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Thanks for joining me on Let's Get Digital.

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I'm Carrie Charles, your host, and today I have with me Phil Shee.

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He is the founder and managing director of Structure Research.

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Phil, thanks for coming on the show.

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Thanks for having me.

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So we met at ITW, right?

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Yup, that wasn't that long ago.

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Yeah, it sure wasn't.

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Boy, time flies.

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uh I know you have an interesting journey, and I'd love to hear a little bit about the
founding story of structure research, how you got to where you are today.

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Yeah, mean, the whole story, it's just so much kind of just kind of live in life and then
just kind of making decisions based on, you know, opportunities and doors that open ah and

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kind of getting to the point in life where you thought, hey, maybe there's a better way to
do this uh and kind of saying, hey, I got to take the leap.

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If I'm ever going to do it, I got to do it now.

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It was kind of like uh that kind of thinking, you know, and like you, I think many years
ago, you just said, hey,

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What would it be like to not have a boss and to drive a lot of the decisions that I
increasingly am not agreeing with in the firm I'm at?

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I don't think that's an unusual, you know, that's not a unique story.

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But honestly, that's what drove it.

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It's like that question is like, hey, what if I did, you know, have the control and the
ability to make decisions and drive this in the way I want, but that's going to take a

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leap as in, you know, saying goodbye to a regular paycheck.

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predictability and the comfort and trying something completely different, which, you know,
I think a lot of entrepreneurs or people who've gone on their own did not necessarily have

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that in the plans, have that in store.

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Again, it's about opportunity and, know, the field I was in, or the field that we are in,
this industry, you know, was healthy then.

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I saw, I think I saw the upside as many of us did.

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And I thought, well, if you put those things together, wow, maybe this could work.

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And yeah, I'm glad, I'm glad I made the leap.

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was the

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you know, something that I didn't expect, but I'm glad it's working out and uh I'm
grateful for the opportunity that the industry has provided.

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How many years ago was that?

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Yeah, 2011.

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So late in 2011, I decided to make the jump and I've been at it ever since.

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Okay, well you know what you're doing, so let's get into it.

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Well first, tell us more about structure research.

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Yeah, in a nutshell, for those of you who aren't familiar, we describe ourselves and think
of ourselves as a boutique research firm, which is another way of saying we're smaller,

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we're slightly understaffed, but we are specialists.

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And that's kind of part and parcel of our value proposition.

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We have seven analysts that spend all our time in this sector.

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When I say this sector, we used to call it internet infrastructure.

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But data centers, managed cloud, managed hosting, what used to be called managed hosting.

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But the infrastructure services ecosystem, what fits now under the kind of broader rubric
of digital infrastructure, we're kind of more focused on the compute-oriented

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infrastructure side, rather than say wireless and connectivity.

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We're very much, you know, I started my career basically, know, following server
companies, server hosting companies.

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And that's morphed over the years into managed services.

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data centers and now hyper scale in AI.

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So yeah, the boutique, that's who we are.

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We spend all our time publishing industry focused research.

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Think of us as living in the kind of middle ground between a Wall Street analyst or a
street analyst that's focused on earnings, the stock, the value of that stock and

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recommending it to investor clients.

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And then on the other kind of the other side of the spectrum, kind of more technical or
technology oriented analysts that are focused on

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the kind of details and the nuts and bolts of the technology pieces, we're very much
focused on the industry, kind of macro trends, the landscape, the big picture, helping,

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ultimately trying to provide information perspective and insights to help executives make
decisions.

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And that's kind of, in a nutshell, who we are.

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So you do compete in a space with massive analyst firms.

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And I guess I would look at it a little bit like David and Goliath, but what makes your
boutique approach different and also advantageous for your clients?

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Yeah, mean, it's again, the specialization kind of creates a certain, you know, certain
amount of efficiency for the executive decision maker that subscribes to the service.

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You know, they want information that's tailored and curated to their world, their focus
and what they care about.

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That's our pitch when we meet people.

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It's like, hey, if you're spending a lot of time in this sector, if you care about what's
going on in this sector, if you have a stake, whether financial or kind of strategic,

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ah you know, we could be the right service for you.

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We don't kind of try to cover too much ground.

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And that's how, you know, honestly, we too much ground in the sense that we don't cover a
lot of other sectors.

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You know, we're not even covering broader digital infrastructure like towers, wires, I
mentioned, wireless and connectivity is kind of slightly kind of referral to what we do.

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And that's how we exist.

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You know, you asked the question, how do we exist against some of the larger firms?

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Well, we've selected a sector that we think is valuable.

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that is frankly a bit undercover, don't let that get out, and say, hey, we're all about
this.

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And if this is what you care about, we uh could be of service.

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We're not for everybody.

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ah And we're pretty comfortable with that.

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And again, that's our pitch and that's how we survive.

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The bigger firms tend to offer more and continue to offer more.

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They're obviously have hundreds, thousands of people on their staff and they can cover a
lot of ground.

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But we give you something very focused.

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So we dive into, uh

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we're able to provide a lot of depth and we give you a senior analyst perspective.

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Everybody in our team, ah whether you're a junior analyst, but you quickly within our kind
of environment ramp up pretty quickly because you're just doing this.

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You're not focused on anything else.

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Okay, that makes sense, and you've been doing it a long time.

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Yeah, since 2011.

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And kind of just gradually built up the team over the years.

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yeah, that's the great world of remote working.

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We were a remote team before COVID, the pandemic.

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And it's working.

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That's great.

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That's great.

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So you have an event.

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I guess it's been going for six years now, right?

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It's infrastructure.

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um Infra is, uh I guess, small letters, then there's, uh you know, structure is all caps,
but it's an infrastructure summit.

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It's in Las Vegas, October 15th and 16th.

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I know I'm gonna be there.

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Can you tell us a little bit about the event?

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What makes it different than all the other industry events as well?

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So Infrastructure was founded, we had our first event in 2018.

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It ah is the sixth edition this year, there were a couple years where we didn't have it
due to that pandemic.

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ah And it started uh as and still is meant to be an executive summit ah that is unique in
the sense in that it's very uncommercialized.

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So the content is obviously the agenda is backed, supported and led by an analyst team
that is independent.

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that is not tied to, you know, kind of any vendor or platform or investment vehicle.

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uh Rather, we bring those parts of the ecosystem to our summit so that people can kind of
network, you know, partner, engage in business development, and of course, discuss kind of

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the present and future of the sector.

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so research, you know, I believe, and I think our audience values is a really great
backdrop and context for that discussion.

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And so that's what we decided to do in 2018.

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We slowly built up the event and you know our mantra for the summit is you know quality
over quantity.

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We're not trying to build an expo.

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We actually don't really have an exhibit hall.

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We make this very clear to our sponsors that want to come.

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That if you want to come it's a different type of engagement.

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There's obviously room for business development but the way you go about it, the way you
engage is a bit different because it's a summit because we're in the participation is in

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the hundreds rather than thousands.

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Yeah.

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No, give me a little bit of a peek into the agenda, maybe some topics that you're going to
cover and people who are going to attend maybe.

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Yeah, so it's executive heavy.

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So VPC level, a lot of owners, lot of entrepreneurs who run their business, a lot of CEOs.

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And that's kind of the primary demographic.

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uh But we surround them with uh two other major uh groups of people, which are investors
and financiers, or people on the finance side and real estate side of the game, and then

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suppliers, people who sell products, services, or resources.

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to the operating service providers so that they can build and deliver their services.

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Real estate can also fall in that category.

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Increasingly, we have energy and then of course software and hardware and construction
services, commissioning services, various types of vendors that support this ecosystem.

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ah So that's the audience and then the agenda uh tries to cater to the questions of the
day um that everybody again that has a stake and interest in the sector

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um you know, want answers to or want to hear discussion about or hear from, you know,
leading minds and, you know, thought leaders in the space.

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So, you know, you asked about the agenda this year.

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ah You know, we try to find a balance.

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So there's going to be some sessions, uh &A, you know, on the strategic landscape, uh big
picture questions around, you know, the impact of AI, uh the impact of the recent

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hyperscale pullbacks.

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how that impacts the demand profile of the sector.

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We have various topics on energy this year, how are energy constraints uh influencing or
constraining the ability of uh operating companies to continue to build in the face of

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significant steam of demand.

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And of course, there's always those who are a little skeptical and it's a great balance.

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oh This year, we hope to have a lot of discussion.

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m

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between those who are a bit bearish and those who are a bit bullish.

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That seems to come up every kind of cycle or phase in the sector where you see some
skeptics rise up, know, and, you know, not without, you know, of legitimate concerns about

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where things are going.

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But that fuels a great debate and discussion.

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And, you know, we love the diversity of opinions and takes.

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So your 2025 theme is concurrence and I wanted you to talk more about what that means and
why is it the right framing for today's infrastructure challenges.

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Yeah, every year, so every year we try to pick one word as the theme, right?

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So we've had, except for the first year, uh but we've had decentralization to kind of
capture where the sector was moving a bit to the edge, uh acceleration coming out of the

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pandemic in terms of kind of where the growth was.

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And this year we picked concurrence, which is meant to capture kind of just the many
moving parts in this space.

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Right.

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So I did have to look up the dictionary definition of concurrence and it is on the
website.

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kind of cut that out and put it in there.

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Thanks, Merriam Webster.

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But, you know, just try to capture kind of where the sector is in terms of how it's
preparing and engaging in building for this, you know, next wave that's coming.

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And so a lot of moving parts, a lot of different things happening at the same time.

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That's kind of what we're trying to capture, you know.

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We're built, hyperscale is still, hyperscale cloud is still driving things.

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AI is on the horizon.

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Power constraints are developing.

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How, you know, uh that opens up kind of a different regulatory picture.

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uh Capital is flowing into the sector.

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How do all these things moving kind of at the same time and kind of changing the way
things are done?

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You know, how does that, you how do we make sense of that?

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How does the sector organize around that to push forward?

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So.

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Yeah, um hopefully that makes sense.

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We do try to be little edgy and different, but at the same time, capture what is the most
pressing dynamics in this space.

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And that's what the concurrence is about.

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So with over 20 years covering global infrastructure services, what have been the most
impactful market shifts that you've observed?

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Yeah, I mean, I think quite clearly the biggest shift was, you know, probably the, let's
just agree the sector was born in the late 90s, early 2000s.

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ah So the big shifts, I think, have been pretty clear that, you know, for those of you who
are a little older and remember the dot-com bubble, ah seems like, you know, it's almost

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25 years ago now, quarter century.

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ah That would be kind of the first thing, you know, one of the

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the first big seismic events that kind of gave birth in many ways to the sector as a lot
of operating companies kind of built out of the dregs of what happened.

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And the sector was so young, a lot of assets were sold pennies on the dollar and the value
proposition of the space kind of took advantage of that situation to kind of build.

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And then in 2000, the next kind of big development, 2006, AWS, Amazon decides to get into
the cloud business back then.

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strictly known as an online book retailer, really not even, what did you buy from Amazon
in 2006 besides books?

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Nothing.

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They got into the cloud business, which was a curiosity at the time, but set off a decade
plus move from kind of traditional infrastructure, which was still young and still

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developing.

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uh We didn't call it cloud then, ah but was still developing.

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then at the same time, this

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kind of hyperscale, what we now call hyperscale cloud, public cloud, was developing in the
background, started to increasingly kind of become more prominent and now arguably, uh you

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know, is probably the dominant kind of computing platform of choice for, or not to say
it's the only one, but it's definitely, you know, front and center and controls a

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significant part of this ecosystem.

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And so our sector has transitioned and built around that.

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data centers, managed services, MSPs are all part of that.

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And of course, there's still a lot of diversity in terms of other cloud platforms, but
that's the big one.

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That's been a, depending on what part of the world you're sitting in, a decade, decade and
a half.

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It always amazes me how young some parts of the world, they're hyperscale.

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The markets in those countries are so young, maybe just a few years with hyperscale cloud.

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So that wave's still ongoing.

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And I think the next big one most of us can agree is coming.

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ah How it's going to play out, we don't all agree on, but AI and how that is going to
accelerate things is the next big inflection point wave that we'll pick up.

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But interestingly, think overlap a bit with hyperscale cloud.

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So you've led consulting mandates totaling over three billion in deals.

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Is that, am I right?

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My reading?

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My research?

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I think so.

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Yeah, if we put it out there, we did a bit of quick math.

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eh

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Okay, good.

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Can you share a standout transaction that really shaped Structure Research's strategic
approach?

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Sure, ah so we're not a consulting firm, we're research firm uh at heart.

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That's the of the majority of where our business model is built on that.

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We do consulting on a strategic basis, on a selective basis, mostly around, as you
mentioned, &A transactions.

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We don't necessarily lead kind of that process.

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We let the consultants do what they're good at.

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We come in as the market expert, the subject matter expert, the market data source.

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and support transaction activity in that way.

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So, you know, we've done small transactions, large-scale ones.

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We've done the first one I did under the banner of structural research was actually in
Europe.

205
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ah But we've done work in North America and we have quite a specialized practice in Asia
Pacific.

206
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ah Our head of research and myself, Hale, from the region still have strong ties there,
spend a lot of time there.

207
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And that's actually where the largest transaction we've done, which was the

208
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kind of previous, not the recent one, but the previous investment in Australia's Air
Trunk, which is, know, hyperscale data center platform.

209
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uh And, you know, that value is a good chunk of the 3 billion you referenced.

210
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uh But yeah, that's, that's, I mean, that's just one example of things we've done in the
past to support &A in the space.

211
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Do you have proprietary em data sets that differentiate your insights?

212
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Absolutely.

213
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All our market share data, everything we put out there is built from the ground up
internally and organically.

214
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It's a pretty painful, painstaking process.

215
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It's a grind, we describe it, but we feel it pays off and it ensures the integrity of the
data that we put out there.

216
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So yeah, every data set is based on what we feel is...

217
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hard work, getting boots, we like to call it getting boots on the ground, talking to
operators, visiting sites, making sure we're double checking those facts with other

218
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sources.

219
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A lot of what we call triangulation, throwing out the high, throwing out the low, taking
data points, try to compare them and you tend to get closer to the truth if you undertake

220
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that process.

221
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yeah, absolutely everything we put out there, we've built, we own, we stand by it and try
to refine.

222
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I think one of the other things that we, I think we do really well is that we refine over
time.

223
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So we're always kind of, you know, uh we don't think we have the answer, the answers and
at any given time.

224
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And, you know, if we see other kind of facts or feedback or insights that tell us that
we're wrong, we're going to adjust.

225
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And so that, you know, over time we get closer to the truth and that's the approach we've
taken.

226
00:19:11,605 --> 00:19:15,645
So data center M &A hit record levels in 2024.

227
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I was reading that also.

228
00:19:17,745 --> 00:19:19,825
And what do you think is driving this?

229
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mean, I probably we probably all know that.

230
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But what should infrastructure leaders know about navigating this current M &A
environment?

231
00:19:28,962 --> 00:19:38,945
Yeah, I mean, I think what's interesting, I mean, I would say not that we have, I have a
hard data point, but my sense definitely is that the number of transactions is lower, but

232
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the value is higher, right?

233
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Is that, that's kind of, if you were measuring like, Hey, there was more value, you know,
more transactions it's because the numbers are just so big now.

234
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Um, you know, what would I say in terms of, you know, I

235
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of kind of where we are and where we're going and how would operating executives kind of
look at that, I would say.

236
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I mean, first of all, I think that's one thing that hasn't changed is that the sector has
always seen consistent and steady strategic activity across the board from kind of early

237
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gen cloud, smaller service providers to the largest operating platforms in the world.

238
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ah I think it's a product of the fact that the sector has always been

239
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you know, very kind of fragmented in its own way across different segments and now is
increasingly global, which has actually caused a cause, you know, led to kind of, you

240
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could argue more fragmentation with regional markets, you know, and global operating
companies operating in different regions and countries around the world.

241
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I think, I think that's just kind of part and parcel of how this stuff is built is that
because infrastructure is

242
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Not like an iPhone or something.

243
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It's not like a closed walled garden.

244
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It's really aggregation and piecing together of different resources.

245
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And they're done in different ways in different markets in different countries and regions
around the world.

246
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And so that creates a very heterogeneous environment that's conducive to M &A.

247
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I don't think it's going away.

248
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It goes through waves where there's more activity than not.

249
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But in my experience, it's been steady just for so long.

250
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And I know a lot of my &A and banking contacts are very happy about that, of course.

251
00:21:25,451 --> 00:21:40,840
um But yeah, I would say to operating executives, that it's always something there to
support strategic activity can always support growth and expansion.

252
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There are great options out there.

253
00:21:42,921 --> 00:21:44,354
um

254
00:21:44,354 --> 00:21:48,325
the value of, you know, the valuation of assets in the space has always been high.

255
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It continues to, you know, to climb depending on what part of the market you're in.

256
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And that would be, I guess, the last kind of, I guess, if I could add a tidbit is to
understand which segment you're in in the market and to kind of build, evolve and

257
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transition your business accordingly.

258
00:22:04,831 --> 00:22:05,111
Right.

259
00:22:05,111 --> 00:22:14,232
So there are always going to be certain sectors that are, that have, that are healthier,
certain sort, certain segments within the overall kind of data center infrastructures.

260
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cloud infrastructure space that are trending in a better direction that have healthier
upside.

261
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There are some services now that we call legacy fairly because they are at a different
stage in their evolution.

262
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And so when you're looking at operating assets with your, or an operating side and looking
to exit, or you're on the buying side and looking to build, expand, diversify, augment, uh

263
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those are the, I think that is the most important thing to think about.

264
00:22:41,666 --> 00:22:44,765
And hopefully a research firm can help provide some context to that.

265
00:22:45,366 --> 00:22:48,397
So we can't have a conversation without talking about AI.

266
00:22:48,397 --> 00:22:49,787
So here we go.

267
00:22:49,828 --> 00:22:55,070
And everyone's talking about AI driving massive data center demand.

268
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But you track the actual numbers.

269
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So behind the hype, if you will.

270
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So what does that real data tell us about AI's impact on the sector?

271
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Yeah, it's a crazy time to be an analyst because the short answer to that question is, you
know, materialization of that demand is still very much at a very early stage of

272
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development, right?

273
00:23:21,382 --> 00:23:25,934
So that's not to say that things haven't landed and are running and impacting growth.

274
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It certainly has.

275
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But the the kind of surge or the wave that we expect if this technology continues to move
in the direction we see it moving.

276
00:23:37,154 --> 00:23:38,945
We're still probably a few years out, right?

277
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To see that kind of really spike uh or shift in that trajectory on your PowerPoint charts
and everything.

278
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Maybe it will look like a hockey stick, but not right now.

279
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Right now, things are still being driven by what they've been driven by, which is public
cloud, hyperscale cloud.

280
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But you're starting to see these models start to be built.

281
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And then when that happens, there's kind of a spin-off effect across infrastructure.

282
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So the models will be trained and they'll have to be used by the end user to deliver them.

283
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They'll have to build inferencing infrastructure.

284
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And then to maintain fine-tune and perfect those models, you're going to need
infrastructure that sits almost in between where the models are built, the large-scale

285
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models, and then of course the inferencing.

286
00:24:28,763 --> 00:24:30,890
And so that's more infrastructure.

287
00:24:30,890 --> 00:24:38,512
And then you need connectivity to move the data, to access the data, which means more
interconnection uptake, more network services.

288
00:24:38,732 --> 00:24:42,313
And that spins off into service providers, et cetera, et cetera.

289
00:24:42,313 --> 00:24:55,477
yeah, the way we're modeling it is we're trying, it's not an exact science as you can
imagine, but we're trying to kind of predict when in the next few years some of these

290
00:24:55,477 --> 00:24:58,926
things start to come online and that spin-off effect takes shape.

291
00:24:58,926 --> 00:25:01,598
ah and then impacts kind of the entire ecosystem.

292
00:25:01,598 --> 00:25:12,234
So our latest update, our latest numbers, you'll see a meaningful increase in what we're
projecting for growth, but with a spike not quite coming just yet.

293
00:25:12,234 --> 00:25:17,668
ah And it's very hard to predict and understand what that spike will look like.

294
00:25:17,668 --> 00:25:25,162
So historical precedent is useful, but not always a perfect kind of comp comparison.

295
00:25:25,212 --> 00:25:29,589
Can you just give me a little peek into what art, you're predicting?

296
00:25:29,838 --> 00:25:38,178
Yeah, no, I mean, I think we had the data center co-location space last year growing at
about 13 and a half percent globally.

297
00:25:39,238 --> 00:25:49,358
We now have it closer to 20 % and believe it'll be growing over 20 % in the next few years
based on kind of everything we're seeing.

298
00:25:50,055 --> 00:25:59,329
So are we building fast enough and what are the bottlenecks that most people are just not
seeing?

299
00:26:00,108 --> 00:26:15,465
Yeah, it's difficult to say if we're or not building fast enough because the way this
demand will materialize is hard to predict because it's so new.

300
00:26:15,465 --> 00:26:25,979
Hyperscale cloud, if you're building availability zones for traditional cloud
infrastructure, we have enough of a sample size to be able to predict within reason what

301
00:26:25,979 --> 00:26:27,149
it might look like.

302
00:26:28,718 --> 00:26:30,978
are going to look very different.

303
00:26:31,558 --> 00:26:33,718
So yeah, it's hard.

304
00:26:34,538 --> 00:26:44,078
I say it's hard to say, and I'm kind of just, I think I kind of just missed the other part
of your question as I was saying that, but right, right, right.

305
00:26:44,078 --> 00:26:45,258
The bottlenecks.

306
00:26:46,358 --> 00:26:54,798
So yeah, so it's difficult to say whether we're building too fast just because we don't
know what's, we don't have a clear picture yet of what's coming.

307
00:26:54,798 --> 00:26:56,918
But in terms of bottlenecks, absolutely.

308
00:26:56,918 --> 00:26:58,438
I think you can see.

309
00:26:58,508 --> 00:27:08,746
that the most clear characteristic of this next wave is the amount of energy that needs to
be consumed.

310
00:27:08,767 --> 00:27:20,768
And there are increasingly signs that in the most mature markets, ah especially, of
course, in the United States, that uh if any of these predictions or projections are even

311
00:27:20,768 --> 00:27:26,042
close, there's going to be significant uh shortage of energy.

312
00:27:26,534 --> 00:27:36,778
And so that's kind of one of the biggest, if not the biggest constraint I would throw in
there as well, uh which related to energy is of course, land in it, real estate.

313
00:27:37,179 --> 00:27:40,120
But there's also a shortage of expertise, right?

314
00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:46,212
you need, uh hyperscale platforms have come to build on their own.

315
00:27:46,212 --> 00:27:51,184
They face their self-build internally and not use data center co-location operators.

316
00:27:51,204 --> 00:27:55,586
They've come across their own constraints and there are only so many

317
00:27:55,662 --> 00:28:07,489
uh credible, uh reputable, established kind of data center operating platforms that can
build at this level of this scale at the quality that's going to be required.

318
00:28:07,549 --> 00:28:18,825
yeah, land, energy, expertise, and then the regulatory environment as well could be a
constraint given the constraints on energy are going to cause a shift to alternative

319
00:28:18,825 --> 00:28:23,538
sources of energy, uh nuclear being that one that's been discussed quite a bit.

320
00:28:23,623 --> 00:28:27,467
but also comes with a lot of regulatory implications.

321
00:28:28,048 --> 00:28:30,441
yeah, it's a concurrence.

322
00:28:30,441 --> 00:28:38,942
A lot of things happening at the same time that need to be resolved and solved before the
sector can move forward.

323
00:28:39,592 --> 00:28:52,229
So I'm a data center, let's say I'm a data center owner operator, what are some key uh
data points that I need to know that will help me navigate all of this, the concurrence?

324
00:28:53,442 --> 00:28:56,744
Yeah, I would say come to the show and hear the discussion.

325
00:28:56,744 --> 00:28:57,824
That's one.

326
00:28:58,285 --> 00:29:00,546
Las Vegas in October is not a bad time of year.

327
00:29:00,546 --> 00:29:04,708
um you know, it's a good question.

328
00:29:04,708 --> 00:29:09,131
There's so many different kind of data points and factoids.

329
00:29:09,131 --> 00:29:20,537
would say if you're an operating executive is to kind of look for honestly, I mean, the
market is healthy, but at the same time, there's a lot of competition, right?

330
00:29:20,537 --> 00:29:21,839
There's a lot of capital flowing into space.

331
00:29:21,839 --> 00:29:23,498
Everybody wants to get involved.

332
00:29:23,574 --> 00:29:34,270
Um, you know, finding a market inefficiency is, you know, if, you're a new operating, you
know, whether you're a new operating platform or an existing one that's looking for other

333
00:29:34,270 --> 00:29:40,043
opportunities, you know, finding where market inefficiencies are, uh, I think is going to
be increasingly important.

334
00:29:40,043 --> 00:29:47,994
Uh, sometimes the industry kind of, I don't want to say, you know, over indexed, maybe
over indexes a bit, or there's a lot of opportunity.

335
00:29:47,994 --> 00:29:51,920
And so everyone flocks in one direction and then certain parts get neglected.

336
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:52,782
Right.

337
00:29:52,782 --> 00:30:04,072
uh Obviously people push in a certain direction because for good reason, uh but in that
process, certain things come up, certain areas get slightly neglected.

338
00:30:04,072 --> 00:30:17,994
so I think you're going to start to see, uh think investors, operating companies should
explore kind of what we've described as the edge hyperscale market, which is kind of

339
00:30:17,994 --> 00:30:20,588
something that exists between enterprise and

340
00:30:20,588 --> 00:30:33,125
and kind of large scale, hyper scale that everybody has been chasing, availability zones,
regions that is a bit underserved, ah but there's no shortage of demand that's starting to

341
00:30:33,125 --> 00:30:34,006
build towards that.

342
00:30:34,006 --> 00:30:48,604
So edge hyper scale, pretty broad term meant to capture kind of secondary, second tier
markets or even within major markets, but certain type of requirement that's broadly

343
00:30:48,604 --> 00:30:49,514
speaking.

344
00:30:49,646 --> 00:30:55,386
single digit megawatt to 10 or 20 versus the very large deployments.

345
00:30:55,386 --> 00:31:02,646
And of course, the very small, the smaller kind of enterprise, is kind of a different,
increasingly a different business in and of itself.

346
00:31:03,528 --> 00:31:06,145
Let's keep looking at your crystal ball.

347
00:31:06,145 --> 00:31:09,071
What are hyperscalers going to do next?

348
00:31:09,902 --> 00:31:20,102
Yeah, mean, they, you know, I would say the one thing to keep in mind is that the CapEx
investments, the amount of investments they're making in data center and server

349
00:31:20,102 --> 00:31:23,042
infrastructure has not slowed down.

350
00:31:23,062 --> 00:31:34,942
Google yesterday, reported a, confirmed a increase in their projection by $10 billion for
their 2025 CapEx.

351
00:31:34,942 --> 00:31:37,022
So it went to 75 to 85.

352
00:31:37,242 --> 00:31:39,246
I'm sure some of you have already seen that.

353
00:31:39,246 --> 00:31:42,168
uh So the hygroscaler is going to continue expanding.

354
00:31:42,168 --> 00:31:54,794
ah going to, I think, behave as they always have, which is from the data center operating
perspective, a little fickle, a little kind of back and forth, a little...

355
00:31:56,195 --> 00:32:04,179
They're stressed, as many of us, uh in terms of trying to build for the future and trying
to project.

356
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:07,881
And they kind of oscillate between going their own...

357
00:32:07,881 --> 00:32:09,078
uh

358
00:32:09,078 --> 00:32:10,579
and then working with their partners.

359
00:32:10,579 --> 00:32:21,306
uh Sometimes they will kind of go through kind of phases where they emphasize one strategy
over the other.

360
00:32:21,438 --> 00:32:23,058
But it's an imperfect science.

361
00:32:23,058 --> 00:32:24,548
They're going to miss.

362
00:32:24,758 --> 00:32:26,630
They're going to have difficulties.

363
00:32:26,630 --> 00:32:29,932
Engagement with partners, I think, will always be a part of the strategy.

364
00:32:29,932 --> 00:32:38,848
The way these partnerships kind of move forward or the service that's provided them from
an infrastructure perspective can change and is changing.

365
00:32:38,862 --> 00:32:48,395
ah But I, you know, that would be my feedback to operating executives is in trying to
understand what the hyperscalers are doing is that know that they have difficulty with

366
00:32:48,395 --> 00:32:50,405
this and will this is not easy.

367
00:32:50,405 --> 00:32:57,187
Know that there are, you know, they are, you could argue a bit understaffed when it comes
to hyperscale procurement.

368
00:32:57,187 --> 00:33:00,248
The teams that people are working with are not big.

369
00:33:00,248 --> 00:33:05,469
ah So, you know, understand that they have a need for knowledge.

370
00:33:05,569 --> 00:33:09,100
They're going to continue to need to collaborate and partner.

371
00:33:09,134 --> 00:33:10,565
uh share information.

372
00:33:10,565 --> 00:33:22,279
And so I do predict a ongoing collaborative relationship, even if it can be a little
bumpy, maybe even a little weird at times or, you know, frustrating and stressful.

373
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:35,966
But I think kind of if you take a step back and look at the big picture, uh it is still
going to and I think need to be uh collaborative and a relationship between partners.

374
00:33:35,966 --> 00:33:36,876
uh

375
00:33:36,876 --> 00:33:41,630
rather than a vendor selling something to a buyer or an end user.

376
00:33:42,441 --> 00:33:46,210
Where else could hyperscale demand come from?

377
00:33:47,886 --> 00:33:56,005
I still think we're in the phase of we're in this long kind of maybe it's going to be a
two decade build out around the world.

378
00:33:56,005 --> 00:34:01,686
mean, a lot of hyperscale demand is coming from emerging markets in the world.

379
00:34:01,766 --> 00:34:12,406
Our practice is a bit slanted to three major regions, North America, Western Europe, and
Asia Pacific, not including China.

380
00:34:13,366 --> 00:34:15,454
And we spend time.

381
00:34:15,454 --> 00:34:20,796
in a lot of the second tier markets in those regions, especially Europe and Asia.

382
00:34:20,834 --> 00:34:25,319
I can tell you that they are just getting started with some of this stuff.

383
00:34:25,319 --> 00:34:33,563
the amount of hyperscale demand coming out of those regions and, you know, if you look at
South America, Middle East, Africa, we don't spend as much time.

384
00:34:33,563 --> 00:34:35,144
They're just getting started as well.

385
00:34:35,144 --> 00:34:40,206
So I think the global, you know, the global.

386
00:34:40,376 --> 00:34:45,490
kind of build out of cloud is still very much in its first phase and in the kind of second
and third tier.

387
00:34:45,490 --> 00:34:56,660
ah And that may not be an opportunity for everybody, granted, ah but that is a significant
driver of growth ah in the future.

388
00:34:56,660 --> 00:35:07,534
And of course, AI in the sense that the tools and services that are driving cloud
consumption, and ah I think sometimes this gets overlooked, that AI is fueling kind of

389
00:35:07,534 --> 00:35:17,211
quote, quote, tradition or public cloud infrastructure growth in that people are running
compute and storage on the cloud, but increasingly buying AI or AI type services that are

390
00:35:17,211 --> 00:35:21,225
built and delivered through the cloud as a delivery vehicle.

391
00:35:21,225 --> 00:35:26,198
And so that's why we're seeing public cloud growth in this quarter's earnings season is
already showing it.

392
00:35:26,198 --> 00:35:33,814
know, you know, steady if not acceleration and growth, just driven by the uptake in those
services.

393
00:35:34,906 --> 00:35:39,215
So Phil, you've seen multiple technology cycles.

394
00:35:39,297 --> 00:35:44,768
What's your prediction for the next major inflection point in digital infrastructure?

395
00:35:45,825 --> 00:35:53,106
I would say my prediction is that it's going to be a very long kind of wave, right?

396
00:35:53,506 --> 00:36:00,426
I think the hyperscale build out is still going on and it's, like I said, it's been going
on for a decade, decade and a half.

397
00:36:00,426 --> 00:36:03,526
AI, think, is going to take that to the next level.

398
00:36:03,566 --> 00:36:09,786
So we'll probably think of it as a second wave, but really it is what it's just adding
fuel to the fire.

399
00:36:09,786 --> 00:36:12,686
I think it's an accelerant of what's going on now.

400
00:36:12,686 --> 00:36:15,628
ah Again, strictly from an infrastructure perspective.

401
00:36:15,628 --> 00:36:26,338
ah And so, yeah, I think it's going to start in a few years and we're talking, we could be
talking about another decade or two of significant infrastructure growth ah and data

402
00:36:26,338 --> 00:36:41,190
centers and digital infrastructure, internet infrastructure, whatever term you want to
throw on it, becoming just one of the just kind of major industries.

403
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,402
or that we think about, right?

404
00:36:43,402 --> 00:36:52,238
Healthcare, ah financial services, something that's just kind of core to everybody's ah
life.

405
00:36:52,238 --> 00:36:57,460
And if you just kind of look, I think I'll leave you with this.

406
00:36:57,460 --> 00:37:01,985
If you kind of look at what's happening in the US in the Midwest, right?

407
00:37:01,985 --> 00:37:07,629
Where a lot of data centers are taking over kind of decommissioned or abandoned.

408
00:37:07,629 --> 00:37:10,150
ah

409
00:37:11,468 --> 00:37:15,020
facilities from the manufacturing era, right?

410
00:37:15,020 --> 00:37:19,382
It's kind of a great snapshot and a micro-osm of what's happening.

411
00:37:19,382 --> 00:37:30,086
Traditional industries going by the, you know, retiring or moving to other parts of the
world, being replaced by digital infrastructure, data centers that, you know, that house

412
00:37:30,086 --> 00:37:37,670
the servers that produce the digital content and applications workload that we all use and
live with every day that you access through your phone.

413
00:37:37,670 --> 00:37:39,110
um

414
00:37:39,380 --> 00:37:47,832
I've always thought of that, you know, and the other one would be there in Canada and the
US uh newspaper printing presses.

415
00:37:48,412 --> 00:37:50,953
Now our data centers, right, been converted.

416
00:37:50,953 --> 00:37:53,414
You know, we don't really consume newspapers anymore.

417
00:37:53,414 --> 00:37:57,005
ah But where do we consume our news on websites?

418
00:37:57,005 --> 00:37:58,995
Where are those websites on your phone?

419
00:37:58,995 --> 00:37:59,855
Yes.

420
00:37:59,856 --> 00:38:02,910
But where are they accessed through servers that sit in data centers?

421
00:38:02,910 --> 00:38:06,377
And so you kind of see that old world transition to the new.

422
00:38:06,377 --> 00:38:09,484
So if you think of things in those terms,

423
00:38:09,484 --> 00:38:17,811
And these are inexorable, know, these things are in motion and there's nothing that's
going to stop it ah short of the world vaporizing.

424
00:38:17,811 --> 00:38:29,771
So, ah but if you think of it in those terms, ah you can see how these waves or you can
kind of, I think, come to see that these waves are significant.

425
00:38:29,771 --> 00:38:35,316
They are, you know, going to happen over a long period of time.

426
00:38:35,316 --> 00:38:38,262
I don't think it's hyperbole when people say this.

427
00:38:38,262 --> 00:38:43,304
We had the Industrial Revolution in the late 1800s.

428
00:38:43,664 --> 00:38:49,477
I don't necessarily think it's hyperbole to say that that's what we're undergoing, which
is a complete revolution.

429
00:38:49,477 --> 00:38:52,408
It's just the digital infrastructure revolution.

430
00:38:52,408 --> 00:39:01,872
It's a transition from economies based on industry, on commodities, on physical things to
digital ah and internet-based.

431
00:39:01,872 --> 00:39:05,794
um And if you believe that and if you see that that's

432
00:39:05,794 --> 00:39:16,720
And if you believe that's going to continue, it becomes much more reasonable to think that
what's happening around data centers and cloud and servers, compute infrastructure is on a

433
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:18,160
similar path.

434
00:39:18,201 --> 00:39:21,742
And then think about, yeah, it's only been happening for 20 odd years.

435
00:39:22,623 --> 00:39:27,216
Imagine what, you know, if it's not going to slow down, what could happen in the next 20,
25 years?

436
00:39:27,216 --> 00:39:33,489
So that's why I'm optimistic and why I'm still working in this space.

437
00:39:33,489 --> 00:39:34,930
I need employment.

438
00:39:35,006 --> 00:39:46,952
Yes, speaking of that, my last question is if there's young people out there that are
looking at what am I going to do with my life, right?

439
00:39:46,952 --> 00:40:00,378
The unemployment is so high for college graduates right now, or there's even people in
their midlife career cycle that are thinking, what am I going to do?

440
00:40:00,378 --> 00:40:02,509
Is my job going to be replaced by AI?

441
00:40:02,509 --> 00:40:03,649
What should I do next?

442
00:40:03,649 --> 00:40:05,300
What should I be training for?

443
00:40:05,300 --> 00:40:08,283
What are the opportunities in the space, Phil?

444
00:40:08,283 --> 00:40:11,742
Do you see a few that you can talk about for people?

445
00:40:11,742 --> 00:40:12,993
Oh, absolutely.

446
00:40:12,993 --> 00:40:23,070
mean, I speak with operating companies all the time and a challenge they have ah is
finding people with, you know, industry or, you know, subject matter, knowledge,

447
00:40:23,070 --> 00:40:24,431
experience, expertise.

448
00:40:24,431 --> 00:40:33,997
ah It is not a common skill set to say, you know, to say, Hey, I worked in cloud or data
center or hyperscale, or I understand, you know, how this industry works or I've done it

449
00:40:33,997 --> 00:40:34,408
before.

450
00:40:34,408 --> 00:40:39,901
That's not something easily found ah at the executive level, at the mid management level.

451
00:40:39,901 --> 00:40:41,122
uh

452
00:40:41,122 --> 00:40:54,251
You know, so I think that there are, there's, you know, room for people who understand the
space, who can analyze it, who can think about it critically and creatively to solve some

453
00:40:54,251 --> 00:40:54,801
of these problems.

454
00:40:54,801 --> 00:40:58,514
So we were ultimately, infrastructure is about solving problems.

455
00:40:58,514 --> 00:41:08,841
So the, whether you're coming out of school, whether you're mid-career, if you're good at
solving problems or enjoy solving problems, looking at things from an analytical lens and

456
00:41:08,841 --> 00:41:10,782
perhaps thinking a bit out of the box.

457
00:41:10,938 --> 00:41:18,181
There's tons of opportunity and upside in a space that's built on being able to solve
problems that are not kind of easily visible.

458
00:41:18,181 --> 00:41:21,983
So that's what I would say is those kinds of minds.

459
00:41:22,463 --> 00:41:24,634
You can learn the space pretty quickly, right?

460
00:41:24,634 --> 00:41:32,087
It's, you know, the building blocks and the ABCs of the space wouldn't be intimidated or
scared if you're a young person listening coming out of school.

461
00:41:32,087 --> 00:41:38,210
uh No, explore it, take a look at it, and you can apply skills that you have.

462
00:41:38,210 --> 00:41:43,332
built throughout your life, your education, your career to this point, all can translate.

463
00:41:43,332 --> 00:41:59,839
ah And like I said, if you're struggling, like you mentioned, Kerry, you're always looking
for openings, shortages, of, where can I, my expertise or be, where is there scarcity?

464
00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:08,232
I think you can find, I think this space there is definitely a level of scarcity that
people may be able to exploit further.

465
00:42:08,974 --> 00:42:10,694
for their own gain.

466
00:42:11,348 --> 00:42:13,184
You are right about that.

467
00:42:13,184 --> 00:42:17,094
How can we reach structured research?

468
00:42:17,094 --> 00:42:18,376
Your website.

469
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:25,473
Yep, uh sorry, we have two, so we have a website and an event site for our summit.

470
00:42:25,533 --> 00:42:36,727
But if you go to our website, structureresearch.io, so just as it sounds,
structureresearch.io, ah and there's a link to the event site there, but the event site

471
00:42:36,727 --> 00:42:41,960
URL, sorry that it's long, is infrastructuresummit.io.

472
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:47,992
We like to use the .io, so yeah, that's structureresearch.io and infrastructuresummit.

473
00:42:47,992 --> 00:42:48,603
dot i-o.

474
00:42:48,603 --> 00:42:51,909
No fancy spellings, we're short, just the words.

475
00:42:52,318 --> 00:42:59,693
And I think it's important that we all attend these events and these conferences because
things are changing so rapidly.

476
00:42:59,693 --> 00:43:03,066
So I will for sure see you there in October.

477
00:43:03,066 --> 00:43:05,417
And Phil, thank you so much for coming on.

478
00:43:05,417 --> 00:43:07,009
This has been educational.

479
00:43:07,009 --> 00:43:11,192
I just really love learning from you.

480
00:43:11,192 --> 00:43:15,356
uh And I will learn more in October.

481
00:43:15,356 --> 00:43:16,515
I can't wait.

482
00:43:19,097 --> 00:43:20,138
Take care.

483
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:22,887
You too.

484
00:43:23,328 --> 00:43:26,742
so that was awesome awesome awesome stop