Matt Abrahams: In business and in communication, we focus too much
on return on investment instead of looking at return on kindness.
My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at
Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today I look forward to speaking with Bonnie Hayden Cheng.
Bonnie is a professor of management at City University of Hong Kong.
Her research explores how workplace behaviors affect interpersonal
dynamics and wellbeing.
She studies things such as kindness and inclusion.
She's the author of the book, "The Return On Kindness: How Kind
Leadership Wins Talent, Earns Loyalty, and Builds Successful Companies".
Welcome, Bonnie.
I am super excited to have you here and it's great to be in Hong Kong.
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Welcome to Hong Kong.
I'm thrilled to be here.
Matt Abrahams: Thanks.
Shall we get started?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yes.
Matt Abrahams: Your work focuses on kindness and its impact on work.
Can you define what you mean by kindness and share some of the value it can
provide to all of us in the workplace?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Absolutely.
So in the book, I actually focus on kindness and leadership.
So I define kind leadership as taking intentional action in
service to and for the betterment of the people under your care.
And this touches on so many different aspects that a leader
has authority over, right?
It could be about making a people's day better through minor compliments or
feedback or just making small chitchat.
But it could also be major changes that a leader takes on
to reduce administrative burdens.
It's also more of a worldview because kindness isn't something that you
just do when you enter the workplace.
It's something that you really have to take on in the way that you see the
world that embodies all of these values around these words that you associate
with kindness, maybe generosity and humility and compassion and empathy.
So it really is this way that you interact with people, human to human.
Some of the value of kindness in the workplace is what I call the
return on kindness or the ROK.
What's interesting about the ROK is it's a non-linear equation, right?
Because kindness, multiplies.
It expands.
And so some of the research that shows the benefits of kindness comes from
meta-analysis research that showed over 3,500 business units and over
50,000 employees that organizations that could be categorized as having
a kind culture, which is different for every organization, right?
No matter how they define their values around kindness organizations that have
this kind of culture around acts of civic virtue or helping or showing support
for people, those are organizations that end up having employees that want
to stay in the organization, right?
They're less likely to call in sick, they're more committed,
their performance goes up.
But there's also benefits for the company in terms of higher productivity
and efficiency and even lower costs.
Matt Abrahams: So it sounds to me like kindness affects not
just the people, but the process.
And then the experience that we have, and I think the measuring of return
on kindness is really powerful.
Because return on investment is really looking at the outcome and
kindness, return on kindness, is really looking at the experience,
and I think that's a wonderful shift.
I'm curious, when you try to put in place and implement kindness as a practice,
kindness in your own work, what are some of the things you have found really help?
Is it taking time to just listen and be present?
Is it giving people extra autonomy?
What does kindness actually look like when it's operationalized in organizations?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: So for leaders, I actually put together a framework around
how to help leaders rise to kindness.
And kind leadership.
And it's an easy framework to remember because it spells out RISE.
So the R in rise is about role modeling.
So it really starts from the top, right?
It takes a leader who commits to being kind and role modeling the behaviors
that bring that kindness forward.
It's easy to be kind when things are going well in an organization,
but in times of stress, how are you really enacting that kindness and
showing compassionate for your people?
The I is about intentional flexibility.
We all have different challenges at different times, and at some point
it's gonna be the leader's challenge who needs support from the people.
So how can we show flexibility for our people?
And that's not just in, you know, working time, but it's also in workload.
It's also in caring for their mental health.
It's also in the flexibility in structure of the workday.
It touches on so many different aspects and there's so much leaders
can do there in terms of flexibility.
The S in rise is about supportive action.
Kindness is manifested in action.
So you could say that you're a kind leader all you want, but if people aren't
seeing that, are you really a kind leader?
So how can you support your people?
Could it be emotional support?
Could it be instrumental support, providing resources so that
they can get their job done?
A lot of times people get stuck not because of capability issues,
but it's more about resource or admin or red tape issues.
And then the E is about energy.
A leader's energy really carries so much weight.
A leader can enter a room and spread positive energy, or they
can spread negative energy, and that's just gonna affect your
people for the rest of the day.
So how can you use your energy to uplift your people?
Matt Abrahams: Thanks for helping all of us rise to the
occasion and be kinder leaders.
It strikes me that each one of those components in RISE helps also build
a psychologically safe environment.
An environment where people feel comfortable speaking up, being heard,
and maybe even taking risks, which we know from a tremendous amount
of research is all to the better.
Are there things that employees can do in their interactions?
Clearly you've delineated what a good leader can do, but if I'm
part of an organization that has kindness at its core, what are my
responsibilities as an employee?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yeah, so actually the RISE model, it's interesting
because the way we define leaders is not necessarily someone who holds a
position of authority, but leaders can be anyone in an organization, and in fact,
every single person in an organization should be showing leadership qualities.
So the RISE model absolutely applies to everyone in an organization.
So whether it's a team leader or a team member, thinking about how to
role model those behaviors that you want your team to also implement.
It's about thinking about how to be flexible with my team members in
workload and in the way that we interact.
It's about showing support and also bringing that energy to the team.
So the RISE model really has quite generalizable applications,
which I think makes it a lot more of a practical application.
Matt Abrahams: It seems to me that it puts a responsibility, a pleasurable
one often, to be supportive, to take the time to care, and that
helps people feel connected.
But it is something that we need to reinforce, and I think a leader can do
it, be it situational leader, authority based leader, whatever, but also all of
us can take the time to recognize success.
So thank you for that.
I feel bad 'cause I think this question might be unkind and that's
not what we're here for, but are there times where being kind at
work can put you at a disadvantage?
I can imagine that being kind and building this type of supportive
culture that you're talking about can slow down efficiency.
It can cause people to be so focused on the socio-emotional wellbeing
that things don't get done.
Is there a limit to kindness?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yeah, that's an interesting question.
Going back to the definition of kindness, we can also make a distinction
between kindness and niceness.
So if we think about leadership, right?
A nice leader is someone who does things because it's easy, right?
You want to be friends with your people.
You want to be the nice boss.
You wanna be the cool boss, the fun boss.
You want to please the majority, and that's going to ultimately cause you
to avoid making tough decisions or avoid tough conversations because you
don't wanna hurt people's feelings.
Kindness is different.
Kindness really embodies this aspect of toughness.
Because being a kind leader doesn't mean that you are letting things slide.
So can a kind leader also hold high expectations and high
standards of their people?
Absolutely.
Being a kind leader doesn't negate all the things that need
to get done in an organization.
And in fact, when you have kindness as the base or the foundation, it
actually allows leaders to hold these tough conversations with their people
because their people trust that they have their best interests at heart.
Matt Abrahams: I really like that distinction between niceness and kindness.
When I was first a manager, when I was an operator running organizations,
I so wanted people to like me that I really went outta my way to be nice.
And I was just taken advantage of, sometimes purposefully, sometimes not.
But I was miserable.
My boss called me over and her words were, you can be kind, but you
don't let people walk all over you.
And so I lived that definitional distinction that you just made.
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: It's almost like a curvilinear relationship, right?
So if your kindness is swinging too far to the point where you're getting to a
nice leadership position where people do walk all over you, then you perhaps have
to swing back a little bit more to embody the toughness that's part of the kindness.
Matt Abrahams: Yeah.
I think as a parent, we're often taught, and you read about this notion of, it's
not really tough love, but you have to be tough, you have to be firm, and from that
kindness can really have meaning, right?
If you're just nice, there's no deep part of that.
I wanna dig a little bit more.
You've made the distinction between being kind and being nice.
I have always thought of kindness and candor is almost opposites.
Where you know, we are in an interaction and I have something to say.
The polite thing to do, the kind thing to do might not be as
candid as perhaps I should be.
As a leader, as a peer, we have to give feedback.
We have to sometimes challenge people.
What advice and guidance do you have about how to be candid
and direct, but also be kind?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: So I think, again, going back to the definition where kind
leadership is really embodied within this aspect of toughness, I think the
candor comes into play because being a kind leader doesn't mean that you're not
giving honest and direct feedback because that's actually something that can be
constructive and valuable for your people.
And I think authenticity really plays a key role here.
That, as well as intentionality.
If a leader is really approaching these conversations with positive intent to,
the easy thing to do would be to ignore or to not have these conversations.
I have better things to do with my time, but to really take that time and put into
development with your people, and the way that you say it, of course, matters, the
framing, but if you're telling people with kindness as the underlying through point,
I think that message is better received.
Matt Abrahams: I wanna come back to the framing and the actual
communication 'cause as you know, and everybody listening knows,
that's really important to me.
But I wanna really emphasize that point, that being kind is being truthful and
being kind is being candid because you are trying to help the person, or the team,
or the company be the best that it can be.
And one of those charges is to, in a kind way, be very direct,
and I appreciate that distinction.
Let's talk a little bit about the communication of kindness.
Are there things, frameworks, approaches that you have seen in your research
or your own personal experience that helps people communicate kindly?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: I think one thing for leaders to do is around active
listening, but for some individuals, I think maybe for newer generations
it's an abstract concept because they grew up on their phones and so
they haven't had that practice of learning social communication skills.
So I actually ran this with my students, an active listening exercise.
They only had to do it for three minutes, where they engage with an
interaction partner, and they had to show that they are actively listening.
And it completely surprised them that it's not a passive activity, right?
So active listening is really about asking questions, showing that you
are attentive through your nonverbals.
It's about empathizing, it's about clarifying your assumptions or
even repeating back what you hear.
And so the feedback I was getting from the students was, it was really
difficult, especially if you're, you know, listening to something that
you're not particularly interested in.
But when we bring that back to the workplace and think about leaders,
there's a lot that they can do in terms of mindful connection between them
and their individual team members.
Just being there, being in the moment and being present with your conversation
partner, really shows, I think, the intent around, I'm here with you now.
You have my attention.
Let's talk about what's bothering you, and let's talk about how I can help.
Matt Abrahams: There's a directness to the kind communication you're talking
about that I think is really important.
I think a lot of people think kind communication is softer or
is more ambiguous, and in fact, what I hear you saying, is that
there's a directness to it.
Get the bottom line up there, make it clear.
But what I really find interesting is when I asked you, are there things that
we can do to communicate better, the very first thing you said is listening.
And it strikes me that empathy, kindness, being present are really important, and
I'm curious to get your thought on this.
What really struck me as you were speaking is that tone matters, how
you say it, the tone you inflect.
I can say something very sternly, very directly, that comes from a
place of kindness and compassion.
But if I say it in a tone that mirrors that value, I think
it goes down much better.
What do you think about the role of tone in kindness?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: I'm glad you brought that up.
Super important.
And I think feedback about your tone being something that's negative or
comes across as negative and isn't conveying kind of your positive intent,
it's something we can practice, right?
Just like we practice giving speeches and presentations, and tone could
be something that we really work on.
Just like we can work on the speed, the framing, and the
messaging of our communication.
Matt Abrahams: There's a really interesting technique we teach and
it has a lot of research on it.
It comes from the world of acting, which is really, if you think to yourself
about the tone and the emotion you want to have, by reflecting on an experience
that you've had where that was present, and you recall that before you have
a significant communication, you're much more likely to embody that tone.
So if I am going to give you some constructive feedback, but I wanna
come from a place of kindness, I might remind myself of a time where
somebody did that to me or I did that to them, and that puts me in that mode.
Tone is one of those things that when we're stressed, when we're
under pressure, goes out the window.
So really focusing on it, I think makes sense.
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yeah, exactly.
Just to add to that.
Being able to pause if you are really heated up or something
is really triggering you.
I think a lot of times people feel the pressure to fill in
these gaps or these silences, and so they speak without thinking.
And again, that goes back to the listening, why listening is the probably
most important skill for a leader.
But don't be afraid to pause, right?
Or say, I need a minute.
I just need to process.
I need to think about this.
Let me get back to you.
Matt Abrahams: I wanna go back to building culture of kindness, and you
shared a lot of what the attributes are.
I'm curious to get your thoughts about the actual building of it.
It seems to me that it starts before somebody actually gets employed.
It's part of the interview process.
You're talking about it, you're assessing it, you're demonstrating it.
Are there other ways that people can go about building a culture of
kindness, and then I'm gonna add a maybe even more challenging issue.
How do you transition into a culture of kindness when
perhaps you're not part of one?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: So in the book, I actually unpack a four step
process to building kind cultures.
Cultures have to be designed intentionally from the top, otherwise
it's never going to trickle down.
It's never gonna scale across the organization.
So it's about starting with a values refresh.
Whatever your company's values are, where it's written on the website or
written on company walls, how are you bringing that kindness forward in action.
If people aren't seeing kindness or a related word in action every
day, especially from leaders, they're never gonna believe
that's one of our culture words.
Matt Abrahams: So it's not just a poster that says be kind.
It's the action.
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Exactly.
And then you mentioned interviews.
This should be something that the interviewer is screaming
from the rooftops, right?
That this is our culture.
We don't tolerate unkindness.
And then the storytelling aspect of it, it's not just saying that
we have a culture of kindness, but really shining examples of how that
kindness has been manifested through different avenues, different channels.
Matt Abrahams: That's really powerful.
Were there other steps in that process?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: One other one, which is really actioning kindness.
So again, from the top, how are you building kindness into your metrics?
How are you making sure that kindness is protected?
A positive kind culture should be protected at all costs.
So how are you dealing with those unkind high performers, right?
The way that companies deal with these types of individuals speaks
volumes about what they prioritize.
And unfortunately, as we see, too many organizations value one over the other.
Matt Abrahams: That notion of protecting kindness is one that stands out to me.
What are some ways you have seen or you advise that people protect kindness?
I can imagine, I'm a big fan and I learned this from my kids' kindergarten
teachers, rewarding the positive.
So one way to protect it is to really highlight and reward acts of kindness, but
what are some ways to protect kindness?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Yeah, so that's one.
Rewarding kindness is probably the easy one, but you need consistency.
And when you think about how kindness starts from the top and
it really needs to be leader led, how is your company thinking about,
for example, succession planning?
Are you targeting individuals that embody kindness and would bring that
to life in the succession plan, or are you really prioritizing individuals who
are maybe high performers, but unkind.
That signals a lot to the organization.
Matt Abrahams: I was very fortunate to interview world famous women's
basketball coach, Tara VanDerveer.
She's emeritus at Stanford now, and she talked about one of the things
that was really important to her in her teams was not the number of point
scores or the number of wins won, but the kindness that the teammates had
towards each other and towards their opponents and towards the referees.
And taking that and showing it and really supporting and protecting
it was really important to her.
And I like that you're emphasizing that.
So before we end, I like to ask everybody three questions.
One I make up just for you, and two I've been asking everybody for a long time.
Are you up for that?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Sure.
Matt Abrahams: So you wrote this great book on kindness.
What do you hope is the key takeaway people have from the book?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: I would say the key takeaway would be to inspire
kindness, to inspire a movement around kindness, and to inspire communities
where people prioritize kindness as the number one important thing.
And on a day-to-day basis, that could be something also that
people take away with them.
It's when you wake up every day and you are dreading going to work, how
can you make that experience a little bit more positive for your people?
Kindness also reciprocates.
It boomerangs back to you, and so when you are showing that kindness,
it will come back to you as well.
Matt Abrahams: I love this idea of a kindness boomerang.
It comes right back to you.
And again, emphasizing that kindness is a way of being.
It's not just that your company sets up volunteer opportunities in the community,
which is absolutely important, but it's the kindness that we show each
other in the day-to-day interaction.
So question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: There's too many to name here, but I will say
that some qualities of communicators that I admire is storytelling.
Someone who's able to really bring the picture to life, make
something very vivid, and convey a message through a story.
I think it's so powerful, but that doesn't mean that we all have to
be fantastic storytellers, but I think underlying storytelling is
really this notion of authenticity.
So authentic communicators, they don't have to be perfect storytellers.
They don't have to be perfect in their speech, but someone who
really speaks from the heart, I think that's quite transformative.
Matt Abrahams: I'm not surprised that somebody who studies kindness would
be talking about speaking from the heart, being authentic, being able
to connect to people through story.
Thank you.
Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a
successful communication recipe?
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: I would say curiosity, assuming
positive intent, and trust.
Matt Abrahams: Trust, assuming positive intent, and curiosity.
Three really powerful ingredients, and I like this idea of
assuming positive intent.
A lot of us set up acrimony, challenge, conflict because we assume the other
person doesn't have that good intent.
Well, I appreciate you sharing good intent with all of us and challenging us
all to rise to the occasion of kindness.
And really helping us change the metrics for how we work.
It's about return on kindness, not just return on investment.
Bonnie, thank you so much for joining me here in Hong Kong
and for sharing your wisdom.
Bonnie Hayden Cheng: Thank you for having me.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of
Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about how to establish a productive work culture, please
listen to episode 93 with Celine Teoh and episode 132 with Amy Edmondson.
This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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