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I'm Adam Maness.

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And I'm Peter Martin.

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And you're listening to the "You'll Hear It" podcast.

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Music celebrated and explored.

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Celebrating today, Peter, that's a great adjective because we are

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celebrating

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the great Sonny Rollins today.

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Yes.

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Whom we lost just a couple of days ago-

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Yeah

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... at the age of 95. And Peter, I'm so excited to spend this time with you, to

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spend this time with our dear listeners-

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Yeah

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... listening to and celebrating one of the great musicians in jazz.

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And, I love Sonny Rollins and his music and

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incredible musician, but incredible human being-

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Yeah

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... as well, as we'll hear in his own words.

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As far as I can tell, one of the most honest and

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direct

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musicians, improvisers, jazz musician, or probably of any type.

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When we talk about great jazz musicians that could improvise, there's a

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potential for a directness and a connection-

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Mm

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... between that performer's, that artist's

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humanity-

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Mm-hmm

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... as a person, that can then come out, in this case, from Sonny

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Rollins' horn. And, when you hear interviews, I got a chance to

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meet him and to hear him play a couple of times, but mostly just to

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hear stories from other musicians.

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Yeah.

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His music, even if you're like, "Wow, I wish I could've met him," you did meet him.

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Mm.

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If you listen to his music, you can meet him today, actually.

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Yeah.

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So, I think great artists have that ability, but I don't think anyone's ever done

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it. Plus, just an incredible player. We're going to get into that.

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Yeah.

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But, in terms of the humanity coming out through improvisation, which is

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such a difficult thing, you have to be

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technically so great. Your ears have to be-- You have to have all these things.

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And of course, Sonny was also a lifelong learner.

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Yeah.

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He always talked about that, really up until the end, apparently, but certainly in

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interviews well into his 80s, even when he was pretty much retired.

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Yeah.

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He'd been semi-retired and then fully retired for decades, actually.

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Well, we're going to talk about this a lot, but it's very evident.

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He's the avatar of sort of the humble servant of the music.

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Yes.

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He truly talked that way about

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humbling his ego to the music and putting his growth in the

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music

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above himself in a lot of ways. And there's countless examples

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on record, but even in his actions throughout his life.

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Maybe even to a fault into the extreme.

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To the point where he had several sabbaticals, where he didn't give the world

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the gift of his music because he wanted to go in solitude and

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practice.

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Well-

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When he was already good

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... but that's-

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Documented good

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... that's-

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Great

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... that's the humility.

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Yeah.

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Because he doesn't feel like, "Oh, the world's going to miss me." He's like,

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"Something doesn't feel right, and I'm going to spend some time with it, even if it

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means-

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Yeah

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... this or this."

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Yeah.

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Yeah. Just an incredible musician and a big loss

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for music

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now that he's gone. But-

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A massive loss, and I think it's always, for me, and I

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wonder for you, Adam, and for our listeners and

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viewers out there, I always have trouble

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adjusting when we lose a master like this because we're just listening, we've been

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listening, I've been listening to Sonny all week, and we've been listening,

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preparing for this today.

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Yeah.

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And so as soon as you start to hear him, these beloved records, and I've been

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hearing some stuff I never really heard also, which is always

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exciting. I feel like he's here.

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Yeah.

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And so there's a discordant thing to even say that we've lost him because

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we haven't lost his music. We've lost the body, the

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human from this world. But what a legacy.

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What a gift. It's going to go on for hundreds of years, thousands of years.

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I think that this is going to be some of the most interesting

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documented improvisation. A true jazz

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improviser. In fact, remember we used to have the-- Did you ever have encyclopedias

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when you were growing up?

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Yeah, of course.

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Buy one at a time at the Schnucks?

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Yeah.

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Okay, good.

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Yeah. And we didn't have a lot of money, so we only got to C, so.

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You only got to C. Well, if you got to J or I for jazz improviser,

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and you only had to pick one picture, you could put Sonny Rollins.

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I'd be fine with that.

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I think you're absolutely right. Direct connection from his heart to the listener.

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Yeah.

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It's like he's talking to you, which is why I'm so glad you mentioned we still have

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him through-

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Yeah

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... this music. You can hear him talk to you.

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Let's-

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I think one other thing, just to frame this today, is let's remember, Sonny

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Rollins passed away, as we said, just this week, 2026.

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He was born in 1930.

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Yeah.

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Okay?

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Yeah.

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Now, I know you're not big on math-

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Mm-hmm

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... but that was a long time ago.

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Yeah.

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I'm not even going to make you add that up.

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Yeah.

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But Sonny Rollins stood, and I'm not saying he's the last of

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the giants, but we're getting close, that stood firmly

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as, not even as a youth, but as a young player in the bebop, like the beginnings of

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bebop, really.

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Yeah.

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Connecting, playing with Charlie Parker, learning right at the feet.

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I think Charlie Parker was 10 years older than him.

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That's right.

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So not even a whole generation. Miles was, well, it's his 100th birthday this year,

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so five-

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Mm-hmm

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... ish years.

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So Sonny was right. But the next generations

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after that, of course, that we have all these great masters is wonderful, but Sonny

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is a direct link and a connection.

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He's-

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And we're going to hear that in his music

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... he's a bridge.

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Yeah.

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One of his most famous albums is called "The Bridge," but he-

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Yeah

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... is a bridge in a lot of ways.

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He's a bridge to early, and the

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first time I got to hear him play live was in 1986 in Columbia, Missouri, concert.

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One of the first great jazz concerts I'd ever seen.

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And,

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he's a bebop player. He always-

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Yeah.

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I'm going to die on that hill.

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Well, let's listen to some music-

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Yeah

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... because you mentioned that he was 95. He lived this big, grand life.

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Yeah.

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Born in 1930. The first track we're going to listen to, one of the very first

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recordings he ever made, is with J. J. Johnson, trombonist J. J. Johnson.

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Features John Lewis on piano, Gene Ramey on bass, and Shadow Wilson on the drums.

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Whoo.

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And if you were a person who was born when this recording session happened,

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which was May 11, 1949-

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I was not. Why are you looking at me?

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... you'd be 73 years old today.

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Right.

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And that's when Sonny Rollins started his career.

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This is "Autobahn." This is an original.

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Sonny?

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Sonny tune.

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I believe he's 18 years old here.

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Yeah. That's what I'm saying, steeped in bebop.

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Yeah, you can hear it.

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You can hear JJ.

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You hear that Bird influence already on that bridge, right?

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For sure.

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Boom.

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Already has that big breathy sound.

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Yeah.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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The resonance.

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Yeah.

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Not super breathy, like-

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No

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... Stan Getz or something.

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No.

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But there's some kind of whisper happening in

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the tone.

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Man, what a-

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Yeah.

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So, Charlie Parker famously, hugely influenced on

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everybody-

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Yeah

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... with what he did. Horn players in particular, but pianists, everything.

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He changed the game. But, I think for saxophone players, we've heard

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stories, and when we lost Lou Donaldson, talk about another connection to this

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period, just a couple of years ago.

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The saxophonists that were coming up that were five years, 10, right

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behind Charlie Parker, you pretty much either copied him or you

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quit.

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Yeah.

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If you were talented and you were thinking about making music as your

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life, we've heard this over and over again from people,

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great musicians. He was that

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masterful and revolutionary at the same time.

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So, I think what you're hearing on this already, Sonny Rollins

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had imitated and learned. So, he

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knew Charlie Parker's stuff, but you're already hearing his little bit of a take

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on it, right?

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Mm.

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He didn't get intimidated, although he did go and shed on his own a couple of times

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for some years. Maybe that was part of it.

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But just to say that he came at a time, and look, there's always a little bit of

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luck with the calendar-

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Mm-hmm

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... for some of these super talented masters that come along

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just once a generation or 100 years or whatever.

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But that was a little bit of serendipity that Charlie Parker was setting the

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bar at an all-time high for saxophone and for

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revolutionizing the music that was still very much influenced by

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what was coming out of New Orleans and Louis Armstrong.

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It was a few decades, but that's still, Duke Ellington set the bar.

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Yeah.

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So, when you talk about bebop, you're talking about Charlie Parker, of course,

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Thelonious Monk, Dizzy Gillespie, Max Roach, and all these.

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Sonny Rollins is coming right into that.

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Clifford Brown, we're going to get to that.

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Well, we're about to land on Clifford Brown here.

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It's a little bit of sink or swim, and Sonny swam.

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So, we mentioned that Sonny's this sort of bridge generation between

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Bird and Herbie or-

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Bird. I like that.

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But you know who else was born in 1930, was Clifford

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Brown.

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Oh, was he the same?

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So, yeah, it's possible that without-

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Yeah

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... some tragic circumstances, we could've had Clifford Brown this whole time.

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And Clifford Brown died, I believe, 1956.

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'56, yeah.

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So, think about that.

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Is that 75 years ago?

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Yeah. No, that's 70 years ago.

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70 years ago, right.

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Yeah. So,

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right before he died,

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Sonny recorded an album called Sonny Rollins Plus Four.

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Yeah.

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And this is with Clifford Brown, Max Roach, Richie Powell on piano, who would also

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pass away in that car accident, and George Morrow.

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This is "Pent-Up House."

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Ooh.

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Oh.

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It's such a great guy.

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This is Sonny's tune, too.

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This is Sonny's tune, "Pent-Up House." But I do consider him and Clifford

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Brown-

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Yeah

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... the same generation, simpatico-

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Yes

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... in the sound and the approach to the language.

262
00:10:32.888 --> 00:10:33.937
And two players that-

263
00:10:33.937 --> 00:10:35.608
It's different than Dizzy and Bird-

264
00:10:35.638 --> 00:10:35.888
It is

265
00:10:35.898 --> 00:10:36.138
... you know?

266
00:10:36.308 --> 00:10:39.208
But they were super influenced by them.

267
00:10:42.168 --> 00:10:42.848
Oh, Clifford.

268
00:10:46.108 --> 00:10:49.908
Super influenced, of course, by Bird and Dizzy, but they were two that didn't

269
00:10:50.328 --> 00:10:50.608
shrink-

270
00:10:51.468 --> 00:10:51.688
And they-

271
00:10:51.718 --> 00:10:52.128
... under that.

272
00:10:52.688 --> 00:10:56.508
And just practically, similar

273
00:10:56.528 --> 00:10:57.108
eighth notes.

274
00:10:57.188 --> 00:10:57.488
Yeah.

275
00:10:57.868 --> 00:10:58.508
The language-

276
00:10:58.528 --> 00:10:58.587
Yeah

277
00:10:58.708 --> 00:11:00.388
... rhythmically feels very similar.

278
00:11:00.878 --> 00:11:03.448
Yeah. A very stylized approach to how to swing. Right?

279
00:11:03.518 --> 00:11:04.008
Yeah, exactly.

280
00:11:04.077 --> 00:11:07.968
Yeah. You even hear that from this, from the earlier 18-year-old

281
00:11:08.068 --> 00:11:11.008
Sonny, because he's probably 25 or something by this time.

282
00:11:11.088 --> 00:11:11.308
Yeah.

283
00:11:14.688 --> 00:11:18.618
And this is one of the great bebop, post-bop, whatever you want

284
00:11:18.648 --> 00:11:21.088
to call it, jazz standards. It's not played, I mean-

285
00:11:21.128 --> 00:11:21.138
"Pent-Up House"

286
00:11:21.138 --> 00:11:23.708
... for certain periods, it's played a lot. So, this is the beginning.

287
00:11:23.738 --> 00:11:27.728
We're going to talk about this. Sonny, he's definitely known for

288
00:11:27.968 --> 00:11:29.898
some of his compositions, of course, "St.

289
00:11:30.068 --> 00:11:32.428
Thomas" being the most famous, but he had these great tunes.

290
00:11:32.738 --> 00:11:33.587
"Valse Hot."

291
00:11:33.628 --> 00:11:34.358
Yeah, that's another one on this.

292
00:11:34.368 --> 00:11:34.808
We have that.

293
00:11:40.048 --> 00:11:41.647
Max Roach.

294
00:11:45.628 --> 00:11:47.088
I remember when I first heard this, I was like

295
00:11:49.468 --> 00:11:50.508
"Oh,

296
00:11:52.048 --> 00:11:52.648
this band."

297
00:11:53.488 --> 00:11:56.268
Okay, so let's just talk about this real quick.

298
00:11:56.808 --> 00:12:00.228
Sonny, 1955, he's living in Chicago.

299
00:12:00.328 --> 00:12:00.468
Yeah.

300
00:12:01.688 --> 00:12:05.668
He had come from his recovery, I think, within a year

301
00:12:05.708 --> 00:12:06.748
or something in Kentucky.

302
00:12:06.788 --> 00:12:06.798
Kicking drugs.

303
00:12:06.808 --> 00:12:06.988
Yeah.

304
00:12:07.048 --> 00:12:07.168
Yeah.

305
00:12:07.558 --> 00:12:11.278
And is there working as a janitor, shedding like crazy,

306
00:12:11.708 --> 00:12:15.328
but kind of plotting out the next step, and he had a chance to sit in

307
00:12:15.408 --> 00:12:18.728
with Clifford Brown at a club in Hyde Park,

308
00:12:18.808 --> 00:12:20.928
shout out South Side Chicago.

309
00:12:20.968 --> 00:12:21.108
Mm.

310
00:12:21.588 --> 00:12:24.828
And Harold Land either couldn't make the gig or ended up having to go back

311
00:12:25.708 --> 00:12:26.968
to, he was from California, from LA.

312
00:12:27.228 --> 00:12:27.408
Mm-hmm.

313
00:12:27.548 --> 00:12:30.428
Something with his family. And so, they needed a saxophone player.

314
00:12:30.448 --> 00:12:33.327
But at that time, this was a very hot quintet.

315
00:12:33.388 --> 00:12:33.858
Oh, yeah.

316
00:12:33.888 --> 00:12:37.768
Max Roach, and there was a lot of buzz around him in Down Beat polls and all

317
00:12:37.808 --> 00:12:39.868
this kind of stuff. Some great recordings before this.

318
00:12:39.908 --> 00:12:42.388
Richie Powell on piano, I think it was George Morrow-

319
00:12:42.468 --> 00:12:42.808
That's right

320
00:12:42.948 --> 00:12:43.358
... on bass.

321
00:12:43.408 --> 00:12:43.618
That's right.

322
00:12:43.708 --> 00:12:45.668
Of course, Max. And it's co-led by Max Roach-

323
00:12:45.828 --> 00:12:46.048
Yeah

324
00:12:46.068 --> 00:12:46.928
... and Clifford Brown.

325
00:12:48.408 --> 00:12:51.988
And Miles was doing some stuff, but he was a little bit like, "Damn, that's a

326
00:12:52.028 --> 00:12:52.758
good-ass group." You know?

327
00:12:52.768 --> 00:12:56.108
That's right. Well, and they made these two albums, one under Sonny's name.

328
00:12:56.318 --> 00:12:56.318
Right.

329
00:12:56.327 --> 00:12:57.658
"Sonny Rollins Plus Four" with that quintet.

330
00:12:57.658 --> 00:12:58.908
Right, which is the exact same quintet.

331
00:12:59.008 --> 00:12:59.388
Exact same.

332
00:12:59.468 --> 00:12:59.478
Yeah.

333
00:12:59.478 --> 00:13:02.574
And I think a couple of weeksOr later or before-

334
00:13:02.604 --> 00:13:03.544
Yeah, within the same month

335
00:13:03.584 --> 00:13:04.584
... they made this album.

336
00:13:05.104 --> 00:13:05.224
Ah.

337
00:13:06.064 --> 00:13:08.264
Clifford Brown and Max Roach at Basin Street.

338
00:13:08.384 --> 00:13:12.144
Man, this is my favorite Clifford Brown, Max Roach of all time.

339
00:13:12.204 --> 00:13:13.204
This is a great album.

340
00:13:13.244 --> 00:13:14.304
MRC Records.

341
00:13:14.404 --> 00:13:15.264
"I'll Remember April."

342
00:13:15.964 --> 00:13:16.754
The sound on it.

343
00:13:18.404 --> 00:13:19.044
Richie Powell.

344
00:13:22.424 --> 00:13:22.964
Richie Powell.

345
00:13:23.124 --> 00:13:24.104
Richie Powell, Bud Powell's brother.

346
00:13:24.204 --> 00:13:25.104
Yeah, younger brother.

347
00:13:27.544 --> 00:13:28.844
Sonny, the way he comes in.

348
00:13:34.324 --> 00:13:35.184
Was this Van Gelder?

349
00:13:36.284 --> 00:13:37.204
At Basin Street?

350
00:13:37.264 --> 00:13:38.004
Um.

351
00:13:38.104 --> 00:13:38.664
I think it was.

352
00:13:38.884 --> 00:13:38.964
No.

353
00:13:39.104 --> 00:13:39.374
It might not have been.

354
00:13:39.374 --> 00:13:39.824
Bob Shad.

355
00:13:43.064 --> 00:13:45.284
So this is the iconic arrangement of this song.

356
00:13:45.504 --> 00:13:45.544
Yeah.

357
00:13:45.604 --> 00:13:47.444
All of these arrangements on this album are by Richie Powell, by the way.

358
00:13:47.504 --> 00:13:48.374
Just want to shout out Richie Powell.

359
00:13:48.384 --> 00:13:48.724
Oh, wow.

360
00:13:48.824 --> 00:13:50.544
So this thing that everybody plays at jam sessions?

361
00:13:50.624 --> 00:13:50.783
Oh.

362
00:13:50.824 --> 00:13:51.184
Richie Powell.

363
00:13:51.714 --> 00:13:53.744
Man, this is kind of the template kind of record.

364
00:13:53.884 --> 00:13:54.124
For sure.

365
00:13:54.624 --> 00:13:56.504
And we forget how much of a big part Sonny is.

366
00:13:56.604 --> 00:13:58.624
So Sonny only played with the quintet for like-

367
00:13:59.104 --> 00:13:59.673
A couple of months, right?

368
00:13:59.724 --> 00:14:00.484
Six or eight months.

369
00:14:00.534 --> 00:14:00.534
Yeah.

370
00:14:00.544 --> 00:14:04.464
Because June, we're going to talk about what Sonny did then, but tragically,

371
00:14:04.504 --> 00:14:07.714
Clifford Brown and Richie Powell, and Richie Powell's wife,

372
00:14:08.584 --> 00:14:12.404
Nancy, all perished in a car accident

373
00:14:12.544 --> 00:14:13.484
driving between Philly and

374
00:14:14.684 --> 00:14:15.664
Wilmington. And

375
00:14:16.624 --> 00:14:20.224
so, I think that Sonny Rollins, and he talked about this,

376
00:14:20.844 --> 00:14:24.404
this was very much, you talk about the Charlie Parker influence on him setting the

377
00:14:24.424 --> 00:14:27.264
bar high in terms of QA, like we talk about Motown-

378
00:14:27.274 --> 00:14:27.584
Mm-hmm

379
00:14:27.624 --> 00:14:29.034
... quality assurance. Sonny was

380
00:14:30.524 --> 00:14:34.034
probably the most fierce QA guy in jazz that-

381
00:14:34.034 --> 00:14:34.034
Mm

382
00:14:34.034 --> 00:14:37.304
... I've ever heard of. Not only in the output of what he played, but the standard

383
00:14:37.344 --> 00:14:40.424
with which he held himself. And a lot of these musicians at this time, that was a

384
00:14:40.524 --> 00:14:42.944
thing, to be like, "You have to have your stuff together. You got to know this.

385
00:14:43.004 --> 00:14:44.804
You don't come half-stepping," all that stuff.

386
00:14:45.164 --> 00:14:48.804
But Sonny was on Mount Rushmore, or whatever's above Mount

387
00:14:48.824 --> 00:14:52.554
Rushmore of QA. And so when he hooked up with Clifford Brown, even though it was

388
00:14:52.604 --> 00:14:56.344
for a short time, Clifford Brown is the king of perfection.

389
00:14:56.444 --> 00:14:57.084
The technique-

390
00:14:57.244 --> 00:14:57.344
Yeah

391
00:14:57.424 --> 00:14:58.064
... the feel-

392
00:14:58.304 --> 00:14:58.314
Yeah

393
00:14:58.314 --> 00:15:01.084
... the swing, the intimidation of other trumpet players.

394
00:15:01.504 --> 00:15:04.664
Not for anything personal, just because of the way he played.

395
00:15:04.724 --> 00:15:08.644
So, I think, again, serendipity, but also being

396
00:15:08.744 --> 00:15:11.634
ready, beyond ready, when he came into that situation.

397
00:15:12.384 --> 00:15:16.244
And then that really set him up, even though this tragedy of Clifford being gone,

398
00:15:16.324 --> 00:15:18.744
he was already on his way to doing his own thing.

399
00:15:18.784 --> 00:15:20.084
So that was already kind of planned.

400
00:15:20.124 --> 00:15:21.914
And those next, '56, '57, '58-

401
00:15:21.964 --> 00:15:23.354
Well, it's about to explode here

402
00:15:23.354 --> 00:15:24.184
He's about to go on a run.

403
00:15:24.324 --> 00:15:28.244
Yeah. And actually a lot of what we're about to listen to, or at least a good

404
00:15:28.304 --> 00:15:32.254
chunk of it, was recorded before, in '53, '54, '55, some of these things.

405
00:15:32.304 --> 00:15:32.414
Right.

406
00:15:32.704 --> 00:15:35.194
All released, though, '56, '57, '58.

407
00:15:35.404 --> 00:15:36.394
And shout-out to all these

408
00:15:37.404 --> 00:15:39.584
great jazz records, Prestige, Contemporary-

409
00:15:39.664 --> 00:15:40.004
Oh, yeah

410
00:15:40.024 --> 00:15:40.504
... MRC.

411
00:15:40.654 --> 00:15:40.944
The labels. Yeah.

412
00:15:41.664 --> 00:15:44.053
Not shout-out to the small amount of money you were paying the artists, but

413
00:15:44.104 --> 00:15:47.144
shout-out that you didn't make them exclusive contracts.

414
00:15:47.204 --> 00:15:48.344
You couldn't, because you weren't paying enough.

415
00:15:48.584 --> 00:15:48.684
Yeah.

416
00:15:48.764 --> 00:15:50.084
But Blue Note kind of was.

417
00:15:50.164 --> 00:15:52.034
But you'll see all these mixes of labels these guys have.

418
00:15:52.044 --> 00:15:56.004
But it enabled us to be able to have, I think he made 12 records in '56 and

419
00:15:56.014 --> 00:15:56.604
'57.

420
00:15:56.684 --> 00:15:57.244
Insane.

421
00:15:57.564 --> 00:15:59.074
And not just filler records.

422
00:15:59.184 --> 00:16:00.284
All bangers.

423
00:16:00.364 --> 00:16:01.794
And with different bands-

424
00:16:01.824 --> 00:16:01.833
Yeah

425
00:16:01.833 --> 00:16:02.924
... and different configurations.

426
00:16:02.984 --> 00:16:06.844
Well, here's one that was released in '56 but recorded in '54.

427
00:16:06.924 --> 00:16:09.944
This is Miles Davis' album, and this is a

428
00:16:11.124 --> 00:16:13.604
classic album. This is a top 20 all-time jazz album.

429
00:16:13.614 --> 00:16:13.614
Yeah.

430
00:16:13.644 --> 00:16:16.584
It's called Bags Groove, features Sonny Rollins, Milt Jackson, Thelonious Monk,

431
00:16:16.604 --> 00:16:18.414
Horace Silver, Percy Heath, and Kenny Clarke.

432
00:16:18.444 --> 00:16:19.104
This is-

433
00:16:19.144 --> 00:16:19.154
Percy H-

434
00:16:19.154 --> 00:16:21.784
... Sonny's original composition, "Oleo."

435
00:16:21.824 --> 00:16:23.854
Which is now, by the way, a jam session standard for rhythm changes.

436
00:16:23.864 --> 00:16:27.854
Yeah. Wait, is Sonny kind of, was he under the

437
00:16:27.924 --> 00:16:31.684
radar, one of the greatest, up there with Monk and Duke Ellington for

438
00:16:31.704 --> 00:16:32.304
jazz standards?

439
00:16:32.404 --> 00:16:32.684
Correct.

440
00:16:32.904 --> 00:16:34.624
Okay. Why do we never talk about that?

441
00:16:35.644 --> 00:16:37.404
I don't know.

442
00:16:37.844 --> 00:16:38.583
He's correct.

443
00:16:40.864 --> 00:16:43.524
Oh, wait, he played the melody correctly. Awesome.

444
00:16:43.584 --> 00:16:45.164
Well, yeah. He's doing his Sonny thing.

445
00:16:49.204 --> 00:16:50.324
Oh, man, his

446
00:16:52.324 --> 00:16:53.064
phrasing.

447
00:17:04.124 --> 00:17:05.364
Man, his intonation.

448
00:17:08.644 --> 00:17:09.065
Oh.

449
00:17:11.444 --> 00:17:14.545
This is Horace Silver, Percy Heath, and Kenny Clarke on the rhythm section.

450
00:17:15.384 --> 00:17:18.234
Man, Percy Heath is killing on this album.

451
00:17:18.295 --> 00:17:19.104
Bass players,

452
00:17:20.285 --> 00:17:22.545
transcribe Percy Heath all over this record.

453
00:17:23.304 --> 00:17:24.624
Some of the most perfect bass lines.

454
00:17:24.684 --> 00:17:25.874
He's a part of Miles'

455
00:17:26.684 --> 00:17:28.524
sort of ascension during this time.

456
00:17:28.535 --> 00:17:28.684
Yeah.

457
00:17:28.744 --> 00:17:32.454
He's in that band. Miles writes a lot about Sonny in his autobiography, but he also

458
00:17:32.484 --> 00:17:36.384
starts making his own music. This is another jam session standard from his

459
00:17:36.444 --> 00:17:39.824
album Tenor Madness. This is the title track, Tenor Madness, featuring John

460
00:17:39.864 --> 00:17:41.624
Coltrane. Ever heard of it?

461
00:17:56.984 --> 00:17:58.084
Now we're getting to Van Gelder.

462
00:17:58.684 --> 00:17:58.964
Right.

463
00:18:00.324 --> 00:18:00.464
Woo.

464
00:18:00.484 --> 00:18:01.364
Trane.

465
00:18:09.884 --> 00:18:10.804
And it's Sonny's album.

466
00:18:10.884 --> 00:18:10.914
I know.

467
00:18:10.914 --> 00:18:12.864
This is the first track, and he has-

468
00:18:12.914 --> 00:18:13.334
And he gives it to Trane

469
00:18:13.344 --> 00:18:14.244
... he gives it to Trane.

470
00:18:14.724 --> 00:18:16.604
I think it's the only time they ever recorded together

471
00:18:17.464 --> 00:18:18.044
in the studio.

472
00:18:18.144 --> 00:18:20.384
These are two men, really-

473
00:18:20.784 --> 00:18:21.014
Yeah, they're both-

474
00:18:21.014 --> 00:18:22.104
... starting their prime.

475
00:18:22.164 --> 00:18:22.324
Right.

476
00:18:22.444 --> 00:18:22.624
Yeah.

477
00:18:24.684 --> 00:18:27.464
Red Garland, Paul Chambers, Philly Joe Jones. Is that okay with you?

478
00:18:27.724 --> 00:18:27.844
Yeah.

479
00:18:28.044 --> 00:18:28.224
Yeah.

480
00:18:28.284 --> 00:18:28.724
Definitely.

481
00:18:29.784 --> 00:18:30.844
Is this Van Gelder Studios?

482
00:18:31.324 --> 00:18:32.864
I believe it is.

483
00:18:34.544 --> 00:18:35.634
From the bass, I'm like, it's got to be.

484
00:18:35.634 --> 00:18:36.204
Yeah, Van Gelder.

485
00:18:36.824 --> 00:18:40.334
And this was during this period. This wasn't even when he was in Englewood, in

486
00:18:40.624 --> 00:18:41.424
what's still there.

487
00:18:41.464 --> 00:18:42.064
It's, like, at his house.

488
00:18:42.184 --> 00:18:44.104
It was at his parents' house. In the living room.

489
00:18:44.644 --> 00:18:45.724
Produced by Bob Weinstock.

490
00:18:50.244 --> 00:18:51.524
Let's skip ahead a little bit here.

491
00:18:53.764 --> 00:18:54.264
Yeah. Woo.

492
00:18:56.064 --> 00:18:56.584
There's Sonny.

493
00:18:56.984 --> 00:18:57.304
Yeah.

494
00:19:01.544 --> 00:19:02.204
Oh, Philly

495
00:19:02.274 --> 00:19:17.514
JoeMan,

496
00:19:17.614 --> 00:19:20.414
Sonny's mastery of the different registers

497
00:19:21.614 --> 00:19:24.674
of the tenor saxophone, unmatched, even by Trane.

498
00:19:25.194 --> 00:19:25.414
Yeah.

499
00:19:25.694 --> 00:19:26.053
Oh, man.

500
00:19:26.114 --> 00:19:26.734
What a sound.

501
00:19:26.824 --> 00:19:29.194
He understood that instrument, right?

502
00:19:30.254 --> 00:19:31.094
Another album-

503
00:19:31.314 --> 00:19:32.304
I mean, John Coltrane is good, of course

504
00:19:32.304 --> 00:19:36.214
... that's come out in 1956, also recorded in '54, just

505
00:19:36.274 --> 00:19:40.214
like Bag's Groove. This is an album called Moving

506
00:19:40.314 --> 00:19:42.554
Out, Sonny Rollins with Thelonious Monk-

507
00:19:42.594 --> 00:19:43.404
Oh, I love this record

508
00:19:43.404 --> 00:19:45.294
... and Kenny Dorham. This is More Than You Know.

509
00:20:02.074 --> 00:20:05.254
Pianist is in the penalty box for the intro for some reason.

510
00:20:05.734 --> 00:20:07.093
I like it. I'm here for it.

511
00:20:12.254 --> 00:20:12.714
Oh.

512
00:20:13.674 --> 00:20:15.304
Man, can we listen to this?

513
00:20:15.514 --> 00:20:17.274
That's Tommy Potter on the bass, by the way.

514
00:20:17.354 --> 00:20:17.764
Wait, wait. Sorry.

515
00:20:17.774 --> 00:20:18.473
What are you doing?

516
00:20:22.304 --> 00:20:24.534
I love the way Monk plays on this. Oh.

517
00:20:25.954 --> 00:20:26.274
Sonny.

518
00:20:33.094 --> 00:20:35.174
You're definitely getting that Coleman Hawkins influence we needed.

519
00:20:35.204 --> 00:20:36.254
We should've talked about him.

520
00:20:41.954 --> 00:20:42.413
Oh.

521
00:20:46.234 --> 00:20:47.234
Hey, this is an interesting album.

522
00:20:47.294 --> 00:20:48.714
This is the last track-

523
00:20:49.234 --> 00:20:49.244
Yeah

524
00:20:49.244 --> 00:20:53.054
... on the album, and this is the only track that has

525
00:20:54.014 --> 00:20:55.894
Monk, Tommy Potter, and Art Taylor.

526
00:20:56.014 --> 00:20:56.554
Everything else-

527
00:20:57.014 --> 00:20:57.024
Oh, yeah

528
00:20:57.024 --> 00:20:59.574
... is Kenny Dorham, Elmo Hope, Percy Heath, and Art Blakey.

529
00:20:59.774 --> 00:21:02.693
Right. And this is a great record. Yeah, it's a funny little add-on thing.

530
00:21:03.074 --> 00:21:06.934
There's some other great stuff. I think it's Monk's Misterioso.

531
00:21:07.144 --> 00:21:08.714
There's a couple of really good Monk albums-

532
00:21:08.934 --> 00:21:09.514
Well, we've got some-

533
00:21:09.534 --> 00:21:09.644
... with Sonny, too

534
00:21:09.644 --> 00:21:10.324
... queued up here because-

535
00:21:10.334 --> 00:21:10.584
Oh, okay, good

536
00:21:10.584 --> 00:21:11.634
... that's such a good relationship.

537
00:21:11.844 --> 00:21:11.844
Yeah.

538
00:21:11.854 --> 00:21:15.314
There is an album called Thelonious Monk and Sonny Rollins, so these two brilliant

539
00:21:15.394 --> 00:21:17.674
masters get together three times.

540
00:21:17.754 --> 00:21:17.914
Yeah.

541
00:21:18.234 --> 00:21:20.254
A couple of great examples here. This is from that,

542
00:21:20.634 --> 00:21:24.514
1957 is when it was released, but again, recorded in

543
00:21:24.524 --> 00:21:27.814
'53 and a little bit in '54. This is The Way You Look Tonight.

544
00:21:28.194 --> 00:21:28.504
Oh, yes.

545
00:21:28.504 --> 00:21:29.534
Thelonious Monk, Sonny Rollins.

546
00:21:29.574 --> 00:21:29.914
Good call.

547
00:21:31.454 --> 00:21:32.964
Okay, we've got to play that intro again. We have to play it.

548
00:21:32.994 --> 00:21:33.634
Okay. Okay.

549
00:21:33.834 --> 00:21:34.154
Sonny.

550
00:21:34.374 --> 00:21:34.574
Okay.

551
00:21:34.614 --> 00:21:35.034
Thank you.

552
00:21:35.314 --> 00:21:35.394
Yeah.

553
00:21:35.474 --> 00:21:37.254
This is one of the greatest-

554
00:21:37.414 --> 00:21:37.864
This is the s**t right here

555
00:21:37.874 --> 00:21:38.664
... intros, period.

556
00:21:38.754 --> 00:21:38.884
Yeah.

557
00:21:38.934 --> 00:21:42.374
Maybe the greatest saxophone, and it is,

558
00:21:42.554 --> 00:21:44.194
degree of difficulty-

559
00:21:44.294 --> 00:21:44.634
That is crazy

560
00:21:44.644 --> 00:21:45.204
... 11, right?

561
00:21:45.294 --> 00:21:46.153
Yeah, for sure.

562
00:21:47.454 --> 00:21:47.534
For sure.

563
00:21:47.574 --> 00:21:49.134
And the degree of joy-

564
00:21:50.254 --> 00:21:50.594
12

565
00:21:50.614 --> 00:21:50.784
... infinite.

566
00:21:50.903 --> 00:21:51.674
Yeah.

567
00:21:52.314 --> 00:21:52.343
12, right?

568
00:21:52.354 --> 00:21:52.914
Here it is again.

569
00:21:56.254 --> 00:21:56.814
Hey.

570
00:22:01.314 --> 00:22:02.534
Another Van Gelder.

571
00:22:22.194 --> 00:22:22.614
Woo.

572
00:22:23.494 --> 00:22:25.474
Tommy Potter and Art Taylor on that one.

573
00:22:25.484 --> 00:22:25.634
Yeah.

574
00:22:26.814 --> 00:22:27.954
Bass and drums respectively.

575
00:22:29.294 --> 00:22:30.094
A.T. A.T., underrated.

576
00:22:35.414 --> 00:22:35.614
For sure.

577
00:22:35.894 --> 00:22:37.414
That ride cymbal, you can tell it's A.T.

578
00:22:44.094 --> 00:22:47.444
Yeah, this is a great-- And then just the very same year, they

579
00:22:47.454 --> 00:22:51.264
release perhaps one of Monk's most famous, most celebrated

580
00:22:51.334 --> 00:22:52.004
albums and

581
00:22:52.854 --> 00:22:55.123
Sonny's a huge, huge part of this sound.

582
00:22:56.414 --> 00:22:56.974
It is

583
00:22:58.544 --> 00:22:59.254
Brilliant Corners.

584
00:22:59.534 --> 00:22:59.714
Mm.

585
00:22:59.774 --> 00:23:01.134
And this is Bemsha Swing.

586
00:23:01.254 --> 00:23:01.314
Yeah.

587
00:23:01.354 --> 00:23:02.474
Featuring the great Clark Terry.

588
00:23:02.794 --> 00:23:03.734
Great album cover, too.

589
00:23:04.734 --> 00:23:04.994
Woo.

590
00:23:13.774 --> 00:23:14.874
Tuner not called.

591
00:23:18.534 --> 00:23:19.474
Hey.

592
00:23:21.414 --> 00:23:23.294
It's on the Riverside label, Orrin Keepnews.

593
00:23:28.504 --> 00:23:28.734
Ah.

594
00:23:28.924 --> 00:23:29.473
Woo.

595
00:23:34.954 --> 00:23:38.804
Yeah, Sonny was kind of the template, Trane, too, for sure,

596
00:23:38.874 --> 00:23:40.074
during this period with Monk.

597
00:23:40.134 --> 00:23:40.414
Yeah, for sure.

598
00:23:40.434 --> 00:23:42.574
But for what would become Charlie Rouse-

599
00:23:42.654 --> 00:23:42.934
Yeah

600
00:23:43.334 --> 00:23:47.174
... influenced hugely by Sonny Rollins, but the way that he could

601
00:23:47.234 --> 00:23:49.094
play with Monk and interpret his songs.

602
00:23:49.134 --> 00:23:49.634
Woo.

603
00:23:51.504 --> 00:23:54.734
Oh. I love Clark Terry and Sonny's sound together.

604
00:23:55.784 --> 00:23:55.784
Yeah.

605
00:24:01.264 --> 00:24:02.834
Brilliant Corners, Sonny's all over it.

606
00:24:02.894 --> 00:24:02.904
Yeah.

607
00:24:02.914 --> 00:24:06.334
The title track, "Brilliant Corners," is also brilliant and definitely worth

608
00:24:07.454 --> 00:24:07.854
your time.

609
00:24:07.914 --> 00:24:11.614
You know, one thing I'm thinking about, Adam, as time has gone on and now

610
00:24:11.674 --> 00:24:14.134
we're definitely in an introspective, retrospective,

611
00:24:16.114 --> 00:24:20.074
viewing of the legacy of Sonny Rollins, I think John

612
00:24:20.134 --> 00:24:22.634
Coltrane, for a lot of people, has always,

613
00:24:24.114 --> 00:24:28.054
just all different kinds of musicians and jazz lovers, has kind of sat

614
00:24:28.114 --> 00:24:32.004
at this certain place as a tenor saxophonist,

615
00:24:32.174 --> 00:24:36.054
as the GOAT. And look, why did I use that term? That's stupid.

616
00:24:36.454 --> 00:24:36.874
I don't know.

617
00:24:36.894 --> 00:24:37.334
But because people--

618
00:24:38.174 --> 00:24:39.724
I don't know. You wished I hadn't, right?

619
00:24:39.814 --> 00:24:40.204
You said it.

620
00:24:40.214 --> 00:24:42.574
No, but I'm saying we put him on such a pedestal.

621
00:24:42.584 --> 00:24:42.584
Of course.

622
00:24:42.594 --> 00:24:43.254
We have a problem-

623
00:24:43.454 --> 00:24:44.014
I do.

624
00:24:44.054 --> 00:24:47.814
Right. Yeah. And I think partly because he

625
00:24:47.854 --> 00:24:49.954
died relatively young, 1967,

626
00:24:51.254 --> 00:24:53.774
and then Sonny was with us until just a few days ago.

627
00:24:54.194 --> 00:24:57.714
There's a certain lionization of, like we talk about Clifford Brown, and

628
00:24:57.794 --> 00:25:01.274
these are incredible, masterful artists that were hugely

629
00:25:01.294 --> 00:25:05.074
influential well beyond their life on this earth, right?

630
00:25:05.094 --> 00:25:05.554
Yeah.

631
00:25:06.154 --> 00:25:09.884
But I think with Sonny, if you look at the different interactions, and we haven't

632
00:25:09.914 --> 00:25:13.774
even gotten to his trio playing without piano, to his

633
00:25:13.894 --> 00:25:17.574
solo pi-- I remember hearing him play solo saxophone at Lincoln Center.

634
00:25:18.114 --> 00:25:18.504
Yeah.

635
00:25:18.574 --> 00:25:21.574
I want to say it wasn't out-- I don't know why I'm thinking it was outdoors.

636
00:25:21.614 --> 00:25:23.934
It might've been, late '80s, early '90s.

637
00:25:24.014 --> 00:25:27.794
But I mean-I think that he may be the most

638
00:25:27.874 --> 00:25:31.564
influential and revered among saxophone players,

639
00:25:31.854 --> 00:25:34.064
in particular, even above John Coltrane.

640
00:25:34.084 --> 00:25:37.814
It's not about above, but in a way that I think others-- If you talk about

641
00:25:37.854 --> 00:25:40.534
Joshua Redman, Branford Marsalis, Chris Potter,

642
00:25:42.274 --> 00:25:43.094
Joe Lovano,

643
00:25:43.934 --> 00:25:47.324
the influence, the reverence, the connection-

644
00:25:47.434 --> 00:25:47.614
Yeah

645
00:25:47.754 --> 00:25:49.754
... and for sure, John Coltrane, of course.

646
00:25:49.804 --> 00:25:49.804
Yeah.

647
00:25:49.814 --> 00:25:50.704
And of course, Charlie Parker.

648
00:25:50.744 --> 00:25:50.744
Yeah.

649
00:25:50.754 --> 00:25:52.014
We're talking about the OG there, right?

650
00:25:52.234 --> 00:25:54.634
It's kind of like saying,

651
00:25:55.654 --> 00:25:59.274
as a pianist, I'm influenced by Bud Powell and

652
00:25:59.294 --> 00:26:00.914
Thelonious Monk, or Herbie Hancock-

653
00:26:00.944 --> 00:26:00.944
Yeah

654
00:26:00.944 --> 00:26:02.414
... and Bill Evans and Chick Corea.

655
00:26:03.394 --> 00:26:03.714
Yes.

656
00:26:04.074 --> 00:26:04.574
Yes. Right.

657
00:26:04.594 --> 00:26:04.754
You know?

658
00:26:04.994 --> 00:26:05.204
Exactly.

659
00:26:05.294 --> 00:26:05.634
All of it.

660
00:26:05.834 --> 00:26:06.034
Right.

661
00:26:06.354 --> 00:26:09.434
All of that, we all go through these eras where it's like-

662
00:26:09.944 --> 00:26:09.944
Right

663
00:26:09.944 --> 00:26:12.254
... and you hear tenor players. You can hear young tenor players-

664
00:26:12.283 --> 00:26:12.794
I see tenor players

665
00:26:12.814 --> 00:26:14.934
... go through their Sonny era.

666
00:26:14.994 --> 00:26:15.254
Yeah.

667
00:26:15.264 --> 00:26:16.514
You hear them go through their Trane era.

668
00:26:16.614 --> 00:26:18.274
Sometimes you hear them go through a little Wayne era.

669
00:26:18.314 --> 00:26:18.534
Yeah.

670
00:26:18.554 --> 00:26:21.344
You know what I mean? And that's part of a lot of musicians' development and

671
00:26:21.354 --> 00:26:22.794
growth, and of course, so many other people.

672
00:26:22.854 --> 00:26:23.104
But I mean-

673
00:26:23.154 --> 00:26:26.234
It's very personal. But those two, especially, I think you're right.

674
00:26:26.314 --> 00:26:28.114
Those two, especially, are like-

675
00:26:28.614 --> 00:26:28.783
Trane and Sonny

676
00:26:28.783 --> 00:26:31.234
... at some point, everybody sort of spends time with them.

677
00:26:31.274 --> 00:26:31.454
Right.

678
00:26:31.574 --> 00:26:31.794
You know?

679
00:26:32.134 --> 00:26:36.034
I just think that if you were to press me and be like, "Who is the most influential

680
00:26:36.114 --> 00:26:39.914
tenor saxophone of jazz of all time?" I think I would say Sonny Rollins.

681
00:26:39.954 --> 00:26:40.154
Mm.

682
00:26:40.414 --> 00:26:44.214
Because if we talk about the tenor players from our

683
00:26:44.254 --> 00:26:48.214
generation, from my generation, maybe even, yeah, Branford, Joshua

684
00:26:48.254 --> 00:26:48.734
Redman.

685
00:26:50.394 --> 00:26:54.074
I know I'm missing great people. But even not just tenor players, Kenny Garrett-

686
00:26:54.154 --> 00:26:54.164
Yeah

687
00:26:54.164 --> 00:26:55.084
... Chris Potter, and stuff.

688
00:26:55.394 --> 00:26:55.404
Yeah.

689
00:26:55.454 --> 00:26:59.194
I think that you hear a direct influence even more than Trane,

690
00:26:59.364 --> 00:27:00.924
and maybe that's because Trane

691
00:27:02.194 --> 00:27:06.154
is so influential to all of us, to pianists, to his quartet, to the whole thing.

692
00:27:06.194 --> 00:27:07.794
And this is ridiculous that I'm even saying.

693
00:27:07.914 --> 00:27:10.654
I don't want to understate the

694
00:27:11.154 --> 00:27:15.014
influence that Sonny had, I think a lot of people, because he didn't

695
00:27:15.054 --> 00:27:16.834
play a lot the last 20 years of his life.

696
00:27:17.034 --> 00:27:18.114
And even before that, he didn't-

697
00:27:18.134 --> 00:27:18.594
Well, I think-

698
00:27:18.604 --> 00:27:19.014
He never was like-

699
00:27:19.394 --> 00:27:21.794
This is sort of maybe just a cultural thing.

700
00:27:22.014 --> 00:27:22.134
Yeah.

701
00:27:22.214 --> 00:27:23.534
Because we lost Trane so young.

702
00:27:23.754 --> 00:27:23.854
Yeah.

703
00:27:23.944 --> 00:27:25.714
And that becomes very intense for people.

704
00:27:25.794 --> 00:27:25.974
Right.

705
00:27:26.004 --> 00:27:27.924
Right? We lost that connection with him, and we've

706
00:27:29.074 --> 00:27:30.414
had Sonny-

707
00:27:30.604 --> 00:27:30.764
Yeah

708
00:27:30.794 --> 00:27:31.964
... this whole time until Monday.

709
00:27:32.124 --> 00:27:32.124
Right.

710
00:27:32.154 --> 00:27:32.604
You know what I mean?

711
00:27:33.104 --> 00:27:33.104
Right.

712
00:27:33.114 --> 00:27:34.634
And sometimes we take that for granted.

713
00:27:34.893 --> 00:27:36.064
Yeah, absolutely.

714
00:27:36.114 --> 00:27:39.694
And it's a good reminder that we're all here for a limited time, and to appreciate-

715
00:27:39.714 --> 00:27:43.454
So basically, I shouldn't be sitting here saying he's the most influential tenor

716
00:27:43.554 --> 00:27:46.414
player after he's passed. I should've been saying that these last-

717
00:27:46.494 --> 00:27:47.114
This whole time.

718
00:27:47.174 --> 00:27:47.214
Yeah.

719
00:27:47.274 --> 00:27:47.874
Yeah.

720
00:27:47.894 --> 00:27:49.814
Well, thanks for reminding me, buddy. Buddy.

721
00:27:50.074 --> 00:27:53.914
One of the reasons he's so-- We're in the middle now of just, this is an all-time

722
00:27:53.974 --> 00:27:54.154
run.

723
00:27:54.894 --> 00:27:55.334
Yeah.

724
00:27:55.414 --> 00:27:56.404
Almost unmatched, and-

725
00:27:56.594 --> 00:27:58.394
It's the imperial period. That's what we're going to call it.

726
00:27:58.434 --> 00:28:02.164
The imperial period. Well, we're about to go into a whole other

727
00:28:02.254 --> 00:28:06.014
stratosphere because, in 1956, he makes, and in

728
00:28:06.374 --> 00:28:07.754
1957, he releases

729
00:28:09.174 --> 00:28:12.594
what a lot of people consider to be one of the great jazz albums ever. Right?

730
00:28:12.734 --> 00:28:13.594
In the

731
00:28:14.814 --> 00:28:16.494
highest echelons of jazz albums.

732
00:28:16.734 --> 00:28:16.954
Yep.

733
00:28:16.974 --> 00:28:19.914
It's Saxophone Colossus. The cover is iconic.

734
00:28:20.434 --> 00:28:24.134
Every track is amazing, and it starts with one of the great

735
00:28:24.174 --> 00:28:27.714
opening tracks of any album of any genre ever, and it's St. Thomas.

736
00:28:35.714 --> 00:28:36.014
Woo.

737
00:28:36.914 --> 00:28:39.144
We take for granted this calypso rhythm now, but-

738
00:28:39.654 --> 00:28:39.684
Right

739
00:28:39.684 --> 00:28:40.023
... this was

740
00:28:40.834 --> 00:28:41.374
kind of a thing-

741
00:28:41.654 --> 00:28:41.854
Yeah

742
00:28:41.874 --> 00:28:42.874
... in 1957.

743
00:28:42.934 --> 00:28:46.094
And this is Sonny Rollins. Both of his parents were from the Virgin Islands.

744
00:28:46.134 --> 00:28:46.294
That's right.

745
00:28:46.894 --> 00:28:46.994
So,

746
00:28:48.634 --> 00:28:50.814
this is his lineage. This is his heritage.

747
00:28:57.334 --> 00:28:58.834
One of the greatest-sounding records ever.

748
00:29:03.214 --> 00:29:04.194
I mean...

749
00:29:05.094 --> 00:29:05.894
Hey.

750
00:29:06.834 --> 00:29:08.914
Max Roach on the drums, Tommy Flanagan on the piano-

751
00:29:08.934 --> 00:29:09.894
But just the way Sonny-

752
00:29:09.994 --> 00:29:10.284
... Doug Watkins on the bass

753
00:29:10.294 --> 00:29:12.194
... is phrasing the-- Obviously, he wrote this, but

754
00:29:13.634 --> 00:29:14.174
damn.

755
00:29:15.734 --> 00:29:17.874
Yeah, this is another Sonny original. Also a standard.

756
00:29:20.234 --> 00:29:22.854
You have a very famous version with Joshua Redman of this.

757
00:29:23.394 --> 00:29:24.114
And like this.

758
00:29:28.614 --> 00:29:28.754
Oh.

759
00:30:00.524 --> 00:30:00.854
Woo.

760
00:30:01.174 --> 00:30:01.694
Oh, man.

761
00:30:03.314 --> 00:30:03.634
Man.

762
00:30:07.154 --> 00:30:09.214
Chockfull of ideas. Dang.

763
00:30:11.174 --> 00:30:12.854
It's one of the most perfect solos ever.

764
00:30:12.954 --> 00:30:16.724
Man, I'm glad you said that. That's exactly what I was just

765
00:30:16.734 --> 00:30:19.334
thinking. I was like, "This is in a small group."

766
00:30:19.354 --> 00:30:19.794
Stratosphere.

767
00:30:20.214 --> 00:30:21.344
Yeah. Not that a

768
00:30:22.174 --> 00:30:25.974
solo has to be perfect to be great, but I'm thinking like, Giant

769
00:30:26.054 --> 00:30:28.654
Steps, John Coltrane. There's a number of them.

770
00:30:28.794 --> 00:30:30.594
There's some great solos that aren't perfect, but man.

771
00:30:30.734 --> 00:30:31.864
Miles, what? The-

772
00:30:31.894 --> 00:30:32.994
Yeah. I'm sorry.

773
00:30:33.874 --> 00:30:37.194
It's perfect to life. I'll shut up.

774
00:30:39.694 --> 00:30:40.554
Do you like this record, by the way?

775
00:30:44.674 --> 00:30:47.834
It made all his phrasing decisions. Oh.

776
00:30:56.744 --> 00:30:58.574
A virtuoso. He was a virtuoso.

777
00:31:00.374 --> 00:31:01.014
So was Max.

778
00:31:07.614 --> 00:31:08.624
Okay, this is great. We got-

779
00:31:08.734 --> 00:31:10.094
Hold on. Wait. No, what are you doing? What are you doing?

780
00:31:10.154 --> 00:31:10.714
Yeah, no, what are we doing?

781
00:31:10.774 --> 00:31:12.974
We've got to listen to one.

782
00:31:13.034 --> 00:31:13.584
Oh, this one again?

783
00:31:13.584 --> 00:31:14.094
Anything.

784
00:31:14.974 --> 00:31:16.394
We've got to listen to "Strode Rode."

785
00:31:21.714 --> 00:31:23.054
Max Roach crushes this song.

786
00:31:23.734 --> 00:31:25.254
This is kind of a perfect solo, too.

787
00:31:25.514 --> 00:31:25.694
Yeah.

788
00:31:25.854 --> 00:31:26.114
Damn.

789
00:31:26.124 --> 00:31:26.894
The whole album is perfect.

790
00:31:26.934 --> 00:31:35.402
Yeah.Man,

791
00:31:35.462 --> 00:31:38.342
the way he bridges the calypso with the swing.

792
00:31:38.362 --> 00:31:38.612
All of a sudden.

793
00:31:38.612 --> 00:31:38.612
Yeah.

794
00:31:38.612 --> 00:31:39.082
All of a sudden.

795
00:31:39.462 --> 00:31:42.142
It's like Max Roach on 52nd Street. Oh!

796
00:31:43.862 --> 00:31:46.002
Man, this is a very influential, oh, my God.

797
00:31:46.402 --> 00:31:47.482
This is as influential

798
00:31:48.622 --> 00:31:50.682
as Sonny's solo, in a way, for drummers.

799
00:31:50.902 --> 00:31:52.742
Sonny comes back in with the most beautiful line.

800
00:31:53.102 --> 00:31:56.182
I've heard some great drummers play this solo now that I think of it.

801
00:31:57.262 --> 00:31:58.442
I mean, really great drummers.

802
00:32:01.002 --> 00:32:01.342
Woo.

803
00:32:02.442 --> 00:32:06.122
That's what I'm saying, Max, like Clifford, I think Sonny bonded.

804
00:32:06.162 --> 00:32:06.802
You can hear it.

805
00:32:08.531 --> 00:32:12.522
They bonded high QA. High IQ, musical

806
00:32:12.562 --> 00:32:13.762
IQ, but high

807
00:32:15.562 --> 00:32:16.022
quality.

808
00:32:16.522 --> 00:32:18.132
He's playing the tunes, too, by the way.

809
00:32:18.142 --> 00:32:19.942
Oh, yeah. Duh.

810
00:32:24.662 --> 00:32:25.422
My goodness.

811
00:32:27.282 --> 00:32:28.322
My goodness.

812
00:32:28.442 --> 00:32:30.762
Swing activated. Incoming activated.

813
00:32:32.462 --> 00:32:33.531
That's all I want to hear.

814
00:32:33.572 --> 00:32:33.822
No, it's-

815
00:32:33.962 --> 00:32:35.322
I wanted to get that far.

816
00:32:35.382 --> 00:32:35.942
It's a great one.

817
00:32:35.982 --> 00:32:36.092
That's unbelievable.

818
00:32:36.092 --> 00:32:38.722
And look, I'm glad, actually, and we had toyed with starting,

819
00:32:39.582 --> 00:32:43.512
but this was great. We're kind of at the apex moment of this episode, I feel like.

820
00:32:43.512 --> 00:32:43.512
Yeah.

821
00:32:43.562 --> 00:32:47.142
Because we were discussing what to start with, and you were like, "We've got to

822
00:32:47.162 --> 00:32:49.012
start with this." And I was like, "Well, everybody knows that.

823
00:32:49.062 --> 00:32:50.062
It's so great, of course."

824
00:32:50.322 --> 00:32:50.402
Yeah.

825
00:32:50.482 --> 00:32:54.442
But now that I'm hearing it again, I'm like, man, it's such a great time

826
00:32:54.482 --> 00:32:57.602
when an album and a track, I mean, it's kind of like Kind of Blue and

827
00:32:58.262 --> 00:32:58.862
Giant Steps-

828
00:32:58.922 --> 00:32:59.022
Yeah

829
00:32:59.262 --> 00:33:00.372
... and everything in 1959.

830
00:33:00.522 --> 00:33:00.732
No, I mean-

831
00:33:00.732 --> 00:33:01.802
Where something that's so great-

832
00:33:01.812 --> 00:33:02.462
... Crescent, Love Supreme

833
00:33:02.472 --> 00:33:03.412
... but it's actually great

834
00:33:03.462 --> 00:33:06.882
... Live at the Pershing, the Now He Sings, Now He Sobs.

835
00:33:06.952 --> 00:33:08.702
When something stands, yeah, for the right reasons.

836
00:33:08.762 --> 00:33:12.042
These records, they sort of transcend even the artist that has made them.

837
00:33:12.482 --> 00:33:15.482
Someone somewhere is listening to St.

838
00:33:15.682 --> 00:33:18.712
Thomas right now and is like, "Oh, I think I like jazz."

839
00:33:19.082 --> 00:33:19.202
Right.

840
00:33:19.282 --> 00:33:20.592
You know what I mean? Like, "Do I like jazz?

841
00:33:20.682 --> 00:33:22.072
I didn't think I liked it, but I like this.

842
00:33:22.102 --> 00:33:22.922
Whatever this is, I like."

843
00:33:22.952 --> 00:33:23.902
"I like this kind of jazz."

844
00:33:23.942 --> 00:33:24.102
Yeah.

845
00:33:25.162 --> 00:33:27.572
We need a category of, I like this kind of jazz album.

846
00:33:27.622 --> 00:33:30.022
Maybe it's the Sonny Rollins I like this kind of jazz album.

847
00:33:30.202 --> 00:33:30.261
Yeah.

848
00:33:30.302 --> 00:33:34.122
Yeah. I have also Blue 7 cued up, which

849
00:33:34.202 --> 00:33:34.662
is another.

850
00:33:34.672 --> 00:33:34.752
Oh, I like Blues.

851
00:33:34.752 --> 00:33:36.962
I mean, the whole album, honestly, we could do a whole.

852
00:33:37.222 --> 00:33:37.932
We've done that.

853
00:33:37.932 --> 00:33:38.822
We've done this, but we should do

854
00:33:39.622 --> 00:33:40.362
Saxophone Colossus-

855
00:33:40.422 --> 00:33:40.432
We're learning, yeah

856
00:33:40.432 --> 00:33:41.842
... because it was early days, and we could do better.

857
00:33:42.602 --> 00:33:42.632
But-

858
00:33:42.682 --> 00:33:45.341
And it's a record, I think, that jazz musicians

859
00:33:46.382 --> 00:33:50.282
don't talk about, study, reference, and recommend enough, actually-

860
00:33:50.382 --> 00:33:50.482
Yeah

861
00:33:50.562 --> 00:33:53.622
... amongst ourselves. I mean, there was a time when it was, because what happens

862
00:33:53.662 --> 00:33:57.582
is this becomes, I mean, it's sort of like the New York

863
00:33:57.662 --> 00:34:00.082
Yankees are, so I'm a Yankee, and at a certain point, it's like, I can't be a

864
00:34:00.122 --> 00:34:01.982
Yankees fan anymore because everybody's a fan.

865
00:34:02.602 --> 00:34:05.462
Yeah. And listen, we are going to miss a lot of stuff during this era.

866
00:34:05.522 --> 00:34:06.842
I'm skipping over albums.

867
00:34:06.862 --> 00:34:07.312
He's prolific.

868
00:34:07.402 --> 00:34:08.292
We're not getting everything.

869
00:34:08.342 --> 00:34:08.392
No.

870
00:34:08.513 --> 00:34:10.553
And we're probably going to miss something that you all love.

871
00:34:10.582 --> 00:34:13.842
And please put in the comments what your favorite Sonny albums, especially the ones

872
00:34:13.862 --> 00:34:14.102
that we're-

873
00:34:14.482 --> 00:34:14.542
Yes

874
00:34:14.553 --> 00:34:15.881
... missing, because we're going to miss a lot.

875
00:34:15.922 --> 00:34:19.723
He was so prolific, especially during this period, that it's just impossible to

876
00:34:19.743 --> 00:34:23.122
listen to everything. I think the next big thing for me that stands out is an

877
00:34:23.131 --> 00:34:23.422
album-

878
00:34:23.642 --> 00:34:23.652
Ah

879
00:34:23.652 --> 00:34:27.442
... released in '57 called Way Out West. This is frigging amazing, man.

880
00:34:27.482 --> 00:34:30.631
And it starts with an "I'm an Old Cowhand," which is,

881
00:34:30.662 --> 00:34:33.922
again, incredibly interesting choice.

882
00:34:34.252 --> 00:34:37.732
And this was all Sonny's choice. This was not, like, a publicist or a

883
00:34:37.763 --> 00:34:41.322
producer. This is his first time, and they recorded this in LA.

884
00:34:41.342 --> 00:34:41.601
Yeah.

885
00:34:42.042 --> 00:34:45.402
I believe Ray Brown was, isn't Shelly Manne on drums?

886
00:34:45.442 --> 00:34:47.212
Who definitely was in LA. I think Ray was already living in LA.

887
00:34:47.223 --> 00:34:49.002
Yeah. Ray and Shelly are the rhythm section.

888
00:34:49.022 --> 00:34:50.642
So, he's playing with the local rhythm section.

889
00:34:50.803 --> 00:34:51.542
Are those guys-

890
00:34:51.763 --> 00:34:52.312
It's their local rhythm section, played with Ray.

891
00:34:52.362 --> 00:34:54.542
But his thing was, he wanted to have the cowboy hat.

892
00:34:54.602 --> 00:34:55.743
He was like, "Let's make it a vibe."

893
00:34:55.803 --> 00:34:57.882
Yeah. The cover's amazing here, but it's-

894
00:34:57.902 --> 00:34:58.902
One of the greatest covers ever

895
00:34:58.962 --> 00:35:01.142
... and one of the greatest albums of Sonny's career.

896
00:35:03.522 --> 00:35:03.532
Yeah.

897
00:35:04.732 --> 00:35:08.542
We're on the trail. Another great drum setup, right?

898
00:35:11.102 --> 00:35:12.522
Ooh, look at that bass drum sound.

899
00:35:12.542 --> 00:35:13.082
Yeah, it's awesome.

900
00:35:23.702 --> 00:35:24.082
Woo.

901
00:35:24.182 --> 00:35:24.362
Woo.

902
00:35:30.102 --> 00:35:31.662
How do you like your bass lines? Ray Brown style?

903
00:35:31.822 --> 00:35:34.022
I love my bass lines Ray Brown style. Thank you very much.

904
00:35:34.102 --> 00:35:35.282
Man, Sonny was so

905
00:35:36.422 --> 00:35:38.392
flexible with material, with players.

906
00:35:39.762 --> 00:35:41.542
So laid back through this, too.

907
00:35:43.092 --> 00:35:43.092
Yeah.

908
00:35:43.142 --> 00:35:44.672
I mean, if you haven't checked out-

909
00:35:44.762 --> 00:35:45.302
Ricardo floating

910
00:35:45.312 --> 00:35:46.432
... Way Out West, give it a go.

911
00:35:46.442 --> 00:35:49.002
Is this his first pianist trio record?

912
00:35:49.262 --> 00:35:52.002
Well, I'm glad you mentioned that because he's going to go on. I don't know.

913
00:35:52.762 --> 00:35:53.402
It was one of the first.

914
00:35:53.481 --> 00:35:57.402
But it's definitely the most famous, except for a live album he made the next year.

915
00:35:57.502 --> 00:35:57.602
Yeah.

916
00:35:57.942 --> 00:36:01.862
Which is, this was the first Sonny Rollins I ever

917
00:36:01.922 --> 00:36:02.142
owned.

918
00:36:02.442 --> 00:36:02.582
Mm.

919
00:36:02.702 --> 00:36:06.302
I remember buying the CD when I was a teenager, before I had Saxophone Colossus,

920
00:36:06.362 --> 00:36:07.042
before any of that.

921
00:36:07.282 --> 00:36:11.022
I heard this before Saxophone. There was a period where this was kind of the one

922
00:36:11.062 --> 00:36:12.222
everybody was talking about.

923
00:36:12.382 --> 00:36:14.222
In the '90s, and it's not Way Out West.

924
00:36:14.322 --> 00:36:17.322
It's a live album called A Night at the Village Vanguard.

925
00:36:17.342 --> 00:36:21.122
It's got this pink cover of Sonny, this portrait of Sonny in

926
00:36:21.222 --> 00:36:23.922
sunglasses, and this pink hue over him.

927
00:36:24.562 --> 00:36:25.362
It's a Blue Note album,

928
00:36:26.762 --> 00:36:30.692
released in '58, recorded in '57, at the Village Vanguard, which you can still

929
00:36:30.762 --> 00:36:32.162
go to the Village Vanguard today-

930
00:36:32.592 --> 00:36:32.592
Yes

931
00:36:32.592 --> 00:36:35.802
... and you can hear musicians making albums and making great music.

932
00:36:36.402 --> 00:36:40.302
And this is the greatest live jazz album of all time, in my opinion.

933
00:36:40.422 --> 00:36:42.442
I know you have your Miles things that you like.

934
00:36:42.502 --> 00:36:43.912
I wouldn't argue with you at all on this.

935
00:36:43.922 --> 00:36:45.882
And we could say Live at the Pershing has also-

936
00:36:45.982 --> 00:36:46.192
Absolutely

937
00:36:46.192 --> 00:36:48.202
... got to be up there, but this has to be in the conversation.

938
00:36:48.242 --> 00:36:49.362
It's in the Mount Rushmore. Come on.

939
00:36:52.842 --> 00:36:53.202
Ah.

940
00:36:53.222 --> 00:36:53.862
Wilbur Ware, right?

941
00:36:54.102 --> 00:36:54.402
Wilbur Ware.

942
00:36:54.422 --> 00:36:54.682
Yeah.

943
00:36:55.542 --> 00:36:56.202
Elvin. Ah.

944
00:36:57.882 --> 00:36:59.842
I remember when I first heard Elvin on this, I was like.

945
00:37:05.482 --> 00:37:06.742
Yeah, Wilbur Ware, Elvin Jones.

946
00:37:08.522 --> 00:37:10.202
Elvin Jones, brush style.

947
00:37:14.122 --> 00:37:16.282
Oh, sorry. No, this is the afternoon take, actually.

948
00:37:16.342 --> 00:37:16.982
Oh, this is the, okay.

949
00:37:17.032 --> 00:37:18.572
Yeah, this is Donald Bailey and Pete LaRoca. My bad.

950
00:37:18.602 --> 00:37:19.062
Oh, that's right.

951
00:37:19.122 --> 00:37:19.132
Yeah.

952
00:37:19.142 --> 00:37:20.232
They did an afternoon set.

953
00:37:20.282 --> 00:37:21.492
Because they did same day-

954
00:37:21.722 --> 00:37:21.802
Yeah

955
00:37:21.822 --> 00:37:23.462
... different band, afternoon, different band, evening.

956
00:37:23.522 --> 00:37:25.062
That's crazy.

957
00:37:25.882 --> 00:37:27.572
Yeah, it's

958
00:37:27.902 --> 00:37:32.962
great.

959
00:37:37.422 --> 00:37:37.862
In some

960
00:37:37.922 --> 00:37:42.864
ways-It's

961
00:37:42.864 --> 00:37:44.174
my favorite Sonny

962
00:37:45.354 --> 00:37:46.214
sound.

963
00:37:47.294 --> 00:37:47.724
100% agree.

964
00:37:47.724 --> 00:37:48.214
The way it sound.

965
00:37:48.354 --> 00:37:51.414
This is my top three Sonny albums ever.

966
00:37:51.434 --> 00:37:54.554
It's so pure and dry. Just specifically on his saxophone.

967
00:37:55.074 --> 00:37:56.614
The playing is so

968
00:37:57.434 --> 00:37:57.694
raw-

969
00:37:58.134 --> 00:37:58.274
Yeah

970
00:37:58.354 --> 00:37:59.374
... and pure, and beautiful.

971
00:37:59.394 --> 00:38:02.954
But I think he is probably the top, even above

972
00:38:03.034 --> 00:38:06.994
Trane, I would say, to have a sound that could survive

973
00:38:07.054 --> 00:38:10.894
being recorded totally raw at the Vanguard. Trane, of course, was great.

974
00:38:10.994 --> 00:38:12.834
Joshua Redman. Branford-

975
00:38:12.854 --> 00:38:13.854
It's almost better,

976
00:38:14.674 --> 00:38:16.134
Live and Dead at the Vanguard.

977
00:38:16.174 --> 00:38:16.454
Right.

978
00:38:16.914 --> 00:38:17.244
You're almost more just-

979
00:38:17.254 --> 00:38:19.414
But man, you've got to be S tier to pull that off.

980
00:38:19.554 --> 00:38:21.344
100. But you're almost more astonished about how-

981
00:38:21.474 --> 00:38:21.604
I know

982
00:38:21.614 --> 00:38:22.564
... beautiful that sound is.

983
00:38:22.564 --> 00:38:23.004
It is, yeah.

984
00:38:23.004 --> 00:38:23.774
It's really incredible.

985
00:38:23.814 --> 00:38:26.014
I think it might be. I love the Van Gelder.

986
00:38:26.114 --> 00:38:29.654
I have my quibble bits, of course, with the piano and even the bass, but I

987
00:38:29.674 --> 00:38:33.404
think Van Gelder, the way he recorded Sonny, and saxophone, in general, was

988
00:38:33.434 --> 00:38:33.884
genius.

989
00:38:34.074 --> 00:38:34.914
Yeah.

990
00:38:35.154 --> 00:38:39.064
Incredible. That contemporary, LA, The Way Out West, my

991
00:38:39.134 --> 00:38:43.034
only quibble bit is Sonny's sound on there, I think is a little,

992
00:38:43.114 --> 00:38:47.094
not his playing, and still, they captured it, but the mix is not on the

993
00:38:47.134 --> 00:38:47.414
level.

994
00:38:47.454 --> 00:38:49.054
I don't mind it. I never said-

995
00:38:49.074 --> 00:38:52.954
I don't mind it. No. And that's not the greatest Ray Brown sound,

996
00:38:53.034 --> 00:38:53.234
either-

997
00:38:53.714 --> 00:38:54.094
That I agree

998
00:38:54.104 --> 00:38:54.554
... recording.

999
00:38:54.574 --> 00:38:54.804
That I agree.

1000
00:38:54.874 --> 00:38:56.974
But look, you can hear him, and it's great.

1001
00:38:57.034 --> 00:38:57.514
Yeah.

1002
00:38:58.654 --> 00:39:01.634
Well, we're nearing the end of this imperial period, as you say.

1003
00:39:01.914 --> 00:39:02.304
I don't know why I said that.

1004
00:39:02.514 --> 00:39:06.414
One of the biggest albums that came out around this time, which came out in

1005
00:39:06.774 --> 00:39:10.614
March 1959, was an album on Blue Note called Newk's Time,

1006
00:39:10.794 --> 00:39:13.834
and this is very highly regarded by a lot of people, this album.

1007
00:39:13.844 --> 00:39:13.844
Yeah.

1008
00:39:13.874 --> 00:39:16.434
It's not talked about a lot, I feel like, as much as some of these others.

1009
00:39:16.604 --> 00:39:16.614
But-

1010
00:39:16.634 --> 00:39:19.554
Is this the Tommy Flanagan on? This one was?

1011
00:39:19.994 --> 00:39:21.754
So Wynton Kelly-

1012
00:39:21.974 --> 00:39:21.984
Oh, wow

1013
00:39:21.984 --> 00:39:24.174
... Doug Watkins, Philly Joe are on this one.

1014
00:39:24.184 --> 00:39:25.134
Okay. Right. Damn.

1015
00:39:25.154 --> 00:39:26.134
If that interests you.

1016
00:39:26.154 --> 00:39:26.474
It does.

1017
00:39:26.834 --> 00:39:29.834
This is wonderful, and this track is called "Wonderful, Wonderful." Check this out.

1018
00:39:37.734 --> 00:40:01.914
Ha.

1019
00:40:01.924 --> 00:40:03.383
That was Wynton Kelly.

1020
00:40:09.934 --> 00:40:10.974
Woo.

1021
00:40:31.954 --> 00:40:33.494
Oh, the vibrato.

1022
00:40:38.434 --> 00:40:41.974
The title Newk's Time is a reference to Rollins' nickname, Newk-

1023
00:40:42.174 --> 00:40:42.184
Yeah

1024
00:40:42.184 --> 00:40:45.534
... which is apparently based on his resemblance to Don Newcombe, a pitcher for the

1025
00:40:45.634 --> 00:40:46.514
Brooklyn Dodgers.

1026
00:40:46.594 --> 00:40:46.754
Yeah.

1027
00:40:47.174 --> 00:40:48.994
Isn't that funny? Great album, Newk's Time.

1028
00:40:49.814 --> 00:40:53.594
But this is an interesting period, Peter, because I'm

1029
00:40:53.794 --> 00:40:57.714
going to quote from this section of Sonny's Wikipedia, which I think actually

1030
00:40:57.754 --> 00:41:01.614
sums up this period really nice. "By 1959, Rollins had become

1031
00:41:01.674 --> 00:41:05.554
frustrated with what he perceived as his own musical limitations and

1032
00:41:05.594 --> 00:41:08.724
took the first and most famous of his musical sabbaticals.

1033
00:41:09.274 --> 00:41:12.414
While living on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, he ventured to the pedestrian

1034
00:41:12.494 --> 00:41:16.194
walkway of the Williamsburg Bridge to practice in order to avoid

1035
00:41:16.214 --> 00:41:18.194
disturbing a neighboring expectant mother."

1036
00:41:19.274 --> 00:41:22.944
Today, a 15-story apartment building named The Rollins stands on the

1037
00:41:22.994 --> 00:41:26.674
Grand Street site where he lived, and actually, there's a petition going around to

1038
00:41:26.694 --> 00:41:29.574
rename the Williamsburg Bridge the Sonny Rollins Bridge right now.

1039
00:41:30.394 --> 00:41:30.474
Mm.

1040
00:41:30.484 --> 00:41:31.444
"Almost every day from the

1041
00:41:33.614 --> 00:41:37.574
summer of 1959 through the end of 1961, Rollins practiced on

1042
00:41:37.614 --> 00:41:39.114
the bridge next to the subway tracks.

1043
00:41:39.594 --> 00:41:43.134
Rollins admitted that he would often practice for 15 or 16 hours a day, no matter

1044
00:41:43.254 --> 00:41:46.534
what season. In the summer of 1961, the journalist Ralph

1045
00:41:46.614 --> 00:41:50.554
Burton happened to pass by the saxophonist on the bridge one day and published

1046
00:41:50.594 --> 00:41:53.274
an article in Metronome magazine about the occurrence.

1047
00:41:53.834 --> 00:41:56.594
During this period, Rollins became a dedicated practitioner of yoga.

1048
00:41:57.214 --> 00:41:59.874
Rollins ended his sabbatical in November 1961.

1049
00:42:00.034 --> 00:42:03.954
He later said, 'I could've probably spent the rest of my life just going up on the

1050
00:42:04.014 --> 00:42:07.034
bridge. I realized, no, I have to get back into the real world.'"

1051
00:42:08.274 --> 00:42:08.434
Hmm.

1052
00:42:09.554 --> 00:42:12.114
And it's one of the biggest legends.

1053
00:42:12.354 --> 00:42:13.634
The lore of Sonny is-

1054
00:42:13.654 --> 00:42:13.664
Yeah

1055
00:42:13.674 --> 00:42:17.254
... this two-year period where he stopped performing, stopped recording,

1056
00:42:17.934 --> 00:42:21.584
and just practiced for 15 hours a day, every day, on the Williamsburg Bridge.

1057
00:42:21.614 --> 00:42:22.894
Well, 16 hours sometimes.

1058
00:42:23.014 --> 00:42:26.914
Sometimes 16 hours. That's

1059
00:42:26.994 --> 00:42:28.514
monk behavior. Not Thelonious Monk, but-

1060
00:42:29.074 --> 00:42:29.374
Right

1061
00:42:29.494 --> 00:42:31.574
... religious, spiritual monk behavior.

1062
00:42:31.654 --> 00:42:31.814
Yeah.

1063
00:42:31.874 --> 00:42:34.734
"I'm going to sequester myself from

1064
00:42:35.574 --> 00:42:39.394
this thing." He was dissatisfied with his limitations, and, "I

1065
00:42:39.474 --> 00:42:42.634
need some time to go inward," and he did.

1066
00:42:42.974 --> 00:42:46.154
Serve the art. The ultimate thank you, Sonny Rollins, for setting the bar-

1067
00:42:46.554 --> 00:42:46.774
Yeah

1068
00:42:46.784 --> 00:42:49.464
... in a number of ways, but I would say that might be the most profound part of

1069
00:42:49.474 --> 00:42:51.354
his legacy is for,

1070
00:42:52.974 --> 00:42:54.514
and that's not shtick. It's

1071
00:42:55.794 --> 00:42:59.764
kind of become that, legendary status of this story, but

1072
00:43:00.014 --> 00:43:03.464
you don't just do that to get written a story about.

1073
00:43:03.614 --> 00:43:07.334
You do that out of some type of dedication and

1074
00:43:07.494 --> 00:43:07.984
service-

1075
00:43:08.174 --> 00:43:08.184
Yeah

1076
00:43:08.184 --> 00:43:10.774
... where you feel like you need to improve you as a vessel.

1077
00:43:12.434 --> 00:43:14.454
Everything we listened to was before that, so he was already great.

1078
00:43:14.634 --> 00:43:14.724
Yeah.

1079
00:43:15.074 --> 00:43:17.034
It wasn't like, "Ah, he's been slipping."

1080
00:43:17.154 --> 00:43:19.554
We heard what he just made in 1959. It was amazing.

1081
00:43:19.654 --> 00:43:19.743
Yeah.

1082
00:43:19.814 --> 00:43:20.014
You know?

1083
00:43:20.194 --> 00:43:22.194
But you talk about set the bar, and then he-

1084
00:43:22.243 --> 00:43:22.243
Yeah

1085
00:43:22.254 --> 00:43:25.254
... set the standard, and it's like, "No, I want to be here."

1086
00:43:25.594 --> 00:43:28.313
So the first album he made when he came back is called The Bridge.

1087
00:43:28.394 --> 00:43:28.424
Mm.

1088
00:43:28.474 --> 00:43:32.294
And it's one of his classics. It's an album that is very

1089
00:43:32.334 --> 00:43:33.504
revered. And-

1090
00:43:33.574 --> 00:43:36.164
And just to say, the Williamsburg Bridge, I don't know if you've ever been on

1091
00:43:36.214 --> 00:43:39.864
there, but there's car traffic, there's

1092
00:43:39.914 --> 00:43:41.194
subways as well.

1093
00:43:41.294 --> 00:43:42.354
Yeah, he would practice by the subway trains.

1094
00:43:42.454 --> 00:43:45.034
Yeah, but there's also, it's a walking commuting.

1095
00:43:45.064 --> 00:43:45.064
Yeah.

1096
00:43:45.294 --> 00:43:45.854
Still today.

1097
00:43:45.914 --> 00:43:46.424
For sure. Yeah.

1098
00:43:46.634 --> 00:43:49.264
Now it's a different kind of a hipster species-

1099
00:43:49.294 --> 00:43:49.464
Commuting out for your-

1100
00:43:49.464 --> 00:43:50.313
... walking back and forth.

1101
00:43:50.334 --> 00:43:51.464
For your matcha. Yeah.

1102
00:43:51.474 --> 00:43:54.954
But, yeah, it's very much like you're running on it, you're walking on it.

1103
00:43:54.994 --> 00:43:56.104
It's like a walkway.

1104
00:43:56.154 --> 00:43:56.394
Yeah.

1105
00:43:56.534 --> 00:44:00.354
And to be part, of course, he's a native New Yorker, and

1106
00:44:00.734 --> 00:44:03.734
to be part of that connection with the city, with the river, the East River, the

1107
00:44:03.774 --> 00:44:04.154
whole thing.

1108
00:44:04.674 --> 00:44:07.114
This is the opening track from The Bridge.

1109
00:44:08.418 --> 00:44:12.098
This features Jim Hall on the guitar, Bob Cranshaw on the double bass, with whom

1110
00:44:12.158 --> 00:44:14.278
Sonny would work lots. Ben Riley on the drums.

1111
00:44:14.298 --> 00:44:15.678
This is "Without a Song." It's amazing.

1112
00:44:29.838 --> 00:44:56.398
So

1113
00:44:57.098 --> 00:44:59.358
check out when Sonny comes in and plays the melody.

1114
00:45:03.138 --> 00:45:06.438
He's doing a lot of rubato playing, floating on top,

1115
00:45:07.798 --> 00:45:09.858
going in and out. That was one of his most

1116
00:45:10.958 --> 00:45:12.418
genius stylistic

1117
00:45:14.138 --> 00:45:16.878
stuff. Going in and out of time.

1118
00:45:18.018 --> 00:45:18.698
Woo, in.

1119
00:45:22.698 --> 00:45:25.558
He could be right in there. He could be right in there.

1120
00:45:28.978 --> 00:45:30.138
And then float a little bit.

1121
00:45:36.118 --> 00:45:36.328
Woo. Oh.

1122
00:45:40.178 --> 00:45:43.018
I don't know if it's just because you know the lore of The Bridge-

1123
00:45:43.078 --> 00:45:43.298
Yeah

1124
00:45:43.318 --> 00:45:46.438
... and the sabbatical, but his playing on this album-

1125
00:45:46.818 --> 00:45:46.938
Oh

1126
00:45:47.278 --> 00:45:49.058
... and everything else feels so

1127
00:45:50.518 --> 00:45:50.998
direct.

1128
00:45:51.098 --> 00:45:51.338
Yes.

1129
00:45:51.418 --> 00:45:53.018
Right? So with no fat.

1130
00:45:53.348 --> 00:45:53.348
No fat.

1131
00:45:53.398 --> 00:45:55.598
It's just like, here's what matters.

1132
00:45:55.678 --> 00:45:55.818
Yeah.

1133
00:45:56.018 --> 00:45:57.718
Just real effortlessly,

1134
00:45:58.758 --> 00:45:59.258
here's what I have.

1135
00:45:59.318 --> 00:46:02.738
Yeah, and it's not like he's stripping out the bebop.

1136
00:46:02.768 --> 00:46:04.878
He's very much himself still.

1137
00:46:04.938 --> 00:46:06.038
Or mistakes or anything or-

1138
00:46:06.438 --> 00:46:06.538
No

1139
00:46:06.758 --> 00:46:09.138
... it's all very accepting of what his

1140
00:46:09.958 --> 00:46:10.788
pure intentions are.

1141
00:46:10.818 --> 00:46:11.538
Yeah.

1142
00:46:12.718 --> 00:46:15.418
It is the highest form of improvisation.

1143
00:46:20.208 --> 00:46:20.378
Woo.

1144
00:46:24.298 --> 00:46:24.598
Man.

1145
00:46:25.678 --> 00:46:26.458
Incredible music.

1146
00:46:26.758 --> 00:46:26.768
Yeah.

1147
00:46:26.768 --> 00:46:30.658
"The Bridge," 1962. And so much music over the years.

1148
00:46:30.978 --> 00:46:34.478
He didn't stop playing officially until 2012.

1149
00:46:34.578 --> 00:46:34.678
Yeah.

1150
00:46:34.818 --> 00:46:36.658
Obviously, you slow down as you get older.

1151
00:46:36.918 --> 00:46:37.018
Yeah.

1152
00:46:37.098 --> 00:46:40.478
But he did a bunch of cool stuff. "Alfie's Theme" from the famous movie, "Alfie."

1153
00:46:40.598 --> 00:46:40.898
Yeah.

1154
00:46:41.018 --> 00:46:41.568
All Sonny,

1155
00:46:42.658 --> 00:46:43.658
with Oliver Nelson.

1156
00:46:48.318 --> 00:46:51.778
Man, his rhythmic attenuation, just within the way he

1157
00:46:52.138 --> 00:46:53.578
phrases in the vibrato and-

1158
00:46:53.738 --> 00:46:53.978
Yeah.

1159
00:46:54.198 --> 00:46:57.178
Oh. Super advanced rhythmically, too.

1160
00:46:57.338 --> 00:47:00.718
Did a bunch of great stuff in the '70s. A bunch of great stuff.

1161
00:47:00.778 --> 00:47:02.298
Was playing in the '80s-

1162
00:47:02.358 --> 00:47:02.478
Yeah

1163
00:47:02.488 --> 00:47:03.527
... was doing a lot of stuff.

1164
00:47:03.638 --> 00:47:03.778
That's when I first heard him.

1165
00:47:03.818 --> 00:47:06.538
But even in the '90s, I remember this album coming out.

1166
00:47:06.578 --> 00:47:08.818
This is "Sonny Rollins Plus Three."

1167
00:47:10.158 --> 00:47:10.348
Oh, yeah.

1168
00:47:10.398 --> 00:47:14.278
Again, this is featuring players that he had played with

1169
00:47:15.758 --> 00:47:17.168
in the '50s and '60s-

1170
00:47:17.198 --> 00:47:17.208
Yeah

1171
00:47:17.208 --> 00:47:20.238
... including Tommy Flanagan, including Bob Cranshaw-

1172
00:47:20.278 --> 00:47:20.348
Oh, yeah

1173
00:47:20.398 --> 00:47:21.478
... this time on electric bass.

1174
00:47:22.978 --> 00:47:26.438
Al Foster. This album features Jack DeJohnette and Stephen Scott.

1175
00:47:26.958 --> 00:47:27.198
Right.

1176
00:47:27.418 --> 00:47:27.658
Yeah.

1177
00:47:29.358 --> 00:47:32.678
Kevin Hayes played with Sonny in the '90s, maybe even early

1178
00:47:32.818 --> 00:47:33.598
2000s, too.

1179
00:47:33.748 --> 00:47:33.748
Yeah.

1180
00:47:33.758 --> 00:47:33.928
Playing with-

1181
00:47:33.938 --> 00:47:34.718
Peter Bernstein

1182
00:47:34.758 --> 00:47:35.478
... Peter Bernstein-

1183
00:47:35.548 --> 00:47:35.548
Yeah

1184
00:47:35.548 --> 00:47:39.158
... all the young cats in the day, and then I think he makes his last album in-

1185
00:47:39.168 --> 00:47:39.358
Oh, man. It's so good

1186
00:47:39.378 --> 00:47:41.527
... the early 2000s, I want to say, or mid-2000s.

1187
00:47:41.618 --> 00:47:42.158
Yeah.

1188
00:47:42.218 --> 00:47:44.398
And then officially retires from performing in 2012.

1189
00:47:44.418 --> 00:47:46.658
But he is on an episode of "The Simpsons" in 2013.

1190
00:47:46.858 --> 00:47:50.018
Oh, nice. That was his final. Yeah, even before

1191
00:47:50.238 --> 00:47:54.218
2012, it would be a big deal when he'd do a,

1192
00:47:54.538 --> 00:47:55.678
I don't even know if he was doing a tour.

1193
00:47:55.718 --> 00:47:56.638
It would just be a gig-

1194
00:47:56.778 --> 00:47:56.788
Yeah

1195
00:47:56.788 --> 00:48:00.458
... at a really great concert hall or at a jazz festival in Europe or

1196
00:48:00.478 --> 00:48:00.798
something.

1197
00:48:01.158 --> 00:48:01.168
Yeah.

1198
00:48:01.168 --> 00:48:03.698
And it was always an event. It was like, people were like, "Damn, that's Sonny

1199
00:48:03.738 --> 00:48:06.118
Rollins." So thank you, Nuke.

1200
00:48:06.518 --> 00:48:08.598
Yeah. Thank you, Sonny Rollins. Just amazing.

1201
00:48:08.638 --> 00:48:12.488
And to anybody listening, if you haven't heard Sonny before,

1202
00:48:12.578 --> 00:48:14.918
maybe you've just heard "St. Thomas" or something-

1203
00:48:14.938 --> 00:48:15.048
Yeah

1204
00:48:15.118 --> 00:48:16.878
... now's your time. Go on a deep dive-

1205
00:48:16.898 --> 00:48:16.968
Right

1206
00:48:17.018 --> 00:48:20.578
... and appreciate this great artist's work, because he gave so much to us.

1207
00:48:21.338 --> 00:48:25.018
And please put in the comments, if you're listening to this audio,

1208
00:48:25.178 --> 00:48:27.978
wherever you are, go to the YouTube and just put in the comments, what's your

1209
00:48:27.998 --> 00:48:31.378
favorite? I would love to. I know that there's a bunch of tracks that, I don't

1210
00:48:31.418 --> 00:48:34.098
know, even because some of this stuff, as you've been pulling this together, it's

1211
00:48:34.138 --> 00:48:37.018
been fun for me to discover. Very prolific recorder.

1212
00:48:37.298 --> 00:48:38.558
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

1213
00:48:38.618 --> 00:48:38.818
And so-

1214
00:48:38.858 --> 00:48:39.808
Dozens and dozens of albums

1215
00:48:39.808 --> 00:48:42.338
... tell us your favorite, but especially those hidden ones.

1216
00:48:42.388 --> 00:48:42.388
Oh, my gosh.

1217
00:48:42.398 --> 00:48:45.618
To me, that "More Than You Know" with Monk has always been something.

1218
00:48:45.698 --> 00:48:47.358
I'm surprised people don't know as much.

1219
00:48:47.398 --> 00:48:50.298
I think it's one of his most masterful performances.

1220
00:48:50.358 --> 00:48:51.958
But as we've said, he-

1221
00:48:51.998 --> 00:48:52.658
There's so many

1222
00:48:52.798 --> 00:48:56.008
... there's no, it's all S-tier from what I've heard.

1223
00:48:56.018 --> 00:48:56.758
All S-tier.

1224
00:48:56.918 --> 00:48:56.978
Yeah.

1225
00:48:56.998 --> 00:48:58.878
Or maybe put in your favorite Sonny solo.

1226
00:48:59.098 --> 00:48:59.598
He has some-

1227
00:48:59.618 --> 00:48:59.668
Oh, man

1228
00:48:59.668 --> 00:49:02.758
... of the most legendary solos on his albums and other people's albums.

1229
00:49:02.858 --> 00:49:02.998
Yeah.

1230
00:49:03.618 --> 00:49:05.968
And there's almost too many to choose from, there's so many.

1231
00:49:06.008 --> 00:49:09.848
Yeah, because the "Blue Seven" solo is legendary, iconic.

1232
00:49:09.898 --> 00:49:11.638
It's been broken down by music college.

1233
00:49:11.838 --> 00:49:14.458
There's so many different angles to see the genius of it.

1234
00:49:14.478 --> 00:49:14.727
This is "Blue Seven."

1235
00:49:14.727 --> 00:49:15.578
Oh, yeah. That's what you're playing.

1236
00:49:15.718 --> 00:49:15.798
Yeah.

1237
00:49:15.978 --> 00:49:16.178
But

1238
00:49:17.458 --> 00:49:18.378
it's also not

1239
00:49:19.638 --> 00:49:21.788
an untypical solo of his.

1240
00:49:22.188 --> 00:49:23.598
He's got dozens just like it.

1241
00:49:23.638 --> 00:49:24.818
It's not like he hit the mountaintop on this-

1242
00:49:24.878 --> 00:49:24.968
Yeah

1243
00:49:24.968 --> 00:49:26.118
... and then that was the only time.

1244
00:49:26.418 --> 00:49:26.798
It's true.

1245
00:49:27.038 --> 00:49:27.438
Oh, man.

1246
00:49:27.538 --> 00:49:27.918
Thank you, Peter.

1247
00:49:27.968 --> 00:49:28.758
This is great. Thank you.

1248
00:49:28.838 --> 00:49:29.558
Till next time.

1249
00:49:29.598 --> 00:49:29.977
You'll hear it.

1250
00:49:35.168 --> 00:49:35.858
Woo.

1251
00:49:47.618 --> 00:49:48.678
A little dip.