> 00:30:12.013 We're in the thick of marking the final projects and stuff, 00:30:12.013 --> 00:30:13.003 so I'm not going to EPod. 00:30:13.003 --> 00:30:15.163 I think the previously mentioned Carl Hartley is one of the 00:30:15.163 --> 00:30:16.093 people involved in that. 00:30:16.153 --> 00:30:18.493 I have a question for you guys though, 'cause one we 00:30:18.493 --> 00:30:20.623 haven't talked about is video. 00:30:21.073 --> 00:30:26.653 So I just wondered where you stand on the whole, the future is video question. 00:30:26.953 --> 00:30:28.213 Neil McPhedran: That's a great question. 00:30:28.468 --> 00:30:34.273 I, I was, uh, chatting with someone the other day who is, he's on the be beginning 00:30:34.273 --> 00:30:36.523 of his journey of starting a podcast. 00:30:36.523 --> 00:30:40.903 About two minutes into the conversation he said, I've been doing all my research and 00:30:40.903 --> 00:30:42.523 I just keep seeing video, video, video. 00:30:42.523 --> 00:30:43.483 I gotta do video. 00:30:43.543 --> 00:30:46.483 And I said, I don't think you really need to. 00:30:46.483 --> 00:30:49.273 I think there's a lot of positive things about video and I don't think 00:30:49.273 --> 00:30:55.033 it, it's the wrong way to go, but if you're starting out, it is easier to 00:30:55.033 --> 00:31:01.258 get your legs out underneath of you, get things going, with audio only. 00:31:01.288 --> 00:31:06.808 Video just adds such a layer of complication from a cost perspective. 00:31:07.248 --> 00:31:10.288 So much more to deal with from an editing perspective. 00:31:10.648 --> 00:31:15.118 If it's an interview style show, which this guy was talking about, there's 00:31:15.118 --> 00:31:18.478 actually guests out there that aren't comfortable going on video and you 00:31:18.478 --> 00:31:21.508 can have a way better interview just even if, like we're looking at each 00:31:21.508 --> 00:31:23.098 other right now, but this is audio. 00:31:23.578 --> 00:31:27.213 But it complicates everything so I'm quite torn. 00:31:27.273 --> 00:31:32.883 We are deep into video with some of our podcasts we work with and deep 00:31:32.883 --> 00:31:38.403 into YouTube land, and I've got a call actually later today with Spotify. 00:31:38.403 --> 00:31:42.273 We're in the Spotify Partner Program for one of the podcasts that we work 00:31:42.273 --> 00:31:47.523 with, and we're crossroads right now with that one of incorporating video. 00:31:48.238 --> 00:31:50.398 And what that means with Spotify. 00:31:50.398 --> 00:31:51.898 So I'm all into it. 00:31:51.898 --> 00:31:56.818 But at the same time, I think if you're starting out, stick 00:31:56.818 --> 00:31:57.958 with audio to start with. 00:31:58.258 --> 00:32:00.268 Jennifer-Lee: I think you have to be good on the mic. 00:32:00.268 --> 00:32:03.028 I think you need to be able to carry people without 00:32:03.028 --> 00:32:05.668 images to be engaging first. 00:32:05.728 --> 00:32:09.418 I think there is a place for video, celebrity podcast, people 00:32:09.418 --> 00:32:10.918 wanna see who the celebrity is. 00:32:11.293 --> 00:32:15.823 When I was working in radio back in the day, social media was starting 00:32:15.823 --> 00:32:18.373 to come up and people were like, you know what would be great? 00:32:18.613 --> 00:32:19.903 To film yourself in the booth. 00:32:20.083 --> 00:32:21.673 I'm sorry, but that's boring. 00:32:21.673 --> 00:32:26.623 That's me in a booth talking for 30 seconds about Britney 00:32:26.623 --> 00:32:29.083 Spears or whatever pop culture thing that I was talking about. 00:32:30.103 --> 00:32:34.333 I think yes, video, YouTube, you have to be on with your podcast, 00:32:34.333 --> 00:32:36.073 but does it have to be video? 00:32:36.703 --> 00:32:37.153 No. 00:32:37.253 --> 00:32:42.863 Be good first at the podcast element because I will 00:32:42.863 --> 00:32:45.443 listen to you if you're good. 00:32:45.863 --> 00:32:50.723 So have great storytelling first, and to your earlier point, Neil, 00:32:50.723 --> 00:32:54.173 not all guests, too, love them, but they're not all great on video and 00:32:54.173 --> 00:32:57.953 sometimes it scares them and it doesn't give the the most compelling story. 00:32:58.163 --> 00:33:00.113 Neil McPhedran: I think the other thing I would add in there, 00:33:00.323 --> 00:33:07.313 Brett, is the beauty of podcasting is it's a multitasking medium. 00:33:07.913 --> 00:33:14.003 I do my podcast listening while I go for a run in the forest, while I'm 00:33:14.003 --> 00:33:19.463 walking the dog, while I am cooking dinner for kids or something like that. 00:33:19.493 --> 00:33:23.153 And I think research shows, and I think that we could sort of talk to anyone. 00:33:23.333 --> 00:33:27.893 That's typically how we consume podcasts, not looking at them. 00:33:27.953 --> 00:33:31.973 Yes, I know that there's a whole sort of chunk where people are using 00:33:32.183 --> 00:33:36.203 YouTube up on their TV and they've got it running and we're seeing Samsung 00:33:36.233 --> 00:33:39.623 televisions as sort of creeping up into the analytics and stuff like that. 00:33:39.623 --> 00:33:44.078 But I wonder if they're using their TV, which is probably their sound 00:33:44.078 --> 00:33:47.348 system, and then they're doing other stuff while they're consuming it. 00:33:47.348 --> 00:33:48.968 So I think that's the other side of it too. 00:33:48.968 --> 00:33:53.678 I think there's a real tension there around really how people interact with 00:33:53.678 --> 00:33:55.778 the medium, which is multitasking. 00:33:55.928 --> 00:33:57.338 And that's not gonna change. 00:33:57.518 --> 00:34:01.088 I'm not, not while I'm running, like looking at my screen, even though it might 00:34:01.088 --> 00:34:03.038 have a video version of it as well too. 00:34:03.128 --> 00:34:04.203 What do you think about all that, Brett? 00:34:04.463 --> 00:34:05.693 Brett Spencer: Well, there's a lot to unpack. 00:34:05.803 --> 00:34:06.923 Neil McPhedran: Opened up the box. 00:34:06.953 --> 00:34:08.693 Brett Spencer: Yeah, I opened up the box. 00:34:08.873 --> 00:34:12.683 So, I'm guilty of putting the first cameras in a BBC radio studio, which 00:34:12.683 --> 00:34:17.933 was back in 2005 where we visualized the first podcast that I launched, which was 00:34:17.933 --> 00:34:19.943 the Mark Kerr, the Cyber May Film Review. 00:34:19.993 --> 00:34:23.893 And actually I've got an interesting edit, Mark and Simon talking to the 00:34:23.893 --> 00:34:30.553 actor Jason Isaacs from 2005, and it then morphed into them talking to him in 2024. 00:34:30.643 --> 00:34:33.973 And you can see the difference in the look from a scrappy radio studio to 00:34:33.973 --> 00:34:36.133 a proper visualized podcast studio. 00:34:36.343 --> 00:34:39.743 So, I believe in visualization as something I've talked 00:34:39.743 --> 00:34:40.883 about in a lot of places. 00:34:40.883 --> 00:34:43.043 I did the presentation at Radio Days Europe last year. 00:34:43.133 --> 00:34:45.113 I've been working with some other broadcasters on that. 00:34:45.143 --> 00:34:48.083 But one thing that's interesting that you said about is people not wanting to 00:34:48.083 --> 00:34:51.563 see in the booth, because one of the big projects I worked on was something called 00:34:51.563 --> 00:34:56.783 6 Music Live, where I arrived at 6 Music, which is like a indie music station here 00:34:56.783 --> 00:35:00.683 in the UK and wanted to do something with The Morning Show, which is presented by 00:35:00.773 --> 00:35:04.553 a presenter called Lauren Laverne, who's quite famous in the UK, and we took the 00:35:04.553 --> 00:35:08.418 show to BBC Maida Vale, which is where BBC records lots of live sessions, and we 00:35:08.418 --> 00:35:12.828 had lots of bands play, and we did this for five days in a row every six months. 00:35:12.948 --> 00:35:15.438 When we started, we were sort of scrapping around for bands to do it 00:35:15.438 --> 00:35:18.113 the week before, and by the time we finished we had Paul McCartney and 00:35:18.173 --> 00:35:20.058 Robert Plant and Blow and all sorts. 00:35:20.058 --> 00:35:20.778 It was amazing. 00:35:20.838 --> 00:35:25.068 What was interesting is that while we visualized the bands playing and you 00:35:25.068 --> 00:35:28.338 could watch that sort of when you're connected TV or online, the bit that 00:35:28.338 --> 00:35:31.658 people were really interested in was seeing Lauren because we built sort of 00:35:31.658 --> 00:35:35.028 a little studio at  Maida Vale, and you could see her, she'd be holding 00:35:35.028 --> 00:35:38.208 signs up to the camera while the music was playing, or she'd be dancing in the 00:35:38.208 --> 00:35:40.308 studio or chatting to the guests off air. 00:35:40.398 --> 00:35:42.708 And actually that was the bit that people found really interesting. 00:35:42.708 --> 00:35:45.833 So I'm gonna slightly disagree on the not seeing, seeing 00:35:45.833 --> 00:35:46.958 inside the booth, but I think, 00:35:47.218 --> 00:35:47.438 Jennifer-Lee: No. 00:35:47.438 --> 00:35:48.593 But she had people though. 00:35:48.593 --> 00:35:50.543 Brett Spencer: A lot of the times she was just by herself, I'll send you, I've 00:35:50.543 --> 00:35:53.963 got a little compilation video, which I'll send you and you can have a look. 00:35:54.343 --> 00:35:56.513 But it was the insight to people in what that show looks like 00:35:56.513 --> 00:35:57.803 'cause I can't normally watch it. 00:35:57.803 --> 00:35:59.993 So it was interesting to see her in action in the studio. 00:36:00.043 --> 00:36:03.583 So I've done a lot around visualization in my career and continue to do so. 00:36:04.023 --> 00:36:07.893 But in terms of visualization of podcasts, I think I sort of am slightly 00:36:07.893 --> 00:36:11.523 the opposite to where I'm in radio, which is it's really about resource. 00:36:11.643 --> 00:36:14.613 A lot of people will come to me and say, I want to do a podcast. 00:36:14.613 --> 00:36:16.763 And I'll say, okay, well, what's your plan? 00:36:16.853 --> 00:36:18.653 And they'll tell me all the things they want to do. 00:36:19.433 --> 00:36:20.993 They're gonna write it, they're gonna record it, they're gonna edit it, 00:36:20.998 --> 00:36:23.213 are they're gonna publish it, they're gonna do social media around it. 00:36:23.213 --> 00:36:25.463 They're gonna, they give me a whole plan of what they're gonna do. 00:36:25.493 --> 00:36:28.283 To which I will say, well, what sort of time have you got? 00:36:28.283 --> 00:36:31.373 And they're like, I've got like a couple of hours on a Wednesday morning. 00:36:32.153 --> 00:36:35.243 And what they've just described to me is basically two and a half days work. 00:36:35.273 --> 00:36:35.843 You know what I mean? 00:36:35.843 --> 00:36:38.753 And they're really shocked by that, that it's two and a half days work. 00:36:38.813 --> 00:36:42.448 Now, throw video into the mix, then that's even more work. 00:36:42.508 --> 00:36:47.718 So I think a video for podcasting is great if you are a big business and you 00:36:47.718 --> 00:36:49.698 can sustain it and you have the resource. 00:36:49.788 --> 00:36:54.318 I think the rush for everyone to do video is potentially a bit of a misstep 00:36:54.348 --> 00:36:59.388 because as we've said already on this podcast, it's 50% making the thing. 00:36:59.628 --> 00:37:01.908 It's 50% getting people to listen to it. 00:37:01.998 --> 00:37:05.748 If you're spending 50% making the thing and then you are also making the thing 00:37:05.748 --> 00:37:09.938 again in video, there's even less time to be able to get people to listen to it. 00:37:09.998 --> 00:37:13.898 I would say video's great if you're a big company and you've got the resource and, 00:37:13.898 --> 00:37:17.828 or you've got big names doing your podcast or big celebrities doing your podcast. 00:37:17.918 --> 00:37:22.418 But generally I would always advise people to spend more time on the 50% of getting 00:37:22.418 --> 00:37:27.428 people to listen to it than worried less about getting people to watch it early on. 00:37:27.788 --> 00:37:31.988 Neil McPhedran: I do like how you use the term visualize though, visualization. 00:37:31.988 --> 00:37:37.173 I think that's an interesting sort of way to think about it that makes 00:37:37.323 --> 00:37:43.383 it, I think it sort of opens it up a bit more than it just being a video. 00:37:43.383 --> 00:37:48.033 To me there's more in what you're saying there, how to visualize what the show is. 00:37:48.123 --> 00:37:48.603 Brett Spencer: Absolutely. 00:37:48.603 --> 00:37:51.873 Visualizing radio and making a video of something, I think 00:37:51.873 --> 00:37:52.953 are two different things. 00:37:53.233 --> 00:37:56.813 So if you're visualizing what you are doing, that's obviously gonna be less 00:37:56.813 --> 00:38:00.803 arduous than if you're actually just trying to make a television version of 00:38:00.803 --> 00:38:02.103 what you're doing, if that makes sense. 00:38:02.123 --> 00:38:05.783 So I've always focused on the visualization of the content and the 00:38:05.783 --> 00:38:10.203 radio or audio elements must still be the priority, if that makes sense. 00:38:10.243 --> 00:38:11.553 That's still the thing. 00:38:12.173 --> 00:38:13.033 Neil McPhedran: I think that's great. 00:38:13.203 --> 00:38:14.103 Jennifer-Lee: I agree with that. 00:38:14.463 --> 00:38:16.953 I, it's a good place to wrap up because I feel like we could talk 00:38:16.953 --> 00:38:18.663 to Brett for another a few hours. 00:38:18.843 --> 00:38:22.593 Neil McPhedran: No, I think that's a good spot to end on for this conversation. 00:38:22.593 --> 00:38:23.103 That's great. 00:38:23.103 --> 00:38:25.563 So thank you so much for joining us today, Brett. 00:38:25.563 --> 00:38:29.613 This has been a really interesting conversation and congratulations on an 00:38:29.613 --> 00:38:35.193 amazing program, and I'm looking forward to seeing how it evolves and hearing more 00:38:35.193 --> 00:38:39.308 about some of the amazing students that are gonna be coming out of the program. 00:38:39.398 --> 00:38:42.998 I think we're gonna start to see more and more at the university level, see 00:38:42.998 --> 00:38:46.778 more and more of these kind of programs that people are gonna start to do. 00:38:46.778 --> 00:38:49.628 So if you're okay, you might have people reach out to you. 00:38:49.628 --> 00:38:49.988 Brett Spencer: That's fine. 00:38:50.168 --> 00:38:53.108 I'm very happy if people wanna reach out and ask me, particularly 00:38:53.108 --> 00:38:54.188 if they live in Vancouver. 00:38:56.138 --> 00:38:59.248 Jennifer-Lee: He's willing to work with universities and colleges in Vancouver. 00:38:59.248 --> 00:38:59.928 Brett Spencer: In Vancouver. 00:38:59.928 --> 00:39:03.003 Neil McPhedran: Well you got UBC and SFU, so there you go. 00:39:03.218 --> 00:39:04.088 So excellent. 00:39:04.088 --> 00:39:04.363 Jennifer-Lee: There we go. 00:39:04.818 --> 00:39:05.748 Neil McPhedran: Thank you so much. 00:39:05.958 --> 00:39:06.998 Jennifer-Lee: Thank you so much for having me on. 00:39:06.998 --> 00:39:10.968 It's great to meet you and put faces to the voices, even though 00:39:10.968 --> 00:39:12.558 other people can't see you. 00:39:13.098 --> 00:39:16.428 I have to tell you, dear listener, before we recorded this podcast, we 00:39:16.428 --> 00:39:20.928 were talking about cats for a good 10 minutes, and that audio was probably as 00:39:20.928 --> 00:39:22.518 interesting as the hour we've just done. 00:39:23.643 --> 00:39:24.483 Neil McPhedran: Thank you so much. 00:39:24.783 --> 00:39:25.203 Brett Spencer: Thank you. 00:39:26.373 --> 00:39:29.013 Neil McPhedran: Okay, Jen, another amazing conversation. 00:39:29.013 --> 00:39:34.923 I really loved chatting with Brett, especially liked his love for Vancouver. 00:39:34.983 --> 00:39:42.348 We definitely gotta get him here helping to add a such an incredible program. 00:39:42.528 --> 00:39:44.898 Wouldn't it be great to see something like that at UBC or 00:39:44.898 --> 00:39:47.418 SFU or, or BCIT where you went. 00:39:47.443 --> 00:39:50.268 Jennifer-Lee: Or my old program BCIT I've gotta hook 'em up. 00:39:50.268 --> 00:39:53.448 I, I see this, I, this makes me so excited. 00:39:53.448 --> 00:39:58.308 I want Brett to come here and like, change the schooling for broadcasting 00:39:58.338 --> 00:40:00.408 so, you know, we're gonna hook 'em up. 00:40:00.408 --> 00:40:02.538 So I feel very inspired. 00:40:03.228 --> 00:40:05.028 Neil McPhedran: Plus just that British accent. 00:40:05.028 --> 00:40:07.488 It just, you know, adds a layer of sophistication. 00:40:07.548 --> 00:40:08.028 Jennifer-Lee: It does. 00:40:09.098 --> 00:40:12.918 We've been talking to a lot of people from London lately, and I was like, I love it. 00:40:12.918 --> 00:40:16.218 And being in the conference, it's just such a different conference 00:40:16.218 --> 00:40:17.958 when everybody has a British accent. 00:40:17.958 --> 00:40:18.678 It's the best. 00:40:18.798 --> 00:40:21.288 Neil McPhedran: I think, more and more, and we've got a couple coming 00:40:21.318 --> 00:40:25.728 up of others in Europe and other Canadians that we're gonna be talking 00:40:25.728 --> 00:40:30.888 to in some coming episodes, I'm really excited to be reaching broadly 00:40:31.248 --> 00:40:36.078 around the world and just sort of exploring what's going on in academic 00:40:36.078 --> 00:40:39.018 podcasting, university podcasting. 00:40:39.018 --> 00:40:42.468 And it's just really amazing to see sort of what's happening on 00:40:42.468 --> 00:40:45.018 campuses and in academic research. 00:40:45.108 --> 00:40:46.548 But why don't we just end it there. 00:40:46.548 --> 00:40:47.718 That was such a good conversation. 00:40:47.718 --> 00:40:49.098 I'm not sure we could add anything more. 00:40:49.443 --> 00:40:50.643 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, there we go. 00:40:50.673 --> 00:40:53.703 Thank you for tuning into Continuing Studies podcast, the podcast 00:40:53.703 --> 00:40:55.623 for higher education podcasters. 00:40:55.923 --> 00:40:59.073 We hope you follow this episode informing and inspiring. 00:40:59.343 --> 00:41:02.493 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our 00:41:02.493 --> 00:41:06.123 podcast on your preferred platform so you'll never miss an episode. 00:41:06.123 --> 00:41:09.663 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider 00:41:09.663 --> 00:41:13.083 sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested 00:41:13.083 --> 00:41:14.823 in a higher education podcast. 00:41:15.123 --> 00:41:20.703 We also invite you to join your peers on HigherEdPods.com, where you can connect 00:41:20.703 --> 00:41:24.783 with other podcasters in higher education and learn from others in the field. 00:41:25.083 --> 00:41:27.003 Thank you for being part of our community. 00:41:27.003 --> 00:41:30.963 We look forward to continue to bring you valuable insights and conversations 00:41:30.963 --> 00:41:32.883 around higher education podcast. 00:41:33.153 --> 00:41:34.323 See you in the next episode.