WEBVTT 00:00:03.030 --> 00:00:06.030 Matt Abrahams: In business and in communication, we focus too much 00:00:06.030 --> 00:00:10.800 on return on investment instead of looking at return on kindness. 00:00:11.160 --> 00:00:14.280 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:14.280 --> 00:00:16.170 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:16.410 --> 00:00:19.350 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:19.350 --> 00:00:22.599 Today I look forward to speaking with Bonnie Hayden Cheng. 00:00:22.740 --> 00:00:26.040 Bonnie is a professor of management at City University of Hong Kong. 00:00:26.360 --> 00:00:29.540 Her research explores how workplace behaviors affect interpersonal 00:00:29.540 --> 00:00:30.950 dynamics and wellbeing. 00:00:31.130 --> 00:00:34.100 She studies things such as kindness and inclusion. 00:00:34.460 --> 00:00:38.300 She's the author of the book, "The Return On Kindness: How Kind 00:00:38.300 --> 00:00:42.800 Leadership Wins Talent, Earns Loyalty, and Builds Successful Companies". 00:00:42.950 --> 00:00:43.580 Welcome, Bonnie. 00:00:43.580 --> 00:00:46.459 I am super excited to have you here and it's great to be in Hong Kong. 00:00:46.690 --> 00:00:47.710 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Welcome to Hong Kong. 00:00:47.710 --> 00:00:48.820 I'm thrilled to be here. 00:00:48.849 --> 00:00:49.120 Matt Abrahams: Thanks. 00:00:49.120 --> 00:00:49.839 Shall we get started? 00:00:49.930 --> 00:00:50.470 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yes. 00:00:50.559 --> 00:00:53.530 Matt Abrahams: Your work focuses on kindness and its impact on work. 00:00:53.530 --> 00:00:57.400 Can you define what you mean by kindness and share some of the value it can 00:00:57.400 --> 00:00:59.199 provide to all of us in the workplace? 00:00:59.260 --> 00:01:00.040 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Absolutely. 00:01:00.040 --> 00:01:03.580 So in the book, I actually focus on kindness and leadership. 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:08.520 So I define kind leadership as taking intentional action in 00:01:08.520 --> 00:01:12.570 service to and for the betterment of the people under your care. 00:01:12.630 --> 00:01:16.110 And this touches on so many different aspects that a leader 00:01:16.140 --> 00:01:17.940 has authority over, right? 00:01:17.940 --> 00:01:22.440 It could be about making a people's day better through minor compliments or 00:01:22.440 --> 00:01:25.080 feedback or just making small chitchat. 00:01:25.140 --> 00:01:28.320 But it could also be major changes that a leader takes on 00:01:28.320 --> 00:01:30.870 to reduce administrative burdens. 00:01:30.929 --> 00:01:34.920 It's also more of a worldview because kindness isn't something that you 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:37.440 just do when you enter the workplace. 00:01:37.470 --> 00:01:40.740 It's something that you really have to take on in the way that you see the 00:01:40.740 --> 00:01:45.100 world that embodies all of these values around these words that you associate 00:01:45.100 --> 00:01:49.930 with kindness, maybe generosity and humility and compassion and empathy. 00:01:49.990 --> 00:01:54.280 So it really is this way that you interact with people, human to human. 00:01:54.460 --> 00:01:58.180 Some of the value of kindness in the workplace is what I call the 00:01:58.270 --> 00:02:00.580 return on kindness or the ROK. 00:02:00.700 --> 00:02:04.600 What's interesting about the ROK is it's a non-linear equation, right? 00:02:04.600 --> 00:02:06.190 Because kindness, multiplies. 00:02:06.210 --> 00:02:07.290 It expands. 00:02:07.590 --> 00:02:11.039 And so some of the research that shows the benefits of kindness comes from 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:16.170 meta-analysis research that showed over 3,500 business units and over 00:02:16.170 --> 00:02:21.150 50,000 employees that organizations that could be categorized as having 00:02:21.150 --> 00:02:25.020 a kind culture, which is different for every organization, right? 00:02:25.020 --> 00:02:29.540 No matter how they define their values around kindness organizations that have 00:02:29.540 --> 00:02:34.700 this kind of culture around acts of civic virtue or helping or showing support 00:02:34.700 --> 00:02:39.590 for people, those are organizations that end up having employees that want 00:02:39.590 --> 00:02:41.329 to stay in the organization, right? 00:02:41.329 --> 00:02:44.300 They're less likely to call in sick, they're more committed, 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:45.800 their performance goes up. 00:02:45.860 --> 00:02:49.790 But there's also benefits for the company in terms of higher productivity 00:02:49.790 --> 00:02:52.250 and efficiency and even lower costs. 00:02:52.550 --> 00:02:55.520 Matt Abrahams: So it sounds to me like kindness affects not 00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:57.570 just the people, but the process. 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:02.060 And then the experience that we have, and I think the measuring of return 00:03:02.060 --> 00:03:04.730 on kindness is really powerful. 00:03:04.760 --> 00:03:09.260 Because return on investment is really looking at the outcome and 00:03:09.320 --> 00:03:12.800 kindness, return on kindness, is really looking at the experience, 00:03:12.890 --> 00:03:14.990 and I think that's a wonderful shift. 00:03:15.235 --> 00:03:21.505 I'm curious, when you try to put in place and implement kindness as a practice, 00:03:21.535 --> 00:03:25.375 kindness in your own work, what are some of the things you have found really help? 00:03:25.405 --> 00:03:28.555 Is it taking time to just listen and be present? 00:03:28.585 --> 00:03:31.555 Is it giving people extra autonomy? 00:03:31.555 --> 00:03:35.815 What does kindness actually look like when it's operationalized in organizations? 00:03:36.060 --> 00:03:39.840 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: So for leaders, I actually put together a framework around 00:03:39.870 --> 00:03:42.690 how to help leaders rise to kindness. 00:03:42.750 --> 00:03:43.890 And kind leadership. 00:03:43.920 --> 00:03:48.420 And it's an easy framework to remember because it spells out RISE. 00:03:48.690 --> 00:03:51.090 So the R in rise is about role modeling. 00:03:51.260 --> 00:03:53.540 So it really starts from the top, right? 00:03:53.540 --> 00:03:58.700 It takes a leader who commits to being kind and role modeling the behaviors 00:03:58.790 --> 00:04:00.410 that bring that kindness forward. 00:04:00.530 --> 00:04:04.970 It's easy to be kind when things are going well in an organization, 00:04:04.970 --> 00:04:08.899 but in times of stress, how are you really enacting that kindness and 00:04:08.899 --> 00:04:10.945 showing compassionate for your people? 00:04:11.209 --> 00:04:14.480 The I is about intentional flexibility. 00:04:14.540 --> 00:04:18.789 We all have different challenges at different times, and at some point 00:04:18.789 --> 00:04:22.360 it's gonna be the leader's challenge who needs support from the people. 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:26.080 So how can we show flexibility for our people? 00:04:26.140 --> 00:04:30.490 And that's not just in, you know, working time, but it's also in workload. 00:04:30.490 --> 00:04:33.130 It's also in caring for their mental health. 00:04:33.190 --> 00:04:36.580 It's also in the flexibility in structure of the workday. 00:04:36.610 --> 00:04:39.849 It touches on so many different aspects and there's so much leaders 00:04:39.849 --> 00:04:41.740 can do there in terms of flexibility. 00:04:41.815 --> 00:04:45.055 The S in rise is about supportive action. 00:04:45.205 --> 00:04:47.395 Kindness is manifested in action. 00:04:47.455 --> 00:04:50.725 So you could say that you're a kind leader all you want, but if people aren't 00:04:50.725 --> 00:04:53.215 seeing that, are you really a kind leader? 00:04:53.245 --> 00:04:55.435 So how can you support your people? 00:04:55.465 --> 00:04:57.445 Could it be emotional support? 00:04:57.445 --> 00:05:00.595 Could it be instrumental support, providing resources so that 00:05:00.625 --> 00:05:02.005 they can get their job done? 00:05:02.065 --> 00:05:06.595 A lot of times people get stuck not because of capability issues, 00:05:06.595 --> 00:05:10.135 but it's more about resource or admin or red tape issues. 00:05:10.345 --> 00:05:12.295 And then the E is about energy. 00:05:12.355 --> 00:05:16.015 A leader's energy really carries so much weight. 00:05:16.075 --> 00:05:19.855 A leader can enter a room and spread positive energy, or they 00:05:19.855 --> 00:05:22.435 can spread negative energy, and that's just gonna affect your 00:05:22.435 --> 00:05:23.905 people for the rest of the day. 00:05:24.085 --> 00:05:27.535 So how can you use your energy to uplift your people? 00:05:27.810 --> 00:05:29.969 Matt Abrahams: Thanks for helping all of us rise to the 00:05:29.969 --> 00:05:31.740 occasion and be kinder leaders. 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:36.480 It strikes me that each one of those components in RISE helps also build 00:05:36.480 --> 00:05:38.430 a psychologically safe environment. 00:05:38.490 --> 00:05:42.060 An environment where people feel comfortable speaking up, being heard, 00:05:42.060 --> 00:05:45.000 and maybe even taking risks, which we know from a tremendous amount 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:46.590 of research is all to the better. 00:05:46.794 --> 00:05:51.325 Are there things that employees can do in their interactions? 00:05:51.385 --> 00:05:54.205 Clearly you've delineated what a good leader can do, but if I'm 00:05:54.205 --> 00:05:57.265 part of an organization that has kindness at its core, what are my 00:05:57.265 --> 00:05:59.275 responsibilities as an employee? 00:05:59.635 --> 00:06:02.365 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yeah, so actually the RISE model, it's interesting 00:06:02.365 --> 00:06:06.205 because the way we define leaders is not necessarily someone who holds a 00:06:06.205 --> 00:06:11.335 position of authority, but leaders can be anyone in an organization, and in fact, 00:06:11.365 --> 00:06:15.905 every single person in an organization should be showing leadership qualities. 00:06:15.965 --> 00:06:20.375 So the RISE model absolutely applies to everyone in an organization. 00:06:20.375 --> 00:06:23.945 So whether it's a team leader or a team member, thinking about how to 00:06:23.945 --> 00:06:28.715 role model those behaviors that you want your team to also implement. 00:06:28.805 --> 00:06:32.735 It's about thinking about how to be flexible with my team members in 00:06:32.735 --> 00:06:35.525 workload and in the way that we interact. 00:06:35.555 --> 00:06:39.335 It's about showing support and also bringing that energy to the team. 00:06:39.550 --> 00:06:43.540 So the RISE model really has quite generalizable applications, 00:06:43.540 --> 00:06:46.600 which I think makes it a lot more of a practical application. 00:06:46.990 --> 00:06:50.440 Matt Abrahams: It seems to me that it puts a responsibility, a pleasurable 00:06:50.440 --> 00:06:53.980 one often, to be supportive, to take the time to care, and that 00:06:53.980 --> 00:06:55.480 helps people feel connected. 00:06:55.540 --> 00:06:59.980 But it is something that we need to reinforce, and I think a leader can do 00:06:59.980 --> 00:07:03.820 it, be it situational leader, authority based leader, whatever, but also all of 00:07:03.820 --> 00:07:05.800 us can take the time to recognize success. 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:06.400 So thank you for that. 00:07:06.900 --> 00:07:09.930 I feel bad 'cause I think this question might be unkind and that's 00:07:09.930 --> 00:07:13.110 not what we're here for, but are there times where being kind at 00:07:13.110 --> 00:07:15.570 work can put you at a disadvantage? 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:18.390 I can imagine that being kind and building this type of supportive 00:07:18.450 --> 00:07:21.270 culture that you're talking about can slow down efficiency. 00:07:21.300 --> 00:07:25.560 It can cause people to be so focused on the socio-emotional wellbeing 00:07:25.590 --> 00:07:26.700 that things don't get done. 00:07:26.790 --> 00:07:28.590 Is there a limit to kindness? 00:07:28.975 --> 00:07:30.745 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yeah, that's an interesting question. 00:07:30.775 --> 00:07:34.555 Going back to the definition of kindness, we can also make a distinction 00:07:34.555 --> 00:07:36.655 between kindness and niceness. 00:07:36.775 --> 00:07:39.025 So if we think about leadership, right? 00:07:39.025 --> 00:07:42.685 A nice leader is someone who does things because it's easy, right? 00:07:42.685 --> 00:07:45.355 You want to be friends with your people. 00:07:45.355 --> 00:07:46.795 You want to be the nice boss. 00:07:46.795 --> 00:07:49.125 You wanna be the cool boss, the fun boss. 00:07:49.165 --> 00:07:53.510 You want to please the majority, and that's going to ultimately cause you 00:07:53.510 --> 00:07:58.610 to avoid making tough decisions or avoid tough conversations because you 00:07:58.610 --> 00:08:00.170 don't wanna hurt people's feelings. 00:08:00.200 --> 00:08:01.580 Kindness is different. 00:08:01.580 --> 00:08:04.820 Kindness really embodies this aspect of toughness. 00:08:05.050 --> 00:08:09.940 Because being a kind leader doesn't mean that you are letting things slide. 00:08:09.970 --> 00:08:13.510 So can a kind leader also hold high expectations and high 00:08:13.510 --> 00:08:14.680 standards of their people? 00:08:14.740 --> 00:08:15.640 Absolutely. 00:08:15.670 --> 00:08:19.180 Being a kind leader doesn't negate all the things that need 00:08:19.180 --> 00:08:20.980 to get done in an organization. 00:08:20.980 --> 00:08:25.100 And in fact, when you have kindness as the base or the foundation, it 00:08:25.100 --> 00:08:29.450 actually allows leaders to hold these tough conversations with their people 00:08:29.450 --> 00:08:33.560 because their people trust that they have their best interests at heart. 00:08:33.860 --> 00:08:36.530 Matt Abrahams: I really like that distinction between niceness and kindness. 00:08:36.530 --> 00:08:40.070 When I was first a manager, when I was an operator running organizations, 00:08:40.130 --> 00:08:44.005 I so wanted people to like me that I really went outta my way to be nice. 00:08:44.475 --> 00:08:49.455 And I was just taken advantage of, sometimes purposefully, sometimes not. 00:08:49.455 --> 00:08:50.295 But I was miserable. 00:08:50.295 --> 00:08:53.745 My boss called me over and her words were, you can be kind, but you 00:08:53.745 --> 00:08:55.395 don't let people walk all over you. 00:08:55.395 --> 00:08:58.875 And so I lived that definitional distinction that you just made. 00:08:59.205 --> 00:09:01.795 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: It's almost like a curvilinear relationship, right? 00:09:01.814 --> 00:09:06.270 So if your kindness is swinging too far to the point where you're getting to a 00:09:06.270 --> 00:09:11.010 nice leadership position where people do walk all over you, then you perhaps have 00:09:11.010 --> 00:09:15.689 to swing back a little bit more to embody the toughness that's part of the kindness. 00:09:15.900 --> 00:09:16.140 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:09:16.140 --> 00:09:20.609 I think as a parent, we're often taught, and you read about this notion of, it's 00:09:20.609 --> 00:09:24.239 not really tough love, but you have to be tough, you have to be firm, and from that 00:09:24.239 --> 00:09:26.459 kindness can really have meaning, right? 00:09:26.459 --> 00:09:29.130 If you're just nice, there's no deep part of that. 00:09:29.189 --> 00:09:30.599 I wanna dig a little bit more. 00:09:30.599 --> 00:09:33.479 You've made the distinction between being kind and being nice. 00:09:33.569 --> 00:09:38.185 I have always thought of kindness and candor is almost opposites. 00:09:38.245 --> 00:09:41.905 Where you know, we are in an interaction and I have something to say. 00:09:41.905 --> 00:09:44.515 The polite thing to do, the kind thing to do might not be as 00:09:44.515 --> 00:09:46.195 candid as perhaps I should be. 00:09:46.255 --> 00:09:48.805 As a leader, as a peer, we have to give feedback. 00:09:48.805 --> 00:09:50.695 We have to sometimes challenge people. 00:09:50.755 --> 00:09:54.295 What advice and guidance do you have about how to be candid 00:09:54.355 --> 00:09:56.035 and direct, but also be kind? 00:09:56.090 --> 00:09:59.210 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: So I think, again, going back to the definition where kind 00:09:59.210 --> 00:10:03.800 leadership is really embodied within this aspect of toughness, I think the 00:10:03.800 --> 00:10:08.030 candor comes into play because being a kind leader doesn't mean that you're not 00:10:08.030 --> 00:10:11.780 giving honest and direct feedback because that's actually something that can be 00:10:11.780 --> 00:10:14.450 constructive and valuable for your people. 00:10:14.570 --> 00:10:18.020 And I think authenticity really plays a key role here. 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:20.390 That, as well as intentionality. 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:25.700 If a leader is really approaching these conversations with positive intent to, 00:10:25.760 --> 00:10:30.350 the easy thing to do would be to ignore or to not have these conversations. 00:10:30.410 --> 00:10:35.360 I have better things to do with my time, but to really take that time and put into 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:40.070 development with your people, and the way that you say it, of course, matters, the 00:10:40.070 --> 00:10:45.170 framing, but if you're telling people with kindness as the underlying through point, 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:47.270 I think that message is better received. 00:10:47.520 --> 00:10:49.230 Matt Abrahams: I wanna come back to the framing and the actual 00:10:49.230 --> 00:10:52.020 communication 'cause as you know, and everybody listening knows, 00:10:52.020 --> 00:10:53.490 that's really important to me. 00:10:53.520 --> 00:10:59.910 But I wanna really emphasize that point, that being kind is being truthful and 00:10:59.910 --> 00:11:04.890 being kind is being candid because you are trying to help the person, or the team, 00:11:04.890 --> 00:11:07.050 or the company be the best that it can be. 00:11:07.110 --> 00:11:12.214 And one of those charges is to, in a kind way, be very direct, 00:11:12.214 --> 00:11:13.925 and I appreciate that distinction. 00:11:14.074 --> 00:11:17.645 Let's talk a little bit about the communication of kindness. 00:11:17.854 --> 00:11:21.755 Are there things, frameworks, approaches that you have seen in your research 00:11:21.755 --> 00:11:25.775 or your own personal experience that helps people communicate kindly? 00:11:26.045 --> 00:11:29.555 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: I think one thing for leaders to do is around active 00:11:29.555 --> 00:11:33.964 listening, but for some individuals, I think maybe for newer generations 00:11:34.110 --> 00:11:38.850 it's an abstract concept because they grew up on their phones and so 00:11:38.850 --> 00:11:42.990 they haven't had that practice of learning social communication skills. 00:11:43.290 --> 00:11:47.880 So I actually ran this with my students, an active listening exercise. 00:11:47.910 --> 00:11:50.730 They only had to do it for three minutes, where they engage with an 00:11:50.730 --> 00:11:55.630 interaction partner, and they had to show that they are actively listening. 00:11:55.689 --> 00:11:59.740 And it completely surprised them that it's not a passive activity, right? 00:11:59.740 --> 00:12:04.390 So active listening is really about asking questions, showing that you 00:12:04.390 --> 00:12:06.700 are attentive through your nonverbals. 00:12:06.790 --> 00:12:10.689 It's about empathizing, it's about clarifying your assumptions or 00:12:10.689 --> 00:12:12.520 even repeating back what you hear. 00:12:12.610 --> 00:12:16.030 And so the feedback I was getting from the students was, it was really 00:12:16.030 --> 00:12:19.120 difficult, especially if you're, you know, listening to something that 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:21.270 you're not particularly interested in. 00:12:21.520 --> 00:12:24.645 But when we bring that back to the workplace and think about leaders, 00:12:24.704 --> 00:12:29.595 there's a lot that they can do in terms of mindful connection between them 00:12:29.595 --> 00:12:31.245 and their individual team members. 00:12:31.275 --> 00:12:35.625 Just being there, being in the moment and being present with your conversation 00:12:35.625 --> 00:12:40.725 partner, really shows, I think, the intent around, I'm here with you now. 00:12:40.814 --> 00:12:42.285 You have my attention. 00:12:42.345 --> 00:12:45.675 Let's talk about what's bothering you, and let's talk about how I can help. 00:12:46.070 --> 00:12:49.280 Matt Abrahams: There's a directness to the kind communication you're talking 00:12:49.280 --> 00:12:50.900 about that I think is really important. 00:12:50.900 --> 00:12:55.160 I think a lot of people think kind communication is softer or 00:12:55.160 --> 00:12:58.490 is more ambiguous, and in fact, what I hear you saying, is that 00:12:58.520 --> 00:12:59.660 there's a directness to it. 00:12:59.720 --> 00:13:02.090 Get the bottom line up there, make it clear. 00:13:02.150 --> 00:13:04.910 But what I really find interesting is when I asked you, are there things that 00:13:04.910 --> 00:13:08.960 we can do to communicate better, the very first thing you said is listening. 00:13:09.050 --> 00:13:14.230 And it strikes me that empathy, kindness, being present are really important, and 00:13:14.230 --> 00:13:15.610 I'm curious to get your thought on this. 00:13:15.610 --> 00:13:19.450 What really struck me as you were speaking is that tone matters, how 00:13:19.450 --> 00:13:21.220 you say it, the tone you inflect. 00:13:21.250 --> 00:13:24.220 I can say something very sternly, very directly, that comes from a 00:13:24.220 --> 00:13:25.750 place of kindness and compassion. 00:13:25.780 --> 00:13:29.935 But if I say it in a tone that mirrors that value, I think 00:13:29.935 --> 00:13:31.105 it goes down much better. 00:13:31.375 --> 00:13:33.895 What do you think about the role of tone in kindness? 00:13:33.985 --> 00:13:35.005 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: I'm glad you brought that up. 00:13:35.005 --> 00:13:36.265 Super important. 00:13:36.325 --> 00:13:40.825 And I think feedback about your tone being something that's negative or 00:13:40.825 --> 00:13:45.445 comes across as negative and isn't conveying kind of your positive intent, 00:13:45.505 --> 00:13:47.335 it's something we can practice, right? 00:13:47.335 --> 00:13:51.835 Just like we practice giving speeches and presentations, and tone could 00:13:51.835 --> 00:13:54.025 be something that we really work on. 00:13:54.055 --> 00:13:57.085 Just like we can work on the speed, the framing, and the 00:13:57.085 --> 00:13:58.705 messaging of our communication. 00:13:59.060 --> 00:14:01.430 Matt Abrahams: There's a really interesting technique we teach and 00:14:01.430 --> 00:14:02.870 it has a lot of research on it. 00:14:02.930 --> 00:14:06.830 It comes from the world of acting, which is really, if you think to yourself 00:14:06.830 --> 00:14:11.060 about the tone and the emotion you want to have, by reflecting on an experience 00:14:11.060 --> 00:14:15.110 that you've had where that was present, and you recall that before you have 00:14:15.110 --> 00:14:19.220 a significant communication, you're much more likely to embody that tone. 00:14:19.220 --> 00:14:22.880 So if I am going to give you some constructive feedback, but I wanna 00:14:22.880 --> 00:14:26.300 come from a place of kindness, I might remind myself of a time where 00:14:26.360 --> 00:14:29.810 somebody did that to me or I did that to them, and that puts me in that mode. 00:14:30.079 --> 00:14:32.300 Tone is one of those things that when we're stressed, when we're 00:14:32.300 --> 00:14:34.280 under pressure, goes out the window. 00:14:34.280 --> 00:14:36.140 So really focusing on it, I think makes sense. 00:14:36.230 --> 00:14:37.189 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yeah, exactly. 00:14:37.280 --> 00:14:38.240 Just to add to that. 00:14:38.445 --> 00:14:42.465 Being able to pause if you are really heated up or something 00:14:42.465 --> 00:14:43.875 is really triggering you. 00:14:43.935 --> 00:14:46.695 I think a lot of times people feel the pressure to fill in 00:14:46.695 --> 00:14:50.745 these gaps or these silences, and so they speak without thinking. 00:14:50.835 --> 00:14:54.005 And again, that goes back to the listening, why listening is the probably 00:14:54.005 --> 00:14:56.505 most important skill for a leader. 00:14:56.565 --> 00:14:58.335 But don't be afraid to pause, right? 00:14:58.335 --> 00:14:59.535 Or say, I need a minute. 00:14:59.535 --> 00:15:00.675 I just need to process. 00:15:00.675 --> 00:15:01.905 I need to think about this. 00:15:01.905 --> 00:15:03.075 Let me get back to you. 00:15:03.450 --> 00:15:07.440 Matt Abrahams: I wanna go back to building culture of kindness, and you 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:09.060 shared a lot of what the attributes are. 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:12.120 I'm curious to get your thoughts about the actual building of it. 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:16.590 It seems to me that it starts before somebody actually gets employed. 00:15:16.590 --> 00:15:18.180 It's part of the interview process. 00:15:18.180 --> 00:15:21.510 You're talking about it, you're assessing it, you're demonstrating it. 00:15:21.600 --> 00:15:25.775 Are there other ways that people can go about building a culture of 00:15:25.775 --> 00:15:28.655 kindness, and then I'm gonna add a maybe even more challenging issue. 00:15:28.715 --> 00:15:32.225 How do you transition into a culture of kindness when 00:15:32.225 --> 00:15:33.725 perhaps you're not part of one? 00:15:34.265 --> 00:15:37.025 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: So in the book, I actually unpack a four step 00:15:37.025 --> 00:15:39.365 process to building kind cultures. 00:15:39.545 --> 00:15:44.165 Cultures have to be designed intentionally from the top, otherwise 00:15:44.165 --> 00:15:46.055 it's never going to trickle down. 00:15:46.055 --> 00:15:48.574 It's never gonna scale across the organization. 00:15:48.635 --> 00:15:51.725 So it's about starting with a values refresh. 00:15:52.105 --> 00:15:56.305 Whatever your company's values are, where it's written on the website or 00:15:56.365 --> 00:16:01.285 written on company walls, how are you bringing that kindness forward in action. 00:16:01.345 --> 00:16:06.715 If people aren't seeing kindness or a related word in action every 00:16:06.715 --> 00:16:10.285 day, especially from leaders, they're never gonna believe 00:16:10.285 --> 00:16:12.025 that's one of our culture words. 00:16:12.145 --> 00:16:14.365 Matt Abrahams: So it's not just a poster that says be kind. 00:16:14.365 --> 00:16:15.204 It's the action. 00:16:15.265 --> 00:16:15.954 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Exactly. 00:16:15.954 --> 00:16:17.485 And then you mentioned interviews. 00:16:17.545 --> 00:16:21.535 This should be something that the interviewer is screaming 00:16:21.535 --> 00:16:22.735 from the rooftops, right? 00:16:22.735 --> 00:16:24.925 That this is our culture. 00:16:24.985 --> 00:16:27.204 We don't tolerate unkindness. 00:16:27.445 --> 00:16:30.625 And then the storytelling aspect of it, it's not just saying that 00:16:30.625 --> 00:16:35.095 we have a culture of kindness, but really shining examples of how that 00:16:35.095 --> 00:16:39.565 kindness has been manifested through different avenues, different channels. 00:16:40.140 --> 00:16:41.250 Matt Abrahams: That's really powerful. 00:16:41.250 --> 00:16:42.810 Were there other steps in that process? 00:16:43.110 --> 00:16:46.500 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: One other one, which is really actioning kindness. 00:16:46.530 --> 00:16:51.420 So again, from the top, how are you building kindness into your metrics? 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:54.600 How are you making sure that kindness is protected? 00:16:54.700 --> 00:16:58.454 A positive kind culture should be protected at all costs. 00:16:58.454 --> 00:17:03.314 So how are you dealing with those unkind high performers, right? 00:17:03.375 --> 00:17:07.125 The way that companies deal with these types of individuals speaks 00:17:07.125 --> 00:17:09.704 volumes about what they prioritize. 00:17:09.795 --> 00:17:13.905 And unfortunately, as we see, too many organizations value one over the other. 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:18.930 Matt Abrahams: That notion of protecting kindness is one that stands out to me. 00:17:18.990 --> 00:17:23.760 What are some ways you have seen or you advise that people protect kindness? 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:27.720 I can imagine, I'm a big fan and I learned this from my kids' kindergarten 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:29.310 teachers, rewarding the positive. 00:17:29.430 --> 00:17:33.385 So one way to protect it is to really highlight and reward acts of kindness, but 00:17:33.385 --> 00:17:35.035 what are some ways to protect kindness? 00:17:35.305 --> 00:17:36.565 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yeah, so that's one. 00:17:36.565 --> 00:17:40.765 Rewarding kindness is probably the easy one, but you need consistency. 00:17:40.795 --> 00:17:44.005 And when you think about how kindness starts from the top and 00:17:44.005 --> 00:17:47.965 it really needs to be leader led, how is your company thinking about, 00:17:47.965 --> 00:17:49.675 for example, succession planning? 00:17:49.705 --> 00:17:55.005 Are you targeting individuals that embody kindness and would bring that 00:17:55.005 --> 00:18:00.225 to life in the succession plan, or are you really prioritizing individuals who 00:18:00.315 --> 00:18:03.135 are maybe high performers, but unkind. 00:18:03.165 --> 00:18:05.445 That signals a lot to the organization. 00:18:05.625 --> 00:18:09.105 Matt Abrahams: I was very fortunate to interview world famous women's 00:18:09.105 --> 00:18:10.465 basketball coach, Tara VanDerveer. 00:18:10.485 --> 00:18:14.025 She's emeritus at Stanford now, and she talked about one of the things 00:18:14.025 --> 00:18:18.045 that was really important to her in her teams was not the number of point 00:18:18.045 --> 00:18:22.510 scores or the number of wins won, but the kindness that the teammates had 00:18:22.510 --> 00:18:26.050 towards each other and towards their opponents and towards the referees. 00:18:26.050 --> 00:18:29.890 And taking that and showing it and really supporting and protecting 00:18:29.890 --> 00:18:31.120 it was really important to her. 00:18:31.120 --> 00:18:32.500 And I like that you're emphasizing that. 00:18:33.885 --> 00:18:36.885 So before we end, I like to ask everybody three questions. 00:18:36.885 --> 00:18:39.915 One I make up just for you, and two I've been asking everybody for a long time. 00:18:39.915 --> 00:18:40.485 Are you up for that? 00:18:40.575 --> 00:18:40.905 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Sure. 00:18:41.145 --> 00:18:43.335 Matt Abrahams: So you wrote this great book on kindness. 00:18:43.365 --> 00:18:47.235 What do you hope is the key takeaway people have from the book? 00:18:47.625 --> 00:18:50.970 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: I would say the key takeaway would be to inspire 00:18:51.030 --> 00:18:56.070 kindness, to inspire a movement around kindness, and to inspire communities 00:18:56.070 --> 00:19:00.150 where people prioritize kindness as the number one important thing. 00:19:00.210 --> 00:19:03.810 And on a day-to-day basis, that could be something also that 00:19:03.810 --> 00:19:04.920 people take away with them. 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:09.550 It's when you wake up every day and you are dreading going to work, how 00:19:09.550 --> 00:19:13.690 can you make that experience a little bit more positive for your people? 00:19:13.750 --> 00:19:15.430 Kindness also reciprocates. 00:19:15.430 --> 00:19:19.270 It boomerangs back to you, and so when you are showing that kindness, 00:19:19.270 --> 00:19:20.950 it will come back to you as well. 00:19:21.370 --> 00:19:23.680 Matt Abrahams: I love this idea of a kindness boomerang. 00:19:23.680 --> 00:19:24.910 It comes right back to you. 00:19:25.090 --> 00:19:27.970 And again, emphasizing that kindness is a way of being. 00:19:27.970 --> 00:19:32.379 It's not just that your company sets up volunteer opportunities in the community, 00:19:32.379 --> 00:19:35.410 which is absolutely important, but it's the kindness that we show each 00:19:35.410 --> 00:19:37.180 other in the day-to-day interaction. 00:19:37.230 --> 00:19:41.160 So question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:19:41.460 --> 00:19:44.040 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: There's too many to name here, but I will say 00:19:44.040 --> 00:19:48.540 that some qualities of communicators that I admire is storytelling. 00:19:48.750 --> 00:19:53.550 Someone who's able to really bring the picture to life, make 00:19:53.550 --> 00:19:57.000 something very vivid, and convey a message through a story. 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.940 I think it's so powerful, but that doesn't mean that we all have to 00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:03.930 be fantastic storytellers, but I think underlying storytelling is 00:20:03.930 --> 00:20:05.760 really this notion of authenticity. 00:20:06.135 --> 00:20:10.635 So authentic communicators, they don't have to be perfect storytellers. 00:20:10.635 --> 00:20:13.035 They don't have to be perfect in their speech, but someone who 00:20:13.035 --> 00:20:16.095 really speaks from the heart, I think that's quite transformative. 00:20:16.455 --> 00:20:18.765 Matt Abrahams: I'm not surprised that somebody who studies kindness would 00:20:18.765 --> 00:20:21.615 be talking about speaking from the heart, being authentic, being able 00:20:21.615 --> 00:20:23.055 to connect to people through story. 00:20:23.055 --> 00:20:23.535 Thank you. 00:20:23.925 --> 00:20:27.150 Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a 00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:29.030 successful communication recipe? 00:20:30.070 --> 00:20:32.985 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: I would say curiosity, assuming 00:20:32.985 --> 00:20:35.485 positive intent, and trust. 00:20:35.834 --> 00:20:39.014 Matt Abrahams: Trust, assuming positive intent, and curiosity. 00:20:39.044 --> 00:20:42.584 Three really powerful ingredients, and I like this idea of 00:20:42.584 --> 00:20:43.995 assuming positive intent. 00:20:44.054 --> 00:20:50.084 A lot of us set up acrimony, challenge, conflict because we assume the other 00:20:50.084 --> 00:20:51.945 person doesn't have that good intent. 00:20:52.245 --> 00:20:56.715 Well, I appreciate you sharing good intent with all of us and challenging us 00:20:56.715 --> 00:20:59.594 all to rise to the occasion of kindness. 00:20:59.685 --> 00:21:03.280 And really helping us change the metrics for how we work. 00:21:03.310 --> 00:21:06.280 It's about return on kindness, not just return on investment. 00:21:06.520 --> 00:21:09.370 Bonnie, thank you so much for joining me here in Hong Kong 00:21:09.370 --> 00:21:10.570 and for sharing your wisdom. 00:21:10.630 --> 00:21:11.620 Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Thank you for having me. 00:21:14.110 --> 00:21:16.360 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:21:16.360 --> 00:21:18.370 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:21:18.375 --> 00:21:21.645 To learn more about how to establish a productive work culture, please 00:21:21.645 --> 00:21:26.895 listen to episode 93 with Celine Teoh and episode 132 with Amy Edmondson. 00:21:27.135 --> 00:21:31.965 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:21:32.295 --> 00:21:33.855 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:21:34.169 --> 00:21:36.510 With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:21:36.659 --> 00:21:39.899 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:21:39.929 --> 00:21:41.669 Subscribe and rate us. 00:21:41.729 --> 00:21:44.699 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:21:44.790 --> 00:21:48.899 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:21:48.899 --> 00:21:50.790 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:54.510 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:21:54.540 --> 00:22:00.629 AMAs, Ask Matt Anything, and much more, at faster smarter.io/premium.